Navy advancement system

[builderchief23]

Chief Bishop,
Just a line to concur that your article about the advancement system was spot on as far as I am concerned. I also think that the system is broken and needs to be fixed and was glad to see that an article saying so has finally has been printed. I have been trying to make BUCS for five years now and have been a Chief for eight years total. In that period, I have been received my Pennsylvania teaching certificate (I teach my rate at a vocational high school), have worked as a union carpenter for 15 years prior to teaching, have a AS in planning and estimating, finally finished my Bachelor’s degree in education, summa cum laude, graduating last December. I have been deployed to Kuwait and Iraq in 2004-05 and have earned a second warfare device, the FMF, while there. The last 2 1/2 years, I have been facilitating the mandatory E-4 through CPO leadership courses. and I have even been selected to facilitate a international NCO course on board of the USS Mt. Whitney in the Black Sea, quite the out of rate assignment for a Seabee. I regularly perform funeral honor duties to honor our local veterans and have received a NAM in recognition. I received a FLOC for the Black Sea trip. I have attended every Navy school that I can think of to make me more of a valuable asset to my sailors, i.e., CPO management, Career Counselor, CB Operations, Public Works Operations, etc. I thought I had put together a pretty convincing package this past E-8/E-9 board. I was extremely disappointed in the result to say the least. More disappointed to find that 4 out of the 9 BUCs advanced were first time eligible. How can they have had more experience as a Chief than I? And experience in my rate? And leadership? My frustration compelled me to apply for the CWO program, which I did three times, the last two with the highest recommendation of my CO, and recommendation letters from 4 Navy Captains, a CWO3, and an Admiral.

In my years interacting with the sailors in my classes, undoubtedly, there is a clear perception of favoritism in the advancement system. I have always stuck to the Navy IG and explained the Navy system is fair and equitable, and in my experience, I could never truly believe it myself. How can a system make selections and never have to validate to those that did not make it why they picked who they picked? The board is sworn to secrecy and can never disclose why they selected who they did. I have questioned every Master Chief that I have come in contact with and they cannot give me a definitive answer why I have not been promoted. I have even had my record reviewed by a former Master Chief at the Naval Reserve Association. The only thing he could see was that my FITREPS were not written as strong as they could be, and as you said in your article, they are subjective according to the command ranking board. One thing that I was missing was the experience at the Regimental or Division level of higher headquarters. As my time with the teaching unit was ending, I contacted the Seabee detailer to try to secure one of those billets. My three choices were Division, Regiment and the Battalion next in line to be deployed for the second time. I found out that I did not get any of the above. I was detailed to a unit that has smaller amount of members than the unit I left. Hardly a assignment for my experience and expertise and with more responsibility. When I asked why, I was told that the other billets were already filled and the needs of the Navy came first. I certainly understand the needs of the Navy, but what about the needs of an over-twenty Chief trying to make Senior Chief and serve longer. What happened to sailorization and taking care of your troops? Does it stop after you make E-7?

If the Navy has selected those with more experience and leadership than me, I am fine with that, just let me know how to get it and I will. If not, I really think that a Congressional investigation should be put together to change the system to fall more in line with the other services and to take out the "Good Old Boy" perception that is so evident. I hope you keep writing these important articles and hopefully we will get some answers to so many questions.

[WARCRIMINAL]

Builderchief23,

I, too, agree with Chief Bishop's assessment. The system is extremely arbitrary and does nothing to counter command integrity. For the most part, whatever the CMC turns into the CO is "rubber stamped" with no concern, consideration, or questioning of the process that generated the CMC's ranking rationale.

Dale Bishop's article is posted both on Navy Times website (http://www.navytimes.com/issues/stories/0-NAVYPAPER-3684668.php) and Get the Gouge (http://www.getthegouge.com/insider/hottopics/stories.asp?ID=478). They are slightly different so I don't know which one was edited first. Nevertheless, I think you'll find few people that disagree with his assessment.

Regardless of his suggestions, I don't think we'll ever have a system that is full-proof from manipulation.

War Criminal

[WARCRIMINAL]

I may have spoke too soon...

News just in from Navy Times:

"Writer missed the point
I could not disagree more with Dale Bishop [“Missing the point,” Back Talk, Sept. 1]. The Navy is not Lake Wobegone, where everyone can be “above average.”

We want and need selection boards to be able to figure out who the best candidates for promotion are. Forced breakouts make it easier to do that by preventing grade inflation. If someone gets his feelings hurt, too bad.

The evaluation and fitness report process we have now is outstanding. I consider it one of former Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Mike Boorda’s most notable accomplishments.

Cmdr. Forrest Browne

Springfield, Va."

Personally, I think this guy's still missing the point. That, or the truth hurts. I do believe Dale Bishop (Chief Bishop, or whatever he is) stated in his article at the bottom: "For all the system’s imperfections, the evaluation form itself provides concise guidelines for conducting fair, accurate assessments. Perhaps how one interprets or manipulates these guidelines is the issue, not the system."

Read it again Forrest!

[SeaLawyer]

WC,

Not even worth a counter-point. This guy can't even spell Lake Wobegon or abbreviate Commander right... A good indication he's probably one of the aforementioned individuals that can't read eval administration guidelines.

SL

[jeffersj]

I doubt we will ever have a system that is completly impartial.

As for the comment regarding the CO rubber-stamping what the Chiefs recommend via the ranking board, I have also seen it where the CO said that a particular Sailor will be the #1EP, write the eval to match. Couldn't have cared less that when ranked with his peers, the Sailor may have been mediocre at best.

Yes, there are different ways to interpret the instructions. Also, some of us have a wider vocabulary than others, and therefore know different ways to say something with the same meaning when it comes to the write-ups.

Yes, we do need some restrictions on breakouts to prevent the Command from being so lax they give everyone an EP. However, there is nothing that says "would have been an EP but for forced distribution" cannot go into the writeup.

Builder, I understand your fustration. However, that is the way it goes. Even though making E-8 was never a serious career goal for me, I would liked to have been able to go up for it at least once. Instead, I was forced out on HYT before I even had the time in rate to be eligible.

[PAMICH]

Our advancement system is tough, confusing, and in need of overhaul .It was great when you only need to deal with sailors who fit the 5 promotion catagories exactly. It was so easy to drop them in the correct box without too much effort. Now that our Fleets are downsizing, the fewer sailors that we have are higher quality, more educated, more motivated and deciding to take the Navy Career path more serious. With that in mind, now it is harder than ever to be totally fair when a large percent of the sailors are top quality, hardchargers and we need to keep in Navy limits to where they should be ranked. It is time to revaluate the advancement system. The current system makes me shake my head everyday. I see great sailors who want to make the Navy a career and are recognized for their efforts, through awards and sailor of the quarter boards, high scores, duty locations etc... then not get advanced because of billet limitations. While a sailor with problems but in the correct rate gets advanced by getting their name spelled right on the advancement exam.

[jeffersj]

Our advancement system is tough, confusing, and in need of overhaul .It was great when you only need to deal with sailors who fit the 5 promotion catagories exactly. It was so easy to drop them in the correct box without too much effort. Now that our Fleets are downsizing, the fewer sailors that we have are higher quality, more educated, more motivated and deciding to take the Navy Career path more serious. With that in mind, now it is harder than ever to be totally fair when a large percent of the sailors are top quality, hardchargers and we need to keep in Navy limits to where they should be ranked. It is time to revaluate the advancement system. The current system makes me shake my head everyday. I see great sailors who want to make the Navy a career and are recognized for their efforts, through awards and sailor of the quarter boards, high scores, duty locations etc... then not get advanced because of billet limitations. While a sailor with problems but in the correct rate gets advanced by getting their name spelled right on the advancement exam.

Concur on the comment about a Sailor in the right rating and with performance problems getting advanced for simply passing the exam.

Unfortunately, that problem lies squarely with leadership for not counseling the person regarding their performance, both good and bad, documenting that counseling, and then referring to it when it comes time to prepare their evaluations and generate an advancement recommendation.

There was something to be said for either being recommended or not recommended, vice the various blocks you now have to choose from.

[Yggdrasil]

Our advancement system is tough, confusing, and in need of overhaul .It was great when you only need to deal with sailors who fit the 5 promotion catagories exactly. It was so easy to drop them in the correct box without too much effort. Now that our Fleets are downsizing, the fewer sailors that we have are higher quality, more educated, more motivated and deciding to take the Navy Career path more serious. With that in mind, now it is harder than ever to be totally fair when a large percent of the sailors are top quality, hardchargers and we need to keep in Navy limits to where they should be ranked. It is time to revaluate the advancement system. The current system makes me shake my head everyday. I see great sailors who want to make the Navy a career and are recognized for their efforts, through awards and sailor of the quarter boards, high scores, duty locations etc... then not get advanced because of billet limitations. While a sailor with problems but in the correct rate gets advanced by getting their name spelled right on the advancement exam.

There's one simple solution to this problem, but I doubt the Navy will utilize it - we need to do it the way the Air Force does it, and stop dividing advancement into competitive categories by rating.

In the Air Force, everyone in the same paygrade, regardless of AFSC (rating) competes together for advancement to the next paygrade. WAPS has two exams- the job specialty and military knowledge are two seperate exams, but nonetheless, they all compete together. Everyone in the Air Force in a particular paygrade, regardless of AFSC, must cut the same final multiple to make the next paygrade.

So the Air Force ends up not having to deal with a situation where you have that top-notch SH2 who's on top of his game, but can't make SH1... while you have that IT2 who couldn't lead ants to a picnic, picking up IT1 by putting his name on the exam.

Before anyone brings up how slow the Air Force advances, it's not because they compete together. It's because, when you compare WAPS to NEAS (Weighted Airman Promotion System to Navy Enlisted Advancement System), points for service in paygrade, time in service, etc take up a considerably larger portion of WAPS than NEAS; this prevents hard-charging Airman from surpassing the deadweights who have been accumulating those points by sitting in their paygrade. The Air Force still lets their people retire at E5 as well. THIS is why the Air Force advances slower, not because of not breaking down competitive categories.

The main problem with the eval system is that there's only three levels of recommendation on them, with a 16-point difference between each. This is pretty messed up, considering that there is typically a greater difference in performance between the highest ranked EP and the lowest ranked EP, than there is between the lowest ranked EP and the highest ranked MP.

[CUSEFAN21]

Thats why the selections boards needot be made up of civilians not sailors who have the guts to do what is right and select those deserving not like how it is "the good ole buddy network"

[jeffersj]

Thats why the selections boards needot be made up of civilians not sailors who have the guts to do what is right and select those deserving not like how it is "the good ole buddy network"

I see.

Federal civil servants, contractors, or just people off the street?

[Loadmaster]

I would like to thank the latest sitting of the board for releasing the quotas and promoting ZERO AWFC on the FTS side of the house. All flyers had no choice but to convert if they wanted to stay flying. Big thanks for at least now allowing me to finish my BA and no longer worry over my remaining two years left of chasing the carrot....
And for the SOY's, my hats off to a being the best of the best and still come up on the short end of the stick. We know you deserve better!!!

[Yggdrasil]

I would like to thank the latest sitting of the board for releasing the quotas and promoting ZERO AWFC on the FTS side of the house. All flyers had no choice but to convert if they wanted to stay flying. Big thanks for at least now allowing me to finish my BA and no longer worry over my remaining two years left of chasing the carrot....
And for the SOY's, my hats off to a being the best of the best and still come up on the short end of the stick. We know you deserve better!!!

Yeah, my rating is the worst in in the Navy (PS). Less than 1% for all three paygrades during the March 2009 exam - I'm glad I made First before before this shit.

Yet, advancement to PSC was something like 20% from the board for FY09. It's a really sad state of affairs when making Chief is 20 times easier than making Third Class in your rating. It's it must be frustraing for Sailors who stand less than a 1% chance of making Third Class.

What upsets me the most is the fact that all of these ratings are CREO 3. The only ratings that are CREO 1 and 2 are nukes and SPECOPS, and everything else is CREO 3. Yet, the Navy is talking about being finished with downsizing mode and being back into retention mode. WTF??? You want to keep all these people in the Navy when no one can make rate? Now THAT'S a load of BS.

[hcshawk]

I would like to thank the latest sitting of the board for releasing the quotas and promoting ZERO AWFC on the FTS side of the house. All flyers had no choice but to convert if they wanted to stay flying. Big thanks for at least now allowing me to finish my BA and no longer worry over my remaining two years left of chasing the carrot....
And for the SOY's, my hats off to a being the best of the best and still come up on the short end of the stick. We know you deserve better!!!

Not to get into a flame war.....but you DID HAVE A CHOICE. Need to make that abundantly clear. You chose to go AWF, so what can you possibly complain about? FLYING IS NOT EVERYTHING IN LIFE. If you wanted to make rank, you should have stayed your source rate.

Also, how can you blame the "board" for a lack of quotas? They can ONLY create a quota if there's a BILLET to place you into. Since AWFs recently converted and ALL E-7 thru E-9 billets were filled, THERE ARE NO QUOTAS. Simple as that.

If someone misled you and said "advancement quotas are going to be great for AWF", you should go immediately and kick them squarely in the junk. EVERYONE could see the writing on the wall, and there were plenty of tables and graphs to prove it. You converted into a rate with only 500 personnel, E-1 to E-9. With that small a number, AWFs will see no more than one or two CPOs (if any) for years to come.

I turned down the AWS conversion in 2005 and made Chief because of my choice. I also turned down the AWF conversion last year (the ONLY one at my command who did), and they're making 5 Senior Chiefs in my rate this year. I love flying with all my soul, but I also chose advancement over flight pay and per diem.

If you want to take issue with ANYONE, be frustrated with the fact that upper management filled ALL E-7 thru E-9 billets during the conversion. They should have learned from the mistakes of the AWS conversion, and left a few CPO billets empty. That would have allowed a bit more upward progression.

[smarg]

For the most part, whatever the CMC turns into the CO is "rubber stamped" with no concern
This gets back to the spineless officers who have let the CPO "mafia" run things. It all starts at the top. See the thread on "Navy Chiefs and their Khakis." It is educational.

[Battleshort]

This gets back to the spineless officers who have let the CPO "mafia" run things. It all starts at the top. See the thread on "Navy Chiefs and their Khakis." It is educational.

Get back to your AFJROTC class, smarge.

[Yggdrasil]

Not to get into a flame war.....but you DID HAVE A CHOICE. Need to make that abundantly clear. You chose to go AWF, so what can you possibly complain about? FLYING IS NOT EVERYTHING IN LIFE. If you wanted to make rank, you should have stayed your source rate.

Also, how can you blame the "board" for a lack of quotas? They can ONLY create a quota if there's a BILLET to place you into. Since AWFs recently converted and ALL E-7 thru E-9 billets were filled, THERE ARE NO QUOTAS. Simple as that.

If someone misled you and said "advancement quotas are going to be great for AWF", you should go immediately and kick them squarely in the junk. EVERYONE could see the writing on the wall, and there were plenty of tables and graphs to prove it. You converted into a rate with only 500 personnel, E-1 to E-9. With that small a number, AWFs will see no more than one or two CPOs (if any) for years to come.

I turned down the AWS conversion in 2005 and made Chief because of my choice. I also turned down the AWF conversion last year (the ONLY one at my command who did), and they're making 5 Senior Chiefs in my rate this year. I love flying with all my soul, but I also chose advancement over flight pay and per diem.

If you want to take issue with ANYONE, be frustrated with the fact that upper management filled ALL E-7 thru E-9 billets during the conversion. They should have learned from the mistakes of the AWS conversion, and left a few CPO billets empty. That would have allowed a bit more upward progression.

Looks like I'm going to have serious issues real soon. I'm already a PS1, so I'm not directly affected by what happen in my rating last March exam, where advancement was less than one percent for each paygrade E4-E6.

Notice the key word "directly." I'm a classifier right now, so I don't have any junior PS's working for me at this time. However, I go back to the fleet this November. Not sure, but I believe that the ship I'm going to is billeted for a PS2 in addition to my billet. I'm not going to see as many issues as I would have on a carrier or at a PSD, but I'm going to be in a position where I have Sailors who are disgruntled because because they can't make rate. Sitting at E5 for a while before making E6... that, I think most Sailors can deal with, but as to that PSSN who is just trying to get his crow, to that PS3 who's spent years in working parties, swabbing decks, pulping, cranking, and srubbing toilets and wants to finally put that behind him upon making Second Class... we're going to end up dealing with one or two situations here.

1. Quality of work is going to suffer. Face it, it's human nature - people are only going to put into something what they feel they're going to get out of it. No amount to "leadership" or "putting my foot up somebody's ass" is going to change that - because when you start issuing threats, people will only work hard enough to not get in trouble, so now you're just making matters worse.

2. We're going to lose good Sailors. Seriously, when a PSSN or a PS3 is coming up on his EAOS, how do I convince him to stay Navy when advancement is less than one percent? You can only convert to CREO 1 ratings, and sometimes CREO 2 - and unfortunately, the only ratings in the Navy that are CREO 1 and 2 these days are ratings that probably less than 10% of the Navy qualifies for, like nuke and SPECOPS. That not being a factor, the Sailor in question might place more importance on being a PS than being in the Navy - meaning that he would rather get out of the Navy and work in HR as a civilian than convert to another rating in the Navy.

What pisses me off the most is that the Navy claims to be in retention mode, and not the draw down mode any longer. Sorry, but there are far too many ratings that are CREO 3 for this. You can't convince a Sailor to stay in a dead end career. The only way to fix this is to not only continue kicking out the dirtbags, but step it up a bit more. There are far too many good Sailors who can't advance, because the Navy can't seem to put its manning levels and retention goals in synch.

[hcshawk]

Think about how long it takes to make PO3. Several years, right? Manning levels and operational requirements fluctuate often. Four years ago, the Navy may have needed 30 PS2's. Because of a change of manning, drawdown of units, change in deployment schedules, or change of leadership, those billets may get cut to 25. So, you worked your ass off to make PO3, but now everyone is bottlenecked at the top because of changing conditions. What do you want the Navy to tell you? They they'll freeze ALL billets in your rate to ensure YOU have an advancement path? If three ships decom, those billets no longer exist. They can't just create MORE billets on other ships to ensure each and everyone has an advancement opportunity. Predicting advancement for ANY rate is impossible....and no one will do it. That's why there are QUOTAS every year. Things change.

As far as E-7 goes, there's NO WAY that anyone can tell you how many E-7 billets your rate will have 10 years from now.

Don't blow this out of proportion, either. Not EVERY RATE is CREO-3. There are plenty of rates that are CREO-1, and MANY Sailors out there will qualify for them. If advancement opportunities are better in another rate, then SWITCH. A rate is not a death sentence. I've seen far too many people bitch about advancement opportunities, but turn their nose up at the notion of a rate change. Why?

[jeffersj]

Yeah, my rating is the worst in in the Navy (PS). Less than 1% for all three paygrades during the March 2009 exam - I'm glad I made First before before this shit.

Yet, advancement to PSC was something like 20% from the board for FY09. It's a really sad state of affairs when making Chief is 20 times easier than making Third Class in your rating. It's it must be frustraing for Sailors who stand less than a 1% chance of making Third Class.

What upsets me the most is the fact that all of these ratings are CREO 3. The only ratings that are CREO 1 and 2 are nukes and SPECOPS, and everything else is CREO 3. Yet, the Navy is talking about being finished with downsizing mode and being back into retention mode. WTF??? You want to keep all these people in the Navy when no one can make rate? Now THAT'S a load of BS.

For all you know this year the quotas for active duty PS Chiefs may be zero. You won't know that until the active duty board convenes in late June/early July (forget which). I've seen fluctuations going from the only thing a Second Class in a particular rating had to do was show up for an exam not suffering from CRS and make rate to rates/ratings being so over-populated a plane full of folks in a particular rate and rating could go down with loss of everyone onboard and you still couldn't advance.

As to the issue about retention and making rate, just possibly the ones the Navy wants to keep are the ones that are quality personnel, and are motivated enough to try new things to grow professionally instead of saying "I'm a PS, that's all I care about, go away". Same way in the civilian market. You either learn new skills and be prepared to migrate with the work as things change or get ready to face unemployment.

[Yggdrasil]

For all you know this year the quotas for active duty PS Chiefs may be zero. You won't know that until the active duty board convenes in late June/early July (forget which). I've seen fluctuations going from the only thing a Second Class in a particular rating had to do was show up for an exam not suffering from CRS and make rate to rates/ratings being so over-populated a plane full of folks in a particular rate and rating could go down with loss of everyone onboard and you still couldn't advance.

As to the issue about retention and making rate, just possibly the ones the Navy wants to keep are the ones that are quality personnel, and are motivated enough to try new things to grow professionally instead of saying "I'm a PS, that's all I care about, go away". Same way in the civilian market. You either learn new skills and be prepared to migrate with the work as things change or get ready to face unemployment.

The quotas for PSC this year will be irrelevant to what I'm saying, because I'm talking about all of the advancements during SAME FY - that is, FY-09. In FY09, it was more difficult to make PS3/PS2/PS1 than it was to make PSC.

I think that comparing the civilian world to the Navy is apples and oranges. If, for example, someone worked in marketing for FedEx, he might be expected to learn skills in HR or accounting in order to keep his job; but I seriously doubt that anyone is going to ask him to go out to the hangar and repair FedEx aircraft. And if someone did tell him, "We're taking you out of marketing. You can learn to repair our aircraft, or there's the door," I'm sure he'd be more than happy to walk.

At the end of the day, a person's trade defines him more than the organization that he works for. I advanced in a CREO 3 rate, and I have a rating relevant degree - so I expect to be safe in my rating, when I have to submit a PTS request. If, God forbid, I'm told to "convert or get out," the only ratings I would consider converting to are AG, MC, and fleet NC - fleet NC being the only one that's CREO 2. Outside of that, I'd definitely walk.

[Yggdrasil]

Think about how long it takes to make PO3. Several years, right?

For who? Most Sailors should make PO3 first time up. If not, a Sailor who is making a legitimate effort should make it by the second or third time up. I made it the second time up. And I had a year and a half in when I was frocked to PN3. Some CO's won't even allow a Sailor to reenlist if they haven't made PO3. Still, many - if not most - Sailors impose a standard upon themselves that they will not reenlist unless they make PO2; I, being one of those Sailors during my first term.

If it takes you "several years" to make PO3, it's taking you too long.


Manning levels and operational requirements fluctuate often. Four years ago, the Navy may have needed 30 PS2's. Because of a change of manning, drawdown of units, change in deployment schedules, or change of leadership, those billets may get cut to 25. So, you worked your ass off to make PO3, but now everyone is bottlenecked at the top because of changing conditions. What do you want the Navy to tell you? They they'll freeze ALL billets in your rate to ensure YOU have an advancement path? If three ships decom, those billets no longer exist. They can't just create MORE billets on other ships to ensure each and everyone has an advancement opportunity. Predicting advancement for ANY rate is impossible....and no one will do it. That's why there are QUOTAS every year. Things change.

None of the above. What I'm saying is that the Navy is talking about being finished with the draw down mode, and being in retention mode - when it looks like there's still far too much work to be done in the drawdown mode before they switch to retention mode.

Trust me - this isn't about ME advancing. I cut a perfect 80 on the exam to make PN2, and a 73 on the exam to make PS1 (when advancement was only 2%) - and the ony reason I didn't cut an 80 on the PS1 exam was because I didn't study, assuming that I was still "mathematically" eliminated from reaching the final multiple. I'll cut an 80 on my Chief's exam, and complete my MBA before my first board convenes, as well as get certified SPHR, and I've got the evals - so again, this isn't about ME, this is about the people that I will have to lead when I get back to the fleet. The only thing I can do is help them get the scores - which I've been successfult at doing in the past, but when advancement is less than 1%, scores don't matter since even a perfect 80 won't put them over the final multiple (it took me five times to make PS1, because the first four times, cutting an 80 wouldn't have mattered).


As far as E-7 goes, there's NO WAY that anyone can tell you how many E-7 billets your rate will have 10 years from now.

I've never claimed otherwise.


Don't blow this out of proportion, either. Not EVERY RATE is CREO-3. There are plenty of rates that are CREO-1, and MANY Sailors out there will qualify for them. If advancement opportunities are better in another rate, then SWITCH. A rate is not a death sentence. I've seen far too many people bitch about advancement opportunities, but turn their nose up at the notion of a rate change. Why?

I'll say it again - for the most part, the only ratings that are NOT CREO 3 for E6 are nukes and SPECOPS - and I'll throw the CT community in there as well. Again, these are ratings that probably less than 10% of the Navy is qualified for. Hell, probably less than that. Hell, do you honestly think that your average CS or SH, for example, would be qualified for those jobs? Common sense - people are in those ratings for a REASON - that reason being, they didn't qualify for much else (there are some far and few in between situations of that not being the case for CS, but I've never ONCE seen that not be the case for SH).

[hcshawk]

If it takes you "several years" to make PO3, it's taking you too long.

Several years didn't mean you've taken the PO3 test several times. "Several years" means you've been in the Navy for about three years. That's more than enough time for manning levels and requirements to change in your rate. You could enlist in a rate in 2006, and by 2009, that rate could be jammed for various reasons. It's like turning the Titanic....just takes time to make something as big as Navy manpower to react to changes in manning requirements.


Trust me - this isn't about ME advancing. I cut a perfect 80 on the exam to make PN2, and a 73 on the exam to make PS1 (when advancement was only 2%) - and the ony reason I didn't cut an 80 on the PS1 exam was because I didn't study, assuming that I was still "mathematically" eliminated from reaching the final multiple. I'll cut an 80 on my Chief's exam, and complete my MBA before my first board convenes, as well as get certified SPHR, and I've got the evals - so again, this isn't about ME, this is about the people that I will have to lead when I get back to the fleet. The only thing I can do is help them get the scores - which I've been successfult at doing in the past, but when advancement is less than 1%, scores don't matter since even a perfect 80 won't put them over the final multiple (it took me five times to make PS1, because the first four times, cutting an 80 wouldn't have mattered).

So then you switch to a different rate that does have advancement opportunites, or you get out. Looks like you're more than qualified to survive on the outside.

And if you do stay in and eventually make Chief, that will be your challenge...the same challenge faced by many Navy leaders before you....to explain to Sailors why they aren't advancing in their rate, especially when they ace the test and have done nothing wrong. Believe me, I saw PLENTY of 9999 numbers on profile sheets before, and it's disheartening. Why try? People want to give up....but you can't let them.

Until the Navy revamps and redesigns the entire advancement process, things will be status quo. Interesting, since that's what this thread was originally about...;)