NCOs need to step up - emergency on horizon

[Combat correspondent]

I just read a thread about retention which brings me to my theory on why we are suffering!

The NCO corp is failing!

I have a wife, 3 kids and a dog, and I still find time to invest in my Airmen. Let me cite an example of what I believe an NCO should do - and I don't think I am anything above normal - just I take my service seriously.

While stationed in Okinawa, I had 2 stinky, nasty Airmen. Time and time again I talked to them about hygiene and they never seemed to get it. Finally, I had enough and one Saturday morning I threw on swim trunks, packed up some soap, shampoo, wash rag, boot polish and headed out the door. My wife thought I was crazy.

I pounded on one of their door and woke him up - then told him to go get his friend A1C Nasty. I brought A1C Nasty and A1C Stinky and we all crammed into Stinky's head. I got in the shower and demonstrated how they should take a shower --- starting w/ shampoo, moving onto soap --- the whole 9 yards. A1C Nasty started laughing at one point. I lost it on him and let him know we'd be doing the same thing at 0600 the next day - which we did.

Next day, Sunday, we did the same routine. And, after our shower class, we brushed teeth together. After that we ironed our cammies together. After that, we polished our boots together. Believe me, there was no smiling or laughing on Sunday.

And, until I PCSed to my next base, A1C Stinky and A1C Nasty were beacons of hygiene and had sharp uniforms and boots.

It's all about what the NCOs and SrA are willing to do, and actually do for their subordinates - the future of the Air Force rests on us!

[VFFSSGT]

Sorry, NCO's are not here to raise kids because their parents failed them. If you want bath airmen, help yourself. If counseling and verbal instructions didn't sink in then they obviously have issues and have no business in the military. And speaking of NCO's failing...some of it is because Amn see Staffs and even Techs as personnel with no real authority because SNCO's and Officers are increasingly micro-managing. There is not just one group or corp failing - it is widespread among all ranks.

[Combat correspondent]

Sorry, NCO's are not here to raise kids because their parents failed them. If you want bath airmen, help yourself. If counseling and verbal instructions didn't sink in then they obviously have issues and have no business in the military. And speaking of NCO's failing...some of it is because Amn see Staffs and even Techs as personnel with no real authority because SNCO's and Officers are increasingly micro-managing. There is not just one group or corp failing - it is widespread among all ranks.

Agreed on SNCOs and Officers micromanaging...BUT, if a SNCO or Officer does that to me I kindly ask them to stay out of my lane, sir or ma'am, this is NCO business. If it persists, I persist. Leadership goes up hill and down hill and sometimes SNCOs and Officers need to be reminded of their roles.

And, incase you missed my point - sometimes treating them like kids DOES work as they were never nasty and always had spit-shined boots and pressed cammies ---- as I mentioned earlier. So, in a nutshell, it DID work! I wonder how you would have managed with your counseling statements? Just saying.....I have to wonder!

VFFSSGT: Mold these kids, sir, m'am or whatever you are! I suppose your a Staff Sergeant. Well, whatever you are, mold them - give them your time and your energy and it will pay huge dividends. But, don't take my word for it ---- go try it yourself.

[BigBaze]

I just read a thread about retention which brings me to my theory on why we are suffering!

The NCO corp is failing!

I have a wife, 3 kids and a dog, and I still find time to invest in my Airmen. Let me cite an example of what I believe an NCO should do - and I don't think I am anything above normal - just I take my service seriously.

While stationed in Okinawa, I had 2 stinky, nasty Airmen. Time and time again I talked to them about hygiene and they never seemed to get it. Finally, I had enough and one Saturday morning I threw on swim trunks, packed up some soap, shampoo, wash rag, boot polish and headed out the door. My wife thought I was crazy.

I pounded on one of their door and woke him up - then told him to go get his friend A1C Nasty. I brought A1C Nasty and A1C Stinky and we all crammed into Stinky's head. I got in the shower and demonstrated how they should take a shower --- starting w/ shampoo, moving onto soap --- the whole 9 yards. A1C Nasty started laughing at one point. I lost it on him and let him know we'd be doing the same thing at 0600 the next day - which we did.

Next day, Sunday, we did the same routine. And, after our shower class, we brushed teeth together. After that we ironed our cammies together. After that, we polished our boots together. Believe me, there was no smiling or laughing on Sunday.

And, until I PCSed to my next base, A1C Stinky and A1C Nasty were beacons of hygiene and had sharp uniforms and boots.

It's all about what the NCOs and SrA are willing to do, and actually do for their subordinates - the future of the Air Force rests on us!


No people are getting out because they have lost faith in top tier Air Force leadership. Need I go into the Thunderbirds fiasco, Boeing tanker screwup, the botched ABU and PT gear? Couple that with the fact that there is not enough money to provide our airmen with the things they need to do their job, but there is money to keep Tops in Blue around, and to outfit MPFs around the Air Force with plasma TV's. Airmen have been filling out countless surveys, sat through countless visits by upper tier leadership asking them how to make the Air Force better, and their ideas have fallen on deaf ears.

As for you in the shower with a couple of your airmen, I am not even going to go into that. You say you had to show them how to use shampoo and brush their teeth..how to iron their uniform and polish their boots? They went through basic and tech school and suddenly forgot how to do that ?? (or decided they weren't going to do it anymore) Those are not airmen I would trust working a 50 million dollar jet, or would want watching my back on a convoy. I had one certain A1C who was the exact same way, would not bathe. He would wear the same BDU top every day. I walked into his dorm room for inspection and nearly threw up from the smell. He was ordered to take a shower by myself, the shop NCOIC, flight chief, Chief, OIC, shirt and finally commander, in succession. The commander told him to come to his office the next day with a new uniform, showered and shaved. He returned the next day looking the same, smelling the same and wearing the exact BDU top with the same stain on it. Personal hygiene is taught to someone when..like when they can walk and talk as a child??? Isn't part of being in the military about having high standards?


Back to my first point. I don't know how things are out their in the combat correspondance field but the reason I lost several of my outstanding troops when I was in the maintenance world was simple. They were tired of coming in every day and being run into the ground by Pro Supers and maintenance officers whose one and only goal was to pad their MC rates and drive stats up, and flight chiefs who just wanted to "get along" with leadership. You can have all the best intentions towards your young troops, but at the end of the day the SNCO's are going to have their way. And if you have a bunch of uncaring, self minded ones, look out. That being said I have always encouraged my airmen that want to get out to try another base first before they separated or crosstrain, (which I have done, and am quite happy)

[johca]

Sorry, NCO's are not here to raise kids because their parents failed them. If you want bath airmen, help yourself. If counseling and verbal instructions didn't sink in then they obviously have issues and have no business in the military. And speaking of NCO's failing...some of it is because Amn see Staffs and even Techs as personnel with no real authority because SNCO's and Officers are increasingly micro-managing. There is not just one group or corp failing - it is widespread among all ranks.I agree the Air Force has become a civil service technician work force that wears a uniform and has titles and pay corresponding to military rank and grades. Most members lack any willingness to obtain and sustain minimum weight and fitness standards. Asking them to wear a uniform on a Monday that requires giving appearance of being in the Air Force or requiring the providing of military courtesy results in whining and crying of unfair means of enforcing discipline and building pride in the military services.

I’m disappointed the emergency NCOs are being informed to step up to is strengthening the NCO support channel to strengthen willingness to correct careless and lax performance of minor hygiene and other administrative matters rather NCOs duties and responsibilities pertinent to unit combat readiness and personal combat readiness of each and every enlisted member in the unit.

When I read “NCOs must step up-Emergency on the horizon”, I think National Emergency, National Crisis requiring military response. This is immediately followed with understanding Military authority as put in place by the Constitution establishes the President, as commander in chief, commands the armed forces. It extends through the combatant commands until command authority terminates at its lowest level, the line NCOs.

Being an NCO is much more than strength of willingness to do something for their subordinates. Line NCO command authority is inherent by virtue of position to direct or control a team to accomplish a mission having a military goal or military objective.

Military leading includes the authority to organize, direct and control assigned team members so that they accomplish assigned missions. Military leading includes authority to use assigned equipment and resources to accomplish missions. Consequently the willingness of what the NCO is wiling to do for subordinates includes building them into an effective and efficient team with each member having the willingness to be there contributing their fair share of effort to get the mission accomplished.

Great results getting the airmen Stinky and Nasty to improve their personal hygiene and uniform appearance habits, how about disclosing how good their performance and contribution was in doing the duties of the AFSC they were trained to do.

[Bradend2008]

Wow, this thread is a great read. Here is my 2 cents on the above topic. Yes upper AF leadership has failed us in their decision making ability as mentioned in the times today about the great force-shaping that was going to allow the AF to buy more modern aircraft. As I am sure all of you know the NCO corp is the youngest it has ever been in AF history. That has to account for something in the NCO woes. Like any job though you take the good with the bad, I have 3 young SSgts working for me and yes they are learning the ropes of being a NCO but these guys are much smarter and tech savvy then I was at that stage in my career give these new NCO's some time before pushing the panic button. And to piggy-back on some other stuff I have read, I have been in the AF 9 years I would never tell a SNCO or OIC their "role" and I would not walk to some of my Airmans dorm room and show them how to take a shower and iron uniforms. That is a skill learned in basic and tech school if they dont care after that then I can gladly show them the door.

[CarolinaSarge]

I just read a thread about retention which brings me to my theory on why we are suffering!

The NCO corp is failing!

I have a wife, 3 kids and a dog, and I still find time to invest in my Airmen. Let me cite an example of what I believe an NCO should do - and I don't think I am anything above normal - just I take my service seriously.

While stationed in Okinawa, I had 2 stinky, nasty Airmen. Time and time again I talked to them about hygiene and they never seemed to get it. Finally, I had enough and one Saturday morning I threw on swim trunks, packed up some soap, shampoo, wash rag, boot polish and headed out the door. My wife thought I was crazy.

I pounded on one of their door and woke him up - then told him to go get his friend A1C Nasty. I brought A1C Nasty and A1C Stinky and we all crammed into Stinky's head. I got in the shower and demonstrated how they should take a shower --- starting w/ shampoo, moving onto soap --- the whole 9 yards. A1C Nasty started laughing at one point. I lost it on him and let him know we'd be doing the same thing at 0600 the next day - which we did.

Next day, Sunday, we did the same routine. And, after our shower class, we brushed teeth together. After that we ironed our cammies together. After that, we polished our boots together. Believe me, there was no smiling or laughing on Sunday.

And, until I PCSed to my next base, A1C Stinky and A1C Nasty were beacons of hygiene and had sharp uniforms and boots.

It's all about what the NCOs and SrA are willing to do, and actually do for their subordinates - the future of the Air Force rests on us!

I am going to agree with your intentions, but STRONGLY disagree with your methods. They may have been sharp trooops til you left, but what about afterwards? What about the other issues that may come up in their career where there won't be someone to hold their hand?

As a previous poster said, we are not here to raise kids. We are here to mentor and train warfighters, prepare others to fill our shoes, and get rid of the ones who don't fall in line. I had an airman who just would NOT clean her dorm room. I told her once how to do it, walked her through a dorm inspection another time showing her what to look for and how to fix it, and from there on out she was on her own. When she failed to produce a clean dorm room, that showed to me that she lacked the motivation and maturity to be in the US Air Force, I tok the subsequent disciplinary actions.

She is now a civilian.

I wasn't going to clean it for her, and since she was told and shown what to clean and how to clean it, the owness was on her, as an adult, to have the integrity and maturity to fix it. I would not be doing her, nor the Air Force that I love, ANY justice by grabbing the vaccuum every week and holding her hand while we hoovered her carpet together.

The future of the Air Force rests upon strong Air Force members of ALL ranks having the integrity, strength, and leadership to know what is right and wrong, know what is expected of them, and to act accordingly. It also rests upon the NCO and Officer corps recognizing those that fit, and will be an assett to the USAF, and getting rid of those that don't. Nowhere in the NCO Creed, Airman Leadership school, or Enlisted Rank Structure does it say that we are here to hold the hands of our subordinates. You are actually going AGAINST your duties as an NCO by willingly and knowingly failing to hold those two Airmen accountable for their actions.

[Bradend2008]

Well said :)

[Shrike]

I am going to agree with your intentions, but STRONGLY disagree with your methods. They may have been sharp trooops til you left, but what about afterwards? What about the other issues that may come up in their career where there won't be someone to hold their hand?

As a previous poster said, we are not here to raise kids. We are here to mentor and train warfighters, prepare others to fill our shoes, and get rid of the ones who don't fall in line. I had an airman who just would NOT clean her dorm room. I told her once how to do it, walked her through a dorm inspection another time showing her what to look for and how to fix it, and from there on out she was on her own. When she failed to produce a clean dorm room, that showed to me that she lacked the motivation and maturity to be in the US Air Force, I tok the subsequent disciplinary actions.

She is now a civilian.

I wasn't going to clean it for her, and since she was told and shown what to clean and how to clean it, the owness was on her, as an adult, to have the integrity and maturity to fix it. I would not be doing her, nor the Air Force that I love, ANY justice by grabbing the vaccuum every week and holding her hand while we hoovered her carpet together.

The future of the Air Force rests upon strong Air Force members of ALL ranks having the intergrity, strength, and leadership to know what is right and wrong, know what is expected of them, and to act accordingly. It also rests upon the NCO and Officer corps recognizing those that fit, and will be an assett to the USAF, and getting rid of those that don't. Nowhere in the NCO Creed, Airman Leadership school, or Enlisted Rank Structure does it say that we are hear to hold the hands of our subordinates. You are actually going AGAINST your duties as an NCO by willingly and knowingly failing to hold those two Airmen accountable for their actions.


<applause>

[johca]

I am going to agree with your intentions, but STRONGLY disagree with your methods. They may have been sharp trooops til you left, ....Unfortunately their being there contribution on the job was not disclosed. There is more to being there day-to-day performing military duties than hygiene and appearance in ironed uniform and polished boots. Acceptable performance and behavior standards generally apply to everyone and to every situation of performing military duties. Consequently, Reasonable and effective principles of performance and behavior improvement are usually intended to apply to everyone, and to every situation in practices of all sorts.

I also imagine the dilemmas of going into the dorm room and giving demonstration performance training and corrective action to the opposite gender. Imagine if sexual orientation of either the person needing the behavior modification or the person giving it was not similar. Many better tools and methods available than the example provided.

[weazlefuzion]

I just read a thread about retention which brings me to my theory on why we are suffering!

The NCO corp is failing!

I have a wife, 3 kids and a dog, and I still find time to invest in my Airmen. Let me cite an example of what I believe an NCO should do - and I don't think I am anything above normal - just I take my service seriously.

While stationed in Okinawa, I had 2 stinky, nasty Airmen. Time and time again I talked to them about hygiene and they never seemed to get it. Finally, I had enough and one Saturday morning I threw on swim trunks, packed up some soap, shampoo, wash rag, boot polish and headed out the door. My wife thought I was crazy.

I pounded on one of their door and woke him up - then told him to go get his friend A1C Nasty. I brought A1C Nasty and A1C Stinky and we all crammed into Stinky's head. I got in the shower and demonstrated how they should take a shower --- starting w/ shampoo, moving onto soap --- the whole 9 yards. A1C Nasty started laughing at one point. I lost it on him and let him know we'd be doing the same thing at 0600 the next day - which we did.

Next day, Sunday, we did the same routine. And, after our shower class, we brushed teeth together. After that we ironed our cammies together. After that, we polished our boots together. Believe me, there was no smiling or laughing on Sunday.

And, until I PCSed to my next base, A1C Stinky and A1C Nasty were beacons of hygiene and had sharp uniforms and boots.

It's all about what the NCOs and SrA are willing to do, and actually do for their subordinates - the future of the Air Force rests on us!

The Air Force's NCO Corps disgusts me. Well done!



Sorry, NCO's are not here to raise kids because their parents failed them. If you want bath airmen, help yourself. If counseling and verbal instructions didn't sink in then they obviously have issues and have no business in the military. And speaking of NCO's failing...some of it is because Amn see Staffs and even Techs as personnel with no real authority because SNCO's and Officers are increasingly micro-managing. There is not just one group or corp failing - it is widespread among all ranks.

Paperwork is what's wrong with our discipline system; no one wants to dig in and get their hands dirty anymore. What happened to push ups, wall-to-wall counseling, etc? NCOs are here to raise kids because their parents failed them. Whether or not they should be in the military has nothing to do with the fact that they are and it is your job to make sure they don't project a poor image of the uniform or get someone killed. It is only after these types of measures have exhausted that one should turn to the UCMJ or discharge. People can, and do, change. You forget, these Airmen were probably 18-20 years old, way too young to have fully formed character or personality.




I wasn't going to clean it for her, and since she was told and shown what to clean and how to clean it, the owness was on her, as an adult, to have the integrity and maturity to fix it. I would not be doing her, nor the Air Force that I love, ANY justice by grabbing the vaccuum every week and holding her hand while we hoovered her carpet together.

This is just wrong. Just because you told her X, Y, and Z, doesn't mean it really sank in. She may very well have been a complete waste of the Air Force's time and money, but it's not because she didn't clean her room after you told her to a few times; it's because she can't be taught to properly clean her room or follow other policies and orders. It may have been a bigger waste of money to discharge her instead of trying to help her reform and do her duties.

[johca]

The Air Force's NCO Corps disgusts me. Well done!I read you only other post on these forums and after reading it, I’m somewhat confused not so much by the NCO corps disgusts you as that post gives some insight as to why you think this, but rather of the rest of your response. Although I agree with laziness to do the paperwork to document what the problem is, how it impairs the individuals performance and how it will be corrected to meet minimum standards, there are attitude and ability causes that can not be modified by additional training or disciplinary corrective actions.


What happened to push ups, wall-to-wall counseling, etc?push-ups have most effectiveness in group training situations and the Air Force for the most part except for a few training courses considers such cruel and unusual punishment. Wall-to-Wall counseling bring with it much legal liabilities and is only effective when it is understood and appreciated it is much better than the results of an article 15 or courts-martial punishment. It became extinct once ability to order KP duties and deny weekend liberty disappeared. At one time enlisted didn’t leave post unless they had a liberty pass or were on leave. These things went away because they were no longer effective as military force structure transformed from single male only to both genders and married with most of the enlisted population no longer billeted in open bay barracks.


NCOs are here to raise kids because their parents failed them. False, Incorrect, Wrong. Although NCO duties do include developing a genuine concern for their subordinates well-being the limit of this concern is set by the responsibility to train them as individuals and as teams to operate proficiency. Airmen are being paid a wage and given military entitlements to be there performing the military duties of their AFSC and to contribute to the accomplishing of the day-to-day operations of the unit they are assigned to. NCOs have obligations to unit and others in the unit and that obligation is not to give some loser or malcontent or person unable to perform duties to standards a free ride.


Whether or not they should be in the military has nothing to do with the fact that they are and it is your job to make sure they don't project a poor image of the uniform or get someone killed. It is only after these types of measures have exhausted that one should turn to the UCMJ or discharge. False, Incorrect, Wrong. There is a mission impairment resulting each day a member unable to perform duties to standards is carried for compassion and sympathy reasons on the book. The mission impairment could be safety as others get task saturated or exhaust coworkers who are putting in extra hours or doing one more deployment that the nondeployable person who is unable to peform duties can’t do. The obligation is to get the member contributing to stanards as quickly as possible and not to give endless repetive retraining opportunities or a no end in sight training opportunity. There is other option of involuntary retraining into another AFSC, but that typically moves your problem to somebody else who must then suffer in trying to improve below standards performance and behaivior.



People can, and do, change. You forget, these Airmen were probably 18-20 years old, way too young to have fully formed character or personality.Yes and sometimes it 10 years after they were involuntarily discharged. However, judgment is directly related to cognitive ability and character is directly related to attitudes, values and beliefs such as work ethics directing activities and habits. Character traits are developed during early childhood and pretty much permanent by age 18. Once ingrained, a personal character trait of I am, it’s all about me and you can’t make me is difficult to change after age 18.



This is just wrong. Just because you told her X, Y, and Z, doesn't mean it really sank in. She may very well have been a complete waste of the Air Force's time and money, but it's not because she didn't clean her room after you told her to a few times; it's because she can't be taught to properly clean her room or follow other policies and orders. It may have been a bigger waste of money to discharge her instead of trying to help her reform and do her duties.Just wrong—ROFL.

It’s often a significant measurable cost savings and improvement of unit combat readiness to quickly discharge and get the positioned filled by somebody meeting or exceeding minimum standards who also has the willingness to contribute in doing the job to standards every day.

If the performance is due to lack of training, provide the training and establish the must be trained and perform to standards no later than date. If it’s a behavior problem don’t even waste the training time and effort. Identify the standards that must be compiled with and inform failure to comply will result in the appropriate character discharge, reenlistment code and separation code. Advice repeat conduct and behavior that is a chargeable punitive UCMJ offense may result in conviction of doing such offense.

[Combat correspondent]

Young Airmen do not understand - despite being told and explained - the long-term effects of a paperwork trail. When I first put on SSgt, I counceled many Airmen many times. In the case of A1C Nasty and A1C Stinky, I counseled and reprimanded one for his hygiene and the other had been given numerous LOCs from various people for various things and I personally administered an LOC, LOA and LOR. Which brings me back to my method - taking "their" personal time for corrective training is the most effective way.

They were both on a fast track to separation before they were CROed to me. The were put under me because my leadership had faith I'd turn them around. I already turned around 1 kid on the twinkie program by waking him up every morning at 0530 and running together - whether he liked it or not.

You see, wheter its A1C Stinky, A1C Nasty or Twinkie Boy --- paperwork and AF programs are not the answer (in my opinion). They don't get it! The answer is making their lives miserable until they change their behavior and if they still cant ---- well, then throw them under the bus and process them out the gate or into the Army - more or less the same thing ;)

I am surpirsed you are all so eager to give up on your Airmen. But, that explains a lot.

[Combat correspondent]

Weazlefusion gets it! Most of the AF NCOs disgust me, as well. Actually, that’s the topic of this thread. These guys/gals need to wake up and start taking an active hand --- it’s the ONLY way to fix the broken AF.

Now, someone’s going to say it’s not broke! Forget that! The AF is definitely broken and everyone needs to step up to fix it.

By the way, as far as being disciplined for thrashing your Airmen. Who cares? Officers will not understand why we do things the way we do and who really cared! I'll still make CMSgt despite the discipline I am handed. For instance, when I made Airman Twinkie run every morning - I was disciplined for it. I didn't mention it before but at the time a lot of bad news was coming out of the AF Academy over hazing. I was reprimanded by my 1st Sergeant for "hazing" the fat boy. Well, I am not sure how it is "hazing" when I am running along side of him. So, do you know what I did?

Nothing----or I should say that I changed nothing ---- next day I got fat boy up again and we went for a run. I told him to keep his damn mouth shut about it or more will come his way and he did. Go figure! Wow! What a concept!

Wanna know what happened to the fat boy? I just saw him at Bagram a few months back. He is now no longer a fat boy, he is a Staff Sergeant of Airmen, a darn fine F-15 crewchief and in the middle of his second enlistment. That’s right! I didn't throw him under the bus because he had a Twinkie problem. I ran it out of him, which in turn made him find his own motivation and desires and he now emulates the same in his Airmen. He's a fine NCO and I would work beside him any day! Again, what a concept!

[THELADYKT]

Props for Twinkie boy. This is what the fat boy and current programs should be. Just telling people to go run is not going to accomplish anything. You have to be taught to run properly and to choose the right shoes. I had SERIOUS issues with shin splints and ankle issues. It went on for almost 8 years. I finally got a serious phyical therapist who actually watched me run. Turns out I had an unusual stride which was causing my issues. Once we corrected that, my shin splint and ankle problems resolved themselves.

Sorry for the diversion..... A hands-on approach does need to be used first, then paperwork, then discharge if needed if verbal councelling doesn't work. Not sure I agree with taking them into the showers perse, but hey a refresher on how to do uniforms/boots is not a bad thing.

[weazlefuzion]

I read you only other post on these forums and after reading it, I’m somewhat confused not so much by the NCO corps disgusts you as that post gives some insight as to why you think this, but rather of the rest of your response. Although I agree with laziness to do the paperwork to document what the problem is, how it impairs the individuals performance and how it will be corrected to meet minimum standards, there are attitude and ability causes that can not be modified by additional training or disciplinary corrective actions.

I disagree when it comes to a new recruit. Behavior and attitude is easily modified in BMT, even with older recruits, so there's no reason an NCO can't do the same for his troops.



push-ups have most effectiveness in group training situations and the Air Force for the most part except for a few training courses considers such cruel and unusual punishment. Wall-to-Wall counseling bring with it much legal liabilities and is only effective when it is understood and appreciated it is much better than the results of an article 15 or courts-martial punishment. It became extinct once ability to order KP duties and deny weekend liberty disappeared. At one time enlisted didn’t leave post unless they had a liberty pass or were on leave. These things went away because they were no longer effective as military force structure transformed from single male only to both genders and married with most of the enlisted population no longer billeted in open bay barracks.

I agree that push-ups, etc are better in groups, but I am positive that they are effective one-on-one as well. As for the Air Force finding that "cruel and unusual", they are wrong. That is some new age garbage that is taking power away from our lower-grade NCOs (that should include E-4) and giving it officers (in the form of NJP), causing them to micromanage and further undermine the NCO corps. When foreign nations look at our military, it's not because of our planes, our guns, or our tanks. Foreign nations admire our NCO corps, the power NCOs have, and the discipline they can instill with the full brunt of the UCMJ behind their actions.

The legal liabilities brought about with wall-to-wall counseling and other such things are only there because the military allowed it in. Obviously things cannot be excessive, but there is no reason an NCO should not be able to grab an Airman by the arm and say "shut the hell up", or order him to dig holes or move sand bags. Physical punishment alleviates the time it takes to write paperwork and keeps the punishment easily at the lowest level.

Additionally, weekend liberty has nothing to do with the fact that Airmen can still legally be restricted to the base over a weekend or for another amount of time, and this power should be used (by officers, or delegated to SNCOs).


False, Incorrect, Wrong. Although NCO duties do include developing a genuine concern for their subordinates well-being the limit of this concern is set by the responsibility to train them as individuals and as teams to operate proficiency. Airmen are being paid a wage and given military entitlements to be there performing the military duties of their AFSC and to contribute to the accomplishing of the day-to-day operations of the unit they are assigned to. NCOs have obligations to unit and others in the unit and that obligation is not to give some loser or malcontent or person unable to perform duties to standards a free ride.

You took my statement totally out of context. That was simply a response the post I quoted, obviously not to be taken literally. However, your statement brings to light an issue in my other post regarding discipline in the Air Force. You act as if an Airman is getting paid in a normal job, so if he doesn't perform, he's gone. This is not a corporation; this is the military, and the Airman has chosen to serve. I am a firm believer that BMT and AETC have completely failed our Airmen and have not provided them proper training. An NCO's obligation is not only to his unit, but also to the Air Force. When an Airman has completed BMT and Finance training, maybe it makes sense to just throw him out, but I've seen it happen in fields where much more money and training (linguists and spec ops) has been put forth and an Airman is tossed out of the military. It is the NCO's responsibility to make sure the Air Force isn't going to lose money by throwing out someone who could be improved with the proper guidance from a superior. You should not be an NCO just because you pass a test or you're good at your job. You should be an NCO because you are well-aware that you will take on extra duties with regard to leadership and mentoring and you are confident in your ability to perform those duties.


False, Incorrect, Wrong. There is a mission impairment resulting each day a member unable to perform duties to standards is carried for compassion and sympathy reasons on the book. The mission impairment could be safety as others get task saturated or exhaust coworkers who are putting in extra hours or doing one more deployment that the nondeployable person who is unable to peform duties can’t do. The obligation is to get the member contributing to stanards as quickly as possible and not to give endless repetive retraining opportunities or a no end in sight training opportunity. There is other option of involuntary retraining into another AFSC, but that typically moves your problem to somebody else who must then suffer in trying to improve below standards performance and behaivior.

See above response. Same deal, the obligation is not just to the unit, but the organization. Safety and standards can be impaired just the same when an Airman is thrown out and his spot takes months to fill because there aren't any recruits coming in because the money was already spent on the guy they tossed.


Yes and sometimes it 10 years after they were involuntarily discharged. However, judgment is directly related to cognitive ability and character is directly related to attitudes, values and beliefs such as work ethics directing activities and habits. Character traits are developed during early childhood and pretty much permanent by age 18. Once ingrained, a personal character trait of I am, it’s all about me and you can’t make me is difficult to change after age 18.

You are obviously not a mental health professional. Character traits are "developed" at an early age, then they continue to develop well into later life. I changed significantly after BMT, more so after taking on leadership roles thereafter and I'm sure I'll change more as I advance on the payscale.

You are absolutely correct that judgment is directly related to cognitive ability and character to attitudes, values and beliefs, and this is also the exact contradiction to what you just said. Your cognitive ability changes daily based simply on diet, mood, etc, how you interpret those things comes from your character, which, as you agree, is based upon attitudes, values, and beliefs. Those change daily and if attitude changes based on the situation, and values based on what one has learned, and beliefs based upon those values then character changes just as often. Depending on how drastic the underlying changes are, then character may change just as drastically too. That could happen when I'm forced to do something humiliating (and humiliation is not cruel or wrong, it's part of life) like learning to bathe with my supervisor's instruction.


Just wrong—ROFL.

It’s often a significant measurable cost savings and improvement of unit combat readiness to quickly discharge and get the positioned filled by somebody meeting or exceeding minimum standards who also has the willingness to contribute in doing the job to standards every day.

If the performance is due to lack of training, provide the training and establish the must be trained and perform to standards no later than date. If it’s a behavior problem don’t even waste the training time and effort. Identify the standards that must be compiled with and inform failure to comply will result in the appropriate character discharge, reenlistment code and separation code. Advice repeat conduct and behavior that is a chargeable punitive UCMJ offense may result in conviction of doing such offense.

Once again, that cost savings may apply in a services position, but what about longer pipelines, where an Airman has cost the taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars? It is your duty to see to it that they get their money's worth and don't give up on square one.

Your second paragraph was already covered. The training has failed us all and you can't hold new Airmen responsible for that, nor can you hold taxpayers financially responsible for it. I've already shown that character can change, so nothing more need be said on that.



It is the above type of attitude that is destroying the NCO Corps and therefore our Air Force. I don't blame you for anything you've said above however, because that's how senior leadership leads and that's how they write the doctrine. They then expect NCOs to digest and repeat. The problem is, it isn't working. I can think for myself, and so can any NCO, so the power needs to be given to them to use that ability in the molding of the US Air Force.

I'll leave you with this:
"The discipline which makes the soldiers of a free country reliable in battle is not to be gained by harsh or tyrannical treatment. On the contrary, such treatment is far more likely to destroy than to make an army. It is possible to impart instruction and give commands in such a manner and such a tone of voice as to inspire in the soldier an intense desire to obey, while the opposite manner and tone of voice cannot fail to excite strong resentment and a desire to disobey. The one mode or other of dealing with subordinates springs from a corresponding spirit in the breast of the commander. He who feels the respect which is due to others cannot fail to inspire in them respect for himself, while he who feels and hence manifests disrespect towards others, especially his subordinates, cannot fail to inspire hatred against himself."
- Maj Gen John M. Schofield

First, push-ups and other physical punishments that we've used in the last decade or two are not "harsh or tyrannical" in any manner, so don't make that argument. It's the emboldened part is where I'd like attention because it applies to NCOs as well as commanders. An NCO must know how to instruct in such a manner that the Airman wants to follow the orders. The Airman doesn't need to have personal respect for the NCO, he will have respect for all NCOs when he sees that they all know how to not only lead properly, but also to know how to follow properly. The Airman will not respect an NCO as an NCO when he can greet him with "what's up" or when the NCOs don't make on the spot corrections in front of others to show that standards are enforced and if not followed to the 'T', then the disrespect will be reciprocated in the form of 'motivational training'.

[CarolinaSarge]

Combat and Weazle it amazes me how far out of touch with reality and the core values of being an NCO you two are. Your job as an NCO is to shape and train the Air Force's warriors and future leaders, not to babysit, hand hold, or fill in for the deficiencies of their parents. Show me where in the Enlisted Force Structure that it say that I am to teach A1C Snuffy how to wipe his a** because mommy and daddy didn't teach them. This is the military, not a daycare program, and with today's manning we only need to keep the sharpest and mature troops, and cut the rest that can't cut it. Basic Training and Tech School is the preparation grounds where they are taught the basics needed to survive in the AF, if after all that they can't cut it, boot their sorry butts out. Stop coddling and creating a weaker generation of Airmen, and start actually holding these people to some sort of standards. If you train them and it doesn't sinkl in, that's THEIR FAULT, not yours. If they can't do something as simple as clean their room or their own body the right way, God help them when they are expected to fix that jet in a timely manner. Let them get their second chance at McDonalds, not at the expense of national security and the AF Mission.

[USMC_8156]

Do you want to know why the best fighting forces in the world look damn good in uniform as well? Because discipline in appearance has a direct correlation on performance. I think it's great that he took those stinky little bastards and threw them in the shower. Not to mention, look at the results. One weekend of discipline (which probably took a total of 8 hours of his life, whoopee) had a positive result in his troops. What else do you want? I know Marines who took a good bit more than that to whip into shape.

Part of the reason the Marine Corps has the professionalism we do is because wall to wall counselings and intrusive leadership are still hallmarks of the Corps (although wall to wall counseling is reserved for serious cases these days). It is hands down the most effective military training there is. It is gone now, but we used to have Corrective Custody Platoons. If a Marine got an Article 15, sometimes they would send him to what was basically a mini-boot camp. Did they come out pissed off and waiting for their EAS? Hell no, 99% of them came out motivated and ready to chew nails. I knew a Master Gunny who went through CC when he was a Private, and he was one of the most squared away Marines I'd ever met.

You say that you aren't here to hold your subordinates hands? Well guess what, you are. If you want to be a civilian in cammies, then go ahead and say that "My job is 9-5, and if my workers don't do their job I write them up." That's how civilians behave.

If you want to be a military man or woman, you had better get used to intrusive leadership. Your job as an NCO extends to everything your troops do. If they have financial problems, health problems, hygeine problems, drinking problems, they are now your problems.

Everyone who has said "Nope, not my job, I'm nobody's mommy" is the reason that the AF gets mocked for being civilian. If you say "Oh whatever Marine you guys are dumb lol asvab scores haha I don't wanna be a Marine I joined the AF" -- What I have said applies to any military force, in any country. Hit up the IDF or the British Army and see what they have to say about intrusive leadership.

[weazlefuzion]

Do you want to know why the best fighting forces in the world look damn good in uniform as well? Because discipline in appearance has a direct correlation on performance. I think it's great that he took those stinky little bastards and threw them in the shower. Not to mention, look at the results. One weekend of discipline (which probably took a total of 8 hours of his life, whoopee) had a positive result in his troops. What else do you want? I know Marines who took a good bit more than that to whip into shape.

Part of the reason the Marine Corps has the professionalism we do is because wall to wall counselings and intrusive leadership are still hallmarks of the Corps (although wall to wall counseling is reserved for serious cases these days). It is hands down the most effective military training there is. It is gone now, but we used to have Corrective Custody Platoons. If a Marine got an Article 15, sometimes they would send him to what was basically a mini-boot camp. Did they come out pissed off and waiting for their EAS? Hell no, 99% of them came out motivated and ready to chew nails. I knew a Master Gunny who went through CC when he was a Private, and he was one of the most squared away Marines I'd ever met.

You say that you aren't here to hold your subordinates hands? Well guess what, you are. If you want to be a civilian in cammies, then go ahead and say that "My job is 9-5, and if my workers don't do their job I write them up." That's how civilians behave.

If you want to be a military man or woman, you had better get used to intrusive leadership. Your job as an NCO extends to everything your troops do. If they have financial problems, health problems, hygeine problems, drinking problems, they are now your problems.

Everyone who has said "Nope, not my job, I'm nobody's mommy" is the reason that the AF gets mocked for being civilian. If you say "Oh whatever Marine you guys are dumb lol asvab scores haha I don't wanna be a Marine I joined the AF" -- What I have said applies to any military force, in any country. Hit up the IDF or the British Army and see what they have to say about intrusive leadership.

Absolutely 100% agree. If I could give you a cookie, I'd bake a whole fucking bakery for you. The military (especially AF) is trying to attract troops by dropping the military routine in favor of a "hey, it's not that bad" kind of schpeel (real word? never written it), and in return they are getting less motivated, less willing, and overall poorer quality of troops. The DoD says the AF has the best quality recruits? Since when is a high school diploma a measure of quality? We may have some of the smartest troops, but we have by far the worst and least disciplined military organization of all the world's civilized nations.

I joined the Air Force because I wanted to be part of the bleeding edge of technology while I was in the military. Instead, I've been misguided morally, taught incorrectly regarding leadership, and I simply reverted back to using the best tool I have: my brain. I know I can be one hell of a leader, on both your good side and bad, without some bullshit doctrine of "we're all equals here". We aren't equals. SNCO>NCO>Airman and no one seems to understand that.

[BRUWIN]

Why is it an only NCO's responsibility to keep troops in? Lets not assume it's a problem with NCOs. I know many troops leaving because of the decisions of leadership and in some ways I can't fault them. And when I say leadership I'm talking O-5 and above. Just read some of these threads....NCOs are not responsible for a lot of the silly decisions being made. How can NCOs be reasonably expected to keep troops in with such silly policies such as wearing a reflective belt with the AF PT uniform being disseminated???

[weazlefuzion]

Why is it an only NCO's responsibility to keep troops in? Lets not assume it's a problem with NCOs. I know many troops leaving because of the decisions of leadership and in some ways I can't fault them. And when I say leadership I'm talking O-5 and above. Just read some of these threads....NCOs are not responsible for a lot of the silly decisions being made. How can NCOs be reasonably expected to keep troops in with such silly policies such as wearing a reflective belt with the AF PT uniform being disseminated???

What you say is true. I've been preaching this for a while now. There is a catch though. Air Force senior leadership is also responsible for writing the doctrine and creating the policies regarding NCO leadership. They have failed the NCO Corps, and therefore the entire Air Force. I dislike all the reflective belt garbage, but that wouldn't make me leave an organization. The reason I'll be leaving (for a more professional military organization) is because of the lack of leadership. Generals are now micromanaging and are of course totally out of touch with the very group they want to manage so closely, so that group, and the NCOs in between get the shaft. Screw that noise.

[AF Chief]

Wow...I can't believe all the sterotyping of the grades going on here (Airmen,NCOs,SNCOs).

We have good and bad people throughout all the grades. Not all SNCOs are out to beat the Airmen into submission and make rank walking on their backs. Not all young Airmen are awesome and it's all their Leaderhip's fault for the things that have gone wrong in their careers. Again, we have good and bad personnel of all ranks from AB-CMSgt.

I can tell you that the Young Airmen today coming in the Air Force are a whole lot smarter than the now SNCOs were back when they came in to include myself. Some are coming in with degrees and others with computer knowledge that puts us SNCOs to shame. But, IMOP, the "ME Generation" is about themselves and what we can do for them vs. what can they do for the Air Force (and I am not including all Airmen in this claim). Try asking them to take out the trash in your building. Even though we did it (to include Weeds and Seeds for us old timers), they will look at you like your crazy. And even if they are smarter than us back in the day, common sense is lacking and taking responsibility for their actions. I am not sterotyping all Airmen. I have some great ones and I have one that I am discharging because he can't follow simple rules along with multiple UCMJ charges.

Leadership begins at all levels. If it is failing, we all have a piece of the pie here. And I do agree that we are left to baby-sit these people when Basic Training and Tech School failed to weed them out before they reached our base. I have had a couple of Airmen that I called back to Basic Training and Tech School and asked them, "How did they make it here"? Quotas. Believe it or not, the more they pass, the better their stats. I have gotten the response, "Well, we were hoping that he/she would do better once they reached their first base". Wrong attitude. Heck, I had a Airman that didn't qualify M-16 in Basic Training but was allowed to graduate. How the hell do you pass Basic Training without qualifying M-16 training in today's times when we are fighting 2 wars at the same time? This is completly wrong.

I am telling you, I hold my NCO/SNCOs accountable as well. If they ever are holding their Airmen accountable for things they did, they better not be doing the same thing. I had a SSgt try to give her young Airman a LOC for being late to work. I told her to write herself one as well as I had warned her in the past about being late to work. Needless to say, she didn't write one. She was a hypocrite. I had issues with SNCOs taking longer lunches and not allowing Airmen to do it. I nipped that in the freaking bud the first week I got to that assignment. Now these are examples over past years not just one base.

Leadership is about setting the example and holding people to standards. DISCIPLINE! When discipline fails everything is a train wreck behind it. Leadership is about being the a$$hole that corrects a NCO or Airmen for not properly wearing his/her uniform correctly or not performing to standards.

IMOP, Gen Swartz has got it right by holding people accountable for their decisions. He has demonstrated that it comes from the top by recent firings. But, we need to hold our Airmen accountable as well.

Off my soap box and I didn't post this to offend anyone.

[Cornbreadrules]

I just read a thread about retention which brings me to my theory on why we are suffering!

The NCO corp is failing!

I have a wife, 3 kids and a dog, and I still find time to invest in my Airmen. Let me cite an example of what I believe an NCO should do - and I don't think I am anything above normal - just I take my service seriously.

While stationed in Okinawa, I had 2 stinky, nasty Airmen. Time and time again I talked to them about hygiene and they never seemed to get it. Finally, I had enough and one Saturday morning I threw on swim trunks, packed up some soap, shampoo, wash rag, boot polish and headed out the door. My wife thought I was crazy.

I pounded on one of their door and woke him up - then told him to go get his friend A1C Nasty. I brought A1C Nasty and A1C Stinky and we all crammed into Stinky's head. I got in the shower and demonstrated how they should take a shower --- starting w/ shampoo, moving onto soap --- the whole 9 yards. A1C Nasty started laughing at one point. I lost it on him and let him know we'd be doing the same thing at 0600 the next day - which we did.

Next day, Sunday, we did the same routine. And, after our shower class, we brushed teeth together. After that we ironed our cammies together. After that, we polished our boots together. Believe me, there was no smiling or laughing on Sunday.

And, until I PCSed to my next base, A1C Stinky and A1C Nasty were beacons of hygiene and had sharp uniforms and boots.

It's all about what the NCOs and SrA are willing to do, and actually do for their subordinates - the future of the Air Force rests on us!


And, until I PCSed to my next base, A1C Stinky and A1C Nasty were beacons of hygiene and had sharp uniforms and boots.................So could they do there jobs or did they just look sharp?

[BigBaze]

Wow...I can't believe all the sterotyping of the grades going on here (Airmen,NCOs,SNCOs).

We have good and bad people throughout all the grades. Not all SNCOs are out to beat the Airmen into submission and make rank walking on their backs. Not all young Airmen are awesome and it's all their Leaderhip's fault for the things that have gone wrong in their careers. Again, we have good and bad personnel of all ranks from AB-CMSgt.

I can tell you that the Young Airmen today coming in the Air Force are a whole lot smarter than the now SNCOs were back when they came in to include myself. Some are coming in with degrees and others with computer knowledge that puts us SNCOs to shame. But, IMOP, the "ME Generation" is about themselves and what we can do for them vs. what can they do for the Air Force (and I am not including all Airmen in this claim). Try asking them to take out the trash in your building. Even though we did it (to include Weeds and Seeds for us old timers), they will look at you like your crazy. And even if they are smarter than us back in the day, common sense is lacking and taking responsibility for their actions. I am not sterotyping all Airmen. I have some great ones and I have one that I am discharging because he can't follow simple rules along with multiple UCMJ charges.

Leadership begins at all levels. If it is failing, we all have a piece of the pie here. And I do agree that we are left to baby-sit these people when Basic Training and Tech School failed to weed them out before they reached our base. I have had a couple of Airmen that I called back to Basic Training and Tech School and asked them, "How did they make it here"? Quotas. Believe it or not, the more they pass, the better their stats. I have gotten the response, "Well, we were hoping that he/she would do better once they reached their first base". Wrong attitude. Heck, I had a Airman that didn't qualify M-16 in Basic Training but was allowed to graduate. How the hell do you pass Basic Training without qualifying M-16 training in today's times when we are fighting 2 wars at the same time? This is completly wrong.

Am I am telling you, I hold my NCO/SNCOs accountable as well. If they ever are holding their Airmen accountable for things they did, they better not be doing the same thing. I had a SSgt try to give her young Airman a LOC for being late to work. I told her to write herself one as well as I had warned her in the past about being late to work. Needless to say, she didn't write one. She was a hypocrite. I had issues with SNCOs taking longer lunches and not allowing Airmen to do it. I nipped that in the freaking bud the first week I got to that assignment. Now these are examples over past years not just one base.

Leadership is about setting the example and holding to people to standards. DISCIPLINE! When discipline fails everything is a train wreck behind it. Leadership is about being the a$$hole that corrects a NCO or Airmen for not properly wearing his/her uniform correctly or not performing to standards.

IMOP, Gen Swartz has got it right by holding people accountable for their decisions. He has demonstrated that it comes from the top by recent firings. But, we need to hold our Airmen accountable as well.

Off my soap box and I didn't post this to offend anyone.


Exactly. The airmen need to do their part and take some damn personal responsibility upon themselves.

[Cornbreadrules]

Young Airmen do not understand - despite being told and explained - the long-term effects of a paperwork trail. When I first put on SSgt, I counceled many Airmen many times. In the case of A1C Nasty and A1C Stinky, I counseled and reprimanded one for his hygiene and the other had been given numerous LOCs from various people for various things and I personally administered an LOC, LOA and LOR. Which brings me back to my method - taking "their" personal time for corrective training is the most effective way.

They were both on a fast track to separation before they were CROed to me. The were put under me because my leadership had faith I'd turn them around. I already turned around 1 kid on the twinkie program by waking him up every morning at 0530 and running together - whether he liked it or not.

You see, wheter its A1C Stinky, A1C Nasty or Twinkie Boy --- paperwork and AF programs are not the answer (in my opinion). They don't get it! The answer is making their lives miserable until they change their behavior and if they still cant ---- well, then throw them under the bus and process them out the gate or into the Army - more or less the same thing ;)

I am surpirsed you are all so eager to give up on your Airmen. But, that explains a lot.


You got one off the fat boy program & two to look sharp, but still dont say if they can do their job.

[weazlefuzion]

First,

You got one off the fat boy program & two to look sharp, but still dont say if they can do their job.
The twinkie guy is now working on the upgrade, so he's probably doing fine, right? As far as the other two, it really comes down to why they get thrown out (if they do). If it's for a Lack of Ability, then no big deal. They should still be able to get promoted based on leadership skill (if they've turned over that new leaf) and just change jobs. If it's Lack of Effort, then throw them into a retard job or some BS work on base and move on. If there's no change, then toss them. If it weren't for all these contractors getting paid to clean dorms and mow lawns, they could be doing that while their status in the military is evaluated.



With all due respect, sir, I have to disagree on a couple of points.


Wow...I can't believe all the sterotyping of the grades going on here (Airmen,NCOs,SNCOs).

We have good and bad people throughout all the grades. Not all SNCOs are out to beat the Airmen into submission and make rank walking on their backs. Not all young Airmen are awesome and it's all their Leaderhip's fault for the things that have gone wrong in their careers. Again, we have good and bad personnel of all ranks from AB-CMSgt.

Not all SNCOs are that way, but a good SNCO once taught me something that makes sense: "perception is 9/10 of the law." If Airmen perceive the SNCOs in this manner, then it breeds dissent, and it should be fixed. Additionally, I agree that we have plenty of good people, but that doesn't mean we have good leaders, which may have been what you meant, but I'd disagree. The AF promotion system does not promote at all based on ability to lead Airmen directly. If you institute a policy here and there, you get a stripe; if you pass a test, you get a stripe.

I don't think that all young Airmen are awesome either. Young Airmen aren't yet awesome or dirtbags; they are being left behind by the over-centralization of leadership and the micromanagement that results.


I can tell you that the Young Airmen today coming in the Air Force are a whole lot smarter than the now SNCOs were back when they came in to include myself. Some are coming in with degrees and others with computer knowledge that puts us SNCOs to shame. But, IMOP, the "ME Generation" is about themselves and what we can do for them vs. what can they do for the Air Force (and I am not including all Airmen in this claim). Try asking them to take out the trash in your building. Even though we did it (to include Weeds and Seeds for us old timers), they will look at you like your crazy. And even if they are smarter than us back in the day, common sense is lacking and taking responsibility for their actions. I am not sterotyping all Airmen. I have some great ones and I have one that I am discharging because he can't follow simple rules along with multiple UCMJ charges.

From what I can tell, every generation has been very similar. The only difference is, this one is taking that mentality into adulthood further than others. However, as the Marine stated earlier, it's the lack of leadership that allows it to continue into the military career. NCOs now are too afraid to get involved in Airmen's lives, or too lazy, because they don't have SNCOs telling them to or backing them up when they get on an Airman aggressively. Sometimes that's what it takes to get someone back in line. And that's what it would take if a subordinate ever gave me a retard look when I told him to take out the trash. Stop hiring contractors for all these discipline-related jobs. On most bases now, junior-enlisted can't even be punished by weeds-n-seeds because it's the contractor's job and there's some liability or legal garbage in the way.


Leadership begins at all levels. If it is failing, we all have a piece of the pie here. And I do agree that we are left to baby-sit these people when Basic Training and Tech School failed to weed them out before they reached our base. I have had a couple of Airmen that I called back to Basic Training and Tech School and asked them, "How did they make it here"? Quotas. Believe it or not, the more they pass, the better their stats. I have gotten the response, "Well, we were hoping that he/she would do better once they reached their first base". Wrong attitude. Heck, I had a Airman that didn't qualify M-16 in Basic Training but was allowed to graduate. How the hell do you pass Basic Training without qualifying M-16 training in today's times when we are fighting 2 wars at the same time? This is completly wrong.

I agree with the whole thing about the quotas, but can't jump aboard with the piece of the pie thing. When an Airman first finishes BMT and Tech School and goes to his first base, he's not arriving with original sin. It's not his fault that NCOs don't lead him. It's the NCOs who don't enforce rules, the SNCOs and officers who don't make them enforce rules, and the senior officers who don't properly write doctrine to compel them to do so. In BMT, I had to greet every person with stripes I saw. Now, most AF NCOs won't be bothered with such 'trivial' things as greetings and don't compel Airmen to greet them. This is such a simple thing that would create a level of discipline to start with. NCOs aren't acting like NCOs because they aren't being mentored correctly and because they were promoted for passing a PME test instead of for their leadership abilities. You only need to display the simplest levels of intellect to put on E-5. SSgt's are supposed to be the backbone of the NCO corps because of their close proximity to the Airman Tier. Instead they make friends with all their E-3 and E-4 shopmates and don't have the guts to tell them to shine their boots.


Am I am telling you, I hold my NCO/SNCOs accountable as well. If they ever are holding their Airmen accountable for things they did, they better not be doing the same thing. I had a SSgt try to give her young Airman a LOC for being late to work. I told her to write herself one as well as I had warned her in the past about being late to work. Needless to say, she didn't write one. She was a hypocrite. I had issues with SNCOs taking longer lunches and not allowing Airmen to do it. I nipped that in the freaking bud the first week I got to that assignment. Now these are examples over past years not just one base.

I'm glad you handled that the way you did. The problem is, it isn't happening around the Air Force because too many of our SNCOs and NCOs are in the position because of their technical skills and not their leadership skills.


Leadership is about setting the example and holding to people to standards. DISCIPLINE! When discipline fails everything is a train wreck behind it. Leadership is about being the a$$hole that corrects a NCO or Airmen for not properly wearing his/her uniform correctly or not performing to standards.

Agreed. The problem is, it takes a long time to trickle down from Gen to MSgt and everything usually gets watered-down and reinterpreted by that time. NCO training needs to change to embrace the intrusive leadership style that worked for a couple hundred years.


IMOP, Gen Swartz has got it right by holding people accountable for their decisions. He has demonstrated that it comes from the top by recent firings. But, we need to hold our Airmen accountable as well.

Off my soap box and I didn't post this to offend anyone.

I would agree with the firings if I thought the NCO Corps was doing it's job. It isn't though, and those Generals weren't writing the training the E-5s involved should have had (and E-4s who should be NCOs).

BTW, this is a gentleman's discussion, so I don't take offense as long as there are no personal attacks.

[AF Chief]

Sorry, excuse my ignorance on quoting you the proper way...I haven't figured out how to do that. So I will put my reply in bold letters.



With all due respect, sir, I have to disagree on a couple of points.



Not all SNCOs are that way, but a good SNCO once taught me something that makes sense: "perception is 9/10 of the law." If Airmen perceive the SNCOs in this manner, then it breeds dissent, and it should be fixed. Additionally, I agree that we have plenty of good people, but that doesn't mean we have good leaders, which may have been what you meant, but I'd disagree. The AF promotion system does not promote at all based on ability to lead Airmen directly. If you institute a policy here and there, you get a stripe; if you pass a test, you get a stripe.

The problem is that SOME Airmen's perception is way off. They are listening to their disgruntaled buddies and taking perceptions as fact. They might even be listening to the those same guys that are being held accountable for their actions and are pissed off at the world. I am not saying ALL leadership is holier than thou, but until some of the younger Airmen/NCOs sit in this person's chair for a week, don't be so quick to judge. Promotion is not just based on a Test. WAPS has worked since 1976 and considered one of the toughest and most fairest promotion systems out there. People don't get promoted for taking a test only. I won't go into everything that isfactored in getting promoted (more so for SMSgts & CMSgts) as you already know that. If promotion was just about taking a test, then there would be a lot more E8s/E9s in the Air Force (even with the 3% mandated tier). Plus, looking down to the SNCOs that I try to get promoted, if they can't lead or manage, they arn't getting my recommendation for Senior Indorsements to get promoted--so it's a fact, they MUST lead or manage to get promoted (at least by me). I have never met a Chief who got somebody promoted that could not lead or manage. Plus, there are so many other blocks that need to be filled--it is so MUCH more than just passing a test.

I don't think that all young Airmen are awesome either. Young Airmen aren't yet awesome or dirtbags; they are being left behind by the over-centralization of leadership and the micromanagement that results.

Again, over-perception. You have to remember, its NOT all leadership's fault. Some Airmen are just not cut out for the military. I have seen many times where Leaderships bent over backwards to save a young Airmen's career and work with to no avail. Some just don't want to be helped. Some just don't want to conform to the military standards.

From what I can tell, every generation has been very similar. The only difference is, this one is taking that mentality into adulthood further than others. However, as the Marine stated earlier, it's the lack of leadership that allows it to continue into the military career. NCOs now are too afraid to get involved in Airmen's lives, or too lazy, because they don't have SNCOs telling them to or backing them up when they get on an Airman aggressively. Sometimes that's what it takes to get someone back in line. And that's what it would take if a subordinate ever gave me a retard look when I told him to take out the trash. Stop hiring contractors for all these discipline-related jobs. On most bases now, junior-enlisted can't even be punished by weeds-n-seeds because it's the contractor's job and there's some liability or legal garbage in the way.

Agree. I think we need to be tougher and its coming...trust me. We are going "Back to the Basics" meaning we don't have time to baby-sit anymore. With PBD720 Cuts, Career field merges, Deployments, TDYs, Leave, School, etc...we don't have time to make sure people are doing what they are supposed to do. I tell all my personnel that you need to know your Airmen. Know if they are married, have kids, pets, hobbies...etc. I have never been a "paper punisher" meaning, I try by talking to my people before I lay the "Paper Smackdown" on them. But, some just don't want to be helped.

I agree with the whole thing about the quotas, but can't jump aboard with the piece of the pie thing. When an Airman first finishes BMT and Tech School and goes to his first base, he's not arriving with original sin. It's not his fault that NCOs don't lead him. It's the NCOs who don't enforce rules, the SNCOs and officers who don't make them enforce rules, and the senior officers who don't properly write doctrine to compel them to do so. In BMT, I had to greet every person with stripes I saw. Now, most AF NCOs won't be bothered with such 'trivial' things as greetings and don't compel Airmen to greet them. This is such a simple thing that would create a level of discipline to start with. NCOs aren't acting like NCOs because they aren't being mentored correctly and because they were promoted for passing a PME test instead of for their leadership abilities. You only need to display the simplest levels of intellect to put on E-5. SSgt's are supposed to be the backbone of the NCO corps because of their close proximity to the Airman Tier. Instead they make friends with all their E-3 and E-4 shopmates and don't have the guts to tell them to shine their boots.

How about the NCOs that try to lead a Airman who don't want to be led? You have to remember there are some people that will not turn out good no matter how much good leadership they receive. Again, testing ONLY is not getting these people promoted to SSgt. People are writing them firewall EPRs and giving them decorations. Try and get promoted with a couple of "4"s or lack of decorations.


I'm glad you handled that the way you did. The problem is, it isn't happening around the Air Force because too many of our SNCOs and NCOs are in the position because of their technical skills and not their leadership skills.

Again, good and bad Airmen, NCOs, SNCOs, and Officers exist throughout the AF. Hopefully we weed some of the bad ones out before they take a position of power.

BTW, this is a gentleman's discussion, so I don't take offense as long as there are no personal attacks.

You won't find me personally attacking anyone without just cause. Even then, I normally won't stoop to their level. You have some valid points. May I ask are you still active duty and what rank?

Like I have hinted too, there is plenty of blame to sling around everywhere. There is just not one grouping (Amn, NCOs, & SNCOs) to blame. As a AF we are one. If one group fails, then we all fail. I am not crazy to even suggest we don't have problems in leadership, but on the flipside, some of the Airmen have issues too.

[weazlefuzion]

You won't find me personally attacking anyone without just cause. Even then, I normally won't stoop to their level. You have some valid points. May I ask are you still active duty and what rank?

You make many good points and I hope your style of leadership permeates through the leadership tiers and finds its ways to my career before I get fed up and decide to become 'Army Strong'. And yes, sir, I am an Active Duty Senior Airman who's a huge advocate of the old military and a strong and powerful NCO Corps. I believe the Air Force could be great if Air Staff wasn't wrestling with an identity crisis and was willing to learn from the services who have been around for a couple hundred years. The USMC, with all its own problems of course, has still produced the best NCOs I have ever met because of how fiercely they encourage leadership at the lowest levels. I've been making all these same remarks in my own thread here: http://www.militarytimes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1569991

[AF Chief]

I agree with you on the Marines and even the Army. I think the AF could learn a lot from their acts of disciipline. Some of the their things I don't agree with, but they have it "spot on" when it comes to discipline. I remember working with them in Iraq as a SMSgt. You talk about respect. I asked them to do something and I got nothing but a respectful answer even standing at attention sometimes with a "Yes Sir!" as their last words. I am trying to enforce that same style of discipline here in my flight. I am hard on my Airmen, but I reward them just as much. Very rarely is a "wishy-washy", "Yes Man" ever respected. Back in the day, people absolutely hated General Patton. They said he was the biggest a##hole to grace the earth. But, those same people said they would take a bullet for him just by him asking them to do so.

I will never forget back in the early 2000s when I was attending the SNCO Academy. Some MSgt asked retired Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force Paul Airey what he thought of "mentorship". This was when the AF was really trying to mentor people and holding their hands. CMSAF Airey said, "Back in day, mentorship was when I asked a Airman to do something and he didn't do it, he got a quick kick in the a$$! (not a direct quote...doing this from memory). People cracked up laughing. But, in a way...it made sense.

[Shrike]

When foreign nations look at our military, it's not because of our planes, our guns, or our tanks. Foreign nations admire our NCO corps, the power NCOs have, and the discipline they can instill with the full brunt of the UCMJ behind their actions.


In my 20+ years of experience, I can say that this is incorrect. It has nothing to do with NCOs - foreign nations, especially underdeveloped ones, are in AWE of our airpower, be it our ability to accurately put bombs on target or our airlift capabilities.

[Shrike]

but we have by far the worst and least disciplined military organization of all the world's civilized nations.


So you've deployed or served with all of the militaries of "all the world's civilized nations." That's pretty impressive for an E-4. How many nations was that exactly? Whose standards of "civilized" were used to determine whether they were a civilized nation?


:rolleyes:

You actually have a few good points here and there. But when you smother them in idiotic hyperbole, you've got to expect that people are going to tune you out.

[weazlefuzion]

So you've deployed or served with all of the militaries of "all the world's civilized nations." That's pretty impressive for an E-4. How many nations was that exactly? Whose standards of "civilized" were used to determine whether they were a civilized nation?


:rolleyes:

You actually have a few good points here and there. But when you smother them in idiotic hyperbole, you've got to expect that people are going to tune you out.

One does not have to deploy or work with all the other nations to see the discipline they have. Pick up a book every once and a while. If it took first-hand experience to be able to preach the lessons learned, no one would get anywhere. This is philosophy and a whole lot of knowledge can be gleaned from the right news article, an encyclopedia entry, through-the-grapevine explanations, or a book. As far as the term "civilized", it's a pretty standard term when describing much of the Western world and the rising powers in the Mid- and Far East.

Also, your other comment regarding air power, of course nations look on in awe at our technology and global reach, but that is not why foreign generals walk through my base and interview NCOs and officers on the enlisted ranks and how they are run. Technology comes with research and espionage, but our military law and the resulting enlisted corps is very different from the rest of the world, even England who still has very much an aristocracy-based air about the military.

[Shrike]

One does not have to deploy or work with all the other nations to see the discipline they have. Pick up a book every once and a while. If it took first-hand experience to be able to preach the lessons learned, no one would get anywhere. This is philosophy and a whole lot of knowledge can be gleaned from the right news article, an encyclopedia entry, through-the-grapevine explanations, or a book. As far as the term "civilized", it's a pretty standard term when describing much of the Western world and the rising powers in the Mid- and Far East.

Also, your other comment regarding air power, of course nations look on in awe at our technology and global reach, but that is not why foreign generals walk through my base and interview NCOs and officers on the enlisted ranks and how they are run. Technology comes with research and espionage, but our military law and the resulting enlisted corps is very different from the rest of the world, even England who still has very much an aristocracy-based air about the military.



I'm just going to chalk up your ridiculous statement "we have by far the worst and least disciplined military organization of all the world's civilized nations. " as you talking out of your ass.

[weazlefuzion]

I'm just going to chalk up your ridiculous statement "we have by far the worst and least disciplined military organization of all the world's civilized nations. " as you talking out of your ass.

You know what? Agreed. I got caught up in the moment of the argument. Regardless, this detracts from the original argument. I can see you've been around the forums longer than I have, but thus far, every post you've made in this thread has been irrelevant ad hominem attacks on my posts. I don't want to be a dick, but please feel free to actually contribute to the argument at hand. I agreed with the OP regarding the horrible status quo of our NCO Corps and presented my argument. Agree or disagree, and why?

[Shrike]

You know what? Agreed. I got caught up in the moment of the argument. Regardless, this detracts from the original argument. I can see you've been around the forums longer than I have, but thus far, every post you've made in this thread has been irrelevant ad hominem attacks on my posts. I don't want to be a dick, but please feel free to actually contribute to the argument at hand. I agreed with the OP regarding the horrible status quo of our NCO Corps and presented my argument. Agree or disagree, and why?

And these have been in response to gross exagerrations and flat-out incorrect statements, and I respect the fact that you admit to that.

As far as the topic, I both agree and disagree. But I would need to type up about a 10,000 word essay - and that's not an exaggeration, that's an educated guesstimate - to lay out my arguments about my perceptions of the change in ALL levels of leadership, not just the NCO Corps, that the USAF has experienced since the event that I consider has had the greatest affect on the world (both in it's immediate impact and it's repercussions throughout the world, and specifically in the US's military posture ) in my time in the USAF. That event is the fall of the Berlin Wall.

[weazlefuzion]

And these have been in response to gross exagerrations and flat-out incorrect statements, and I respect the fact that you admit to that.

As far as the topic, I both agree and disagree. But I would need to type up about a 10,000 word essay - and that's not an exaggeration, that's an educated guesstimate - to lay out my arguments about my perceptions of the change in ALL levels of leadership, not just the NCO Corps, that the USAF has experienced since the event that I consider has had the greatest affect on the world (both in it's immediate impact and it's repercussions throughout the world, and specifically in the US's military posture ) in my time in the USAF. That event is the fall of the Berlin Wall.

If the fall of the Berlin wall is the end all be all of our problems, we need to trace forward a few steps to where the major changes happened and see how the pros weigh against the cons. What were those major changes? Air Corps to Air Force, our own structure after separating from Army, the "new military" with it's changes in discipline doctrine and the UCMJ, the dissolution of SAC? Where did it start? Are all the services in line for the same demise, or is it just the Air Force?

[Combat correspondent]

You got one off the fat boy program & two to look sharp, but still dont say if they can do their job.

OK. They can do their jobs. Caveaut, a big part of their job is PT, fitness standards, and looking sharp. If they can't look professional in their uniforms - then they can't be trusted to work without direct supervision, they are adverse to recruiting and they tarnish the AF image all together.

But, since you are focused on their "job." Two of the three were always hard workers on the bench. I was in maintenance back then and they worked hard. The third needed to be beat about his head and shoulders in that realm too.

[johca]

If it took first-hand experience to be able to preach the lessons learned, no one would get anywhere. This is philosophy and a whole lot of knowledge can be gleaned from the right news article, an encyclopedia entry, through-the-grapevine explanations, or a book. As far as the term "civilized", it's a pretty standard term when describing much of the Western world and the rising powers in the Mid- and Far East.Competent military leading does require something more than book learning.

Even the best leader needs time to get to know his men before they go into environment of extreme hardship and perils. Within the team, nobody follows an unknown leader whole heartedly or puts their life in the hand of somebody having unknown experience, qualifications, or proficiencies. Within the U.S. armed forces it is the NCO typically leading functioning small-units going into harms way doing the actions where casualties and death are high probability. Within the Army and Marines these unique NCOs are the E-4, E-5, and E-6 pay grade NCOs who are platoon leaders, squad leaders, and team leaders. Unfortunately the Air Force has very few such similar tactical combat units and its organization focus is highly skilled workforce with little direct connection with implementing instructions of the combat chain-of-command to gain a military objective.

Similarly not all performance and discipline problems can be traced to inexperience and inadequate training and discipline being given to first term airmen. Neither can the blame be thrown on inadequate leaders within the Air Force’s NCO ranks, particularly when very few Air Force NCOs are in positions requiring them to supervise unit operations autonomously under the difficult and demanding conditions of engaged ground combat with enemy forces or leading with command authority a small team into environment of extreme hardship and perils. This is one of several reasons of why E-4 SrA rank and grade has no NCO status within the Air Force and US armed forces. If the Air Force NCO corps is lacking in NCO leaders, perhaps it is more a symptom of the Air Force is primarily needing more specialist/technician pay grades without NCO rank than it has need of NCOs to be the lowest command authority in the combat-chain-of-command. A noncommissioned officer’s duties are numerous and it does include know and understand those under their supervision well enough to train them as individuals and teams to operate proficiently. It does include taking care of them to a point; although there is no clear checklist for determining this point, it does exist and discerning this point requires a bit more than book learning, it often requires experience and fortitude to make the decision.

In regards to NCO rank and duties are you aware administrative demotions can happen for substandard performance (AFI 36-2503) for failure to attain and sustain appropriate skill level for grade and rank. More importantly administrative demotion of NCO rank can result from failure to fulfill NCO responsibilities (AFI 36-2503). These administrative demotions are not the same as UCMJ punitive demotions as no chargeable offense is required and are not suspended meaning DOR goes back to zero and the member has to compete for promotion again to regain the lost rank and grade.



I am surpirsed you are all so eager to give up on your Airmen. But, that explains a lot.In what way. By the time the individual gets to their first unit of assignment they have been through BMT, they have been through all the required core task and skill training for award of a 3-skill level. If hygiene and proper uniform wear was not an issue during BMT or mandatory required technical schooling why is it suddenly an issue at the first or subsequent unit of assignment? The purpose of BMT is to transition from little or no discipline to an environment of military discipline, life style changes from isolated and comfortable life style to one of forced marches, physical activity and being housed in close proximity with complete strangers. If there is a social adjustment, emotional instability or an intrapersonal problem of getting along with others or other problems of adapting to military life style it is most probable to be detected during BMT.

[johca]

I disagree when it comes to a new recruit. Behavior and attitude is easily modified in BMT, Behavioral problems resulting from undesirable character trait typically are not modified during BMT or at unit doing or supporting day-to-day operations of the Air Force. Gaining maturity and strengthening judgment and self discipline through the learning situations, training environment, and hardships of BMT doesn’t change an individual’s most primal character traits and attitude.



The legal liabilities brought about with wall-to-wall counseling and other such things are only there because the military allowed it in. Obviously things cannot be excessive, but there is no reason an NCO should not be able to grab an Airman by the arm and say "shut the hell up", or order him to dig holes or move sand bags. Physical punishment alleviates the time it takes to write paperwork and keeps the punishment easily at the lowest level.The military couldn’t prevent it, even the frequency of wall-to-wall given within the Marine corps is no longer as common as it was in the mid-1980s and it had already declined from the frequency of occurrence given during the 1970s. The lawsuits, Congressional Inquiries, the IG inquiries demonstrate beyond doubt why physical punishment is no longer an allowed tool within the Air Force unless it is impose hard labor as a result of an Article 15 or Courts-martial conviction.



Additionally, weekend liberty has nothing to do with the fact that Airmen can still legally be restricted to the base over a weekend or for another amount of time, and this power should be used (by officers, or delegated to SNCOs).Correct in policy, but impractical in practice. If the military member is living in base housing or off base housing how is such arrest, confinement, restriction going to be imposed and enforced? The days of pre 1947 and possibly as late as 1960 days where enlisted were housed in open bay barracks and the NCO had 24/7 accountability of insuring all enlisted were present and accounted for to perform military duties are long gone. The typical Air Base isn’t like a ship at port where getting on and off the ship requires getting past the deck NCO or officer of the watch. The Gate guards are no longer checking for liberty pass to get off the base and all that is being checked is ID to get back on base.



You took my statement totally out of context. That was simply a response the post I quoted, obviously not to be taken literally. However, your statement brings to light an issue in my other post regarding discipline in the Air Force. You act as if an Airman is getting paid in a normal job, so if he doesn't perform, he's gone. This is not a corporation; this is the military, and the Airman has chosen to serve. I am a firm believer that BMT and AETC have completely failed our Airmen and have not provided them proper training. I didn’t take you out of context. You are misguided with belief all reoccurring misbehavior, less than desirable conduct and below standards performance results from insufficient training, improper training, or no training at all and that such deficiencies are generally always easily corrected in a timely cost effective way by giving the proper training. This is a false belief.

It is a by–pass of critical thinking and reasoned judgment to assert choice to serve negates requirement to perform military duties to standards. There is an issue of free will and self determination and degrees of culpability. Causes for failure are not always connected to lack of adequate training. Giving training isn’t always going to result in improving performance, behavior or conduct.

The voluntary choice to serve a military obligation is done for compensation just as is the choice to work for a civilian employer for wages. Enlisted members of the military are trained to perform duties of an AFSC and are paid and given entitlement to other compensation and veteran benefits to perform military duties. The military service’s training obligation is to provide training the individual is both mentally and physically able to learn and do. The member getting the benefits of vocational or technical training and accepting compensation (salary) and other military and veterans entitlements brings with it obligation to perform all military duties to minimum or better standards and to have responsibility for actions.

Failure to progress, failure to qualify, failure to succeed, and failure to sustain proficiency may result from reasons within the individual’s control and for reasons beyond the individuals control. However, in some occupations such failure to sustain proficiency and qualification opportunity was provided and undesirable behaviors and conduct exposes the individual to harming themselves and exposes others to avoidable risks of injury and death. Training is no longer the solution if performance failure was within the individuals control and adequate proficiency and qualification training opportunity was provided or results from loss or lack of functional fitness to obtain or sustain qualification to perform duties. In such cases involuntary reclassification into a less demanding AFSC, involuntary separation, and/or punitive disciplinary action is appropriate.



An NCO's obligation is not only to his unit, but also to the Air Force. When an Airman has completed BMT and Finance training, maybe it makes sense to just throw him out, but I've seen it happen in fields where much more money and training (linguists and spec ops) has been put forth and an Airman is tossed out of the military.Some career fields have specific functional fitness and mission ready qualification standards and in this regard a replacement can’t be put at the unit the person who is no longer contributing is removed from the unit's manning rooster. Air Force Recruiting Service and AETC can’t put a replacement into training until the funded manpower CAFSC position becomes available.

[johca]

It is the NCO's responsibility to make sure the Air Force isn't going to lose money by throwing out someone who could be improved with the proper guidance from a superior. You should not be an NCO just because you pass a test or you're good at your job. You should be an NCO because you are well-aware that you will take on extra duties with regard to leadership and mentoring and you are confident in your ability to perform those duties.The NCO job is to correctly access situations and select the proper solution in the performance of a broad range of duties. Those duties include reducing absenteeism/ lost workday cases (having accountability all are present or accounted for and doing their fair share of the work), improved morale (having to do others work while they get full pay and entitlements does impact morale), lower turnover rates (having different standards and expectations for boot lickers and malingerers decreases effectiveness of no punitive administrative corrective actions as others see undesirable behavior and poor performance is being tolerated).

If the better solution is to provide extra guidance and training, make it so, if the better solution is to administratively separate or deal with it through the military justice system, so be it.



See above response. Same deal, the obligation is not just to the unit, but the organization. Safety and standards can be impaired just the same when an Airman is thrown out and his spot takes months to fill because there aren't any recruits coming in because the money was already spent on the guy they tossed.The beneficial is not about money. The loser and failure is thrown out as nothing useful is being contributed and training will not change this lack of contribution. Replacement cannot happen until the vacant funded manpower position exists. In real military jobs there are qualified and proficient to perform duties standards. Medical disqualifications have equal cause to cause separation as inability or unwillingness to do job for other reasons.



You are obviously not a mental health professional. Character traits are "developed" at an early age, then they continue to develop well into later lifeBut I’m quite capable of knowing when to refer a behavior problem to mental health professionals and other types of professional help. I also know quite bit about functional fitness and PULHES standards.

Functional Fitness is the whole person requirement of what is the minimum athletic, physiological, psychological, biological health needed to do the tasks and mission that is typically expected to be done in any job classification. The elements pertinent to physiological are mental fitness, emotional fitness and cognitive fitness.



You are absolutely correct that judgment is directly related to cognitive ability and character to attitudes, values and beliefs, and this is also the exact contradiction to what you just said. Your cognitive ability changes daily based simply on diet, mood, etc, how you interpret those things comes from your character, which, as you agree, is based upon attitudes, values, and beliefs. Those change daily and if attitude changes based on the situation, and values based on what one has learned, and beliefs based upon those values then character changes just as often. Depending on how drastic the underlying changes are, then character may change just as drastically too. That could happen when I'm forced to do something humiliating (and humiliation is not cruel or wrong, it's part of life) like learning to bathe with my supervisor's instruction.Daily emotional and mental fitness generally lacks the variability in an individual to the level you are suggesting. Identity achievement, occupational preferences and the majority of psychosocial and moral development has happened by age 18. How one copes, adapts, and interacts with environment, situations, and circumstances are fully established deeply engrained personality characteristics by age 18.



Once again, that cost savings may apply in a services position, but what about longer pipelines, where an Airman has cost the taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars? It is your duty to see to it that they get their money's worth and don't give up on square one.The pararescue training pipeline has pretty much been among the longest and most expensive in the Air Force. The only way these days for a person having no prior service to become a PJ I to enlist with a GTEP contract. The selection process determines who has the required functional fitness to perform the duties as pen and paper aptitude assessment, PAST, Class III Flight physical, PULHES standards are insufficient to determine possession of the being there performing duties functional fitness. Award of 3-skill level, 5-skill level, 7-skill level and even 9-skill level is not proof of functional fitness to perform duties or fitness to lead.



Your second paragraph was already covered. The training has failed us all and you can't hold new Airmen responsible for that, nor can you hold taxpayers financially responsible for it. I've already shown that character can change, so nothing more need be said on that.Quality not quantity and the new airman can be held accountable and the taxpayers are better off for it. Unless conscripted the obligation and privileges of serving has fiscal constraints, even if conscripted the potential military member must meet certain prerequisites of physically and mentally qualified to perform military service. Classification for military training to perform military duties is also a selection system of aptitude and physical and mental eligibility requirements. The purpose of military service is always insure the security of the nation and this service just like other services of government has fiscal constraints that extend into how many NCOs and Commissioned officers the Air force can have in it force structure to provide supervision and management. There is also a limit imposed on numbers in the career force structure which is the entry into the third and subsequent enlistments.



It is the above type of attitude that is destroying the NCO Corps and therefore our Air Force. I don't blame you for anything you've said above however, because that's how senior leadership leads and that's how they write the doctrine. They then expect NCOs to digest and repeat. The problem is, it isn't working. I can think for myself, and so can any NCO, so the power needs to be given to them to use that ability in the molding of the US Air Force.Actually it is misguided idiots who believe all individual performance, behavior, and conduct failure is more likely if not certainly-so to be the result of bad policies, programs and leaders and not the result of a character flaw. If it is a character flaw the individual had no control to choose and thus shouldn’t be held accountable to any consequences. The misguided fantasy is the lack of accountability and consequences is exactly why individuals with character flaws get promoted or in the case of politicians get voted into positions of authority and power.



I'll leave you with this:
"The discipline which makes the soldiers of a free country reliable in battle is not to be gained by harsh or tyrannical treatment. On the contrary, such treatment is far more likely to destroy than to make an army. It is possible to impart instruction and give commands in such a manner and such a tone of voice as to inspire in the soldier an intense desire to obey, while the opposite manner and tone of voice cannot fail to excite strong resentment and a desire to disobey. The one mode or other of dealing with subordinates springs from a corresponding spirit in the breast of the commander. He who feels the respect which is due to others cannot fail to inspire in them respect for himself, while he who feels and hence manifests disrespect towards others, especially his subordinates, cannot fail to inspire hatred against himself."
- Maj Gen John M. Schofield

First, push-ups and other physical punishments that we've used in the last decade or two are not "harsh or tyrannical" in any manner, so don't make that argument. It's the emboldened part is where I'd like attention because it applies to NCOs as well as commanders. An NCO must know how to instruct in such a manner that the Airman wants to follow the orders. The Airman doesn't need to have personal respect for the NCO, he will have respect for all NCOs when he sees that they all know how to not only lead properly, but also to know how to follow properly. The Airman will not respect an NCO as an NCO when he can greet him with "what's up" or when the NCOs don't make on the spot corrections in front of others to show that standards are enforced and if not followed to the 'T', then the disrespect will be reciprocated in the form of 'motivational training'.When you get promoted from SrA to SSgt and perhaps are given some NCO responsibilities you might have some sort of line NCO authority to actually issue lawful orders in the being there directing and leading a team to accomplish some sort of mission. Considering you are in the Air Force it is unlikely you are performing any military duties as a being there member of a direct action team beyond the safety and comfort of the perimeter wire. It is unlikely if you do progress up the ranks to E-9 that you will ever be in a decision making position of team leading where it is your immediate decision in response to an unexpected threat that will keep those working beside you safe and alive. When you get some NCO and line authority experience you may gain some creditability in discussing both NCO duties and what it takes to actually truly lead others.

Nobody follows an unknown leader whole heartedly or puts their life in the hand of somebody having unknown experience, qualifications, or proficiencies. Trust, respect, and loyalty are earned and this gives credibility to authority to lead. Motivational training does not give the respect I earned from my team leaders and peers. Motivational training didn’t build the respect from those I led. Motivational training most certainly didn’t contribute to the respect of unit commanders and mission commanders who delegated me considerable command authority to lead teams and accomplish missions. It came from being there and successfully accomplishing in a way that avoided reckless actions in ignorance or from incompetence that resulted in keeping the team from getting killed or injured both during training missions and actual missions.

In the real world I went through a training process that relies quite a bit on ordering students to do pushups. There are actual training objectives behind such activity, the operational world an NCO PJ ordering a 3-skill level PJ would not only be laughed at by the airman, he would be laughed at by his peers. The effectiveness of directing pushups as motivation training or corrective action outside of a formal training environment is imaginary. I was dropped at airborne course by the Army and combat diver course by the Navy and dropped during 18 months of PJ training.

In the real world of life and death events needing a team to respond leaders are always the most qualified and experienced member on the team. It is more a matter of skill level, certification, and experience than it is rank and grade. Regardless the team leader is the lowest chain of command authority. The type of authority is if sitting on a C-130 searching at 0100 hours over the North Atlantic in January with winds faster than 25 knots and sea state 20 plus feet you find the sinking ship or downed pilot and decisions are needing to be made to jump or not. It is up to the tam leader to convince the team, aircraft commander and the mission commander thousands of miles away the mission is doable if that is his assessment. Close by the mission commander is probably a Senior NCO PJ or a CRO who is giving their assessment to the mission commander of whether the team has the qualifications and experience to do the mission.

Another situation is F-111s are doing a bombing run to take out a target in Tripoli Libya. Flying low level over the shoreline is two HH-53s with a PJ team on each, a bit further off shore is an HC-13o with a PJ team with parachutes and gear also ready to respond. Had the ELT beacon or voice of the downed crewmembers been locked onto decisions would have been made and the probability is a PJ team would have been on the ground.

There is a lot of trust involved in this type of decision making. The only certainty I have is your motivational concepts and fantasies of doing pushups don’t work.

[weazlefuzion]

If the better solution is to provide extra guidance and training, make it so, if the better solution is to administratively separate or deal with it through the military justice system, so be it.
The problem is, the solution is, from what I've seen, often extra guidance and training. However, no NCOs seem to want to get their hands dirty anymore and just write paperwork.


When you get promoted from SrA to SSgt and perhaps are given some NCO responsibilities you might have some sort of authority to actually issue lawful orders to direct a tram to accomplish a mission, considering you are in the Air Force and not a contributing member of any team accomplishing any sort of mission you might have some creditability in discussing both NCO duties and what it takes to actually truly lead others.
Obviously any discussion like this with a combat-arms related career NCO is going to be one-sided. The style of leadership needed in the field is a bit different from what's needed in the office. I may be a SrA, but I am in directly in charge of almost two dozen Airmen daily. I track their progress, professional deficiencies, and personal issues. I have never recommended paperwork for these Airmen to the NCO above me because I know there are more effective methods. I generally discourage the paperwork method.

The whole 'motivational training' deal is only one example. I have one Airman who showed up late often. I now personally go to his dorm and wake him every morning. We go to chow and head to work together. It won't last forever, but it will last until I feel he's either made progress or we've hit a wall and maybe administrative action is the only remaining option.

I may not be an NCO, but AFI 36-2618 provides me the authority to issue lawful orders to all Airmen placed under me. If they're late for PT, we PT together. Late from lunch, we have lunch together. They have any other problem, I get very closely involved in the manner and attempt to fix it. I don't need LOCs and LORs for people being late to formation. I don't need to discharge the smelly kid.

The problem is about being able to order people to do push ups, it's about the lack of training given to NCOs about being creative with discipline so as to squeeze out every last bit of betterment from guidance and training given.


Nobody follows an unknown leader whole heartedly or puts their life in the hand of somebody having unknown experience, qualifications, or proficiencies. Trust, respect, and loyalty are earned and this gives credibility to authority.
There is little "unknown experience, qualifications, or proficiencies" when NCOs are all trained properly and there is uniformity to the disciplinary approach. I have those aforementioned hesitations with most Air Force NCOs I meet. But after being with one Army unit and co-stationed with two Marine Detachments, I've seen the difference in the style of leadership encouraged from the top. When a Marine NCO says "jump!", I don't have to ask "how high?", I just jump and hope I'm doing it right. If not, he corrects me on the spot and we go on with our day because I know he was professionally correcting me, not personally.

Airmen and AF NCOs are the opposite. They are often friends because the line between professional and unprofessional relationships is very gray outside of combat positions. Therefore, the NCO doesn't want to correct his friend for fear of him taking it personally. The Airman will often take it personally because he's simply friends with John and not SSgt Smith.


In the real world I went through a training process that relies quite a bit on ordering students to do pushups. There are actual training objectives behind such activity, the operational world an NCO PJ ordering a 3-skill level PJ would not only be laughed at by the airman, he would be laughed at by his peers. The effectiveness of directing pushups as motivation training or corrective action outside of a formal training environment is imaginary. I was dropped at airborne course by the Army and combat diver course by the Navy and dropped during 18 months of PJ training.
There is always a training objective to any type of PT. It's betterment. 1) if someone sweats it out for a while in front of peers and is mildly embarrassed, he may think twice before repeating the same stupid action, and 2) PT is an obvious problem in the Air Force and a few pushups wouldn't hurt. Of course PJs wouldn't be bothered by pushups, but it would sure as hell get through to the personnelist.


In the real world of life and death events needing a team to respond leaders are always the most qualified and experienced member on the team. It is more a matter of skill level, certification, and experience than it is rank and grade.
This applies very much with a combat-arms position; I totally agree. The Army's promotion system is much better geared to give the rank to those with the experience than the Air Force's system. So much stress is put on TIS and TIG and PDG. This becomes a problem everywhere because there may be an Airman who's done the job for real in the heat of the moment, but doesn't get the deserved rank and authority to instruct and lead. Instead, he stays an E-3 and simply teaches the E-6 or E-7.


Regardless the team leader is the lowest chain of command authority. The type of authority is if sitting on a C-130 searching at 0100 hours over the North Atlantic in January with winds faster than 25 knots and sea state 20 plus feet you find the sinking ship or downed pilot and decisions are needing to be made to jump or not. It is up to the tam leader to convince the team, aircraft commander and the mission commander thousands of miles away the mission is doable if that is his assessment. Close by the mission commander is probably a Senior NCO PJ or a CRO who is giving their assessment to the mission commander of whether the team has the qualifications and experience to do the mission.

Another situation is F-111s are doing a bombing run to take out a target in Tripoli Libya. Flying low level over the shoreline is two HH-53s with a PJ team on each, a bit further off shore is an HC-13o with a PJ team with parachutes and gear also ready to respond. Had the ELT beacon or voice of the downed crewmembers been locked onto decisions would have been made and the probability is a PJ team would have been on the ground.
These are very career-specific leadership roles. Finance is not Combat Finance. IMers don't give me my GTC in the heat of combat, but they all still have NCOs that are expected to lead subordinated and command authority, even outside of combat.


There is a lot of trust involved in this type of decision making. The only certainty I have is your motivational concepts and fantasies of doing pushups don’t work.
The pushups, with lower-enlisted Airmen isn't a matter of making them do pushups to actually increase their capacity to do their job. It's a team-building effort, no different from putting the entire squadron on lockdown for a couple idiots with DUIs. If 50 people are doing pushups because you screwed up, you're going to have a lot of pissed off Airmen making sure you don't make the same mistake... they'll do it by being leaders at every level. The motivational PT in a group encourages that leadership.

[SinisterK9]

I look at disciplining Airmen with very similar methods we use in dog training. Compulsion training (pain), and Inducive training (gentle persuasion). While I am not entirely literal with my example, the principle remains the same. There is no one (1) correct way to train or discipline Airmen. While some sort of spectacular training event such as a motivational ruck march with gas masks on may reach one Airman, paperwork may be what reaches another. And a simple tounge lashing might be all it takes for yet another.
Motivations and attitudes are different for each, and discipline should be tailored accordingly in my opinion. Not everyone can be reached. Some are beyond saving, no matter how hard you try. While those are few and far between, they do exist.
That said, keep in mind, those of you who are willing to go against the AFi's (break the law) to discipline your Airmen, just be willing to accept your due punishment should it come down the pipe. Also, its kind of hard to teach your subordinates discipline, when you are willing to disobey protocol to 'teach them a lesson'. There is a fine line between discipline/training/punishment. Keep in mind, Enlisted don't punish.

[weazlefuzion]

I look at disciplining Airmen with very similar methods we use in dog training. Compulsion training (pain), and Inducive training (gentle persuasion). While I am not entirely literal with my example, the principle remains the same. There is no one (1) correct way to train or discipline Airmen. While some sort of spectacular training event such as a motivational ruck march with gas masks on may reach one Airman, paperwork may be what reaches another. And a simple tounge lashing might be all it takes for yet another.
Motivations and attitudes are different for each, and discipline should be tailored accordingly in my opinion. Not everyone can be reached. Some are beyond saving, no matter how hard you try. While those are few and far between, they do exist.
That said, keep in mind, those of you who are willing to go against the AFi's (break the law) to discipline your Airmen, just be willing to accept your due punishment should it come down the pipe. Also, its kind of hard to teach your subordinates discipline, when you are willing to disobey protocol to 'teach them a lesson'. There is a fine line between discipline/training/punishment. Keep in mind, Enlisted don't punish.

Agreed. I haven't seen anyone breaking the law regarding discipline, but that doesn't mean the AFI is right, right? The ruck march may not reach everyone, much like paperwork, but the option should certainly be there for an NCO to use if they wish. That particular example of ruck march may be there to some extent (if it's fashioned as otherwise useful and the unit has the equipment), but things like the unit doing a good ol' fashion smoke session together for disciplinary reasons is not.

[SinisterK9]

Agreed. I haven't seen anyone breaking the law regarding discipline, but that doesn't mean the AFI is right, right? The ruck march may not reach everyone, much like paperwork, but the option should certainly be there for an NCO to use if they wish. That particular example of ruck march may be there to some extent (if it's fashioned as otherwise useful and the unit has the equipment), but things like the unit doing a good ol' fashion smoke session together for disciplinary reasons is not.

It depends on what you mean by "right". If you mean ethically right or wrong, well that might depend on who you ask and what their personal ethics and morals entail. So far as legally speaking, it has been deemed the law of the land through the appropriate channels and chain of command. So in that sense it is right. I wasn't pointing the finger at you for the breaking the law remark. A couple posts just made me think about it.

I'm lucky enough (or unlucky enough) to be in a career field with plenty of ruck sacks, weapons and gear that I can take my flight on a foot patrol around the 10 mile base perimeter, all the while practicing our ground combat skills, and repelling an invisible enemy from the base fence line. Now, I've never had the need to go to such extremes, but my squadron does encourage motivational training. My squadron has also sent several Airmen to Correctional Custody over the last year and a half or so. Each Airman has been fully rehabilitated at this point. So for them, it worked. We also have a SWAT (seeds weeds and trash team)/ROD squad (relieved of duty) when necessary.

But for me, I've always been able to deal with Airmen without going down the physical road. But I always leave my options open.

[BRUWIN]

When I was a young troop I was ordered to the Aircraft washrack detail for a month after a couple of "incidents." One week into it I wished I was dead. Scrubbing the rear F-111 wheel well with PD-680 tearing up my skin despite despite wearing a rubber suit and water from every direction being sprayed at me from the people on the top and sides of the aircraft in 40 degree English winter weather made it the most miserable experience in all my time in the Air Force. We did two, sometimes three, aircraft per night and it took roughly 4 hours per Jet. All the other guys washing were assigned only for that particular jet's wash. I was assigned to every damn jet that came to the washrack. There were no breaks and i was always soaked , freezing, and developed skin lesions from the chemicals. The washrack supervisor tried to make me go to the hospital once he saw my arms after taking off my suit when we were finished for the night. I wouldn't go. I just didn't want my shop chief to think I was a whiner after he cut the deal with my Shirt to send me to washrack rather than CC. I was a very compliant airman after that experience,

[Combat correspondent]

When I was a young troop I was ordered to the Aircraft washrack detail for a month after a couple of "incidents." One week into it I wished I was dead. Scrubbing the rear F-111 wheel well with PD-680 tearing up my skin despite despite wearing a rubber suit and water from every direction being sprayed at me from the people on the top and sides of the aircraft in 40 degree English winter weather made it the most miserable experience in all my time in the Air Force. We did two, sometimes three, aircraft per night and it took roughly 4 hours per Jet. All the other guys washing were assigned only for that particular jet's wash. I was assigned to every damn jet that came to the washrack. There were no breaks and i was always soaked , freezing, and developed skin lesions from the chemicals. The washrack supervisor tried to make me go to the hospital once he saw my arms after taking off my suit when we were finished for the night. I wouldn't go. I just didn't want my shop chief to think I was a whiner after he cut the deal with my Shirt to send me to washrack rather than CC. I was a very compliant airman after that experience,

What do you know? Real, genuine proof that what I've been ranting about really works. I wish I could get Mr.Twinkie boy on here to testify too. I am not sure why certain people doubt that real "mentoring" or "training" of this sort works - history has shown time and time again that it does! Thanks for sharing.

[taeisme]

I have been the AF for 11 years now and this is the first time that I have felt like EVERY NCO in my chain has failed me. I have been here for a year and in the first 2 months of me being here, my son got diagnosed and is not considered a special needs child. The first thing I did was go to my supervisor (who is a MSgt), I was a SSgt at the time. What he told me, literally left me speechless. "You know I really don't care, it's not really my job to know your personal life. I am really just middle managment, you need to find one of the TSgt's and let them know." That is what my immediate supervisor told me. I had to update my family care plan, we couldn't find an availbe provider to take care of my special needs child, we brought it up to both of our chains and MY First Sergeant says "Well, if you knew your kid was going to be an issue, you shouldn't have come here". Well it's 10 months and alot of doctors appoinments later, I am now coded EFMP and we are being reassigned back to the states because where we are at cannot provide the care required for my child. My leadership was so shocked to learn that we were leaving. The apparently didn't have a clue?? After a year of telling them and emails, it's a HUGE surprise. I got alot of condcending speeches on communication and how its a shame that as an NCO i should be able to communicate better with those in my chain....

What I have gone though in this year at this base at this squadron has left me quite bitter, because what happened to people helping people? How can we as NCO's expect our Airmen to care when some of us obviously don't? I still did my job, I still took care of my Airmen and civilians that work for me. How can we fix a problem when our NCO corps is so badly in need of repair?

[weazlefuzion]

What do you know? Real, genuine proof that what I've been ranting about really works. I wish I could get Mr.Twinkie boy on here to testify too. I am not sure why certain people doubt that real "mentoring" or "training" of this sort works - history has shown time and time again that it does! Thanks for sharing.

I've seen a very similar argument going on over at afforums.com and the thread is full of people bitching out the few that agree with this kind of training. Of course, they're all NCOs and junior enlisted AF personnel and now this happy-go-lucky treatment is what the current generation of leadership expects to receive and dish out. It's maddening.



I have been the AF for 11 years now and this is the first time that I have felt like EVERY NCO in my chain has failed me. I have been here for a year and in the first 2 months of me being here, my son got diagnosed and is not considered a special needs child. The first thing I did was go to my supervisor (who is a MSgt), I was a SSgt at the time. What he told me, literally left me speechless. "You know I really don't care, it's not really my job to know your personal life. I am really just middle managment, you need to find one of the TSgt's and let them know." That is what my immediate supervisor told me. I had to update my family care plan, we couldn't find an availbe provider to take care of my special needs child, we brought it up to both of our chains and MY First Sergeant says "Well, if you knew your kid was going to be an issue, you shouldn't have come here". Well it's 10 months and alot of doctors appoinments later, I am now coded EFMP and we are being reassigned back to the states because where we are at cannot provide the care required for my child. My leadership was so shocked to learn that we were leaving. The apparently didn't have a clue?? After a year of telling them and emails, it's a HUGE surprise. I got alot of condcending speeches on communication and how its a shame that as an NCO i should be able to communicate better with those in my chain....

What I have gone though in this year at this base at this squadron has left me quite bitter, because what happened to people helping people? How can we as NCO's expect our Airmen to care when some of us obviously don't? I still did my job, I still took care of my Airmen and civilians that work for me. How can we fix a problem when our NCO corps is so badly in need of repair?

It's something like this that I firmly believe would have been mitigated with a little more unit-based motivational training. Each of them, as Airmen, would have been more inclined from the start to care about fellow Airmen because they had to both succeed and fail together.

[Combat correspondent]

I have been the AF for 11 years now and this is the first time that I have felt like EVERY NCO in my chain has failed me. I have been here for a year and in the first 2 months of me being here, my son got diagnosed and is not considered a special needs child. The first thing I did was go to my supervisor (who is a MSgt), I was a SSgt at the time. What he told me, literally left me speechless. "You know I really don't care, it's not really my job to know your personal life. I am really just middle managment, you need to find one of the TSgt's and let them know." That is what my immediate supervisor told me. I had to update my family care plan, we couldn't find an availbe provider to take care of my special needs child, we brought it up to both of our chains and MY First Sergeant says "Well, if you knew your kid was going to be an issue, you shouldn't have come here". Well it's 10 months and alot of doctors appoinments later, I am now coded EFMP and we are being reassigned back to the states because where we are at cannot provide the care required for my child. My leadership was so shocked to learn that we were leaving. The apparently didn't have a clue?? After a year of telling them and emails, it's a HUGE surprise. I got alot of condcending speeches on communication and how its a shame that as an NCO i should be able to communicate better with those in my chain....

What I have gone though in this year at this base at this squadron has left me quite bitter, because what happened to people helping people? How can we as NCO's expect our Airmen to care when some of us obviously don't? I still did my job, I still took care of my Airmen and civilians that work for me. How can we fix a problem when our NCO corps is so badly in need of repair?


What a horrible experience! I hope I do not sound to harsh here but I really wish the paper-@ss NCOs that keep posting here and the ones that were "too busy" to help you there would just get the h^ll out of our Air Force!

You know, Taeisme, when I posted this thread "NCOs need to step up - emergency on horizon" I had hoped to stir the minds of the paper NCOs and hopefully show them a better way - an effective way to lead to save our Air Force. With each story like yours that is shared, the light of a future Air Force gets dimmer and dimmer.

Here's what you need to do....DO NOT separate!!! Instead you NEED to reenlist and make the changes and impacts around you that you can. Make your supervision change by never accepting the status quo. These people all feel they are too busy to lead first-hand. Well, if thats the case, they are in deriliction of their duties as NCOs and should face a courts marital on their way out the door. I guess that was more or less a rant but still, we've got a whole bunch (I'd speculate the majority) of people who post on here actually believe they should NOT get involved in their Airmens' lives and just administer paperwork when their troops f*ck up because they are not their to be his/her father or mother ---- or actually be a "real" NCO. What a crying shame!

[Combat correspondent]

It's something like this that I firmly believe would have been mitigated with a little more unit-based motivational training. Each of them, as Airmen, would have been more inclined from the start to care about fellow Airmen because they had to both succeed and fail together.

You are correct again weazlefuzion. When we succeed and fail together, we become a team. Trust me, when these n@sty b@stards were in the shower with me, they felt degraded as I talked to the both of them sarcastic as h*ll and made them feel 6 years old - especially on day 2 when we "tried it again."

Though they felt degraded and beat down, they learned their place and knew they did not want to give up another weekend taking showers, brushing teeth, shining boots and ironing cammies. Guess what this also did? Somewhere deep in their minds it planted a seed that "this guy really cares." After all, I had plans with my own wife and 3 kids but CHOSE to spend the weekend "mentoring" these little b@stards.

[weazlefuzion]

You are correct again weazlefuzion. When we succeed and fail together, we become a team. Trust me, when these n@sty b@stards were in the shower with me, they felt degraded as I talked to the both of them sarcastic as h*ll and made them feel 6 years old - especially on day 2 when we "tried it again."

Though they felt degraded and beat down, they learned their place and knew they did not want to give up another weekend taking showers, brushing teeth, shining boots and ironing cammies. Guess what this also did? Somewhere deep in their minds it planted a seed that "this guy really cares." After all, I had plans with my own wife and 3 kids but CHOSE to spend the weekend "mentoring" these little b@stards.

I hope there's more NCOs like you with patience willing to stick it out in the Air Force and fix it, because I've been in less than 3 years and I've already submitted a Blue-to-Green packet (which was denied because of my contract length). Unless I see some radical changes soon, I'm still going Army... where I can both earn my promotions on a system that makes sense, and properly counsel and mentor my subordinates without fear of reprisal from the ACLU or some cuddly-bubbles CC.

[Combat correspondent]

I hope there's more NCOs like you with patience willing to stick it out in the Air Force and fix it, because I've been in less than 3 years and I've already submitted a Blue-to-Green packet (which was denied because of my contract length). Unless I see some radical changes soon, I'm still going Army... where I can both earn my promotions on a system that makes sense, and properly counsel and mentor my subordinates without fear of reprisal from the ACLU or some cuddly-bubbles CC.

If I may recommend something to you...

There is a big temptation to go blue to green, I understand that. If you lateral into the Army or Navy, you get to keep your same paygrade, after all. The Air Force and Corps, on the other hand, tend to have a blanket demotion policy when people lateral in.

I prefer you stay blue. Still, I can understand your frustration and, if I were in your shoes, may consider the same things.

I started my career in the Corps. It was a fine life. I got demoted to come into the Air Force but was willing to accept the demotion as I saw the Air Force somewhat comparable to the Corps. Have you considered going to the Marines?

Right now, they are trying to "ramp up" their numbers. You will have to go to boot camp but you seem like a motto guy and think you'd enjoy it. I think you'll be demoted to E-3 (LCpl) but will be on a "fast track" to Cpl and Sgt. Your time in the Air Force will help you out as well - you'll bring a whole new breadth of experience to their table.

I'm not saying the Army is bad but, if I had to choose a branch other than AF, it would be the Corps all the way.

Take care with whatever you decide, brother.

[weazlefuzion]

If I may recommend something to you...

There is a big temptation to go blue to green, I understand that. If you lateral into the Army or Navy, you get to keep your same paygrade, after all. The Air Force and Corps, on the other hand, tend to have a blanket demotion policy when people lateral in.

I prefer you stay blue. Still, I can understand your frustration and, if I were in your shoes, may consider the same things.

I started my career in the Corps. It was a fine life. I got demoted to come into the Air Force but was willing to accept the demotion as I saw the Air Force somewhat comparable to the Corps. Have you considered going to the Marines?

Right now, they are trying to "ramp up" their numbers. You will have to go to boot camp but you seem like a motto guy and think you'd enjoy it. I think you'll be demoted to E-3 (LCpl) but will be on a "fast track" to Cpl and Sgt. Your time in the Air Force will help you out as well - you'll bring a whole new breadth of experience to their table.

I'm not saying the Army is bad but, if I had to choose a branch other than AF, it would be the Corps all the way.

Take care with whatever you decide, brother.

I've actually been leaning closer and closer to the Corps because of their leadership style. I love the old-school military they still manage to hold on to amidst all this happy horse sh!t in the other services. The only problem I'd have with going Corps vs. Army is the demotion to what I was told is E-2 (E-3 if I have enough college, which I may by that time). By the time the Air Force approves my conditional release from service, I'll be E-5, so it's a big pill to swallow to go back to the bottom of the pecking order. I'm starting to think it's more and more worth it however. I'm still a bit blinded by the tan beret in the 75th Ranger Regiment though. I guess I've got the next couple years to figure it out since the AF is not letting me go any time soon. It would be nice if the new CSAF and SECAF make the changes I want to see, but I really doubt it. They're still concerned with losing numbers because of people not wanting to "be like the Army" and "stay true to our heritage" even though they're one in the same.

[CrustySMSgt]

If I may recommend something to you...

There is a big temptation to go blue to green, I understand that...
I prefer you stay blue. Still, I can understand your frustration and, if I were in your shoes, may consider the same things.


Gotta agree with CC... the only thing "greener" on that side of the fence is the uniforms. If you don't think there are as many issues over there, you are mistaken... if you peruse the Army folder here, my money is on you finding just as many threads bitching about PT uniforms, evals, discipline, leadership, and all the rest. Just because they're more "hua" doesn't make them perfect.

There are some out here who do give a shit and do want to make a difference. Granted it is often an uphill battle, but if you're doing it for the right reasons, you'll make a difference. And maybe you'll be lucky enough to get in a unit with a couple like-minded NCOs/SNCOs and you can actually get a toe-hold and get your unit squared away.

[Venus]

Maybe this what I see is wrong with USAF,
exercise scernario, Flightline with a acft that needs to be moved, the inspector tasks the NCO to perform task, at beginning of task the NCO is declared a casulty and the next guy to pick up the task is a SRA, he performs task to perfection and inspector praises him,mission accomplished. 2 days later same said SRA is getting a LOR for doing a task he was not qualified or had the rank and skill level NCO's only.
War time situation, same SRA in real world task as above deployed in a hell whole. Says screw it if no NCO is not around to perform task and has a pepsi and smoke ,mission fail Army troops die because of efed up leadership at home base. Asked why he says refused to put butt on line because of lack leadership to back him up. Mission fail. Reason USAF senior leadership fails to relize what deployed airmen around the world already know "we are at war". Still too many Airmen who don't deploy, don't see the big picture, work 9 to 5, weekends off and are in positions of senior leadership. Mission fail. Lack of situational awareness or unable of pulling brain holder out of rectal orfice. Improvise, adapt overcome is not in the USAF lexicon.

[Combat correspondent]

I've actually been leaning closer and closer to the Corps because of their leadership style. I love the old-school military they still manage to hold on to amidst all this happy horse sh!t in the other services. The only problem I'd have with going Corps vs. Army is the demotion to what I was told is E-2 (E-3 if I have enough college, which I may by that time). By the time the Air Force approves my conditional release from service, I'll be E-5, so it's a big pill to swallow to go back to the bottom of the pecking order. I'm starting to think it's more and more worth it however. I'm still a bit blinded by the tan beret in the 75th Ranger Regiment though. I guess I've got the next couple years to figure it out since the AF is not letting me go any time soon. It would be nice if the new CSAF and SECAF make the changes I want to see, but I really doubt it. They're still concerned with losing numbers because of people not wanting to "be like the Army" and "stay true to our heritage" even though they're one in the same.

I agree that a demotion is a big pill to swallow - I had to swallow it when I came into the AF. The greatest of the great followed their dream and had a calling to their service - consider CMSgt Hackney or 'Chesty' Puller. Since you are considering the Corps, allow me to shed some light on Gen. Puller...

Prior to his involvement in World War I, General Puller, then an Army sergeant, was accepted into the Virginia Military Institute, Lexington, to pursue a commissioned career in the Army. As America’s involvement in World War I intensified, the sergeant, who was nicknamed ‘Chesty’ for his barrel chest, resigned from the college and enlisted as a private in the Marine Corps.

His reasons were summed up in his quote, “I want to go where the guns are.”

Puller is the most decorated Marine in U.S. history, is one of only two people to receive a Navy Cross, five times. Puller earned 52 separate, subsequent and foreign awards in his 37-year career with the Corps.

True, he was a Sgt. --- an E-5 like you will be. True, he was in college on a commissioning program. He gave that up for what? For the glamorous rank of E-1. Still, it is not always about the rank on your sleeve.

I am not saying you are a Chesty Puller. There are not many of those in the world. What I am saying is follow your dreams regardless of rank. Like I said, I got demoted when I came into the AF but rebounded and was on the fast track and am now an 11-year TSgt...not bad. You will also be on the fast track after you lateral over.

If you want to read up on heroes - I recommend reading about CMSgt Hackney and Chesty Puller. Also, if you are serious about the Army, read about Audie Murphy - he is also a beacon of success.

Immediately following the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, Audie Murphy, a 17 year-old son of poor, rural sharecroppers, tried to enlist in the military, but the services rejected him because he had not yet reached the required age of 18. Shortly after his eighteenth birthday, Major Murphy tried to enlist in the Marine Corps but was turned down for being too short. Finally, the five-foot-five-inch man was accepted into the Army and was sent to Camp Wolters, Texas, for basic training.

During a close-order drill session, he passed out. Fearing his apparent weaknesses, his company commander tried to have him transferred to a cook and bakers' school, but the private insisted on becoming a combat soldier. He went on to earn 33 U.S. medals, five French medals and one from Belgium.

And, it isn't about medals - all three of these men followed their dreams.

[AF Chief]

I may not be an NCO, but AFI 36-2618 provides me the authority to issue lawful orders to all Airmen placed under me. If they're late for PT, we PT together. Late from lunch, we have lunch together. They have any other problem, I get very closely involved in the manner and attempt to fix it. I don't need LOCs and LORs for people being late to formation. I don't need to discharge the smelly kid.


No disrespect...but, this is PART of why NCOs are considered soft. In today's AF, we don't have time to babysit. You say you have 10 Airmen under you. I have had as many as 250 Airmen under me. I believe in helping Airmen if they have issues and I have always said to get involved in their lives. But, if I have to go personally wake a Airman up because he can't come to work on time (after warnings), I am waking him by rolling his bed over with him in it--1 TIME! After that, I do paperwork. Same thing for lunch. I do lunch with my people once in a while, but I will NOT baby-sit them to come back on time. If they are late for formation, then they get warned...the first time.

You have to remember...if I am dedicating 90% of my time on 1 Airmen because he refuses to comply, WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER 249 AIRMEN THAT NEED MY ATTENTION AS WELL? Airmen are ADULTS. They are not my teenage children.

Trust me...I used to be like you and refused to give out paperwork. I always said I could "change" a person's unacceptable behavior. IT DOES NOT WORK ALL THE TIME. Sometimes, people just don't give a chit. They don't want to be changed. As you progress through your career, you will find out. Don't get me wrong...I try my best to save that 1 Airmen that might have a rocky start, but after I provide him/her with numerous tools to get better and he still fails, administrative separation is what is next. Don't consider it a failure on your part. I used to take it personally. But, I don't anymore. If I have gave 100% effort to help some one that refuses to be helped and fails constantly, then I move on and separate them. I have my other 249 Airmen to help out as well.

You mention going Blue to Green. And let me start by saying that I Admire and RESPECT our Army brethren. I have worked with them many times in the AOR over 24 years. But, you will not believe how many calls I get from Army personnel wanting to go Blue. The reason I get the calls is because I am Public Affairs right now and they figured I have all the answers. Trust me...the grass is not greener on the other side. Army mentality is a little different than Air Force. Now this is from personal experience...you won't be allowed to have a personal opinion until you are a E5/E6...even then their SNCOs can literally put down a beating on the younger NCOs and Soldiers. And they don't care if you are in the middle of the BX with 100s of people around...trust me it happens. I wear a Marine cut and I had a Army SNCO try to light me up in the middle of the BX--but, that is another story, and a funny one at that for a later date.

I commend you for all the changes you are talking about. But, its not all Leadership's fault. I wish I had you here so I could show you. I am in the largest and one of the most busiest Wings in the entire Air Force. We do not have time for Airman, NCOs, and SNCOs to not perform up to standards.

P.S. Please teach me how to multi-quote! :)

[AF Chief]

When I was a young troop I was ordered to the Aircraft washrack detail for a month after a couple of "incidents." One week into it I wished I was dead. Scrubbing the rear F-111 wheel well with PD-680 tearing up my skin despite despite wearing a rubber suit and water from every direction being sprayed at me from the people on the top and sides of the aircraft in 40 degree English winter weather made it the most miserable experience in all my time in the Air Force. We did two, sometimes three, aircraft per night and it took roughly 4 hours per Jet. All the other guys washing were assigned only for that particular jet's wash. I was assigned to every damn jet that came to the washrack. There were no breaks and i was always soaked , freezing, and developed skin lesions from the chemicals. The washrack supervisor tried to make me go to the hospital once he saw my arms after taking off my suit when we were finished for the night. I wouldn't go. I just didn't want my shop chief to think I was a whiner after he cut the deal with my Shirt to send me to washrack rather than CC. I was a very compliant airman after that experience,


I did this as a SNCO for a fund raiser. Enough of the younger Airmen paid for votes and I had some of the most votes. This was one of the most disgusting and hard jobs I have ever done. I did it for day. Trust me, this would be good punishment for anyone.

[Combat correspondent]

Maybe this what I see is wrong with USAF,
exercise scernario, Flightline with a acft that needs to be moved, the inspector tasks the NCO to perform task, at beginning of task the NCO is declared a casulty and the next guy to pick up the task is a SRA, he performs task to perfection and inspector praises him,mission accomplished. 2 days later same said SRA is getting a LOR for doing a task he was not qualified or had the rank and skill level NCO's only.
War time situation, same SRA in real world task as above deployed in a hell whole. Says screw it if no NCO is not around to perform task and has a pepsi and smoke ,mission fail Army troops die because of efed up leadership at home base. Asked why he says refused to put butt on line because of lack leadership to back him up. Mission fail. Reason USAF senior leadership fails to relize what deployed airmen around the world already know "we are at war". Still too many Airmen who don't deploy, don't see the big picture, work 9 to 5, weekends off and are in positions of senior leadership. Mission fail. Lack of situational awareness or unable of pulling brain holder out of rectal orfice. Improvise, adapt overcome is not in the USAF lexicon.

You are correct Venus, "Improvise, adapt overcome is not in our lexicon," but it d@mn well should be. I have to ask you....is it in your lexicon? What is your rank and how many do you supervise? You can definitely put it in your subordinates' lexicon. And, consider one more thing.....though many will argue with me and bash me as they've done before....but, you can also put it in the lexicon of those above you in rank.

NEVER let a SNCO or Officer micromanage you. I said this before and everyone yelled at me, but it is true. You HOLD the power to tactfully get them the f*ck out of your cookies. Try this......next time they are in your cookies tell them:

"Sir, (or ma'am) this is enlisted business and I can handle it, you are in my lane." Make sure you look them dead in the eye, don't smirk, nothing....let them know they are in your lane and don't back down. Next time, they will ease of a bit on the micromanaging and you will get more control over YOUR Airmen. Mentor these Airmen correctly and some day they will supervise THEIR own Airmen. Do you see my plan?

We can fix this machine but it is up to US.....and by "us," I refer to those in paygrades E-4 to E-6 or E-7. The E-8s and E-9s run the show and many run it well. The officers....well, they are officers but you can also set them straight ---- believe me and don't listen to the naysayers who will chime in next ---- you can shape the CGOs around you, as well. Believe me, I've done it.

[AF Chief]

I have been the AF for 11 years now and this is the first time that I have felt like EVERY NCO in my chain has failed me. I have been here for a year and in the first 2 months of me being here, my son got diagnosed and is not considered a special needs child. The first thing I did was go to my supervisor (who is a MSgt), I was a SSgt at the time. What he told me, literally left me speechless. "You know I really don't care, it's not really my job to know your personal life. I am really just middle managment, you need to find one of the TSgt's and let them know." That is what my immediate supervisor told me. I had to update my family care plan, we couldn't find an availbe provider to take care of my special needs child, we brought it up to both of our chains and MY First Sergeant says "Well, if you knew your kid was going to be an issue, you shouldn't have come here". Well it's 10 months and alot of doctors appoinments later, I am now coded EFMP and we are being reassigned back to the states because where we are at cannot provide the care required for my child. My leadership was so shocked to learn that we were leaving. The apparently didn't have a clue?? After a year of telling them and emails, it's a HUGE surprise. I got alot of condcending speeches on communication and how its a shame that as an NCO i should be able to communicate better with those in my chain....

What I have gone though in this year at this base at this squadron has left me quite bitter, because what happened to people helping people? How can we as NCO's expect our Airmen to care when some of us obviously don't? I still did my job, I still took care of my Airmen and civilians that work for me. How can we fix a problem when our NCO corps is so badly in need of repair?

I am sorry to hear this. As I have said many times, there are many "good" and "bad" SNCOs, NCOs, and Airmen. If these SNCOs worked for me they would of been fired from their leadership position or re-BLUED by me. Just like coming to the base I am at...retention rates are low with the Airmen. Its because this is one of the busiest Wings in the AF. I tell them to hang on and that all bases are not like this. Don't let a few bad "apples" ruin it for you.

ON something similar, I just helped a guy her his wife over here (overseas) from a stateside assignment where they denied his wife coming here. WIth a little help from me, she got here and got command-sponsored.

But, stick it out...hopefully your next supervisors/leaders will be better.

[Combat correspondent]

No disrespect...but, this is PART of why NCOs are considered soft. In today's AF, we don't have time to babysit. You say you have 10 Airmen under you. I have had as many as 250 Airmen under me. I believe in helping Airmen if they have issues and I have always said to get involved in their lives. But, if I have to go personally wake a Airman up because he can't come to work on time (after warnings), I am waking him by rolling his bed over with him in it--1 TIME! After that, I do paperwork. Same thing for lunch. I do lunch with my people once in a while, but I will NOT baby-sit them to come back on time. If they are late for formation, then they get warned...the first time.

You have to remember...if I am dedicating 90% of my time on 1 Airmen because he refuses to comply, WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER 249 AIRMEN THAT NEED MY ATTENTION AS WELL? Airmen are ADULTS. They are not my teenage children.

Trust me...I used to be like you and refused to give out paperwork. I always said I could "change" a person's unacceptable behavior. IT DOES NOT WORK ALL THE TIME. Sometimes, people just don't give a chit. They don't want to be changed. As you progress through your career, you will find out. Don't get me wrong...I try my best to save that 1 Airmen that might have a rocky start, but after I provide him/her with numerous tools to get better and he still fails, administrative separation is what is next. Don't consider it a failure on your part. I used to take it personally. But, I don't anymore. If I have gave 100% effort to help some one that refuses to be helped and fails constantly, then I move on and separate them. I have my other 249 Airmen to help out as well.

You mention going Blue to Green. And let me start by saying that I Admire and RESPECT our Army brethren. I have worked with them many times in the AOR over 24 years. But, you will not believe how many calls I get from Army personnel wanting to go Blue. The reason I get the calls is because I am Public Affairs right now and they figured I have all the answers. Trust me...the grass is not greener on the other side. Army mentality is a little different than Air Force. Now this is from personal experience...you won't be allowed to have a personal opinion until you are a E5/E6...even then their SNCOs can literally put down a beating on the younger NCOs and Soldiers. And they don't care if you are in the middle of the BX with 100s of people around...trust me it happens. I wear a Marine cut and I had a Army SNCO try to light me up in the middle of the BX--but, that is another story, and a funny one at that for a later date.

I commend you for all the changes you are talking about. But, its not all Leadership's fault. I wish I had you here so I could show you. I am in the largest and one of the most busiest Wings in the entire Air Force. We do not have time for Airman, NCOs, and SNCOs to not perform up to standards.

P.S. Please teach me how to multi-quote! :)

Me too, Chief....I need to learn to multi quote! Chief, I don't mean any disrespect either. You said you have 250 Airmen under you? Where the h&ll are all your NCOs and why are you needing to spend time one-on-one with your Airmen.

I really like to see a Chief come around and talk to the troops, it shows and means alot as every "A"irman (E-1 to O-10) worships the rank of CMSgt. Still, here is my take on this scenario in "MY" world.

If I ever saw a CMSgt having to go to an Airman's room and wake him up, I would take off my blouse and stomp the freakin' thing into the ground because I would be so embarrased of myself and my NCO corp. I would take that very personal as if I failed! There is NO REASON a CMSgt should ever have to do that unless all the NCOs around him are not worth a cr@p. Seriously, Chief, if I ever saw you have to take your time to do that, I would truly be embarrased of myself, my stripes, my AF tape, my name tape and the whole enchilada.

[AF Chief]

Actually at the time, I was stationed at Hickam AFB working in the Comm Sq. I am the Chief that walks around and talks to all my Airmen. Its hard to get to know each and everyone of them when you had the numbers like I did. Here, i can do it as I am in a small flight. I expect my NCOs and SNCOs to get involved with the Airmen, but that never takes the responsibility off my shoulders.

There is a saying...When you make Chief...You Work For Every Airmen Under You. You are not worried about awards, decorations, EPRs or trying to get promoted again. You are worried about getting your Airmen awards, decorations, good EPRs and trying to get THEM promoted. They are my replacements when I punch.

And being here, I have went to a Airman's Room looking for him as he WAS missing in action. But, I was more afraid of him doing something bad to himself. Long story...another day.

Its just the way I am.

[Venus]

You are correct Venus, "Improvise, adapt overcome is not in our lexicon," but it d@mn well should be. I have to ask you....is it in your lexicon? What is your rank and how many do you supervise? You can definitely put it in your subordinates' lexicon. And, consider one more thing.....though many will argue with me and bash me as they've done before....but, you can also put it in the lexicon of those above you in rank.

NEVER let a SNCO or Officer micromanage you. I said this before and everyone yelled at me, but it is true. You HOLD the power to tactfully get them the f*ck out of your cookies. Try this......next time they are in your cookies tell them:

"Sir, (or ma'am) this is enlisted business and I can handle it, you are in my lane." Make sure you look them dead in the eye, don't smirk, nothing....let them know they are in your lane and don't back down. Next time, they will ease of a bit on the micromanaging and you will get more control over YOUR Airmen. Mentor these Airmen correctly and some day they will supervise THEIR own Airmen. Do you see my plan?

We can fix this machine but it is up to US.....and by "us," I refer to those in paygrades E-4 to E-6 or E-7. The E-8s and E-9s run the show and many run it well. The officers....well, they are officers but you can also set them straight ---- believe me and don't listen to the naysayers who will chime in next ---- you can shape the CGOs around you, as well. Believe me, I've done it.


I am a retired Msgt after 23 years service, I was a Crew Chief,Expeditor,Production Supervisor and Flight Chief of over 100 Crew Chiefs spread over 4 different AORs. I never believed in giving out paperwork unless I wanted to show a useless POS the front gate, I used to discipline or correct poor performance with a 30 day tdy to the wash rack detail, for those who never washed a acft this is a fate worse than death, giving the job of making sure all acft lavs were dumped and serviced complety with a fresh flowery smell, also everybodies favorite go and clean the thrust reversers and cowling. Also I occasionally got into a Amns face to tell him how piss poor his performance was plus volunteering them for additional shit detail. I also was a big fan of making sure acft landing gears were spotless and always had a happy Amn to do it.
I know there are those who think my style is unprofessional and archaic, but it worked, I don't treat Amn as children but as adults doing an adults job. The penalty for poor perforance was remedial training in the cleaniness of USAF acft proper hygiene of acft lavatories. I read that NCO's don't dicsipline in this thread,maybe , but we are responsible for our junior amn's training.

[Venus]

You are correct Venus, "Improvise, adapt overcome is not in our lexicon," but it d@mn well should be. I have to ask you....is it in your lexicon? What is your rank and how many do you supervise? You can definitely put it in your subordinates' lexicon. And, consider one more thing.....though many will argue with me and bash me as they've done before....but, you can also put it in the lexicon of those above you in rank.

NEVER let a SNCO or Officer micromanage you. I said this before and everyone yelled at me, but it is true. You HOLD the power to tactfully get them the f*ck out of your cookies. Try this......next time they are in your cookies tell them:

"Sir, (or ma'am) this is enlisted business and I can handle it, you are in my lane." Make sure you look them dead in the eye, don't smirk, nothing....let them know they are in your lane and don't back down. Next time, they will ease of a bit on the micromanaging and you will get more control over YOUR Airmen. Mentor these Airmen correctly and some day they will supervise THEIR own Airmen. Do you see my plan?

We can fix this machine but it is up to US.....and by "us," I refer to those in paygrades E-4 to E-6 or E-7. The E-8s and E-9s run the show and many run it well. The officers....well, they are officers but you can also set them straight ---- believe me and don't listen to the naysayers who will chime in next ---- you can shape the CGOs around you, as well. Believe me, I've done it.


I am a retired Msgt after 23 years service, I was a Crew Chief,Expeditor,Production Supervisor and Flight Chief of over 100 Crew Chiefs spread over 4 different AORs. I never believed in giving out paperwork unless I wanted to show a useless POS the front gate, I used to discipline or correct poor performance with a 30 day tdy to the wash rack detail, for those who never washed a acft this is a fate worse than death, giving the job of making sure all acft lavs were dumped and serviced complety with a fresh flowery smell, also everybodies favorite go and clean the thrust reversers and cowling. Also I occasionally got into a Amns face to tell him how piss poor his performance was plus volunteering them for additional shit detail. I also was a big fan of making sure acft landing gears were spotless and always had a happy Amn to do it.
I know there are those who think my style is unprofessional and archaic, but it worked, I don't treat Amn as children but as adults doing an adults job. The penalty for poor perforance was remedial training in the cleaniness of USAF acft proper hygiene of acft lavatories. I read that NCO's don't dicsipline in this thread,maybe , but we are responsible for our junior amn's training. I also believe in war time situation what ever it takes to get the job done and mission accomplishment, there was a time on the flightline when shit had to get done for higher HQ stuff that safety and QA were told to stay in their office and color. I haven't seen that dedication to the mission since Desert Storm and before that basturd Gen McPeak was CSAF.

[taeisme]

What a horrible experience! I hope I do not sound to harsh here but I really wish the paper-@ss NCOs that keep posting here and the ones that were "too busy" to help you there would just get the h^ll out of our Air Force!

You know, Taeisme, when I posted this thread "NCOs need to step up - emergency on horizon" I had hoped to stir the minds of the paper NCOs and hopefully show them a better way - an effective way to lead to save our Air Force. With each story like yours that is shared, the light of a future Air Force gets dimmer and dimmer.

Here's what you need to do....DO NOT separate!!! Instead you NEED to reenlist and make the changes and impacts around you that you can. Make your supervision change by never accepting the status quo. These people all feel they are too busy to lead first-hand. Well, if thats the case, they are in deriliction of their duties as NCOs and should face a courts marital on their way out the door. I guess that was more or less a rant but still, we've got a whole bunch (I'd speculate the majority) of people who post on here actually believe they should NOT get involved in their Airmens' lives and just administer paperwork when their troops f*ck up because they are not their to be his/her father or mother ---- or actually be a "real" NCO. What a crying shame!


Thank you! Trust me, I am not going anywhere. I knew I was going to join the AF back in 1995 (when i was a senior in H.S.). I have chocked this up as a lesson, a very valuable one. One that I will never forget.

I think that some people get wrapped up in the fact that they have a little rank on their arms and forget who they are, they become either so self absorbed in getting promoted, recognition and medals that they forgot about the people. Or they end up being overly concerned about being friends with everyone. Being the popular guy. Mentorship has a thrown by the wayside. We need to 'take back' our Air Force and not be ashamed to tell someone that they are out of regs, or they way they are behaving isn't professional. Not just talk the talk but really walk the walk.

[johca]

I guess that was more or less a rant but still, we've got a whole bunch (I'd speculate the majority) of people who post on here actually believe they should NOT get involved in their Airmens' lives and just administer paperwork when their troops f*ck up because they are not their to be his/her father or mother ---- or actually be a "real" NCO. What a crying shame!My comments were not advocating NO involvement to compassionately and sympathetically help improve or correct somebody’s substandard performance or behavior, my comments were directed at too much compassionate and sympathetic involvement isn’t the answer either, it becomes patronizing. There is also a point of identifying substandard performance being suffering caused by inept NCOs, excuse me if I don’t buy into all substandard performance and undesirable behavior results from being a victim of NCOs self absorbed in getting promoted, recognition and medals that they forgot about taking care of the airmen in the unit.

There isn’t a 12 month calendar period during my 23 year active duty career that I was not either deployed or TDY more than 180 days a year. During the 1980s PJ Teams started including support personnel and I supervised other than PJ AFSCs that included member of both male and female gender. Directing peformance of push-ups as spot correction technique is not acceptable to impose on support personnel. However, the critical point of my comments is corrective actions are not indefinite open ended actions and neither is even attempting to correct or improve appropriate in all situations.


“I now personally go to his dorm and wake him every morning. We go to chow and head to work together. It won't last forever, but it will last until I feel he's either made progress or we've hit a wall and maybe administrative action is the only remaining option. This is not a doable option in a unit having a high perstempo.


We also have a SWAT (seeds weeds and trash team)/ROD squad (relieved of duty) when necessary.Some units have seeds and trash, relieved of duty squad and wash rack options and other AFSCs and units do not. Make an effort to browse AFI 16-1202v2,

You will see what results from failure:

Individuals who fail the closed book test are considered Non mission ready. Failures will be re-evaluated using an alternate test within 7 duty days [within two Unit Training Assemblies (UTAs) for ARC/ANG]. Those who fail the reevaluation will be recommended for review board action.

Substandard Performance. Personnel who fail the physical fitness evaluation will not perform operational tasks until a re-certification evaluation is successfully completed. They will re-accomplish the entire evaluation within 30 duty days of the failure (within two UTAs for traditional AFRC/ANG). Those who fail the re-test will be recommended for review board action.

Substandard Performance. The evaluator will critique errors, incorrect procedures, and minor safety violations during the debriefing. A major safety violation is grounds for failure and will be corrected on the spot. Annotate areas requiring improvement and corrective action. Individuals, who fail the team employment evaluation, will be placed in a non-mission ready status. Those who fail will only participate in training missions under the direct supervision of a PJ instructor or evaluator until they have successfully completed a re-evaluation. A successful evaluation must be completed by the end of the last day of the third month following the date of the first failure. Those who fail the re-evaluation will be recommended for review board actions.

Review Board Actions. The board will evaluate and analyze all factors bearing on a situation and provide the commander with recommendations. Recommendations may include removal of an advanced skill qualification, additional supervised training, or recommendation for removal from the AFSC. Board findings of personnel retained in the AFSC will be maintained on file for 18 months. When removal from AFSC is recommended the unit training manager will coordinate required actions with the base training office. CFETP 1T2XX and CFETP 13DXA. Identify all the require core tasks which are considerable. The other difference is the worst that can happen from a finance members screw up is money going missing or somebody not getting a paycheck. A life support person not properly inspecting survival kits might result in a broken survival radio put into a survival vest, Avionics might mess up on the GPS or sitcom repair, these screw ups have direct potential to put me more at risk when I’m doing my job than I should be. You people see a screw up needing sympathy and pity, I see a screw up who’s ineptness may and can cost somebody their lives. The reality of my actual action is I gather the facts rather than rely on impressions and make an assessment of how to procede in both the person's and the unit's best interests. In most cases there has been sufficient cause for a caring response rather than a waste no effort or time in getting rid of them action.

[johca]

If you want to read up on heroes - I recommend reading about CMSgt Hackney …I met him once or twice, I have a 16mm film of him coming back from a mission on his second combat tour where he and another PJ were wounded in action. His wound was the result of a round striking his flight helmet center front above his eyes and exiting left side rear of the helmet. The round traveled between his skull and the inside of the helmet before it went out the back side of the helmet. It was not noticed until the other PJ was taken away in an ambulance and when it was there was concern removing his helmet would take the top of his head with it.

[MACHINE666]

So AFChief what about that story about the Army SNCO who tried making a scene?

For some reason, the times I've always been on an Army or Marine Corps installation, nobody ever bothers me...then again I'm usually in Air Force gear or my civvies!

:D

[weazlefuzion]

No disrespect...but, this is PART of why NCOs are considered soft. In today's AF, we don't have time to babysit. You say you have 10 Airmen under you. I have had as many as 250 Airmen under me. I believe in helping Airmen if they have issues and I have always said to get involved in their lives. But, if I have to go personally wake a Airman up because he can't come to work on time (after warnings), I am waking him by rolling his bed over with him in it--1 TIME! After that, I do paperwork. Same thing for lunch. I do lunch with my people once in a while, but I will NOT baby-sit them to come back on time. If they are late for formation, then they get warned...the first time.

You have to remember...if I am dedicating 90% of my time on 1 Airmen because he refuses to comply, WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER 249 AIRMEN THAT NEED MY ATTENTION AS WELL? Airmen are ADULTS. They are not my teenage children.

Trust me...I used to be like you and refused to give out paperwork. I always said I could "change" a person's unacceptable behavior. IT DOES NOT WORK ALL THE TIME. Sometimes, people just don't give a chit. They don't want to be changed. As you progress through your career, you will find out. Don't get me wrong...I try my best to save that 1 Airmen that might have a rocky start, but after I provide him/her with numerous tools to get better and he still fails, administrative separation is what is next. Don't consider it a failure on your part. I used to take it personally. But, I don't anymore. If I have gave 100% effort to help some one that refuses to be helped and fails constantly, then I move on and separate them. I have my other 249 Airmen to help out as well.

You mention going Blue to Green. And let me start by saying that I Admire and RESPECT our Army brethren. I have worked with them many times in the AOR over 24 years. But, you will not believe how many calls I get from Army personnel wanting to go Blue. The reason I get the calls is because I am Public Affairs right now and they figured I have all the answers. Trust me...the grass is not greener on the other side. Army mentality is a little different than Air Force. Now this is from personal experience...you won't be allowed to have a personal opinion until you are a E5/E6...even then their SNCOs can literally put down a beating on the younger NCOs and Soldiers. And they don't care if you are in the middle of the BX with 100s of people around...trust me it happens. I wear a Marine cut and I had a Army SNCO try to light me up in the middle of the BX--but, that is another story, and a funny one at that for a later date.

I commend you for all the changes you are talking about. But, its not all Leadership's fault. I wish I had you here so I could show you. I am in the largest and one of the most busiest Wings in the entire Air Force. We do not have time for Airman, NCOs, and SNCOs to not perform up to standards.

P.S. Please teach me how to multi-quote! :)

With all due respect Chief, I don't understand how the NCOs beneath you weren't the ones taking care of the Airmen. I agree that a Chief needs to show presence and leadership everywhere and that he works for every Airman beneath him, but I also think that the NCOs below you should be keeping those type of disciplinary issues well out of the eyes of the SNCOs and officers until it becomes a major issue that they really can't handle. The problem is, most NCOs seem to not be able to handle much and give up, not because they want a promotion or are only out for their career, but because they just don't care. They don't care if they get promoted, or if anyone below them gets promoted/demoted. They're just coasting.



As for multi-quoting, it depends on what you mean. If you want to break down one person's quote, hit the quote button. When the new page loads, look at the very beginning and end of the text. You'll see some brackets enclosing some text with the words "QUOTE" and 'username;post number'.

At the end you'll see brackets enclosing the word "QUOTE" in caps again with a / before the word quote. Just copy and paste that first bracket set, with all its contents, before every paragraph you want to quote separately and paste that last bracket thing with the / after every paragraph you want quoted separately.

If you mean you want to quote multiple people in one post, you have to right click on the "Quote" button and open it in a new window or tab. Do that for each post you want to quote, then just copy and paste all of them into any one of the reply boxes and type out your responses accordingly.

[Venus]

With all due respect Chief, I don't understand how the NCOs beneath you weren't the ones taking care of the Airmen. I agree that a Chief needs to show presence and leadership everywhere and that he works for every Airman beneath him, but I also think that the NCOs below you should be keeping those type of disciplinary issues well out of the eyes of the SNCOs and officers until it becomes a major issue that they really can't handle. The problem is, most NCOs seem to not be able to handle much and give up, not because they want a promotion or are only out for their career, but because they just don't care. They don't care if they get promoted, or if anyone below them gets promoted/demoted. They're just coasting.



As for multi-quoting, it depends on what you mean. If you want to break down one person's quote, hit the quote button. When the new page loads, look at the very beginning and end of the text. You'll see some brackets enclosing some text with the words "QUOTE" and 'username;post number'.

At the end you'll see brackets enclosing the word "QUOTE" in caps again with a / before the word quote. Just copy and paste that first bracket set, with all its contents, before every paragraph you want to quote separately and paste that last bracket thing with the / after every paragraph you want quoted separately.

If you mean you want to quote multiple people in one post, you have to right click on the "Quote" button and open it in a new window or tab. Do that for each post you want to quote, then just copy and paste all of them into any one of the reply boxes and type out your responses accordingly.


All SSgts thru MSgt's what would happen if they had off duty BS epr bullet function and nobody came. What if you guys just focused on your jobs and passed ORI's with flying colors, your Airmen were fully trained to do their job and you guys worked hard and played hard in spite of what a damn E-8 or E-9 thought less of you because you were not whole persons but extremely competent and professional Airmen in the profession of arms. What if they were awarding 30 stripes to Senior but only one MSgt was a whole person and the rest were military professionals, would the whole person be the only one getting the stripe?

[johca]

What if they were awarding 30 stripes to Senior but only one MSgt was a whole person and the rest were military professionals, would the whole person be the only one getting the stripe?LOL whole person vs. military professionals. What exactly is a military professional within the Air Force in 1947, 1957, 1967, 1977, 1987, 1997, 2007, and today? Only a few Air Force career fields are in the profession of being armed uniformed combatants conducting operations and missions on the ground battlefield. The air battlefield is transforming from manned to unmanned weapon systems. Where exactly does the lowest command authority typically reside within Air Force combat chain of command? In most instances it does not include NCOs and in very few instances it doesn’t even go far down within the Air Forces line units’ commissioned members.

How, why, where, and when does managing and supervising repair of aircraft on the military flight line differ than doing same at any commercial aircraft operation such as FEDEX or at an airfield such as JFK, LAX, ect? Give example of an NCO giving lawful order that is nothing more than ensuring compliance of policy, technical orders, OSHA standards? Give example of authority to correct substandard performance and behavior that differ what the typical AF NCO does that is not done by a civilian manager or supervisor?

Everybody wants respect from their NCOs, but seems they have no difficulty identifying they have no reason to respect NCOs. Some actually were or are NCOs but in truth never truly had to utilize line NCO authority in situations and circumstances coddling was not an option and most definitely were never in a position of planning, organizing and leading where significant risk existed one or more members of the team, including the team leader would become casualties or KIA. It is in these situations and circumstances the authority, responsibilities and accountability of the Line NCO to give lawful orders truly and fully exists.

From my perspective most Air Force NCOs are such only because the pay grade of skilled and qualified specialist/technician is connected to an NCO rank and not to any military armed combatant NCO leader duties.

[johca]

I may not be an NCO, but AFI 36-2618 provides me the authority to issue lawful orders to all Airmen placed under me. If they're late for PT, we PT together. Late from lunch, we have lunch together. They have any other problem, I get very closely involved in the manner and attempt to fix it. I don't need LOCs and LORs for people being late to formation. I don't need to discharge the smelly kid. Your reading comprehension is commendable, but the SrA lacks NCO status and authority. Yes you got compliance, but what was the quality of the commitment in the long term.?




“I now personally go to his dorm and wake him every morning. We go to chow and head to work together. It won't last forever, but it will last until I feel he's either made progress or we've hit a wall and maybe administrative action is the only remaining option.This coddling demonstrates the quality of compliance is very low. Once at work how much supervision is needed to obtain reasonable productivity and contribution? He has a tardiness problem, is there also a habit of avoiding work, duty, or service once at his place of work? Does he shirk the distasteful or more demanding work off onto coworkers?

Apparently your unit’s operations and mediocre standards allows much flexibility to coddle, if this can be done in your unit so be it, other units operations don’t necessarily give such flexibility to arrange workload to coddle.

Unfortunately you are incorrect concerning AFI 36-2618 giving SrA authority to issue lawful orders. Besides NCO, warrant or commissioned rank and status the issuing the order must have authority, either by law, regulation, or custom of the service, to issue the order. The order must relate to military duty, which includes all activities reasonably necessary to accomplish a military mission, or safeguard of promote the morale, discipline, and usefulness of member of a command and directly connected with the maintenance of good order and discipline.

That NCO rank gives authority to issue lawful orders and such authority differs from other enlisted ranks is disclosed in Article 91, Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ).

Article 91 specifically states it has the same general objects with respect to warrant, noncommissioned, and petty officers as Articles 89 and 90 have with respect to commissioned officers, namely, to ensure obedience to their lawful orders, and to protect them from violence, insult, or disrespect. Unlike Articles 89 and 90, however, this article does not require a superior-subordinate relationship as an element of any of the offenses denounced. This article does not protect an acting noncommissioned officer or acting petty officer, nor does it protect military police or members of the shore patrol who are not warrant, noncommissioned, or petty officers.

The compliance authority to obey instructions and directions given by a SrA related to accomplishing work duties comes from Article 92, Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). The compliance offense resulting from Article 92—Failure to obey order or
Regulation for failure to follow instructions given by a SrA is not failure to obey the SrA’s order but rather the accused is willfully through neglect and culpable inefficiency derelict in the performance of duties as put in place by general orders, regulations, technical orders, policies put in place by commanders in the chain of command and superior-subordinate relationship established by being the immediate supervisor (specifically designated as performance rater).

All AFI 36-2618 states is SRA: (1) may be utilized as supervisors; and (2) can be utilized as reporting officials upon completion of Airman Leadership School (ALS). The actual eligibility qualifications to evaluate are found in AFI 36-2406. To supervise with the level of authority you infer in you opinion the SrA must be: (1) appointed as the rater; and, (2) the SrA may serve as rater only if they have completed the NCO Preparatory Course or the Airman Leadership Course.

These Air Force policies gives approval for SrA to supervise enlisted accomplishing technical, administrative and housekeeping activities but gives no NCO chain-of-command leader authority status pertinent to the conducting military operations. Unlike NCO authority, the SrA supervisory authority is dependant on and limited to an on-duty superior-subordinate relationship.

Also unlike the NCO, the SrA authority to administratively counsel or reprimand is limited other enlisted members requires a direct rater supervisor relationship. Unfortunately Article 80 Attempts has much language concerning the treating with contempt or being disrespectful in language or deportment toward warrant, noncommissioned or petty officer in execution of office, but no language concerning SrA. The important distinction is the NCO has duties and responsibilities of office which bring with it the authority to issue orders requiring immediate compliance having no imposed superior-subordinate relationship requirement (article 91).

The no superior-subordinate relationship requirement is very vague, it does not mean an NCO can go into another unit or team and start issuing orders. Its strongest application is most applicable to performing Line NCO duties which includes being able to move in and out of the commissioned officer’s area of responsibility at the tactical level. Within the U.S. Army and the Marine Corps the NCO position directly connected to being Line NCOs are the infantry platoon sergeant and the squad/section leader positions.

info: The E-4 Corporal rank and grade is a NCO rank. E-4 SrA is not not an NCO rank and and neither is the Specialist E-4 rank.

[weazlefuzion]

Your reading comprehension is commendable, but the SrA lacks NCO status and authority. Yes you got compliance, but what was the quality of the commitment in the long term.?

This coddling demonstrates the quality of compliance is very low. Once at work how much supervision is needed to obtain reasonable productivity and contribution? He has a tardiness problem, is there also a habit of avoiding work, duty, or service once at his place of work? Does he shirk the distasteful or more demanding work off onto coworkers?

Apparently your unit’s operations and mediocre standards allows much flexibility to coddle, if this can be done in your unit so be it, other units operations don’t necessarily give such flexibility to arrange workload to coddle.

Unfortunately you are incorrect concerning AFI 36-2618 giving SrA authority to issue lawful orders. Besides NCO, warrant or commissioned rank and status the issuing the order must have authority, either by law, regulation, or custom of the service, to issue the order. The order must relate to military duty, which includes all activities reasonably necessary to accomplish a military mission, or safeguard of promote the morale, discipline, and usefulness of member of a command and directly connected with the maintenance of good order and discipline.

That NCO rank gives authority to issue lawful orders and such authority differs from other enlisted ranks is disclosed in Article 91, Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ).

Article 91 specifically states it has the same general objects with respect to warrant, noncommissioned, and petty officers as Articles 89 and 90 have with respect to commissioned officers, namely, to ensure obedience to their lawful orders, and to protect them from violence, insult, or disrespect. Unlike Articles 89 and 90, however, this article does not require a superior-subordinate relationship as an element of any of the offenses denounced. This article does not protect an acting noncommissioned officer or acting petty officer, nor does it protect military police or members of the shore patrol who are not warrant, noncommissioned, or petty officers.

The compliance authority to obey instructions and directions given by a SrA related to accomplishing work duties comes from Article 92, Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). The compliance offense resulting from Article 92—Failure to obey order or
Regulation for failure to follow instructions given by a SrA is not failure to obey the SrA’s order but rather the accused is willfully through neglect and culpable inefficiency derelict in the performance of duties as put in place by general orders, regulations, technical orders, policies put in place by commanders in the chain of command and superior-subordinate relationship established by being the immediate supervisor (specifically designated as performance rater).

All AFI 36-2618 states is SRA: (1) may be utilized as supervisors; and (2) can be utilized as reporting officials upon completion of Airman Leadership School (ALS). The actual eligibility qualifications to evaluate are found in AFI 36-2406. To supervise with the level of authority you infer in you opinion the SrA must be: (1) appointed as the rater; and, (2) the SrA may serve as rater only if they have completed the NCO Preparatory Course or the Airman Leadership Course.

These Air Force policies gives approval for SrA to supervise enlisted accomplishing technical, administrative and housekeeping activities but gives no NCO chain-of-command leader authority status pertinent to the conducting military operations. Unlike NCO authority, the SrA supervisory authority is dependant on and limited to an on-duty superior-subordinate relationship.

Also unlike the NCO, the SrA authority to administratively counsel or reprimand is limited other enlisted members requires a direct rater supervisor relationship. Unfortunately Article 80 Attempts has much language concerning the treating with contempt or being disrespectful in language or deportment toward warrant, noncommissioned or petty officer in execution of office, but no language concerning SrA. The important distinction is the NCO has duties and responsibilities of office which bring with it the authority to issue orders requiring immediate compliance having no imposed superior-subordinate relationship requirement (article 91).

The no superior-subordinate relationship requirement is very vague, it does not mean an NCO can go into another unit or team and start issuing orders. Its strongest application is most applicable to performing Line NCO duties which includes being able to move in and out of the commissioned officer’s area of responsibility at the tactical level. Within the U.S. Army and the Marine Corps the NCO position directly connected to being Line NCOs are the infantry platoon sergeant and the squad/section leader positions.

info: The E-4 Corporal rank and grade is a NCO rank. E-4 SrA is not not an NCO rank and and neither is the Specialist E-4 rank.

First, the Airman I do this with has every bit of agreement with me on my views in this thread. He is also planning to leave the Air Force because of the issues. He does not shirk duties; in fact, he often volunteers for extra ones. He is an outstanding Airman with one simple problem of being tardy. He is learning to not do that and has thanked me quite sincerely for doing what I do.

Additionally, while I read your entire post, I got relatively lost in what seemed to be just be copy-paste from an AFI. I know what the AFIs say. 90% of that information is absolutely irrelevant to the situation at hand. I was placed in charge of him and therefore have the authority to issue lawful orders regarding the completion of an assigned task or duty, such as showing up for duty at the correct time or doing PT with the rest of the unit.

This doesn't even have anything to do with SrA; it has to do with the fact that I'm an Airman placed in charge of other Airmen, so all the stuff about being a rater, ALS, reporting official, etc doesn't apply.

The biggest difference is that my unit puts much more stress on junior rank, even if most Airmen just don't care. Respect and courtesy is demanded of all Airmen to anyone who outranks them. There's a SrA who outranks me by 3 weeks and it was made clear to me that though I'm in charge of him (only because I was there first) that I am not to disrespect him in any manner.

Regarding your info, the other service's E-4s are governed slightly differently by their own regulations. The Army's E-4 Corporal is much like a SrA who's done ALS. He has direct action authority. The USMC's Corporal is a Junior NCO and has more authority than either of the previous based on Corps tradition and behavior, but still cannot issue their own paperwork to Marines. The Navy and CG E-4 is a normal NCO as long as all the proper classes were completed and aren't any different from an E-5 in respect to the type of authority wielded. This is all just based on the joint units I've been with and the E-4s I've met from those services, so the info is from the horse's mouth.

Anyways, any bit of this is irrelevant. As far as I'm concerned, and seemingly others as well, the NCO Corps needs change. I see people agreeing with me on here and in my unit. Some disagree based upon that excuse of us not being in a combat career field. Maybe changes don't need to be as drastic as some recommend, but there does need to be change. The best ones I see are taking the star away from non-NCOs on our rank (for AF) and making E-4 an NCO or at least junior NCO in all services. The star is removed from AF rank for the reason of having technician ranks like the WWII Army up through E-7. Get the star when you're an NCO. If technical specialty is what you need, then military authority is irrelevant and it should be delegated to those who 1) can handle it, and 2) actually want it.

[Your_Name_Here]

After a successful fundraiser in order to raise the 2 cents I needed to contribute, here goes:

The main point of contention seems to be "where to draw the line" in terms of what extent an NCO should go to rehabilitate/train/correct an Amn under his/her charge. One end of the spectrum is willing to do involuntary remedial OJT on showering and hygeine. The other side is far less hands-on. I think we might at least reach a consensus that this is a case-by-case deal. Will I help someone who just can't get over the hump but is sincerely trying their best? Absolutely. Will I do it forever? Absolutely not. Is this not an organization that exclusively employs adults (17-yos. in BMT aside)? Are we asking too much that there be a certain level of maturity of folks coming in, and for the motivation to acclimate need to already be there, at least by the time he or she gets to the Operational AF? I hope not. Would I engage in hygeine OJT? No, but I would find out who raised him/her and CALL them, having a nice long conversation about their son/daughter, Amn Snuffy and their apparent lack of hygeine training. As Chief and a couple of others rightly pointed out, there is far less time and resources available to help critical cases of not-having-your-shit-together-itis like there maybe once was.

Sooner or later there might need to be a serious evaluation of a person's ability to continue serving, much sooner when a track record supporting failure to adapt to a military lifestyle exists.

In the case of the Airmen with hygeine issues, I wonder: did they have any friends or coworkers who tried to put any peer pressure on them to address that issue, before it ever came to involuntary OJT? That is something I see far less of--The Airmen tier group communicating with each other to appropriately keep each other out of trouble. That's the environment I remember, coming up.

[SinisterK9]

Weazle,

If you read through his post, sure the AFI is pretty dry stuff, but it directly applies to what your discussion is about. In short, SrA get most if not all of their power when they have completed ALS, and are actually the rater of the person in question. Even after that, their power is limited in scope as compared to a Non-Com. That's what I take away from it anyway.

[Combat correspondent]

After a successful fundraiser in order to raise the 2 cents I needed to contribute, here goes:

The main point of contention seems to be "where to draw the line" in terms of what extent an NCO should go to rehabilitate/train/correct an Amn under his/her charge. One end of the spectrum is willing to do involuntary remedial OJT on showering and hygeine. The other side is far less hands-on. I think we might at least reach a consensus that this is a case-by-case deal. Will I help someone who just can't get over the hump but is sincerely trying their best? Absolutely. Will I do it forever? Absolutely not. Is this not an organization that exclusively employs adults (17-yos. in BMT aside)? Are we asking too much that there be a certain level of maturity of folks coming in, and for the motivation to acclimate need to already be there, at least by the time he or she gets to the Operational AF? I hope not. Would I engage in hygeine OJT? No, but I would find out who raised him/her and CALL them, having a nice long conversation about their son/daughter, Amn Snuffy and their apparent lack of hygeine training. As Chief and a couple of others rightly pointed out, there is far less time and resources available to help critical cases of not-having-your-shit-together-itis like there maybe once was.

Sooner or later there might need to be a serious evaluation of a person's ability to continue serving, much sooner when a track record supporting failure to adapt to a military lifestyle exists.

In the case of the Airmen with hygeine issues, I wonder: did they have any friends or coworkers who tried to put any peer pressure on them to address that issue, before it ever came to involuntary OJT? That is something I see far less of--The Airmen tier group communicating with each other to appropriately keep each other out of trouble. That's the environment I remember, coming up.

More or less - I mean, all the Airmen picked on them. This was 2001 or 2002 in Oki. These 2 guys were the types to get off work, hit the chow hall and get to-go food, go back to their rooms and play World of Warcraft until late at night and then sleep in their cammies. They'd then get up and come to work.

I talked to them several times about their smell, looks, breath and whatnot. Other Airmen would call them stinky-@ss m*therf%ckers and names like that. I guess they were nasty for some time, I'm not sure. I know they were CROd to me and my boss told me you're taking on 2 nasties and need to whip them into shape. In our first encounter, I brought them out back to get a feel for them personally as I summed up their professionalism by the looks of their hair, cammies and boots when I first saw them. Well, when we got outside and began to talk, I smelled a funk and had a few curse words when them about their uniforms, hair and hygeine and that I expect a change when they come in tomorrow.

No change so I ripped into their sorry @sses and then sent them home to put on new uniforms, go get haircuts, take showers, etc. I tacked their lossed time onto the end of the day...not enough as they still didn't change. I did some paperwork, more paperwork, kicked more butt and finally had enough so spent a weekend on our fun, little escapade.

After a while, they got pretty squared away and one even got a girlfriend ---- miles forward from the stinky-@ss Airman I originally met --- trust me on that.

[johca]

weazlefuzion, it is very clear from your posts the Air Force’s NCO corps disgust you, in fact there is a considerable amount of how the Air Force trains and is organizes that you are disappointed with. You are very astute of my going to source policy and it was done as one of your significant complaints of why you are unhappy with the Air Force is all your trainers and NCOs told you to "This is the military, get used to it!" to justify why things get done or happen the way they do. You also seem to have a fixation on “old school” that is anchored in stories rather than being there experience.

Many of your post have a common connection of superior-subordinate conflict directed towards: (1) NCOs being inept; (2) unwillingness to accept personal accountability can and may require being documented; (3) everybody having ability to be a leader and should be a leader regardless of rank; and, (4) you knowing you having strong ability to be a leader.

At the moment it appears you are a first term SrA directing and activities of at least one subordinate with accompany claim you give lawful order to others that they must comply with. The source policy was provided to measure your pretense and exaggerations of fame, power and importance in accomplishing your unit’s day-to-day operations.


I joined the Air Force because I wanted to be part of the bleeding edge of technology while I was in the military. Instead, I've been misguided morally, taught incorrectly regarding leadership, and I simply reverted back to using the best tool I have: my brain. I know I can be one hell of a leader, on both your good side and bad, without some bullshit doctrine of "we're all equals here". We aren't equals. SNCO>NCO>Airman and no one seems to understand that.Unfortunately you believe you are sufficiently equal to play hardball with subordinates and superiors. It begs the question for what purpose.




Anyways, I play hardball with my subordinates and my superiors, all within the lines of respect and courtesy, but I'm a firm believer in the "old military" and think this new age garbage is destroying our military power worldwide. I also believe that the military needs to hand power back to its NCOs and junior officers to allow us to become a more decentralized force to deal with borderless nations and organizations like al-Qaeda.

I don't blame you for anything you've said above however, because that's how senior leadership leads and that's how they write the doctrine. They then expect NCOs to digest and repeat. The problem is, it isn't working. I can think for myself, and so can any NCO, so the power needs to be given to them to use that ability in the molding of the US Air Force.The above comments made by you certainly exposes a strong negative belief bias towards the NCO always shares blame or fault. These comments also reveal strong probability of unwillingness to accept NCOs having official organizational authority to direct and evaluate activities of subordinates in the workplace.

Such attitude is often present in persons pursuing an accountability avoidance strategy. Such strategy typically involves projecting some mention of lacking trust in or being frightened of an immediate supervisor or supervisors in the workplace with hopes ambiguity and multiple interpretations will result in a more favorable outcome. Whether you want to accept the possibility I’m suggesting is immaterial, the point is it gives example of a undesired behavior pattern managers and supervisors in military, government, private, and even volunteer sectors have to confront and deal with. More importantly it demonstrates the importance of documentation when the remedy does get to the point of discipline or termination action the pattern of behavior and the corrective actions attempted need to hold up under scrutiny of legal review when it is pursued into the courtroom.

You are advocating in many of your comments the building better or improved superior subordinate communications and training, but your advocacy is limited to it’s the NCOs at fault. Certainly there are many examples to support this perspective. However, your experience of “old school” are hearsay and tall tales, there is nothing backing up events happened as you were told or overheard. I enlisted back in 1973 and have considerable in the field embedded either doing training or operations with teams and units of all the services. I was there as old school dealing with a large enlisted force structure of inducted conscripts transformed into the all volunteer Army, Navy, Marines, and Air Force. I lived and worked old school. I’m quite able to lead old school and I’m quite capable of leading the way it is done in today’s all volunteer military. You have a lot of tall tale misconceptions of the effectiveness of old school.

Regarding your assertions of military leading experience and the authority you have. You need to be a bit more truthful. I’m not impressed or fooled by your exaggerations and duplicity.


I may be a SrA, but I am in directly in charge of almost two dozen Airmen daily. I track their progress, professional deficiencies, and personal issues. I have never recommended paperwork for these Airmen to the NCO above me because I know there are more effective methods. I generally discourage the paperwork method.


… I was placed in charge of him and therefore have the authority to issue lawful orders regarding the completion of an assigned task or duty, such as showing up for duty at the correct time or doing PT with the rest of the unit.
…
This doesn't even have anything to do with SrA; it has to do with the fact that I'm an Airman placed in charge of other Airmen, so all the stuff about being a rater, ALS, reporting official, etc doesn't apply.
…
The biggest difference is that my unit puts much more stress on junior rank, even if most Airmen just don't care. Respect and courtesy is demanded of all Airmen to anyone who outranks them. There's a SrA who outranks me by 3 weeks and it was made clear to me that though I'm in charge of him (only because I was there first) that I am not to disrespect him in any manner. It does apply. Are you the immediate supervisor rating any member of your unit? This means specifically you are the one providing the airman performance feedback (AF Form 911) and you are the one writing the annual enlisted performance report (AF Form 910) and signing the rater’s signature block? Authority to direct and supervise activities of subordinates or coworkers in the workplace regarding the completion of an assigned task or duty, such as showing up for duty at the correct time or doing PT with the rest of the unit is not the authority to issue lawful orders that must be complied with. The orders to be complied with such as duty hours, shift, and unit PT schedule was issued by somebody else you are just being given the responsibility to ensure others comply or to keep activities organized and structured.


I've actually been leaning closer and closer to the Corps because of their leadership style. I love the old-school military they still manage to hold on to amidst all this happy horse sh!t in the other services. The only problem I'd have with going Corps vs. Army is the demotion to what I was told is E-2 (E-3 if I have enough college, which I may by that time). By the time the Air Force approves my conditional release from service, I'll be E-5, so it's a big pill to swallow to go back to the bottom of the pecking order. I'm starting to think it's more and more worth it however. I'm still a bit blinded by the tan beret in the 75th Ranger Regiment though. I guess I've got the next couple years to figure it out since the AF is not letting me go any time soon. It would be nice if the new CSAF and SECAF make the changes I want to see, but I really doubt it. They're still concerned with losing numbers because of people not wanting to "be like the Army" and "stay true to our heritage" even though they're one in the same.Lots of ifs and wannabee in your future military career paths. I am very familiar with the authority corporal (E-4) squad leaders have. The line authority is dormant or little used until being present in an active combat zone. However even on training maneuvers the squad leader is doing more issuing of orders than the activities you are describing as giving orders. The SrA has no acting NCO status at any time or place. BTW do you have your 3-skill level yet? You do know a 5-skill level is needed to sew on E-5?


I really have to agree here. As enlisted, I went to the AF Academy thinking I could get that great education and escape the ridiculous NCO Corps...thinking that if I stayed in long enough, I could bring about change. Needless to say, I petitioned for disenrollment and returned to enlisted. The officer corps, especially among AFA grads, is rampant with careerist backstabbers. I honestly have to say that the good officers coming out of there are the exception. The rest are average or mediocre at best. Considering this disclosure I do not have confidence you will find happiness being a Marine or a U.S. Army Ranger either. All the military services have careerists and career politics. There is no avoiding on-the-job and in the workplace intrapersonal relationshiips and the conflicts that come with them.

[johca]

These are very career-specific leadership roles. Finance is not Combat Finance. IMers don't give me my GTC in the heat of combat, but they all still have NCOs that are expected to lead subordinated and command authority, even outside of combat.Yes there is supervisory roles and manager roles in every careerfield, but you are very mistaken about command authority in combat and outside of combat that comes with being a Line NCO.



The best ones I see are taking the star away from non-NCOs on our rank (for AF) and making E-4 an NCO or at least junior NCO in all services. The star is removed from AF rank for the reason of having technician ranks like the WWII Army up through E-7. Get the star when you're an NCO. If technical specialty is what you need, then military authority is irrelevant and it should be delegated to those who 1) can handle it, and 2) actually want it.Yes the star was modified on the E-4 stripes for a reason when E-4 SrA/Sgt existed. The reason has many similarities to why the U.S. Army had non-NCO ranks up to E-9. The E-4 Corporal had rank and precedence over all specialist ranks. Had you been an old school Army E-4 Corporal from 1959 to 1965 you would have your greatest fantasy of being able to give orders to every specialist, regardless of rank and grade, you could find. Some how I don’t believe your old school methods would be very long term effective in getting any respect or compliance from those specialists back in the old school days. Yes it is important the person given NCO rank have the aptitude and functional fitness to perform the duties. Wanting it differs from willingness and commitment to be there performing implied unwritten duties to ensure your teams success within the assigned mission when the going gets tough. It means using good judgment when isolated from command and control. It means fully understanding the line NCO authority to direct soldiers to take action within the scope of the mission and the military objective. Ordering a team member to assault a machine gun bunker is not something any leader wants to do, but it is something that sometimes has to be ordered to get done. Please note the example is somewhat extreme as these days they call in an air strike, but it illustrates the leader autonomy and authority the Line NCO has.

For the record the Master Specialist/Specialist Seven rank was discontinued in 1978. The specialist ranks were put in place so the Army could promote those having strong leader abilities in the NCO ranks while still giving reliable and dependable enlisted having strong technical and administrative skills and experience pay grade promotions.

BTW: Noncommissioned officers’ command authority is inherent with the job by virtue of position to direct and control armed combatants. Within the Army such authority is given to NCO tank commanders, team Leaders, combat patrol leaders, etc. Within the Air Force such authority is rare even within the Battlefield Airmen specialties, but certainly so is found within the team leaders and NCOs of the Pararescue Squadrons and Special Tactics Squadrons. Consequently if you want such Line NCO authority so badly you now know what Air Force enlisted career fields to submit your retraining request for without having to give up your E-5 SSgt rank if and when you get it.

[weazlefuzion]

weazlefuzion, it is very clear from your posts the Air Force’s NCO corps disgust you, in fact there is a considerable amount of how the Air Force trains and is organizes that you are disappointed with. You are very astute of my going to source policy and it was done as one of your significant complaints of why you are unhappy with the Air Force is all your trainers and NCOs told you to "This is the military, get used to it!" to justify why things get done or happen the way they do. You also seem to have a fixation on “old school” that is anchored in stories rather than being there experience.

Many of your post have a common connection of superior-subordinate conflict directed towards: (1) NCOs being inept; (2) unwillingness to accept personal accountability can and may require being documented; (3) everybody having ability to be a leader and should be a leader regardless of rank; and, (4) you knowing you having strong ability to be a leader.

At the moment it appears you are a first term SrA directing and activities of at least one subordinate with accompany claim you give lawful order to others that they must comply with. The source policy was provided to measure your pretense and exaggerations of fame, power and importance in accomplishing your unit’s day-to-day operations.

Unfortunately you believe you are sufficiently equal to play hardball with subordinates and superiors. It begs the question for what purpose.


The above comments made by you certainly exposes a strong negative belief bias towards the NCO always shares blame or fault. These comments also reveal strong probability of unwillingness to accept NCOs having official organizational authority to direct and evaluate activities of subordinates in the workplace.

Such attitude is often present in persons pursuing an accountability avoidance strategy. Such strategy typically involves projecting some mention of lacking trust in or being frightened of an immediate supervisor or supervisors in the workplace with hopes ambiguity and multiple interpretations will result in a more favorable outcome. Whether you want to accept the possibility I’m suggesting is immaterial, the point is it gives example of a undesired behavior pattern managers and supervisors in military, government, private, and even volunteer sectors have to confront and deal with. More importantly it demonstrates the importance of documentation when the remedy does get to the point of discipline or termination action the pattern of behavior and the corrective actions attempted need to hold up under scrutiny of legal review when it is pursued into the courtroom.

You are advocating in many of your comments the building better or improved superior subordinate communications and training, but your advocacy is limited to it’s the NCOs at fault. Certainly there are many examples to support this perspective. However, your experience of “old school” are hearsay and tall tales, there is nothing backing up events happened as you were told or overheard. I enlisted back in 1973 and have considerable in the field embedded either doing training or operations with teams and units of all the services. I was there as old school dealing with a large enlisted force structure of inducted conscripts transformed into the all volunteer Army, Navy, Marines, and Air Force. I lived and worked old school. I’m quite able to lead old school and I’m quite capable of leading the way it is done in today’s all volunteer military. You have a lot of tall tale misconceptions of the effectiveness of old school.

Regarding your assertions of military leading experience and the authority you have. You need to be a bit more truthful. I’m not impressed or fooled by your exaggerations and duplicity.

It does apply. Are you the immediate supervisor rating any member of your unit? This means specifically you are the one providing the airman performance feedback (AF Form 911) and you are the one writing the annual enlisted performance report (AF Form 910) and signing the rater’s signature block? Authority to direct and supervise activities of subordinates or coworkers in the workplace regarding the completion of an assigned task or duty, such as showing up for duty at the correct time or doing PT with the rest of the unit is not the authority to issue lawful orders that must be complied with. The orders to be complied with such as duty hours, shift, and unit PT schedule was issued by somebody else you are just being given the responsibility to ensure others comply or to keep activities organized and structured.

Lots of ifs and wannabee in your future military career paths. I am very familiar with the authority corporal (E-4) squad leaders have. The line authority is dormant or little used until being present in an active combat zone. However even on training maneuvers the squad leader is doing more issuing of orders than the activities you are describing as giving orders. The SrA has no acting NCO status at any time or place. BTW do you have your 3-skill level yet? You do know a 5-skill level is needed to sew on E-5?

Considering this disclosure I do not have confidence you will find happiness being a Marine or a U.S. Army Ranger either. All the military services have careerists and career politics. There is no avoiding on-the-job and in the workplace intrapersonal relationshiips and the conflicts that come with them.

The whole "old school" military thing is not necessarily a reference to the past's ways because, as you pointed out, I don't have that experience and the ways aren't exactly what everyone says they were, but you're avoiding the issue at hand by making that argument at all. Same goes for this whole thing about the authority I do or do not have as a SrA, though I absolutely disagree with you and so does the AFI and my supervisor who gives me what little authority I do have.

Yes, I believe many problems the services have today are because of the NCO Corps and misguided policies set from above. I've already explained what I think and why and I've conceded where I learned something new or was wrong.

No, there is absolutely no absolution of responsibility by holding NCOs responsible for their Airman, just as there is not absolution of responsibility in holding one Airman responsible for another's actions. Group punishment and reward will inherently breed peer leadership amongst the Airman Tier, no matter how you look at it.

Yes, I'm aware of the skill-level requirements for E-5, though in my field (linguist) we often test for Staff before we have our 5-level and sew on later. I even know of an NPS SrA, with no 3-level, that was authorized to test for Staff. I disagree with the requirements because skill-level and technical capacity have nothing to do with your ability to supervise. I understand that with the Air Force's mission and jobs that maybe this is the best way to do things. Wonderful... but I don't like it, so I won't stick around.

It is my personal belief that giving E-4s some NCO powers will improve the issue by having that one extra layer of leadership. They would only be effective if the Air Force didn't rely only upon the standard office-style leadership of a supervisor, but also upon squad leaders in the unit for military training and standards. This is something Army does, which reduces quality of life with all the extra formations and crap, but I think it works better. If you disagree, oh well, I've been there and I agree with it. The intel field is rampant with multiple chains of command, especially when you go through the DLI, so we did what I just explained, except we had buddy-fucker ropes instead of NCOs who know what they were doing because the prior service students were "special" and went home after class or came in after formation and were not required to lead or mentor in any manner.

I'm aware of politics and careerists and backstabbers being everywhere but a different culture in each profession and in each service makes the transparency of the issues a little different in each case.

You seem to be repeating yourself often, so maybe what I'm saying is either not articulated well enough or you don't understand it. You and I are simply going to have to agree to disagree on almost every subject here. I have people here who agree with me and you have people that agree with you, so that just means there are at least two different styles of leader, or at least two ways of interpreting doctrine and each one has its pros and cons.

[johca]

I've been both a student and staff member at the Air Force Academy, and I've met plenty of ROTC cadets and grads as well.


Same goes for this whole thing about the authority I do or do not have as a SrA, though I absolutely disagree with you and so does the AFI and my supervisor who gives me what little authority I do have.Your full of it, how many of your peers do you write an EPR. Perhaps you don’t understand my beating around the bush, you have no creditability as yo lack the experience and the the beining there performing responsibilities and accountability.



Wonderful... but I don't like it, so I won't stick around.You have a receptive history of not sticking around, why should your self eliminating yourself again be evidence of what's wrong with the Air Force?



I've been both a student and staff member at the Air Force Academy Quite an exaggeration of Staff and unless you care to clarify, it is more probable you had an assignment to a support unit at the Academy and you were an enlisted cadet candidate who voluntarily disenrolled from the Air Force Academy Preparatory School.

Once you separate from the active duty Air Force you will be prior service and even if to enlist in another service your concept of what you believe leading is and improvement of military culture is not going to be there. Although a slightly different culture in each profession exists in each service the differences you are looking for pertinent to imagined old school NCO methods are not existing in the way you believe.



It is my personal belief that giving E-4s some NCO powers will improve the issue by having that one extra layer of leadership.It’s not going to happen in the Air Force, the NCO status of E-4 rank in the Air Force force-structure was taken away for many reasons. One of the reasons was it is an unnecessary layer. It wasn’t just the Air Force and DoD that determined this; it was GAO studies and the U.S. Congress. The Air Force has to adhere to the same constraints the other services must adhere to pertinent to ensuring that the force structure matches congressionally authorized force structure levels. There are commissioned to enlisted ratios, NCO to enlisted ratios, and enlisted career to first term ratios that Congress looks at when funding manpower. The bottomline is the Air Force having the highest commissioned to enlisted ratio also had more leader positions than it needed. The move to establishing SrA was to get Air Force more aligned with the other services promotion opportunity to E-4 during the first enlistment. To get around the congressionally imposed NCO manpower limits for the Sgt E-4. The force structure back in the 1970s was sufficient to support the split. As Force structure was reduced the leader to follower ratio no longer supported the need within the Air Force’s force-structure for E-4 NCOs. This is a simplistic explanation but it does give some of the reasons why SrA is not an NCO rank.

The military is capabilities based on response to events or show of force to prevent events becoming engaged armed conflict. The Air Force isn’t a maneuver on the ground or on the seas fighting asset. It’s war fighting assets are aircraft, missiles, UAVs and other types of weapon systems having very little crew to lead. Consequently there is very little need for line NCOs within the Air Force. The weapon systems of the naval armed forces are crewed ships, the weapon systems of the Army and Marines are primarily combat infantry assets and resources. The manned or crewed weapon systems of the Air Force are primarily aircraft. The air force has only one manpower ground battlefield weapon system asset or capability and it is not Air Force Security Forces. The infantry company and squad organization doesn’t meet the majority of the combat Air Forces’ concepts of operations and roles-and-missions.



You and I are simply going to have to agree to disagree on almost every subject here. I have people here who agree with me and you have people that agree with you, so that just means there are at least two different styles of leader, or at least two ways of interpreting doctrine and each one has its pros and cons.Yes we will,

I noticed you hace concerns of adaptability to respond to unconventional, limited conflict, irregular warfare and etc in another post. This link below should give some indication of where the Air Force is a player in such activities.


Special Operations/Low-Intensity Conflict and Interdependent Capabilities (ASD/SOLIC&IC) (http://www.defenselink.mil/policy/sections/policy_offices/solic/)

These core tasks, according to USSOCOM's 2007 Posture Statement, include counterterrorism; unconventional warfare; direct action; special reconnaissance; foreign internal defense; civil affairs, information and psychological operations; and counterproliferation of WMD. Section 167 of Title 10 USC provides a very similar but not identical list of SOF activities.

[weazlefuzion]

Your full of it, how many of your peers do you write an EPR. Perhaps you don’t understand my beating around the bush, you have no creditability as yo lack the experience and the the beining there performing responsibilities and accountability.
I don't really understand half of this. I already told you I write no EPRs and my credibility is just as well as yours: only what I can tell anyone on here who cares to listen.


You have a receptive history of not sticking around, why should your self eliminating yourself again be evidence of what's wrong with the Air Force?
The self-elimination at the Academy's Prep School was because it would have required me to stay in an organization I disliked for another 13 years. (1 year prep, 4 years cadet, 8 years officer)


Quite an exaggeration of Staff and unless you care to clarify, it is more probable you had an assignment to a support unit at the Academy and you were an enlisted cadet candidate who voluntarily disenrolled from the Air Force Academy Preparatory School.
You're right. And what's this have to do with our NCOs? I was simply stating that I've seen how the Air Force trains its "cream of the crop" officer corps and didn't like that either. When I tried to disenroll, citing my decision to become a warrant officer in the Army or Marine Corps, the only thing my commander came back with was "I ran the numbers on what your retirement would look like, and here's the difference between a 20yr O-5 and 20yr CW5." If money were an issue, I wouldn't have enlisted to begin with. I disenrolled and was assigned to the Prep School HQ for five months, had a deployment, crosstrain, and Blue-to-Green packet denied, all for good reason though. In the end, I had worked with Cadet Candidates, Cadets, a couple of the best NCOs and plenty of the mediocre, and with many new and old Academy graduates. Once again, only to give a sample of what I saw and didn't like.


Once you separate from the active duty Air Force you will be prior service and even if to enlist in another service your concept of what you believe leading is and improvement of military culture is not going to be there. Although a slightly different culture in each profession exists in each service the differences you are looking for pertinent to imagined old school NCO methods are not existing in the way you believe.
I constantly volunteer for training with the other services and see the exact environment I enjoy. I'll just say you're wrong and move on.


It’s not going to happen in the Air Force, the NCO status of E-4 rank in the Air Force force-structure was taken away for many reasons. One of the reasons was it is an unnecessary layer. It wasn’t just the Air Force and DoD that determined this; it was GAO studies and the U.S. Congress. The Air Force has to adhere to the same constraints the Other services must adhere to pertinent to ensuring that the force structure matches congressionally authorized force structure levels. There are commissioned to enlisted ratios, NCO to enlisted ratios, and enlisted career to first term ratios that Congress looks at when funding manpower. The bottomline is the Air Force having the highest commissioned to enlisted ratio also had more leader positions than it needed. The move to establishing SrA was to get Air Force more aligned with the other services promotion opportunity to E-4 during the first enlistment. To get around the congressionally imposed NCO manpower limits for the Sgt E-4. The force structure back in the 1970s was sufficient to support the split. As Force structure was reduced the leader to follower ratio no longer supported the need within the Air Force’s force-structure for E-4 NCOs. This is a simplistic explanation but it does give some of the reasons why SrA is not an NCO rank.

Great points. Once again you totally avoid the issue. The only part up there that made sense in the argument is the bold portion. But all you did was state the exact opposite of what I said and just sit on it. Our inflated leadership ranks do not come from all the leadership roles people are put in. They come from all the jobs that the AF requires commissioned officers to do and from a promotion system that promotes almost everyone instead of the militarily capable. None of the other services have problems making E-4 (even the NCO versions) within the first term enlistment so I don't really know where that crock came from.



The military is capabilities based on response to events or show of force to prevent events becoming engaged armed conflict. The Air Force isn’t a maneuver on the ground or on the seas fighting asset. It’s war fighting assets are aircraft, missiles, UAVs and other types of weapon systems having very little crew to lead. Consequently there is very little need for line NCOs within the Air Force. The weapon systems of the naval armed forces are crewed ships, the weapon systems of the Army and Marines are primarily combat infantry assets and resources. The manned or crewed weapon systems of the Air Force are primarily aircraft. The air force has only one manpower ground battlefield weapon system asset or capability and it is not Air Force Security Forces. The infantry company and squad organization doesn’t meet the majority of the combat Air Forces’ concepts of operations and roles-and-missions.

Well I'm glad you see the military as such a well-oiled machine. You're constantly talking about high-level concepts like COO and whatever else. Yet again, I've already stated that the problems I see start with doctrine and policy.


I noticed you hace concerns of adaptability to respond to unconventional, limited conflict, irregular warfare and etc in another post. This link below should give some indication of where the Air Force is a player in such activities.
Post all the policy, doctrine, press releases and philosophy you like. Then post examples of where it's all been working so damn well. This isn't only about the Air Force. This is about all of the services. We have had over 100,000 of what are supposedly the best-trained military personnel in the world serving in Iraq for over half a decade. We destroyed the conventional army within three weeks. Now we're losing to a disorganized band of farmers with slingshots and leftover Soviet weaponry from the 70s and 80s. Decentralization is the key to modern warfare. The Army and Marine Corps is starting to understand this with simple things like delegating aircraft and other equipment all the way down to the Company level, putting more trust and power into the hands of junior officers who undoubtedly have to ask more of their NCOs as a result. I hear more and more about how the Army wants its own UAVs so they can hand them down to units where they're more effective than the bureaucracy of JTACs running around with their units making troops in the heat of battle wait 20+min for an airstrike.


I haven't been in the Air Force long. Sure, I'm a first-term Airman, but I've done nothing but bleed blue and work my ass off for an organization that doesn't seem to care about returning the favor. Sacrifices aren't just limbs and wounds and I've made more than enough sacrifices for this good ol' boys club where I don't even have the opportunity of advancement based upon ability. Quality of life does not begin and end at flat-screen TVs, air-conditioned desert tents and nice dorms. It begins and ends with the most important people in our military, the non-commissioned officer, and as far as I'm concerned, top brass has totally forgotten that concept amidst all the arguments about uniforms that don't work outside of downtown NYC and how many Airmen they can toss out - oops - and how many they can get to join again.

I really don't understand how you take everything I say and twist it the way you do, so unless someone else has something to contribute to this thread, I'm done arguing with you. You and I are exact opposites on these issues. I am not a stubborn ass and am always very willing to learn and change my views based upon something I'm taught, but you've failed to show me nothing I haven't already read, debated on or dismissed as either something I simply don't agree with or something that I interpret differently.

It doesn't take rank to lead; it takes a leader. When the promotion system understands this, we'll have the NCOs we need to stand up and do what they need to do like the OP said in the very first post.

[SinisterK9]

Weazle,

I'll agree that rank is not necessarily based on ability or leadership qualities. But so far as nearly every Enlisted rank, its a pretty easy system to make things happen for yourself. I made BTZ. I made SSgt in about 3 years, and sewed on at my 4 year mark. Now its taken me a while to finally make TSgt, but it finally happened in my 9 years and change thus far. I'll sew on at my 10 year mark. Some people would say that's not a bad pace. Personally I feel like a failure for taking so long to make TSgt, but I'm happy I finally got it.

My point is, if an Enlisted person does not make rank, they have no one to blame but themselves. It's easy enough. You basically perform an invisible checklist every year to get a good EPR. Then, you take a test. If you make a good enough score, you are thereby promoted. You can't CLEP an entire college degree. For the most part you can't CLEP your rank either. Do your required TIS/TIG, make the scores, earn the rank. Take the initiative to make it happen for yourself.

I'm in no way calling you out, or pointing a finger at you. I am simply spring boarding my post off of your statement about your perception of not having any opportunities for advancement.

"Nobody gives it to you. You have to take it".

[weazlefuzion]

Weazle,

I'll agree that rank is not necessarily based on ability or leadership qualities. But so far as nearly every Enlisted rank, its a pretty easy system to make things happen for yourself. I made BTZ. I made SSgt in about 3 years, and sewed on at my 4 year mark. Now its taken me a while to finally make TSgt, but it finally happened in my 9 years and change thus far. I'll sew on at my 10 year mark. Some people would say that's not a bad pace. Personally I feel like a failure for taking so long to make TSgt, but I'm happy I finally got it.

My point is, if an Enlisted person does not make rank, they have no one to blame but themselves. It's easy enough. You basically perform an invisible checklist every year to get a good EPR. Then, you take a test. If you make a good enough score, you are thereby promoted. You can't CLEP an entire college degree. For the most part you can't CLEP your rank either. Do your required TIS/TIG, make the scores, earn the rank. Take the initiative to make it happen for yourself.

I'm in no way calling you out, or pointing a finger at you. I am simply spring boarding my post off of your statement about your perception of not having any opportunities for advancement.

"Nobody gives it to you. You have to take it".

That's all understood, and it's a decent pace in the Air Force, but the other services offer the opportunity to promote sooner if you deserve it.

Example, the soonest you can make E-5 in the Air Force is at that approximate 4yr mark because of the annual testing cycle. This is citing the best of circumstance (i.e. enlist as E-3 for college with DOR at BMT start date, receive BTZ for E-4, pass test first try for E-5).

In the Marine Corps, you can make Corporal with 12mos TIS, or 6mos TIS for a meritorious promotion. That means if you demonstrate the ability to lead, you can get promoted sooner. Obviously this may be restricted slightly by MOS, but it is certainly possible and I've seen the 12 month promotion happen. You can make MSG (E-8) in only 8 years. Almost all of that power is delegated to the CO to decide if the Marine is capable of performing at that level. The Air Force centralized its promotions much higher up the totem pole and restricts advancement as a result. The only thing offered is the occasional STEP for someone who can't pass the test.

I know many Airmen who received BTZ because they worked at the dog shelter or were a green rope (which requires no leadership skill as we all know), while Airmen who were great leaders were passed over because of one reason or another. We could have used the leadership of CPLs at the DLI specifically where the unit was a mess because of a lack of manning since the Air Force centralized leadership in training with MTLs.

The MCO regarding promotions is here as a source: http://www.usmc.mil/news/publications/Documents/MCO%20P1400.32D.pdf (page 20)

[Combat correspondent]

That's all understood, and it's a decent pace in the Air Force, but the other services offer the opportunity to promote sooner if you deserve it.

Example, the soonest you can make E-5 in the Air Force is at that approximate 4yr mark because of the annual testing cycle. This is citing the best of circumstance (i.e. enlist as E-3 for college with DOR at BMT start date, receive BTZ for E-4, pass test first try for E-5).

In the Marine Corps, you can make Corporal with 12mos TIS, or 6mos TIS for a meritorious promotion. That means if you demonstrate the ability to lead, you can get promoted sooner. Obviously this may be restricted slightly by MOS, but it is certainly possible and I've seen the 12 month promotion happen. You can make MSG (E-8) in only 8 years. Almost all of that power is delegated to the CO to decide if the Marine is capable of performing at that level. The Air Force centralized its promotions much higher up the totem pole and restricts advancement as a result. The only thing offered is the occasional STEP for someone who can't pass the test.

I know many Airmen who received BTZ because they worked at the dog shelter or were a green rope (which requires no leadership skill as we all know), while Airmen who were great leaders were passed over because of one reason or another. We could have used the leadership of CPLs at the DLI specifically where the unit was a mess because of a lack of manning since the Air Force centralized leadership in training with MTLs.

The MCO regarding promotions is here as a source: http://www.usmc.mil/news/publications/Documents/MCO%20P1400.32D.pdf (page 20)


He is absolutely correct. I work with a MSgt (E-8) who put the 3rd rocker under his rifles in a little under 12 years. This guy asks me all the time what is wrong with me --- why am I so slow. I explain to him all the time that a TSgt at 11 years in my branch is not that bad - actually, its normal. Not to mention, I was demoted from Cpl. to A1C when I "crossed into the blue." So, I made SrA at about 4.5, SSgt at about 6, etc., etc. Still, I have no doubt that if I were still in the Corps, I'd be a Gunny (E-7) by now, at least.

[CrustySMSgt]

That's all understood, and it's a decent pace in the Air Force, but the other services offer the opportunity to promote sooner if you deserve it.

Example, the soonest you can make E-5 in the Air Force is at that approximate 4yr mark because of the annual testing cycle. This is citing the best of circumstance (i.e. enlist as E-3 for college with DOR at BMT start date, receive BTZ for E-4, pass test first try for E-5).

In the Marine Corps, you can make Corporal with 12mos TIS, or 6mos TIS for a meritorious promotion. That means if you demonstrate the ability to lead, you can get promoted sooner. Obviously this may be restricted slightly by MOS, but it is certainly possible and I've seen the 12 month promotion happen. You can make MSG (E-8) in only 8 years. Almost all of that power is delegated to the CO to decide if the Marine is capable of performing at that level. The Air Force centralized its promotions much higher up the totem pole and restricts advancement as a result. The only thing offered is the occasional STEP for someone who can't pass the test.

I know many Airmen who received BTZ because they worked at the dog shelter or were a green rope (which requires no leadership skill as we all know), while Airmen who were great leaders were passed over because of one reason or another. We could have used the leadership of CPLs at the DLI specifically where the unit was a mess because of a lack of manning since the Air Force centralized leadership in training with MTLs.

The MCO regarding promotions is here as a source: http://www.usmc.mil/news/publications/Documents/MCO%20P1400.32D.pdf (page 20)


Weaz...

I can't figure you out... you're either some kind of evil genius, or competely full of shit... I just can't decide which. Somehow you managed to pack more experience in your first-term than most do in a career. You got through basic & linguist tech school (2 years?), went to your first duty assignment, had time to submit a Academy package, get accepted, attend the prep school for long enough to know you didn't want to stay, work on "the staff" for 5 months, and then...

Not sure how long you've been in, but sounds like most of your career has been spent outside the norms of "the real Air Force." I've know a few linguists and a couple DLI instructors, and I gotta say, that long tech school does something to make y'all some odd folk... probably a mix of living in that environment, dealing with the quirky civilian instructors, the mix of prior service and pipeline, and who knows what else...

Your quest for more responsibility and NCO status conflicts with your assessment of most of the NCO corps. You look enviously at the greener pastures on the Marine Corps, with thier ability to obtain NCO status in as early as 6 months. That is a whole different world... not to diminish what they do, but for the most part, enlisted Marines sole mission in life is to kick-ass. Their whole exsistance revolves around leading Marines; they have very minimal support structure, unlike the Air Force, so the comparison is apples & oranges. A Marine Cpl's role is to motivate junior Marines... they live together, train together, and know each other. In the Air Force, a vast majority of 3-4 year SSgts have yet to figure out how to lead, so the comparison doesn't wash. The same goes as you progress in rank/responsibility; an 8 year MSgt is great for someone who's sole responsibility is to lead a bunch of moto Marines who jump when he says jump, shit when he says shit, and kick ass when he says kick ass. You bitch & moan about the lack of respect a SSgt gets, and blame the SSgt for not being an effective leader... do you honestly think an 8 year MSgt will have any better results?

Who knows what's what... no way to know on the board if your really a pompous know-it-all bucking for Chief SrA of the Air Force, or a natural leader destined to be a future CMSAF. If you're the real deal, I encourage you to stay in an make a difference. Granted it is often an uphill battle, but the rewards of being that one guy in a person's career who really made a difference far outweigh the frustration of fighting the good fight. Before you head off to those greener pastures across the fence, I'd do my best to find some who've made that leap of faith and see if it is really all that. Looking in from the outside it might look like things are they way they seem... but that is not always the case.

Don't mean to bust your balls, you seem like a pretty smart guy... but again, this is just a message board, so it is hard to weed out the keyboard warriors from the real deal...

Good luck with whatever you decide... hope it works out for you.

[weazlefuzion]

Weaz...

I can't figure you out... you're either some kind of evil genius, or competely full of shit... I just can't decide which. Somehow you managed to pack more experience in your first-term than most do in a career. You got through basic & linguist tech school (2 years?), went to your first duty assignment, had time to submit a Academy package, get accepted, attend the prep school for long enough to know you didn't want to stay, work on "the staff" for 5 months, and then...

Not sure how long you've been in, but sounds like most of your career has been spent outside the norms of "the real Air Force." I've know a few linguists and a couple DLI instructors, and I gotta say, that long tech school does something to make y'all some odd folk... probably a mix of living in that environment, dealing with the quirky civilian instructors, the mix of prior service and pipeline, and who knows what else...

Your quest for more responsibility and NCO status conflicts with your assessment of most of the NCO corps. You look enviously at the greener pastures on the Marine Corps, with thier ability to obtain NCO status in as early as 6 months. That is a whole different world... not to diminish what they do, but for the most part, enlisted Marines sole mission in life is to kick-ass. Their whole exsistance revolves around leading Marines; they have very minimal support structure, unlike the Air Force, so the comparison is apples & oranges. A Marine Cpl's role is to motivate junior Marines... they live together, train together, and know each other. In the Air Force, a vast majority of 3-4 year SSgts have yet to figure out how to lead, so the comparison doesn't wash. The same goes as you progress in rank/responsibility; an 8 year MSgt is great for someone who's sole responsibility is to lead a bunch of moto Marines who jump when he says jump, shit when he says shit, and kick ass when he says kick ass. You bitch & moan about the lack of respect a SSgt gets, and blame the SSgt for not being an effective leader... do you honestly think an 8 year MSgt will have any better results?

Who knows what's what... no way to know on the board if your really a pompous know-it-all bucking for Chief SrA of the Air Force, or a natural leader destined to be a future CMSAF. If you're the real deal, I encourage you to stay in an make a difference. Granted it is often an uphill battle, but the rewards of being that one guy in a person's career who really made a difference far outweigh the frustration of fighting the good fight. Before you head off to those greener pastures across the fence, I'd do my best to find some who've made that leap of faith and see if it is really all that. Looking in from the outside it might look like things are they way they seem... but that is not always the case.

Don't mean to bust your balls, you seem like a pretty smart guy... but again, this is just a message board, so it is hard to weed out the keyboard warriors from the real deal...

Good luck with whatever you decide... hope it works out for you.

My career has definitely been outside the norm and though I'm well-aware that I have plenty to learn, I also have plenty to give as well. I've worked at 5 different bases, a couple for only a week and the others for an extended amount of time, and this has garnered me much experience that others just don't get.

I've been taught that "the grass is always greener on the other side, until you find out the lawn is over a septic tank," and I believe it. I'm not interested in the Army because of the promotion system or the discipline which, right or wrong, I think is undeniably better; I'm going because of the childish will to follow in Dad's footsteps as a Ranger and SF op. The promotion system is just a huge bonus. The Marines was just something I've put more thought into over the past year because I love the culture that's bred and considering my choice of future profession, I know I wouldn't be upset.

As far as that MSG getting the respect our SSgt's don't get, yes, I think they do. Obviously the shitty NCO won't get respect, but because of the "everyone's a leader" mentality the Marines have, it seems to me that they would get the experience and piss-off-my-subordinates mistakes out of their system after having more time as actual leaders because of the fact that they must lead fire-team-sized units in combat.

I understand the apples to oranges concept you brought up, and it's a great point. I guess it's just a matter of the AF culture disagreeing with me.

However, I have to point out, that after all the debating I've done on here, I'm not the one who started the thread, so someone else out there agrees that the NCO Corps needs some change.

[SinisterK9]

Combat and Weazel,

I understand that you can make the rank a little faster in the other services. But what I also saying is you can make rank at a reasonably close rate in the AF is you are on a fast track. I said I made TSgt this time around with about 9+ yrs in service. That was my 4th time testing. Meaning, I could have had MSgt by now if I would have fast tracked. The opportunity is there for those that want it. I didn't study the last 4 years. That was on me and no one else. I can't say it enough, the opportunity is there to make rank, and make it fast if you want it. No excuses. Basically 2 years in your rank and you test. Is that really that long?

[CrustySMSgt]

My career has definitely been outside the norm and though I'm well-aware that I have plenty to learn, I also have plenty to give as well. I've worked at 5 different bases, a couple for only a week and the others for an extended amount of time, and this has garnered me much experience that others just don't get.


See, when you say things like that, you add fuel to the fires of those who question your credibility. The 2 "just there for a couple weeks" bases don't count for nothing... you didn't work there, and had little if no exposure to anything outside a training environment. Your first base was basic... certainly not "working" or the real Air Force. Next comes tech school @ DLI, a long time spent in a disfunctional tech school... again, not working or the real Air Force. Then to AFA prep, still not working or Air Force. Then you drop out, and are assigned to the AFA HQ, pretty far from real Air Force, and you are a 1N311 in casual status; your not in upgrade training, and your assigned unit has no vested intrest in mentoring, training, or gainfully employing you, because you're just there until someone figures out what to do with you... so you're stuck doing details. So when it comes down to it, your knowledge of "old school," operational supervision, and what it takes to be an NCO comesa from what you learned from your Army SF father... and we have never, and ain't never gonna measure up to that.

As I told you before, you seem like a pretty smart guy... but until you've "been there, done that," no one is going to take you very seriously. I'll give you credit for talking a good game, and seriously hope you stay in and put your theories to the test and become a great NCO.

[weazlefuzion]

As I told you before, you seem like a pretty smart guy... but until you've "been there, done that," no one is going to take you very seriously. I'll give you credit for talking a good game, and seriously hope you stay in and put your theories to the test and become a great NCO.

That's why I'm here. :) There's only ever two options in a debate, to teach or to learn. One learns best when trying to teach, especially teaching to your own teachers.

[johca]

That's all understood, and it's a decent pace in the Air Force, but the other services offer the opportunity to promote sooner if you deserve it.


He is absolutely correct.Career progression opportunities difference are not the result of if you deserve it you are promoted sooner.

All the services have the same manpower fiscal constraint imposed by Congress of assigned missions shall be accomplished using the least costly mix of personnel (military, civilian, and contract) consistent with military requirements and other needs of the department. Also some military occupations have greater change of employed in one fashion during peacetime and in another during wartime. In regards to career progression to NCO rank and up the NCO rank, it is a closed system all NCOs are promoted from within the enlisted ranks.

Each military service has obstacles to getting promoted to NCO and subsequent promotion to higher NCO rank. Such promotion is not: (1) a self assessment and selection process; and, (2) is process limited by decreasing manpower requirements for each higher NCO grade. Army, Navy, Marine, Air Force, and Coast Guard each has their own assessment measurement and other eligibility standards that supposedly select those most capable of performing at the higher rank.

All the services also have first enlistment manpower requirements that are greater than the reenlistment manpower requirement for second enlistment and subsequent career enlistment manpower requirements. Each Line NCO rank and grade is connected to the force structure Congress funds to commit to combat. For all intent and purposes all other NCO positions can be converted to civilian civil service positions. In fact many military manpower studies are recommending just that.

Since Marine Corps promotions apparently is the bench mark of perfection it should be noted unlike the Air Force the Marine Corps has faster and slower promoting MOS’s. Each MOS has a differing grade shape whereas the Air Force tends to have a similar pyramid grade structure for each grade with most manpower position in the E-3, E-4 and E-5 grades or if using skill level those enlisted ranks and grades having 5-skill level and 7-Skill level up to about the 14 year time in service point. There is not sufficient funded grade structure above E-5 to support a significant promotion opportunity beyond E-5. The Air Force manages this at the end of the first enlistment through the Selective Reenlistment and Career Job Reservation programs. The High Year of Tenure (up or out enlisted service limits) catch those that don’t get promoted as the force structure regardless of service and enlisted occupation is designed to maintain the actual strength in each grade with functional fitness at the maximum readiness for commitment to combat.

The Marine Corps has similar strength in each enlisted grade as all the other services. Although there are differences in retention the Marine Corps like all the other military services has High Year of Tenure (up or out enlisted service limits). The Marine Corps enlisted HYT limit for each grade is very similar to the Air Force’s. Although the Marine Corps differs in method of assessment and selecting who to promote from all eligible. The assertion of you-deserve-you-get-promoted sooner is a false assertion as the direct cause for the difference has nothing to do with quality of the promoted and more to do with retention numbers.

[weazlefuzion]

Career progression opportunities difference are not the result of if you deserve it you are promoted sooner.

All the services have the same manpower fiscal constraint imposed by Congress of assigned missions shall be accomplished using the least costly mix of personnel (military, civilian, and contract) consistent with military requirements and other needs of the department. Also some military occupations have greater change of employed in one fashion during peacetime and in another during wartime. In regards to career progression to NCO rank and up the NCO rank, it is a closed system all NCOs are promoted from within the enlisted ranks.

Each military service has obstacles to getting promoted to NCO and subsequent promotion to higher NCO rank. Such promotion is not: (1) a self assessment and selection process; and, (2) is process limited by decreasing manpower requirements for each higher NCO grade. Army, Navy, Marine, Air Force, and Coast Guard each has their own assessment measurement and other eligibility standards that supposedly select those most capable of performing at the higher rank.

All the services also have first enlistment manpower requirements that are greater than the reenlistment manpower requirement for second enlistment and subsequent career enlistment manpower requirements. Each Line NCO rank and grade is connected to the force structure Congress funds to commit to combat. For all intent and purposes all other NCO positions can be converted to civilian civil service positions. In fact many military manpower studies are recommending just that.

Since Marine Corps promotions apparently is the bench mark of perfection it should be noted unlike the Air Force the Marine Corps has faster and slower promoting MOS’s. Each MOS has a differing grade shape whereas the Air Force tends to have a similar pyramid grade structure for each grade with most manpower position in the E-3, E-4 and E-5 grades or if using skill level those enlisted ranks and grades having 5-skill level and 7-Skill level up to about the 14 year time in service point. There is not sufficient funded grade structure above E-5 to support a significant promotion opportunity beyond E-5. The Air Force manages this at the end of the first enlistment through the Selective Reenlistment and Career Job Reservation programs. The High Year of Tenure (up or out enlisted service limits) catch those that don’t get promoted as the force structure regardless of service and enlisted occupation is designed to maintain the actual strength in each grade with functional fitness at the maximum readiness for commitment to combat.

The Marine Corps has similar strength in each enlisted grade as all the other services. Although there are differences in retention the Marine Corps like all the other military services has High Year of Tenure (up or out enlisted service limits). The Marine Corps enlisted HYT limit for each grade is very similar to the Air Force’s. Although the Marine Corps differs in method of assessment and selecting who to promote from all eligible. The assertion of you-deserve-you-get-promoted sooner is a false assertion as the direct cause for the difference has nothing to do with quality of the promoted and more to do with retention numbers.

No matter how hard I try, I can't seem to not disagree with you on almost everything you type here, especially in this post because you are absolutely wrong in the over all intent.

Yes, every service has manpower requirements and retention rates to meet and blah blah blah. The point I made is that in the Air Force "everyone gets promoted" is absolutely plausible because regardless of AFSC, you can promote just as quickly, or slowly, as anyone else because you're waiting for TIS/TIG like everyone else. The two specialties I'm interested in (intel and infantry) are highly promotable in each the Army and Marine Corps based on those manning requirements. I don't care about why the sky is blue here and red-ish on Mars. The point is, it is red on Mars and if I like it, I'm going to friggin Mars.

johca, I respect the fact that your a retired SNCO, that you were a PJ, and that you served the country, but 90% of what you posted was totally innocuous information. Every one of your posts has been like this.

HYT doesn't matter; I already mentioned that each MOS is promoted differently, and the reason behind the fact that you get promoted faster in the other services is irrelevant. The other services have higher manning requirements for NCOs due to the different missions, different jobs, etc etc etc. What it comes down to is commanders have more slots to hand out (in the professions I care about) and therefore people who deserve get promoted sooner with less regard to TIS/TIG. I know this because while going through language training, I had a long way out till I put on E-4, yet there I was standing at parade rest for a Corporal who had significantly less TIS than I did and could put on E-5 before I was even eligible for BTZ.

[johca]

The point is, it is red on Mars and if I like it, I'm going to friggin Mars.Good luck on Mars rocket man. However your rocket isn’t even on the launch pad yet and you haven’t successfully completed the required qualification training to even push the launch button.

[ramprat]

johea. whats the ratio of general to enlisted in the af??

[Combat correspondent]

All the services have the same manpower fiscal constraint imposed by Congress of assigned missions shall be accomplished using the least costly mix of personnel (military, civilian, and contract) consistent with military requirements and other needs of the department. Also some military occupations have greater change of employed in one fashion during peacetime and in another during wartime. In regards to career progression to NCO rank and up the NCO rank, it is a closed system all NCOs are promoted from within the enlisted ranks.

Johca, same/same across the board due to congress. So, are you telling me it is possible to make (and wear) E-8 in less than 12 years in the Air Force? Additionally, are you telling me it is possible to make (and wear) E-5 in less than 3?

If we are all same/same across the board...why is it Navy and Army can put on as high as E-4 after graduation of Basic Training and Air Force and Marines cannot?

Clear that up, please...

[Combat correspondent]

Also, johca, when you said "The Marine Corps enlisted HYT limit for each grade is very similar to the Air Force’s," this was not true.

You can retire as an E-5 in the USAF. In the USMC, if you don't make E-6 by HYT, you are separated. There are other differences, as well.

[johca]

Also, johca, when you said "The Marine Corps enlisted HYT limit for each grade is very similar to the Air Force’s," this was not true.

You can retire as an E-5 in the USAF. In the USMC, if you don't make E-6 by HYT, you are separated. There are other differences, as well.Here's the policy, I read it before I posted my previous comment.

SUBJ/MCBUL 5314 ENLISTED CAREER FORCE CONTROLS (ECFC) PROGRAM// (http://www.marines.mil/news/messages/Pages/MCBUL5314ENLISTEDCAREERFORCECONTROLS(ECFC)PROGRAM. aspx)



THE CURRENT SERVICE LIMITS ARE AS
FOLLOWS:
CPL 8 YEARS
SGT 13 YEARS
SSGT 20 YEARS
GYSGT 22 YEARS
1STSGT/MSGT 27 YEARS
SGTMAJ/MGYSGT 30 YEARS

I gave a simplified Clift Notes of military manpower and force structure management as it applies to all the military services the point of my post was there are more similiarities than difference pertient to how much of the enlisted force structure gets to remain serving a 20 year career. Enlisted force structure is not funded to result in producing large numbers longevity retirements.

First term enlisted retention of enlisted marines to sustain a 100% manned career force is 25%. After a first-term Marine re-enlists, the Corps considers him “a career Marine”.

The Air Force has a higher retention based technical skilled force structure requirement. Enlisted airmen are not considered career until after the second enlistment and it is the retention rate for the third enlistment that determines what the Air Force considers "a career airman". Air Force needs a 55% first term, 75% second term, and 95% third term enlistment rates to sustain the highly skilled career force it needs. The focus is on skill levels and not line NCOs. The Air Forces greatest need is for 5-skill and 7 skill level technicians and specialists.

[johca]

HYT doesn't matter; I already mentioned that each MOS is promoted differently, and the reason behind the fact that you get promoted faster in the other services is irrelevant. The other services have higher manning requirements for NCOs due to the different missions, different jobs, etc etc etc. What it comes down to is commanders have more slots to hand out (in the professions I care about) and therefore people who deserve get promoted sooner with less regard to TIS/TIG. I know this because while going through language training, I had a long way out till I put on E-4, yet there I was standing at parade rest for a Corporal who had significantly less TIS than I did and could put on E-5 before I was even eligible for BTZ.ROFL—Other services have higher manning requirements for NCO due to different missions. You are confusing pay grade and career goals with NCO status and authority. NCO authority varies from unit to unit, even position within the unit, and occupation to occupation (MOS/AFSC).

The Air Force needs is not boots on the ground but rather 3-skill level, 5-skill level and 7-level skilled technician maintainers to maintain aircraft and other weapon systems. The Air Force need is highly technical skilled laborers and not infantry assets executing successfully the full range of ground combat missions.

The differences in reenlistment retention rates needed to support career force and promotion progression opportunities gives appearance those more deserving get promoted sooner, however my point is: (1) possessing minimum TIS & TIG for promotion to particular NCO rank and grade does not mean the Marine will automatically be promoted as there are other must be qualified requirements; and (2) possession of all other qualifications is no guarantee either as there are fiscal and grade strength limits in each MOS and at each unit. The latter translates to the unit commander is given authority to promote only so many each promotion cycle.

It would be interesting to see percentage rates for how many Marines are forced out by HYT before reaching twenty years and how airmen suffer the same fate. I suspect the data would show there is sooner promotion opportunity, but career progression percentages of making twenty years for eligibility for a longevity retirement for all the services are probably about the same. The enlisted military retiree regardless of service branch is typically an E-6.

[Gunner007]

...

While stationed in Okinawa, I had 2 stinky, nasty Airmen. Time and time again I talked to them about hygiene and they never seemed to get it. Finally, I had enough and one Saturday morning I threw on swim trunks, packed up some soap, shampoo, wash rag, boot polish and headed out the door. My wife thought I was crazy.

I pounded on one of their door and woke him up - then told him to go get his friend A1C Nasty. I brought A1C Nasty and A1C Stinky and we all crammed into Stinky's head. I got in the shower and demonstrated how they should take a shower --- starting w/ shampoo, moving onto soap --- the whole 9 yards. A1C Nasty started laughing at one point. I lost it on him and let him know we'd be doing the same thing at 0600 the next day - which we did.

....

It's all about what the NCOs and SrA are willing to do, and actually do for their subordinates - the future of the Air Force rests on us!

Its not that i think you did a bad thing, i applaud your style and effort! We too had a supremely nasty guy in our unit. Before i arrived here this guy had been counseled repeatedly. When that didnt work they took an active role, while he was deployed his rater/mentor was tasked to literally follow him around and ensure he showered (because he wouldnt), brushed his teeth (he apparently wouldnt), and cleaned his clothes. This kid stunk soooooo bad!! He managed to hold it together while deployed and then came back stateside and went right back to OMG gag me!
At this point he was sent to CC with an emphasis on teaching him hygeine. After CC he came back and seemed fixed. A couple weeks later we deployed. On said deployment i went into his room looking for a fellow crewmember and was gagged by the stench. After investigating i found out it was him and his area that stunk not the sewage pond that occasionaly blows our direction.
I am sorry, but you guys dont get it. This kids parents may have failed him but he went to basic. They taught him to shower daily, to clean his clothing, and to clean floors and rooms! He was then councelled more, then sent to CC and taught this stuff again. I have a different POV, i wrote his LOR and included in it if he failed to maintain standards his ass was gone! He failed again, big shock. When he got back CONUS proceedings began and he is now holding a spatula and a paper hat at some fry joint!
I am NOT going to babysit some guy on the premise he doesnt know how to wash his ass. He went to basic, he knows how to be clean, he went to basic, he knows how to do laundry, if he went to tech school, he knows how to meet standards. Its not like he has amnesia! If someone isnt going to clean themselves and their clothing, BYE, dont come back!
Kudos to you, your more compassionate than i am!

[johca]

If we are all same/same across the board...why is it Navy and Army can put on as high as E-4 after graduation of Basic Training and Air Force and Marines cannot?

Clear that up, please...The Air Force has the highest commissioned to enlisted ratio. The high number of commissioned officers imposes limits on the numbers funded in the NCO supervisory layers. The Marine Corps has the lowest officer to enlisted ratio, it’s enlisted force structure is also consider a combat ground force and is managed as such. Its greatest reliance of ground combat leadership is placed upon its staff noncommissioned officers.

Current Ratios as best as I can figure from Google search:

Air Force 1:4
Army 1:5
Navy 1:6
Marine 1:15
Coast Guard 1:15

Within the Army, platoon, company, and battalion in particular are considered combat commands. The Army Warrant Officer is considered commissioned specialists and this is why they be very prevelant in Army aviation flying helicopters. The purpose for military commission other than within the noncombat military service occupations is to get experience and strenghten fitness to hold combat command authority and perform command duties.

It should be noted U.S. Congress is pressuring the military departments to have low officer to enlisted ratio. The Air Force’s problem is its rated officers are its fighting tooth and if you look where most of the officer numbers are it is in the medical noncombat service and rated fly and fight career fields. The UAV, tactical airlift and fight to create a joint military medical service along with converting logistics and other rear area support to civilian and contracted organizations has Air Force in a corner pertinent to growth and development of officers to assume combat command leader positions.

While I agree many points you bring to the table concerning the Air Force’s NCO corp are correct and accurate I disagree with the NCO corp being considered rotten to the bone. The NCO rank is more of a paygrade given to supervise and manage than a line NCO duty purpose. Even within the other services there are MOSs that this also holds true.

[weazlefuzion]

The Air Force has the highest commissioned to enlisted ratio. The high number of commissioned officers imposes limits on the numbers funded in the NCO supervisory layers. The Marine Corps has the lowest officer to enlisted ratio, it’s enlisted force structure is also consider a combat ground force and is managed as such. Its greatest reliance of ground combat leadership is placed upon its staff noncommissioned officers.

Current Ratios as best as I can figure from Google search:

Air Force 1:4
Army 1:5
Navy 1:6
Marine 1:15
Coast Guard 1:15

Within the Army, platoon, company, and battalion in particular are considered combat commands. The Army Warrant Officer is considered commissioned specialists and this is why they be very prevelant in Army aviation flying helicopters. The purpose for military commission other than within the noncombat military service occupations is to get experience and strenghten fitness to hold combat command authority and perform command duties.

It should be noted U.S. Congress is pressuring the military departments to have low officer to enlisted ratio. The Air Force’s problem is its rated officers are its fighting tooth and if you look where most of the officer numbers are it is in the medical noncombat service and rated fly and fight career fields. The UAV, tactical airlift and fight to create a joint military medical service along with converting logistics and other rear area support to civilian and contracted organizations has Air Force in a corner pertinent to growth and development of officers to assume combat command leader positions.

While I agree many points you bring to the table concerning the Air Force’s NCO corp are correct and accurate I disagree with the NCO corp being considered rotten to the bone. The NCO rank is more of a paygrade given to supervise and manage than a line NCO duty purpose. Even within the other services there are MOSs that this also holds true.

All this talk of HYT, retention rates, retirement grades, officer/enlisted ratio, and all the other stuff doesn't matter. These are awkward tangents and vaguely related to the issue at hand. If you can say:


While I agree many points you bring to the table concerning the Air Force’s NCO corp are correct and accurate I disagree with the NCO corp being considered rotten to the bone.

Then propose a solution instead of arguing over how quickly one can or can't get promoted. Obviously it was related to a previous post, but the thread has been hijacked, let's get back on track and come to a reasonable consensus.

Also:

The NCO rank is more of a paygrade given to supervise and manage than a line NCO duty purpose.
Three points to note:
1) This is what I see as the issue (and I think CombatCorrespondent does too)
2) "Supervise" is a very vaguely-defined term as we've demonstrated with our arguments on how to "supervise".
3) Though the other services of course have similar MOS' with the same issues, due to the Air Force's missions, most of our AFSC's (non-combat) seem to fall into the category where NCO rank is just paygrade. When you tell an NCO that his rank is just paygrade (as opposed to actual rank) then what incentive does he have to actually enforce policies and standards that are outside of his direct supervision? If he's just a supervisor, like what a corporation has, then he doesn't have power beyond his shop (ex: HR guy telling an R&D guy that he's supposed to wear a tie, company policy. He doesn't care about the R&D guy.). NCOs are supposed to be Air Force leaders and enforce standards anywhere, anytime, even if the AFI doesn't explicitly state that (maybe it should). This is not a company, so the 'HR' NCO can certainly tell the 'R&D' Airman to get a haircut or wear his uniform correctly.

[johca]

If he's just a supervisor, like what a corporation has, then he doesn't have power beyond his shop (ex: HR guy telling an R&D guy that he's supposed to wear a tie, company policy. He doesn't care about the R&D guy.). NCOs are supposed to be Air Force leaders and enforce standards anywhere, anytime, even if the AFI doesn't explicitly state that (maybe it should). This is not a company, so the 'HR' NCO can certainly tell the 'R&D' Airman to get a haircut or wear his uniform correctly.The authority to enforce standards comes from commissioned officers having command authority. In the regard the mediocre you are complaining about, it is a direct result of commissioned officers using civilian management philosophies to run organizations like a civilian organization and repressing NCO authority over the years. The greatest deterioration of NCO authority and utilization began happening with the peace dividend drawdown during the period of 1988 to 1995. The Air Force put all emphasis of minimizing forced reduction of commissioned officer force structure as much as possible at the expense of the NCO force structure.

During this period the SSgt, TSgt, and MSgt ranks were virtually decimated by offers of 15 year retirements and other best volunteer to separate buy outs or get nothing. My former career field went from being somewhat healthy to a 50% manning shortfall. Within two months it transformed into a 50% undermanned career field of mostly first term airman and more than 15 years in service NCOs. It was ops tempo that pretty much allowed keeping SSgt, TSgts, and MSgt beyond HYT and some cases a few MSgt were kept on active duty past thirty years. The point of this is the NCO support channel that is subordinate to and supportive of the chain of command was ripped apart in many AFSCs and there were very little NCOs understanding the importance of the NCO support channel to mentor those enlisted subsequently promoted into the NCO ranks. At the same time the commissioned corps knew very little about the leading NCOs provide and the discovery of such ignorance resulted is new required PME for officers such as the now required Air and Space Basic Course (ASBC) for all Air Force Lieutenants regardless of commissioning program which have focus on the role of Air Force officers in leading within the team.



NCOs are supposed to be Air Force leaders and enforce standards anywhere, anytime, even if the AFI doesn't explicitly state that (maybe it should).It is stated in AFI 36- 2618 enlisted force structure, AFI 36-2503 Administrative Demotion of Airmen, UCMJ, etc. The assuming of E-5 rank and grade within the Air Force—not the selection for promotion—is the induction into NCO status that brings with it the greater responsibility of exercising greater authority of acting to enforce standards put in place by Air Force Instructions, General Orders, the UCMJ and supporting orders, policy and directives. Awareness and understanding the duties and responsibilities is gained through required in-residence attendance and successful completion of enlisted PME courses such as ALS, NCO Academy and Senior NCO Academy. Testing for each NCO rank and grade promotion requires studying Professional Military Education study materials (AFPAMPHLET 36-2241) as testing for E-5, E-6, and E-7 includes a PME test. Testing for E-8 and E-9 require the taking of the Supervisory exam.



This is not a company, so the 'HR' NCO can certainly tell the 'R&D' Airman to get a haircut or wear his uniform correctly.I agree.

Your emotional distress concerning AF NCO corps has strongest connection to an E-4 corporal or Petty Officer in the other services having NCO authority and being able to correct you and that the opportunity to have such NCO authority is given quicker in the other services. A considerable dissatisfaction with being a member of the Air Force is your promotion opportunity to and within USAF NCO rank and grade is being obstructed by TIG, TIS, skill level qualifications and a bunch of other edibility requirements you do not currently meet and will not meet any time soon combined with the belief you are a leader now.



and I've made more than enough sacrifices for this good ol' boys club where I don't even have the opportunity of advancement based upon ability.A delusional self assessment of your ability and potential. Your career choice to enlist in the Air Force and classification of being a linguist which is as administrative intensive with minimal physical hardships and no leading required duties as you can get as a military duty certainly demonstrates much about you know about your strengths, weaknesses and aptitude before you enlisted. Your self assessment shows how much you want to believe about yourself and how frustrated you are that you can’t be all you can be. The proof offered of your ability and natural born leader greatness is you are a SrA in charge of another SrA.

However you disclose a service history of failure to contribute and failure to succeed.

You freely disclose: (1) not being a rater and immediate supervisor of any other military member; (2) not having a 3-skill level and thus unqualified to perform duties of any AFSC; (3) voluntarily self eliminating from Air Force Academy Preparatory School; and (4) having more than two years active duty service time and being in either student status, awaiting retraining, or in local utilization status (base details) status. Your contribution to successfully accomplish any daily operations of a unit is assignment to 4 or 5 units since completing BMT. Unfortunately during those assignments you lacked qualification to perform duties of any AFSC and lacked qualification to supervise any task that supported the accomplishment of any military mission or operation.

We can now eliminate you being a trainer. A “Trainer” is the person who plans, conducts and documents training in another member’s official OJT record (AF Form 623). This only requires the attending of a training course and being 3-skill level task qualified and certified in the task being trained. Definitely a lack of qualification and certification to provide any war time skills training or core skills training. There is no disclosure of any official responsibilities having any official accountability and more importantly it is a safe bet you haven’t gotten an EPR that validates the quality of our performance. 120 days of supervision is required for a rater to evaluate you and combination of student status and frequency of being someplace other than in training for award of 3-skill level makes a safe bet you have no real duty responsibilities or accountability, you most certainly had no being charge of twenty airman on a daily basis as you have claimed. Yet somehow you are the better, stronger and more knowledgeable subject expert of being a military leader and performing NCO duties competently.



Then propose a solution instead of arguing over how quickly one can or can't get promoted. Obviously it was related to a previous post, but the thread has been hijacked, let's get back on track and come to a reasonable consensus. The first solution is for the Air Force to discharge a failure who believes his natural born leader talents is best suited for the Marine Corps or Army. The second solution pertinent NCOs need to step up-emergency on the horizon was never addressed it went into discussion of indulging the overprotecting and pampering of those unwilling and unable to perform or behave at or above minimum standards. The cause of AF NCO corps unable or unwilling to enforce standards is in the past. The emergency on the horizon is the next conflict and the Air Force’s unit and individual member’s combat readiness to respond. The focus should be on what are the common to all wartime leading skills and abilities all Air Force NCO should have rather than how much a not performing to standards member of the Air Force should be coddled.




This is about all of the services. We have had over 100,000 of what are supposedly the best-trained military personnel in the world serving in Iraq for over half a decade. We destroyed the conventional army within three weeks. Now we're losing to a disorganized band of farmers with slingshots and leftover Soviet weaponry from the 70s and 80s. Decentralization is the key to modern warfare. The Army and Marine Corps is starting to understand this with simple things like delegating aircraft and other equipment all the way down to the Company level, putting more trust and power into the hands of junior officers who undoubtedly have to ask more of their NCOs as a result. I hear more and more about how the Army wants its own UAVs so they can hand them down to units where they're more effective than the bureaucracy of JTACs running around with their units making troops in the heat of battle wait 20+min for an airstrike.These policy decisions are officers of government decisions which are made by the President, Secretary of Defense, the commander’s of the nine U.S. Combat Commands, and the Chief of Staff of each military Department. It is not a decision NCOs get directly involved with. I have no problem with Army owning its own UAVs, the last mile of tactical airlift, or the making of a Military medical service as such shortsightedness of past Air Force leaders only effected the need of air power being a separate military department coequal with the Army and the Navy.

Asymmetrical battlefields, irregular warfare. Low Intensity Conflict, special operations, military operations other than war have existed since the dawn of time. The tactics and strategies are known. The fighting to win comes down to the willingness and commitment to be there to do the fight. This is the Achilles Heal of the Air Forces force structure both enlisted and commissioned. Most people join the Air Force to avoid the hardships and perils of the ground battlefield. College graduates got their commission to avoid involuntary induction as enlisted into the infantry. High school graduates voluntarily enlisted to avoid involuntary induction to perform Army or Marine combat infantry duties. The Air Force turned its back on providing Army helicopter support on the battlefields of Korea and in post Vietnam the Air Force was negligent in sustaining capability and willingness to provide Army Close Air Support, tactical airlift and even aeromedical airlift. The Air Force as a military department is now paying for that shortsightedness. None of this however is applicable to NCOs need to step up to the emergency on the horizon.

The NCOs responsibility in responding to an event of emergency is to be capable to provide command should the commander become a causality or the unit becomes isolated and cutoff from the commander or its command and control. This level of duty is distinctly and clearly identified in the Code of Conduct.

E2.2.4. Article IV. IF I BECOME A PRISONER OF WAR, I WILL KEEP FAITH WITH MY FELLOW PRISONERS. I WILL GIVE NO INFORMATION OR TAKE PART IN ANY ACTION WHICH MIGHT BE HARMFUL TO MY COMRADES. IF I AM SENIOR, I WILL TAKE COMMAND. IF NOT, I WILL OBEY THE LAWFUL ORDERS OF THOSE APPOINTED OVER ME AND WILL BACK THEM UP IN EVERY WAY.
E2.2.4.1. Explanation. Officers and noncommissioned officers shall continue to carry out their responsibilities and exercise their authority in captivity.Consequently, the focus should be on what are the common to all wartime leading skills and abilities all Air Force NCO should have rather than how much a not performing to standards member of the Air Force should be coddled.

Please runaway from the Air Force to the Marines or the Army, I’m sure your great leader ability and accomplishment of a unqualified to perform duties of a 3-skill or 5-skill level SrA who is in charge of twenty airman will be immediately recognized in the way you believe you deserve. You have no creditability with me and you are cluess of many of the subject areas you try to discuss.

[weazlefuzion]

Your entire first paragraph isn't worth quoting because it's irrelevant.


...[removed to save space]...
Awareness and understanding the duties and responsibilities is gained through required in-residence attendance and successful completion of enlisted PME courses such as ALS, NCO Academy and Senior NCO Academy. Testing for each NCO rank and grade promotion requires studying Professional Military Education study materials (AFPAMPHLET 36-2241) as testing for E-5, E-6, and E-7 includes a PME test. Testing for E-8 and E-9 require the taking of the Supervisory exam.
We've already discussed what NCOs should be doing. We all know what tests and training they do to become NCOs. We don't know why they aren't applying that training.


Your emotional distress concerning AF NCO corps has strongest connection to an E-4 corporal or Petty Officer in the other services having NCO authority and being able to correct you and that the opportunity to have such NCO authority is given quicker in the other services. A considerable dissatisfaction with being a member of the Air Force is your promotion opportunity to and within USAF NCO rank and grade is being obstructed by TIG, TIS, skill level qualifications and a bunch of other edibility requirements you do not currently meet and will not meet any time soon combined with the belief you are a leader now.
My "emotional distress concerning AF NCO corps has strongest connection[sic]" to the lack of leadership. E-4 becoming an NCO has almost nothing to do with it, though I believe it could help. My problem with the NCO Corps is the lack of leadership established by virtue of being an Airman, not with tests and ALS. I shouldn't have to be an NCO, or even outrank someone, to be able to correct them politely for being out of regs without catching crap because I'm "just a damn Airman".


A delusional self assessment of your ability and potential. Your career choice to enlist in the Air Force and classification of being a linguist which is as administrative intensive with minimal physical hardships and no leading required duties as you can get as a military duty certainly demonstrates much about you know about your strengths, weaknesses and aptitude before you enlisted. Your self assessment shows how much you want to believe about yourself and how frustrated you are that you can’t be all you can be. The proof offered of your ability and natural born leader greatness is you are a SrA in charge of another SrA.
No, my choice of the Air Force and career field simply show my lack of research prior to enlisting. I don't know if you're a cynic, or just trying to be an ass. I have not offered any 'proof' of my 'greatness' as I don't believe I'm the reincarnation of some great Roman emperor. If you think the only way to see an issue and propose a solution to said issue is to have been there... well I don't even know what to say; you're just wrong.


However you disclose a service history of failure to contribute and failure to succeed.

You freely disclose: (1) not being a rater and immediate supervisor of any other military member; (2) not having a 3-skill level and thus unqualified to perform duties of any AFSC; (3) voluntarily self eliminating from Air Force Academy Preparatory School; and (4) having more than two years active duty service time and being in either student status, awaiting retraining, or in local utilization status (base details) status. Your contribution to successfully accomplish any daily operations of a unit is assignment to 4 or 5 units since completing BMT. Unfortunately during those assignments you lackerd qualification to perform duties of any AFSC and lacked qualification to supervise any task that supported the accomplishment of any military mission or operation.
1) Right
2) Right, kinda
3) Right
4) Student
I directly contributed to each and every unit and office in every place I've been and I am 100% positive that I've saved the Air Force a significant amount of time and/or money in several cases. (The cost of Prep School attendance is planned in the budget as I fell into the standard numbers of disenrollments, so don't bother going there.) I'm at odds whether I should justify myself so you don't erroneously claim I'm making shit up, or if I should just not bother so you can't twist it into me being a know-it-all ass who thinks commendation from a superior actually means something. I think enough is said with letters of thanks, coins, and COAs. My supervisor is the only one who need be justified.


There is no disclosure of any official responsibilities having any official accountability and more importantly it is a safe bet you haven’t gotten an EPR that validates the quality of our performance. 120 days of supervision is required for a rater to evaluate you and combination of student status and frequency of being someplace other than in training for award of 3-skill level makes a safe bet you have no real duty responsibilities or accountability, you most certainly had no being charge of twenty airman on a daily basis as you have claimed. Yet somehow you are the better, stronger and more knowledgeable subject expert of being a military leader and performing NCO duties competently.
Ah yes, a lack of disclosure clearly provides proof to the contrary. God doesn't exist because I can tell you that I haven't seen him (and no, I'm not religious in any manner; it's just an easy allegory for that ridiculous attempt at an argument). And I certainly just make shit up too; I mean, that's a great way to persuade in a debate.

I'm not even going to bother, seeing as how you agree with my very simple statement that something needs to be fixed in the AF NCO Corps and choose to run a personal insult campaign against me and cite documents someone else wrote instead of providing your own insight. I feel like a Democrat at the RNC; who cares what I can provide, I'm just a Democrat Socialist-Commie! (Once again, just an allegory, not a political hit.) I've done nothing here but politely ask for some input before you decided to act like a child and do nothing to help the situation. If it weren't for a link to what seems to be your authentic homepage, I'd think I was arguing with a 16yr old who's just trolling for shits 'n' giggles.


The first solution is for the Air Force to discharge a failure who believes his natural born leader talents is best suited for the Marine Corps or Army.
You're really good at making far-fetched inferences, aren't you? I believe what leadership talents I do have are simply there and I have much room to grow. I believe my advancement opportunities and the opportunity to become a real leader and grow as one will happen sooner in a promotion system I agree with. This is indisputable as the ability to promote faster in the other services is obvious. Don't try making some fuzzy reference to Congress and retention rates again; the Army and Marine Corps have a more favorable promotion system to those who demonstrate potential. These are two different concepts. Understand my statements before making blind attacks. You should also understand that when presenting ideas, one is to write in a certain manner so as to persuade, so much of what you take as arrogance is simply a style of writing taught in any standard composition course.


The second solution pertinent NCOs need to step up-emergency on the horizon was never addressed it went into discussion of indulging the overprotecting and pampering of those unwilling and unable to perform or behave at or above minimum standards. The "overprotecting and pampering" you refer to is simply a false exaggeration of what you see as a failed leadership style. For those of you who haven't read everything in the thread, he's referring to a previous post where an NCO said he personally taught two nasty Airmen what personal hygiene is instead of turning his back on them and filing discharge paperwork. He apparently is also referring to my ideas of group punishment to encourage peer leadership at all levels as these are the only two real concepts introduced in this entire thread. Johca also seems to feel that the current style of leadership is sufficient (give paperwork and walk away because you're not their mom).


The cause of AF NCO corps unable or unwilling to enforce standards is in the past. The emergency on the horizon is the next conflict and the Air Force’s unit and individual member’s combat readiness to respond. The focus should be on what are the common to all wartime leading skills and abilities all Air Force NCO should have rather than how much a not performing to standards member of the Air Force should be coddled. I'm glad that whatever unit you must be working with as a civilian now is so disciplined and well-led. Regardless of what you think of me, I'm not the one who started this thread and I'm not the only one who's stated the same.

See:
http://www.militarytimes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1569991
http://www.militarytimes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1569225
http://www.militarytimes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1568377

The 1st and 3rd are directly related and the 2nd is not so direct, but occasionally alludes to the same topics. Maybe I signed up as all these different usernames and posted kudos to my own posts! No? Well shit, I guess you should just take the easy way out of the conflict and attack the easy tech school SrA target, because he obviously doesn't know shit about leadership. I mean, only NCOs of 20+ years and crachety old officers know how to lead correctly. That's absolutely correct, because none of these men ever contributed to society after not serving in the military:
* John Adams
* Thomas Jefferson
* John Quincy Adams
* Martin Van Buren
* Grover Cleveland
* William Taft
* Woodrow Wilson
* Warren Harding
* Calvin Coolidge
* Herbert Hoover
* Franklin Roosevelt
* Bill Clinton

And of course let's not forget how much a mediocre leader Lincoln was. Really, screw that guy.
(sources: http://www.heptune.com/preslist.html#Military, http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080908094821AA0abyo, http://theredhunter.com/2004/08/presidents_and_military_experience.php)



These policy decisions are officers of government decisions which are made by the President, Secretary of Defense, the commander’s of the nine U.S. Combat Commands, and the Chief of Staff of each military Department. It is not a decision NCOs get directly involved with. I have no problem with Army owning its own UAVs, the last mile of tactical airlift, or the making of a Military medical service as such shortsightedness of past Air Force leaders only effected the need of air power being a separate military department coequal with the Army and the Navy.
Wait, what? Do you just copy and paste posts you've made in vaguely related arguments? You obviously missed my point. The Army and the Marine Corps don't fear empowering their NCOs and junior officers like the Air Force seems to do.


Asymmetrical battlefields, irregular warfare. Low Intensity Conflict, special operations, military operations other than war have existed since the dawn of time. The tactics and strategies are known. The fighting to win comes down to the willingness and commitment to be there to do the fight. This is the Achilles Heal of the Air Forces force structure both enlisted and commissioned. Most people join the Air Force to avoid the hardships and perils of the ground battlefield. College graduates got their commission to avoid involuntary induction as enlisted into the infantry. High school graduates voluntarily enlisted to avoid involuntary induction to perform Army or Marine combat infantry duties. The Air Force turned its back on providing Army helicopter support on the battlefields of Korea and in post Vietnam the Air Force was negligent in sustaining capability and willingness to provide Army Close Air Support, tactical airlift and even aeromedical airlift. The Air Force as a military department is now paying for that shortsightedness. None of this however is applicable to NCOs need to step up to the emergency on the horizon.
Fighting to win comes down to willingness and commitment? This is not a game of Stratego. If this is all it takes to win a war, we're all doomed.


The NCOs responsibility in responding to an event of emergency is to be capable to provide command should the commander become a causality or the unit becomes isolated and cutoff from the commander or its command and control. This level of duty is distinctly and clearly identified in the Code of Conduct.
How many current Air Force SSgt's do you trust to provide command? I'd have better luck living if I were a cake at a fat kid's birthday party.


Consequently, the focus should be on what are the common to all wartime leading skills and abilities all Air Force NCO should have rather than how much a not performing to standards member of the Air Force should be coddled.
No! No! No! and No! Apparently experience isn't everything... That "common to all wartime leading skills..." is bull. We don't need more centralized leadership from the top. We need AFIs that continue to give commanders proper power within their unique organization and commanders that properly delegate to their officers and NCOs. When leadership tries to generalize what they think is common throughout all organizations, even if they haven't been there, they alienate many groups who don't fall into the standard. This is why some disliked the "fighter mafia" that hadn't been broken until recently.


Please runaway from the Air Force to the Marines or the Army, I’m sure your great leader ability and accomplishment of a unqualified to perform duties of a 3-skill or 5-skill level SrA who is in charge of twenty airman will be immediately recognized in the way you believe you deserve. You have no creditability with me and you are cluess of many of the subject areas you try to discuss.
Ever heard of an "ad hominem" argument? That's all you've presented this forum with. You say, "Problem A is not really a problem. Oh, and by the way, you suck because X, Y, Z. I win." Well ya got me, man; I'm a failure in a bad disguise. You really outted me.

I didn't post in here to start problems and argue; I posted to have an intelligent argument with some individuals who are willing to debate maturely and maybe learn something. This isn't even my thread! You've already showed me your ineptitude to stay on topic and deal with the issue at hand and have not offered any of us a damn thing in the way of guidance, relevant information, or even proper insight or proof as to why the OP is wrong.

I'm glad I've had the free time to debate with you on here; you have at least taught me that maturity does not necessarily accompany age and experience. I have done my best to be relatively polite (you read my intro, so you know I'm sometimes impulsive with words) and I've even attempted to concede that I haven't been-there-done-that in many cases. I showed you respect as a retired SNCO and special operations servicemember knowing you've served your country. You on the other hand have shown me nothing but contempt and disrespect; you disagree with my stances on leadership based on the fact that you believe experience is the only way to have the credibility to propose a philosophy on a very broad topic even high school students can debate in a classroom.

[BRUWIN]

Where were you guys when the ABU was being designed?

[weazlefuzion]

Where were you guys when the ABU was being designed?

Lmao, I love the humor to lighten the mood. Did you see the original design in person? I saw those ugly blue things in the pictures, but they had a set on display at an MCSS and I almost puked. The new ones suck too. We could certainly start an entire forum based on uniform issues. Is there one? I haven't really looked.

[Shrike]

Lmao, I love the humor to lighten the mood. Did you see the original design in person? I saw those ugly blue things in the pictures, but they had a set on display at an MCSS and I almost puked. The new ones suck too. We could certainly start an entire forum based on uniform issues. Is there one? I haven't really looked.

Look through the different AF pages and you'll see numerous threads on ABUs and the new service dress.

[jsnchrry]

Lmao, I love the humor to lighten the mood. Did you see the original design in person? I saw those ugly blue things in the pictures, but they had a set on display at an MCSS and I almost puked. The new ones suck too. We could certainly start an entire forum based on uniform issues. Is there one? I haven't really looked.

I saw the original "blue"-DU's up close, Moody was one of the test bases.They were godawful. I remember Chief Murray came to our base and him telling us you could say anything you want about the new uniforms as long as it was positive.

[Combat correspondent]

Here's the policy, I read it before I posted my previous comment.

SGT 13 YEARS

Yes, Johca, that is what I was talking about. Sgt is E-5 and HYT is 13. That means if you don't make SSgt (E-6) by 13, you are out of here! In the AF, a SSgt (E-5) can retire.

[Combat correspondent]

Where were you guys when the ABU was being designed?

Oh my god, Bruwn....that is a thread in itself - go ahead and start one on it if you will :) I absolutely hate the ABU. New Service Dress --- what's the point in that. Lets waste more time and money so some p@nsie-@ss general can make his mark while he is in the "big seat." I just puked a little in my mouth thinking about it --- don't worry - I swallowed said puke.

I am curiouse, Bruwn, what is your take on SrA and NCOs taking a more active role in the immediate and hands-on discipline of airmen whenever they step out of line or don't meet standards. Basically, read the original posting and first few replies and then provide us your thoughts, please.

[johca]

Yes, Johca, that is what I was talking about. Sgt is E-5 and HYT is 13. That means if you don't make SSgt (E-6) by 13, you are out of here! In the AF, a SSgt (E-5) can retire.That's because the Air Force needs skilled labor force to fix aircraft and the fiscal trade off to afford the labor work force is a HYT that allows staying until twenty years. However, expect some changes now that military pay is extended out to 40 years and if eligibility for retirement entitlement and age requirement changes. TIG and TIS requirements might become occupation based rather than one TIG/TIS applies to all regardless of occupation.

Each service has its needs and manages its pertinent to rank/grade needs to best meet needs within fiscal constraints of budget. There is no requirement Air Force promotion process and NCO grade/rank distribution to be a clone of any of the other services. The NCO's supervisory role is to direct the behavior of others reward the accomplishment of assigned objectives. To know the Air Force and unit mission, the standards, policies, and other general orders. To know acceptable levels of performance and conduct. To identify violations of rules or substandard performance and take corrective actions. These duties and responsibilities are attached to NCO status and authority and not opportunity to increase in pay grade or how quickly promotions are earned.

[johca]

I do see a breakdown in junior NCOs leading, but I don't think you can place the fault squarely on them. It is AF culture to breed weak NCOs. I've posted my comments on this matter before. The AF for better or worse breeds a culture that doesn't respect command until someone is a SSgt.Please explain what command is and the circumstances and situations a NCO has command in the Air Force.

In the contributing to accomplishing day-to-day operations of a unit or the accomplishing of a tasked mission the expectation is the USAF NCO supervises.

This NCO's supervisory role is to direct the behavior of others toward the accomplishment of assigned objectives. Specific to this duty, the expectation is: (1) To know the Air Force and unit mission; (2) To know the standards, policies, and other general orders; (3) To know acceptable levels of performance and conduct; and, (4) To identify violations of rules or substandard performance or unacceptable conduct and take corrective actions.

These duties and responsibilities are specifically attached to NCO status and authority and Articles of UCMJ and the NCO commander backup the NCO’s authority to perform these duties. None of the duties mentioned above require the NCO to be in the chain-of-command duty position.

Perhaps it is the Air Force culture that breeds weak NCOs, but the failures is many NCOs and commanders have a unwillingness to take disciplinary actions for misconduct as it is believed conduct failures are performance problem that can be fixed by providing training.

Misconduct problems are more difficult to correct than substandard performance problems. Conduct problems are handled through admonishment, reprimand, administrative demotion to lower grade (failure to perform NCO duties), Article 15, Courts-martial, administrative separation, and punitive separation. Conduct problems are typically not correctable by giving on-the-spot correction of making individual do push-ups.

The failure is individual rather than officer corps or NCO corps. Once the NCO or Officer abandons ability to enforce and follow-up with harsher penalties or punitive discipline if performance reports, counseling, UIF, Control roster do not identify the pattern and more importantly the failure of corrective actions to improve the performance or conduct problem.

[CMSBROWN]

Please explain what command is and the circumstances and situations a NCO has command in the Air Force.

In the contributing to accomplishing day-to-day operations of a unit or the accomplishing of a tasked mission the expectation is the NCO supervises.

This NCO's supervisory role is to direct the behavior of others toward the accomplishment of assigned objectives. Specific to this duty, the expectation is: (1) To know the Air Force and unit mission; (2) To know the standards, policies, and other general orders; (3) To know acceptable levels of performance and conduct; and, (4) To identify violations of rules or substandard performance or unacceptable conduct and take corrective actions.

These duties and responsibilities are specifically attached to NCO status and authority and Articles of UCMJ and the NCO commander backup the NCO’s authority to perform these duties. None of the duties mentioned above require the NCO to be in the chain-of-command duty position.


Exactly! NCOs witnessing a violation anytime anyplace are responsible to correct that infraction. Too many turn a blind eye...as I said before in another post....My dad a 26yr AF Cop/1Sgt would often leave me standing, as a kid, while he chewed butt in uniform and out of uniform. He took his job as an NCO serious...which carried over to me. I will pop anyone anytime anyplace if you do not adhere to the standards. I will take care of any troop no matter where I am. They need help no matter what it is...you give it to them. If you cant you should know the agency who can. That is an NCO....we get back to the core of what an NCO entials the rest will follow. But until then we will struggle.

[Combat correspondent]

Exactly! NCOs witnessing a violation anytime anyplace are responsible to correct that infraction. Too many turn a blind eye...as I said before in another post....My dad a 26yr AF Cop/1Sgt would often leave me standing, as a kid, while he chewed butt in uniform and out of uniform. He took his job as an NCO serious...which carried over to me. I will pop anyone anytime anyplace if you do not adhere to the standards. I will take care of any troop no matter where I am. They need help no matter what it is...you give it to them. If you cant you should know the agency who can. That is an NCO....we get back to the core of what an NCO entials the rest will follow. But until then we will struggle.

Exactly CMSBROWN! You are 100% correct. Which leads me back to my original post that everyone got upset over --- was I really wrong?

I said this:While stationed in Okinawa, I had 2 stinky, nasty Airmen. Time and time again I talked to them about hygiene and they never seemed to get it. Finally, I had enough and one Saturday morning I threw on swim trunks, packed up some soap, shampoo, wash rag, boot polish and headed out the door. My wife thought I was crazy.

I pounded on one of their door and woke him up - then told him to go get his friend A1C Nasty. I brought A1C Nasty and A1C Stinky and we all crammed into Stinky's head. I got in the shower and demonstrated how they should take a shower --- starting w/ shampoo, moving onto soap --- the whole 9 yards. A1C Nasty started laughing at one point. I lost it on him and let him know we'd be doing the same thing at 0600 the next day - which we did.

Next day, Sunday, we did the same routine. And, after our shower class, we brushed teeth together. After that we ironed our cammies together. After that, we polished our boots together. Believe me, there was no smiling or laughing on Sunday.

And, until I PCSed to my next base, A1C Stinky and A1C Nasty were beacons of hygiene and had sharp uniforms and boots.

It's all about what the NCOs and SrA are willing to do, and actually do for their subordinates - the future of the Air Force rests on us!

[TheShaggy]

Exactly CMSBROWN! You are 100% correct. Which leads me back to my original post that everyone got upset over --- was I really wrong?

I said this:While stationed in Okinawa, I had 2 stinky, nasty Airmen. Time and time again I talked to them about hygiene and they never seemed to get it. Finally, I had enough and one Saturday morning I threw on swim trunks, packed up some soap, shampoo, wash rag, boot polish and headed out the door. My wife thought I was crazy.

I pounded on one of their door and woke him up - then told him to go get his friend A1C Nasty. I brought A1C Nasty and A1C Stinky and we all crammed into Stinky's head. I got in the shower and demonstrated how they should take a shower --- starting w/ shampoo, moving onto soap --- the whole 9 yards. A1C Nasty started laughing at one point. I lost it on him and let him know we'd be doing the same thing at 0600 the next day - which we did.

Next day, Sunday, we did the same routine. And, after our shower class, we brushed teeth together. After that we ironed our cammies together. After that, we polished our boots together. Believe me, there was no smiling or laughing on Sunday.

And, until I PCSed to my next base, A1C Stinky and A1C Nasty were beacons of hygiene and had sharp uniforms and boots.

It's all about what the NCOs and SrA are willing to do, and actually do for their subordinates - the future of the Air Force rests on us!

Dude, the stinky twins was a job for a Chief or a Senior, or at least that is how it seems the AF is now. I recently had one of my A1Cs that a situation at MPF where he got into an argument with the girl behind the counter. When I found out about it I went to MPF to find out what the deal was. As soon as my Airman's name came out of my mouth, the girls behind the counter went ape shit and wouldn't let me get a word in. Later, my Chief asked me why I didn't let him or our NCOIC handle the situation. I told him, "Chief, I'm a TSgt an NCO, A1C Turd pants is my Aiman. You promoted me to this position, sent me to NCOA, now let me do my job and take care of our folks." Why is a Chief worrying about what an A1C is doing? This is just where our AF is this day in age. I can't believe the Wing/CC didn't get involved in it. And you think I'm joking

edit: Oh and I'm willing to bet, had I not done anything at all, I would have gotten my ass chewed out for not dealing with the situation. It's a lose/lose AF we have

[Combat correspondent]

Dude, the stinky twins was a job for a Chief or a Senior, or at least that is how it seems the AF is now. I recently had one of my A1Cs that a situation at MPF where he got into an argument with the girl behind the counter. When I found out about it I went to MPF to find out what the deal was. As soon as my Airman's name came out of my mouth, the girls behind the counter went ape shit and wouldn't let me get a word in. Later, my Chief asked me why I didn't let him or our NCOIC handle the situation. I told him, "Chief, I'm a TSgt an NCO, A1C Turd pants is my Aiman. You promoted me to this position, sent me to NCOA, now let me do my job and take care of our folks." Why is a Chief worrying about what an A1C is doing? This is just where our AF is this day in age. I can't believe the Wing/CC didn't get involved in it. And you think I'm joking

edit: Oh and I'm willing to bet, had I not done anything at all, I would have gotten my ass chewed out for not dealing with the situation. It's a lose/lose AF we have

Sad, but you are right! Shaggy has one more example of why an emergency is on the horizon. Thanks for sharing Shag!

[CMSBROWN]

Exactly CMSBROWN! You are 100% correct. Which leads me back to my original post that everyone got upset over --- was I really wrong?

I said this:While stationed in Okinawa, I had 2 stinky, nasty Airmen. Time and time again I talked to them about hygiene and they never seemed to get it. Finally, I had enough and one Saturday morning I threw on swim trunks, packed up some soap, shampoo, wash rag, boot polish and headed out the door. My wife thought I was crazy.

I pounded on one of their door and woke him up - then told him to go get his friend A1C Nasty. I brought A1C Nasty and A1C Stinky and we all crammed into Stinky's head. I got in the shower and demonstrated how they should take a shower --- starting w/ shampoo, moving onto soap --- the whole 9 yards. A1C Nasty started laughing at one point. I lost it on him and let him know we'd be doing the same thing at 0600 the next day - which we did.

Next day, Sunday, we did the same routine. And, after our shower class, we brushed teeth together. After that we ironed our cammies together. After that, we polished our boots together. Believe me, there was no smiling or laughing on Sunday.

And, until I PCSed to my next base, A1C Stinky and A1C Nasty were beacons of hygiene and had sharp uniforms and boots.

It's all about what the NCOs and SrA are willing to do, and actually do for their subordinates - the future of the Air Force rests on us!

I don't think you were wrong. You as an NCO took a situation by the horns and did what you needed to do to mentor and train your airmen who obliviously had no home training and either in basic the DI's did nothing to fix it or the Stinky twins decided to let their hygiene faultier. You too the corrective action to get them back on track and they even seemed to have raised their standards by being impressive in uniform.

I DO NOT CARE WHAT ANYONE SAYS! A DISCIPLINED TROOP IS A HAPPY TROOP!

It shows the troop you care by correcting them to comply with standards. Come to my squadron at guard mount and see what happens if you are not standing tall and looking good in formation. You will not only be embarrassed by me but peer pressure is a M.F. in my squadron. I remember one time I was inspecting in guard mount and I came upon a new troop who looked like joe sh!t the rag bag! His squad leader was next to me during the inspection. I looked at that troop up and down...I then told that troop....I cannot believe you had the nerve to show up like this..uniform looked like he just took it out of the duffle bag, he needed a shave, and his boots looked like he just got done playing soccer. I looked at the squad leader and you could see the embarrassment and fire in his eyes. I told him to get the hell out of my formation and stand to the side. I continued the inspection of the rest of the ranks then proceeded to the front of the formation. I called that young man up front and said...Now...I want you to look at everyone's uniform in this formation...what do you see, start from the top and go down? He said I see high and tights(I shave my head...lol), uniforms ironed or starched, boots spit shined. I then said WHY IN THE HELL do you look like crap in my formation? Do you think the first day you show up you might want to look at least halfway decent? Your boots look like you just got done playing soccer...your uniform has more wrinkles than a shar-pei. Do you think if you would have at least ironed your uniform and brush shined your boots would you be getting your butt chewed in front of the unit? Probably not...I looked at the squad leader and said he is in charge of the sh!t details for the rest of the day and he better look better than this in tomorrow's formation. The next day....he blended quite well with the rest of the squadron.

We have rules and standards. You may not like them, you may not care about them. But it is our job as an NCO's to enforce the standards whether we like them or not. It is not our place to pick and choose which one we enforce. You should not turn a blind eye to any violation. When I was in Iraq I was constantly correcting NCO's who turned a blind eye to violations. After I was done providing mentoring, I would comment and we wonder why our troops act the way they do....because you allow them too. A disciplined troop is a happy troop and they are a troop who does their job according to task, conditions, and standards. They will do it right and in a exemplary manner...

My troops know the standard and they exceed it.

[Combat correspondent]

I
My troops know the standard and the exceed it.

You are a good example for those junior (and senior) to follow!

[CMSBROWN]

You are a good example for those junior (and senior) to follow!

Thank you...but there are some people who will always disagree. I have a feeling if I become the Command Chief in February....there will be some wind taken out of some sails due to my leadership style. We shall see.

[Measure Man]

I don't think you were wrong. You as an NCO took a situation by the horns and did what you needed to do to mentor and train your airmen who obliviously had no home training and either in basic the DI's did nothing to fix it or the Stinky twins decided to let their hygiene faultier. You too the corrective action to get them back on track and they even seemed to have raised their standards by being impressive in uniform.

Good god...don't encourage the boy.

...or maybe I just lack the professionalism and dedication required in today's AF...to take your Airmen in the shower and scrub their necks...

Don't be too surprised though if someday someone calls you out on that...and some humiliated Airman finds a sympathetic JAG to figure a way to charge you for something...I'm not sure yet...but there's gotta be something illegal about ordering grown man into the shower with you...

One of the best leadership lessons I've learned: If you treat them like children, they will act like children. If you treat them like adults, they will act like adults.

Now, I've had some stinky nasty Airmen before...usually a private word with them helped a great deal...but this guy has TWO in the same unit that are sooo stinky they needed to be showered by their supervisor? I get the idea that Combat Boy might be just a bit over-zealous himself...and in my unit, he'd probably get told to chill the F out before he kills somebody.

[CMSBROWN]

One of the best leadership lessons I've learned: If you treat them like children, they will act like children. If you treat them like adults, they will act like adults.


Measure...you would be surprised how many people who come into our military with the lack of home training or common sense.

Most times the funky bunch is taken care of at basic...if not by the Drill Instructors then by the other trainees.

But then again...these airmen would not be living this way if the leadership did dorm inspections/walk throughs more then once a year.

[Measure Man]

Measure...you would be surprised how many people who come into our military with the lack of home training or common sense.

Surprised? After 24+ years supervising Airmen, little surprises me...but I've yet had to shower one personally...have you?

Let alone TWO in one small shop?


Most times the funky bunch is taken care of at basic...if not by the Drill Instructors then by the other trainees.

But then again...these airmen would not be living this way if the leadership did dorm inspections/walk throughs more then once a year.

oh, we do plenty of dorm inspections 'round here...but I sorta draw the line at personal shower inspections...if it's that bad, refer them to mental health or something...but no way would I advise or encourage an NCO to take a shower with his Airmen...just asking for trouble if you ask me

I don't know how Stevie Wonder knows when he's done wiping his ass...but I doubt he has anyone in there to check for him...it's crossing a line, IMO.

[CMSBROWN]

Surprised? After 24+ years supervising Airmen, little surprises me...but I've yet had to shower one personally...have you?

Let alone TWO in one small shop?

oh, we do plenty of dorm inspections 'round here...but I sorta draw the line at personal shower inspections...if it's that bad, refer them to mental health or something...but no way would I advise or encourage an NCO to take a shower with his Airmen...just asking for trouble if you ask me

I don't know how Stevie Wonder knows when he's done wiping his ass...but I doubt he has anyone in there to check for him...it's crossing a line, IMO.

I have not personally gotten into the shower but I have had privates and airman handle it for me in my 27+years. :D

But I still commend CC for doing what needed to be done and seemed to be effective.

[Combat correspondent]

...if it's that bad, refer them to mental health or something...but no way would I advise or encourage an NCO to take a shower with his Airmen...just asking for trouble if you ask me

I don't think my course of action was missing its target at all...there was a problem that needed swift action and a good kick-in-the-butt fixing - its done now. Its having the balls early (I was a SSgt at the time) which makes or brakes a Staff NCO and future Senior NCO. As I stated many times my goal is to make Chief, hopefully become a Command Chief and possibly even be the "top dog."

I am quite sure these guys remember my name - and I hope they do. They are more than welcome to find a snotty-ass little Tom Cruise JAG (like Lt. JG Caffrey) to come after me and I'll play the part of Jack Nickolson. Just kidding...but, really, right is right and there is nothing to my knowledge wrong about what I did. I discussed it after the fact with my shirt and commander and they said it was quite unorthodox but didn't think it violated any regulation (uhhhh-hum, excuse me....don't want to piss any one off....) I mean didn't violate any instructions.

[Measure Man]

I don't think my course of action was missing its target at all...there was a problem that needed swift action and a good kick-in-the-butt fixing - its done now. Its having the balls early (I was a SSgt at the time) which makes or brakes a Staff NCO and future Senior NCO. As I stated many times my goal is to make Chief, hopefully become a Command Chief and possibly even be the "top dog."

...well, good luck with that


I am quite sure these guys remember my name - and I hope they do. They are more than welcome to find a snotty-ass little Tom Cruise JAG (like Lt. JG Caffrey) to come after me and I'll play the part of Jack Nickolson.

Most people remember the name of John Wayne Gacey, too...doesn't mean it's a good thing.

...well you remember what happened to Col. Jessup at the end of the movie, right?


Just kidding...but, really, right is right and there is nothing to my knowledge wrong about what I did. I discussed it after the fact with my shirt and commander and they said it was quite unorthodox but didn't think it violated any regulation (uhhhh-hum, excuse me....don't want to piss any one off....) I mean didn't violate any instructions.

Well...I can't think of any outright regulation that you violated either, honestly...but my spidey-sense doesn't think it was too cool. And well, you got a way with it...and maybe those guys decided to straighten up because of it...the end doesn't justify the means.

I once walked into one of our shops...and saw an Airman standing in the corner...facing the corner. I asked him what the hell he was doing...he said, "MSgt Bossman told me to stand in the corner because I made a smart ass remark during roll call."

Uhm...okay...the guy probably wouldn't make another smart-ass remark during roll call...but MSgt Bossman (not his real name) exceeded his authority. When I asked him...he said "Amn Smartass is being punished for being disrespectful"....at which point...of course, I had to ask MSgt Bossman if he understood that as an enlisted man he had ZERO authority to punish an Airman. He didn't know that....

...and while yours could easily be considered training and certainly not punishment...well, let's just say I wouldn't do it...but maybe that's why I'm not CMSAF...LOL. I just hope I'm long gone before a CMSAF stands up to speak and tells tales of personally showering his Airmen or uses that as an example of leadership.

[Smeghead]

Exactly CMSBROWN! You are 100% correct. Which leads me back to my original post that everyone got upset over --- was I really wrong?

I said this:While stationed in Okinawa, I had 2 stinky, nasty Airmen. Time and time again I talked to them about hygiene and they never seemed to get it. Finally, I had enough and one Saturday morning I threw on swim trunks, packed up some soap, shampoo, wash rag, boot polish and headed out the door. My wife thought I was crazy.

I pounded on one of their door and woke him up - then told him to go get his friend A1C Nasty. I brought A1C Nasty and A1C Stinky and we all crammed into Stinky's head. I got in the shower and demonstrated how they should take a shower --- starting w/ shampoo, moving onto soap --- the whole 9 yards. A1C Nasty started laughing at one point. I lost it on him and let him know we'd be doing the same thing at 0600 the next day - which we did.

Next day, Sunday, we did the same routine. And, after our shower class, we brushed teeth together. After that we ironed our cammies together. After that, we polished our boots together. Believe me, there was no smiling or laughing on Sunday.

And, until I PCSed to my next base, A1C Stinky and A1C Nasty were beacons of hygiene and had sharp uniforms and boots.

It's all about what the NCOs and SrA are willing to do, and actually do for their subordinates - the future of the Air Force rests on us!

I'm not sure where I fall on this one anymore. I usually disagree with your opinions on everything. If I was being 100% honest I don't think I'd have the balls to do it. I've had personally, and witnessed firsthand, more than a few instances of doing the right thing and correcting someone, only to have that POS go over my and others heads resulting in the corrector being publicly corrected. Can only get burned so many times ...

What would have been your approach had the Airmen been of a different gender? Or of a different ethnic background?

[Combat correspondent]

I'm not sure where I fall on this one anymore. I usually disagree with your opinions on everything. If I was being 100% honest I don't think I'd have the balls to do it. I've had personally, and witnessed firsthand, more than a few instances of doing the right thing and correcting someone, only to have that POS go over my and others heads resulting in the corrector being publicly corrected. Can only get burned so many times ...

What would have been your approach had the Airmen been of a different gender? Or of a different ethnic background?

Very good question!

Different gender, no way. My hands would have been tied and that Airman would have suffered horribly in the realm of likely NJP unless the Airman straightened up. Of course, if they'd bring back CC, this would not be an issue either.

On race, it wouldn't make a bit of difference. If it were me and 2 white Airmen, me and 2 black Airmen, me and 2 Asian Airmen, 2 Hispanic Airmen or any mix of the bunch - wouldn't really matter. An Airman is an Airman regardless of race, religion, color, etc., etc. ....yes, this applies to gender too....still, I see it like this. I have no problem w/closed door counselings with male Airmen, even if they are directive in approach. Still, I always ask females if they want a witness. I wouldn't go inspect a females living quarters alone either.

[CMSBROWN]

I'm not sure where I fall on this one anymore. I usually disagree with your opinions on everything. If I was being 100% honest I don't think I'd have the balls to do it. I've had personally, and witnessed firsthand, more than a few instances of doing the right thing and correcting someone, only to have that POS go over my and others heads resulting in the corrector being publicly corrected. Can only get burned so many times ...

That is where your upper leadership has failed you! IF you are doing the right thing and by the letter of the AFI...you should never be ridiculed. If you are ridiculed and you are right...I would pull out the AFI and show your upper leadership that they are wrong and if that AFI has the UCMJ clause in it like most do...then point that out to them as well. That usually fixes everything. :D

[CMSBROWN]

Very good question!

Different gender, no way. My hands would have been tied and that Airman would have suffered horribly in the realm of likely NJP unless the Airman straightened up. Of course, if they'd bring back CC, this would not be an issue either.

On race, it wouldn't make a bit of difference. If it were me and 2 white Airmen, me and 2 black Airmen, me and 2 Asian Airmen, 2 Hispanic Airmen or any mix of the bunch - wouldn't really matter. An Airman is an Airman regardless of race, religion, color, etc., etc. ....yes, this applies to gender too....still, I see it like this. I have no problem w/closed door counselings with male Airmen, even if they are directive in approach. Still, I always ask females if they want a witness. I wouldn't go inspect a females living quarters alone either.

True that....airman is an airman is an airman until it comes to private couseling or inspection of the opposite gender. ALWAYS have a witness! ALWAYS! Never put yourself in a postion with the opposite gender to be set up for anything. Even if you have known them for years....even the perception by others can get you in a bind.

As for if the situation were with females, I would get two of my sharpest female airmen preferably NCO's and have them provide the corrective guidance needed. I would outline the unfavorable behavior, the solution and the final outcome and would send them on their way to make it happen.

[CMSBROWN]

[QUOTE=Measure Man;173075
I once walked into one of our shops...and saw an Airman standing in the corner...facing the corner. I asked him what the hell he was doing...he said, "MSgt Bossman told me to stand in the corner because I made a smart ass remark during roll call."

Uhm...okay...the guy probably wouldn't make another smart-ass remark during roll call...but MSgt Bossman (not his real name) exceeded his authority. When I asked him...he said "Amn Smartass is being punished for being disrespectful"....at which point...of course, I had to ask MSgt Bossman if he understood that as an enlisted man he had ZERO authority to punish an Airman. He didn't know that.... [/QUOTE]

That is absolutely correct! We have zero authority to PUNISH an airman.
BUT WE HAVE THE GOD DAMNED AUTHORITY TO MAKE CORRECTIVE ACTION! And from reading all of your posts on this Measure...I have deduced that your leadership style is one that coddles the airman and you sucker punch any NCO that does not MEASURE up to your way of correcting or leading an airman. The majority of your posts say I wouldnt have done that...that was wrong what you did, etc. Perhaps maybe instead of just leaving us with your comments perhaps you give examples of what you would have done or would do. And refering them to mental health does not prove your leadership worth it pawns it off on someone else unless the airman is a threat to himself or others....be a stinky boy or girl is not worthy of mental health...that is worthy of corrective action by the supervisor/NCO.

Would I have put that airman in a corner? ABSOLUTLEY NOT! But I do commend that NCO for trying to take control of the situation and correct that smart ass airman. Not correcting him would give all the other airman in the formation the inclination that they could do the same and disrespect the NCO and the formation.Would I have talking corrective action IMMEDIATELY! You bet your ace I would have. I would have told airman smartass to come to the front of the formation. I would have handed him the briefing documents and told him to brief since he cant keep his mouth shut during formation. And that this formation is for his benefit and not mine. The formation is to pass on vital information to him and his fellow airman so that they can conduct themselves in a manner acceptable to commander, myself and the Air Force. Do you understand airman. At that time not only did I cousel airman smartass but I also counseled everyone in the formation. I asserted corrective action to everyone in that formation so anyone with the inclenation of behaving like airman smartass they it was squashed. After returning airman smartass back to formation I would tell his supervisor to follow up on airman smartass.

I prefer to take corrective action as opposed to non-judicial punishment. There are times where a good airman only needs corrective action and follow up. And there are times when an airman needs there pee-pee knocked in the dirt with extra corrective action. I will use an ART 15 as the last resort of an airman that cannot and refuses to correct themselves with leadership help. When I assert corrective action and if an airman balks at it. I look at them and I say...you have one or tow choices here...you can take the corrective action and do what you need to straighten yourself out or we take route 2 and you stand tall infront of the commander for your ART 15. And almost everytime they chose the corrective action, and I salvage a career.

Now dont get me wrong there are times were there is no corrective action and we go straight for ART 15...ex...DUI, theft, assault, etc. But when it comes to discipline and behavioral times with an airman I will take corrective action or my NCO's will.

[Rastaman]

It's all about situational leadership--until you're in that particular situation with that particular Airman--who knows what is the best tactic or approach? I'm no fan of Combat Correspondent but I can understand why he did what he did--he sized up the situation and made a judgement call and he was successful. Kudos to him. However, I wouldn't dismiss Measure Man's concerns either. If the person needs an "ass-kicking" and you feel fairly certain they will respond positively--go for it! On the other hand if you know that it's time for Airman Suzy or Johnny to become Mr or Ms then start that paperwork. There is no one correct way to lead--even with the same individual you may have to vary from a quiet word in private to ass-chewing to paperwork to get your point across.

[fufu]

I don't think my course of action was missing its target at all...there was a problem that needed swift action and a good kick-in-the-butt fixing - its done now. Its having the balls early (I was a SSgt at the time) which makes or brakes a Staff NCO and future Senior NCO. As I stated many times my goal is to make Chief, hopefully become a Command Chief and possibly even be the "top dog."


That explains everything......

[CMSBROWN]

That explains everything......


You care to elaborate?

[VFFSSGT]

That is absolutely correct! We have zero authority to PUNISH an airman.



Which, I believe is another problem in itself... Heard it a million of times...what are you going to do about it or something to the affect... And it takes extremely too much time and effort to give someone the boot and that is if you are lucky enough to get through officers that want to give them a chance because he might turn out okay one day. So, he moves on, PCS'es and all the paperwork is gone essentially and left to start over only to become someone else's problem....and the cycle starts all over again and again and again... Seen various cases of similar events...my most recent favorite panned out until time for reenlistment; was denied reenlistment for failure to conform but then went and joined the AF Reserves…

Not saying we should be able to take stripes (maybe so) but we should be able to do something... Institute CC back on bases, some weekend detail, and humiliation like standing in the corner as mentioned earlier, pushups, etc...

[USMC_8156]

I always thought the AF was very knee jerk in punishing those who screw up. Interesting to hear the experienced viewpoints on this thread. Paperwork, instantly, is what I always thought.

CC, I think you are taking a lot of the Corps into the AF with you, and it doesn't seem to be a very well respected approach. You can't wall to wall counsel or have someone digging a hole outside of the Marines...well, maybe in the Army exculsively in the Infantry and MP's, but that's it. If you are so concerned with picking up by method of ass kicking, why don't you come back to the green side?

[CMSBROWN]

Which, I believe is another problem in itself... Heard it a million of times...what are you going to do about it or something to the affect... And it takes extremely too much time and effort to give someone the boot and that is if you are lucky enough to get through officers that want to give them a chance because he might turn out okay one day. So, he moves on, PCS'es and all the paperwork is gone essentially and left to start over only to become someone else's problem....and the cycle starts all over again and again and again... Seen various cases of similar events...my most recent favorite panned out until time for reenlistment; was denied reenlistment for failure to conform but then went and joined the AF Reserves…

Not saying we should be able to take stripes (maybe so) but we should be able to do something... Institute CC back on bases, some weekend detail, and humiliation like standing in the corner as mentioned earlier, pushups, etc...


All so true....been there many times where the airman out ran the paperwork.

I definately agree with the second para as well. :D

[VFFSSGT]

And we can still call it all "Corrective Action," because we will be correcting their actions with "additional duties" to "re-instill" the discipline concept... :D

[Measure Man]

That is absolutely correct! We have zero authority to PUNISH an airman.
BUT WE HAVE THE GOD DAMNED AUTHORITY TO MAKE CORRECTIVE ACTION! And from reading all of your posts on this Measure...I have deduced that your leadership style is one that coddles the airman and you sucker punch any NCO that does not MEASURE up to your way of correcting or leading an airman.

You have deduced incorrectly. I don't know what your definition of coddling is...but I can't think of anything MORE coddling than bathing someone. Nevertheless, I do have the "unorthodox method" of treating adults like adults with adult expectations and responsibilities. I am though harder on my NCOs than on the Airmen...and even harder on the SNCOs than on the NCOs. If an NCO is inappropriately punishing an Airman...I am going to deal with that NCO, not commend him...I'm almost not that concerned with the Airman's issue at that point. If I commend that NCO and take action on the Airman myself...well, you can expect the NCOs behavior to continue and probably increase.

I will say though...that for the last 8 years or so, my direct subordinates have been SNCOs mostly...and NCOs for the prior 8 years or so prior to that, at least. So, correcting that NCO is no less important...and probably more important than correcting the Airman. If the Airman's discrepancy is relatively minor...I will let the NCO handle it...if I see him handling it inappropriately, I would be doing a disservice not to correct him...particularly if he is doing something blatantly illegal. So, yes, an NCO exceeding his authority does not MEASURE up to my standards of leadership...if you would commend that sort of thing...you might just be "coddling your NCOs"

Why is it you are willing to correct Airmen, but not NCOs for inappropriately leading them?

Yes, I have had Airmen at attention in front of my desk for good old fashioned ass-chewing...but it isn't my usual style...

I've found one of the most effective phrases to start out any counseling session...is to say "look, you are a grown man, so I'm going to be direct with you..." Actually, some of the younger 18-19 year old Airmen didn't realize that they are looked at as grown men...they sort of go by the old saying we used to have as Airmen "It is my job to get away with as much as possible and my supervisors job to catch me"...once you show them you expect them to act like adults and professionals, more often than not, they get it...


The majority of your posts say I wouldnt have done that...that was wrong what you did, etc. Perhaps maybe instead of just leaving us with your comments perhaps you give examples of what you would have done or would do.

I doubt you've really read the majority of my posts...but they are not short of opinion, my personal take and examples....but okay...

I can think of maybe three times in my career where I had Airmen with a serious hygiene problem...two were related to basic showering type stuff...both of those were handled by sitting the Airmen down with an adult conversation.

The third was related to diet and was an actual medical issue...he more or less had some serious halitosis and sort a reeking smell coming out of his pores...

Had plenty of "messy room" types...and that is usually just a matter of keep sending them back until they get it right...No, I'm not going to clean their room for them. If talking to the Airmen about showering really didn't help...perhaps that would be a better method...keep sending them back until they get it right, they'll figure it out, unless you are in the Special Ed Command....if they can read a TO, they can read the directions on the shampoo bottle.


And refering them to mental health does not prove your leadership worth it pawns it off on someone else unless the airman is a threat to himself or others....be a stinky boy or girl is not worthy of mental health...that is worthy of corrective action by the supervisor/NCO.

...actually it can be a symptom of depression or other mental health disorders...of course...taking one factor of the whole picture...you can't give a complete answer. I would find it odd that a direct conversation would not correct such a problem...I especially find it odd...that as a SSgt, he must've had what? 6,8, 10 Airmen at the most? That 2 of those would have such a serious problem at the same time?...when between the 50 or so years of experience between the two of us...and 1000s of Airmen...neither of us have seen the need to shower with a subordinate....don't those statistics strike you as odd?

Well...okay, not mine so much...cuz I would probably never do that...but, I don't care for my Airmen as much as you guys...LOL


Would I have put that airman in a corner? ABSOLUTLEY NOT! But I do commend that NCO for trying to take control of the situation and correct that smart ass airman.

Well...let's just say it wasn't the first time of that type of behavior for that MSgt. There are ways to handle that...and I have no problem with your method of having the Airman brief at Roll Call...that is training.

So...you would correct the Airman...but commend (coddle) the NCO for violating the UCMJ...mixed message?

You ABSOLUTELY WOULD NOT do that yourself, but commend an NCO for doing it...I don't understand that, please explain?

If you do not correct that NCO IMMEDIATELY...you may be guilty of collusion...and oh, let's say that Airman happened to mention to the commander that he was illegally punished by an NCO...and his Chief commended the NCO for it...



Not correcting him would give all the other airman in the formation the inclination that they could do the same and disrespect the NCO and the formation.Would I have talking corrective action IMMEDIATELY! You bet your ace I would have.

...absolutely...I would have probably immediately told the Airman to come to the office after roll call...and depending on his history would depend where it goes from there. If he was a super-star, just a talking to probably would have done it...if he was a repeat offender, maybe paperwork, maybe he would be giving the Roll Call the next week...or giving a training class.

This also let's everyone else know that the conduct was not tolerated...but, that's just me.


I would have told airman smartass to come to the front of the formation. I would have handed him the briefing documents and told him to brief since he cant keep his mouth shut during formation. And that this formation is for his benefit and not mine. The formation is to pass on vital information to him and his fellow airman so that they can conduct themselves in a manner acceptable to commander, myself and the Air Force. Do you understand airman. At that time not only did I cousel airman smartass but I also counseled everyone in the formation. I asserted corrective action to everyone in that formation so anyone with the inclenation of behaving like airman smartass they it was squashed. After returning airman smartass back to formation I would tell his supervisor to follow up on airman smartass.

...as I said...there are things I don't have a problem with...and things I do. This method is not one I have a problem with.

I will say though...that our roll calls...aren't "formations" so to speak...but more or less the shop sitting at tables in the training room while we go over any notes...and work assignments....not that it matters, but probably a bit more free flowing and informal than what you are picturing.


I prefer to take corrective action as opposed to non-judicial punishment. There are times where a good airman only needs corrective action and follow up. And there are times when an airman needs there pee-pee knocked in the dirt with extra corrective action. I will use an ART 15 as the last resort of an airman that cannot and refuses to correct themselves with leadership help. When I assert corrective action and if an airman balks at it. I look at them and I say...you have one or tow choices here...you can take the corrective action and do what you need to straighten yourself out or we take route 2 and you stand tall infront of the commander for your ART 15. And almost everytime they chose the corrective action, and I salvage a career.

Now dont get me wrong there are times were there is no corrective action and we go straight for ART 15...ex...DUI, theft, assault, etc. But when it comes to discipline and behavioral times with an airman I will take corrective action or my NCO's will.

...oh, I've done far more corrective actions personally than asking the commander to Art 15, for sure. Though I have taken Airmen straight to Art 15 with no prior admin actions if the offense was serious enough...i.e. an NCO cheating on his PT test (his Airman agreed to write down a run time for him without him running)...yes, the Airman also received corrective action and was not "coddled." Also, did one for an Airman blantantly blowing off a SNCO order to return to the duty section...even had the gall to ask "what will happen if I don't come back?"

Both of them enduring a good long ass chewing and loss of position...before the commander got his crack at them.

I will also say that I've been pretty darn successful, if I do say so myself. I've had more than a few Airmen look me up years later and thank me for the mentorship I've provided...for setting them on the right path...and I've had a few tell me that they'll never forget that I always respected them as people, though I had a job to do as a supervisor.

Well...I am also a believer that each leader needs to develop his/her own leadership style...what works for my style and personality...may not work for you. I've never been one to yell, scream, holler, spit or kick dirt...I've found treating people like adults and speaking in calm stern voice to be far more effective...and results in an Airman growing personally...treating themselves like adults...and being better overall...but that's just me. But, I'm also not a cop...but grew up in a highly technical, high production work environment that demands self-motivated people that can work alone, think on their own, problem solve without an NCO looking over their shoulder...

[CMSBROWN]

You have deduced incorrectly. But, I do have the "unorthodox method" of treat adults like adults with adult expectations and responsibilities.

I will say though...that for the last 8 years or so, my direct subordinates have been SNCOs mostly...and NCOs for the prior 8 years or so prior to that, at least. So, correcting that NCO is no less important...and probably more important than correcting the Airman. If the Airman's discrepancy is relatively minor...I will let the NCO handle it...if I see him handling it inappropriately, I would be doing a disservice not to correct him...particularly if he is doing something blatantly illegal. So, yes, an NCO exceeding his authority does not MEASURE up to my standards of leadership...if you would commend that sort of thing...you might just be "coddling your NCOs"

Negative...I said I commend him for taking action to correct that airman...but I do not recall any where in the MCM that making someone stand facing a corner making it anymore illegal to sing the Air Force song since they like to run their mouth during a briefing.

Why is it you are willing to correct Airmen, but not NCOs for inappropriately leading them?

I will be the first to correct an NCO....did it many times will do it many more...but honestly...if that NCO is not beating the dog snot out of that airman who disrepected him/her while conducting a briefing and decideds to make them do 20 push ups...(hey a novel idea to help with the PT Test failures...LOL!) I really could give rats rump. The airman steps out of line they need to be directed back across it. Point Blank...you can do it with a hug and a firm word or you can do it will in a way that the airmen who dont like the hug and firm word. I would rather an NCO take corrective action then turn a blind eye. That is part of the problem in the Air Force. To many NCOs turning a blind eye.

Yes, I have had Airmen at attention in front of my desk for good old fashioned ass-chewing...but it isn't my usual style... I've found one of the most effective phrases to start out any counseling session...is to say "look, you are a grown man, so I'm going to be direct with you..." Actually, some of the younger 18-19 year old Airmen didn't realize that they are looked at as grown men...they sort of go by the old saying we used to have as Airmen "It is my job to get away with as much as possible and my supervisors job to catch me"

Glad that approach works for you...but the last time I check when you raise your had to enlist you were a GROWN MAN and shoudl not have to be reminded of it. My first words out of my mouth when they are in my office is....you need to pull your head out of your fourth point of contact....and if they give me the deer in teh headlight look I tell them....they need to pull their head out of their ass.

I doubt you've really read the majority of my posts...but they are not short of opinion, my personal take and examples....but okay...

I have read the ones on here. :) And a few others which I did like. :)

I can think of maybe three times in my career where I had Airmen with a serious hygiene problem...two were related to basic showering type stuff...both of those were handled by sitting the Airmen down with an adult conversation.

The third was related to diet and was an actual medical issue...he more or less had some serious halitosis and sort a reeking smell coming out of his pores...

Had plenty of "messy room" types...and that is usually just a matter of keep sending them back until they get it right...No, I'm not going to clean their room for them. If talking to the Airmen about showering really didn't help...perhaps that would be a better method...keep sending them back until they get it right, they'll figure it out, unless you are in the Special Ed Command....if they can read a TO, they can read the directions on the shampoo bottle.

True that...and GROWN MEN/Women should not have to be reminded to wash their butts either.

...actually it can be a symptom of depression or other mental health disorders...of course...taking one factor of the whole picture...you can't give a complete answer. I would find it odd that a direct conversation would not correct such a problem...I especially find it odd...that as a SSgt, he must've had what? 6,8, 10 Airmen at the most? That 2 of those would have such a serious problem at the same time?...when between the 50 or so years of experience between the two of us...and 1000s of Airmen...neither of us have seen the need to shower with a subordinate....don't those statistics strike you as odd?

Your right...I never got in the shower...I had privates or airman teach them how do wash their butts...them seeing the privates and airman with scrub brushes and powdered soap in their hands they got the hint quick.

Well...okay, not mine so much...cuz I would probably never do that...but, I don't care for my Airmen as much as you guys...LOL

You do care but in your own gentle way. :)

Well...let's just say it wasn't the first time of that type of behavior for that MSgt. There are ways to handle that...and I have no problem with your method of having the Airman brief at Roll Call...that is training.

So...you would correct the Airman...but commend (coddle) the NCO for violating the UCMJ...mixed message?

Again...nothing in the UCMJ or MCM say having a airman face a wall or a corner...but then I am an old timer and maybe they slipped it in on me....LOL!

...absolutely...I would have probably immediately told the Airman to come to the office after roll call...and depending on his history would depend where it goes from there. If he was a super-star, just a talking to probably would have done it...if he was a repeat offender, maybe paperwork, maybe he would be giving the Roll Call the next week...or giving a training class.

I tend to let the NCO/Supervisor who was embarrased by his airman's action handle it after I interject myself...works great...never happens again.

This also let's everyone else know that the conduct was not tolerated...but, that's just me.

...as I said...there are things I don't have a problem with...and things I do. This method is not one I have a problem with.

I will say though...that our roll calls...aren't "formations" so to speak...but more or less the shop sitting at tables in the training room while we go over any notes...and work assignments....not that it matters, but probably a bit more free flowing and informal than what you are picturing.

Right on....it doesnt matter...if it is a formation at rest position or a sitting a tables....when and NCO or O is providing information to the masses they need to have courtesy to keep quiet until the briefer asks if there are any questions or input...

...oh, I've done far more corrective actions personally than asking the commander to Art 15, for sure. Though I have taken Airmen straight to Art 15 with no prior admin actions if the offense was serious enough...i.e. an NCO cheating on his PT test (his Airman agreed to write down a run time for him without him running)...yes, the Airman also received corrective action and was not "coddled." Also, did one for an Airman blantantly blowing off a SNCO order to return to the duty section...even had the gall to ask "what will happen if I don't come back?"

Right on! On target with me!

Both of them enduring a good long ass chewing and loss of position...before the commander got his crack at them.

I tend to keep the Commander out of NCO stuff until such paperwork or ART 15 is needed for his approval.

I will also say that I've been pretty darn successful, if I do say so myself. I've had more than a few Airmen look me up years later and thank me for the mentorship I've provided...for setting them on the right path...and I've had a few tell me that they'll never forget that I always respected them as people, though I had a job to do as a supervisor.

Outstanding! And myself as well...I use the leadership style that adheres to the situation....some need more emphasis and some don't.....but overall you need to make your NCO's who are responsible for those airman responsible for the airmans action....Period. You dont and you fail the airman.

Well...I am also a believer that each leader needs to develop his/her own leadership style...what works for my style and personality...may not work for you. I've never been one to yell, scream, holler, spit or kick dirt...I've found treating people like adults and speaking in calm stern voice to be far more effective...and results in an Airman growing personally...treating themselves like adults...and being better overall...but that's just me. But, I'm also not a cop...but grew up in a highly technical, high production work environment that demands self-motivated people that can work alone, think on their own, problem solve without an NCO looking over their shoulder...

What and Cops dont?

Come on Measure....I thought we were having great dialog until the last sentence..LMAO!

I bet your AFSC does not have the authority to take a persons life in the protection of resources or personnel...I will give you a mulligan on that comment. :D

[Combat correspondent]

I always thought the AF was very knee jerk in punishing those who screw up. Interesting to hear the experienced viewpoints on this thread. Paperwork, instantly, is what I always thought.

CC, I think you are taking a lot of the Corps into the AF with you, and it doesn't seem to be a very well respected approach. You can't wall to wall counsel or have someone digging a hole outside of the Marines...well, maybe in the Army exculsively in the Infantry and MP's, but that's it. If you are so concerned with picking up by method of ass kicking, why don't you come back to the green side?

They --- excuse me, we are still pretty knee jerky. I suppose I said "they" initially because I am really opposed to the knee jerk pansy-ass laissez-faire leadership style that literally plagues the Air Force. I am still in the we/they mindset on that as I refuse to join their boys club - this is a branch of military service, after all. Is the Air Force not the world's most powerful and technically advanced Air and Space Expeditionary Force?

Speaking of pansy-ass leadership, I had another fun run in while I was at the MPF (where the admin and monitors work) today. Here's what happened:

There I stood, reading the base newspaper and waiting for my turn at the counter. I looked up and saw 2 Airmen (an Airman and an Airman 1st Class) standing and talking in the hallway. I noticed they both had their covers on and one seemed to be fishing for something in his pocket. By AF instruction, covers are not to be worn in doors except under certain circumstances and Airmen should not stand with their hands in their pockets. This seemed to go on for a while. I looked over and there was an AF Staff Sergeant sitting directly in front of them. In the next row back was an Army Sgt. 1st Class and his wife. A Chief was in the row behind them. There were also a number of Air Force officers sitting in the last row.

Finally, I had enough and asked "Hey, are you 2 carrying fire arms?"

"No," they replied.

"You don't have a weapon on your person right now," I reconfirmed.

"No," they said.

"Then take your freakin' cover off - you are in a building for God's sake!" I bellowed. "And, get your hands out of your pockets!"

They did as they were told and went to mingle somewhere else - a normal reaction for an E-2 and E-3. Then, I looked over at the Staff Sergeant and he glared at me.

So, I then went over to him and said, "Hey there Staff Sergeant, do you have something on your mind?"

He said no. I said, "Good, because I do."

"Why did you just sit there and watch those 2 Airmen behave that way?" I said.

"There is a slew of officers in the back, maybe you thought it was an officers job to correct these junior enlisted," I continued. "I damn sure hope that Chief NEVER has to correct an Airman while an NCO is present! Or maybe the Soldier back there should have done it! How embarrassing would that be?" I said.

"Next time you see someone behaving in violation, you need to step up and be an NCO," I bellowed.

He said he understood and was quite embarrassed, I think.

Normally I would not call out an NCO in front of a Chief, Officers and certainly not a Sister Servicemember. But really, this guy was more a deuche bag than the Airmen.

Comments on that?

Here comes the band wagon saying I was wrong........

[BigBaze]

They --- excuse me, we are still pretty knee jerky. I suppose I said "they" initially because I am really opposed to the knee jerk pansy-ass laissez-faire leadership style that literally plagues the Air Force. I am still in the we/they mindset on that as I refuse to join their boys club - this is a branch of military service, after all. Is the Air Force not the world's most powerful and technically advanced Air and Space Expeditionary Force?

Speaking of pansy-ass leadership, I had another fun run in while I was at the MPF (where the admin and monitors work) today. Here's what happened:

There I stood, reading the base newspaper and waiting for my turn at the counter. I looked up and saw 2 Airmen (an Airman and an Airman 1st Class) standing and talking in the hallway. I noticed they both had their covers on and one seemed to be fishing for something in his pocket. By AF instruction, covers are not to be worn in doors except under certain circumstances and Airmen should not stand with their hands in their pockets. This seemed to go on for a while. I looked over and there was an AF Staff Sergeant sitting directly in front of them. In the next row back was an Army Sgt. 1st Class and his wife. A Chief was in the row behind them. There were also a number of Air Force officers sitting in the last row.

Finally, I had enough and asked "Hey, are you 2 carrying fire arms?"

"No," they replied.

"You don't have a weapon on your person right now," I reconfirmed.

"No," they said.

"Then take your freakin' cover off - you are in a building for God's sake!" I bellowed. "And, get your hands out of your pockets!"

They did as they were told and went to mingle somewhere else - a normal reaction for an E-2 and E-3. Then, I looked over at the Staff Sergeant and he glared at me.

So, I then went over to him and said, "Hey there Staff Sergeant, do you have something on your mind?"

He said no. I said, "Good, because I do."

"Why did you just sit there and watch those 2 Airmen behave that way?" I said.

"There is a slew of officers in the back, maybe you thought it was an officers job to correct these junior enlisted," I continued. "I damn sure hope that Chief NEVER has to correct an Airman while an NCO is present! Or maybe the Soldier back there should have done it! How embarrassing would that be?" I said.

"Next time you see someone behaving in violation, you need to step up and be an NCO," I bellowed.

He said he understood and was quite embarrassed, I think.

Normally I would not call out an NCO in front of a Chief, Officers and certainly not a Sister Servicemember. But really, this guy was more a deuche bag than the Airmen.

Comments on that?

Here comes the band wagon saying I was wrong........


Yes, pull them aside and tell them to take their hats off, there is no need to be yelling at them, you'd think they were walking around smoking dope with their hats on backwards by the way you reacted. You will actually be surprised how much of a better result you will get from someone by acting like a professional and asking in a professional manner, since you seem to be all about correcting our terrible young airmen and us undisciplined and incompetent NCO's with your amazing intellect and ethics. I don't know what rank you are, but I have never in my career had anyone, not a Chief, or senior officer "bellow" at me for anything. There are ways to handle problems and that ain't one of them. I guess I'll just keep on waiting for that emergency to ride over the horizon.

[Your_Name_Here]

They --- excuse me, we are still pretty knee jerky. I suppose I said "they" initially because I am really opposed to the knee jerk pansy-ass laissez-faire leadership style that literally plagues the Air Force. I am still in the we/they mindset on that as I refuse to join their boys club - this is a branch of military service, after all. Is the Air Force not the world's most powerful and technically advanced Air and Space Expeditionary Force?

Speaking of pansy-ass leadership, I had another fun run in while I was at the MPF (where the admin and monitors work) today. Here's what happened:

There I stood, reading the base newspaper and waiting for my turn at the counter. I looked up and saw 2 Airmen (an Airman and an Airman 1st Class) standing and talking in the hallway. I noticed they both had their covers on and one seemed to be fishing for something in his pocket. By AF instruction, covers are not to be worn in doors except under certain circumstances and Airmen should not stand with their hands in their pockets. This seemed to go on for a while. I looked over and there was an AF Staff Sergeant sitting directly in front of them. In the next row back was an Army Sgt. 1st Class and his wife. A Chief was in the row behind them. There were also a number of Air Force officers sitting in the last row.

Finally, I had enough and asked "Hey, are you 2 carrying fire arms?"

"No," they replied.

"You don't have a weapon on your person right now," I reconfirmed.

"No," they said.

"Then take your freakin' cover off - you are in a building for God's sake!" I bellowed. "And, get your hands out of your pockets!"

They did as they were told and went to mingle somewhere else - a normal reaction for an E-2 and E-3. Then, I looked over at the Staff Sergeant and he glared at me.

So, I then went over to him and said, "Hey there Staff Sergeant, do you have something on your mind?"

He said no. I said, "Good, because I do."

"Why did you just sit there and watch those 2 Airmen behave that way?" I said.

"There is a slew of officers in the back, maybe you thought it was an officers job to correct these junior enlisted," I continued. "I damn sure hope that Chief NEVER has to correct an Airman while an NCO is present! Or maybe the Soldier back there should have done it! How embarrassing would that be?" I said.

"Next time you see someone behaving in violation, you need to step up and be an NCO," I bellowed.

He said he understood and was quite embarrassed, I think.

Normally I would not call out an NCO in front of a Chief, Officers and certainly not a Sister Servicemember. But really, this guy was more a deuche bag than the Airmen.

Comments on that?

Here comes the band wagon saying I was wrong........

Perhaps you would settle for "half-wrong"...

I'll sum it up, and in line w/BigBaze's post:

Good catch (on original infractions), bad approach (the way you are saying you handled it).

Best believe that if you tried flexing on someone in public like this in my presence, I would wait until you were done, and then take you aside to point out the above.

Bellowing and bluster have their place, but IMO, the worst ass-chewing I have ever witnessed involved my CC handing a colleague of mine her head in a closed-door staff meeting; CC was vicious in tone and delivery, but never raised his voice. We ALL felt like we were 2" tall--and we weren't even the direct recipient! Flying off the handle willy-nilly simply demonstrates a lack of self-control 9 times out of 10.

[Measure Man]

I will be the first to correct an NCO....did it many times will do it many more...but honestly...if that NCO is not beating the dog snot out of that airman who disrepected him/her while conducting a briefing and decideds to make them do 20 push ups...(hey a novel idea to help with the PT Test failures...LOL!) I really could give rats rump. The airman steps out of line they need to be directed back across it. Point Blank...you can do it with a hug and a firm word or you can do it will in a way that the airmen who dont like the hug and firm word. I would rather an NCO take corrective action then turn a blind eye. That is part of the problem in the Air Force. To many NCOs turning a blind eye.

I never encouraged anyone to take a blind eye, that's for sure.

..and I'll also say...I once had a SSgt tell me that hearing/seeing me sternly tell him "I'm losing confidence in you..." hurt more than any of the "bellowing" he ever got...


Come on Measure....I thought we were having great dialog until the last sentence..LMAO!

I bet your AFSC does not have the authority to take a persons life in the protection of resources or personnel...I will give you a mulligan on that comment. :D

I got nothing against cops...and apologize if I've offended you..but the cop environment tends to be different than the maintenance environment.

The environment in maintenance...is less split second decision than cops maybe....

If something doesn't look right...our Airmen have the authority to order an NCO to "Knock it off"...sort of like a "Go around" in ops...if an NCO bellows at Airmen while working, unsafe acts tend to happen and people get hurt.

So, yeah...sorry about the cop comment...and no, we try NOT to take anyone's life directly.

Maybe I'm reading more into his posts and categorizing him with others of "his type" I've known...who seem to sort of get off on correcting people in a loud and ostentatious manner...and telling all his buddies and supervisors about what a bad ass old schooler he is...(exactly how did the showering incident happen to come up in conversation with his commander and first shirt??...if it was effectively handled at his level, why would the CC and 1SG need to know about it?)...but, I don't know him...I do have an image of him...and he reminds me of certain people...so I'm probably just filling in the blanks with those other people I did know. Personally, I don't know what the hell old school he is talking about...not since I've been in in '83, and I'm pretty sure the Vietnam era wasn't all that disciplined either. As I mentioned before...give me a guy I can put on an MRT and send to an undeveloped airfield in Africa to fix an aircraft over a guy that'll "Do anything you tell me to Drill Sargeeent"

So tell ya what...you can have Combat Correspondent and a draft pick to be named later...and I'll take Big Baze and Your Name Here...(now you guys know how assignments are made...LOL)

[SSgtRenegade]

So, I then went over to him and said, "Hey there Staff Sergeant, do you have something on your mind?"

He said no. I said, "Good, because I do."

"Why did you just sit there and watch those 2 Airmen behave that way?" I said.

"There is a slew of officers in the back, maybe you thought it was an officers job to correct these junior enlisted," I continued. "I damn sure hope that Chief NEVER has to correct an Airman while an NCO is present! Or maybe the Soldier back there should have done it! How embarrassing would that be?" I said.

"Next time you see someone behaving in violation, you need to step up and be an NCO," I bellowed.

He said he understood and was quite embarrassed, I think.

Normally I would not call out an NCO in front of a Chief, Officers and certainly not a Sister Servicemember. But really, this guy was more a deuche bag than the Airmen.

Comments on that?

Here comes the band wagon saying I was wrong........

C.C. I've read several of your posts and I have say its just to bad we don't all live up to your delusions. You do realize that one day you are going to try that on the wrong person and end up put in your place, on the floor bleeding.

[VFFSSGT]

C.C. I've read several of your posts and I have say its just to bad we don't all live up to your delusions. You do realize that one day you are going to try that on the wrong person and end up put in your place, on the floor bleeding.

Or more likely, that is another issue leading to problems in the Air Force...NCO's not addressing and correcting problems... He should have called the guy out and if more people were called out we would not have so many failures in the Air Force.

I don't always agree with CC but he is in the right for calling someone out. And don't give me that, he shouldn't have done it in front of someone else. No one likes it but sometimes and more times than not it should be and needs to be.

[CMSBROWN]

I never encouraged anyone to take a blind eye, that's for sure.

..and I'll also say...I once had a SSgt tell me that hearing/seeing me sternly tell him "I'm losing confidence in you..." hurt more than any of the "bellowing" he ever got...

I got nothing against cops...and apologize if I've offended you..but the cop environment tends to be different than the maintenance environment.

The environment in maintenance...is less split second decision than cops maybe....

If something doesn't look right...our Airmen have the authority to order an NCO to "Knock it off"...sort of like a "Go around" in ops...if an NCO bellows at Airmen while working, unsafe acts tend to happen and people get hurt.

So, yeah...sorry about the cop comment...and no, we try NOT to take anyone's life directly.

Maybe I'm reading more into his posts and categorizing him with others of "his type" I've known...who seem to sort of get off on correcting people in a loud and ostentatious manner...and telling all his buddies and supervisors about what a bad ass old schooler he is...(exactly how did the showering incident happen to come up in conversation with his commander and first shirt??...if it was effectively handled at his level, why would the CC and 1SG need to know about it?)...but, I don't know him...I do have an image of him...and he reminds me of certain people...so I'm probably just filling in the blanks with those other people I did know. Personally, I don't know what the hell old school he is talking about...not since I've been in in '83, and I'm pretty sure the Vietnam era wasn't all that disciplined either. As I mentioned before...give me a guy I can put on an MRT and send to an undeveloped airfield in Africa to fix an aircraft over a guy that'll "Do anything you tell me to Drill Sargeeent"

So tell ya what...you can have Combat Correspondent and a draft pick to be named later...and I'll take Big Baze and Your Name Here...(now you guys know how assignments are made...LOL)


No offense taken Measure.....Hey lets walk over to my humidor and pick us out a cigar, light it up... get us 3 fingers of scotch and talk about the good old days.

How bout it? :D

[Measure Man]

No offense taken Measure.....Hey lets walk over to my humidor and pick us out a cigar, light it up... get us 3 fingers of scotch and talk about the good old days.

How bout it? :D

Now you're talking my language...no doubt we could solve all the world's problems!

[CMSBROWN]

Or more likely, that is another issue leading to problems in the Air Force...NCO's not addressing and correcting problems... He should have called the guy out and if more people were called out we would not have so many failures in the Air Force.

I don't always agree with CC but he is in the right for calling someone out. And don't give me that, he shouldn't have done it in front of someone else. No one likes it but sometimes and more times than not it should be and needs to be.

As I said on anther thread...we need to stop worrying about hurting peoples feelings. That is the problem we have in the AF. Alot of people say...you need to talk to me like an adult...like a person...not like a kid....well you know the rules, the regulations, the policies, the instructions....why don't you adhere to them like an adult....a grown person and I would not even be having this conversation with you.

We have personnel in the AF that want to adhere to what they feel like adhering to...point blank. This all boils down to accountability....if we get back to the SAC mentality and hold everyone accountable from the top down...the AF would slow get back to being run how it needs to be run.

All my opinion! :D

Here is how I would have handled the situation....

Walked in...seen the airman with the headgear on and hands in their pocket....If in close proximity...I would have signaled to get their attention....said in a normal tone of voice...Take your hats off and take your hands out of your pockets...

The SSgt glaring... would have sat down next to him ans said....How are you doing? Why did you let those airman continue to stand in the here with their hands in their pocket and their headgear on? You as an NCO should have corrected them immediately. You knowingly allowing this to happen is part of the problem the AF is in dire straits today. You need to step up as an NCO and enforce the AFI's and policies set by your command. You may not like them, you may not agree with them. It is not your place to pick an choose which one you want to enforce it is your job to enforce them period. You have any questions of me? I would then part saying thank you for your service.

Again that is just me....

[Combat correspondent]

C.C. I've read several of your posts and I have say its just to bad we don't all live up to your delusions. You do realize that one day you are going to try that on the wrong person and end up put in your place, on the floor bleeding.

I doubt it, there killer - but thanks for scaring some sense into me! :rolleyes:

[Combat correspondent]

Or more likely, that is another issue leading to problems in the Air Force...NCO's not addressing and correcting problems... He should have called the guy out and if more people were called out we would not have so many failures in the Air Force.

I don't always agree with CC but he is in the right for calling someone out. And don't give me that, he shouldn't have done it in front of someone else. No one likes it but sometimes and more times than not it should be and needs to be.

yep VFFSSGT - I know you don't always agree with me and that's the beauty of our great nation. Still, I honestly believe embarrassment and good old-fashioned ass chewing really works. Hell, the best ass chewing I got since coming blue was in the middle of 2 lanes of traffic at a gate at Kadena. I was put at attention and a MSgt literally barked down my throat for several minutes. In my peripheral, I saw many people pass in their cars - all gawking! :) I deserved it too!

[goody722]

And speaking of NCO's failing...some of it is because Amn see Staffs and even Techs as personnel with no real authority because SNCO's and Officers are increasingly micro-managing. - VFFSSGT

Sir, the wisdom you have acquired is uncanny.

[VFFSSGT]

I just speak from a wide range of experience, directly and indirectly...

[Combat correspondent]

Keep it up too, killer. Most E5s should be as engaged as you are. Good on you.

[Smeghead]

[B]And speaking of NCO's failing...some of it is because Amn see Staffs and even Techs as personnel with no real authority ...

That's pretty much true. What authority do we have exactly? If we call someone out and they decide to cop an attitude and basically tell to us get bent then what? Take it to their shirt? So we're reduced to telling on them?

I'm not saying I ignore stuff, I seem to have spent most of this winter telling people they need to go buy some gloves if their hands are cold. I haven't had anyone mouth off at me yet, but it's always in the back of mind that it'll happen one day and I have no clue what to do in that situation other than elevate it. How is that authority?

At the same time, I'm kind of a self-admitted asshole when I correct someone, may have something to do with not getting any backtalk. Probably call me every name under sun after I'm gone :)

[Measure Man]

That's pretty much true. What authority do we have exactly? If we call someone out and they decide to cop an attitude and basically tell to us get bent then what? Take it to their shirt? So we're reduced to telling on them?

I'm not saying I ignore stuff, I seem to have spent most of this winter telling people they need to go buy some gloves if their hands are cold. I haven't had anyone mouth off at me yet, but it's always in the back of mind that it'll happen one day and I have no clue what to do in that situation other than elevate it. How is that authority?

At the same time, I'm kind of a self-admitted asshole when I correct someone, may have something to do with not getting any backtalk. Probably call me every name under sun after I'm gone :)

What do you wanna do...beat them up?

Your authority rests in the fact that you are an NCO...an if an Airman disrespects you or does not follow an order you give...it is a crime.

Yes, to exercise that legal authority...you will have to engage the legal system....we still do have due process.

BUT...you going to Shirt or Commander is not that same as a brother/sister telling on each other...you are not "telling on them" so much as reporting a crime that has already been committed...and exercising due process.

[Smeghead]

you going to Shirt or Commander is not that same as a brother/sister telling on each other...you are not "telling on them" so much as reporting a crime that has already been committed...and exercising due process.

But the perception is that that's all we can do, tell their boss.

[Measure Man]

But the perception is that that's all we can do, tell their boss.

What else do you wanna do?

I mean..even if you cuss out a General...all he can do is take legal action...which is what you'd be doing

...not sure what you're looking for here.

[Smeghead]

Well then that's not authority. If an individual can not take direct action then they hold no authority. I hold authority over my Airmen as I write their EPRs so can affect their careers directly. But for someone not in my chain, hell the contracted groundskeepers could report them just the same as I can. So I hold the same authority as ol' John Deere.

I'm not trying to being a jerk here, I really think I'm missing something because this is not gelling in my brain. I'm not saying NCOs should be able to strike Airmen, but there has to be something more than just reporting folks.

[Measure Man]

Well then that's not authority. If an individual can not take direct action then they hold no authority.

They have authority of law...just like...oh say a court order. If a judge issues you a court order...what do think he'll do if you disobey it? He doesn't write your EPR, but you'll fiind the force of law against you if you disobey him...that is the authority you have...backed by the law.


I hold authority over my Airmen as I write their EPRs so can affect their careers directly. But for someone not in my chain, hell the contracted groundskeepers could report them just the same as I can. So I hold the same authority as ol' John Deere.

No...the difference is the Airmen is not legally obligated to follow orders and respect the groundskeeper.

If the groundskeeper asks him to do something...the Airman can say..."No"...and that isn't a crime.

If you ask him to do something...and the says "No"...that is a crime...and at that point, it doesn't even matter so much what you were asking him to do (assuming it was a lawful order).

Yes...the groundskeeper could tell the boss that the guy wasn't wearing a hat...but that is it.

You can initiate charges for the hat...but also for the more serious violation of disrespecting an NCO.


I'm not trying to being a jerk here, I really think I'm missing something because this is not gelling in my brain. I'm not saying NCOs should be able to strike Airmen, but there has to be something more than just reporting folks.

Well...you can put the Airman at attention...but again, what if he refuses and walks away?...

You can place the Airman under arrest...which is just upping the legal ramifications (breaking arrest)...but in the military arrest is moral restraint and not physical restraint....so again, what if he walks away?

I believe to prevent serious crimes...or if you have witnessed a serious crime...you can place an Airman in custody...which would be physical restraint...but I"m a little rusty on that part...so yes, you do have that authority, if I remember correctly, but you probably wouldn't wanna use it for something minor like simple disrespect of an NCO...that would be like if you saw the guy rob a bank, or rape a girl...etc, where you thought he might flee...I'm sure there are some legal implications behind physically restraining someone if you don't have the proper justification. And even then, what if he is stronger, or armed, and you can't physically restrain him?

You could call the SF on your cell phone while you follow the Airman...but really, if you know who the guy is and where he works...you don't need the cops...and unless the guy is violent or belligerent, they are probably just going to make a report and send it to the First Sergeant anyway...just "telling on them" I guess.

[Smeghead]

When I worked for the Royal Air Force, the unit would march through the local town every year. The Flight Sgt leading the formation carried a big baton, like a pair of dividers with chrome tips. He would stop the formation mid step, open up the dividers and measure the pace length. If they were way off, he'd fold it back up and crack the guy across the shins until he had the right pace. Ahhh, memories :)

Thanks MM, that's the first time an NCO's authority has been explained to me so succinctly. Considering I've been in for 12 years, that's pretty sad.

[Combat correspondent]

What do you wanna do...beat them up?

Your authority rests in the fact that you are an NCO...an if an Airman disrespects you or does not follow an order you give...it is a crime.

Yes, to exercise that legal authority...you will have to engage the legal system....we still do have due process.

BUT...you going to Shirt or Commander is not that same as a brother/sister telling on each other...you are not "telling on them" so much as reporting a crime that has already been committed...and exercising due process.

Absolutely - same conversation going on other thread - NCOs don't seem to understand their legal authority - or maybe they don't understand their obligation?

[Combat correspondent]

Well then that's not authority. If an individual can not take direct action then they hold no authority. I hold authority over my Airmen as I write their EPRs so can affect their careers directly. But for someone not in my chain, hell the contracted groundskeepers could report them just the same as I can. So I hold the same authority as ol' John Deere.

I'm not trying to being a jerk here, I really think I'm missing something because this is not gelling in my brain. I'm not saying NCOs should be able to strike Airmen, but there has to be something more than just reporting folks.

Not being a smart @ss here, Smeg - I know by your posts you are a very intelligent individual - smarter than this guy :)

Have you read your rights (and obligations) directly in the UCMJ and MCM? You should! You have a ton of legal authority - and, no, don't strike them as your butt will be grass.

[Combat correspondent]

You could call the SF on your cell phone while you follow the Airman...but really, if you know who the guy is and where he works...you don't need the cops...and unless the guy is violent or belligerent, they are probably just going to make a report and send it to the First Sergeant anyway...just "telling on them" I guess.

Holly Crap! This is the exact same advice I just gave VFFSSGT last night. I figured most people would think "CC is on a rant", "this leather neck doesn't understand the Air Force", and things like that!

I am glad you posted the same advice as, though I may not understand it all and may not be the brightest candle burning on this forum, I do know my legal rights and authority as an NCO. Each and every NCO and supervisor should educate themselves to be sure they #1 execute their office properly, and #2 cover their own @ss.

Thanks!

[Measure Man]

Holly Crap! This is the exact same advice I just gave VFFSSGT last night. I figured most people would think "CC is on a rant", "this leather neck doesn't understand the Air Force", and things like that!

I am glad you posted the same advice as, though I may not understand it all and may not be the brightest candle burning on this forum, I do know my legal rights and authority as an NCO. Each and every NCO and supervisor should educate themselves to be sure they #1 execute their office properly, and #2 cover their own @ss.

Thanks!

Yeah...I don't so much think that was advice...but it is within his authority.

In his case, I'd simply recommend he figure out who the guy is...and work the legal chain of command. As long as you have his identity...and he's not a threat to commit a serious crime, I don't see any reason to bother the SF.

If he won't tell you who he is...you whip out your ID, identify yourself as an NCO and ask him for his ID...even he still won't cough it up and you have no idea who he is...then you've probably got a valid reason to engage SF...afterall, you have an identified intruder on base who, when challenged, refused to identify himself...get a description and call it in.

Generally, I wouldn't recommend an unarmed NCO to try to physically restrain someone unless the situation was very serious...as in VERY serious...not for simple disrespect.

OH..and your authority to apprehend a commissioned officer is very limited...to prevent a serious crime, or to prevent him from fleeing from a serious crime you witnessed...you would want to use that authority very sparingly.

[Smeghead]

Why are these things not taught in PME instead of how to write firewall EPRs and perform a retreat ceremony?

[Measure Man]

Why are these things not taught in PME instead of how to write firewall EPRs and perform a retreat ceremony?

It used to in the PDG (PFE)...not sure if it still is...I don't have one at my desk, and haven't studied the new one...talks about Arrest, Apprehension, Art 92, etc.

But yeah...PME would be a great place to hold a discussion on different scenarios, etc.

[retafmech]

Maybe because in today's "Kinder, more gentle Air Force", actually being an NCO with all the duties and responsibilities that come with that isn't a position of authority anymore but rather someone to be blamed when things go wrong even though you don't have the power to right them when you catch it in the first place.

I retired from the USAF after 21 years when I saw things going down this road. We weren't allowed to scold or discipline airmen (or Junior ranking NCO's) when they didn't comply with standards or act accordingly, but rather had our troop referred to some Lt. who'd been in for one year and was learning the ropes, one who was usually either intimated by the one who committed the infraction, or felt sorry for the guy for being such a putz, or even ones who were on a power-trip because of all the "Authority" they'd been given to make a decision. No way were they listening to a 20+ NCO's who'd been around the block a few hundred times more than themselves.

All this talk of "NCO's need to step up to the plate" is pointless if the establishment doesn't give the NCO's the authority they need to do their job properly. It starts at the top...

[Smeghead]

All this talk of "NCO's need to step up to the plate" is pointless if the establishment doesn't give the NCO's the authority they need to do their job properly. It starts at the top...


A-freakin-men!!

[CMSBROWN]

All this talk of "NCO's need to step up to the plate" is pointless if the establishment doesn't give the NCO's the authority they need to do their job properly. It starts at the top...

BAM! How true...but we also as NCO need to help educate those at the top on what we can do to midigate the visits from our airman and implement a CC's close door policy. LOL!

[retafmech]

BAM! How true...but we also as NCO need to help educate those at the top on what we can do to midigate the visits from our airman and implement a CC's close door policy. LOL!

I agree. That "open door policy" is one of the worst things that ever happened to the USAF.
I remember back when if you went to the CC with an issue, the FIRST thing they asked was "what did your supervisor say?". And 9 times out of 10, they went with exactly what the supervisor said in the first place. Undercutting the NCO authority from the Top down is the reason we have the sort of spoiled airmen we do today. Let the NCO's handle it at the lowest level, and then watch the productivity and performance increase in leaps and bounds...

[Smeghead]

Undercutting the NCO authority from the Top down is the reason we have the sort of spoiled airmen we do today. Let the NCO's handle it at the lowest level, and then watch the productivity and performance increase in leaps and bounds...

You're forgetting that many of those NCOs were those spoiled Airmen who probably don't want to handle it.

[mel44]

I dont know if this is the place but that was the funniest story. J and I laughed unitl we cried. We have done many things in his command but we havent had t bathe anyone yet!! Hoooah to the NCO's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eh_rCExH_4o

[Combat correspondent]

We can still make changes at the NCO (E4-E6) level. We just got to step out and do it! Forget the rest of this noise!

[Combat correspondent]

Funny, most of the other threads on here correspond perfectly with this..... "WE" NCOs gotta follow the CMSAF lead and make this debauchery better!