Submarine Combat Patrol Pin

[anstrpnr]

Should submariners who participated in OIF be allowed to wear the Submarine Combat Patrol pin?

Per the MILPERSMAN 1200-010:

2. Submarine Combat Patrol Insignia.
a. Authorization for the Submarine Combat Patrol Insignia
is given to members regularly assigned to submarine duty on or
after 7 December 1941, who completed one or more wartime combat
patrols designated as successful because
(1) the submarine sank or assisted in sinking at least
one enemy vessel, or
(2) the submarine accomplished a combat mission of
comparable importance.
b. The insignia represents completion of one successful
patrol.
(1) A gold star mounted on the insignia indicates an
additional successful patrol.
(2) A silver star mounted on the insignia indicates a
total of five successful patrols.
NOTE: This insignia may be awarded to personnel prior to
qualification in submarines in time of war.

[Shep]

I thought this was brought up a couple of years ago. My understanding is that this pin was made for submarine on submarine combat. I dont think the people who wrote this criteria up for the pin actually thought that subs would be used in the way they are used today. So no, I dont think submariners should be awarded this pin, I also dont think the sub CO's deserve bronze stars for their submarine missile strikes into Afghanistan.

[forcedj]

But the instruction posted above doesn’t say “sub on sub combat.” Para 2.a (1) says “…sinking at least one enemy vessel” it doesn’t specifically say sinking another submarine. As far as 2.a (2), is launching a missile attack against an enemy land based facility considered a “combat mission of comparable importance”? If it is, or if your boat sinks or assists in sinking an enemy vessel then yes, I think you should be authorized to wear the pin.

Dan

[MPLisa]

Sounds like someone looking for geedunk or a point for a promotion board.

[ty5486]

The submarine combat patrol pin was given to subs that sank ships of any kind mostly during WWII. The pin was also awarded to some submarines that rescued downed pilots etc, but the norm was for an actual sinking of a ship. In general, like I said, it wasn't the combat patrol that got them the pin it was the sinking of a ship. To this day, most of my submarine buddies assume that if they ever sink a ship (even a pirate RHIB) they would stand a chance getting it, but that's about it. I do agree that it seems odd to give the skipper a BSM for shooting tomahawks, but it's not up to me now is it?

[MPLisa]

The rules for a TLAM launch against enemy targets and the awarding of anything should be commensurate with when a surface ship launches TLAM against same. If they don't give a CAR to the ship for a TLAM launch, then no combat pin for the submarines. That brings up a good question: did they give a CAR to submarine crews when they sunk a merchant ship? Or was a CAR awarded (I don't know that they had them back then) to a sub only when it took and returned fire (i.e. depth charging or surface action)

[ty5486]

They did give the CPP to a submarine that sank a merchant ship. In general most subs preferred to target merchants since they directly effected the industry of the Japanese/Germans. That's why when you look at a sub's battle flag there are usually far less military kills listed than civilian. Then of course there's the flag for the Barb which had a train on it...that's another story.

[MPLisa]

Indeed, I know the story. Lots of cool submarine stories. Red Ramage, O'Kane and the rest. Some of the best combat stories are from our submarine forces in WWII. Nimitz defended ADM Doenitz at Nuremburg saying that he too (Nimitz) directed unlimited submarine warfare

[fenway]

my two cents. it seems that "combat" is the operative word. Firing missiles is of combat significance but just floating doesn't seem to qualify. I think the nature of warefare (sub) has changed

[SeaChicken]

It seems to me that it all hinges on the words "comparable importance" as it relates to sinking of a ship.

What was the results of the missile strike? Did you take out a large supply depot or fuel farm equivilant to sinking a merchant ship? Did it take out a parking lot full of fighting vehicles equivalent to maybe a small ship? Then it seems you could make the case for the CPP.

If I remember right, didn't the skppers BSM citations use the word combat in relation to the missile strikes? It seems it would be appropriate to recognize everyones participation in "combat", not just the skippers.

[Cooter754]

My opinion is that you have to consider the original intent of the insignia. This was distributed to men who engaged in active combat that could have resulted in injury/death from hostile fire. While the act of launching missiles is hostile action and inherently dangerous, they really were not exposed or potentially exposed to incoming hostile fire. If naval forces of the foreign power being engaged had the capacity to retaliate during the launch I would say yes, most definitely they qualify. As it stands, they were not really in any more iminent danger than if they were firing test missiles onto a range.

ET2(SS) Michael Hinsley

[topit]

Ok let me think this one out, hmmm load aim and fire a weapon at an enemy target. Check... well that can't be that. Must be the facing danger aspect of combat, maybe I should consult with the Cold war Submarine veterans about their happy carefree times. What is wrong with you people just getting the submarine to the launch area is a dangerious thing. 30 feet from a Nuclear Reactor even less from Nuclear weapons. Not to mention the Bomb, did you ever hear about the O2 Generator?. Have our submariners made it seem that easy? I have seen fires, flooding and thought I was heading for the bottom on more than one occasion. Was on my knees praying (after I had done all I could do of course) my last rites on one occasion. Our nuclear Submariners are the most highly trained and dedicated men I know who face death daily under the sea just as their WWII hero's did. So give them the pin or keep it! It doesn't matter they know who they are and how to do their job. Just don't ever tell me submarines don't face combat, they face life and death every day while underway. You can tell it to the crews of the two Nuclear Submarines lost during the Cold War.

TMCS(SS) USN RET
Bill Whitehead.....USS Pargo (SSN 650)...USS Philadelphia (SSN 690)...Subron Six
GO NAVY BEAT ARMY

[SeaChicken]

My opinion is that you have to consider the original intent of the insignia. This was distributed to men who engaged in active combat that could have resulted in injury/death from hostile fire. While the act of launching missiles is hostile action and inherently dangerous, they really were not exposed or potentially exposed to incoming hostile fire. If naval forces of the foreign power being engaged had the capacity to retaliate during the launch I would say yes, most definitely they qualify. As it stands, they were not really in any more iminent danger than if they were firing test missiles onto a range.

ET2(SS) Michael Hinsley

I think if you were to go strickly by original intent, than you may as well do away with the isnignia. The nature of warfare changes and you have to apply the current environment to what is written. If the current environment doesn't fit, than either change what is written or make the insignia obsolete.

[Cooter754]

So let me get this straight. You actually think that modern (ie, Cold War and later) submariners face the same amount of danger that WW2 submariners faced? Then please explain to me how it is that the death rate for WW2 sub sailors was so much higher. The last I heard, there have only been FOUR United States submarines lost since the end of WW2, compared to FORTY EIGHT during the war itself. And NONE have been lost since 1967. Yes the job is inherently dangerous, but that is why you get the extra pay, that is why (at least partially) it is volunteer only, that is why everone must earn their dolphins. Forgive me for my indignance Senior Chief, but I think that it is downright disrespectful to equate one person's service during a time of unprecedented safety to that of someone serving during unprecedented peril.

As for your personal experiences, I cannot speak to them. I know I have spent many hours next to the O2 generator myself. I have been through fire, flooding and even steam line rupture casualties myself, though they were all minor. I don't think these dangers can compare at all to an intelligent and active enemy that is seeking to sink you. The dangers that I faced were part of the job. They do not warrant nor do they need additional recognition. Let's reserve that honor for the men that deserve it.

ET2(SS) M Hinsley

[Cooter754]

I think if you were to go strickly by original intent, than you may as well do away with the isnignia. The nature of warfare changes and you have to apply the current environment to what is written. If the current environment doesn't fit, than either change what is written or make the insignia obsolete.

I agree with you that the nature of warfare changes, but we have measures in place to identify and recognize the modern environment. That's why they authorize the campaign ribbons with devices. The potential for sub on sub or sub on ship combat will exist as long as there is more than one Navy in the ocean. The Combat Patrol Pin isn't obsolete, there just have not been any situations during which it should be awarded. That's just my thought on it, though.

[Cooter754]

Ok let me think this one out, hmmm load aim and fire a weapon at an enemy target. Check... well that can't be that. Must be the facing danger aspect of combat, maybe I should consult with the Cold war Submarine veterans about their happy carefree times. What is wrong with you people just getting the submarine to the launch area is a dangerious thing. 30 feet from a Nuclear Reactor even less from Nuclear weapons. Not to mention the Bomb, did you ever hear about the O2 Generator?. Have our submariners made it seem that easy? I have seen fires, flooding and thought I was heading for the bottom on more than one occasion. Was on my knees praying (after I had done all I could do of course) my last rites on one occasion. Our nuclear Submariners are the most highly trained and dedicated men I know who face death daily under the sea just as their WWII hero's did. So give them the pin or keep it! It doesn't matter they know who they are and how to do their job. Just don't ever tell me submarines don't face combat, they face life and death every day while underway. You can tell it to the crews of the two Nuclear Submarines lost during the Cold War.

TMCS(SS) USN RET
Bill Whitehead.....USS Pargo (SSN 650)...USS Philadelphia (SSN 690)...Subron Six
GO NAVY BEAT ARMY

Wait a minute. You actually think that modern (ie, Cold War and later) submariners face the same amount of danger that WW2 submariners faced? Then please explain to me how it is that the death rate for WW2 sub sailors was so much higher. The last I heard, there have only been FOUR United States submarines lost since the end of WW2, compared to FORTY EIGHT during the war itself. And NONE have been lost since 1967. Yes the job is inherently dangerous, but that is why you get the extra pay, that is why (at least partially) it is volunteer only, that is why everone must earn their dolphins. Forgive me for my indignance Senior Chief, but I think that it is downright disrespectful to equate one person's service during a time of unprecedented safety to that of someone serving during unprecedented peril.

As for your personal experiences, I cannot speak to them. I know I have spent many hours next to the O2 generator myself. I have been through fire, flooding and even steam line rupture casualties myself, though they were all minor. I don't think these dangers can compare at all to an intelligent and active enemy that is seeking to sink you. The dangers that I faced were part of the job. They do not warrant nor do they need additional recognition. Let's reserve that honor for the men that deserve it.

ET2(SS) M Hinsley

[topit]

. Yes the job is inherently dangerous, but that is why you get the extra pay, ET2(SS) M Hinsley

The USS Scorpion SSN 589 went down in May 1968 not 1967. You get the extra pay? Didn't you get the Submarine pay too ET2(SS). The patrol pin should not be exclusive to WWII Sailors only just as the Combat Infantry Pin is not exclusive to the Army fighters of WWII. The submarines were launching on enemy targets. Your right you cannot speak for my experiance in Military service and its clear also that you don't know how submarine qualified CPO's like myself feel about our hero's the WWII Submarine Veterans. I thank you for putting your A** on the line for our Country but I think you are way off base.

[dulatice]

So, here's the thing. Submarines will NEVER be in the same dangers that were faced during WWII. To the best of my knowledge, no one has earned this insignia in over 40 years! They either need to get rid of it, or they need to change what the requirements are to earn it. Maybe they should make it where if the boat is in potential inherent danger they can earn it, or maybe if they actually fire on an enemy target. (such as during Iraqi Freedom). Otherwise, it is a serious waste of money for the exchanges to have to keep these stocked.

[AIRFORCEAGGIE]

They did give the CPP to a submarine that sank a merchant ship. In general most subs preferred to target merchants since they directly effected the industry of the Japanese/Germans. That's why when you look at a sub's battle flag there are usually far less military kills listed than civilian. Then of course there's the flag for the Barb which had a train on it...that's another story.

could you please tell the story about the train? I'm curious on how a sub sank a train. I guess sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.

[Bruce]

Should submariners who participated in OIF be allowed to wear the Submarine Combat Patrol pin?

Per the MILPERSMAN 1200-010:

2. Submarine Combat Patrol Insignia.
a. Authorization for the Submarine Combat Patrol Insignia
is given to members regularly assigned to submarine duty on or
after 7 December 1941, who completed one or more wartime combat
patrols designated as successful because
(1) the submarine sank or assisted in sinking at least
one enemy vessel, or
(2) the submarine accomplished a combat mission of
comparable importance.
b. The insignia represents completion of one successful
patrol.
(1) A gold star mounted on the insignia indicates an
additional successful patrol.
(2) A silver star mounted on the insignia indicates a
total of five successful patrols.
NOTE: This insignia may be awarded to personnel prior to
qualification in submarines in time of war.

A buddy of mine was a missleman on the USS Robert E. Lee during the 1960s. Recently he saw an active duty naval officer wearing a submarine combat patrol badge, who was obviously not old enough to have patrolled in WWII and asked him how he earned the badge. The officer said that he served on boomers and their patrols count for the badge. He commented further that Polaris sailors, like my friend, were made eligible for the badge retroactively. Is this true? And how would he get one now?

[dulatice]

No person currently on active duty is eligible to wear the submarine combat patrol pin. From a discussion with an old COB of mine, the last time a submarine crew earned it was during the Korean war. He probably intended to wear the submarine deterrent patrol pin. (Just thinking positive here.)


A buddy of mine was a missleman on the USS Robert E. Lee during the 1960s. Recently he saw an active duty naval officer wearing a submarine combat patrol badge, who was obviously not old enough to have patrolled in WWII and asked him how he earned the badge. The officer said that he served on boomers and their patrols count for the badge. He commented further that Polaris sailors, like my friend, were made eligible for the badge retroactively. Is this true? And how would he get one now?

[SeaChicken]

No person currently on active duty is eligible to wear the submarine combat patrol pin. From a discussion with an old COB of mine, the last time a submarine crew earned it was during the Korean war. He probably intended to wear the submarine deterrent patrol pin. (Just thinking positive here.)Or the Officer was wearing the Deterrent Patrol pin and said friend simply mistook what he saw for the CPP. The Officer's comments then about Boomer crews currently and Polaris crews retroactively being eligible would make sense.

[ET1(SS) Keith]

If the mission for submarines has changed so much, why are they still armed? Trust me, the WW2 pig-boat sailors still are, and always will be heroes. the fact of the matter is, the mission that was performed in WW2 still exists, but there's no need for it now. The focus has shifted to more of a preventative angle. When the next war breaks out that requires the use of submarines, there's no doubt that the combat patrol pin will be awarded again. So I think ET2 and TMCS are both right. As submariners, it IS our job to place ourselves into danger every minute of every day that we're not tied to the pier. But that alone doesn't warrant the combat patrol pin. That's what our dolphins are for. and that's why the skimmer pins (ESWS) will never begin to compare. Working at SubGru7, I know a lot of things that I can't post here. But it definitely makes me laugh when we get some arrogant skimmer puke who thinks his pins overvalue ours. The submarine combat patrol pin means that you've been up against an enemy who was actively trying to sink you. In simple terms, they were coming to kill your a$$. Remember the skimmer joke, 150 guys go down, 75 couples come up? Remember, when a surface ship goes down, NOBODY comes back up. Some ships are designed to sink. The rest of them require our assistance. There's a reason the pins are named the way they are. I got my SSBN Nuclear Deterrent Patrol pin by going to sea on a boomer. The submarine combat patrol pin should be awarded for actually going into combat with an external foe while onboard a submarine. Just like the pig boat sailors did back in WW2.

[RMCS(SS) FLEWWELLIN/RET]

no one in todays' submarine force should be authorized to wear the CPP..no SSN is engaged in sub to sub and or sub to ship warfare/combat..submarine duty in itself is inherently dangerous and that is why we draw submarine pay and have to earn our submarine warfare designator "DOLPHINS"..inport..underway..where ever we are.. we use repeat backs..redundancy in our systems..have 1st and 2nd checkers..get qualified submarines and other various watch stations having nothing to do with our technical ratings..we are the elite..but to try and compare a strike mission and or intel mission to WW II submarines on combat patrol is ridiculous..not only did WW II submarines face grave danger 24/7 once leaving port and as our tactics got so good that Japanese merchants were scared of even leaving their ports..more often than not they were escorted by warships..so while setting up an attack on any merchant could often bring depth charging or other hazards..i.e.shallow water..attacks from friendly forces..etc..our WW II brothers persevered and were a major force to be reckoned with during the war..BSM's for sub skippers today for strike missions is also a farce..it is an attempt to give them equal footing for promotion against their surface and air warfare counterparts..that is why over the last 10-12 years the submarine force has went from the silent service to blowing their own horn so they can compete for tight DOD bucks..lastly for the person asking about the train..the USS Barb commanded by Admiral Eugene Fluckley (MOH/4 Navy Crosses recipient) sent a party of former boy scouts ashore and they blew up a railroad crossing and a train on one of the Japanese Islands..that is why they were able to paint a train on their battle flag..the CO asked for former boy scout volunteers figuring they could and would be tough enough and competent enough to complete the mission..

[ET1(SS) Keith]

RMCS,

Agreed. Completely. But, I think there are a lot of countries that need reminding of why the Japanese navy was so afraid of U.S. Subs, and still are. You know just as well as i do(being a fellow radioman) that the first line i said can probably be expanded to an entire 2-page monologue. The awarding of the submarine combat patrol pin is definitely not warranted by what the subs are doing today, but i have a very strong feeling that a situation will unfold where the pins will be awarded within the next couple of years. just look at the cycle of history. war, prominence, depression, war.

[RMCS(SS) FLEWWELLIN/RET]

ET1 you could be right but I hope not..the sad thing is they only have to get lucky once while we have to be right all the time..on more than one occasion and more than one submarine some of my old CO's said exactly that before we were getting ready to do something..however the United States Submarine force is still the most qualified..highly trained..competent fighting force in the world..I also spent 3 1/2 years on an amphibious assault ship and got too see the surface side of the Navy and the USMC at work..while adequate and motivated they are pale in comparison to one highly qualified/motivated SSN crew on deployment..not sure if you ever heard the term WETSU...it was good back then and should apply even more today..something else you should know..only wussies tack on crows or dolphins or any of that other b/s..and only wussies engage in the p/c aspects of submarine duty..real men get qualified..real men stick with it..and lastly real men consider it a honor/privilege to be "QUALIFIED SUBMARINES"..you don't have to say a word..those silver or gold DOLPHINS on your chest say it all..trust me we can out fight..out trail..out shoot..out perform any other navy in the world let alone other submarine forces..I feel a lot of submarine pride has been lost because of as I said before to much talking about what we did..what we can do..for DOD money..etc..however, unfortunately that has become the nature of the beast and politics..Blind Man Bluff..those assholes that wrote that book that went on on those missions should be in a prison cell somewhere for treason..but remember as you look yourself in the mirror everyday before you head out that door for work where ever it might be..just know you are not just one of the elite..YOU ARE THE ELITE..and no other branch..no other warfare community..NO ONE..can take that away or tell you different..so walk a little taller..with some swagger..you earned it..God Bless you for your service

[RandomFT2]

As a submariner I feel a deep respect for the older generation submariners especially after talking to WWII vets. Those were much tougher times where those men actually did their job with a lot of pride and their lives depended on it. SSBN's get a patrol pin for every patrol that they successfully aid our country in the important mission of strategic deterrence. And SSN's should have a pin of their own for completing important tasks as well, most of what we do is classified and we can't talk about it so a patrol pin is called for but perhaps something different for the boats of today. Only so we do not detract from the incredible sacrifices the submariners of WWII and before have made.

[anstrpnr]

Wow, I posted this hoping for good discussion but expected it to get lost in the shuffle. Clearly there has been some very good communication on this issue and I'm not the only one wondering if with the change in the sub force (addition of SSGN platform) we should have something to acknowledge the boats that have completed "a combat mission of comparable importance" such as coming back a little lighter in the VLS tubes.

[Major Mike]

Do the readers think that pilot wings should only be awarded after completion of a pilot course and soloing in a JN-4? Should the Combat Infantryman Badge only be awarded afer an engagement with an enemy using bolt-action rifles.

OK, I have wings, not Dolphins. But that doesn't disqualify me from stating that times, missions, equipment, and threats change. In fact, the only thing that doesn't appear to change is the flintlock on the CIB or the GATO, (arguably a Mackeral) on the SCP badge.

The guys that go beneath the waves have my undying respect. it takes a great amount of knowledge, devotion, and service to earn Dolphins. But what about those attack boat crews who sail into harms way to execute a missile strike, covert special warfare mission, or reconnaissance mission. This sounds in congruence with blowing up a railroad train, the Makin Raid or Tokyo harbor before Doolittle's raid.

One of two things needs to happen. Either the SCP the criteria needs to be modernized, or a new badge needs to be created. Because any crew that launches SEALS in enemy harbors, listens to enemy cable communications, or launches ordinance against an enemy, deserves something.

[RandomFT2]

You are basically saying the same thing I said. Yes they should get a patrol pin of some sort but it should be a different kind of pin so as not to detract from the sacrifices of WWI and WWII submariners who went to sea knowing their chances of return were slim. They were much more dangerous times and with much less sophisticated equipment. Instead fo firing torpedoes from 10's of thousands of yards away, they had to shoot from less than 6 to ensure a hit. They didn't have sophisticated sonar either which would allow them to shoot while remaining undetected. The weapons and tracking systems we use today are vastly superior to anything back then. So to say just because they launched a missile from 100 nautical miles away with very little real danger involved, they should get the same honor, is quite unfair.

[Silver Fox]

If AF Pilots get a "Combat Action Medal" for launching missles from miles away from danger, I see no reason submarine crews can't get this pin.

[ScottyJF03]

You are basically saying the same thing I said. Yes they should get a patrol pin of some sort but it should be a different kind of pin so as not to detract from the sacrifices of WWI and WWII submariners who went to sea knowing their chances of return were slim.

Sorry, not a bubble head, but are you seriously asking for a badge for going on cruise? I mean I deployed off the coast of Iraq and along the Iranian waters. We launched Marines, spec war and aircraft able to deliver weapons, and probably listened to communications. Does that mean surface guys should get a SCP (surface Combat patrol)?


...and I'm not the only one wondering if with the change in the sub force (addition of SSGN platform) we should have something to acknowledge the boats that have completed "a combat mission of comparable importance" such as coming back a little lighter in the VLS tubes.

Once again, aircrew needs a SCP (Soaring Combat Pin) for comming back a few pylons lighter

Deployments outside non territorial waters is part of serving in the military. You want a pin, put on your dolphins.

Just a view from the otherside of the fence.