We don't want US troops in my country!

[close_guantanamo]

Hi,
I live in Germany, very close to the Coleman Barracks in Mannheim, where the US military have their only official prison in Germany. You know, a few years ago, I really liked the USA. I thought it's maybe not as nice as Germany, but a free constitutional democracy where people can feel safe. A country which adheres to international treaties and behaves civilized like all other western countries. When the first pictures of Abu Graib came, I was shocked and appalled, but I still believed it's just some bad apples. But the more reports and pictures came, and when I learned about the Auschwitz-like horrible torture camp Guantanamo, the more I realized that's it's not more than some bad apples. I realized the USA don't give a shit for human rights or democracy and uses torture regularly to get what they want. Now I despise the US-government and their military. And I do hate the soldiers who actually did it with all my heart. And thinking of the Arab prisoners who were kidnapped by US troops and taken to the Coleman Barracks to be tortured too (like the German prosecution found out), I feel like throwing up. Each time I pass that gruesome place, I almost cry thinking of those poor prisoners these animals are mistreating now. Now, when I see the US-flag which stands for torture, war and inhumanity, I feel deeply appalled. When I see it burn on TV, I feel satisfaction. I can't wait for the day your troops leave my country. You're not welcome here. Shame on you and all US troops, because every one of you who stays in a military that acts against human rights and commits the most horrible atrocities, is guilty too. I pray that Jesus will punish you all. Shame on you.
Regina Freitag

[Mysykt]

Wow! Bitter much? Saying that ALL US military personell are bad is the same as saying all Germans supported Hitler until the Allied forces came in to save your butts. Get a grip! We only bite back once we have been attacked... and as far as human rights violations go... why don't you look at your own country's history before judging mine.

[SgtMac6]

And how many people did Germany kill,torture,maim,rape and do experimental surgries on? Seems like the only reason you have the right to sound off is because we saved your A.. Thanks for your support, this American will remember.

[milligal]

Does a country's treatment of the civil rights of prisoners during war represent that country's role in civil rights in every area?

Admittedly, our nation finds controversy internationally regarding the treatment of prisoners. It is easy to lash back at your statement and recall the history of Germany, however those outside the US would do well to realize that a country's military action during a time of war does not represent that country's stand on civil rights in the free world.

America has always stood for civil rights and has promoted the rights of those who have been oppressed throughout history. With that being said, it is fare to go further and say that many Americans oppose the treatment of prisoners in the instances you have quoted. No country is perfect-as you find imperfections in your own country's past, it is what we try to be, what we aspire to be that dictates our reputation on the world scene.

I am proud of my country for providing freedom and pursuit of happiness that has yet to be replicated by any other country in the world.

[WilleyeBMarine?]

Tell your Army not to say hateful gestures about African- American males. Take care of your Army first, we're not going to do it again. By the way, you just probably made 10 people want to join the Army.

[Measure Man]

Hi,
I live in Germany, very close to the Coleman Barracks in Mannheim, where the US military have their only official prison in Germany. You know, a few years ago, I really liked the USA. I thought it's maybe not as nice as Germany, but a free constitutional democracy where people can feel safe. A country which adheres to international treaties and behaves civilized like all other western countries. When the first pictures of Abu Graib came, I was shocked and appalled, but I still believed it's just some bad apples. But the more reports and pictures came, and when I learned about the Auschwitz-like horrible torture camp Guantanamo, the more I realized that's it's not more than some bad apples. I realized the USA don't give a shit for human rights or democracy and uses torture regularly to get what they want. Now I despise the US-government and their military. And I do hate the soldiers who actually did it with all my heart. And thinking of the Arab prisoners who were kidnapped by US troops and taken to the Coleman Barracks to be tortured too (like the German prosecution found out), I feel like throwing up. Each time I pass that gruesome place, I almost cry thinking of those poor prisoners these animals are mistreating now. Now, when I see the US-flag which stands for torture, war and inhumanity, I feel deeply appalled. When I see it burn on TV, I feel satisfaction. I can't wait for the day your troops leave my country. You're not welcome here. Shame on you and all US troops, because every one of you who stays in a military that acts against human rights and commits the most horrible atrocities, is guilty too. I pray that Jesus will punish you all. Shame on you.
Regina Freitag


Frau Freitag,

Americans are equally appalled. How do you think you learned of these places? it is Americans that exposed these atrocities. Americans that investigated. American's that prosecuted the guilty. The US Flag stands for liberty, justice and freedom for all. Most other countries would have simply denied the accusations internationally and tried to cover it up.

It is the greatness of America that can continue to stand because we are not afraid to publicize our own shortcomings and commit to repairing the harm. Perhaps you would prefer to have an opressed media that would only report good news about it's government so you could sleep better at night in not knowing of atrocities...but that is not what we do. This is the reason for one of our basic rights called "Freedom of the Press"...was to be able to feely criticize the government. Many don't have that.

War is ugly business...and a lot of ugliness comes of it. Yes, decent people are appalled as they should be...but this type of activity is absolutely not what our country stands for, which is evidenced by our prosecution of the offenders. Believe that.

Most of us stay in the military to continue to fight for freedom, liberty and justice. If those of us who stood for civil rights left the military...who would be remaining? Then you might really have what you claim is the case...so how dare you pray for punishment on those willing to stay and contribute...pray for the victory of the thousands of committed Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines who believe in freedom and human rights.

How dare you! You really should be ashamed of yourself. Your heart bleeds for the "innocent" Arabs, but you condemn the innocent Americans. Shame on you!

[ibanezrg520kid]

[QUOTE=close_guantanamo;47287I pray that Jesus will punish you all. Shame on you.
Regina Freitag[/QUOTE]

typical hypocritial religious person *rollseyes* if you truely believe in jesus, you would be the want at the blunt end of the stick in this situation. idk what bible you are reading, but it must have been written by and idiot like yourself.

PS. thanks germany for the nickname Devil Dog, the marines really like it!!

you know, i spent some time living in germany, and i met more racists and more people who discriminate then i have ever met in america. I met people who were more vulgar and shouted extremely rude sexual things at my twin little sisters (14 at the time) and my girlfriend who was a latin girl who grew up in germany. it happened more in my time in germany than it has ever happened here in the US. i met more pepole who discriminate against religion then i have ever met here in the states. BUT YOU KNOW WHAT? i'm not going online critizing a group as a whole for a MINORITIES actions. you act like EVERYONE is doing these atrocities, but they aren't. you are close minded and will not look at the bigger picture. now, maybe i should go around and start bad mouthing every german... but then i'd just be stooping to your level, and i carry myself with more pride then that.

[TJMAC77SP]

This one smells of a 'granade over the wall' posting. Say something sure to get everyone hopping mad and sit back and watch.................amazing what some people find entertaining. There are so many references regarding Germany's long history of mass violence that this thread could go on forever.

[bowenj10]

As I said in my previous post. This was solely intended to piss people off and get them firing back...

While I agree with you that it probably was a troll and that it was posted as a piece to incite anger, I can't help but be astounded at the vacuous responses. American history should be taught at every level in elementary and secondary schools in our country. It should also be a part of every training day in the military. That people don't realize that our country has been responsible for some of the worst crimes against humanity in recent history amazes me. That military members don't know about military history amazes me even more. I would certainly suggest that some of the members of this website go to their local library and pick up a book once in a while.

[ames]

ok, I'm not really sure what the government and the troops decsions are...or at least all of them. But I do know this. Americans do not agree with EVERY decision the government and the military makes. Therefore, not all areas are the same. This is exactly why we are fighting now. No one knows how to get along because every one loves to throw fighting words. Please do not take part in this..you are only adding to the choas that already exists.

[bowenj10]

I certainly have no intentions of defending the OP's viewpoints. My point was that there seems to be a high level of ignorance of American history among the people who frequent these boards. If someone wants to oppose a viewpoint, however absurd and offensive it may be, they should do so by using facts and logic rather than ignorance and emotion. An opposing argument will be much more convincing when based upon facts and logic and far easier to discredit when based upon ignorance and emotion.

But, for the sake of helping to kill this thread, I will make this my last post here.

[ames]

-bowen
I'm sorry...my post wasn't directed towards you. It was for the guy who had originally posted here...and for the ones who were fighting back with him/her. :) Sorry, I'm new here..>I should have made that clearer.

[duder]

Wow, this reminds me of Charles DeGualle telling Eisenhower he wanted all American troops out of France after WWII. Ike's response? "It will take a while to dig up the bodies."

[Chateauroux]

Say want you want about Charles DeGualle, duder BUT unlike the Monkey, he knew a losing war when he had one on his hands. He ended the quagmire in Algeria that was bleeding France white. He also run the American military out of France, closing their bases in the early 60s. I always liked Charlie. ;)

[maggiemayk]

germans like that make me mad. they had no problem while we were rebuilding their country with our money, while their women marry our troops just to get into america or killing thousands of Jewish persons.
so that is just fine how about we believe that all germans are evil and should be put to death due to the atrocities committed by your countryman named "HITLER".
lastly never accuse an american soldier of anything until you have walked a mile in his shoes, walked in the desert sand like him (her), protected a country where the citizens would rather kill them than accept their help. i spent 2 yrs living in your country and was given dirty looks and told to go home more times than i care to remember. yet when ou marry our men and come here you are treated as an equal and smiled at and welcomed.
SHAME ON YOU!! get into reality and think of what the prisoners have done to the USA to piss off the soldier.

[TJMAC77SP]

Say want you want about Charles DeGualle, duder BUT unlike the Monkey, he knew a losing war when he had one on his hands. He ended the quagmire in Algeria that was bleeding France white. He also run the American military out of France, closing their bases in the early 60s. I always liked Charlie. ;)

I don't speak French so can you tell me what Chateauroux means in French?

[Myers11bTOG]

This is obviously intended to get responses. But the fact that the author would stoop to insulting every aspect that we hold dear is just going to far. i would advise Regina Freitag to do some research and stop judging an entire nation based on a few things she saw in the media. Also keep in mind that these prisoners are people who are responsible for for the murder of thousands of American people. those that don't serve on the front and see the IEDs killing their friends and fellow soldiers should really keep their simple minded ignorant opinions to themselves lest they be set strait and their overactive emotions hurt.

[Mrs_SFC_Piteo]

If we are all aware that this message's intent was to provoke a response, why are we humoring this hypocrisy? You know what we stand for, I know what we stand for, so why should someone's ignorance bother us so much? This world is full of people who choose not to educate themselves. Nothing you or I can say will make these people open their eyes, a newspaper, or a book. Let them live in their "ignorance is bliss" life. We KNOW who we are!

[oh come on now]

Sounds like you succeeded in getting a lot of people worked up over your posting. It is your opinion and your perrogative to think and say what you want regarding the US. I do think though that if you read some of the previous replies to your posting with less emotion, you may find that some of what they're saying makes sense. Maybe not, but I honestly think your rationalizations are too emotional to be logical. While it is a shame that sometimes innocent people suffer, no war is pretty...not in history...not now. While it is good to have passion over what you believe, you want to make sure you can tell a distinction between that and being a closed minded radical. Hardening your heart towards an entire nation is a big personal conviction.

[jay_ellis04]

Well, if your grandfather had been a better man, we wouldn't be there. If 60 years ago, you hadn't raped, pillaged, tortured and burned the majority of Europe, we wouldn't be there.

[OGMIDDRIDER]

I see what you think. If you are correct, then Germany needs to defend and provide all of its own OIL/COAL needs domestically. Or, if you need foreign oil, defend that supply via UN or International Treaties-sanctions via "NO STRONG ARM ACTIONS". Get my meaning?

Shame on you. Jesus is not your lackey. Do you own dirt work. You may have lived in isolation too long, I was born before D-Day. If you do not know this expression, go look it up.

In 1935 U.S. Congress Peanut head politicians (the U.S. Congress was full of these guys that thought that the Ocean was "big enough to keep war away) and the remainder of the world was even more polluted with peanut heads all causing WW2. Years before 1944 the politicians said "we will use negotiation" to settle our differences. Thousands of Americans died on the Normandy beaches that day, all because politicians did not and do not today understand that War Fighting (the result of simple minded politicians failures) is about killing. So, failed negotiations always leads to brutal killing. Or, the second alternative is "do without oil".

Our foreign dependance on oil is nothing compared to where the World will be if some dictator blackmails me over food (because my nation converted food production over to energy production $$-green). People may go without oil for weeks. People can not go long without food. Especially the children.

Look at the U.N's "sanctions and the Oil-for-Food deal on Iraq before March 2003. World-Politicians vision of problem solving. What a joke. All this did was make a few rich, and many dead Iraq children because the lack of proper food and medicine. The Iraq dictator at the time thought more of his "palace construction" then the children of his country. How do sanctions fix any problem without hurting those that are unable to defend themselves?? Look at North Korea. This is always the course of sanctions. And today right here in the United States of America, polititions are saying "more sanctions and less war".

All in all, have a nice day.

[fenway]

first of all American elected Obama ( I didn't vote for him) but that would never happen in germany

a flag and soldiers are just a part of the country not the end all. By the reasoning of the poster, I could say that all germans are Nazi's ... forever.

also, If Europe gets serious about security we might not be paranoid

[Cajun's Girl]

Wow I never seen this thread before, what the hell!

Righto, point being that you can't judge a country by the actions of a few from that country. We could all find a reason to hate another country in that case. It is just silly to hate a country based on a few idiots that make the news.

[TJMAC77SP]

Come on folks this thread is pretty old and it was a grenade (http://www.militarytimes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=48745&postcount=8)to begin with...............

[Bruce]

I wonder if the original poster, Rita, is old enough to remember the West German government's reaction to the Red Army Faction during the 1970s, and how "humanely" it responded to terrorism. I speak of the hijacking of Lufthansa Flight 181 in 1977 by four Arab terrorists who demanded, among other things, the release of 11 Red Army Faction terrorists in German jails. In the end, West German commandos attacked the hijacked airliner, killing all of the hijackers. By the next morning, it was reported that 3 of the 11 prisoners had committed suicide. Red Army Faction leader Andreas Baader died of a "self-inflicted" gunshot wound to the back of his head. Gudrun Ensellin was found hanged in his cell. Jan-Carl Raspe also suffered from a "self-inflicted gunshot" wound from which he died the next day. A fourth prisoner, Irmgard Möller, survived four stab wounds near her heart, also as part of a suicide strategy, according to the Government. Möller claimed that her suicide "attempt" and the deaths of the others were extra-judicial punishment by the West German government in response to the hijacking and a related kidnapping. Her explanation is plausible: how could these people have had access to guns and knives in jail? How does someone stab themselves near the heart four times? Some might say that America's prosecution of the war on terrorism should have been as nasty as that of the West Germans. Ultimately, I think that the days of U.S. torture of terrorist suspects, if it ever happened, is over. As for the Germans ... well, who knows?

[becca72]

Hi,
I live in Germany, very close to the Coleman Barracks in Mannheim, where the US military have their only official prison in Germany. You know, a few years ago, I really liked the USA. I thought it's maybe not as nice as Germany, but a free constitutional democracy where people can feel safe. A country which adheres to international treaties and behaves civilized like all other western countries. When the first pictures of Abu Graib came, I was shocked and appalled, but I still believed it's just some bad apples. But the more reports and pictures came, and when I learned about the Auschwitz-like horrible torture camp Guantanamo, the more I realized that's it's not more than some bad apples. I realized the USA don't give a shit for human rights or democracy and uses torture regularly to get what they want. Now I despise the US-government and their military. And I do hate the soldiers who actually did it with all my heart. And thinking of the Arab prisoners who were kidnapped by US troops and taken to the Coleman Barracks to be tortured too (like the German prosecution found out), I feel like throwing up. Each time I pass that gruesome place, I almost cry thinking of those poor prisoners these animals are mistreating now. Now, when I see the US-flag which stands for torture, war and inhumanity, I feel deeply appalled. When I see it burn on TV, I feel satisfaction. I can't wait for the day your troops leave my country. You're not welcome here. Shame on you and all US troops, because every one of you who stays in a military that acts against human rights and commits the most horrible atrocities, is guilty too. I pray that Jesus will punish you all. Shame on you.
Regina Freitag


This post and others after are somewhat disturbing.
The reality is that EVERY COUNTRY has things in their history that they wish they could change or could have done differently. GERMANY, my dear niave blogger, is certainly at the top of the list. So the next time you bash a nation for its past sins, please do your due dilligence and pause for a moment. Remember the millions of JEWS that your nation tortured, raped, murdered and killed for NO REASON other than the fact that they were JEWS. For you to rant and rave about the "horrible atrocities" that you say "ALL US TROOPS" who stay in the military take part in, is purely ignorant. It is the pot calling the kettle black, plain and simple. So the next time you run your mouth about something as clearly hypocritical as this, do everyone a favor and keep it closed.
The US has done some awful things and as a US citizens and military person, I admonish those acts and if found guilty the appropriate people should be held accountable, absolutely! But because my husband wears his uniform proudly and because I did doesnt give you the right to assume we are horrible people.

Your a German citizen, should I look at you and assume your a Nazi?
Think before you post next time!

[NeWSoldiEr08]

Hi,
I live in Germany, very close to the Coleman Barracks in Mannheim, where the US military have their only official prison in Germany. You know, a few years ago, I really liked the USA. I thought it's maybe not as nice as Germany, but a free constitutional democracy where people can feel safe. A country which adheres to international treaties and behaves civilized like all other western countries. When the first pictures of Abu Graib came, I was shocked and appalled, but I still believed it's just some bad apples. But the more reports and pictures came, and when I learned about the Auschwitz-like horrible torture camp Guantanamo, the more I realized that's it's not more than some bad apples. I realized the USA don't give a shit for human rights or democracy and uses torture regularly to get what they want. Now I despise the US-government and their military. And I do hate the soldiers who actually did it with all my heart. And thinking of the Arab prisoners who were kidnapped by US troops and taken to the Coleman Barracks to be tortured too (like the German prosecution found out), I feel like throwing up. Each time I pass that gruesome place, I almost cry thinking of those poor prisoners these animals are mistreating now. Now, when I see the US-flag which stands for torture, war and inhumanity, I feel deeply appalled. When I see it burn on TV, I feel satisfaction. I can't wait for the day your troops leave my country. You're not welcome here. Shame on you and all US troops, because every one of you who stays in a military that acts against human rights and commits the most horrible atrocities, is guilty too. I pray that Jesus will punish you all. Shame on you.
Regina Freitag

:::runbs hands together:::

Everytime i read a history book (and believe me i love history) your country sticks out as the most brutal hateful country of all time, maybe not now..but you have a history everytime i think german i think death and mayhem now, maybe JUST MAYBE if your history would have not been so vile you wouldnt have US troops to deal with in the first place, but since one of your former leaders bungie jumped off the deep end you have our troops in your country because we the british and the russians saved your ass. so deal with it, as far as torture, you are wrong there are bad apples the entire military isnt like that, and kidnapping innocent arabs??? LOL!!!! i wont even dive into that shit

[becca72]

LOL....exactly.... ;)
What else is there to do ....lol

[Smeghead]

Everytime i read a history book (and believe me i love history) your country sticks out as the most brutal hateful country of all time, maybe not now..but you have a history everytime i think german i think death and mayhem

Actually, I think Britain holds that title.

[TJMAC77SP]

god for bid i pay attention to original post dates..if its still being posted in its still an active thread :rolleyes:

As I said, that is cool but you are holding a debate where one party has left the building. Have at it.

[DDNIGHT]

You guys are wasting your time:

----------------------------------------------------------

PROFILE INFO FOR "close_guantanamo"

Join Date: 05-31-2007
PostsTotal Posts: 1 (0.00 posts per day)

---------------------------------------------------------

Just a frickin' loser blowing off steam......damn Nazis....

[TheHarleyMan2]

Hey maybe I HAVE a SOLUTION, Why don't YOUR NATIONALS as well as OTHER FOREIGN NATIONALS, and ILLEGALS GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY AND QUIT GETTING HANDOUTS THAT MY TAX DOLLARS and MY GOVERNMENT PAY FOR!

If I was President I would get rid of WELFARE, I would pass a LAW MAKING IT MANDATORY for EVERY LEGAL AMERICAN to OWN at least 5 guns with PLENTY OF AMMO, I WOULD MAKE IT LEGAL TO CARRY ANYWHERE, I WOULD SEAL OFF THE BORDERS, I WOULDN'T TAKE SH!T FROM ANY COUNTRY MUCH LESS GIVE IN TO THEM! I would use the money for the STIMULUS PLAN and OTHER FUNDS going to build and support OTHER foreign countries and use that money to GIVE EACH HARD WORKING AMERICAN between the ages of 25 and 60 years of age $150,000.00 each to pay their bills, etc and it would put money back into our OWN ECONOMY! Plus, I WOULD SEVERILY PENILIZE, (SHUT THEM DOWN and BOYCOT THEM from bringing their products into the USA) ANY CORPORATION who would move their plants outside the USA and HIRE ILLEGALS to work for them!
We NEED THIS TO HAPPEN TO SAVE THE USA, the economy, and the AMERICAN PEOPLE!

[Jaimie809]

Uh, excuse me, i dont know why im taking this to heart, but im an AMERICAN soldier, and so was my father, and for you the have the audacity to even say we are heartless ANIMALS, just upsets me. Im not pointing fingers and trying to start anything but lets see here, wasn't it the GERMANS who were awful to the Jews, but i mean, whatever, that was the PAST, right? It should MATTER?? well this matters to me, this thread should be deleted how DARE you insult Americans and their Troops when we have people dying everyday, and familes torn apart everyday because we were ATTACKED on our own soil. So dont you DARE even insult us and think you wont catch hell for it, all i can say is God have Mercey on your soul for the words you said, and Shame on you!

[Silver Fox]

Sensationalist crap.

Abu Ghraib and Gitmo have been responsible for some bad things, it's disney land compared to your country's concentration camps that slaughtered 6 million people.

Let's keep it in perspective, ok?

And you saying every American soldier is responsible for Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib abuse is like saying every German soldier is responsible for the Holocaust.

Back to the drawing board for you.

[eichampt1]

Hi,
I live in Germany, very close to the Coleman Barracks in Mannheim, where the US military have their only official prison in Germany. You know, a few years ago, I really liked the USA. I thought it's maybe not as nice as Germany, but a free constitutional democracy where people can feel safe. A country which adheres to international treaties and behaves civilized like all other western countries. When the first pictures of Abu Graib came, I was shocked and appalled, but I still believed it's just some bad apples. But the more reports and pictures came, and when I learned about the Auschwitz-like horrible torture camp Guantanamo, the more I realized that's it's not more than some bad apples. I realized the USA don't give a shit for human rights or democracy and uses torture regularly to get what they want. Now I despise the US-government and their military. And I do hate the soldiers who actually did it with all my heart. And thinking of the Arab prisoners who were kidnapped by US troops and taken to the Coleman Barracks to be tortured too (like the German prosecution found out), I feel like throwing up. Each time I pass that gruesome place, I almost cry thinking of those poor prisoners these animals are mistreating now. Now, when I see the US-flag which stands for torture, war and inhumanity, I feel deeply appalled. When I see it burn on TV, I feel satisfaction. I can't wait for the day your troops leave my country. You're not welcome here. Shame on you and all US troops, because every one of you who stays in a military that acts against human rights and commits the most horrible atrocities, is guilty too. I pray that Jesus will punish you all. Shame on you.
Regina Freitag

Do you mean like DACHAU, BIRKENWALD, AUSCHWITZ, ETC, ETC.....? Have we killed 6 million people yet?

[eichampt1]

Do you mean like DACHAU, BIRKENWALD, AUSCHWITZ, ETC, ETC.....? Have we killed 6 million people yet?

Sorry, that's Buchenwald and... Dachau, Sachsenhausen, Buchenwald, Flossenbürg, Mauthausen, and Ravensbrück, Belzec, Majdanek, Sobibor, Treblinka, and Auschwitz-Birkenau.

[TJMAC77SP]

Talking to the black ether.

OP long gone

[Mustang 16]

Who actually is 'Regina Freitag'?? Certainly not a person who represents the opinion of the vast majority of Germans, perhaps not even a person with that particular name and/or not even a german citizen...
For first 30 years of my life I lived in the vicinity of the US Coleman Barracks in Sandhofen. Now I'm 61 and very often I lean back remembering with joy the good old times my fellow german friends and I spent with those GIs who brought lots of fun and an exciting new spirit into our country. Sadly, most American US bases in Germany are now abandoned, the exciting spirit of the Americans however remains....
Take my word - Americans are our Friends and no rotten commie can spoil that!!

[Joe Bonham]

Who actually is 'Regina Freitag'?? Certainly not a person who represents the opinion of the vast majority of Germans, perhaps not even a person with that particular name and/or not even a german citizen...
For first 30 years of my life I lived in the vicinity of the US Coleman Barracks in Sandhofen. Now I'm 61 and very often I lean back remembering with joy the good old times my fellow german friends and I spent with those GIs who brought lots of fun and an exciting new spirit into our country. Sadly, most American US bases in Germany are now abandoned, the exciting spirit of the Americans however remains....
Take my word - Americans are our Friends and no rotten commie can spoil that!!

I'm sure you're right - however - bear in mind with the War on Terror, a lot of that has changed. Our invasions are deeply unpopular in much of the world, particularly in Europe, where human rights are considered very important.

I remember on my first deployment we stopped in Shannon Airport, Ireland. Our plane to Kyrgistan was delayed, so the whole company was loaded up on buses and taken to a local airport. Our movements were very restricted, we couldn't leave the building - and we were warned to avoid contact with the natives - apparently there is a very large anti-war movement in Ireland, and they deeply resent being a stepping stone for the American War effort. Being part-Irish, this saddens me. I would have loved to explore my "roots" a bit - and I find it very disheartening that our actions have alienated them so badly.

That was the first time I started to question the morality of the War on Terror. Would not be the last.

[Shrike]

Y'all realize this thread has been dormant for almost three years, right?

[Pullinteeth]

I'm sure you're right - however - bear in mind with the War on Terror, a lot of that has changed. Our invasions are deeply unpopular in much of the world, particularly in Europe, where human rights are considered very important.

I- apparently there is a very large anti-war movement in Ireland, and they deeply resent being a stepping stone for the American War effort.

Might want to do some factchecking next time...I know it is a completely alien concept but...They weren't "our invasions" and quite a few European countires were actively involved;
United Kingdon
Romania
Estonia
Bulgaria
Moldova
Albania
Ukraine
Denmark
Czech Republic
Bosnia and Hertegovina
Macedonia
Latvia
Poland
Iceland
Spain
Portugal
Netherlands
Hungary
Norway
Italy
Slovakia
Lithuania
Germany
France
Turkey
Croatia
Greece
Luxembourg
Slovenia
Finland
Montenegro
SWITZERLAND
and.....IRELAND

Again, don't let those pesky facts get in the way of your stance...

[Mustang 16]

---Quote (Originally by Joe Bonham)---
I'm sure you're right - however - bear in mind with the War on Terror, a lot of that has changed. Our invasions are deeply unpopular in much of the world, particularly in Europe, where human rights are considered very important.

I remember on my first deployment we stopped in Shannon Airport, Ireland. Our plane to Kyrgistan was delayed, so the whole company was loaded up on buses and taken to a local airport. Our movements were very restricted, we couldn't leave the building - and we were warned to avoid contact with the natives - apparently there is a very large anti-war movement in Ireland, and they deeply resent being a stepping stone for the American War effort. Being part-Irish, this saddens me. I would have loved to explore my "roots" a bit - and I find it very disheartening that our actions have alienated them so badly.

That was the first time I started to question the morality of the War on Terror. Would not be the last.
---End Quote---

During my visits to friends in the USA, discussions concerning the war on terror were unavoidable. It is mind-boggling that Americans often try to equalize the successful liberation of my country (Germany), Japan or Korea with the recent attempts to put enduring freedom into Iraq and Afghanistan.
In my opinion it is very unlikely that the latter countries will ever adapt a reasonable way of life. All what happens is that one ruling corruptive bone head is getting replaced by another one of the same kind while the precious life of allied soldiers is put to an end by fanatic cowards who wear a belt of bombs under cover. The alternative to the present practice of war on terror should derive from a certain altitude. Whoever harbors terrorism should be the target of a remote controlled transition to 'beautiful life after death' without our common sons losing their life in those desolate and hopeless parts of the earth (apart from the present costs of war on terror).
My wife and I wish a Merry Christmas and Good Luck to all those Brave Allied Soldiers on site who cannot physically share this peaceful event with their loved ones!!

[TJMAC77SP]

This may get the "Thread Resuscitation Award” for 2011

((and got it in just under the wire))

[Mustang 16]

Sorry folks, I found this thread on Google while searching for US Coleman Barracks veterans (8th Infantry Division) and -in my anger- didn't take notice that it was already a couple of years old. In any case I hope my last 2 messages were not in vain and touched the nerve of the people concerned..
I was just pissed off about that original 'Regina Freitag' comment that can ruin decades of good relationship between Germany and USA.

[Shrike]

Sorry folks, I found this thread on Google while searching for US Coleman Barracks veterans (8th Infantry Division) and -in my anger- didn't take notice that it was already a couple of years old. In any case I hope my last 2 messages were not in vain and touched the nerve of the people concerned..
I was just pissed off about that original 'Regina Freitag' comment that can ruin decades of good relationship between Germany and USA.

"Regina" was a troll. If you look at her post, it was made in May of 2007 and it was the only post she ever made here. That's a clear sign that she was just tossing an internet grenade. It was effective, though, as a lot of people responded.

[raider8169]

"Regina" was a troll. If you look at her post, it was made in May of 2007 and it was the only post she ever made here. That's a clear sign that she was just tossing an internet grenade. It was effective, though, as a lot of people responded.

It does start up a conversation which I thought was the whole point of a forum.

WWII was like 65 years ago, most of the people that has anything to do with it are long gone. Why is this still being held against Germany? The same thing could have and has happened to other countries. When a bad apple takes control of a country/military things like this happen. Further, remember the victors write the history books.

[Shrike]

It does start up a conversation which I thought was the whole point of a forum.

WWII was like 65 years ago, most of the people that has anything to do with it are long gone. Why is this still being held against Germany? The same thing could have and has happened to other countries. When a bad apple takes control of a country/military things like this happen. Further, remember the victors write the history books.

I was only trying to point out to Mustang16 that he is countering the post made by someone over five years ago. That is all.

[Joe Bonham]

Might want to do some factchecking next time...I know it is a completely alien concept but...They weren't "our invasions" and quite a few European countires were actively involved;
United Kingdon
Romania
Estonia
Bulgaria
Moldova
Albania
Ukraine
Denmark
Czech Republic
Bosnia and Hertegovina
Macedonia
Latvia
Poland
Iceland
Spain
Portugal
Netherlands
Hungary
Norway
Italy
Slovakia
Lithuania
Germany
France
Turkey
Croatia
Greece
Luxembourg
Slovenia
Finland
Montenegro
SWITZERLAND
and.....IRELAND

Again, don't let those pesky facts get in the way of your stance...

Before you go flying off the handle, you should do some fact checking of your own. Ireland did send a handful of troops to Afghanistan (120, down to 7 by 2011), none served a combat role. As for Iraq - Ireland adopted a position of neutrality. While the Iraq war in itself is controversial among the voters - what sparked the real outcry was suspicions that Shannon is being used by the American government to transport prisoners from the Middle East to be detained and tortured. So while some Irish politicians advocate barring the American military from Shannon altogether, others advocate at least inspecting the planes. The problem the Irish face is that the American traffic is a major economic boon to the beleagured Irish economy, barring us from Shannon would be a significant loss of revenue.

As a libertarian, I'm surprised you would assume the actions of a government automatically coincide with the will of the people. Even in the countries who participated in both wars, there is a significant and growing anti-war movement.



During my visits to friends in the USA, discussions concerning the war on terror were unavoidable. It is mind-boggling that Americans often try to equalize the successful liberation of my country (Germany), Japan or Korea with the recent attempts to put enduring freedom into Iraq and Afghanistan.
In my opinion it is very unlikely that the latter countries will ever adapt a reasonable way of life. All what happens is that one ruling corruptive bone head is getting replaced by another one of the same kind while the precious life of allied soldiers is put to an end by fanatic cowards who wear a belt of bombs under cover. The alternative to the present practice of war on terror should derive from a certain altitude. Whoever harbors terrorism should be the target of a remote controlled transition to 'beautiful life after death' without our common sons losing their life in those desolate and hopeless parts of the earth (apart from the present costs of war on terror).
My wife and I wish a Merry Christmas and Good Luck to all those Brave Allied Soldiers on site who cannot physically share this peaceful event with their loved ones!!

I agree on all counts. Though any two wars are going to have some similarities - there is really no comparison between WWII and the War on Terror. Hitler's Third Reich was an economic powerhouse that posed a REAL threat to the world. Whatever justification there was for our initial incursion into Afghanistan, none of the countries under American invasion pose any threat whatsoever, and the vast majority of the people killed, wounded, or detained had anything to do with 9/11.

I just hope this madness blows over soon, and our democratic process remains intact.

[Pullinteeth]

Before you go flying off the handle, you should do some fact checking of your own. Ireland did send a handful of troops to Afghanistan (120, down to 7 by 2011), none served a combat role. As for Iraq - Ireland adopted a position of neutrality. While the Iraq war in itself is controversial among the voters - what sparked the real outcry was suspicions that Shannon is being used by the American government to transport prisoners from the Middle East to be detained and tortured. So while some Irish politicians advocate barring the American military from Shannon altogether, others advocate at least inspecting the planes. The problem the Irish face is that the American traffic is a major economic boon to the beleagured Irish economy, barring us from Shannon would be a significant loss of revenue.

As a libertarian, I'm surprised you would assume the actions of a government automatically coincide with the will of the people. Even in the countries who participated in both wars, there is a significant and growing anti-war movement.



I agree on all counts. Though any two wars are going to have some similarities - there is really no comparison between WWII and the War on Terror. Hitler's Third Reich was an economic powerhouse that posed a REAL threat to the world. Whatever justification there was for our initial incursion into Afghanistan, none of the countries under American invasion pose any threat whatsoever, and the vast majority of the people killed, wounded, or detained had anything to do with 9/11.

I just hope this madness blows over soon, and our democratic process remains intact.

I knew I could count on you to not let facts get in your way. The FACT is that they weren't "our invasions" and while public sentiment may have turned in many nations, your assertation that we just unilatterally invaded against the wishes of all of Europe is patently false.

[Joe Bonham]

I knew I could count on you to not let facts get in your way. The FACT is that they weren't "our invasions"

In what way? We initiated them, did we not?


and while public sentiment may have turned in many nations, your assertation that we just unilatterally invaded against the wishes of all of Europe is patently false.

I never said we did. However, neither war would have happened without the US. Iraq in particular was very controversial right from the beginning. And it only got more so when our justification for invading turned out to be total BS.

[Pullinteeth]

In what way? We initiated them, did we not?


I never said we did. However, neither war would have happened without the US. Iraq in particular was very controversial right from the beginning. And it only got more so when our justification for invading turned out to be total BS.

We didn't act unilaterally did we? You said that they were opposed to OUR invasions. They weren't OUR invasions but yeah, they probably wouldn't have happened without us. I guess Bosnia was our fault too, and Kosovo, hell Uganda and Rawanda must be our fault too since we DIDN'T invade. Everything that goes wrong must be our fault in your world...if we act with the support of the international community=our fault, if we fail to act and so does the international community=our fault... Is ANYTHING not our fault? It is pretty easy to use the U.S. as the whipping boy but at some point don't you have to hold others accountable for their actions as well? They may have decided at a later date that it was a bad idea but they still did it...

[Joe Bonham]

We didn't act unilaterally did we? You said that they were opposed to OUR invasions. They weren't OUR invasions but yeah, they probably wouldn't have happened without us.

Neither would have happened without us. Afghanistan is understandable, as a response to 9/11. But Iraq was irrelevant. The only reason we attacked Iraq is because American Neo-cons wanted to attack Iraq - and Bush was a Christmas story come true.


I guess Bosnia was our fault too, and Kosovo, hell Uganda and Rawanda must be our fault too since we DIDN'T invade.

You're stretching and you know it. But weren't you the one who said Clinton is just as bad as Bush because we still have some guys hanging out in Kosovo? Logical comparisons don't seem to be your strongpoint.


Everything that goes wrong must be our fault in your world...if we act with the support of the international community=our fault, if we fail to act and so does the international community=our fault... Is ANYTHING not our fault? It is pretty easy to use the U.S. as the whipping boy but at some point don't you have to hold others accountable for their actions as well? They may have decided at a later date that it was a bad idea but they still did it...

Rant aside, I don't really get why you insist on defending our actions in Iraq. Our justifications were BS, a hundred thousand people are dead, a country is ruined, and tens of billions of dollars have been misspent or outright stolen. You're trying to say its not our fault because we lied to the international community and got some other countries (under false pretenses) to send troops to die on a bullshit wild goose chase? Ridiculous.

[Pullinteeth]

Neither would have happened without us. Afghanistan is understandable, as a response to 9/11. But Iraq was irrelevant. The only reason we attacked Iraq is because American Neo-cons wanted to attack Iraq - and Bush was a Christmas story come true.
You're stretching and you know it. But weren't you the one who said Clinton is just as bad as Bush because we still have some guys hanging out in Kosovo? Logical comparisons don't seem to be your strongpoint.
Rant aside, I don't really get why you insist on defending our actions in Iraq. Our justifications were BS, a hundred thousand people are dead, a country is ruined, and tens of billions of dollars have been misspent or outright stolen. You're trying to say its not our fault because we lied to the international community and got some other countries (under false pretenses) to send troops to die on a bullshit wild goose chase? Ridiculous.

Wow, you can't even remember something that if you took two seconds, you could search and find. I responded to the contention that Clinton engaged the military then immediately withdrew after a quick victory or when a quick victory wasn't possible by pointing out that Kosovo began under him and we are STILL there. Glad to see you still don't let facts get in the way of your babbeling.
The reason I keep doing it is that I forget that you are a liberal and believe that anyone that isn't, doesn't have the ability to think for themselves and make their own decisions. I keep forgetting that you like to blame Republicans/Conservatives/The United States (any non-liberals) for everyone else's poor decisions-as if there aren't enough actual bad decisions by Republicans/Conservatives/The United States to find fault with....
Sorry, in the future I will try to remember that in your mind;
Facts are irrelevant
Non-Liberals are responsible for all bad decisions-even ones made by Liberals themselves.

[Shrike]

Wow, you can't even remember something that if you took two seconds, you could search and find. I responded to the contention that Clinton engaged the military then immediately withdrew after a quick victory or when a quick victory wasn't possible by pointing out that Kosovo began under him and we are STILL there. Glad to see you still don't let facts get in the way of your babbeling.
The reason I keep doing it is that I forget that you are a liberal and believe that anyone that isn't, doesn't have the ability to think for themselves and make their own decisions. I keep forgetting that you like to blame Republicans/Conservatives/The United States (any non-liberals) for everyone else's poor decisions-as if there aren't enough actual bad decisions by Republicans/Conservatives/The United States to find fault with....
Sorry, in the future I will try to remember that in your mind;
Facts are irrelevant
Non-Liberals are responsible for all bad decisions-even ones made by Liberals themselves.

Was it 1995 when Clinton made his impassioned speech about the Balkans where he stated that "we'll have our boys home by Christmas!"? 16 years later...?

But I guess if Clinton'd brought everyone out of the Balkans he wouldn't have been able to award what was at the time the largest no-bid contract in the history of Earth to Halliburton. What a war-mongering douche.

[Pullinteeth]

Was it 1995 when Clinton made his impassioned speech about the Balkans where he stated that "we'll have our boys home by Christmas!"? 16 years later...?

But I guess if Clinton'd brought everyone out of the Balkans he wouldn't have been able to award what was at the time the largest no-bid contract in the history of Earth to Halliburton. What a war-mongering douche.

Yeppers...I wasn't even bashing Clinton. I was merely pointing out that the claim that he either declared a quick victory and bolted or got his @$$ handed to him and bolted wasn't true...

[Joe Bonham]

Wow, you can't even remember something that if you took two seconds, you could search and find. I responded to the contention that Clinton engaged the military then immediately withdrew after a quick victory or when a quick victory wasn't possible by pointing out that Kosovo began under him and we are STILL there. Glad to see you still don't let facts get in the way of your babbeling.
The reason I keep doing it is that I forget that you are a liberal and believe that anyone that isn't, doesn't have the ability to think for themselves and make their own decisions. I keep forgetting that you like to blame Republicans/Conservatives/The United States (any non-liberals) for everyone else's poor decisions-as if there aren't enough actual bad decisions by Republicans/Conservatives/The United States to find fault with....
Sorry, in the future I will try to remember that in your mind;
Facts are irrelevant
Non-Liberals are responsible for all bad decisions-even ones made by Liberals themselves.

How many IEDs are we hitting in Kosovo? How many caskets are getting sent home every day? Are we getting mortared? How about terrorists? How many terrorists are there? For Christ's sake its a UN peacekeeping mission. I know Conservatives hate the UN and any project that's not controlled by Americans must be evil... but still. Come on. Over 6 thousand Americans have died in an endless occupation and a pointless war - yet you want to compare it to Kosovo, which was a pen flare in comparison, and hasn't seen any real action for years... this smacks of desperation.

If you think Clinton's little foray into Bosnia, is even remotely comparable to Bush's GWOT, the most destructive war America has experienced since Vietnam - you need your head examined.

At least you dropped your notion that there is international blame for Iraq.

[Pullinteeth]

How many IEDs are we hitting in Kosovo? How many caskets are getting sent home every day? Are we getting mortared? How about terrorists? How many terrorists are there? For Christ's sake its a UN peacekeeping mission. I know Conservatives hate the UN and any project that's not controlled by Americans must be evil... but still. Come on. Over 6 thousand Americans have died in an endless occupation and a pointless war - yet you want to compare it to Kosovo, which was a pen flare in comparison, and hasn't seen any real action for years... this smacks of desperation.
If you think Clinton's little foray into Bosnia, is even remotely comparable to Bush's GWOT, the most destructive war America has experienced since Vietnam - you need your head examined.
At least you dropped your notion that there is international blame for Iraq.

Glad the facts still don't get in your way. ARE WE STILL THERE? Yes or no? THAT is the only question that is relevant to the discussion you were (mis)referencing. You obviously need not only your head examined but also your eyes because your vision is shit. There is PLENTY of international "blame" for Iraq if you care to lay blame. Of course, you being the bleeding heart liberal that you are cannot see that ANYONE could possibly have any blame except the United States and specificaly Conservatives in the United States... After all, everyone else is too stupid to make their own decisions.

[AJBIGJ]

Why does this conversation seem like asking whose domestic policies do we prefer, Hitler's or Stalin's?

[Joe Bonham]

Glad the facts still don't get in your way. ARE WE STILL THERE? Yes or no? THAT is the only question that is relevant to the discussion you were (mis)referencing.

Yes, we are. We are also still in Germany and Japan. Simply being in a country is not the same as occupying it, and its certainly not the same thing as fighting a war.


You obviously need not only your head examined but also your eyes because your vision is shit. There is PLENTY of international "blame" for Iraq if you care to lay blame. Of course, you being the bleeding heart liberal that you are cannot see that ANYONE could possibly have any blame except the United States and specificaly Conservatives in the United States... After all, everyone else is too stupid to make their own decisions.

You yourself admitted neither war would have happened without the US. So I would be fascinated to know what "international blame" there is for either incident. It seems to me you are trying to deflect blame to other countries that were more or less irrelevant so we can save face.

But I have news for you buddy. You can try to blame the UK, Germany, Ireland, or whoever all day - but in the end - the people of Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen, Libya, Iran, and every other country we're screwing with are going to blame US.


Why does this conversation seem like asking whose domestic policies do we prefer, Hitler's or Stalin's?

When it comes to Hitler, there's an elephant in the room nobody wants to talk about: the Third Reich was no worse than the British Empire. The first modern concentration camps were invented by the British. The mass starvation caused by Stalin had already been applied by the British against the colonies for centuries. The British routinely massacred civilians and bombed densely populated cities long before the first German plane flew over London. And it wasn't just the British - all the other Euro Empires were just as merciless.

It seems that what made Hitler bad wasn't his techniques of terror and genocide. What made him bad was that he used these techniques on other Europeans.

[AJBIGJ]

When it comes to Hitler, there's an elephant in the room nobody wants to talk about: the Third Reich was no worse than the British Empire. The first modern concentration camps were invented by the British. The mass starvation caused by Stalin had already been applied by the British against the colonies for centuries. The British routinely massacred civilians and bombed densely populated cities long before the first German plane flew over London. And it wasn't just the British - all the other Euro Empires were just as merciless.

It seems that what made Hitler bad wasn't his techniques of terror and genocide. What made him bad was that he used these techniques on other Europeans.

Aside from the point, I think you knew that though. Funny thing is to an extent I agree, I wouldn't use the arguments to justify the actions of the Third Reich per se but it is interesting when weighed against historical context.

[Joe Bonham]

Aside from the point, I think you knew that though. Funny thing is to an extent I agree, I wouldn't use the arguments to justify the actions of the Third Reich per se but it is interesting when weighed against historical context.

Not to say they were justified by any means, but there is quite a movement afoot today trying to glorify the European Empires, the British variety in particular - and advocate us establishing our own. Even morality aside, the suggestion we should be world policeman is ridiculous - the period when it was possible to exploit an empire for economic gain is long since past.

[TJMAC77SP]

Not to say they were justified by any means, but there is quite a movement afoot today trying to glorify the European Empires, the British variety in particular - and advocate us establishing our own. Even morality aside, the suggestion we should be world policeman is ridiculous - the period when it was possible to exploit an empire for economic gain is long since past.


Can you give me an example of this 'movement afoot' which glorifies the British Empire?

[Joe Bonham]

Can you give me an example of this 'movement afoot' which glorifies the British Empire?

Niall Ferguson comes to mind. Neo-cons kiss the ground he walks on.

[TJMAC77SP]

Niall Ferguson comes to mind. Neo-cons kiss the ground he walks on.

Ahh, a British historian who writes of the glory and accomplishments of the British Empire. I thought you were speaking of a movement in the US.

[Pullinteeth]

Yes, we are. We are also still in Germany and Japan. Simply being in a country is not the same as occupying it, and its certainly not the same thing as fighting a war.
You yourself admitted neither war would have happened without the US. So I would be fascinated to know what "international blame" there is for either incident. It seems to me you are trying to deflect blame to other countries that were more or less irrelevant so we can save face.
But I have news for you buddy. You can try to blame the UK, Germany, Ireland, or whoever all day - but in the end - the people of Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen, Libya, Iran, and every other country we're screwing with are going to blame US.

Still don't get it...not surprised. The contention was that Clinton started his little skirmishes then WITHDREW after a quick victory or when he decided a quick victory was not possible. I merely pointed out that isn't true. Your attempt to obfuscate and Corney's inability to admit he was wrong aside, the FACT is that we are still in Kosovo so I was right, Corney was wrong and you misconstrue BOTH because you can't read.
The fact that you don't hold anyone responsible for their own actions is a bit disheartening but not surprising. What is amusing though is that you seem to find nothing wrong with using the following people's opinions to support yours; Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen, Libya, & Iran...

[Joe Bonham]

Still don't get it...not surprised. The contention was that Clinton started his little skirmishes then WITHDREW after a quick victory or when he decided a quick victory was not possible. I merely pointed out that isn't true. Your attempt to obfuscate and Corney's inability to admit he was wrong aside, the FACT is that we are still in Kosovo so I was right, Corney was wrong and you misconstrue BOTH because you can't read.

They were quick victories because WE'RE NOT FIGHTING IN KOSOVO. Please, stop posting nonsense to make Bush look better. PLEASE.


The fact that you don't hold anyone responsible for their own actions is a bit disheartening but not surprising. What is amusing though is that you seem to find nothing wrong with using the following people's opinions to support yours; Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen, Libya, & Iran...

They're the people being murdered in our wars, I would say their opinion matters. Though I guess from a pragmatic sense, their opinion DOESN'T matter. When has the victim ever gotten a say in anything?

[Pullinteeth]

They were quick victories because WE'RE NOT FIGHTING IN KOSOVO. Please, stop posting nonsense to make Bush look better. PLEASE.
They're the people being murdered in our wars, I would say their opinion matters. Though I guess from a pragmatic sense, their opinion DOESN'T matter. When has the victim ever gotten a say in anything?

You are incapable of grasping even the simplest concept aren't you. The question wasn't whether we won, won quickly, or lost quickly. It was claimed that after a quick victory/defeat, Clinton immediately withdrew the troops. It has absolutely nothing to do with Bush. It has to do with the fact that as usual, Corney was WRONG. Stop posting nonsense...
They aren't our wars. You are saying that we are at war in Iran? Libya? Yemen? Packistan? Wow...Obama has been busy starting wars all over the place hasn't he? Bush only had his hand in two wars and you are saying Obama has started four all by himself?

[Joe Bonham]

You are incapable of grasping even the simplest concept aren't you. The question wasn't whether we won, won quickly, or lost quickly. It was claimed that after a quick victory/defeat, Clinton immediately withdrew the troops. It has absolutely nothing to do with Bush. It has to do with the fact that as usual, Corney was WRONG. Stop posting nonsense...

Alright. So we have troops in Kosovo. So what?



They aren't our wars.


Evading responsibility is real cute - but if we pulled out tomorrow, everyone else would as well.


You are saying that we are at war in Iran? Libya? Yemen? Packistan? Wow...Obama has been busy starting wars all over the place hasn't he? Bush only had his hand in two wars and you are saying Obama has started four all by himself?

Yup.

[Pullinteeth]

Alright. So we have troops in Kosovo. So what?
Evading responsibility is real cute - but if we pulled out tomorrow, everyone else would as well.
Yup.

So what? So 'ol corney was wrong when he said Clinton pulled out immediately.. That was the whole point of the conversation you now seem intent on misconstruing ...
So? That means that we are the only ones that were involved in the invasion? That is interesting logic.
Wow, I have never heard ANYONE claim that Obama personally started more wars than are blamed on Bush.

[Joe Bonham]

So what? So 'ol corney was wrong when he said Clinton pulled out immediately.. That was the whole point of the conversation you now seem intent on misconstruing ...

Maybe I was just reading too much into it - but I don't see how the two are comparable.



So? That means that we are the only ones that were involved in the invasion? That is interesting logic.

So if I frame someone for drug dealing and he gets arrested, and I steal all of his stuff - that means its also the fault of everybody else, not just me for setting him up?


Wow, I have never heard ANYONE claim that Obama personally started more wars than are blamed on Bush.

Certainly. He adopted Bush's legacy and took it to its logical conclusion.

[Pullinteeth]

Maybe I was just reading too much into it - but I don't see how the two are comparable.
So if I frame someone for drug dealing and he gets arrested, and I steal all of his stuff - that means its also the fault of everybody else, not just me for setting him up?
Certainly. He adopted Bush's legacy and took it to its logical conclusion.

You were. No harm no foul. I can see what you THOUGHT I was saying, but I wasn't. I was simply pointing out 'ol Corney was wrong yet again...course he would never admit it but it is true none-the-less.
Your analogy makes now sense. Let me take a crack at it and see if it clears it up for you. If you and three of your friends went out and framed him for dealing drugs, even if you were the ringleader and an argument could be made that the others wouldn't have done it without you, then yes they would still be guilty. MAYBE you could say that you were more guilty than they were but you certianly couldn't claim they were pure as the driven snow which is what you are trying to do here.
Christ. REALLY? So now you blame Obama for wars that haven't even happened yet but still claim that they aren't his fault, they are Bush's fault?

[Joe Bonham]

You were. No harm no foul. I can see what you THOUGHT I was saying, but I wasn't. I was simply pointing out 'ol Corney was wrong yet again...course he would never admit it but it is true none-the-less.

Fair enough my mistake.


Your analogy makes now sense. Let me take a crack at it and see if it clears it up for you. If you and three of your friends went out and framed him for dealing drugs, even if you were the ringleader and an argument could be made that the others wouldn't have done it without you, then yes they would still be guilty. MAYBE you could say that you were more guilty than they were but you certianly couldn't claim they were pure as the driven snow which is what you are trying to do here.

Or more accurately I frame him for drugs, and the police raid his house - in the confusion I steal his money so my actions could "pay for itself".

We made the case that Saddam had WMDs. He didn't. We seized Iraq's assets to "safeguard" them, most of which was lost/stolen/squandered. We failed to protect their sanitation, social, and cultural sites - we were too busy guarding the oil infrasctructure. While one can argue that the coalition partners shouldn't have been so easily fooled, and should have withdrawn immediately after the WMD BS came to light - the lion's share of the blame lies with us.


Christ. REALLY? So now you blame Obama for wars that haven't even happened yet but still claim that they aren't his fault, they are Bush's fault?

No... I blame Obama for Obama's actions. He ran for offices promising "change", but turned out to be just another Bush. And no, its not Bush's fault that Obama did that. Just pointing out the fact that Obama continued Bush's legacy.

And what wars "that haven't even happened yet" are you referring to?

[AIRborne184]

On behalf of the United States KISS OUR RED WHITE AND BLUE ASS.
If it weren't for us you would be speaking Japanese.
By the way if we leave YOUR country it would fold again.
Leaving it open for another dipstick to take over.

Thank America, Canada, France and England (Maybe Russia) for the ground you are standing on to call home.
We could take all of our of our jobs back as well. The car companies would also close.They should kick you out of the country. GO Screw yourself.

[AIRborne184]

ASSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLL LLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[Joe Bonham]

On behalf of the United States KISS OUR RED WHITE AND BLUE ASS.
If it weren't for us you would be speaking Japanese.
By the way if we leave YOUR country it would fold again.
Leaving it open for another dipstick to take over.

Thank America, Canada, France and England (Maybe Russia) for the ground you are standing on to call home.
We could take all of our of our jobs back as well. The car companies would also close.They should kick you out of the country. GO Screw yourself.

... How would GERMANS be speaking JAPANESE?

And why do you say "MAYBE" Russia? They sacrificed far more in the War than anyone else - and they certainly played a larger role than Canada and France.

[DocBones]

That's OK. I really hate Germany.