Switching from Army to Air Force

[gmacclark]

I'm an E-6 in the army right now. I plan to get out of the army in 2010 and join the air force. My question is will I be able to keep my rank when I switch over to the air force?

[Smeghead]

Everyone I've ever seen come in prior lost a grade.

[BRUWIN]

I'm an E-6 in the army right now. I plan to get out of the army in 2010 and join the air force. My question is will I be able to keep my rank when I switch over to the air force?


Don't worry about rank...worry about the Air Force PT test. This ain't your Dad's Air Force any more.

[gmacclark]

I'm sure If I handled the army for 6 years then I will be ok for the PT test in the air force. That is the least of my worries

[Measure Man]

I'm sure If I handled the army for 6 years then I will be ok for the PT test in the air force. That is the least of my worries

Do you know for sure that you can get in the AF?

Currently the AF is only accepting a few hard-to-fill career fields for prior-service recruits...and that is VERY few.

Before you get out of the Army, make sure you can get IN the AF...it is not a guarantee for a prior service recruit.

Good luck

[Silver Fox]

Depends on your job. If it's closely related or identical to your job in the AF, you may not lose rank. If it's entirely different you could lose 1, 2 stripes... perhaps even more. If you weren't active duty, you'll definately lose rank.

Examples:
An Active Duty Marine Corps Infantryman E-5 cross trained into AF Security Forces Reserve. He retained his stripe.
A Reserve Marine Corps Infantryman E-5 cross trained into Guard Air Force Security Forces. He is an E-4.
An Active Duty Marine Corps Ammo Tech E-4 cross trained into Air Force Security Forces Reserve. He is an E-4.
A National Guard Army Tanker E-6 cross trained into Air Force Security Forces Reserve. He is an E-1.
An Active Duty Army Special Forces E-7 cross trained into Active Duty Air Force Security Forces after being out for two years, he is an E-6.
An Active Duty Army Cavalry Scout E-5 cross trained in to Active Duty Security Forces, he is an E-5.

I don't know why the tanker lost so many stripes, but I personally witnessed these so I know they are truthful. I could name many more, but I've noticed that Navy and Army personnel tend to lose one stripe compared to Marines who rarely lose a stripe.

[anyone42]

First of all,

DO NOT MENTION TO ANYONE IN THE ARMY THAT YOU ARE SWITCHING OVER BECAUSE THEY MORE LIKELY TO GIVE YOU A BAD DISCHARGE. SECOND - the only way you are going to keep your rank if active in army and switch to air force reserve is if you have a bachelors degree- even so, you will have to conduct a job interview with a squadron commander and it is up to him/her to accept you, then the recruiter will do the paper work. :D

[Wereldboom]

I don't know why the tanker lost so many stripes, but I personally witnessed these so I know they are truthful. I could name many more, but I've noticed that Navy and Army personnel tend to lose one stripe compared to Marines who rarely lose a stripe.

I'm in the Navy, and there are plenty of former Marines who lose rank when coming into the Navy. I've also seen many prior Army and Air Force personnel retain their rank when coming into the Navy. Hell, I've even seen prior Navy lose rank when coming back into the Navy.

[sigecaps]

If you have a break in service its a huge factor no matter which way you go.

[Silver Fox]

I'm in the Navy, and there are plenty of former Marines who lose rank when coming into the Navy. I've also seen many prior Army and Air Force personnel retain their rank when coming into the Navy. Hell, I've even seen prior Navy lose rank when coming back into the Navy.

I wasn't applying that to EVERYWHERE. I'm sure it depends quite a bit on your job and what your prior MOS was, but in my career field it seems that the AF sees the discipline, leadership and combat training that Marines get as generally superior to the Army and Navy folks coming into my career field in the AF, because from my personal experience, more Marines keep their stripes than anyone else. But if you're in a technical job, it would make sense that they would generally lose stripes because there are less technical jobs in the Marines than there are in the Army and Air Force. I didn't intend for that to be a blanket statement, sorry if it came out that way.

[Wereldboom]

I wasn't applying that to EVERYWHERE. I'm sure it depends quite a bit on your job and what your prior MOS was, but in my career field it seems that the AF sees the discipline, leadership and combat training that Marines get as generally superior to the Army and Navy folks coming into my career field in the AF, because from my personal experience, more Marines keep their stripes than anyone else.

I would think that the Air Force wouldn't exactly have that mentality. For example, an Army infantryman may not have the same discipline, leadership, and combat training as a Marine Infantryman - but it sure as hell is superior to that of someone in the Air Force, which should be the only thing that matters as far as keeping rank goes.

[Mi11er]

I would think that the Air Force wouldn't exactly have that mentality. For example, an Army infantryman may not have the same discipline, leadership, and combat training as a Marine Infantryman - but it sure as hell is superior to that of someone in the Air Force, which should be the only thing that matters as far as keeping rank goes.

Depending on the job you would be correct in the combat experience department since our roles are a little different. But... having worked hand in hand with the army in Iraq I wouldn't go as far to say that Army discipline, and leadership is FAR SUPERIOR to the AF. We all have our bad eggs, but don't put your foot in your mouth that fast. I don't have any idea what you do for the military but I can guarantee you could find someone in the AF that could do it better than you and that goes for all branches to include the AF. Don't judge a branch if you aren't a part of it... since that would just be ignorant.. which I am sure you are not..... right?

[sigecaps]

I would think that the Air Force wouldn't exactly have that mentality. For example, an Army infantryman may not have the same discipline, leadership, and combat training as a Marine Infantryman - but it sure as hell is superior to that of someone in the Air Force, which should be the only thing that matters as far as keeping rank goes.

Yeah, but intelligence in the Air Force is far superior to all the other branches, and really that's all that matters as far as keeping rank goes. This is why the Marines get the same-grade handicap vis-a-vis the other services, they just can't compete in the Air Force promotion system. :D

[Red Dragon]

Reminds me of the Army 1Sgt we had in Iraq who would sit outside the shower trailer and tell everyone walking to and from the showers to their tents in PT gear to tuck their shirts in.

Somebody had no job over there.

I'm willing to bet that the said shitstack is now a Sergeant Major.

[Wereldboom]

Yeah, but intelligence in the Air Force is far superior to all the other branches, and really that's all that matters as far as keeping rank goes. This is why the Marines get the same-grade handicap vis-a-vis the other services, they just can't compete in the Air Force promotion system. :D

Well... as far as intelligence goes, I wouldn't be so quick to say that. First, the Coast Guard is the service with the highest minimum ASVAB requirement at 40. As well, I wouldn't say that your AFSCs are more mentally demanding than the MOSs and ratings of the other services either. Because the Air Force is perceived to be the service with the best QOL, they're simply able be more selective. The job with the highest ASVAB requirement is in the Navy, with the nuclear propulsion field.

[sigecaps]

Well... as far as intelligence goes, I wouldn't be so quick to say that. First, the Coast Guard is the service with the highest minimum ASVAB requirement at 40. As well, I wouldn't say that your AFSCs are more mentally demanding than the MOSs and ratings of the other services either. Because the Air Force is perceived to be the service with the best QOL, they're simply able be more selective. The job with the highest ASVAB requirement is in the Navy, with the nuclear propulsion field.


The Air Force attracted the highest-quality recruits in the Defense Department in fiscal 2008, according to data released by the Pentagon.

It's OK Sailor, I'm sure the Navy came in third, ahead of the Army/Marines. :D

[Wereldboom]

Again, the Coast Guard is the service with the highest minimum entry requirements. But just because some barely meets the requirements to get into the Coast Guard, does it mean that he will choose that service? If QOL is the most important thing to someone, and they feel that the Air Force has the best, then that person couuld care less that another service has stricter requirements that he or she meets.

Attracting the best and requiring the best are two different things. Just because you do one doesn't mean that you always do the other.

[sigecaps]

Again, the Coast Guard is the service with the highest minimum entry requirements. But just because some barely meets the requirements to get into the Coast Guard, does it mean that he will choose that service? If QOL is the most important thing to someone, and they feel that the Air Force has the best, then that person couuld care less that another service has stricter requirements that he or she meets.

Attracting the best and requiring the best are two different things. Just because you do one doesn't mean that you always do the other.

I never mentioned minimum entry requirements, or which MOS has the highest ASVAB. I simply made at jest at the other services for their lack of intelligent people, regardless of how you believe the Air Force has come to attract these individuals. Your inability to separate the two, or what others might call a lack of reading comprehension skills seem to solidify the point I was making.

[eichampt1]

I would think that the Air Force wouldn't exactly have that mentality. For example, an Army infantryman may not have the same discipline, leadership, and combat training as a Marine Infantryman - but it sure as hell is superior to that of someone in the Air Force, which should be the only thing that matters as far as keeping rank goes.

Do you mean the same discipline it takes to walk into the the Ft Hood PX and kill someone? Until you join the AF and serve in all the career fields, you do not know what F@#$ you're talking about. Spend a week at a major Army base and you'll see what the real Army is like. Just read the MP blotter to see how many crimes take place on any given day. Really, if the discipline is so high, why are so many crimes commited by Army personnel ???

[Wereldboom]

I never mentioned minimum entry requirements, or which MOS has the highest ASVAB. I simply made at jest at the other services for their lack of intelligent people, regardless of how you believe the Air Force has come to attract these individuals. Your inability to separate the two, or what others might call a lack of reading comprehension skills seem to solidify the point I was making.

Those two things are not easily separable because, like it or not, the ASVAB is the militay's measure of intelligence.

One last thing; you seem to be getting pretty heated. Is there some issue you need to resolve?

[Wereldboom]

Do you mean the same discipline it takes to walk into the the Ft Hood PX and kill someone? Until you join the AF and serve in all the career fields, you do not know what F@#$ you're talking about. Spend a week at a major Army base and you'll see what the real Army is like. Just read the MP blotter to see how many crimes take place on any given day. Really, if the discipline is so high, why are so many crimes commited by Army personnel ???

You gotta be shitting me! You act like you're not aware of the same things happening in the Marine Corps, or of the fact that they have lowered their standards as well - while making up BS standards. The USMC has turned away law-abiding citizens because they have visible tattoos, while waiving convicted felons who don't. But nobody wants to talk about that, right? The reason you hear it happening in the Army more, is because it's the much larger of the two.

By the way, you need to find whoever pissed in your Cheerios this morning and kick his ass.

[sigecaps]

Those two things are not easily separable because, like it or not, the ASVAB is the militay's measure of intelligence.

One last thing; you seem to be getting pretty heated. Is there some issue you need to resolve?

The very statement that ASVAB=intelligence is implied in the argument I was making, and you are suggesting that I'm saying ASVAB=/=intelligence? Your analytical skills are doing the Navy no favors. Allow me to recap for you.

The data shows that the Air Force continues to attract the highest ASVAB scorers which you agree is the military's way of measuring intelligence. It doesn't matter how or why the Air Force continues to attract these individuals. It doesn't matter if other services have higher minimum entry requirements or an MOS with an exceptionally high requirement. Thus my original statement regarding which service is most intelligent (and let me be clear by that I mean comprised of the most intelligent individuals) is and remains correct and your attempted rebuff was wrong. The end.

[BRAVO10000]

Ahh hell - NOW it occurs to me.

Just remembering - when I joined the AF in '87, my ASVAB scotres were sky high (except in "Admin"). I remember two 99s and a 98 in Math, electronics and mechanical sub-sections. Then, when I retreaded in '99. I had to take the ASVAB again. My scores were great but dropped a few points in each category. So - if the ASVAB measured my intelligence...could it be true that promotions made me dumber? Or just being in the military?

Maybe it was the wine that we made from Capri Suns in the desert...

[Wereldboom]

[INDENT]
The very statement that ASVAB=intelligence is implied in the argument I was making, and you are suggesting that I'm saying ASVAB=/=intelligence? Your analytical skills are doing the Navy no favors. Allow me to recap for you.

The data shows that the Air Force continues to attract the highest ASVAB scorers which you agree is the military's way of measuring intelligence. It doesn't matter how or why the Air Force continues to attract these individuals. It doesn't matter if other services have higher minimum entry requirements or an MOS with an exceptionally high requirement. Thus my original statement regarding which service is most intelligent (and let me be clear by that I mean comprised of the most intelligent individuals) is and remains correct and your attempted rebuff was wrong. The end.

No, YOUR analytical skills are off - I didn't that you said ASVAB doesn not equal intelligence. I was pointing out how you dismissed entry requirements and job requirements, as determined by the ASVAB. Did I say that too fast for you, or do I need to speak slower?

I will also add that intelligence is nothing if it isn't put to use. If you've got someone with 99 ASVAB who is a cook, what good is his intelligence doing? I also find it interesting that the majority of the "We're smarter than you" Airmen are cooks, loadmasters, and security forces types who cut a 36 on their ASVAB. What AFSC in the Air Force has the highest ASVAB requirement anyway? The guys dealing with ballistic missiles, the SATCOM guys, the avionics techs? Oh wait, we got those! The Air Force ALMOST had nuclear propulsion, until someone told them that bad things would happen if a nuclear propelled aircraft were to get shot out of the sky and crash. Supposedly, this was even after the aircraft was built and even flown once or twice. Oh well - looks like jobs like that can only be done by a Sailor ;-)

[Wereldboom]

(Pardon my spelling and grammer over the last few post, as I've been typing from my G1).

For the record, I'm not trying to engage in a "my service is better than yours" contest. However, when you use a superlative to desribe yourself at the expense of others, then expect to be called out on it.

[sigecaps]

[INDENT]

No, YOUR analytical skills are off - I didn't that you said ASVAB doesn not equal intelligence. I was pointing out how you dismissed entry requirements and job requirements, as determined by the ASVAB. Did I say that too fast for you, or do I need to speak slower?

I dismissed it because requirements is not a determining factor in the quality of individuals who actually comprise the service. Let me break this down for you preschool style.

Let's say the Air Force has a minimum requirement of 35, and the Navy 50. Let's also say that the highest MOS requirement in the Navy is an 80, and the highest in the Air Force is a 65. If the Air Force attracts the highest percentage of high ASVAB scorers (for whatever arbitrary unit you wish to deem the cutoff as "high scorer") then the Air Force is the overall most intelligent service because it's comprised of the most individuals who meet that threshold. End of argument.


I will also add that intelligence is nothing if it isn't put to use. If you've got someone with 99 ASVAB who is a cook, what good is his intelligence doing? I also find it interesting that the majority of the "We're smarter than you" Airmen are cooks, loadmasters, and security forces types who cut a 36 on their ASVAB.

I disagree with you, but saying that intelligence doesn't matter if it's "not being put to use" is quite a different argument from saying it doesn't exist.


What AFSC in the Air Force has the highest ASVAB requirement anyway? The guys dealing with ballistic missiles, the SATCOM guys, the avionics techs? Oh wait, we got those! The Air Force ALMOST had nuclear propulsion, until someone told them that bad things would happen if a nuclear propelled aircraft were to get shot out of the sky and crash. Supposedly, this was even after the aircraft was built and even flown once or twice. Oh well - looks like jobs like that can only be done by a Sailor ;-)

Wow you are really reaching here. What part of your service doesn't have the highest percentage of high ASVAB scorers you don't understand? This is an irrefutable point. Your service and the coast guard ALMOST came as close to the Air Force in intelligence, but it missed the mark. So keep trying, maybe next year you can be as good as us.

[BRAVO10000]

[INDENT] The guys dealing with ballistic missiles, the SATCOM guys, the avionics techs? Oh wait, we got those!

Ahem...we have SATCOMers in the Air Force. We deliver initial AND sustained Comm, and we can do better than that weak-ass 768K that you're delivering to the average floating gay bar of 1500 people. That's right...the AF has fatter pipes. Oh yeah. :cool:

As for HIGH scores...in the AF, an Airborne Crypto Linguist requires a score of G69. Contracting specialists require a G70. In Mechanical AFSCs, an Applied Geophysics apprentice requires an M83 (with an Electronics 81 to go with it). Across the rest of the Electronics spectrum, the requirement is 67.

The Navy, on the other hand, looks at the ASVAB differently. They use a compilation of ASVAB scores along with some Navy aptitude test and go based on the sum of all scores. The highest one - Machinist Mate - Nuclear Field - listed goes for 290 across 5 tests (average <60, which you'd know if you were in the AF).

Don't take my word for it - it came up on the first hit on a Google search.

http://www.military.com/ASVAB/0,,ASVAB_MOS.html

On minimums...About.com states that Air Force recruits must score at least 36 points the 99-point ASVAB...In actuality, the vast majority (over 70 percent) of those accepted for an Air Force enlistment score 50 or above...you're more likely to be struck by lightning than enlist in the Air Force without a high school diploma. Only about 1/2 of a percent of all Air Force enlistments each year are GED-Holders....a GED-holder must score a minimum of 65 on the AFQT.

In the Navy, recruits must score at least 35 on the AFQT. The Navy raised this requirement from 31 in 2003 for active duty accessions. Reserve enlistment programs still only require a score of 31. Like the Air Force, the Navy accepts very, very few recruits who don't have a high school diploma. To be considered for enlistment with a GED, you must score a minimum of 50 on the AFQT.

Source at http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/genjoin/a/asvabminimum.htm

Alibis? I've seen a string of assertions but no facts...

[Rabbit69]

Actually Bravo, Applied Geophysics, now called Technical Applications, currently requires M-88 and E-85, as well as an EDPT score of 57. I know because I am still sitting here with my fingers crossed that the job opens up and I get it.

[Rabbit69]

This is probably an Air Force specific way of breaking down scores.

It is basically a percentile. They take your percentile on various tests within the ASVAB, average them, and that gives you your M,A,G, and E scores. For example, the E(electronics) is the average of your percentiles on the tests for General Science(GS), Arithmetic Reasoning(AR), Mathematics Knowlege(MK) and Electronics Information(EI).

This way instead of having a score like the Navy, you get a percentile. So GS+AR+MK+EI adding up to 252 like you mentioned gives you an E-63 in the Air Force, which will only get you into a few E-field careers since most require at least E-67.

[Silver Fox]

For example, an Army infantryman may not have the same discipline, leadership, and combat training as a Marine Infantryman - but it sure as hell is superior to that of someone in the Air Force, .

Having worked with the Army infantryman, I can say this is a falsehood. These were guys who swung UXO mortar rounds into the side of garbage dumpsters as the result of a dare. Need I really say anything more than that?

[Smeghead]

Having worked with the Army infantryman, I can say this is a falsehood. These were guys who swung UXO mortar rounds into the side of garbage dumpsters as the result of a dare. Need I really say anything more than that?

And don't forget the guy holding the ballistic plate over his head while the ANA soldier took shots at it with his AK.

[eichampt1]

You gotta be shitting me! You act like you're not aware of the same things happening in the Marine Corps, or of the fact that they have lowered their standards as well - while making up BS standards. The USMC has turned away law-abiding citizens because they have visible tattoos, while waiving convicted felons who don't. But nobody wants to talk about that, right? The reason you hear it happening in the Army more, is because it's the much larger of the two.

By the way, you need to find whoever pissed in your Cheerios this morning and kick his ass.

Not to completely bash the Army, I have known some highly intelligent Soldiers, but the Army has the widest cross-section of our society, from the highly advanced to bottom feeders. Obviously, the bad apples get the most attention and reinforce the bad stereotypes. By the way, I found the bastard who pissed in my cherios and kicked his ass. :mad: :D

[Roll_Tide]

To answer the question, it all depends on how much time on active duty you have. i switched from the Army to the AF in 04 and because i didn't have over 5 years on active duty then I went from an E-5 to E-4. I am not sure what the TIS requirements are for E-6 though. Also if you are switching to a job that is the same I heard you can keep your rank.

[MACHINE666]

I'm an E-6 in the army right now. I plan to get out of the army in 2010 and join the air force. My question is will I be able to keep my rank when I switch over to the air force?

Well you're definitely stepping up in life! Just like Ogre in Revenge of the Nerds II became a member of Lambda Lambda Lambda, you too will shed the green stink of being a dumb Army jock when you cross into the Air Force blue. Your one muscle (brain) and two brains (arms) will in time revert back to their original functions and purposes, as will the urge to scream 'HUA!" after every sentence. Chances are you will frighten many Air Force people since we're used to being handled with kid gloves for the most part, or you will curse excessively when someone asks you what the O.I. or T.O. for your job specifically states. Fret not, it is all just a part of the transition period. On the good side, like others have pointed out, you will be able to max out your PT test (the only thing that the AF cares about these days it seems) and you will inspire and help those who are on the remedial fitness program. Just remember the kid gloves when speaking with them and before you know, your chunky chickens will become fighting flamingos (a Ramstein-specific term, don't blame me if it sounds ultra gay).

We gladly welcome you aboard!

:D

[MACHINE666]

You gotta be shitting me! You act like you're not aware of the same things happening in the Marine Corps, or of the fact that they have lowered their standards as well - while making up BS standards. The USMC has turned away law-abiding citizens because they have visible tattoos, while waiving convicted felons who don't. But nobody wants to talk about that, right? The reason you hear it happening in the Army more, is because it's the much larger of the two.

By the way, you need to find whoever pissed in your Cheerios this morning and kick his ass.

Actually I have to agree with Eicht in regards to the Army and the amount of crimes that are committed. Here in the KMC area we share alot of our facilities with the Army and it seems each week that they're making the blotter - more so than the Air Force. Even the first weekend I made it to Ramstein I had some dumb Army grunt try to pick a fight with me when I told him that I won't volunteer to deploy if I don't have to. He was drunk and most likely suffering from some kind of PTSD. Now talk about first impressions...

[SSG_Rowe]

First of all,

DO NOT MENTION TO ANYONE IN THE ARMY THAT YOU ARE SWITCHING OVER BECAUSE THEY MORE LIKELY TO GIVE YOU A BAD DISCHARGE. SECOND - the only way you are going to keep your rank if active in army and switch to air force reserve is if you have a bachelors degree- even so, you will have to conduct a job interview with a squadron commander and it is up to him/her to accept you, then the recruiter will do the paper work. :D

I don't know where this guy got this information but it's 100 percent incorrect. Go to the AF Reserves website. I am prior AF. I got cut in 2007 when they downsized and now that my Army enlistment is coming to a close I'm going back to the AF. You will not get a Bad Discharge and E-1 thru E-5 keeps their rank regardless. E-6 and above must 1. possess a special skill set or be prior AFSC qualified or 2. enlist into a job that is critically manned. I'm a SSG in the Army and if I go back to doing what I did in the Air Force (Tactical Air Control Party) then I will keep my rank but if I chose something else then I will probably drop one grade. All of this information is on the AF Reserves website. http://afreserve.com/?:Rank%20Conversion&aEMb=0

[BigNasty82476]

Don't worry about rank...worry about the Air Force PT test. This ain't your Dad's Air Force any more.

This is a joke right?

[BRUWIN]

This is a joke right?

Yes...I always forget about the smileys.

[BigNasty82476]

Yes...I always forget about the smileys.

You scared me for a second Bruin haha.

[TJC78]

First of all, unless you've been in the Army and have crossed over into the AF, or unless you're a recruiter, you have no experience to draw from. Whatever job you did in the Army doesn't mean jack as far as keeping your rank. Getting into the AF, yes.

That being said, OP, I was an E-4 when I got out of the Army and came in as an E-4. It mostly has to do with the amount of time you've spent in a particular rank. Things may have changed, like they always do, but there's a chart somewhere that breaks down how long you have to be in each rank to retain it in the AF. I think for E-6 it was 3 or 5 years. Wish I could help further, but you really just need to talk to your recruiter, he/she will have the answer you need.

[kvnhlstd]

Having worked with the Army infantryman, I can say this is a falsehood. These were guys who swung UXO mortar rounds into the side of garbage dumpsters as the result of a dare. Need I really say anything more than that?

Absolute Classic post... I was reading it and mentally picturing the guy spinning like a discus thrower with a mortar in his hands, heaving it at a dumpster then trying to run all dizzy like.

[a1cfox21]

I'm an E-6 in the army right now. I plan to get out of the army in 2010 and join the air force. My question is will I be able to keep my rank when I switch over to the air force?

I just enlisted in the Reg AF being prior service but I did 6yrs Active AF then 3yrs Air Guard. Max grade for PS enlistment is E-6. You need to have 10yrs of total Active duty service. I got promoted to E-6 in the Guard but could not retain it coming back in because I only had 6.7yrs of total active service. The worst part of this for someone like you coming from another branch to AF is that your Date of Rank WILL be you date of AF enlistment. I was able to retain my time in grade but only because I was reg AF previously. AFI36-2604 for more info.

I've seen some unofficial stuff regarding possibly losing rank if you come into the AF in a different job than held in the other branch but can't find any official reference for it. You will likely be forced into an equivalent job upon enlistment if there is one unless you qualify for a Spec Ops AFSC or EOD. I don't know how they work it if the AF does not have an equivalent job though.

Because the Air Force is in a constant state of flux, it might be wise to check with an AF recruiter and see where you stand. This way you have a better idea of what your options are before your DOS.

I was on my way to enlisting in the Army when the AF recently was still downsizing but once I found out my job had opened up for PS applicants I can back to the Blue side.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do!!!

[BigNasty82476]

I would think that the Air Force wouldn't exactly have that mentality. For example, an Army infantryman may not have the same discipline, leadership, and combat training as a Marine Infantryman - but it sure as hell is superior to that of someone in the Air Force, which should be the only thing that matters as far as keeping rank goes.

I'll give it to you that your average 11B has more discipline than 95% of the AF. That fact I will not argue with and I am actually embarrased to admit it. On the other hand.....Army fobbits are worse than AF fobbits for the most part. You want to talk about no discipline, just watch some of these Army fobbits on a day to day basis and you will be amazed.

I am currently on my 4th joint deployment and I am unfortunatly a fobbit myself for the first time in my career (USMP). The base I am assigned to is about 85% fobbiit and the shit I see on a day to day basis is astounding.
- Probably 20% of the soldiers here are grossly overweight as opposed to maybe 4 or 5 Airmen I have seen.
- We have had about 15 cases of soldiers losing their rifles here on base.....WOW!!! Great discipline!
- Its not uncommon to see Army senior enlisted and officers speaking ebonics....way to lead by example!

I could go on and on about the lack of discipline displayed by the vast majority of the Army at this base but I think you get the general idea. I for one have lost a lot of respect for the Army as a whole. On the other hand, the infantry units I have worked with in the past were squared away and I have nothing but good things to say about them.

Bottom line is the Air Force does lack a lot of discipline but the Army as a whole is no better and in fact worse in many ways.

[Yggdrasil]

From the looks of it, if the Air Force took everyone that applied, the Air Force would be mostly disgruntled prior Army.

Trying to go from Army to Air Force appears to be like trying to have sex with a beautiful woman who is already surrounded by five other guys trying to do the same thing. What makes you think you're going to pull it off, when others are trying to do the same - and it's not working for them? What makes you better than the others?

Or maybe some people don't mind being one of the six men gawking at a woman who won't give them the time of day.

[eichampt1]

See a recruiter. If he/she isn't helpfull, see another. They will give you the most up to date information.

[502nd]

I don't mean to start up an old post, but after reading some of the post on the Air Force forum, I felt I should. You see, I can't help but read on this forum all of the people who seem to think that the Army is full of dumb soldiers. Granted, we have our share, but we are not alone. While in Iraq, I just came off of a patrol when we started hearing small arms fire and then a large explosion. A few minutes later, we received the call to assist "Wild Blue 6", an Air Force convoy escort platoon who was taking contact on Route Vernon. We mounted up and and arrived on the scene within ten minutes to find some of the most dicked up service members I have ever seen. The lead vehicle was destroyed and not one of those idiots got out of their vehicle to check on the PAX inside. So my team rushed out to check on them while my squad leader attempted to set them into a defensive posture. It was complicated as these guys didn't have a clue about sectors of fire(some of their rounds landed on our JSS, which is marked on the BFT). They didn't know shit about suppressive fires, nor did they know how to change the freq's over to the medevac channel. The convoy leader was freakin out and was of no help to anybody. I had privates leading Air Force NCO's through the fight. After about twenty minutes, the fighting died down and we had another one of our platoons assume site security while we escorted the convoy to Camp Taji. When we got to Taji, the AF lieutenant apologized for freaking out, explaining that they never experienced a fire fight like that(I was personally disgusted by him, but what can you do). Point to this story, my platoon of Infantrymen(a very intelligent group of men actually) were not only highly capable, but they could actually think and react under fire(and I wouldn't trade those guys for any of those "were the smartest" air force types that we saw that night). You see, contrary to popular belief, to be a successfully infantryman, you need a high amount of intelligence, because we don't have the luxury of looking stupid and not knowing what to do when the shit hits the fan. You need to memorize battle drills, know the range and effects of weapon systems and how to employ them, first aid, intelligence gathering and reporting, how to set up use various pieces of communication equipment, spotting enemy emplacements(IED's) and figuring out how to deal with them and more tasks then I can even think about. So you guys can have your asvab score claims. Because I truly believe that soldiers and marines tend to be be able to think more clearer under pressure than your average airman. And I know that some of you will disagree with that as much as I disagree with what I read here. I just wish that the rest of the Air Force had the same mentality that the TACP's and combat camera guys that I worked with displayed.

Oh and by the way, a lot of people join the Army or the Marines because they want a real challenge in their lives. A lot of these guys want to fight for their country, and not just serve it. Today's modern Infantry requires guys who can learn quick and think while the bullets are flying. Every soldier in my infantry company had higher than a 36 GT score (I really don't know how you can graduate high school and receive this low ass score), and any of them could've got into the Air Force, but it just doesn't appeal to most people's definition of a challenge. But don't get me wrong, I am not one of those screw everyone but us types. I know everyone has a purpose and I appreciate the rounds droped as well as my picture looking cool in the newspaper. I just feel that some of you should be the last people to criticize soldeirs and marines.

[Silver Fox]

I don't mean to start up an old post, but after reading some of the post on the Air Force forum, I felt I should. You see, I can't help but read on this forum all of the people who seem to think that the Army is full of dumb soldiers. Granted, we have our share, but we are not alone. While in Iraq, I just came off of a patrol when we started hearing small arms fire and then a large explosion. A few minutes later, we received the call to assist "Wild Blue 6", an Air Force convoy escort platoon who was taking contact on Route Vernon. We mounted up and and arrived on the scene within ten minutes to find some of the most dicked up service members I have ever seen. The lead vehicle was destroyed and not one of those idiots got out of their vehicle to check on the PAX inside. So my team rushed out to check on them while my squad leader attempted to set them into a defensive posture. It was complicated as these guys didn't have a clue about sectors of fire(some of their rounds landed on our JSS, which is marked on the BFT). They didn't know shit about suppressive fires, nor did they know how to change the freq's over to the medevac channel. The convoy leader was freakin out and was of no help to anybody. I had privates leading Air Force NCO's through the fight. After about twenty minutes, the fighting died down and we had another one of our platoons assume site security while we escorted the convoy to Camp Taji. When we got to Taji, the AF lieutenant apologized for freaking out, explaining that they never experienced a fire fight like that(I was personally disgusted by him, but what can you do). Point to this story, my platoon of Infantrymen(a very intelligent group of men actually) were not only highly capable, but they could actually think and react under fire(and I wouldn't trade those guys for any of those "were the smartest" air force types that we saw that night). You see, contrary to popular belief, to be a successfully infantryman, you need a high amount of intelligence. You need to memorize battle drills, know the range and effects of weapon systems and how to employ them, first aid, intelligence gathering and reporting, how to set up use various pieces of communication equipment, spotting enemy emplacements(IED's) and figuring out how to deal with them and more tasks then I can even think about. So you guys can have your asvab score claims. Because I truly believe that soldiers and marines tend to be be able to think more clearer under pressure than your average airman. And I know that some of you will disagree with that as much as I disagree with what I read here. I just wish that the rest of the Air Force had the same mentality that the TACP's and combat camera guys that I worked with displayed.

That's not "Stupid", that's "Untrained". Big difference!
Those guys doing supply convoys are AF Logistics, they get NO Combat training aside from a very short crash course at Camp Bullis. You're surprised they're freaking out? They're smart, they just don't know how to conduct combat operations. And reacting under fire has no bearing on intelligence, it's training. Dogs can be trained, you wouldn't say they were intelligent as people. I'm not calling you dogs by the way, I'm assuming you'll catch what I'm saying.

I could turn around and throw out stories of the most dicked up Army soldiers I saw doing about the same damn thing, except they weren't logisitcs, THEY WERE MPs!



Oh and by the way, a lot of people join the Army or the Marines because they want a real challenge in their lives.

Agreed. But you guys unfortunately get more idiots because your intelligence standards are lower.


Today's modern Infantry requires guys who can learn quick and think while the bullets are flying. Every soldier in my infantry company had higher than a 36 GT score (I really don't know how you can graduate high school and receive this low ass score)

That's not saying much.


and any of them could've got into the Air Force,

Sure, but that's not saying much more.


but it just doesn't appeal to most people's definition of a challenge. But don't get me wrong, I am not one of those screw everyone but us types. I know everyone has a purpose and I appreciate the rounds droped as well as my picture looking cool in the newspaper. I just feel that some of you should be the last people to criticize soldeirs and marines.

No one is above criticism. Sorry. It's life.

I'm not saying every soldier is dumb. I am saying there are more dumb soldiers than there are airmen. You can get mad about that but 1) The Army has more personnel than the Air Force. 2) The Army has a lower entrance standard for intelligence. There's only one conclusion that one can logically come to, and it doesn't help that most of us have ran into far more of the low-end ASVAAB score soldiers than we have the high-end. Some of us have even had the misfortune of working amongst field artillery from the National Guard. I felt my brain rotting with every word spoken from 85% of their mouths.

[Shrike]

I don't mean to start up an old post, but after reading some of the post on the Air Force forum, I felt I should. You see, I can't help but read on this forum all of the people who seem to think that the Army is full of dumb soldiers. Granted, we have our share, but we are not alone. While in Iraq, I just came off of a patrol when we started hearing small arms fire and then a large explosion. A few minutes later, we received the call to assist "Wild Blue 6", an Air Force convoy escort platoon who was taking contact on Route Vernon. We mounted up and and arrived on the scene within ten minutes to find some of the most dicked up service members I have ever seen. The lead vehicle was destroyed and not one of those idiots got out of their vehicle to check on the PAX inside. So my team rushed out to check on them while my squad leader attempted to set them into a defensive posture. It was complicated as these guys didn't have a clue about sectors of fire(some of their rounds landed on our JSS, which is marked on the BFT). They didn't know shit about suppressive fires, nor did they know how to change the freq's over to the medevac channel. The convoy leader was freakin out and was of no help to anybody. I had privates leading Air Force NCO's through the fight. After about twenty minutes, the fighting died down and we had another one of our platoons assume site security while we escorted the convoy to Camp Taji. When we got to Taji, the AF lieutenant apologized for freaking out, explaining that they never experienced a fire fight like that(I was personally disgusted by him, but what can you do). Point to this story, my platoon of Infantrymen(a very intelligent group of men actually) were not only highly capable, but they could actually think and react under fire(and I wouldn't trade those guys for any of those "were the smartest" air force types that we saw that night). You see, contrary to popular belief, to be a successfully infantryman, you need a high amount of intelligence, because we don't have the luxury of looking stupid and not knowing what to do when the shit hits the fan. You need to memorize battle drills, know the range and effects of weapon systems and how to employ them, first aid, intelligence gathering and reporting, how to set up use various pieces of communication equipment, spotting enemy emplacements(IED's) and figuring out how to deal with them and more tasks then I can even think about. So you guys can have your asvab score claims. Because I truly believe that soldiers and marines tend to be be able to think more clearer under pressure than your average airman. And I know that some of you will disagree with that as much as I disagree with what I read here. I just wish that the rest of the Air Force had the same mentality that the TACP's and combat camera guys that I worked with displayed.

Oh and by the way, a lot of people join the Army or the Marines because they want a real challenge in their lives. A lot of these guys want to fight for their country, and not just serve it. Today's modern Infantry requires guys who can learn quick and think while the bullets are flying. Every soldier in my infantry company had higher than a 36 GT score (I really don't know how you can graduate high school and receive this low ass score), and any of them could've got into the Air Force, but it just doesn't appeal to most people's definition of a challenge. But don't get me wrong, I am not one of those screw everyone but us types. I know everyone has a purpose and I appreciate the rounds droped as well as my picture looking cool in the newspaper. I just feel that some of you should be the last people to criticize soldeirs and marines.

There's a heavy thunderstorm with hail. A cargo plane is coming in with an engine out and low on fuel - it HAS to land at this airfield. The power to the base just popped and all airfield systems went to backup generators. However, the ILS Glideslope is faulting out, the PAR won't come up out of standby, and the radios in the tower aren't remoting properly.

You've got eight minutes before that plane hits end of runway. What do you do? Quickly now, hurry your ass up!!! You received three days of orientation on comm systems, so you should know what to do. WHAT DO YOU DO?!?

[502nd]

That's not "Stupid", that's "Untrained". Big difference!
I could turn around and throw out stories of the most dicked up Army soldiers I saw doing about the same damn thing, except they weren't logisitcs, THEY WERE MPs!

But that is my point, these guys were security forces. But if you must list examples, go ahead, most MP's I have seen can kick ass.


That's not saying much.

I used the 36 score because it is the Air Force minimun. It is only five points higher than the Army, so it is saying much.

No one is above criticism. Sorry. It's life.

I agree, I am just giving you an alternate opinion.

I'm not saying every soldier is dumb. I am saying there are more dumb soldiers than there are airmen. You can get mad about that but 1) The Army has more personnel than the Air Force. 2) The Army has a lower entrance standard for intelligence. There's only one conclusion that one can logically come to, and it doesn't help that most of us have ran into far more of the low-end ASVAAB score soldiers than we have the high-end. Some of us have even had the misfortune of working amongst field artillery from the National Guard. I felt my brain rotting with every word spoken from 85% of their mouths.

And believe it or not, we share the same opinion on this. I agree that the Army has a slightly lower ASVAB score(32 to 36), but my point is we are not all idiots. And I avoid Army idiots with the passion just like I avoid Air force idiots. Dont take my opinion post personal, I am just giving an alternate opinion to the forum. But I do stand by what I posted and I don't have hard feelings. But I do feel that basic combat should be learned by all servicemebers and that includes the Air Force.

[Silver Fox]

And believe it or not, we share the same opinion on this. I agree that the Army has a slightly lower ASVAB score(32 to 36), but my point is we are not all idiots. And I avoid Army idiots with the passion just like I avoid Air force isiots. Dont take my opinion post personal, I am just giving an alternate opinion to the forum. But I do stand by what I posted and I don't have hard feelings. But I do feel that basic combat should be learned by all servicemebers and that includes the Air Force.

I agree, if I had it my way we'd all be going through USMC Basic Training, and I didn't take it personally either, I was just pointing out why it is like that.

[502nd]

There's a heavy thunderstorm with hail. A cargo plane is coming in with an engine out and low on fuel - it HAS to land at this airfield. The power to the base just popped and all airfield systems went to backup generators. However, the ILS Glideslope is faulting out, the PAR won't come up out of standby, and the radios in the tower aren't remoting properly.

You've got eight minutes before that plane hits end of runway. What do you do? Quickly now, hurry your ass up!!! You received three days of orientation on comm systems, so you should know what to do. WHAT DO YOU DO?!?

The difference between what I posted and what you just wrote, is that what you just posted is job specific. Where as I expect anyone who leaves the wire to know basic combat skills. I expect them to know how to change the freq on their radio. Hell, I expect them to have the Medevac freq on their radio. I expect them to be able to establish a defensive perimeter. I expect leaders to know how to lead their troops. And most importantly, I can understand having to respond to the issue, because it was my AO. But to have to run to their lead vehicle and assist their people while they sat in their vehicles. And to have my privates assign sectors of fires to thier gun trucks and control their fires, come on people. This is basic, safe your life shit. It isn't Infantry stuff. This is what every sevicemember should know.

But I didn't come here to disrespect airmen(actually, I can here to learn something about it). But after reading post after post of Army and Marine bashing, I finally had to say something. And some of the posts are just embarrasing to the AF. People talking bad about PT, asking why they have to perform ILO missions and just bitching about small shit. Come On

[Silver Fox]

The difference between what I posted and what you just wrote, is that what you just posted is job specific. Where as I expect anyone who leaves the wire to know basic combat skills.

And we, the Airmen understand and empathize with you. Air Force leadership does not. See the difference? The AF does not consider combat skills a 'general skill', just like the Army does not consider what Shrike posted a 'general skill'.

[502nd]

And we, the Airmen understand and empathize with you. Air Force leadership does not. See the difference? The AF does not consider combat skills a 'general skill', just like the Army does not consider what Shrike posted a 'general skill'.

Yeah, I hear you on that. I wasn't even going to post but I just finished reading every topic of the last four pages. And what I read shocked me. The ILO and the Army doing its share was the worst. SInce 2003, I have spent over 3 years of my life in Iraq. The Army pace is year on year off so we shouldn't have to justify why we ask for Air Force help. The last time I checked, Iraq wasn't just an Army/Marine. So I was blowing off steam with this post. I definitly wasn't trying to pick a fight.

[Silver Fox]

Yeah, I hear you on that. I wasn't even going to post but I just finished reading every topic of the last four pages. And what I read shocked me. The ILO and the Army doing its share was the worst. SInce 2003, I have spent over 3 years of my life in Iraq. The Army pace is year on year off so we shouldn't have to justify why we ask for Air Force help. The last time I checked, Iraq wasn't just an Army/Marine. So I was blowing off steam with this post. I definitly wasn't trying to pick a fight.

In that regard people have a right to be frustrated, they came into an Air Force known for staying out of the fight, now all of a sudden they're being given a gun with no ingraining of warrior ethos and sent into hostile situations.

I'm in a career field that spends ATLEAST six months a year overseas, if we go ILO with you guys, it's a year, I've spent over three years of my life overseas. Your deployment length doesn't mean you don't have to justify your manning needs to the Air Force. With many Army personnel getting more than a year of dwell time between deployments I think the Air Force is quite justified in getting that question answered.

I've tried to myself on my own conclusions and not having all the information, but the Department of the Army still owes leadership an answer, which Air Force leadership is too spineless to ask for.

Some of it was certainly politically motivated: Detainee Operations was definitely a direct result of Abu Ghraib.

I think that some of the other stuff is political in a more grim way. I think the Air Force is doing a lot of convoys because it lowers the Army's body count, which is good for Army recruiting. Morbid perhaps, but it is what it is...

ILO as a whole I think, is not turned down by the AF Leadership because people are questioning the AF's relevance, so having these little "JET" Deployments gives the Air Force something to throw out about "Joint Warfighting". It's all politics and bullshit, like anything else.

[502nd]

While some people in the Army are getting a little more dwell time than others. I still believe the Army gets hit the hardest. It is almost impossible to walk on most of these post and find people who hasn't done at least two tours in Iaq and Afghanistan. Here at Fort Campbell, we haven't even been back six months and we got guys getting ready to go back. Can you imagine being at Campbell since 2001 and your getting ready for your 5th year long deployment(Rakkassans). These guys aren't asking why they are going yet again. I haven't asked why I am going yet again. We got National Guard units on their second and third tours. So I still don't understand why we have to justify extra help. I also believe the American people would be mortified if Air Force leaders were wining about why they have to deploy Airmen to help out while so many marines and soldiers are dying in combat.

[Silver Fox]

While some people in the Army are getting a little more dwell time than others. I still believe the Army gets hit the hardest. It is almost impossible to walk on most of these post and find people who hasn't done at least two tours in Iaq and Afghanistan. Here at Fort Campbell, we haven't even been back six months and we got guys getting ready to go back. Can you imagine being at Campbell since 2001 and your getting ready for your 5th year long deployment(Rakkassans). These guys aren't asking why they are going yet again. I haven't asked why I am going yet again. We got National Guard units on their second and third tours. So I still don't understand why we have to justify extra help. I also believe the American people would be mortified if Air Force leaders were wining about why they have to deploy Airmen to help out while so many marines and soldiers are dying in combat.

It's not a difficult question to answer: It's not their job.

Does it sound cruel, perhaps?

Is it valid: Currently, yes. Every Airman is not a rifleman like the Army and the Marines.

You may not like the answer, doesn't make it less valid.

And I can imagine it, I've been home for three months before going back for ten. Then got home for three months and went right back.

I'm assuming you're in the 502nd PIR.... so let's say we weren't at war currently, and infantry weren't in high demand. Let's say you got tasked to go through one week of being an Air Traffic Controller and then sent to some shitty place working in a control tower because the Air Force told you they didn't have enough manpower, meanwhile Air Force Traffic Controllers have a year dwell time. Additionally, everyone treats you like shit because your army and aren't a "real air traffic controller". How would you feel about that? I've seen how much infantry bitch when the ARMY tells them to do something other than their jobs, so I doubt anyone would feel good about working for the chAir Force. Or how about spending three days out of every seven or nine away from your family in a little missile complex somewhere in shit ass north dakota in -40 temperature? Probably wouldn't be too thrilled about that either. You know how much I listened to cooks, infantry, field artillery, etc. bitch about not doing their jobs? THe cooks and FA bitched about doing the infantry's job. The infantry bitched about doing the MPs job. Everyone bitched about detainee ops. Let's not get on too tall of a horse. As many times as I've heard, "Why am I doing this I'm in the fuck Air Force?" I've heard soldiers say, "Why am I doing this I'm in the fucking quartermaster/mp/infantry/armor/artillery corps." Hell, the Army guys at my base bitch about being at an Air Force base saying "I joined the Army not the god damn chair force!". So I can't say I'm all that sympathetic that Airmen are bitching about putting their lives on the line when Army guys are bitching about being assigned to a CONUS Air Force base.... All that said, I've done JET/ILO several times before, would do so again if I were staying in. I get along better with 11 and 0300 series folks than I do most zoomies.

[Shrike]

The difference between what I posted and what you just wrote, is that what you just posted is job specific. Where as I expect anyone who leaves the wire to know basic combat skills. I expect them to know how to change the freq on their radio. Hell, I expect them to have the Medevac freq on their radio. I expect them to be able to establish a defensive perimeter. I expect leaders to know how to lead their troops. And most importantly, I can understand having to respond to the issue, because it was my AO. But to have to run to their lead vehicle and assist their people while they sat in their vehicles. And to have my privates assign sectors of fires to thier gun trucks and control their fires, come on people. This is basic, safe your life shit. It isn't Infantry stuff. This is what every sevicemember should know.


Hence Silver Fox's point about airmen receiving three days of training. How often do you train to perform the above?

[Shrike]

While some people in the Army are getting a little more dwell time than others. I still believe the Army gets hit the hardest. It is almost impossible to walk on most of these post and find people who hasn't done at least two tours in Iaq and Afghanistan. Here at Fort Campbell, we haven't even been back six months and we got guys getting ready to go back. Can you imagine being at Campbell since 2001 and your getting ready for your 5th year long deployment(Rakkassans). These guys aren't asking why they are going yet again. I haven't asked why I am going yet again. We got National Guard units on their second and third tours. So I still don't understand why we have to justify extra help. I also believe the American people would be mortified if Air Force leaders were wining about why they have to deploy Airmen to help out while so many marines and soldiers are dying in combat.

Yep, ain't my job. I did lots of rotations during the 13 years of post-DS, ONW/OSW in Saudi Arabia, and never once aksed "How come a Marine or Soldier isn't doing my job for me?" You know why? Becuase it ain't their job.

[Silver Fox]

Yep, ain't my job. I did lots of rotations during the 13 years of post-DS, ONW/OSW in Saudi Arabia, and never once aksed "How come a Marine or Soldier isn't doing my job for me?" You know why? Becuase it ain't their job.

Shrike has a valid point. Can't forget that the Air Force has been fighting a war since 1991 while most folks were sitting around at home with nothing to do.

[502nd]

I'm assuming you're in the 502nd PIR.... so let's say we weren't at war currently, and infantry weren't in high demand. Let's say you got tasked to go through one week of being an Air Traffic Controller and then sent to some shitty place working in a control tower because the Air Force told you they didn't have enough manpower, meanwhile Air Force Traffic Controllers have a year dwell time. How would you feel about that? I've seen how much infantry bitch when the ARMY tells them to do something other than their jobs, so I doubt anyone would feel good about working for the chAir Force. You know how much I listened to cooks, infantry, field artillery, etc. bitch about not doing their jobs? THe cooks and FA bitched about doing the infantry's job. The infantry bitched about doing the MPs job. Everyone bitched about detainee ops. Let's not get on too tall of a horse. As many times as I've heard, "Why am I doing this I'm in the fuck Air Force?" I've heard soldiers say, "Why am I doing this I'm in the fucking quartermaster/mp/infantry/armor/artillery corps"

While most souldn't be the happiest about doing the Job. We would understand that It was needed of us and I would do the best I could to make the best of the situation. I wouldn't require a reason from the Air Force to explain to me why they need the help If I can see it for my self. So maybe I don't understand, is it that you can't see the strain the Army is under. Because it is under strain. And don't think that a few soldiers bitching about the Air Force represents the whole Army. Soldiers bitch like everyone else, but we generally don't come on sites like this and demand to know why we have to help another service. In short, If the Air Force wanted me to be an ATC, I would jump at the chance to do it.

[502nd]

Hence Silver Fox's point about airmen receiving three days of training. How often do you train to perform the above?

I don't spend any time learning that stuff. But I don't have to worry about my life being in danger by not knowing it either. That was my point.

[Silver Fox]

While most souldn't be the happiest about doing the Job. We would understand that It was needed of us and I would do the best I could to make the best of the situation. I wouldn't require a reason from the Air Force to explain to me why they need the help If I can see it for my self. So maybe I don't understand, is it that you can't see the strain the Army is under. Because it is under strain. And don't think that a few soldiers bitching about the Air Force represents the whole Army. Soldiers bitch like everyone else, but we generally don't come on sites like this and demand to know why we have to help another service. In short, If the Air Force wanted me to be an ATC, I would jump at the chance to do it.

Well I jumped at the chance to help the Army, but even having done so, I am curious to know why they needed it in the first place, and why their training was such crap. With the Army bragging about meeting recruiting goals and such, there's no appearance of strain. Hell, from the lack of bitching as you put it, we assume you guys are fine and dandy. No problems! :D

[502nd]

Yep, ain't my job. I did lots of rotations during the 13 years of post-DS, ONW/OSW in Saudi Arabia, and never once aksed "How come a Marine or Soldier isn't doing my job for me?" You know why? Becuase it ain't their job.

The one thing we both have in common, if nothing else, is that if our nation needs us, we respond. Your nation needed you and that goes beyond your actual job. It seems to me that rather then being pissed off that you had to help another service, you could just be proud that you had the chance to reshape the Air Force and change the way people think of the Air Force. And just know if you do need us to help, we will just like we helped with secuirty at BALAD until the AIr Force took over.

[Silver Fox]

I don't spend any time learning that stuff. But I don't have to worry about my life being in danger by not knowing it either. That was my point.

No, but it's definitely someone else's life on the line...

[Silver Fox]

The one thing we both have in common, if nothing else, is that if our nation needs us, we respond. Your nation needed you and that goes beyond your actual job. It seems to me that rather then being pissed off that you had to help another service, you could just be proud that you had the chance to reshape the Air Force and change the way people think of the Air Force. And just know if you do need us to help, we will just like we helped with secuirty at BALAD until the AIr Force took over.

You left out Joint base Balad, you weren't helping us, that was an Army mission.

Like I said, I'm not bitching about helping out, but I like to know why something is necessary, because if they don't tell me why, I assume it's bullshit. Otherwise, why wouldn't they tell us?

It's like in the movies, the guy says, "Gentlemen I intend to put you in harms way to save a downed pilot, anyone who wishes to stay behind step back."
No one does.

BUT if the guy would have just said, "Gentlemen I intend to put you in harms way."
People are going to be going, "Uh..... what the fuck for?"
Then you have the rumors.
"I heard it was to save some old man's dog."
"Fuck that I'm not dying for some old bastard's dog."

That's what we're dealing with.
"Airmen I intend to put you in harms way doing the Army's job."
"Ok. Why?"
"Uh.... let me get back to you on that."
"I heard it was so some jerkoff could get promoted."
"Fuck that I'm not dying for anyone's star."

[502nd]

Another way off looking at it is like this. The Army was downsized like every other branch was. We currently have 37 BCT's and enough support ellements to cover it. If 16 of the brigades are deployed at any given time you can se what the support ellement is going through. Although the Army is meeting its recruitment goals, it is also increasing its role, we are rapidly increasing forces in Afghanistan faster than we are pulling them out in Iraq. And nobody is feeling that pich harder then the Army. I know that some of your career fields keep you guys deployed often, but our whole branch of service is keeping us deployed often. But if a soldier never told you we appreciate it, lt me be the first. I really do appreciate it.

[Silver Fox]

Another way off looking at it is like this. The Army was downsized like every other branch was. We currently have 37 BCT's and enough support ellements to cover it. If 16 of the brigades are deployed at any given time you can se what the support ellement is going through. Although the Army is meeting its recruitment goals, it is also increasing its role, we are rapidly increasing forces in Afghanistan faster than we are pulling them out in Iraq. And nobody is feeling that pich harder then the Army. I know that some of your career fields keep you guys deployed often, but our whole branch of service is keeping us deployed often. But if a soldier never told you we appreciate it, lt me be the first. I really do appreciate it.

I would argue the Air Force is feeling the pinch pretty damn hard too. You guys are short, so what? We're all short.

A bigger question I have is why has the Air Force not given these JET/ILO taskings to the guard and reserve? The Air Guard and Air Reserve are still riding pretty fucking cushy right now. I think personally, they should get all the JET/ILO taskings. If anybody is slacking, it's the Air Guard and Air Reserves, who are still deploying on a completley voluntary basis. I think I've heard of one maybe two guard units getting called up. They won't go overseas for these JET taskings, but they'll sure fucking take my place CONUS while I carry both the Air Force's and the Army's deployment work load.

Another gripe: Why does the Army's training suck? You want me to go JET. ok. But why does everything you teach me suck? Seriously I've gotten way better training from the Air Force, but the Army always says my training is substandard and we have to get trained by the Army so I show up and get a bunch of fat asses in the National Guard who don't even do my job or the job I'm deploying to do trying to read a lesson plan with their 3rd grade reading level and I'm sitting their trying not to fall asleep. Then I get into theater and they say "So what did you learn?"
And I answer by singing a modified version of the Edwin Starr Song "War"
"JET! HUA! What is it good for? ABSOLUTELY NOTHIN'!"
"JET! I despise! Cause it means destruction, of my personal life!"
"JET! HUA! What is it good for? ABSOLUTELY NOTHIN'!"
"JET! I despise! Cause the training's nothing', but a waste of my time!"

[502nd]

You left out Joint base Balad, you weren't helping us, that was an Army mission.

Like I said, I'm not bitching about helping out, but I like to know why something is necessary, because if they don't tell me why, I assume it's bullshit. Otherwise, why wouldn't they tell us?

It's like in the movies, the guy says, "Gentlemen I intend to put you in harms way to save a downed pilot, anyone who wishes to stay behind step back."
No one does.

BUT if the guy would have just said, "Gentlemen I intend to put you in harms way."
People are going to be going, "Uh..... what the fuck for?"
Then you have the rumors.
"I heard it was to save some old man's dog."
"Fuck that I'm not dying for some old bastard's dog."

That's what we're dealing with.
"Airmen I intend to put you in harms way doing the Army's job."
"Ok. Why?"
"Uh.... let me get back to you on that."
"I heard it was so some jerkoff could get promoted."
"Fuck that I'm not dying for anyone's star."

Actually Air BAse secuirty isn't an Army role. That is what Secuirty Forces are for. When the Iraq war first kicked off, I was a private who was wondering WTF. But I knew at the time that it was bigger than me. And I understand what you guys are saying. But I believe a fight is a fight, and if somebody is stretched thin and its obvious, everyone else shoul pitch in. For example, my battalion went to West Point to train cadets. This isn't my job, but screw it, I will do it and make the best of it.

[Silver Fox]

Actually Air BAse secuirty isn't an Army role. That is what Secuirty Forces are for. When the Iraq war first kicked off, I was a private who was wondering WTF. But I knew at the time that it was bigger than me. And I understand what you guys are saying. But I believe a fight is a fight, and if somebody is stretched thin and its obvious, everyone else shoul pitch in. For example, my battalion went to West Point to train cadets. This isn't my job, but screw it, I will do it and make the best of it.

lol. I think you may have missed that completely.

I am security forces, I know Air Base Security isn't an Army Role. But it's Joint Base Balad.
Joint, meaning everyone. Including Army. It's not an AIR FORCE Base. Base security is an Army mission, it was not an Air Base. So yes, it was a JOINT MISSION. Given to the ARMY. Unlike Detainee Ops, which is entirely an Army mission. On the reverse of that, securing army base's isn't an Air Force mission, but the Air Force was doing security at CAMP BUCCA instead of Balad. CAMP BUCCA. Not JOINT Base Bucca.

We could have taken Balad back earlier by the way, but the Army insisted we do Detainee Ops instead. Wonder why?

Also, unless I'm mistaken there's an army manual on Air Base Ground Defense, thus, it is an Army mission, just not a widely practiced one, it was enough of a mission that for decades Security Forces were trained by Army instructors on the subject.
However, there is no Air Force Manual on detainee operations.

[502nd]

I would argue the Air Force is feeling the pinch pretty damn hard too. You guys are short, so what? We're all short.

A bigger question I have is why has the Air Force not given these JET/ILO taskings to the guard and reserve? The Air Guard and Air Reserve are still riding pretty fucking cushy right now. I think personally, they should get all the JET/ILO taskings. If anybody is slacking, it's the Air Guard and Air Reserves, who are still deploying on a completley voluntary basis. I think I've heard of one maybe two guard units getting called up. They won't go overseas for these JET taskings, but they'll sure fucking take my place CONUS while I carry both the Air Force's and the Army's deployment work load.

Another gripe: Why does the Army's training suck? You want me to go JET. ok. But why does everything you teach me suck? Seriously I've gotten way better training from the Air Force, but the Army always says my training is substandard and we have to get trained by the Army so I show up and get a bunch of fat asses in the National Guard who don't even do my job or the job I'm deploying to do trying to read a lesson plan with their 3rd grade reading level and I'm sitting their trying not to fall asleep. Then I get into theater and they say "So what did you learn?"
And I answer by singing a modified version of the Edwin Starr Song "War"
"JET! HUA! What is it good for? ABSOLUTELY NOTHIN'!"
"JET! I despise! Cause it means destruction, of my personal life!"

Well in the same sense, I could say who cares that the Air Force is feeling the pich. But I don't, because I persoanlly understand. You guys share in the glory of being in the military at times of war, you can share in the burden of it. I think that the guard and reserve is an Air Force call. My fiance is in the Air Force Reserve and she hasn't deployed since she left active duty. I think they should get tasked too. As far as JET goes, I agree. Personally you can't learn shit worth teaching in three days. I train year round as an infantryman and I honestly wouldn't waste you time for just three days. Three weeks on the other hand, maybe. But at the same time. I believe every service member should know how to fight first and foremost. Because we have to certify every year to be considered combat ready, and that takes three weeks of playing in the woods at JRTC.

[502nd]

lol. I think you may have missed that completely.

I rpobably did, I am tired and I have a 12 miler in a few hours, and at this point, im not even going to sleep


[/QUOTE]Also, unless I'm mistaken there's an army manual on Air Base Ground Defense, thus, it is an Army mission, just not a widely practiced one, it was enough of a mission that for decades Security Forces were trained by Army instructors on the subject.
However, there is no Air Force Manual on detainee operations. [/QUOTE]

Don't get caught up on Army manuals, believe it or not, their is actually a manual on taking a dump. I know, stupid right

[Silver Fox]

Well in the same sense, I could say who cares that the Air Force is feeling the pich

Exactly, and the Army doesn't give a shit, so why should we?


You guys share in the glory of being in the military at times of war,
Not really. We're pretty much completely left out of the media. Especially my job.



you can share in the burden of it.
We are, doing our jobs. I don't see you bitching at Army logistics about not being in the infantry, so why bitch at Air Force logistics about it? Because they're too Air Force?


Personally you can't learn shit worth teaching in three days. I train year round as an infantryman and I honestly wouldn't waste you time for just three days. Three weeks on the other hand, maybe.
It's a month long now, but it doesn't matter, like you said, you train year round, without that type of continuous training... anything short of that is worthless.



I believe every service member should know how to fight first and foremost.
I agree completely and would love nothing more than for the Air Force to have a small group of infantry to support these missions, I'd volunteer in a heartbeat, but we don't.


Because we have to certify every year to be considered combat ready, and that takes three weeks of playing in the woods at JRTC.

The average Airmen won't spend three weeks in the woods his entire career.

[Silver Fox]

Don't get caught up on Army manuals, believe it or not, their is actually a manual on taking a dump. I know, stupid right

But still, the Army was teaching it for Christ's sake.

[502nd]

Guys, the time has just flown by so lets just agree to disagree. But I must say, talking to you guys did make me feel a little better. I respect your opinions and despite what you think, a lot of soldiers do appreciate your help. A lot of soldiers perception has changed about the Air Force thanks in part to your ILO missions. Its my opinion that you guys should be proud that the Air Force can correct people when they say you guys don't do anything. Don't let people come to this site, read these post and assume that you guys are disgruntled that you had to help. I'd rather hear airmen bragging about it. I do apprecaite the fact that this post was professional and we avoided all the bull stereotypes.

Take care

[Shrike]

Well in the same sense, I could say who cares that the Air Force is feeling the pich. But I don't, because I persoanlly understand. You guys share in the glory of being in the military at times of war, you can share in the burden of it. I think that the guard and reserve is an Air Force call. My fiance is in the Air Force Reserve and she hasn't deployed since she left active duty. I think they should get tasked too. As far as JET goes, I agree. Personally you can't learn shit worth teaching in three days. I train year round as an infantryman and I honestly wouldn't waste you time for just three days. Three weeks on the other hand, maybe. But at the same time. I believe every service member should know how to fight first and foremost. Because we have to certify every year to be considered combat ready, and that takes three weeks of playing in the woods at JRTC.
You do that because that is your mission. It ain't mine.

[502nd]

You do that because that is your mission. It ain't mine.

Being prepared to engage the enemy is every servicemembers mission. Its my opinion that a military job that can't fight if needed to should be replaced by civilians. Perhaps we should post this question on Yahoo Answers and let the tax payers give their opinion on it.

[Silver Fox]

Guys, the time has just flown by so lets just agree to disagree. But I must say, talking to you guys did make me feel a little better. I respect your opinions and despite what you think, a lot of soldiers do appreciate your help. A lot of soldiers perception has changed about the Air Force thanks in part to your ILO missions. Its my opinion that you guys should be proud that the Air Force can correct people when they say you guys don't do anything. Don't let people come to this site, read these post and assume that you guys are disgruntled that you had to help. I'd rather hear airmen bragging about it. I do apprecaite the fact that this post was professional and we avoided all the bull stereotypes.

Take care

Anytime, and your points are valid and agree with most of them, I was just trying to help you understand the opinion of the seeming majority. :)

I enjoyed the conversation, seriously, I hope there's more like this. A good, civil debate is always productive.

And trust me, serving with the Army and the Marines has been the proudest achievement of my career, which is why I volunteered.

[Silver Fox]

Being prepared to engage the enemy is every servicemembers mission. Its my opinion that a military job that can't fight if needed to should be replaced by civilians. Perhaps we should post this question on Yahoo Answers and let the tax payers give their opinion on it.

Not sure how that would go, even civillians are familiar with the term "Chair Force".

BUT, again, I actually agree with you on this point. I think everyone, pilot, cook, tanker, infantry, salvage diver, commo, logistics, finance, etc. should be capable of picking up a rifle, falling into an infantry squad and knowing what to do. If I thought that had any hope at all of happening in the Air Force, I wouldn't be getting out. :eek: I've taken flak from just about every AF guy on this forum about my desire to see the Air Force get more involved in ground warfare.

[Shrike]

Being prepared to engage the enemy is every servicemembers mission.
You're referring to ground combat operations, right? Really? Please show me in the Air Force Misson Statement where it says that. Which core competency addresses that? Which of our six disctinctive capabilities talks about that? Of the 17 operational functions of air and space power, which one talks about every airman being ready for ground combat?



Its my opinion that a military job that can't fight if needed to should be replaced by civilians. Perhaps we should post this question on Yahoo Answers and let the tax payers give their opinion on it.

I support you 100%, especially since I'm retirement eligible and could make about $20000-$40000 more a year as a civilian doing the same job.

[Shrike]

Not sure how that would go, even civillians are familiar with the term "Chair Force".

BUT, again, I actually agree with you on this point. I think everyone, pilot, cook, tanker, infantry, salvage diver, commo, logistics, finance, etc. should be capable of picking up a rifle, falling into an infantry squad and knowing what to do. If I thought that had any hope at all of happening in the Air Force, I wouldn't be getting out. :eek: I've taken flak from just about every AF guy on this forum about my desire to see the Air Force get more involved in ground warfare.

Yep, and I'm one of them. If that's the job I wanted, I had not just one, but two choices of DOD branch to join.

I wouldn't join the Navy and complain because I wanted to work on Abrams tanks and didn't get much of an opportunity. I wouldn't join the Marines and say "this ground combat is cool and all, but we don't do enough submarine warfare." I wouldn't join the Army and wonder why we didn't patrol off-shore in boats looking for drug smugglers and rescuing immigrants from over-crowded boats. And I didn't join the Air Force, then raise a stink because I wasn't in ground combat.

[TJMAC77SP]

The average Airmen won't spend three weeks in the woods his entire career.

With the Air Force taken as a whole you are correct. Taking into consideration certain AFSCs (including your own)., wrong.

[TJMAC77SP]

Not sure how that would go, even civillians are familiar with the term "Chair Force".

BUT, again, I actually agree with you on this point. I think everyone, pilot, cook, tanker, infantry, salvage diver, commo, logistics, finance, etc. should be capable of picking up a rifle, falling into an infantry squad and knowing what to do. If I thought that had any hope at all of happening in the Air Force, I wouldn't be getting out. :eek: I've taken flak from just about every AF guy on this forum about my desire to see the Air Force get more involved in ground warfare.

True, some of the flak you take is simply service pride talking but some (mine included) is because sometimes your arguments fail a logic test.

Every airman currently gets this ‘ground combat training’ to the level (hopefully) necessary for their assigned AFSC taskings. Of course it would be great if every Air Force member received training in ground combat operations which would bring them on par with Army units. The problems lies in that every day spent in this training detracts from training and performance of their AFSC duties.

A US Army infantry company (or any other combat arms unit) goes to the field (either at home garrison or some regional/national training center) and trains for three weeks. There are no jobs or tasks that unit has that are going unaccomplished because they are in the field. The garrison is still being protected, supplies are being ordered, tanks are being fixed, food is being prepared, etc.

You take an Air Force unit (even a Security Force unit) to the field and things ARE going unaccomplished (or at least they are not being accomplished at the same level as normal). This is why Air Force ground combat training for most airmen is spotty (admittedly dismal in cases). The Air Force has a totally different job and mission and that has to take priority.

The simple solution is………if you admire the job of ground combat forces to the point that you want to do that full time, join the Army or USMC. I don’t say that with rancor just a sense of reality.

[Silver Fox]

With the Air Force taken as a whole you are correct. Taking into consideration certain AFSCs (including your own)., wrong.

Note I said "Average" from the AF as a whole.

Additionally, including my own AFSC, the average airmen won't spend on average three weeks in the REAL field three weeks in their career.

By field I mean without cots, bedding down, no electricity or any of that b.s. on the march and not going back in to a nice comfy dorm at the end of the day. We dont' know what "field" means in the Air Force, even in security forces. An Air Force cop says "I'm going to the field" and he gets bussed out to a little kill site and spends 45 minutes there, then goes home and eats.


True, some of the flak you take is simply service pride talking but some (mine included) is because sometimes your arguments fail a logic test.

Every airman currently gets this ‘ground combat training’ to the level (hopefully) necessary for their assigned AFSC taskings. Of course it would be great if every Air Force member received training in ground combat operations which would bring them on par with Army units. The problems lies in that every day spent in this training detracts from training and performance of their AFSC duties.

A US Army infantry company (or any other combat arms unit) goes to the field (either at home garrison or some regional/national training center) and trains for three weeks. There are no jobs or tasks that unit has that are going unaccomplished because they are in the field. The garrison is still being protected, supplies are being ordered, tanks are being fixed, food is being prepared, etc.

You take an Air Force unit (even a Security Force unit) to the field and things ARE going unaccomplished (or at least they are not being accomplished at the same level as normal). This is why Air Force ground combat training for most airmen is spotty (admittedly dismal in cases). The Air Force has a totally different job and mission and that has to take priority.

The simple solution is………if you admire the job of ground combat forces to the point that you want to do that full time, join the Army or USMC. I don’t say that with rancor just a sense of reality.

And the glaring error in your statement is the Marines and Army stay combat ready while still accomplishing the mission. There's no excuse the Air Force couldn't do the same. They make it work, we can make it work. They all go to the field too and get the job done, why can't we?

And it's not that i admire ground combat, I respect it. If I were to do anything in the military anymore, that would be it. Instead I'm just saying fuck all of it, because even the b.s. in ground combat units is abotu unbearable to me at this piont, and I'm just getting out of everything all together.

[TJMAC77SP]

Note I said "Average" from the AF as a whole.

Additionally, including my own AFSC, the average airmen won't spend on average three weeks in the REAL field three weeks in their career.

By field I mean without cots, bedding down, no electricity or any of that b.s. on the march and not going back in to a nice comfy dorm at the end of the day. We dont' know what "field" means in the Air Force, even in security forces. An Air Force cop says "I'm going to the field" and he gets bussed out to a little kill site and spends 45 minutes there, then goes home and eats.

I can’t speak for the present as I retired in 2003 but I (and a whole lot of other cops like me) did exactly that (real field conditions) many, many times.

I did get your meaning with ‘average’ though and as I said, I agree. This real issue would be is it relevant to the value of the servicemember?


And the glaring error in your statement is the Marines and Army stay combat ready while still accomplishing the mission. There's no excuse the Air Force couldn't do the same. They make it work, we can make it work. They all go to the field too and get the job done, why can't we?

There is no error. The mission of a combat arms unit is to stay (ground) combat ready. The primary mission of an Air Force unit is to stay (air) combat ready (or support the air combat mission). The training you suggest detracts from that mission. The training the Army and USMC combat arms unit do directly supports their primary mission. That is the difference and why comparing the two is a fallacy and therefore a failure in logic.


And it's not that i admire ground combat, I respect it. If I were to do anything in the military anymore, that would be it. Instead I'm just saying fuck all of it, because even the b.s. in ground combat units is abotu unbearable to me at this piont, and I'm just getting out of everything all together.

I understand your actual motivation for leaving and I respect that. I was never a recruiter or career counselor. If a troop doesn’t want to be in the service they shouldn’t be.

[Silver Fox]

I



There is no error. The mission of a combat arms unit is to stay (ground) combat ready. The primary mission of an Air Force unit is to stay (air) combat ready (or support the air combat mission). The training you suggest detracts from that mission. The training the Army and USMC combat arms unit do directly supports their primary mission. That is the difference and why comparing the two is a fallacy and therefore a failure in logic.

I wasn't referring to infantry units, the Army's and Marine's combat support and combat service support all do field training too, less of it then the infantry but still far more than the AF. I don't think it's unrealistic to hold our finance's combat capability to the standard of the Army's. We're talking basic move shoot communicate.

[TJMAC77SP]

I wasn't referring to infantry units, the Army's and Marine's combat support and combat service support all do field training too, less of it then the infantry but still far more than the AF. I don't think it's unrealistic to hold our finance's combat capability to the standard of the Army's. We're talking basic move shoot communicate.

Well, if we change our basic training to 8 to 12 weeks of infantry training then we would be on par with those types of units.

[AMMO722]

No, you'll probably get promoted to E-9 because you came from the Army. And don't be suprised if Donley and Schwartz come knocking on your door willing to give you handjobs while saying "Anythin' else yoo need, Massa?! We'z all in, Massa. How many Urrmen yoo need to pull ILO, Massa? Yoo say da wurd, Massa!"

[TJMAC77SP]

No, you'll probably get promoted to E-9 because you came from the Army. And don't be suprised if Donley and Schwartz come knocking on your door willing to give you handjobs while saying "Anythin' else yoo need, Massa?! We'z all in, Massa. How many Urrmen yoo need to pull ILO, Massa? Yoo say da wurd, Massa!"

HUH ?!?!?!?!?!

[AMMO722]

Haha. Nah bud, you'll probably lose a grade, but you can gain it back easily. And youll be able to do it without fear of random handjobs :)

[eichampt1]

I don't mean to start up an old post, but after reading some of the post on the Air Force forum, I felt I should. You see, I can't help but read on this forum all of the people who seem to think that the Army is full of dumb soldiers. Granted, we have our share, but we are not alone. While in Iraq, I just came off of a patrol when we started hearing small arms fire and then a large explosion. A few minutes later, we received the call to assist "Wild Blue 6", an Air Force convoy escort platoon who was taking contact on Route Vernon. We mounted up and and arrived on the scene within ten minutes to find some of the most dicked up service members I have ever seen. The lead vehicle was destroyed and not one of those idiots got out of their vehicle to check on the PAX inside. So my team rushed out to check on them while my squad leader attempted to set them into a defensive posture. It was complicated as these guys didn't have a clue about sectors of fire(some of their rounds landed on our JSS, which is marked on the BFT). They didn't know shit about suppressive fires, nor did they know how to change the freq's over to the medevac channel. The convoy leader was freakin out and was of no help to anybody. I had privates leading Air Force NCO's through the fight. After about twenty minutes, the fighting died down and we had another one of our platoons assume site security while we escorted the convoy to Camp Taji. When we got to Taji, the AF lieutenant apologized for freaking out, explaining that they never experienced a fire fight like that(I was personally disgusted by him, but what can you do). Point to this story, my platoon of Infantrymen(a very intelligent group of men actually) were not only highly capable, but they could actually think and react under fire(and I wouldn't trade those guys for any of those "were the smartest" air force types that we saw that night). You see, contrary to popular belief, to be a successfully infantryman, you need a high amount of intelligence, because we don't have the luxury of looking stupid and not knowing what to do when the shit hits the fan. You need to memorize battle drills, know the range and effects of weapon systems and how to employ them, first aid, intelligence gathering and reporting, how to set up use various pieces of communication equipment, spotting enemy emplacements(IED's) and figuring out how to deal with them and more tasks then I can even think about. So you guys can have your asvab score claims. Because I truly believe that soldiers and marines tend to be be able to think more clearer under pressure than your average airman. And I know that some of you will disagree with that as much as I disagree with what I read here. I just wish that the rest of the Air Force had the same mentality that the TACP's and combat camera guys that I worked with displayed.

Oh and by the way, a lot of people join the Army or the Marines because they want a real challenge in their lives. A lot of these guys want to fight for their country, and not just serve it. Today's modern Infantry requires guys who can learn quick and think while the bullets are flying. Every soldier in my infantry company had higher than a 36 GT score (I really don't know how you can graduate high school and receive this low ass score), and any of them could've got into the Air Force, but it just doesn't appeal to most people's definition of a challenge. But don't get me wrong, I am not one of those screw everyone but us types. I know everyone has a purpose and I appreciate the rounds droped as well as my picture looking cool in the newspaper. I just feel that some of you should be the last people to criticize soldeirs and marines.


And somehow you think your opinion is any different than any Soldier that posts on an AF forum? We're good at what we do, you're good at what you do. How hard is that to comprehend? I don't see many soldiers filling AF billets. 90% of what I hear from soldiers is pissing and moaning how 'easy' we have it.

If you search the forums and do a little research, you'll see that you guys berate the AF far more than we berate you.

[Cobra5]

Coming in to an Air Force Forum and telling Airman that Airmen are stupid and cannot perform anything combat based off of limited interaction is like throwing a football to a blind person. It does not make sense.

Coming into an Army Forum and telling Soldiers that Soldiers are stupid and cannot perform anything related to the Air Force based off of limited interaction is like throwing a football to a blind person. It does not make sense.

Why cant we just agree that there are some stupid people in every career field, and there are some smart people in every career field. You have bad apples everywhere. For cryin' out loud...

[silkywilky]

That was a good point. Finaly one straight point made