CNO: Future Navy needs more minority admirals

[CommunityEditor]

The Navy’s top admiral has set “benchmarks” for the percentage of nonwhite admirals he’d like to see in the service within 30 years, according to a set of internal Navy messages that appeared Thursday on the Internet. The messages direct subordinates to use the guidelines in considering which officers to recommend for promotion.

Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Gary Roughead has set goals for an admiralty in 2037 that is 36 percent nonwhite — specifically, 10 percent black, 13 percent Asian or Pacific Islander and 13 percent Hispanic, according to an e-mail to admirals dated Feb. 27. The message was signed by Vice Adm. John Harvey, who was then chief of naval personnel. Harvey has since become director of the Navy Staff.

Capt. Jack Hanzlik, spokesman for Chief of Naval Personnel Vice Adm. Mark Ferguson, said the benchmarks were unofficial and emphasized they are not quotas. They reflect projected trends for those groups in the U.S. population, Hanzlik said, with the idea that the makeup of the Navy’s officer corps should mirror American society.

Commanders should keep those percentages in mind as their nonwhite subordinates make career decisions, Harvey wrote, in keeping with the Navy’s larger goals of increasing diversity in the mostly white officer corps. The message tells admirals that they should know their nonwhite commanders and captains by name; asks what the recipients are doing to help the nonwhite O-5s and O-6s get promoted; and what their commands are doing overall to help promote the nonwhite officers.

A conservative Navy blogger, who posts under the name “cdr salamander,” obtained Harvey’s e-mail and posted it Thursday. Also posted was an e-mail from the office of Navy Installations Command, directing captains to pass up the names of O-5s and O-6s in a “must promote” or “early promote” status and note which ones were “diverse.”

Navy sources confirmed the messages were authentic. A spokesman for the National Naval Officers Association, the largest U.S. group of minority Navy, Marine Corps and Coast Guard officers, did not respond to a request for comment by Friday afternoon. Spokeswomen for Roughead did not respond to requests for comment.

According to information from the Defense Manpower Data Center, provided for a Sept. 9 congressional hearing into Coast Guard diversity, about 13.9 percent of the Navy’s officers, or 7,137 of 42,343 officers, identified themselves as belonging to minority groups.

In the third quarter of this fiscal year, manpower officials report 8.19 percent of officers are black, 5.73 percent are Hispanic and 3.98 percent are Asian-Pacific Islander. In the admiralty, that drops to 6.5, 1.2 and 0.4 percent, respectively.

Roughead has been outspoken in recent weeks on the issue of diversity. In a list of preapproved quotations sent to Navy public affairs officers earlier this month, Roughead endorses a variety of approaches for attracting more nonwhite officers:

“I believe the policies that we have in place have to attract and be consistent with the type of force we have, but they also need to take into account what motivates young people and what causes them to want to serve and then continue to serve.”

Harvey’s message cites Roughead’s “benchmarks” as the example commanders should follow in increasing diversity in the Navy officer corps, which Roughead and other top commanders have set as a top priority. To that end, Roughead has conducted “diversity reviews” of each of the Navy’s major commands — including the surface, aviation and submarine forces — to get a sense of how well the careers of nonwhite officers are progressing. The Navy has declined to release the results of Roughead’s reviews, or talk generally about diversity in the different warfare commands.

Each Navy division has its own “benchmarks” for officer diversity, Harvey wrote, but at the O-5 and O-6 level, commanders should follow Roughead’s percentages.

“This goal is what you should measure your officer corps against. There is no need to create a new benchmark; certainly the benchmark itself should be a discussion topic, but no need to create a new goal that differs from CNO’s stated targets.”

Roughead first spoke publicly about the diversity reviews in a July appearance before the NNOA in which he charged white commanders with mentoring their subordinates to point them in the right direction. In particular, too few black lieutenant commanders were staying in the Navy and going on to become senior officers, Roughead said, so their commanders should counsel them about what jobs are likeliest to get them promoted.

But Roughead told Navy Times after that speech that the diversity reviews were “quasi-formal,” without the involvement of Navy Personnel Command or statistical breakdowns about numbers and names of officers.

Roughead told Navy Times he was “loath” for his diversity reviews “to turn into some kind of bureaucratic process.”


Article: http://www.navytimes.com/news/2008/09/navy_diversity_092208/

[tarheelsnipe]

I would like to see this email in its entirety. Diversity is a great idea, and I've seen its positive impact during my service; making a crayola box for the sake of being PC in upper echelon of the world's most powerful Navy might not be in the best interest of the sailors under their charge.

Googling this email now...

[ProSwo]

Please, at least in the SWO community we don't have enough people to fill our ranks as is. As an officer of any race, it is appalling to see what we're promoting in order to just try and keep enough bodies. As a white office who can now only compete for 64% of flag billets, it makes me wonder if the Navy really wants me, or whether I should contribute to the personnel hemorrhage.

[Variable Wind]

Lets base everything on ethnic diversity as opposed to merits. Sounds like a great way to run a country into the ground.

[SeaLawyer]

Now here's the problem! I think the CNO should be saying, "Future Navy needs more qualified admirals." How does an individual's external compositions make him a better admiral then the one with internal skill sets like knowledge. If these type of demographics are a weighted factor, then I think the Navy needs more war amputees etc. to fairly represent our demographics.

[CplH5811]

Well, we can't forget about the vertically challenged. I don't believe that there are any midget flag officers out there. Being Politically correct for the sake of "creating more diversity" is not something as can be applied in the US military. But, if you want to that kind of stuff, it should go all across the board. Don't be hypocritical and do it towards once religion, race or sex.

[james]

As a serving "minority" myself, I would like to see more officers or flag officers representing a wider representaion of society. None the less I think that just promoting minorities or the majority to a position to which they are unqualified for creates resentment, belittles their standing with their peers and puts the mission of our Navy at stake to Commanders incompetence. This is not Hollywood where every flag officer or military leader is depicting a minority in charge. This is the real world where lives are at stake and our national security is dependent on Commanders proper judgement. It makes people wonder if we are going in this direction because of the current Presidential race of color. Affirmative action simply does not work or belong in the enlisted ranks or officer ranks. As I say this, politicians being who they are will demand and impose these requirements on our military whether we agree with it or not. Liberal agendas at their best.

[Measure Man]

Note that the timeline is 30 years!

This is fair. The question isn't that the Navy should promote less than qualified people to Admiral because they represent diversity.

We should ALWAYS promote the most qualified...but to truly fight discrimination we need to dig deeper.

If the most qualified are all white...we need to ask "Why are minorities not qualifed?...is it because they aren't being selected for career-broadening positions at the 0-4, -5, -6 levels? If that's the case, fix it there...if it's because there aren't enough qualifed at that level...look down...why aren't there minority officers qualified at that level?

If the problem is that there just aren't enough minorities entering as officers...why is that? Are we only recruiting white officers?

Basically...where does the demographics become out of whack with the civilian sector...your problem is most likely one level lower. If we are recruiting a proportionate amount of minorities...then we are probably discriminating them in field grade selections/positions. Then, if they don't get those positions, they become not qualified at senior level positions.

I'm not sure Adm Roughhead's approach is necessarily the right one...but his timeline is right...this isn't a problem you correct by simply hiring the most qualified minorities to be Admirals,...it is a problem you solve by developing minorities over the long term to be qualified to be Admirals.

[Measure Man]

Please, at least in the SWO community we don't have enough people to fill our ranks as is. As an officer of any race, it is appalling to see what we're promoting in order to just try and keep enough bodies. As a white office who can now only compete for 64% of flag billets, it makes me wonder if the Navy really wants me, or whether I should contribute to the personnel hemorrhage.

Your math is interesting...

I don't think expecting a fair proportion of minorities in senior positions means that you are "only competing for 64% of flag billets."

If that were right..then blacks are only competing for 10%...Asians for 13%...etc.

I'm pretty sure that's not what it means...what it means is that if 64% of Americans are white, you should expect 64% of Admirals to be white...just a proportion...doesn't mean you are limited to that number or that your individual opportunity is any less.

Well, I guess if currently 95% of the flag billets go to 64% of the people...then yes, maybe your opportunity might be less...but not unfairly less.

[Variable Wind]

As a serving "minority" myself, I would like to see more officers or flag officers representing a wider representaion of society. None the less I think that just promoting minorities or the majority to a position to which they are unqualified for creates resentment, belittles their standing with their peers and puts the mission of our Navy at stake to Commanders incompetence. This is not Hollywood where every flag officer or military leader is depicting a minority in charge. This is the real world where lives are at stake and our national security is dependent on Commanders proper judgement. It makes people wonder if we are going in this direction because of the current Presidential race of color. Affirmative action simply does not work or belong in the enlisted ranks or officer ranks. As I say this, politicians being who they are will demand and impose these requirements on our military whether we agree with it or not. Liberal agendas at their best.

Very well put. I agree.

[jeffersj]

There is nothing wrong with having the makeup of the flag ranks (or the Wardroom or the enlisted ranks) reflect the make-up of society at large.

However, there is something wrong with selecting a person who may be lesser qualified than someone else just because they happen to be the right gender or ethnic make-up. Doing that does a disservice to the person being put into the job and to the country as a whole.

Yes, in the past there were less opportunities for some to get the training and assignments needed to move up in the ranks. That was wrong, plain and simple. Selections boards have, and need to continue, to be aware of that fact in looking at candidates for advancement until such time as it can be determined that everyone had a fair shot at the "career-enhancing" assignments and so forth, and they did more in that assignment than just get "face time" and "punch a ticket" on their way up the ladder.

[james]

While I do agree that we need to adress the issue of discrimination in the ranks, it must be the individual who knows he is fully qualified and above his peers to lead that fight. I simply do not beleive that the majority should be leading a fight because of political reasons or quotas. Speaking from experience, I ashamed and disgusted when I see senior enlisted and officers in positions which they simply do not warrant or are qualified at all in the minority ranks inculding females. The only reason most of those individuals are in the postion they are in is because of quotas or command fear and reprisal from groups like the NAACP or NCLU. Leadership is something that one should aspire to earn and learn from, not from opportunistic policies that favor some. I hear it all the time, " I did not get selected because of my skin color or because of my gender", then force the hands of the powers to be to promote them or a lawsuit EEO complaint will be filed. Of cousre, no command or politician wants bad publicity or labels as biased or disciminatory. And what happens, promotions abound for unqualified or zero leadership skilled "leaders" in ranks. The Navy suffers, but most of all the command personnel who look up to these people for guidance and leadership. Leadrship must be earned and learned, not given.

[james]

While I do agree that we need to adress the issue of discrimination in the ranks, it must be the individual who knows he is fully qualified and above his peers to lead that fight. I simply do not beleive that the majority should be leading a fight because of political reasons or quotas. Speaking from experience, I ashamed and disgusted when I see senior enlisted and officers in positions which they simply do not warrant or are qualified at all in the minority ranks inculding females. The only reason most of those individuals are in the postion they are in is because of quotas or command fear and reprisal from groups like the NAACP or NCLU. Leadership is something that one should aspire to earn and learn from, not from opportunistic policies that favor some. I hear it all the time, " I did not get selected because of my skin color or because of my gender", then force the hands of the powers to be to promote them or a lawsuit EEO complaint will be filed. Of cousre, no command or politician wants bad publicity or labels as biased or disciminatory. And what happens, promotions abound for unqualified or zero leadership skilled "leaders" in ranks. The Navy suffers, but most of all the command personnel who look up to these people for guidance and leadership. Leadrship must be earned and learned, not given.

[WARCRIMINAL]

And everytime I see an Admiral from now on, I'm going to question their competence wondering: Were they selected for their ability or nationality. This alone causes hesitation in my execution of their orders! It further continues my questioning of the system. Do we have to allocate promotions according to demographics? If this is the case, then it’s a selection board integrity issue. Skin color should NEVER have to be a consideration if we’re in an “Equal Opportnity” environment. That said, why does the military continue to ask ethnicity questions on official paperwork for entry, promotions, etc.? This should be an obsolete issue if we are truly concerned about “most qualified” and not most diversified.

[Variable Wind]

While I do agree that we need to adress the issue of discrimination in the ranks, it must be the individual who knows he is fully qualified and above his peers to lead that fight. I simply do not beleive that the majority should be leading a fight because of political reasons or quotas. Speaking from experience, I ashamed and disgusted when I see senior enlisted and officers in positions which they simply do not warrant or are qualified at all in the minority ranks inculding females. The only reason most of those individuals are in the postion they are in is because of quotas or command fear and reprisal from groups like the NAACP or NCLU. Leadership is something that one should aspire to earn and learn from, not from opportunistic policies that favor some. I hear it all the time, " I did not get selected because of my skin color or because of my gender", then force the hands of the powers to be to promote them or a lawsuit EEO complaint will be filed. Of cousre, no command or politician wants bad publicity or labels as biased or disciminatory. And what happens, promotions abound for unqualified or zero leadership skilled "leaders" in ranks. The Navy suffers, but most of all the command personnel who look up to these people for guidance and leadership. Leadrship must be earned and learned, not given.

Exactly, I hate the fact that if you are an opponent of Affirmative Action or the ACLU then it means that you cant stand the "colored folk". No the best way to make your race/ethnicity/whatever look good is by being the guy that they WANT to go to in a pinch. It works for anything. You are a representation of everything, because humans are stereotypical by nature. You represent your race, occupation, religion, even the clothes you wear to an extent. Take pride in yourself and dont be stupid.

[OleChief]

Wow this is where my Navy has gone. The Question that should be asked is why is there an Admiral for every ship? I stated ten years ago that we would be building ships with handicap access soon enough. So once we do that do will need quotas for Homosexual, Minority, Transvestite, Mormon red heads? This is not a 9 to 5 job at a corporation that we get to go home every night. The best of the best should be promoted and that should reflect Integrity and merit based on performance not who was your mother or father. Sad, Sad, Sad.

[WARCRIMINAL]

Wow this is where my Navy has gone. The Question that should be asked is why is there an Admiral for every ship? I stated ten years ago that we would be building ships with handicap access soon enough. So once we do that do will need quotas for Homosexual, Minority, Transvestite, Mormon red heads? This is not a 9 to 5 job at a corporation that we get to go home every night. The best of the best should be promoted and that should reflect Integrity and merit based on performance not who was your mother or father. Sad, Sad, Sad.

Well said, OleChief!!!

[MPLisa]

It is likely that Gary Roughead is spewing this liberal drivel because he sees a post-Navy career in the Barak Hussein Obama White House. If so, then Roughead is a wingnut.

Whatever happened to the idea that the Navy is a meritocracy, as opposed to ethnicocracy???

Promote the most qualified - wasn't it Dr. King who admonished us to judge a man by his character and not the color of his skin? Gary, Gary, hellloooooo, McFLY!!!!!????!!!!

[Measure Man]

Exactly, I hate the fact that if you are an opponent of Affirmative Action or the ACLU then it means that you cant stand the "colored folk". No the best way to make your race/ethnicity/whatever look good is by being the guy that they WANT to go to in a pinch. It works for anything. You are a representation of everything, because humans are stereotypical by nature. You represent your race, occupation, religion, even the clothes you wear to an extent. Take pride in yourself and dont be stupid.

So...if you wake up one day in 2008 and look over your Admiral corps...and say to yourself.."holy cow...the Admirals in the Navy are 100% white male"...

You just shrug and say..."huh...what a coincidence"...and press on?

Or do you do something?

[kojack]

Its another form of racism, pushed by the black racists on the congressional black caucus. WE have all worked for outstanding minority commanders and too often the inept minority officer or NCO who was placed not based on ability but skin color.

We need to ensure that the education and opportunity is there and that includes getting minorities to understand and accept the values of success and citizenship. Hey racists on the congressional black caucus are you listening????!!!!

[Variable Wind]

So...if you wake up one day in 2008 and look over your Admiral corps...and say to yourself.."holy cow...the Admirals in the Navy are 100% white male"...

You just shrug and say..."huh...what a coincidence"...and press on?

Or do you do something?

I hear you, of course you would try to find out why. But you dont leave out the possibility of the fact that it may just be a coincidence. Now if you find out that people are being held back because of their race, thats one thing, but you dont set timetables to force people into leadership positions who may not be ready yet or not qualified. E.O. I believe should only be there if someone is holding your career back simply because they feel that your gender or race disqualifies you.

[MPLisa]

Kojak - I am afraid your appeal to the Congressional Black Caucus will fall on deaf ears. And think about this, what if there was a Congressional White Caucus? Do you think that group would be allowed to exist? No way. We need to face the unfortunate fact that American now has a purposeful double-standard, and that to level the playing field, everyone is required to dumb-down, rather than smarten up.

Thanks Gary Roughead, for being another paving stone on the road to destruction of the United States.

[GSE]

Its good that the CNO wants more minority officers, but that shouldn't be the case we should just get rid of the minority category all together we are raised in the navy to believe that there is only 1 color navy blue. Get rid of that check box and just promote highly qualified individuals not just in the officer community but also in the enlisted community.

[NavyNima]

Its good that the CNO wants more minority officers, but that shouldn't be the case we should just get rid of the minority category all together we are raised in the navy to believe that there is only 1 color navy blue. Get rid of that check box and just promote highly qualified individuals not just in the officer community but also in the enlisted community.

You bring up a good point that the Navy should look for qualified individuals - and I certainly think the Navy is trying to head in that direction with their Officers. I work with the Navy with their new site called www.mynavymyfuture.com, and they're looking for highly qualified and educated individuals who are interested in becoming Officers. The programs' qualification is very strict, so it's certainly not easy to be accepted into their program.

[Variable Wind]

You bring up a good point that the Navy should look for qualified individuals - and I certainly think the Navy is trying to head in that direction with their Officers. I work with the Navy with their new site called www.mynavymyfuture.com, and they're looking for highly qualified and educated individuals who are interested in becoming Officers. The programs' qualification is very strict, so it's certainly not easy to be accepted into their program.

The navy is definitely NOT heading in the right direction if this article and mindset are any indication.

[NavyNima]

The navy is definitely NOT heading in the right direction if this article and mindset are any indication.

I think the article wasn't fully clear with its message though. While the Navy may be looking to promote more minorities as Officers, their requirements for eligibility are still tough. For example, the CEC program (http://www.mynavymyfuture.com/money.html) requires for students to maintain at least a 3.0 GPA all through college to be eligible for the Officer program.

[james]

Part of the problem with this type policy trying to be enforced or directed, is that many commands or services think of one particular group when minority's are mentioned. The other groups are dismissed due to a person of darker color brings more visibility to EO and basically shuts up the Al Sharptons and Rev. Jackson up. The other groups are left to fend for themselves, there are quite a few senior officer and senioren listed that are of hispanic origin but are very fair skinned that they can easily pass for caucasians or in some instances are make white officers look like the minority. Asian Americans suffer from this too. females are almost a given for promotion to keep quotas up and if she is dark skinned, the better it makes the services or command look good. This policy in itself is reverse racism and very counter productive to good leadership, but this does not matter to political members that drive these policy's so as long as they can smile and BS their constituents as fighting the fight for equality without quality.

[ty5486]

I think the biggest problem with statements such as those made in the memo is that they remove credibility from any minority person that succeeds. As soon as someone says "we need more people over 6 feet tall in command" every person over 6 feet tall that is in command will have that question mark by their name. The question will be asked, and not just once, "did he/she only get command because they're over 6 feet tall?" But I suppose that that is the basic problem will all things EO and affirmative action.

[Variable Wind]

I think the biggest problem with statements such as those made in the memo is that they remove credibility from any minority person that succeeds. As soon as someone says "we need more people over 6 feet tall in command" every person over 6 feet tall that is in command will have that question mark by their name. The question will be asked, and not just once, "did he/she only get command because they're over 6 feet tall?" But I suppose that that is the basic problem will all things EO and affirmative action.

Yup. Its a two way street to nowhere.

[jeff3166]

I'm for the concept of promoting the most qualified candidates to Admiral, regardless of color/race.

Best I remember, the business of the Navy is national defense, and therefore having the most qualified personnel wearing a star or stars, regardless of color/race, would do a great service to this country.

[ty5486]

It's interesting, I looked at the latest slated for post Div-O submariners...there's a job on there that is "minority recruiting" in New York I think it was. Since when did we recruit not based on qualifications? Whatever happened to those immortal words "I have a dream that one day men will be judged not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."

[Sneezyone]

The desire to increase minority representation at the senior officer level is admirable but the CNO is missing the boat on this completely. My own decision not to go to OCS, and my discussions with friends who are minority officers is revealing in just how little senior leaders know about this group they're trying to recruit/maintain. Unlike non-college educated enlistees, SUPPLY and DEMAND does not work in the military's favor here. Minority college graduates typically have many other, more lucrative options available to them. Sure, some will join as O-1s, get their loans repaid or fulfill their ROTC obligations but then, by O-3, those incentives are gone. At that point, you start to weigh the lack of ideological friendliness/mentoring as you progress up the chain and the decision becomes clear/easy why should you stay? You can get out, make 50-75% with 100% less hassle and live a solidly upper-middle class life.

DH and I have this discussion every year it seems. He's already got his bachelor's and master's (while on AD, with high honors). He applied for STA-21 and OCS twice before making Chief in his 10th year. He's got other options that he can and probably will exercise. The military's not the only game in town. If the military really understood, ppl. like DH would be picked up as PO3/2/1s for STA-21 or OCS and talent would be grown from within. Instead they're trying to compete with corporate America for talent and it's a losing battle. The pay is just not competitive.

[MBIVEY007]

This is seriously the stupidist thing I've seen in the Navy. The Navy doesn't NEED more minority admirals, or minoritys in an targeted area or broad area for that matter. I'm not racist. In fact, it seems that I'm one of the few in today's society that is completly blind to the color of a person's skin, their gender, or ethnicity. If a white person is the best qualified to do the job, then THAT person is the one who needs to be doing it. If a black person is best qualified, then THAT person is the one who needs to be doing it. In order to completely eliminate racism and sexism we need to not even think about or consider those factors when making decsions. Give me one good reason why a black person deserves a job over a white person?!? That's racism if I ever saw it. It's racism against whites. People are taking political correctness much too far. There was not calling people of different ethnicitys by offensive names. Ok. Good. But PC to the degree that it is today has absolutely no place in any professional or educational environment. The racism that exists can't be eliminated by adopting a universal policy of affirmative action. Acts of racism and discrimination need to be taken care of on a case by case basis. If they are occuring in a profesional environment then the perpatrators need to be punished. Don't punish me because I'm a white male that isn't racist. To tell the truth, all affirmative action does for me is makes me feel different from blacks and other minoritys. It seperates me from them. If I didn't know better I would feel resentment toward them.
Some say the problem is that not enoough minoritys are being targeted for recruitment. Ok, so go target some. Don't forget the white people that want to join and advance; don't punish them. And damnit, don't you dare waive any minorities for things that you wouldn't waive for a white person just so they can enter the military. Don't favor a minority for promotion over a white. Don't even set quotas or benchmarks. Let what will happen happen! Why can't you just let nature take its course? Doesn't the Navy have more important problems to deal with right now other than minorities and uniforms?? Wouldn't it be wiser, more efficient and productive to work on the problems with all the ships. How many times has the San Antonio had to be repaired??? Let's work on getting the discipline of junior sailors (like myself) up to what it should be. Military standards. I recently graduated from Basic and A School and can say I was and am embarrased by the complete lack of military bearing and discipline shown by far too many of my peers. It makes me not even want to be a part of this Navy. I feel this way after some parts of the PBS documentary Carrier too. Luckily for me I'm a reserveist and very proud to be apart of the NOSC that I'm stationed at. The good people I serve with there are a good example of what the Navy should be. Why don't we correct this instead of worrying about making a Crayola box of flag officers??
Further with affirmative action... weather they admit it or not it occurs where my father works. There are black people in leadership positions at his company that make some of the stupidist decisions I've ever heard of not because they are black, but because they are NOT QUALIFIED for the position at which they are currently employed. To prove that I'm not racist a friend and co worker of my father's who is black shares the same opinion. He, too, sees what's happening and the very negative effect that affirmative action has on the company.
I've read and heard far more against AA than I have for it. So why does leadership continue to implement it?? I just wasted I don't know how much time writing this because I feel very strongly on this and DON'T want to see the greatest Navy ruined by stupid decsions such as the CNO's.

[PAMICH]

There is only two colors in our Navy. Morning colors and evening colors.

[Measure Man]

This is seriously the stupidist thing I've seen in the Navy. The Navy doesn't NEED more minority admirals, or minoritys in an targeted area or broad area for that matter. I'm not racist. In fact, it seems that I'm one of the few in today's society that is completly blind to the color of a person's skin, their gender, or ethnicity.

You very well may be completely blind to race...however, unless you've had your head in the sand, you must realize that many in society are not blind to race.


If a white person is the best qualified to do the job, then THAT person is the one who needs to be doing it. If a black person is best qualified, then THAT person is the one who needs to be doing it.

Precisely. However...when you are presented with the fact that of 500 applicants...the 100 qualified applicants are all of the same race, gender and/or religion...is that worth looking into?


In order to completely eliminate racism and sexism we need to not even think about or consider those factors when making decsions. Give me one good reason why a black person deserves a job over a white person?!? That's racism if I ever saw it. It's racism against whites. People are taking political correctness much too far. There was not calling people of different ethnicitys by offensive names. Ok. Good. But PC to the degree that it is today has absolutely no place in any professional or educational environment. The racism that exists can't be eliminated by adopting a universal policy of affirmative action.

Look...like it or not...racism is real. If not at the highest levels, possibly at the next lower level, or at enough places that it results in inequitable development of minorities. I don't think anyone asked for nonqualified minorities to be promoted...he asked for leaders to look at the development of minority officers....to see if they were being institutionally eliminated from developing into qualified candidates...so that after 30 YEARS there might be a more sensical racial diversity among senior leaders.


Acts of racism and discrimination need to be taken care of on a case by case basis.

It's pretty easy to discriminate against people on a case-by-case basis...if that happens over and over again, you end up where we are...with most all General Officers of the same race, religion or other trait. That's some of the problem...it's easy to knock out any individual candidate...if you do that repeatedly, you end up where we are. The question is...why are minority candidates repeatedly eliminated on a case-by-case basis?


If they are occuring in a profesional environment then the perpatrators need to be punished. Don't punish me because I'm a white male that isn't racist. To tell the truth, all affirmative action does for me is makes me feel different from blacks and other minoritys. It seperates me from them. If I didn't know better I would feel resentment toward them.

Understood...it's funny that one of the most outspoken critics of affirmative action is Clarence Thomas...not to put words in his mouth...but i believe he's position was that no matter what he accomplised in life, he felt there are some that would attribute it to the fact that he was given preference due to his race.


Some say the problem is that not enoough minoritys are being targeted for recruitment. Ok, so go target some. Don't forget the white people that want to join and advance; don't punish them. And damnit, don't you dare waive any minorities for things that you wouldn't waive for a white person just so they can enter the military. Don't favor a minority for promotion over a white. Don't even set quotas or benchmarks. Let what will happen happen!

Again...great in theory if everyone was blind to color...that is NOT reality. But, I do agree that standards should be standards, regardless of race, gender, religion, etc. I don't think anyone is suggesting that standards should be lowered for minorities.


Why can't you just let nature take its course?

...because it has proven that racism is real.


Doesn't the Navy have more important problems to deal with right now other than minorities and uniforms?? Wouldn't it be wiser, more efficient and productive to work on the problems with all the ships. How many times has the San Antonio had to be repaired??? Let's work on getting the discipline of junior sailors (like myself) up to what it should be. Military standards. I recently graduated from Basic and A School and can say I was and am embarrased by the complete lack of military bearing and discipline shown by far too many of my peers. It makes me not even want to be a part of this Navy. I feel this way after some parts of the PBS documentary Carrier too. Luckily for me I'm a reserveist and very proud to be apart of the NOSC that I'm stationed at. The good people I serve with there are a good example of what the Navy should be. Why don't we correct this instead of worrying about making a Crayola box of flag officers??

...working on both are not mutually exclusive


Further with affirmative action... weather they admit it or not it occurs where my father works. There are black people in leadership positions at his company that make some of the stupidist decisions I've ever heard of not because they are black, but because they are NOT QUALIFIED for the position at which they are currently employed. To prove that I'm not racist a friend and co worker of my father's who is black shares the same opinion. He, too, sees what's happening and the very negative effect that affirmative action has on the company.
I've read and heard far more against AA than I have for it. So why does leadership continue to implement it?? I just wasted I don't know how much time writing this because I feel very strongly on this and DON'T want to see the greatest Navy ruined by stupid decsions such as the CNO's.

I don't think he is calling for affirmative action...once again...Clarence Thomas is one of the biggest opponents of affirmative action...not sure how that proves you are not a racist...but I understand your position. However...acknowledging that there ARE racists out there, does not equate to reverse discrimination.

[Bootstraps]

I’m a former enlisted Marine that is currently an undergraduate senior at the University of California at Berkeley. I joined the Corps at 17, leaving behind alcoholic parents, and a drug infested community that had been hollowed out by year after year of industry being shipped overseas or simply outmatched by foreign competitors. While in the Corps I worked hard, followed all lawful orders, and did fairly well. After five years of service I accepted an Honorable Discharge and returned to hometown USA with GI Bill in hand. After two years of community college during the day while waiting tables at night I transferred to what many consider to be the finest public university on earth.

While here I have continued to study hard, and say no to drugs and irresponsible drinking. Now in my Senior year, I was recently accepted into the Navy’s Bachelor Degree Completion Program and am headed to OCS upon graduation. Is the value of my achievements in anyway heightened or diminished by the happenstance of my race or ethnicity? Am I to be judged by the content of my character or by the color of my skin? How am I or anyone else served by bureaucracy that is not completely color blind?

Some call Horatio Alger a myth that is symbolic of the lie that is meritocracy; that one’s destiny has more to do with involuntary membership to externally visible criteria – I disagree. I believe that the glory of the American Dream is that it can be had by all that are willing to put in the work. Anyone that would impede or assist another in their pursuit of the dream based upon an individual’s membership to an involuntary group is to me misguided. Although it has not always been so, I truly believe that achievement and success in America today is open to all regardless of race, ethnicity, religion, gender, or sexual orientation. I am saddened and embittered to see that the Navy seems to have chosen to recognize anything other than hard work, sacrifice, loyalty, innovation, and excellence as criteria for assistance to the upper echelons of power. I am left wondering now if there is somewhere better that my principles, loyalty, and ideas about America might be better served and or placed.

[Measure Man]

Am I to be judged by the content of my character or by the color of my skin? How am I or anyone else served by bureaucracy that is not completely color blind? .

If the "system" (which is made up of people) were completely color blind...then this wouldn't be an issue would it?

[Variable Wind]

If the "system" (which is made up of people) were completely color blind...then this wouldn't be an issue would it?

Not necessarily. Sometimes people see what isnt there. Im not saying this is the case here...but it could be.

[Bootstraps]

Measure Man:

I believe you are implying that because the bureaucracy is made up of fallible people, and that amongst some of these people there are racists, then (by logical extension) the assistance of some to the upper echelons of power based upon their involuntary membership to certain racial categories – is warranted. If this is not what you’re saying, then please correct me. If it is, then I have this to say in response:

Anyone that would impede or assist another based upon their membership to an involuntary group is to me misguided. The abstract threat of individual bureaucrats impeding the career advancement of someone that is racially different than them, to me, does not warrant the official sanctioning of an environment where our differences as individuals are not determined by our differences in character, but by our involuntary membership to certain racial categories.

While I have no doubt that specific instances of racism occur, I do not think that the remedy to these wrongs is an increased emphasis on race. Rather, I believe that our leadership should tirelessly insist upon the utter irrelevance of things that we as individuals cannot control (i.e. race, who our parents were, gender etc.). The speed with which we ascend must be based upon things like hard work, sacrifice, loyalty, innovation, and excellence – not upon that which we cannot control. Our goal here should be the creation of a society (and a Navy for that matter) that views the world in terms of rational cause and consequence, rather than in a perpetual series of class conflict. After all, “…we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed...”

[fenway]

I don't know what bootstraps ethnic make up is but can't you call his story an example of sucsess,

It seems to me that "the system" has treated him well and he has earned his sucsess.

I hope that as he goes forward he enjoys continued advancement and opportunity.

the reason we have few minority admirals may be that in a free society minorities make other choices particularly educated minorities.

[MPLisa]

In my 20 years of Navy service, I can't recall ever witnessing racism, or it's aftermaths. I didn't observe much in the way of "glass ceilings" either. What I did witness was a lot of stories like Bootstrap's, including my own. After having been in the private sector now for 10 years, I can honestly say that the Navy was a great melting pot - and a true meritocracy. As for racial epithets, the only times I heard the word "N_____" uttered, was by young men of color - who evidently believe they rate the honor to use that word. (P.S. at first I spelled out that word, but figured the Page Editor would probably nix its use herein (PC PC))

[Sublime Paralytic]

I stated ten years ago that we would be building ships with handicap access soon enough. So once we do that do will need quotas for Homosexual, Minority, Transvestite, Mormon red heads? This is not a 9 to 5 job at a corporation that we get to go home every night. The best of the best should be promoted and that should reflect Integrity and merit based on performance not who was your mother or father. Sad, Sad, Sad.

Wow, so I qualify for 3 of the categories you mention above... are you saying that because I'm a red-headed, transvestite Mormon, I wasn't promoted because of my good looks but rather because of a quota?

[Variable Wind]

Wow, so I qualify for 3 of the categories you mention above... are you saying that because I'm a red-headed, transvestite Mormon, I wasn't promoted because of my good looks but rather because of a quota?

we are trying to keep you carrot tops out of the military.

[Booter3rd]

So...if you wake up one day in 2008 and look over your Admiral corps...and say to yourself.."holy cow...the Admirals in the Navy are 100% white male"...
You just shrug and say..."huh...what a coincidence"...and press on?
Or do you do something?

Depends on your opinion of "Do Something" is...

Perhaps an investigation of sorts, if white males were putting on stars before more qualified minority candidates, then a severe ass-kicking up and down the chain is warranted.

However, say the 100% white male Admirals were all the best qualified, and are in their position by merit, and merit alone? Would you support promoting a less qualified minority just to give you a warm fuzzy?

Two wrongs hardly make a right here...

[MBIVEY007]

Yes, I would shrug and say "huh...what a coincidence" and press on. Who cares if there are any minority admirals? I'm gonna get a "warm fuzzy" feeling from knowing that I have competent commanders, but I'm not going to get one knowing there is a box of crayons leading me. F*** that, and f*** them! I'm tired of this bullshit. Everyone wonders why the world is going to hell. I'm here to tell you it's stupid people makeing stupid decisions and bending over for greedy people that just want to have power and money handed to them without earning it.
I don't care if 100% of our admirals are white, and I don't give any more of a damn if they are 100% black. I care about what's IMPORTANT: how competent the leadership is! I wish I was President: I would not tolerate this crap. I wouldn't tolerate affirmative action or racism anywhere federal $ are spent, that policy would hold true in the military, other gov. sectors, and places like GM and Chrysler.

[Silver Fox]

Lets base everything on ethnic diversity as opposed to merits. Sounds like a great way to run a country into the ground.

It was a great way to elect a president apparently...

[Sailordad]

I am a sailor's Dad and an a scientist /engineer with 40 years of experience working for NAVSEA and NAVAIR on weapon systems including Tomahawk, Aegis, F/A-18, DD-21, DDG-51, DDG-1000 and many Studies for Strike, Air Defense and Surface Warfare Ways Ahead.

In addition, I am a father of a Navy SEAL.

My simple view is that the NAVY, and the Nation have very serious challenges to survival in the twenty first century, and require the very best talent to address these challenges. To state that Diversity is a top goal, vice Excellence is a foolish , if not politically correct, commitment to failure.

In war failure brings death without respect to diversity selected leaders or goals..

[smarg]

I am a sailor's Dad and an a scientist /engineer with 40 years of experience working for NAVSEA and NAVAIR on weapon systems including Tomahawk, Aegis, F/A-18, DD-21, DDG-51, DDG-1000 and many Studies for Strike, Air Defense and Surface Warfare Ways Ahead.

In addition, I am a father of a Navy SEAL.

My simple view is that the NAVY, and the Nation have very serious challenges to survival in the twenty first century, and require the very best talent to address these challenges. To state that Diversity is a top goal, vice Excellence is a foolish , if not politically correct, commitment to failure.

In war failure brings death without respect to diversity selected leaders or goals..

Tell that to the millions of morally and ethically bankrupt fatherless welfare children that infest our cities, now represented by a person of the same background as our President. ;)

[kojack]

The congressional black caucaus of racist hypocrites doesnt express rage over Americas biased professional sports teams which are predominately black(complete with gang appearance and behavior). Why dont we see the "celebration of the tapestry of rich cultural diversity" on the professional sports fields? Where are the Korean Americans, the Asian Americans, the Hispanic Americans, the European Americans, the Native American in the appropriate percentages they arefound in society and d population?! I watch a game and I dont see a rainbow of diversity. All I see is black and hypocrisy and many of our cultures being DENIED an opportunity to compete!

[Yggdrasil]

I hear just as many claims of reverse racism as I do racism, if not more.

Well, to expand on what one person earlier said about only thinking of one particular ethnicity when "minority" is brought up, the only two minorities who are likely to grow up at a disadvantage are blacks and Latinos.

Other minorities, such as Asians (particularly the ones born and raised in the States), are less likely to face racial discrimination, as white society at large is more likely to treat them as one of their own. Many sociologists often discuss Asians' "model minority" or "honorary white" status. From my own observations, however, Filipinos would probably be the only exception to this.

I just want to add, however, that nowhere in the message did it say anything about promoting people based on race. Already, it appears that white non-Hispanics are actually underrepresented among Navy officers (I believe they said 64%, when they actually make up about 73% of the US population.), and Asians are overrepresented. Blacks are only slightly underrepresented, but appear to be the closest in reflection to the general US black population.

They did mention, however, that they were worried about too many black officers getting out at Lieutenant Commander - which means that there could be some underlying issues there. No matter what the beliefs are that most of you expressed here, I'm sure that most would agree that the reasons why so many black officers are separating at the Lieutenant Commander level are at least worth looking into.

At the end of the day, like I said, I don't see anywhere where it says anything about looking at race when making selections for promotion. I see this message as maybe trying to inspire minority officers to stay Navy and strive for those stars, because he'd like to see them make it.

[WILDJOKER5]

Reverse Raceism = Acceptence.

[WILDJOKER5]

The congressional black caucaus of racist hypocrites doesnt express rage over Americas biased professional sports teams which are predominately black(complete with gang appearance and behavior). Why dont we see the "celebration of the tapestry of rich cultural diversity" on the professional sports fields? Where are the Korean Americans, the Asian Americans, the Hispanic Americans, the European Americans, the Native American in the appropriate percentages they arefound in society and d population?! I watch a game and I dont see a rainbow of diversity. All I see is black and hypocrisy and many of our cultures being DENIED an opportunity to compete!

You dont watch much Hockey nor Baseball do you? Both are "lacking" in the african heratige.
Basketball and football are heavily african, but you are forgetting about soccer too.
Tennis, Golf.

[Yggdrasil]

You dont watch much Hockey nor Baseball do you? Both are "lacking" in the african heratige.

Only if you mean black non-Hispanic. Because outside of that, those Wesley Snipes-looking Dominicans are running baseball!


Basketball and football are heavily african, but you are forgetting about soccer too.
Tennis, Golf.

Soccer, only if you're talking about the US. Soccer is the sport with the world's largest fan base - and it has the largest fan base in just about every country but the US. If you know any blacks from the Caribbean or Africa, they're among the best people to play soccer with.

[ET1(SS) Keith]

somehow i'm not surprised at the underlying animosity on this post. now let's see if i can word my thoughts out correctly. the reason we're such a great military is because we have people that come from all walks of life. just take a look at one division, any division. i'm sure you'll see plenty of diversity in there. sure, maybe some divisions will have more of one race than another, but those people still came from different places around the states, with a huge difference in how they grew up. and it's one of my personal sayings, different people will react to different things in different ways. yes, some people came from severe disadvantages and overcame adversity and did great things. other people were handed everything in life, got all the right teaching, yet still fail. i've known some people who were great on a personal level, but i just couldn't work with them professionally. . now, this is just my personal opinion. everything is up to the individual. everybody is definitely NOT cut from the same piece of cloth. and that gets forgotten in so many of these arguments. and i'm not talking about race. i'm talking about train of thought, comprehension ability. not everybody thinks the same. for some people, they can walk in the navy and fly up the ranks to master chief in 16 years. some people work their brains out and still retire as E-6's. i know we've all heard the phrase "this job ain't for everyone." yes, there are plenty of people out there who fit the bill. the simple truth is that we all want the most qualified and competent people to be leading us, but unfortunately, that doesn't quite always work out that way. after seeing a few things with my own eyes, i'm thoroughly convinced that the military is just one big game of favorites, and it doesn't really matter if a person has all the right tools for the job, but who they rubbed the right way on their way to the top.

[Measure Man]

Depends on your opinion of "Do Something" is...

Perhaps an investigation of sorts, if white males were putting on stars before more qualified minority candidates, then a severe ass-kicking up and down the chain is warranted.

However, say the 100% white male Admirals were all the best qualified, and are in their position by merit, and merit alone? Would you support promoting a less qualified minority just to give you a warm fuzzy?

Two wrongs hardly make a right here...

Neither the CNO nor I suggested at any time that someone less qualified should be promoted over someone more qualified.

ASSUMING here that the best qualified have been promoted to admiral...the next step is peel back that onion and ask "why are all the best qualified the same race and gender" That is what this article is about...note the goal is over 30 years. No where did he suggest we promote minority candidates over more qualifed while males.

No one is BORN qualified to be an admiral...it is a combination of ability, education, training, etc.

So...if only one race and gender are qualified...is it because of one of those? Is it because of recruiting? Why is it? If we are not arbitrarily discriminating in the hiring of admirals...are we maybe arbitrarily discriminating in the education and/or training of them..or in recruiting them?

That is all the CNO is asking...senior leaders to look at whether or not minority candidates are being developed with white male candidates...

[smarg]

Silly people. This will all be moot in about 40 years, when the latinos become the majority population. This is also the predicted time when our central governments collapse due to parasitism, corruption, and no rule of law.

[WILDJOKER5]

Only if you mean black non-Hispanic. Because outside of that, those Wesley Snipes-looking Dominicans are running baseball!
Dont understand, "Wesley Snipes-looking Dominicans". They might be good but in % wise, there isnt the "diversity" that people are looking for. Last all-star break the media was making a fuss of how the African race is lowering in the playing of pro-baseball.




Soccer, only if you're talking about the US. Soccer is the sport with the world's largest fan base - and it has the largest fan base in just about every country but the US. If you know any blacks from the Caribbean or Africa, they're among the best people to play soccer with.

Yeah, just talking about the US sports. Those are the only ones that really have the hang up on racial diversity issues.

[ty5486]

Listen, the Navy is the only force with minority recruiting requirements. When the CNO implies that COs may mentoring their JOs and DHs based not on need and ability, but on some sort of racial preference... I'm offended. Oh, that's not what he was implying you say... then what are you saying? Could it be that the Admiral selection board is racist? Or that the thought of promoting a minority, (or woman) because you need them in higher ranking positions for leadership... that's problematic as well. The offshoot of all the conversations of this vein is to remove credence from all minorities that are selected for positions of leadership. Maybe it's the Navy's focus on tracking the race of each and every sailor that is the problem. We all know that there are only two reasons for photos in any promotion package: to visually represent the individual's physical fitness (are they fat?) and provide indication of heritage (are they and EO opportunity?) I say it's the focus on race instituted by the Navy that is the problem. Take all photos out of all packages and let the chips fall where they may.

[kojack]

Look at the Army today. Its promoting women to general officer level that are CLUELESS and even dangerous. However, its looks great on the liberal media news hour, plus it makes the quota numbers look good. who cares about the mission, leading soldiers and winning battles? Its about looking PC for the dem-nazis

[Yggdrasil]

Listen, the Navy is the only force with minority recruiting requirements. When the CNO implies that COs may mentoring their JOs and DHs based not on need and ability, but on some sort of racial preference... I'm offended. Oh, that's not what he was implying you say... then what are you saying? Could it be that the Admiral selection board is racist? Or that the thought of promoting a minority, (or woman) because you need them in higher ranking positions for leadership... that's problematic as well. The offshoot of all the conversations of this vein is to remove credence from all minorities that are selected for positions of leadership. Maybe it's the Navy's focus on tracking the race of each and every sailor that is the problem. We all know that there are only two reasons for photos in any promotion package: to visually represent the individual's physical fitness (are they fat?) and provide indication of heritage (are they and EO opportunity?) I say it's the focus on race instituted by the Navy that is the problem. Take all photos out of all packages and let the chips fall where they may.

Yeah, the Navy does NOT have minority recruiting requirment. The Navy has goals for "wickets," but they're not required to be met. As well, these goal are only for "uppers" - in other words, blacks, hispanics, etc who cut below a 50 on the ASVAB don't count toward the wicket goal. The difficulty of meeting so many of these wickets is why you have so many blond-haired blue-eyed Native Americans in the Navy (recruiters asks, "Do you have any American Indian in you?" The applicant responds, "Well, my great great great great grandfather was fulll-blood Cherokee..." - and the recruiter checks that as this applicants race in the DD 1966.

[forcedj]

The Navy doesn’t need ‘more’ minority admirals, it needs fewer admirals in general. Based on info that I recently read on the Navy Historical Center’s website, we have more admirals and fewer ships and sailors than we did in 2002. We actually now have more admirals than we have ships. (U.S. Code normally allows 216 Navy flag officers. However, the code also allows the president to increase that number during war and times of emergency.)

Year----------- Fleet Size-----Admirals------Total Manning
2002------------313-------------216------------ 383,198
2008------------280-------------303------------ 332,436

So, if it’s determined that we do indeed need to raise the percentage of minority admirals, simply reduce the number of non-minority admirals (through attrition).

[CDE]

The number of flag officers is not driven by the number of ships, its driven by authorized billets. This includes Joint billets because when an Admiral gets appointed and approved for a Joint job it leaves one less Admiral to fill a Navy job. The President can ask for the extra Flag/General Officers (FOGOs) but Congress still has to approve those appointments. POTUS can't simply blink his eyes and wiggle his nose to make FOGOs.

While one part of the challenge is getting more minorities to become officers, the other part of the challenge is making the job of being an Admiral attractive. Personally, I have no interest in becoming an O-7 (years and years from now). Insane travel schedule, undesirable work hours, and politics.....no thank you.

[forcedj]

No, those numbers I quoted above do not include Admirals in joint billets. Those are strictly Admirals in Navy billets. Throw in the joint Admirals and we're even farther out of whack. It’s understood that the number of Admirals is not driven by the size of our fleet. I just used that as a comparison. Still one should question why there are currently more Admiral billets 'authorized' while the overall Navy has shrunk (fleet size and total manning). If you look in the Navy League’s annual almanac that lists all of the Admirals and their billet titles, many of those titles are so obscure that it’s hard to understand exactly what the position entails. It makes you wonder if it is something that requires a flag officer or if it is something that could be handled by a CAPT or even a CDR.

[Yggdrasil]

It makes you wonder if it is something that requires a flag officer or if it is something that could be handled by a CAPT or even a CDR.

Well... that would probably depend on the ranks of other officers assigned to the command. If there are other RADM's there, then one would need the appropriate rank in order to be in charge of these RADMs.

[squeezeandcrush777]

This is a very interesting subject, considering my sister is in the navy, and we are a minority. Personally, i have mixed feelings about the origin of this thread. Its good that they want to see more minority in higher positions, but at the same time, if they wanted them there now, they would be. People can say what they want about this kind of stuff, but if people do not want minorities high up, they wont have them, point blank period. I am in the process of joining the service also, and i just want to be under someone who can lead. Color shouldn't matter cause every race has very well qualified people for any position anywhere in the military. If they are qualified, put them in, simple as that.

[PRYORRB]

I don't believe that the Navy or Armed Forces needs more minority admirals. I believe that we need more qualified leaders. Leaders who don't mind taking a risk, and leaders who realize that sometimes it's more important to have someone who takes risks that for someone who is unwilling to stick their neck out. I don't mean that we need people who take uncalculated risks, but I feel to many people are to afraid to try new ideas in fear of losing their career.

I also believe that the idea of saying we need more of one race in leadership position is wrong. I believe we should focus on the qualification of the individuals, not the color of their skin. However, if highly qualified people are passed over by virtue of the color, religion, etc. then that is a crime not only against the individual but against the Navy in general.

:cheers:

[PRYORRB]

This is a very interesting subject, considering my sister is in the navy, and we are a minority. Personally, i have mixed feelings about the origin of this thread. Its good that they want to see more minority in higher positions, but at the same time, if they wanted them there now, they would be. People can say what they want about this kind of stuff, but if people do not want minorities high up, they wont have them, point blank period. I am in the process of joining the service also, and i just want to be under someone who can lead. Color shouldn't matter cause every race has very well qualified people for any position anywhere in the military. If they are qualified, put them in, simple as that.

I had the opportunity to go through CMEO class, and this topic was brought up. More senior officers aren't minorities because, first fewer of them joined twenty or thirty years ago. Two, because there were fewer then they had even fewer "mentors" to look up to. It is going to take time to have minority leaders, because it takes almost thirty years to make admiral. The day will come when we will see more minority leaders, but it's gonna take time.

[squeezeandcrush777]

I had the opportunity to go through CMEO class, and this topic was brought up. More senior officers aren't minorities because, first fewer of them joined twenty or thirty years ago. Two, because there were fewer then they had even fewer "mentors" to look up to. It is going to take time to have minority leaders, because it takes almost thirty years to make admiral. The day will come when we will see more minority leaders, but it's gonna take time.

I understand, but speaking on behalf of myself, i dont need a mentor. not saying that im too good. just i never felt like i needed one. i succeeded in school just fine, and am making my way to the force on my own. and my generation will never be as sturdy as the men 20-30 years ago. God is the only mentor i can say i've had. If you have the drive for something, you will push with everything inside of you to get it. I did. so i do understand what your saying. but i dont feel that not having mentors cause for fewer minorities in high ranking positions.