Bypassing boards makes for unready E-6s

[CommunityEditor]

To those who feel the correct response to staff sergeant shortages is to promote E-5s who have not appeared before a board — as detailed in the Feb. 18 Army Times article “Easier E-6” — I have a couple of things to say.

First of all, “What the hell were you thinking?”

I understand that at the E-6 rank, the Army as a whole is short, but don’t streamline the promotion system so that noncommissioned officers who may not be ready to fully assume the responsibility of leadership at the staff sergeant level are able to pin on the rank without going to a promotion board.

It was bad enough that the Army saw fit to do it with specialists advancing to sergeant, but doing it from sergeant to staff sergeant is just plain crazy.

the soldiers who bust their tails to do all the things that we like to call “initiative” should not get passed up by those who have it handed to them for doing nothing more than the job that they enlisted to do. Some military occupational specialties need to hit a very low cutoff score for promotion, while others need to nail 798 points if they want to wear the next rank. Under this policy, those with the low cutoff scores could get promoted faster, while some hard chargers have to wait. That’s simply not fair.

by the time a soldier pins on the next higher rank, his overall military knowledge should match the rank he is about to assume. But given the low cutoff scores for some MOSs, there will be staff sergeants walking around who won’t know anything outside of their specific jobs.

For example, there is an alarming number of NCOs who don’t understand a leave-and-earnings statement well enough to explain to a soldier why he has a pay issue. There are sergeants and staff sergeants who need more corrections on uniform infractions and regulation violations than a junior soldier. When you ask them if they were aware that they were breaking a regulation or policy, they answer, “No, I didn’t know.”

The sad part is that most of them are telling the truth. I’m talking about basic stuff, like walking around talking on a cell phone, smoking while walking, not wearing headgear while walking across a PX parking lot or off post, hands in pockets, improper wear of headgear, unauthorized nail polish, unauthorized hairstyles and so on.

The NCOs doing this stuff are the ones who will get promoted because of the no-board policy.

Far too many promotable sergeants and staff sergeants don’t know the first thing about how to march a group of soldiers from one point to another. I know that being able to conduct drill and ceremony is no way to measure the worthiness of an NCO, and we’re not going to win the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan by out-marching insurgents, but it is something NCOs must know how to do.

And speaking from firsthand experience, it’s scary to see a Warrior Leadership Course graduate who can’t even do the most basic drill-and-ceremony maneuvers without completely screwing up. There are NCOs out there who don’t know how to properly conduct a counseling session with their soldiers and who are going to schools like Warrior Leaders Course and Basic NCO Course only to “check the block” for promotion to the next higher grade.

Of course, the number of NCOs doing the right thing is far greater than those who are not. But in my opinion, the NCO Corps is in a state of emergency. To promote sergeants to staff sergeant without a promotion board would only amplify the problem by allowing less-than-competent NCOs to advance. This new policy might not be so much of a problem if the promoted NCOs stayed in their units and continued to do only what they have been trained to do.

The best thing for them, as well as the Army, would be to let all promotion candidates remain at their current grade until they can fully meet all the responsibilities and requirements of a staff sergeant.

Once NCOs with little or no time in service are allowed to advance in the ranks and find themselves in high-profile jobs — recruiters or drill sergeants, for example — many will have a difficult time making the adjustment and may even land themselves in trouble.

As an infantry sergeant first class with time at Forces Command and Training and Doctrine Command, I have witnessed potentially outstanding NCOs land on the wrong side of an Article 15 or court-martial because they were given responsibility before they were ready, when they lacked the necessary knowledge and professionalism to serve as enlisted leaders.

I couldn’t help but think that had these soldiers not been pushed through the promotion system and been given more time to mature as NCOs, their military careers would still be able to move forward instead of coming to an abrupt halt.

For any soldier who feels that being a leader in combat in Iraq should automatically qualify him for promotion, that’s immature thinking. And being a graduate of the Warrior Leader Course and working in a team leader position does not get you ready to lead soldiers at the staff sergeant level. To think so disrespects every NCO who busted tail and earned promotion to staff sergeant.

Today, soldiers can fail the physical training test twice during the course and still receive a passing score from WLC and not have to take a written exam on the countless hours of instruction — all of which tells me they are not prepared to lead anyone.

For those who think they should not have to go to a promotion board, you sure as hell don’t deserve to have it handed to you. You should do what the rest of us had to do: Spend countless hours taking correspondence courses, take an online college course while deployed or at home station, and go before a promotion board.

Go the extra mile and earn the right to be a staff sergeant.


Backtalk: http://www.armytimes.com/community/opinion/army_backtalk_e6s_032408/
Article: http://www.armytimes.com/issues/stories/0-ARMYPAPER-3358893.php

[SLGAITHER]

Easy to E-6, the talk should also be about easy to E-5, they are very inmature at this rank and on top of that the E-4's are cheating to get promotion points and most are no more ready to lead little kids. I am a old soldier with old ways that came back in the Army and today's E-5's and E-6's are not ready to lead at the level they should be able to, they do not even know the basic leader task, they only know what they have crammed in there head's for the board but after that they really do know further development until the next board.
The leadership is really doing nothing about the cheating as admitted and think the fast promotion's are fair, the one's making the decisions will not have to deal with the inmature leadership we are growing for tomorrow, I will give credit for the fine job on the battle field but when we get back to the rear and they try to deal with the problems of the young soldier's they are to lead, they do not have a clue, basic soldiering is out, they do not know how to march troops or preform PT and believe it or not that is important. The leaders that are being brought up today are not ready in the capacity they should be and sorry but our army will suffer for this in my opinion.

[Unregistered]

Just an ol' dog passing thru. Thought i would check out the Army Times for for old times sake. The current problems kinda make me laugh as I remember some great soldiers getting RIFTed after Desert Storm because the fricking cutoff scores were unattainable and you had to be superman to make E6.....
The Army and nation never learn and boot out good soldiers when they think they don't need 'em anymore, just to beg for people a few years later when they can't find enough. It kinda reminds me of what the nation did to the services following all of the major conflicts of the 20th century and how we got caught shorthanded for each of the next ones. It wasn't just the soldiers, it was also the skills and schools that had to be relearned and re-taught (i.e. sniper school). Well it's like they say, if you don't study history your destined to repeat it. Sorry to hear about the current problems, I had no idea the NCO corp was hurting so bad and it is the backbone of all the services. Have you met a 1st Loui yet that can really lead a platoon, much less a fire team? Not that they aren't some bright kids, but 4 years of college just doesn't make up for 15 or so years on the line.
Enough of my ramblin' and stay safe out there.

[Unregistered]

How does this differ from the junior soldiers who do their minimum time and get an advance in rank, per DA 4187? Now wearing SSG rank means little more than advance in rank to PV2, except for time. The military, esp. the Army, continues to lower standards. Merit and maturity mean little-to-nothing. Paperwork accelerates advancement to E-6 (I won't call it a promotion, unless it's earned) for underachievers without effort. Lack of real skill or capabilities will get good people injured or killed. It's only a matter of time before this administrative policy produces disastrous results in combat.

If lacking numbers created the issue, I believe a better solution exists. The key, was, and still is to allow leaders to continue to determine suitable candidates for promotion...through recommendation, not via forced revocation. Fluctuate the TIS or TIG requirements to allow additional opportunities, or create a better points system to facilitate requirements. Plausible alternatives make more sense than this back-assward system. I am certain good options were offered and then thoughtfully ignored.

I already see younger soldiers changing attitudes for the worse. Soldier of the Month boards are a complete joke amongst the junior folks. The unlucky group tasked to attend each month, cause none volunteer, do not understand the purpose for going. Many view it as useless and harassing as common manual labor details. Let's not even talk about the performance of the vast majority of soldiers attending these boards. I remember when going to the board meant that you were a high-performer, hand selected and groomed to represent your unit; an great example among peers. Now, fellow soldiers just laugh at the poor sucker tasked to appear before a panel of confused old-school leaders.

Once in a while, I encounter a soldier with the appropriate dignity and skills that seeks the challenge. Unfortunately, that same soldier usually destroys the pathetic competition, leavingthem to wonder if he or she actually achieved anything.

MSG TJB

[Good Ridance]

First, I am a retired Staff Sergeant. I went to every school offered to me, lead troops the right way, lived the 7 Army Values daily, and still did not get my E-7 Stripes. I had enough and retired at 20 years. The problem?? Corruption at the highest levels!! Yes, you heard right! I personally knew soldiers in the rank of E-6 that were promoted to SFC (E-7) with 8 or less years of service. Why? Because they personally knew board members at DA. A few were backstabbers; talking negatively about their fellow NCOs behind their backs just to feel good. One is a 15P (SFC Washington). You are the dirtiest of leaders and you know it. In addition, raters make personal biases when writing NCOERS. They suck! Today's soldiers are a pity, lack respect, discipline, and ethical behavior. Their raters are no better, they cannot lead soldiers!!

[Unregistered]

I am an a SSG(P) and worked very hard to achieved that. In my opinion, the promotion board does not make you ready to lead and does not make you any better qualified. Any soldier can pick=up a study guide and memorize the questions, does that make them ready to lead? No, it just shows that they can memorize a study guide. I was once told by a CSM, that if you can not adjust to the changes in the military, then it is time to get out. These changes are going to happen and there is no sense in fighting it. What we must do as leaders, is train the young soldiers from day one and get them ready for these changes. Each soldier represents you, so it is your duty to train them and mentor them. Are they going to be perfect?No, but tell me who is. Promotion is based on potential. We as NCO's have to work harder now to help the Army get stronger. Believe me, some soldiers do not know any better, because no one has taken the time to teach them how to be leaders and some just need that push/direction. Leaders are normally born a leader, but some have it and don't know it. I personally do not agree with automatic promotion, but it is now my duty to work harder to help soldiers prepare for that. I once had this soldier who did not see his potential to lead, but I kept pushing him and pushing him. He did not want to go to the promotion board, but I counseled him and he went. He max the board and got a on the spot AAM. He then got sent to Iraq and he wrote one day. He thank me for pushing him and not giving up on him. That made me feel good inside. I hope we all learn something.

SSG(P) Romero

[Holmes-Brown, Ray]

The Military is changing. We have a points system. You can be a weak leader but just as long as you have points and keep your head about water you get promoted. a good soldier is define as :A soldier who shows up on time and in the correct unifrom, be current with APFT, BRM, and seek improvment ( ie WLC BNCO etc. As far as promotion board www.armystudyguide.com get a LOI and study. There goes your
E1-E6 now as E7 go to chruch, go to military balls or anything that will have high ranking personal there. If they keep seeing your face you are considered a good person. Go to the AIDS walk or run, brest canser walk or run etc and you got your E7. just tell the high ranking people that you meet to right you a letter the higher that rank the better the letter. SSG(P) Romero "Promotion is based on potential as SSG(P) Romero I personally do not agree with automatic promotion, but it is now my duty to work harder to help soldiers prepare for that" If NCO have problems with that then they are just sergeant . We NCO do not make the rule, we enforce it and make the best out of it. If you think a soldier is not ready for thier e6 it is up to the next person to say that. Moreover if you dont like somebody who is about to get their e6 woek harder to get yours and if that fails you only need an AA to beocme WO1 and a BA for commised officer and form their you can make the rules

[Unregistered]

I am a Vietnam vet. Myself and many other soldiers had to go to corporal board to make corporal E4. What some of todays NCOs do not realize, is that in the 70s we had a "NCO Corp," made of professional corporals, sergeants, staff sergeants,etc. The only thing that should be fast tracked are qualified personnel. Many lives were saved in Vietnam because of experienced NCOs such as myself.

[Unregistered]

I am an NCO, and here are my questions in response to the op-ed. 1) Where is this Army policy on walking and talking on a cellphone? It is not in 670-1(the only addendum is the walking and talking with a bluetooth one, dated in 2005) and everyone that swears its Army policy cant show me where it is. Here is my second question. If you are not supposed to smoke in uniform, why does every range/training site have a smoking area? These are just some of the things that made me scratch my head and wonder. Anyone wanna help me out? Also, before anyone calls me a barracks lawyer, pogue or whatever pops into your head, I am a 2 tour OIF vet, combat wounded, outside the wire kind of guy. Feel free to discuss:)

[Unregistered]

I believe that many soldiers out there are NOT ready for promotion to SGT, much less SSG. Many times SPCs are taking more charge and responsibility than NCOs who should be leading and mentoring them. I see SSGs that try to get out of whatever NCO duties they can, NCO induction ceremonies, staff duty, leading SGT's time, PT formations, etc...

The automatic rank is a bad idea. I push all my soldiers to go to the soldier of the month boards in order for them to learn basic military knowledge as well as learn competition. Face it; soldiers now are much different than the soldiers who joined ten years ago. Most of the soldiers in this generation are computer game raised, hand fed people who complain about everything because they haven't had to learn that in order to get what they want, they have to earn it. In my opinion, past generations were different, more competitive and confident with more general life knowledge and skill. Giving these young soldiers automatic advances to the next rank makes sense from PVT to SPC as these auto promotions also come with accompanied responsibilities and the time to learn the responsibilities prior to moving up to the next rank.

Soldiers should earn the right to become a Non-Commissioned Officer and be expected to have the responsibility and knowledge to groom, mentor and lead younger soldiers to replace them as they earn their next rank. We still have to earn the right to advance to SFC, MSG or SGM but we want to automatically promote soldiers up to SSG in a very limited time? What's next, have enough time in the Army and automatically make CSM? Where is the point that soldiers should either earn the next rank or stay in the rank that they shouldn't progress from? We have soldiers getting moved through the ranks that should have been put out long ago for being overweight or that can't pass the PT test. I absolutely hate officers that micro-manage their NCOs, but with the NCO Corps going down the drain, can we blame them?

Additionally, as NCOs posting replies on this post, how can you have incorrect spelling or grammar? You think younger soldiers aren't looking on this post reading these as well? Is it too hard to do a spell check or grammar check before you post? You should check to make sure your not wrong prior to pointing out inconsistencies with others. That's like a SSG I saw just this morning trying to get out of some training... with his name tape and US ARMY tape backwards. Correct yourself before you complain.

[Unregistered]

What is really an issue is the point system. There are many E-5's on the SSG list ready to advance but they have the outstanding points that are keeping them back. If your maxed out on Military education and all that is left to advance the points are college. Some units and jobs don't allow you to go to college or don't allow sufficient time to do it. 11B have one of the lowest points out there. Most are 798 and higher. This is why the army is so short of SSG's.

[Unregistered]

what does it matter anyways. In my field we have so many unfit E6 right now waiting to get picked up to their 7 that are useless. We the E5s that know our job and excel in it get strapped down by them because they are bitter to see others advance. At least by the good people that know their role in the Army getting promoted, it gives junior enlisted the chance to have knowledgeable people teaching them what needs to get done. And, it gives us the opportunity to stand side by side with the unfit NCO so that soldiers can see who actually excels. Yes, you got your people getting by on promotions due to their shortage of personnel in their field, but when it comes down to it, you got one unfit person leading the team just because of rank and they may be in charge of a squad or platoon that is not all the same MOS. The whole promotion system definitely needs to get revamped. Promote by knowledge and not by boards or time in service. If i spend half my time in school or trainings getting by while my battle buddy busts his hump learning the job and i get promoted above him, how fair is that.

[The Universal Curmudgeon_guest]

To those who feel the correct response to staff sergeant shortages is to promote E-5s who have not appeared before a board — as detailed in the Feb. 18 Army Times article “Easier E-6” — I have a couple of things to say.

First of all, “What the hell were you thinking?”In deed, "What the hell are you thinking?"

Many NCOs have chimed in on this subject, but here is the opinion of a non-NCO.

"Courses and 'book learning' do not a Leader make.". What courses and 'book learning' do make is specialists/experts in subjects. The only thing that "makes a Leader" is leading.

If you don't have anyone who has the proven leadership skills to fulfill an NCO's duties, then you do an "Acting Lacking" promotion for the most likely candidate. If they succeed, they get confirmed. If they fail, then there are no negative repercussions when they "revert to rank" because they were known not to be fully qualified when temporarily promoted.

None of the above should be taken to mean that I don't approve of "accumulating points" - I do. But I think that they should be reflected in "pay differentials" rather than forced promotion of the unqualified (as leaders). (Oh yes, I also think that the performance of anyone promoted on the recommendation of another should be reflected in the assessment of that other person. Someone who has a history of recommending real ThunderThuds for promotion obviously has something wrong with their judgment.)

[Unregistered]

I know the Army wants to keep quality people However fast track to SGT/SSG is not the way. The Army needs to bring back the Spec5 and Spec6 ranks to keep quality people in who are not ready for hard stripes but deserve more responsibility and pay. Just not ready to lead troops yet.

[Good Ridance]

Boards in the Army should not be a factor in order to determine a leader. However since boards are part of the establishment, soldiers must do their best to advance. The goal of the Army is to enhance junior soldiers into effective leaders. In addition, I know of officers and ncos that fail to take the required semi-annual apft, yet still get ahead in their careers. It is all dependent on OPTEMPO, unit type, and effective or ineffective leadership. I am just glad I no longer have to live the nightmare of this corruption. More to follow....
(Retired SSG)

[Unregistered]

I fully agree with this, we shouldn't be filling ANY rank with less then worthy leaders. During the last two E7 selection boards I watched soldiers that once worked for me pass me in rank. A couple I give credit where it is due they did bust their ass to get there and are well deserving. This last E7 board was outrageous since two of the individuals I had work for me as E5's and both received article 15's for alchol related incidents but were still allowed to go to the promotion board for E6 after proving they could and now were selected to E7 after wearing the stripes for less then three years. I also received an article 15 for something I am not particularly proud of but after 5 years I thought that the board would see the improvements and deam me worthy but I guess NCOER's arent as looked at as they should be. That being said I will have my packet look alot better next year. If I do not get it then I guess I will finally pack it in and wait out my last year on active duty and retire and go fishing.

Now back to automatic E6 promotions: I really think they are a bad decision. There are soldiers out there that are actually going to college to earn their degree's (not just purchasing them from a fly by night school) and completing ACCP courses and attempting to improve their weapons scores as well as their PT scores. Then you have the soldier that shows no iniative at all in an MOS that has a low cut-off score and gets promoted. What do you tell the super troop to keep him motivated? As a leader I was both in the same situation of watching lesser soldiers receive awards for doing their jobs and getting promoted and trying to assist a few good soldiers get promoted, and when you see the good ones finally get it and they ask you to pin the stripes on it makes you feel good knowing the next generation of leaders will be taken care of.

Just one old crusty NCO voicing his opinion.

[Justabystander]

Most E6's I believe are competent leaders except for a select few bad apples. As an active duty SSG I earned my stripes and believe that you should STILL GO TO A BOARD E5-E9 to prove yourself as a leader.

[Unregistered]

I am a sergant in the army and I think there is nothing wrong with faster promotions in the miltary. It saitifles requirments of the military and it is a good morale tool for soldiers. But is true that some bad apples slip though, but that is true with every program and regulation that the goverment has. And it remided by a NCO Eval Form. I have seen NCO's that has done all the requirements to become an E-6 and still is unready and some gets people killed out on the battlefield. I personally think that promotion boards is nothing but a dog any pony show". I know the true way to test readyness of an E-6 is how he or she leads.

[Unregistered]

First, lets all keep in mind that the men and women that get promoted automatically have probably been serving in leadership positions to some degree due to attrition of the NCO Corp due mostly to ETS, PCS. Second, promotion points are calculated by the needs of the Army. So if you are a postal clerk don't expect to be promoted just because you served a year as an E-4. The fast track is in the Combat Arms and Special Ops Groups, Don't think because you have served ten years as an E-5 in the Postal Command that you will be majically promoted to E-6. The units this effects are shortage MOS's specifically. In essence if there are 100 slots for a prticular MOS and only 75 slots have been filled by the regular means, board and WLC/BNCOC, then the Army will Fast track the other 25 for the needs of the Army to ensure force readiness.
I served From 1992 to 1998 and I like many of you had to be recommended by my chain of command to even grace the promotion board, and also had to attend "PLDC" Primary Leadership Developement Course.
The promotion points for a 21B Combat Engineer in 96, when I was promoted to E-5, were only 523. The Points are lower now than they were before, and the way the Points are calculated I believe have been changed.
From personal experience I was a newly minted Sgt. and was thrown into a Squad Leader position to lead a squad of combat engineers for a JRTC and an NTC rotation. I know this isn't combat but I was being "trained" to lead soldiers. I credit all the NCO's that I served under for developing me to be a good NCO, and I believe I was.
Now to the point, the Army does a train up for all units before depolyment overseas its not as if they are being thrown out of the skillet and into the fire, and if they are I fault the NCO's and Officers over them. As NCO's we should always put our subordinates in postions to succed, not to fail. These soldiers that are being promoted are being trained to lead from the day they enlisted, if not, then that is OUR fault because we obviously didn't train our subordinates as we were trained. I know for a fact that some bad apples get through and the Officer Corp is no different. I despised the "do as I say, not as I do leadership" that was prevalent when I was in. NCO's are "THE" backbone of the US ARMY. As NCO's we should continue to influence and develope the soldiers that may come in contact with us.

Move out smartly airborne!!!!!!!

I will leave any young NCO looking for tips with this.

BE, KNOW, DO
Be the example
Know your Job
Do your Job

[Unregistered]

This is stupid! I dont see where you can say it's not fair that some soldiers have low cut off scores most of those low cut of scores are combat arms, why is it fair you sit in a air conditioned office all day why i sweat? because that is the life i chose you want low cut off scores get out from behind your desk and come join us on the street...I do not agree with the auto E-6 but there just isn't enough in combat arms to fill those we have lost. The only arguement there is, is there it is automatic there is no other arguement everything else is just people whinning.......

[Unregistered]

I believe a true leader knows how to perform without out all the reading and studying required to go before the boards. Which is really better, someone who learns the job hands on or someone who sits behind the desk thinking they know how to accomplish the mission. You are born a leader or a follower and I don't believe a book is going to help you when you are thrown with a weapon on the front lines and told to fight , they are going to respect you more when you are there in the mist of it all, right by their side. It is easy to tell someone what to do, the question is can you do the job yourself?

[Unregistered]

This goes out to all that say how much of a pitty this new generation of soldiers are. To me its funny, ex-soldiers and older soldiers whinning about a "new generation" of soldiers somehow getting off the hook and getting "easy" stripes. Well this new generation of soldier is FIGHTING A WAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If a soldier particularlly in 11B has shown in combat that he is fit for the next rank and theres a need, promote them!!! I would much rather be a PVT following an expirienced NCO that has done tours in Iraq or Afghanistan than a PVT following an NCO that has sat here in the states and got his stripes the "hard" way and dont know shit other than how to memorize Army regulations and "How to pass the Board" books. We seem to have forgotten durring all those years of peace that the U.S. Army was made to fight wars and sometimes we do what we have to do, to get the job done. NCOs are promoted on potential and their proven leadership ability, and theres no better way to prove real combat leadership than in combat. E-6 stripes earned in combat are the hard stripes.

[Unregistered]

I am going to start by saying that I too don't agree with bypassing boards for the rank of SSG/E6. I did my Army time from 86-89. I started my rank at PV2 and ended it with SPC/E4. During my time in the Army, I too worked under some fine SSG/E6's. I also back then even saw people getting promoted who really didn't deserve this action. I saw people getting promoted to SGT/E5 who had absolutely no business carrying that rank and when they got it, they didn't have a clue in what they were doing and also got the "buck fever" that went to the extreme. I wasn't one of those people who kissed the fourth point of contact to obtain my rank. I did do the soldier of the month boards and when ready went to the E5 board passing with a score of 198 back then. And I worked my tail off while on duty.

I believe that yes, in today's Army especially with the current conflicts going on in Iraq and Afganistan that yes, I would rather be under someone who is combat proven than under someone who has never been there, but I would also want someone who is competent and has their shit squared away whether in battle or stateside.

[Unregistered]

While leading a convoy from Balad Airbase to Samarra Airfield in 2003 we were ambushed. While returning fire we continued to drive through the attack. After exiting the kill zone I counted the vehicles in my mirror and noticed that one was missing ( four vehicle convoy that now had only three vehicles). I immediately told my driver to turn around and go back because we do not have all the vehicles. After turning the vehicle around we proceeded back to find the missing vehicle. As we passed another vehicle in the convoy I yelled to that vehicle that we were going back because we were missing a vehicle (these were unarmored vehicles with plastic doors and windows). I heard a voice in reply from the vehicle we were passing saying " no lets keep going" (These were soldiers in my unit and I knew the person whose voice it was). If I had not lead this convoy the person whose voice I heard say lets keep going would have been the convoy commander. This soldier was a decent soldier but was the kind of soldier that was straight from a book with no on hand leadership ability. By bypassing the boards for E-5 to E-6 you are giving the Army more of the soldiers that I had in my convoy. I did ignore that soldier and went back and retrieved the three soldiers, all whom were wounded and the vehicle that was disabled.

[Unregistered]

I feel that it is unfair especially for those older E-6's and E-7's that rightfully earned their rank. This takes away from the E-7's that rightfully deserve promotions.

[Unregistered]

I am a SFC with 19 years. TO&E, TDA, FORSCOM, TRADOC, MEDCOM, OIF, Desert Storm.. been there, done that. I have seen, on numerous occasions where rank and responsibility have out-run the individuals abilities and maturity. I don't claim to have the answers, but I can offer some personal opinions on what I would do differently to try to avoid this problem. Every promotion system is going to have its flaws. The old system, where the 1SG and Co promoted folks thru E6 based on position and personal opinion, was corrupted by the "good ol boy" network, thats why we have the system we have today. I would offer this as a possible solution. Restructure the point system to where points are earned for TIG, TIS and Formal duty positions held. These should be based on the amount of time, i.e. 1pt for every 3mo TIG, 2pt for every 6mo as a Tm LDR, etc.. I know that this isn't a perfect solution, but it at least makes it so an individual has to spend some time in their current grade to make it to the next, hopefully developing some maturity and leadership skills. I don't know if there is a "silver bullet" to fix it, but maybe it would be a start.

[Unregistered]

This is stupid! I dont see where you can say it's not fair that some soldiers have low cut off scores most of those low cut of scores are combat arms, why is it fair you sit in a air conditioned office all day why i sweat? because that is the life i chose you want low cut off scores get out from behind your desk and come join us on the street...I do not agree with the auto E-6 but there just isn't enough in combat arms to fill those we have lost. The only arguement there is, is there it is automatic there is no other arguement everything else is just people whinning.......

This person is obviously 11B. It always makes me grin when people start talking about sensitive things and 11B's always take the offensive side. Everyone else is lazy and sits behind a desk if your MOS is not 11B. Everyone contributes, but i cannot make you believe that can I?? The Points are crazy!! Why should a SGT with 10 years in and works his ass off be by passed for rank due to his promotion points in his current MOS when a SPC with 3 years gets to advance just because he may put his life in more danger than others??

[Unregistered]

This person is obviously 11B. It always makes me grin when people start talking about sensitive things and 11B's always take the offensive side. Everyone else is lazy and sits behind a desk if your MOS is not 11B. Everyone contributes, but i cannot make you believe that can I?? The Points are crazy!! Why should a SGT with 10 years in and works his ass off be by passed for rank due to his promotion points in his current MOS when a SPC with 3 years gets to advance just because he may put his life in more danger than others??

Real simple,
They don't need 100 E-8 Postal clerks, in a field that is congested with people just wanting to serve 20 and retire.

[Unregistered]

Those that are familiar with business may understand this analogy.

Supply & Demand,

It is fair and equitable to those that are in shortage MOS's to be paid ( signing bonuses) and advanced ( fast tracked promotion) due to RISK. When the conflicts cease, I'm sure there will be plenty of time for the boards and other Horse and pony shows. If you are that strongly disatisfied with the quality of troops coming on board don't you think that BASIC training should be a tad more difficult?

[Unregistered]

E-6 is a pay grade; not a rank. Why does everyone feel to need to address it like that. Does this sound right? "Excuse me, E-6 Smith, I have a question".

How about if we correct ourselves?

[Unregistered]

Easy to E-6, the talk should also be about easy to E-5, they are very inmature at this rank and on top of that the E-4's are cheating to get promotion points and most are no more ready to lead little kids. I am a old soldier with old ways that came back in the Army and today's E-5's and E-6's are not ready to lead at the level they should be able to, they do not even know the basic leader task, they only know what they have crammed in there head's for the board but after that they really do know further development until the next board.
The leadership is really doing nothing about the cheating as admitted and think the fast promotion's are fair, the one's making the decisions will not have to deal with the inmature leadership we are growing for tomorrow, I will give credit for the fine job on the battle field but when we get back to the rear and they try to deal with the problems of the young soldier's they are to lead, they do not have a clue, basic soldiering is out, they do not know how to march troops or preform PT and believe it or not that is important. The leaders that are being brought up today are not ready in the capacity they should be and sorry but our army will suffer for this in my opinion.

First off, not everybody's promotion points are 350 for E-5 or 450 for E-6, so what some people to brigde that gap is up to them. And it is mainly on the military education portion, as we all know about cheat on correspondence courses. For some MOSs it is imperitive that you have them to get promoted. But when there are only about a 100 or so hours of course work related to your MOS, if even that much. So personally I believe that you should be tested on the knowledge of your MOS that you should have to obtain either SGT or SSG. That should be the bulk of the military education points, of course the other military should not go away but have less weight on the points awards.

Yes knowing how to march and "perform" PT shows military discipline, but you have to understand that we are at war. Doing PT and marching, yes, that is important but the manner in which it is performed should not really matter as long as there is no slacking off and there is some military discipline within the ranks. It is more important that Soldiers know their job, that is what really saves lives. You can march and perform PT to Army Regulation all you want but if you don't know your job then you will be absolutely worthless. Maybe when we are peacetime or in a unit that does not deploy then you can really scrutinize on the way a leader performs PT or marches his Soldiers', but at this time if he makes sure that they know their jobs then he has done them a great favor. And as far as not taking care of a Soldier's problems, you can give them guidance on what to do, but a leader should not have to hold their hand every step of the way. Not all leaders that are coming up today are as bad as you picture them, but if they are not up to your par then they will blossom more over time.

[jch9560]

I think all promotions should be equal, If I were running the system. It would be by year group amoung MOS. What some folks call hard chargers are really just soldiers in the right unit with the right leadership that allow them to attend the schools and get the awards, there are plenty of soldiers with equal time who are in units that dont get that opprotunity. I admit there are some soldiers with no real desire to advance but those can easily be spoted by good leadership. If promotions where based by MOS and year entered service I think you'd have a more mature and expernced NCO. I,m retired now but during my time in have run into so many NCO's that have all the badges and ribbons and get the rank sooner than those with more time in service but arent any better leaders. I read in one of these post about board members knowing a certain person and that giving that person a head up and that is so true, I have soken to a couple of folks who have sat boards and favoritism goes on. Anyone who thinks it doesnt is fooling themselves. How many times have you said How the heck did that person get promoted.

[MSG Beatty]

Soldier, I can understand your beef but the real deal is that no Soldier can get promoted to the next rank without his or hers chain of command giving the green light. The company commander has the right to say no to allowing any Soldier to be put on a promotion list before they attend a promotion board. So I guess what I am saying to you is that before you sound off and write letters that are not exactly true, you probably should get all the facts. If you have a beef with some Soldier getting promoted take it up with your chain of command because they are the ones who have allowed, how did you say it, a Soldier just doing their job to get promoted. Seems to me that what the Army is looking for is for Soldiers to just do their jobs!

[Unregistered]

The armed services do this all the time. They cut qualifications to be promoted when they think they have a shortage. Then when they realize that they have over promoted they get rid of the older soldiers and keep the young untrained personnel. In the reserve system in the 90's the Army came up with Retention Boards to reduce the number of personnel in the Reserve System. The boards never told you why you were released from the service nor was any paper work related to your release kept. The only think that counted was that the old personnel were out of the way so the the younger personnel could be promoted and not leave the service. Yes the Armed Force are a young mans organization but you also need the old to teach the young soldier how to do his job. The Warrant Officer Board was replace with a Warrant Officer school. That was one of the biggest mistakes the Army ever made. Prior to the elimination of the Board you became a Warrant Officer on what you knew of the field you worked in and you were graded by soldiers in that field. You could not study for the board you had to rely on what you knew. Now the new Warrants do not need to know much about the field they are working in as long as the can get through the Warrant Officer training. I feel that to get the best E-6s you need to have a board of soldiers E-6 and above in the field of the promotion and a board selected from a unit other than that of the soldier seeking the promotion. This way the soldier can not study for the board and must rely on his or her knowledge to get promoted. To sum it up if you make it to easy to get promote to any grade you will not get the most qualified, dedicated, hard working individual in that position. What you will get is the book smart individual not the street smart individual and/or the unit brown nose that knows nothing . I work rather have the crusty old NCO leading me rather that the NCO that brown nosed his way into the job. Most of the time the NCO is the one that keeps people alive.

[Unregistered]

army messing up again

[Unregistered]

We are all ready seeing the affects of the new promotion system. E4s that have not been recomended for promotion that are being promoted. A lower class NCO that did not meet the stanards to go to the board due to discipline issues, failure to show leadership quaity's ect. The army seems to think that the NCOs did not do thier job by promoting these Soldiers, but by the time a Soldier gets to the point of being automatically promoted several NCOs have done thier job by not recommending the Soldier for the board. Now we will pass the buck again to fill the numbers that the Army requires. The requirement is not for a quaility NCO rather any NCO.

The vehicle to stop this promotion is through counseling. Counseling that gets shot down by the command who thinks that the Soldier deserves a shot. A chance to do "Great Thing". In this time of war this chance is getting good Soldiers hurt.

Anouther issue is the Soldier who is not recommended for advancement into the ranks of the NON Commissioned being embaraced in his efforts to become a commissioned officer. The newly promoted 2LT that could not make it as an enlisted member now will be automatically promoted to CPT or higher so he can destroy good Solldiers at the company or BN level.

I do not have a better solution to the problem/shortage of quality Soldiers, but do know that the army needs to think before deciding to promote based on time in service.

I could go on for hours on the failures in the promotion system right now, but it will serve no purpose. The army need numbers and that is the final answer.

1SG

[Unregistered]

Why don't we make the qualification for 2LT (just be enrolled in college). No need for a degree. Most the Senior NCO's do the Junior officers jobs anyway with half the pay.

MSG T.

[kojack]

Why do you all even listen to the officers? just do what you need to run the company and document it. Company grade officers have no real authority(they do on paper but in reality its nothing) over you and most openly admit it in front of you! Humor them if you want and then order them out of your command. They'll leave. Search out the good officers and invite them to your unit if you want. Talk with you CSM about getting them assigned.

The day is coming in DOD where NCOs will have input into or will even be rating officers..

[Biglew97]

Just me thinking out loud, but if I recall, the Dept of the Navy, in particular the Marine Corp, use a Testing system that will not allow advancement until the Marine demonstrates Job proficiency at each level, i.e. e-1 - e-6. to include evaluations and boards.

Anyone that may know something please correct me. I don't want to spew incorrect information.

I also believe that every Marine is trained first as an infantryman.

I was an E-5 Sgt in the Army so I don't know about the Marine Corp, but those (Marines) I have met seem to be, at times, head and shoulders above some of the yahoos we field.

Personally,
During a JRTC rotation, my squad was decimated by a "Friendly" call for fire (yes our 1st LT. FSO called in fire on our position) the combat team that i was attached to picked up a Marine corp FG (Forward Guns) Team. This team was led by an E-3 Lance Corporal. He had his stuff in order and was as professional as they come. He was accompanied by a SSG for oversight though. I wonder if maybe we (the Army) is doing something wrong.

[former31B]

The requirement is not for a quaility NCO rather any NCO.

There it is in a nutshell. We are wasting out time complaining about unqualified people getting promoted. If it was really about quality, the Army wouldn't be giving $40,000 enlistment bonuses to people that can't even finish high school. The fact remains that the Army needs x-number of people at each rank. I remember when it was such a big deal when the automatic E-5 system came out. People swore it would be the downfall of the Army. I have yet to see any detriment in that system and do not believe doing so for E-6 will worsen anything.

While I agree that such a system of promotion does not always yield the best and brightest, I will offer for your consideration that most of the people getting promoted this way would be soon promoted anyway. By and large, these are Soldiers who may not be Audie Murphy material but they do meet minimum standards....and in an era when "retain" is of the utmost importance, promotion must follow. You can write all the non-rec counseling you want but when it comes time to talk reenlistment and the soldier says "send me to the board or I walk", guess where those counseling statements go. How many Commanders and 1SG are willing to explain to their higher that SPC Johnny ETSed because SGT Snuffy, or even SFC Snuffy, doesn't feel Johnny deserves promotion?

I think the solution comes from divorcing rank from pay. The Army once did this with the Specialist system. This recognized that some people have no ability and/or desire to lead people but still have potential to serve. What I was thinking is perhaps a banded pay scale. E-1 through E-4 would all receiving the same pay. E-5 through E-7 the same pay. E-8s and E-9s would each have their own pay rate, as well. These pay bands would correspond to TIS with eligibility to enter the E-5 to E-7 pay band reserved only for those who have completed their first term of service. Within each band, people could be placed in different ranks and positions at the discretion of local commanders. Points could be awarded for rank/positions held and taken into account over the entire career of a Soldier to help determine at what rank they are most qualified for. For example, a hard-charging first termer, after reenlisting, could be waived into an E-6 position while a mediocre soldier could stay an E-5 till the 15 year mark if they showed no initiative. At around the 15 year mark, both soldiers would be eligible for the E-8 pay band, with the average soldier becoming a MSG and the hard charger becoming a 1SG. This system would award those who take initiative while recognizing that the Army needs all those who are at least not counter productive.

The way it is now, as long as you keep your head down and month shut, you are virtually guaranteed retirement as an E-6 and likely an E-7. Seems to me it has been this way for some time now so I'm not sure where the shock and awe comes from as if this was new.

[former31B]

Every promotion system is going to have its flaws. The old system, where the 1SG and Co promoted folks thru E6 based on position and personal opinion, was corrupted by the "good ol boy" network, thats why we have the system we have today. I would offer this as a possible solution. Restructure the point system to where points are earned for TIG, TIS and Formal duty positions held. These should be based on the amount of time, i.e. 1pt for every 3mo TIG, 2pt for every 6mo as a Tm LDR, etc.. I know that this isn't a perfect solution, but it at least makes it so an individual has to spend some time in their current grade to make it to the next, hopefully developing some maturity and leadership skills. I don't know if there is a "silver bullet" to fix it, but maybe it would be a start.

I like this! I think most of those who claim how good the Army used to be fall victim to revisionist history. Every generation of Soldiers left the Army in fear of what was to come of the institution. Vietnam vets though the Army would go to hell in a hand basket at the hands of the "Pepsi Generation", who are now SFCs and above.

[Unregistered]

This person is obviously 11B. It always makes me grin when people start talking about sensitive things and 11B's always take the offensive side. Everyone else is lazy and sits behind a desk if your MOS is not 11B. Everyone contributes, but i cannot make you believe that can I?? The Points are crazy!! Why should a SGT with 10 years in and works his ass off be by passed for rank due to his promotion points in his current MOS when a SPC with 3 years gets to advance just because he may put his life in more danger than others??

Nope not an 11B i am a 19D and i think that if you choose the job to sit behind a desk and go to the field for 1 week a year then yes i think you should have higher points not like there is no time to do college sitting at your computer... I dont think there should an auto promotion but i think combat arms points should be lower does it effect me? yes even though i am already a SSG i still have to lead from the front.

[Unregistered]

I feel that we make it too easy for Soldiers now. Automatically promoting them to SGT and now SSG doesn't show them what it takes to be an NCO. I see a lot of SGTs that are not ready for the next position or mature enough to take care of themselves much less other Soldiers. Because we are short on SSGs doesn't mean we need to automatically promote them. We need to show the SGTs that are ready for the next position how to get there and help those who are striving for the next rank. Look at the changes in the Army now. Yes, this is a smarter Army but does that mean we make it an immature Army also?

[Unregistered]

Totally agree with your point of view but I would add one aspect you neglected to mention...

We cannot totally blame these NCOs who are not ready for promotion. The blame should fall upon their leaders for ALLOWING it to happen. Perhaps if they had taken the time to properly lead and counsel their Soldiers, they would have the "paper trail" to present to the chain of command to show why these Soldiers are not ready for promotion.

Not all of this counseling needs to be negative by any stretch of the imagination but just simply professional growth counseling to show that these Soldiers are not ready for the next level.

Well, that's just my 2 cents...

[Unregistered]

The only way that we as Senior NCOs can stop knuckleheads from getting promoted to SSG is by doing the counseling on him. If you do your monthly counseling and you state why you dont think he should be promoted then usually he wont get promted. Make sure yiou have the proof why you think he shouldnt be promoted. Also if we have unqualified personel getting promted to early then the only person we can blame is ourselves for not training him or her. When I went to PLDC and BNCOC it was a waste of time for me cause I knew how to do the most of the things there cause I had a NCO who taught me and trained me.
As far as some people feeling short change cause their cuttoff score is through the roof Well Sorry you picked your job just like i did. The cuttoff score is based off of manning in the Army. I know some people look at me and said I was promoted to fast seeing how i went from PVT to SFC in 10 yrs. But I know every aspect of my job and Im currently serving my third tour in Iraq and I was in Afghan for also a year.
So in conclusion the only person we can blame for have terdmerchants getting promoted to fast is ourselves we need to train our Soldiers, lead our Soldier and teach them the Army way and prepare them for the next rank

[kojack]

The discussion gets back to the idea of rank, pay, and positon just like with the officers. Most everyone agrees that the vast majority of officers are not competent, are not leaders and in fact, really are not in charge of anything. Well, the same can be said for NCOs. Just because you wear stripes and have been "placed" in a leadership position doesnt necessarily mean that you're the one running the show. There may be a strong E4 that.s running circles aroung that E6. The system needs to recognize that E4 and pay him as the E6. Pay, perks and prileges have been balanced out etween officers and NCOs; its time that we relook the discrimination bewteen NCO and lower enlisted. Should also bring back the upper level specialist ranks with additional technical incentive pay for them.

[kojack]

Not everyone should be or WANTS to be promoted but if they're performing as if they were theyn should be paid for that rank. Just a new, more fair and equal way of doing things.

[Bamapunisher7]

I believe this is a bad idea. It started when they changed the promotion system, I.E. uneducated E-4 to uneducated E-5, then WLC. In Iraq I saw and worked with to many uneducated E-5s and 6's because they are promoted to early. I know there is a war going on and getting to schools is problimatic,but we are cheating the soldiers and ourselves to promote people who aren't ready or educated enough. I joined the Army in 1987 and waited and worked through the system to get where I am and it was a education getting here and I am about to put on E-8. Don't cheapen the rank or cheat the soldiers out of good experienced leaders.

[renren40]

What really is a promotion board? It really is just an over decorated audition or tryout. The soldier or NCO attending tries to memorize as much information as possible. We have people working long shifts and they are working hard. They are in the fields of food service, MP, medics, mechanics and so on. So what if they can't or do not get some questions right at 10-20 minute board. What's stange is there are some sick call rangers and profile riders that go to the board and do well to get their promotbale status. Then there is the hard working blue collar soldier or NCO that passes his PT test consistently and botches the board because of a few questions. And what if the soldier naturally does not like the "interview" process but is willing to take bullets for his country as opposed to the talkative shammer that loves attention and exceeds at the board. And what about the reservist who is running around with E6 rank telling soldiers what to do. Because reservists and active duty occasionally work together.

Thread starter...open your eyes.

[Unregistered]

The whole promotion points process is a joke. You sit around waiting each month to see if you have enough points to pin on that next rank. "January? nope, still not fit. Feb, March and April? sorry. Oh look the points for May are out and I made it. Now I'm good enough." To bad your skills, abilities and respect from your platoon members hasn't changed any. So one month you're not capable and boom, next month your a platoon sgt.

[Unregistered]

So, would we be correct to use the phrase "pin on" of the rank, now that we're in ACU's? How's this sound? "I can't wait to Velco on my Sergeant stripes"? Now, doesn't that sound absurd and childish?

Since the start of the Automation Integration List for Sergeant began, there have been no promotions in MOS 15Q. Hopefully that will continue under the Staff Sergeant provisions. It goes back to the promotion board recommendations. If the Platoon Sergeant doesn't feel the Soldier is ready for promotion, ensure it is documented on DA Form 4856. That documentation is required monthly and should be detailed as to the reason why the Soldier is not being recommended to attend the promotion board.

And one last thought. Will all the NCO's out there quit complaining about getting a 2 block on their NCOER. Not everyone deserves a 1/1. Why do most Senior Raters feel compelled to hand out 1/1 ratings like candy?

Let's get graded like Officers, where only a certain percentage can receive a 1 block. That would certainly stop the promotions to Sergeant First Class by those Soldiers that have between 8-10 years of service. You can not grow an MOS 15Q Sergeant First Class in under 10 years. There is no way possible. Any 15P MSG's out there agree? Also, let's stop the early promotion of reclassed Soldiers to Sergeant First Class. For example, an 88M SSG, that has held the 15Q MOS for less than three years and are selected for promotion to Sergeant First Class. I would rather have a 15Q SSG with less than 10 years promoted than the reclassed SSG.

What's the average TIS of a newly promoted 11B SFC? Or a 12B SFC? I'm sure it's not 10 years.

It's starting to feel like promotions are being used for retention purposes and nothing else.

[Unregistered]

I say no, NO, the E-5,s that want to be E-6 should go to the board. The board was designed to put that E-5 under the microscope, it's a tedious operation, that must be done. When i was a 1SG , i had what i called (murder boards) prep only the best. I would bring in all my PSG's, and set up a promotion board. We would ask the hard question's, first aid, weapons, NBC, tactic's, enemy vehicles, etc... They also had to address, my mock board member's as 1SG's, so in essence i was preparing my E-7's for 1SG also. We had fun doing those board's, the soldier's looked forward to it, and so did the PSG's. If they couldn't pass my board, they didn't go to the B.N. Board until they could.

SGM (R) Willard Burfict

[Unregistered]

The biggest issue seems to be the Personnel Offices are not properly doing their paperwork. Each month the Company Commanders/ First Sergeant should be completing AAA-117/AAA-294 reports that show who is eligible for promtion currently and upcoming and also helps to determine E-1/E-4 who are eligible for waivers. Ultimately the allowing of unfit soldiers to obtain grades of E-5 and above falls on the 1SG and commander, or the personnel office for not properly comleting the paperwork.

[SSGp]

I disagree with bypassing SGT and SSG boards. Personally I think WLC should be like Survivor; only the strong survive. BUT:

I happen to be one of those 7 in 7 guys and I don't think that you should group all fast-trackers together as immature non-leaders. I earned my promotable status and have no doubt that I will lead my people as any Leader would. I have been blessed with natural talents that have helped me along the way, PT, Weapons, Conceptual Skills, People Skills, and a Tactical Mind. I didn't have cream of the crop Soldiers, I made the Soldiers no one else wanted Cream of the Crop. I found middle ground in tactful disagreement with Superiors continually, I have been told by my Rater that 95% of my company didn't like me and that the 5% that did were my Soldiers. I have had Soldiers that went on to be Drill Sergeants, White House employees, and even Special Forces. In the 5-6 years I have had as a tactical Leader, no less than 30 Soldiers became NCOs instead of Chapters and 10 of those became successful SSGs. I have never lost a Soldier in Combat (save one for mental problems) and have lead Soldiers through 2 years boots on ground.

So, before you pile all the younglings in a pile marked 4F you might want to look at why CSMs choose them to be where they are; I have seen 20 year 1SGs clear their Weapons when IEDs went off because that what their insticts told them to do having been "raised" in a peacetime army.

[Unregistered]

I am an NCO, and here are my questions in response to the op-ed. 1) Where is this Army policy on walking and talking on a cellphone? It is not in 670-1(the only addendum is the walking and talking with a bluetooth one, dated in 2005) and everyone that swears its Army policy cant show me where it is. Here is my second question. If you are not supposed to smoke in uniform, why does every range/training site have a smoking area? These are just some of the things that made me scratch my head and wonder. Anyone wanna help me out? Also, before anyone calls me a barracks lawyer, pogue or whatever pops into your head, I am a 2 tour OIF vet, combat wounded, outside the wire kind of guy. Feel free to discuss:)

I have to agree...there isn't anything on walking and talking on cell phones in 670-1. What happens is a lot of installation commanders put a policy letter in place that is against that. While I was on Fort Gordon, that was the rule...you couldn't even talk on your cell while driving if you used an ear piece. I get to Huachuca and not only can you walk and talk on a cell phone, you can also drive on post and talk using your ear piece. So it just depends. As for the smoking thing, yeah that's a pretty mixed message.

[Unregistered]

I have been reading all of your comments posted on this site and I must say a lot of you have very good ideas and thoughts pertaining to this issue.

My personal thoughts on this do not necessarily come straight from the actual issue at hand, which is bypassing the board. I feel that the problem as a whole comes from the promotion system set in place. Most of us don’t really get credit where credit is due. I’m an E-5(P) with 8 years in service. I’ve paid my dues in Iraq as well as going though all the hoops to obtain rank whether it be from correspondence courses, awards, military schools ect. Granted my combat time does not validate me to get promoted. But it should however play a role towards points. The system as a whole is flawed expecting one job to obtain 798 and another to only need 450. This is ridiculous, especially when we get put together in that environment where the less experienced but higher ranking individual is put in charge. I personally think that if you have a problem filling slots for E-6 lower the points. I know people have argued with me about not being able to replenish the ranks to get more on the list but if you don’t have the drive to at least become promo table "Stay the hell out of the corps" there will always be a hard charging Soldier coming up that will handle that job let he or she get promoted.

I applaud all of you for voicing your opinions openly I agree with most of your thoughts and opinions. The only issue is; will our voices be heard. You know, we’re only Noncommissioned Officers what do we know?

Thank You..

[Unregistered]

Its amazing how each generation things so much higher of themselves then the last. When I came in in 1992 the old, some as far back as vietnam days, told me how week todays soldiers and complained about the lack of leadership and they felt sorry fot the NCO Corp. Now 16 years those guys that were complained about are the ones complains. Its all cyclical, the only constant is change. The promotion system has never truly been "fair" I tell my soldiers thats something they have to suck up and get over. Life isn't fair and the army models that sometimes.

[Unregistered]

I think that part of the problem with the board system is there is no set standard, the same can be said about the NCOER system. You have some commands that don't believe in the board process, so its more like a go or no go and they emphsize the recommendation and then some commands that are doing "murder boards. I thin this is a systemic problem. I know a soldier who just got picked for E7 because he looks great on paper and people like his work, but he has no leadership skills, which didn't seem to reflect on his NCOERs because he is great at his job,

["young SSG"]

The initial responder to this article sounds a little sour grapes to me. I get the feeling he was passed over at a few boards prior to his promotion. Boards do have there place don't get me wrong but, they don't always get soldiers in their best light. I have been through several boards in my career. I am probably still in the category that the initial responder disagrees with. I have been in for 7 years and have been an SSG for nearly 2 years. I spent 2 years as an SGT. I found out when I got promoted to SGT back in 04 the learning curve for new NCOs was steep. It forced me to really apply myself to becoming a good leader. The problems these young SGTs and SSGs face is not receiving good mentorship from their superior NCOs. I have first hand experience with this. Being a young NCO I was a bit overwhelmed with my new assignment, my section SGT, a newly promoted SFC provided little to no counseling and set me up for failure. I received a short notice that I was to attend a training meeting with the 1SG in place of my section SGT. The SFC gave me no training schedule or workplan for our section. I literally when to this meeting in the dark. Naturally when I didn't have answers to the 1SG's questions, I was chewed out and looked incompetent. I took it upon myself to go from that meeting and obtain guidance from a more senior SGT than myself. I developed a work plan, prepared a training schedule and even did some initial counseling for new soldiers arriving to my section. All of this before I attend PLDC, I got my nose in the ARs and FMs and found the information myself. I am not trying to make myself look good or saying that everyone should do these things. I am offering the other side of this argument. In these tiring times for the Army, it is the responsibility of our Platoon Sergeants and Section Leaders to provide mentorship to the new NCOs. NCOs train soldiers, new NCOs are soldiers and being a good NCO is a continous learning process. It is imperative that our senior NCOs setup to the challenges faced with a young junior NCO corps. Don't tell me how to build a watch, just tell me what time it is! Let us not play a blame game or point out the shortcomings of other soldiers, remember I am a NCO, no one is more professional that I. Professionalism and Leadership starts from the top down!

[army sgt]

Bypassing the board does make easier for us E5s to get promotted, i read all the complaints and most of you guys make a lot of good points, to me the board is completely useless anyways, all you have to do is cram some AR in your brain and you are golden, that does not tell me or the sgt major at the board that you have the knowledge to confidently perform your job, i agree that the army should not mae this easy to get your 6, but with proper promotion counselings by your supervisors we will not have staff sergeant that cannot perform, their jobs, so all you senior leaders out there complaining about easy promotions, wy dont you counsel your NCO's and teach what they need to learn before they get the so call easy promotions.

[SSGp]

If the board is aimed at determining the Soldier's decision making ability then it is useful...

Proverb like Story Follows:

In my SGT board I was asked what I would do if a Soldier was acting crazy throwing things around in the motor pool. As I told the CSM my response he steadily increased the level of confrontation, until the Soldier said " Step away from me or I will punch you ". Now, with a CSM and 4 1SGs looking at me with my manhood on the line, I choose "option obvious" and said that I would REALLY get in the Soldier's face even if it did provoke a situation because myself and the other NCOs could take care of it physically if need be. BUT, the moral of the story is that sometimes you have to explode a Bomb in order to get rid of it.

NOW, That was a question that challenged me as it would most young SPCs. Since then, I have been to MANY boards sponsoring Soldiers as well as participating, even the SGT Morales board, and have yet to be challenged or see someone challenged in this way. I feel that this type of questioning should be included and if it is not the board is almost useless, except to show how the Soldier wil perform under a small amount of a certain type of pressure.

[jay_ellis04]

Ok, I think for the most part, the Non-Commissioned Officer Corps really looks down upon this "automatic" crap. I do as well. However, one being a firm believer in not bitching without a solution, I propose this, and I have ALWAYS been a firm believer in this.

1. GET RID OF THE SPC RANK!!! It is NOT needed. Screw having "automatic" Specialists. (I address ranks because I HATE being addressed as a fucking "E" grade).

2. Have a Company level board for advancement to Corporal. Begin mentoring these young Soldiers to LEAD and giving them the rights and responsibilities as a junior NCO.

3. Keep Sergeant's centralized the way it is. Battalion level board with the CSM convening and 1SGs as the panel.

4. DA select Staff Sergeants. Would this create a little larger load on Perscom? Sure. BUT it would do a couple of things.
(a). Have MSGs or 1SGs sit on THIS board. This would get them ready for the years down the line when they are selecting Sergeants First Class, Master Sergeants and Sergeant Majors.
(b). It would FORCE Staff Sergeants to PROPERLY write NCOERs with their Platoon Sergeants and First Sergeants critiquing them on it. The NCOER system is NOT broken. It is just that many Non-Commissioned Officers either don't know HOW to write one, or they really don't care.

This, in essence, from about year 2-3 would place that young Corporal's feet into the fire. We could in essence accelerate our promotions, save a little money on the slack ass Specialists by keeping them PFCs and kicking them out when they reach their RCP. The discipline would go up. The promotions would go up because it would be more competitive, and in the end, everyone's happy.

Only DOWNSIDE to this is, and currently it is part of the problem, is the senior Non-Commissioned Officers will HAVE to counsel their Corporals and Sergeants as required. We can bitch all day long about so and so getting promoted or not getting promoted, but the crux of the matter is, is when the First Sergeant comes to you with the C10 roster saying that "Specialist Jones is eligible for the Sergeant Board, he's going next month", you can counter with the entire battery of counselings as to why or why not this young Soldier should go. It will put YOU in the furnace in having to mentor these young Soldiers and actually doing your damn job. So, if we aren't willing to do this, then shut up. There is a fix to it, just not what most of the Non-Commissioned Officers are willing to do.

Take the following post link for instance. Whoever this is doesn't deserve any kind of NCO rank, let alone be in the Army period, in my honest opinion:

http://www.militarytimes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=388

Oh, and by the way, I'm a Staff Sergeant (P), as if the (P) really matters, but, I've always thought this way, and will always think this way until the day I retire.

[Biglew97]

Ok, I think for the most part, the Non-Commissioned Officer Corps really looks down upon this "automatic" crap. I do as well. However, one being a firm believer in not bitching without a solution, I propose this, and I have ALWAYS been a firm believer in this.

1. GET RID OF THE SPC RANK!!! It is NOT needed. Screw having "automatic" Specialists. (I address ranks because I HATE being addressed as a fucking "E" grade).

2. Have a Company level board for advancement to Corporal. Begin mentoring these young Soldiers to LEAD and giving them the rights and responsibilities as a junior NCO.

3. Keep Sergeant's centralized the way it is. Battalion level board with the CSM convening and 1SGs as the panel.

4. DA select Staff Sergeants. Would this create a little larger load on Perscom? Sure. BUT it would do a couple of things.
(a). Have MSGs or 1SGs sit on THIS board. This would get them ready for the years down the line when they are selecting Sergeants First Class, Master Sergeants and Sergeant Majors.
(b). It would FORCE Staff Sergeants to PROPERLY write NCOERs with their Platoon Sergeants and First Sergeants critiquing them on it. The NCOER system is NOT broken. It is just that many Non-Commissioned Officers either don't know HOW to write one, or they really don't care.

This, in essence, from about year 2-3 would place that young Corporal's feet into the fire. We could in essence accelerate our promotions, save a little money on the slack ass Specialists by keeping them PFCs and kicking them out when they reach their RCP. The discipline would go up. The promotions would go up because it would be more competitive, and in the end, everyone's happy.

Only DOWNSIDE to this is, and currently it is part of the problem, is the senior Non-Commissioned Officers will HAVE to counsel their Corporals and Sergeants as required. We can bitch all day long about so and so getting promoted or not getting promoted, but the crux of the matter is, is when the First Sergeant comes to you with the C10 roster saying that "Specialist Jones is eligible for the Sergeant Board, he's going next month", you can counter with the entire battery of counselings as to why or why not this young Soldier should go. It will put YOU in the furnace in having to mentor these young Soldiers and actually doing your damn job. So, if we aren't willing to do this, then shut up. There is a fix to it, just not what most of the Non-Commissioned Officers are willing to do.

Take the following post link for instance. Whoever this is doesn't deserve any kind of NCO rank, let alone be in the Army period, in my honest opinion:

http://www.militarytimes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=388

Oh, and by the way, I'm a Staff Sergeant (P), as if the (P) really matters, but, I've always thought this way, and will always think this way until the day I retire.

Love this Idea.

Correct me if i'm wrong because I'm not quite sure of the history but during WWII the TECH Sgts rank was created for positions that included a particular soldiers specialty i.e. Linguist or something similar. This evolved into the specialist 4,5,6... rank during the Vietnam War.

I feel The specialist rank is like a hold over for those that have no desire, or have yet determined if the Military is right for them. I have to agree with Jay that if we really want to develop our Future NCO's lets start with developing our junior NCOs. Get rid of the specialist rank for the combat arms MOS's and put the Corporal rank at the lead. This in turns greatly increases our efficiency and mastery of developing our future leaders.

This would be a great idea, those that have no desire or can't figure if this is what they want, get RCP'd

Again.....Great Idea.....

To comment on the (P) i.e SSG(P), when I was in the only time that this was used was when you had successfully passed the promotion board and PLDC, so when I see that it tells me that you have "paid your dues"....

[former31B]

Love this Idea.

This would be a great idea, those that have no desire or can't figure if this is what they want, get RCP'd



While I agree that the SPC rank has become a sort of holding pattern, I don't think the remedy is "up or out". Some people can best serve as followers or technical specialists. Not everyone is designed to or wants to be a leader. We have plenty of room in the Army for people who want to serve in non-leader positions. I'd like to see any changes to the promotion system allow for awarding such people for their continued good service.

With that said, we need to figure out a way to separate the wheat from the chafe at that rank. We all know some folks get too comfortable at the SPC rank. If they are unwilling or able to either strive for leadership positions or increase their job skills, then they should be RCP'd

[jay_ellis04]

While I agree that the SPC rank has become a sort of holding pattern, I don't think the remedy is "up or out". Some people can best serve as followers or technical specialists. Not everyone is designed to or wants to be a leader. We have plenty of room in the Army for people who want to serve in non-leader positions. I'd like to see any changes to the promotion system allow for awarding such people for their continued good service.

With that said, we need to figure out a way to separate the wheat from the chafe at that rank. We all know some folks get too comfortable at the SPC rank. If they are unwilling or able to either strive for leadership positions or increase their job skills, then they should be RCP'd

No offense, if we want "technical specialists" who don't want to lead Soldiers, then hire a Civilian. There is no way that anyone will ever convince me that we have "room" in the Army who want to serve in "non-leader" positions. Basically what that tells me is this, they're lazy, un-motivated and un-professional. If they don't want to lead...be a "technical specialist" elsewhere. The United States Army is an organization built on the Warrior Ethos and NEVER should ANY Soldier shy away from leadership and responsibility. From the Sergeant Major of the Army to the lowliest Private, EVERY soldier is a leader and should strive to better him/herself to the point that their "technical specialty" COMPLIMENTS their leadership and enables them to teach the younger generation that will one day fill their boots.

Now, as I stated in the original post, don't come with a problem without a solution. With the "I'd like to see" and "we need to figure out a way"...figure out those ways to impliment whatever it is you want to see. No one says that your ideas will be heard, but at least it may be the very catalyst to impliment your desires in what you would like to see achieved.

[ArmyMan97]

What really is a promotion board? It really is just an over decorated audition or tryout. The soldier or NCO attending tries to memorize as much information as possible. We have people working long shifts and they are working hard. They are in the fields of food service, MP, medics, mechanics and so on. So what if they can't or do not get some questions right at 10-20 minute board. What's stange is there are some sick call rangers and profile riders that go to the board and do well to get their promotbale status. Then there is the hard working blue collar soldier or NCO that passes his PT test consistently and botches the board because of a few questions. And what if the soldier naturally does not like the "interview" process but is willing to take bullets for his country as opposed to the talkative shammer that loves attention and exceeds at the board. And what about the reservist who is running around with E6 rank telling soldiers what to do. Because reservists and active duty occasionally work together.

Thread starter...open your eyes.



Now, I've read most of these responses and some or good. I've been in the military for over 10yrs and I'm one of those Joes who are in the category of having to reach 798 points to be promoted. I't took me nearly 6yrs to achieve the rank of SGT, through blood sweat and tears. I'm maxed out in everything except college due to where I've been stationed. Don't get me wrong, I have some college, but not alot. With me earning this rank, it made me realize what being apart of the NCO corp really means. I've had alot of GREAT NCO's who mentored and tutored me on being who I am today. I'm really pissed that this automatic crap is taking place b/c of people in my similar situation whom have to watch soldiers excel that really don't deserve it. Now I agree with one of the NCO's who responded with we having to adapt to the changes in the Army and mentor junior soldiers, but damn! What about those joes who work very hard to accomplish getting promoted. Without boards, you don't really know that individual. Information is EVERYTHING in the world today. Not knowing that can and will get some people hurt! I understand that the Army is hurting in the NCO ranks, but just don't give it away!

[renren40]

I say no, NO, the E-5,s that want to be E-6 should go to the board. The board was designed to put that E-5 under the microscope, it's a tedious operation, that must be done. When i was a 1SG , i had what i called (murder boards) prep only the best. I would bring in all my PSG's, and set up a promotion board. We would ask the hard question's, first aid, weapons, NBC, tactic's, enemy vehicles, etc... They also had to address, my mock board member's as 1SG's, so in essence i was preparing my E-7's for 1SG also. We had fun doing those board's, the soldier's looked forward to it, and so did the PSG's. If they couldn't pass my board, they didn't go to the B.N. Board until they could.

SGM (R) Willard Burfict

yeah if yall had enough time to do all that then there were not enough real missions for that unit...there should be more to the Army than boards....like first aid and shooting...boards are gay and for the nerdy side of the Army

[renren40]

Now, I've read most of these responses and some or good. I've been in the military for over 10yrs and I'm one of those Joes who are in the category of having to reach 798 points to be promoted. I't took me nearly 6yrs to achieve the rank of SGT, through blood sweat and tears. I'm maxed out in everything except college due to where I've been stationed. Don't get me wrong, I have some college, but not alot. With me earning this rank, it made me realize what being apart of the NCO corp really means. I've had alot of GREAT NCO's who mentored and tutored me on being who I am today. I'm really pissed that this automatic crap is taking place b/c of people in my similar situation whom have to watch soldiers excel that really don't deserve it. Now I agree with one of the NCO's who responded with we having to adapt to the changes in the Army and mentor junior soldiers, but damn! What about those joes who work very hard to accomplish getting promoted. Without boards, you don't really know that individual. Information is EVERYTHING in the world today. Not knowing that can and will get some people hurt! I understand that the Army is hurting in the NCO ranks, but just don't give it away!

Seriously? Can you really get to know an NCO or Soldier at a board? What information are you going to get or give in a metter of 10-30 minutes? Wanna get to know each other? Try a hardship deployment or even a daggum ftx. Or continue to make Joes and NCO's waste time and money preparing for an interview with 5 grizzled senior NCO's on profiles.

[jay_ellis04]

Seriously? Can you really get to know an NCO or Soldier at a board? What information are you going to get or give in a metter of 10-30 minutes? Wanna get to know each other? Try a hardship deployment or even a daggum ftx. Or continue to make Joes and NCO's waste time and money preparing for an interview with 5 grizzled senior NCO's on profiles.

Can you really get to know a Soldier at a board? Absolutely not. However, the board process is there for a reason, that reason being to make sure that the NCO that recommended that Soldier be promoted is doing HIS/HER job in recommending that particular Soldier. It is up to that Soldier's first line supervisor to ensure that that Soldier has what it takes to be promoted and if that Soldier can't "cut the mustard" then he/she needs to be counselled MONTHLY as to why they aren't going to attend that board. That's where the problem lies...NCOs not doing their jobs in mentoring and training their subordinates to lead young Soldiers. SPC/SGT so-and-so comes out on the C10 roster and they GO TO THE BOARD, regardless of whether they are ready to become NCOs or not because their first line supervisor was too lazy or complacent to actually counsel this young Soldier and train him correctly.

[LEAR44]

Wow the amount of Sergeants First Class & Staff Sergeants on a high horse in the Army is amazing. Everyone ranting about the non-board E-5 to E-6 promotion needs a reality check. They speak as if the NCO Corps is filled with a superb level of competent E-6's & E7's. The sad truth is that there are scrub E-6's and E-7's who may suck terribly but are effective enough to do the job the Army requires of them.

Also since the Army is a transformative force that is continually evolving, the skills by yesterday's E-6, is a class or single experience as an E-5. Also the boards don't really weed out anyones ability as an NCO, it only demonstrates a NCO's political acumen, ability to regurgitate information, and handle the pressure of direct questions, usually from close friends or colleagues of a higher rank.

The reality is simple the Army needs E-6's to fill certain slots. Those slots has evolved, and their is nothing past experience will do to fill those slots. One only needs a can do attitude of a NCO and the ability to learn.

It's time the whining stops, and have a little faith, if you haven't noticed the E-4 to E-5 non-board promotions were a success. I think many E-6's & E7's forget they are leaders, who are bound by duty to build the leaders of tomorrow, not members of an exclusive club. It's great you acheived the rank, now build the path for the tomorrows leaders, not complain attempting to close the door behind you.

Lear Riojas NCO

[renren40]

Wow the amount of Sergeants First Class & Staff Sergeants on a high horse in the Army is amazing. Everyone ranting about the non-board E-5 to E-6 promotion needs a reality check. They speak as if the NCO Corps is filled with a superb level of competent E-6's & E7's. The sad truth is that there are scrub E-6's and E-7's who may suck terribly but are effective enough to do the job the Army requires of them.

Also since the Army is a transformative force that is continually evolving, the skills by yesterday's E-6, is a class or single experience as an E-5. Also the boards don't really weed out anyones ability as an NCO, it only demonstrates a NCO's political acumen, ability to regurgitate information, and handle the pressure of direct questions, usually from close friends or colleagues of a higher rank.

The reality is simple the Army needs E-6's to fill certain slots. Those slots has evolved, and their is nothing past experience will do to fill those slots. One only needs a can do attitude of a NCO and the ability to learn.

It's time the whining stops, and have a little faith, if you haven't noticed the E-4 to E-5 non-board promotions were a success. I think many E-6's & E7's forget they are leaders, who are bound by duty to build the leaders of tomorrow, not members of an exclusive club. It's great you acheived the rank, now build the path for the tomorrows leaders, not complain attempting to close the door behind you.

Lear Riojas NCO

i agree wholeheartedly to your statments...thanks for the perspective...

So is it official? No more boards?

[Biglew97]

I think this whole conversation is a moot point now, since commanders in a combat zone can give battlefield promotions. Which goes on to say that those that perform there jobs get promoted, those that don't wait for another day, this would also include a commander promoting over guys that have time in service but may be scrubs.

I think that a lot of the animosity here is from guys getting left out of the auto promotion arena who are in overstrength MOS's, and these guys have been working really hard at trying to improve their positions within the Army, they are hard chargers that know there jobs, and see a lot of young troopers getting promoted ahead of them and seeing these individuals making more money and receiving more authorityas a result.

Lets face it, if you are in an overstrength MOS your promotions are few and far between as the have been for some time to include times of Peace, war time is no exception.

Promotions are granted by "THE NEEDS OF THE ARMY" so if you are in an overstrength MOS good luck, if you are in a combat arms MOS "risk = reward" This may not seem fair and equitable but to be realistic, the army doesn't need a whole bunch of E-6 Para-Legal clerks. The army needs Infantry, Engineers, Artillery, Tankers, Scouts, Snipers, and any of the 18 series, or those of you not familiar with that designation, Special Operations Soldiers.

On an economic level, if you are a Special Forces Operator and have operational experience, Blackwater will pay a premium for you services, generously more than what you will make in the Army. For the Army to be competitive in the retention these soldiers, they get promotions faster and receive large re-enlistment bonuses and incentives...

These wars have taken a toll on the Troops, their retention, and longevity. The reality is that the Department of the Army is getting creative in retaining these troopers and to be quite honest these men and woman that serve in hostile areas have probably earned these promotions and don't come by them lightly.

Those that are being passed over quit being bitter and Re-class if you want to be promoted quicker.

Don't take away from those guys that have traded fire with the enemy in hostile areas, kicked in doors and exposed themselves to constant agression or ran a patrol with IA, INP, or IP, that looked corrupt and didn't like it but did it anyway.

These soldiers have learned more about leadership and compassion and taking care of Each other than most of you ever will and I'm sorry if they can't tell you where MWR is because quite frankly they haven't been home longer that 90 days between deployments and train-ups.

[ken916peterson]

:confused: i am a pfc at ft sill i won a least 5 boards went to wlc and made the list iorn leader and i see ncos who dont know the things that i do i want to correct them in there mistakes but it is simply not my place so i sit back do as i am told i do not think that doing the board and wlc what is needed to be a leader beceouse i am not ready to lead and i have allready done them i think you can be tought and molded into being a good leader but honestly it is something your born with you shoot out of the whoum with the makings of a good leader if you wernt brought up with what it takes you probley will never have it

[17yrballbuster]

.



The NCOs doing this stuff are the ones who will get promoted because of the no-board policy.
WHAT?


DONT BLAME THIS ON E-5'S AND E-6'S.. I HAVE 17YRS AND SEVERAL DEPLOYMENTS BEHIND ME. UNITED FRONT? PLEASE DO NOT COME ON A PUBLIC FORUM AND BAD MOUTH FELLOW NCO'S REGARDLESS OF HOW THEY ATTAINED IT. IF YOU SEE A DEFICIENCY...CORRECT IT,,,retrain.

You made a statement that bypassing boards makes unready NCO's- you may be right; however, the lack of knowledge, bearing, and discipline, that is mentioned, potentially points more to, a lack of or poor mentoring (TM LDR all the way to PSG). There are many different angles to every story, many fingers to point in every direction- unfortunate that few will accept responsibilityfor their action or lack there of.
The real question is what do YOU as an NCO do about it.

Some one STILL has to recommend and approve these promotions - who would that be PSG?

If an E-4 makes a grade, or an E-5 makes a grade and is not prepared to wear it..His/her leaders have failed him/her.

Heed the creed

[smarg]

It's hard coming to grips with the value sets of today's 18-30 year-old soldiers. Truth and honesty are values that are not usually taught to them by their parent(s). Sad, really. And, it will only get worse.

[FatCat40]

Re: Bypassing boards makes for unready E-6s

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i am a pfc at ft sill i won a least 5 boards went to wlc and made the list iorn leader and i see ncos who dont know the things that i do i want to correct them in there mistakes but it is simply not my place so i sit back do as i am told i do not think that doing the board and wlc what is needed to be a leader beceouse i am not ready to lead and i have allready done them i think you can be tought and molded into being a good leader but honestly it is something your born with you shoot out of the whoum with the makings of a good leader if you wernt brought up with what it takes you probley will never have it


Good lord, did your school not offer basic English classes where things such as grammar, spelling, punctuation and proper syntax were taught?