Sailors blast wear rules for blue cammies

[fenway]

Sailors blast wear rules for blue cammies

By Mark D. Faram - Staff writer
Posted : Tuesday Dec 16, 2008 18:09:14 EST

Sailors are lashing out at the Navy’s tough new uniform regulations, which say that sailors wearing the new Navy Working Uniform won’t be allowed to get out of their cars while driving to and from work unless it’s an emergency.

The new rules are more restrictive than the regs covering the to-be-replaced utilities and wash khakis, as well as the current woodland cammies and flight suits.

Current uniform regulations allow sailors to make brief stops — such as pumping gas, picking up prescriptions and dropping off kids at day care — in the current uniforms. None of this will be allowed once sailors and officers begin wearing the Navy Working Uniform, which will be available to purchase in the Norfolk, Va., area next month.

Within 24 hours of posting a short news story on the restrictions and soliciting feedback, Navy Times received more than 40 e-mails from sailors and officers expressing outrage over the decision to tighten the rules.

“This is beyond ridiculous,” wrote Fire Controlman 2nd Class (SW/AW) Jason McKeever, who works aboard the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln. “The fact that every other service [except the Marine Corps] authorizes their service members to wear their working uniforms to places like grocery stores or the mall just shows how out of touch the Navy officials are.”

The Navy announced its rollout schedule and rules for wear Dec. 2.

At the time of the message’s release, Navy officials told Navy Times that the commuting rules for the NWU were identical to the rules for all current working uniforms. Those officials have since corrected themselves, saying that the current rules for utilities and wash khakis do allow for brief stops.

Navy Times, on Tuesday morning, requested further clarification on the reason for the rule change from the office of the Chief of Naval Operations.

The rule change will likely cause problems for deck-plate leaders who need to enforce them.

That’s because once the NWU begins its two-year rollout, there will be two sets of uniform rules on the street — one for the NWU, authorizing no routine stops, and the current, and more liberal, rules for the rest of the uniforms.

“I personally cannot understand why we are going so high and right, because it will cause more confusion … and I feel this will only drive the desire to wear the NWU to be even less,” said Command Master Chief (SW/AW) Michael Napier, senior enlisted sailor at Strike Fighter Squadron 27 at Naval Air Facility Atsugi, Japan.

Napier says uniform regs are already tough enough for him and other chiefs to enforce, and having two standards will only make that even tougher to enforce.

“I already face it working on a naval air station with air crews wanting to wear flight suits to everything short of the Navy Ball. As a black-shoe snipe, it drives me nuts — so I see the NWU being nothing but an uphill battle.”

Tell us what you think
Navy Times wants to hear from sailors about the stringent new policy. Do you support it, or do you think it's not practical? How will this impact your life?

[CommunityEditor]

Article: http://www.navytimes.com/news/2008/12/navy_cammies_rules_121608/
Uniform FAQ: http://www.navytimes.com/news/2008/12/navy_uniform_faq_121508w/

[RADENNIS0]

The Navy is basically saying "Change into your working uniform after you get to work. And then change out of it when you knock off."

[Boats/88]

Nothing new, Is this all the kids do today is bitch! How hard is it for you to change your clothes?
Back in the 80's this policy was in place for the dungaree's You either had to change into civilian clothes, or the uniform of the day.
There are many other things that you can complain about! Changing your clothes should not be one of them!

[RADENNIS0]

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with wearing work uniforms in public. Maybe it wouldn't hurt for the public to see Sailors in work uniforms.

Oh, and if that's how they did things in the 80's then it must be the right way to do it.

[AngerMan8404]

It is a uniform. Nothing new... some uniforms you can be worn off base some cant. Nothing new.

[fenway]

I think they implied that they will back off on this in the future. It is a good looking uniform so why not?

[jeffersj]

First off, the Navy has indicated that the rules for wearing the new uniform off-duty are being reviewed.

Second, be happy you get to wear the current/proposed uniforms off-duty even with the restrictions.

1980's - no working uniforms allowed off-base period unless in a government vehicle on government business. A lot of bases had Marines at the gates checking vehicle occupants. Anyone wearing all/part of a working uniform (including taking the dungaree shirt off and throwing on a civilian undershirt while wearing the trousers) got turned around and sent back to their command.

32nd St. Naval Station San Diego - the main NEX was considered "off-base". That meant if you wanted to go there at lunch you either got into uniform of the day or waited until liberty call and went in street clothes. Nothing hard about that.

Yes, once the rules relaxed I did commute in working uniforms. I also didn't find it all that hard to change clothes before going on liberty.

[forcedj]

1980's - no working uniforms allowed off-base period unless in a government vehicle on government business. A lot of bases had Marines at the gates checking vehicle occupants. Anyone wearing all/part of a working uniform (including taking the dungaree shirt off and throwing on a civilian undershirt while wearing the trousers) got turned around and sent back to their command.



Yeah, that was a hassle...especially if you lived off base and were attached to a shore command where dungarees was the uniform of the day but there wasn't anyplace to change. Like jeff said...at least be happy you can were the aquaflage to/from work.

Dan

[tmurphy]

Nothing new, Is this all the kids do today is bitch! How hard is it for you to change your clothes?
Back in the 80's this policy was in place for the dungaree's You either had to change into civilian clothes, or the uniform of the day.
There are many other things that you can complain about! Changing your clothes should not be one of them!
Back in the 80's the Navy did allot of things that made no sense. For example, hazing, sexual harassment and no drug testing are just a few examples so I guess we should still do that also since that is how they did it in the 80's. Times change and so do policy and this one needs to be changed. Now that we have a uniform that actually presents a military appearance we can't wear it off base--go figure! It’s people like you with your "old school thinking" that keeps the greatest Navy in the world behind the times. I bet you hate the idea of all hands wearing a khaki shirt also, take a look at a calendar near you, it is 2008!
If the Army and Air force have been doing it for years without any problems then what is the big deal? Let me answer that for you---- IT JUST MAKES SENSE! Plain and simple no matter how you try to twist and turn it because I know what you’re first thought is, "We are not in the Army or Air Force".
After it is all said and done, I am a Sailor who will follow the orders/rules leadership decides on. But it is a shame that this topic is so consiversal when the right thing to do is use common sense and think about how ridiculous this rule is. It is truly sad that after the Navy spent almost three years asking us what we wanted for a new uniform and then dropped the ball when it came to how we can wear it. It’s OK for us to decide what we want the uniform to look like but we have no say in how we can wear it. Not a problem, I’ll keep mine in the closet with my woodland, desert, current utilities, foul weather coats and coveralls I can’t wear off base either. Who are we kidding? We should have seen it coming because the standard has always been if it feels to comfortable, practical or makes it convenient, then it is NOT authorized just like in the 80’s!

[Shep]

Come on think about it. How many man hours were wasted for people changing clothes every time you went for lunch or went off base to take care of personnel business? Back in the 80's the Navy did allot of things that make no sense. For example, hazing, sexual harassment and no drug testing are just a few examples so I guess we should still do that also since that is how they did it in the 80's. Times change and so do policy and this one needs to be changed. Now that we have a uniform that actually presents a military appearance we can't wear it off base--go figure! It’s people like you with your "old school thinking" that keeps the best Navy in the world behind the times. Take a look at your calendar, it is 2008!!!
If the Army and Air force have been doing it for years without any problems then what is the big deal? Let me answer that for you---- IT JUST MAKES SENSE! Plain and simple no matter how you try to twist and turn it because I know what you’re first thought is, "We are not in the Army or Air Force".
After it is all said and done, I am a Sailor who will follow the orders/rules leadership decides on but it is a shame that something so simple has to be blown so far out of proportion (FRONT PAGE NEWS IN THE NAVY TIMES) when the right thing to do is use common sense and think about how ridiculous this rule is. It is truly sad that after the Navy spent almost three years asking us what we wanted for a new uniform and then dropped the ball when it came to how we can wear it. It’s OK for us to decide what we want the uniform to look like but we have no say in how we can wear it. Not a problem, I’ll keep mine in the closet with my woodland, desert, current utilities, foul weather coats and coveralls I can’t wear off base either. Who are we kidding? We should have seen it coming because the standard has always been if it feels to comfortable, practical or makes it convenient, then it is NOT authorized just like in the 80’s!



Youre newsletter.....I'd like to subscribe!

[tmurphy]

We aim to please, consider it a public service free of charge:-)

[ElectricElvis]

My primary concern at this point is when we'll get a full set of finalized wear rules. One thing I haven't heard an answer for yet is how are we supposed to set battle dress for fire-fighting in a ship-board environment in the new NWU? I'm NOT leaving my shirt untucked for fire-fighting and other damage control evolutions; it's just not as protective. This is something that NEEDS to be addressed; Damage control is a PRIMARY FUNCTION that I'm not sure was taken into account when this whole scheme was concocted.

[Boats/88]

Back in the 80's the Navy did allot of things that made no sense. For example, hazing, sexual harassment and no drug testing are just a few examples so I guess we should still do that also since that is how they did it in the 80's. Times change and so do policy and this one needs to be changed. Now that we have a uniform that actually presents a military appearance we can't wear it off base--go figure! It’s people like you with your "old school thinking" that keeps the greatest Navy in the world behind the times. I bet you hate the idea of all hands wearing a khaki shirt also, take a look at a calendar near you, it is 2008!
If the Army and Air force have been doing it for years without any problems then what is the big deal? Let me answer that for you---- IT JUST MAKES SENSE! Plain and simple no matter how you try to twist and turn it because I know what you’re first thought is, "We are not in the Army or Air Force".
After it is all said and done, I am a Sailor who will follow the orders/rules leadership decides on. But it is a shame that this topic is so consiversal when the right thing to do is use common sense and think about how ridiculous this rule is. It is truly sad that after the Navy spent almost three years asking us what we wanted for a new uniform and then dropped the ball when it came to how we can wear it. It’s OK for us to decide what we want the uniform to look like but we have no say in how we can wear it. Not a problem, I’ll keep mine in the closet with my woodland, desert, current utilities, foul weather coats and coveralls I can’t wear off base either. Who are we kidding? We should have seen it coming because the standard has always been if it feels to comfortable, practical or makes it convenient, then it is NOT authorized just like in the 80’s!

No man hours where wasted during the old policy. That is why the Navy offers a 1 1/2 lunch. 15 min. before and after to change your uniform. With lunch being served on base and onboard ships. Why would you have to leave base. As far as changing clothes after work! It is no harder then changing clothes when going to bed.
Now I take great offense to the remarks on hazing and drug testing. The navy did more drug testing in the 80's then they do now. I worked in two master-arms-office. On board a ship and on a large high level staff command. Drug testing was held on a regular bases. Some times less then a week apart, and I am talking Command sweeps. Now to the hazing. Hazing is in the eyes of the beholder. What some may think of hazing others see as a time honored tradition. Do some take these traditions to far yes. Do some that cry about every little thing take it to far yes.
That is why rules and regulations are made. You mentioned in your above statement
Times change and so do policy and this one needs to be changed. Well they have! The Navy changed back to the policy that these uniforms would not be worn in public.

I hope the Navy does not change the policy on this one. I for one do not like seeing military personal in working uniform off base.
The military working uniform is just that work! Your dress uniform is for public few and if you do not like to wear your dress uniform. You can also opt out to wear civies?

[navysk8punk]

I am a bit amazed and shocked by the head in the sand stance that a lot of posts on here are reflecting. I am a fourth generation sailor, and I am also a new navy sailor who in 4 years in a closed rate has flown up the ranks. I am not trying to toot my own horn but simply explain my background.

For the people who don't watch training videos (bupers, NKO, or Navytimes) or have the ability to read NadAdmins when told to do so the NWU blouse may be tucked in, so there is your issue for damage control, besides the fact most fire teams will done FFEs before they actual battle a major causality or are we still rocking that 80s mindset.

Further that being said, I am a BIG E sailor, if you know what that means your head is not up your ass. I have worked with mostly chiefs and officers who came in during the 80s and the only good things I ever hear them talking about is how lacks rules were in regards to getting tore town wasted, and avoiding trouble in port. Beyond that well I hope your get the idea but I doubt it. It mostly sounds like you are afraid of change and thus clinging on to these ridiculous notions that the old way was the best way. If that were the case it wouldn't be the old way, it would just be the "WAY".

The Navy on whole is well known for being wasteful, or have you forgotten the 80s way of making something disappear over the side, surveying it and getting a new one, or fan rooms filled with parts, the list can go on and on. The fact that you put out that a hour and half lunch break out of a 8 hour work day isn't wasteful is insulting to anyone who reads it.

I hate that the new Navy does knee jerk reactions to everything but it happens. All we can do is make rank, and try to change it for the better. I once believed that’s what the chiefs mess was for, making the best Navy in the world the best, but with people like you out there I guess I was wrong. I further love how the sub Navy has all but accomplished its goal of wiping out us aviation types, and I am sure it will get much worse before it gets better, if this wasn't the case you wouldn't see so many damn people going blue to green. You honestly expect me to think the Army is better. Last time I checked it has been the US Navy bailing the Army out in every avenue. Or are sailors on the ground in Iraq there digging canals? Since when did the US Marine Corps make Navy policy? Well I doubt anyone has any answers to these that aren’t filled with political BS. But as far as the uniforms go, ONE TEAM ONE FIGHT, if we all have BDUs we ALL SHOULD HAVE THE SAME RULES OF WEARING THEM!

[ElectricElvis]

I am a bit amazed and shocked by the head in the sand stance that a lot of posts on here are reflecting. I am a fourth generation sailor, and I am also a new navy sailor who in 4 years in a closed rate has flown up the ranks. I am not trying to toot my own horn but simply explain my background.

For the people who don't watch training videos (bupers, NKO, or Navytimes) or have the ability to read NadAdmins when told to do so the NWU blouse may be tucked in, so there is your issue for damage control, besides the fact most fire teams will done FFEs before they actual battle a major causality or are we still rocking that 80s mindset.

Further that being said, I am a BIG E sailor, if you know what that means your head is not up your ass. I have worked with mostly chiefs and officers who came in during the 80s and the only good things I ever hear them talking about is how lacks rules were in regards to getting tore town wasted, and avoiding trouble in port. Beyond that well I hope your get the idea but I doubt it. It mostly sounds like you are afraid of change and thus clinging on to these ridiculous notions that the old way was the best way. If that were the case it wouldn't be the old way, it would just be the "WAY".

The Navy on whole is well known for being wasteful, or have you forgotten the 80s way of making something disappear over the side, surveying it and getting a new one, or fan rooms filled with parts, the list can go on and on. The fact that you put out that a hour and half lunch break out of a 8 hour work day isn't wasteful is insulting to anyone who reads it.

I hate that the new Navy does knee jerk reactions to everything but it happens. All we can do is make rank, and try to change it for the better. I once believed that’s what the chiefs mess was for, making the best Navy in the world the best, but with people like you out there I guess I was wrong. I further love how the sub Navy has all but accomplished its goal of wiping out us aviation types, and I am sure it will get much worse before it gets better, if this wasn't the case you wouldn't see so many damn people going blue to green. You honestly expect me to think the Army is better. Last time I checked it has been the US Navy bailing the Army out in every avenue. Or are sailors on the ground in Iraq there digging canals? Since when did the US Marine Corps make Navy policy? Well I doubt anyone has any answers to these that aren’t filled with political BS. But as far as the uniforms go, ONE TEAM ONE FIGHT, if we all have BDUs we ALL SHOULD HAVE THE SAME RULES OF WEARING THEM!

Here I go again... (sorry for the length, guys, but I needed to say it all)

Ok, so there are some things I feel need clearing up here. First of all, you are not the only person with a family tradition. I'm third generation on both sides of my family. I also have been in four years, and the only reason I'm not "flying up the ranks" when our rate is severely closed up going to the next paygrade is the advantage of the others who had three years head-start on me. I also resent the implication that my concern is part of a stale mindset, when all I'm asking for is some specific safety enhancing guidance, and I resent that since I asked for that guidance I have been pinpointed in a rather snidely written side-swipe.

Secondly, all our ship has been given so far is "wear guidance" posters. I looked up every navadmin written on the NWU, but battle dress has no set procedures so far as I have seen... yet. I attempted to load the videos on board, but the ship's servers can't handle the unwieldy file fast enough, and the connection timed out before I could load it. I have since watched the videos over a public WIFI, and battle dress is not mentioned. The current guidance says the shirt may be tucked in if necessary or authorized, and there are reasons besides battle dress where that would be a concern. Opnavinst 5100.19E requires personnel working around rotating machinery to tuck in all loose articles of clothing (IE, shirt tails) due to the risk from snag hazzards. This is (un)common sense. The only nod I saw, heard or read was "emergent situations", which was in reference to how we're supposed to roll the sleeves. I'm not saying the new uniforms are inferior, I just want to know if there's going to be guidance for how it's going to be done. If we're basing our battle dress on how the MA's wear their current BDU's during GQ, THEY DON'T TUCK THEM IN! If you are referencing a specific source, please try helping a shippie out and tell me where and what so I can educate myself, instead of just telling me I'm ignorant and it's my own lazy fault.

I will proudly wear the aqua-flage, because it will be the required uniform. I will even happily wear the new working uniform, which looks a lot sharper than my current working uniforms. But, my Johnny Cash's will always have a special place in my closet. That said, I don't always agree with changed or existing policies, but they are there for a reason, and I will follow them. Besides which, at my current rank, there's not much I can do about them.

Thirdly, you seem to be operating on a mis-conception. FFE's are great, but we don't have one for every crew member. As a result, pretty much only the hose teams wear them. Rapid response does not, hence the need for battle dress, since the entire purpose of rapid response is to hold the casualty at bay until the hose teams can get there. I'm on the ship's at-sea fire party of an aircraft carrier (and no, not one that tried to burn itself down), and by on, I mean it's part of my CURRENT duties. I am considered part of rapid response, and we answer everything from various toxic gases to major fires, to electrical fires, to hazmat spills. At present, I'm hoping on the bit about the coveralls still being permitted by the skipper for myself, but the rest of the crew likely won't go change into coveralls when a GQ gets called.

I work with lots of officers and chiefs, and I have come to a hypothesis as to why they think navy dicipline is deteriorating. It is, as a whole, much the same as it was before, except now we send people to mast for things we didn't before. Underage drinking, drunk driving, et cetera. Also, from the chiefs perspectives, they're seeing the problem from the top instead of the bottom. I'm sure their chiefs said the same thing about them, back in the 80's. We still do have a lot of the same supply practices as we did in the 80's, except now we have all the parts we need, except when we actually need them. Then there are never enough on hand.

BTW, we ARE in Iraq. Or has everyone forgotten our beloved Seabees and Individual Augmentees? Oh, they're just there as support crew. Mostly. Maybe blow up an occasional road or bridge, but primarily they build stuff. Which (last time I checked) included digging ditches. Nothing wrong with digging ditches, my great-grandfather did it for a living, and my grandfather was a Seabee who did a lot of ditch digging. And for anyone not familiar with Seabee lore, the motto is, "We build, We fight". That's not a coincidence; it's based on a long history of being the constuction support for the marines, running all the way back to WW2.

Speaking of the Marines, they don't like being reminded of it, but they're technically part of the Navy. Technically. Their officers go to the Naval Academy, their troops are transported aboard our ships, So the bit about the Marines setting our policies is a bit backwards, I think. Pretty sure it's the other way around, actually. There is a Department of the Army, a Department of the Air force (which was formerly part of the Army) and a Deparment of the Navy, but no Department of the Marines. Even the name, "marine", has naval connotations. Dedicated fighting forces based on ships were originally dubbed "marines" by the British Navy (from whom we stole more than our freedom; we also took a good bit of their naval heritage as our own).

Please, stop confusing me. First you say the Navy is the best, then it sucks, then we're better than the other services, then you expect me to buy the proferred "one team, one fight" mentality? Perhaps closely examining the mixed message you're sending for inconsistancies would be wise. It would help you build a more plausible argument. Also, knowing the history behind your own service is always a good idea, and I don't just mean the 80's. That way, you don't go off on a tangent that is poorly based in what you consider to be "history" when your version of "history" only includes what has happened since you were born. The first recorded event in history was not the beginning of your life, and the anals of history will not halt out of grief when your life is over, the same as they will not stop at my passing. I'll be a brief footnote, and the world will go on.

And by the way? I eat my lunch in 30 minutes. Last time I checked, the galley is open for that extended amount of time to provide the opportunity for everyone to eat lunch, considering the lines for chow and watch-relief times. I'd love to trade places with whoever has the luxury of an hour and a half lunch.

[hillbilly]

I have been in for almost 15 years and have seen alot of changes but it seems there have always been 2 sets of rules one for E-6 and below and the khaki clan have there own. I dont see what the big deal is about wearing uniforms out in town. We see everyday shipmates wearing uniforms to exchanges etc. There are tooo many things going on for more rules and it shows out of touch some of these rules are and can be as long as the uniforms are neat clean and ironed I dont see any issue except for certain people being bored sitting at a desk or cubicle somewhere making up rules when the only one who makes the rules are the ones who where the uniforms not some officer who has never worn an enlisted uniform and just the same for them someone who wears there respected uniform. Chiefs have enough issues going on more rules for them to enforce is not what we need. As a second class I have been in alot of places had alot of responseabilty from protecting my base as a member of ASF to proctecting my shipmates and my command when I am told I think we can make the decesion on what to where again as long as they are neat clean and ironed .

[midknightusn]

As my grandfather would say, "it’s damn annoying, when kids refer to their time in the service as glorious or f*ed up!" The Navy has changed the uniform regs for wear as much as the style numerous times and will continue to do so longer after all of us. Command policies change the regs for wearing the uniform as well. Every one here who has been in long enough to have been stationed at more than one command knows this. It comes down to the simple fact that why change out of a uniform I am proud to wear; as long as it isn't soiled?

Being deployed to Africa and receiving the positive, when we got it, reaction from locals while in our DCUs was indescribable. Wearing the DCUs into theater and back home is the only way to travel because of the welcome home and thank you given by everyone you pass by. I do hope the Navy amends the wearing of the NWU to match the SVU regulations. I for one thank almost every soldier I see in the ACUs while out in town for everything they do; if they're not in uniform it's kind of hard to thank them. I see nothing wrong with them wearing their uniform. Why is it a problem for sailors? For those of us riding a desk the SVU is the only option for wearing to work and out in town. You just have to get past the look of confusion by civilians.

Yes, I change into civies in my truck or gym whenever I am wearing my woodlands or utilities before I run errands out in town and I think it is a pain, but a bearable pain. I further refuse to wear the SVU unless ordered since I am not a chief, officer or a confused marine.

[KENNETH123]

I have been serving since 1984. I have seen the changes and have even done some of the complaining. I was surprised by the rules put in place on the NWU. I expected the same rules that apply to the Utilities and Wash Khakis to apply to this uniform as well. I can fully understand why the Sailors are upset about this policy. The Navy has been adjusting policies to meet the needs of Sailors more and more over the years and many of these initiatives have been successful. I believe we should allow the NWU to be worn in Public. The uniform is sharp and as long as it is clean and presentable it sets a positive image for the Navy. I might add that the same people that will wear this uniform in a less then presentable appearance would most likely not look any better in Civilian clothes or a dress uniform. The issue here is what makes sense. We work our Sailors long hours and to allow them a small break by letting them stop on the way home to buy groceries or Gas is not going to hurt the Navy. I think some of us that have been aroiund a while need to lighten up and adjust to the times. I remember in the 80's there was a problem with Sailors going to the bars after work in their Dungerees. I think that the only limitation we should put on the NWU is that it can't be worn in establishements such as bars, night clubs or other establishments that would not present a positive image of the military. I might add that the Tidewater Area is working on writing their policy on wear of the NWU's. I can't imagine what they are going to add to this already strict policy. I sure hope we listen to our Sailors and realize we have missed the mark with this policy.

[jeffersj]

Like a lot of folks I figured the Navy would simply apply the old rules to the new uniforms. After all, they have been tried and tested.

Back when I came in during the 1970's I did ask about E-6 and below not wearing dungarees to commute home. The response - too many Sailors ended up making unauthorized stops in uniforms that were soiled from daily work, making the Navy look like a bunch of yahoos as a result. To counter this the Navy finally said no working uniforms outside the fence period unless on official US government business. Atthat time the OOD on the ship also had the authority to turn you back if your civilian attire was not presentable. Given some of what I'd seen on the waterfront in the past few years I have my doubts about that now.

Just remember, local authority can make things more restrictive if they want. For example, per uniform regs you may wear a peacoat with civilian attire. However, according to Navy Region Mid-Atlantic you may not as of the last time I checked. Guess whose standard applies if you wear a peacoat on the beach in Yorktown, VA?

[navva]

Cant stop for gas, to pick up kids, etc but you can ride public transportation. How much sense does that make? The uniform is not good enough to be worn outside a car but you can ride the bus in it.

[jeffersj]

Cant stop for gas, to pick up kids, etc but you can ride public transportation. How much sense does that make? The uniform is not good enough to be worn outside a car but you can ride the bus in it.

Short answer - none.

[Boats/88]

If the Navy decides to change the policy and lets sailors wear the cammies in public.
Then from here on out the Navy has lost it's ability to makes rules and regulations that they can stick with.

[kwilky1066]

I don't think it is feasible to talk about the navy in the 70's and 80's when talking about policy in the Navy of now. Many people are right here, many of the other services let thier folks wear uniforms out to the mall. So why cant the Navy be in line with the other services. A lot of people like to go do something for lunch without the hassel of changing 2 times to do it, and then changing before going home. It's retarted really! OK if it is such a big deal for us to be out and about town in a uniform such as cami's, what is the real reason for this type of policy because I really don't know and I have been in for 15 years, so I'm fairly good at figuring out the reason for policies. Most of them are for good reason, but this is absurd! Why are we getting a new uniform?

[jeffersj]

If the Navy decides to change the policy and lets sailors wear the cammies in public.
Then from here on out the Navy has lost it's ability to makes rules and regulations that they can stick with.

Incorrect.

It is very easy for the Navy (or any other organization) to retain the ability to make rules and regulations they can stick with and at the same time adapt those rules to meet changing conditions. The trick is to do it for good reason and not based on unscientific opinion polls, the current fashion, etc.

[taia12br]

Can't stop for groceries or gas, not a big deal to me or my spouse. Can't drop my kids of at school or daycare that is were I have a problem. Both my husband and myself are in the military. He is at sea and I am on shore duty. Since he has farther to drive since he has to go to the pier and has to be to work earlier than I do while I only have to go to a building right by the entrance to our base, I drop our kids off. However with the new regulations I wouldn't be able to drop them off and make it to quarters on time, since I would be wasting time having to get dressed for work at work; however since there really is no place that would be appropriate for that I guess I will drive down to the closest gym on base and then drive back to work. For those of you that may tell me to drop them off earlier that wouldn't be an option as they are going to a military child development center; which is off base and they are already getting dropped off as soon as it opens now. The old saying of they weren't issue with my c-bag is complete bull as most of the people that quote that are either single or married to civilians and won't have to deal with this issue. I know that this is also going to be an issue for several dual military couples and feel that it should be taken in consideration before they finalize the regulations for wearing the uniforms.

[BLKKNIGHT]

Don't understand why we're paying $226M on a uniform that our taxpayers cannot even appreciate to see out in town...

That's enough money spent to fully fund parts for almost the whole fleet for a year.

Good thing the country's going through economic hardships...

[BROWNMHT]

This is the 3rd working uniform since I have been on active duty...March 1989 to date myself. In all the uniform changes the one theme remains the same, Sailors do NOT take pride in thier uniforms! That may be a tough pill to swallow but it's true.

I can give numerous examples on how many times I have been forced to correct a Sailor on thier uniform. I have had to do so because I was simply embarrassed to be associated with a Sailor and the manner in which they wear thier uniform. I am not just talking about enlisted but officers too!

To all of those who are complaining about how harsh the new rules are, have you EVER corrected a Sailor on thier uniform? How many times have you had the COURAGE to politely stop a Sailor and ask them to square themselves away? How many times have you told a shipmate they can't wear coveralls in the NEX? Have you ever complimented a Sailor on how squared away thier uniform is? Have you ever been COMMITTED enough to call a CMC of a ship and reported how professionally a Sailor presented him or herself? How many Sailors have you asked to take the cell phone off thier belt or let alone off thier ear?

Unless SAILORS of ALL pay grades take a LEADERSHIP role and correct those Sailors who do not HONORably represent OUR NAVY by wearing the NWU to the HIGHEST of standards, do not complain when leadership makes us EARN the right to wear the uniform to WalMart.

[HOPSONME]

I am glad to have been transferred to Fleet Reserve. Why were we staight out lied to? Saliors cannot get gas, take their kids to child-care (even on-base). Are you serious. What is the point/ If you were going to do this , you should leave the seabag as is. I mean , when I was in, at least I could stop at a pump and buy gas if I had to. I feel sorry mostly for those whom are my buddies on the ship side of the fleet who have to continue to hurry to get to work, run to their berthing to change befroe quarters. Thanks for all the get help with the new uniforms.

[fenway]

someone lied to you about the uniform?

[OIF Sailor]

I've heard no explaination WHY we need these new uniforms and WHOSE idea it was. Is this a retention effort to console those who complain about the current "gas station" uniform? Are they happier now? And what is the need for a navy camouflage uniform anyway? Khakis were orignially intended as a desert camouflage uniform - that make sense. A blue camouflage uniform doesnt make sense on a ship! What about deployed Sailors? I am currently an IA with the Marines in Iraq. Im wearing their uniform - no problem! Also, can someone explain the planning that goes into these new uniforms? A lot of planning was given to the new Navy PT gear but, looked what happened when that roled out. It was also a disaster. It seems like no planning went into this and the Fleet wasnt given much of a say in this decision. We may have also become the laughing stock among the other services - at least for all those who I've heard commenting on our new "cammie" uniform. I hardly think this will help retention efforts. Was there any thought into making this an "OPTIONAL" uniform to fulfill whatever situation requires a blue cammie uniform rather than REPLACING uniforms the rest of us are ok with? It is not needed on ships; it's not needed with the Marines; WHO NEEDS IT? It seems rather silly when we're at war and the economy is in the dump to be worried about what we're wearing!

[Boats/88]

Can't stop for groceries or gas, not a big deal to me or my spouse. Can't drop my kids of at school or daycare that is were I have a problem. Both my husband and myself are in the military. He is at sea and I am on shore duty. Since he has farther to drive since he has to go to the pier and has to be to work earlier than I do while I only have to go to a building right by the entrance to our base, I drop our kids off. However with the new regulations I wouldn't be able to drop them off and make it to quarters on time, since I would be wasting time having to get dressed for work at work; however since there really is no place that would be appropriate for that I guess I will drive down to the closest gym on base and then drive back to work. For those of you that may tell me to drop them off earlier that wouldn't be an option as they are going to a military child development center; which is off base and they are already getting dropped off as soon as it opens now. The old saying of they weren't issue with my c-bag is complete bull as most of the people that quote that are either single or married to civilians and won't have to deal with this issue. I know that this is also going to be an issue for several dual military couples and feel that it should be taken in consideration before they finalize the regulations for wearing the uniforms.

Wah Wah Wah! Hey my husband and I could do it so can you! Is it a pain in the ass yes, but it was regulation so we had to deal with it and so can you!

[Boats/88]

US NAVY PENTAGON!

With the economy and the Navy going to have to cut there budget. I suggest the Navy stop issuing the Navy Cammies.
As you can see on this forum so many are bitching about the wear of the uniform.
I seen nothing wrong witht the dungurees sailors have been wearing them since World War II. They are a working uniform for those on board ship and only to be worn during working hours or duty. If not they should be in uniform of the day. If they are attached to ashore command then they should be wearing the uniform of the day.

The US Navy should cease all wearing of the uniforms immediately. Go back to the dungarees that so many all ready have. Stop the waste of spending tax payers money on uniforms that everyone wants to bitch about. Spend it on something more needed. Like equipment for Sailors over seas fighting in Iraq and Afaganastan.

If the Navy gives in to those who whine about the wearing of their uniform. Then they have defeated the purpose in what is known as the WORKING UTILITY UNIFORM.

[taia12br]

Wah Wah Wah! Hey my husband and I could do it so can you! Is it a pain in the ass yes, but it was regulation so we had to deal with it and so can you!

Right now my husband and I are "dealing with it" and have no issues with the current uniform regulations. To simply state a fact that something needs to be taken into consideration is not crying or whining about the issue that clearly was not well thought out. It is not as if I am complaining that I can't go to Wal-Mart or the Mall to buy shoes. Simply put for those people, because I am sure that I am not the only one with small children, that have kids in daycare or before/after school programs because there kids are too young to stay at home by themselves and catch the bus to school the new regs need to be rethought, because I am sure their shipmates would rather they have the option to just drop their kids off in uniform then have a bunch of people using the "I had to drop my kids off and then go change" as an excuse for them being late everyday because I am sure that is being abused now. As I am sure that you have never seen any resentment between single sailors and married sailors. Cause I never get tired of hearing my single sailors complain about the treatment that my married sailors get, whether it is over pay or even the new paternity leave. Instead of just telling people to "deal with it" if you can't offer a resolution to the problem than why say anything at all. Just deal with it is not an answer that I would give any of the junior sailors that come to me with an issue.

[Boats/88]

Right now my husband and I are "dealing with it" and have no issues with the current uniform regulations. To simply state a fact that something needs to be taken into consideration is not crying or whining about the issue that clearly was not well thought out. It is not as if I am complaining that I can't go to Wal-Mart or the Mall to buy shoes. Simply put for those people, because I am sure that I am not the only one with small children, that have kids in daycare or before/after school programs because there kids are too young to stay at home by themselves and catch the bus to school the new regs need to be rethought, because I am sure their shipmates would rather they have the option to just drop their kids off in uniform then have a bunch of people using the "I had to drop my kids off and then go change" as an excuse for them being late everyday because I am sure that is being abused now. As I am sure that you have never seen any resentment between single sailors and married sailors. Cause I never get tired of hearing my single sailors complain about the treatment that my married sailors get, whether it is over pay or even the new paternity leave. Instead of just telling people to "deal with it" if you can't offer a resolution to the problem than why say anything at all. Just deal with it is not an answer that I would give any of the junior sailors that come to me with an issue.

Acting like you care is not the answer either. In one breath you want the Navy to give you a break because you have kids. In another you say you have no resentment to single sailors. By asking for special privledege to leave your home in uniform to drop your kids off. Is asking for special privlege.
Just deal with it is the answer because it is a regulation that has been set.
Are you telling me that if I do not like something all I have to do is whine to a senior enlisted and they can change the rules for me! I like that.! Who do I see to get some policies changed to fit my needs?

My husband was convicted for crimes he did not commit in the Navy. When he brought evidence to show he did not. Do you know what the navy said to him FROM ADMIRAL GARY ROUGHEAD HIMSELF, ALONG WITH THESE INDIVIDULAS:
CDR Patrick Kelly
MCPO Norman Allen
LT Levy Jag from Navy Legal Everett
ADM Entrye
CAPT Kenneth O'Rourke From Navy Legal Pacific San Diego
LCDR Welsh From Navy Legal Pacific San Diego
NAVY IG

THey told him that since he took the Summary Court Martial he had to deal with it! Meaning even though the investigation they conducted showed he was not guilty they said DEAL WITH IT!

[taia12br]

Acting like you care is not the answer either. In one breath you want the Navy to give you a break because you have kids. In another you say you have no resentment to single sailors. By asking for special privledege to leave your home in uniform to drop your kids off. Is asking for special privlege.
Just deal with it is the answer because it is a regulation that has been set.
Are you telling me that if I do not like something all I have to do is whine to a senior enlisted and they can change the rules for me! I like that.! Who do I see to get some policies changed to fit my needs?

My husband was convicted for crimes he did not commit in the Navy. When he brought evidence to show he did not. Do you know what the navy said to him FROM ADMIRAL GARY ROUGHEAD HIMSELF, ALONG WITH THESE INDIVIDULAS:
CDR Patrick Kelly
MCPO Norman Allen
LT Levy Jag from Navy Legal Everett
ADM Entrye
CAPT Kenneth O'Rourke From Navy Legal Pacific San Diego
LCDR Welsh From Navy Legal Pacific San Diego
NAVY IG

THey told him that since he took the Summary Court Martial he had to deal with it! Meaning even though the investigation they conducted showed he was not guilty they said DEAL WITH IT!

I said I hear resentment from my single sailors about the treatment that my married sailors get because they have issues with married sailors getting paid more for BAH as well as their complaints about the new paternity leave, or why if someone kid is sick that person gets to leave a little earlier to pick them up, and several other things. And regardless of the complaint I have never responded with just deal with it or stop whining. They may not like the answer that I give them but then again I also remind them that when they have their own business to take care of, such as running to the bank, renewing the tags on their cars, etc.. that I do all that I can to make sure that they have to chance to handle their business even if it means that they have to leave early. The regs allow you to leave home in uniform just not to stop. I do not tell my junior sailors to just deal with their issues because that is the quickest way to end up before my chain of command to explain why one of my sailor's issue become an issue for the command and why it was not handled at the lowest level possible.

The current regulations allow for dropping your kids off, getting gas, etc... If the the new uniforms are suppose to be replacing the current utilities, which for some shore commands that is the uniform of the day, why not keep the same restrictions, why be stricter. As long as the sailor's uniform is clean and worn correctly, why does it matter if he or she stops for gas, runs into the bank, or pick up their kids from school. To voice my opinion about the regulations is just that [U]my opinion[U]. The last time that I checked this was a discussion forum and not a debate. So please stop using it as an excuse to direct your hostilities toward anyone that disagrees with anything that you think.

[Boats/88]

I said I hear resentment from my single sailors about the treatment that my married sailors get because they have issues with married sailors getting paid more for BAH as well as their complaints about the new paternity leave, or why if someone kid is sick that person gets to leave a little earlier to pick them up, and several other things. And regardless of the complaint I have never responded with just deal with it or stop whining. They may not like the answer that I give them but then again I also remind them that when they have their own business to take care of, such as running to the bank, renewing the tags on their cars, etc.. that I do all that I can to make sure that they have to chance to handle their business even if it means that they have to leave early. The regs allow you to leave home in uniform just not to stop. I do not tell my junior sailors to just deal with their issues because that is the quickest way to end up before my chain of command to explain why one of my sailor's issue become an issue for the command and why it was not handled at the lowest level possible.

The current regulations allow for dropping your kids off, getting gas, etc... If the the new uniforms are suppose to be replacing the current utilities, which for some shore commands that is the uniform of the day, why not keep the same restrictions, why be stricter. As long as the sailor's uniform is clean and worn correctly, why does it matter if he or she stops for gas, runs into the bank, or pick up their kids from school. To voice my opinion about the regulations is just that [U]my opinion[U]. The last time that I checked this was a discussion forum and not a debate. So please stop using it as an excuse to direct your hostilities toward anyone that disagrees with anything that you think.


because I am sure that I am not the only one with small children, that have kids in daycare or before/after school programs because there kids are too young to stay at home by themselves and catch the bus to school the new regs need to be rethought,

The above quote is not your opinion. It is anger that you can not drop your kids off at day care in the working cammies.


The current regulations allow for dropping your kids off, getting gas, etc

The above statment is not a opinion. It is anger because the Navy changed regulations on the wear of the working cammies.


As long as the sailor's uniform is clean and worn correctly, why does it matter if he or she stops for gas, runs into the bank, or pick up their kids from school.

Definition of Navy Working Utilites!
3. OCCASION FOR WEAR. THE NWU IS DESIGNED TO BE WORN IN ENVIRONMENTS
(AT SEA AND ASHORE) THAT DO NOT REQUIRE SPECIAL CLOTHING (E.G. FLIGHT,
FLIGHT DECK, ENGINE ROOM, ETC.).
UNLESS OTHERWISE PRESCRIBED BY THE REGIONAL COMMANDER, THE NWU IS
AUTHORIZED TO BE WORN AT ALL FACILITIES ON BASE, WHILE COMMUTING
TO/FROM WORK AND HOME VIA POV OR PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION, AND ON
GOVERNMENT/MILITARY CONTRACTED FLIGHTS TO OR FROM OCONUS LOCATIONS.
ROUTINE STOPS WHILE COMMUTING ARE NOT AUTHORIZED.
GENUINE EMERGENCIES, SUCH AS MEDICAL AND VEHICLE BREAKDOWNS, ARE THE
ONLY AUTHORIZED STOPS.
I would say that the above statement is more then accomodating. You can get dressed at home and arrive
to your command wearing your uniform.

As you said above. Giving Married or single parents with children the ability to drop thier kids off in uniform
would not be acceptable to single sailors who want to stop at the mall, or bank etc.
If the rules are bent for these individuals. Then they have to bent for everyone!


I do not tell my junior sailors to just deal with their issues because that is the quickest way to end up before my chain of command to explain why one of my sailor's issue become an issue for the command and why it was not handled at the lowest level possible.

Deal with it is a expression! I believe you know that and you have taken everything I have said to the extreme of hatred. I too have the right to voice my opinion. This is a discussion and I have the right just like anyone else to express it in any way I choose.
My husband and I had to drop our kids off and go to the Command to change into the uniform of the day. It was a pain in the ass. Do you know how we resolved the issue? We got up earlier 4:00 AM and found a day care that had earlier drop offs.
Not only that the day care center even opened their doors earlier for those of us in the military. When things changed we even found a different day care provider.
I would suggest you ask your command to help with your situation. Or maybe you can find a new day care center that can take your children earlier. There is also the option of one of the Navy’s home daycare providers. I know for a fact they take children early because I was one of those home providers myself.
Although your opinion would make it easier for you! There are many ways you can help yourself in this situation.

[jerpil]

Even though I am retired from the Navy I have been following the changes in the uniform debate. I understand back when I was in the old dungs were not to be worn offbase. Now to me the reason for the change to the new NWUs was to give sailors a better uniform to wear and a uniform that would be professional enough to be worn offbase. The whole idea to me was to make sailors more professional and to make them seen as equals with the other uniformed services. The fact that sailors can't wear the new NWUs offbase even for a temporary stop seems petty at most. Why even have a NWU type of uniform in the first place? Seems like the sailors are being babied again.:confused:

[DAYOTA03]

Been wear testing the Khami Uni and honestly it is not bad. It is comfortable and relatively easy to wear. Now for my opinion: The Navy went to alot of trouble and expense to create this uniform. It seems that the Navy was seeking to improve the uniform and make it something Sailors would be proud to wear. It is an impressive uniform and I think the Navy should explain the reasoning behind the no public use rule or change it. Back in the day dungarees looked like prison uniforms and stood out in public as though they were. The carry over of the same rules to the utilities was just that, a hold over from old rules. If I am correct, the Navy also said that it wanted to align with the sister services with its own version of the Khami. To role it out and be this tight with the rules is a let down to the Sailors the Navy sold this uniform to. Hopefully the wear rules change to align with the other services.

[taia12br]

My husband and I had to drop our kids off and go to the Command to change into the uniform of the day. It was a pain in the ass. Do you know how we resolved the issue? We got up earlier 4:00 AM and found a day care that had earlier drop offs.
Not only that the day care center even opened their doors earlier for those of us in the military. When things changed we even found a different day care provider.
I would suggest you ask your command to help with your situation. Or maybe you can find a new day care center that can take your children earlier. There is also the option of one of the Navy’s home daycare providers. I know for a fact they take children early because I was one of those home providers myself.
Although your opinion would make it easier for you! There are many ways you can help yourself in this situation.

And what about everyone else. Not all day cares are willing to open their doors early. Not everyone can afford to just move their kids to another daycare. And the reason that Navy home daycare is called an option is because it is just that an option. Not everyone is comfortable with their children being in home day cares. My opinion does not just make things easier for me when I stated my opinion I had others in mind. I have no doubt that my chain of command would allow me to be late however as I stated before if my shipmates are there at a certain time I feel that I should be there as well. My opinion stated that I have no personal problem with not being able to make other stops however I also stated that as long as a uniform is clean and worn correctly I don't see why it matters if a sailor stops for gas or runs into a bank. I stated my opinion because I feel that not just myself but others would benefit from the regs allowing for sailors to wear their uniforms off base.

I have not taken anything in extreme hatred I have only responded back to your constant lashing out at me for having an opinion that differs from your own. This was your first response to my opinion "Wah Wah Wah! Hey my husband and I could do it so can you! Is it a pain in the ass yes, but it was regulation so we had to deal with it and so can you!" Your first response to my opinion was that I was whining and I should just deal with as you have. Like I said this was a discussion forum and not a debate. So please stop using it as an excuse to direct your hostilities toward anyone that disagrees with anything that you think.

[Boats/88]

And what about everyone else. Not all day cares are willing to open their doors early. Not everyone can afford to just move their kids to another daycare. And the reason that Navy home daycare is called an option is because it is just that an option. Not everyone is comfortable with their children being in home day cares. My opinion does not just make things easier for me when I stated my opinion I had others in mind. I have no doubt that my chain of command would allow me to be late however as I stated before if my shipmates are there at a certain time I feel that I should be there as well. My opinion stated that I have no personal problem with not being able to make other stops however I also stated that as long as a uniform is clean and worn correctly I don't see why it matters if a sailor stops for gas or runs into a bank. I stated my opinion because I feel that not just myself but others would benefit from the regs allowing for sailors to wear their uniforms off base.

I have not taken anything in extreme hatred I have only responded back to your constant lashing out at me for having an opinion that differs from your own. This was your first response to my opinion "Wah Wah Wah! Hey my husband and I could do it so can you! Is it a pain in the ass yes, but it was regulation so we had to deal with it and so can you!" Your first response to my opinion was that I was whining and I should just deal with as you have. Like I said this was a discussion forum and not a debate. So please stop using it as an excuse to direct your hostilities toward anyone that disagrees with anything that you think.

Here is something to ponder about?
Did you ever once ask yourself why the military has asked sailors not to wear the uniform in public.
We live in a world that now has many who hate Americans and would like nothing more then to wipe them off the face of the earth.
Sometimes wearing your uniform in public makes you a target that others would like to harm.
Wearing your uniform in public can in these day and ages harm not only you, but others around you.
Did you ever consider the fact the military asked you not wear these unifroms to protect each military member from harm. Not only you, but anyone that may be around you.
I know it is a awlful thing to say. But did you forget about 911. Did you forget about the USS Cole.
Did you forget the bombing in Beriut of the military barracks.
Wear your uniform with pride and honor.
Wear your uniform with the regulations set fourth.
In todays world. It may just save your life!
Just a note.
When I served on active duty wearing the uniform was even required when going on leave!
That all changed when the world changed and wanted to harm those who wear the US MILITARY UNIFORM!
Some times it is not wise to question some decisions, it is just better to obey them.

[irrenarzt]

The regulations for utilities/dungarees made sense because the uniform was ugly and didn't have a professional military look. Personally, even if I had the option of wearing those in public, I wouldn't simply because it's embarrassing. Who honestly enjoys or takes pride in looking like a janitor or escaped inmate? Who wants the average civilian to have that image of our Navy?

If the regulations do stick, then it doesn't make sense. You actually have a sharp, professional military look and feel when wearing these... So why hide it? Why be embarrassed? The reason for being ashamed and not wanting to cast a negative image of the Navy is gone.

However, it seems to me like everyone is making a big deal out of nothing... Maybe my reading comprehension skills suck, but what I got out of reading the article is that these rules aren't permanent. These are just rules for the transition period when sailors who have never worn BDU's before, learn to wear their new uniform properly... which makes sense. There's no point of getting a new working uniform that looks sharp, if Seaman Dicknut doesn't know what he's doing with something like the blousing straps and wears it like a chode (you can't tell me everyone in the Navy is smart enough to be able to dress themselves correctly without a little training)... hence the grace period.

[GUNMATE1]

I've heard no explaination WHY we need these new uniforms and WHOSE idea it was. Is this a retention effort to console those who complain about the current "gas station" uniform? Are they happier now? And what is the need for a navy camouflage uniform anyway? Khakis were orignially intended as a desert camouflage uniform - that make sense. A blue camouflage uniform doesnt make sense on a ship! What about deployed Sailors? I am currently an IA with the Marines in Iraq. Im wearing their uniform - no problem! Also, can someone explain the planning that goes into these new uniforms? A lot of planning was given to the new Navy PT gear but, looked what happened when that roled out. It was also a disaster. It seems like no planning went into this and the Fleet wasnt given much of a say in this decision. We may have also become the laughing stock among the other services - at least for all those who I've heard commenting on our new "cammie" uniform. I hardly think this will help retention efforts. Was there any thought into making this an "OPTIONAL" uniform to fulfill whatever situation requires a blue cammie uniform rather than REPLACING uniforms the rest of us are ok with? It is not needed on ships; it's not needed with the Marines; WHO NEEDS IT? It seems rather silly when we're at war and the economy is in the dump to be worried about what we're wearing!

Apparently, you have been in the desert to long. If you actually looked and read all of the NAVADMINs that have come out regarding this uniform you would know that this is not a recruiting push. This was a result of the fleet saying they wanted 1 uniform to replace all the others that we wear. It was a 2 year test. While in the desert you will wear a DCU version of the new NWU and the same for woodland, which if you notice mimics that of the marine corps. You should really do your research before you post a blog here. Not everything that the navy has ever done is the greatest because they really havent spoken to the fleet sailors. The PT uniform was barely talked about before it came out to the exchanges. There was no real test phase for that and they didnt get any opinions from the fleet. Oh and you mention the current economic crisis. YOUR WITH A MARINE UNIT. You chose that path in your career. And you only get one clothing allowance. So well you can either stick with the Navy uniforms or the Marines. But you can't flip flop. So choose one or the other. So when you decide to go back to the fleet you will have a choice to make. Stay with a Marine unit or go back to the fleet and wear the new uniforms, both the SU and NWU.

I would just like to add for everyone, i know this is a blog but please do the research, its really not that hard there is at least one site out there other than NPC that posts information on the new uniforms. So Please please look the stuff up if your going to say or speak about the unifom.

Also it is up to us now that we know the schedule to push our chains of command to let us wear the new uniforms. If we all can get our Chains to allow us to wear the uniforms then maybe NEXCOM will do something about getting the uniforms out to the fleet faster. I know right now we can't change what the navy wants to do regarding the wear. But hopefully if the fleet speaks up, we can truly make a difference.

[Yggdrasil]

I don't want to say that these rules are idiotic, as the criteria for something to be idiotic would be that no rational thought was put into the decision.

On the contrary, I believe that the powers that be knew fully well what they were doing: handing Sailors the rope, hoping that some will hang themselves. If the uniform cannot be worn off base, then they should just go ahead and align the rules for the NWU with those of the coveralls; i.e., limit the wear of the NWU to the pier (or building that the Sailor works in, if on shore duty). If the Sailor needs to conduct business elsewhere on base, then they should be required wear the NSU (Don't get me wrong, I'd like to be able to wear the NWU off-base - or, at least, keep the same rules for our current utilities - but if they're going to be more restrictive on something, then the least they could do to help Sailors out is make the rule more difficult to break). In theory, under what I'm suggesting, it would be impossible to go off base in the NWU since you wouldn't make it off the pier in them. But, allowing Sailors to wear this uniform anywhere on base is that very rope that the powers that be are hoping that Sailors hang themselves with.

[Battleshort]

What exactly is your problem? You are lashing out simply because you managed to "deal with it". Why not try to make the situation better so in the future people don't have to deal with it. Seriously why not yank the over sized board that is up your back side out, pull your head out of the sand, and actually see the forest for the trees. You might actually sound less like a whiny bitch, and more like an intelligent person who has something to contribute vice tearing everyone elses option down.

...and you are lashing out simply because you CAN'T deal with it.

[forcedj]

Here is something to ponder about?
Did you ever once ask yourself why the military has asked sailors not to wear the uniform in public. We live in a world that now has many who hate Americans and would like nothing more then to wipe them off the face of the earth. Sometimes wearing your uniform in public makes you a target that others would like to harm. Wearing your uniform in public can in these day and ages harm not only you, but others around you...

Come on Kellie...that reasoning doesn't make sense. Not stateside anyway. There's no such restriction on wearing dress or undress uniforms for personal safety so why would they have one for working uniforms? Overseas your point would be valid; in most places you're not allowed to wear ANY uniform off base unless you're on official duty. And even then you're sometimes not allowed to. The reason the new digital blue cammie working uniforms are not being allowed off base is the same as it was for dungarees and after them the utilities uniform: They don't want dirty, soiled uniforms out in public. The problem is, they have to make it an across the board policy because there are many rates/billets/positions that get their working uniforms dirty on a daily basis because of their working conditions. Places like ship bilges, flight deck catapult troughs, SEABEE construction zones, etc. Sure, you and I can no doubt police our own uniform cleanliness and know what should and shouldn’t be worn out in public. But, many sailors can’t. So, instead of creating controversy due to an arbitrarily enforced policy from command to command...they just say no working uniforms in public.

Dan

[VAQ308]

This is only a question of LEADERSHIP!

The SAILORs that carry out the day to day operations of the Navy are E1 through E6. We should be given all due respect as any other Warrior.

Each week the Navy Times prints stories of senior officers that have been removed for lack of LEADERSHIP.. This seems to be that someone in the senior level of command would like to go back to the 1700's.

Todays Enlisted Ranks are the best educated and trained SAILORs in our history.

The Navy Times needs to step up and support the SAILORs to be treated with all due RESPECT!!!

[fenway]

from what I have read... the navy will revisit the policy after it is implemented. in the future you should be able to wear it out with less restrictions

but I have to say that they are paying for the uniforms they are giving, life ain't that bad

[jason lennen]

Sailors blast wear rules for blue cammies

By Mark D. Faram - Staff writer
Posted : Tuesday Dec 16, 2008 18:09:14 EST

Sailors are lashing out at the Navy’s tough new uniform regulations, which say that sailors wearing the new Navy Working Uniform won’t be allowed to get out of their cars while driving to and from work unless it’s an emergency.

The new rules are more restrictive than the regs covering the to-be-replaced utilities and wash khakis, as well as the current woodland cammies and flight suits.

Current uniform regulations allow sailors to make brief stops — such as pumping gas, picking up prescriptions and dropping off kids at day care — in the current uniforms. None of this will be allowed once sailors and officers begin wearing the Navy Working Uniform, which will be available to purchase in the Norfolk, Va., area next month.

Within 24 hours of posting a short news story on the restrictions and soliciting feedback, Navy Times received more than 40 e-mails from sailors and officers expressing outrage over the decision to tighten the rules.

“This is beyond ridiculous,” wrote Fire Controlman 2nd Class (SW/AW) Jason McKeever, who works aboard the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln. “The fact that every other service [except the Marine Corps] authorizes their service members to wear their working uniforms to places like grocery stores or the mall just shows how out of touch the Navy officials are.”

The Navy announced its rollout schedule and rules for wear Dec. 2.

At the time of the message’s release, Navy officials told Navy Times that the commuting rules for the NWU were identical to the rules for all current working uniforms. Those officials have since corrected themselves, saying that the current rules for utilities and wash khakis do allow for brief stops.

Navy Times, on Tuesday morning, requested further clarification on the reason for the rule change from the office of the Chief of Naval Operations.

The rule change will likely cause problems for deck-plate leaders who need to enforce them.

That’s because once the NWU begins its two-year rollout, there will be two sets of uniform rules on the street — one for the NWU, authorizing no routine stops, and the current, and more liberal, rules for the rest of the uniforms.

“I personally cannot understand why we are going so high and right, because it will cause more confusion … and I feel this will only drive the desire to wear the NWU to be even less,” said Command Master Chief (SW/AW) Michael Napier, senior enlisted sailor at Strike Fighter Squadron 27 at Naval Air Facility Atsugi, Japan.

Napier says uniform regs are already tough enough for him and other chiefs to enforce, and having two standards will only make that even tougher to enforce.

“I already face it working on a naval air station with air crews wanting to wear flight suits to everything short of the Navy Ball. As a black-shoe snipe, it drives me nuts — so I see the NWU being nothing but an uphill battle.”

Tell us what you think
Navy Times wants to hear from sailors about the stringent new policy. Do you support it, or do you think it's not practical? How will this impact your life?

I also feel that this decision is totally impractical. What is so wrong with sailors showing themselves in public wearing something respectable and having some pride in themselves, their country, and having a high morale about being a part of the U.S.NAVY! It would be so nice to be able to leave work and not have to worry about not being able to stop here or there. I see soldiers constantly wearing their BDU's out in town and wish that I and my shipmates could experience that same freedom and and feel that same PRIDE of "being a sailor", somewhere where it feels nice to be seen in uniform, not just on base with hundreds of other people who see it day-to-day and could care less. AM2(AW) Jason Lennen

[ElectricElvis]

OK, first off, I have to say that a lot of you guys are making very good points.

The grace period for teaching all us prior salts how to wear the new uniform before letting us wear it in public is a good idea. This lets us all get the hang of the new wear rules, and get on the same page so it looks uniformly sharp, no matter who's wearing it.

Also, the argument that it's an anti-terrorism policy has merit. We in the military are given training on how to blend in when we're not on duty, especially when we travel. We are openly discouraged from wearing uniforms when flying. So limiting the wear of the new uniform outside of base is an understandable precaution, especially while the chain of command assesses the potential for terrorist backlash.

One thing that has been incompletely addressed (so far as I have seen) is the economic effect. Yes, the taxpayers are paying for the new uniforms. Yes, current sailors are being given allowances to purchase the new uniforms, out of the Navy's budget. Yes, the economy is in the dumster. Here's the part everyone has failed to point out. All US Military uniforms are made in the US. The new uniform will be a MASSIVE amount of money going towards JOBS in the factories, the exchanges who will have to hire at least temp help to keep up with the demand, the shipping companies who will move the new uniforms to the exchanges, etc. You can't stimulate an economy by refusing to spend money, that just makes it stagnant, because nothing moves. The Navy's new uniforms will generate jobs, support industry, and HELP the economy. And how many people are disciplined enough to go shopping for a major set of uniforms and buy ONLY the uniforms?? We'll buy other things, too, when we get hungry and grab that soda and candy bar at the checkout line, and single sailors might go to the attached Subway for a meal while waiting for the bus.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: with a static organization (such as the Navy), any change takes a long time to execute. It has to be proposed, studied, carefully considered, decided, rules outlined, planned, and then executed. This is one of those big changes in a big organization. And when the dust settles on our uniform shift, perhaps they will loosen the rules a bit to match the utilities, but I'm not going to hold my breath. I haven't been holding my breath so far, and thank God, because four years (the time since I learned of the impending change) is a long time to hold one's breath.

I will learn how to wear it properly (some of it probably the hard way), and I will wear it with pride. Pride for the jobs it will support, the cashflow it will generate in the economy, and that the chain of command has decided to give me something nice. This is rare, so I don't scoff at it; besides, it's probably going to be warmer than what I'm wearing now.

[ET1(SS) Keith]

As you said above. Giving Married or single parents with children the ability to drop thier kids off in uniform
would not be acceptable to single sailors who want to stop at the mall, or bank etc.
If the rules are bent for these individuals. Then they have to bent for everyone!


Are you kidding me? REALLY? Childcare equals buying shoes to some people? I'm unmarried with no kids, and even I can understand that if somebody has to work and they have kids, then it's probably a better idea to leave the kids with a babysitter or childcare than to leave them at home alone. I really can't believe that there are some single sailors that fail to grasp the responsibility that's attached with parenthood. I'll cut short my rant to touch on the topic at hand. I think that "Big Navy" is trying to fix something that works. Usually, when that happens, you'll wind up having to fix something that USED to work. I really can't believe that there are Sailors out there that are so lazy that they complained about having to maintain uniforms. Is it really that hard to wash and iron a uniform? Even a Submariner (and we're notorious for having bad uniforms) can do basic simple maintenance on our non-utility uniforms when the occasion calls for it, and still have a presentable uniforms. Now we get this (IMO) horrendous looking uniform, why? "It's maintenance free and hides stains." Way to encourage our lazy dirtbag shipmates. The Navy will give us all new uniforms because you complained that you're too lazy to take care of the ones you have now and have some pride in what you do. And I'm willing to bet that most of those people that complained about the uniforms in the first place are out of the military now.

[DJTIESK]

I guess I just dont understand the reasoning behind the restrictions. I believe that one of the biggest complaints when this whole "task force uniform" started was that Sailors wanted a working uniform that they could commute in, AND wear out in town for functions, i.e. luncheons, going-aways, etc. Wasnt the purpose of all those questionaires to get input like this? And what was it all for if Big Navy is ignoring it?

[YomanDenver]

Oh, and if that's how they did things in the 80's then it must be the right way to do it.

Yeah, isn't that when they came up with that whole Zero Tolerance policy because of the excessive drug use? Not disagreeing with your comment, just adding to it.

What really irritates me though is when I see Air Force or even Navy personnel out in town in their flight suits, that if you ask me, look far worse than this new uniform. Why such strict rules for a uniform that costs so much I'll be afraid to sit down in it?

The military's best advertising capability is any servicemember in their uniform. Regardless of the uniform they'll always get stopped out in town and thanked or people will stare. I think the Navy finally has come into the 21st century with a uniform that appeals to a broader group of people, but they're not wanting it out in the open, like they're ashamed of it.

[forcedj]

The military's best advertising capability is any servicemember in their uniform. Regardless of the uniform they'll always get stopped out in town and thanked or people will stare.



I only partially agree with that. A sailor seen out about town in his/her well cared for dress uniform is good advertisment. But a sailor in a dirty, paint stained, greasy utility/working uniform at the 7-11 isn't going to get people rushing to the recruiting office.

Dan

[YomanDenver]

I only partially agree with that. A sailor seen out about town in his/her well cared for dress uniform is good advertisment. But a sailor in a dirty, paint stained, greasy utility/working uniform at the 7-11 isn't going to get people rushing to the recruiting office.

Dan

True, and that's the sad part. You've got a better chance at seeing a dirtbag Sailor than you do seeing one that keeps their uniform looking new.

[hallj14]

Wow, never knew the Navy had such tough restrictions on uniform wear. As an Air Force dude, I can see both sides of the argument here. For me if I need make a run to Walmart, the Mall or anywhere that will take longer than 5 minutes I go home and change before running those errands, but not havng the option to make a quick stop to pick up kids, grab some milk, bread or even gas? That kinda sucks and I feel for y'all.

[DCMAYES]

:thumbdown
Its a more step backward for the Navy. I always remember having to change 10 times a day to do anything didnt like it.Its more nad for E6 and below
Its not like we are wearing those horibble Dungarees prison uniforms. Thats what the the original reason we couldnt wear those in public do to getting confused with escape prisoners. I see nothing wrong with these. The Navy just took one step ahead and two steps back

[GIORGIM]

First, when I wore dungarees, I and everyone else drove to work in civilian clothes, changed, and reversed the process on the way home. Eveyone did it, it wasn't hard.

Second, that it wasn't hard isn't really the point. The new uniform itself looks sharp, but the implementation has been poor. The reality that changing uniforms isn't hard to do is overwhelmed by the perception that the new uniform regulations are in place just to make things harder when they could make things easier by simply changing some words on some pieces of paper. That the people implementing the new uniform policy didn't foresee this happening indicates that they may have been the wrong people to implement it.

Change NWU policy to make it commensurate with USA and USAF policy for similar uniforms.

We have always had too many uniforms, our seabags from junior enlisted to senior officer are far too large for shipboard use. If we're not going to get rid of uniforms, the least we could do is to decide prior to each deployment what the minimum uniform requirement is, put it out, and expect no more. Do I really need mess dress blue and white, sword, SDB, choker whites, summer whites, winter blues, khakis, wash khakis (not for long), NWU, and flight suits on every cruise? Why can't it be flight suits, NWU, and SDB - done?

Reduce the seabag by half or put out a predeployment list of uniforms that is as short as practical and stick to it. Other services manage to put out a list far enough in advance that their members can pack a bag 6 months ahead of time, grab it and go when the time comes to deploy. Easy. Anyone can do it. We should do it. The old ways are not always the best ways.

[NMWH1985]

As a former Sailor, current ROTC Cadet/Reserve Soldier, I don't think you guys want to be able to wear these things to the mall.

Gas and grocery stops are one thing.

Nothing chaps my ass more than to see some fat soldier walking around, or some pregnant soldier walking around in her ACU's, or some brokedick private walking around the mall with a soft shoe profile. Or some asshole eating at the food court in their PT's.

You guys don't want to open up that can of worms.

[forcedj]

If we're not going to get rid of uniforms, the least we could do is to decide prior to each deployment what the minimum uniform requirement is, put it out, and expect no more. ...

Reduce the seabag by half or put out a predeployment list of uniforms that is as short as practical and stick to it.

That was done for every deployment I made during my 20+ years.




… or some pregnant soldier walking around in her ACU's...



Aww geez…why’d ya have to go and say that. Are you implying that female soldiers/sailors shouldn’t be allowed to get pregnant?

Dan

[YomanDenver]

As a former Sailor, current ROTC Cadet/Reserve Soldier, I don't think you guys want to be able to wear these things to the mall.

Gas and grocery stops are one thing.

Nothing chaps my ass more than to see some fat soldier walking around, or some pregnant soldier walking around in her ACU's, or some brokedick private walking around the mall with a soft shoe profile. Or some asshole eating at the food court in their PT's.

You guys don't want to open up that can of worms.

I'm not looking to jump right into liberty with my uniform still on after a long day of work. Case in point, I wear my utilities to work pretty much every day. I'm a "paper pusher" so my uniform is always impeccable. If I need to run to Wal-Mart or Target or anywhere outside of the base after work just to pick something up real quick, I can't. So I go home...change and run my errands. What makes me mad is seeing Air Force or Army or even Marines who just got off work and there they are in their uniform (not Class A's or whatever they're called) doing their shopping.

I think if I saw someone in their uniform, that wasn't their dress uniform, at the mall I would be inclined to stop them and tell them they needed to leave. I wouldn't ask a pregnant female to leave simply because she was pregnant, that would be just rude. People need to stop and think first before leaving work, or their house.

[vs-41]

When I was in the Navy in 1973-1977, stationed in San Diego Ca. the civilians hated us so bad, we were not allowed to wear any uniform off base, unless we were going to the air port to catch a flight. so I don't understand what the big deal is about the new working uniform.

[CAPT K]

I have to agree with a need for ALL of the services to tighten their rules on wearing the working uniforms everywhere other than at work. The Army frequently offers up the best "worst" example of BDU abuse. I have even seen soldiers wearing utilities while skiing. OK, it's probably fine to wear the working uniform to stop for gas travelling to and from work but forget about the Mall. Service members should be considering the reputation of their respective services... your employer. Soldiers may be seen on any given day, during working hours, watching movies and walking endlessly in the Cross Creek Mall near Ft Bragg, NC. I've heard many people ask if the Army actually works. Do the Navy a favor. Wear your civilian clothes to the mall, the movies, etc. It's your working uniform NOT your pajamas.

[hallj14]

The Navy needs to lighten up. I don't go to Walmart or Target, or grocery shop in my BDU/ACU/ABU. But I do make quick stops to get gas, milk, or whatever and I am always greeted with a THANKS FOR WHAT YOU DO from those in the store. The American people love to see our Military folks, the Navy is missing out on what a great feeling it is to have some stranger say Thanks.

[NMWH1985]

That was done for every deployment I made during my 20+ years.



Aww geez…why’d ya have to go and say that. Are you implying that female soldiers/sailors shouldn’t be allowed to get pregnant?

Dan

No, not saying that.

But seeing a fat pregnant woman walking around in sneakers and ACU's isn't exactly what I see when I think "warfighter."

If the uniform is to be seen in public, it should be worn by somebody who would make a 10 year old kid want to join the military and go kill terrorists.

[forcedj]

...I have even seen soldiers wearing utilities while skiing.



In defense of this activity, I have a friend who is currently an active duty Army officer. He’s a Ranger and before he went back on full-time active duty, he was a reservist attached to 10th Mountain Division. As mountain rangers they were/are required to maintain a proficiency in downhill skiing. On their drill weekends, as part of his unit’s ‘official’ duties, they would frequently hit the slopes in New England and ski in their BDUs, (unloaded) weapon, and field packs.

Dan

[jeffersj]

I have to agree with a need for ALL of the services to tighten their rules on wearing the working uniforms everywhere other than at work. The Army frequently offers up the best "worst" example of BDU abuse. I have even seen soldiers wearing utilities while skiing. OK, it's probably fine to wear the working uniform to stop for gas travelling to and from work but forget about the Mall. Service members should be considering the reputation of their respective services... your employer. Soldiers may be seen on any given day, during working hours, watching movies and walking endlessly in the Cross Creek Mall near Ft Bragg, NC. I've heard many people ask if the Army actually works. Do the Navy a favor. Wear your civilian clothes to the mall, the movies, etc. It's your working uniform NOT your pajamas.

I'll concur with this so long as the policies are uniform across the board - by that I mean the Army, Navy, etc., have the same policies on wearing working uniforms to/from work. Otherwise, it looks like we don't have our collective act together.

As for the skiing, I can see that as you fight like you train, train like you fight. I think ForceDJ addressed that one. In my case sir, you would have had an issue seeing me running at my HS track in combat boots and BDU trousers/cap as well. Again, training. In this case, PT.

[johnnieh]

This arguement about the cammies is not about changing work clothes at work. The problem is that this uniform is replacing more than just the summer whites and winter blues but also the utilities and khaki uniforms for CPO's and officers. The argument is we have uniforms that we now can wear out in town to conduct personal business but now this when the cammies come into effect for a specific region, we will be able to wear our uniform to and from work and conduct offical business on base only.

In my opinion, this is once again failure of the Senior Naval Leadership to fully take the appropriate action. This is just like when we went from dungarees to utilities. The utilities were touted that we will be more professional looking and be able to wear them out in town. Did that happen, no. More recent failure of the Uniform Board is the PTU. Great idea, however, bad design and material. The shirt does "whisk away moisture", however, stores that moisture in the shirt. I have Nike and Reebok dry fit shirts and none of them hold the moisture like the PTU shirt.

Look at the other services, Air Force and the Army allow them to wear their cammies. The Coast Guard allows their sailors to wear coveralls out in town. This policy, if not corrected, will result in the failure to respect the uniform. Let the Chiefs Quarters do their job and enforce the proper wear of the cammies. Stop taking away the authority and the added ability of accountability of the CPO's. Because now here is the senario, sailors are leaving the ship during all hours of the day in civilian clothes. Work is not getting done in the eyes of the upper chain of command. The CPO's are going to have to answer the question of where is all his people. Causing CPO's to keep an accurate and up to the minute up to date muster of all his personnel. Which causes, additional workload, manhours expended. Quit treating us like children and like grown adults.

Fix the policy now. It is not a hard uniform to wear correctly. Let us show the pride of wearing the new US Navy Uniform to the public. Let us make the difference.

[jeffersj]

This arguement about the cammies is not about changing work clothes at work. The problem is that this uniform is replacing more than just the summer whites and winter blues but also the utilities and khaki uniforms for CPO's and officers. The argument is we have uniforms that we now can wear out in town to conduct personal business but now this when the cammies come into effect for a specific region, we will be able to wear our uniform to and from work and conduct offical business on base only.

In my opinion, this is once again failure of the Senior Naval Leadership to fully take the appropriate action. This is just like when we went from dungarees to utilities. The utilities were touted that we will be more professional looking and be able to wear them out in town. Did that happen, no. More recent failure of the Uniform Board is the PTU. Great idea, however, bad design and material. The shirt does "whisk away moisture", however, stores that moisture in the shirt. I have Nike and Reebok dry fit shirts and none of them hold the moisture like the PTU shirt.

Look at the other services, Air Force and the Army allow them to wear their cammies. The Coast Guard allows their sailors to wear coveralls out in town. This policy, if not corrected, will result in the failure to respect the uniform. Let the Chiefs Quarters do their job and enforce the proper wear of the cammies. Stop taking away the authority and the added ability of accountability of the CPO's. Because now here is the senario, sailors are leaving the ship during all hours of the day in civilian clothes. Work is not getting done in the eyes of the upper chain of command. The CPO's are going to have to answer the question of where is all his people. Causing CPO's to keep an accurate and up to the minute up to date muster of all his personnel. Which causes, additional workload, manhours expended. Quit treating us like children and like grown adults.

Fix the policy now. It is not a hard uniform to wear correctly. Let us show the pride of wearing the new US Navy Uniform to the public. Let us make the difference.

Incorrect.

The uniforms being replaced by the NWU are the Utility and Working Khaki uniforms. E-6 and below Summer White/Winter Blue uniforms are being phased out with the new service uniform.

I will agree with the comment about the rules for wearing them off-base. Seems like the most casual observer would have used the same rules that are currently in effect.

As to the issue about keeping track of people during the day, that has nothing to do with the subject of uniforms. Keeping track of your Sailors goes back to the days when more than one person got in a boat and started rowing.

[Yggdrasil]

Fix the policy now. It is not a hard uniform to wear correctly. Let us show the pride of wearing the new US Navy Uniform to the public. Let us make the difference.

On another note, I thought that the NWU was going to be a uniform that the Navy was going to put even more pride into - for example, walking into any command and seeing photo portraits of the chain of command, Sailor of the Year, etc in their NWU's - just like ALL of the other services do. From the looks of it, that probably won't happen either.

[Sheren]

After having read through most of this thread, there is one thing that baffles me. Why are there so many people on here that are no longer in the Navy debating the merits of this rule? This is a uniform you will never wear. What happened twenty years ago really has no bearing on this. The only way I can see you having a leg to stand on is if you are actually part of the uniform change process. It's a little ridiculous to be telling a sailor who will be affected by this to put up and shut up when you are long past the time when this matters in your day to day life.

I personally am not really worried about it because it's my husband who will wear it, not me. If he has a strong opinion on the rules, he is the one who needs to be complaining and/or defending them, not me.

[dulatice]

The following story illustrates on why it is important for the Navy to set the reasonable wear policy one time, and one time only:
---
Monkey Experiment Proves Corporate Policy Process

Start with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside the cage, hang a banana on a string and place a set of stairs under it. Before long, a monkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana. As soon as he touches the stairs, spray all of the other monkeys with cold water. After a while, another monkey makes an attempt with the same result, and all the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water. Pretty soon the monkeys will try to prevent it.

Now, put away the cold water. Remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all of the other monkeys attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.

Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and replace it with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm! Likewise, replace a third original monkey with a new one, then a fourth, then the fifth.

Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs, he is attacked. Most of the monkeys that are beating him have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs or why they are participating in the beating of the newest monkey. After replacing all the original monkeys, none of the remaining monkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again approaches the stairs to try for the banana. Why not? Because as far as they know that’s the way it’s always been done around here.

And that, my friends, is how a company policy begins.
----
I have seen MANY examples of this in my time in the Navy, and the new uniform regs may just be another example. If nothing else, they should allow local commanders to determine appropriate wear locations. For example, at the base I am stationed at (which has an upper and lower portion), coveralls are allowed to be worn on lower base near the waterfront, but not on upper base. Big Navy didn't make that decision, the local command did. If Big Navy sets a strict policy now, regardless on what is "promised", the issue will most likely not be revisited, since there are more important things to worry about than sailor's whining about uniforms and broken promises. Promises like that have a 4 year shelf life, and it isn't really a promise since it is going down the chain of command.

[ADAK]

After having read through most of this thread, there is one thing that baffles me. Why are there so many people on here that are no longer in the Navy debating the merits of this rule? This is a uniform you will never wear. What happened twenty years ago really has no bearing on this. The only way I can see you having a leg to stand on is if you are actually part of the uniform change process. It's a little ridiculous to be telling a sailor who will be affected by this to put up and shut up when you are long past the time when this matters in your day to day life.

I personally am not really worried about it because it's my husband who will wear it, not me. If he has a strong opinion on the rules, he is the one who needs to be complaining and/or defending them, not me.


It was not so much about it being 20 years ago. My take is older veterans feel that today's military members complain to much.

[Yggdrasil]

It was not so much about it being 20 years ago. My take is older veterans feel that today's military members complain to much.

You must be referring to that Almighty Perfect Navy of 20 years ago - where nobody was a dirtbag, everyone was squared away, nobody complained, and everyone worked as a team - a casual oberver looking at Sailors back then would think he was watching a live musical.

What a load of crap. It amazes me how so many of the people who joined the Navy back in the 60's and 70's try to play some "tough guy" role, when the reason why 75% of them joined the Navy back then in the first place was to avoid being drafted into the Army or Marines and being sent to Vietnam.

[YomanDenver]

You must be referring to that Almighty Perfect Navy of 20 years ago - where nobody was a dirtbag, everyone was squared away, nobody complained, and everyone worked as a team - a casual oberver looking at Sailors back then would think he was watching a live musical.

What a load of crap. It amazes me how so many of the people who joined the Navy back in the 60's and 70's try to play some "tough guy" role, when the reason why 75% of them joined the Navy back then in the first place was to avoid being drafted into the Army or Marines and being sent to Vietnam.

This all reminds me of conversations I have with my dad. He was in the Navy back in the late 60's. He's always telling me how things were done back then, then I remind him that that was then...this is now. If you don't complain about something, it won't get fixed. It's common knowledge that when people are happy, they'll work better.

[jeffersj]

This all reminds me of conversations I have with my dad. He was in the Navy back in the late 60's. He's always telling me how things were done back then, then I remind him that that was then...this is now. If you don't complain about something, it won't get fixed. It's common knowledge that when people are happy, they'll work better.

You are correct when you quote the title from a bad 1980's movie "that was then, this is now" in conjunction with current issues. Just bear in mind that sometimes the way it was done then is still the correct way to do it now.

[Yggdrasil]

You are correct when you quote the title from a bad 1980's movie "that was then, this is now" in conjunction with current issues. Just bear in mind that sometimes the way it was done then is still the correct way to do it now.

Only if the way that it was done then hasn't been superceded - nor is the old way based on the "if it was good enough for me, it's good enough for you" mentality.

[AnthonyWWalker]

Nothing new, Is this all the kids do today is bitch! How hard is it for you to change your clothes?
Back in the 80's this policy was in place for the dungaree's You either had to change into civilian clothes, or the uniform of the day.
There are many other things that you can complain about! Changing your clothes should not be one of them!



Not that simple, perhaps you need to get a wee bit more in touch with the times before expressing your ire?

The uniform of the day, ie our new working uniform is a short sleeved uniform. No ship that I have been stationed on, in port with, TAD to, or had friends stationed aboard allows the wearing of short sleeves on board. This leaves our options at either wear civillian clothes to and from work, wear a dress uniform or ignore the NWU in favor of utilities until the wearing of the NWU becomes mandatory.

As for the kids today bitching, if you would care to fully read the article in both Military Times and the original article it was derived from in Navy Times, you would see the bulk of the quoted Sailors were actually very senior enlisted CMCs and even a CWO5. Hardly kids by anyone's estimation.

Please grab some parachute pants and that throwback Michael Jackson jacket and return to the 80s from whence you came, leave the warfighting to those of us who are young and spry enough to do it.

[AnthonyWWalker]

The reason the new digital blue cammie working uniforms are not being allowed off base is the same as it was for dungarees and after them the utilities uniform: They don't want dirty, soiled uniforms out in public.


Not entirely true. The reason so many people are up in arms concerning the changes is because you can actually make stops for gas and day-care and such in the utility uniform.

[jeffersj]

Only if the way that it was done then hasn't been superceded - nor is the old way based on the "if it was good enough for me, it's good enough for you" mentality.

Yes, things do get updated. If there is a new way to do things that was approved, you do it that way.

Just remember, just because something is new, improved, whatever, does not make it a good thing. Many times the old way is the better way, and it is simply a case of the person promoting the new way not knowing any better. Conversely, the old way is not necessarily the best way, and it takes an open mind (something I have found to be lacking in many cases amongst both Junior and Senior Sailors) to look at both and evaluate them on their merits.

[forcedj]

... ie our new working uniform is a short sleeved uniform.

It's a long sleeved uniform.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/31/USN_NWU1.jpg/175px-USN_NWU1.jpg
Navy Working Uniform


... No ship that I have been stationed on, in port with, TAD to, or had friends stationed aboard allows the wearing of short sleeves on board.

All the U.S. Navy ships I was ever on do. I stood many inport OOD watches in summer whites (which is a short sleeved uniform). The JOOD, POW, and MOW standing with me would be in the same uniform.

Dan

[USMC_8156]

Wow that's the most recent picture I've seen of it. Does that look like a replica copy, colors changed, of our uniforms or what? We should sue.

[Yggdrasil]

Wow that's the most recent picture I've seen of it. Does that look like a replica copy, colors changed, of our uniforms or what? We should sue.

Nope. Our name and "US NAVY" tapes are straight across, and our collars are pointed. So the construction of the uniform is different.

[jeffersj]

Wow that's the most recent picture I've seen of it. Does that look like a replica copy, colors changed, of our uniforms or what? We should sue.

Not quite.

While the Marines, the Army, and the Navy all share a digital pattern for the working uniform, there are differences.

In your case, the pockets are angled, which I understand comes from the design of the uniform worn during Vietnam. Additionally, your uniform is designed for a tactical environment - the one for the Navy is not intended for that purpose.

Also, in addition to the nametape and the EGA on the pocket, you also have the EGA on the label inside the blouse to help ensure that any idiot can figure out that uniform is for Marines only.

[Yggdrasil]

Also, in addition to the nametape and the EGA on the pocket, you also have the EGA on the label inside the blouse to help ensure that any idiot can figure out that uniform is for Marines only.

I thought the Navy was getting the ACE on the inside label as well - is this not the case?

[AnthonyWWalker]

It's a long sleeved uniform.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/31/USN_NWU1.jpg/175px-USN_NWU1.jpg
Navy Working Uniform



All the U.S. Navy ships I was ever on do. I stood many inport OOD watches in summer whites (which is a short sleeved uniform). The JOOD, POW, and MOW standing with me would be in the same uniform.

Dan


I'm referring to the only uniform we will posess that will be authorized for wear off-base, the new service uniform that replaces the working whites and working blues. This uniform will be our only transit option other than civilian clothes that will be authorized for stops in town. We can't wear this uniform on board though, due to the requirement of long sleeves. Not sure what ships you've been on, but as I stated earlier, I've never been stationed on a ship that allowed short sleeve shirts, even in port, due to the possibility of having to react to a DC emergency. When I went through "A" school, I purchased several short sleeve shirts for class and haven't had the opportunity to wear them since. All of our watches were sttod in Dress Whites or Dress Blues, depending on the season.

[jeffersj]

I'm referring to the only uniform we will posess that will be authorized for wear off-base, the new service uniform that replaces the working whites and working blues. This uniform will be our only transit option other than civilian clothes that will be authorized for stops in town. We can't wear this uniform on board though, due to the requirement of long sleeves. Not sure what ships you've been on, but as I stated earlier, I've never been stationed on a ship that allowed short sleeve shirts, even in port, due to the possibility of having to react to a DC emergency. When I went through "A" school, I purchased several short sleeve shirts for class and haven't had the opportunity to wear them since. All of our watches were sttod in Dress Whites or Dress Blues, depending on the season.

There is no such thing as Working Whtes. There is Summer White and Winter Blue, which are service uniforms and being replaced by the new service uniform, and Winter Working Blue, which is being discontinued as well.

Yggdrasil - I have no idea what the clothing label will have on the NWU. Only reason I know what the Marines have was I stopped by the MCX awhile back in Norfolk - uniform shop is inside the main store. Happened to see a blouse with the EGA inside the garment just below the collar.

[PAMICH]

A situation was presented to me within the past few days. Myself and a fellow CPO were lodging off base at a local hotel. In the morning there were several sailors in BDU's preparing to head to the continental breakfast room and then head to the base. Navy regs states that camouflage utilities are unauthorized in restaurants. This was a clear violation of the regs. In this setting, we set the policy by not brandishing the sailors at fault (and yes at least two were officers). The setting was not inappropriate, but was against regs. If the aquaflage regs are relaxed we will still see situations as this one that will dictate how the uniforms will be worn. Until then we need to roger up and wear the uniforms correctly.

[PAMICH]

To Anthony Walker and Jeffersj,
Anthony, Brow watch, Quarterdeck watch, OOD, JOOD we have stood watch in our Summer White Service uniforms ( Oh btw the correct Navy terminology) many times. And the sailor slang for Jeffersj is, working whites.

[jeffersj]

To Anthony Walker and Jeffersj,
Anthony, Brow watch, Quarterdeck watch, OOD, JOOD we have stood watch in our Summer White Service uniforms ( Oh btw the correct Navy terminology) many times. And the sailor slang for Jeffersj is, working whites.

Thanks. First time I heard that slang term used for Summer Whites in almost 30 years of service, most of which was as a white hat, and on boths sides of the country, afloat and ashore. Only time I heard the term used was as an alternate term for Indoor Duty White.

BTW, Sailor is capitalized when referring to a member of the US Navy.

[forcedj]

First time I heard that slang term used for Summer Whites in almost 30 years of service, most of which was as a white hat, and on boths sides of the country, afloat and ashore.

Same here with 20+ years. Never heard them called "working whites" officially or as slang...only Summer Whites. Anyone calling them working whites is incorrect.

But then again…I always thought that “Summer Whites” is an oxymoron. We don’t have a white uniform that we wear in the winter. So why not just call them “Whites” (and Service/Dress Whites)? Our Blue uniforms don’t’ have “Winter” preceding them. They’re simply “Working Blues” and “Service/Dress Blues.”

Regarding the BDUs in the hotel dining area...initially I'd say that situation should be permitted. If they're TAD/TDY that hotel is their place of residence. HOWEVER, personnally I think I'd go to eat in civies and then go back up my room to change into my uniform before heading to the base.

Dan

[dulatice]

I often reference to wearing working blues and working whites, vs. wearing dress blues and dress whites. You can be technical if you want, but you are just wasting your breath. Utilities are utilities, and coveralls are "poopy suits". Anyone I have ever known in my whopping 7 years uses the same terms I do. What they are called isn't really that important.

[jeffersj]

I often reference to wearing working blues and working whites, vs. wearing dress blues and dress whites. You can be technical if you want, but you are just wasting your breath. Utilities are utilities, and coveralls are "poopy suits". Anyone I have ever known in my whopping 7 years uses the same terms I do. What they are called isn't really that important.

Not being technical, simply being accurate (major difference) , and no I wasn't wasting breath, bandwidth, etc.

As to why Summer Whites have that name, it goes back to the 1970's when there was a uniform in the seabag called "Summer Blue" which was a white s/s shirt with black trousers and shoes. That was informally known as "Salt and Peppers" but not referred to as such on a regular basis.

[forcedj]

As to why Summer Whites have that name, it goes back to the 1970's when there was a uniform in the seabag called "Summer Blue" which was a white s/s shirt with black trousers and shoes. That was informally known as "Salt and Peppers" but not referred to as such on a regular basis.

That's right! I almost forgot about the old S&Ps (Summer Blue).

Dan

[Yggdrasil]

Utilities are utilities, and coveralls are "poopy suits".

Uhh, no, the white suits worn by the HT's when connecting/disconnecting pier services are "poopy suits".

[dulatice]

Uhh, no, the white suits worn by the HT's when connecting/disconnecting pier services are "poopy suits".

Uhh, yes, and why is it so important to you to argue the point? I have been on 2 different submarines, and I have only worn a poopy suit underway. The blue one that comes in the sea bag. You know, the one that we have to have badges and stuff on. Would you believe that we also wear tennis shoes instead of boots underway too?

[forcedj]

Would you believe that we also wear tennis shoes instead of boots underway too?


That's understandable and probably comes under the uniform regulation heading of "Organizational Clothing." Like flight deck clothing. It's only worn in the environment while underway.

Dan

[ElectricElvis]

No, not saying that.

But seeing a fat pregnant woman walking around in sneakers and ACU's isn't exactly what I see when I think "warfighter."

If the uniform is to be seen in public, it should be worn by somebody who would make a 10 year old kid want to join the military and go kill terrorists.

uh, so pregnant women in uniform are to be perceived as detrimental to the military image? Pardon me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the military have a "family first" policy? In support of which, they have loosened the guidelines for shore assignments for pregnant service women? Furthermore, IMHO, inspiring 10 year olds is what SEALs, Green Beret, and the like are for, along with the Hollywood glamourization (a la "GI Jane").

[ElectricElvis]

Not being technical, simply being accurate (major difference) , and no I wasn't wasting breath, bandwidth, etc.

As to why Summer Whites have that name, it goes back to the 1970's when there was a uniform in the seabag called "Summer Blue" which was a white s/s shirt with black trousers and shoes. That was informally known as "Salt and Peppers" but not referred to as such on a regular basis.

Actually, we still have S & P's. The pretty much the only people who wear them are the CS's, and whoever is helping them with whatever function they're putting on. My husband wore them.

[nofluer]

Ha! You kids. I was active Surface from 69 - 73, then Seabee from 77 - 79. I never heard the terms "working whites," "working blues," "summer whites," or"winter blues." Probably as today, the Uniform of the Day listed acceptable uniforms per commanding officer in the POD.

For E-6 and below we had:
- Working uniform - year 'round - dungarees (chambray shirts, dungaree/denim pants and either Dixie cup or approved ball cap - or command cap or plain blue, hard hats as required, .) Coveralls existed - but only a few people wore them and they couldn't wear them off base, in the exchange, etc.

Summer
- hat = Dixie cup.
- undress whites (working uniform for pencil pushers and people who didn't get dirty - white short sleeved shirt or pull-over (long sleeved) white blouse - no ribbons or neckerchief)
- and dress whites (off base wear or if you're in a formal setting - white short sleeved shirt with ribbons, or pullover blouse with neckerchief and ribbons)
- FULL dress whites (dress with medals instead of ribbons.).
White pants for all white uniforms. For a while they mandated white boxer shorts because you could see right through those white pants!

For winter we had:
- hat = Dixie cup
- undress blues (pullover light-weight wool blouse without piping or neckerchief - no ribbons, wool trousers. Usually allowed - Optional wear of custom pants with zippers or standard pants with 13 buttons.)
- Dress blues (pullover heavy wool blouse with piping and ribbons and neckerchief, pants were heavy wool with 13 buttons)
- Full Dress blues (Dress blues with medals instead of ribbons.)

So we had essentially 5 basic uniforms with differences and some pieces could be used for more than one uniform. They filled up our seabags by requiring us to have three sets of each - but then I never had a seabag inspection after I left boot camp so once they allowed us to wear civies on liberty, I had plenty of room.

In the Bees, we my CO required us to have at least one good set of each of the above, and our greens. The only time I wore anything but dungarees or greens was when traveling on orders and reporting in, and I only wore the dungarees when I was slummin' with the surface squids and it was the UoD. ;-D.

Whether you could wear the working uniform home, in grocery stores on the way home, etc seemed to vary with the CO. At NOB sometimes we had ship COs allowing stuff that the NOB CO didn't - and then we had "issues" - but that was all above me.

I think we had a lot easier than you guys do today. NONE of our stuff had to be ironed except the white short-sleeved shirt.

[nofluer]

Actually, we still have S & P's. The pretty much the only people who wear them are the CS's, and whoever is helping them with whatever function they're putting on. My husband wore them.

Ahhh... come on. Don't you have him play "dress up" sometimes just for fun? :D

[ScottyJF03]

I agree with the way the rules currently are. It's a working uniform designed for dirty work. As Master Chief West stated: "...it was critical that Sailors learn how to wear the uniform before unveiling it to the American public in our schools and communities" The MCPON stressed that if Sailors want the policy changed, it's up to them to prove they're ready. I can't see this happening.

As one shipmate said we should be able to determine if our uniform is presentably, to which if I am going out in town it better be recruiting worthy. How many times how we walked through the gate onto the pier and seen a fellow shipmate wearing his/her coveralls (which by the way is against regs) and though how nasty they were and ashamed you were to be wearing the same uniform. And coveralls have been around for a while. How hard is it to come in a few minutes earlier and change. If they do soften the rules, the stops better be just for emergencies: car breaking down, emergency gas, and maybe to pick up a kid. No malls, no milk and bread, no movie rental.

As for what the Army and Air Force wear, I don't care. I'm in the Navy and if we want to hold ourselves to a higher standard, I happy with that.
As for the idea that we can't wear utilities out in town because the navy thought they looked like prison uniforms. Chiefs and officers can't wear there working khaki's and we had two officers in Aviator Greens which look sharp but they can't wear them out in town because they're working uniforms, not because they look like prison outfits.
If you need to have someone stop you in say thank you for serving, go home change into service dress and go walk around town all you want.

[chop22]

What gets me is that the Navy is quick to say that heritage must be preserved and that "today's" Sailors lack understanding Navy culture...

Isn't changing the traditional Navy uniform one of the worst things that can be done to our heritage/culture?

Hypocrisy at its best...

[chop22]

In reply to - CNO cutting costs to the fleet future - worth posting here too.

Cutting costs key... Once again hypocritical... I suppose they weren't thinking about cutting costs when they decided to changing the Navy's uniform to NWU's.

Someone's getting rich out there. We should have never got rid of the old school dungarees. Heck the new dungarees haven't even been around for ten years yet and now they're rolling out with another new uniform.

I'd like to know what company won the bid on these NWU's and I'd also like to know how many of their employees/executives retired from the Navy... some wheeling and dealing going on...

[HDANE]

In reply to - CNO cutting costs to the fleet future - worth posting here too.

Cutting costs key... Once again hypocritical... I suppose they weren't thinking about cutting costs when they decided to changing the Navy's uniform to NWU's.

Someone's getting rich out there. We should have never got rid of the old school dungarees. Heck the new dungarees haven't even been around for ten years yet and now they're rolling out with another new uniform.

I'd like to know what company won the bid on these NWU's and I'd also like to know how many of their employees/executives retired from the Navy... some wheeling and dealing going on...

I'd agree that they weren't trying to cut costs when changing to NWUs - They were responding to overwhelming fleet input for a BDU-style uniform. The "new dungarees", officially "utilities", are short lived for a reason - they suck, and require too much maintenance for a working uniform.

HDane

[YomanDenver]

I'd agree that they weren't trying to cut costs when changing to NWUs - They were responding to overwhelming fleet input for a BDU-style uniform. The "new dungarees", officially "utilities", are short lived for a reason - they suck, and require too much maintenance for a working uniform.

Not to mention the fact that the Navy is commonly known to have way too many uniforms, and with the rolling out of the BDU's and the other working uniform, they're aiming at slimming the seabag down.

From what I've been reading and hearing from folks who have the new uniform, yes the design has it's flaws (i.e., the "Chicken on a boat"), but it's also very comfortable and requires little to no maintenance. So if you have Sailors that are constantly late due to "ironing" their uniform, they should have no problems making it into work now.

[NMWH1985]

uh, so pregnant women in uniform are to be perceived as detrimental to the military image? Pardon me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the military have a "family first" policy? In support of which, they have loosened the guidelines for shore assignments for pregnant service women? Furthermore, IMHO, inspiring 10 year olds is what SEALs, Green Beret, and the like are for, along with the Hollywood glamourization (a la "GI Jane").

Pregnant women. Fat guys. Broken Privates with soft shoe profiles and crutches. Sailors/Soldiers with shaving chits/profiles.

All these things are well and good. I've got no problem with pregnant women in uniform. Just keep that shit on base. It is absolutely embarassing to see Soldiers walk around in their ACU's in public who are not within regulations.

I understand the Navy wanting to avoid that fiasco. It is not difficult to bring a change of clothes.

And to a ten year old, there is little difference between a Green Beret and some paper pushing POG. All they see is the uniform.

[GUNMATE1]

As i sit here and read through the blogs i find it funny.... We have sailors of new and old arguing about this. its funny to me... I have respect for the old salts. Thanks for your service.... I just wanted to say you cannot compare the regulations of old with the regulations of today. 1 its a different navy than it was 10, 15, 20 years ago. Hell its different when i came in in 96. One thing has remained constant througout the years. A bitching sailor is a happy one. The Navy decided to take a new approach to uniforms. Make it simple just have what 4 uniforms now, (SU,NWU, Dress Blues and whites). Pretty much all others will be gone soon. So we ave to wait on the uniforms. Ok that sucks its a stupid rollout. We all know it we all hate it. What they should have done was made it available to the fleet all at the same time. That would have been smarter. What needs to happen is who ever is in charge of procurement should be fired. The person has no clue how to properly clothe a uniformed service.
For tradition, get over it the dungaress arent really a tradition. If you look throughout history what is the one uniform that stands out over all the others. Service Dress Blues. It's a sharp uniform, its on posters its on artwork. Its all over the place. Dont say "Oh no i want my utilities" Those of you who have never worn a BDU style uniform are lost because all you wore was Coveralls or utilities or one of the other many uniforms we have. The uniform is functional, hell they even boosted our clothing allowance doubling it is some cases so we can get it. So why are you bitching? For those of you who dont know how to sew go to the cleaners they will do it for you, if you have a wife or significant other who can sew get them to do it for free. I mean really alot of this is being blown out of proportion because sailors dont want to spend the time picking out a new uniform and wearing it properly. Sailors of New, GROW UP, Your mommy and daddy don't run your life. Its time you took control of your lives and realized you are in a branch of the armed forces and you swore an oath to follow the orders of those appointed over you. I know thats what i did when i came in. If you have less than 4 years in the navy your opinion doesnt really mean much cause all you know is your first command. Listen to the old salts who have gone through uniform changes, regulation changes. Hell talk to them about the time where the military didnt get paid for a month. god forbid if that happened today, half of you wouldn't know what to do. Grow up!!!!!!

[YomanDenver]

As i sit here and read through the blogs i find it funny.... We have sailors of new and old arguing about this. its funny to me... I have respect for the old salts. Thanks for your service.... I just wanted to say you cannot compare the regulations of old with the regulations of today. 1 its a different navy than it was 10, 15, 20 years ago. Hell its different when i came in in 96. One thing has remained constant througout the years. A bitching sailor is a happy one. The Navy decided to take a new approach to uniforms. Make it simple just have what 4 uniforms now, (SU,NWU, Dress Blues and whites). Pretty much all others will be gone soon. So we ave to wait on the uniforms. Ok that sucks its a stupid rollout. We all know it we all hate it. What they should have done was made it available to the fleet all at the same time. That would have been smarter. What needs to happen is who ever is in charge of procurement should be fired. The person has no clue how to properly clothe a uniformed service.
For tradition, get over it the dungaress arent really a tradition. If you look throughout history what is the one uniform that stands out over all the others. Service Dress Blues. It's a sharp uniform, its on posters its on artwork. Its all over the place. Dont say "Oh no i want my utilities" Those of you who have never worn a BDU style uniform are lost because all you wore was Coveralls or utilities or one of the other many uniforms we have. The uniform is functional, hell they even boosted our clothing allowance doubling it is some cases so we can get it. So why are you bitching? For those of you who dont know how to sew go to the cleaners they will do it for you, if you have a wife or significant other who can sew get them to do it for free. I mean really alot of this is being blown out of proportion because sailors dont want to spend the time picking out a new uniform and wearing it properly. Sailors of New, GROW UP, Your mommy and daddy don't run your life. Its time you took control of your lives and realized you are in a branch of the armed forces and you swore an oath to follow the orders of those appointed over you. I know thats what i did when i came in. If you have less than 4 years in the navy your opinion doesnt really mean much cause all you know is your first command. Listen to the old salts who have gone through uniform changes, regulation changes. Hell talk to them about the time where the military didnt get paid for a month. god forbid if that happened today, half of you wouldn't know what to do. Grow up!!!!!!

You just brought a tear to my eye...:D I swear, it's like people think they're in college or on an extended version of The Real World....drives me crazy.

[forcedj]

A bitching sailor is a happy one.



Hey, my first Division Chief back in the early 80s use to say that. In addition when stating that, he’d say (mind you this was back when we got hard copy printed paychecks and before direct deposit) “If all a sailor had to do was come in every two weeks to get his paycheck, he’d bitch that it wasn’t mailed to him.”




For tradition, get over it the dungaress arent really a tradition.



Will you be saying that in 20 or 25 years and they're changing all the unforms that you once wore?





For those of you who dont know how to sew ... ... if you have a wife or significant other who can sew get them to do it for free.



For the love of God man, you're going to get yourself killed!




Sailors of New, GROW UP, Your mommy and daddy don't run your life. Its time you took control of your lives and realized you are in a branch of the armed forces and you swore an oath to follow the orders of those appointed over you.



Amen.


Dan

[GUNMATE1]

I dont think the comment about the wives or significant other was out of line. At least i hope that it wasnt. And for those of you who were offended by it i apologize. I personally have a wife who can't sew. So i take it to the dry cleaners. Does that matter to me? Not in the least. I married her for her. But hey its time that sailors grew up. Alot of the ones coming in now believe that they are the greatest thing for the navy. Well have i got a surprise for you. The navy has survived for over 200 years with out you. It will survive when y ou move on to bigger and better things. If while your in you can actually make a contribution its great. if you here just to get a paycheck. Then i stick to my guns when i say GET OUT. We DONT WANT YOU.

[LandLocked]

I would just like to know the rationale used when the NWU rules were dreamt up. If you have read the NAVADMINS about the new PT uniforms, you would have seen that in NAVADMIN 191/08, it states that:

"3. MANNER OF WEAR - THE PTU IS DESIGNED PRIMARILY FOR GROUP/UNIT
PHYSICAL TRAINING ACTIVITIES AND THE SEMI-ANNUAL PHYSICAL FITNESS
ASSESSMENT (PFA); HOWEVER, IT CAN BE WORN BOTH ON AND OFF BASE FOR
FITNESS AND/OR LEISURE UNLESS DETERMINED OTHERWISE BY REGIONAL
COORDINATORS OR COMMANDING OFFICERS."

Now comes the confusion....I can get all sweaty and smelly from PTing out in town and then run to Walmart or Target or (insert your favorite place to shop) and take care of business while wearing this "uniform" which says NAVY all over it, but I cannot even stop for gas in the NWU??? I totally understand not wanting Joe Dirtbag to be hanging out in the local mall in a NWU that looks like crap, but technically, by big Navy policy, can hang out in sweaty, nasty PT gear. I am just not sure big Navy got this one right.

Is it not the responsibility of the chain of command to make sure Sailors are presentable when they depart the ship or leave work? Is it not the responsibility of the OOD to ensure Sailors are dressed appropriately when departing? I know I have not allowed many Sailors to leave my QuarterDeck because thier uniform looked like it just came out from under a rock, or their civilian attire was not appropriate according to ship/base/CO policies. What is going on here?? Why has big Navy decided to take away these somewhat minor decisions from the deckplate leadership?

The above quote states that regional coordinators or COs have the ability to restrict wear of the PT uniform in public. This makes sense as they may restrict any policy, but never loosen the reigns, as long as the intent is met. Why is this stipulation not in the NWU framework?

I am just confused at this whole policy, but as with every other policy, I will salute and carry on smartly.

[forcedj]

Now comes the confusion....I can get all sweaty and smelly from PTing out in town and then run to Walmart or Target or (insert your favorite place to shop) and take care of business while wearing this "uniform" which says NAVY all over it, but I cannot even stop for gas in the NWU??? I totally understand not wanting Joe Dirtbag to be hanging out in the local mall in a NWU that looks like crap, but technically, by big Navy policy, can hang out in sweaty, nasty PT gear. I am just not sure big Navy got this one right.



I have to agree with ya LL. I hadn’t realized it, but it is completely inconsistent and contradictory based on the regs you quoted. I’d say that it what those of you on active duty need to start voicing to your CoC and in Captains Calls. But it’s probably a good bet that if one of the policies are to change, it’ll probably be to NOT allow the PTU off base. For now anyway. I think eventually the NWU is going to be allowed off base.

Dan

[PAMICH]

Wow our Sailors actually wear the PTU off base! I'm still wrestling with the Sailors to wear only PTU authorized gear on base as a team and I'm working on my senior enlisted to wear it during solo PT on base.

[YomanDenver]

Wow our Sailors actually wear the PTU off base! I'm still wrestling with the Sailors to wear only PTU authorized gear on base as a team and I'm working on my senior enlisted to wear it during solo PT on base.

Not to get off topic and start talking about the PTU, but they need to come out with pants for it. It can get downright cold here in Nebraska and I'm stuck with thin shorts to PT in!?

[MIKEYCHALUPA]

Not to get off topic and start talking about the PTU, but they need to come out with pants for it. It can get downright cold here in Nebraska and I'm stuck with thin shorts to PT in!?

http://www.npc.navy.mil/NR/rdonlyres/33CD20F6-CE98-4B1E-B3F4-B7E4CCD437F5/0/NAV08312.txt

NAVADMIN 312/08 authorizes the Navy Sweatsuit issued to recruits and available at the NEX and online to be worn with the PTU until the new warm-up suit becomes available either late this year or next year. It also authorizes command ballcaps to be worn as an optional component and clarifies a few other details such as grooming standards while in the PTU at a command PT session.

Here's the relevant excerpt:



3. EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, THE COMMAND BALL CAP AND NAVY SWEAT SHIRT
AND PANT ARE AUTHORIZED AS OPTIONAL COMPONENTS WORN WITH THE PHYSICAL
TRAINING UNIFORM (PTU) DURING COMMAND DIRECTED GROUP/UNIT PT. THE
AUTHORIZED SWEAT SHIRT AND PANT ARE ISSUED TO RECRUITS DURING RECRUIT
BASIC TRAINING AND ARE SOLD IN THE NAVY EXCHANGE UNIFORM CENTERS. THE
MANNER OF WEAR IS AS FOLLOWS:
A. COMMAND BALL CAPS WILL BE NAVY BLUE AND WORN AS PRESCRIBED IN
NAVY UNIFORM REGULATIONS CHAPTER 3, SECTION 5, ARTICLE 3501.8.
B. THE NAVY SWEAT SHIRT IS NAVY BLUE, 50/50 COTTON/POLYESTER BLEND
(HOODED OR CREW NECK), WITH REFLECTIVE NAVY LETTERING OUTLINED IN GOLD
ON THE BACK AND REFLECTIVE NAVY LETTERING AND NAVY SEAL OUTLINE IN GOLD
ON THE FRONT. THE SWEAT SHIRT IS WORN OUTSIDE OF THE SWEAT PANT.
C. THE SWEAT PANT IS NAVY BLUE, 50/50 COTTON/POLYESTER BLEND, WITH
REFLECTIVE LETTERING VERTICALLY OUTLINED IN GOLD OUTBOARD ON EACH PANT
LEG. THE PANTS ARE WORN SQUARELY ON THE WAIST WITH BOTH PANT LEGS FULLY
EXTENDED.
4. DURING COMMAND DIRECTED GROUP/UNIT PT, GROOMING STANDARDS, WITH THE
EXCEPTION OF FEMALE HAIR, SHALL BE IN ACCORDANCE WITH NAVY UNIFORM
REGULATIONS CHAPTERS ONE AND TWO. PTU GROOMING STANDARDS
EXCEPTION: FOR GROUP/UNIT PT, COMMANDING OFFICERS ARE AUTHORIZED TO
STANDARDIZE UNIT POLICY FOR THE RELAXATION OF FEMALE HAIR GROOMING
STANDARDS WITH REGARD TO HAVING HAIR SECURED TO HEAD. FOR PERFORMING
INDIVIDUAL PT, FEMALE SAILORS ARE AUTHORIZED TO DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT
TO SECURE HAIR TO HEAD. HAIR RESTRAINING DEVICES, IF WORN, WILL BE
BLACK OR NAVY BLUE IN COLOR.

[YomanDenver]

Oh I know you can wear the "smurfs" with the PTU. I just wonder why they can't come out with all components to a uniform at one time, instead of being sporadic.

[Yggdrasil]

Well... I wouldn't say that dungarees aren't traditional... that is, if you're talking about the old denim & chambray dungarees. Today's utilities? Blah, they've been for little more than ten years. Most people born when the current utilities came out probably haven't even grown their first pube yet - it's pure stupidity to say that utilities are "tradition". To too many Sailors, tradition is "anything, as long as no other service is wearing it."

The old denim & chambray dungarees being tradition is beside the point. Only dress uniforms need to be traditional. Working uniforms need to be functional and practical. Today's utilities has to be starched and pressed with military creases (optional my a$$). The result? Sailors end up having to do their job to the best of their ability without messing up their uniform. With the NWU, Sailors can finally just do their #^@&ing job.

[ScottyJF03]

Yggdrasil, I am not sure where you stand, do you agree then that sailors need to focus on doing their job and accept that the uniform is designed to get dirty, thus not allowed to go off site presenting a negative impression on the Navy and the military in general, or do you want the NWU as acceptable off duty wear regardless of the reason the uniform was designed for?

[Yggdrasil]

I believe that if we're going to be keeping the coveralls, then those should be used for the "dirty" work. I was originally talking about work that's not necessarily "dirty," but makes no sense to have a pressed uniform with military creases. For example, a Seaman with utilities will go into a working party with a "squared away" uniform, and then come out with one looking like crap. Not dirty, but wrinkled and crappy. You won't have that issue with the NWU, see what I mean?

[HDANE]

100% agree with Yggdrasil. The current utility uniform required ironing, starching, and creases to be considered "presentable" - the uniform was intended for non-soiling work, but it was never treated that way.

With the NWUs, you'll be able to "work" in them and they will still be presentable. I would love that the Navy adopt the NWU as the other services do with their working uniform - the NWU is for all daily routines, to include watchstanding. Standing a security watch with a condition 1 M9 in a dress uniform never made much sense to me.

[ScottyJF03]

Not sure how I feel about the new working uniform. Currently I’m not a big fan of them, possibly because of change possibly because I don’t like how they look, did the same with the Marines cammies although I admit I like their looks now. Now that is said, I still think the NWU is a working uniform and should be kept as such, regardless if they are supposedly more comfortable, do not have to be ironed, etc etc wine etc, they are working uniforms. The Navy came out with our version of Navy Charlies for office work, not sure if you can stop for gas, but they are not designed to get grease, paint, or jet fuel. Perhaps we should just wear the NWU for everything from the boat to PSD. Does anybody know if SeeBees, Seals, EOD, etc can wear their cammies around town?

Granted those nasty looking uniform wearing sailors strolling around town may only be a small minority but my experience with wearing cammies and others in uniform in general has shown that it will happen and they deter to the image of the Navy and the military. One good job shipwreck can erase 1000 great job shipmate. Besides, who cares what the Army and Air Force wear; so much the better if we decide to hold ourselves to a higher standard.

In reference to the dress uniform while caring a M9. I’m assuming you’re referring to watch on the QD. The dress uniform is for the ceremonial positioning of the QD, the M9 is because you are the first line of defense for your ship. Rovers and flight deck watch standards wore utilities from my experience.

[Yggdrasil]

Not sure how I feel about the new working uniform. Currently I’m not a big fan of them, possibly because of change possibly because I don’t like how they look...

You mean you actually like the look of our current utilities over the NWU?

[ScottyJF03]

Doesn't matter if I like the looks of the utilities over the NWU or not; even if I don't like the look of the NWU, they are already here, so I will salute and carry on. I'm just saying I agree with the rules that we should wear a working uniform for work.

[ScottyJF03]

I may relax lightly for family members picking up and dropping of children but this should take no more then a few minutes but other than emergencies (Not the I ran out of milk emergencies) I agree with the current rules.

[HDANE]

In reference to the dress uniform while caring a M9. I’m assuming you’re referring to watch on the QD. The dress uniform is for the ceremonial positioning of the QD, the M9 is because you are the first line of defense for your ship. Rovers and flight deck watch standards wore utilities from my experience.

I understand the ceremonial attachment of SBUs and equivalents for the QD - however, it seems that by being the first line of defense for the ship (hence the loaded weapon) and also a place of ceremony (SBUs) we are trying to "serve two masters". The SBU isn't a uniform built with flexibility and movement in mind, which is what's required of a security watchstation.

[PAMICH]

Hey Hdane and scotty, couple of quick questions. What is a SBU? Are we talking quarter deck of a Navy vessel? I can't say I've seen too many Sailors or Marines standing ATFP watch with Dress uniforms on.

[HDANE]

Pamich,
SBU is the Service Dress Blue, our traditional "cracker-jack" style uniform. It looks good, identifies us readily as Sailors by the general populace, and has a long history.

The Quarterdeck, in broad terms, is where the brow (the ramp that connects the pier) is placed, and is normally manned by the Officer of the Deck and his/her assistants. It is the entry checkpoints to a vessel, and also a place of ceremony as per tradition.

Prior to 9/11, the Quarterdeck's place was less security and more tradition, even though security was still a factor. The OOD would oftentimes be armed, yet without ammunition. In the middle of the night (0000-0400), it was not uncommon for the OOD to be alone.

Since 9/11, it is far more of a security checkpoint than some would like to admit. The customs and ceremonies are still observed, but security watchstanding is the order of the day. At one point there were three condition one (fully locked and loaded) weapons on the Quarterdeck, to include a watchstander that did nothing more than stand there with a shotgun as security. It's settled down a bit, but watchstanders are still being issued condition 1 M9s whilst wearing their service dress uniform - a uniform that is built for show, not a firefight. It seems that we want to fully maintain the tradition, pomp and circumstance of the QD while still treating it like a serious security checkpoint.

[forcedj]

Just an off topic note: During my last tour (sea duty 1998 thru 2001) all of my import QD watches were with sidearm and WITH ammo…a round in the chamber. The JOOD (Junior Office of the Deck) was also armed. And, we’d have a roving shooter with either a shotgun or a riffle (loaded).

Dan

[mricky]

Thanks Dan I hope Al-Qaeda is not on here. Do you know anything about nuclear propulsion or the placement of nuclear weapons that we can disclose to the enemy. OPSEC?

[pjesse]

...we’d have a roving shooter with either a shotgun or a riffle (loaded).

Dan

I hate to sound like an idiot, but... what is a 'riffle'?

[forcedj]

I hate to sound like an idiot, but... what is a 'riffle'?


Well, it would have been a “rifle.” But, this is a perfect example of modern technology making an ass out of me. See, I really can’t spell for s4it. So, I type most of my stuff on a Word document so that the spell check will catch my misspellings and I can fix them before I post or send email. The problem is that when you misspell a word that is actually another word…it doesn’t always tell you that you’re using the wrong word. But, to answer your question:

Riffle n. 1. a. A rocky shoal or sandbar lying just below the surface of a waterway.
b. A stretch of choppy water caused by such a shoal or sandbar; a rapid.
2. a. In mining, the sectional stone or wood bottom lining of a sluice, arranged for trapping mineral particles, as of gold.
b. A groove or block in such a lining.

I’ll go with 2.a.

Dan

[Yggdrasil]

Thanks Dan I hope Al-Qaeda is not on here. Do you know anything about nuclear propulsion or the placement of nuclear weapons that we can disclose to the enemy. OPSEC?

Russia knows quite a bit about nuclear propulsion, and they'll give anyone the info if the price is right...

[PAMICH]

It was Army and Air Force recruit Tuesday last night. As I sat down with my gal and a favorite beverage to watch some TV, the commercials that stuck out in my head were the Army and Air Force recruiting adds. Every Soldier and Airman were in their BDUs. They were doing everything under the sun in them. Everything from shopping, picking up kids, getting haircuts, doing family things, along with training and working right on TV. Can you believe it? Sailors are going to get mad with adds like this being shown with our brothers and sisters at arms in their BDUs. I understand our new uniform is not a BDU it's a NWU. We are all just grungy Sailors who really do not care about our image.

[YomanDenver]

It was Army and Air Force recruit Tuesday last night. As I sat down with my gal and a favorite beverage to watch some TV, the commercials that stuck out in my head were the Army and Air Force recruiting adds. Every Soldier and Airman were in their BDUs. They were doing everything under the sun in them. Everything from shopping, picking up kids, getting haircuts, doing family things, along with training and working right on TV. Can you believe it? Sailors are going to get mad with adds like this being shown with our brothers and sisters at arms in their BDUs. I understand our new uniform is not a BDU it's a NWU. We are all just grungy Sailors who really do not care about our image.

That's what it feels like they're telling us when we can't wear our uniform anywhere. I swear, the Air Force gives there people so much and, if you ask me, they have more dirtbags. While us in the Navy work our @$$es off and have nothing, nor get nothing, to show for it.

[CUSEFAN21]

Why can't the Navy just let it be and let sailors wear them all over what does it hurt not a thing plus it shows the community and future enlistees what it looks like

[GUNMATE1]

Lets just get our people wearing it correctly for now. If we can prove to the CO. XO, CMC's throughout the norfolk area that we can wear the uniform correctly im sure the MCPON will convince the CNO to change the policy regarding the wear in town. We have to look squared away first. But its up to the LPO's and LCPO's to ensure this happens. If some of you purchase the uniform get it sewn up correctly and then hang it in your workspace so that they know you have it and your squared away they will probably let you wear it to show how to properly wear it. Square yourself away then train the junior personnel to wear it. If we all look good as 1st's and Chiefs the fleet will look good.

[EW1]

I live near Buckley AFB in Aurora, CO. I always see Air Force and Army personnel shopping at malls, Starbucks ansd other retail outlets. Why does the NAVY continue to be Chicken S**t over this.

I guess it's one of the reasons I got out. Too many Officers with not enought work to do.

NAVY, Never Again Volunteer Yourself.

[forcedj]

... Why does the NAVY continue to be Chicken S**t over this.

I guess it's one of the reasons I got out.


You got out of the Navy because you can’t wear a certain uniform off base? Wow, what a complete 180 in attitudes. Just a couple of decades ago people got out because they were required to wear a certain uniform off base.

Dan

[EW1]

It wasn't just the uniform. It was inept technicians being promoted, poor leadership and the lure of better pay and lifestyle in the civilian world.

Hey, no more quarterdeck mid watches, underway port and starboard watches, and the total lack of regard for personnel by the NAVY. They had 8 years to kill me and they failed, I wasn't going to give them anymore chances.

[mricky]

It wasn't just the uniform. It was inept technicians being promoted, poor leadership and the lure of better pay and lifestyle in the civilian world.

Hey, no more quarterdeck mid watches, underway port and starboard watches, and the total lack of regard for personnel by the NAVY. They had 8 years to kill me and they failed, I wasn't going to give them anymore chances.

So now your living the good life hanging out on military forums complaining about a uniform you will never wear? Nice!!

[forcedj]

It wasn't just the uniform. It was inept technicians being promoted, poor leadership and the lure of better pay and lifestyle in the civilian world.



Well, you did say you got out because of the uniform.


I live near Buckley AFB in Aurora, CO. I always see Air Force and Army personnel shopping at malls, Starbucks ansd other retail outlets. Why does the NAVY continue to be Chicken S**t over this.

I guess it's one of the reasons I got out.

I wondered if anyone else would pick up on the irony that mricky pointed out.

Dan

[YomanDenver]

I wondered if anyone else would pick up on the irony that mricky pointed out.

What do you mean!? :D "EW1" obviously has issues. I don't like the way they're dancing around this uniform, but I don't think it will be long before the uniform has the same wear restrictions as the utilities, which I'm ok with. I don't want to jump to any conclusions...simply because I don't have one of these....

http://www.thinkgeek.com/images/products/additional/large/office_space_kit_mat.jpg

EW1, good luck in your civilian life. Hopefully you've got a job that doesn't have too many rules and a uniform you have to wear.

[SeaChicken]

Originally posted by Yeoman Denver
the Air Force gives there people so much and, if you ask me, they have more dirtbags.
Did it occur to you that the two might be related? Not so much that the Chair Force gives their people so much, but that they have such lax standards and bearing. They don't just have dirtbags, they breed dirtbags.

[YomanDenver]

Did it occur to you that the two might be related? Not so much that the Chair Force gives their people so much, but that they have such lax standards and bearing. They don't just have dirtbags, they breed dirtbags.

Very true. I work with a few Air Force personnel. There are a couple out of that bunch that are the definition of a military servicemember. The rest...well they're Chair Force material.

[CDE]

And now ballcaps are not allowed? I am ready to declare Task Force Uniform a complete and utter failure! I would like to see Navy Times do an article chronicling the farce that is TFU.

[forcedj]

And now ballcaps are not allowed? I am ready to declare Task Force Uniform a complete and utter failure! I would like to see Navy Times do an article chronicling the farce that is TFU.


I’ve been wondering about command ballcaps with the blue digital cammies. I can see the ballcap with the uniform. Maybe eventually they’ll come up with a blue digital hat with a command patch on it for use with the cammie uniform. But…
The TFU does seem out of control in the past decade or so. From the time I joined the Navy at the end of 1981 to the time I made Chief in 1999 the only uniform changes were: to add flaps to the dungaree’s chambray shirt pockets; and the elimination of the general wearing of the salt and pepper uniform. But the chambray shirt change was such that you could wear to flapless shirts until unserviceable. I made Chief just in time to not be required to have utilities. But in the past decade, starting with the switch from dungs to utilities, there have been more (major) uniform changes than you can keep track of. Yeah, the TFU is (Totally Fncked Up and) out of control.

Dan

[YomanDenver]

Yeah, the TFU is (Totally Fncked Up and) out of control.

Couldn't agree more, and I've only been in since 2002.

[SeaChicken]

I can't see wearing ball caps with the NWU. It seems an odd mix of uniform components to me. I mean why does everyone like command ball caps, just because it is a baseball cap? No, it's pride in your unit and letting everyone know what ship/sub/command you are from. I would like to see some sort of unit identifier being able to be worn in the NWU, I'm just not sure what the best way to do that is. The ball cap kind of clashes with the digital pattern, and patches on your shoulder like the Army is too much of a copycat thing for me, so I'm not sure what the best answer is.

I don't know that I agree is TFU is that out of control. There have been a lot of big changes in the last 3-5 years, but wasn't that the point? I don't agree with every decision they've made, but I do like that they are not afraid to make them. It's not easy to walk the line between modernization and tradition particularly when you have such distinctive uniforms as the service dress uniforms and they are essentially untouchable.

[YomanDenver]

I can't see wearing ball caps with the NWU. It seems an odd mix of uniform components to me.

At the last Air Force base I was at, I used to see a lot of Air Force personnel wearing a black ballcap with their BDU's. It just looks tacky, if you ask me.

Maybe they should come out with a digi-ball cap, but it will still look tacky. I personally love the ball caps. They are something to collect for those of us who go from command to command. They will still be allowed with coveralls, but how often are the majority of us going to wear coveralls anymore? It's sad to see them go.

[SeaChicken]

At the last Air Force base I was at, I used to see a lot of Air Force personnel wearing a black ballcap with their BDU's. It just looks tacky, if you ask me.It looks unprofessional, slovenly and lazy if you ask me. Not that you asked me, but I'm going to tell you anyway.

[jeffersj]

Haven't seen the Air Force wearing ball caps with their new working uniforms - have seen it when they wore the old woodland pattern.

Politest thing I can say is they looked slovenly, but then that was also based on the way they carried themselves while walking.

[Yggdrasil]

Haven't seen the Air Force wearing ball caps with their new working uniforms - have seen it when they wore the old woodland pattern.

I'm stationed in San Antonio, and I saw it for the first time this morning. He was wearing a red ball cap. Before I got close enough to notice that he was in the Air Force, I thought it was some old guy getting ready to go hunting.

[YomanDenver]

I'm stationed in San Antonio, and I saw it for the first time this morning. He was wearing a red ball cap. Before I got close enough to notice that he was in the Air Force, I thought it was some old guy getting ready to go hunting.

Yeah, it's just one of those things that makes you do a double-take. The Air Force does so many things that make me laugh...their commercials, for one, are hysterical. Their uniforms are a close second.

[HDANE]

At the last Air Force base I was at, I used to see a lot of Air Force personnel wearing a black ballcap with their BDU's. It just looks tacky, if you ask me.

Maybe they should come out with a digi-ball cap, but it will still look tacky. I personally love the ball caps. They are something to collect for those of us who go from command to command. They will still be allowed with coveralls, but how often are the majority of us going to wear coveralls anymore? It's sad to see them go.

The coveralls aren't going anywhere - it's just going to be an underway uniform. TIt's tough to conceive of a better uniform underway BUT coveralls, and even the NWUs can't replace them in simplicity and functionality.

[YomanDenver]

The coveralls aren't going anywhere - it's just going to be an underway uniform. TIt's tough to conceive of a better uniform underway BUT coveralls, and even the NWUs can't replace them in simplicity and functionality.

I know the coveralls aren't going away, but when you're underway...you normally don't wear a cover unless you're on watch. I know I worded it wrong.

[GUNMATE1]

The coveralls aren't going anywhere - it's just going to be an underway uniform. TIt's tough to conceive of a better uniform underway BUT coveralls, and even the NWUs can't replace them in simplicity and functionality. YomanDenver: I know the coveralls aren't going away, but when you're underway...you normally don't wear a cover unless you're on watch. I know I worded it wrong.

THE NWU IS INTENDED FOR YEAR-ROUND WEAR AND SHALL BE THE STANDARD
WORKING UNIFORM ASHORE. THE NWU IS DESIGNED TO ACCOMMODATE MALE AND
FEMALE SAILORS AND TO FULFILL MULTI-FUNCTIONAL/GEOGRAPHICAL UNIFORM
REQUIREMENTS AT SEA AND ASHORE. THE NWU WILL REPLACE WORKING UTILITIES,
TROPICAL WORKING UNIFORMS, WASH KHAKIS, WINTER WORKING BLUE, AVIATION
WORKING GREEN AND NON-TACTICAL/ENVIRONMENTAL USAGE OF CAMOUFLAGE
UTILITY UNIFORMS (CUU). IT IS ALSO DESIGNED TO MINIMIZE THE
REQUIREMENT FOR VARIOUS COLD WEATHER GEAR, AND TO ACCOMMODATE THE
PERSONNEL ARMOR SYSTEM FOR GROUND TROOPS (PASGT).
APPROPRIATE AUTHORITY MAY PRESCRIBE PASGT ITEMS FOR WEAR WITH THE NWU.
THE TERM "APPROPRIATE AUTHORITY" REFERS TO COMMANDERS, COMMANDING
OFFICERS, AND OFFICERS IN CHARGE. THE MANDATORY WEAR DATE IS 31
DECEMBER 2010.
3. OCCASION FOR WEAR. THE NWU IS DESIGNED TO BE WORN IN ENVIRONMENTS
(AT SEA AND ASHORE) THAT DO NOT REQUIRE SPECIAL CLOTHING (E.G. FLIGHT,
FLIGHT DECK, ENGINE ROOM, ETC.).


From what i read and this is just my interpretation, the NWU will replace the coveralls as a normal underway uniform. From what i read in the NAVADMIN for wear it looks like it will be the working uniform "At Sea" unless you are an engineer or something that requires dirty work. But that is the way that i read the instruction. So it looks like OS's PS's rates like that, that do not work in areas exposed to heavy amounts of grease, paint or dirty work, will be wearing the NWU underway and the rest will be wearing coveralls while they are doing the "Dirty work" and they will probably go back to the way it was, Coveralls were organizational and the ship issued you coveralls to work in but no ranks or name tags were on them. Just my thoughts though.

[KentheShark]

I am on a big deck gator and the issue of coveralls vs. NWU was discussed at 1st Class call with CMC and XO. Our chain of command is leaning toward coveralls being the normal uniform of the day underway. Additionally, at CO''s discretion, the crew may be able to wear the blue cotton T-shirt with their coveralls underway only. Inport, normal rules for wear of coveralls will apply. I am pleased to see that our chain of command is rying to make things a little less complicated and put some common sense into things.

[CDE]

After a few washes in the ships laundry white t-shirts end up blue anyways.

[YomanDenver]

After a few washes in the ships laundry white t-shirts end up blue anyways.

Or gone...

[Smeghead]

I'm stationed in San Antonio, and I saw it for the first time this morning. He was wearing a red ball cap. Before I got close enough to notice that he was in the Air Force, I thought it was some old guy getting ready to go hunting.

REDHORSE are the only people authorized to wear their red ballcaps all the time. CATM wear them while at the range for safety reasons, makes them easily identifiable.

As for us looking unprofessional, slovenly and lazy? People in glass houses ...

[USsailor83]

This uniforms regs are inconvenient. I don't mean to seem like i am whining but not being able to where it to drop off or pick up your children? Really? So I already have to find a daycare that opens up early enough to take my child, which we all know is extremely early but know i have to manage to find the time to drop her off (which is usually when it first opens so i can make it to work on time) and then change once i get to work? And still be expected to be on station in time? Is that really reasonable. I know my family didn't come in my sea bag but just a little support would be great!

[jeffersj]

USSailor83 -

I don't think you're whining. As I recall, the goal is to loosen the rules until they match what is allowed with the utilities, etc. The only issue is making sure that the Sailor knows how to wear the uniform properly first so as not to discredit the Navy. Not sure what prompted them tightening the rules to begin with.

[Snuggle Bunny]

My primary concern at this point is when we'll get a full set of finalized wear rules. One thing I haven't heard an answer for yet is how are we supposed to set battle dress for fire-fighting in a ship-board environment in the new NWU? I'm NOT leaving my shirt untucked for fire-fighting and other damage control evolutions; it's just not as protective. This is something that NEEDS to be addressed; Damage control is a PRIMARY FUNCTION that I'm not sure was taken into account when this whole scheme was concocted.

Here is the NWU NAVADMIN in nearly it's entirety (I had to cut out some of the admin at the end to avoid a character limit). It was released on the 2nd of December.
R 021922Z DEC 08
FM CNO WASHINGTON DC//N1//
TO NAVADMIN
INFO CNO WASHINGTON DC//N1//
BT
UNCLAS //N01020//
NAVADMIN 343/08
MSGID/GENADMIN/CNO WASHINGTON DC/N1/DEC//
SUBJ/UNIFORM UPDATE//
REF/A/DOC/NAVPERS 15665I/01JAN2003//
REF B/MSG/CNO WASHINGTON DC/N1/092022ZJUL08//
REF C/MSG/CNO WASHINGTON DC/N1/050024ZNOV08//
NARR/REF A IS U.S. NAVY UNIFORM REGULATIONS, NAVPERS 15665I.
REF B IS NAVADMIN 190/08. REF C IS NAVADMIN 312/08.//
RMKS/1. THIS NAVADMIN ANNOUNCES THE 24 MONTH FLEET ROLLOUT OF THE NEW
NAVY WORKING UNIFORM (NWU) BEGINNING DECEMBER 2008. THE NWU IS A BATTLE DRESS UTILITY STYLE UNIFORM CONSTRUCTED OF 50/50 PERCENT NYLON/COTTON TWILL FABRIC. IT IS A FOUR COLOR (DECK GRAY, HAZE GRAY, BLACK AND NAVY BLUE) DIGITAL PATTERN DESIGN. EMBEDDED THROUGHOUT THE FABRIC ARE MINIATURIZED FEATURES OF THE SEAL OF THE NAVY FLAG WITH THE LETTERS "USN" DIRECTLY BENEATH IT. THE SEAL INCLUDES AN ANCHOR, A THREE-MASTED SQUARE RIGGED SHIP, AND AN EAGLE. THE EMBLEM WILL BE ABBREVIATED "ACE", WHICH STANDS FOR ANCHOR, USS CONSTITUTION, AND EAGLE.
2. THE NWU IS INTENDED FOR YEAR-ROUND WEAR AND SHALL BE THE STANDARD WORKING UNIFORM ASHORE. THE NWU IS DESIGNED TO ACCOMMODATE MALE AND FEMALE SAILORS AND TO FULFILL MULTI-FUNCTIONAL/GEOGRAPHICAL UNIFORM REQUIREMENTS AT SEA AND ASHORE. THE NWU WILL REPLACE WORKING UTILITIES, TROPICAL WORKING UNIFORMS, WASH KHAKIS, WINTER WORKING BLUE, AVIATION WORKING GREEN AND NON-TACTICAL/ENVIRONMENTAL USAGE OF CAMOUFLAGE UTILITY UNIFORMS (CUU). IT IS ALSO DESIGNED TO MINIMIZE THE REQUIREMENT FOR VARIOUS COLD WEATHER GEAR, AND TO ACCOMMODATE THE PERSONNEL ARMOR SYSTEM FOR GROUND TROOPS (PASGT).
APPROPRIATE AUTHORITY MAY PRESCRIBE PASGT ITEMS FOR WEAR WITH THE NWU. THE TERM "APPROPRIATE AUTHORITY" REFERS TO COMMANDERS, COMMANDING OFFICERS, AND OFFICERS IN CHARGE. THE MANDATORY WEAR DATE IS 31 DECEMBER 2010.
3. OCCASION FOR WEAR. THE NWU IS DESIGNED TO BE WORN IN ENVIRONMENTS (AT SEA AND ASHORE) THAT DO NOT REQUIRE SPECIAL CLOTHING (E.G. FLIGHT, FLIGHT DECK, ENGINE ROOM, ETC.).
UNLESS OTHERWISE PRESCRIBED BY THE REGIONAL COMMANDER, THE NWU IS AUTHORIZED TO BE WORN AT ALL FACILITIES ON BASE, WHILE COMMUTING TO/FROM WORK AND HOME VIA POV OR PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION, AND ON GOVERNMENT/MILITARY CONTRACTED FLIGHTS TO OR FROM OCONUS LOCATIONS. ROUTINE STOPS WHILE COMMUTING ARE NOT AUTHORIZED. GENUINE EMERGENCIES, SUCH AS MEDICAL AND VEHICLE BREAKDOWNS, ARE THE ONLY AUTHORIZED STOPS.
4. BASIC NWU COMPONENTS INCLUDE NAVY BLUE COTTON UNDERSHIRT, BLACK BOOT SOCKS, BLOUSING STRAPS, 9 INCH BLACK LEATHER SAFETY BOOTS, 1 1/4 INCH UNISEX GRADE DEPENDENT (KHAKI OR BLACK) COTTON OR NYLON WEB BELT WITH BUCKLE (SILVER FOR E6 AND BELOW AND GOLD FOR E7 AND ABOVE), UNISEX EIGHT POINT CAP, UNISEX SHIRT AND TROUSERS, COLLAR DEVICES (E4 AND ABOVE), SERVICE AND NAME TAPE.
5. PRESCRIBED NWU COMPONENTS INCLUDE BLACK MOCK NECK SWEATER, MATCHING PATTERN GORTEX PARKA WITH BLACK REMOVABLE FLEECE LINER AND BLACK KNIT WATCH CAP.
6. OPTIONAL NWU COMPONENTS INCLUDE 9 INCH BLACK ROUGH-OUT SAFETY BOOTS, EARMUFFS (WITH OUTER-GARMENTS ONLY), EARRINGS (GOLD BALL FOR FEMALE E7 AND ABOVE AND SILVER BALL FOR FEMALE E6 AND BELOW), OVERSHOES, AND BLACK LEATHER GLOVES (WITH OUTER-GARMENTS ONLY).
7. MANNER OF WEAR. STANDARD OF APPEARANCE FOR ALL PERSONNEL WEARING THE NWU IS AS FOLLOWS:
A. THE FOLLOWING HEADGEAR MAY BE WORN WITH THE NWU:
(1) EIGHT POINT CAP WILL BE WORN SQUARELY ON THE HEAD SO THAT THE VISOR IS ON A LINE AND JUST ABOVE THE LEVEL OF THE EYES. RANK/RATE INSIGNIA IS REQUIRED FOR E4 AND ABOVE PERSONNEL.
(2) NAVY KNIT WATCH CAP, WHEN AUTHORIZED BY APPROPRIATE AUTHORITY, WILL BE WORN DURING COLD WEATHER CONDITIONS THAT MAY RESULT IN PERSONAL INJURY IF NOT WORN. THE WATCH CAP WILL BE WORN DIAGONALLY FROM THE BASE OF THE BACK OF THE HEAD, ACROSS THE EARS AND ON THE FOREHEAD. RANK/RATE INSIGNIA IS NOT AUTHORIZED TO BE WORN ON THE WATCH
CAP.
B. UNDERSHIRTS SHALL BE NAVY BLUE, COTTON, QUARTER-LENGTH SLEEVE, WITH AN ELLIPTICAL (CREW-NECK) COLLAR. ORGANIZATION ISSUED OR PERSONALLY PURCHASED THERMAL UNDERWEAR IS AUTHORIZED TO BE WORN UNDERNEATH THE NWU UNDERSHIRT AND TROUSERS. THERMAL UNDERWEAR WILL NOT BE VISIBLE WHEN WORN UNDERNEATH THE UNDERSHIRT.
C. SOCKS SHALL BE BLACK AND EXTEND ABOVE THE TOP OF THE 9 INCH SAFETY BOOT TO ENSURE COMFORT.
D. THE NORMAL WEAR OF THE NWU SHIRT IS OUTSIDE THE WAISTBAND OF THE NWU TROUSERS. WHEN DIRECTED BY APPROPRIATE AUTHORITY, THE SHIRT WILL BE WORN INSIDE THE TROUSER WAISTBAND (TUCKED IN). CENTERED BELOW THE WEARER'S LEFT POCKET FLAP OF THE SHIRT IS THE SEAL OF THE NAVY FLAG (ACE). SLEEVES MAY BE WORN ROLLED UP AS DIRECTED BY APPROPRIATE
AUTHORITY. WHEN AUTHORIZED, NWU SLEEVES WILL BE ROLLED (CUFF RIGHT-SIDE OUT) FORMING A 3 INCH WIDE BAND COVERED BY THE CUFF OF THE SHIRT (THE OUTSIDE FABRIC OF THE NWU WILL SHOW). THE TERMINATION POINT OF THE ROLL IS APPROXIMATELY 2 INCHES ABOVE THE ELBOW. THIS MANNER OF SLEEVE ROLL PRESENTS A SHORT SLEEVE APPEARANCE AND FACILITATES EXPEDITIOUS DE-ROLLING AND FASTENING DURING EMERGENT SITUATIONS.
E. THE NORMAL WEAR OF THE NWU TROUSERS IS FASTENED FULLY ON THE WAIST WITH BELT BUCKLED CENTERED OVER THE TROUSER FASTENER. THE TROUSER LEGS SHALL BE BLOUSED WITH BLOUSING STRAPS SO THE BLOUSE COVERS THE TOP THREE ROWS OF EYELETS. WHEN AUTHORIZED TO WEAR THE TROUSERS UNBLOUSED, THE TROUSER LEG LENGTH WILL NOT EXTEND BELOW THE BOTTOM OF THE SAFETY BOOT HEEL.
F. PERSONNEL E1-E6 WILL WEAR THE 1-1/4 INCH BLACK COTTON OR NYLON WOVEN WEB BELT, WITH SILVER FINISHED TIP, AND SILVER FINISHED CLOSED-FACE BUCKLE. OFFICERS AND CHIEF PETTY OFFICERS WILL WEAR A KHAKI COTTON OR NYLON WOVEN BELT WITH GOLD TIP AND GOLD CLOSED-FACE BUCKLE. PROPERLY WORN, THE BELT TIP WILL NOT EXTEND OUTWARD BEYOND THE BELT
BUCKLE TO EXPOSE THE (BLACK OR KHAKI) WEB BELT MATERIAL. A PLAIN OR DECORATED BUCKLE WITH APPROPRIATE NAVAL INSIGNIA, DESIGNS, THE INDIVIDUAL'S PRESENT COMMAND, OR IF STATIONED ASHORE A PREVIOUS SEA COMMAND/SQUADRON, OR DEVICES TO WHICH THE WEARER IS ENTITLED, MAY BE AUTHORIZED FOR OPTIONAL WEAR.
G. AUTHORIZED FOOTWEAR WORN WITH THE NWU INCLUDE A BLACK 9 INCH LEATHER (SMOOTH) SAFETY BOOT (STEEL-TOED) WITH BLACK LACES. SMOOTH LEATHER BOOTS WILL BE BLACKENED AND BUFFED. BOOTLACES WILL BE TUCKED IN A MANNER TO PRESENT A WELL-KEPT APPEARANCE. AN OPTIONAL 9 INCH ROUGH SIDE OUT LEATHER SAFETY BOOT (STEEL TOED) IS AUTHORIZED FOR
WEARING ASHORE.
H. THE BLACK PULLOVER MOCK "T" SWEATER IS AUTHORIZED FOR WEAR WITH THE NWU. THE SWEATER WILL BE WORN OVER THE UNDERSHIRT AND BENEATH THE NWU SHIRT.
I. RANK/RATE INSIGNIA:
(1) CAP INSIGNIA (RATE/RANK) WILL BE WORN CENTERED ON THE FRONT OF THE NWU EIGHT POINT CAP BY ALL OFFICERS, CHIEF PETTY OFFICERS, AND PETTY OFFICERS. THE BOTTOM OF THE INSIGNIA WILL BE APPROXIMATELY 1-1/4 INCH FROM THE VISOR.
(A) OFFICERS WILL WEAR THE REGULAR SIZE EMBROIDERED GRADE INSIGNIA. WHEN WEARING THE EAGLE INSIGNIA, EAGLE FACES TO THE WEARER'S RIGHT.
(B) CHIEF PETTY OFFICERS WILL WEAR THE 1-1/4 INCH EMBROIDERED CAP INSIGNIA.
(C) PETTY OFFICERS WILL WEAR THE REGULAR SIZE EMBROIDERED PETTY OFFICER CAP INSIGNIA.
(D) E3 AND BELOW WILL NOT WEAR A CAP INSIGNIA.
(2) THE APPROPRIATE EMBROIDERED RANK/RATE COLLAR INSIGNIAS WILL BE WORN ON THE NWU BY PERSONNEL E4 TO O10. EXCEPT FOR FLAG OFFICERS, THE CENTER OF THE INSIGNIA WILL BE PLACED AT A POINT APPROXIMATELY 1 INCH FROM THE FRONT AND LOWER EDGES OF THE COLLAR AND THE VERTICAL AXIS OF THE INSIGNIA WILL LIE ALONG AN IMAGINARY LINE BISECTING THE ANGLE OF THE COLLAR POINT. EAGLES FACE THE FRONT (INWARD).
(A) REAR ADMIRALS WILL WEAR THE REGULAR SIZE EMBROIDERED GRADE INSIGNIA. VICE ADMIRALS AND ADMIRALS WILL WEAR A SLIGHTLY SMALLER SIZE INSIGNIA TO PROPERLY FIT ON THE COLLAR. THE INSIGNIA WILL BE CENTERED BETWEEN THE TOP AND BOTTOM EDGE OF THE COLLAR, WITH THE OUTER EDGE OF THE INSIGNIA APPROXIMATELY 1 INCH FROM THE FRONT EDGE OF THE COLLAR, AND WITH ONE RAY OF EACH STAR POINTING TOWARD THE TOP EDGE OF THE COLLAR.
(B) LINE OFFICERS (O1-O6) WILL WEAR THE REGULAR SIZE EMBROIDERED GRADE INSIGNIA.
(C) STAFF CORPS OFFICERS AND WARRANT OFFICERS WILL WEAR THE REGULAR SIZE EMBROIDERED GRADE INSIGNIA ON THE RIGHT COLLAR AND APPROPRIATE EQUALLY SIZED CORPS DEVICE OR WARRANT OFFICERS' LINE DEVICE.
(D) CHIEF PETTY OFFICERS WILL WEAR THE 1-1/4 INCH EMBROIDERED CAP INSIGNIA.
(E) PETTY OFFICERS WILL WEAR THE APPROPRIATE MINIATURE EMBROIDERED PETTY OFFICER COLLAR INSIGNIA.
(F) ENLISTED RATING SPECIALTY INSIGNIAS ARE NOT AUTHORIZED TO BE WORN ON THE NWU.
J. ALL BREAST INSIGNIA WILL BE EMBROIDERED IN THE APPROPRIATE COLOR AND WORN AS FOLLOWS:
(1) COMMAND INSIGNIA (COMMAND AT-SEA, COMMAND ASHORE/PROJECT MANAGER) IS WORN ON THE NWU SHIRT ABOVE THE RIGHT POCKET CENTERED 1/4 INCH ABOVE THE NAME STRIP. THE COMMAND INSIGNIA CAN BE METAL OR EMBROIDERED ON A STRIP OF NWU FABRIC.
(2) WHEN AUTHORIZED, A MAXIMUM OF TWO WARFARE/QUALIFICATION INSIGNIA MAY BE WORN ON THE NWU. THE SIZE OF THE FABRIC STRIP ON WHICH THEY ARE EMBROIDERED WILL BE OF THE NWU PATTERN, RECTANGULAR/SQUARE, AND THE APPROXIMATE SIZE OF THE INSIGNIA. THE PRIMARY BREAST INSIGNIA WILL BE WORN CENTERED ABOVE AND FLUSH WITH THE "U.S. NAVY" IDENTIFICATION MARKING ON THE SHIRT. SECONDARY BREAST INSIGNIA WILL BE WORN CENTERED ON THE WEARER'S LEFT POCKET FLAP. ENLISTED PERSONNEL AUTHORIZED TO WEAR TWO WARFARE/QUALIFICATION INSIGNIA AND AN IDENTIFICATION BADGE (ON WORKING UNIFORMS AS NOTED IN PARA 7.K BELOW)
MAY WEAR THE PRIMARY AND SECONDARY WARFARE/QUALIFICATION INSIGNIA CENTERED AND FLUSH ABOVE THE "U.S. NAVY" FABRIC STRIP. THE NWU IS THE ONLY UNIFORM IN WHICH TWO WARFARE INSIGNIAS MAY BE WORN IN THIS MANNER. PRIMARY AND SECONDARY WARFARE INSIGNIA POSITIONS WILL BE AS PRESCRIBED IN ARTICLE 5201.2.C.(3).(C) OF REF A.
K. IDENTIFICATION BADGES: THE FOLLOWING IDENTIFICATION BADGES ARE AUTHORIZED TO BE WORN ON THE NWU: NAVY/FLEET/FORCE/COMMAND MASTER, SENIOR, CHIEF BADGES, COMMAND CAREER COUNSELOR, RECRUIT DIVISION COMMANDER, AND SECURITY/LAW ENFORCEMENT. THE WEARING OF AUTHORIZED BADGES ARE AS FOLLOWS:
(1) ALL ENLISTED PERSONNEL WILL WEAR IDENTIFICATION BADGES ON THE NWU SHIRT CENTERED ON THE WEARER'S LEFT POCKET FLAP.
(2) ALL OFFICERS WILL WEAR IDENTIFICATION BADGES ABOVE THE WEARER'S RIGHT POCKET CENTERED 1/4 INCH ABOVE THEIR NAME.
(3) IDENTIFICATION BADGES CAN BE EITHER METAL OR EMBROIDERED ON A STRIP OF NWU FABRIC. PIN ON DEVICES SHALL NOT BE WORN ON THE NWU WHEN METAL DEVICES MIGHT PRESENT A FOD OR SAFETY HAZARD.
L. IDENTIFICATION MARKINGS: IDENTIFICATION MARKINGS WILL BE EMBROIDERED IN APPROXIMATELY 3/4 INCH BLOCK LETTERS ON APPROXIMATELY 1-1/4 INCH WIDE FABRIC STRIPS UNIFORM. NAMES EXCEEDINGLY LONG CAN BE EMBROIDERED IN APPROXIMATELY 1/2 INCH LETTERS. PROPER LOCATIONS OF FABRIC STRIPS ARE AS FOLLOWS:
(1) NWU SHIRT:
(A) WEARER'S SURNAME WILL BE SEWN CENTERED ABOVE AND FLUSH WITH THE TOP OF THE WEARER'S RIGHT SHIRT POCKET.
(B) "U.S. NAVY" WILL BE SEWN CENTERED ABOVE AND FLUSH WITH THE TOP OF THE WEARER'S LEFT SHIRT POCKET.
(C) RATING BADGES WILL NOT BE WORN OR STENCILED ON THE NWU.
(D) AUTHORIZED (CURRENT ASSIGNMENT) FORCE OR COMMAND/UNIT PATCH MAY BE WORN ON THE WEARER'S RIGHT BREAST POCKET. THE SIZE OF THE PATCH SHALL NOT EXCEED 3 TO 3-1/2 INCHES IN LENGTH/WIDTH/DIAMETER. WHEN WORN, THE PATCH WILL BE SEWN CENTERED ON THE POCKET BELOW THE POCKET FLAP TO ALLOW FOR EASY REMOVAL AND MINIMUM EXPENSE.
(2) NWU TROUSERS: THE WEARER'S SURNAME WILL BE SEWN CENTERED ABOVE AND FLUSH WITH THE TOP OF THE RIGHT REAR TROUSER POCKET.
(3) NWU PARKA: FABRIC PULL ON/OFF RANK INSIGNIA TABS SHALL BE WORN BY E4 AND ABOVE PERSONNEL ON THE PARKA'S CHEST PULL TAB AS FOLLOWS:
(A) OFFICERS, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF VICE ADMIRALS AND ADMIRALS, WILL WEAR A SLIP-ON VERSION OF THE REGULAR SIZE EMBROIDERED GRADE INSIGNIA. WHEN WEARING THE EAGLE INSIGNIA, EAGLE FACES TO THE WEARER'S RIGHT. VICE ADMIRALS AND ADMIRALS WILL WEAR A SLIGHTLY
SMALLER SIZE INSIGNIA TO ACCOMMODATE THE INSIGNIA'S PROPER FIT ON THE TAB. THE STARS WILL BE STACKED VERTICALLY POINT TO CENTER.
(B) MASTER, SENIOR, AND CHIEF PETTY OFFICERS WILL WEAR A SLIP-ON VERSION OF THE 1-1/4 INCH EMBROIDERED CAP DEVICE ON THE TAB.
(C) FIRST, SECOND, AND THIRD CLASS PETTY OFFICERS WILL WEAR A SLIP-ON VERSION OF THE APPROPRIATE EMBROIDERED PETTY OFFICER CAP DEVICE ON THE TAB. THE EAGLE FACES TO THE WEARER'S RIGHT.
(D) RATING SPECIALTY INSIGNIAS ARE NOT AUTHORIZED TO BE WORN ON THE TAB.
M. THE PARKA IS THE ONLY AUTHORIZED OUTERWEAR WORN WITH THE NWU. IT HAS A DETACHABLE BLACK FLEECE LINER THAT PROVIDES EXTRA COMFORT AND PROTECTION DURING EXTREMELY COLD CONDITIONS. THE ACCOMPANIED BLACK FLEECE LINER IS THE ONLY LINER AUTHORIZED TO BE WORN WITH THE NWU. THE BLACK FLEECE LINER IS NOT AUTHORIZED TO BE WORN AS A STAND ALONE OUTER-GARMENT. THE PARKA IS EQUIPPED WITH A FOLD-OUT HOOD LOCATED INSIDE THE VELCRO CLOSURE SECTION OF THE COLLAR. THE HOOD IS DESIGNED TO PROVIDE
ADDITIONAL PROTECTION DURING INCLEMENT WEATHER CONDITIONS. TO ENSURE ITS WATER TIGHT INTEGRITY, PUNCTURING, PINNING, OR SEWING ITEMS TO THE PARKA IS NOT AUTHORIZED.
N. EXISTING NAVY UNIFORM REGULATIONS GROOMING STANDARDS APPLY WHEN WEARING THE NWU.
O. FOR ENVIRONMENTAL EXTREMES THE FOLLOWING MODIFICATIONS ARE AUTHORIZED WHEN GRANTED BY APPROPRIATE AUTHORITY (REGIONAL COMMANDER/COMMANDING OFFICER).
(1) THE NWU SHIRT MAY BE REMOVED ON JOB SITES OR IN WORK SPACES.
(2) NWU TROUSERS MAY BE WORN UNBLOUSED ON JOB SITES OR IN WORKSPACES.
(3) DURING THE WINTER OR INCLEMENT PERIODS, THE PARKA HOOD IS AUTHORIZED FOR WEAR IN ADDITION TO HEAD GEAR. BLACK LEATHER GLOVES ARE AUTHORIZED.
/
BT

[Snuggle Bunny]

I have been in for almost 15 years and have seen alot of changes but it seems there have always been 2 sets of rules one for E-6 and below and the khaki clan have there own. I dont see what the big deal is about wearing uniforms out in town. We see everyday shipmates wearing uniforms to exchanges etc. There are tooo many things going on for more rules and it shows out of touch some of these rules are and can be as long as the uniforms are neat clean and ironed I dont see any issue except for certain people being bored sitting at a desk or cubicle somewhere making up rules when the only one who makes the rules are the ones who where the uniforms not some officer who has never worn an enlisted uniform and just the same for them someone who wears there respected uniform. Chiefs have enough issues going on more rules for them to enforce is not what we need. As a second class I have been in alot of places had alot of responseabilty from protecting my base as a member of ASF to proctecting my shipmates and my command when I am told I think we can make the decesion on what to where again as long as they are neat clean and ironed .


Here is the Region Mid-Atlantic NWU Implementation message. Bottom line, "see the CNO's message, and you are NOT permitted to press, crease or starch this uniform. And we're accelerating implementation - all hands have to wear it on 01OCT09 and no other working uniforms other than coveralls are authorized."

DTG: 221056Z Jan 09
Precedence: ROUTINE
DAC: General
To: AIG 106, AIG 7729, AIG 9987, AL 106(UC), AL 7729(UC), AL 9987(UC), AL ALL NAVACTS NORTHEAST(UC), ALL NAVACTS NORTHEAST
Cc: COMUSFLTFORCOM NORFOLK VA, NEXCOM NORFOLK VA(UC)
--------------------------------------------------

UNCLASSIFIED//
MSGID/GENADMIN,USMTF,2007/COMNAVREG MIDLANT NORFOLK VA(UC)/N01/JAN// SUBJ/NAVY WORKING UNIFORM (NWU) - CNRMA ROLL OUT SCHEDULE AND REGION /GUIDANCE// REF/A/MSGID:MSG/CNO WASHINGTON DC N1 /021922ZDEC2008// REF/B/MSGID:DOC/COMNAVREGMIDLANT/YMD:20070924/1020.1A//
NARR/REF A IS NAVADMIN 343/08. REF B IS CNRMA UNIFORM GUIDANCE.// GENTEXT/REMARKS/1. REF A ANNOUNCED ROLLOUT OF THE NAVY WORKING UNIFORM (NWU) TO COMMENCE JAN 2009. COMMANDER NAVY REGION MID-ATLANTIC (CNRMA), AS SOPA ADMIN FOR THE REGION, HAS DEVELOPED THE ROLLOUT SCHEDULE AND THE REGION UNIFORM GUIDANCE FOR THE MID-ATLANTIC REGION.

2. REF A REMAINS THE PRIMARY GUIDANCE FOR THE NAVY WORKING UNIFORM. THE FOLLOWING GUIDANCE IS PROVIDED IN ADDITION TO ENSURE A SUCCESSFUL ROLLOUT AND PROPER WEAR OF THE UNIFORM. THE NWU IS NOW WIDELY AVAILABLE FOR PURCHASE AT ALL HAMPTON ROADS AREA UNIFORM SHOPS AS WELL AS FOR ORDER VIA ONLINE OR TELEPHONE. ALL HANDS ARE ENCOURAGED TO BEGIN IMMEDIATE PROCUREMENT OF THE NEW NWU. REF B WILL BE UPDATED AND DISTRIBUTED WITH THE INFORMATION WITHIN THIS MESSAGE.

3. THE CNRMA TRANSITION TO THE NWU WILL BE IN TWO PHASES BASED ON THE ROLLOUT SCHEDULE PUBLISHED IN REF A.
A. TIDEWATER (NORTH CAROLINA, WEST VIRGINIA, VIRGINIA AND MARYLAND, EXCEPT THOSE PORTIONS LOCATED INSIDE OF NAVAL DISTRICT WASHINGTON) BEGINS IMMEDIATELY.
B. ALL CNRMA, OUTSIDE OF TIDEWATER, BEGINS 6 JULY 2009.
C. COMPLETE TRANSITION TO NWU SHALL BE ACCOMPLISHED WITHIN THE TIDEWATER AREA FOR ALL COMMANDS NO LATER THAN 1 OCTOBER 2009.
D. COMMANDING OFFICERS SHALL DESIGNATE THE SPECIFIC DATE TO BEGIN TRANSITION. THE INTENT IS TO ALLOW THE COMMANDING OFFICER TO CONSIDER CURRENT COMMAND EMPLOYMENT AND ALLOW A SMOOTH TRANSITION.
(1) COMMAND SPECIFIC EXECUTION PLANS SHOULD INCLUDE A TWO WEEK PERIOD WHERE THE CO, XO, AND CMC WEAR THE NWU FOLLOWED BY A TWO WEEK PERIOD THAT E-7 AND ABOVE WEAR THE NWU. THESE PERIODS ALLOW TIME TO CONDUCT TRAINING THROUGHOUT THE COMMAND USING REF A.
(2) SINCE THE TIDEWATER AREA IS THE FIRST REGION TO TRANSITION, IT IS OUR INTENT TO TRANSITION SMARTLY, TO LEARN FROM OUR EXPERIENCES, AND PASS THE LESSON'S LEARNED TO THE OTHER REGIONS.
E. CNRMA NWU TRANSITION SUMMARY:
(1) IMMEDIATELY - BEGIN NWU WEAR IN TIDEWATER.
(2) 6 JULY 2009 - BEGIN NWU WEAR FOR THE REMAINDER OF CNRMA.
(3) 1 OCTOBER 2009 - NWU IS THE PRIMARY WORKING UNIFORM FOR ALL TIDEWATER AREA COMMANDS AND ALL PREVIOUS WORKING UNIFORMS WILL ONLY BE WORN AS THE SECONDARY EXCEPTION UNTIL THE CLOSEOUT OF THE UNIFORM ON 31 DECEMBER 2010. SECONDARY EXCEPTIONS WILL BE AUTHORIZED ON A CASE BY CASE BASIS BY THE COMMANDING OFFICER TO ACCOUNT FOR SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES (I.E., A SAILOR TRANSFERS FROM A COMMAND IN A REGION THAT HAS NOT YET TRANSITIONED TO NWU, AND HAS BEEN UNABLE TO PROCURE THE NEW UNIFORM.)
(4) 1 MAY 2010 - NWU IS THE PRIMARY AUTHORIZED WORKING UNIFORM THROUGHOUT CNRMA AND ALL PREVIOUS WORKING UNIFORMS WILL ONLY BE WORN AS THE SECONDARY EXCEPTION UNTIL THE CLOSEOUT OF THE UNIFORM TRANSITION PERIOD ON 31 DECEMBER 2010. SECONDARY EXCEPTIONS WILL BE AUTHORIZED ON A CASE BY CASE BASIS BY THE COMMANDING OFFICER.
(5) 31 DECEMBER 2010 - PER REF A, NWU IS THE ONLY WORKING UNIFORM E-1 TO 0-10 THROUGHOUT THE NAVY.
4. THE FOLLOWING GUIDANCE IS PROVIDED AND WILL BE PUBLISHED IN A FORTHCOMING UPDATE TO REF B:
A. ALL UNITS SHALL WEAR THE NWU AS THE PRIMARY WORKING UNIFORM. (NAVY COVERALLS WILL REMAIN AUTHORIZED FOR SHIPBOARD WEAR.) ONLY THOSE SITUATIONS THAT REQUIRE ORGANIZATIONAL CLOTHING DUE TO SAFETY OR EXCESSIVE WEAR SHALL BE AUTHORIZED FOR ORGANIZATION CLOTHING ISSUE AND WEAR, AND ORGANIZATIONAL CLOTHING WEAR RULES WILL APPLY.
B. THE NWU IS DESIGNED TO BE A PERMANENT PRESS, WASH AND WEAR UNIFORM. IN ORDER TO MAXIMIZE THE SERVICE LIFE AND MAINTAIN OPTIMAL PERFORMANCE, FOLLOW THE WASH AND CARE INSTRUCTIONS INDICATED ON EACH NWU UNIFORM ARTICLE. A HAND IRON SET ON LOW HEAT MAY BE USED TO INDIVIDUALLY PRESS THE UNIFORM AS NECESSARY TO PROVIDE A NEAT APPEARANCE. CREATING CREASES IN THE NWU IS NOT AUTHORIZED. THE USE OF STARCH, SIZING AND ANY PROCESS THAT INVOLVES DRY-CLEANING OR A STEAM PRESS IS NOT AUTHORIZED AS IT WILL ADVERSELY AFFECT THE PERMANENT PRESS TREATMENT AND DURABILITY OF THE UNIFORM.
C. ALL UNIFORM ARTICLES NOT CURRENTLY CONTAINING A NAME TAPE SHOULD BE STENCILED IN PERMANENT INK IN A LOCATION INSIDE THE ARTICLE AND NOT WITHIN SIGHT. OF PARTICULAR INTEREST SHOULD BE THE PARKA, PARKA LINER, AND COVER.
D. ROLLING UP OF THE SLEEVES IS AUTHORIZED YEAR AROUND FOR ALL NWU AND CUU. HOWEVER, IF IN FORMATION, ALL HANDS SHALL HAVE SLEEVES IN THE SAME POSITION FOR UNIFORMITY.
E. THE NWU HAS MANY POCKETS FOR VERSATILITY AND SHOULD BE USED PROPERLY WITHOUT ITEMS PROTRUDING FROM THE POCKET ENABLING THE POCKET FLAPS TO CLOSE PROPERLY. AT NO TIME SHOULD HANDS BE IN THE POCKETS EXTENDED BEYOND THE TIME REQUIRED TO PLACE ITEMS IN OR RETRIEVE ITEMS FROM THE POCKETS.
F. CO'S ARE DIRECTED TO LIMIT THE AUTHORIZATION OF UNBLOUSED TROUSERS AND THIS WILL NOT BE AUTHORIZED FOR GENERAL WEARING OF THE NWU. CONSIDERATION SHOULD ONLY BE GIVEN IN THOSE SITUATIONS THAT ARE CONSIDERED SAFETY RELATED.
G. COMMAND UNIT PATCHES ARE AUTHORIZED ON THE RIGHT BREAST POCKET. EACH COMMAND MAY AUTHORIZE ONLY ONE COMMAND SELECTED PATCH AND WILL REMAIN CONSISTENT AND UNIFORM FOR ALL ASSIGNED, AND WILL NOT EXCEED 3 TO 3 AND ONE HALF INCHES IN LENGTH/WIDTH/DIAMETER. THE PATCH SHOULD BE CONSERVATIVE IN NATURE TO NOT DETRACT FROM THE APPEARANCE OF THE UNIFORM. EACH COMMAND MUST REMAIN UNIFORM AND IF ASSIGNED BY THE COMMAND THE PATCH WILL BE WORN BY ALL HANDS WITHIN THE UNIT.
H. THE 9 INCH ROUGH SIDE OUT LEATHER SAFETY BOOT THAT IS AUTHORIZED ASHORE IS NOT A CARE FREE BOOT. THIS BOOT MUST BE PROPERLY MAINTAINED WITH AN APPROPRIATE BRUSH TO MAINTAIN THE PROPER APPEARANCE OF THE BOOT AND REDUCE THE MATTING OF THE LEATHER MATERIAL.
I. CNRMA SECURITY WEAR OF NWU:
(1) THE ISSUE OF ORGANIZATION CUU'S FOR CNRMA SECURITY PERSONNEL WILL STOP PRIOR TO THE END OF FISCAL YEAR 2009. CURRENTLY ISSUED CUU'S MAY BE WORN DURING THE TRANSITION PERIOD FOR CNRMA. FINAL TRANSITION OF SECURITY INTO THE NWU WILL REMAIN CONSISTENT WITH THE CNRMA TRANSITION DATES (CNIC HAS ALREADY PROMULGATED THIS GUIDANCE.)
(2) THE NWU AUTHORIZES THE REMOVAL OF THE SHIRT IN A WORK SPACE. REMOVAL OF THIS SHIRT IS NOT AUTHORIZED AT ANY ACCESS POINTS TO A CNRMA INSTALLATION. SHIRTS WILL REMAIN DONNED ON ALL GATES.
5. TRAINING IS REQUIRED TO BE CONDUCTED BY SENIOR LEADERSHIP AND WILL DICTATE THE SUCCESS OF THE ROLLOUT AND WEAR OF THE NWU. LEADERS AT EVERY LEVEL ARE EXPECTED TO REMAIN ENGAGED WITH OUR SAILORS THROUGHOUT THE REGION TO ENSURE THE PROPER WEAR AND OCCASION FOR WEAR. YOUR SUPPORT AND LEADERSHIP IN THIS EFFORT IS GREATLY APPRECIATED.
6. RADM BOENSEL SENDS.//

[Snuggle Bunny]

I really wish people would cease and desist with the "dirtbag sailor" talk. I have been an officer for 16 years, and the quality of our sailors keeps getting better and better. The dirtbag sailor you speak about just hasn't been properly led, and it's your job to square him away in a professional manner. Ever single time I've pointed something out that they were not doing properly (wearing a flight jacket when they are not aviators, wearing the Mustang jacket at the exchange, etc) their answer was befuddlement, claimed ignorance OR a genuine "you now what Sir, thanks for telling me, I never knew that and I really appreciate you telling me that".

[Snuggle Bunny]

First, when I wore dungarees, I and everyone else drove to work in civilian clothes, changed, and reversed the process on the way home. Eveyone did it, it wasn't hard.

Second, that it wasn't hard isn't really the point. The new uniform itself looks sharp, but the implementation has been poor. The reality that changing uniforms isn't hard to do is overwhelmed by the perception that the new uniform regulations are in place just to make things harder when they could make things easier by simply changing some words on some pieces of paper. That the people implementing the new uniform policy didn't foresee this happening indicates that they may have been the wrong people to implement it.

Change NWU policy to make it commensurate with USA and USAF policy for similar uniforms.

We have always had too many uniforms, our seabags from junior enlisted to senior officer are far too large for shipboard use. If we're not going to get rid of uniforms, the least we could do is to decide prior to each deployment what the minimum uniform requirement is, put it out, and expect no more. Do I really need mess dress blue and white, sword, SDB, choker whites, summer whites, winter blues, khakis, wash khakis (not for long), NWU, and flight suits on every cruise? Why can't it be flight suits, NWU, and SDB - done?

Reduce the seabag by half or put out a predeployment list of uniforms that is as short as practical and stick to it. Other services manage to put out a list far enough in advance that their members can pack a bag 6 months ahead of time, grab it and go when the time comes to deploy. Easy. Anyone can do it. We should do it. The old ways are not always the best ways.

We're getting there. We're going from 8 working uniforms (if you break out the tropicals into 2 different trops, theres 8) to 2. We're going from 3 Service Uniforms to 2. Those are the big ones anyone would bring on deployment.

While I agree we should align our working uniform policy to that of the Army and Air Force, we have chosen (for now) to align to that of the Marine Corps as our fellow Sea Service. They do not - and have never - allowed their Marines to wear cammies off base. It may change or it may not. but it was a conscious choice to do that, not a mistake or "poor decision" or an attempt to make it harder.

This uniform has been out in force for only about 2 weeks here in Tidewater and it looks very, very professional. I've asked multiple sailor what they think so far, and every one has either liked it or loved it. Sadly, I cannot wear it - my command has directed only enlisted will wear it and officers and chiefs CANNOT.

[Snuggle Bunny]

A situation was presented to me within the past few days. Myself and a fellow CPO were lodging off base at a local hotel. In the morning there were several sailors in BDU's preparing to head to the continental breakfast room and then head to the base. Navy regs states that camouflage utilities are unauthorized in restaurants. This was a clear violation of the regs. In this setting, we set the policy by not brandishing the sailors at fault (and yes at least two were officers). The setting was not inappropriate, but was against regs. If the aquaflage regs are relaxed we will still see situations as this one that will dictate how the uniforms will be worn. Until then we need to roger up and wear the uniforms correctly.

PAMICH, it's inside the hotel where they are staying and they're likely just grabbing a bite to eat (provided by the hotel) before they head to their TAD. It's allowed. I would have no problem with it if they were wearing NWUs either. It's when they go outside over to Denny's that I would stop them.

[Snuggle Bunny]

I agree with the way the rules currently are. It's a working uniform designed for dirty work. As Master Chief West stated: "...it was critical that Sailors learn how to wear the uniform before unveiling it to the American public in our schools and communities" The MCPON stressed that if Sailors want the policy changed, it's up to them to prove they're ready. I can't see this happening.

As one shipmate said we should be able to determine if our uniform is presentably, to which if I am going out in town it better be recruiting worthy. How many times how we walked through the gate onto the pier and seen a fellow shipmate wearing his/her coveralls (which by the way is against regs) and though how nasty they were and ashamed you were to be wearing the same uniform. And coveralls have been around for a while. How hard is it to come in a few minutes earlier and change. If they do soften the rules, the stops better be just for emergencies: car breaking down, emergency gas, and maybe to pick up a kid. No malls, no milk and bread, no movie rental.

As for what the Army and Air Force wear, I don't care. I'm in the Navy and if we want to hold ourselves to a higher standard, I happy with that.
As for the idea that we can't wear utilities out in town because the navy thought they looked like prison uniforms. Chiefs and officers can't wear there working khaki's and we had two officers in Aviator Greens which look sharp but they can't wear them out in town because they're working uniforms, not because they look like prison outfits.
If you need to have someone stop you in say thank you for serving, go home change into service dress and go walk around town all you want.


I have now seen hundreds of Sailors in the NWUs here in the Tidewater area, and always give them a brief once-over if I can do so unobtrusively. With VERY few exceptions, every sailor looks sharp and is wearing it properly. The one item I have seen a lot is improperly bloused boots, but most have never had to blouse their boots before and just don't know how. A kind word about how to blouse corrects that instantly and likely, forever. The other one I've seen is the warfare insignia being sewn on improperly, where it stretches out to match the length of the US NAVY tape. It's supposed to be trimmed down to just the size of the pin. Other than that, everyone looks SHARP!

[Snuggle Bunny]

What gets me is that the Navy is quick to say that heritage must be preserved and that "today's" Sailors lack understanding Navy culture...

Isn't changing the traditional Navy uniform one of the worst things that can be done to our heritage/culture?

Hypocrisy at its best...

If by heritage you mean a uniform like the utilities, which looks unlike any other working/field uniform of any other warfighting service, and more resembles that of a garage mechanic, I say flush the heritage. Heritage also brings us the lovely ship's bell, ringing incessantly throughout the day even though everyone wears watches these days. I hate those damn bells. When I'm CNO I'll ban them (I can't actually be CNO since I'm a Supply Corps Officer)

[Yggdrasil]

If by heritage you mean a uniform like the utilities, which looks unlike any other working/field uniform of any other warfighting service, and more resembles that of a garage mechanic, I say flush the heritage. Heritage also brings us the lovely ship's bell, ringing incessantly throughout the day even though everyone wears watches these days. I hate those damn bells. When I'm CNO I'll ban them (I can't actually be CNO since I'm a Supply Corps Officer)

Utilities aren't heritage anyway. They've only been around for ten years. Most children born when the utilities came out aren't even in junior high/middle school yet, or haven't even grown their first pube - so why people thing that utilities are "heritage" are beyond me.

[Snuggle Bunny]

I’ve been wondering about command ballcaps with the blue digital cammies. I can see the ballcap with the uniform. Maybe eventually they’ll come up with a blue digital hat with a command patch on it for use with the cammie uniform. But…
The TFU does seem out of control in the past decade or so. From the time I joined the Navy at the end of 1981 to the time I made Chief in 1999 the only uniform changes were: to add flaps to the dungaree’s chambray shirt pockets; and the elimination of the general wearing of the salt and pepper uniform. But the chambray shirt change was such that you could wear to flapless shirts until unserviceable. I made Chief just in time to not be required to have utilities. But in the past decade, starting with the switch from dungs to utilities, there have been more (major) uniform changes than you can keep track of. Yeah, the TFU is (Totally Fncked Up and) out of control.

Dan

You cannot wear a ballcap with the NWUs unless you are underway, or on the pier working in the immediate vicinity of the ship, AND you are ship's company. You can put your command patch on the right pocket instead.

I actually went back into this post because a different forum indicated the ballcap cannot be worn with this uniform. So I went back and checked the NAVADMIN, and the ballcap is not listed as a basic component, a prescribed component OR an optional component. Thus it is in fact not allowed. So I apologize for stating this incorrect gouge. I must have read it elsewhere during the wear-test period, and it changed.

[Snuggle Bunny]

I can't see wearing ball caps with the NWU. It seems an odd mix of uniform components to me. I mean why does everyone like command ball caps, just because it is a baseball cap? No, it's pride in your unit and letting everyone know what ship/sub/command you are from. I would like to see some sort of unit identifier being able to be worn in the NWU, I'm just not sure what the best way to do that is. The ball cap kind of clashes with the digital pattern, and patches on your shoulder like the Army is too much of a copycat thing for me, so I'm not sure what the best answer is.

I don't know that I agree is TFU is that out of control. There have been a lot of big changes in the last 3-5 years, but wasn't that the point? I don't agree with every decision they've made, but I do like that they are not afraid to make them. It's not easy to walk the line between modernization and tradition particularly when you have such distinctive uniforms as the service dress uniforms and they are essentially untouchable.

You can put your command patch on your right breast pocket. There's size limitations bout they're delineated in the NAVADMIN that came out on December 2nd, and in the Region Mid-Atlantic message that came out in mid-January.

[Snuggle Bunny]

I'm stationed in San Antonio, and I saw it for the first time this morning. He was wearing a red ball cap. Before I got close enough to notice that he was in the Air Force, I thought it was some old guy getting ready to go hunting.

He's a member of the "Red Horse". It's a contingency engineering group the Air Force created to go in and fix a damaged airfield to get it up and running. Somewhat similar to our Seabees. The best example is Bagram Airbase in Afghanistan - they fixed it up after we siezed it and we were running heavy lift in there within days or weeks instead of months.

[Snuggle Bunny]

THE NWU IS INTENDED FOR YEAR-ROUND WEAR AND SHALL BE THE STANDARD
WORKING UNIFORM ASHORE. THE NWU IS DESIGNED TO ACCOMMODATE MALE AND
FEMALE SAILORS AND TO FULFILL MULTI-FUNCTIONAL/GEOGRAPHICAL UNIFORM
REQUIREMENTS AT SEA AND ASHORE. THE NWU WILL REPLACE WORKING UTILITIES,
TROPICAL WORKING UNIFORMS, WASH KHAKIS, WINTER WORKING BLUE, AVIATION
WORKING GREEN AND NON-TACTICAL/ENVIRONMENTAL USAGE OF CAMOUFLAGE
UTILITY UNIFORMS (CUU). IT IS ALSO DESIGNED TO MINIMIZE THE
REQUIREMENT FOR VARIOUS COLD WEATHER GEAR, AND TO ACCOMMODATE THE
PERSONNEL ARMOR SYSTEM FOR GROUND TROOPS (PASGT).
APPROPRIATE AUTHORITY MAY PRESCRIBE PASGT ITEMS FOR WEAR WITH THE NWU.
THE TERM "APPROPRIATE AUTHORITY" REFERS TO COMMANDERS, COMMANDING
OFFICERS, AND OFFICERS IN CHARGE. THE MANDATORY WEAR DATE IS 31
DECEMBER 2010.
3. OCCASION FOR WEAR. THE NWU IS DESIGNED TO BE WORN IN ENVIRONMENTS
(AT SEA AND ASHORE) THAT DO NOT REQUIRE SPECIAL CLOTHING (E.G. FLIGHT,
FLIGHT DECK, ENGINE ROOM, ETC.).


From what i read and this is just my interpretation, the NWU will replace the coveralls as a normal underway uniform. From what i read in the NAVADMIN for wear it looks like it will be the working uniform "At Sea" unless you are an engineer or something that requires dirty work. But that is the way that i read the instruction. So it looks like OS's PS's rates like that, that do not work in areas exposed to heavy amounts of grease, paint or dirty work, will be wearing the NWU underway and the rest will be wearing coveralls while they are doing the "Dirty work" and they will probably go back to the way it was, Coveralls were organizational and the ship issued you coveralls to work in but no ranks or name tags were on them. Just my thoughts though.

The CO has the authority to decide on whether he wants to stay with the coveralls or shift to the NWU. I see a mixture coming off the ships so far but I know one submarine, the SCRANTON, deployed recently and they had shifted COMPLETELY over to the NWU. There was an article about it in the NAVY TIMES, with a picture.

[Snuggle Bunny]

I spent a bit of time on this because it's been about 2 months since the NWUs went on sale, it is hitting the Tidewater area in force, thousands of sailors are now wearing it, and nearly everyone looks absolutely GREAT. Keep it up folks - you may be able to wear it to pick up your kids sooner than you think.

Retirees and old salts - when you see our current sailors in this uniform, you'll be heartened.

[dulatice]

The CO has the authority to decide on whether he wants to stay with the coveralls or shift to the NWU. I see a mixture coming off the ships so far but I know one submarine, the SCRANTON, deployed recently and they had shifted COMPLETELY over to the NWU. There was an article about it in the NAVY TIMES, with a picture.

I'm sorry, but there is no way that I am going to go underway on a boat (submarine to you surface people) that has me wear the NWU while underway. That would be very uncomfortable, sitting in one place for 6 hours while wearing that. Also, we would look like retards wearing the NWU with tennis shoes (the preferred/recommended shoe for underway use on a boat).

[Snuggle Bunny]

You can take that approach initially but it won't last, because as you know, the CO will kill you, if the COB doesn't first.

[dulatice]

You can take that approach initially but it won't last, because as you know, the CO will kill you, if the COB doesn't first.

I decided to read the article in question, and they do not say anything about the NWU being worn underway. I am going to make the safe assumption that it is not being worn underway.

[ET1(SS) Keith]

I'm sorry, but there is no way that I am going to go underway on a boat (submarine to you surface people) that has me wear the NWU while underway. That would be very uncomfortable, sitting in one place for 6 hours while wearing that. Also, we would look like retards wearing the NWU with tennis shoes (the preferred/recommended shoe for underway use on a boat).

I agree with this one. And we don't wear tennis shoes/sneakers underway just because we can, we do it for sound silencing purposes(to hopefully quell any arguments you skimmers might throw at us).

[GUNMATE1]

The other one I've seen is the warfare insignia being sewn on improperly, where it stretches out to match the length of the US NAVY tape. It's supposed to be trimmed down to just the size of the pin. Other than that, everyone looks SHARP!

Where is this written in the regulation. I got it to match the U.S. Navy patch because when i wore DCU's that is how they were supposed to be. If you have it please send it my way.

[GUNMATE1]

The CO has the authority to decide on whether he wants to stay with the coveralls or shift to the NWU. I see a mixture coming off the ships so far but I know one submarine, the SCRANTON, deployed recently and they had shifted COMPLETELY over to the NWU. There was an article about it in the NAVY TIMES, with a picture.
Yes i saw that article too, but just becuase the pictures show them doing a uniform inspection before going onboard, do you know if their engineers are wearing them while they are working in the engineering spaces? That is what i was referring to when i wrote what i wrote.

[Snuggle Bunny]

Here's the 02 DEC NAVADMIN from the CNO (I cut-and-pasted only the section which discusses occasions for wear.)

2. THE NWU IS INTENDED FOR YEAR-ROUND WEAR AND SHALL BE THE STANDARD
WORKING UNIFORM ASHORE. THE NWU IS DESIGNED TO ACCOMMODATE MALE AND
FEMALE SAILORS AND TO FULFILL MULTI-FUNCTIONAL/GEOGRAPHICAL UNIFORM
REQUIREMENTS AT SEA AND ASHORE. THE NWU WILL REPLACE WORKING UTILITIES,
TROPICAL WORKING UNIFORMS, WASH KHAKIS, WINTER WORKING BLUE, AVIATION
WORKING GREEN AND NON-TACTICAL/ENVIRONMENTAL USAGE OF CAMOUFLAGE
UTILITY UNIFORMS (CUU). IT IS ALSO DESIGNED TO MINIMIZE THE
REQUIREMENT FOR VARIOUS COLD WEATHER GEAR, AND TO ACCOMMODATE THE
PERSONNEL ARMOR SYSTEM FOR GROUND TROOPS (PASGT).
APPROPRIATE AUTHORITY MAY PRESCRIBE PASGT ITEMS FOR WEAR WITH THE NWU.
THE TERM "APPROPRIATE AUTHORITY" REFERS TO COMMANDERS, COMMANDING
OFFICERS, AND OFFICERS IN CHARGE. THE MANDATORY WEAR DATE IS 31
DECEMBER 2010.
3. OCCASION FOR WEAR. THE NWU IS DESIGNED TO BE WORN IN ENVIRONMENTS
(AT SEA AND ASHORE) THAT DO NOT REQUIRE SPECIAL CLOTHING (E.G. FLIGHT,
FLIGHT DECK, ENGINE ROOM, ETC.).
UNLESS OTHERWISE PRESCRIBED BY THE REGIONAL COMMANDER, THE NWU IS
AUTHORIZED TO BE WORN AT ALL FACILITIES ON BASE, WHILE COMMUTING
TO/FROM WORK AND HOME VIA POV OR PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION, AND ON
GOVERNMENT/MILITARY CONTRACTED FLIGHTS TO OR FROM OCONUS LOCATIONS.
ROUTINE STOPS WHILE COMMUTING ARE NOT AUTHORIZED.
GENUINE EMERGENCIES, SUCH AS MEDICAL AND VEHICLE BREAKDOWNS, ARE THE
ONLY AUTHORIZED STOPS.

Many of the ships on the waterfront here in Norfolk have sailors that are wearing it.

[Snuggle Bunny]

http://www.military.com/news/article/navy-news/uss-scranton-deploys-in-newest-uniform.htmlUSS Scranton Deploys in Newest Uniform
February 24, 2009
Navy News

NORFOLK, Va. - The Los Angeles-class attack submarine USS Scranton (SSN 756) departed Naval Station Norfolk's Pier 3, Feb. 20, as part of the Eisenhower Strike Group, with the entire crew wearing the newly released Navy working uniform.

Sailors in the Tidewater area are the first in the fleet to wear the working uniform.

While only in port for 19 days following Scranton's last period at sea, the entire crew was able to purchase the uniforms and have them tailored to fit in time to deploy [I'm not sure what this means, considering you can't tailor anything on this uniform. They probably meant "got their tapes embroidered"] . Many of the Sailors took advantage of ordering name tags online, enabling them to complete their uniforms even quicker.

"Scranton's accomplishment is 100 percent leadership from the chief's quarters," said Chief of the Boat, Master Chief Machinist's Mate Steven Nordman. "We knew the uniform change was coming, but our decision was based on our deployment schedule and we had to be ready."

Following Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy (MCPON) Rick West's emphasis on the chief petty officer community's role in training the crew for the uniform change, Scranton's chiefs established a plan that began in November, 2008, with training the crew in proper wear and financial planning for the change.

"I like it better than the utilities. It's better in the cold weather and it has more pockets," said Fire Control Technician Seaman Kelly Fisher of Sherman, Texas. "It was a bit tough with the financial issues, but the chiefs trained us to prepare for the cost."

"I've never had a jacket this warm," said Sonar Technician 3rd Class David Weist of Breezewood, Pa. "It really helped while on watch in the cold."

While deployed, Scranton will be conducting missions related to the Maritime Strategy, and will execute tasking that supports U.S. European Command's Theater Security Cooperation Plan for increased multi-national Maritime Domain Awareness, as well as tasking related to vital U.S. national interests.

Attack submarines like Scranton are multi-mission capable – able to deploy and support special forces operations, disrupt and destroy an adversary's military and economic operations at sea, provide early strike from close proximity and ensure undersea superiority.

Scranton is 360 feet long, displaces 6,900 tons of water and can travel in excess of 20 knots.

[Snuggle Bunny]

Hello Gunmate, I replied but I'm not sure I did it correctly. The article describes everyone wearing it, including engineers. I'm sure this is more of a mentality change than anything. The uniform is perfectly fine to wear in engineering - it's no less safe than anything we already have in those spaces. If people are hard over on the "loose clothing" issue (don't see that as an issue here whatsoever) the CO can always direct engineers to tuck their NWU shirt in when they enter a space. Of course, then the belt is exposed and I don't see where anyone gained anything. Normal wear should be the norm - that's why it's called the norm.
http://www.military.com/news/article/navy-news/uss-scranton-deploys-in-newest-uniform.html

[GUNMATE1]

Hello Gunmate, I replied but I'm not sure I did it correctly. The article describes everyone wearing it, including engineers. I'm sure this is more of a mentality change than anything. The uniform is perfectly fine to wear in engineering - it's no less safe than anything we already have in those spaces. If people are hard over on the "loose clothing" issue (don't see that as an issue here whatsoever) the CO can always direct engineers to tuck their NWU shirt in when they enter a space. Of course, then the belt is exposed and I don't see where anyone gained anything. Normal wear should be the norm - that's why it's called the norm.
http://www.military.com/news/article/navy-news/uss-scranton-deploys-in-newest-uniform.html

Im not talking about loose clothing at all. I think you misinterperted what i was saying regarding the coveralls. When i first came in the navy the Coveralls were for dirty work. They were issued to me from my ship, no name tapes, no ranks. They were used when i was in the Gun mounts and missile mounts so i could keep my regular workign uniform from being completely trashed. So im not worried about loose clothing im talking about completely trashing out the uniform.

[jeffersj]

Like GUNMATE1, when I came in and most of my career coveralls were organizational clothing that was intended to be worn in lieu of dungarees, utilities, what have you for exceptionally dirty work. You would turn them in when they were unservicable or when you transferred from the command. If you opened the main engine you applied tape to the cuffs, pockets, etc., to prevent foreign objects contaminating the equipment.

Never did understand why the Navy felt the need to saddle the Sailors with an additional item to keep track of in their seabags instead of leaving well enough alone.

[Snuggle Bunny]

GUNMATE1, here's the para out of the NWU NAVADMIN (CNO Washington 021922ZDEC08) that you asked for about how to sew on the warfare pin:

J. ALL BREAST INSIGNIA WILL BE EMBROIDERED IN THE APPROPRIATE COLOR AND WORN AS FOLLOWS:
(1) COMMAND INSIGNIA (COMMAND AT-SEA, COMMAND ASHORE/PROJECT MANAGER) IS WORN ON THE NWU SHIRT ABOVE THE RIGHT POCKET CENTERED 1/4 INCH ABOVE THE NAME STRIP. THE COMMAND INSIGNIA CAN BE METAL OR EMBROIDERED ON A STRIP OF NWU FABRIC.
(2) WHEN AUTHORIZED, A MAXIMUM OF TWO WARFARE/QUALIFICATION INSIGNIA MAY BE WORN ON THE NWU. THE SIZE OF THE FABRIC STRIP ON WHICH THEY ARE EMBROIDERED WILL BE OF THE NWU PATTERN, RECTANGULAR/SQUARE, AND THE APPROXIMATE SIZE OF THE INSIGNIA. THE PRIMARY BREAST INSIGNIA WILL BE WORN CENTERED ABOVE AND FLUSH WITH THE "U.S. NAVY" IDENTIFICATION MARKING ON THE SHIRT. SECONDARY BREAST INSIGNIA WILL BE WORN CENTERED ON THE WEARER'S LEFT POCKET FLAP. ENLISTED PERSONNEL AUTHORIZED TO WEAR TWO WARFARE/QUALIFICATION INSIGNIA AND AN IDENTIFICATION BADGE (ON WORKING UNIFORMS AS NOTED IN PARA 7.K BELOW)
MAY WEAR THE PRIMARY AND SECONDARY WARFARE/QUALIFICATION INSIGNIA CENTERED AND FLUSH ABOVE THE "U.S. NAVY" FABRIC STRIP. THE NWU IS THE ONLY UNIFORM IN WHICH TWO WARFARE INSIGNIAS MAY BE WORN IN THIS MANNER. PRIMARY AND SECONDARY WARFARE INSIGNIA POSITIONS WILL BE AS PRESCRIBED IN ARTICLE 5201.2.C.(3).(C) OF REF A.

[Snuggle Bunny]

COMNAVREGMIDLANT released their updated uniform instruction, dated 23 February 2009, last Friday. It is COMNAVREGMIDLANTINST 1020.1B and it is titled "Uniform Policy and Regulations". It has incorporated nearly all the verbiage that was sent out in their NWU implementation message on 22JAN. You can likely find it via Google somehow.

[RandomFT2]

It is quite lame not to be able to wear it anywhere. The primary gripe really is that other branches of service can wear their cammy uniforms in public, so why can't we? Some people want to argue that we hold ourselves to a higher standard. Well I'll argue that with who the hell cares? It's a job, take pride in your work regardless of what other people think. I've heard our commodore mention that they may change the rules once everyone is wearing it correctly. Being a submariner we mostly wear coveralls, so coming to work and changing into those isn't really foriegn to us. It is easier to wear and in the end cheaper than utilities, so atleast we have that.

[euzkadiCA]

Once again the Navy had a great chance to do something worthwhile and then the hide-bound upper-echelon got ahold of it. Tradition is to a certain extent garbage. We used to have a tradition of flogging too...Why are my supposed "superiors" afraid of us being seen in public in uniform? The few times i have been out in uniform, it means the world to me having random people come up and thank you for your service. But these guys in DC, got to lord it over to us and ensure we "earn the priviledge". But on the plus side, its about time we got some decent foul weather gear. That peacoat is useless and the raincoat funnels all the water into your boots, so you end up soaked from the shins down. Brilliant. As a former submariner, i used to wear a gortex woodland jacket topside. Got yelled at and told to take it off as they scramble down the hatch, lol. Guess it was too cold or wet for them. I mean i just got a GED and went to public high school, but i know i could come up with better stuff than these fine gentlemen with decades of leadership. It's not whining as so many have pointed out. This is the working Navy speaking out in one of the few avenues allowed to us on the odd chance the DC crowd actually listens to its people, rather the norm of making a decision and "damn the torpedoes".

[ScottyJF03]

Why are my supposed "superiors" afraid of us being seen in public in uniform? The few times i have been out in uniform, it means the world to me having random people come up and thank you for your service

People misunderstand the reason for the rule. It's not that we are not to be seen, its that this is a WORKING uniform. Everyone should note that their is no restriction on going out in town in our dress uniforms or the new service uniform. It's funny, I have never heard my chief or officer complain about not able to go our in town in their wash khakis, because they understand what a working uniform is. Do people really want some smuck strutting around in their oh soo cool, finally a military uniform covered grease and smelling like jet fuel?

For that matter, besides picking up a child which is the only part of the rule I would change, why would you need to stop other than an emergency? I ran out of milk, plan ahead; I'm running low on gas, the dummy light normally goes another 50mi, I'm hungry, go clean up before eating, etc, etc, etc.

[ScottyJF03]

Does anyone know if the Coast Guard can wear their working uniform off base? I don't think so, and that would mean that the Navy, the Marines, and the Coast (more than half of the services) are not aloud to wear a WORKING uniform off base. Only the Army and the Air Force go off base in their cammies. Just what I want to do, lower my standards to that of the Army and Air Force.

[jeffersj]

Does anyone know if the Coast Guard can wear their working uniform off base? I don't think so, and that would mean that the Navy, the Marines, and the Coast (more than half of the services) are not aloud to wear a WORKING uniform off base. Only the Army and the Air Force go off base in their cammies. Just what I want to do, lower my standards to that of the Army and Air Force.

Not going to speak for the Air Force.

In talking with a friend whose sons are in the Army, the reason they wear the ACU in town is because we are engaged in hostilities. Apparently their rules allow this sort of thing.

Works for them. As for me, either allow the working uniform to be worn outside the gate as originally announced, or prohiibit the wearing of all working uniforms outside the gate without specific authorization from the CO.

[Wereldboom]

Not going to speak for the Air Force.

In talking with a friend whose sons are in the Army, the reason they wear the ACU in town is because we are engaged in hostilities. Apparently their rules allow this sort of thing.

Works for them. As for me, either allow the working uniform to be worn outside the gate as originally announced, or prohiibit the wearing of all working uniforms outside the gate without specific authorization from the CO.

No, that's not why - the Army has been wearing BDU's out in town long before the shit hit the fan.

By the way, I'm having trouble understanding Scotty's implication that being treated like an adult somehow equates to lower standards.

[jeffersj]

No, that's not why - the Army has been wearing BDU's out in town long before the shit hit the fan.

By the way, I'm having trouble understanding Scotty's implication that being treated like an adult somehow equates to lower standards.

Maybe in your location.

One time I did some research on the subject of who could wear BDU's where (pre-11 Sept. 2001). Looked at the rules for four of the seven uniformed services (only ones I didn't check were the Coast Guard, USPHS, and NOAA). I did that as I was either mistaken for a Marine (most often) or a Soldier (once in a while) when I wore my BDU's to commute and was required to exit my vehicle under the rules in place at the time, and thought it would be interesting to see who could do what.

At the time, the Air Force was the most liberal (about the only place you could not wear it was a resturant or a bar), followed by the Navy and Marine Corps.

Army was the most restrictive, not allowing theirs outside the gate, which was the old Navy policy with regard to working uniforms. I'm not talking local policies, but the official uniform regulations in place at the time.

No matter, like I said earlier either go with the original intent on the working uniform, or simply not allow it outside the gate period.

[Silver Fox]

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with wearing work uniforms in public. Maybe it wouldn't hurt for the public to see Sailors in work uniforms.



This, I feel this way for all branches of the service in their uniforms. We're people too. Gus the Automechanic can go to a bar and grab a beer in his coveralls with his name and company on them, but no one says 'Wow, look at that automechanic drinking beer!' We should be allowed to do the same.

[ScottyJF03]

No matter, like I said earlier either go with the original intent on the working uniform, or simply not allow it outside the gate period.

Quoting Navy Times: "Why can’t sailors wear the NWU off base?
The Navy Working Uniform is just that — a working uniform, just like the utilities and wash khakis it’s replacing. Navy officials say working uniforms aren’t appropriate for off-base wear."

"The Navy Blue Coverall Uniform is not authorized for wear other than detailed in this paragraph and under no circumstances may it be worn in either an official or unofficial capacity outside the confines of a military installation." - Bupers CD on uniform use

"Authorized Brief Stops. Working Khakis, Utilities, Winter Working Blue, Flight Suits, and Camouflaged Utility uniform may also be worn for brief and appropriate stops off-base during duty hours, or while commuting to and from place of duty, such as? : Dropping off/picking up children from daycare centers or school; obtaining gas or other essential driving aids (wiper blades, snow chains, fluids, lights, etc.); picking up/dropping off dry-cleaning; automatic teller machines; picking up vehicles at repair shops or gas stations; at drive-thru windows where exiting the vehicle is not required; at a convenience store or drug store solely for the purchase of emergency childcare or health products (milk, diapers, medicine, etc.); and business conducted in financial institutions" - NAVPERS 15665

So the original intent is that a working uniform can not be worn off base.

okay, the army is allowed to wear their ACU's off base (freakin msg didn't have a DTG)
As for those who take offense to the hit against army and USAF, all in good intent, but I stand by the ruling that this is a working uniform and should not be worn past the gate except for direct travel to/from home.

[euzkadiCA]

This, I feel this way for all branches of the service in their uniforms. We're people too. Gus the Automechanic can go to a bar and grab a beer in his coveralls with his name and company on them, but no one says 'Wow, look at that automechanic drinking beer!' We should be allowed to do the same.

Concur. As long as you are not discrediting your uniform or service. It would be good for the military to be seen in normal aspects. Lets face it only 30% of the public of age is actually qualified to join. Even less actually do, something like less than 1%. We are becoming more and more increasingly isolated from the public. Most people have a notion all we as a military do is run around in formation with rifles going "hup hup hup" and do pushups all day. All joking aside, the idea that all eyes are on you in uniform is true, but the onus is on us to comport ourselves in a manner reflelcting as such. The seperation between civvie and military does none of us as a society any good.

[jeffersj]

Quoting Navy Times: "Why can’t sailors wear the NWU off base?
The Navy Working Uniform is just that — a working uniform, just like the utilities and wash khakis it’s replacing. Navy officials say working uniforms aren’t appropriate for off-base wear."

"The Navy Blue Coverall Uniform is not authorized for wear other than detailed in this paragraph and under no circumstances may it be worn in either an official or unofficial capacity outside the confines of a military installation." - Bupers CD on uniform use

"Authorized Brief Stops. Working Khakis, Utilities, Winter Working Blue, Flight Suits, and Camouflaged Utility uniform may also be worn for brief and appropriate stops off-base during duty hours, or while commuting to and from place of duty, such as? : Dropping off/picking up children from daycare centers or school; obtaining gas or other essential driving aids (wiper blades, snow chains, fluids, lights, etc.); picking up/dropping off dry-cleaning; automatic teller machines; picking up vehicles at repair shops or gas stations; at drive-thru windows where exiting the vehicle is not required; at a convenience store or drug store solely for the purchase of emergency childcare or health products (milk, diapers, medicine, etc.); and business conducted in financial institutions" - NAVPERS 15665

So the original intent is that a working uniform can not be worn off base.

okay, the army is allowed to wear their ACU's off base (freakin msg didn't have a DTG)
As for those who take offense to the hit against army and USAF, all in good intent, but I stand by the ruling that this is a working uniform and should not be worn past the gate except for direct travel to/from home.

Not that it really impacts me as I'm retired, but I see no issue with not allowing working uniforms outside the gate period unless in a government vehicle performing government business. But then, I grew up during a period when you did not wear dungarees to commute to/from work, and there were Marine guards at the gate with all the authority they needed to stop you, and if they saw you trying the old trrick of keeping the trousers on and changing the t-shirt turning you around to return to your command.

[Silver Fox]

Concur. As long as you are not discrediting your uniform or service. It would be good for the military to be seen in normal aspects. Lets face it only 30% of the public of age is actually qualified to join. Even less actually do, something like less than 1%. We are becoming more and more increasingly isolated from the public. Most people have a notion all we as a military do is run around in formation with rifles going "hup hup hup" and do pushups all day. All joking aside, the idea that all eyes are on you in uniform is true, but the onus is on us to comport ourselves in a manner reflelcting as such. The seperation between civvie and military does none of us as a society any good.

I make stops in my cammies frequently, and it opens people eyes. They see you out and about and are like "Wow, so you guys actually have time for a life?" A lot of high school and college age kids start asking me about the military, and I refer them to a recruiter. Just being there a lot of times draws recruits. I ran into the mall to pick up something that I'd ordered from a store on my way home from work and had three people ask me about what I did and if they'd be able to do the same. I'm not even a recruiter, I answered some basic questions in a neutral manner, neither spinning the military up or playing it down, only stating facts, and gave them directions to the local recruiters office, wished them well and went on my way.

What's that philosophy of the Marines? Every Marine is a recruiter?

I rarely go out in my blues but when I do I'm almost always addressed by someone. I find it highly embarassing which is why I never do it. People say, "Thank you so much for serving our nation! You're a true patriot!" I usually respond in a joking nature with "I'm just trying to pay for college" or "Thanks for paying taxes" because I don't feel comfortable saying "You're welcome."

[jeffersj]

I make stops in my cammies frequently, and it opens people eyes. They see you out and about and are like "Wow, so you guys actually have time for a life?" A lot of high school and college age kids start asking me about the military, and I refer them to a recruiter. Just being there a lot of times draws recruits. I ran into the mall to pick up something that I'd ordered from a store on my way home from work and had three people ask me about what I did and if they'd be able to do the same. I'm not even a recruiter, I answered some basic questions in a neutral manner, neither spinning the military up or playing it down, only stating facts, and gave them directions to the local recruiters office, wished them well and went on my way.

What's that philosophy of the Marines? Every Marine is a recruiter?

I rarely go out in my blues but when I do I'm almost always addressed by someone. I find it highly embarassing which is why I never do it. People say, "Thank you so much for serving our nation! You're a true patriot!" I usually respond in a joking nature with "I'm just trying to pay for college" or "Thanks for paying taxes" because I don't feel comfortable saying "You're welcome."

From what I've heard the philosophy of the Marines is that every Marine is a rifleman - that means anyone can end up in an infantry unit pulling a trigger.

Why don't you feel comfortable saying "you're welcome"? Folks saying thank you and maybe buying you a coffee at the 7-11 (happened to me, and not because I wanted it) beats the old days where military personnel were encouraged not to wear any uniforms on liberty as it made them a target for every protestor, scam artist, lady of the evening, etc.

[garhkal]

Why are my supposed "superiors" afraid of us being seen in public in uniform? The few times i have been out in uniform, it means the world to me having random people come up and thank you for your service. ".

Especially when every other branch is also out in the same uniforms (like our cammies for the seabees which loosk like the army and airforce cammies)... And when i DO go out in town and shop (mostly doing soda/coffee mess runs for our command) i also get good comments. The only 2 negatives i have had were from fellow seabees when i forgot my cover (sitting on the passenger seat) on 2 of those runs.


People misunderstand the reason for the rule. It's not that we are not to be seen, its that this is a WORKING uniform.

So it is also a working uniform for the army and airforce (well in relation to our cammies) and they are allowed to wear it out in town. So why not us?

[Silver Fox]

From what I've heard the philosophy of the Marines is that every Marine is a rifleman - that means anyone can end up in an infantry unit pulling a trigger.


I'm aware of that, but there's also something about Marines being potential recruiters.... encouraging the legacy of the Marines to carry on in families and friends and such....

[jeffersj]

I'm aware of that, but there's also something about Marines being potential recruiters.... encouraging the legacy of the Marines to carry on in families and friends and such....

They also believe that once a Marine, always a Marine - no such thing as former Marine, ex-Marine, etc.

They do have a very strong sense of history and tradition - probably the strongest of all the US armed services.

[forcedj]

They also believe that once a Marine, always a Marine - no such thing as former Marine, ex-Marine, etc.

They do have a very strong sense of history and tradition - probably the strongest of all the US armed services.


I wonder how they classify honorably discharged PVT Lee Harvey Oswald?

Dan

[jeffersj]

I wonder how they classify honorably discharged PVT Lee Harvey Oswald?

Dan

Don't know. If memory serves me correctly his discharge was downgraded after he decided to move to the Workers Paradise.

For all I know, they may still admit he's a Marine, just one that went bad, same as the one that was engaged in a very brutal and disgusting criminal situation where he (with an associate) kidnapped women to use in a very basic and brutal manner.

[DoABarrelRoll]

I think the vast majority of the "suck it up and be thankful" people (term used loosely) seem to forget what we were told when they were wear testing/creating this new uniform.

[hopesick]

just another stupid rule with zero basis what so ever. the old school way of thought is over. this isnt just over what we can and cant wear in public. the navy is trying to cling to the thought that its upholding long standing traditions blah, blah, blah. what about the old navy mindset of, the chief shows up first and the chief leaves last. that ideal is dead and gone for sure. besides, i'm tired of seeing my little brother in his digis and my in my uncomfortable cracker jacks or working whites/blues

[MexDoc]

Those people trying to stick to tradition should really come to Hawaii to see the Arizona memorial D DAY video...what they'll see is a 2nd Class Petty Officer with the biggest beard I have ever seen..and a tobacco pipe..So if they want to hold on to traditions bring the Beards back!!! Thats very sailorish if you ask me GAAARRRR!!!! MATEY!!!

[euzkadiCA]

just another stupid rule with zero basis what so ever. the old school way of thought is over. this isnt just over what we can and cant wear in public. the navy is trying to cling to the thought that its upholding long standing traditions blah, blah, blah. what about the old navy mindset of, the chief shows up first and the chief leaves last. that ideal is dead and gone for sure. besides, i'm tired of seeing my little brother in his digis and my in my uncomfortable cracker jacks or working whites/blues

Haha, I'm right there with you. The history and tradition are some of the biggest detractors from us growing up as a service and learning to find our own path. I understand and revear those things but imitation of the "old days" is a poor mentality. Like to see any of our current admirals or chiefs live like they did in the "wooden ships and iron men" days. We are a modern seagoing service. What we do has nothing more than a slim resemblence to what our predecessors did. We need our own identity based off a little bit of common sense from our leaders who are supposed to be looking after our best interests (i know im asking alot). My Chiefs i had when i came in would be horrified to think of us on the ground in Afghanistan and Iraq. But we rise to the challenges presented and adapt to changing times, right? Time for our leaders to do the same or go away and make room for someone who will...

[NSANE]

I'm a Soldier, Combat Veteran, been in since the 90's and I have to say that this is the dumbest policy that I've ever seen. You have to change out of your duty uniform before you can go to lunch, get out of your car to pump gas, etc? What if an emergency pops up out of the blue and you have to unass the AO quickly and you're wearing the NWU, such as illness of a child or spouse? Do you have to change first before you tend to the emergency? What if you are injured, God forbid, and you need to be MEDEVAC'd and you're wearing the NWU? Do the medics have to change you first before they can take you? For the Sailors who think it's time for a change you need to call up to the Dept of the Navy and tell them how stupid this really is. For those of you who can't see the stupidity because you are blinded by the "that's just the way it is" concept, then you might need to get the hell out of the military because I wouldn't want you near me on the battlefield. Remember folks, there's a manual for everything until combat happens (combat meaning things just poppin off), then the manual goes out the window and you must fend for yourself and your battle buddies.

[Yggdrasil]

For the Sailors who think it's time for a change you need to call up to the Dept of the Navy and tell them how stupid this really is. For those of you who can't see the stupidity because you are blinded by the "that's just the way it is" concept, then you might need to get the hell out of the military because I wouldn't want you near me on the battlefield.

Let me tell you something - you've been in the miitary AT LEAST ten years, if you've been in since the 90's. This means that you should be fully aware of the concept of choosing your battles. Sometimes, no matter how right you are, you WILL lose the battle. You know this. This is one of those situations. We should be able to wear the NWU off base, pending approval from the CNO from the Chief's Mess in the fleet.

[DoABarrelRoll]

Let me tell you something - you've been in the miitary AT LEAST ten years, if you've been in since the 90's. This means that you should be fully aware of the concept of choosing your battles. Sometimes, no matter how right you are, you WILL lose the battle. You know this. This is one of those situations. We should be able to wear the NWU off base, pending approval from the CNO from the Chief's Mess in the fleet.

We lose because we are not united... like the Mess of Chiefs are.

[jeffersj]

We lose because we are not united... like the Mess of Chiefs are.

And the responsibility for that is strictly on you.

And no, as a whole we are not a mess as you imply by your snide comment. However, only a fool would deny there are some bad Sailors in there that make everyone look bad.

[ET1(SS) Keith]

you know what though, it could always be worse. we could have gotten those modified utilities. the ones with the piss cutters? bleh. but cammies... i still don't get it. i saw them the other day. could just be my eyes, but i couldn't see their rank insignia until i was about 5 feet away. at least with the cammies that other services get, the rank insignia stands out from the uniform. and as far as wearing them off base? we can spin ourselves around in circles as much as we want, but it looks like the navy is never going to trust us to be big boys and girls and not embarass them in public. and the chief's mess having the final say on it? i'm calling b.s. on that one. i remember on my boat, the officers did all the head stomping. all the chiefs that fought to get their power back were either beaten into submission, or forced to retire.

[jeffersj]

you know what though, it could always be worse. we could have gotten those modified utilities. the ones with the piss cutters? bleh. but cammies... i still don't get it. i saw them the other day. could just be my eyes, but i couldn't see their rank insignia until i was about 5 feet away. at least with the cammies that other services get, the rank insignia stands out from the uniform. and as far as wearing them off base? we can spin ourselves around in circles as much as we want, but it looks like the navy is never going to trust us to be big boys and girls and not embarass them in public. and the chief's mess having the final say on it? i'm calling b.s. on that one. i remember on my boat, the officers did all the head stomping. all the chiefs that fought to get their power back were either beaten into submission, or forced to retire.

Only ones I saw with the garrison caps was the one the ladies wore a long time ago.

Yes, there has been a serious problem with the Chiefs losing their authority to make things run. Multitude of reasons for that. Some of the crap that has come out over the past few years (a group cheating on a nuke test, another stealing thousands from the Mess, others caught in fraternization incidents) hasn't helped. Then you get the issue where some go all out to get into the Mess, and then forgetting that they have to prove every day the folks that said they could do the job expected of a Chief were correct. The trend probably started around 20 years ago - only been the past few there has been a move to get back to the basics.

[Yggdrasil]

i remember on my boat, the officers did all the head stomping. all the chiefs that fought to get their power back were either beaten into submission, or forced to retire.

That didn't stop at the Chief level; it pretty much went all the way down through the Petty Officer ranks. Mostly, because over the last, I say, five years, Sailors appear to be going to their boss's boss to undermine their boss. I've seen far too many Chiefs and First Classes reverse disciplinary actions that their junior Petty Officers gave to their Sailors, and it's a problem.

In some ways, I do think that the way Chiefs lead needed a little bit of tweaking - well, not so much tweaking, but more like the elimination of certain stereotypes. I remember back in Norfolk, there some Sailors who, as soon as they put on khaki, they feel the need to play the role of the stereotypical "Old Crusty Chief." Things like making decisions that (purposely) inconvenience everyone, and then acting like it's a result of their being "senile" when they're really not.

I remember, for example, we had hit a port when we were out for three weeks doing an exercise, and we collapsed to three section duty - which, of course, is the norm when you make a port visit. There were some extra watches to be stood, and some people ended up with two watches - which, of course, is the norm. Well, I believe it was the CO or XO who decided that we didn't need one of those watches. So what did our duty section leader (an SKC) do? He just crossed out the column for that watch and went on his way. And more than half of the people who had that watch only had that as their one watch - which means that now, people were standing two watches, while some people didn't have any. All because he didn't rearrange names after cancelling that watch on the watch bill. He knew fully well the result of merely crossing out that watch without rearranging the whole watch bill. He just wanted to be the "Old Crusty Chief." I think that the sooner we get rid of that stereotype, the better off we'll be.

[MineSweepBosn]

i really dont understand all the blasting on the wear restrictions. The restricitions are there to ensure that the Navy as a whole can correctly wear the uniform before restrictions are lifted or altered. Any of us that have been in for awhile or even havent cannot honestly say that they dont notice the large percentage of sailors who cant even seem to properly wear the uniforms we have now. Instead of blasting the current restrictions we all need to focus on making sure our shipmates regardless of rank are adhereing to guidline for the new uniforms so that eventually we may be able to wear the NWU's offbase. i for one would love to be able to wear them with out the restrictions. But that is not going to happen until we can show that we all can wear them properly.

[GUNMATE1]

i really dont understand all the blasting on the wear restrictions. The restricitions are there to ensure that the Navy as a whole can correctly wear the uniform before restrictions are lifted or altered. Any of us that have been in for awhile or even havent cannot honestly say that they dont notice the large percentage of sailors who cant even seem to properly wear the uniforms we have now. Instead of blasting the current restrictions we all need to focus on making sure our shipmates regardless of rank are adhereing to guidline for the new uniforms so that eventually we may be able to wear the NWU's offbase. i for one would love to be able to wear them with out the restrictions. But that is not going to happen until we can show that we all can wear them properly.

The real problem isnt the Chiefs Mess. I am an LPO at my command. What the real problem is those who have an aversion to the changing of the uniforms. At my command my LCPO empowered me to make sure all my guys were wearing the SU correctly. I did and had the first division in the building 100% in the new SU. It has taken off, now more and more divisions are following my example. I tried to do the same thing with the NWU. Well i got slapped down in a heart beat for that. Why? No idea. Oh yeah its because the higher ups don't want to purchase the new uniform. And oh yeah in NDW the powers that be have made the decision not to allow us to wear it even though all other branches wear it in the Washington DC Area. What they shoudl truly do is allow good First classes to train the people on the wear and maintenece of the uniform and where they can and can't go in it. Lift at least one of the restrictions regarding Day care. The others can stay until a further date. But allow us the opportunity to train our people then come up with a wear policy. Maybe they should let us out in public so that we can show it off with pride. But just remember with that, you have those who can barely tie thier shoes let alone maintain a uniform.

[Yggdrasil]

The real problem isnt the Chiefs Mess.

Well, getting back to why the Chief's Mess was brought up in the first place, I just don't get why it's up to Chiefs to decide when and if a uniform that even OFFICERS are going to wear will be allowed to be worn off base. That, right there, boggles the mind.

[GUNMATE1]

Well, getting back to why the Chief's Mess was brought up in the first place, I just don't get why it's up to Chiefs to decide when and if a uniform that even OFFICERS are going to wear will be allowed to be worn off base. That, right there, boggles the mind.

I totally agree with you, but why wait for a decision to be made by the Chiefs or Officers? Why doesn't the Navy just turn and say, " This is the new uniform, WEAR IT." Why is this such a hard concept for those who are against the new uniform to purchase it? Last time i checked we are supposed to follow the orders of those appointed over us. SO when the CNO and the MCPON put out that this is the new uniform, why are so many people trying to keep people out of it till it becomes mandatory? In my opinion there are to many E-7 through O-7's with there hands in the cookie jar. If you want to restrict the uniform so much so that people can't wear it why did we come up with a new concept? Regardless of how you look at it the Navy came up with a new uniform, put it on the street, increased our clothing allowance, but won't let us get it or put so many restrictions on it that people can't even stop to drop off thier children. This is really crazy!!!! Of all the other branches why is the Navy the most restrictive? The Marines if memory serves can stop for emergencies and daycares. The Navy what its coming down to is you can't even leave your house to go to your vehicle with it on. Might as well just change in your car. I just read an interesting article in Navy Times regarding the distrobution at Boot. The recruits are wearing them, but the RDC's aren't. Why is this? They are marching around with thier recruits all day long, wearing the SU. Why is this? If the recruits wear Utilities or the NWU while going through boot camp, why don't the RDC's? They are doing the same things? Just boggles my mind out alot of commands are handling the new uniform, The CNO and MCPON just need to make the NWU the uniform of the day FLEET WIDE and be done with it. No ifs ands or buts. Make the SU used for official functions that don't require dress uniform, and make the NWU the uniform fleet wide, even in Naval District Washington. Lets show some Navy pride!!!!

[jeffersj]

I totally agree with you, but why wait for a decision to be made by the Chiefs or Officers? Why doesn't the Navy just turn and say, " This is the new uniform, WEAR IT." Why is this such a hard concept for those who are against the new uniform to purchase it? Last time i checked we are supposed to follow the orders of those appointed over us. SO when the CNO and the MCPON put out that this is the new uniform, why are so many people trying to keep people out of it till it becomes mandatory? In my opinion there are to many E-7 through O-7's with there hands in the cookie jar. If you want to restrict the uniform so much so that people can't wear it why did we come up with a new concept? Regardless of how you look at it the Navy came up with a new uniform, put it on the street, increased our clothing allowance, but won't let us get it or put so many restrictions on it that people can't even stop to drop off thier children. This is really crazy!!!! Of all the other branches why is the Navy the most restrictive? The Marines if memory serves can stop for emergencies and daycares. The Navy what its coming down to is you can't even leave your house to go to your vehicle with it on. Might as well just change in your car. I just read an interesting article in Navy Times regarding the distrobution at Boot. The recruits are wearing them, but the RDC's aren't. Why is this? They are marching around with thier recruits all day long, wearing the SU. Why is this? If the recruits wear Utilities or the NWU while going through boot camp, why don't the RDC's? They are doing the same things? Just boggles my mind out alot of commands are handling the new uniform, The CNO and MCPON just need to make the NWU the uniform of the day FLEET WIDE and be done with it. No ifs ands or buts. Make the SU used for official functions that don't require dress uniform, and make the NWU the uniform fleet wide, even in Naval District Washington. Lets show some Navy pride!!!!

Off we go again.

The design of the NWU is completely different from what the standard working uniform design was. That implied that the majority of Sailors probably didn't know how to wear it properly, and there would be an associated learning curve. As I said before, I recall one case where a Sailor on a Gator was chosed to wear the uniform during the test phase, and the embarked Marines had to help him learn to dress himself in the new uniform. Someone had to be tasked with being satisfied that the uniform was being worn properly before going to the rules that allow brief stops with the current working uniforms, and the Chiefs drew the job. Now, I would also expect that a First Class that was worth the crow on their sleeve would also be involved here, as they should also be enforcing standards.

Boot Camp - allowing for the fact it was 31 years ago, and I later went to that NTC on a regular basis in additiion to being stationed at the other two that were in existance at the time and saw many companies being pushed, I don't recall ever seeing a Recruit Company Commander in anything other than a service uniform, be it blues, whites, or khakis.

[Yggdrasil]

Concerning boot camp, jeffers is right about RDC's wearing service uniforms, and recruits wearing working uniforms. This is stupid - the Navy is the only service that does this. However, the problem isn't with boot camp alone though. Compared to the other services, the Navy seriously overuses service uniforms.

[ringjamesa]

Saw them for the first time last week. Had to do a double take. They are definately different....

[jeffersj]

Concerning boot camp, jeffers is right about RDC's wearing service uniforms, and recruits wearing working uniforms. This is stupid - the Navy is the only service that does this. However, the problem isn't with boot camp alone though. Compared to the other services, the Navy seriously overuses service uniforms.

Not sure why the Navy does this myself. But then, until very recently, the style of working uniform the Army, Marines, and Air force wears was the exception, not the rule, for the Navy. I myself can see a change to where the Recruit Company Commanders also wear working uniforms and adopting the cover that other services permit their drill instructors to wear for ours to wear while they are assigned to a company.

[Yggdrasil]

I myself can see a change to where the Recruit Company Commanders also wear working uniforms and adopting the cover that other services permit their drill instructors to wear for ours to wear while they are assigned to a company.

I actually plan of sporting this look myself when I get back to the fleet, so long as the ship I'm going to has "Any Hat Day" underway. My last ship had it if you were underway on a Friday, it was "Any Hat Day".

I plan on purchasing a black campaign cover, and placing the corresponding combination cover insignia on it, as other services do. For E6 and below males, that would be what E6 and below females wear on their covers.

Maybe people will take notice, and someone who matters might see it. I have no desire to push boots myself, but I do think that the hat intimidates people, not a red rope. I mean, hell, I'm told that state troopers wear them for the same reason.

[MineSweepBosn]

Well, getting back to why the Chief's Mess was brought up in the first place, I just don't get why it's up to Chiefs to decide when and if a uniform that even OFFICERS are going to wear will be allowed to be worn off base. That, right there, boggles the mind.

Enlisted ranks make up the majority of the Navy, and the CPO mess being the senior of the enlisted ranks logically are the ones who should be making the decision. It's up to us as LPO's and supervisors to train and ensure that our junior sailors and our peers are wearing the new uniforms properly. So that the CPO messes can have the ammunition to fight the fight when it comes time to review and possibly lift some or all of the restrictions. Rank and structure is not a new concept.

[MineSweepBosn]

On another note regarding the NWU's. I have seen and heard alot of push back from junior personel and confusion from all about what type of boots are authorized for wear with the uniform. From my understanding the new 9" all leather and rough outs are the only footwear authorized. There are alot of sailors junior and senior that believe that any 9" all leather boot can be worn regardless of manufacturer or style (i.e the bates and flight deck boots, and other assorted styles that people have purchased out in town). Is the NAVADMIN just not clear enough or am i and others who understand it the same way, misunderstanding it?

[GUNMATE1]

Off we go again.

The design of the NWU is completely different from what the standard working uniform design was. That implied that the majority of Sailors probably didn't know how to wear it properly, and there would be an associated learning curve. As I said before, I recall one case where a Sailor on a Gator was chosed to wear the uniform during the test phase, and the embarked Marines had to help him learn to dress himself in the new uniform. Someone had to be tasked with being satisfied that the uniform was being worn properly before going to the rules that allow brief stops with the current working uniforms, and the Chiefs drew the job. Now, I would also expect that a First Class that was worth the crow on their sleeve would also be involved here, as they should also be enforcing standards.

I would tend to agree with you that it is a different kind of uniform than what it was but like i keep saying let the First Classes train our junior folks. If we all can train our people and just make it the uniform of the day like most of the other branches then we will show unity amongst the services.
The Navy isn't some special element throughout the branches. We are 1 of 4 branches of the military, why does the navy feel it has to do its own thing? There isn't to much to say about tradition, most of our traditions are going away. But we still have the dress blues. Which signifies who we are and what we are. Who cares if the service uniform is khaki and black and the working uniform is blue camoflauge? Why do you even care? Last time i checked i put it on the same way i put everything else on. I dont wake up in the morning and say "Oh this isnt gonna work or this clashes with my boots" No i just put it on and go to work. Sailors should be more concerned with their job rather than what they are wearing. Would you do your job any less if you were wearing coveralls or NWU's? Probably not. Would you not be able to do office work if you wore the NWU vice the NSU? Probably not. We are actually starting to look like a fighting force. Dungarees are something that we wore for many years but be thankful we arent in SDB's on the ships and that is the uniform of the day like it was back in the 1800's. We should be focused more on training our sailors and doing the jobs correctly than what uniform we are actually doing the work in but we should be comfortable doing it.
Speaking of uniforms of old here is a list of alot of the old uniforms i just dug up from naval history. Notice we dont wear them much anymore and look at how many changes have happened since the Navy started in 1775.
NAVY COLORS-- 27 August 1802 the Secretary of the Navy signed an instruction which set a pattern for the dress of the U.S. Navy in Blue and Gold.

UNIFORM REGULATIONS-- The first uniform instruction for the U.S. Navy was issued by the Secretary of War on 24 August 1791. It provided a distinctive dress for the officers who would command the ships of the Federal Navy. The instruction did not include a uniform for the enlisted man, although there was a degree of uniformity. The usual dress of a seaman was made up of a short jacket, shirt, vest, long trousers, and a black low crowned hat.

FOULED ANCHOR--The foul anchor as a naval insignia got its start as the seal of the Lord Howard of Effingham. He was the Lord Admiral of England at the time of the defeat of the Spanish Armada in 1588. During this period the personal seal of a great officer of state was adopted as the seal of his office. The fouled anchor still remains the official seal of the Lord High Admiral of Great Britain. When this office became part of the present Board of Admiralty, the seal was retained--on buttons, official seals, and cap badges. The Navy's adoption of this symbol and many other customs can be directly attributed to the influence of British Naval tradition. The fouled anchor is among them.

KHAKI--originated in 1845 in India where British soldiers soaked white uniforms in mud, coffee, and curry powder to blend in with the landscape. Khakis made their debut in the U.S. Navy in 1912 when they were worn by naval aviators, and were adopted for submarines in 1931. In 1941 the Navy approved khakis for on- station wear by senior officers, and soon after Pearl Harbor chiefs and officers were authorized to wear khakis ashore on liberty. [B]
BROWN SHOES- In 1913 high laced shoes of tan leather first appeared in Uniform Regulations and were authorized for wear by aviators with khaki's. The color changed to russet brown in 1922. Uniforms exclusive to the aviation community were abolished in the 1920's and reinstated in the 1930's. The authorized color of aviators shoes has alternated between brown and black since then.

PEACOAT--a cold weather version of the first uniform authorized-- the Pea-Jacket. A warm, heavy coat made from "Pee" cloth or "Pilot" cloth, a course stout kind of twilled blue cloth with a nap on one side.

BELL BOTTOM TROUSERS--commonly believed that the trouser were introduced in 1817 to permit men to roll them above the knee when washing down the decks, and to make it easier to remove them in a hurry when forced to abandon ship or when washed overboard. The trousers may be used as a life preserver by knotting the legs.

[B] THIRTEEN BUTTONS ON TROUSERS--there is no relationship between the 13 buttons on the trousers and the 13 original colonies. Before 1894, the trousers had only seven buttons and in the early 1800's they had 15 buttons. It wasn't until the broadfall front was enlarged that the 13 buttons were added to the uniform and only then to add symmetry of design. [B]

WHITE HAT--In 1852 a white cover was added to the soft visorless blue hat. In 1866 a white sennet straw hat was authorized as an additional item. During the 1880's the white "sailors hat" appeared as a low rolled brim high-domed item made of wedge shaped pieces of canvas to replace the straw hat. The canvas was eventually replaced by cotton as a cheaper more comfortable material. Many complaints on the quality and construction led to modifications ending in the currently used white hat.

OFFICERS STARS--were first approved on line officers uniforms on 28 January 1864. All regulations since 1873 have specified that one ray would point downward toward the gold stripe on the sleeve. The reason for this is unknown.

CPO STARS--were introduced with the creation of SCPO and MCPO. The reasoning for stars pointed one ray down is unknown, however, indications point to following the line officers standard.

[B] JUMPER FLAPS--the collar originated as a protective cover for the jacket to protect it from the grease or powder normally worn by seamen to hold hair in place.

STRIPES AND STARS ON JUMPER UNIFORMS--on 18 January 1876, Rear Admiral Stephen B. Luce recommended a collar with stars and stripes as a substitute for the plain collar used on the frocks of seamen. Three stripes on the collar was proposed for all grades, with the stripes on the cuffs to indicated grade. One stripe for E-1, etc.
DISTINGUISHING MARKS/RATING BADGES--In 1841, insignia called "distinguishing marks" were first prescribed as part of the official uniform. An eagle and anchor emblem, forerunner of the rating badge, was the first distinguishing mark. In 1886 rating badges were established, and some 15 specialty marks were also provided to cover the various ratings. On 1 April 1893, petty officers were reclassified and the rating of chief petty officer was established. Until 1949 rating badges were worn on the right or left sleeve, depending on whether the person concerned was on the starboard or port watch. Since February 1948, all distinguishing marks have been worn on the left sleeve between the shoulder and elbow.

RIGHT ARM RATES--established in 1841 and disestablished 2 April 1949, originally signified men of the Seaman branch. During WWII these rates included Boatswains Mate, Turret Captain, Signalman, Gunners Mate, Fire Controlman, Quartermaster, Mineman, and Torpedomans Mate. Other ratings wore rates on the left sleeve.

FLAT HATS--First authorized in 1852 the flat hat was eliminated on 1 April 1963 due to non-available materials. The original hats had unit names on the front, however, unit names were taken off in January 1941.

MEN'S NECKERCHIEF--the black neckerchief or bandanna first appeared as early as the 16th century and was utilized as a sweat band and collar closure. Black was the predominant color as it was practical and did not readily show dirt. There is no truth to the myth that the black neckerchief was designed as a sign of mourning for Admiral Nelsons death.

NECKERCHIEF SQUARE KNOT--there is no historical significance to the knot other that it being a knot widely used by sailors which presents a uniform appearance.

DUNGAREES--in 1901 regulations authorized the first use of denim jumpers and trousers, and the 1913 regulations originally permitted the dungaree outfit to be used by both officers and enlisted with the hat of the day.

ENLISTED WOMEN--the first enlisted women's uniform was comprised of a single breasted coat, blue in winter and white in summer, long gull bottomed skirts and a straight-brimmed sailor hat, blue felt in winter and white straw in summer, black shoes and stockings.

COMMAND AT SEA PIN--established in 1960 to recognize the responsibilities placed on those officers of the Navy who are in command, or who have successfully commanded, ships and aircraft squadrons of the fleet. The component parts, a commission pennant, an anchor, and the line star, were determined to be ideally suited for a design which would be symbolic in the ready identification of those officers who have attained the highly coveted and responsible title of Commanding Officer of our commissioned units at sea.

AVIATION GREEN UNIFORM--in SEP 1917 the "Forrestry" Green uniform of the U.S. Marine Corps was authorized for aviation officers as a winter working uniform. The earliest use of the uniform by enlisted men came in 1941 when chief petty officers designated as Naval Aviation Pilots were authorized to wear the uniform. In NOV 1985 Aviation Working Greens were authorized for wear by women in the aviation community.

CLOTHES STOPS--a small diameter cord, approximately 12 inches, used to tie laundry to a clothes line. The early Navy clothes pin. Issued in recruit training until 1973.

NAVY GRAY UNIFORMS--gray uniforms in the same style as khaki were first introduced on 16 April 1943 as an officers uniform. On 3 June 1943 the uniform was extended to include Chief Petty Officers. On 31 March 1944 cooks and stewards were permitted to wear the gray uniform. The Navy abolished use of "grays" on 15 October 1949.

COCKED HAT--a hat worn by officers with ceremonial uniforms commonly refereed to as a "fore and aft" hat. During the 1700's the hat was worn parallel to the shoulders, but in the 1800's was modified to be worn with the points to the front and back. Wearing of the Cocked Hat was discontinued on 12 October 1940.

HAVELOCK--a protective cover worn by women over the combination cap to provide cold weather protection. Sometimes refereed to as the "Lawrence of Arabia hat" because it fell to shoulder length in the manner of a hood. A rain hood was also issued to provide rain protection. Discontinued in 1981.

CUTLASS-- a short saber with a cut and thrust blade and a large hand guard. Issued to enlisted men as a sidearm and maintained in ships armories until the beginning of WWII. The weapons was officially declared obsolete in 1949. The Cutlass was considered an organizational issue item, but was never considered to be a part of the enlisted uniform.

EAGLE ON CROWS/DEVICES-- for many years the U.S. specified modified forms of the Napoleonic Eagle in the devices and insignia used to distinguish the various ranks and ratings of enlisted men and officers. This eagle was usually cast, stamped or embroidered facing left and the same practice was used by the Navy. Why the Napoleonic eagle faced left is unknown. In 1941 the Navy changed the eagles facing direction to follow the Heraldic rules which faces the right toward the wearers sword arm. This rule continues to apply and the eagle now faces to the front or the wearers right.

[jeffersj]

Gunmate1, I agree with you on the training issue. You and the others in the First Class Mess should (like I did as a First Class) should be the ones training your subordinates, enforcing standards, etc. The Chiefs cannot do it alone.

[Yggdrasil]

Enlisted ranks make up the majority of the Navy, and the CPO mess being the senior of the enlisted ranks logically are the ones who should be making the decision. It's up to us as LPO's and supervisors to train and ensure that our junior sailors and our peers are wearing the new uniforms properly. So that the CPO messes can have the ammunition to fight the fight when it comes time to review and possibly lift some or all of the restrictions. Rank and structure is not a new concept.

You're not understanding me - what I'm saying is that the Navy is putting the ability to wear NWU's off base for many people into the hands those that they outrank.

As well... also, remember that Chiefs will also benefit from being able to wear the uniforms off base. In a perfect world, the Chief's Mess will do the right thing regardless of whether or not they benefit from it... but we don't live in a perfect world now, do we?

Besides, this "wait and see" thing is being set up for failure anyway. If the purpose of these uniforms was to take on paint and oil, so that Sailors wouldn't have to buy new uniforms - and people see paint and oil on the uniforms, what do you think they're going to say?

[MineSweepBosn]

You're not understanding me - what I'm saying is that the Navy is putting the ability to wear NWU's off base for many people into the hands those that they outrank.

As well... also, remember that Chiefs will also benefit from being able to wear the uniforms off base. In a perfect world, the Chief's Mess will do the right thing regardless of whether or not they benefit from it... but we don't live in a perfect world now, do we?

Besides, this "wait and see" thing is being set up for failure anyway. If the purpose of these uniforms was to take on paint and oil, so that Sailors wouldn't have to buy new uniforms - and people see paint and oil on the uniforms, what do you think they're going to say?

The CPO messes are tasked with providing feedback from the fleet regarding the proper wear by the enlisted ranks, not the officers. The feedback from the officer ranks will be provided by the CO's and other senior officers in charge. As far as the purpose of the uniform design "The concept uniforms are not intended to be ‘camouflage’ uniforms as is the case with similarly
patterned uniforms of the other services. We have no need for camouflage. However, by
learning from our past working uniforms as well as the uniforms from other services, the Navy
realized that a solid cover uniform shows heavy wear areas much more predominantly than a
multicolored pattern. The solid color uniforms also show wrinkles in the fabric more predominantly and often a small stain or spot of paint renders a solid colored uniform not wearable. A multicolored uniform alleviates those problems as well. " Small stain or spot being the key words. It will still be unacceptable for sailors to wear the uniform if it is covvered in paint or other stains like so many sailors coveralls right now. As adults and people with common sense we all know if we are wearing an unacceptable uniform. and take the corrective actions and purchase replacements. the NWU's were not designed to prevent sailors from having to buy new uniforms. They were designed to decrease the frequency of sailors having to replace uniforms.

[mrsmatysuk]

I can't go on how I have generations of family in the NAVY....or how I have lots of time in. I can say though, that by common sense, the NAVY is making the right choice at this time. Sailors still can't wear the uniforms they have right. How do we expect them to put on a uniform and just wear it. There needs to be a trial period for the entire NAVY to wear the uniform and understand the proper wear. How many times a day can you see someone with a uniform on that is too small, stained, loose threads, not ironed, smells...i could go on and on. The NAVY a lot of what seems like common sense issues....but i think they are doing the right thing here. I am more than positive that within the next couple years, once everyone has the uniform in the fleet...a new more relaxed regulation will come out. Time and patience are what will solve this ongoing debate.

IT2 (SW/AW)
San Diego
:cool:

[Yggdrasil]

There needs to be a trial period for the entire NAVY to wear the uniform and understand the proper wear. How many times a day can you see someone with a uniform on that is too small, stained, loose threads, not ironed, smells...i could go on and on.
IT2 (SW/AW)
San Diego
:cool:

I remember when I went to boot camp in December 1999 - EVERY uniform issued to us, we learned to wear in a matter of HOURS. I'm sure that people in the other services learn how to wear their cammies in a matter of HOURS in their respective boot camps as well.

If you can learn to wear 13 button/jumper top/square knot dress blues in a matter of hours, the higher ups in the Navy must think we're all a bunch of idiots if they think that learning how to wear the NWU is going to take months or years to learn how to wear properly.

[DoABarrelRoll]

I can't go on how I have generations of family in the NAVY....or how I have lots of time in. I can say though, that by common sense, the NAVY is making the right choice at this time. Sailors still can't wear the uniforms they have right. How do we expect them to put on a uniform and just wear it. There needs to be a trial period for the entire NAVY to wear the uniform and understand the proper wear. How many times a day can you see someone with a uniform on that is too small, stained, loose threads, not ironed, smells...i could go on and on. The NAVY a lot of what seems like common sense issues....but i think they are doing the right thing here. I am more than positive that within the next couple years, once everyone has the uniform in the fleet...a new more relaxed regulation will come out. Time and patience are what will solve this ongoing debate.

IT2 (SW/AW)
San Diego
:cool:

That isn't common sense... having a sign near a low hanging pipe that reads something along the lines of "Watch your head, this pipe is pretty low... idiot" isn't common sense....

I read the message, and I put the uniform on correctly. It isn't hard unless you have a learning disability. I mean seriously. The only thing you have to know aside from "put pants on legs and shirt over shoulders" is you have to blouse your boots. If they can teach some of the SeaBees I've met how to do it, Joe Nub can learn just as well in 1 5 minute section of GMT.

[MineSweepBosn]

That isn't common sense... having a sign near a low hanging pipe that reads something along the lines of "Watch your head, this pipe is pretty low... idiot" isn't common sense....

I read the message, and I put the uniform on correctly. It isn't hard unless you have a learning disability. I mean seriously. The only thing you have to know aside from "put pants on legs and shirt over shoulders" is you have to blouse your boots. If they can teach some of the SeaBees I've met how to do it, Joe Nub can learn just as well in 1 5 minute section of GMT.

I agree partly. It is'nt an issue of common sense when it comes to how the uniform should be worn. Where the common sense comes in is how some sailors chose to wear it. For example, cover cocked back on the head, boots covered with paint, grease, rust etc, pockets unbuttoned flapping around, sleeves rolled half up the forearm, pants sagging to the bottom of the ass cheeks. All issues with how alot of sailors are wearing the current uniforms. That is where we come in as LPO's and senior enlisted, that is the "proper wear" issue, it does only take minutes to train sailors how it is supposed to be worn. It is going to be a long time before we see a change in the wear restrictions. All the complaining about how its unfair, unjust, stupid, doesnt make any sense, all the trash talking, is a glaring example of why it is going to take forever for the restrictions to be rivised. Take the regulations for what they are, stop complaining and lets all do our jobs. Ensure that our sailors are acting like responsible and mature adults, and following the regulations that we "ALL" agreed to follow. Instead of being the example that gives our junior sailors a reason to buck the system. Be the example that your supposed to be, the example that gives them the motivation to do what we are supposed to do. This isnt directed at any one individual, so i apologize if you take it personal. If you do take it personal then you might need to do some soul searching and figure out why!

[Yggdrasil]

I agree partly. It is'nt an issue of common sense when it comes to how the uniform should be worn. Where the common sense comes in is how some sailors chose to wear it. For example, cover cocked back on the head, boots covered with paint, grease, rust etc, pockets unbuttoned flapping around, sleeves rolled half up the forearm, pants sagging to the bottom of the ass cheeks. All issues with how alot of sailors are wearing the current uniforms. That is where we come in as LPO's and senior enlisted, that is the "proper wear" issue, it does only take minutes to train sailors how it is supposed to be worn. It is going to be a long time before we see a change in the wear restrictions. All the complaining about how its unfair, unjust, stupid, doesnt make any sense, all the trash talking, is a glaring example of why it is going to take forever for the restrictions to be rivised. Take the regulations for what they are, stop complaining and lets all do our jobs. Ensure that our sailors are acting like responsible and mature adults, and following the regulations that we "ALL" agreed to follow. Instead of being the example that gives our junior sailors a reason to buck the system. Be the example that your supposed to be, the example that gives them the motivation to do what we are supposed to do. This isnt directed at any one individual, so i apologize if you take it personal. If you do take it personal then you might need to do some soul searching and figure out why!

Well, I wouldn't say that... because, now that the NWU is being issued in boot camp, for those of us who are stationed outside of NAVREGMIDLANT, it looks like Joe Seaman from straight out of "A" school will be teaching US how to wear the NWU properly. I'm a PS1, nine and a half years in the Navy - and I have no problem with who trains me to wear it properly - though it appears to be alot easier to wear than any of the uniforms we currently have.

The main problem I see here is that all these complaints with how Sailors are wearing their current utilities shows that we only notice when Sailors are wearing the uniform improperly. Those Sailors are in the minority, a very small minority, yet those are the ones we think ALL junior Sailors are like.

[MineSweepBosn]

Well, I wouldn't say that... because, now that the NWU is being issued in boot camp, for those of us who are stationed outside of NAVREGMIDLANT, it looks like Joe Seaman from straight out of "A" school will be teaching US how to wear the NWU properly. I'm a PS1, nine and a half years in the Navy - and I have no problem with who trains me to wear it properly - though it appears to be alot easier to wear than any of the uniforms we currently have.

The main problem I see here is that all these complaints with how Sailors are wearing their current utilities shows that we only notice when Sailors are wearing the uniform improperly. Those Sailors are in the minority, a very small minority, yet those are the ones we think ALL junior Sailors are like.

I couldnt agree more with you. I also have no problem with anyone showing me how to do anything, regardless of pay grade. And yes i know that the sailors with unacceptable uniforms is the exception and not the norm. But it is those small minority of sailors that get the attention, because an unacceptable uniform in itself draws attention. My point was that that small minority that do draw the negative attention could cause the rest of us us to pay. I am in no way attempting to pass the buck. I ensure that my sailors are in proper uniform, and i was justt making the point that we should all be doing that. Not sure how it is where you are, but sailors here are recognized for good and bad. I know thats not how it is everywhere, and i feel that is sad and unacceptable.

[ET1(SS) Keith]

Now here's a question i raised before, and i'll raise it again. what ever happened to working coveralls? it really hits a deep nerve every time i see anything along the lines of "hides dirt and stains" when referring to the new uniforms. i'll admit that i ruined a few sets of utilities early on, but that was through carelessness(my own ignorance/stupidity) before i figured out i could just change into a "dirty" uniform to do dirty work.

[Yggdrasil]

Now here's a question i raised before, and i'll raise it again. what ever happened to working coveralls? it really hits a deep nerve every time i see anything along the lines of "hides dirt and stains" when referring to the new uniforms. i'll admit that i ruined a few sets of utilities early on, but that was through carelessness(my own ignorance/stupidity) before i figured out i could just change into a "dirty" uniform to do dirty work.

What I never understood is the need for two working uniforms in the first place. We were only going to have one, but former MCPON Joe Campa pissed that one away.

That said, the NWU was not meant to hide "dirt" or anything that else that will come out by throwing your uniforms in the washer, something that anyone with a good sense of person hygiene and common sense will do. Things like spots of paint and grease; i.e., things that cannot be wash out, are what the uniforms are dseigned to hide - keeping you from having to buy new uniforms every time you get something small on them.

The effect? Instead of working to the best of your ability without messing up your uniform, you can now work to the best of your ability.

[ET1(SS) Keith]

What I never understood is the need for two working uniforms in the first place. We were only going to have one, but former MCPON Joe Campa pissed that one away.

That said, the NWU was not meant to hide "dirt" or anything that else that will come out by throwing your uniforms in the washer, something that anyone with a good sense of person hygiene and common sense will do. Things like spots of paint and grease; i.e., things that cannot be wash out, are what the uniforms are dseigned to hide - keeping you from having to buy new uniforms every time you get something small on them.

The effect? Instead of working to the best of your ability without messing up your uniform, you can now work to the best of your ability.

I can see where you're coming from, and I agree with you, but i don't see how we couldn't do this already by just working a little bit smarter. And just a question, out of curiosity because I haven't really heard anything since MCPON Campa stepped down, but what has MCPON West done so far since taking over?

[Yggdrasil]

I can see where you're coming from, and I agree with you, but i don't see how we couldn't do this already by just working a little bit smarter. And just a question, out of curiosity because I haven't really heard anything since MCPON Campa stepped down, but what has MCPON West done so far since taking over?

Within DAYS of becoming MCPON, he established the continuation board - to get rid of the dead weight in the Chief's Mess, to open billets for people like you and me.

MCPON West is also in the process of making warfare qualifications in ALL communities follow the same process as it does on submarines - making it a requirement for all hands, instead of making it optional for E4 and below and not mandatory until E5.

MCPON West is also changing the EVAL system for E6 and below as well.

As far as I'm concerned, MCPON Campa did nothing except reverse everything that MCPON Scott put into place, and tried to turn the Chief's Mess into his vision of "old school" Chiefs. Funny thing is, Joe Campa came in the Navy in the early 80's, and I'm told that before the Tailhook incident, the Navy was nothing more than a backyard barbecue where all kinds of fraternization was going on, and smoking pot only meant a suspended bust and restriction, if that. I'm sure there were some outstanding Chiefs then who had integrity, but I honestly can't say that that's how I'd want my Navy run.

[ET1(SS) Keith]

Within DAYS of becoming MCPON, he established the continuation board - to get rid of the dead weight in the Chief's Mess, to open billets for people like you and me.

MCPON West is also in the process of making warfare qualifications in ALL communities follow the same process as it does on submarines - making it a requirement for all hands, instead of making it optional for E4 and below and not mandatory until E5.

MCPON West is also changing the EVAL system for E6 and below as well.

As far as I'm concerned, MCPON Campa did nothing except reverse everything that MCPON Scott put into place, and tried to turn the Chief's Mess into his vision of "old school" Chiefs. Funny thing is, Joe Campa came in the Navy in the early 80's, and I'm told that before the Tailhook incident, the Navy was nothing more than a backyard barbecue where all kinds of fraternization was going on, and smoking pot only meant a suspended bust and restriction, if that. I'm sure there were some outstanding Chiefs then who had integrity, but I honestly can't say that that's how I'd want my Navy run.

wow, ok. I had the chance to meet MCPON Campa when he visited my command... he reeked of "politician". The impression I got from what he was putting out for the Chiefs mess was that he was trying to make them take their power back from the officers.

[Yggdrasil]

wow, ok. I had the chance to meet MCPON Campa when he visited my command... he reeked of "politician". The impression I got from what he was putting out for the Chiefs mess was that he was trying to make them take their power back from the officers.

MCPON West is doing the same thing, with getting more disciplinary power to the Chief's Mess, that way they can save a potential problem Sailor's career by discipling them in ways that won't go on the Sailor's record. I think that this is the better way to go about it. Like MCPON Scott, MCPON West is focusing on ALL enlisted Sailors, E1-E9, and not just the Chief's Mess.

The only issue I might take, however, is that MCPON West mention that the Chief's Mess can intervene even if the Sailor hasn't done anything wrong, but shows signs of heading in that direction. This is something, I believe, that First Classes should be used for - because it would allow us to get involved before it got to the Chief's Mess.

[jeffersj]

...
As far as I'm concerned, MCPON Campa did nothing except reverse everything that MCPON Scott put into place, and tried to turn the Chief's Mess into his vision of "old school" Chiefs. Funny thing is, Joe Campa came in the Navy in the early 80's, and I'm told that before the Tailhook incident, the Navy was nothing more than a backyard barbecue where all kinds of fraternization was going on, and smoking pot only meant a suspended bust and restriction, if that. I'm sure there were some outstanding Chiefs then who had integrity, but I honestly can't say that that's how I'd want my Navy run.

Each MCPON brought different things to the table.

In the case of MCPON Scott, he was accused of being a politician, a "yes man" for the Wardroom, and some felt that he did more to remove the Chiefs from the day to day operations of the Navy as well as leading their subordinates and training both the junior enlisted personnel to make the Navy run and the officers in practical things they need to know to run the Navy. Personally, I was very sorry to see some of his training initiatives, as they served to do nothing more than punch tickets instead of teach the Sailor what they needed to know.

The 1980's were hardly the BBQ that you describe. Yes, during the early part there was some leniency, but as time went on the Navy finally figured out that it was better to be short-handed with quality people doing the job than to be fully crewed with the ranks filled with druggies. I personally saw it go from second chances to E-7 and above out on the first bust, then E-6, and finally everyone gone on the first offense. I know of one RMSN in 1990 who tested positive and was thanked for his service as the foot was inserted into his anus on the way out the door.

Yes, there was fraternization. But then, there still is. You just don't see it as only the most blatent cases get into the media.

The divisions between the white hats, the Chiefs, and the Wardroom were there and very visible. The only exception was with regard to the First Classes and the Chiefs, and that is because they had many issues in common with regard to making the Navy run.

[Yggdrasil]

Each MCPON brought different things to the table.

In the case of MCPON Scott, he was accused of being a politician, a "yes man" for the Wardroom, and some felt that he did more to remove the Chiefs from the day to day operations of the Navy as well as leading their subordinates and training both the junior enlisted personnel to make the Navy run and the officers in practical things they need to know to run the Navy. Personally, I was very sorry to see some of his training initiatives, as they served to do nothing more than punch tickets instead of teach the Sailor what they needed to know.

Two things with that:

1. I disagree that MCPON Scott was a "yes man." While I believe that most Chiefs are very effective leaders, ultimately, if the officer that the Chief reports to says that "This is the way it's going to be," then the Chief has no choice but to "roger up." That said, MCPON Campa has had the luxery of reporting to CNOs who were nowhere near as determined to do whatever they wanted to do while ignoring everyone else as ADM Vern Clark was (sea swap, surge readiness, reduced manning, anyone?).

For MCPON Scott to achieve half of what he did under such a CNO, I believe showed that he was no "yes man." Foir example, while I have no problem with advancement exams myself, many (if not most) Sailors want them gone. MCPON Scott set up Task Force Excel with the goal to make that happen, and on top of that, eliminate the need for frocking since the most qualified Sailor according to the Five Vector Model would advance immediately as soon as a slot opened up, any time of the year. Of course, when MCPON Scott left, so did TFE.

He also implemented the 14 year HYT for E5's - something that was very long overdue (very few junior Sailors who aspire to be Chiefs someday find it easy to have any respect for a 19-year E5).

As well, he implemented the the requirement of an associates to be board eligible for Senior Chief. Admittedly, I was against this in the beginning - until I sucked it up and started school, and realized how easy it was. Where we have the Chief exam to separate those who want the anchors more than others, every Chief with a P or above on their FITREP is board eligible for Senior Chief. The associates degree was going to be the one thing that separated those who worked for board eligibility from those who didn't, which would result in less record for those with the associates degree to be compared against. But now that's gone.

I'm aware that MCPON Scott was very soft-spoken, and MCPON Campa had the image of the "hard ass" that everyone thinks Chiefs are supposed to be like; which I think contributed to MCPON Campa god-like status.

2. When it comes to Sailors not recieving the proper training and being as ready, I think that the man to look to is MCPON Herdt - the MCPON who was responsible for getting rid of PARS, removing the requirement of NRTC's, doing away with advancement points for warfare quals, and doing away with advancement points for degrees in the first place. Probably the only thing I agreed with him on was doing away with time in service points.


The 1980's were hardly the BBQ that you describe. Yes, during the early part there was some leniency, but as time went on the Navy finally figured out that it was better to be short-handed with quality people doing the job than to be fully crewed with the ranks filled with druggies. I personally saw it go from second chances to E-7 and above out on the first bust, then E-6, and finally everyone gone on the first offense. I know of one RMSN in 1990 who tested positive and was thanked for his service as the foot was inserted into his anus on the way out the door.

Yes, there was fraternization. But then, there still is. You just don't see it as only the most blatent cases get into the media.

The divisions between the white hats, the Chiefs, and the Wardroom were there and very visible. The only exception was with regard to the First Classes and the Chiefs, and that is because they had many issues in common with regard to making the Navy run.

Right, but as I understand it, there was no fraternization policy in the 80's, or if there was, it wasn't enforced.

I do, however, believe that more independant decision making concerning leadership of junior Sailors needs to be delegated to First Classes and even Second Classes. There's far to many situations, for example, where junior Sailors don't like the work that the Second Class is making them do, so they go cry to the First Class or Chief, who then ends up telling that junior Sailor that they don't have to do it. Maybe I didn't notice until then, but it seems like this started around 2004 or 2005. I know that back in 2000, when I was a PNSN, if I cried to PN1 because PN2 made me swab the deck, then PN1 would say, "So why the f*** aren't you out there doing what PN2 told you to do? Get the f*** out of my face!"

Now, it's like, there are so many Petty Officers who need the blessing of their seniors before they tell a junior Sailor to do anything.

I think that MCPON Campa was going to do something with First Classes, but it didn't last long. We'll see what MCPON West has in store for us...

[euzkadiCA]

Yeah that what i want...more power to the Chiefs Mess (sarcasm) Face it, until we get people in senior leadership positions who will work FOR the E-6 and below, I am not in favor of giving any more power to any of these sorry excuses for leaders. The officer side or the chiefs mess, same same. Just a bunch of people generally more interested in looking out for their priviledges than the people they are supposed to be mentoring. Call it whatever you want either side is a good old boys club. The 80's or the 90's makes no difference, one was more "crusty" and allowed to get away with it because that was as good as you got. Don't think many old salts would make it in todays Navy. But on the other hand they were much better at getting the job done most people currently serving

[Silver Fox]

Well, sounds like it's not any better on this side of the pond. :o

[jeffersj]

Two things with that:

1. I disagree that MCPON Scott was a "yes man." While I believe that most Chiefs are very effective leaders, ultimately, if the officer that the Chief reports to says that "This is the way it's going to be," then the Chief has no choice but to "roger up." That said, MCPON Campa has had the luxery of reporting to CNOs who were nowhere near as determined to do whatever they wanted to do while ignoring everyone else as ADM Vern Clark was (sea swap, surge readiness, reduced manning, anyone?).

For MCPON Scott to achieve half of what he did under such a CNO, I believe showed that he was no "yes man." Foir example, while I have no problem with advancement exams myself, many (if not most) Sailors want them gone. MCPON Scott set up Task Force Excel with the goal to make that happen, and on top of that, eliminate the need for frocking since the most qualified Sailor according to the Five Vector Model would advance immediately as soon as a slot opened up, any time of the year. Of course, when MCPON Scott left, so did TFE.

He also implemented the 14 year HYT for E5's - something that was very long overdue (very few junior Sailors who aspire to be Chiefs someday find it easy to have any respect for a 19-year E5).

As well, he implemented the the requirement of an associates to be board eligible for Senior Chief. Admittedly, I was against this in the beginning - until I sucked it up and started school, and realized how easy it was. Where we have the Chief exam to separate those who want the anchors more than others, every Chief with a P or above on their FITREP is board eligible for Senior Chief. The associates degree was going to be the one thing that separated those who worked for board eligibility from those who didn't, which would result in less record for those with the associates degree to be compared against. But now that's gone.

I'm aware that MCPON Scott was very soft-spoken, and MCPON Campa had the image of the "hard ass" that everyone thinks Chiefs are supposed to be like; which I think contributed to MCPON Campa god-like status.

2. When it comes to Sailors not recieving the proper training and being as ready, I think that the man to look to is MCPON Herdt - the MCPON who was responsible for getting rid of PARS, removing the requirement of NRTC's, doing away with advancement points for warfare quals, and doing away with advancement points for degrees in the first place. Probably the only thing I agreed with him on was doing away with time in service points.



Right, but as I understand it, there was no fraternization policy in the 80's, or if there was, it wasn't enforced.

I do, however, believe that more independant decision making concerning leadership of junior Sailors needs to be delegated to First Classes and even Second Classes. There's far to many situations, for example, where junior Sailors don't like the work that the Second Class is making them do, so they go cry to the First Class or Chief, who then ends up telling that junior Sailor that they don't have to do it. Maybe I didn't notice until then, but it seems like this started around 2004 or 2005. I know that back in 2000, when I was a PNSN, if I cried to PN1 because PN2 made me swab the deck, then PN1 would say, "So why the f*** aren't you out there doing what PN2 told you to do? Get the f*** out of my face!"

Now, it's like, there are so many Petty Officers who need the blessing of their seniors before they tell a junior Sailor to do anything.

I think that MCPON Campa was going to do something with First Classes, but it didn't last long. We'll see what MCPON West has in store for us...

First off, I never said I agreed that MCPON Scott was a "yes man". He was accused of that in various ways in different forums. Like anyone, some things I agreed with, some I didn't. Yes, I am well aware that when the CO says "that's enough" discussion shuts off, you get in line and step out smartly.

Should more go down to the junior leadership? Yes. Not sure where the trend towards micromanagement started, got a feeling it was on the way long before I joined back in the 1970's. I for one would have liked to see where MCPON Campa was going with the First Classes come to fruition. Having to do "Mommy may I?" gets old after awhile, both military and civilian. But then, one way around that was I simply made it known when the issue came up that I made a decision based on the fact I believed I knew what was going on and felt it was within my responsibility to act. If my Chief agreed, no problem. If not, then I sought their guidance as to my limits so we could work together instead of against each other. Once I got my anchors I did the same with my juniors. We talked, set out limits, only requirement was they keep me informed as to what they did and why. That way if a question came up later I was not blind-sided.

Yes, there was a fraternization policy in the 1980's. Like a lot of things (such as the Physical Readiness program) it got lip service until things got out of hand. Sometimes it takes a major black eye like the one Tailhook convention to force a change.