Grooming Standards

[JPNORMANJR]

The one grooming standard I would change is male Marines being not allowed to wear an earing while in liberty attire. This regulation is out dated and does not make any sense. Liberty attire should be neat, clean and conservative as if you were in the uniform of the day. The wearing of an ear ring for male Marines is not considered conservative nor appropriate for the occasion. However, Marines who have "sleeve" tattoos which are visiable while in uniform are considered to be neat, clean and conservative. Not only that, the tattoos are considered appropriate for the occasion. A Marine standing at the main gate with a "sleeve" tattoo depicting a spider web on the elbow, barbed wire around the forearm, and writing up and down the arms presents a neat, clean and conservative while waving car through the gate? Yet, a Marine in pressed trousers and dress shirt, belt and polished dress shoes wearing an earing does not present a neat, clean, or conservative look?

The Marine Corps has a long tradition of sea service, which continues today. One sea service tradition that was around during 1776, when the Marine Corps was founded, was the wearing of a gold loop or stud in the ear. The purpose was for those who died in battle to pay for a decent burial; the gold loop or stud was the accepted payment.

The other services allow their male service members to wear earings while in liberty attire.

[Measure Man]

The one grooming standard I would change is male Marines being not allowed to wear an earing while in liberty attire. This regulation is out dated and does not make any sense. Liberty attire should be neat, clean and conservative as if you were in the uniform of the day. The wearing of an ear ring for male Marines is not considered conservative nor appropriate for the occasion. However, Marines who have "sleeve" tattoos which are visiable while in uniform are considered to be neat, clean and conservative. Not only that, the tattoos are considered appropriate for the occasion. A Marine standing at the main gate with a "sleeve" tattoo depicting a spider web on the elbow, barbed wire around the forearm, and writing up and down the arms presents a neat, clean and conservative while waving car through the gate? Yet, a Marine in pressed trousers and dress shirt, belt and polished dress shoes wearing an earing does not present a neat, clean, or conservative look?

The Marine Corps has a long tradition of sea service, which continues today. One sea service tradition that was around during 1776, when the Marine Corps was founded, was the wearing of a gold loop or stud in the ear. The purpose was for those who died in battle to pay for a decent burial; the gold loop or stud was the accepted payment.

The other services allow their male service members to wear earings while in liberty attire.

The Air Force does not allow males to wear earring anytime while on base. They may wear them off base in civilian attire.

[SSgt2651]

The Air Force does not allow males to wear earring anytime while on base. They may wear them off base in civilian attire.
Right. Same with the Navy, I think.

Which leads me to this: If it isn't acceptable enough to wear on base or in uniform, why do they (other services) allow it at all?

Listen, an earring on a male is not neat, and not professional, no matter how many different ways you try to spin it. A Marines' liberty attire should reflect that of the service "C" uniform. You don't wear an earring in your service C, you don't need to wear it otherwise.

Additionally, if the Corps were to sell out and join the other services in allowing us to wear an earring on liberty, where does it stop? First it's an earring in one ear. Then you'll have Marines trying to push it to two ears, then the toungue, etc.

This is contrary to good order and discipline, and I'm glad Marines aren't authorized to wear earrings. Let the other services dress up like nancies. Marines don't do that garbage.

And really, the author of this thread should go haze himself for even making this suggestion.

[JMK4871]

Being a Professional member of the most Elite Branch of the United States Military sets us apart from the other uniformed services. We are Marines. What we are not is the politically correct Army or the Navy or the Air Force. We are Marines and we should never forget that. We who have sweated out the swamps of Parris Island or endured the mountains of Camp Pendleton and have gave of ourselves for the benefit of a largely ungrateful nation have earned the title to be a member of this proud fraternity. Such duties require us to be a symbol of this nation. Such duties require us to honor our traditions and the sacrifices of those who went before us. Such duties require us to be ambassadors of our cause every day, all day. That is why we dont wear earrings, at all!That is why tattoos are frowned upon. That is why Marines look like Marines and everybody else looks like the rabble that they are.

[MARCUSTHEMARINE]

Not to beat a dead horse on this subject but your proposal, while valid falls along the lines of those opposing the new tatoo rule. Picture if you will, an office job out in the civillian world. People who are mad about the tatoo rule and people like yourself who disagree with the earring rule would fall flat in a job like that . Sure they argue that sleeves and earrings don't effect performance, but what they do effect is image. Walk into any "navy" command. If you had the authority to tell all of them to stand in a line and hold their tounges out, you would likely find atleast 3 with tounge rings (my wife is one of them). Marines, albeus a team, revel in our individuality as an organization. That is the reason for the earrings and tatoo policies even though the other services have loosened their standards.

Your not wrong or a bag for wondering, but understand that the Marine Corps is the REAL military, turning recruits into REAL men. All these other characters lurking about are little more than high school kids in uniform with guns. That is why they are held to such juvenile standards.

[reddog1775]

well, just my point ofview as a former marine and a MAN... GIRLS wear earrings....

[RiggerMan]

Marcus and JMK . You cannot honestly lump together the new tat policy with this thing about earrings. That just doesn't fly. It makes about as much sense as the guy who argued that if we don't outlaw sleeve tattoos, Marines will want to get tatoos on their head. The earring thing and head tatoos have been long standing rules that everyone knew about when they signed up. So don't try to equalize and arguement for earrings with an arguement against the new tat policy. Also you cannot compare what we do here with an office out in the civilian world. Those people are trying to sell a product or a service and their livelyhood may be negatively affected by their image ( unless you work in a tat shop). However our job is to kill people so do you honestly think it affects our image if we look the part of psychotic killer with tats all over our arms. I am not including jobs such as recruiter, MSG, or presidential guard. I have no problem with excluding tat covered people from those jobs they present a public image.

As far as the earring thing I am a sily redneck and think that guys wearing earrings is just wrong. And the arguement about it being a sailing tradition, if you want that join the Navy. And by saying that the reg is outdated do you mean outdated the same way that guys being able to hold hands and sleep together is outdated.

The only grooming standard that I think could use some updating is the Mustach thing. Loosen up on that thing so that people can grow something other than the Hitler Stache.

[THAEMCEE2]

I think it's well overdue for the Marine Corps to change/update their grooming standards. The ones we have now are so old and outdated, and of course the Marine Corps has to be so big on tradition and all that. But it is time to change them all. Not just jewlery, uniform stuff, tattoos, ect. Everything the Marine Corps has for grooming standards policy is way too strict in my opinion. The one that irritates me most is haircuts and tattoos. Why is the Marines the only service to require a 0 or skin out to 3 inches or whatever it is? Do they not know how stupid that looks? The look of skin changes the color and looks of your natrual head and hair. And high and tights are the dumbest looking haircut I've ever seen in my life. Why no sideburns? Why don't all commanders enforce the rule of a haircut EVERY PAY PERIOD, not every week. You won't catch me getting a haircut every week at almost 10$ a cut. That adds up, unless they want to pay for our haircuts, they should leave it as it is. Imagine being in a suit and tie or dressed nice for an interview on the outside world, and having a high and tight, or anything similar for that matter. They would laugh at you. And we're supposed to be professionals? Yea right. If marines can get unauthorized haircuts such as horseshoes and razor shaven heads ect. then I should be able to get a 1 on the sides every 2 weeks out to 4 inches, with sideburns halfway down my ears. Theres nothing bad or unprofessional about it. Nothing ECENTRIC about that, but a high and tight isn't? Of course the Marines are the only service to make it stupid.

As for tattoos, I think it's rediculous to say we can't get tattoos anywhere we want. It's our body. As long as its not offensive, racist, gang related, ect. then it shouldn't be a problem. Marines get tattoos, face it. We've been doing it since creation and you want to take that away from us. How the heck does the Marines expect to grow by 22,000 marines overall in the next 5 years if they keep making it more stupid and harder? It's never going to happen; marines will be getting out due to the stupid stuff that they just can't deal with anymore, such as stupid regulations. The Army loosened up their regulations on tattoos, and they've got to grow a lot over the next years as well. But not the Marines. We'll make everything stupid.

Times are changing. If the Marine Corps wants to stick to its dinosour type mentality of every Marine being an elite person who needs to act and appear like we did in the 1700s, then we will eventually fade away because no one will join. We need to change as long as times and more importantly as warfare changes. We'll see what happens.

[William Wilson]

well, just my point ofview as a former marine and a MAN... GIRLS wear earrings....
I am old enough to remember when the only males who wore earrings were gay males. I am one of four male siblings, two of whom (myself and one other brother) are gay. Of the four, I am the only one never to have worn an earring. None of us have tattoos. And none of us has been in the military. I don't like earrings because they look feminine; if I was interested in that sort of thing, there are plenty of willing women. I don't like tatoos either. I think they make the wearer look like trailer trash, especially the women (not that I really care about that). I can think of one or two exceptions, but discretion prevents me from saying more. :)

So, given that the people who really make the rules in big organizations are my age (50) or a little older, I suspect that the USMC doesn't want its people looking like trailer trash, and certainly not like gay trailer trash. By the way, I've known a few gay Marines but none who wore earrings. Things used to be so much simpler, didn't they? I wonder what will happen one of these years when they find out that a lot of gay males wear short hair. I mean, that one's only been going on for 30 years or so, which I think is about how long it takes the military to become aware of changes in society. Mandatory ponytails, anyone? :cool:

p.s.: One of these days I'll figure out not just why straight guys eventually adopt gay fashions, but why they adopt the worst gay fashions. I'll never forget the time I was visiting a friend @ Camp Pendleton in the '70s and saw a bunch of Marines dressed up for a night at the disco, complete with platform shoes. Once I got over the shock, I coulda died laughing. Now I see all these straight guys with not just one earring but two of 'em. Whatever gets you through the night ... :D

[BoozerMan]

They definitely don't laugh at you for having a high and tight in the corporate world. I must admit, from what I've seen it isn't the norm, but then again neither is being a Marine. I'm not in the corporate world, but my wife is a professional scientist and I'm going to school for psychology and I see no one who minds the haircut. I suppose the worst you run into are people that think you're a bullet-head just on appearance. High and tight doesn't mean you have to have that seriously tight horseshoe thing also - that may bring an odd glance.

[William Wilson]

They definitely don't laugh at you for having a high and tight in the corporate world. I must admit, from what I've seen it isn't the norm, but then again neither is being a Marine. I'm not in the corporate world, but my wife is a professional scientist and I'm going to school for psychology and I see no one who minds the haircut..
"The corporate world" is a pretty loose term. I once had something approaching a high-and-tight, by mistake, and it wasn't exactly a hit at the box office.

I had flown to San Francisco on business and walked into a barbershop on the edge of Chinatown. Through what was (in retrospect) a hilarious linguistic misunderstanding, I wound up with a haircut out of a cartoon. It was halfway to British punk rocker, minus the spikes and day-glo dye job. I jumped out of the chair, looked in the mirror and shouted, "What did you DO to me? I have business on Monday!" My friends who met me that afternoon said, "Did you try to screw the light socket again?" Something had to be done, so I found a hotel barbershop. When I walked in, the two barbers started laughing at me. (Honest, I'm not making this up. It was that bad.) I said, "Guys, you've got to fix this!" One of them said, "Well, all I can really do is cut it all off. It will grow back."

I groaned and said okay, have at it. So he went from the skin at the ears to about a half-inch on top. "God, I look like I just got out of boot camp," I said. "The only thing I'm missing is the BC glasses." You know, those military issue black-rimmed glasses that were called birth-control glasses because no woman would go out with a guy who wore them? Anyway, he tried to console me by telling me that bankers used to wear haircuts like mine in the early 20th Century. "Nice try." I said. "There are lots of things that people used to wear 100 years ago."

When my boss came out to the conference on Monday he looked at me and asked me if I had decided to join the Marines. That haircut works if you're 18, he said, but you're not 18. I explained the whole thing, but it was pretty embarrassing. So, at least in my neck of the corporate woods, a high-and-tight wasn't too fashionable. My secretary liked it, anyway. But she wasn't the one who signed my performance reviews. The good news was that it eventually grew back. I kept my job.

[Ace of Lances]

the ear ring thing would be nice but it does look ynprofessional. the haircuts i don't know what to say about that cause i had a high and tight for the longest time with long hair looked almost like i had a mohawk. but what i think we should be able to have is a goatee. well trimmed and neat like a moustache. i would love to have one.

[SSgt2651]

the ear ring thing would be nice but it does look ynprofessional. the haircuts i don't know what to say about that cause i had a high and tight for the longest time with long hair looked almost like i had a mohawk. but what i think we should be able to have is a goatee. well trimmed and neat like a moustache. i would love to have one.
I sure do hope you didn't say that with a straight face.

[ibanezrg520kid]

the ear ring thing would be nice but it does look ynprofessional. the haircuts i don't know what to say about that cause i had a high and tight for the longest time with long hair looked almost like i had a mohawk. but what i think we should be able to have is a goatee. well trimmed and neat like a moustache. i would love to have one.

i don't know why, but when i think of a white guy with a short military haircut and a goatee... but..

i think of someone who is racist or in the klan lol

[Ace of Lances]

well its a good thing that i'm not white or racist and i also don't even get a high and stupid anymore. its too motivating for me. don't get me wrong i'm proud to be a Marine i just don't agree with most of the ways things work like promotions.

[aaron_stevenson]

The hair cut standards today need to be changed for a number of reasons. One, we preach and preach about making yourself a "hard target" however if you were to go to Devil Dog Mall in either Oceanside, CA or Jacksonville, NC you could count Marines by the platoon as they walk around with high and tights. Yeah, many Marines like to have high and tights. Nothing against that. However, I'm sure we've all had one point in our career where we've been told to "Cut your hair" or "Get a MARINE haircut". Hard target. MARINE haircut. I think it's time we "adapt" as we all claim to be so great at. Two, to pitch in with this is the fact that having long hair used to be a sign of pride in the 1940's. As the legend goes (and many old vets at any local VFW bar), Marines had longer hair because we are more hygenic than that of the Army, who had short hair. However, during the 1960's and Vietnam War, which this is also the timeframe of the 'sexual revolution', hippies decided to have long hair. Over time, getting shorter hair cuts and more 'horse shoes' were a way of sticking it to the hippies since we couldn't beat them. Having long hair (long being a huge three inches) does not in any way show demotivation. If you can be a grown man and keep the lice out of your hair like so many American males do today, we should consider going through the regulations to perhaps three inches all around. Especially when deployed at war. It is a certifiable fact that doing your job in a manner that professionals do will defeat the insurgency and build the nations we are currently in, not how you look.

[SSgt2111]

I agree that your haircut has little to do with mission accomplishment. However David Grossman, author of "On Killing" came and spoke to my unit prior to our deployment to Iraq, in regards to haircuts he stated: 'that if you can't submit to getting your haircut how can you submit to discipline, it has nothing to do with appearance and everything to do with discipline'. I think his statement is true. Don't get wrapped around the axle in regards about appearance, but more so focus on the end result of haircut regulations, discipline. The current regulations, at least in my opinion allow for a Marine to keep a low profile if he so chooses. 3" of hair evenly graduated, or a shaved head are more then adequate to hide ones affiliation with the Corps, however the deportment your typical Marine carries himself with is significantly harder to conceal.

[Measure Man]

One, we preach and preach about making yourself a "hard target" however if you were to go to Devil Dog Mall in either Oceanside, CA or Jacksonville, NC you could count Marines by the platoon as they walk around with high and tights. Yeah, many Marines like to have high and tights. Nothing against that. However, I'm sure we've all had one point in our career where we've been told to "Cut your hair" or "Get a MARINE haircut". Hard target. MARINE haircut.

Whatever the standard becomes...it will be easy to pick out the people at the local mall who meet that standard. Unless you are proposing Marines to meet the same grooming standard as civilians, they will always be easy to point out....especially near a Marine base.



It is a certifiable fact that doing your job in a manner that professionals do will defeat the insurgency and build the nations we are currently in, not how you look.

Your certifiable fact could not be further from the truth. Who certified that fact, by the way? Perhaps the most important factor as to whether or not we win this war is the American public's support of the war effort. A large portion of that comes from the impression the public has of the military. Currently, we enjoy a very high approval rating, but don't take that for granted. It was not the same during the Vietnam conflict...and every case of misconduct that goes on erodes that approval rating. The way we look is extremely important in maintaining a public image of professional Soldier, Sailors, Airmen and Marines. We can defeat the insurgency militarily...given enough time and support. The key to it is really how long the public will support it...as you can see that support is much less today than it was in 2003. The critical battle is in public affairs...if we don't win that, the rest is unwinnable.

[Born Invincible]

For those who oppose the Marine Corps grooming standard there is nothing that says you can't have sideburns, or that you can have long hair on your hair. The Marine Corps grooming standard is not a high and tight. It states 0" - 3" 0" at the hairline. the hairline is that thing that starts at the back of the head. if you look at the standard a high and tight is not a gradual fade, a horse shoe is eccentric and by the order there is nothing wrong or illegal about a shaved head as long as it is voluntary by hte individual. on mandatory baldies can be given in recruit training. I have "argued" with 1stSgts and other SNCOs (by argue I mean we discussed during PMEs or in the presence of only NCOs and above and always with tact) the reason why an eccentric haircut is what we are trying to establish as the norm. I personally don't have any vested interest in 4" or a flat top or anything, I cut my hair off completely because it's cheaper than spending $10 every week. Alot of senior enlisted have taken the letter of the law and have added their own twist to what is clearly written. If a medium or low regulation haircut was out of regulation then why is it called a medium or low REGULATION haircut? Because according to MCO P1020.34G it is regulation. For all those people arguing about nothing look it up. If you took you "offenders" to a barbershop with the order in hand his haircut is within standard.

To start WW3 How about putting in black and white the real debate hands in pockets. Why is it that repeatedly the CMC has said it is ok. Every CMC that I have been in for (Krulak forward) has said it is OK, and then every 1stSgt I work for says it's not? Who makes policy in the Marine Corps? I thought NCOs (to include SNCOs enforce the policy and the Officers make policy. Maybe I'm wrong. If we are not supposed to use our pockets then give me pockets that aren't angled 45 degrees to allow me to put my hands in them and make my cargo pockets bigger so I can put more things in them... Oh wait you can't put stuff in your cargo pockets when in garrison either... hmmm. Has anyone forgot utility uniform doesn't mean dress uniform? That is the reason why we went to this MCCUUs (digi's). Now there is no need to iron them, not to hide the "Turd bags" but because the older style uniforms were being rendered useless by starch (you can see the glint with IR NVGs in the moonlight easier, and the starch fades them faster). But of course harder not smarter is our unofficial moto in the Marine Corps.

Using our "unwritten" laws over common sense is all in the name of "not being like the army" which is the answer that has replaced "because I'm your mommy that's why" as the answer you give to someone who you want to stop doing something you can't think up a real reason why what they are doing is wrong in the first place. If we are going to become like the Army I think our 12 week boot camp, dwell time in foreign countries while deployed, our utility uniform, our physical training standards, our marksmanship standards, and our ties with naval tradition will be more important to each individual leatherneck than the length of head hair, and ways I chose to keep my hands warm.

Finally a parting shot why is hair length, and hands in the pocket more enforced than the rule of no walking while dipping?

[SSgt2111]

Born, you make good points and I agree with you. In regards to hands in the pockets, I have only heard that General Krulak said this. I was in during his tenure and do not remember reading anything with my own eyes. I have not heard any of his predecessors mention any guidance in regards to having ones hands in pockets, either for or against. Do you have any articles or references you can provide? I would like to carry a copy of that around with me when I'm in the field. I have been corrected numerous times while in the field (while cold) to not put my hands in my pockets, by you guessed it, 1stSgt's. I do not agree that Marines should be allowed to put their hands in their pockets in Garrison, to me it looks nasty, the field and training such as ranges is a different animal however. A lot of individuals do not even know what the order uniform regulations are in. The other day I asked at least 8 NCO's, Cpl's and Sgt's what the order was. The closest person said: "there is a 10 in there right". Then one of the Cpl's mentioned how my shaved head was against regulations, to which I immediately corrected. A lot of people are under misconceptions from things they have heard others say, hence my interest in seeing something in writing about hands in pockets, I hate repeating things without being able to cite a reference. Perhaps there should be a MARADMIN about this much contested alleged regulation. Why not, we are getting MARADMINS about everything these days it seems.

[Born Invincible]

I have personally heard Former Commandant Gen Jones say it during one of his many visits to BLT 3/1 in 2002. I have never seen anythng written stating you cannot have your hands in the pockets.I think you should not be allowed to walk with them in the pockets but why not stand around with them in the pockets? What is "unprofessional" about your hands in the pockets? If I'm supposed to be professional why am I wearing a utility uniform and not my service uniform? I'm an 03, I do not work in an office, and I spend the majority of my time doing tasks that get me dirty, weapons maintainance, vehicle maintainance, and other field craft. I think dipping or chewing tobacco is much more unsightly and alot less professional but how many times have you been in conversation with a SNCO or Officer and they had a huge dip in? Lets be real here. Dipping and chewing tobacco is disgusting, and causes health problems, hands in my pockets are neither of the two.

[SSgt2111]

Born,

Good points indeed. You're correct in regards to chewing tobacco, it is a nasty habit, and you make a good comparison between hands in pockets and chewing tobacco. I too have not seen any regulation specifically prohibiting placing ones hands in their pockets. I have always been told it is "nasty" or "unprofessional". Unfortunately because you heard to Commandant say it doesn't mean I can use it when some 1stSgt tells me to take my hands out of my pockets. I think this is one issue that should be put to rest once and for all in writing.

[Born Invincible]

The big thing is if a 1stSgt tells you to remove your hands from your pocket you should just grin and bare it. Aye 1stSgt is your best response. Anything more and you are looking at disrespect in a lot of peoples eyes. There is no written law, order, or regulation prohibiting hands in the pockets hence the term "unwritten law". I just feel that if the powers that be really don't want hands in pockets they should state that in writing other wise it is not a lawful order given the fact that it hasn't been published and hasn't been issued by a commissioned officer unless I'm wrong on that as well...

[Measure Man]

The big thing is if a 1stSgt tells you to remove your hands from your pocket you should just grin and bare it. Aye 1stSgt is your best response. Anything more and you are looking at disrespect in a lot of peoples eyes. There is no written law, order, or regulation prohibiting hands in the pockets hence the term "unwritten law". I just feel that if the powers that be really don't want hands in pockets they should state that in writing other wise it is not a lawful order given the fact that it hasn't been published and hasn't been issued by a commissioned officer unless I'm wrong on that as well...

It is perfectly lawful for a 1st Sgt or any NCO to order to do something that isn't a published minimum standard. They can order you to roll up your sleeves, or roll down your sleeves, as long as the don't ask you to violate a higher order...like he can't (or shouldn't) order you to violate a published regulation. They can always order a "higher" standard. There isn't any regulation saying your hands MUST be in your pocket...so the 1st Sgt can order you not to, perfectly lawful.

[SSgt2651]

It is perfectly lawful for a 1st Sgt or any NCO to order to do something that isn't a published minimum standard. They can order you to roll up your sleeves, or roll down your sleeves, as long as the don't ask you to violate a higher order...like he can't (or shouldn't) order you to violate a published regulation. They can always order a "higher" standard. There isn't any regulation saying your hands MUST be in your pocket...so the 1st Sgt can order you not to, perfectly lawful.
I don't think they're arguing the legality. It was stated but not argued. The "argument" (not really an argument because they both agree) is one of common sense and practicality.

[BootGunny]

For haircuts - I'm all about the Marine Corps keeping the haircut regulations where they are right now. This is one of those areas where a tradition of higher standards and a distinct look really holds true. What I DON'T like is how the reality of an unspoken requirement to get a haircut every week is ignored. I'm not necessarily willing to argue for a $520 a year raise for all Marines for haircut purposes, but at the very least, all Marines should be able to have a $520 a year tax write-off for haircuts (a real one, not a barracks turbotax accountant one).

[Unregistered]

In regards to Born's saying that the medium/low rega aren't violating the order, that is technically incorrect. Per P1020.34G paragraph 1004.7.b(2), "Head hair will be styled so as not to interfere with the proper
wear of uniform headgear. Hair, which protrudes from beneath properly worn headgear in an unsightly manner, is considered excessive, regardless of length." To paraphrase, if your hair sticks out from under your cover (as it does in the low reg I wear every day), you technically have "excessive" hair.

[Born Invincible]

In regards to Born's saying that the medium/low rega aren't violating the order, that is technically incorrect. Per P1020.34G paragraph 1004.7.b(2), "Head hair will be styled so as not to interfere with the proper
wear of uniform headgear. Hair, which protrudes from beneath properly worn headgear in an unsightly manner, is considered excessive, regardless of length." To paraphrase, if your hair sticks out from under your cover (as it does in the low reg I wear every day), you technically have "excessive" hair.

There is no reason to paraphrase what is written. It says unsightly. Unfortunately one person's unsightly is another person's beautiful. That is the problem with this order it provides alot of ambiguity. I think that if you have hair that "poofs" out from the back of the cover like a peacock then you are wrong.If you wear a small cover over a low reg and it doesn't fit properly then you need a larger cover. Also slightly different topic I have been told that black Marines cannot have low regs, nor can they grow their hair to the 3" length. Why not? If my hair (I am black) looks unsightly at 3" then so does everyone elses, correct? Let's let commonsense prevail.

[Unregistered]

Better yet, grow up. An ear ring is a fad thing to show how cool ,are hip you are. But you must grow up sometime--now is the time to do it. Become your own man and let your actions speak for you and not a cheap peice of jewelry

[HardCorps103]

Well, although the tattoo policy is under scrutiny on an unrelated thread, I can't help but jump in. This was passed by a bunch of Marines who sit behind desks in a business type environment all day. If we are all professionals, are we professional riflemen (some of us are) or are we professional truck drivers (not that much of a change)? We are PROFESSIONAL WARFIGHTERS. If the Marine Corps is used to it's fullest extent, we are at WAR. Now, last time I checked, we don't wear short sleeves to a war. And lets put this in perspective as far as retention and recruitment. I'm not saying tattoos make you less qualified, but it sure as hell doesn't make you less qualified. So the drivers for the generals and SgtsMaj can't have tattoos, OK. So the generals staff can't have tattoos, OK. Officers can't have tattoos, OK. Two Marines up for SSgt. that have near identical records and fit reps and one has sleeves, the other might get the promotion, OK. If you make a statement that combat tours will impact promotion, AN UNCHANGELABLE CIRCUMSTANCE in many cases (Everyone who wants to go seems to not, while many complain of having to go another time), then it makes sense to have personal choices affect promotion. But now, as has always been the case, Marines are not regarded by how high their hair is or how well they iron their cover, but how they perform. Why should that change? I have tattoos and honestly, if the regulation hadn't been implemented, I would have had more by now. Amazingly, when I get more tattoos, my "workplace performance" doesn't drop a bit. The only way it affects me is the fact that I don't swim for my PT for a week or two because it sucks the ink out. Bottomline, earrings=eccentric and facial hair=they should extend the moustach out a little, but a goatee means another regulation and more paperwork. All this tattoo policy has done is make people get out (I will probably switch services so I can finish my art) and prevent people from getting in.

This is the response to the gay posting here quoted as saying tattoos make one look like "trailer trash." Do I come on your damned forums and tell you how I think that homosexuals degrade our military and is just an excuse for an easy out if you don't want to be in anymore? Do I go out of my way to say it's a disgusting, unnatural act that makes the people who do it less than men because they don't want women? No. Take your slander somewhere else, everyone has opinions, but no offense intended here, you're a civilian on a thread with topics relating not to just the military in general, but the Marines. You can't understand it by "knowing a couple." As far as "straight guys adopting gay fashions," I think fashion is gay...wear what you want, it's a free country for a reason. All I hear from you is more stereotypes...that's awesome, I'm just glad I'm not that narrow minded.

[HardCorps103]

"I'm not saying tattoos make you less qualified, but it sure as hell doesn't make you less qualified."


That made no sense...I meant, tattoos don't make you MORE qualified, but they don't make you less qualified either.

[Tool 1]

The commandant has proposed the following regulation:

If an off duty marine is crossing the street in civilian clothes, they must take proper precautions. Even if the crossing signal appears, the marine will stop before crossing the street. Apon coming to a complete halt, he/she will shout out loudy "roadguards, left, right....Post!!" If the civilians do not fire out to each side and halt traffic, even in Central Manhattan, the service member is not permitted to cross. Don't worry if you are run over by a yellow taxi, the almighty SGLI will cover you.

[Air Wing]

It's official, we can stop pretending that we know what the changes will be: https://www.marcorsyscom.usmc.mil/sites/mcub/PAGES/Grooming%20standards%20regulation%20change.doc

There are a total of 10 pages in Change 5 to MCO P1020.34G. As the saying goes, don't be the one.

[Unregistered]

There is no reason to paraphrase what is written. It says unsightly. Unfortunately one person's unsightly is another person's beautiful. That is the problem with this order it provides alot of ambiguity. I think that if you have hair that "poofs" out from the back of the cover like a peacock then you are wrong.If you wear a small cover over a low reg and it doesn't fit properly then you need a larger cover. Also slightly different topic I have been told that black Marines cannot have low regs, nor can they grow their hair to the 3" length. Why not? If my hair (I am black) looks unsightly at 3" then so does everyone elses, correct? Let's let commonsense prevail.

One thing I was taught during my 20 years was that if your small cover didn't fit your low reg then you need a DAMN haircut!! Also, I've never seen a reg that states differently for blacks and whites.

[Born Invincible]

you are right unregistered user man. but if you put on a medium or large cover and it fits problem solved. I personally don't care if my 1stSgt tellls me one of the Marines is wrong I make him fix it and I enforce whatever haircut my CO and or 1stSgt want enforced. Also the rule is pretty much again one of those "unwritten" rules. how many black Marines do you see with "faded afros"? not many. The few I have seen have approachede me about it. I have been bald by choice since SOI.

[Unregistered]

Being a Professional member of the most Elite Branch of the United States Military sets us apart from the other uniformed services. We are Marines. What we are not is the politically correct Army or the Navy or the Air Force. We are Marines and we should never forget that. We who have sweated out the swamps of Parris Island or endured the mountains of Camp Pendleton and have gave of ourselves for the benefit of a largely ungrateful nation have earned the title to be a member of this proud fraternity. Such duties require us to be a symbol of this nation. Such duties require us to honor our traditions and the sacrifices of those who went before us. Such duties require us to be ambassadors of our cause every day, all day. That is why we dont wear earrings, at all!That is why tattoos are frowned upon. That is why Marines look like Marines and everybody else looks like the rabble that they are.

Man Marines really are brainwashed to the point that they can't think for themselves....wow!

[Kronus]

I didn't read all of this, or any really.

I vote for Navy regs. The fact that a high and tight, a horseshoe, or any of the so called Marine Corps hair cuts ever became seen as "professional" amazes me. There's nothing professional about them. And actually, the "fade" is incredibly popular amongst gang members.

Shorter, neat hair. Off the ears, short sideburns. I think it much more professional and alot more practical.

[Unregistered]

Damn.......I remember the Series Gunny in PI breaking it off on me because I had a brain fart and put my hands in my pocket;take off them !@#$%^&* Army gloves Private!Glad to see the rules codified,though I did love my horseshoe.....gungy as hell!Things could also improve by bringing back liberty cards;simply have a couple of responsible NCOs eyeball the troops before libo call.Semper Fidelis brothers!

[Unregistered]

I for one am extremly happy to see the "horseshoe" outlawed. It was incredibly unprofessional looking. I hated that you were supposedly more moto if you had it, because there is no way it isn't considered eccentric.

As far as the pockets go, hey, you can still do it in war time, the article said so. Silly, really. The pockets are there to put stuff in, including my hands.

[Unregistered]

Everyone is getting up in arms over these new changes. The fact is, that these "changes" have not taken affect. When the Uniform Board releases the results of th board, it is in the form of a MarAdmin. As of today no such MarAdmin has been released. Then once the MarAdmin gets released, it has to be put into MCO P1020.34G, which still has not happened. As far as we all should all be concerned, these are still just rumors. I can bet you that right now a Marine is getting yelled at because he has a horseshoe haircut. This should not be happening just yet.

SSgt Wright USMC

[Kronus]

So, can I still wear my ultra low reg hair cut? You know, the one that allows me to look very similar to a civilian. The one where people question if I even got a haircut.

[Unregistered]

I feel that a majority of the regs are aimed at our African-American Marines. Many of you probably will not understand. But ask any young African-American Marine and they can better explain to you.

[Sgt. Deady T]

very interesting to read all of your opinions, As a former Marine myself, I have 11 tattoos over the years, mostly while out, but NONE show unless I were to wear less than a short sleeve polo type shirt. I still can look nice and neat at a corporate picnic or golf outing or ship baord cruise, whatever. However, when I want to go bark at the moon, most probably drinking with my crazy friends, well, that's another story. Girls come up and touch them and ask about them, bikers come up and say hey which blows my friends minds btw, bottom line being: as a conservative looking/dressing person of squared away appearance, you'll have a much easier time in the workplace, by that I mean promotions, the feeling that your boss gets, that he can trust you etc. Off duty I feel that men should be able to wear an earring, I myself have no desire to. However the pay for a burial thing is cool ! now I may consider it, being an old salt myself now, a pirate looks @ 40 kind of a lifestyle these days you see. Besides I have a black friend who it looks good on, one small diamond. Does which ear you wear it on still mean something ? I thought it used to. please enlighten me. The Torrential Rain Unit

[Get it Right]

I spent over 11 years in the Marine Corps and most of the standards I had no issue with. I find it apalling during this time frame, that the Marine Corps is putting such an emphasis on this instead of focusing on bigger issues like Iraq, and Marines not wanting to stay in. Instead of having a board that looks at grooming standards, take a walk through the barracks at Quantico (especially after it rains) and concentrate on improving the quality of life for the Marines. Rules and regulations are necessary in order to keep consistency and control but there are bigger problems that could be addressed and fixed. While your at it take a survey of Marines on health care and find out why it is so hard to get an appointment at the clinic or a referral to see a specialist when every time you try to get something done you have to deal with a rude civilian that could care less if you are being taken care of.

[Get it Right]

This is where you start running into issues, the "official" order and the ones the higher ups want to create "cause they said so". Uniformity is impossible without consistency.

[Get It Right]

BRAINWASHED. That could be farther from the truth, and by using that term you must have no prior military experience or belong to another branch. There are reasons why rules and regulations are set, yes some of them are a little strange, but it makes everyone the same, cohesion, despite the slogan you cant be an army of 1. The whole idea behind this is that everyone is a team there are no individuals, if you can't make an educated response then maybe you should frequent a different forum.

[Get It Right]

Yes I'm sure the "can have french manicures" is geared towards that area. People who actually take the time and look over the past few years how much the regulations have changed and become more strict will notice everytime Women Marines are hit harder. I see nothing in the article, in the previous orders about anything being geared directly towards African American Males, or African Americans in general. cause if that were the case there wouldn't be Dark Green Female Marines with braids, cornrows, and two different hair do's running around the base cause that it eccentric and unprofessional looking. Pretty much don't pull the race card, if you truly feel that way then maybe you should get out.

[Trevelyaninc]

All this thread did is made me go cut my hair. Semper Fi

[MtMav]

This retired Marine fully supports CMC/General Conway, the senior leadership of our Corps and the uniform board in tightening up, clarifying and expanding uniform and grooming standards. I trust SNCO's and Company grade Officers will aggressively enforce these standards.

[nrcupta]

You can’t tuck your can of chewing tobacco between your goggle strap and helmet, or use the watertight pouches often attached on the front of body armor. Cellphones can be stored in pockets instead of worn on belts. These are just few things and practices stated in the grooming standards. This must be followed to achieve that professional look and that is in accordance to your appearance, and that means it will look good on you. I see nothing wrong with this. Besides being the best damned fighting force the world has ever known, Marines of my era always took pride in presenting themselves to the public as the gentlemen they were, regardless of rank. :cool:


Air Force Boot Camp (http://www.boot-camp-101.com/) Information

[SSgt2111]

You can’t tuck your can of chewing tobacco between your goggle strap and helmet, or use the watertight pouches often attached on the front of body armor. Cellphones can be stored in pockets instead of worn on belts. These are just few things and practices stated in the grooming standards. This must be followed to achieve that professional look and that is in accordance to your appearance, and that means it will look good on you. I see nothing wrong with this. Besides being the best damned fighting force the world has ever known, Marines of my era always took pride in presenting themselves to the public as the gentlemen they were, regardless of rank. :cool:


Air Force Boot Camp (http://www.boot-camp-101.com/) Information

Finally some clarification to the 1020.34G, most of these regulations were for the most part were already there, but they were not spelled out in black and white. All in all I think these are good changes. I do however no forsee the chewing tobacco and pack regulations being to rigidly enforced in Iraq as a result of these changes. A good change all in all, but still a fluff change IMHO.

[Born Invincible]

I believe the regulations should have color photos of what the regulations are. Why is the ambiguous "sketch man" the guideline for our haircut and grooming regulations. This is 2007 for crying out loud!! Marine Corps step your game up!

Lets have specific examples of what "unsightly" is. They do not need to be the end all but the 070813 edition of Marine Corps Times had a great picture representation of what was now taboo. If the actual MCO P1020.3_ had that included it would help everyone maintain a standard and not an "ism".

Include a photo of "baggy" jeans and at the same time ban those rediculously tight jeans. The Male Marines and Sailors who have jeans that look painted on is definately unsightly, especially when i can tell if you are circumsized while looking at you. That is much more unprofessional than baggy jeans.

Clearer definition on the types of watches that are allowed in utilities.

And now for the most controversial, a ban on Charlies or Bravos for shore patrol overseas. The normal task while on shore patrol is to escort drunk Sailors or Marines out of bars and back to ships, break up fights, to walk your post for hours at a time, and other manual labor type tasks these are jobs for the utility uniform. I wore a Creighton charlie shirt that got torn while in the execution of my duties. That shirt is now useless. If your cammies get torn its acceptable to wear a patch or to see them sown up. In my opinion and the opinion of other SNCOs the service uniforms become unsightly when they have stitching in random places.

[Unregistered]

If your cammies get torn its acceptable to wear a patch or to see them sown up. In my opinion and the opinion of other SNCOs the service uniforms become unsightly when they have stitching in random places.

I totally agree about having pictures. But I'm not sure that I can agree with patching up cammies. I was always under the impression that your cammies being torn renders them unservicable.

[Born Invincible]

I totally agree about having pictures. But I'm not sure that I can agree with patching up cammies. I was always under the impression that your cammies being torn renders them unservicable.

Then let me introduce you to some facts. They are not unserviceable. Covering holes in your cammies with a pattern consistent patch is good to go.

[Born Invincible]

I spent over 11 years in the Marine Corps and most of the standards I had no issue with. I find it apalling during this time frame, that the Marine Corps is putting such an emphasis on this instead of focusing on bigger issues like Iraq, and Marines not wanting to stay in. Instead of having a board that looks at grooming standards, take a walk through the barracks at Quantico (especially after it rains) and concentrate on improving the quality of life for the Marines. Rules and regulations are necessary in order to keep consistency and control but there are bigger problems that could be addressed and fixed. While your at it take a survey of Marines on health care and find out why it is so hard to get an appointment at the clinic or a referral to see a specialist when every time you try to get something done you have to deal with a rude civilian that could care less if you are being taken care of.

The reason why we have a uniform board so we can have a "reflection" of the opinions of the Marine Corps on uniform topics. The same reason you have a facilities maintainance shop at Quantico to fix maintainance issues. The same reason there is a help desk for tricare or a chain of command at your clinic to voice concerns there rather than spewing randomness in a forum. If you have problems where you live discuss them there. If you have genuine concerns with uniform items discuss them here. If you have no comment that is relavant to the topic don't leave one.

[UKGEOFF72]

I am in the Army, get that out first. Yet I look at the Marine Corp and wish the Army would turn around and look at how you train and operate because some where in the last 15 - 20 years the Army got weak and full of pansy arses. I would like to see us have a tougher stand on appearence, military courtesy, and bearing. No earings on or off duty for any service. No tat's visible above the neck line. Drink age should be 18 for all military since wwe can die for this country, vote in this country we should be able to drink in this country. Any way about to get on a soap box and bust on all the stupid stuff that goes on in my service. Keep it real USMC..maybe one day the Army will get its head out of its forth point of contact.

[sparky7mp]

Well, I just finished reading the new Marine Times and I wanted to find out all the new Regs. I am not so wrapped around the axle with the hair tattoos or any thing else except the PT standard. When is the Marine Corps going to update the Female PFT to be equal with the Male PFT. I am a prior DI and OCS instructor and on average at Bootcamp the females score is 15 to 20 points higher than the male PFT's average. I have observed that only 5 to 10 out of 100 males can naturally do 20 pullups , the rest kill themselves in the gym to get there 20. Females on the other hand well over 50 to 60 percent can complete the 70 seconds dead arm hang naturally without lifting a dumbbell the whole year. The same goes for the Oak course males are told they cannot use the vertical poles to complete the oak course, however females are taught to use the vertical poles. If one cannot pull one's body weiight in boots and utes over a simple obstacle course, how can they pull themselves out of a burning Humvee or 7 ton with a full combat load. Does the flex arm hang really test one's strength or just the technique of locking ones triceps against their chest. Also how degrading is it for a Marine to have to bend down after doing his pullups for a female to step on his back and get well adjusted and locked into her perfect position for her flex arm hang. I have been hearing rumor mil for years that females would have to do some pullups then execute the flex arm hang. Also for promotion to Corporal and Sergeant the 70 seconds flex arm hang and you only doing 10 to 12 pullups naturally can turn into a difference of up to 3 months longer to get promoted. It seems like the Marine Corps leaders would evaluate stuff like this along with the body fat rules. Instead we are worried about horse shoes, where a dip can is stored.

[Jayflattop]

I can't understand the new guideline of Marines not able to wear the classic and traditional horseshoe flattop.

Sure, its a super short (and some may call extreme) haircut, but its clean cut and symbolic of the Marine Corps. I have worn a horseshoe flattop even with shaved sides and back, and never got any flack or problems. Not sure what caused this change. Off all those mentioned--earrinngs, tattoos, etc,---the horseshoe flattop should not have been in question at all and kept as a haircut for those who wish to wear it. Even civilans get horseshoes.

Any comments/replies to this and especially interested to hear back from you guys who wear horseshoe flattops.

Jay

PS---on this subject, can anyone tell where is the best civilian barbershop to get skintight USMC horseshoe flattops at. I travel alot for work, and its always great to know of a shop which does this great haircut without question and the need to beg to go shorter or take the top "down to the bone". Can any name a few shops some of you been to for or seen horseshoe flattops done at. Thanks much.

[Unregistered]

The horseshoe is a ridicules haircut and I do agree with the new standards eliminating it. Why would you cut your hair to look like you are balding? I do not see how that is symbolic of the Marine Corps in any way. I also feel its about time that they clarified female grooming standards more as most male Marines don’t have a clue. If the Marine Corps is trying to revamp polices they should have looked at the female PFT standards. I agree with the previous post that females do not have to work at getting 70 sec hang time. I am a female Marine and when I have a PFT coming up a week or two before all I have to do is do extra push ups or some light weights at the gym and 70 seconds is a piece of cake. A male that does 20 pull ups has to work out consistently very hard for that while a female can skate on by with minimal work. I do not understand why this has not been resolved yet. I really feel bad that so many of us females have 1 class PFTs for doing nothing. I don’t know exactly how it could be evened out, but I'm sure it would not be hard for the Marine Corps to conduct tests and have physical fitness experts solve the problem.

[SSgt2111]

I can't understand the new guideline of Marines not able to wear the classic and traditional horseshoe flattop.

Sure, its a super short (and some may call extreme) haircut, but its clean cut and symbolic of the Marine Corps. I have worn a horseshoe flattop even with shaved sides and back, and never got any flack or problems. Not sure what caused this change. Off all those mentioned--earrinngs, tattoos, etc,---the horseshoe flattop should not have been in question at all and kept as a haircut for those who wish to wear it. Even civilans get horseshoes.

Any comments/replies to this and especially interested to hear back from you guys who wear horseshoe flattops.

Jay

PS---on this subject, can anyone tell where is the best civilian barbershop to get skintight USMC horseshoe flattops at. I travel alot for work, and its always great to know of a shop which does this great haircut without question and the need to beg to go shorter or take the top "down to the bone". Can any name a few shops some of you been to for or seen horseshoe flattops done at. Thanks much.

The horseshoe has been eccentric for sometime anyways if you read the 1020.34G, even when it was the 34F the horseshoe was out of regulation. Most of these things are not really changes, just clarification. I however never had an issue with the horseshoe haircut and never chastised anyone for being out of regs (there were far to many Marines with them, cough SgtMajors). I do not understand why the latest emphasis on outlawing the horseshoe. It will be a curious thing to see in the weeks how many of these salt dog SgtMajors’ deal with what has been on their head since jesus was a private, twice busted down. I guess the new SgtMaj of the MC or the Commandant had a great dislike for the horseshoe. Not sure how hard this one is going to be enforced, just like the emphasis on the aftermarket day packs just about everyone is rocking now. I think many will look the other way, especially when it is a SgtMaj rocking the horseshoe.

[Sabotage]

I know plenty of Marines that wear ear rings and have tatts. Becaues you guys may not like it it is done all the time. And just because he is a MARINE that does not make him or her any more or less then any other service member in any other branch. We all have the same mission and that is to Defend and Serve. These guys may not wear them on base but they do wear them. Just like there are some marines that are drunks, spouse abusers, drug dealars, ..... What you are failling to understand is no matter what branch of service a person is in that branch is made up of people for the civillian sector with thoes habits.
The branches of service only reflect what we have in society today. So when we talk about how a marine, sailor,soldier, or airman walk on water, we better make sure which water they walk on. Most people will do what they want when not in uniform......

[Sabotage]

:cool:
Man Marines really are brainwashed to the point that they can't think for themselves....wow!

CRANK DAT SOLDIER BOY !!!!!! youuuuuu CRANK DAT SOLDIER BOY

[boydrh]

Has anyone ever looked at a the wall of Commandants that just about every Battalion/Squadron has in the command hallway? If a horshoe is "symbolic" of the Marine Corps, most of the Commandants didn't recieve the memo because most of those hard chargers had hair down to the shoulders and full beards.

[Unregistered]

First of all there are distinct differences between each branch of service and you cannot say that each branch is identical. While the services may have similar missions they are definitely not the same. Please, before you go stating what the objective of each service is, understand, thoroughly, what you are talking about before you spew regurgitated nonsense out of your mouth. Now that I've digressed, tremendously, from the original topic at hand, haircut regulation change, really? Is it really at the top of the agenda when we are fighting an unwinnable "war"? The Marine Corps needs to get its priorities straight, I'll fix all that when I enter Congress.

[Unregistered]

sparky7mp.. Being a Prior DI and OCS instructor you should have seen first hand that male and females have different strengths and weaknesses. Obviously the female PFT was created for a reason. I guarantee you a male would struggle doing a hang for 70 seconds. And how can it be degrading for a female Marine to stand on a Male Marines back when that Marine is helping another fellow Marine out? possibly if they could lower all the pull up bars so FEMALE Marines could use them instead of using the help of another Marine, that would be so much easier wouldnt it?

[ERIKAKIRE79]

sparky7mp.. Being a Prior DI and OCS instructor you should have seen first hand that male and females have different strengths and weaknesses. Obviously the female PFT was created for a reason. I guarantee you a male would struggle doing a hang for 70 seconds. And how can it be degrading for a female Marine to stand on a Male Marines back when that Marine is helping another fellow Marine out? possibly if they could lower all the pull up bars so FEMALE Marines could use them instead of using the help of another Marine, that would be so much easier wouldnt it?

If the bars were lower female Marines would still need help up because they
dont want to waste any energy pulling themselves into position. You are
correct that males and females have different strengths and weaknessses but
the female arm hang does not deal with it in a fair way.

[usmc_countrystyle]

my husband is a marine and i also am one. we were talking and trying to figuire out if the wedding band has to be plan or can it have something on it and still be wore? i know the female reg but i dont know the male one.

[usmc_countrystyle]

If the bars were lower female Marines would still need help up because they
dont want to waste any energy pulling themselves into position. You are
correct that males and females have different strengths and weaknessses but
the female arm hang does not deal with it in a fair way.

the bars are to high for us so ya we are going to need help. i know there are some females that do some pullups just to see if we can. i am one of those and i still ask for help when it comes to the pft. it is a fact of life we are suppose to help each other not be agianst each.

[owens2023]

my husband is a marine and i also am one. we were talking and trying to figuire out if the wedding band has to be plan or can it have something on it and still be wore? i know the female reg but i dont know the male one.

Yes, male wedding bands can have designs on them. They just have to be tasteful as to not detract from a professional military appearance.

[kojack]

bama the bigot and the dem-nazis in congress will through out all standards so you all will be allowed to display your prison and gang tatts(and be certain to get lots of piercings and ear rings and use lotsof hip-hop, rap racist profaniety. that adds to the professional military image also). always thought spider web tatts were prison tatts. They look great with a military uniform.

[Lone_NCO]

bama the bigot and the dem-nazis in congress will through out all standards so you all will be allowed to display your prison and gang tatts(and be certain to get lots of piercings and ear rings and use lotsof hip-hop, rap racist profaniety. that adds to the professional military image also). always thought spider web tatts were prison tatts. They look great with a military uniform.

....uh, thats F$#ked up, I just wanted to let you know that. If you are a Marine your wrong, and you had no business saying any of that. If your a man your ignorant...and if your a female, well...i'll retract my previous statements and go on about my day before someone politically correct goes off on me for telling a female shes wrong.

[ONeezy]

Ok Boydrh "Has anyone ever looked at a the wall of Commandants that just about every Battalion/Squadron has in the command hallway? If a horshoe is "symbolic" of the Marine Corps, most of the Commandants didn't receive the memo because most of those hard chargers had hair down to the shoulders and full beards."

Most of those Commandants were Commandant when the Grooming standards allowed long hair and beards. Try exercising some common sense.

As for the grooming standards and Tattoos, this is an issue I am torn on. I think grooming standards should be revised frequently to help to remove any confusion that arose in the previous instruction. I also feel as a Marine who has served over seas on two continents in two completely different threat levels that uniformity is great but operational security and situational awareness need better practice. what I mean by this is that in CONUS I think all Marines should have a Medium reg or higher. But over seas in countries like Korea, Japan, The Horn of Africa, or any of our many American embassies we so proudly guard i think the grooming regulation should be a little loose. Those who have served over seas have seen the AFN commercial about can you tell who is American or who is military and to be honest they all look like they could be in the military especially service members rocking a high and tight. That SCREAMS US MILITARY. The crew cut is both a professional appearing hair cut and a pretty universal style through out the world. While a desire for uniformity is all well and good lets practice what we preach and make our service members less of a target for terrorists in these foreign countries to consider targeting. I know when I fly on international flights I personally keep my Beanie or Hat on while on the Aircraft and in the Air Terminal. I may be out of regulation and setting a bad example to some of you but I cam keeping myself from being the first person shot if (heaven forbid) my plane or other means of mass transportation is targeted by a group of radical extremists.
As for earrings, I think male Marines should if they choose be allowed to wear earrings if they so desire. In uniform it should be with out a doubt a no go criteria. Sure a good deal of Marines are doing it when they go out on liberty that doesn't make it right. My question is though why isn't anyone raising hell about any of these Marines who are putting in a "Grill" when they go out to the clubs on the weekend? Say what you want in response to my comment here but the "Grill" is definitely something that should be considered eccentric. If you think I am crazy why don't you try wearing your "grill" to work next Monday and go talk with your SgtMaj or 1stSgt. See how long that conversation lasts. about this long: "Good Morn.... WHAT THE FUCK MARINE TAKE THAT @#$!% OUT OF YOUR @#$%^%$ @#$$% SUCK MOST RICKY TICK!!!!" end conversation. But what about all these Marines with a gold tooth. guess what a dental gold replacement or gold cap is authorized. A removable grill insert is not. suck it up and that that trash out of your mouth.


"Originally Posted by Unregistered
Man Marines really are brainwashed to the point that they can't think for themselves....wow!"

AS FOR THIS MORON, Marines are not brainwashed, they simply see the light in the knowledge that has been imparted on them by senior leadership. There are plenty of things Marine Corps related that Marines do not agree on you see Marines throwing up the B.S. flag left and right when people say something should be done a certain way. Marines are independent thinkers you just don't see it because you are either brainwashed, or you just like buying into anti-Marine Corps propaganda and have never actually sat back and observed day to day operations as conducted by the United States Marine Corps. The United States Marine Corps is constantly encourage the idea of small unit leadership. Brainwashed Zombies don't lead, only independent intelligent Marines capable of making informed and intelligent decisions about the given situation lead. Try educating your self before you spout off ignorant garbage that wastes my valuable time. I am on this page to see what other Marines think about the grooming regulations not to hear some anti-Marine hack bad mouth my beloved Corps. I don't sit online and bad mouth you and your fellow hippies on hippycrap.com all day. GET THE HELL OF THIS THREAD!

Semper Fi Marines!!!







"Our young Marines are just doing marvelous work. There was a time when some of us who are graybeards still on active duty looked at this generation and wondered if they were going to have what it takes. We called them the "Joystick generation" not enough PT, questionably enough discipline to be good Marines. Well, we were wrong, quite frankly. This is a wonderful generation. We've seen them in combat now. Their raw courage, there sense of team play, and their sense of sacrifice is as great as any that we've seen as a Corps. We are going to be in good shape for a long time to come as these young men and women continue to develop in more of the positions of responsibility."

General James T. Conway
34th Commandant
United States Marine Corps

[Silver Fox]

It's not that we allow it off base, it's that we can't stop it. You can tell the guy coming in the gate, "Hey, take your earing out." You can't do that down town. Unless you're going to ask every guy with short hair and an earing in if he's military.... which they'll probably just lie to you, and you're not really in a position to get their ID Card. They can pretty much blow you off.

[ONeezy]

actually you can tell the guy out in town to take his earring out if he gives you crap for it then you are in a posistion to take his ID Card. or there are other options... License plate number... base sticker ID on the car. those are if you are near the vehicle though. there are other options. Besides that Marine will only be able to tell so many people to pound sand before he runs into them in uniform. not to mention if you have a decent enough command presence the Marine will more than likely give you the I.D. Card.

[Silver Fox]

actually you can tell the guy out in town to take his earring out if he gives you crap for it then you are in a posistion to take his ID Card. or there are other options... License plate number... base sticker ID on the car. those are if you are near the vehicle though. there are other options. Besides that Marine will only be able to tell so many people to pound sand before he runs into them in uniform. not to mention if you have a decent enough command presence the Marine will more than likely give you the I.D. Card.


True, but as I said, that still involves asking random people if they're military.... you're going to look like a total nut, and I personally don't care enough about it to ask anyone in civillian clothes off base about it. Earings out of uniform don't bug me.

[KnoxRJ]

And isn't it lop-sided with all men who get beat up about not upholding the Corps' standards while females walk around relatively unscathed? Perhaps it is because not many care to learn the female regs, that the order says only one earring in each ear (yet I have seen several females with 2,3, 4 rings in a ear) or the proper length of finger nails is rarely upheld. etc. I despise it when a female says she does not want to look like a Marine because she wants to feel feminine. Well if that is the case then she needs to get out of the Corps and let those who do want to be a total Marine move up. Men, step up! Learn the order and enforce it on both genders. Women, show some back bone and pride and use some positive peer pressure and enforce the rules. Be Marines by God!

[SEMPERMAN]

I am old enough to remember when the only males who wore earrings were gay males. I am one of four male siblings, two of whom (myself and one other brother) are gay. Of the four, I am the only one never to have worn an earring. None of us have tattoos. And none of us has been in the military. I don't like earrings because they look feminine; if I was interested in that sort of thing, there are plenty of willing women. I don't like tatoos either. I think they make the wearer look like trailer trash, especially the women (not that I really care about that). I can think of one or two exceptions, but discretion prevents me from saying more. :)

So, given that the people who really make the rules in big organizations are my age (50) or a little older, I suspect that the USMC doesn't want its people looking like trailer trash, and certainly not like gay trailer trash. By the way, I've known a few gay Marines but none who wore earrings. Things used to be so much simpler, didn't they? I wonder what will happen one of these years when they find out that a lot of gay males wear short hair. I mean, that one's only been going on for 30 years or so, which I think is about how long it takes the military to become aware of changes in society. Mandatory ponytails, anyone? :cool:

p.s.: One of these days I'll figure out not just why straight guys eventually adopt gay fashions, but why they adopt the worst gay fashions. I'll never forget the time I was visiting a friend @ Camp Pendleton in the '70s and saw a bunch of Marines dressed up for a night at the disco, complete with platform shoes. Once I got over the shock, I coulda died laughing. Now I see all these straight guys with not just one earring but two of 'em. Whatever gets you through the night ... :D


Were you in the Navy?:banana: :banana:

[ZERO2111]

And isn't it lop-sided with all men who get beat up about not upholding the Corps' standards while females walk around relatively unscathed? Perhaps it is because not many care to learn the female regs, that the order says only one earring in each ear (yet I have seen several females with 2,3, 4 rings in a ear) or the proper length of finger nails is rarely upheld. etc. I despise it when a female says she does not want to look like a Marine because she wants to feel feminine. Well if that is the case then she needs to get out of the Corps and let those who do want to be a total Marine move up. Men, step up! Learn the order and enforce it on both genders. Women, show some back bone and pride and use some positive peer pressure and enforce the rules. Be Marines by God!


My Sgt and SSgt have no problem telling me that I'm jacked up, just like I have no problem telling a junior Marine (male or female) that they are jacked up. Stop acting like ALL female Marines are too weak and scared to call someone out for their mistakes.

[KnoxRJ]

Zero,
I never said ALL females were jacked up. I even went so far as to say "I despise it when a female says" A FEMALE. Not ALL. So get off your high horse and continue to square yourself and others away. And welcome to the board.

[USMClifestylenotajob]

Silver Fox,

Call me old fashioned but here's my solution. If you see a Marine walking around with an earring and you are 100% without a doubt sure that he's a Marine, simply rip that damn thing outta his ear. Think about it, the next day at work when he's asked what happened to his ear, do you really think he's going to self incriminate and say "well I was at a bar and some dude ripped out my earring"? I think not, because any one of his seniors, including myself, would say he got what he deserved, and by the way sign this page 11. And I'd be willing to bet it would be a painful enough mistake to not make again. Then again I only replied to this because I actually did this years ago when I was a LCpl, and when called into the SgtMaj's office I was commended for upholding the order and my next set of Pro's and Con's were kick *ss.

[CSBurns]

Silver Fox,

Call me old fashioned but here's my solution. If you see a Marine walking around with an earring and you are 100% without a doubt sure that he's a Marine, simply rip that damn thing outta his ear. Think about it, the next day at work when he's asked what happened to his ear, do you really think he's going to self incriminate and say "well I was at a bar and some dude ripped out my earring"? I think not, because any one of his seniors, including myself, would say he got what he deserved, and by the way sign this page 11. And I'd be willing to bet it would be a painful enough mistake to not make again. Then again I only replied to this because I actually did this years ago when I was a LCpl, and when called into the SgtMaj's office I was commended for upholding the order and my next set of Pro's and Con's were kick *ss.

You better be damn sure it's a Marine, otherwise your pro an cons won't mean shit when you are in jail for assault. The drama was a nice touch though.

[wzgriffith]

Silver Fox,

Call me old fashioned but here's my solution. If you see a Marine walking around with an earring and you are 100% without a doubt sure that he's a Marine, simply rip that damn thing outta his ear. Think about it, the next day at work when he's asked what happened to his ear, do you really think he's going to self incriminate and say "well I was at a bar and some dude ripped out my earring"? I think not, because any one of his seniors, including myself, would say he got what he deserved, and by the way sign this page 11. And I'd be willing to bet it would be a painful enough mistake to not make again. Then again I only replied to this because I actually did this years ago when I was a LCpl, and when called into the SgtMaj's office I was commended for upholding the order and my next set of Pro's and Con's were kick *ss.

This is some of the most retarded sh*t I've ever read. I think earings are gay as hell but seriously? Tear it out of his ear? I'm pretty sure if it was me, I would whop your ass for doing some crap like that, rank be damned.

[ares7]

Silver Fox,

Call me old fashioned but here's my solution. If you see a Marine walking around with an earring and you are 100% without a doubt sure that he's a Marine, simply rip that damn thing outta his ear. Think about it, the next day at work when he's asked what happened to his ear, do you really think he's going to self incriminate and say "well I was at a bar and some dude ripped out my earring"? I think not, because any one of his seniors, including myself, would say he got what he deserved, and by the way sign this page 11. And I'd be willing to bet it would be a painful enough mistake to not make again. Then again I only replied to this because I actually did this years ago when I was a LCpl, and when called into the SgtMaj's office I was commended for upholding the order and my next set of Pro's and Con's were kick *ss.

Please, I doubt you actually did that to someone. If you did that to me you wouldn't have any hands to be typing with right now.

[kojack]

Gentlemen! Gentlemen! This is no longer about the "appearance" of a uniform which "was" meant to make a group "uniform" and minimize individualism, but is now about being uniquely individual and celebrating it!! Hoorah!! Cant we all just "celebrate" the rich tapestry of diversity and recognize the spiritual strengths that arise when we RESPECT the individual changes that Service "person" makes to their uniform to celebrate their spirit???!!!!!

Change, change, change...pray to the obama and to the pelosi for they know best for America...

[Combat correspondent]

This last post has to be a joke... I celebrate diversity as much as the next but uniform, tatoo, or ear ring violations that directly go against established standards are not "diversity." They are "infractions" and could even be crimes.

[kojack]

This last post has to be a joke... I celebrate diversity as much as the next but uniform, tatoo, or ear ring violations that directly go against established standards are not "diversity." They are "infractions" and could even be crimes.

I was being cynical and making fun of the PC liberal flakes to make a point. Thats what I do. I cant stand seeing earrings and tatts on men and tatoos on women. Why would a man cover his neck, head and arms with tatts other then he WANTS to look like he was in prison. Why would a women wear tatts other than to look like a prostitute? Go figure.

[PogsRWorthless]

Personally I think grooming standards are just one more thing POGs can complain about. Some things should be enforced in the rear and ignored when more important things are at stake. Anyone who has been to combat (and I mean COMBAT not "Hey! I deployed!") knows how little a haircut or a shave plays a part in combat efficiency. I am sick of these do-nothing cowards chewing my men out in their little air condition chow halls because my men have not had time to shave their face. Do these SNCO POGs realize that my INFANTRY marines have been running COMBAT operations for several days straight? When these brave grunts have a little spare time, they have to choose whether they should use it to eat, sleep, or take a dump. A shave, haircut, and clean cammies are last thing on their minds. When lives are on the line, you have to disregard standards that are not pertinent. But I suppose a POG who does absolutely nothing related to combat would have no idea what I am talking about.

[ares7]

Personally I think grooming standards are just one more thing POGs can complain about. Some things should be enforced in the rear and ignored when more important things are at stake. Anyone who has been to combat (and I mean COMBAT not "Hey! I deployed!") knows how little a haircut or a shave plays a part in combat efficiency. I am sick of these do-nothing cowards chewing my men out in their little air condition chow halls because my men have not had time to shave their face. Do these SNCO POGs realize that my INFANTRY marines have been running COMBAT operations for several days straight? When these brave grunts have a little spare time, they have to choose whether they should use it to eat, sleep, or take a dump. A shave, haircut, and clean cammies are last thing on their minds. When lives are on the line, you have to disregard standards that are not pertinent. But I suppose a POG who does absolutely nothing related to combat would have no idea what I am talking about.

Sounds to me like you need a straw... It's not a POG's fault they scored higher on the ASVAB so they don't need to drag their knuckles around. BTW, if you put some gloves on, it should help protect your hands from cuts and scrapes and avoid infections. If you are too dumb to use them or have trouble figuring out which one is your left or right glove, then just stick to using Neosporin to avoid scarring. Oh yea, don't bother replying to me, I have a problem conversing with a grunt because it is like poking your eyes with a needle over and over again...plus it will save you the trouble from having to type with your index fingers. Idiot.

[ares7]

Personally I think grooming standards are just one more thing POGs can complain about. Some things should be enforced in the rear and ignored when more important things are at stake. Anyone who has been to combat (and I mean COMBAT not "Hey! I deployed!") knows how little a haircut or a shave plays a part in combat efficiency. I am sick of these do-nothing cowards chewing my men out in their little air condition chow halls because my men have not had time to shave their face. Do these SNCO POGs realize that my INFANTRY marines have been running COMBAT operations for several days straight? When these brave grunts have a little spare time, they have to choose whether they should use it to eat, sleep, or take a dump. A shave, haircut, and clean cammies are last thing on their minds. When lives are on the line, you have to disregard standards that are not pertinent. But I suppose a POG who does absolutely nothing related to combat would have no idea what I am talking about.

Oh yea, I left out.... Just get out of the fucking Marine Corps you worthless POS. We don't need ignorant people like you that are destroying our Corps. I believe Burger King or Wal-mart would hire you no questions asked. No computers or education need, except some math skills for counting but since you are probably a drug waiver you should know how to count money atleast. B****.

[Just1Mom]

Oh yea, I left out.... Just get out of the fucking Marine Corps you worthless POS. We don't need ignorant people like you that are destroying our Corps. I believe Burger King or Wal-mart would hire you no questions asked. No computers or education need, except some math skills for counting but since you are probably a drug waiver you should know how to count money atleast. B****.

You discount the fact that some "grunts" chose to be such, regardless of how they scored on their ASVAB. They chose infantry because they knew they would go to combat. Some actually enlist to do just that, as hard as that might be to believe. And it's those grunts that probably have the hardest time dealing with the sarcastic and/or demeaning comments you make implying that all grunts are idiots. A lot of those grunts have given up their lives because they chose not to use pens or pencils but to arm themselves and fight... and they did it to the very end.

[JD2780]

At the same time we can all agree that because somebody chose a different job other than grunt doesnt make them a coward. Not all grunts are idiots. Some are very smart and just wanted that experience. Some couldnt get anything other than that. Regardless they've got thier job and the people you refer to as POGs have thiers also. There are alot of POGs going out and fighting these days. They do so with less training and less experience than the infantryman. Now I'm not an infantryman, nor am I even in the Marine Corps. I'm just tired of hearing joes and Marines look down upon the "POGs" and the other way around. Just an outsiders view.

[Just1Mom]

I agree, and not being in the military either, I do recognize that each branch is made up of the infantry and the support. There is no way missions could be successful without both. But the poster who referred to grunts being idiots was a slap in the face to all those who have given their lives to defend this country, regardless of branch of service. And I do not refer to these other than grunts as POGs, rather the poster that I replied to did. I knew Marines who enlisted that felt as though they weren't Marines because they didn't see combat. But I was quick to remind them, that they too played a vital role in the success of missions. I just think the grunts get the least respect because they are perceived as unable to get a different job based on thier scores, and that is so far from the truth. A lot of grunts chose that path even though they knew it wouldn't help them a whole lot from a career standpoint, unless of course, they were remaining in the Service. Whatever the reason that compelled them, I think they have the most udnerappreciated and difficult job in so many ways. But that certainly doesn't mean that the support personnel isn't essential to their success on the battlefield.

[PogsRWorthless]

Did I upset a POG? Haha. I'm sorry. Just take solace in the misconception that all grunts are idiots who scored low on the ASVAB. Your are just like the POG recruiter who asked me, "Why the hell are you joining the infantry?" Your cowardice mind cannot even comprehend the "will" to fight. Oh, and by the way, what do you think the special forces have for their ASVAB scores....... Thank you for SERVING.

[JD2780]

Worthless dont worry i know what SF guys are worth since thats my world anyhow. We've got support people that bust their asses. Whats funny is there are plenty of Marine infantry that respect thier "POG" brothers. They may be asking that question why the hell do you want to go infantry not for cowardice but because of the way of life. Living in the field constantly can suck. Some people really enjoy it. You're one of those elitist Marines that have an issue with ANYBODY who isnt a Marine infantryman. Guess what in combat its a joint effort to make sure everybody comes home. Depending on who gets tasked it may be an AF aircraft over head providing cover. That a/c wouldnt be there if it werent for the "POG" that got the a/c ready in time to meet the timeline. I'm an AF JTAC. By definition of the term "POG" i would fit in that world. I however, control airstrikes. I've done it along side of Marine and Army infantry and SOF units. I'm just a POG that doesnt fight though. Might want to open up some Joint Doctrine and get a lesson or two.

[ares7]

You discount the fact that some "grunts" chose to be such, regardless of how they scored on their ASVAB. They chose infantry because they knew they would go to combat. Some actually enlist to do just that, as hard as that might be to believe. And it's those grunts that probably have the hardest time dealing with the sarcastic and/or demeaning comments you make implying that all grunts are idiots. A lot of those grunts have given up their lives because they chose not to use pens or pencils but to arm themselves and fight... and they did it to the very end.

Why are you commenting on my posts? Have you read his? Do you not find that more offensive? I'm sorry, you just do not understand. I do not have a problem with grunts and I do not believe anyone's job is more important than any other. I have a problem with this grunt though. I wish I could find his recruiter so I can slap him for letting come in the Corps. And also, there is such a thing as an "open contract" Marines that were duped into signing.

[Just1Mom]

Why are you commenting on my posts? Have you read his? Do you not find that more offensive? I'm sorry, you just do not understand. I do not have a problem with grunts and I do not believe anyone's job is more important than any other. I have a problem with this grunt though. I wish I could find his recruiter so I can slap him for letting come in the Corps. And also, there is such a thing as an "open contract" Marines that were duped into signing.

Actually I do find that poster's message offensive. The way I look at it, and as I mentioned before I am not in the military, but all the parts of the Marine Corp, or any branch, make up the whole and that is how they are successful. I apologize if I took your message out of context. There are those who are grunts that get along just fine with those who are not but in any MOS you always have to have one JERK who can be so obnoxious it somehow becomes the norm for that MOS which is not usually the case. I know grunts and POG's as you call them, can joke with one another about their respective jobs, and in normal cases, get along. The only exception to this rule may be those in the Marine Band or those playing Sports for the Marines. I'm not really sure how much they contribute to the outcome of a mission. :-)

I must admit, I laughed at the part you said about finding his recruiter.

[Toogr82h8]

I just think the grunts get the least respect because they are perceived as unable to get a different job based on thier scores, and that is so far from the truth.

This thought could not be further from the truth. Infantrymen get all the respect from their seniors as well as other MOS's. On top of that a majority of the money goes to division and the wing because those are the units that are directly involved in combat operations. Granted the job cant be done without support but we know where the rubber meets the road.

The disrespect that rises is due to ignorant Marines such as the poster stirring up all this animosity. The excuse of combat and standards for POG's is very old and invalid.

Believe it or not many of the SgtMaj's and Generals who are developing policy and directing leaders to enforce it are former infantrymen and infantry officers. Combat experience is a big factor in promotion to senior ranks.

It is obvious that it is poor leadership to chew a Marines ass for not shaving when he just got off a patrol. This though is just an excuse to stereotype a POG as being an idiot who only cares about the beauty of the rear. The reality is that non-infantry MOS's have just as much of a problem with dumb rules while in country. Why is that? Well because we make contact runs outside the wire for days at a time, occasionally we see combat too believe it or not. Then when we get back we also get to deal with someone bitching about haircuts or placing your weapon on the deck.

This behavior has nothing to do with MOS and everything to do with boredom. When Marines get bored they make rules, because they can. Quite some time ago, probably well before our POG hater was thinking of being a Marine. I was in an Infantry Unit who had a SgtMaj obsessed with grooming standards even when we were kicking down doors and living out of our vics. This particular individual was, guess what, a 1369 prior to becoming a 1stSgt. Sorry to burst your bubble but even grunts can become micromanaging on dumb things when they get bored.

[Just1Mom]

Well Said SSgt!!!!

[Toogr82h8]

Well Said SSgt!!!!

Thank you and I know I quoted you but it obviously was not all directed just at you. Also you mentioned the band and sports. While I do agree with you on the band the sports things can actually be any MOS.

If a command releases a Marine to compete in the All-Marine program then they are TAD to that team for a prescribed time I believe 1 year is the max although I may be mistaken. After that they have to go back to their MOS. The reason the Marine Corps doesnt consistently win in inter-service sports is because we dont recruit specifically for it like other services do.

[PogsRWorthless]

Why is that? Well because we make contact runs outside the wire for days at a time, occasionally we see combat too believe it or not. Then when we get back we also get to deal with someone bitching about haircuts or placing your weapon on the deck. ....even when we were kicking down doors....

...contact runs.... wow. What the hell is a 1341? "Victory Through Logistics!!!!"

[Toogr82h8]

...contact runs.... wow. What the hell is a 1341? "Victory Through Logistics!!!!"

I applaud your ability to only pull one line out of a post and further assure everyone of your stupidity. Yes a contact run, its what we do when your gear breaks down and we ensure you dont get ambushed.

It is obvious that you are only here to ruffle feathers. If you wanted to make a difference in the issues you describe you would articulate your comments in a way that might get people to listen. Instead all you do is get the harsh comments of those you offend. You wont get an emotional response from me as I am used to individuals like you. Maybe at some point you will meet some of your peers at PME or god forbid an event in which they save your life and will understand more clearly to joint effort the military is. Until then carry on with your rants as you provide some entertainment.

[JD2780]

This pogsrworthless dude is an asshat. People shouldnt respond to his babbling.

[CORNELIUSSEON]

The one grooming standard I would change is male Marines being not allowed to wear an earing while in liberty attire. This regulation is out dated and does not make any sense. Liberty attire should be neat, clean and conservative as if you were in the uniform of the day. The wearing of an ear ring for male Marines is not considered conservative nor appropriate for the occasion. However, Marines who have "sleeve" tattoos which are visiable while in uniform are considered to be neat, clean and conservative. Not only that, the tattoos are considered appropriate for the occasion. A Marine standing at the main gate with a "sleeve" tattoo depicting a spider web on the elbow, barbed wire around the forearm, and writing up and down the arms presents a neat, clean and conservative while waving car through the gate? Yet, a Marine in pressed trousers and dress shirt, belt and polished dress shoes wearing an earing does not present a neat, clean, or conservative look?

The Marine Corps has a long tradition of sea service, which continues today. One sea service tradition that was around during 1776, when the Marine Corps was founded, was the wearing of a gold loop or stud in the ear. The purpose was for those who died in battle to pay for a decent burial; the gold loop or stud was the accepted payment.

The other services allow their male service members to wear earings while in liberty attire.

Sorry, but you are generalizing. Army Regulation 670-1, Chapter 1, Paragraph 14, Subparagraph c., says the following on that subject:

"c. Body piercing. When on any Army installation or other places under Army control, soldiers may not attach, affix, or display objects, articles, jewelry, or ornamentation to or through the skin while they are in uniform, in civilian clothes on duty, or in civilian clothes off duty (this includes earrings for male soldiers). The only exception is for female soldiers, as indicated in paragraph 1–14d, below. (The term “skin” is not confined to external skin, but includes the tongue, lips, inside the mouth, and other surfaces of the body not readily visible).

So the only time when Army men may wear earrings is OFF POST.
.

[JD2780]

In the AF they're not allowed to wear earings while on liberty. I've got one whole to poke in your example of the tradition from 1776. You now have SGLI to pay for your burial. Granted the tradition arguement is good, but the burial portion kind of cuts your legs out form under you.

[BlackShoe]

The Navy doesn't allow for men to wear earrings at any military facility- in principle, including the Navy (owned or rented) van that takes you out on liberty while away from home port. In the real world, male Sailors can wear earrings, but they have to be taken off before returning.

As far as other locations, I had a male shipmate who was once caught by the Master Chief - onboard - with nipple rings. Watching the way he was escorted to the XO's office made me wince; I can only imagine how the Sailor felt about it.

The Navy has a long tradition of sea service as well, but I've never known a Sailor that intended to pay for anything with his earring.

[ELNONIO]

In regards to hands in the pockets, I have only heard that General Krulak said this. I was in during his tenure and do not remember reading anything with my own eyes. I have not heard any of his predecessors mention any guidance in regards to having ones hands in pockets, either for or against. Do you have any articles or references you can provide?

Ductus exemplo, right? No quote, but at the CMC's visit to DLI, on a bright Monterey day (i.e., overcast and rainy), in garrison, his hands were squarely in his pockets.

Having said that, all these "silly rules" have some sort of combat relation; sometimes obvious, sometimes a little contrived. Hands in pockets means hands not on your weapon or other important gear. All in all, a bad habit to break.

Earrings? Give me a break. The slippery slope theory says that next you'll be arguing that a 2" diamond stud is just as professional as a (heck, I don't know, some other earring type).

Haircuts? Shaves? Go back to combat driven rules and good hygiene habits. It's understood that in garrison the need is gone, but a good habit takes consistent application. Heck, I have often turned the car around upon noticing a less than stellar shave (and my wife still laughs at that) but it doesn't happen often because the habit is now almost automatic, and so it will be should the SHTF.

[ELNONIO]

In the AF they're not allowed to wear earings while on liberty. I've got one whole to poke in your example of the tradition from 1776. You now have SGLI to pay for your burial. Granted the tradition arguement is good, but the burial portion kind of cuts your legs out form under you.

Actually, SGLI is paid to your named beneficiaries. Whether they use it to pay for your burial or not is up to them... We have a burial benefit to help defray some of the costs.

[CORNELIUSSEON]

Ductus exemplo, right? No quote, but at the CMC's visit to DLI, on a bright Monterey day (i.e., overcast and rainy), in garrison, his hands were squarely in his pockets.

Having said that, all these "silly rules" have some sort of combat relation; sometimes obvious, sometimes a little contrived. Hands in pockets means hands not on your weapon or other important gear. All in all, a bad habit to break.

Earrings? Give me a break. The slippery slope theory says that next you'll be arguing that a 2" diamond stud is just as professional as a (heck, I don't know, some other earring type).

Haircuts? Shaves? Go back to combat driven rules and good hygiene habits. It's understood that in garrison the need is gone, but a good habit takes consistent application. Heck, I have often turned the car around upon noticing a less than stellar shave (and my wife still laughs at that) but it doesn't happen often because the habit is now almost automatic, and so it will be should the SHTF.

Actually, hands in pockets dates from the days when our uniforms didn't have pockets. When pockets were added, the Regulation was amended to mention pockets, and the rule against putting one's hands in them. It is a matter of now your posture looks with your hands in your pockets. Haircuts and Shaves came from the days when military fashion changed. Originally, beards, mustaches and long hair were perfectly acceptable. As a matter of fact the term "Burnsides" originated from the style set by General Burnside in the Civil War. In our military, persons who are of the Sikh faith are still authorized to wear beards, mustaches and long hair, as well as the turbans they have become famous for. As a matter of fact, the Army will issue them a length of Black cloth to wear in place of the Beret. The only reason why Beards are considered a problem is the myth that you cannot get an effective seal with a Protective Mask. As a Retired 74D, I can tell you that that myth is indeed just a myth. As for Jewelry, that is a Gender issue. Females can wear ONE set of earrings, and the PX carries a set of earrings that females can buy that meet Regulation requirements.

[NRTrackChamp2004]

Ductus exemplo, right? No quote, but at the CMC's visit to DLI, on a bright Monterey day (i.e., overcast and rainy), in garrison, his hands were squarely in his pockets.

Having said that, all these "silly rules" have some sort of combat relation; sometimes obvious, sometimes a little contrived. Hands in pockets means hands not on your weapon or other important gear. All in all, a bad habit to break.

While I see what you're saying and truthfully can't argue with that. From a nasty lil lance corporals point of view. I will anyways. I like the analogy of the hands not being in pockets because they should be on your weapon. Makes perfect sense. But, when you're in a non-deployable unit and the only time you see a weapon (in uniform) is on the range, once a year. That's not a good enough reason for me. Give me a weapon, I'll hold it properly. Until then, if my hands are empty, and I'm standing around, chillin, I'll have a hands in my pockets.

[CORNELIUSSEON]

While I see what you're saying and truthfully can't argue with that. From a nasty lil lance corporals point of view. I will anyways. I like the analogy of the hands not being in pockets because they should be on your weapon. Makes perfect sense. But, when you're in a non-deployable unit and the only time you see a weapon (in uniform) is on the range, once a year. That's not a good enough reason for me. Give me a weapon, I'll hold it properly. Until then, if my hands are empty, and I'm standing around, chillin, I'll have a hands in my pockets.

I see your Boot Gunney didn't properly break you in. When I was in Army Basic, the Drill Sergeants didn't bother preaching on this subject. It was just that whenever they caught someone with their hands in their pockets, they were dropped for 25. If they were blockheads, they kept getting dropped until they woke up to the connection between the two actions and stopped putting their hands in their pockets. Pavlov would have been proud.

[NRTrackChamp2004]

I see your Boot Gunney didn't properly break you in. When I was in Army Basic, the Drill Sergeants didn't bother preaching on this subject. It was just that whenever they caught someone with their hands in their pockets, they were dropped for 25. If they were blockheads, they kept getting dropped until they woke up to the connection between the two actions and stopped putting their hands in their pockets. Pavlov would have been proud.
I guess it should be said, when you're in a lax environment, you tend to be lax. (I do NOT mean that in a comparison to theater and garrison. I mean that in a way where regulations are half-ass/never enforced). If I were actually reprimanded for having my hands in my pockets, then I might reconsider my opposition on the situation.

[CORNELIUSSEON]

I guess it should be said, when you're in a lax environment, you tend to be lax. (I do NOT mean that in a comparison to theater and garrison. I mean that in a way where regulations are half-ass/never enforced). If I were actually reprimanded for having my hands in my pockets, then I might reconsider my opposition on the situation.

Well, as SSG William L. Carr - my Basic Training Platoon Drill Sergeant - told us 43 years ago, Disicipline begins with YOU. If your NCO Superiors aren't doing their job, then demonstrate what's wrong by doing your job. I am aghast to hear that you are emulating your slack-jawed superiors, instead of providing the example for your Squad. I'm NOT saying that you should go all ape on your squad, just show them that you really do know what it means to be a Marine. I can tell you from personal experience as an Army NCO that leading by example it does work.

[NRTrackChamp2004]

How did I know you would make the statement setting the example? Damn, I must be some genius. :rolleyes:

I currently only work with 2 other Marines. I hold no leadership position whatsoever. We're all 3 LCpl's. And please don't give me the bullcrap of stepping up. I know you look at it from a totally different point of view, cause it's easy to when you've "been there, done that" and start preaching shit when you yourself were probably lax when you were in. Either way, I'm not going to argue about my shitbagness. I know who I am and what I'm capable of, and what type of Marine I am and will be. Question what you will, by all means, make some assumptions too, purely based on a website forum and the information you interpret.

[CORNELIUSSEON]

How did I know you would make the statement setting the example? Damn, I must be some genius. :rolleyes:

I currently only work with 2 other Marines. I hold no leadership position whatsoever. We're all 3 LCpl's. And please don't give me the bullcrap of stepping up. I know you look at it from a totally different point of view, cause it's easy to when you've "been there, done that" and start preaching shit when you yourself were probably lax when you were in. Either way, I'm not going to argue about my shitbagness. I know who I am and what I'm capable of, and what type of Marine I am and will be. Question what you will, by all means, make some assumptions too, purely based on a website forum and the information you interpret.

As to my having been lax when I was "in", I can certainly agree that some things I learned back in basic were modified over time by experience, and yet hands-in-pocket isn't one of them. I sill have a reflex action phobia for putting my hands in my pockets, to the point where I buy at least four pairs of winter gloves each year to make sure I never am forced to put my hands in my pockets to keep them warm. As for you and your fellow Lance Corporals, you are NOT all "equal". One of you three is the Senior Lance Corporal in the room since one of you will have longer Time In Service and Time In Grade than the other two. That being true, it also remains true that the Senior Lance Corporal in your situation is RESPONSIBLE for the behavior and actions of the other two, and while it sounds unlikely from what you say, it is still possible for the Senior person to be Disciplined for not disciplining his Juniors.

BTW, before you ask, if the three of you were all sworn in at the same time. T.I.S. would reflect your placement on the your orders to Boot Camp. Likewise, if you were all "Made" on the same day, again your placement on the Promotion Orders would establish your T.I.G. for Responsibility purposes.

[NRTrackChamp2004]

Wow..... you're really trying, after I asked you not to. Your insistance that someone MUST be a leader and act as such. Since you're so gosh darn serious and adamant about it, guess who that senior Lance Corporal is....... think REALLY hard..... it's gonna surprise you..... and it's gonna hurt your heart to know it...... This guy. But, again, as I said in my last post. I'm not gonna argue about this with you. You aren't in my office. You don't know who I am, the type of work we do, or the people we work for. You don't see that no matter what I, or any one of us for that matter does, it's seemingly unimportant. We're all looked at by our faults. Because when one name, out of 500, is misspelled on a roster, all 3 of us are labeled as retarded and "can't do shit". But low and behold when that person makes a mistake, they'll do everything under the sun to prove otherwise.

Again, refer to my last sentence to my last post. But, when time comes where I actually have some sort of leadership responsibilities, there's no doubt in what I'll do and how it'll get accomplished. But, something as retarded as hands in pocket while you're smoking and joking with your buddies, who gives a fuck. If you're at a ceremony or other type event in your service or blues uniform, then there's a problem. There's a time and place for everything, when to be lenient and when to be hard.

[CORNELIUSSEON]

Wow..... you're really trying, after I asked you not to. Your insistance that someone MUST be a leader and act as such. Since you're so gosh darn serious and adamant about it, guess who that senior Lance Corporal is....... think REALLY hard..... it's gonna surprise you..... and it's gonna hurt your heart to know it...... This guy. But, again, as I said in my last post. I'm not gonna argue about this with you. You aren't in my office. You don't know who I am, the type of work we do, or the people we work for. You don't see that no matter what I, or any one of us for that matter does, it's seemingly unimportant. We're all looked at by our faults. Because when one name, out of 500, is misspelled on a roster, all 3 of us are labeled as retarded and "can't do shit". But low and behold when that person makes a mistake, they'll do everything under the sun to prove otherwise.

Again, refer to my last sentence to my last post. But, when time comes where I actually have some sort of leadership responsibilities, there's no doubt in what I'll do and how it'll get accomplished. But, something as retarded as hands in pocket while you're smoking and joking with your buddies, who gives a fuck. If you're at a ceremony or other type event in your service or blues uniform, then there's a problem. There's a time and place for everything, when to be lenient and when to be hard.

First of all, as I learned the hard way from dealing with this forum for a while, no one here is going to give you any slack just because you don’t like the way the discussion is going.

The best way to avoid dealing with issues you don’t want to deal with here is to refrain from raising them here. Once you raise the issue here, it becomes fair game for discussion, and you don’t get to solely frame the discussion.

Next of all, I had a hunch that you were the senior Lance Corporal since you seem to be the only one of the three who worries about the subject enough to raise it here.

Next of all, from all the hints you have dropped along the way, I will guess that you are in a Clerical MOS, and I certainly do understand the perils of being in a clerical MOS. Until I moved from Transportation Management Coordinator after 10 years to Chemical Operations Specialist, I had ample opportunity to understand the OPORD with a missing paragraph; The Travel Order with a missing person; a unit’s frustration with being made to unload an equipment train and reload it according to the Regulation and the Load Plan I worked so hard to formulate; and – most galling – having to work until dawn on the re-write of a DEROS roster for a unit that is expected to board their homeward-bound plane in two hours. Believe me, I do understand the perils of a Clerical MOS. However, so what? I had learned long before that that is all part of being in the service, and – if I couldn’t deal with those frustrations - then I really didn’t belong here. That said, unlike you, I never shied away from leading where it was required. Persons who don’t want to lead don’t go anywhere near Chemical Operations Specialist, and my unit asked me to take over the vacant slot, and I said yes immediately.

As for you wanting a Pity Party because you don’t view being senior Lance Corporal in an office of Lance Corporals as a chance to display Leadership Ability, displaying an attitude like that won’t help you when the time comes for your next Evaluation. Whenever the time comes to promote people, or allow them to re-enlist, you are only as good as your last Evaluation, and showing continuous Leadership Ability certainly helps you get over the hump.

[NRTrackChamp2004]

First of all, as I learned the hard way from dealing with this forum for a while, no one here is going to give you any slack just because you don’t like the way the discussion is going.

The best way to avoid dealing with issues you don’t want to deal with here is to refrain from raising them here. Once you raise the issue here, it becomes fair game for discussion, and you don’t get to solely frame the discussion.

Next of all, I had a hunch that you were the senior Lance Corporal since you seem to be the only one of the three who worries about the subject enough to raise it here.

Next of all, from all the hints you have dropped along the way, I will guess that you are in a Clerical MOS, and I certainly do understand the perils of being in a clerical MOS. Until I moved from Transportation Management Coordinator after 10 years to Chemical Operations Specialist, I had ample opportunity to understand the OPORD with a missing paragraph; The Travel Order with a missing person; a unit’s frustration with being made to unload an equipment train and reload it according to the Regulation and the Load Plan I worked so hard to formulate; and – most galling – having to work until dawn on the re-write of a DEROS roster for a unit that is expected to board their homeward-bound plane in two hours. Believe me, I do understand the perils of a Clerical MOS. However, so what? I had learned long before that that is all part of being in the service, and – if I couldn’t deal with those frustrations - then I really didn’t belong here. That said, unlike you, I never shied away from leading where it was required. Persons who don’t want to lead don’t go anywhere near Chemical Operations Specialist, and my unit asked me to take over the vacant slot, and I said yes immediately.

As for you wanting a Pity Party because you don’t view being senior Lance Corporal in an office of Lance Corporals as a chance to display Leadership Ability, displaying an attitude like that won’t help you when the time comes for your next Evaluation. Whenever the time comes to promote people, or allow them to re-enlist, you are only as good as your last Evaluation, and showing continuous Leadership Ability certainly helps you get over the hump.

I'm not "new" to forums. I'm quite well aware of what happens and the askings of such are never met. I merely said it more sarcasm that actual upsetness because you didn't listen.

Yes, I am Admin. That isn't the problem. My problem is who I work for. I'm not going to explain that any further.

As far as a pity party..... No siree, Bob. I don't want anyone to feel sorry for me. I don't think I've expressed that in any way shape or form that I want someone to. I don't get evals. My last pro/son marks were 4.6/4.6, while working here. My next promotion, is pretty much a gimme, I'm score chasing. If you wanna talk about that meritorious shit, save it for another day :)