Bone to Pick with CMSAF

[Silver Fox]

Someone asked me what brought this on, I take it you haven't been indoctrinated to the CMSAFs campaign to eliminate the term "troop" from our daily lingo? In videos, speeches and written communications he is adamant that this is somehow a derogatory term. I take issue with that, as it's utterly false.


Troops is not a derogatory term. It is not a bad word.

"Sticking up for our troops" has been the duty of the NCO since his inception.

"Supporting our troops" was the subject of a lot of propoganda campaigns throughout American Military History, and is a rallying call still today.

Using the term "troop" has been both a term of endearment, "Good job, troop!" and a way to get someone's attention when an infraction occurs, "You better square that s*** away, troop!"

Is the Air Force "too good" for "troops"? Are we "above" our brethren? The "troops" in the other services? I would say not simply no, but "Hell no."

I will continue to call my troops simply that, troops. I will bust my ass for my troops. I will not set my troops up for failure and I will help my troops in anyway that I can.

I will also do my damndest to be a hard working troop, worthy of being called a troop by all the good folks that support the troops.

Being in a career field that spends most of its time away from aircraft and having nothing to do with aircraft directly, I generally feel better about being called a 'troop' then I do an 'airman'. I don't fly planes, I don't fix planes.

Very respectfully,
Proud Troop

[CrustySMSgt]

I don't have a problem with trying to bring awareness to the fact that we are all Airmen... but to me it is kind of like the big stink that is made when you say "chow hall." I'm all for service pride... but I don't see anything wrong with refering to them as troops...

[ramprat]

looks like a bunch or revisionists are eliminating the old jargon.
the troops seem to be a second or third priority in the "new warrior af" ,hilarious
as its a disencitive,and the fearless leaders are too stupid to realize it!!!!

[Shrike]

We've had several CMSAF in a row that have been nothing more than polished politicians. I hope that Gen Schwartz goes a different route; we need a no-BS CMSAF that's not afraid to kick an ass or two if needed.

I know the last couple of CMSAFs had some serious issues to deal with - eliminating the "Chief Logo" and stamping out the scourge that is the word "troop" - but just perhaps, while the USAF was downsizing in the midst of fighting two wars, there were other things to focus on? :cool:

[ChaplainC]

Seems like most are right on target.

I have never heard the term "Troop" used as anything but good or benign. Seems really silly to go all out to get us to stop using that word.

It is like a few years back someone was pushing everyone to stop saying HUA and start saying "Air Power". Yeah, I am sorry to anyone who still says air power, but that is just gay. Not to mention going after words like that could not be a more fruitless effort! I mean really. NO ONE wants to waste time and tax money to fly some blow-hard around the world, and then sit there and listen to him say "You can't use the Words troop and HUA, please replace them with Airman and Air Power, respectively. Thanks Airmen, and AIR POWER!"

Yeah, whatever. Sorry also to anyone who thinks that all officers have to be yes-men. I aint.

And I still say HUA, and troop.
Blessings

[The Opinionated One]

Maybe we should quit using the word Chief since they say it is deragotory to Native Americans? More silliness from the leaderz...

[DogPile12]

I agree with Silver Fox. The CMSAF has too much time on his hands if he's worried about this.

[CrustySMSgt]

And I still say HUA, and troop.
Blessings


Hua!! :thumbup:

[BTDTNM]

I'm not in the Army. I don't do Hooa. I'd rather keep my mouth shut. I don't say 'downrange' or 'DFAC' either. If you want to steal some other branche's heritage rip of the Marines. See where that takes you.

[dapack69]

We've had several CMSAF in a row that have been nothing more than polished politicians. I hope that Gen Schwartz goes a different route; we need a no-BS CMSAF that's not afraid to kick an ass or two if needed.

I know the last couple of CMSAFs had some serious issues to deal with - eliminating the "Chief Logo" and stamping out the scourge that is the word "troop" - but just perhaps, while the USAF was downsizing in the midst of fighting two wars, there were other things to focus on? :cool:

I was in AFSOC for 13 years before my little trip to Korea. I knew General Schwartz when he was a full bird. The man will get the job done!!!!

[Vince]

I used to call the "dormitory", the "barracks" and was corrected more than a few times by SrNCO's and jr officers...I kept doing it. Along with "Chow Hall" and the aforementioned "troop".

[Calmo70]

We need a new CMSAF that really knows what is happening on the ground. I say make all current base, wing, NAF, MAJCOM Command Chiefs, as well as any PME guys ineligible for the next CMSAF. I say let's pull a 1st Sgt, Ammo, Maint, Trans, Security Forces, Logistics/Supply, EOD, Red Horse, Combat Controller, TAC Forward Air Controller, PJ, Loadmaster, and/or any other base level Chief direct from the AOR doing a real world mission as our next CMSAF. No more political hack yes men careerist E-9's.

[smarg]

We need a new CMSAF that really knows what is happening on the ground. I say make all current base, wing, NAF, MAJCOM Command Chiefs, as well as any PME guys ineligible for the next CMSAF. I say let's pull a 1st Sgt, Ammo, Maint, Trans, Security Forces, Logistics/Supply, EOD, Red Horse, Combat Controller, TAC Forward Air Controller, PJ, Loadmaster, and/or any other base level Chief direct from the AOR doing a real world mission as our next CMSAF. No more political hack yes men careerist E-9's.

BINGO.

Especially the last sentence. :)

[MrMiracle]

I used to hear 'troop' all the time in maintenance. Hydro-troop, E&E-troop, and so forth. If the CMSAF thinks this term is derogatory, then he's probably never worked in a field where it is used routinely.

[FGO]

That "don't say 'Troop'" thing isn't something Chief McKinley came up with--I first heard that a few years ago (before McKinley) and I think it came from a previous CSAF. It was the whole push to call us all "Airmen", hence the reason for not using "troops" because it seemed to refer more to the Army (yeah, I know, they are "Soldiers", but I didn't come up with this logic!).

I was in the same squadron (552 CRS) with McKinley when he was a MSgt and a Sqd 1st Shirt. He was a good guy then--I respected him. Haven't talked to him in years, so I don't know what he's like now. Obviously, to become CMSAF takes a bit of politicking, but that doesn't (IMO) automatically make you a sleaze bucket and worthly of less respect, as some here on this forum seem to imply.

[Former_1SGT]

Ok, I too have a bone to pick with the CMSAF; however, my bone is not the use of Airman v. Troop. While I respect everyone's opinion regarding the use of "Troop" as someone that was once and now is again...a "Radio Troop"...I have no issues with the use of "Troop" in Air Force vernacular. What has not been mentioned in the Airman v. Troop dialog is another issue to develop pride in our profession...the "Airman" coining ceremony in Basic Training...when trainees are first allowed to be addressed as Airman v. Trainee...after week five I believe. Anyway, I guess after a lot of hoopla in BMT in regards to the AF trying to build prestige in earning the title "Airman" as Marines earn the title Jarhead...I mean "Marine"...I would like to continue to be called an Airman and not a troop if I entered the AF today... Anyway, just another perspective...but I digress...

Actually, maybe I have more than one bone to pick with the CMSAF...

1. I was livid with Air Force leadership the first time I heard the AF was going to cut 40k+ Troops/Airman to pay for F-22s/recapitalization. I inherently knew that was a bad idea. If we are the most valuable asset...don't fire us...enumerate the AF needs to Congress for Capitalization. If I were the CMSAF, I would have retired before I went around telling Airman we needed to reduce the enlisted/officer corps to pay for Airplanes. "Do more with less became...do everything with nothing!"...I wish I knew who said that first to give them credit for the quote...

2. Airman's Creed. I like the idea...maybe could have had more input from the field instead of force feeding us the darn thing...I mean really, I need to memorize the Airman's Creed? Where is the emphasis to memorize the oath of allegiance...I mean, I consider the Oath of Allegience I took when I enlisted a lot more serious the the Airman's Creed!...but nobody is challenging me to recite my willingness to defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic... OK, a lot of rambling to get to my beef with the CMSAF. Last year when I was at Camp Red Cloud, Korea...still a shirt...I went to breakfast at Osan with the other shirts and chiefs... The CMSAF relayed a story about Gen Moseley finding an Airman's Creed on the internet that went something like...l am a seed, plant me and watch me grow... Apparently this spurned the AF leadership to create it's own official Airman's Creed...which is cool...I guess. But why did the Airman's Creed have to replace the NCO/SNCO creeds and every other creed other careerfields hold dear? I believe there is room for more than one creed.

Without elaborating at this point in time, some other issues I think the CMSAF could have had a better affect...the ABUs and rules regarding cold weather gear...huge AP (@$$ Pain) out in the field... The new heritage uniform...really? Don't we have much bigger issues at this time? No money to PCS...but we can develop a new service uniform? Where are our priorities Chief?

Anyway, I hope the next CMSAF is willing to throw the BS flag. I don't need an E-9 to explain the CSAF policies to me...I need a Chief to advocate for my/our enlisted concerns.

Thanks in advance for allowing me to vent!

[Silver Fox]

I'm not in the Army. I don't do Hooa. I'd rather keep my mouth shut. I don't say 'downrange' or 'DFAC' either. If you want to steal some other branche's heritage rip of the Marines. See where that takes you.

This is a blatant failure to realize that all of our 'heritage' came from an era in which we belonged to the Army.

So on that note, DFAC, Down Range, and Hua are much preferable to 'Dining Facility', Whatever the Hell you Refer to Down Range as, and the short lived and utterly rediculous (not to mention a bit limp wristed) term AIIIRRRP!

[Silver Fox]

2. Airman's Creed. I like the idea...maybe could have had more input from the field instead of force feeding us the darn thing...I mean really, I need to memorize the Airman's Creed? Where is the emphasis to memorize the oath of allegiance...I mean, I consider the Oath of Allegience I took when I enlisted a lot more serious the the Airman's Creed!...but nobody is challenging me to recite my willingness to defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic... OK, a lot of rambling to get to my beef with the CMSAF. Last year when I was at Camp Red Cloud, Korea...still a shirt...I went to breakfast at Osan with the other shirts and chiefs... The CMSAF relayed a story about Gen Moseley finding an Airman's Creed on the internet that went something like...l am a seed, plant me and watch me grow... Apparently this spurned the AF leadership to create it's own official Airman's Creed...which is cool...I guess. But why did the Airman's Creed have to replace the NCO/SNCO creeds and every other creed other careerfields hold dear? I believe there is room for more than one creed.
!

Well I think this one is because no one else in our government seems very adamant about defending the constitution, so they really don't care if we're sworn to or not. It seems that document has been used to whipe the mouths of some of the greediest, self serving politicians... naming no one in particular, and probably not who you would assume anyway.

[Rev Mike Large]

Most people here have been implying the current CMSAF is not effective, and many aren't offering more than just the fact that he's echoing a message that's been around for years now (and orignated with Murray, I believe) about the Airmen vs Troop terminology.
I know people who've worked with McKinley and say he's a good guy. However, some of the recent comments have been valid. If you read into the history and narratives about the earlier CMSAFs, you'll see several of them are famous for standing up and raising the proverbial BS flag. They got results. I really, from my limited view point, haven't seen any tremendous improvement (or even at least a tourniquet to stop the bleeding/downturn in QoL issues, etc.) that I can attribute to any one of the CMSAFs since Campanele. He's the one that pushed for the much better dorms for the troops and got it through (probably because Fogelman ROCKED also). The rest, since then, I've seen very little from besides emphasis of the CSAFs talking points.
Personally, I think troops sounds very unintelligent and has the negative connotation of Army grunts. Not that there's anything wrong with the Army, but I didn't sign up with them and am proud to be an Airman.
So I personally avoid troops in favor of Airman (note the caps, also). But do we need freaking TALKING POINTS and CMSAF bulletins/letters/articles on the subject? I don't think so. Shrike said it best when he said there are a ton of other more important things the top dawgz should be worrying about and better battles to fight.

[Measure Man]

Most people here have been implying the current CMSAF is not effective, and many aren't offering more than just the fact that he's echoing a message that's been around for years now (and orignated with Murray, I believe) about the Airmen vs Troop terminology.
I know people who've worked with McKinley and say he's a good guy. However, some of the recent comments have been valid. If you read into the history and narratives about the earlier CMSAFs, you'll see several of them are famous for standing up and raising the proverbial BS flag. They got results. I really, from my limited view point, haven't seen any tremendous improvement (or even at least a tourniquet to stop the bleeding/downturn in QoL issues, etc.) that I can attribute to any one of the CMSAFs since Campanele. He's the one that pushed for the much better dorms for the troops and got it through (probably because Fogelman ROCKED also). The rest, since then, I've seen very little from besides emphasis of the CSAFs talking points.
Personally, I think troops sounds very unintelligent and has the negative connotation of Army grunts. Not that there's anything wrong with the Army, but I didn't sign up with them and am proud to be an Airman.
So I personally avoid troops in favor of Airman (note the caps, also). But do we need freaking TALKING POINTS and CMSAF bulletins/letters/articles on the subject? I don't think so. Shrike said it best when he said there are a ton of other more important things the top dawgz should be worrying about and better battles to fight.

I agree with you...Campanale was one of my favorites also.

What we need is a crew-cutted, cigar-smoking, whiskey-drinking chief as the next CMSAF.

Unfortunately, it is not just at the top level...most Command Chiefs these days seem to be talking mannequins...pull their string and hear the three AF priorities...pull again and get the Airman's creed...it's like all abouit being "on message" with the CSAF...I honestly don't know what most of them do anymore. We have like 4 or 5 CCMs at our base...okay, the host wing CCM is responsible for the ALS, FTAC, Barracks, etc....but, what do they other guys do? What does a NAF CCM do exactly?

[Shrike]

I agree with you...Campanale was one of my favorites also.

What we need is a crew-cutted, cigar-smoking, whiskey-drinking chief as the next CMSAF.


You just described me...well, except for the Chief part. Do you think they'll take me as a SMS(Sel)AF?

:D

[Shrike]

Unfortunately, it is not just at the top level...most Command Chiefs these days seem to be talking mannequins...pull their string and hear the 3 AF priorities...pull again and get the Airman's creed...it's like all abouit being "on message" with the CSAF...I honestly don't know what most of them do anymore. We have like 4 or 5 CCMs at our base...okay, the host wing CCM is responsible for the ALS, FTAC, Barracks, etc....but, what do they other guys do? What does a NAF CCM do exactly?

You're a chief at Ramstein, right? Can't you tell us? :D

[smarg]

What we need is a crew-cutted, cigar-smoking, whiskey-drinking chief as the next CMSAF.

Unfortunately, it is not just at the top level...most Command Chiefs these days seem to be talking mannequins...pull their string and hear the three AF priorities...pull again and get the Airman's creed...

Good ones.:tongue:

My bone to pick with the CMSAF is REVERSE THE TRINKETS-AND-BAUBLES ADD-ONS TO THE UNIFORMS that's happend over the 10-15 years!!! The wide-white stripes, over-the-top stripes, adding the stars and officer insignia inside the CMSAF chevrons, changing the U.S. pins from officer-like back to enlisted, blah blah is all BULLSHYT.

Compare the enlisted dress uniforms of an E-9 from 1990 to 2008 and you see a circus-type change. What is it...officer envy? Army wanna-bees? What???

Okay, I fell better now. :D

[ramprat]

cmsaf ,,was created as a feel good position!

[Shrike]

cmsaf ,,was created as a feel good position!

Regardless of what it was created for - and I don't really agree with your position on that - there have been quite a few CMSAF that have achieved some great things for the enlisted force. If you doubt that, then take a minute to look at what Chiefs Airey, Harlow, Barnes, Pfingston, and Campanale accomplished.

Unfortunately, the position of late has become a combination cheerleader/politician.

[Rev Mike Large]

I agree with you...Campanale was one of my favorites also.

What we need is a crew-cutted, cigar-smoking, whiskey-drinking chief as the next CMSAF.

Unfortunately, it is not just at the top level...most Command Chiefs these days seem to be talking mannequins...pull their string and hear the three AF priorities...pull again and get the Airman's creed...it's like all abouit being "on message" with the CSAF...I honestly don't know what most of them do anymore. We have like 4 or 5 CCMs at our base...okay, the host wing CCM is responsible for the ALS, FTAC, Barracks, etc....but, what do they other guys do? What does a NAF CCM do exactly?

Just a word of comfort to those of you who have rightly observed that a lot of Command Chiefs are really more E-9 than Chief. However, there are some really really good ones out there still -- and the one at the 12 FTW at Randolph is possibly the best ever. Truly Airman-centered and selfless. Very involved, very much a leader by walking around. I'm not under his wing, but the guy is walking talking proof that there are still some good ones out there for us middle tier guys to look up to.

[Measure Man]

Just a word of comfort to those of you who have rightly observed that a lot of Command Chiefs are really more E-9 than Chief. However, there are some really really good ones out there still -- and the one at the 12 FTW at Randolph is possibly the best ever. Truly Airman-centered and selfless. Very involved, very much a leader by walking around. I'm not under his wing, but the guy is walking talking proof that there are still some good ones out there for us middle tier guys to look up to.

No doubt there are some great ones out there...

[TJMAC77SP]

Regardless of what it was created for - and I don't really agree with your position on that - there have been quite a few CMSAF that have achieved some great things for the enlisted force. If you doubt that, then take a minute to look at what Chiefs Airey, Harlow, Barnes, Pfingston, and Campanale accomplished.

Unfortunately, the position of late has become a combination cheerleader/politician.

I would agree with you for the most part (can’t say enough good things about Paul Airey as I was stationed at Tyndall for years). I was pretty impressed by David Campanale until the debacle with the “Duke” First Sergeant of the Year Award. His ego got the best of him and it ended up putting a stain on an otherwise distinguished term as CMSAF.

[Jdax57]

2. Airman's Creed. I like the idea...maybe could have had more input from the field instead of force feeding us the darn thing...I mean really, I need to memorize the Airman's Creed? Where is the emphasis to memorize the oath of allegiance...I mean, I consider the Oath of Allegience I took when I enlisted a lot more serious the the Airman's Creed!...but nobody is challenging me to recite my willingness to defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic... OK, a lot of rambling to get to my beef with the CMSAF. Last year when I was at Camp Red Cloud, Korea...still a shirt...I went to breakfast at Osan with the other shirts and chiefs... The CMSAF relayed a story about Gen Moseley finding an Airman's Creed on the internet that went something like...l am a seed, plant me and watch me grow... Apparently this spurned the AF leadership to create it's own official Airman's Creed...which is cool...I guess. But why did the Airman's Creed have to replace the NCO/SNCO creeds and every other creed other careerfields hold dear? I believe there is room for more than one creed.


Thats Well said. Someone else mentioned something about Talking points/Notes to Airman...etc. Personally I don't read them, print them, or care for them. Whats an Airmens Creed? haven't taken the time to read it or commit it to memory. Does that make me a piss poor NCO. Don't know don't care. I do care about my NCO creed and responsibilities. That is my duty....My duty is to do my job, piss off people, and make sure that my young Ahem "troops" keep their @ss in line and taking care of the mission. No more nit-noid junk about new service uniforms, changing this part on the uniform or that. No more Aim high or Above all (whatever the new company logo is, stopped keeping track of that a few years back). Let be serious, work on the issues at hand...cheap computers at training bases, finishing the war in Iraq, Increasing Manning, equal and fair treatment accross the rank structure (No more MSgts getting away with PT failures and watching good SSgts demoted because the have issues with the PT test).
In all honesty, I'm an Airman, I'm an NCO and a service member, and I'm a Weather Troop and for giggles I'm an indentured servant. And a Dorm is still a Barrack or a Living Quater....and the DFAC is still a chow hall, maybe we can Vote to have it more PC The Cafeteria (lets bring that one back from High School). :D

[Rev Mike Large]

I was pretty impressed by David Campanale until the debacle with the “Duke” First Sergeant of the Year Award. His ego got the best of him and it ended up putting a stain on an otherwise distinguished term as CMSAF.

What is that about? Just curious -- hadn't heard of this. Campanele was the CMSAF when I was a young Airman 1st, so my macro view wasn't as sharp as it has become now. I just remember he was the only one since that had an obvious, measurable, and tangible impact on enlisted members.

[Shrike]

What is that about? Just curious -- hadn't heard of this. Campanele was the CMSAF when I was a young Airman 1st, so my macro view wasn't as sharp as it has become now. I just remember he was the only one since that had an obvious, measurable, and tangible impact on enlisted members.

Here's a good link that covers the issue:http://www.us-japandialogueonpows.org/Stolen%20Valor.htm

It's a good read, and a prime example of how NOT to handle a potentially embarassing situation.
Quick summary - When Chief Campanale was going to bestow an award on Chief Duke, it came to light that Chief Duke may have misrepresented WWII service, including claiming false POW status (Bataan) and claiming awards and decorations that he hadn't earned. Chief Campanale really handled the situation poorly.

I agree with TJ that it was a stain on an otherwise good CMSAF.

[Calmo70]

Regardless of what it was created for - and I don't really agree with your position on that - there have been quite a few CMSAF that have achieved some great things for the enlisted force. If you doubt that, then take a minute to look at what Chiefs Airey, Harlow, Barnes, Pfingston, and Campanale accomplished.

Unfortunately, the position of late has become a combination cheerleader/politician.

Shrike - while I will agree with Airey, Harlow, and Barnes as CMSAF that did a pretty good job. I have to disagree with you on Pfingston and Campanale. And, I am talking as one who was a Chief during both of their tours.

Pfingston was the CMSAF during the McPeak era. And, God rest his soul, I just saw him as a yes man for McPeak. I just didn't see him as someone who was standing up to McPeak during the "objective wing" nonsense (where the manpower cuts started) or the bus driver/airline pilot service dress came in (and those are just two of the major screwups during the McPeak era).

Campanale - only one quick story. I was President of the Chief's Group at the base I was at when Campanale came through on his "farewell" tour. Long story short - we got into a conversation about issuing the Gov't Travel Card to everyone regardless of rank, age, credit history, etc. I said that there needs to be some control over that situation as young airman two or three days before payday were using it to get $20.00 to buy milk and diapers for their children and then getting into big trouble for mis-use of the card. His reply to me was more or less, if we are calling on them to die for their country, we could trust them with a credit card. I flew a BS flag at him as I said that was an apples and oranges arguement (one didn't have anything to do with the other). Obviously, I was not seen in a favorable light from the Wing SEA (now Command Chief) or Campanale. But, bottom line, didn't leave a good impression with me.

So - back to my original post on this thread - let's get someone from the AOR that is a base level functional Chief to be the next CMSAF - not a current Command Chief (at any level) or someone from PME. Let the next CSAF get true advice on the enlisted corp from someone who has been working it at the grass roots level his or her whole career.

[TJMAC77SP]

Here's a good link that covers the issue:http://www.us-japandialogueonpows.org/Stolen%20Valor.htm

It's a good read, and a prime example of how NOT to handle a potentially embarassing situation.
Quick summary - When Chief Campanale was going to bestow an award on Chief Duke, it came to light that Chief Duke may have misrepresented WWII service, including claiming false POW status (Bataan) and claiming awards and decorations that he hadn't earned. Chief Campanale really handled the situation poorly.

I agree with TJ that it was a stain on an otherwise good CMSAF.

Shrike,

You got the main points pretty close. In keeping with the AF policy of the time to name enlisted awards after distinguished enlisted personnel, it was decided to name the award for USAF First Sergeant of the Year after a retired CMSgt who had served as a first sergeant for many years and continued to serve the community after retirement (I believe as an employee or volunteer at the Family Support Center). This Chief (Duke) had for years claimed to be a survivor of the Bataan Death March and had in fact given many, many (reportedly heartwarming) talks on the subject. When Duke’s bio was published in the publicity leading up the first award another retired CMSgt who actually was a Bataan survivor and an officer or former officer in one of the two Bataan survivor groups contacted Campanale privately and merely suggested that a check of Duke’s personnel records be made to verify his service history since he was not a registered member of either survivor group. Campanale fired off a very nasty reply basically telling the retired chief to shut up and color and that he should be ashamed of himself. A total of four letters was written and replied to. Unfortunately for Campanale the retired chief sent all the letters to AF Time who published the letters and then made inquiries. It was at this point that the long requested review of Duke’s service record was made. Not only was he not a Bataan Death March survivor but I believe the record showed that he had not even served overseas as he joined the military late in the war. It is as you said a very good example of how not to handle a potentially embarrassing situation. I remember reading the stories and feeling very disappointed that Campanale had fallen victim to this.

BTW: I apologize for the threadjack

[Rev Mike Large]

So - back to my original post on this thread - let's get someone from the AOR that is a base level functional Chief to be the next CMSAF - not a current Command Chief (at any level) or someone from PME. Let the next CSAF get true advice on the enlisted corp from someone who has been working it at the grass roots level his or her whole career.

My main issue with a lot of the respectable arguments such as CALMO70's is that I think you really NEED a chief that has the "grassroots" experience but also has a significant exposure to a variety of environments -- including things like PME (or) 1st Sgt, etc.
I respect anyone wearing 3 rockers, publicly and personally, until they give me a reason not to. Then they lose my personal respect. But I have to say, those chiefs who stayed in their career fields the whole time can be commended for their expertise and dedication and longevity -- but they are in no way prepared to represent a broad spectrum of enlisted issues because they haven't seen enough outside of their career field's perspective.
For me, the ideal candidate is someone who went up through about a tour or so as a master in their primary AFSC, then became either an outstanding PME instructor or "real" 1st Sgt (ie - not being a desk shirt, but actually getting out and about), then comes back as a superintendent and/or functional in their field again, and then does the command chief route (again, doing it well by actually knowing their people and standing up for them when necessary).
That is a person with some broad experience, demonstrated dedication and expertise, and a good exposure to Airmen in various different career fields and how life is for them. IMO, that's what we need for not only our CMSAFs, but all command chiefs.

[Shrike]

Shrike,

You got the main points pretty close. In keeping with the AF policy of the time to name enlisted awards after distinguished enlisted personnel, it was decided to name the award for USAF First Sergeant of the Year after a retired CMSgt who had served as a first sergeant for many years and continued to serve the community after retirement (I believe as an employee or volunteer at the Family Support Center). This Chief (Duke) had for years claimed to be a survivor of the Bataan Death March and had in fact given many, many (reportedly heartwarming) talks on the subject. When Duke’s bio was published in the publicity leading up the first award another retired CMSgt who actually was a Bataan survivor and an officer or former officer in one of the two Bataan survivor groups contacted Campanale privately and merely suggested that a check of Duke’s personnel records be made to verify his service history since he was not a registered member of either survivor group. Campanale fired off a very nasty reply basically telling the retired chief to shut up and color and that he should be ashamed of himself. A total of four letters was written and replied to. Unfortunately for Campanale the retired chief sent all the letters to AF Time who published the letters and then made inquiries. It was at this point that the long requested review of Duke’s service record was made. Not only was he not a Bataan Death March survivor but I believe the record showed that he had not even served overseas as he joined the military late in the war. It is as you said a very good example of how not to handle a potentially embarrassing situation. I remember reading the stories and feeling very disappointed that Campanale had fallen victim to this.

BTW: I apologize for the threadjack

A much better summary than mine.

[TJMAC77SP]

A much better summary than mine.

Well, I wouldn't say that but the truth is that I remember the incident quite well. Probably because it surprised me so much. It goes to prove an theory an old chief told me once about what one is remembered for…..The Bridge builder and C#$)(@#)(#r Syndrome.

[Shrike]

Shrike - while I will agree with Airey, Harlow, and Barnes as CMSAF that did a pretty good job. I have to disagree with you on Pfingston and Campanale. And, I am talking as one who was a Chief during both of their tours.

Pfingston was the CMSAF during the McPeak era. And, God rest his soul, I just saw him as a yes man for McPeak. I just didn't see him as someone who was standing up to McPeak during the "objective wing" nonsense (where the manpower cuts started) or the bus driver/airline pilot service dress came in (and those are just two of the major screwups during the McPeak era).

Campanale - only one quick story. I was President of the Chief's Group at the base I was at when Campanale came through on his "farewell" tour. Long story short - we got into a conversation about issuing the Gov't Travel Card to everyone regardless of rank, age, credit history, etc. I said that there needs to be some control over that situation as young airman two or three days before payday were using it to get $20.00 to buy milk and diapers for their children and then getting into big trouble for mis-use of the card. His reply to me was more or less, if we are calling on them to die for their country, we could trust them with a credit card. I flew a BS flag at him as I said that was an apples and oranges arguement (one didn't have anything to do with the other). Obviously, I was not seen in a favorable light from the Wing SEA (now Command Chief) or Campanale. But, bottom line, didn't leave a good impression with me.

So - back to my original post on this thread - let's get someone from the AOR that is a base level functional Chief to be the next CMSAF - not a current Command Chief (at any level) or someone from PME. Let the next CSAF get true advice on the enlisted corp from someone who has been working it at the grass roots level his or her whole career.


Interesting perspective on Chiefs Pfingston and Campanale, especially seeing that you were basically in their peer group.

From 1990-1994 (Pfingston) and 1994-1996 (Campanale) I ranged in rank from A1C to SSgt. I spent a good amount of that time deployed, or living in the barracks while at home station. So my experiences were much different than yours, and tempered by "youth".

I remember Pfingston working to get BAS for field conditions, opening up EQUAL (which took a hell of a lot of mystery out of the assignment process), and doing a lot of work to improve training. One vivid memory I have is of a flight superintendent, a SMSgt, saying Pfingston succeded in spite of McPeak. I can't say if that was true or not, but to the E-3/E-4 I was, I saw the improvements at my level.

The main memories of Campanale I have are his push for better dorms and fighting Congressional changes to retirement pay. I also remember him being brusque, and willing to tell someone "that's a stupid question." So that obviously ruffled feathers. But - again - to the E-4/E-5 Shrike that I was back then, what he fought for impacted my quality of life and my career.

If there have been actions taken by the last few CMSAFs that impacted our younger troops like the above did me, then Public Affairs has done a really crappy job of publicizing them.

[Silver Fox]

Campanale - only one quick story. I was President of the Chief's Group at the base I was at when Campanale came through on his "farewell" tour. Long story short - we got into a conversation about issuing the Gov't Travel Card to everyone regardless of rank, age, credit history, etc. I said that there needs to be some control over that situation as young airman two or three days before payday were using it to get $20.00 to buy milk and diapers for their children and then getting into big trouble for mis-use of the card. His reply to me was more or less, if we are calling on them to die for their country, we could trust them with a credit card. I flew a BS flag at him as I said that was an apples and oranges arguement (one didn't have anything to do with the other). Obviously, I was not seen in a favorable light from the Wing SEA (now Command Chief) or Campanale. But, bottom line, didn't leave a good impression with me.
.

The best part is, you were absolutely right. Out of all the major fiascos that came about with issuing GTC's, the Air Force had a far greater record of GTC abuse then any other branch of the service at the time with some truly rediculous and ludicrous purchases.

Usually, I'm all for that general statement, "If we trust them to die for their country, we can trust them with XXXX" but that was obviously an exception. I do think that servicemen/women, regardless of age, should be allowed to purchase and consume alcohol while on military installations. If you don't want them driving around off base and going to civillian bars, fine. But they should be able to legally consume alcohol on the premises of their barracks or at the enlisted club. Treat them like adults, and they'll act like adults.

Prime example: On the way to a recent TDY, I had the option of allowing or not allowing to let my troops drink en route on the planes and at the airports. I chose to allow them to do so and only gave them the advice to do so responsibly. No one got drunk. We had a few guys have a beer or two, but no one got intoxicated. Rewind a little farther back, someone I was under told us while en route to another TDY that we were not allowed to drink at all. The result? It was the kid and a cookie jar syndrome. Tell them they can't, bet your ass they will. We had three troops sneak out. Two got hammered. One passed out in a tub with the water running and flooded the second floor of billeting and is lucky he didn't drown. He didn't lose a stripe or get any paperwork, the person in charge I feel handled the situation verbally (read: ass chewing of a lifetime) and forced him to pay for the cost to steam clean the water stains from the carpet. The second guy was not so lucky and never returned to his dorm room, finding his way back to base after our plane had left. He lost a stripe for missing a movement.

There's a lot of power in giving someone the power of choice, rather then choosing for them. Individuals weigh consequences more seriously when it is their choice to make instead of having something shoved down their throat.

[Silver Fox]

If there have been actions taken by the last few CMSAFs that impacted our younger troops like the above did me, then Public Affairs has done a really crappy job of publicizing them.

I can't recall the current chief doing anything productive other than basically telling us to shut up and color and wear our new craptacular ABUs... that are hot as all hell and have no tactical value. And telling us to shut up and color and memorize a rediculous new Airman's Creed.... and basically telling us to shut up and color and stop calling our Airmen troops. Also, wasn't the current CMSAF the one who spear-headed the end of Chief head dresses? Or was that farther back. That's not something I was aware of until more recently and was under the impression he brought that about in the name of 'offending Native Americans'.

In the name of tradition, the current CMSAF seems hell bent on killing tradition.

[smarg]

I can't recall the current chief doing anything productive other than basically telling us to shut up and color and wear our new craptacular ABUs... that are hot as all hell and have no tactical value. And telling us to shut up and color and memorize a rediculous new Airman's Creed.... and basically telling us to shut up and color and stop calling our Airmen troops. Also, wasn't the current CMSAF the one who spear-headed the end of Chief head dresses? Or was that farther back. That's not something I was aware of until more recently and was under the impression he brought that about in the name of 'offending Native Americans'.

In the name of tradition, the current CMSAF seems hell bent on killing tradition.

Yep, the current dude is a careerist E-9 fighter pilot butt kisser, like the last several CMSAFs...hey, they know the right butts to kiss, huh? :tongue:

It'll take the next CSAF to expunge the scourge of fighter pilot-dom within the E-9s...remember, they were in power for 25 years.

[Shrike]

Also, wasn't the current CMSAF the one who spear-headed the end of Chief head dresses? Or was that farther back. That's not something I was aware of until more recently and was under the impression he brought that about in the name of 'offending Native Americans'.


Nope, that was the previous CMSAF, Chief Murray. I think the main contribution to his legacy - aside from doing away with the "chief" logo - was always having immaculately groomed hair.

:cool:

[Measure Man]

Also, wasn't the current CMSAF the one who spear-headed the end of Chief head dresses? Or was that farther back. That's not something I was aware of until more recently and was under the impression he brought that about in the name of 'offending Native Americans'.

In the name of tradition, the current CMSAF seems hell bent on killing tradition.

Back at Base X....our Chief's Group actually polled the local native American tribes to see how they felt about the Chief's Group using native American images and items...

Everyone of them said "yes, we have a problem with that"

One of them actually gave a fairly lucid explanation...at least in my mind...which changed my opinion on the matter...it went something like this:

"The position and image of the Chief is not just one of leadership for us, but it has a religious and spiritual role. This is why we are offended by not just the USAF Chief's Group, but the use of those images with sports teams..." It would be sort of like having having your top rank identified as the "AF Christ"...or having the New York Jesus' baseball team... While we understand you feel you are honoring our tradition and do not intend to offend, we find it offensive and that it denigrates our traditions."

I no longer support the use of Native American imagery in association with the Chief's Group.

[TJMAC77SP]

Back at Base X....our Chief's Group actually polled the local native American tribes to see how they felt about the Chief's Group using native American images and items...

Everyone of them said "yes, we have a problem with that"

One of them actually gave a fairly lucid explanation...at least in my mind...which changed my opinion on the matter...it went something like this:

"The position and image of the Chief is not just one of leadership for us, but it has a religious and spiritual role. This is why we are offended by not just the USAF Chief's Group, but the use of those images with sports teams..." It would be sort of like having having your top rank identified as the "AF Christ"...or having the New York Jesus' baseball team... While we understand you feel you are honoring our tradition and do not intend to offend, we find it offensive and that it denigrates our traditions."

I no longer support the use of Native American imagery in association with the Chief's Group.

Well, put that way it does make sense. Of course, it is a pretty small minority of Native Americans who actually and truly completely adhere to their ancient religious beliefs but I would say the analogy was spot on.

Besides I found the ubiquitous picture of Sitting Bull pretty lame after awhile.

[BadHairCut]

Nope, that was the previous CMSAF, Chief Murray. I think the main contribution to his legacy - aside from doing away with the "chief" logo - was always having immaculately groomed hair.

:cool:

Dang. Is that what it takes to make Chief now???

[Rev Mike Large]

Back at Base X....our Chief's Group actually polled the local native American tribes to see how they felt about the Chief's Group using native American images and items...

Everyone of them said "yes, we have a problem with that"

One of them actually gave a fairly lucid explanation...at least in my mind...which changed my opinion on the matter...it went something like this:

"The position and image of the Chief is not just one of leadership for us, but it has a religious and spiritual role. This is why we are offended by not just the USAF Chief's Group, but the use of those images with sports teams..." It would be sort of like having having your top rank identified as the "AF Christ"...or having the New York Jesus' baseball team... While we understand you feel you are honoring our tradition and do not intend to offend, we find it offensive and that it denigrates our traditions."

I no longer support the use of Native American imagery in association with the Chief's Group.


That makes sense... but then the question becomes: "How do you visually associate chiefs, without using any Native American imagery?" Really -- aside from images of past and current chiefs, or those tacky graphics of the chevrons, what image do you use to enhance communications about people in our top rank?

[Measure Man]

That makes sense... but then the question becomes: "How do you visually associate chiefs, without using any Native American imagery?" Really -- aside from images of past and current chiefs, or those tacky graphics of the chevrons, what image do you use to enhance communications about people in our top rank?

Well...first sergeants do it...Top 3 does it...everybody else does it....surely we can find something....maybe a big revolving 1%

[Rev Mike Large]

Well...first sergeants do it...Top 3 does it...everybody else does it....surely we can find something....maybe a big revolving 1%

Fair enough... shame the AF in its infinite wisdom just axed all of our graphics pros! LOL

[Shrike]

Back at Base X....our Chief's Group actually polled the local native American tribes to see how they felt about the Chief's Group using native American images and items...

Everyone of them said "yes, we have a problem with that"

One of them actually gave a fairly lucid explanation...at least in my mind...which changed my opinion on the matter...it went something like this:

"The position and image of the Chief is not just one of leadership for us, but it has a religious and spiritual role. This is why we are offended by not just the USAF Chief's Group, but the use of those images with sports teams..." It would be sort of like having having your top rank identified as the "AF Christ"...or having the New York Jesus' baseball team... While we understand you feel you are honoring our tradition and do not intend to offend, we find it offensive and that it denigrates our traditions."

I no longer support the use of Native American imagery in association with the Chief's Group.

I heard similar stories from polls at "Base Y", where the local Indian (I refuse to use the term "Native American") tribe stated that because the Air Force used the imagery in a respectful manner, they did not care.

Same thing with sports teams - those that use the imagery respectfully usually don't offend tribes (Chicago Black Hawks), those that don't, do (Cleveland Indians).


Of course, being mostly Irish, I guess I should be all up in arms about Notre Dame using a drunken, belligerent leprechaun as their mascot. But then again, I'm not an overly sensitive, whiney, PC kind of person.

And before we veer too far off-topic, has anyone heard if Chief McKinley will be replaced, or will he be allowed to serve out his term before retiring?

[Rev Mike Large]

Of course, being mostly Irish, I guess I should be all up in arms about Notre Dame using a drunken, belligerent leprechaun as their mascot. But then again, I'm not an overly sensitive, whiney, PC kind of person.

Best quote so far today. Long live the drunken leprechaun!

[wingtip78]

Back at Base X....our Chief's Group actually polled the local native American tribes to see how they felt about the Chief's Group using native American images and items...

Everyone of them said "yes, we have a problem with that"

One of them actually gave a fairly lucid explanation...at least in my mind...which changed my opinion on the matter...it went something like this:

"The position and image of the Chief is not just one of leadership for us, but it has a religious and spiritual role. This is why we are offended by not just the USAF Chief's Group, but the use of those images with sports teams..." It would be sort of like having having your top rank identified as the "AF Christ"...or having the New York Jesus' baseball team... While we understand you feel you are honoring our tradition and do not intend to offend, we find it offensive and that it denigrates our traditions."

I no longer support the use of Native American imagery in association with the Chief's Group.

What about San Diego "Padres", New Orleans "Saints", and LA "Angels"?

[Measure Man]

And before we veer too far off-topic, has anyone heard if Chief McKinley will be replaced, or will he be allowed to serve out his term before retiring?

There was a message that he is NOT retiring.

[Measure Man]

What about San Diego "Padres", New Orleans "Saints", and LA "Angels"?

I dunno...apparently no christians complain about those. Maybe they would if we changed our ranks to "Christ"

I didn't make up the story...it made some sense to me for the first time why someone would be offended.

I'm just sayin...

[TJMAC77SP]

I dunno...apparently no christians complain about those. Maybe they would if we changed our ranks to "Christ"

I didn't make up the story...it made some sense to me for the first time why someone would be offended.

I'm just sayin...

Of course there is the possibility that some groups are just too thin skinned......................

[ChaplainC]

I dunno...apparently no christians complain about those. Maybe they would if we changed our ranks to "Christ"

I didn't make up the story...it made some sense to me for the first time why someone would be offended.

I'm just sayin...

No, it would be nothing like calling the rank "Christ", and that is, no offense, a poor comparison. What is would be like is like having a rank of Priest, or minister. Native Americans did NOT worship the Chief of the tribe, nor think him deity. The Chief may have been a religious leader, but that is all.

[BadHairCut]

There was a message that he is NOT retiring.


Of course, the new boss has not settled in yet. He may very well make some personnel changes.

[Measure Man]

No, it would be nothing like calling the rank "Christ", and that is, no offense, a poor comparison. What is would be like is like having a rank of Priest, or minister. Native Americans did NOT worship the Chief of the tribe, nor think him deity. The Chief may have been a religious leader, but that is all.

...but I think the point is...you would find that offensive, even if the group was trying to "honor your tradition"

So, you can see how it can make sense that when Group X thinks they are honoring Tradition Y...Group Y may still find that offensive.

No analogy is going to be spot-on, because their religion is different than yours...apparently they hold Chiefs in more reverence than we do Ministers. I'm not saying I understand the Native American experience because there is no way I could...all I'm saying is that I can see how they could be offended by us using their images...before that explanation I didn't grasp it, now I do...

Doesn't really matter whether it is a deity or a religious leader...or whatever...the point is they found offense by it...and that offense appears reasonable to me

[Calmo70]

I retired as a Chief in 1998 (before the issue came up about Native American Heritage). Some of my retirement gifts included framed American Indian Chief's posters, a Chief's head dress, a statue of an American Indian Chief, etc. etc.

When I made Chief and was inducted - I received my Chief's Coin (with an imprint of an American Indian Chief).

Oh -by the way - the secret Chief's handshake - Oh Yea, I can't tell you about that one.

Anyway - suffice it to say, I took the link to the American Indian Heritage as an honor. I thought the issue was just a bunch of political correctness that got blown out of porportion.

[Measure Man]

I retired as a Chief in 1998 (before the issue came up about Native American Heritage). Some of my retirement gifts included framed American Indian Chief's posters, a Chief's head dress, a statue of an American Indian Chief, etc. etc.

When I made Chief and was inducted - I received my Chief's Coin (with an imprint of an American Indian Chief).

Oh -by the way - the secret Chief's handshake - Oh Yea, I can't tell you about that one.

Anyway - suffice it to say, I took the link to the American Indian Heritage as an honor. I thought the issue was just a bunch of political correctness that got blown out of porportion.

I already know the handshake...

I was inducted sort of just after the big controversy...I was still presented a Chief's bust and have a statue...but we didn't do the headdress...or I guess some prior Group's would have a big teepee on stage and simulate smoke signals or smoking a war pipe or something...I dunno...that would be poor taste if you ask me.

[TJMAC77SP]

I have never heard of any use of Native American symbolgy with Chief Master Sergeants other than the headdress and bust/photo (which was usually of Sitting Bull). Of course every base tends to outdo one another so who knows how far the silly ritual went.

[ChaplainC]

...but I think the point is...you would find that offensive, even if the group was trying to "honor your tradition"

So, you can see how it can make sense that when Group X thinks they are honoring Tradition Y...Group Y may still find that offensive.

Doesn't really matter whether it is a deity or a religious leader...or whatever...the point is they found offense by it...and that offense appears reasonable to me

The point to me is that some people are way overboard on the PC crap. I think that if someone called the rank Mathew Mark Luke or John then any Christians would just be getting their cheap panties in a bunch if they were offended by that. Same thing here. If it were Christ then yes, I see it, Native Americans speak f a great white god who came to visit them, a deity, and this would be offensive and I understand that, but this crap about Chief is just that, crap, as far as I am concerned. Over PC nonsense.

Some of the headdress and stuff like that, yes, that in and of itself is insulting to the heritage of these proud people, and I agree with TJ that it is in poor taste, and people could stand to be corrected on things like that.




Anyway - suffice it to say, I took the link to the American Indian Heritage as an honor. I thought the issue was just a bunch of political correctness that got blown out of porportion.

This is how I have always seen it. It is taken as an honor, and should be seen that way.


I can see why others might feel the way MM has mentioned, but I think that it is mostly making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Right or wrong, that is my $.02

Blessings

[MACHINE666]

I'm still angry at Chief Benken for pushing the whole tattoo/piercing policy thing back in 1997 time frame. If am not mistaken that was one of his key agenda items to push on us enlisted, and remember him coming specifically to Osan and speaking about that very topic. I've worked with phenomenal NCOs who resemble tattooed truckers out of uniform, yet nobody cares what you look like when the mission gets done and it's time to go home. Thankfully things have eased up, considering a former girlfriend of mine-turn PME instructor has more tatts than the guys she dates. Once I get out of the military, it's sleeve tattoos, long hair, and a Harley for me.

[CrustySMSgt]

I'm still angry at Chief Benken for pushing the whole tattoo/piercing policy thing back in 1997 time frame. If am not mistaken that was one of his key agenda items to push on us enlisted, and remember him coming specifically to Osan and speaking about that very topic. I've worked with phenomenal NCOs who resemble tattooed truckers out of uniform, yet nobody cares what you look like when the mission gets done and it's time to go home. Thankfully things have eased up, considering a former girlfriend of mine-turn PME instructor has more tatts than the guys she dates. Once I get out of the military, it's sleeve tattoos, long hair, and a Harley for me.


I love tatts... I've got 7 and am certainly not done... but I'm not sure where "the line" oughta be... I can see where sleeves aren't the most proffesional looking... which was only an issue in SS blues, the good old cut-off SS fatigues (those were the good ol' days... lol)... but now with us wearing PT uniforms, we now have issues with arms & legs... so while I'm certainly supportive of folks who want to get tatts... but gotta admit it isn't that great looking in uniform... so what compromise can be made? I think what we have is close... but could be tweaked... but it is a tough call, given how popular tatts are now... should you be allowed to get them on your neck? Hands? I don't think so...

[sigecaps]

I love tatts... I've got 7 and am certainly not done... but I'm not sure where "the line" oughta be... I can see where sleeves aren't the most proffesional looking... which was only an issue in SS blues, the good old cut-off SS fatigues (those were the good ol' days... lol)... but now with us wearing PT uniforms, we now have issues with arms & legs... so while I'm certainly supportive of folks who want to get tatts... but gotta admit it isn't that great looking in uniform... so what compromise can be made? I think what we have is close... but could be tweaked... but it is a tough call, given how popular tatts are now... should you be allowed to get them on your neck? Hands? I don't think so...

Just to clarify, sleeves are legal so long as they are not exposed correct?

One way you could get around that is wearing long-sleeve undershirts which are legal as far as I know, albeit you may be suffering come Summer time.

[CrustySMSgt]

Just to clarify, sleeves are legal so long as they are not exposed correct?

One way you could get around that is wearing long-sleeve undershirts which are legal as far as I know, albeit you may be suffering come Summer time.

Yes... but tatt rules apply in PT uniform also... so until they come out with a long-sleeved shirt, you're stuck wearing the jacket (and/or pants, depending on what you have on your legs)! :eek:

[sigecaps]

Yes... but tatt rules apply in PT uniform also... so until they come out with a long-sleeved shirt, you're stuck wearing the jacket (and/or pants, depending on what you have on your legs)! :eek:

But I think it's legal to wear long sleeve underarmor type material under your PT shirt and shorts. Or at least I've seen people do this to get around the tatt rules at PT.

[CrustySMSgt]

But I think it's legal to wear long sleeve underarmor type material under your PT shirt and shorts. Or at least I've seen people do this to get around the tatt rules at PT.

That would be another AOR/Command specific restriction issue... in Korea, you can only wear long sleeved understuff or "leggings" when it is cold (don't remember the specific guidance... but I think it was date specific).

CC's can dictate specific uniforms for "formal" PT... which would be a problem... not sure how the issue would be handled if you AHD to wear something long sleeved or be out of regs... I guess they'd have to suck it up and let you do it... or let you sit out. That is where you run into the conflict where having them is interfering with your military service commitment...

[VFFSSGT]

I think I will take my troops to the chow hall tomorrow!

I think we have more important things to worry about in the Air Force; like keeping our planes in the air, keeping our weapons on our vehicles, and stop losing nukes. If you are more concerned with the lingo use in the Air Force than getting the job done and done right you need to quietly depart this Air Force!

[10Man]

Yeah,
I too see troops as nothing but a positive term. I refer to my troops as...troops. HUA is an acronym for the used by the Army: Heard, Understood, Acknowledged.
A Little story, On my last deployment a services airman tried to "correct" me. I was at the Rec Center in my PT gear, just completeing a Morale call to my wife, I was at the counter getting my ID card from the A1C and saw one of my friends at the same counter. I told him I was going to the chow hall and to meet me there, the A1C said "Sir, it's the DFAC!"
I replied no, its a place that serves chow, it's an assembly area or hall" So I call it Chow Hall and will continue to do so. I also told him, that DFAC makes no sense,. I asked him if he knew what DFAC stood for, he gave me a blank look. (Class was now in session) I told him research his facts in the future before he tries to correct someone, especially when they have 3 times as many stripes! I lastly told him I have accumulated more deployment time than he has TAFMS. I laughed and shook my head and proceeded to the Chow Hall. My friend laughed and said, "Man I knew you were about to dial in on him!", as we walked out of the Rec Center.

[AimForCenterMass]

Yeah,
I too see troops as nothing but a positive term. I refer to my troops as...troops. HUA is an acronym for the used by the Army: Heard, Understood, Acknowledged.
A Little story, On my last deployment a services airman tried to "correct" me. I was at the Rec Center in my PT gear, just completeing a Morale call to my wife, I was at the counter getting my ID card from the A1C and saw one of my friends at the same counter. I told him I was going to the chow hall and to meet me there, the A1C said "Sir, it's the DFAC!"
I replied no, its a place that serves chow, it's an assembly area or hall" So I call it Chow Hall and will continue to do so. I also told him, that DFAC makes no sense,. I asked him if he knew what DFAC stood for, he gave me a blank look. (Class was now in session) I told him research his facts in the future before he tries to correct someone, especially when they have 3 times as many stripes! I lastly told him I have accumulated more deployment time than he has TAFMS. I laughed and shook my head and proceeded to the Chow Hall. My friend laughed and said, "Man I knew you were about to dial in on him!", as we walked out of the Rec Center.


I don't see any problem with correcting someone, but a lot of the stuff you said had no relevance to your argument. Simply having more stripes or having time under your belt doesn't make you right on all issues. I'm sure there are retards on this forum who have several years on nearly everyone on the board, but that doesn't automatically mean "scoreboard" in a debate.

Technically, the A1C was correct in referring to the dining facility as "DFAC", whether or not you had more stripes and time deployed.

[VFFSSGT]

I don't see any problem with correcting someone, but a lot of the stuff you said had no relevance to your argument. Simply having more stripes or having time under your belt doesn't make you right on all issues. I'm sure there are retards on this forum who have several years on nearly everyone on the board, but that doesn't automatically mean "scoreboard" in a debate.

Technically, the A1C was correct in referring to the dining facility as "DFAC", whether or not you had more stripes and time deployed.

Technically? How is the A1C technically correct? Please enlighten me....

And an Airmen has no business correcting an NCO when he does not even know what the acronym stands for.

[AimForCenterMass]

Technically? How is the A1C technically correct? Please enlighten me....

techni·cal·ly
adv.
5. According to principle; formal rather than practical

The previously-furnished definition will form the basis of the word "technically".

In all practicality, the DFAC can be called many things such as "dining facility", "chow hall", "mess room", or "cookhouse". However, formally, the Air Force likes to refer to any place in which people eat as DFAC.

This is how the word "technically" applies.

Now, let's determine if the word "correct" has any fallacy in the phrase.

cor·rect (k-rkt)
adj.
1. Free from error or fault; true or accurate.
2. Conforming to standards:

Considering the Air Force leadership prefers to use the term "DFAC", you'll have a hard time proving the inaccuracy of the term "correct" with regards to the name "DFAC".

So, I'll break it down for you in a simple format:
"A1C" is the subject.
"Technically" is the adverb used to describe...
"was", which is the verb, and...
"correct" is the adjective which describes the A1C.

A1C + was + technically + correct = True statement
subject verb adverb adjective

That's it. Nothing I said was factually incorrect. What part of that sentence was untrue? If any part is untrue, you MUST provide solid evidence to back up your assertion.


And an Airmen has no business correcting an NCO when he does not even know what the acronym stands for.

I'm requesting you articulate the reasoning behind this logic.

[CrustySMSgt]

Technically, the A1C was correct in referring to the dining facility as "DFAC", whether or not you had more stripes and time deployed.

I don't see rank mentioned anwhere in his response... :confused:

[Shrike]

I don't see rank mentioned anwhere in his response... :confused:

See this post. (http://www.militarytimes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=117616&postcount=68)

[CrustySMSgt]

I don't see rank mentioned anwhere in his response... :confused:

My bad... I missed the "3 times as many stripes" part.

[TJMAC77SP]

Ok guys, let’s keep things in perspective. Chow hall vs. DFAC !?!?! Jesus Christ. I think this issue is as full of shyte now as I did when I first heard it, only it wasn’t DFAC it was something else. That is one big problem the AF has. We talk a lot of smack about tradition but we never leave anything alone long enough to actually develop tradition. You can’t just SAY something has tradition. Traditional terms are a fact of life in the military and I don’t care who is currently wearing the insignia of the CMSAF or CSAF, they will continue to be used.

Several years ago I sent a troop over to the chow hall to get some coffee grounds for a field exercise. The airman came back and informed me that they wouldn’t give me grounds but only brewed coffee. I called over and asked for the NCOIC. Well it happens that the NCOIC had just made MSgt and been appointed to the position so when he got on the phone, recognizing his name I congratulated him on his promotion and for being ‘put in charge of the Chow Hall’. He corrected me that is called the Dining Facility or more accurately the Aerospace Dining Facility (see they change the silly name all the time). I chuckled and said, “Fine but let me ask you a question, when you dial 911 who are you calling?” There was a very long pause and a stutter and then he said very formally “the Security Police” (I told you this was several years ago). I chuckled and told him that we really didn’t mind being called cops as long as we got our coffee grounds and could he please arrange to let my troop have some. He did and it is still called a Chow Hall.

[CrustySMSgt]

Ok guys, let’s keep things in perspective. Chow hall vs. DFAC !?!?! Jesus Christ. I think this issue is as full of shyte now as I did when I first heard it, only it wasn’t DFAC it was something else. That is one big problem the AF has. We talk a lot of smack about tradition but we never leave anything alone long enough to actually develop tradition. You can’t just SAY something has tradition. Traditional terms are a fact of life in the military and I don’t care who is currently wearing the insignia of the CMSAF or CSAF, they will continue to be used.

Several years ago I sent a troop over to the chow hall to get some coffee grounds for a field exercise. The airman came back and informed me that they wouldn’t give me grounds but only brewed coffee. I called over and asked for the NCOIC. Well it happens that the NCOIC had just made MSgt and been appointed to the position so when he got on the phone, recognizing his name I congratulated him on his promotion and for being ‘put in charge of the Chow Hall’. He corrected me that is called the Dining Facility or more accurately the Aerospace Dining Facility (see they change the silly name all the time). I chuckled and said, “Fine but let me ask you a question, when you dial 911 who are you calling?” There was a very long pause and a stutter and then he said very formally “the Security Police” (I told you this was several years ago). I chuckled and told him that we really didn’t mind being called cops as long as we got our coffee grounds and could he please arrange to let my troop have some. He did and it is still called a Chow Hall.


I gave up laughing at the Dining FACility BS...

Your story reminds me of my "piss the chow hall guy off" story... I was a smart-ass A1C working mids in the WSA and was on the patrol that went to pick up chow for those stuck on post. I walk into the back of the chow hall and told the TSgt working I was there to pick up the "box nasties." Needless to say he didn't see the humor in that... and gave me the "we work hard to make these..." speech. Unfortunatly his speech was lost on me... as I was one of the punk-ass Airman that drive me nuts today... :D

[Rastaman]

"Bag nasty" is verboten now?!? Are you kidding me?? What will the PC Police come up with next?!?

[Shrike]

"Bag nasty" is verboten now?!? Are you kidding me?? What will the PC Police come up with next?!?

Um, "PC Police" isn't the preferred nomenclature. It's "Arrogant-American Fairness Enforcer".


;)

[Rastaman]

I will take your word for it. HAHAHA! Thanks for the heads up!

[Rev Mike Large]

I must point out, gentlemen, that "The term 'Politically Correct,' co-opted by the white power elite as a tool for attacking multiculturalism, is no longer 'Politically Correct.' Preferred nomenclature: "Culturally sensitive," "Multiculturally unexceptionable," "appropriately inclusive."

--Excerpt from one of my fave and most entertaining books on my desk: The Official Politically Correct Dictionary and Handbook. (Again, no federal endorsement implied. I personally enjoy it and wanted to credit my source for oldschoolnco's sake. Not trying to get anyone to buy it.)

[10Man]

I don't see any problem with correcting someone, but a lot of the stuff you said had no relevance to your argument. Simply having more stripes or having time under your belt doesn't make you right on all issues. I'm sure there are retards on this forum who have several years on nearly everyone on the board, but that doesn't automatically mean "scoreboard" in a debate.

Technically, the A1C was correct in referring to the dining facility as "DFAC", whether or not you had more stripes and time deployed.
Hey Bud,
First of all I am not the type of person to use my stripes nor do I compensate for ignorance by throwing my stripes around to "make it my way." That is a foolish way to do business.
If I am wrong I will be the first to admit it. I have no problem with being wrong, I have been wrong many times in my career; however how can a person correct someone when that person doesn't themself know what is correct?
Simply put, before a person of lesser rank challenges an SNCO they better have their stuff in order.
So by the A1C not being able to answer my question, you saw nothing wrong with that, huh?
"Since I am throwing my rank around." according to you, DFAC is not even original, it has several other meanings I am sure that YOU are unaware of: Defense Finance & Accounting Center, Dining Facilities Administration Center. Still the Chow Hall to me.
I don't refer to other member that post as retards, there are active duty and retirees that post. Pump the brakes a little!

[Calmo70]

Me being an old fart - I have been through a lot of the names. Chow Hall, Mess Hall/Tent, Dining Hall, Dining Facility, etc.

DFAC must have come into "style" since I retired. I've been trying to figure out what exactly a DFAC is. I think the D stands for Dining and the F stands for facility - but what the heck is the AC all about??

I retired in 1998 and was still calling it the Chow Hall and never had anyone correct me. I really don't understand what all the friggin uproar is all about. By the way - I was also still a "troop" when I retired and really kind of was happy to be called that as I was a Chief and it always reminded me of a piece of advice I always took to heart. That advice? Never forget where you came from that got you to where you are.

[10Man]

Me being an old fart - I have been through a lot of the names. Chow Hall, Mess Hall/Tent, Dining Hall, Dining Facility, etc.

DFAC must have come into "style" since I retired. I've been trying to figure out what exactly a DFAC is. I think the D stands for Dining and the F stands for facility - but what the heck is the AC all about??

I retired in 1998 and was still calling it the Chow Hall and never had anyone correct me. I really don't understand what all the friggin uproar is all about. By the way - I was also still a "troop" when I retired and really kind of was happy to be called that as I was a Chief and it always reminded me of a piece of advice I always took to heart. That advice? Never forget where you came from that got you to where you are.
Yeah I hear you, Im the same way, I still refer to it as the Chow Hall, DFAC, It's a broke acronym for Dining Facility. I agree with you about the advice, I take it to heart still. Some poeple in todays Air Force have lost touch with that concept.

[Dart96]

Think of all those people with "support the troops" bumper stickers on their cars...they will all have to buy new "support the Airmen" regalia.

[slapshot74]

The CMSAF's whole job is just for polish and to make us E's feel like we have representation at the highest levels. When is the last time you've heard of any ground-breaking decision coming from that office? Do you really think any self-respecting officer cringes at the thought of the CMSAF coming down on him? His whole job is to push the agenda of the SECAF to the lower levels (enlisted). Put an enlisted wrapper on the message and voila the sheep will swallow it. This kind of "troop" issue is so he can feel as though he had some impact. In a year or so when he joins the ranks of those giving speeches at the various service related functions it will all go away. It's really like when your boss makes you stop doing something in the office because it's a "pet peeve". We'll all have a good laugh about it when we see him in the Air Force Times with the caption "CMSAF (Ret) cuts the ribbon on the newly renovated WHATEVER last month at WHEREVER AFB."

[Lefty]

I like the term "troop", and this is just another example of how people are trying to demilitarize the military. I went into the MPF a year ago on my base to get a new ID, and I took a look at all of the forms that one could fill out. I found it humorous that right below the marriage checklist was a divorce checklist. I jokingly brought one home and told my wife it was for "just in case" purposes. The other day I was there, and the checklist is now called the "new beginnings checklist". This cracked me up, but made me mad as well. This brought to mind how some schools across America are trying to use the term "deferred success" instead of failure. We shouldn't be so sensitive to everyone, and worry about how we will offend people because the world is not a very sensitive place.

[CraigIrish]

I agree with all below who say that we have other things on our plate right now that Generals and Chiefs should be worried about.

[StandardsAMust]

I think CMSAF Roy will bring the "troops" back...he's all about the JOINT Force concept.

[AF Chief]

I never had a issue with the term "Troops" and still don't.

[takthekak]

I still use the words "troop" and "senior"
I see nothing wrong with them at all.
They make a big push to be warriors and more
Army-like, but strike out words with actual
heritage and deep meanings and try and
insert the airman's creed and elimate the
Chief's logo...I am waiting to see what
the new CMSAF has on his agenda,
besides family and CDC stuff...

[Cobra5]

If people are goin to get this upset over Chow Hall vs DFAC and Troop vs Airman, they really need to quit.

[Okie]

DFAC must have come into "style" since I retired. I've been trying to figure out what exactly a DFAC is. I think the D stands for Dining and the F stands for facility - but what the heck is the AC all about??

It sounds like "defacate", which is what the food sometimes tastes like (or so I would imagine). :)

[462sam]

all this "chow hall" "DFAC" stuff reminds me of a trailer salesman i talked to once..."no this isn't a double wide trailer it's a premanufactured home".

you can put any PC name you want to on it, but we all know what it is.

[MACHINE666]

You just described me...well, except for the Chief part. Do you think they'll take me as a SMS(Sel)AF?

:D

Sad to say Shrike, I've lost all respect for Chiefs and the CMSAF selectees now. I have seen our Air Force go down the toilet because of the little things they pushed.

The whole tattoo/body piercing thing back in the 90's.

The whole 'Back to Basics' with the "Core Values" nonsense

The whole "Airman's Creed" and this new mentality that you can be dumb as dirt but so long as you can PT test you're a golden child.

The whole PT program revamp and PT uniform

The whole ban on drinking and smoking.

More Uniform Board ridiculousness than you can shake an AFI 36-2903 at.

Honestly - why don't they ever get together and ask Airman Joe Snot Nosepicker the truth? I would talk the guy's ear off if I could.

Or have we devolved as a military to where all we promote are the brainwashed sheeple?

The Air Force used to be fun. What happened?


:(

[MACHINE666]

The CMSAF's whole job is just for polish and to make us E's feel like we have representation at the highest levels. When is the last time you've heard of any ground-breaking decision coming from that office? Do you really think any self-respecting officer cringes at the thought of the CMSAF coming down on him? His whole job is to push the agenda of the SECAF to the lower levels (enlisted). Put an enlisted wrapper on the message and voila the sheep will swallow it. This kind of "troop" issue is so he can feel as though he had some impact. In a year or so when he joins the ranks of those giving speeches at the various service related functions it will all go away. It's really like when your boss makes you stop doing something in the office because it's a "pet peeve". We'll all have a good laugh about it when we see him in the Air Force Times with the caption "CMSAF (Ret) cuts the ribbon on the newly renovated WHATEVER last month at WHEREVER AFB."

I would shit my pants and slap the Baby Jesus himself if a Chief were to get something like "Caucasian Heritage Month" approved for the Air Force. That would be the largest ground-breaking decision ever, and one that is long overdue.

So to all those lurking eyes out there (you know who you are) - why not go for it I say?

[Gunner007]

I don't have a problem with trying to bring awareness to the fact that we are all Airmen... but to me it is kind of like the big stink that is made when you say "chow hall." I'm all for service pride... but I don't see anything wrong with refering to them as troops...

LOL, its a chow hall until the quality of food exceeds some downtown buffet! Since every place i have been to tastes about on par with Ryans steakhouse, they are chow halls! If they dont like the term, start actually cooking food again like they use to do! OPening a metal pan of stouffers and throwing it an oven is not cooking, its reheating!

[Gunner007]

We've had several CMSAF in a row that have been nothing more than polished politicians. I hope that Gen Schwartz goes a different route; we need a no-BS CMSAF that's not afraid to kick an ass or two if needed.

I know the last couple of CMSAFs had some serious issues to deal with - eliminating the "Chief Logo" and stamping out the scourge that is the word "troop" - but just perhaps, while the USAF was downsizing in the midst of fighting two wars, there were other things to focus on? :cool:


I came to the realization a few years back that the AF no longer wants soldiers! It wants politicans and beaureaucrats! Theres a reason those are the people you see getting CMSAF slots! They were groomed by Mcpeak era corporate BS ideals! At this point i can honestly say E-8 & E-9 are wastes of manning positions. We would be better served dividing up their pay and benefits allowances and expanding the number of lower ranking troops! At least then there would be more people to turn wrenches and actually do the work. How many sets of eyes really need to review an EPR or awards package? The guy did it or he didnt!

[Gunner007]

We need a new CMSAF that really knows what is happening on the ground. I say make all current base, wing, NAF, MAJCOM Command Chiefs, as well as any PME guys ineligible for the next CMSAF. I say let's pull a 1st Sgt, Ammo, Maint, Trans, Security Forces, Logistics/Supply, EOD, Red Horse, Combat Controller, TAC Forward Air Controller, PJ, Loadmaster, and/or any other base level Chief direct from the AOR doing a real world mission as our next CMSAF. No more political hack yes men careerist E-9's.

Definitely some operator type who hasnt traded his principals in to get what he's wearing on his sleeve! A guy who may have fired a weapon in anger would be nice!

[Gunner007]

I would shit my pants and slap the Baby Jesus himself if a Chief were to get something like "Caucasian Heritage Month" approved for the Air Force. That would be the largest ground-breaking decision ever, and one that is long overdue.

So to all those lurking eyes out there (you know who you are) - why not go for it I say?

because its so UN-PC they would be effectively signing their own retirement papers!

[MACHINE666]

Well Gunner they may as well have the brass tacks to push for something like it, considering the only place left for the CMSAF is OUT of the military.

Ha. What's funny is no matter if you kick around 20 years in the military as a Staff or make it to the very top, you're nothing more than 'planned obsolesence" like a Ford or a GM. I remember talking to a Chief last month at my TAP brief who was pissed that he had to leave the AF on account he had hit high year tenure, but still toed the company line like he was going to do another 20 or so easily.

Silly rabbit.

[Smeghead]

I would shit my pants and slap the Baby Jesus himself if a Chief were to get something like "Caucasian Heritage Month" approved for the Air Force. That would be the largest ground-breaking decision ever, and one that is long overdue.

So to all those lurking eyes out there (you know who you are) - why not go for it I say?

I asked MEO at my last base where my European American heritage month was. Apparently it's October. As in Oktoberfest? Talk about stereotyping, like all Europeans like to drink. Oh, wait a minute ...

:D

[MACHINE666]

Well Smeg we have made some of the world's best beers....:D

But sadly we get stories about the Tuskegee Airman and Malcolm X shoved down our throats while the contributions of Goethe, Franklin and Twain become forgotten by the day practically.

In a complete 360 I'd like to see them honor such icons like Idi Amin for African Heritage Month and Pol Pot for Asian Heritage Month as well.....I mean they both touched so many lives within our time, yet don't recieve the credit they deserve!

:D :D :D :D :D

[MADAMESINCERE]

Well Smeg we have made some of the world's best beers....:D

But sadly we get stories about the Tuskegee Airman and Malcolm X shoved down our throats while the contributions of Goethe, Franklin and Twain become forgotten by the day practically.

In a complete 360 I'd like to see them honor such icons like Idi Amin for African Heritage Month and Pol Pot for Asian Heritage Month as well.....I mean they both touched so many lives within our time, yet don't recieve the credit they deserve!

:D :D :D :D :D

Hitler would be a good honor for caucasian month then...

[BigT2002]

I asked MEO at my last base where my European American heritage month was. Apparently it's October. As in Oktoberfest? Talk about stereotyping, like all Europeans like to drink. Oh, wait a minute ...

:D

Except it starts in September not October ;)

[MACHINE666]

Hitler would be a good honor for caucasian month then...

Hitler was an amature compared to Josef Stalin. I think 'Uncle Joe's' reign of tyranny and oppression on the masses far outweighs anything Hitler could do at the time, and up to an estimated 60 million people died as a result of his doings (see most recent Wikipedia entry). He gets my vote for Caucasian Month's poster boy of all time.