Air Force PT Program

[Dereksurfing]

Burn Out Push Ups In one minute
Burn Out Sit Ups in one minute
Waste size
1 1/2 mile run

Why is this a test of fitness?

I am a former smoker and after 2 years of being on profile because of a stroke I took the PT test and score an 89. I was in the worst shape of my entire life and wouldn't have lasted even one day in the combat zone. However, the Air Force says I'm good to go. BTW, i quit smoking.

I think the PT program is lacking in a big way.

What do you think?

[Bunit2]

I think you have a valid point. The Air Force PT program is too generous in some areas and unfair in others. Basically, if you have good upper body strength you are good, because the average person can fare pretty well on 1 1/2 mile run. The waist measurement is unfair because some guys like myself can never max out because I am 6'4" 230 and have about a 34 inch waist. To get max points I need to have a 32, which I think is unreasonable. Ironically enough though, there are many people that think the PT test is too difficult. This is even more evident every time I participate in a wing run and I see several people falling out of the formation because they just can't run that far. Keep in mind that the wing run pace is usually close to a walk. I think it is an embarassment to our force that we are that out of shape and I commend you for comming back from cigarette use and a stroke to score so high. Overall, I think we need to reevaluate the PT program but it has to start with the supervisors and shop chiefs. These are the people that have to enforce PT time. Everywhere I have been does not require unit PT. I am cool with that because I am pretty athletic and exercising with the unit generally slows me down, but there are many people that will not exercise at all if you don't force them to show up in formation. Also, I am a maintainer and the excuse I hear from many units is that the mission won't allow them to take part of the workday to send everyone to PT. My suggestion is that each shop send a small group of people during different times during the week. This keeps supervision from having to extend the workday in order to have PT. Some workcenters actually make the workday 1 1/2 hours longer in order to have PT. This way you still WORK for eight hours

[FGO]

Has anyone heard about doing away with the cycle test (for those of us who can't run) and use the 3 mile walk? The folks at the HAWC at my base (Wright-Patt) said the AF is going to do that, but they didn't know when. Due to arthritis in my knee, I am no longer allowed to run. Unfortunately, my score on the cycle test is horribly low (got 3 points out of 50). However, I just tried the 3 mile walk and did it in 40 minutes, which would earn me 39 out of 50 points on the PT test. I say drop the cycle, and bring on the walk!

[Matai]

I think if PT is either a PASS / FAIL system on the EPR why don't we make PT a PASS / FAIL test.

I remember in Basic Training that we had to do our 1.5 mile run in 11:45 to pass. For many that is easy to do. For some, not so easy to do. We also had a minimum number of push-ups and sit-ups that were required. We had to meet that to get out of Basic Training. When we get into the "operational" Air Force, we can then do less than the requirements to get into the Air Force and still pass. That does seem a little odd to me.

We should set a specific amount of push-ups and sit-ups and set that as a requirement to pass. Then set a required run time and force people to meet that run time. Stop letting people pass the PT test that can't even meet the minimum requirements to get into the Air Force.

[FGO]

You're right. Why have one standard to get into the AF, and another (lower) standard to stay in? Someone explain the logic of that one, if you can!!!

[KT3]

Everything in BMT was held to an higher standard. Walking, talking, remembering, saluting, taking care of the uniform, etc. Every service's PT tests are flawed. Navy has the sitted toe reach (they just have to hold their toes for 10 seconds). The PT test is basically seeing if you have been excercising regularly. It would be more productive if they did pop PT tests and not schedule them. But if they did that then people would be mad and whine that they were not given time to prepare.

[PUALLOFF]

Everything in BMT was held to an higher standard. Walking, talking, remembering, saluting, taking care of the uniform, etc. Every service's PT tests are flawed. Navy has the sitted toe reach (they just have to hold their toes for 10 seconds). The PT test is basically seeing if you have been excercising regularly. It would be more productive if they did pop PT tests and not schedule them. But if they did that then people would be mad and whine that they were not given time to prepare.

No it's more because the unit's out hide monitors have enough problems without adding this.

[MACHINE666]

Let the job demands determine the level of fitness. I can't reiterate this enough, but yes I know how we have the whole 'eye test' for the public and what not.

We had an obese girl in my office deploy to do TCN duty in the sandbox. When she came back, she had lost significant amount of weight but was still a big girl. By the same token, a significant portion of the Army is overweight but built Ford-tough. I see them all the time here in Germany, I should know. If we're going to become more like them and resort to becoming ILO trigger-pullers then I would imagine we can allow for the same.

[Mateo820506]

Machine666....you know I couldn't agree with you more. Let the job determine physical fitness standards. I could care less if an Admin person can run a 300 PFT in the Marine Corps. Although we have that standard. I could care less if an Admin person can fireman carry someone 100ft. What good does that do?

[KT3]

No it's more because the unit's out hide monitors have enough problems without adding this.
Try saying that again, but make sense next time.

I do agree that your job should determine your fitness level, but everyone should mantain a certain level of fitness. Three people from my squadron got voluntold (forced) to do an year deployment to do an ILO job. Their typical job is desk jockeys (requires little fitness), but now they are in over 100 degree weather with 30 - 50 lbs on their back, and expected to go out on dismounted/mounted patrols at hours at a time. This job requires a higher fitness level, and the few months that were in between the desk job to a combat-type job doesn't give most people time to adjust. Esp. if the Airman was very lazy, and did not do PT since BMT with a beer gut way beyond the PT standards.

[PUALLOFF]

Try saying that again, but make sense next time.

I do agree that your job should determine your fitness level, but everyone should mantain a certain level of fitness. Three people from my squadron got voluntold (forced) to do an year deployment to do an ILO job. Their typical job is desk jockeys (requires little fitness), but now they are in over 100 degree weather with 30 - 50 lbs on their back, and expected to go out on dismounted/mounted patrols at hours at a time. This job requires a higher fitness level, and the few months that were in between the desk job to a combat-type job doesn't give most people time to adjust. Esp. if the Airman was very lazy, and did not do PT since BMT with a beer gut way beyond the PT standards.

Well excuse me if you can't understand that!

[technomage1]

I am a former smoker and after 2 years of being on profile because of a stroke I took the PT test and score an 89. I was in the worst shape of my entire life and wouldn't have lasted even one day in the combat zone. However, the Air Force says I'm good to go. BTW, i quit smoking.

I think the PT program is lacking in a big way.

What do you think?

My question to you is how sore were you the next day? Did you throw up after ther run? I score 89's routinely and, while I'm comfortably tired afterwards, I don't want to puke nor am I sore the next day. If you're any of those things you are "fooling" the PT system - and before you congratulate yourself on that, realize that you're only in the end hurting yourself.

The AF needs a fitness test, on that I think we can all agree. Of course, the devil is in the details. You want a test that can be administered anywhere with a minimum of equipment required, and that is fair for most people. I like the run. It's easy to administer, doesn't require anything but a flat bit of road or track, decent weather, and a stop watch. Same for the push ups and sit ups, just a stopwatch. These measurements are quantifiable, in other words you know if you do x your score will be y.

I'd agree that the body comp. needs a bit of work and that the bike test should be scrapped. The problem with the bike test is that it's supposed to be a qualitative measurement, and the member has no idea what score they're going to get, nor do I think based on past experience that it really measures fitness acurately.

While I think the PT program could be improved, I don't think it's hurting in a big way. I do think some people game the system, but in the end if you deploy and drop dead from heatstroke because of that, well, that's on you. The AF isn't responsible for your fitness level, your commander isn't, your supervisor isn't - you are.

[Mateo820506]

To tell you the truth the AirForce has the easiest PT standard of the 4 major branches. I don't really know why you are complaining so much. My worst, out of shape, staying up all night playing video games or drinking and smoking Marines could pass your test. So when you say they are now in 100 degree heat and carrying around 30-50lbs on their backs and can't hack it. Well now you know why. There should be a minimum standard for each MOS. But at the same time allow that MOS to decide what it is. If you have to get voluntold for something it is part of the job. Not only is it good for you but good for the service to stay in shape. Even if it is making the minimum. Being able to do something doesn't mean you are physically in shape and can perform it. Most often or not it is their mental toughness that tells them they can and will do it. Sure we all like to complain/vent, it is natural human response.

[technomage1]

So when you say they are now in 100 degree heat and carrying around 30-50lbs on their backs and can't hack it. Well now you know why. There should be a minimum standard for each MOS. But at the same time allow that MOS to decide what it is. If you have to get voluntold for something it is part of the job. Not only is it good for you but good for the service to stay in shape. Even if it is making the minimum. Being able to do something doesn't mean you are physically in shape and can perform it. Most often or not it is their mental toughness that tells them they can and will do it. Sure we all like to complain/vent, it is natural human response.

I would agree that there should be a minimum level of fitness for the AF as a whole. However, 99% of our people will never walk around in 100 degree heat carrying 30-50 pounds on their backs Deployed or home station, that simply isn't a job requirement for most people in the AF, with the exception of carrying our bags to our living quarters. What being in shape will do is allow us to complete our jobs more efficiently in extreme climates, and lessen our chances of illness.

I tend to be a desk jockey when at home station but have a very physical job when deployed, so people in my career field need to keep in shape for that.

I 100% agree with you that it's a mental issue as well as a physical one, and that it's good for both the service and you to stay in shape.

I would disagree that the AF has the easiest standard of the 4 services. To my mind, that particular "honor" goes to the Navy. If I was in the Navy, my AF "good" score of 89 would be well into the "excellent" range.

[Mateo820506]

I know that the Navy has a pretty easy program. But they atleast have a formal program. Not that they actually adhere to it. Bunch of overweight shipmates. The most overweight branch I would have to say.

Oh and I know enough of the AF PT. I was stationed on an AF base for a year and I use to go PT with my fiancee's unit, which was in the AF. Done multiple deployments with interservice relations. So thanks for the comment and reputation points. But don't assume things you don't know for a fact. When it comes to exercising brains. I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that Marines stay away from that area of training. I wouldn't hesitate to say that Marines generally undergo the most amount of training. Both mentally and physically.

[MACHINE666]

I know that the Navy has a pretty easy program. But they atleast have a formal program. Not that they actually adhere to it. Bunch of overweight shipmates. The most overweight branch I would have to say.


I dunno - The Village People were in shape when they were in the Navy - not all seamen look like Homer Simpson

:D :D :D :D :D

[Mateo820506]

I dunno - The Village People were in shape when they were in the Navy - not all seamen look like Homer Simpson

:D :D :D :D :D

Well I know not all shipmates look like Homer Simpson. Just saying it would be interesting to find out which branch of the service really is the most overweight. But my money is on the Navy.

[warr1or]

Just weighing in my opinion here - I don't think the AF PT Test is all that bad, I think what's more to blame is the Air Force culture. The PT standards have been in effect 3-4 years now (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong). While I have seen squadrons that seem to effectivly integrate PT into the workday, there are others that have totally failed to do so. One of the problems cited was that PT was in the morning, yet the squadron had no shower facilities.

Then there is the office mentality of going out to eat every day, at the Arnold's Pizza or the Burger King that can be found on (just about) every base in the world.

While I may not agree with the Air Force Ideal of the cookie-cutter Airmen with the 30 inch waist, I do think that a part of the work day should be dedicated to group PT functions. It doesn't matter that every Airman isn't a front-line troops, neither is every Marine, soldier, or sailor. What does matter is that good physical fitness improves mental fitness and well-being. I also believe that to get the Airmen out of the cubicle and into PT gear there needs to be some serious shake down on bases - like getting rid of the candy and soda machines, and promoting a healthier eating lifestyle.

[technomage1]

Just weighing in my opinion here - I don't think the AF PT Test is all that bad, I think what's more to blame is the Air Force culture. The PT standards have been in effect 3-4 years now (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong). While I have seen squadrons that seem to effectivly integrate PT into the workday, there are others that have totally failed to do so. One of the problems cited was that PT was in the morning, yet the squadron had no shower facilities.

Then there is the office mentality of going out to eat every day, at the Arnold's Pizza or the Burger King that can be found on (just about) every base in the world.

While I may not agree with the Air Force Ideal of the cookie-cutter Airmen with the 30 inch waist, I do think that a part of the work day should be dedicated to group PT functions. It doesn't matter that every Airman isn't a front-line troops, neither is every Marine, soldier, or sailor. What does matter is that good physical fitness improves mental fitness and well-being. I also believe that to get the Airmen out of the cubicle and into PT gear there needs to be some serious shake down on bases - like getting rid of the candy and soda machines, and promoting a healthier eating lifestyle.

I agree that our culture needs to change, and that some squadrons do better on this than others. I wouldn't strip the candy bars off the commissary shelves, that's going a little far. As for the lunch options, well I have to say in order to get a healthier lunch I've packed mine for years.

I agree with the morning PT point. I don't know why a lot of squadrons do this. It's heck on those of us that live off base (and no, I have no choice being single I must live downtown). We either have to cram into the packed gym showers or rush home and shower (which means no breakfast). To me it is a lot better to have it at the end of the duty day. That way if anyone wants to go over the minimum cardio time they can.

[THELADYKT]

Unfortunately getting people before they get into work is a lot easier than getting them to leave at the end of the day. Customers seems to mind less if you open late on certain days than if you tell them thay have to leave your office/building and come back tomorrow because you are closing early.

But I agree with the shower thing. When we did PT starting at 0600, (300+) people could either drive all the way home or fight for the 4 showers at the gym.

[ringjamesa]

To tell you the truth the AirForce has the easiest PT standard of the 4 major branches. I don't really know why you are complaining so much. My worst, out of shape, staying up all night playing video games or drinking and smoking Marines could pass your test. So when you say they are now in 100 degree heat and carrying around 30-50lbs on their backs and can't hack it. Well now you know why. There should be a minimum standard for each MOS. But at the same time allow that MOS to decide what it is. If you have to get voluntold for something it is part of the job. Not only is it good for you but good for the service to stay in shape. Even if it is making the minimum. Being able to do something doesn't mean you are physically in shape and can perform it. Most often or not it is their mental toughness that tells them they can and will do it. Sure we all like to complain/vent, it is natural human response.

Really? And on what to you base this "truth"?

USMC Minimum Fitness Requirments for Each PFT Event - Males

Age 17-26 27-39 40-45 46+
Pull-Ups 3 3 3 3
Crunches 50 45 45 40
3-Mile Run 28:00 29:00 30:00 33:00

[technomage1]

Customers seems to mind less if you open late on certain days than if you tell them thay have to leave your office/building and come back tomorrow because you are closing early.


This is a leadership issue. If your leadership would support you closing at 1500 to PT vs. opening up at 0900 for morning PT, you could do it. There is really no difference in the times that you are "open". And PT is a part of your job, just as much as customer service.

As a customer to various base agencies I've never minded if they close early or open late for PT as long as the hours are clearly posted and changes to the hours are published.

Before our last base commander left, we shut down the entire base - ME only exempt (and there weren't many) for PT every Wednesday afternoon at 1500. Lodging, the Post office, everything.

[THELADYKT]

I agree that it is leadership. I get what you are saying but unfortunately the leadership isn't going to be the one in the ID card office having to listen to the complains from the dependents and retirees.

But I agree with the notion.

[technomage1]

I agree that it is leadership. I get what you are saying but unfortunately the leadership isn't going to be the one in the ID card office having to listen to the complains from the dependents and retirees.

But I agree with the notion.

True. But it's about expectations. If the NCOIC explains calmy to the complaining one that they are required to attend PT - and it's the standard across the base - I think you'd be suprised how much the complaints would drop off over time. Honestly, what difference would it make for 99% of our customer service type operations to close an hour early 3 times a week?

But to make things harder on the AD simply to avoid complaints from dependents and retirees is weak leadership.

[THELADYKT]

Honestly, what difference would it make for 99% of our customer service type operations to close an hour early 3 times a week?

As far as the health of the force, wonderful. Ahhh to dream (for my hubby and my cohorts still on AD)



But to make things harder on the AD simply to avoid complaints from dependents and retirees is weak leadership.

Agreed

[CarolinaSarge]

Really? And on what to you base this "truth"?

USMC Minimum Fitness Requirments for Each PFT Event - Males

Age 17-26 27-39 40-45 46+
Pull-Ups 3 3 3 3
Crunches 50 45 45 40
3-Mile Run 28:00 29:00 30:00 33:00

Agreed

I run the 1.5 mile in 11:45 and do 50/50 on my push-up situps and am by no means the epitome of physical fitness. By the USMC standards I would ace the test.

Whose standards are lower now Mateo?

[PUALLOFF]

Just weighing in my opinion here - I don't think the AF PT Test is all that bad, I think what's more to blame is the Air Force culture. The PT standards have been in effect 3-4 years now (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong). While I have seen squadrons that seem to effectivly integrate PT into the workday, there are others that have totally failed to do so. One of the problems cited was that PT was in the morning, yet the squadron had no shower facilities.

Then there is the office mentality of going out to eat every day, at the Arnold's Pizza or the Burger King that can be found on (just about) every base in the world.

While I may not agree with the Air Force Ideal of the cookie-cutter Airmen with the 30 inch waist, I do think that a part of the work day should be dedicated to group PT functions. It doesn't matter that every Airman isn't a front-line troops, neither is every Marine, soldier, or sailor. What does matter is that good physical fitness improves mental fitness and well-being. I also believe that to get the Airmen out of the cubicle and into PT gear there needs to be some serious shake down on bases - like getting rid of the candy and soda machines, and promoting a healthier eating lifestyle.

It's really a best fit of what can be done time wise and with unit resources. It's one thing administering this to a small unit, but try keeping up with a very large SQ with a 24/7 real world mission...it's a nighmare and those that think it's so easy to do or make 'tougher" don't know what they are asking.

[james]

Get over your selves, every service has it's fair share of fat serviceman and workout freaks. I have worked with all services and it's the same B.S. . Just to set the record straight, the Navy is pretty strict on P.T. failures, out of weight standards, not recommended for advancement, three P.T. failures and your out on admin discharge. Cannot complete the PFA, discharged on medical issues. Do we have fat sailors that work the system and milk it, of course. The P.T. failures is one way the Navy is using to downsize it's over all force. Fail anyone of the four criteria, pushups, situps, sit and reach, swim , and run and it's an auto failure with one strike towards separation. So how do I know this, my previous command separated 15 sailors for PFA and out of weight standards. No questions asked, it's in black and white on the PFA instruction. On the other hand, I have seen some of the most ultra fit sailors who can smoke any service mamber of other forces, special ops or not. Get your facts straight before pointing fingers and look in the mirror. My Navy does much more than just man warships, i.e. Navy Seals, Navy Divers, SWCC,EOD, FMF, Seabeas, VBSS, just to name a few. Ironman challenge, Hellweek, strongman competion, etc. created by members of the U.S. Navy.

[Mateo820506]

USMC Minimum Fitness Requirments for Each PFT Event - Males

Age 17-26 27-39 40-45 46+
Pull-Ups 3 3 3 3
Crunches 50 45 45 40
3-Mile Run 28:00 29:00 30:00 33:00





Agreed

I run the 1.5 mile in 11:45 and do 50/50 on my push-up situps and am by no means the epitome of physical fitness. By the USMC standards I would ace the test.

Whose standards are lower now Mateo?


You definately would have failed.You really don't know the USMC PFT. Sure each event you make the minimum. But by no means making the minimum means you actually passed the test. Yeah leave it to the Marines to score it like that, I know it sounds stupid. But we are based off of points and classes. There are 3 classes (realistically 4, the failed class....that's you). If you are not a 1st class then you can expect to be put on remedial PT and nutritional classes or possibly discharged. I'd recommed discharge for you, some people just can't hack it. Oh and we do pullups not pushups.

But my money is still on the Navy.

[technomage1]

Get over your selves, every service has it's fair share of fat serviceman and workout freaks. I have worked with all services and it's the same B.S. . Just to set the record straight, the Navy is pretty strict on P.T. failures, out of weight standards, not recommended for advancement, three P.T. failures and your out on admin discharge. Cannot complete the PFA, discharged on medical issues. Do we have fat sailors that work the system and milk it, of course. The P.T. failures is one way the Navy is using to downsize it's over all force. Fail anyone of the four criteria, pushups, situps, sit and reach, swim , and run and it's an auto failure with one strike towards separation. So how do I know this, my previous command separated 15 sailors for PFA and out of weight standards. No questions asked, it's in black and white on the PFA instruction. On the other hand, I have seen some of the most ultra fit sailors who can smoke any service mamber of other forces, special ops or not. Get your facts straight before pointing fingers and look in the mirror. My Navy does much more than just man warships, i.e. Navy Seals, Navy Divers, SWCC,EOD, FMF, Seabeas, VBSS, just to name a few. Ironman challenge, Hellweek, strongman competion, etc. created by members of the U.S. Navy.

I agree every service has it's fit and unfit people. The AF separates people for failures too. We have our own fitness events as well, the AF marathon to name one. There are ultra fit Navy people, of that I have no doubt. I've also been stationed around Navy and seen a lot of fat sailors. I see the same on AF bases, too.

However, the fact remains that now our standards are tougher than yours. I actually was tuned into this fact when our new PT program came out. I was chatting to a sailor during a long a/c layover. This sailor was a good ten years younger than me, yet had darn close to the same run times and other numbers that I did. I was curious enough about this that I looked it up online later - and, sure enough found our PT standards were tougher for every age group. This hasn't changed.

This isn't about trashing those standards - someone has to be the lowest of all the services, and for many years it was the AF. Now we've changed, and it's the Navy. This doesn't mean the Navy standards are bad or that we're bashing you. That's just a simple fact. If they work for you, great.

The only part of the Navy test that makes me scratch my head is the stretch test. I don't see the logic behind that one.

[Shrike]

The only part of the Navy test that makes me scratch my head is the stretch test. I don't see the logic behind that one.

The Air Force may have come close to having that as part of our program. I don't know how long you've been in, but around '99, when the USAF was gathering data to use in the creation of the new PT program, flexibility was part of the collection process (along with pushups and situps). You'd sit on the floor with your feet apart and a yardstick laid from your crotch to a point between your feet, and stretch forward with your hands. The distance you stretched and held for a couple of seconds was recorded.

Obviously, the higher-ups decided to throw that one out.

[Measure Man]

I bet it would change the perspective of some of guys who are always screaming "females should have to meet the same standards as males"...if they had to stretch as far as the women can.

As far as why it should be a requirement..that is simple...the less flexible you are the more injury-prone you are. Makes as much sense as any other "fitness" criteria.

Want a combat connection? Okay...the more flexible you are...the easier it will be to extract yourself from a Humvee rollover.

[Shrike]

I bet it would change the perspective of some of guys who are always screaming "females should have to meet the same standards as males"...if they had to stretch as far as the women can.

As far as why it should be a requirement..that is simple...the less flexible you are the more injury-prone you are. Makes as much sense as any other "fitness" criteria.

Want a combat connection? Okay...the more flexible you are...the easier it will be to extract yourself from a Humvee rollover.

Plus, you forgot that...




...wait for it...




...flexibility is the key to Air Power.


:tongue:

[JHawkG33K]

You're killing me Shrike! LMAO

We need to remenber the PT program is about getting people to be more fit. Yes, there are plenty of people who work the system, but they only get so far before they get caught. In the past four years I have seen people in my units healthier, more active, and for the most part happier with themselves. (Yes there are some moaners, but they were like that before the new PT program was implemented)

We are a healthier group of people than we were four years ago, the changes seem to be for the better.

[james]

O.K. , blah blah blah, our standarsd are better than yours, who really cares. If you really want to test your standards go to Naval Amphibious Base Coronado, Ca and test your standards against the sailors your downplaying and then if you can beat every average Diver, SWCC, BUDS candidate more props to you. PT standards do not win wars or battles, warheads on foreheads do. In the end this is all irrelevant because high velocity propelled lead will tear through the fittest or fattest servicemember. Remember, war is about winning and securing America's future not becoming some poster boy for FLEX or other crappy magazines that are all show and no play.

[JHawkG33K]

O.K. , blah blah blah, our standarsd are better than yours, who really cares. If you really want to test your standards go to Naval Amphibious Base Coronado, Ca and test your standards against the sailors your downplaying and then if you can beat every average Diver, SWCC, BUDS candidate more props to you.

The same could be said about our average CCT, PJ, FAC, ... , etc. Every service has personnel who excel. Th purpose of this is to discuss why this should be considered a measurement of fitness.

It's better than what we had before, hopefully people take it seriously and try to better themselves instead of remaining sedentary.

[KnuckleBuster]

USMC Minimum Fitness Requirments for Each PFT Event - Males

Age 17-26 27-39 40-45 46+
Pull-Ups 3 3 3 3
Crunches 50 45 45 40
3-Mile Run 28:00 29:00 30:00 33:00







You definately would have failed.You really don't know the USMC PFT. Sure each event you make the minimum. But by no means making the minimum means you actually passed the test. Yeah leave it to the Marines to score it like that, I know it sounds stupid. But we are based off of points and classes. There are 3 classes (realistically 4, the failed class....that's you). If you are not a 1st class then you can expect to be put on remedial PT and nutritional classes or possibly discharged. I'd recommed discharge for you, some people just can't hack it. Oh and we do pullups not pushups.

But my money is still on the Navy.

The Marine Corps should be in the best shape, not only because your job pretty much demands it but also because of these facts:

The Marine Corps is the youngest, most junior, and least married of the four military Services
• 67% of Marines are 25 or younger
• 25% of Marines are not old enough to legally consume alcohol
• 39% of Marines are LCpl or below (other Services are between 20% - 23%)
• 45% of Marines are married (next closest is Navy at 55%)
• One Officer per 8.49 Marines (next closest is Navy with one Officer per 5.41 Sailors)

[technomage1]

My biggest beefs with organized PT are:

1) morning PT
2) wasting time
3) interferring with my personal workout program w/last minute changes

I hate having my time wasted with formation runs, or "workouts" like dodgeball. If it rains, at least give people the option to do cardio instead of playing some team sport. Honestly, I'd rather run in the rain.

I (along with most other people who do well on the PT test) have my own workout program that I follow on my own time. So if the squadron PT monitor decides one day to do speedwork, well, guess what I've done a distance run the night before, so I'm not going to be happy. At least let us know what to expect ahead of time.

My vision of perfect PT: Afternoon session. Group stretching, pushups, situps. Given option to run or do 1/2 hour cardio.

[Shrike]

You're killing me Shrike! LMAO

We need to remenber the PT program is about getting people to be more fit. Yes, there are plenty of people who work the system, but they only get so far before they get caught. In the past four years I have seen people in my units healthier, more active, and for the most part happier with themselves. (Yes there are some moaners, but they were like that before the new PT program was implemented)

We are a healthier group of people than we were four years ago, the changes seem to be for the better.

I agree. I've been in for 19+ years, and I'm in better shape now than I was 10 years ago. Quitting smoking four years ago and the new PT program are to thank for that.

[CarolinaSarge]

My biggest beefs with organized PT are:

1) morning PT
2) wasting time
3) interferring with my personal workout program w/last minute changes

I hate having my time wasted with formation runs, or "workouts" like dodgeball. If it rains, at least give people the option to do cardio instead of playing some team sport. Honestly, I'd rather run in the rain.

I (along with most other people who do well on the PT test) have my own workout program that I follow on my own time. So if the squadron PT monitor decides one day to do speedwork, well, guess what I've done a distance run the night before, so I'm not going to be happy. At least let us know what to expect ahead of time.

My vision of perfect PT: Afternoon session. Group stretching, pushups, situps. Given option to run or do 1/2 hour cardio.

All 3 of the issues you have seem to be problems with YOUR UNIT'S PT program not the AF PT program. Your PTLs and UFPM are obviously not doing their job by scheduling out and holding to a preplanned PT schedule. Failure to follow a predesignated and well-thought-out PT programalso can cause serious weaknesses in the program itself as alot of times you don't get the proper diversification and full muscle group targeting that you would if you planned out the routines. If it's a question of what time your unit does PT, keep in mind that as per the AF PT AFI 10-248, unit commander's must allow at least 1.5 hours of regular duty hours 3 times per week to allow you to PT (AFI 10-248 para 1.13.4).

That being said, If it is too early in the morning for PT for you, then go to bed earlier. I am a night owl so I suffer from the same issue. If it isn't early enough and cuts into your work time, then make the suggestion. If there are other people (not just 3 or 4 out of 20) that have the same issues, it may be something you should take up with your PTL. It all hinges off of your duty requirements and schedules really.

As far as interfering with your personal PT program, it's called flexibility. I workout on my own as well, and if I have to I shift around or change workouts as necessary. It's part of being in the military

As far as the perfect PT goes, the problem with must unit PT sessions is that is EXACTLY what they do and then they wonder why nobody is motivated and/or improves. You WILL NOT improve your run times by just running 1 1/2 miles all the time, or improve your pushups and situps by just doing 50/50 every time. You will see some improvement at first, but eventually you will plateau. You have to diversify workouts and run/train for more than your target (i.e. if you are training for 1.5 miles, run 3 or 4). If you do the same workouts repeatedly, people get bored and lose motivation. Dodgeball, you're right, that is pretty much a joke. We do sports in our unit PT, but in small doses and they are intense (i.e. soccer or ultimate frisbee that you constantly are sprinting). Sports are good for comraderie, and if the right ones are used, it is a good way to hide and make fun a good workout. With the formation runs, have your leadership read the AFI, formation runs are HIGHLY DISCOURAGED because it slows down the faster runners and causes injuries by the folks having to slow down their stride. (AFI 10-248, para 2-4)

Besides, the purpose of the AF PT program is NOT to train you for the AFPT Test, it is to get you Fit to Fight. Most people and units lose sight of that.

[THELADYKT]

Actually what is says is:


1.13.4. Ensures all members are permitted up to 90 minutes of DT for PT 3 times weekly (Regular component only).


This is (can be) separate from unit led PT. Not to mention gives them the flexibility of not giving it (up to being the key words).

The "mandatory one" says (not that its followed)


1.13.3.1. Commanders will identify by written policy a unit-based program led by trained PTL at least three times per week, specifying frequency of required individual participation. The commander will provide FPM with copy of written policy.


This is the one they are supposed to do but it is far a few between that I've seen it done. This one can also be done before or after DT if they want which is what my last base did. Everyone does PT from 6-7 or so, then rush the showers and work a regular duty day on top of it. (12 hrs + for some). This is a major cause for non-motivation too at a couple of places I've been.


Wish we didnt do formation runs at my last base. The last one I participated in, I ended up with a fracture in my foot and ended up on profile for 6+ weeks. Ugh.
But of course HIGHLY DISCOURAGED leaves them the "flexibility" to make them mandatory still.


I agree with you that they need to make them more variety. Just training to the test is not going to get you very far as far as overall fitness.

[technomage1]

All 3 of the issues you have seem to be problems with YOUR UNIT'S PT program not the AF PT program. Your PTLs and UFPM are obviously not doing their job by scheduling out and holding to a preplanned PT schedule. Failure to follow a predesignated and well-thought-out PT programalso can cause serious weaknesses in the program itself as alot of times you don't get the proper diversification and full muscle group targeting that you would if you planned out the routines. If it's a question of what time your unit does PT, keep in mind that as per the AF PT AFI 10-248, unit commander's must allow at least 1.5 hours of regular duty hours 3 times per week to allow you to PT (AFI 10-248 para 1.13.4).

That being said, If it is too early in the morning for PT for you, then go to bed earlier. I am a night owl so I suffer from the same issue. If it isn't early enough and cuts into your work time, then make the suggestion. If there are other people (not just 3 or 4 out of 20) that have the same issues, it may be something you should take up with your PTL. It all hinges off of your duty requirements and schedules really.

As far as interfering with your personal PT program, it's called flexibility. I workout on my own as well, and if I have to I shift around or change workouts as necessary. It's part of being in the military

As far as the perfect PT goes, the problem with must unit PT sessions is that is EXACTLY what they do and then they wonder why nobody is motivated and/or improves. You WILL NOT improve your run times by just running 1 1/2 miles all the time, or improve your pushups and situps by just doing 50/50 every time. You will see some improvement at first, but eventually you will plateau. You have to diversify workouts and run/train for more than your target (i.e. if you are training for 1.5 miles, run 3 or 4). If you do the same workouts repeatedly, people get bored and lose motivation. Dodgeball, you're right, that is pretty much a joke. We do sports in our unit PT, but in small doses and they are intense (i.e. soccer or ultimate frisbee that you constantly are sprinting). Sports are good for comraderie, and if the right ones are used, it is a good way to hide and make fun a good workout. With the formation runs, have your leadership read the AFI, formation runs are HIGHLY DISCOURAGED because it slows down the faster runners and causes injuries by the folks having to slow down their stride. (AFI 10-248, para 2-4)

Besides, the purpose of the AF PT program is NOT to train you for the AFPT Test, it is to get you Fit to Fight. Most people and units lose sight of that.

The problem has been going on at three different bases now, so it's more than just a local issue.

Going to bed earlier is not the issue, nor is personal preference. As has been pointed out before in these threads, it is a lot easier job wise to be able to slip out the door in the afternoon than it is to rush through a PT program in the morning so I can get to work on time. As for my current squadron's policy of PT in the morning, it's only convenient for 1 person - our commander - so the rest of us have to lump it. And yes, we've brought it up.

I'm pretty flexible in terms of what I can take, but everyone has their limits. Not knowing what we're going to be doing until morning of is unsat to me. Just the other morning our PTL got the bright idea of having a practice test of pushups and situps. Having just done an intense weight session the night prior (on my own time again), I was pretty much spent to begin with. So I stuggled and got questioned by command about my "lacking performance". Granted, all I had to say was the truth, that I had just lifted the night before, and they backed off, but the whole thing could have been avoided had the schedule been issued in advance.

As for group sports, they're OK to be given the option every once in a while. But it should be the exception, not the rule, and people should always be given the option to run instead.

You're right about the plateau, which is why I like running by times instead of distances for a group. Take them out to the track, let 'em go for 1/2 hour, and your faster runners will run further but everyone will get a decent workout in.

Personally, I do a mixture of distance runs and speedwork for my personal workout, increasing overall distance 10% per week. Again, most people who do well on the PT test have to highly supplement the PT program to do so.

[KT3]

I have been a PTL for a couple of years now so I heard most of the complaints about PT. Our PT program at our squadron was a joke anyways. One of the flights I got transferred to, most of the PTLs were voluntolds so didn't have a real motivation to do it. Most of the PT sessions were held in the afternoon and it usually consisted of easy circuit training (which got really boring after a while.) Most of the PTLs would do the samething everyday and not actually participate with PT with the other Airman (usually stood around and talk). That is main reason people were demotivated from doing PT. The head PTL was trying really hard to do things, but she was basically on her own. Within a month of me and few other PTLS transferring to the flight, a few PTLs were 'fired' and the head PTL finally got approved to throw in new requriements for PT. We started holding weekly PTL meetings, and started getting feedback from the other Airman about what they want to see. Starting sending out monthly schedules what each PT session will consist of (for the people who go to the gym.) And I and another Airman ran morning PT sessions throughout the week for people can't make it to the afternoon ones so they won't get in trouble for missing PT. And as you can imagine things got better. Espicially morale. Pretty much, if you want to change PT or want to add alittle bit extra. Become a PTL. :)





I'm not an English major so forgive my misspelling and grammer problems.

[Mateo820506]

The Marine Corps should be in the best shape, not only because your job pretty much demands it but also because of these facts:

The Marine Corps is the youngest, most junior, and least married of the four military Services
• 67% of Marines are 25 or younger
• 25% of Marines are not old enough to legally consume alcohol
• 39% of Marines are LCpl or below (other Services are between 20% - 23%)
• 45% of Marines are married (next closest is Navy at 55%)
• One Officer per 8.49 Marines (next closest is Navy with one Officer per 5.41 Sailors)


Here is another interesting tidbit. Per person Marines consume the most amount of alcohol than any other branch. And we are second only to the Army (because of their size in comparison to ours) for total alcohol consumed per year. We gotta have a hard PT system to keep those beer guts away.

As for PT on your own VS unit PT. I'd always opt for the latter. I have never been injured with my own PT standards. Although injury rate goes up with inexperienced and uncaring amateurs.

[schwag_guest]

I have been a PTL for a couple of years now so I heard most of the complaints about PT. Our PT program at our squadron was a joke anyways. One of the flights I got transferred to, most of the PTLs were voluntolds so didn't have a real motivation to do it. Most of the PT sessions were held in the afternoon and it usually consisted of easy circuit training (which got really boring after a while.) Most of the PTLs would do the samething everyday and not actually participate with PT with the other Airman (usually stood around and talk). That is main reason people were demotivated from doing PT. The head PTL was trying really hard to do things, but she was basically on her own. Within a month of me and few other PTLS transferring to the flight, a few PTLs were 'fired' and the head PTL finally got approved to throw in new requriements for PT. We started holding weekly PTL meetings, and started getting feedback from the other Airman about what they want to see. Starting sending out monthly schedules what each PT session will consist of (for the people who go to the gym.) And I and another Airman ran morning PT sessions throughout the week for people can't make it to the afternoon ones so they won't get in trouble for missing PT. And as you can imagine things got better. Espicially morale. Pretty much, if you want to change PT or want to add alittle bit extra. Become a PTL. :)


I wholeheartedly agree with you on this one. Being a PTL/UFPM myself, I have come across countless complaints. When I was assigned, PT was an afternoon mickey-mouse event, followed by a cooler of beer once a week. When we started back on 3-a-week morning PT sessions, it was nothing but whining and crying. TOO BAD!
PT scores have gone up 20% since then and a lot of it was holding people to a higher standard, along with tougher workouts. While I agree that personal workouts are good as well, it does not motivate you as a unit.
PT is mandatory at least 3 times a week, but that only maintains your current physical fitness situation. We talk about "Excellence in All We Do," and that starts with basic things like PT and staying in shape, regardless of how much complaining goes on.

SUCK IT UP! YOU'RE IN THE MILITARY! IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT WE CAN SHOW YOU THE DOOR!

[THELADYKT]

As for PT on your own VS unit PT. I'd always opt for the latter. I have never been injured with my own PT standards. Although injury rate goes up with inexperienced and uncaring amateurs.

I agree with you here. Many PTLs are voluntolds (and they tend to be the IM or Personnel enlisted folks a lot of places, and junior enlisted at that). Then they get their CPR/Defribulator training, shown how to give the test and sometimes the proper way to tape, and where to find the regs. No training on how to stretch or work out properly. No training on how to prevent injuries. I know when I was a PTL, what I got at my 2 hour "training" session was a joke.

People go with what they are most familiar/comfortable with. If they are runners, you will be doing lots of running only. If they like team stuff, you will see more of that.

[ty5486]

But it's more than that. The PT test is supposed to be an overall measurement of an individual's fitness. While I agree that the system needs some fixing, you have to understand that the reason behind it isn't to make sure that you can run, shoot or whatever. What we do is strenuous (I'm giving the AF the benefit of the doubt here, I work on submarines myself) and they want to make sure that after 48 straight hours working, you won't drop dead. Once again, I agree that the program isn't perfect, but it's a long shot better than the old AFPT test.

[Disturbed]

I agree with this that the AF PT program is not good at all. The one thing that bothers me so much is how we have so many fat people in the Air Force. If they do not have a reason for being this way, (ex. disease or medical issues) than they do not need to be in the military. My husband had to deploy on a two day notice becuase someone from another base couldn't go becuase he was on the WMP. If you can not deploy for that reason than get out becuase you are ruinning the moral of the rest of the Air Force. I think we need to get harder on people and how we PT.

[technomage1]

My husband had to deploy on a two day notice becuase someone from another base couldn't go becuase he was on the WMP. If you can not deploy for that reason than get out becuase you are ruinning the moral of the rest of the Air Force. I think we need to get harder on people and how we PT.

I have never seen anyone get out of a deployment for being on WMP, though I have seen them lose the opportunity to go to PME or school. If they got out of a deployment downrange, and didn't lose a training opportunity, then yes, they should be gone.

[Disturbed]

Well surprise surprise technomasge1 it happens. Both my husband and I are in the military and when he got down range the members supervisor was there with my husband and told him the whole story. To make it short he could not go becuase he was on the WMP. Whatever else was happening to him back home was not included, but it screwed my husband over big time. The Air Force is way to soft on people and it needs to stop. If you can't make it in the Air Force or any branch for that matter than stop wasting our time.

[technomage1]

Well surprise surprise technomasge1 it happens. Both my husband and I are in the military and when he got down range the members supervisor was there with my husband and told him the whole story. To make it short he could not go becuase he was on the WMP. Whatever else was happening to him back home was not included, but it screwed my husband over big time. The Air Force is way to soft on people and it needs to stop. If you can't make it in the Air Force or any branch for that matter than stop wasting our time.

I don't doubt that it happened in your case, but this is plainly in violation of the AFI. I know that doesn't make you or your husband feel any better about it, but the WMP member should have deployed and continued on the WMP downrange. If they couldn't do that, they should be denied reenlistment. That's not just my opinion, that's what the AFI states.

My career field deploys a lot. Aside from barracks theives, the lowest form of humanity are the ones that wiggle their way out of deployment after deployment. I'm not talking about the people who have 1 time, legitimate issues, but the chronic stay at homers.

[DANA6E]

Airmen are steadily getting fatter, and Air Force fitness standards, which were toughened up in 2004, have failed to stop that trend.

According to the Air Force Surgeon General’s Office, 55 percent of airmen are overweight, and almost 12 percent are obese under standards set by the National Institutes of Health.

Only the Navy has a bigger weight problem.

But the Air Force is not doing much to turn things around.

Therefore, Air Force Materiel Command has taken the highly unusual step of setting its own tougher standards.

It is accepted practice that commanders have the right — in fact, the obligation — to ensure the men and women under their command are healthy, can carry out their assigned missions and represent the service well. But some question the fairness of applying a different fitness standard — the body mass index — to airmen in just one command. That question is especially pointed when airmen in that one command face possible punishment for failing to meet those unique standards.

That is a valid concern. Rules that can affect an airman’s continued service in the Air Force should be applied evenly throughout the force.

But that doesn’t make Materiel Command wrong. It’s responding to a leadership void on this issue.

Clearly, the command has the backing of the Air Force Surgeon General’s Office and the service’s public health officials and nutritionists.

And other commands are quietly taking note. Some may well follow suit and install their own tough fitness programs.

But what should really happen here is that the Air Force should institute a servicewide fitness program that has teeth and could actually lead to more fit airmen.

I agree fitness should be taken more seroiusly but BMI is a bad tool it only uses height and weight so 2 people with the same height and weight will have the same bmi but one is in better shape and looks great while the other is out of shape and has a gut

[yankeesr1962]

YOU’RE TOO FAT

In response to “Cutting the Fat,” the word pathetic comes to mind with Air Force Material Commands new initiative. With 55 percent of Airmen overweight and 11 percent obese, leadership should be ashamed. No wonder the other services still refer to the Air Force as the “Chair Force”

The fit to fight program has been in place for 4 years and frankly is a joke. We continue to waste time and money to improve a program that does not work. The time is NOW for change. We need a fit to fight program that truly “has teeth.” We constantly hear from our leaders we are a nation at war. As Airmen, when given more complex and physically demanding jobs, a fit force is a must.

This following statement proves the point why we are a fat force: “To go along with the stick of punitive measures, airman also will be presented carrots in the form of incentives, such as a three-day pass for the airman who has the biggest drop in his BMI.” Why is leadership willing to award individuals for sub-par performance? We will continue to fight the battle of the bulge with bonehead plans like this. Is this the best-laid plan we have to fight this on-going problem? The simple truth is NO! Where is the incentive to pass the fit test? If its incentives you want: Award a 3-day pass for those of us who stay in shape and pass our fit test every year!

We must attack this chronic problem at its source. AIRMEN. We know the rules (or lack there of) and know what it takes to be fit (if they say they don’t they are lying). Leadership continues to ignore the problem by turning a blind eye. The reason they “choose” to not pass their fit tests is simple: they just don’t care and the present program is a comedy of errors. If you want this problem to end, leadership must quit babying our Airman and adhere to strict and forceful rules.

A simple plan to correct this problem is:

A. The fit to fight program MUST be tied to promotion and PME. (We constantly hear we can’t do that, explain to me why and where in the “AFI / rule book” does it state we can’t) If you can’t pass your fit test, you are ineligible for testing to the next grade until you pass. If you have a line number, it is red-lined until you pass. If you are scheduled for PME you are on hold status until you pass.

B. Place the fit test on a four level test to include: Push-ups, Sit-ups, Pull-ups, and 2 mile run. (Yes a 2 mile run) Each level is a go/no go test. If you fail any portion of the test, you fail your fit test.

C Get rid of the point system. The new EPR form contains a go/no go block for fitness. (Where is the incentive for a 100 vs.75? THERE IS NONE!) Place the fit program on a go/no go system. The present program is broken down into age brackets; utilizing this age bracket plan, appoint or assign a certain level of push-ups/sit-ups/pull-ups to each age bracket. (Achieve the level assigned in your age bracket or you fail the test) Increase the run to 2 miles and set a time for the run on a go/no go in each age bracket. (Achieve the time or you fail the test).

D. Get rid of the waist measurement. This measurement doesn’t address different body types. It clearly is skewed and awards max points to those individuals who have a 32 ½ inch or less waist. (a small waist doesn’t mean your fit)

The true stick of punitive disciplinary measures that “has teeth” should be:

First failure = Letter of Reprimand
Second failure = Article 15 (suspended loss of stripe)
Third Failure = Loss of stripe
Forth Failure = Separation (1 year total time)

After each failure, a retest is performed at 90-day intervals with subsequent disciplinary action taken. If after 1 year total time and the individual is still unable to pass the fit test, they are processed for separation. One way or the other you WILL have a fit force. Lastly, take fit testing out of the hands of the PTL’s at the squadron level and have fit testing conducted by the Health and Wellness Center or an independent body. This will help prevent/deter any kind of cheating. Simply passing someone who is your friend who clearly needs fitness boot camp is an ongoing problem and does exist.

By having an in place disciplinary plan, commanders and leadership will have no choice than to follow the rules. As it stands, each squadron/group/wing/numbered air force have their own way of dishing out discipline (or lack there of). Everyone interprets this program differently and this is why we continue to be a fat force.

The proposed program is a pie in the sky approach because leadership is soft and refuses to address the real problem. Placing band-aids on bullet holes won’t get the job done. WAKE UP. If you want a fit force, quit wasting the duty day sitting in a classroom learning to be fit and babying the force. Utilize the duty day, put a fitness boot camp together, 8 hours a day 5 days a week, make these individuals earn their worth! Leaders, the time is NOW, take off the kid gloves and own up to your responsibilities. Do the right thing, quite messing around with the kinder gentler, sitting around the camp fire singing kumbaya force. If this plan was adopted the results will amaze you and “above all”, a real deal fit to fight force.


A concerned NCO

[warr1or]

YOU’RE TOO FAT

Do the right thing, quite messing around with the kinder gentler, sitting around the camp fire singing kumbaya force. If this plan was adopted the results will amaze you and “above all”, a real deal fit to fight force.

A concerned NCO

I liked everything and agree with most of what you said up until the point you used the phrase "Above All."

[technomage1]

Yankeesr1962, while I see where you're coming from, I have some serious questions about where the numbers quoted in the article came from. How many of those "overweight" people were simply classed by BMI and not by a doctor? They could be body builders for all we know. BMI, as with any standardized measure, works well with most of the population but not all of it. I'm not saying that there aren't overweight and obese people in uniform, but I don't think a witch hunt based only on BMI is the answer either. Commanders already have discretion in the PT AFI to order evalution for obviously overweight individuals.

In the past, you used to not be able to attend PME if you failed your weigh in. The only thing this did was encourage people to crash diet. With our mission pace today, some people do not get a chance to work out while deployed. This is simply a fact. How can we, after 4 or 6 or 12 months downrange, prevent them from getting PME or sewing on a stripe simply for failing the test once? As it stands, the individual is step punished for failing, with progressively sterner measures the more failures - just like you describe.

I don't think the PT AFI is perfect by any means, but I don't approve of draconian measures either.

[yankeesr1962]

I had to throw that in there. It was just a fun on words. As for Techno. Lets face facts. The bottom line is the whinning and crying should end. Its not a matter of not being able to workout downrange, its a matter that they won't. Individuals would rather play video games for 10 hours grab 2 hours of sleep and then go into work. I know, I SEE ALL THE TIME. Bottom line.

[Measure Man]

Yeah...I'm all for the standard and all for enforcing it.

Seems like it may be tipping a bit to the over-emphasis now...

Referral EPR...no decoration...can't test for promotion with a referral EPR...can't be promoted...UIFs, etc.

I mean...we have a lot of standards in the AF, this is the only one that gets that kind of attention...guys can fail QA standards...safety standards...CDCs....Job Performance...and they don't get half the attention...in fact, most probably still get firewall 5s.

It's almost getting to the point where doing your job doesn't count anymore...you do it better than anyone else? Doesn't matter...You suck at it? Doesn't matter... as long as you pass your fit test...volunteer for the booster club...and get your CCAF you are golden.

Again, I'm all for fitness standards...but we need to figure a way to make job performance important again.

[technomage1]

Individuals would rather play video games for 10 hours grab 2 hours of sleep and then go into work. I know, I SEE ALL THE TIME. Bottom line.

Where the heck have you deployed that people get 12 hours off? And how can I get there? I bet you had "days off" too. I've heard of those.... :)

Seriously, not everyone gets that luxury. I make it a point to at least grab an hour workout - it helps me relax and it's something I enjoy - but it's usually sqeezed into a pretty packed schedule.

[Shrike]

Yeah...I'm all for the standard and all for enforcing it.

Seems like it may be tipping a bit to the over-emphasis now...

<SNIP>

It's almost getting to the point where doing your job doesn't count anymore...you do it better than anyone else? Doesn't matter...You suck at it? Doesn't matter... as long as you pass your fit test...volunteer for the booster club...and get your CCAF you are golden.

Again, I'm all for fitness standards...but we need to figure a way to make job performance important again.


Agreed; there needs to be a balance, but we're swinging too far towards over-emphasis on PT. This is why I was against PT scores being put on the EPR. There was already a block for that - How well does member comply with standards?

I don't want to be downrange with some moron, ask my boss what the hell the idiot is supposed to be doing, and hear "Well, he's not too bright and doesn't know a whole lot about his job, but you should see that son-of-a-bitch crank out some push-ups!"

(And before someone wants to throw down a "whiner" charge, I have no problem passing the PT test and have never had a problem passing it.)

[yankeesr1962]

If everyone did what they were suppose to, upheld standards and wrote ERP's truthfully, then all would be well, but the fact is, it just doesn't happen. NOCA is a perfect example. You have folks that have passed their test the week prior, but can't run the 1.5 mile test the first day of class. Funny how that is. Bottom line, they should have never been there to begin with, because obviously they had someone "help" them.

[Measure Man]

If everyone did what they were suppose to, upheld standards and wrote ERP's truthfully, then all would be well, but the fact is, it just doesn't happen. NOCA is a perfect example. You have folks that have passed their test the week prior, but can't run the 1.5 mile test the first day of class. Funny how that is. Bottom line, they should have never been there to begin with, because obviously they had someone "help" them.

Rog...though I think we missed an opportunity while coming up with a new EPR form...to change the methodology for the ratings...not saying I have the perfect answer or anything...but the problems with the EPR wasn't that the bullets were on the back and not on the front.

I don't like the new form one bit...while we were changing it, we should have addressed the inflation of the system somehow...the new form improves nothing. In many ways, it is worse than it was....we could have mandated referral reports for fitness on the old form.

[THELADYKT]

The new EPR form is no different than the old EPR form which is really no different than the APRs from back in the 80s/90s. So long as EPRs are tied to promotion and points, there will ALWAYS be inflation.

[The Universal Curmudgeon_guest]

The new EPR form is no different than the old EPR form which is really no different than the APRs from back in the 80s/90s. So long as EPRs are tied to promotion and points, there will ALWAYS be inflation.Of course it is.

If it wasn't then they wouldn't call it the new EPR form.

Remember, some committee composed of (at a minimum) 1 x Lt Gen, 2 x M Gen, and 3 x B Gen with a support staff consisting of (at a minimum) 9 x Col, 18 Lt. Col, 72 astd Maj, Lt, and 2Lt, plus around 144 astd NCOs and Enlisted persons, spent a great deal of taxpayer's money to come up with this "New And Improved" form.

[warr1or]

I don't think there's an easy solution to the PT problem, but Yankeesr1962 hit on some good points as far as repurcussions. Many Airmen only do enough just to barely get by (and there are, of course, NCO's in there as well). While I don't have an AF wide solution, I can tell you what my shop does - for starters, I am in a 2 man shop; myself and a higher ranking NCO. Every hour on the hour we drop and do push-ups and sit-ups. Not a ton of reps but enough to get the heart pumping. During a 10-hour shift, easily a hundred push-ups/hundred sit-ups a day, plus we get an hour three times a week, so every other day add in a two to three mile run, plus extra push-ups and sit-ups, basically working out to total exhasution. We used to do 15 mile bike rides, but now there's all these bike rules that suck (local rules).

The key is that we motivate each other, I understand that for bigger work areas it's harder to motivate large groups of people, but we focus on the benefits of increased survivability in combat, and who can pass up the opprotunity to get PAID to work out? Yes, if the AF wants to pay me to work out, that is totally motivating! I mean, it's required for my job, but how many work places say "go ahead and take an hour to go run on our dime." :)

[Shrike]

Every hour on the hour we drop and do push-ups and sit-ups. Not a ton of reps but enough to get the heart pumping.

Same here, but on a smaller scale - my office does it twice a day. It not only keeps everyone fit so that they can pass the PT test, but it's also a damned fine stress reliever.

[The Universal Curmudgeon_guest]

It not only keeps everyone fit so that they can pass the PT test, but it's also a damned fine stress reliever.A very good point and one frequently overlooked.

And the (pretty rare) opportunity to answer the question "What's going on here?" with "There was a typo on page 47 and no one would admit to being the person who made it." just might be worth it as well.

[THELADYKT]

Same here, but on a smaller scale - my office does it twice a day. It not only keeps everyone fit so that they can pass the PT test, but it's also a damned fine stress reliever.

I think its a fine idea....but I just had a visual of all the people wear blues all the time having to do this. LOL

[ty5486]

I have a question that might be a little off the mark, please forgive my ignorance. In the Air Force, if someone has a note from a doctor saying they can't run, don't they still have to do the other portions of the PT test? Don't they still have to weigh in? I'm in the Navy, working in a joint command and thought this seemed like as good a place as any to learn. Thanks...

[THELADYKT]

The simple answer is yes. If you can't run, they could clear you to do the bike test instead. People with bad knees get this exemption alot so they do the bike instead.

Irregardless, you will still have to do the situps, pushups and waist measurement. Very rarely you will be exempt from all 4 things. Pregnant women and those who've had abdominal surgery will both be completely exempt for a certain time frame (just 2 examples; I'm sure there are others).

For example, I have had 3 wrist surgeries. I was exempt from pushups for a very long time, but still completed the other things. And when I broke my foot, I still had to do the waist measurement part, and this was all I was graded on ( because of the type of break, I could not do situps because I couldn't have my foot bent or held to do them properly and without extreme pain).

So instead of being graded on a 100 point scale, I was graded on a 90 % scale when I was on pushup waiver, and on 30 % scale when I broke my foot.

[technomage1]

I have a question that might be a little off the mark, please forgive my ignorance. In the Air Force, if someone has a note from a doctor saying they can't run, don't they still have to do the other portions of the PT test? Don't they still have to weigh in? I'm in the Navy, working in a joint command and thought this seemed like as good a place as any to learn. Thanks...

You can see the full details at www.af.mil. Check out AFI 10-248, this is the fitness AFI and goes into depth on what the program entails.

[Comm Chief]

BMI is a flawed tool. I was surprised to read in AF Times that Material Command is actually using BMI for punitive measures. Amazing. Analysis points out that people who are lean with muscle, like many athletes, can have the same BMI as someone with high body fat. As far as BMI is concerned, there is no difference between 10 pounds of muscle or 10 pounds of fat. What are our leaders thinking….

[technomage1]

BMI is a flawed tool. I was surprised to read in AF Times that Material Command is actually using BMI for punitive measures. Amazing. Analysis points out that people who are lean with muscle, like many athletes, can have the same BMI as someone with high body fat. As far as BMI is concerned, there is no difference between 10 pounds of muscle or 10 pounds of fat. What are our leaders thinking….

You hit the nail on the head. This is what I was trying to say earlier but you've said it much better. While I don't want obese people in uniform, I don't want a BMI witch hunt either. A bit of sanity needs to be built into the system.

[Comm Chief]

Roger the sanity check. We're moving in the right direction with fitness; hopefully we head off a BMI witch hunt, which in my opinion would be a step backwards. What we should be doing is adjusting for those that are more into strength training, especially when required by the job. If you're not the fastest guy around the track, but can crank out some push-ups, that should count for more than 10 points.

According to BMI standards, about half the NBA and most of the NFL is overweight. Just looking around the Air Force, its obvious we're much trimmer and fit than recent years. If BMI is stating more than 40% of us are overweight, then BMI is wrong.


You hit the nail on the head. This is what I was trying to say earlier but you've said it much better. While I don't want obese people in uniform, I don't want a BMI witch hunt either. A bit of sanity needs to be built into the system.

[Unregistered]

Are you serious? Those are the standards for the Air Force? I'm in the ARMY currently in IRAQ and we still do pt every morning at 0500. We did it back in the rear and we do it here. If you fail the pt test more than once you will be put on the fat boy program and have to do pt, 3 times a day, no joke. I can't believe your standards are so low. This is very odd to me. Maybe the Air Force should take some notes from my unit.

[Comm Chief]

Please don't highjack the thread, the discussion is not about Army versus Air Force PT standards.

[technomage1]

Are you serious? Those are the standards for the Air Force? I'm in the ARMY currently in IRAQ and we still do pt every morning at 0500. We did it back in the rear and we do it here. If you fail the pt test more than once you will be put on the fat boy program and have to do pt, 3 times a day, no joke. I can't believe your standards are so low. This is very odd to me. Maybe the Air Force should take some notes from my unit.

You do realize that our PT test has the pushups and situps timed in 1 minute, not the 2 minutes the Army is allowed, right?

If you truly want to start a discussion about this, please start a new thread.

[THELADYKT]

Just two of the questions I posed when they first started this new PT program. The letters I sent in in thier entirety are attached.

2) The run, push-ups, and sit-ups are all adjusted for age (Yes sit-ups. Let’s start calling them what they really are. Go to any aerobics class. A crunch is your head and shoulders coming off the ground, NOT your back and your arms do not touch your legs. You can practice crunches all you want and it will not help you much with the “Air Force Crunches”.) Why then is the body composition not? Lee Brown, an associate professor of kinesiology at California State University said, “Age absolutely should be taken into account with the standards. Normal standards are both gender- and age-specific.” Our weight management standards are different for age and height, why is this standard different? Do they really expect a 45-year-old man to have the same body composition and size as a 21-year-old man regardless of height?

3) Why did the reps increase for sit-ups and push-ups (for max points) but time decreased? The Navy, Marines, and Army all have two minutes to perform each exercise. . A 25 year old male must do greater than 64 situps for max points. That is MORE than 1 per second. Why are we trying to speed through this? To me, this is encouraging sloppy performance of the exercises and possibly injury Go back to the two-minute standard, please.

[Unregistered]

The inflation in the numbers of airmen cited as "overweight" or "obese" are entirely the byproduct of adopting a set of height and weight charts that are very controversial. The weights listed place most athletes into the overweight and even obese category because they fail to take muscle mass into accout.

There are many factual examples where airmen in excellent fitness are categorized as overweight because of these new tables adopted only a few years ago. They were a source of disagreement within the medical community when adopted in principle but the DoD adopted them as official standards anyway.

Now, due to increasing bureacratic pressures the Air Force promises to kick more people out as a result. This is a continuation of the trend where the Air Force is trying to employ more and more blind measures to automatically kick good men and women out of the services and taking the human judgment of the unit commanders out of the equation.

We are fighting a major war. We need skilled people with experience and proven effectiveness to win this war. But we are increasingly mired in ancillary agendas that clearly do not promote our war-fighting effectiveness. Claims that these many overweight airman are having their job performances adversely influenced are specious. In truth it seems clear the Air Force is more and more on a "kick 'em out" binge. This will soon come back to haunt us in ways we can only dream of.

The truth is we need these people more than they need us. We have a war to win. What I want to know is when does someone of influence finally tell the emperor he is naked and hurting the war effort with needless and unproductive bureacratic rules and administrative processes!

[Unregistered]

As usual everyone seems to be placing the sole blame on the individual, and to a certain extent it's a good place to start. Let's not forget the Air Force is one of the main reasons for everyone being over weight. I've been to the dinning hall, and it's sad to see all the fried food there. The closest thing to healthy eating is a salad bar with maybe ten items on it. We're a do more with less, work harder not smarter Air Force now, don't forget that! We work our people twelve hours a day, five to seven days a week. We're all about doing things as fast as possible, to get the most done. Which includes our meals, there's pretty much nothing healthy about fast food, burger and fries most everymeal just so you can get back to work quicker. No one feels like going to the gym after a 12 to 13 hour shift, some do, most don't. Some have school, or are just trying to be a good spouse or parent, not that the Air Force truly cares about that part of your life. The Air Force is making it your prime responsibility for physical fitness, and education. No matter how many hours you already put in at work, of course that's not the way it's supposed to work, but the Air Force knows that. So do the best you can to take care of yourself, God know's the Air Force won't. Watch how you eat, exercise at least three times a week, drop a note to your congressman and tell him, how your Air Force leadership has lost touch with reality. Most of all pray to God that your spouse doesn't leave you, or turn to someone else, because your at the gym again, or your children end up on youtube beating someone up. The Air Force talks the talk but seldom walks the walk, unless it's to their benefit.

[DeathB4]

The fitness test in the Air Force is the same in comparison to the other branches. The Air Force standards are actually higher than the Army. The Army gives you 2 mins to do the same minimum as the Air force in push-ups and sit-ups, also you get 61mins to run 2 miles. The standards are not the problem, the culture is the problem. The younger airman have no problem with it, but changing the seniors attitude is the issue.





QUOTE=Dereksurfing;86642]Burn Out Push Ups In one minute
Burn Out Sit Ups in one minute
Waste size
1 1/2 mile run

Why is this a test of fitness?

I am a former smoker and after 2 years of being on profile because of a stroke I took the PT test and score an 89. I was in the worst shape of my entire life and wouldn't have lasted even one day in the combat zone. However, the Air Force says I'm good to go. BTW, i quit smoking.

I think the PT program is lacking in a big way.

What do you think?[/QUOTE]

[Unregistered]

The PT programs major fault is that is doesnt count....yes that is correct it doesnt count!

Its not that the PT test is too easy, its that there is no incentive to excell at the program.

Once on active duty, all that matters is that you pass. There is no incentive to do more than pass. Why bust a sweat if you can easily make the min score?

In all of the Pre-commisioning programs, the PT score is competitive and carries weight. It is used for STRATIFICATION.

There needs to be a reward for doing well to motivate troops to take the PT program seriously.

The negative reinforcement currenty in place is just not getting the job done. Although, it forces the borderline guys to work a little extra, it does not motivate others to excell and strive to max the program out!

It counted before I was commissioned, why not now?

[US Army 19 year veteran]

First.....YES the USAF needs a new program for fitness, they never really had one in the first place.
Second....Unit PT should be the norm, at the least you are ensuring they do PT once a day and even the slackers do PT. Those who feel hindered running slower, quit whining and do some more PT on your own.
Third...It has always been my experience even as a recruiter the USAF is easier and they don't work that hard, well it's obvious because I don't see articles proclaiming that the US Army or the Marines are over 50% of their force overweight......it's a sad fact that the USAF has this problem, what is even sadder is some freakin beauerocrat on the USAF board will overide a more stringent standard and let it stay the way it is or preach hey this is not the Army or the Marines, and you will still have your obesity problems, it come down to one simple yet overused term by most forces except the USAF, one simple word,,,,,,,,,DISCIPLINE! the USAF has never had it and cannot expect to ficx their problems without it. DISCIPLINE within your ranks will fix this problem and it starts with the NCO's who have to lead by example and take those young airmen and get them into shape. To lead from the front, you have to be there and BE the example, not the one handin out the damn donuts.

[THELADYKT]

Second....Unit PT should be the norm, at the least you are ensuring they do PT once a day and even the slackers do PT. Those who feel hindered running slower, quit whining and do some more PT on your own.


It should be done more, I'll give you that. But until ALL commanders make it a priority to give everyone the time to do this, it will not change. This had to start at the top first. The blame needs to start at the top.



The PT programs major fault is that is doesnt count....yes that is correct it doesnt count!

Its not that the PT test is too easy, its that there is no incentive to excell at the program.

Once on active duty, all that matters is that you pass. There is no incentive to do more than pass. Why bust a sweat if you can easily make the min score?

In all of the Pre-commisioning programs, the PT score is competitive and carries weight. It is used for STRATIFICATION.

There needs to be a reward for doing well to motivate troops to take the PT program seriously.

It counted before I was commissioned, why not now?

Until commanders give ALL airmen EQUAL TIME to do this, this will not change. It's great if you have a 730-1630 job, and your commander shuts down your shop 3 days a week to let everyone PT in addition to their lunch times. However, there are way too many people who do not get these benefits. They are working 12hour (or more) shifts, nights, swings, weekends, holidays. They are lucky to get a chow break, let alone duty time to PT (Cops, Firemen, aircraft maint (at many locations), inpatient hospital workers, PJs, etc.)

And after working a 12+ hour shift, you are supposed to get 8 hours sleep. Now add in travel time to and from work (and no there is not enough base housing for everyone), eating, showering, uniform maintenace, etc. Not to mention that if you are on your feet for 12+ hours like nurses (for example), you are exhausted at the end of the day. Working out is not usually an option.

Until the system is more fair (will never be completely fair to all), then it should be simply pass/fail.

[Unregistered]

The AF should do what the Army does for motivation… do 10 push-ups beyond the max and have E-7 handed to you. Do 20 beyond the max and get E-8! HOOAH! That must be how soldiers with 10-12 years TIS make those grades. It certainly isn’t competency in their jobs!

[Unregistered]

The AF should do what the Army does for motivation… do 10 push-ups beyond the max and have E-7 handed to you. Do 20 beyond the max and get E-8! HOOAH! That must be how soldiers with 10-12 years TIS make those grades. It certainly isn’t competency in their jobs!

This must be coming from the poor shmuck passed over and just picking up a paycheck not giving one ounce of a shit about the soldiers or leading from example

[Dogmech]

I've been retired from the Air Force for 8 years now,and I still make the attempt to stay in very good physical condition. I was recently on base at Macdill and went into clothing sales. While paying for my merchandise, the cashier pointed out that she thought it a little hypocritical that clothing sales just underwent renovations that reduced their floor space, for of all things, a Dunkin Donuts. Your new article, "Cutting the Fat" struck a nerve with her. Why not with the base commander? Never mind the business aspect of DD.Are donuts no longer called fatpills, or now called big multi-vitamins?

[Unregistered]

The air force has been struggling with its physical fitness image for decades and still can't seem to find the way. I remember when we used to run a mile and a half once per year and that was the only test, unless you wanted to walk 3 miles. Walking 3 miles in the alloted time wasn't as easy as it sounds but it probably saved many from stressing the heart for those who didn't feel like dying of a heart attack that day. A few people a year would die from heart attacks due to this annual requirement. I knew 2 of them personally. When they started the 'fat' measurements' you typically had some bone head in an orderly room doing measurements on people to determine their level of body fat. Many good careers were ruined from this misguided way of 'measuring fitness'. i think the service has to be able to answer the question "how fit do we need people to be for various air force jobs? and then come up with a common, non-life threatening test for all. Those who have consistently physically demanding jobs will always excell at those things anyway regardless of requirements so why not have a mediocre, non stressful test for all? How about something like keeping the weight limits and making everyone run 3/4 mile every month? Ease up on the time limits for the run, everyone isn't a track star. Shouldn't a mediocre test like this provide a reasonable assurance of physical fitness for a force that is largely not out humping with a fifty pound pack every day?

[PUALLOFF]

The PT programs major fault is that is doesnt count....yes that is correct it doesnt count!

Its not that the PT test is too easy, its that there is no incentive to excell at the program.

Once on active duty, all that matters is that you pass. There is no incentive to do more than pass. Why bust a sweat if you can easily make the min score?

In all of the Pre-commisioning programs, the PT score is competitive and carries weight. It is used for STRATIFICATION.

There needs to be a reward for doing well to motivate troops to take the PT program seriously.

The negative reinforcement currenty in place is just not getting the job done. Although, it forces the borderline guys to work a little extra, it does not motivate others to excell and strive to max the program out!

It counted before I was commissioned, why not now?

That's fine, but then I want a mental fitness test so I can max out my points there....oh that's not fair you say?...sure it is just like you suggest for the physical test.

[Unregistered]

That's fine, but then I want a mental fitness test so I can max out my points there....oh that's not fair you say?...sure it is just like you suggest for the physical test.


Bring it, its all 5 categories that got me ahead before I commsioned

GPA
CC Ranking
AFOQT Score
1.5 Mile Run
PT Test

Superior performance in all 5 categories = Pilot
Superior perfomance for mental fintess (only 2 categories for that) = Non-rated support officer

[Unregistered]

Bring it, its all 5 categories that got me ahead before I commsioned

GPA
CC Ranking
AFOQT Score
1.5 Mile Run
PT Test

Superior performance in all 5 categories = Pilot
Superior perfomance for mental fintess (only 2 categories for that) = Non-rated support officer

Pulloff must hate it when he is duked by a guy who cant spell but can run like the dickens....

coudn't resist

[Unregistered]

Sometimes I think AF leadship loses sight of it's mission. Instead of getting lost in social engineering, they need to look at the big picture and ask one question. "Are we getting bombs on target on time?"
A SNCO

[The Universal Curmudgeon_guest]

Sometimes I think AF leadship loses sight of it's mission. Instead of getting lost in social engineering, they need to look at the big picture and ask one question. "Are we getting bombs on target on time?"
A SNCOOooooohhhh! That's a nasty question to be asking. (Especially if you include the word "right" in it.)

However, mostly the USAF does do just that.

[Measure Man]

The PT programs major fault is that is doesnt count....yes that is correct it doesnt count!

Its not that the PT test is too easy, its that there is no incentive to excell at the program.

Once on active duty, all that matters is that you pass. There is no incentive to do more than pass. Why bust a sweat if you can easily make the min score?

In all of the Pre-commisioning programs, the PT score is competitive and carries weight. It is used for STRATIFICATION.

There needs to be a reward for doing well to motivate troops to take the PT program seriously.

The negative reinforcement currenty in place is just not getting the job done. Although, it forces the borderline guys to work a little extra, it does not motivate others to excell and strive to max the program out!

It counted before I was commissioned, why not now?

The test is intentionally not that competitive to excel.

The AF wanted to avoid older SNCOs getting heart attacks trying to stretch their 92 into a 95...to look better for the SMSgt board. That's why scores are prohibited from the EPR.

[Measure Man]

First.....YES the USAF needs a new program for fitness, they never really had one in the first place.
Second....Unit PT should be the norm, at the least you are ensuring they do PT once a day and even the slackers do PT. Those who feel hindered running slower, quit whining and do some more PT on your own.
Third...It has always been my experience even as a recruiter the USAF is easier and they don't work that hard, well it's obvious because I don't see articles proclaiming that the US Army or the Marines are over 50% of their force overweight......it's a sad fact that the USAF has this problem, what is even sadder is some freakin beauerocrat on the USAF board will overide a more stringent standard and let it stay the way it is or preach hey this is not the Army or the Marines, and you will still have your obesity problems, it come down to one simple yet overused term by most forces except the USAF, one simple word,,,,,,,,,DISCIPLINE! the USAF has never had it and cannot expect to ficx their problems without it. DISCIPLINE within your ranks will fix this problem and it starts with the NCO's who have to lead by example and take those young airmen and get them into shape. To lead from the front, you have to be there and BE the example, not the one handin out the damn donuts.

You're not really holding up Army discipline as a model to follow are you?

Let's talk about real discipline issues like:

Drugs,
Domestic violence
Desertion
Violent Crime
Sexual Assault
Insubordination

Lemme know when you have your facts together....and we can compare Army discipline to the AF.

[Shrike]

Sometimes I think AF leadship loses sight of it's mission. Instead of getting lost in social engineering, they need to look at the big picture and ask one question. "Are we getting bombs on target on time?"
A SNCO

You've obviously lost sight of the primary function of senior AF Leadership - changing the uniform every few years in order to cement a legacy.

;)

[Amn Snuffy]

Are you kidding me?

I realize that this is a message board and we all have freedom of speech and all that noise. But you have got to be kidding me...all of this inter-service rivalry and hatred is a little bit extreme, don't you think?

We all have our quirks, whether we're soldiers, sailors, marines, or airmen. And when it comes down to it- we're all ON THE SAME FREAKIN' TEAM! We're all here to protect our country, protect our wingman, and kill our enemies and break their sh**.

So let's get back to doing the mission- I know quite a few airmen who are in far better shape than they look, and I know a lot of airmen who "look" like they're in shape (29 in. waist, tall, toned) who can't do push ups or run farther than a mile.

They'll get weeded out eventually, and if we were upholding our core values- then we would all be striving for "excellent" on our PT tests. Excellence in all we do, right guys?

So if you're a Marine, Sailor, or Soldier- then okay, keep thinking you're oh so much better than your "sisters" in the Air Force. But you know what? We'll still be there to bail you out when you need us to.

Air Power.

[Unregistered]

Bring it, its all 5 categories that got me ahead before I commsioned

GPA
CC Ranking
AFOQT Score
1.5 Mile Run
PT Test

Superior performance in all 5 categories = Pilot
Superior perfomance for mental fintess (only 2 categories for that) = Non-rated support officer

Aren't we an arrogant ass!...must be a pilot

[Joe]

I think the Air Force should do away with the waist measurement, not everyone will ever be a size 32 waist. As for P/T not everyone is afforded the time off from their daily duties to go to the gym during duty hours. I'm in aircraft maintenance and my duty days are usually 10 hours pretty much non-stop. Add to that going to school and taking care of a family and work out time if any is pretty slim. I know their are others out there that are in the same boat. So if we cannot break away from work to go and work out for 1.5 hours 3 times a week, I don't think we should be penalized. After all some of this is due to the AF downsizing and doing more with less.

[Unregistered]

Bring it, its all 5 categories that got me ahead before I commsioned

GPA
CC Ranking
AFOQT Score
1.5 Mile Run
PT Test

Superior performance in all 5 categories = Pilot
Superior perfomance for mental fintess (only 2 categories for that) = Non-rated support officer

CC Ranking= How far you could fit your head up the boss' 6.

Believe me when I say that guys I came up with that had a high CC ranking ended up washing out of UPT because IPs are immune to that type of bullsh!t.

Do us all a favor and shut your mouth!

Sincerely,
The Non-Rated Support Officer Who Is Currently Training To Save Your @ss When You Punch Out Over Hostile Territory.

[Comm Chief]

You are right, and I tried to avoid this but what the hell. Comparison at my age (45) and current waist measurement to get min passing score:

AF: 40 pushups, 35 situps, 14:20 1.5-mile run
Army: 30 pushups, 32 situps, 18 min 2-mile run

No significant difference.


You do realize that our PT test has the pushups and situps timed in 1 minute, not the 2 minutes the Army is allowed, right?

If you truly want to start a discussion about this, please start a new thread.

[tryn2makit2]

We can fix this, we just need to be open to change.

#1 Eliminate smoking during duty hours

#2 Approach drinking as though it's a normal part of life (in moderation) and eliminate the binging. Encourage alcohol intake during meals. It aides digestion.

#3 Modify chow hall hours. It should be open all day encouraging more, smaller meals.

#4 Modify chow hall menus. It should be the venue of choice for on-base dining, not a last resort. There should be a swagger among it's workers knowing they're providing the best product not only on base, but in the entire area. This is achievable.

#5 Get more hands-on with exercise programs. A 1 to 50 PTL ratio isn't going to cut it if we want to modify someone's lifestyle. We need one on one counseling on fitness, diet, and lifestyle. Right now it's more like we're just checking a box for HLW and BCIP.

#6 Intramural sports programs are dying. They've lost commander support and what used to be thriving sports programs are slowly going away. These sports encourage individual fitness improvement and healthier lifestyles. They need to be actively encouraged and supported at the highest levels.

#7 Increase squadron sportsdays/warrior days to occur at least monthly or quarterly. This will inspire individuals to stay sharp and individually fit.

[Unregistered]

yeah what he said

[Unregistered]

Unfortunately, the AF PT test is not a good "test" of individual fitness. I don't smoke, I don't drink, I workout on a regular basis, I try to eat pretty darn healthy, I weigh in well below "obesity standards", can max out my waist measurements, push-ups and sit-ups, but fail because I am a slow runner. It doesn't matter that I can run for hours (much longer and further than most of my peers), but I do it very slowly...so the AF says I am not physically fit. That doesn't make sense to me, but every year I stress out about whether I am going to be forced to attend the completely demoralizing "fat girl/boy program" courses where mental health, HAWC, etc. personnel talk down to me like I am a complete loser while the chain-smoker who eats Little Debbie's all day, is 40lbs overweight and never makes it to unit pt, passes with flying colors because he just happens to be able to run. Every body is not made the same and we don't all fit into the same "mold". I have deployed numerous times and have never had a need to run 1.5 miles in 10 mins, but I have needed to walk/work at a consistent pace for hours on end. So you tell me, who would you rather have working side-by-side with you on a daily basis...someone who can work really fast for a few minutes and then needs a break or someone who can work consistently for an extended period of time?? I know I would rather have the person who can pull his/her load for an extended period of time!

Regardless, I agree that we need to reconfigure the PT test...we just need to think long and hard about what actually want to achieve.

[Matai]

I know I said it in an earlier post, but I think it warrants being brought up again. Why is it we have 1 standard for joining the AF, but then no longer need to maintain that same standard when we get in? I don't think that has "excellence in all we do" stamped on it.

Any way...

I have a suggestion that would make people more inclined to do PT. What if we grant points for promotion to those who do well?? For example. When Airmen get a medal they are worth a certain amount of points when it comes to calculating for their promotion and testing cycle.

Why don't we do the same for PT?
100% = 5 points
95 to 99 = 4 points
90 to 94 = 3 points
85 to 89 = 2 points
80 to 84 = 1 point
75 to 79 = pass (you don't get booted out)
<75 = get help

That way PT becomes important. It has incentive to do well and to maintain. As it stands now there is no reason to do well in PT. Hell, I don't even get COMP days for scoring high. I get a congratulations from my commander. Which is fine if that what they want to do. I PT cause I enjoy running. Not everyone does. There really should be a reason to do well. Right now in my squadron, if you do well you run more than everyone else. WOW, talk about stupid. So, if I do better I get punished and have to do more. Where is the motivation to do well there? Those who are slower don't wan't to run faster because if they do, they have to run even more.

[Unregistered]

Easiest way to fix the pt test is to get rid of the BMI scale and drastically drop the amount of points for the waist measurement. BMI is not a good indicator of anything. It fails to take into account your actual fitness and focuses mearly on your height and weight. So Joe Bagodonuts is 6ft and weighs 220, with three chins, and he has the same BMI as a guy 6ft 220 with 4% body fat. Yet both are overweight? Crazy. Then, with the waist measurement. My last test, i ran faster and did more push-ups and sit-ups, then three people in our group, yet i barely picked up a 76 and they sailed through with 85-88 points because their waist was smaller, and they were younger than me. What gives there? Isn't it "physical" fitness and not body structure?

[THELADYKT]

I know I said it in an earlier post, but I think it warrants being brought up again. Why is it we have 1 standard for joining the AF, but then no longer need to maintain that same standard when we get in? I don't think that has "excellence in all we do" stamped on it.

Any way...

I have a suggestion that would make people more inclined to do PT. What if we grant points for promotion to those who do well?? For example. When Airmen get a medal they are worth a certain amount of points when it comes to calculating for their promotion and testing cycle.

Why don't we do the same for PT?
100% = 5 points
95 to 99 = 4 points
90 to 94 = 3 points
85 to 89 = 2 points
80 to 84 = 1 point
75 to 79 = pass (you don't get booted out)
<75 = get help

That way PT becomes important. It has incentive to do well and to maintain. As it stands now there is no reason to do well in PT. Hell, I don't even get COMP days for scoring high. I get a congratulations from my commander. Which is fine if that what they want to do. I PT cause I enjoy running. Not everyone does. There really should be a reason to do well. Right now in my squadron, if you do well you run more than everyone else. WOW, talk about stupid. So, if I do better I get punished and have to do more. Where is the motivation to do well there? Those who are slower don't wan't to run faster because if they do, they have to run even more.

My problem with it is that the entire program is not administered fairly across the entire AF. With WAPS, you are tested against only people in your career field. Therefore, for the most part, you all have the same environmental conditions to deal with. Same crappy hours or deployments. You are equal when it comes to testing.

But is NOT that way with the PT program. I brought this up earlier as well and I think it applies to your question/suggestion. Until ALL commanders give ALL airmen EQUAL TIME to do this, the system will NOT be fair to all and neither would the point system you propose. It's great if you have a 730-1630 job, and your commander shuts down your shop 3 days a week to let everyone PT in addition to their lunch times. However, there are way too many people who do not get these benefits. They are working 12hour (or more) shifts, nights, swings, weekends, holidays. They are lucky to get a chow break, let alone duty time to PT (Cops, Firemen, aircraft maint (at many locations), inpatient hospital workers, PJs, etc.)

And after working a 12+ hour shift, you are supposed to get 8 hours sleep. Now add in travel time to and from work (and no there is not enough base housing for everyone), eating, showering, uniform maintenace, etc. Not to mention that if you are on your feet for 12+ hours like nurses (for example), you are exhausted at the end of the day. Working out is not usually an option.

Until the system is more fair (will never be completely fair to all), then it should be simply pass/fail.

[Unregistered]

First.....YES the USAF needs a new program for fitness, they never really had one in the first place.
Second....Unit PT should be the norm, at the least you are ensuring they do PT once a day and even the slackers do PT. Those who feel hindered running slower, quit whining and do some more PT on your own.
Third...It has always been my experience even as a recruiter the USAF is easier and they don't work that hard, well it's obvious because I don't see articles proclaiming that the US Army or the Marines are over 50% of their force overweight......it's a sad fact that the USAF has this problem, what is even sadder is some freakin beauerocrat on the USAF board will overide a more stringent standard and let it stay the way it is or preach hey this is not the Army or the Marines, and you will still have your obesity problems, it come down to one simple yet overused term by most forces except the USAF, one simple word,,,,,,,,,DISCIPLINE! the USAF has never had it and cannot expect to ficx their problems without it. DISCIPLINE within your ranks will fix this problem and it starts with the NCO's who have to lead by example and take those young airmen and get them into shape. To lead from the front, you have to be there and BE the example, not the one handin out the damn donuts.


1) If we're going to talk about "discipline", then let's discuss the Army troops I worked with in the desert who put loaded 9mm pistols IN THEIR PANTS, handed out / cut corners when issuing base passes to locals that the Colonel's local national coordinator simply said were clear, and left hundreds of rifle rounds lying around when they left. I know I haven't seen all Army personnel, and I'm pretty sure you haven't seen all Air Force personnel, so let's not apply our experiences with certain portions of each other's service to the service as a whole. (BTW: it's "Bureaucrat", "Override", "Fix" and "Handin' [or] Handing").

2) I agree we should PT more. Personally, I'd like to see the regs changed so that there are 3 days of unit PT plus 2 more where the member can do what they need to. Why am I "whining" about getting a chance for individual PT? Because I work 12+ hour days, 5 days a week, plus commuting time, haven't had a weekend where I didn't need to go to the office in months, am currently working on my (required) Masters degree, am required to attend any social/formal function that smells like my unit may be involved, and must volunteer because the AF demands a "well-rounded" individual. I'm lucky if I don't fall asleep with my boots still on. When I was given the opportunity to have two sessions on my own, I cut my run time by over 3 minutes because I was able to do what I needed to do.

3) Why don't the Army and Marines have such reports? It's because the AF is looking for reasons to cut people ever since congress told them they had to, meanwhile the Army and Marines can't afford to kick someone out for not meeting BMI standards or to spend time hunting violators down because they have more important things to worry about. An "overweight" body who can still do the job is better than being undermanned but all within a tidy little guideline (BTW: I'm 6'2", with a 36" waist and 15% body fat. Not only am I still considered "Overweight", but I'm within 5 pounds of being "Obese" according to BMI charts.)

One of the risks we are taking now is that members are only given increased opportunities for PT if they are in trouble. That's right, I got my extra opportunities for individual PT because failed a test by 0.6 points when the temperature dropped to below 20 degrees farenheit during my test. Yet, even though I only missed it by a little bit amd all I needed was a chance to run without my lungs turning into ice, I had to go through the same program as people who couldn't do a single push-up, sit-up, or run a single lap. What we are doing is telling people who already have a tough time with fitness that they are bad airmen and must go do more. That makes PT a punitive measure by singling out troubled airmen and making them work harder. What we should be doing is requiring a greater effort / more participation from everyone. Unit PT can do this because everyone is required to be doing the same program together, and the more fit individuals tend to encourage / pull / drag the less fit individuals into a position where their fitness improves. It's a team effort where everyone is working out, not just the "bad" airmen.

I also think there needs to be an in-depth review process before we separate individuals based on the fitness test / weight standards. Having a basic requirement for fitness is good, but it's just that- basic. The test, for instance...we shoudl all be required to pass it; but berfore we start ranking / separating indivuals, we need to look at the situation. I'm not the fastest runner, and neither was one of my best NCOs in the desert, but when we had a rowdy subject we were trying to control (I'm an Air Force Security Forces Officer), we were the ones with the brute strength to constrain him when others could not. No matter how much technology they come up with, I can't see my airmen ever gaining the ability to "Put the beligerent drunk (who, by the way, is taller and heavier than you) on his face...by wire...". At pre-deployment training, when we were loaded down with our battle rattle, to include weapons, ammo, body armor, water, helmets, etc, and we had to slog through the mud, I was outpacing the young airmen, most of whom were probably excellent examples of the thin, fast-running, troops the PT test favors. My ability to move tactically, carry a loaded stretcher, or drag a grown man out of harms way, wasn't impeded by my inability to run the 1.5 in 9 minutes or to have a 32" waist.

So yes, I do think we could use a more expansive fitness program, I just dont' think we shoudl use it to keep in incompetent beanpoles while separating stocky / heavyset individuals who can actually get the job done.

[Unregistered]

1) If we're going to talk about "discipline", then let's discuss the Army troops I worked with in the desert who put loaded 9mm pistols IN THEIR PANTS, handed out / cut corners when issuing base passes to locals that the Colonel's local national coordinator simply said were clear, and left hundreds of rifle rounds lying around when they left. I know I haven't seen all Army personnel, and I'm pretty sure you haven't seen all Air Force personnel, so let's not apply our experiences with certain portions of each other's service to the service as a whole. (BTW: it's "Bureaucrat", "Override", "Fix" and "Handin' [or] Handing").

2) I agree we should PT more. Personally, I'd like to see the regs changed so that there are 3 days of unit PT plus 2 more where the member can do what they need to. Why am I "whining" about getting a chance for individual PT? Because I work 12+ hour days, 5 days a week, plus commuting time, haven't had a weekend where I didn't need to go to the office in months, am currently working on my (required) Masters degree, am required to attend any social/formal function that smells like my unit may be involved, and must volunteer because the AF demands a "well-rounded" individual. I'm lucky if I don't fall asleep with my boots still on. When I was given the opportunity to have two sessions on my own, I cut my run time by over 3 minutes because I was able to do what I needed to do.

3) Why don't the Army and Marines have such reports? It's because the AF is looking for reasons to cut people ever since congress told them they had to, meanwhile the Army and Marines can't afford to kick someone out for not meeting BMI standards or to spend time hunting violators down because they have more important things to worry about. An "overweight" body who can still do the job is better than being undermanned but all within a tidy little guideline (BTW: I'm 6'2", with a 36" waist and 15% body fat. Not only am I still considered "Overweight", but I'm within 5 pounds of being "Obese" according to BMI charts.)

One of the risks we are taking now is that members are only given increased opportunities for PT if they are in trouble. That's right, I got my extra opportunities for individual PT because failed a test by 0.6 points when the temperature dropped to below 20 degrees farenheit during my test. Yet, even though I only missed it by a little bit amd all I needed was a chance to run without my lungs turning into ice, I had to go through the same program as people who couldn't do a single push-up, sit-up, or run a single lap. What we are doing is telling people who already have a tough time with fitness that they are bad airmen and must go do more. That makes PT a punitive measure by singling out troubled airmen and making them work harder. What we should be doing is requiring a greater effort / more participation from everyone. Unit PT can do this because everyone is required to be doing the same program together, and the more fit individuals tend to encourage / pull / drag the less fit individuals into a position where their fitness improves. It's a team effort where everyone is working out, not just the "bad" airmen.

I also think there needs to be an in-depth review process before we separate individuals based on the fitness test / weight standards. Having a basic requirement for fitness is good, but it's just that- basic. The test, for instance...we shoudl all be required to pass it; but berfore we start ranking / separating indivuals, we need to look at the situation. I'm not the fastest runner, and neither was one of my best NCOs in the desert, but when we had a rowdy subject we were trying to control (I'm an Air Force Security Forces Officer), we were the ones with the brute strength to constrain him when others could not. No matter how much technology they come up with, I can't see my airmen ever gaining the ability to "Put the beligerent drunk (who, by the way, is taller and heavier than you) on his face...by wire...". At pre-deployment training, when we were loaded down with our battle rattle, to include weapons, ammo, body armor, water, helmets, etc, and we had to slog through the mud, I was outpacing the young airmen, most of whom were probably excellent examples of the thin, fast-running, troops the PT test favors. My ability to move tactically, carry a loaded stretcher, or drag a grown man out of harms way, wasn't impeded by my inability to run the 1.5 in 9 minutes or to have a 32" waist.

So yes, I do think we could use a more expansive fitness program, I just dont' think we shoudl use it to keep in incompetent beanpoles while separating stocky / heavyset individuals who can actually get the job done.

Amen to that.

I wish you were my supervisor. You rock.

[KOTULCN]

I like many other people also believe the Fitness program needs to be revamped. I recently PCS''d to an AETC base from USAFE and soon realized the mission took a back seat to Fitness. I failed my PT test as I really wasnt in the shape to run in Phoenix in the middle of summer coming from Germany and I recieved an LOR. I had never seen such Commander involvement, our CC was out in force M-W-F at 0600 for about 45 minutes you were using "the bands" or doing last man up. Yeah I shed a few pounds and quit smoking but it took a toll on my body, there was no time to stretch unless you showed up early, which is hard to do when you are already pulling consistant 12 hour shifts and there deffinately was ZERO time after working out to shower let alone stretch as the sorties dont wait for you. I injured my neck doing these rediculous "surges" as our CC called them and I was forced to take an ergo test because my doctor put me on a profile. Well I was in the green for the entire test put my BMI was too high and failed my second test, I recieved the second LOR in my career and was placed on a control roster/UIF and lost my line number for E-5. Well then the HAWC though hey why dont we let this guy do the 3 mile walk, I passed with a 79.6 and then I was hit up for a random PT test 4 months later which I passed with a 79.8. I had legitiment medical issues and passed a test the AF deemed acceptable, but my CC decided that that wasnt enough and denied my request to give me my line number back. My whole problem is the system is broken, there are many E-7/E-8/E-9's (we wont even get into the Officers)who cant pass thier PT test when held to the same standard that the junior ranks are and thats a shame. I have several friends in the Marines that laugh when I tell them what our PT sessions consist of, and to the poster further up in the thread, we were all in better shape during BMT mostly because we ran together much like the Army does, we were also restricted on certain food items and stress also played a large role. I will admit that since I left AETC and came back to PACAF that there is a huge difference in the obesity levels there and here, mostly because the Mission comes first here.

[technomage1]

My whole problem is the system is broken, there are many E-7/E-8/E-9's (we wont even get into the Officers)who cant pass thier PT test when held to the same standard that the junior ranks are and thats a shame.

Yeah, I have to admit most of the obese folks I see in uniform are E7 and above. Note that I said "obese" and not just "overweight". I've seen junior troops that could stand to lose a few pounds, but the really fat ones are usually the higher ranking. And you're right, if a squadron is burning junior enlisted on weight issues the same standard needs to be applied to senior.

Having said that, my last base our shirt was obese. Man could run like the wind, though, so he passed the test. Eventually, our commander counseled him to drop the poundage - and, to his credit, he acknowledged his problem and lost the weight.

[Unregistered]

The AF PT program is a joke! Being at an AETC base -- its even a bigger joke!! What we need, at a minimum, is a return to the semi-annual weight checks but we have decimated the CSS's so that will be hard to do. But, when we had folks weight in twice a year and randomly on a monthly basis, they had a "target" to work on! Now, its up to our overworked commanders to instill a fitness program around an AF that is too lean (manpower & funding) to meet mission requirements! Come on corporate AF -- wake up and smell the coffee!

In any case, immediately return to having random monthly weigh-ins and semi-annual checks to give our commanders a "pulse" on the fitness of their personnel. Is it the best? No! But its better than an annual PT test that's too late to help folks (read: "redirect/refocus") them on fitness!

[MACHINE666]

The AF PT program is a joke! Being at an AETC base -- its even a bigger joke!! What we need, at a minimum, is a return to the semi-annual weight checks but we have decimated the CSS's so that will be hard to do. But, when we had folks weight in twice a year and randomly on a monthly basis, they had a "target" to work on! Now, its up to our overworked commanders to instill a fitness program around an AF that is too lean (manpower & funding) to meet mission requirements! Come on corporate AF -- wake up and smell the coffee!

In any case, immediately return to having random monthly weigh-ins and semi-annual checks to give our commanders a "pulse" on the fitness of their personnel. Is it the best? No! But its better than an annual PT test that's too late to help folks (read: "redirect/refocus") them on fitness!

Oh misguided individual, you know so little about the AFI 10-248 known officially as Fitness Program. I suggest you read it before spout off so blindly. Commanders have the option to administer unit fitness as they deem necessary, as found in the first chapter. The part where it says "Lead the unit fitness program" pretty much leaves it open to interpretation. If they want to implement diagnostic testing on their folks every 90 days or within a certain time frame of when their annual test comes due, it is within their full capacity to do so. My commander did this to us when I was stationed in Korea, circa 2004 time-frame. Plus, periodically they can check with the HAWC as to assess how well people are complying with fitness or if an overhaul does in fact need to be done. Besides people who end up failing the PT test are required to do mandatory fitness with a PTL per the AFI. At one point I was on the Fat Boy Program and hated every minute of it - since then it has convinced me the importance of making an effort to watch what I eat and to exercise regularly and as a result I have been a PTL for my unit for quite some time.

I don't know how things go at AETC bases (Ain't Even Thinking Combat, I know) but step over to PACAF or come over here to Ramstein and you'll be hard-pressed with your daily schedule and additional duties to say we're too laxed and need more fitness. Give the commanders the credit they deserve to run things as they see fit. If you're that fed up with being teased or that insecure take the initiative and become a body builder, or join the Marines or the Army. They have their share of hefty folks too, no doubt :p

[Comm Chief]

In 3 assignments since we started the program, I've had very few SNCOs fail the PT test and when they did the same standards applied. Any promotable SNCO knows they have to lead from the front and CANNOT fail a PT test.

But yeah, I get it. The over-40 age break allows us to carry a few more pounds. Overall, in my experience, the biggest problem as been with the junior NCO ranks.


Yeah, I have to admit most of the obese folks I see in uniform are E7 and above. Note that I said "obese" and not just "overweight". I've seen junior troops that could stand to lose a few pounds, but the really fat ones are usually the higher ranking. And you're right, if a squadron is burning junior enlisted on weight issues the same standard needs to be applied to senior.

Having said that, my last base our shirt was obese. Man could run like the wind, though, so he passed the test. Eventually, our commander counseled him to drop the poundage - and, to his credit, he acknowledged his problem and lost the weight.

[THELADYKT]

Yeah, I have to admit most of the obese folks I see in uniform are E7 and above. Note that I said "obese" and not just "overweight". I've seen junior troops that could stand to lose a few pounds, but the really fat ones are usually the higher ranking. And you're right, if a squadron is burning junior enlisted on weight issues the same standard needs to be applied to senior.

Having said that, my last base our shirt was obese. Man could run like the wind, though, so he passed the test. Eventually, our commander counseled him to drop the poundage - and, to his credit, he acknowledged his problem and lost the weight.

Love to know how he got through first sergeant school being obese. Shirt are supposed to be the ideal that younger troops should look up too. Glad he corrected himself but surprised that he got into that job to begin with.

[Unregistered]

Agreed, let's continue to revamp the PT program and make the USAF as painful as possible in a effort to achieve physical and moral perfection of every airman. Those with high cheekbone structure should get a few extra points as well. Also, can we get a new uniform again?

[GunnyCapt]

I totally agree the PT test should be revamped and I see a couple of posters mentioned the USMC or USA fitness test. How about a variant of that?

Run - 2 miles (not quite a sprint and not quite a marathon) (times scaled for points), variant for non-runners will be rowing since the two are comparable with rowing still using upper-body strength but easier on knees or even
Pull - Ups - Scaled from zero to twenty
Push - Ups - Scaled from zero to 100
Sit - Ups / Crunches - Scaled from 0 to 100
BMI - Worthless tool since it doesn't take into account different variables
Body fat % - accurate and use the scale but not for points, just determnation on "military appearance"
Waist measurement - Remove it and include with BF% for above determination

Do you have a strong / weak point? it'll show up in one of the tests but you can still receive good points fofr the rest whether you have good upper body or abdominal strength. Comander's involvement should be evident throughtout the process and should be motivating all to succeed. Need help to plan? www.crossfit.com.

BLUF: If you're not PTing in the military and you need time during work, talk to your supervisor and draw up a plan to make it happen. You're in the military and PT is a part of it. Also, it's not only your commander or supervisor's responsibility, it's YOUR'S! If you want to PT, you'll find a way to make it happen. So, stop whining and let's get out there and PT!

Good luck to all.

[Rev Mike Large]

A) To the AETC 'haters' out there, please remove your 12 from your 6. Number of AETC members killed in the line of duty in the last 8 days: 4. And I can guarantee you they were training for the fight when they went to meet St. Pete. Everyone needs an AETC tour once in a while to remind them about being professional, fit, and using customs and courtesies. Call it 'reblueing' if you want to. The fact is, the pointy end of the spear may be what causes the damage, but you have to know how to hit the enemy with it (ie - training/practice) before it will do you any good.

B) To the Marine and Army folks who disrespected our Air Force on this post: why are you here, reading an Air Force forum? Why do you care what our standards are? You have envy. Get over it. GunnyCapt, your post was ok... at least it wasn't inflammatory; I'm talking about the other bubbas. The simple fact is, Army commanders in theater "by name" request Air Force convoy operators. Army and Marine grunts in the middle of the shit pray for Air Power to support them and make the bad guys disappear. We can't do it without you, and you definitely can't make it without us. Get over the envy.

C) Until they find a test that can accurately measure fitness, and policies that are fair across AFSCs, they don't need to compound the problems by adding in promotion points. If they do come up with a test that makes sense, I see no reason that points couldn't be added in to encourage TRUE excellence in fitness.

[Unregistered]

A) To the AETC 'haters' out there, please remove your 12 from your 6. Number of AETC members killed in the line of duty in the last 8 days: 4. And I can guarantee you they were training for the fight when they went to meet St. Pete. Everyone needs an AETC tour once in a while to remind them about being professional, fit, and using customs and courtesies. Call it 'reblueing' if you want to. The fact is, the pointy end of the spear may be what causes the damage, but you have to know how to hit the enemy with it (ie - training/practice) before it will do you any good.

B) To the Marine and Army folks who disrespected our Air Force on this post: why are you here, reading an Air Force forum? Why do you care what our standards are? You have envy. Get over it. GunnyCapt, your post was ok... at least it wasn't inflammatory; I'm talking about the other bubbas. The simple fact is, Army commanders in theater "by name" request Air Force convoy operators. Army and Marine grunts in the middle of the shit pray for Air Power to support them and make the bad guys disappear. We can't do it without you, and you definitely can't make it without us. Get over the envy.

C) Until they find a test that can accurately measure fitness, and policies that are fair across AFSCs, they don't need to compound the problems by adding in promotion points. If they do come up with a test that makes sense, I see no reason that points couldn't be added in to encourage TRUE excellence in fitness.


Well said! Can we please stop arguing about this now??? The Titanic is sinking and all wek keep doing is re-arranging the deck chairs here!

[technomage1]

In 3 assignments since we started the program, I've had very few SNCOs fail the PT test and when they did the same standards applied. Any promotable SNCO knows they have to lead from the front and CANNOT fail a PT test.


Fair enough. Like I stated, the standards should be applied evenly throughout the ranks. What I've noticed, though, is that the older folks who are obese tend to pass the test - but look like butterballs in uniform. Again, I'm not talking about a couple of extra pounds here, I'm talking obese. The junior ranks tend to have trouble passing the test. Who should be counseled? Both, in my mind. And the PT AFI states that. It's the commander's job to enforce that. What I have seen, with the exception of the shirt I mentioned, was that junior troops who don't pass the test are slammed, while SNCOs who pass but are obese are given a bye because they passed. And that's not right. I am all for giving the culture a chance to change, but I think we've had enough time for that. It's time to hold people accountable.

I don't think the test itself is flawed in this particular regard (I don't think the test is any easier for SNCOs than for junior enlisted) - what I think is flawed is the enforcement of all aspects of the AFI. In short, if you pass the test but are obese, then you're on the program and you have to deal with the career aspects of that - same as if you failed. I don't want this to be based only on BMI, either. I think anyone can look at a person and determine if they are obese vs. able to bench press a '79 Buick.

THELADYKT, I don't know how he made it through the school that way - I think he was a shirt for a while. He was excellent in all other aspects of the job.

[Tostitos9781]

Well I read over every post. I agree with quiet a few people here.

The Powers that be tell everyone to eat healthy, yet go to any Chow Hall, and you are hard pressed to find anything healthy. Heck, it is almost easier to eat healthy at Popeye's than it is at a chow hall. The one common thread I have found in all the chow halls I have eaten at, is that all the food is loaded with fat and salt. Until the Air Force cleans things up and mandates healthier food in the chow hall, they are not serious about fitness.

Also, the Air Force needs to take a hard stand on mandating PT. Currently the Air Force is not like some other services, that allows three ours for PT and Clean-up intigrated into an 8 hour work day. I typically work a ten to twelve hour day before I get a chance to do PT.

Some say that it is easy to close up Customer Service Shops for the day to go do PT. Try telling that to the Pilots, when they want to fly and all the Air Traffic Controllers, Meteorologists, Base Ops, Firemen, Maintainers, Nurses, Doctors, etc are out doing PT. If the Air Force really was serious about PT, then they would do one of two things. First, they could increase the size of the Air Force by about 1/3, to allow people to work PT into an 8-10 hour day (instead of 10-12 hours at work before they can even get to PT). The Second option is to close down all operations on the Base three times a week from 6 (or 7)AM until 8 (or 9)AM, and mandate PT. As part of Option two, the Air Force should not add two hours to everyone's day to make up for lost time on the Mission. PT is the Mission.

Finally, the Air Force needs to get rid of the BMI, it does nothing more than attempt to make everyone look pretty in a Uniform. It has no connection with health. It should be replaced with at least a Skin Fold Test, or Bioeletrical Impedance Analysis, to accuratly access health. The sad truth is the Air Force has no idea if the people in the Air Force are Obese, because the Air Force has never , to my knowledge, tested accuratly for Body Fat.

One of the Unhealthy aspects to the BMI is that it promotes Anorexia. I currently Meet Air Force standards for physique. I have a 31" waist, I am 5'9", and 150lbs. This is unhealthy, because my percent body fat is actually about 6-7%. A body fat of 5% and lower is considered annorexic in males. It is also bad for the Mission. I must eat at least once every ten hours. If I go longer than ten hours without eating, I have symptoms similar to Hypoglycemia. I loose the ability to concentrate and I start feeling anxious (nervous). My Hands start to shake, and I have problems standing for long periods. I also start cold sweats, my skin feels clammy, and my fingers start to tingle. I did not have those problems when I weighed 180lbs (I was healthy, I could run 4 miles, cross country, meeting army standards. But, when I weighed 180lbs, I was considered 11lbs overweight by Air Force Standards. I must say it is really great that I meet Air Force Standards, just let me stop in the middle of a fire fight so I can eat a snickers to get my blood sugar back up.


Charlie

[Unregistered]

I am 6’4” inches tall and weigh 210 pounds. When it comes to the PT test all I have to do is 25 push-ups, 30 sit-ups, and complete the 1.5 miles in 14:20 (basically a brisk walk) in order to pass. I point that out to say this: When I was 240 pounds (6 months ago) I had to basically double my push-ups and sit-ups and complete my run in 12 minutes or less. The PT test wasn’t really created to assess physical fitness; I think it was created more along the lines to promote a healthier lifestyle for our Airmen.

[jaycc]

If the Air Force is serious about fitness then it needs to consider some options:

A) Allow only people with ballerina,gymnast or marathon-runner bodies into the Air Force

If number one above is not possible, DUH,

B) Bring back the doctors and medical facilities; we need better physicals
- Equip each squadron with a fitness instructor and nutritionist
- Get rid of the fat cities we call food courts -- replace them with fresh, quality, low fat food -- start at the
Pentagon and be an example
- Get rid of the alcohol on bases -- nothing worse for weight than that

Or if really really serious about airmen's health ... then also ditch the tobacco sales -- my goodness, selling cigarrettes and snuff to our people while telling them that a 40 inch belly will kill them ... GO FIGURE!

[Mr. Ralph]

The first thing I want to say is kudos to the staff of Air Force Times for featuring this story. Air Force fitness is extremely important. We need to open up more discussion on this matter. In my opinion, nothing is going to ever change until we in the Air Force make a considerable culture/mindset change in regard to fitness. When I came in 15 years ago I can tell you that fitness was not a real priority on the enlisted or officer side. (Yes, every base had to few individuals who were gym rats......but that was the exception.) I think the Air Force has made tremendous strides in our fitness program. I agree, it definitely needs some tweaking, but it is definitely better than what it used to be.

Also, people need to realize that the Air Force is made up of many different people of different sizes and ethnicities. (Not everyone is going to fit into a "cookie-cutter" skinny, 28-30 waist for a 30 year career span.) I had a supervisor tell me years ago that in the Air Force we must conform to STANDARDS. He went on to say that nobody in the Air Force can force you to exceed standards.....me must simply meet standards or leave. I just took my PT test this week and passed.....but I certainly need to improve. I am currently working hard to improve my score but I am not going to end my life trying attain that perfect score of 100. I intend to step my game up, work harder and help my fellow Airmen to do the same. I sat in an auditorium at Lackland AFB in 2006 and heard former CMSAF Murray state it best: "At my current age I feel it is more important to live to reach 100 vs. trying to score 100 on the PT test!"

[Unregistered]

Different jobs place different physical demands on the body. The mechanic on the flightline often works in daily situations that stress the body out completely, yet in different ways than the security force airman. The para rescue troops are expected to maintain a super fit status because when they are called to perform, someones life directly depends on them being fit and able. The administrative clerk spends a lot of time sitting in front of a computer screen and that job stresses the back and other parts of the body in ways the para rescue airman probably doesn't identify with. The mechanic, after working a hard day on the flight line, getting soaked with oil, hydraulic fluid or jet fuel and having to contort their body over extended periods of time to turn wrenches in unusual positions is just greatful to see an end to their shift, let alone go excersize and run everyday. Point: The air force must decide if they want to continue on with the one size fits all fitness test that will affect careers. You might have an ace mechanic out there who works their rear off everyday yet simply can not consistently perform to the one size fits all standard. Is it worth losing this person, who has become valuable to their unit, who the air force has spent thousands on training, is it worth losing them because they miss some measurement by an inch or two or misses running the distance by a minute or two? Since the military likes one standard for all, the air force should have a mediocre test for the standard that measures consistency. I agree with the person who said why not have everyone run 3/4 of a mile every month or two. Give them all 14 minutes. Sure, some of you runners out their will say it is too generous but remember, some people give it their all in their jobs and are physically stressed at the end of the work day. It seems to me that a more frequent yet less time intense test would suffice as a one size fits all test to test the overall health of the force. Those in the more physically elite jobs like PJ's and cops wil have their own physical tests and competitions regardless of any standard air force test for the rest, (the bulk) of the force. Should the test be to access the basic health of the force or to make everyone runners?

[Shrike]

Different jobs place different physical demands on the body. The mechanic on the flightline often works in daily situations that stress the body out completely, yet in different ways than the security force airman. The para rescue troops are expected to maintain a super fit status because when they are called to perform, someones life directly depends on them being fit and able. The administrative clerk spends a lot of time sitting in front of a computer screen and that job stresses the back and other parts of the body in ways the para rescue airman probably doesn't identify with. The mechanic, after working a hard day on the flight line, getting soaked with oil, hydraulic fluid or jet fuel and having to contort their body over extended periods of time to turn wrenches in unusual positions is just greatful to see an end to their shift, let alone go excersize and run everyday. Point: The air force must decide if they want to continue on with the one size fits all fitness test that will affect careers. You might have an ace mechanic out there who works their rear off everyday yet simply can not consistently perform to the one size fits all standard. Is it worth losing this person, who has become valuable to their unit, who the air force has spent thousands on training, is it worth losing them because they miss some measurement by an inch or two or misses running the distance by a minute or two? Since the military likes one standard for all, the air force should have a mediocre test for the standard that measures consistency. I agree with the person who said why not have everyone run 3/4 of a mile every month or two. Give them all 14 minutes. Sure, some of you runners out their will say it is too generous but remember, some people give it their all in their jobs and are physically stressed at the end of the work day. It seems to me that a more frequent yet less time intense test would suffice as a one size fits all test to test the overall health of the force. Those in the more physically elite jobs like PJ's and cops wil have their own physical tests and competitions regardless of any standard air force test for the rest, (the bulk) of the force. Should the test be to access the basic health of the force or to make everyone runners?

Well said.



.

[DES3]

iM AM 48 YRS OLD AND WHAT HAPPEN WHEN I CAME IN WITH THE OPTION OF THE 3 MILE WALK OR THE 1.5 RUN. THE CYCLE DOESNT DO ANY GOOD WITH RUNNERS AND ONLY THE OUT OF SHAPE SMOKERS AND COFFE DRINKERS. BRING ON THE WAL AND DROP THE CYCLE TESTING. I DID THE 3 MILE WALK IN 38 MIN DUE TO NECK/BACK SURGERY AND PASSED.

[jdckck]

I agree with what many of you are saying and this is what I wrote in response to the recent article.

I was just reading the article on the Air Force PT program and weight issues. I have done quite a bit of research into the BMI and discovered that the way it is utilized is flawed. The same criteria is used for all body types BMI and the only thing taken into account is height and weight. I have been in the USAF for 13+ years and during that time I have seen a multitude of body types that the BMI completely ignores. Fitness is about much more than being tall, thin and being able to run a fast mile and a half. Why not measure bodyfat in some way and use that in conjunction with a 1.5 mile run, push-ups and sit-ups?

You have your thin guys that ace the BMI, but not someone you would ever want to rely on to drag you out of a fight.

You have your overweight individuals. They are carrying a little extra and somehow seem to make it through the PT test every year.

You have your guys with really small legs, thick waist, and small upper body (pear shaped). These people don't make the dress blues look good and should stay in ABU/BDU at all times but they can sneak by the BMI.

You have your athletic build. These guys were made to be in the military. Low body fat, slim frame, muscular build, and ready to run.

You have your muscle heads. These guys spend a little to long on the weights in the gym, but we are in the military and we are supposed to be warriors. Isn't that what my Airmen's Creed says???

I guess I am a little bothered because I am more the last body type and the Air Force is the only service that will punish me for lifting weights. When I joined 13 years ago that was not the case and after 13 years of lifting I am trying to figure out where to go. I am 32, 6'1" and weigh 230 lbs, and by BMI standards considered overweight. My bodyfat is around <15% which falls within healthy ranges for my age and sex. I have talked to many people in my time that are feeling the same pain I am.

Has any thought been given to addressing the flaws of the current system and looking into obtaining more accurate numbers for a study? What is wrong with using a bodyfat % in conjunction with BMI to help achieve a more accurate statistic? It seems that only using one is an injustice to those that choose to serve.

Why in the world is the Air Force still ignoring the various body types out there and trying to make us all fit one mold?

Here is just one of the article I have found but there are many more out there.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/64577.php

[technomage1]

Since the military likes one standard for all, the air force should have a mediocre test for the standard that measures consistency. I agree with the person who said why not have everyone run 3/4 of a mile every month or two. Give them all 14 minutes. Sure, some of you runners out their will say it is too generous but remember, some people give it their all in their jobs and are physically stressed at the end of the work day. It seems to me that a more frequent yet less time intense test would suffice as a one size fits all test to test the overall health of the force. Those in the more physically elite jobs like PJ's and cops wil have their own physical tests and competitions regardless of any standard air force test for the rest, (the bulk) of the force. Should the test be to access the basic health of the force or to make everyone runners?

I think we do have a mediocre test for everyone right now. It is not hard to pass the test. It's hard to get an excellent, but in terms of scraping by with a 75, that's not difficult. As to the "time intensive" test, I don't see how the current test is time intensive at all. The last time I did it it took less than 45 minutes from start to finish, and that was with my tester and I have to walk a bit from the taping/scaling area to the track, and me stretching out once we got there.

I'm not saying the test is perfect, I think it needs tweaking in the body comp area, for example.

[Unregistered]

Well surprise surprise technomasge1 it happens. Both my husband and I are in the military and when he got down range the members supervisor was there with my husband and told him the whole story. To make it short he could not go becuase he was on the WMP. Whatever else was happening to him back home was not included, but it screwed my husband over big time. The Air Force is way to soft on people and it needs to stop. If you can't make it in the Air Force or any branch for that matter than stop wasting our time.

All poor baby, your husband had to go and do his job. Whine whine whine!!

[LUKEY19]

The Air Force needs to come up with a better judge of fitness. I really don't understand what your waist size has to do with fitness. I have seen many individual with 30" waists that couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. I am 6'3" and I have trouble keeping my waist under 39". I can do the run, the sit-ups and the push-ups but have to worry about who is doing the waist measurement because they can either make or break the PT test with their measurements. Everybody measures differently and that there could effect your military career.

[Unregistered]

These are all good comments and suggestions. All of which the AirForce will probably not listen to. Instead they will choose once again to spend millions of dollars and hundreds of man hours to research new PT standards all to goof it up again. So the real question is...with all these great suggestions and comments, will the upper supervision of the AF ever listen to its' people? Probably not. Until they do, just do what I do, train for your Pt test four months out of the year and enjoy the other eight. I guarantee this is a high trend to pass the test as well. Bye all.

[Mr. Ralph]

These are all good comments and suggestions. All of which the AirForce will probably not listen to. Instead they will choose once again to spend millions of dollars and hundreds of man hours to research new PT standards all to goof it up again. So the real question is...with all these great suggestions and comments, will the upper supervision of the AF ever listen to its' people? Probably not. Until they do, just do what I do, train for your Pt test four months out of the year and enjoy the other eight. I guarantee this is a high trend to pass the test as well. Bye all.

--------------------------------------------
WOW! Best comment I've seen! The person who wrote this was straight to the point. (Somewhat pessimistic, but still honest and accurate.) I'll bet better than half of the Air Force does exactly what he/she mentiond in regard to PT test preparation. Let's face it, there are only a few high ranking individuals in Washington D.C. making Air Force policy for a vast number of people around the world who all look different, eat different, and live different. When you really start thinking about it, will you ever have ONE singular test that accurately measures the true fitness of EVERY singe man and woman in the United States Air Force? Take a look at the annual Air Force PT test, work hardest on the area or areas you have the most trouble and chances are you'll pass. Now, if you really want to improve personal fitness you'll have to make a personal commitment to change that reaches far beyond just meeting Air Force standards.

[LuckyDucky]

The Air Force PT test is there for many reasons. In basic you are held on a larger scale, because that is what the Air Force is trying to accomplish. The Air Force is more of a corparation, thats why we have to look so prefessional. Not picking at other branches, but look how we are compared to them. We have the few bad apples, but for the most part are people are more professional and well kept. PT is a standard that should be taken throughout our whole Air Force. I agree that PT tests should be different for every job, however they should have a set standard. If we just allowed people to do whatever they wanted then we would not be military. The other branches think that we do absoulutely nothing, when in all actuallty we work our butts off. I think PT is a good thing!

[AeromedicalMan]

I have a hard time with a mandatory PT testing program, when the Air Force doesn't enforce a mandatory PT training program. I work 12hr shifts in a small shop, when I brough up that we are suppose to be allowed 90 minutes of Aerobic/Anerobic activity each day so I could get a better pt score. However my boss disagreed and I work out on my own time, but I get in less of a work out. The Air Force needs to enforce the PT standards for every aspect of the program.

[THELADYKT]

I have a hard time with a mandatory PT testing program, when the Air Force doesn't enforce a mandatory PT training program. I work 12hr shifts in a small shop, when I brough up that we are suppose to be allowed 90 minutes of Aerobic/Anerobic activity each day so I could get a better pt score. However my boss disagreed and I work out on my own time, but I get in less of a work out. The Air Force needs to enforce the PT standards for every aspect of the program.

Sounds like you need to have a discussion with your first sergeant. If that doesn't work, you need to have a talk with the HAWC (in conjunction with 5.2.2.2.3.) who can have a talk with your supervisor and your commander if necessary

AFI10-248 specifically says:


5.2.2.2. Members must participate in a unit Fitness Improvement Program (FIP).
5.2.2.2.1. Members will exercise 4-5 days per week. This may be accomplished during the
member’s unit PT program or at a FC-led designated FIP class.
5.2.2.2.2. Members are required to monitor heart rate/intensity during the FIP.
5.2.2.2.3. Members are required to have their AF Form 1975 signed by the FIP class instructor,
certified PTL, or FPM at the end of each exercise session and available to evaluation and
further recommendations by the FPM at monthly HLP follow-up.


If 5.2.2.2.1. is during your duty time, then your supervisor must allow you to go. Only way he could get around it is to screw you and put you on strict swing or night shift so that the FIP classes or unit PT is always on "your" time

[Shrike]

Sounds like you need to have a discussion with your first sergeant. If that doesn't work, you need to have a talk with the HAWC (in conjunction with 5.2.2.2.3.) who can have a talk with your supervisor and your commander if necessary

AFI10-248 specifically says:


5.2.2.2. Members must participate in a unit Fitness Improvement Program (FIP).
5.2.2.2.1. Members will exercise 4-5 days per week. This may be accomplished during the
member’s unit PT program or at a FC-led designated FIP class.
5.2.2.2.2. Members are required to monitor heart rate/intensity during the FIP.
5.2.2.2.3. Members are required to have their AF Form 1975 signed by the FIP class instructor,
certified PTL, or FPM at the end of each exercise session and available to evaluation and
further recommendations by the FPM at monthly HLP follow-up.


If 5.2.2.2.1. is during your duty time, then your supervisor must allow you to go. Only way he could get around it is to screw you and put you on strict swing or night shift so that the FIP classes or unit PT is always on "your" time

THELADYKT, the section of the AFI you quoted above refers to AF members who test in a poor category. I don't think AeromedicalMan mentioned being in the "poor" category.

I believe these excerpts would probably be more beneficial:
1.13. Unit/Squadron Commander (CC):
1.13.2. Provides overall work environment for a community that is supportive of optimal nutrition
and fitness by providing access to facilities that provide healthy foods and gives time to exercise during
duty time (DT).
1.13.3.1. Commanders will identify by written policy a unit-based program led by trained PTL at
least three times per week, specifying frequency of required individual participation. The commander
will provide FPM with copy of written policy.
1.13.4. Ensures all members are permitted up to 90 minutes of DT for PT 3 times weekly.

For this last one, people have to be careful what they wish for. There have been organizations that have increased their duty hours in order to achieve this. In other words, if a "normal" shift was 10 hours, then the commander "expands" the duty day by 90 minutes in order to incorporate PT. So now the duty day is 11.5 hours. Personally, I think that's bullpoo and goes against the intent of the AFI.

[THELADYKT]

You are right. I did assume he was talking about Poor category. Thanks for the backup too.

[Shrike]

You are right. I did assume he was talking about Poor category. Thanks for the backup too.

That's our "wingman culture"!

:)

[THELADYKT]

That's our "wingman culture"!

:)

I think I made the leap when he said 90 minutes every day. To me that implies the poor category. The rest only get up to 3 days a week. Ah well.

{{{Hugs for my wingman}}}

[Shrike]

I think I made the leap when he said 90 minutes every day. To me that implies the poor category. The rest only get up to 3 days a week. Ah well.

{{{Hugs for my wingman}}}

You may well be correct with the "every day" statement; I missed that.

Either way, I think we tag-teamed him some good AFI fuel!

;)

[CEHammer]

The one thing that I wish they would incorporate is a minimal standard for the push-ups and sit-ups. Until the other day, I would have never believed that someone scoring in the upper 80s couldn't even do half their max sit-ups and push-ups. He couldn't even complete 28 sit-ups and did only 25 push-ups. When he was done, he was looked like he may pass out or have a heart attack. To me, the Push-ups and Sit-ups are also an important part of fitness. Maybe less merit should be on the Waist or BMI and more should be put on overall Fitness.

[Shrike]

THELADYKT, the section of the AFI you quoted above refers to AF members who test in a poor category. I don't think AeromedicalMan mentioned being in the "poor" category.

I believe these excerpts would probably be more beneficial:
1.13. Unit/Squadron Commander (CC):
1.13.2. Provides overall work environment for a community that is supportive of optimal nutrition
and fitness by providing access to facilities that provide healthy foods and gives time to exercise during
duty time (DT).
1.13.3.1. Commanders will identify by written policy a unit-based program led by trained PTL at
least three times per week, specifying frequency of required individual participation. The commander
will provide FPM with copy of written policy.
1.13.4. Ensures all members are permitted up to 90 minutes of DT for PT 3 times weekly.

For this last one, people have to be careful what they wish for. There have been organizations that have increased their duty hours in order to achieve this. In other words, if a "normal" shift was 10 hours, then the commander "expands" the duty day by 90 minutes in order to incorporate PT. So now the duty day is 11.5 hours. Personally, I think that's bullpoo and goes against the intent of the AFI.

Wow, someone actually dinged my rep for posting this.

Anonymously, of course.

[Shrike]

The one thing that I wish they would incorporate is a minimal standard for the push-ups and sit-ups. Until the other day, I would have never believed that someone scoring in the upper 80s couldn't even do half their max sit-ups and push-ups. He couldn't even complete 28 sit-ups and did only 25 push-ups. When he was done, he was looked like he may pass out or have a heart attack. To me, the Push-ups and Sit-ups are also an important part of fitness. Maybe less merit should be on the Waist or BMI and more should be put on overall Fitness.

I agree; the point scales are very skewed. I can max my pushups pretty easily and get 10 points. Someone else in my age group that does 13 pushups gets 7 points. So for doing less than 30% of the maximum, they get 70% of the possible points.

My only reaction to that is a hearty WTF???

[JHawkG33K]

I whole heartedly agree Shrike. Whoever came up with the point scale definately wasn't a math whiz....

[Rev Mike Large]

Wow, someone actually dinged my rep for posting this.

Anonymously, of course.

I wouldn't sweat it, buddy. I got a feedback saying "no wonder I can smell you from all the way over here..." after stating that I still had 3 serviceable sets of BDUs on a different post. After I composed myself from not laughing so hard, I just looked on the bright side: the AF Times forums do not discriminate or turn away users who are brain dead.

Here's to keeping the solid comments coming, and ignoring the troglodytes who cower behind anonymous handles and feedback.

[Shrike]

I wouldn't sweat it, buddy. I got a feedback saying "no wonder I can smell you from all the way over here..." after stating that I still had 3 serviceable sets of BDUs on a different post. After I composed myself from not laughing so hard, I just looked on the bright side: the AF Times forums do not discriminate or turn away users who are brain dead.

Here's to keeping the solid comments coming, and ignoring the troglodytes who cower behind anonymous handles and feedback.

That's a good attitude you have there, Rev!

[natper01]

My only problem with the PT test is that when I came into the military I was single and was able to get into shape fairly easily. 6 years later I now have two very cute, active toddlers. My concern is that with both pregnancy's I got what is called pregnancy induced Scoliosis. Now I know what you may be thinking "the military didn't issue you a family", while I know this I just wanted to make people think a little. My Scoliosis is not sever enough to operate and yet causes me pain almost every single day. I love working out, yes it's true. I actually like PT days (we work out individually in my flight) and make the best of all the time I have in there. The difference is that I do not run. I can't run because of the intense pain that I have when I do. I usually get on the elliptical or some other form of cardio as well as some strength training. I try my best during PT test to pass and so far always have. My fear is as I get older and my back gets worse I wont be so lucky. Why not get a waiver you may ask? Have you heard of Force Shaping? I love the Air Force and my job in the Air Force and would be lost without them. I still have the ability to perform my job, which by the way I'm a mechanic, with all the physical activity that it entails. I can work out with the best of them at the gym and play hard during exercises, which are supposed to be preparing us for the war. The only thing is I hurt when I run. I am afraid to get on a profile for fear of being kicked out. Shouldn't hard work and dedication in the gym through out the year count for something? Even if it isn't running?!

[Comm Chief]

Natper, I sympathize with your condition and wish you the best. I had a junior NCO - outstanding person - MEBed for the same condition. IMO, it comes down to deployment readiness, especially with more drawdowns on the horizon. Can you deploy? If not, you have some tough choices to make.

[Shrike]

That's a good attitude you have there, Rev!

Okay, in response to this post, someone left negative feedback saying "Screw You asshole...I know it's you who's been posting negative comments to my posts". This was again anonymous.

So, Mr. Anonymous, if you would care to point out the negative comment or feedback that so hurt your feelings, perhaps we can discuss it like men instead of children. If you want to P.M. me, feel free to do so. Because honestly, I don't remember leaving negative feedback for anyone over the last month or so except for spammers and for a certain person over some spamming issues.

But if you prefer to just keep being a back-stabbing little punk, then have at it.

(To the other people who truly make this a "community" - please, no offsetting positive feedback, as it didn't take down the rep. But thanks to those who did so earlier!)

[ChaplainC]

The one thing that I wish they would incorporate is a minimal standard for the push-ups and sit-ups. Until the other day, I would have never believed that someone scoring in the upper 80s couldn't even do half their max sit-ups and push-ups. He couldn't even complete 28 sit-ups and did only 25 push-ups. When he was done, he was looked like he may pass out or have a heart attack. To me, the Push-ups and Sit-ups are also an important part of fitness. Maybe less merit should be on the Waist or BMI and more should be put on overall Fitness.

Well that is the amazing thing. The opposite is also true! I aced the push-ups, and I missed the sit-ups by two or three. What did I end up with? 75, barely passing! I am not a runner, I just suck at running, I am sorry, so sue me. I always did amazing with those bike style tests (never did it for the Air Force, but in college we did the same test several times for several of my health and nutrition courses, and I looked up my scores to see how I would have done.)

So really, to me this is a horrible test. Shoot the taller you are the harder it is to do push-ups and sit-ups, but in theory they should run faster. (not true, they weigh a lot more too) So, to me, this test is a total farce! I keep working to do it, but really, it is ridiculous. And if you think I am EVER going to get to a 29" waist you are nuts and a half. Do they want me looking anorexic?

To me the PFT is about as good a deal as the ABU and the new blues.

[warr1or]

Okay, in response to this post, someone left negative feedback saying "Screw You asshole...I know it's you who's been posting negative comments to my posts". This was again anonymous.


LOL, someone told me "F*** off Army guy." Anonymously. I even mentioned in the thread I was Air Force.

[Measure Man]

Well that is the amazing thing. The opposite is also true! I aced the push-ups, and I missed the sit-ups by two or three. What did I end up with? 75, barely passing! I am not a runner, I just suck at running, I am sorry, so sue me. I always did amazing with those bike style tests (never did it for the Air Force, but in college we did the same test several times for several of my health and nutrition courses, and I looked up my scores to see how I would have done.)

So really, to me this is a horrible test. Shoot the taller you are the harder it is to do push-ups and sit-ups, but in theory they should run faster. (not true, they weigh a lot more too) So, to me, this test is a total farce! I keep working to do it, but really, it is ridiculous. And if you think I am EVER going to get to a 29" waist you are nuts and a half. Do they want me looking anorexic?

To me the PFT is about as good a deal as the ABU and the new blues.

Just goes to show...no program will make everyone happy.

[ChaplainC]

LOL, someone told me "F*** off Army guy." Anonymously. I even mentioned in the thread I was Air Force.

CLEARLY the answer here is a Forest Gump truism.

Mama always said "Stupid is as Stupid does."

:)

It is amazing to me that people actually take time out of their personal lives just to make idiotic remarks like that. Then they are so far gone that they do not sign their names, like you know them anyway!

Oh well, if you ever find the person ask him/her is ignorance really is as blissful as they say it is. :D

[southernsweetie]

I think that the AF's PT program is unfair across the board, to include the cyle test when it was in effect here at Barkatraz. For people who are naturally short and stalky or for those that are visably fit, but not actually physically fit, they lose either way. For that reason, I think that weight/height and waist measurement should not be a factor because some really large ppl can out-run really thn ppl. I think that it should be fair across the board. Plus, if you happen to know the fit instructor, you might just slide on through..now how fair is that???

[Measure Man]

I think that the AF's PT program is unfair across the board, to include the cyle test when it was in effect here at Barkatraz. For people who are naturally short and stalky or for those that are visably fit, but not actually physically fit, they lose either way. For that reason, I think that weight/height and waist measurement should not be a factor because some really large ppl can out-run really thn ppl. I think that it should be fair across the board. Plus, if you happen to know the fit instructor, you might just slide on through..now how fair is that???

...and really tall people tend to die younger than not so tall people...that isn't fair either

[PUALLOFF]

Next time some Army toad gives you a hard time about the AF PT program or the "chairforce" show'em this picture:


http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii245/funkymustafa/n1607340035_16242_2178.jpg

[technomage1]

Now, that's the guy I want to be behind in combat. Mostly because the enemy will have a nice big, slow target to hit instead of me....

Guess this just shows how far the Army's standards have slipped in trying to get people into the service.

[HapaRy]

I think if PT is either a PASS / FAIL system on the EPR why don't we make PT a PASS / FAIL test.

I remember in Basic Training that we had to do our 1.5 mile run in 11:45 to pass. For many that is easy to do. For some, not so easy to do. We also had a minimum number of push-ups and sit-ups that were required. We had to meet that to get out of Basic Training. When we get into the "operational" Air Force, we can then do less than the requirements to get into the Air Force and still pass. That does seem a little odd to me.

We should set a specific amount of push-ups and sit-ups and set that as a requirement to pass. Then set a required run time and force people to meet that run time. Stop letting people pass the PT test that can't even meet the minimum requirements to get into the Air Force.



Matai (03-27-2008, 03:29 PM ) had one of best ideas I have heard in a long time. If it's a pass/fail on the EPR why not make the test itself pass/fail? Hats off!


But yeah, the way they weigh the portions of the pt test is beyond all reason. I am 5'10" 215lbs with a 41 inch waist. A few months ago I ran the 1.5 mile in 10:30 (I've been playing soccer for many a year), got 50 push-ups and 50 sit-up......but failed the pt test. THEN I see other base pop. conducting their tests on the track and some of them can't even run it in 18:00!!! I saw one in particular individual who was WALKING and I asked him "why aren't you running, this is your fitness test!" He said, "cause I have a 32 inch waist and i did well on the push-ups & sit-ups...I already earned a 90.." I couldn't believe it....this man was literally WALKING his way to a 90+ score, while I ran my ass off in a good time, did VERY well on the push-ups and sit-ups...and failed. Where's the Air Force pride in that?

I looked into the way the pt tests are set up, and it turns out that the rule of thumb is "over 40? fail." So this led me to believe that the Air Force doesn't want people who are actually in shape, they just want people who LOOK LIKE they're in shape!...(hence the heavy weight of the abdominal circ.)

...But what happened to the whole "TOBACCO FREE AIR FORCE" stuff I was hearing when I joined the service in '03????? Did it work? Did it dissapear?? What happenened??? Well it definetly did NOT work, this idiotic idea that an entire force would be tobacco free hahahah!!! No, it really did wash away like dust in a thunderstorm.

So how bout this: Instead of docking points for a bigger waist (I am living proof that it has very little to do with how in shape you are), start docking points for how much tobacco we use! Yes, the more you use tobacco, the more FITNESS POINTS you'll loose on the FITNESS TEST! What a brilliant idea.

THERE'S YOUR "TOBACCO FREE AIR FORCE" RIGHT THERE!!! ...or at least a much bigger step than what's going on now (nothing)

So back to the wasit-doesn't-matter thing. I believe that, yes, there should be a min/max waist measurement to abide by. 50 in. of waist is a pretty generous limit. But I do NOT believe that the Air Force should be failing people who run a mile and a half in 10:30, and near max-out push-ups and sit-ups!!!!! ESPECIALLY while the SAME SYSTEM lets 31in. smokers WALK the 6 laps and get a very well score!!!

[WILDJOKER5]

Matai (03-27-2008, 03:29 PM ) had one of best ideas I have heard in a long time. If it's a pass/fail on the EPR why not make the test itself pass/fail? Hats off!


But yeah, the way they weigh the portions of the pt test is beyond all reason. I am 5'10" 215lbs with a 41 inch waist. A few months ago I ran the 1.5 mile in 10:30 (I've been playing soccer for many a year), got 50 push-ups and 50 sit-up......but failed the pt test. THEN I see other base pop. conducting their tests on the track and some of them can't even run it in 18:00!!! I saw one in particular individual who was WALKING and I asked him "why aren't you running, this is your fitness test!" He said, "cause I have a 32 inch waist and i did well on the push-ups & sit-ups...I already earned a 90.." I couldn't believe it....this man was literally WALKING his way to a 90+ score, while I ran my ass off in a good time, did VERY well on the push-ups and sit-ups...and failed. Where's the Air Force pride in that?

I looked into the way the pt tests are set up, and it turns out that the rule of thumb is "over 40? fail." So this led me to believe that the Air Force doesn't want people who are actually in shape, they just want people who LOOK LIKE they're in shape!...(hence the heavy weight of the abdominal circ.)

...But what happened to the whole "TOBACCO FREE AIR FORCE" stuff I was hearing when I joined the service in '03????? Did it work? Did it dissapear?? What happenened??? Well it definetly did NOT work, this idiotic idea that an entire force would be tobacco free hahahah!!! No, it really did wash away like dust in a thunderstorm.

So how bout this: Instead of docking points for a bigger waist (I am living proof that it has very little to do with how in shape you are), start docking points for how much tobacco we use! Yes, the more you use tobacco, the more FITNESS POINTS you'll loose on the FITNESS TEST! What a brilliant idea.

THERE'S YOUR "TOBACCO FREE AIR FORCE" RIGHT THERE!!! ...or at least a much bigger step than what's going on now (nothing)

So back to the wasit-doesn't-matter thing. I believe that, yes, there should be a min/max waist measurement to abide by. 50 in. of waist is a pretty generous limit. But I do NOT believe that the Air Force should be failing people who run a mile and a half in 10:30, and near max-out push-ups and sit-ups!!!!! ESPECIALLY while the SAME SYSTEM lets 31in. smokers WALK the 6 laps and get a very well score!!!

So, why cant you loose the waiste? Do you eat too much? You say your active with soccer but is that a daily thing or weekly thing? Believe me, I lost 5 inches off my waist in a year, 39 to a 34 at 6 foot 1, 220 lbs. Yes it is obserd that a 32 inch waist can walk and pass the test, don't think they can make a 90 though.

[HapaRy]

So, why cant you loose the waiste? Do you eat too much? You say your active with soccer but is that a daily thing or weekly thing? Believe me, I lost 5 inches off my waist in a year, 39 to a 34 at 6 foot 1, 220 lbs. Yes it is obserd that a 32 inch waist can walk and pass the test, don't think they can make a 90 though.

It's just they way I'm built I guess. They're are plenty of family genes and body genetic make up to prove that some people are just built big. I've actually done a hell of a lot about it by staying involved with sports and lots of cardio. I don't eat too much, but you have to understand that a man 130lbs can survive with 1500 calories a day. A man 280lbs would die with only 1500 cal. a day intake. Take that into consideration.

[WILDJOKER5]

I dont know about your facts, i cut my cal intake (from what to what, idk) and that is how i went from 250 to 220. As for the big people, I believe the exist, i worked with a guy who was more athletic and physically fit than most people in my SQ, but his rib cage was 44 inches so that was what his waist was. He was 6'4" and couldnt get the waist to a place where he had a hope of passing. He failed just from the waist even maxing everything else out. Wasnt calling you a fatty, just asking simple questions.

My dad's family all are heavy set people, I have just choosen to keep active and eat properly with a higher cal intake on saturday so my body thinks it needs to burn more cals. During the week, I cut that cal intake way back.

[BENDER56]

I don't eat too much, but you have to understand that a man 130lbs can survive with 1500 calories a day. A man 280lbs would die with only 1500 cal. a day intake. Take that into consideration.

You'd die? Really? I'm guessing all that would happen is you'd lose fat ... and inches off your waist.

[HapaRy]

(lol) Wow - didn't notice that little gem until you highlighted it for us... thanks! (lol)

Yeah - to the original poster... you might want to do a little fact-checking on that one... 1500 calories a day is not exactly going to "[spell certain doom]" for most - even if you are a larger person and actively exercising... (lol)

;)

GOD, I love tangents! They are almost as fun as nit-picking and analyzing every little thing someone says! YES!!

If you're going to comment on my post, make sure it's about my original post; not a tangent, ok? And what is the "lol" inside parenthesis ? Is this a text messaging thread now?

[HapaRy]

USMC Minimum Fitness Requirments for Each PFT Event - Males

Age 17-26 27-39 40-45 46+
Pull-Ups 3 3 3 3
Crunches 50 45 45 40
3-Mile Run 28:00 29:00 30:00 33:00







You definately would have failed.You really don't know the USMC PFT. Sure each event you make the minimum. But by no means making the minimum means you actually passed the test. Yeah leave it to the Marines to score it like that, I know it sounds stupid. But we are based off of points and classes. There are 3 classes (realistically 4, the failed class....that's you). If you are not a 1st class then you can expect to be put on remedial PT and nutritional classes or possibly discharged. I'd recommed discharge for you, some people just can't hack it. Oh and we do pullups not pushups.

But my money is still on the Navy.

it WOULD be, knowing the corps is a department of the Navy. And I'm not a genieus, but making a minimum score ISN'T passing?? please explain.

I also like how the Corps separate troops' scores into classes. LONG LIVE STRATIFICATION!!! hahahahh

[HapaRy]

You're not really holding up Army discipline as a model to follow are you?

Let's talk about real discipline issues like:

Drugs,
Domestic violence
Desertion
Violent Crime
Sexual Assault
Insubordination

Lemme know when you have your facts together....and we can compare Army discipline to the AF.

Sticking up for the vetaran, you have just proved his point. The Army has a lower urge and tendancy to get into a pissing contest like you are. I AM a proud member of the Air Force but I have worked with the Army on two middle-east deployments and I can say this: The ARMY doesn't F&(# around trying to see who has a better idea; They go in, get the job done, and get out. Simple.

so again, Thank you for proving his point.

[HapaRy]

I know I said it in an earlier post, but I think it warrants being brought up again. Why is it we have 1 standard for joining the AF, but then no longer need to maintain that same standard when we get in? I don't think that has "excellence in all we do" stamped on it.

Any way...

I have a suggestion that would make people more inclined to do PT. What if we grant points for promotion to those who do well?? For example. When Airmen get a medal they are worth a certain amount of points when it comes to calculating for their promotion and testing cycle.

Why don't we do the same for PT?
100% = 5 points
95 to 99 = 4 points
90 to 94 = 3 points
85 to 89 = 2 points
80 to 84 = 1 point
75 to 79 = pass (you don't get booted out)
<75 = get help

That way PT becomes important. It has incentive to do well and to maintain. As it stands now there is no reason to do well in PT. Hell, I don't even get COMP days for scoring high. I get a congratulations from my commander. Which is fine if that what they want to do. I PT cause I enjoy running. Not everyone does. There really should be a reason to do well. Right now in my squadron, if you do well you run more than everyone else. WOW, talk about stupid. So, if I do better I get punished and have to do more. Where is the motivation to do well there? Those who are slower don't wan't to run faster because if they do, they have to run even more.

Sorry to burst you bubble but that will never happen becuase as we speak; pt is tied to our EPR's (pass/fail score) and EPR's are tied to promotions, which are inflating. Ever heard of EPR inflation? I was VERY happy to redcieve some 4's (ABOVE AVERAGE) because my sup. did it RIGHT. I never won btz or anything, but I knew that my sup. wasnt giving into the INFLATION. As long as we have inflation with EPR's/promotion, we will never install more points for promotion for a higher pt score. ESPECIALLY with our current pt test program.

[HapaRy]

I am 6’4” inches tall and weigh 210 pounds. When it comes to the PT test all I have to do is 25 push-ups, 30 sit-ups, and complete the 1.5 miles in 14:20 (basically a brisk walk) in order to pass. I point that out to say this: When I was 240 pounds (6 months ago) I had to basically double my push-ups and sit-ups and complete my run in 12 minutes or less. The PT test wasn’t really created to assess physical fitness; I think it was created more along the lines to promote a healthier lifestyle for our Airmen.


I'd say it was created to reward those who are VISIBLY in shape, rather than ACTUALLY in shape. As I've stated before, I nearly maxed out pushups and situps, and ran a 10:30, but my waist killed me. WTF, AF?

[CrustySMSgt]

And what is the "lol" inside parenthesis ? Is this a text messaging thread now?


http://tsfiles.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/pot-kettle-black.jpg

[CrustySMSgt]

Matai (03-27-2008, 03:29 PM ) had one of best ideas I have heard in a long time. If it's a pass/fail on the EPR why not make the test itself pass/fail? Hats off!


But yeah, the way they weigh the portions of the pt test is beyond all reason. I am 5'10" 215lbs with a 41 inch waist. A few months ago I ran the 1.5 mile in 10:30 (I've been playing soccer for many a year), got 50 push-ups and 50 sit-up......but failed the pt test. THEN I see other base pop. conducting their tests on the track and some of them can't even run it in 18:00!!! I saw one in particular individual who was WALKING and I asked him "why aren't you running, this is your fitness test!" He said, "cause I have a 32 inch waist and i did well on the push-ups & sit-ups...I already earned a 90.." I couldn't believe it....this man was literally WALKING his way to a 90+ score, while I ran my ass off in a good time, did VERY well on the push-ups and sit-ups...and failed. Where's the Air Force pride in that?

I looked into the way the pt tests are set up, and it turns out that the rule of thumb is "over 40? fail." So this led me to believe that the Air Force doesn't want people who are actually in shape, they just want people who LOOK LIKE they're in shape!...(hence the heavy weight of the abdominal circ.)

...But what happened to the whole "TOBACCO FREE AIR FORCE" stuff I was hearing when I joined the service in '03????? Did it work? Did it dissapear?? What happenened??? Well it definetly did NOT work, this idiotic idea that an entire force would be tobacco free hahahah!!! No, it really did wash away like dust in a thunderstorm.

So how bout this: Instead of docking points for a bigger waist (I am living proof that it has very little to do with how in shape you are), start docking points for how much tobacco we use! Yes, the more you use tobacco, the more FITNESS POINTS you'll loose on the FITNESS TEST! What a brilliant idea.

THERE'S YOUR "TOBACCO FREE AIR FORCE" RIGHT THERE!!! ...or at least a much bigger step than what's going on now (nothing)

So back to the wasit-doesn't-matter thing. I believe that, yes, there should be a min/max waist measurement to abide by. 50 in. of waist is a pretty generous limit. But I do NOT believe that the Air Force should be failing people who run a mile and a half in 10:30, and near max-out push-ups and sit-ups!!!!! ESPECIALLY while the SAME SYSTEM lets 31in. smokers WALK the 6 laps and get a very well score!!!


This post is so full of BS I don't know where to start...

I'm going to assume by your immature rants that you are in the under 25 category, which is also the most stringent standard. With that assumption:
41 inch waist= 15
1.5 mile in 10:30= 43.5
got 50 push-ups= 8.5
and 50 sit-up=8.75
Math ain't my strong suit... but no matter how I add that up, it still comes to 75.75, and a PASS

On to your "particular individual"
I'll use the easiest standard for this scenario, to try and give you the benefit of the doubt you don't deserve. Assuming this guy was OVER 55... but regardless of category, the run is worth 55 in EVERY segment... so even if this guy maxed out every other portion of the test, he'd have had to score a 15:19 - 15:38 just to PASS... and run it in a 12:55 - 13:36 to get a 90.

The "rule of thumb" on AC is you automatically fail at 42.5". While I think they need to address how this applies to the shorter folk end of the spectrum, IMHO, there are very few people with over a 42.5" waist who can call themselves fit.

You appointing yourself to "living proof" status would only apply if A) you actually failed, and B) if you maxed out the rest of the test and still failed. Given you couldn't even do the max sit-ups & push-ups doesn't really set YOU apart as the shining example of the persecution of super-fit people with greater than a 40" waist. :rolleyes:

And then, despite 4 paragraphs ranting about how the fitness test doesn't measure actual fitness, you do a 180 and say no matter how fit a person is, if they use tobacco, they should lose points.

Talking out your ass and spewing nonsense certainly isn't going to earn you any credibility on the board... or in life... :rolleyes:

[sigecaps]

If someone is living an unhealthy lifestyle because of their eating/smoking/drinking habits, then the toll of those effects would be seen on a PT test. It all balances out.

[HapaRy]

This post is so full of BS I don't know where to start...

I'm going to assume by your immature rants that you are in the under 25 category, which is also the most stringent standard. With that assumption:
41 inch waist= 15
1.5 mile in 10:30= 43.5
got 50 push-ups= 8.5
and 50 sit-up=8.75
Math ain't my strong suit... but no matter how I add that up, it still comes to 75.75, and a PASS

On to your "particular individual"
I'll use the easiest standard for this scenario, to try and give you the benefit of the doubt you don't deserve. Assuming this guy was OVER 55... but regardless of category, the run is worth 55 in EVERY segment... so even if this guy maxed out every other portion of the test, he'd have had to score a 15:19 - 15:38 just to PASS... and run it in a 12:55 - 13:36 to get a 90.

The "rule of thumb" on AC is you automatically fail at 42.5". While I think they need to address how this applies to the shorter folk end of the spectrum, IMHO, there are very few people with over a 42.5" waist who can call themselves fit.

You appointing yourself to "living proof" status would only apply if A) you actually failed, and B) if you maxed out the rest of the test and still failed. Given you couldn't even do the max sit-ups & push-ups doesn't really set YOU apart as the shining example of the persecution of super-fit people with greater than a 40" waist. :rolleyes:

And then, despite 4 paragraphs ranting about how the fitness test doesn't measure actual fitness, you do a 180 and say no matter how fit a person is, if they use tobacco, they should lose points.

Talking out your ass and spewing nonsense certainly isn't going to earn you any credibility on the board... or in life... :rolleyes:

I'll start with the only thing I 100% agree with you on: "the persecution of super-fit people with greater than a 40" waist" Because that's EXACTLY what it is. As for the rolling eyes, YES; they're ARE people out there that are fit and have over 40" waist.

To everyone else, I'm not saying that I am "super-fit", but if Krusty the Cown over here can't back up his rant with facts, then he really has no argument.

In any case, the bottom line, once again, is this: The current AF fitness assessment has a "over 40? FAIL" theme to it, leading us to believe the Air Force doesn't want people who are ACTUALLY fit, but only those who are VISIBLY fit. It really is using the pt test to help force-shaping.

[CrustySMSgt]

I'll start with the only thing I 100% agree with you on: "the persecution of super-fit people with greater than a 40" waist" Because that's EXACTLY what it is. As for the rolling eyes, YES; they're ARE people out there that are fit and have over 40" waist.

To everyone else, I'm not saying that I am "super-fit", but if Krusty the Cown over here can't back up his rant with facts, then he really has no argument.

In any case, the bottom line, once again, is this: The current AF fitness assessment has a "over 40? FAIL" theme to it, leading us to believe the Air Force doesn't want people who are ACTUALLY fit, but only those who are VISIBLY fit. It really is using the pt test to help force-shaping.

roflmao... I presented you nothing but facts, which you chose to ignore...

FACT: Your story about you failing PT test is BS

FACT: Your "particular individual" story is BS

FACT: you can pass the PT test with a 40" waist

FACT: the only thing you are a poster child for is:

http://bevan.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/pwned4.jpg

[HapaRy]

roflmao... I presented you nothing but facts, which you chose to ignore...

again with the text messaging posts. I don't understand

[CrustySMSgt]

I don't understand

I'm guessing you say that a lot... :rolleyes:

[WILDJOKER5]

I dont understand either crusty, you were pretty clear on what you said and how you proved it. What is he not getting about your numbers?

[HapaRy]

roflmao... I presented you nothing but facts, which you chose to ignore...

FACT: Your story about you failing PT test is BS

FACT: Your "particular individual" story is BS

FACT: you can pass the PT test with a 40" waist

FACT: the only thing you are a poster child for is:

http://bevan.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/pwned4.jpg



You're right! Just cause Krusty says it's BS, that must mean it's BS. I forgot you work with me and know all about the situation. My bad.

My post is BS, just cause you said so.

I can only hope you don't pass on that mentality to your children.

[AF Chief]

You say you have a 41 inch waist and ran a 10:30? I can honestly say I have never seen anyone do that. I am not calling you a liar, but I would have to see that PT score. Why don't you cross out your name and personal BS and post your sheet up here so we can analyze it. I would like to be able to tell someone that I knew a guy with a 41 inch run a 10:30 mile and a half.

[BRUWIN]

You say you have a 41 inch waist and ran a 10:30? I can honestly say I have never seen anyone do that. I am not calling you a liar, but I would have to see that PT score. Why don't you cross out your name and personal BS and post your sheet up here so we can analyze it. I would like to be able to tell someone that I knew a guy with a 41 inch run a 10:30 mile and a half.

Well if you think about it his gut could break the tape a whole lot sooner than when he actually crosses the finish line. But I wouldn't think that would cut any more than a good 10-20 seconds.

[CrustySMSgt]

You're right! Just cause Krusty says it's BS, that must mean it's BS. I forgot you work with me and know all about the situation. My bad.

My post is BS, just cause you said so.

I can only hope you don't pass on that mentality to your children.

Pretty sure it is a waste of time to continue a battle of wits with an unarmed man... but I'll give it one more go. What I "say" has no bearing on anything. I used the "FACTS" you presented, compared them to the AFI's charts, and came up with a raw score. I provided no interpretation of the data... you did all the "saying."

You're right, I should stop teaching my child to take everyone at their word, and assuming that what they say is the truth. I am a bad parent for teaching her to do the research to validate what people say when the BS meter pegs and just take what they are saying at face value, even when it smells like dookie. :rolleyes:

[AF Chief]

This can all be settled by posting up your fit test read-out without any of your personal info.

[HapaRy]

Pretty sure it is a waste of time to continue a battle of wits with an unarmed man... but I'll give it one more go. What I "say" has no bearing on anything. I used the "FACTS" you presented, compared them to the AFI's charts, and came up with a raw score. I provided no interpretation of the data... you did all the "saying."

You're right, I should stop teaching my child to take everyone at their word, and assuming that what they say is the truth. I am a bad parent for teaching her to do the research to validate what people say when the BS meter pegs and just take what they are saying at face value, even when it smells like dookie. :rolleyes:

So before I move on to another thread, let me get this straight: YOU presented FACTS, therefore they MUST be true. I presented MY FACTS, therefore they CANNOT be true. Got it. :confused:

[HapaRy]

Pretty sure it is a waste of time to continue a battle of wits with an unarmed man... but I'll give it one more go. What I "say" has no bearing on anything. I used the "FACTS" you presented, compared them to the AFI's charts, and came up with a raw score. I provided no interpretation of the data... you did all the "saying."

You're right, I should stop teaching my child to take everyone at their word, and assuming that what they say is the truth. I am a bad parent for teaching her to do the research to validate what people say when the BS meter pegs and just take what they are saying at face value, even when it smells like dookie. :rolleyes:


So before I move on to another thread, let me get this straight:

YOU presented FACTS, therefore they MUST be true.
I present FACTS, therefore they CANNOT be true.
Got it.

Way to bring back the cold war mentality of the Air Force, Krusty.

[Rev Mike Large]

So before I move on to another thread, let me get this straight:

YOU presented FACTS, therefore they MUST be true.
I present FACTS, therefore they CANNOT be true.
Got it.

Way to bring back the cold war mentality of the Air Force, Krusty.

Not trying to attack you or pile on, friend. But the reason Crusty's facts make more sense than your stated facts is that his are based on empirical evidence -- what we can actually see in the AFI, the standards themselves. He took you at your word, based off the scenario you claimed, and applied your figures against the standards for the age group most likely to have resulted in your failing score -- and surmised that based on your figures, you could not have failed with that run time. Essentially, whatever your age might be, based on the standards and your stated performance, you would not have failed.

That's what raised the BS flag. I agree with AF Chief that you could enlighted everyone by fully and completely removing all personally identifying information from your scoring sheet and posting it as an image here on the board. You certainly have no obligation to do so, but if you truly give a crap about proving your facts are FACTS, that's the way to do it. Show us that you did 50 and 50, ran a 10:30, had a 41 inch waist, and failed your PT test. Then our doubt will shift from your story to whether the standards were correctly applied at your testing location.

[DHarris75]

Yup - those numbers don't add up. Even the youngest Male group would pass with a 50/50, 10.30 and a 41" waist.

Now, go to 41.5 and it moves to the red. But I'd say that's a pretty good run - if you can run that fast with a 41" waist - Kudos.

[WILDJOKER5]

Talk about getting defensive, man, how dare you guys using what he said at face value and turning it around on him? Its like if he said he had 2 apples in one hand, 2 apples in the other hand, and only has 3 apples over all. How are you guys to know he has 4 apples from the data he gave you? He could just be holding 3 apples with both hands, sharing the middle apple with both hands, and saying there are 2 in each hand. It is kinda stretching the truth, but only he knows what is really going on, and he is just telling the story to get the most sypathy.

[CrustySMSgt]

Talk about getting defensive, man, how dare you guys using what he said at face value and turning it around on him? Its like if he said he had 2 apples in one hand, 2 apples in the other hand, and only has 3 apples over all. How are you guys to know he has 4 apples from the data he gave you? He could just be holding 3 apples with both hands, sharing the middle apple with both hands, and saying there are 2 in each hand. It is kinda stretching the truth, but only he knows what is really going on, and he is just telling the story to get the most sypathy.

This ain't a fruit basket. He stated very clearly his performance in each element of the test. nothing left to the imagination there.

He also made the claim someone got a 90 on the test without running... again, impossible.

If you're gonna talk out your ass; expect to be called on it... I'm all for proffesionally discussing an issue; but if your gonna make shit up to draw sympathy or steer someone to your side of an argument, I've got no time for you...

[Smeghead]

Don't hold your breath waiting for him to post his scores, doubt we'll hear from tubby ever again

[WILDJOKER5]

I am sorry crusty, I am totaly on your side and cant always express sarcasm very well when typing. It is the subtle sarcasm that i convey, not the over the top sarcasm

[CrustySMSgt]

I am sorry crusty, I am totaly on your side and cant always express sarcasm very well when typing. It is the subtle sarcasm that i convey, not the over the top sarcasm

roflmao... sorry I missed that. Truthfully, with all that talk of apples it was all I could do to be nice and not throw in a crack about the only place porky had an apple was in his mouth as he went round & round on the spit... but I didn't think that would add to the proffesional nature of the discussion so I refrained from making the comment! :D

[darkrider]

Alright my 2 cents, here is where we really need to look at the perspective from both sides. First we needed a program, one that measures and builds a healty state of living. Fare enough. You have to have a median to measure by in the same.

Second, not everyone is an ideal canidate for athletics and there is some genetics that are pre-disposed to for individuals. The assumption that everyone can be as the measurment suggest is preposterous.

Now I am 6'1", I have a 37.5 inch waist and I weigh in at roughly 265 lbs. Am I overeight, yes and I take strides to keep my waist down also. According to the BMI standards I am obese.

Now I can run 7 miles (barely make the PT test (IDEAL) Cardio standard), max my push-ups and situps, and just make a 75-76 score. Is it fair, I feel no its not. I can out do most in the appearance and muscular catagories. I still fit my uniforms and present a well dressed appearance. So what is the problem????

I can run further and last longer then those who just run 2 miles ( I am slower by far but still have stamina) so how does this make me unfit?

A standard has to be made to measure against, but when is a sprinter, that is the size of telphone pole more fit and can barely lift there own weight, compared to a person that ,in a combat situation, can lift two bodies in one instance to transport to a medical encampment, obese and not phsically fit?

THis is where the ideals that are set for the program have lacked. If you can do your own weight in reps, and in job comparison, lift, haul, jump, ride, push, pull, what needs to be done, and has the ability to remain in a state of readiness, when is this not physically fit?

I am all for being physically fit, and I think that there are those that have the ability to do what needs to be done to keep fit.

In my own way I am saying the measurement is not equally justifiable to all of us, and there needs to be a true standard accross the board that encompasses a well rounded group. NOT what the national Athletics Foundation states as a key for being physically fit.

Until it is not derived from what someone thinks is the best solution or states that yes we need to be fit, but not everyone is an athelete for the Olympics, standard then the service is going to suffer a great loss. Not only in leadership but in the ranks as technicians and professional. Yes we have to look the part, yes we have to conform, but you will not have all the:confused gold thats in the pot at the end of the rainbow.


And also an info note, in 1986 the Army developed a program in which they interviewed high risk patients that had problems with mobility and genetic issues (ie diabetes, fibromalgia). Those that had the problems were put on a program of simple walking and strength training events "Lifestyles 86" as it was called, In the end they discovered the number of patients that had mobility and genetic problems developed and faired better then those in the high fit catagories by having less impact and evasive damage to joints and pre disposition to surgey or impairment; particularly in the later state of health, around the 50's-60's age group.
This resulted in a greater effect on health care. So why are we running again?