'Don't call me shipmate!'

[CommunityEditor]

In a recent article in Navy Times, sailors sound off on "shipmate" -- a term that to many has come to mean "screw-up." Talk of heritage and tradition is taking a back seat as some compare the word’s current usage to an insult. Who's to blame? How can the Navy rescue "shipmate"? Or should the term just be sunk?

[Smeghead]

In the AF we have the same deragotory connotation with Airmen, and from reading here it seems the Marine Corps is having similiar problems with the term Devil Dog. All 3 relate to the same root ... it always come down from a higher rank and always preceeds an ass-chewing (or that's how it perceived.) Maybe if we could use our respective terms to address people of higher rank, we could redeem them.

[Glowworm]

In all honesty, this is one of the reasons I left the Navy. I didn't join the military to be nice and cuddly. I joined to fight where I was needed. To serve for the greater cause. Not to live in a harsh environment AND work with the nuances of a corporate atmosphere. The people who get offended at being called names just need to grow a set of stones and move on. Issues such as this is what keeps the "Bags of Poo" in and raising the turnover rate of those who are competent...

[ITComputerSide]

I heard the word shipmate used a good thing one time in my Naval career. When I finished Battle Stations in Great Lakes and they gave us our Navy ball caps and said we are proud to call you our "shipmates". Seven years later in my career I have heard the word shipmate thousands of times and have used it hundreds of times myself but every time I have either heard or said shipmate it is always in a negative way..."shipmate..you know your not supposed to be in utilities in the store right"; "shipmate...why the hell are you late for watch", we have all heard these examples. The Navy is unique in the way that everyone is called Petty Officer for E-4 through E-6, and you dont know what to call anyone without a crow because they could be Airman, Fireman, Seaman, or whatever else. We dont get unique until we hit Chief, Senior, or Master Chief. In the other services if someone messes up they call them Corporal, or Seargent, or whatever their rank is. In the Navy we just stick with "ShipMate" because we grow up in the Navy and learn to use it as a way to call people out in a negative way. Before any other word besides "ShipMate" comes out of another sailors mouth you know you have been busted for something or that someone else is about to get reemed. I doubt this word will ever get back to being used as it was intended.

[MPLisa]

Wait a second, what it really sounds like is that people are mad because they get bawled out - and the word "shipmate" is integral to the bawling out. Let me tell you, as someone who was both enlisted and officer, I can honestly say that I deserved my butt chewings and never took offense (despite being mad as hell at the time). Never once did I negatively associate "shipmate" with a counseling session. I think the complainents herein are just nothing more than continued Gen-X cupcakery who believe they should get preferential treatment and never-ever get disciplined.

I get tired of this modern-day inclusive philosophy that promotes giving a trophy to every woefully undeserving 5 year old on the T-Ball team, just so they don't feel bad. (This is analogous to giving medals to everyone just because)

[mmenza]

Without service bashing: this is very AirForce'ish. My Skipper uses shipmate, my Chief uses shipmate, we all use shipmate and no one is offended. It is Naval Tradition and if someone is thin skinned about its use or feels it is derogatory, then maybe they are too sensitive to be in a combat organization. The Naval Forces are a combat organization tasked with winning the war and completing the mission. This feeling of being offended by the term shipmate is indicitive of our soft society we live in where everyone is offended by everything. Lets keep this out of our Navy and keep to tradition.

[Smeghead]

Without service bashing: this is very AirForce'ish.

I wouldn't appear so ... http://www.militarytimes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1564517

[CrustySMSgt]

Without service bashing: this is very AirForce'ish. My Skipper uses shipmate, my Chief uses shipmate, we all use shipmate and no one is offended. It is Naval Tradition and if someone is thin skinned about its use or feels it is derogatory, then maybe they are too sensitive to be in a combat organization. The Naval Forces are a combat organization tasked with winning the war and completing the mission. This feeling of being offended by the term shipmate is indicitive of our soft society we live in where everyone is offended by everything. Lets keep this out of our Navy and keep to tradition.

son of a... it's on now! :D

So when I held the door open for an old-timer at the post office on base the other day, and he said, "thanks shipmate!" I should have socked him in the eye? Damn... wish I had read this earlier! :tongue:

This & the Devil Dog issue is sad... taking something that used to instill pride and turning it negative... kind of like "yes dear" with the wife... should mean something good, but we all know what it really means... lol

[USMC_8156]

[QUOTE=CrustySMSgt;119321
So when I held the door open for an old-timer at the post office on base the other day, and he said, "thanks shipmate!" I should have socked him in the eye? Damn... wish I had read this earlier! :tongue:
[/QUOTE]


Hahaha, you should turn that into a cartoon. "That's Senior Master Sergeant, bitch"

[NVYCOP]

In all honesty, this is one of the reasons I left the Navy. I didn't join the military to be nice and cuddly. I joined to fight where I was needed. To serve for the greater cause. Not to live in a harsh environment AND work with the nuances of a corporate atmosphere. The people who get offended at being called names just need to grow a set of stones and move on. Issues such as this is what keeps the "Bags of Poo" in and raising the turnover rate of those who are competent...

I agree! I'n my experience, the belly-aching comes from the Sailors who are dirtbags. If you're doing your job, then you wouldn't have a problem with "Shipmate" because you wouldn't be getting your ass chewed. Life's tough, it's tougher if you're stupid!

[ringjamesa]

Doesn't everyone do that when they are a little peeved by something? Drop and give me 20 Soldier/Straighten up there Marine/Sailor you are out of line/Airman you better straighten up! Whoopie! You have to call them something when they mess up and sometimes it is easier to just call them by a general catch-all term as opposed to rank and last name.
To the individual that said it was "AirForceish," It seems that the only people without a thread devoted to complaining about general terms being used to call somone out is the AF and the Army.... So maybe it is a Navy thing since there are 2 threads that fall under the Department of the Navy-Shipmate and Devil Dog.

[Lifeafter40]

Doesn't everyone do that when they are a little peeved by something? Drop and give me 20 Soldier/Straighten up there Marine/Sailor you are out of line/Airman you better straighten up! Whoopie! You have to call them something when they mess up and sometimes it is easier to just call them by a general catch-all term as opposed to rank and last name.
To the individual that said it was "AirForceish," It seems that the only people without a thread devoted to complaining about general terms being used to call someone out is the AF and the Army.... So maybe it is a Navy thing since there are 2 threads that fall under the Department of the Navy-Shipmate and Devil Dog.

I agree. I couldn't count the number of times I heard, "at ease, Soldier!" when in the Army... the negative aspect is not in being called "Soldier" but in the act that required being called down in the first place... does this mean that I should be able to go around calling officers, Soldier? NO. It is pretty well established that no matter how you are addressed by a higher ranking individual, you address them with proper military fashion. Just because My Commander calls me by first name on occasion, during conversation, does not give me the right to call HIM/HER by their first name. This does not attach any negative connotation to the term Soldier...unless the person being corrected wishes to project the wrongfulness of their own action to it.

[Docbuck]

Maybe they should start issuing straws to everyone and RTC so that they can suck it up. Maybe if the young sailors weren’t screwing up all the time you would not have to hear or be called shipmate as much. Deck plate leadership can only do so much for these whiney pre-madonna kids that are coming into the military these days. Put out or get out.

[SUBMARINE SAILOR]

I was shocked to see that some people were offended by the word SHIPMATE. It was always a good thing to be considered a SHIPMATE, it meant that you were good enough to be one of the crew. If your boss was chewing you out and called you by your last name, would that mean that from that time on you would be offended by anyone using your name. SHIPMATE is good, mistakes are to be corrected, getting chewed out is regrettable. Let's stick with Navy tradition.

[NavLPO]

Maybe they should start issuing straws to everyone and RTC so that they can suck it up. Maybe if the young sailors weren’t screwing up all the time you would not have to hear or be called shipmate as much. Deck plate leadership can only do so much for these whiney pre-madonna kids that are coming into the military these days. Put out or get out.

I couldnt agree more. It sounds to me like the majority of the complaints in this forum are from sailors or ex-sailors that put themselves in a negative position ultimately giving them a negative impression of the shipmate term. During the course of my naval career I have used the term in many ways, most of them positive. I truly believe if the term is used in a positive manner with junior enlisted, specifically E-1 through E-3, it can inspire motivation and a sense of pride in those sailors and especially when it comes from Senior Enlisted.

[Realityczech]

Shipmate is supposed to be a positive term. It's now used as a way of saying "You're so worthless, I won't even bother to read your nametape." Say what you will about sailors putting themselves in negative positions, but I'm consistently high rated performer, and I still get my butt chewed every so often. If shipmate is still positive, than why do I only ever hear Chaps and the Skipper using it that way?

Bottom line, Petty Officer/Seaman X, not that hard to say. You want shipmate to be positive? Use it that way. If I screw up, call me by rank and name.

[GMC(SW)]

You can call me shipmate anytime. Most of us understand the true meaning.

[Eaglefrq]

I'll agree- I actually find its the E-7s and above that have used the term in ONLY negative ways. Everytime I've been called "shipmate", it was followed by a corrective action. Not very good role models, shipmates.

As a Chief, I have heard the term "shipmate" used both positively and negatively by all paygrades from Officer to Junior Enlisted. Claiming that "shipmate" is now a negative term, is the same as saying that a counseling sheet, is only used to document discrepancies.

If the only time "shipmate" was used and it was followed by a corrective action then apparently you gave the impression that you were doing something wrong. So, you weren't being a very good role model to those junior to you and this was pointed out by someone Senior to you and now your feelings are hurt.

If you have never used "shipmate" in a positive manner or given a counseling sheet in a positive format then you are just as much to blame.

[CommunityEditor]

Editorial: Save our ‘shipmate’ (http://www.navytimes.com/community/opinion/navy_editorial_shipmate_080408/)


They say that one “oh crap” erases a thousand “attaboys.”

The same is true for “shipmate.”

A centuries-old term of brotherhood and belonging, “shipmate” has more recently taken on a negative tone. Too many Navy leaders have taken to using it as a preface to a butt-chewing. As in, “Hey, shipmate, you call this rack clean?”

The result: To many junior sailors, “shipmate” is becoming synonymous with “screw-up.”

But it doesn’t have to be this way.

Navy leaders, from petty officers and chiefs to division officers, commanders and even the big brass, can save the term, but only if they change the way they use it.

It’s not a question of balance, but one of meaning. Address sailors as “shipmate” in a positive context, and the term will remain one of belonging. “Good morning, shipmate.” “How’s the chow, shipmate?” “Welcome aboard, shipmate.”

When it comes to corrective action, it’s probably best not to be so informal, anyway. Use the sailor’s rank or rate. Remind him of where he stands in the pecking order. Hold him accountable. “BM3, this space is unsat,” for example, underscores that as a petty officer third class, he ought to know better. It sets expectations. If you don’t know the sailor’s rating, “seaman” or “petty officer” will do.

And no, this won’t turn those rates and ranks into four-letter words. They are formal titles; shipmate is just a familiar term.

Some 43,000 recruits go through boot camp every year. That’s 43,000 chances to save “shipmate.” In just a few years, the negative stigma that’s infiltrated the fleet can be stamped out and forgotten.

Some traditions deserve to go. Being called “shipmate” isn’t one of them.

[King Bee]

Shipmate is supposed to be a positive term. It's now used as a way of saying "You're so worthless, I won't even bother to read your nametape." You want shipmate to be positive? Use it that way. If I screw up, call me by rank and name.

Percisely the point. It has nothing to do with an adversion to being corrected. It has everything to do with putting a negative conotation on a positive term.

At my command It's becoming so ingrained as a negative it's predictable. If I pick up the handset and hear "Shipmate, it's senior." I know it's going to be followed by a yelling and screaming. If I pick up the phone and hear "(Rate and name), it's senior." I know there's no problems.

If I get an email from someone of higher rank that starts out with "Shipmate" it's hard to tell if it's condescending or not, considering how badly the term has been run through the mud. When we brought it up at the first class meeting, the concensus was: Shipmate=Shipwreck=Dirtbag. That is how the CPO mess uses it, thus it is deemed.

The problem is how to save it.

IMHO, there will have to be a paradigm shift at the khaki level, otherwise, I'll be going around calling people Shipmates and they'll be wondering what they did to piss me off. I personally think the term is redeemable, but it'll be up to the Chief's mess to make it work.

[theapprentice]

mmenza, don't make me drop my cappicinno, leave my four star hotel, and go AFSO21 on your ass! AirForcish indeed... Now where's my nuclear weapons.... (Too soon?)

[FC1]

First, let me say upfront, those who have posted on here about people being "too sensitive" or "needing to grow a pair" appear to lack an essential trait of leadership - the ability to LISTEN. Regardless of whether you personally believe the term is positive or negative, you must accept that it has grown to be perceived as having a negative connotation. This is not a matter of my own personal opinion, this is an empirical fact. The research for this article included a survey that found that a majority of sailors share this perception.

It does not mean that they are "airforcish" it means that over years of hearing the word, those sailors developed a Pavlovian response to the term. That is a result of how the word is used, not who is on the receiving end. To put it another way, if every time I rang a bell I immediately handed you a twenty dollar bill, any rational person would come to view the bell as a positive thing. If I instead hit you in the head with a baseball bat after each time I rang the bell, that person would eventually see the bell ringing as a negative thing. This is basic psychology.

When this term is first used in basic training, it is used after the individual has overcome adversity as an acknowledgment that the individual is now "in". They are part of the family, the brotherhood of sailors bound by centuries of tradition, blood, sweat, and tears. As such, it takes on a meaning akin to "brother". Unfortunately, the RDC's can only shape a recruits mind for the first couple of months. When this is replaced by two years of hearing the term in a negative light, it is as if the individual is reprogrammed. If the goal is to keep the term positive, you must not use it in negative fashion. This is not to say that dirtbags should not be chewed out, this means you shouldn't use a term that is supposedly positive to do it. The key is in how you use the word.

To that end, I would argue that the term "Shipmate" should NEVER be used as a proper noun in negative communication. In this context, I may say that Seaman Smith is "a shipmate" or "my shipmate" but never that SN Smith IS "Shipmate". Appropriate positive uses are when the individual is unfamiliar, when you are addressing a group, when the word is used in a traditional context, or when the context is specifically positive.

When addressing an unfamiliar person the term is appropriate in the more formal context of a greeting between those who don't know each other such as when a new person checks aboard. In the use "welcome aboard Shipmate" it will likely be perceived to mean something like "welcome brother, I recognize you as part of the group". Once the familiar relationship exists, or should exist, the bond has already been acknowledged and the individual should be addressed as an individual WITHIN the group. Failure to do so tells the individual that you don't feel they are worth knowing. That sort of approach, while clearly insensitive and not "touchy feely", is also not effective leadership. Those who feel that they are too "tough" to be a good leader don't belong in the Navy because ineffective leadership is inefficient and counterproductive.

The term is also appropriate when addressing groups such as when a command leader steps up at an all hands call and says, "Good afternoon, Shipmates." Since the term is not directed at an individual, the context does not require acknowledgment of any one person. In this context, it is akin to saying "Hello, Everybody" or "Hello, Brothers". It is not intended to be personal, so the recipients don't take offense to the impersonal way the term is used.

I specify "proper noun" here because as stated above when the term is used as a common noun such as "my shipmates" or "a shipmate", it does not have to be personal because it does not identify a specific individual. In this context, I believe the term still has much of its more traditional positive meaning. When I think of "getting together with old shipmates" or "helping out a shipmate" I believe that it connotes someone with whom a sailor shares the bond of service. Some that you would help without question and that you could count on to return the favor. This is a personal perception that has not been degraded and as such, I have concluded that this is an appropriate use of the term.

I refer to "traditional context" because the recent Navy Times article mentions its use in the phrase, "Shipmate, pull up a fender and come alongside," prior to a counseling session. In this context, it is appropriate because the entire sentence uses a metaphoric use of the language of the sea. When not accompanied by a sarcastic or condescending tone, this context, to me, seems to embody Navy tradition and conjures up images of wise and thoughtful anecdotes from some of the saltiest old Chiefs I've ever known.

Direct positive context could be when the word is used to precede positive feedback or when it is used as an honest term of endearment between brothers in arms who have become good friends such as "good luck shipmate, keep in touch" when a friend is transferring.

I would also argue that it is appropriate in a neutral context or when the situation is a combat, crisis, or emergency situation and there is not time to identify the individual. This is not the case when a uniform is not squared away or for other routine corrective statements. Failure to take a couple of extra seconds to identify the individual, at least by rank, is simply laziness. Juniors are expected to address unfamiliar seniors by their rank, if they can figure it out so can the leaders. We all learned rank identification in boot camp. Destroying tradition is NOT maintaining tradition, take the time and we can salvage the term.

These are my thoughts, take 'em or leave 'em. Just ask yourself... Are you part of the problem or part of the solution? If you believe that these new "whiners" and "dirtbags" need to "suck it up", you are part of the problem whether you acknowledge it or not. Learn to listen and lead or get out before you screw the Navy up even more.

[FC1]

You can call me shipmate anytime. Most of us understand the true meaning.

GMC, this is precisely why there is a problem. Your statement is a denial of the facts. While it may be true that you, and even most Chiefs, understand the "true meaning", they are not conveying that meaning to junior sailors. What they are conveying is that the meaning is negative. Just because you have come to know something to be "true" does not mean that you are teaching that "truth" to junior sailors. If the mess believes the meaning is positive, why on earth would they use it in a negative way. We certainly don't give out NAM's at punitive Captain's Mast.

[sloner10]

The problem is that the Navy as well as the other services have gotten soft. The terms shipmate and devil dog are the same as saying hey brother or sister. The Sailor or Marine who is on the receiving end is the one who interprets the meaning. All of the examples that were given was when someone was messing up or doing something wrong. What would you rather be called hey shipmate or hey dirt bag? Granted that some overuse the term only to discipline an infraction, however there are those who use it as it was meant to say hey shipmate good job or hey shipmate you might want to re-think that. With everything that is going on in the world and our Navy it seems kind of foolish to get bent around the axle over a term. It seems like those who are upset over the term shipmate might have more underlying issues.

[GMC(SW)]

GMC, this is precisely why there is a problem. Your statement is a denial of the facts. While it may be true that you, and even most Chiefs, understand the "true meaning", they are not conveying that meaning to junior sailors. What they are conveying is that the meaning is negative. Just because you have come to know something to be "true" does not mean that you are teaching that "truth" to junior sailors. If the mess believes the meaning is positive, why on earth would they use it in a negative way. We certainly don't give out NAM's at punitive Captain's Mast.

Fc1 you need to get a grip on things. I want you to re-read my comment and not take it out of context. For one, you are part of the problem by stereo typing all around you. Remember your views are through your eyes not everyone elses, so i ask you not to speak for me. alittle understanding goes a long ways shipmate.

[usnav26]

It does seem like the E-7s only use it in a negetive manner. When most of the Navy uses it in a positive manner. I think its just an out dated term.

[CPO]

Any term can be used in a negative fashion. "Shipmate - a sailor or passenger on the same ship as another." That is exactly what a Shipmate is, a fellow Sailor. There are a lot of Sailors today that have signed up for the pity party Navy and that is not the U.S. Navy. If you are behaving in a wrongful manner, or inappropriate manner then it does not matter if -- "Shipmate.....your cover is on crooked, square it away.", or "Seaman/Petty Officer....your cover is on crooked, square it away."

Get over it! It's your action(s) not the form of address that was used to get your attention. You [Generalize] probably believe that a Counseling Chit is only to document Negative behavior too.

I talked to a bunch of young Marines, there problem is that they don't know the Tradition behind "Devil Dog". During WWI the German Army gave that term to the Marines in France (Look up the specific battle). There is no greater honor than to be named by your enemy for your Exemplary Fighting Spirit.

Bottom Line. Get off the political correct bandwagon, and get back to being the best SAILOR you can be.

[Agreek]

"Shipmates, we have a few problems we need to take care of." -A brand new Ensign Divo addressing his new division at his second quarters. My division is a rather proud one; we have a lot of character and a lot of expertise. So standing in the back row, hearing our new ensign start quarters off with that statement, I knew he had just made his first mistake as a new officer. After those words everything said to the division was taken in a negative light, and the division felt like this new no nothing ensign was telling them that they were collectively screwed up. That in fact hadn’t been his intention, but the damage had already been done. After quarters, being the responsible IT2 that I am, I brought him aside and explained to him the grave error he had just made. Of course he had no idea that shipmate carried a negative tone to it and everything said associated with it. So he was rather shocked to learn that his message had been a belittling one to the division. At the next quarters he brought up that he had been told that the word might not have been the appropriate thing to say, and all around I could see the nodding heads, accepting the apology.

The stigma around the word Shipmate has come to add many bad conotations to words used with it. Whether intentional or not, doesn't really matter anymore, because the word is simply used for anything but. I have heard shipmate attempted to be used in a good way, but it always sounds awkward and thrown together, as if trying to recover the word is on some agenda. A while back, there was a little completion on redefining the word shipmate. We were interested not because we cared about the word, but rather because we wanted a good laugh. No offense intended to those who actually submitted to the competiton, but it should say something when you consider that there are more than a quarter million individuals in the navy, and less than 10,000 voted or submitted entries to that competition. That in itself is a statement. When we read the winning definition, we didn't think wow what a great new way to see the word. We thought, wow, what a brown noser. We saw it as someone writing exactly what they thought somebody wanted to read. I don't know about the navy away from where I am right now, but "Shipmate" is a 4 letter word in my shop, and if you please not to use that language around me, I would greatly appreciate it.

[Crusty]

I just came aboard... Read this thread. Just don't get it. Being called Shipmate is about the highest compliment you could give ME. And *I* often refer to friends as 'Mate...Nope. Just DON'T get it. Oh, well.....

[PS1(Ret)Hed]

I had a Chief a few years back who often used the term Shipmate....and almost always in a positive manner. And as a result, I used it in a positive manner. Mornin Shipmate....say it everyday...still do on most days, since I work for the Navy and often talk to many of my former Shipmates.

I also use another term that I learned from that same ATC...."ShipWreck" The negative version.......:D

[GMC(SW)]

I have read all of the postings and it seems the problem might be that " shipmate" needs defined and that some of our traditions are getting lost through time. So with that said i will give you my definition as seen through my experience. Shipmate is a term i use to call a fellow navy family member, it is someone i know i can depend on through the good and the bad and someone that i am proud to have met. I have always looked as the navy as family, also in my book anyone that serves this great Navy deserves the title of shipmate unless they do something terribly wrong,or they disgrace themselves and the Navy they serve.

Now i read the last thread and i am in total agreement with the term "Shipwreck" , and my defintion of that is for minor offenses, or just trying to get a smile out of someone.(which is always good)

I will leave you this on my last post to this subject, enjoy being a sailor now as it was stated"BE THE BEST SAILOR YOU CAN BE". My best and most enjoyable moments were serving with my shipmates, and i often wonder were the years have gone. i will tell you there is not a day that i dont think about being back out to sea and the shipmates that i crossed paths with during my travels. You only live once run with it hard. Stay safe.


take care, gmc(sw) ret.

[FC1]

GMC,

I completely agree with your definition. That is what shipmate SHOULD mean.
------------
It is an important word, and it's worth salvaging, let's not ruin it for the new guys. Tone and context are the keys. Not to sound too PC for you, but it will take a conscious effort on the part of the Navy's enlisted leadership to bring it back on track. That means avoiding its use in a negative way. We have to teach our sailors that the word is good if we want them to believe that it is.

If we are not willing to put forth the effort, then we must consider the term lost because right now, its considered negative by the majority of junior sailors. We must accept what is behind us and chart a course forward from there.

[MPLisa]

I still think it is the Gen-Xers doing a lot of whining in their post-entitlement little world of military reality.

[FC1]

Lisa,

Sounds like you're disappointed in the direction society as a whole is going. By the time the youth of America enlist, they have spent at least 17 years immersed in that culture. I hate to say it, but that is a battle that cannot be won from within the military. A shift in society's perception is the result of popular culture, academic thought, political movements, and a variety of other uncoordinated changes that alter the very foundation of our thought processes. Mounting a coordinated challenge to that sort of shift is very difficult, but if you wish to be a "culture warrior", social conservative, etc. there are many people trying to do just that and you may be able to make your mark in some small way. That is a different battle.

If you wish to achieve the more modest objective of saving the term "shipmate" within the confines of the social status-quo you must play by the rules of the current society. If you think you can fight the tide and change society, feel free to try. Just recognize that if you ignore the reality of the world around you when you use the word "shipmate" you do so at the risk of destroying the meaning of this valuable part of our Navy heritage.

Which battle will you fight? Saving the word or ridding the world of liberal ideals? I am more interested in salvaging the meaning of the word as that seems to be the issue raised by the article and it is something which is to a large extent within the control of our Navy leadership. If you wish to take on the whining Gen-Xers, don't bring the word "shipmate" into the fight.

FC1

[MPLisa]

I am not seeking change, change is inevitable with the progress of time. My comments were more of a broad statement on the state of things vis-a-vis that change. But I also speak from a perspective far broader and deeper than our Gen-Xer whiner friends have gained in their short, insular lives. Whether the argument is over a word (shipmate) or not, my real point is that too many of our society believe they should never be the subject of disciplinary action or negative feedback, but, rather, they should all win the trophy for being a participant on the losing T-Ball team, rather than for winning.

"We have met the enemy, and they is us"
Pogo

[King Bee]

I am not seeking change, change is inevitable with the progress of time. My comments were more of a broad statement on the state of things vis-a-vis that change. But I also speak from a perspective far broader and deeper than our Gen-Xer whiner friends have gained in their short, insular lives.

"We have met the enemy, and they is us"
Pogo


So, let me get this straight....

A little cursory research tells me that these "gen-X whiners" are those who were born between 1965 and 1980 (wikipedia-generation X).

So what you are saying is that anyone who joined the service between the mid-80's and 1999-ish is a pampered little whiner who can't handle military reality?

You're saying the same all-volunteer military generation that has fought multi-front/multi-year wars is a bunch of whiners? That's your far broader and deeper perspective?

Do you have any concept how disrespectful your off-the-cuff comments are to those of us who are serving? Do you walk through Arlington and wave your fingers at the headstones of the DS/GWOT dead and go "tut-tut" at the headstones because they were being a bunch of little whiners who just weren't cut out for service in the first place? You're saying the Sailors on the Cole were too self-absorbed to realize the mess decks were blowing up. And I guess those Sailors in the Pentagon dying in a blaze of jet fuel were probably too busy whining to get out of the way of the walls exploding around them. Maybe you helped their grieving families, like I did, at the Sheraton for the next week, but you made sure they knew their loved one was just a slacker who never would have stacked up to military standards.

Did I get it straight? That's what you were saying, right? Your "insular Generation-X whiner friends" who are currently dying overseas fighting for the greatest country in the world, your way of life, and your right to say such disrespectful things about them?

Now maybe we can get back to the topic at hand and do what Sailors of all generations do best: do whatever it takes to fix something that's broken.

[Apey]

Ouch! Smackdown. LOL.

[FC1]

I wasn't going to play semantics with generational boundaries, but now that we're there I'm going to have to agree with Lisa here... sort of. The problem IS whiny Gen-Xers.

However, as King Bee mentioned Gen-Xers stopped coming into the Navy at the turn of the millenium nearly 10 years ago. Most of the whiny Gen-Xers ARE the senior enlisted that are complaining that they shouldn't have to be careful with the way they use their words. They whine that the youth of America (Gen-Y/Millenials) are too sensitive or have too much of a sense of entitlement.

The article that started this thread isn't about whether or not junior sailors should be corrected for their deficiencies, they should be. It was about how the word "shipmate" is perceived. The fact is, the word is often used to prefix corrective statements. Junior sailors don't care what you tell them the word means, they will decide for themselves based on the context in which you use it. You can't use a word that is meant to be positive, in a negative context, and then whine about the fact that they don't perceive it in a positive way. If you do, you are lying to yourself, underestimating the intelligence of junior sailors, and then immaturely calling them names because they called you on your BS.

To those who continue to blame their subordinates, you can't control other people's thoughts and feelings but you can identify your own behaviors that cause those thoughts and feelings and change the behaviors. Quit whining and start leading. Quit trying to tell yourself that your experience makes you 'too cool for school' because you aren't.

[MPLisa]

FC1, don't be too quick to flatter yourself with self-congratulatory kudos (and quite possibly you've already submitted yourself for a MSM!!). Since you have played the "war veteran" card, I assume you are running for office somewhere? I am a war veteran also, so I feel I might speak with a little knowledge of the subject. For you to interpret my general remarks as insulting to combat KIA is rediculous, but hey, its all to make your point, right? And that said, yes, I have seen and heard a LOT of whiny veterans - I am retired and I don't think anyone owes me anything. I served, I got paid, I got educated, and I had fun, 'nuff said and no one owes me anything.

I made some general statements it is true. There are two sides of this issue: 1) Senior enlisteds who insist on using "Shipmate" with negative connotations, and (2) junior enlisted who seem to get themselves into position where the moniker is used - negatively - and they resent it. I'm not sure it really matters in the end. Having been a former junior enlisted, AND senior enlisted, I can tell you that junior sailors sometimes have a proclivity to find themselves on rocks and shoals, and it is up to good senior enlisteds to give them course corrections. Shipmate can have both negative and positive connotations. The word has lots of meanings, and would it be that different if someone referred to the sailor as "sailor" rather than "shipmate"? I think not. True, the duty falls upon leadership to lead, and lead well. And equally true, the duty lies upon the subordinate to follow, and carry out orders (check your enlistment oath, I think it talks about that). It IS the military, for cripe's sake, and it is NOT equal to the private sector. I wouldn't want it to be. As an executive now in the private sector, I often miss having senior (and junior) enlisteds around to help with frontline management.

In the end we are ALL shipmates, for better or worse. We can disagree, and maintain opposite points of view. Thank God mine is the right point of view. LOL!

[FC1]

To set the record straight, it was King Bee that played the war vet card and I'm not running for office... yet... I can barely get the wife to support the politics I do get involved with. LOL

I will agree to disagree and I appreciate your side of the argument. While mine is the more rational side (LOL) I could probably argue against it just as easily because both sides have their own valid points. To avoid beating an already tender dead horse. I'll make this my last post. Take care, Shipmates!

[MPLisa]

OK, diplomacy is the valorious conduct herein, so let's officially call it a "draw". I agree, this here horsey be plumb dead.

regards!

m:D :D

[aikiwi]

Maybe we (yeah, me, too) bristle at use of the word because when it is used in a way that preceeds reprimand or chiding "Shipmate" reminds us that 1) Our actions that elicited (deserved?) the chiding reflect on the entire "Ship" and 2) that those same actions have consequences for everyone on board.
Shipmate reminds us that in some way, either by some goofy rule about coveralls in the store or by something more serious as being late for watch, we are all connected by our actions and behaviors.

[NavyLDO]

I've been in the Navy from E-1 to Chief, then to LDO, and I have a lot of Shipmates. On my TWS page I have 130 of them as a matter of fact, all on a tab called "My Shipmates" and not one of them is offended by it. I agree with an earlier post about the Generation-X wanting to be pampered too much, given stress cards, and endless available counseling to talk about how nobody listens to you at your job. Just shut up and do your job, SHIPMATE! That's all any of us are asking of you. It takes 50% effort, 50% of the time, to outshine 80% of the people. Pull your weight and do something constructive for your country today. The end.

[medicineman8]

Shipmates. The liberal media is to blame for the sensitivity of much of today’s youth, and some of the elders. The politically correctness of today’s society is very disturbing, rewarding people for failure because no one wants to offend anyone and everyone has to be a winner. In any event, there are always winners and losers. Should we award the Super bowl Trophy, Stanly Cup or NASCAR Championship to the team with the worst record? I was once told, in apparent seriousness at the time, by one of the best Ensigns I have served with- he was a Signalman Chief before applying for a commission- in a heavy New Orleans drawl, that we could no longer call people dirtbag, it was politically incorrect, we now had to call them Earth Sacks because it was more politically correct, a kinder gentler word. We had a very good laugh about that. This is the unfortunate road I see Shipmate going. I've been in the Navy for 18 years, and have NEVER considered Shipmate to be a negative term, but a term that includes someone in a very exclusive brotherhood. If the whiny young Sailors consider Shipmate to be derogatory, then fix yourself. It is very easy to do the right thing, wear your uniform correctly, maintain your living space and especially do your job and accept responsibility when you screw up. This will decrease the implications of Shipmate being considered derogatory. For those of you that think that way, grow a thicker skin and don't expect everything to be puppy dogs and roses. If you find Shipmate to be derogatory, change it by using it in a positive manner. Those that complain that you can’t call someone senior to you Shipmate, think about this, do you call those same senior people by their first name? What is the next word to go down this road, perhaps Sailor

[RADENNIS0]

It may be a dead horse by now... but I've heard shipmate used both ways.

Generally it was a bad thing but not in the way others have described it. I'm sure everyone has heard of "Joe Navy". Joe Navy always called everyone shipmate, all of the time. Joe Navy was usually a PO1 bucking hard for anchors. It got really annoying.

Just for fun I'd walk the p-ways saying "Hello Shipmate!" to everyone I saw. I think that I was generally well liked and people would answer "F*** You" or "I thought we were friends and you talk to me like that!?"

Blame Joe Navy for that.

If you knew Joe Navy you're prolly laughing right now.

[CUSEFAN21]

Well being aviation most of my career i never liked hearing the word "shipmate" from someone say in the VP community who has never seen or been on a ship in there entire careers to me that person will never be a "shipmate". Other than that it should be used as a word of respect not for adding when your getting a chewing out

[Conster74]

Call me shipmate. Call me Petty Officer, call me Seabee, call me Shipwreck, call me Connie, call me Chapman, call me Hey You, call me Hey Stupid, call me whatever.

Just dont call me Soldier or late for chow :D

[james05_r6]

In my time in the Navy (5 years) I have come to realize that "shipmate" is almost allways a preface to something being fu**ed up. weather it be a bomb rack panel closed when it should be opened or a set of utilites that look like they were just pulled out of a sock. When you here "Shipmate......,are you allowed to be in walmart in your utilites." you know during that pause that you got caught. I firmly agree that if youre that persons cheif that is doing something wrong you should say AO3 Smith! what the hell do you call this! if you do not know theyre rate just petty officer and maybe take the time to read their name but if not oh well. How many times have I heard the term "Hey shipmate how is it going?" maybe a couple and that was by the CO or CMC never anyone who really knew me. Hell even a couple of CO's called me by my name at least, even if I was in the wrong. We are not bitching we are just stating the fact the it is not used in anyway the same manner it was concived.

[Conster74]

You know I just checked and it seems I am one of those "Generation X-ers" that everyone is bitching about.
Well NO NEED TO WORRY about ME!!!!! I am about to actually echo your sentiments and say something that you would think it was terribly uncharacteristic of me to say..... "It's TOO BAD this is the MILITARY and not BURGER KING where you can HAVE IT YOUR WAY."

Yes I too have had the pleasure of getting chewed out by a Master Chief no less, I don't remember him calling me Shipmate, he could have, I know he DID call me Petty Officer in the middle of it. No I didn't enjoy it, YES it hurt. But....! Afterward I understood he cared about me enough to stand up and say that "the train is leaving the tracks!" and have me correct what I needed to correct. He could have just throttled back, not said anything at all and watched me go down for whatever.

No, he CARED ENOUGH to pull me aside and say "Your conduct is f***ed up now fix it because if we have this conversation again there will be paperwork involved." (No, I don't know what kind of paperwork, and didn't want to find out.)

For the rest of it, I conducted myself as a Third Class and not an E4.

And I just put on E5.:eek:

"Petty Officer, Shipmate. Lunkhead, whatever." I would much rather get an earful and be able to straighten out matters at hand than have my superiors remain silent out of some mistaken notion of offending me.

"Don't call me Shipmate" PuhLEASE.:rolleyes:

[PAMICH]

I'm a Navy Chief and you are telling me , I've been doing it wrong all these years. For me, I'm proud of our Idenity. You can call me shipmate, or you can call me sailor. I prefer Chief, but if I don't know your name and I know you are a sailor, I'll probably call you shipmate. I even call our fellow Marines "shipmates". If you haven't heard the term frequently then we as a Navy are loosing our Identity.

[forcedj]

Ya know…now that I think of it…whether I was a young sailor getting chewed out by my Chief, or a Div Chief getting yelled at by my Div O or Dept Head…when they included “shipmate”…to me it made the chewing out a bit easier to take. It’s as if they’re saying “You’re my shipmate and we’re in this together. You’ve got to correct whatever you screwed up but I’m here to help you.”

Dan

[AngerMan8404]

It is a privilege to be called shipmate. If you don’t like it, get out my Navy.

[Shep]

It is a privilege to be called shipmate. If you don’t like it, get out my Navy.

I bet your a hoot at parties....

[AngerMan8404]

I bet your a hoot at parties....

Wow your good.

[sammyd]

Is this argument still going on?
Good Lord it was old 16 years ago.....
The term shipmate is not evil. It is the way it is spoken which can be.
Besides with these new 2 man apartments for crews while inport shipmate will become obsolete.
Have to argue about roommate instead.

[Yggdrasil]

I say that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Yes, "shipmate" is normally followed by letting a Sailor know that they f*cked up. And yes, when one Sailor calls his peer "shipmate," I'm one of the first to chime in and say, "Oohh, he dropped the 's-bomb'. Them's fightin' words."

As a First Class, I normally don't use "shipmate" initially when correcting a deficiency - unless they decide to get impudent, and then I use the term to establish authority. There are other words that can be used to put someone in their place - but you'll be answering to somebody if you decide to use one of them.

This whole "it's an honor to be called 'shipmate'" thing is garbage. If it really was an "honor," we'd all be allowed to call those senior to us "shipmate". But that's not the case.

These proposed solutions - like increasing the use of the term when complimenting a junior Sailor (i.e., "Outstanding job, shipmate!") isn't going to change either. Good or bad, that senior Sailor is still speaking as a person in a position of authoirty over the junior Sailor that he's talking to.

I've been in the Navy nine years, and I've had no problem with the way "shipmate" has been the whole time. I don't think someone coming in the Navy today would have a problem with the way it's being used today either - unless they start reading articles in the Navy Times telling them that the term should be abolished.

[bwheeler1313]

The military has turned soft! Me and my wife was in the navy and she crossed over to become a Army officer and i found out fast that was a mistake. They let the enlisted show disrespect and no punishment which when i was in the Navy that would have left me on the ship forever. I guess some services stay the course and others just don't care.

[Yggdrasil]

The military has turned soft!

Yeah, the military has been turning soft ever since the first Americans to join in 1775 have retired. Everyone who has joined ever since then has had to listen to the same crap.

[WeTheSheeple]

I always preferred the term "shipwreck"!

[Yggdrasil]

I always preferred the term "shipwreck"!

Like the GI Joe character?