Marines: New martial arts requirements

[CommunityEditor]

Nearly seven years after the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program began, tens of thousands of Marines still have not earned their entry-level tan qualification belt.

The commandant signed a Corps-wide message Monday to change that.

Tan belt qualification — the first in a training sequence that progresses through gray, green, brown and black belt certification — will be required by year’s end, according to AlMar 34/07.

Commandant Gen. James Conway’s message also raised the bar on war fighters, requiring all infantrymen to earn green belts and everyone in combat arms fields, such as artillery, tanks and amphibious assault vehicles, to reach gray belt certification by the end of 2008.

Joe Shusko, a retired lieutenant colonel and director of the Corps’ Martial Arts Center for Excellence, said he considers aviation Marines “combat arms” under the commandant’s guidance and included members of the Individual Ready Reserve in Conway’s reference to “all Marines, both active and Reserve.”



Article: http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/07/marine_mcmap_requirements_070717/


Have you met the requirement? How long did it take? Is Conway's action necessary?

[Sgt D]

The requirement is a good one. Marines have had more than enough time to acheive their Tan Belts, I can't imagine what the excuse could be to justify someone not getting at least the lowest level qualification. There are some important skills and techniques shown in the training that could help save your life in a combat situation. Unless you are "One of the few few" who is hiding from Combat Deployments, these are skills that you may be using in the near future. As I said beofre, there is no excuse for not getting at least the lowest MCMAP qualification.

[Sgt Canales]

there truely isn't any excuse. i couldnt agree more with what the Commandant has instructed. it's time to put the pedal to the medal. not only does MCMAP give outstanding training in close quarters combat, mental strenght, team work, and leadership skills. its great for the over all morale, and confidence of all Marines! as a black belt myself, i have learned that it is more than just "cool" moves, its taking pride in our Corps, and the training they are PAYING US FOR!!! in my journey i learned more leadership, teamwork, and awareness than any where else in the Marine Corps. i aplode all the Marines who have sacrificed there bodies, and time away from thier families to become instructors, and intructor/trainers. let's get to it!!!

[Marine702]

There are some exceptions that one can not control. While stationed at MCRDPI, all the admin Marines were not allowed to go to a MCMAP course. I was there 3 years as a PFC-LCpl and I wasnt afforded the opportunity along with many other Marines because of the recruit environment being much more important. I then was on MSG and we even had Marines on both posts that were certified instructors yet, for some reason were werent allowed to be certified by them while on MSG. Also while stationed at the Pentagon (2005-2006) pretty much was the same thing, the mission there was high viz. I had SNCOs that would see me with my Web Belt and I would even make fun of it by calling it my 2ndLt Belt and ask to train and that too was a no go. I just currently arrived to MCB Quantico and just earned my Tan Belt, Requal'ed Expert since 2003, and completed my Swim Qual all within 2 months. So, Yes, there are some "exceptions" or "excuses". If everyone was allowed to be certified at every duty station regardless of what mission needed to be accomplished I believe that all the Marines would at least be Tan Belt certified.

[Unregistered]

I definitely think it's a great idea to make it mandatory for all. I totally agree with Marine702's idea of having this be able to be done at all duty stations. If it's going to be a mandatory qualification, then having the facilities to train all Marines, no matter duty station is necessary.

[Unregistered]

If you are going to teach hand-to-hand techniques, then by all means do so with the acknowledgement that the battlefield has changed. Men and women, supply clerks and snipers, Privates and Captains all may some day be in the position to use their own hands and feet to defend themselves. I will never dispute that fact. E-tool defensive tactics ring a bell? The rudimentary training I received when I first came in the Corps was laughable. What's even more laughable is the current MCMAP and belt color system. Give me a break. This is like any Tae Kwon Do academy out in town. Let's compete for a colored bit of cloth! How pathetic. Get rid of the belt system. Integrate the training to everyone, at every level. But understand that unless it's practiced with regularity, such as once or twice a week, most of these skills are perishable. And the humorous notion that kicking each other in the shin a couple of times will produce a Jean Claude Van Damme with shins of iron a la Bloodsport or whatever that stupid movie was, is flat out wrong.
I will never deny the martial arts I practiced placed a huge emphasis on knowing your power, controlling it, and assessing dangerous situations better than I had ever learned in life. But the current popularity contest with colored belts is a condescending blow to a down-and-dirty approach to saving your life, or disposing of an enemy. Before you implement this mandatory training, think about a different approach.

[Unregistered]

Aviator MOSs now considered combat arms? What a joke! Grunts, arty, tanks/tracks, combat engineers don't get to fly around all day. Just because you may occasionally drop a bomb or shoot a missile from an aircraft doesn't even put you near the same level as a combat arms guy. When will pilots learn they aren't ground pounders (even though most wish they could be)?

[Unregistered]

What a wast of time think about it is it really practical to use this with 100 pounds of gear on. The wasted time should be used for language training and improved shooting skills. who has time to train properly in MCMAP no deploying MOS's, That is the jobs that dont require a 7 month deployment then prep in the same amount of time for another 7 month deployment. MCMAP is practical for those few Marines who also get to obtain a degree on their off time. In the end there are better ways of using our Marines time.

[BootGunny]

MCMAP is a quality program, and when instructed and implemented in the manner in which intended, is very valuable to the warrior ethos and spirit. There's some things you simply have to do as a Marine, and those things are a big part of what sets us apart. That being said, I don't necessarily know that making it a "requirement" for those in the IRR is pragmatic, fair, or even realistic.

[Born Invincible]

Wow I have heard alot of naysayers with regards to the MCMAP program but none quite as uneducated as one of the unregistered posters. 1st off MCMAP is a great program. If you think you can be competitive against a professional Kick Boxer, Jiu Jitsu, or MMA artist based off what you learned in MCMAP you are sadly mistaken. The good news is MCMAP is not based on you havign to fight those types of people. MCMAP is taught for the average person who has little to no hand to hand combat skills or experience. It is designed so that even the 5 foot nothing 90lb female admin clerk can be just as lethal as the 6' something 200+ lb grunt on the battlefield given flak kevlar and a weapon. The program of MCMAP has belt levels so that you can mark your progress not so you can wear some type of badge of courage around and flaunt your "badassery". I have learned through training in various forms of martial arts (Kung Fu San Soo, Muay Thai, Boxing, Brizilian Jiu Jitsu, Su Bak Do, and Karate) that MCMAP incorporates many of the same fundamentals and techniques that are taught in todays more popular martial arts. The thing is I as a Marine don't have time to master all of the martial arts that are compiled in MCMAP so a panel of subject matter experts got together and formulated and in some casses reformulated groups of techniques which can be easily done by the majority of Marines and here is the big part by Marines in Combat Gear (i.e. flak, kevlar, and duece gear, with T/O weapon). I have fought in numerous tournaments and single event fights as an amateur and the big thing that wins fights is aggression not skills learned in the dojo. Good thing for my fellow Belleau Woodsmen is that that is usually soemthing we don't lack, tenacity in battle. True or false if you have a karate black belt who is afraid of getting hit or hitting someone else he is goign to be less effective than someone with minimal training who has heart and drive to defeat his opponent?

In my training as an 03 I realized if you have a plan you will succeed against those who don't. As the saying goes the worst carpenter is generally the one with no tools in his tool box. MCMAP puts tools in the combatants toolbox. I say all that to say this if you look at MCMAP for what it is rather than comparing it to a single Martial Art, and you have any idea what it means to FIGHT someone not spar in a same art display (ie Karate vs Karate or some Taekwondo tournament) then you will realize that MCMAP is a viable form of self defense even when not applied to the battlefield. I am blackbelt instructor who has literally trained and trained with hundreds of Marines and Sailors, and to see alot of these guys and gals go from no skill to atleast having some confidence in the fact that they can defend themselves is priceless.

After all that is said and done I feel that making it a requirement to be tan is quite fair. There is no way that a Marine should not be tan belt. There is no command that requires it's individuals to work 24 hours a day 7 days a week 365 days a year. I don't mean on call I mean in the field or office. Hell there are Infantry Marines in Iraq earning belts. I say that to say this. If you really wanted a MCMAP belt and your command had an instructor you could have gotten with said instructor during your libo time. I have trained countless Marines on MCMAP before reveille or from 1600 to taps. If your instructor is worth the tan or red stripe on his belt he will make himself available especially in commands that time is critical during working hours. FYI it takes a little over 24 hours of accumulated MCMAP training to test for Tan belt. If done properly two hours a day in less than 3 weeks (5 working days a week) you too can be a tan belt warrior.

[SSgt2111]

MCMAP is a quality program, and when instructed and implemented in the manner in which intended, is very valuable to the warrior ethos and spirit.

Very true, unfortunately MCMAP is more often then not only practiced and sustained during a belt progression, I think very few Marines and Commands have MCMAP Sustainment training very high on their "things to do list". It is indeed a perishable skill as others have mentioned. Unfortunately I think it is more of a check in the box for a lot of Marines. Many Marines get the belt and never maintain their proficiency.

[Born Invincible]

Very true, unfortunately MCMAP is more often then not only practiced and sustained during a belt progression, I think very few Marines and Commands have MCMAP Sustainment training very high on their "things to do list". It is indeed a perishable skill as others have mentioned. Unfortunately I think it is more of a check in the box for a lot of Marines. Many Marines get the belt and never maintain their proficiency.


I was just discussing this with my Company XO last week. Oddly enough we came up with a solution. The platoons will do MCMAP sustainment once a week minimum in conjunction with PT. I have in the past, and have gotten away from only recently, done Fartlick runs that incorporated MCMAP techniques. In past units after a Company or higher level PT/hike event we as a company would engage in comabtive exercises like sparring (usually ground or pugil sticks). They teach integration of training in MAIC and unfortunately various constraints have forced some instructors to take short cuts. If one goes by the order sustainment is not something one only does during a scheduled belt progression.

[SSgt2111]

I think there should be an addendum to almar 034/07, something with a stipulation to the effect any Marine not in compliance with the guidance will be non-recd for promotion. There will of course be rare exceptions, MSG’s, independent duty, etc. They would have to seek a waiver from HQMC. What do you think Born?

[RAYRAY4421]

I would first and foremost to say the enforcement of the original intent of the MCMAP program is long overdue. I think that there should be more than just a mandatory acquirement date but mandatory annual training. How about combining the MCMAP re-certifications with the Rifle Range? Most units have a "grass week" in which most Block Training is completed, i.e. PFT, Gas Chamber, and Swim Qual. Why not devote the first two hours of that day to MCMAP? At the end of the week you have 10 hours towards your recertification. That would make more sense, then just saying everyone needs to be qualified. There is no sense in being qualified if you don't continue the training.

[Born Invincible]

I think there should be an addendum to almar 034/07, something with a stipulation to the effect any Marine not in compliance with the guidance will be non-recd for promotion. There will of course be rare exceptions, MSG’s, independent duty, etc. They would have to seek a waiver from HQMC. What do you think Born?

A meeting of the minds makes me wish we had the power to strike "Man Law". I think that the non-lethal training the MSGs learn can be transfered some how. Or have MTTs to go visit the independent duties to lock on training. If a Marine isn't at least tan he is wrong. Or he should be given a timeframe (6 months) upon returning to the FMF/Operating Forces to achieve tan, grey or green belt. Lastly if you achieve the belkt minimum you should be given a point boost for your Composite Score and for every belt above the minimum you should receive another boost. Is that fair for 03s? Yes. Why, because on average if you are not in the field or some school you have a lot of down time. Or enough downtime to get Green belt.

[RiggerMan]

Am I the only one that misses LINE training. I sure did enjoy a good heel strike to the face. It was just satisfying somehow.

[SSgt2111]

Am I the only one that misses LINE training. I sure did enjoy a good heel strike to the face. It was just satisfying somehow.

The problem with LINE training was a lack of offical guidence or enforcement of sustainment training and progression in the skill. I think there were probably a handfull of Marines (relatively speaking) truly proficient at LINE training. Of course this could just be my skewed perception as the units I was with never did any type of LINE training, perhaps there were others that vigerously pursued the discipline.

The problem with LINE training was a lack of official guidance or enforcement of Sustainment training and progression in the skill. I think there were probably a handful of Marines (relatively speaking) were truly proficient at LINE training. Of course this could just be my skewed perception as the units I was with never did any type of LINE training; perhaps there were others that vigorously pursued the discipline.

I will admit, to this day I remember what limited LINE training I received during Boot Camp and MOS school more then I do my MCMAP. If I remember correctly the push to switch from LINE training to MCMAP was the result of the creator of LINE training wanting some exurbanite amount of money to use the program after a contract expired or something to that effect, this is all here say, so perhaps it was just scuttlebutt.

[Born Invincible]

I will admit, to this day I remember what limited LINE training I received during Boot Camp and MOS school more then I do my MCMAP. If I remember correctly the push to switch from LINE training to MCMAP was the result of the creator of LINE training wanting some exurbanite amount of money to use the program after a contract expired or something to that effect, this is all here say, so perhaps it was just scuttlebutt.

You can still do a good vertical stomp or axe stomp to the face. These moves are still in MCMAP. The problem with LINE was in boot camp atleast P.I. circa 1998 they only taught lethal techniques, they put more focus on distracting techniques ("Grab, twist, pull, grab") than the actual move itself. Or atleast those are the problems i saw. I like MCMAP because there is a progression in the moves. The moves for the next belt build off the moves taught in the previous belt. In LINE training there was no way to know what was taught to a person. Now I can look at a BTR or the persons belt and I as a SNCO, leader, or training NCO know what a certain Marine or Sailor should be able to do as far as techniques are concerned. Also the big focus is on moves but when in LINE training did you learn character discipline? When in LINE / CCI did you learn to focus on knowledge?

Also to answer the question posed before I believe you should be non-rec'd for any promotion if you don't meet the standard. This includes ensuring the LCpls and Cpls have completed Fund of MC Leadership, all Marines pass the PFT not just if he/ she has a certain MCMAP belt. I have seen Marines promoted without completing a single MCI... how is that possible?

[SSG Army at Al Asad]

BLUF: I want to say to all you Marines out there how much I admire the Corps. I really didn't have much respect for Marines till my 2nd OIF deployment. You know, other members of my service (Army Natl Guard) will whine, grip, and bitch about the length of Marine, Navy, and Air Force deployments (7, 6, and what was 4 months, respectively) as opposed to ours (at the time we left Al Asad it was 12 months, "boots on ground") but BLUF, the Marines worked (at least the ones I interacted with) harder than any of us. I commend the Corps for the discipline and bond that they instill in their recruits. Now, regarding MCMAP: I had never heard of this program till a Marine LtCol explained it to me. The Army should also have a program like this. If you look at the ground forces we are primarily using in this GWOT, these "warriors" could gain considerable confidence, not to mention skill, that is taught in this program. I have been a "weekend warrior" (Army Natl Guard) for 25 years now. I can't remember any type of hand-to-hand combat techniques being taught in Basic Training. Maybe they did that with the males, as I am a female? Who knows, but the battlefield has changed. Females are at as much risk of encountering the enemy as males. I bet the Israeli army teaches these combat techniques to their females. I'm probably TOO OLD now to train in a martial arts discipline (I'm 46), but I do workout 5-6 times a week. I'm even taking a kickboxing class, but that's mainly for the cardio benefit. I have a personal trainer who would like to know the requirements for the tan and green belt. She is the kickboxing instructor. Would anyone be willing to share this program with me? I thank you in advance for your consideration. :cheers:

[Funkymustafa]

Try contacting someone listed here.

http://www.tecom.usmc.mil/tbs/Pages/MA/default.htm

[SSgtAllen3381]

[QUOTE=SSG Army at Al Asad;56415]BLUF: I want to say to all you Marines out there how much I admire the Corps. I really didn't have much respect for Marines till my 2nd OIF deployment.

How could you NOT have respect for Marines? This is not to start a pissing contest, but come on now? :confused:

[Corps Dad]

I'm probably TOO OLD now to train in a martial arts discipline (I'm 46), but I do workout 5-6 times a week. I'm even taking a kickboxing class, but that's mainly for the cardio benefit.
I don't think that a person is ever really too old to train in martial arts. It just takes a little longer to heal when injured. LOL

Seriously, you're doing pretty well (it sounds like) with the cardio kick boxing. At least you're training. That's far more than most people do. Just keep it up.

With me (I'm 46 also), it's been keeping my training up and making sure that I don't self-inflict injuries by training improperly. Hyper-extending the joints has been a big one with me. My first instructor didn't teach me properly, and now my joints hurt me quite a bit.

Bottomline: As has been said before, MCMAP is good stuff. It requires - like anything else - continued effort to maintain proficiency. Use it or lose it.

[USMCGRIZZ]

Re Aviators trained in martial arts: Not sure about the current war but in Vietnam more than a few aviators (fixed wing and chopper) hit the ground in unfriendly territory with little weaponry at hand. As a former 7557 and a Vietnam Vet pilot I can tell you any additonal training would have been helpful. Re the unregistered's comment about pilots really wishing they were 0311 was only true when the engines crapped out or parts started going AWOL in mid flight. Every Marine has his assignment and all assignments are important.

A mustanger

[Corps Dad]

Re Aviators trained in martial arts: Not sure about the current war but in Vietnam more than a few aviators (fixed wing and chopper) hit the ground in unfriendly territory with little weaponry at hand. As a former 7557 and a Vietnam Vet pilot I can tell you any additonal training would have been helpful. Re the unregistered's comment about pilots really wishing they were 0311 was only true when the engines crapped out or parts started going AWOL in mid flight. Every Marine has his assignment and all assignments are important.

A mustanger

Well said, mustanger. :thumbup:

[bomber1379]

How about a special martial arts program for the aviation support side of the house? Maybe there are some special holds or kicks that we could learn to help us break torques on stubborn aircraft bolts. I don't think it should be part of promotion, a lot of us are never going to use it. Training for these belts and sustainment won't ever be found on the wings list of things to do.

[SPARTICUS]

There is really no excuse for not having at LEAST a GRAY belt for the SNCOs of the "Old Corps". I've been in the Marine corps for 4 years and am already a Brown Belt, and I am not in a combat arms MOS nor am I in a POG unit. I'm in a Tank Bn. There are PLENTY of opportunities for ANYONE to move up in belt at least to gray or green. It's when you get into the brown and black belt's does it start getting hard for you to find an instructor qualified to certify you. I think there should be a certain number of instructors and instructor-trainers T/O to a unit so that there is AMPLE opportunity to qualify for MCMAP. Also, take into consideration that if you are suppose to be doing MCMAP every week and there are STILL people who aren't Tan belts? Sounds to me like commands are either not following the guidelines or we have some skaters on our hands.

[bomber1379]

There is really no excuse for not having at LEAST a GRAY belt for the SNCOs of the "Old Corps". I've been in the Marine corps for 4 years and am already a Brown Belt, and I am not in a combat arms MOS nor am I in a POG unit. I'm in a Tank Bn. There are PLENTY of opportunities for ANYONE to move up in belt at least to gray or green. It's when you get into the brown and black belt's does it start getting hard for you to find an instructor qualified to certify you. I think there should be a certain number of instructors and instructor-trainers T/O to a unit so that there is AMPLE opportunity to qualify for MCMAP. Also, take into consideration that if you are suppose to be doing MCMAP every week and there are STILL people who aren't Tan belts? Sounds to me like commands are either not following the guidelines or we have some skaters on our hands.

You have to try swinging with the wing!

[Born Invincible]

How about a special martial arts program for the aviation support side of the house? Maybe there are some special holds or kicks that we could learn to help us break torques on stubborn aircraft bolts. I don't think it should be part of promotion, a lot of us are never going to use it. Training for these belts and sustainment won't ever be found on the wings list of things to do.

Lazy is as lazy does. if you don't want it to happen it won't. I am with 31st MEU and the ACE found time to do some training. If you can PT you can conduct MCMAP training. By the order it is not allowed to conduct the old school "block training" format of MCMAP training that is much more traditionally associated with MCMAP. If you don't have any instrcutors you can send a grey belt to the course you will lose him for 3 weeks. There is no unit that i can think of that can't let a Marine go for 3 weeks.

[bomber1379]

Lazy is as lazy does. if you don't want it to happen it won't. I am with 31st MEU and the ACE found time to do some training. If you can PT you can conduct MCMAP training. By the order it is not allowed to conduct the old school "block training" format of MCMAP training that is much more traditionally associated with MCMAP. If you don't have any instrcutors you can send a grey belt to the course you will lose him for 3 weeks. There is no unit that i can think of that can't let a Marine go for 3 weeks.
It's useless to me, that's all I'm saying. For the job I do, I think it would be better to have my guys lifting weights getting huge. That will help the mission way more than kicking and punching. Getting bombs loaded for the guys on the ground.

[Sgt0656]

It's useless to me, that's all I'm saying. For the job I do, I think it would be better to have my guys lifting weights getting huge. That will help the mission way more than kicking and punching. Getting bombs loaded for the guys on the ground.

In case you forgot your job is a Marine and any one of us could be placed in
a situation outside of our normal duties. I think it should be considered for promotion
its another way to weed out the people who are trying to skate on by.

[bomber1379]

In case you forgot your job is a Marine and any one of us could be placed in
a situation outside of our normal duties. I think it should be considered for promotion
its another way to weed out the people who are trying to skate on by.

I think it's ridiculous, why don't we make grunts get turn quals and plane captain while we are at it too...

[Ordie]

Nearly seven years after the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program began, tens of thousands of Marines still have not earned their entry-level tan qualification belt.

The commandant signed a Corps-wide message Monday to change that.

Tan belt qualification — the first in a training sequence that progresses through gray, green, brown and black belt certification — will be required by year’s end, according to AlMar 34/07.

Commandant Gen. James Conway’s message also raised the bar on war fighters, requiring all infantrymen to earn green belts and everyone in combat arms fields, such as artillery, tanks and amphibious assault vehicles, to reach gray belt certification by the end of 2008.

Joe Shusko, a retired lieutenant colonel and director of the Corps’ Martial Arts Center for Excellence, said he considers aviation Marines “combat arms” under the commandant’s guidance and included members of the Individual Ready Reserve in Conway’s reference to “all Marines, both active and Reserve.”



Article: http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/07/marine_mcmap_requirements_070717/


Have you met the requirement? How long did it take? Is Conway's action necessary?

I've met the requirements for the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program. In 2001 when the program was in its infancy I attained the Grey Belt level. It took me having to work a 12 hour shift and then training for a few hours after work for several weeks to earn my belts. In 2005 I attended the Martial Arts Instructor course; three weeks of the toughest training I've ever been involved in. By the end of 2006 I reach Black Belt. It was a personal goal to atleast be at the level of Brown Belt as a SNCO under the previous guidance set by our former Commandant.
The only complain I have as an instructor and in the aviation field as that in order for me to train my unit to Grey Belt will take a huge sacrafice. As Marines when we are given a mission we complete that mission, and that is what I intend to do without sacraficing the program's philosophy. I am one of two instructors in my unit and am currently pleading to other SNCO's to allow qualified NCO's to attend MAI school. That alone will not get my unit qualified. In the aviation side of the house ground training gets put off until the last possible moment. The flight schedule takes priority.
I agree with the Commandant partially. Tan belt yes, but Grey belt is pushing it. We can't even get 100% of our Marines ground training complete. A good example is the rifle range. We are riflemen first--so why is it that we can't get all of our Marines to the rifle range. Let alone have block training for the squadron to allow Marines to go to the rifle range. I'm already working my Marines 12+hour days in order to conduct physical training (3 hours per week according to MCO). However, I've always been taught that Marines find a way. I personally don't mind working more hours, I love what I do and I love being a Marine and that is why I continue to re-enlist. Nevertheless, most Marines enjoy their time off and their family time. Some of this training should be conducted during working hours. Grunts train all day and are afforded the opportunity to do Martial Arts and Combat Training. Aviation MOS's also train all day and for combat. Our role is very different to that of ground units. We train to keep aircraft in the air and we train in technical matters. As far as combat training--well we do that as well just differnt than that of the ground units.

[Funkymustafa]

I wonder if they had actually examined the number of available MAI and MAITs when they drafted this proposal. It's been shown that the air wing, if they do get classified as "combat arms" under this ruling, is going to have trouble getting everyone to gray belt without sacrificing other training essentials. And let's be honest, if it's between MCMAP and rifle time, that's not even a choice, you head to the range. My question is how do they expect the infantry to all obtain green belts by this time next year, factoring in the operational tempo which doesn't look like it will be changing anytime soon, predeployment training, regular baseline training, etc etc. What if you only have 2 or 3 qualified instructors in a battalion, are you going to have them working 20 hour days on this? Are you going to pull green belt 03's out of their units by the dozens to do the MAI course so you have more instructors? What about forward deployed units, guys on ship, MEUs? What about 03's who are scattered around in B-billets, schools, etc...how are you going to get them? There's no way a DI or recruiter would have the free time unless they're going to be getting blood choked and joint locked next to their recruits. Don't even get started on the reserves...honestly attempting to cram all of this into one year seems like it will be a massive clusterfuck.

[ninebreaker]

i'm a lcpl with a green belt. i'm trying to get my brown belt, but there is no waivor for me. i don't understand why i have to get promoted in order to better myself as a marine? if the marine corps trusts me with equipment and a rifle, than obviously i'm responsible enough to handle a brown belt. can anyone please explain this to me>

there are answers but none that you would like

[LeaderOfMarines]

In case you forgot your job is a Marine and any one of us could be placed in
a situation outside of our normal duties. I think it should be considered for promotion
its another way to weed out the people who are trying to skate on by.

So you are saying that a Marine that has COMPLETED a b-billet but is still a grey belt should be promoted behind a Marine who has COMPLETED a green belt or higher in MCMAP without a b-billet? How about do something for the corps besides body hardening.

[CplH5811]

MCMAP is a joke. If I ever find myself in a situation that would dictate the need for hand-to-hand combat, I'm not going to be concerned about whether or not I have properly assumed the "basic warrior stance" first. Also, when it comes down to it, we all will use whatever we are able to in order to disable our enemy first by any means needed. Weapons of opportunity are always your best bet. But, I could see some Marine getting his ass chewed because he didn't yell "kill" while slashing at someone with his bayonet. Because that's where our Corps has arrived. But, that is for another thread.

My point is this, get into a fight with someone that is just the same as you and use your MCMAP. One of two things will happen. 1) you will only win because your opponent is laughing so hard and you beat him up as he fell to the ground. Or 2) you will get the crap beat out of you and lay there wondering why your vertical hammer fist came back at you when he simply pushed it right back at you. And, like I have seen several others post, it's not always physically possible with the full combat load on. I don't think time-outs are given in combat for someone to strip down to boots and ute's.

[USMC_8156]

MCMAP is a joke. If I ever find myself in a situation that would dictate the need for hand-to-hand combat, I'm not going to be concerned about whether or not I have properly assumed the "basic warrior stance" first. Also, when it comes down to it, we all will use whatever we are able to in order to disable our enemy first by any means needed. Weapons of opportunity are always your best bet. But, I could see some Marine getting his ass chewed because he didn't yell "kill" while slashing at someone with his bayonet. Because that's where our Corps has arrived. But, that is for another thread.

My point is this, get into a fight with someone that is just the same as you and use your MCMAP. One of two things will happen. 1) you will only win because your opponent is laughing so hard and you beat him up as he fell to the ground. Or 2) you will get the crap beat out of you and lay there wondering why your vertical hammer fist came back at you when he simply pushed it right back at you. And, like I have seen several others post, it's not always physically possible with the full combat load on. I don't think time-outs are given in combat for someone to strip down to boots and ute's.

What's your solution then? It is easy to sit and complain about how easy and stupid MCMAP is, but it's hard to explain what a better replacement is. The fact of the matter is that a lot of Marines enter the Corps without having ever been in a fight before, or having any formal training. If you have never had to throw a punch, how else are you going to teach them? Yes, standing in the BWS and throwing a horizontal hammer fist feels ridiculous. However, if you are in a position where someone is pulling you backwards and your left arm is pinned, then that may be all you have. The purpose of the basic moves in MCMAP is to familiarize you with them.

I've been involved in marital arts of various forms for about 15 years, and I can tell you that every single one introduces newcomers the same way MCMAP does: repetition of simple moves and techniques. One of the strengths of MCMAP is that it borrows from some of the striking arts and still incorporates jujitsu ground moves which were previously lacking from any well rounded basic training system. Most people would not know how to execute an arm bar, which is an extremely effective way to detain someone without killing them that is taught to every police officer, without going through the gray (?) belt.

Am I saying MCMAP is the greatest martial art in the history of the world? Nah. Several martial arts do it better, Krav Maga and certain forms of Wing Chun Kung Fu come to mind. The Russian forms that were adopted by Spetsnaz are pretty intense too. But on an all around beginner martial art, MCMAP isn't that bad. It provides newbies with basic technique, conditioning, and most importantly experience against another human being.

So again, what's your solution smart ass? Do you want to do TKD wearing a full combat load since that's what you assume you will be wearing? How about we immediately take every Marine into the most difficult level of BJJ, since you are too hard for learning the basics. Or maybe we should just scrap the whole thing and assume that Marines have enough hand to hand experience from when they were a civilian. I guess as an MP you don't need to know how to put someone in a chicken wing, or use a proper come along or take down either, do you?

[CplH5811]

What's your solution then? It is easy to sit and complain about how easy and stupid MCMAP is, but it's hard to explain what a better replacement is. The fact of the matter is that a lot of Marines enter the Corps without having ever been in a fight before, or having any formal training. If you have never had to throw a punch, how else are you going to teach them? Yes, standing in the BWS and throwing a horizontal hammer fist feels ridiculous. However, if you are in a position where someone is pulling you backwards and your left arm is pinned, then that may be all you have. The purpose of the basic moves in MCMAP is to familiarize you with them.

I've been involved in marital arts of various forms for about 15 years, and I can tell you that every single one introduces newcomers the same way MCMAP does: repetition of simple moves and techniques. One of the strengths of MCMAP is that it borrows from some of the striking arts and still incorporates jujitsu ground moves which were previously lacking from any well rounded basic training system. Most people would not know how to execute an arm bar, which is an extremely effective way to detain someone without killing them that is taught to every police officer, without going through the gray (?) belt.

Am I saying MCMAP is the greatest martial art in the history of the world? Nah. Several martial arts do it better, Krav Maga and certain forms of Wing Chun Kung Fu come to mind. The Russian forms that were adopted by Spetsnaz are pretty intense too. But on an all around beginner martial art, MCMAP isn't that bad. It provides newbies with basic technique, conditioning, and most importantly experience against another human being.

So again, what's your solution smart ass? Do you want to do TKD wearing a full combat load since that's what you assume you will be wearing? How about we immediately take every Marine into the most difficult level of BJJ, since you are too hard for learning the basics. Or maybe we should just scrap the whole thing and assume that Marines have enough hand to hand experience from when they were a civilian. I guess as an MP you don't need to know how to put someone in a chicken wing, or use a proper come along or take down either, do you?

Hmmmmm.... I think I struck a nerve. Now, there are some usefull things that MCMAP does teach but, not all of it is applicable in a combat environment which is what we are expected to do. I personally feel that if anyone is put in a combat situation, then natural instincts will take over and self-preservation will cause them to do whatever is needed to eliminate a threat. They don't have to be taught how to throw a punch. Marines are fighters. If someone is afraid that should they find themselves in the position to need to fight hand-to-hand they will be unable to perform, then they shouldn't be in the military. Plain and simple. And I don't recall saying that we needed a replacement for MCMAP. I don't think that it should be required for every Marine. And as an MP, I am taught control techniques that aren't included in MCMAP, some of that are however are part of the requirements for gray belt. So, if I am being taught gray belt and pass it, shouldn't I get it when I graduate MP school? Or, would that not be very fair? The point is, the system is flawed, as usual, and it doesn't matter if a Cpl has a better idea. It won't change. So, why bother sitting around thinking about how I can change a program that I won't use if it won't change?

[USMC_8156]

Hmmmmm.... I think I struck a nerve. Now, there are some usefull things that MCMAP does teach but, not all of it is applicable in a combat environment which is what we are expected to do. I personally feel that if anyone is put in a combat situation, then natural instincts will take over and self-preservation will cause them to do whatever is needed to eliminate a threat. They don't have to be taught how to throw a punch. Marines are fighters. If someone is afraid that should they find themselves in the position to need to fight hand-to-hand they will be unable to perform, then they shouldn't be in the military. Plain and simple. And I don't recall saying that we needed a replacement for MCMAP. I don't think that it should be required for every Marine. And as an MP, I am taught control techniques that aren't included in MCMAP, some of that are however are part of the requirements for gray belt. So, if I am being taught gray belt and pass it, shouldn't I get it when I graduate MP school? Or, would that not be very fair? The point is, the system is flawed, as usual, and it doesn't matter if a Cpl has a better idea. It won't change. So, why bother sitting around thinking about how I can change a program that I won't use if it won't change?

You'd be surprised what one NCO with a better idea and the ability to express himself can do. A senior Sergeant (later promoted to Merit SSgt) wrote a point paper on how he though the MSG program should be completely revamped and restructured. A couple of months later, a copy of that paper was given to every regional commander and eventually to every detachment commander, and ended up causing a lot of commotion up top. Don't discredit yourself just because of your rank.

I understand what you are saying, but my experience tells me you're wrong. Just being a "fighter" and a Marine does not make you good in a hand to hand fight. Without training, most men have no idea what to do when push comes to shove. I'm telling you right now, most men lose control and flail wildly at each other until somoene is subdued, pretty much caveman style. Anyone with at least basic training in martial arts is going to hand him his ass. Do you think that the terrorists aren't teaching each other hand to hand in their training camps? Do you want to have a Marine who has no idea how to even properly buttstroke someone end up in a confrontation with a mujahadeen who has spent the last few months of his life in a camp in Syria learning, among other things, how to handle his weight in a fistfight? Of course not, hence, MCMAP.

Regarding MP school, I'm familiar with the DT you do there, and while they are all effective moves which are much more applicable to real life than most of the entry level MCMAP stuff, MCMAP is an attempt to teach a fluid fighting system whereas DT is just that, tactics and techniques. Most of that shit gets taught to SF Augmentees in their 1 week training course, and they sure aren't getting a free green belt either.

[Gunny_2862]

I have to cosign what USMC said, most people in a fight will fight stupidly....ever watch bar fights? You need to train people in repetition (no matter how it looks to you) to retain that muscle memory in a fight or flight moment. Do some research on battle and you will see, ineffective training causes serious repercussions. I'll draw an example from a book, "On Combat - by Lt Col Dave Grossman":

On page 76, an example was taken from the FBI where they used to train their personnel to draw their pistol when confronted, fire two rounds, and reholster. It was found that when the agents were presented with cases where they had to draw weapons, these trained officers would fire two rounds and reholster, even with "bad guys" still out there. There are other examples of "bad" training in the book and examples of some good training that was implemented when situations like this became documented and released. Hence the point of training something worthwhile and very repetitious, although you may think it's dumb, there is a rhyme behind the reason.

I'd also like to point out that just because you came into the Marine Corps doesn't mean you have to be a killer of men already, capable of taking on two three guys at a time with successful outcomes. That is what we train to teach people when the enlist, and besides, some fighters that are good aren't so good when they fight a dirty alley boy like myself from the city or another trained fighter. MCMAP will at least teach you some things to counter or prepare for those situations. These moves may not get you the UFC Heavyweight belt, but they should at least give an even footing with most combatants and/or an edge over an untrained adversary. Of course, if you only practice the moves and never allow free sparring, you will not get the full benefit of MCMAP.

Remember, MCMAP is a beginning ground for learning to fight, it's up to us leaders to ensure we train effectively as well. Plan free sparring sessions and maximize your training and create those warriors you speak of. We can do it, just do it right and with the proper PPE (gloves, mouthpieces, etc) and personnel at the ready.

[Lone_NCO]

To add on to what USMC and the Gunny said, I've also been in numerous fights before the Mairne Corps. However, I had little structure. Just like now I was ferocious and unrelenting, but when faced with somebody bigger and a little more experienced that did'nt save me from an @$$ whoopin. Not to say I can take on anybody now, but I have a much larger arsenal. I think MCMAP is a great start for anybody interested in self defense. I'm a Sgt with a green belt, i'd go for brown if I had any trainers around me, unfortunately I dont. I do agree that it should count toward promotions, just like off duty education its another way of you trying to better yourself. For those who are skeptical, you should find somebody whos a green belt or higher around your weight level to grapple against and see how you do.