Grunts turned Pogs

[SuperPog0151]

A wise person once told me, "If there's a problem, don't just sit there a bitch about it, come up with a solution." After being on this forum and going through the threads and of course being in the fleet, I've always come across the age-old "Grunt vs. Pog" argument. I have a suggestion that may eliminate this stupid debate once and for all ; we should make every Marine a mandatory grunt for the first two years of their enlistment.

Here's the proposal: When a person goes into the recruiting office, he chooses the job he wants. He will be briefed that he will be in the infantry for the first two years of his four year contract. After his two years in a line company are up, he will then be sent to his MOS school that he selected upon entering the Marine Corps.

We could eliminate MCT and incorporate SOI in recruit training. So that means, after recruit training is done (moved up from 3 months to however many months they decide) a Marine can be sent directly to a unit.

Pros: 1. Will give the Marine Corps dedicated Marines. By letting the poolees know that they WILL be a grunt and signs up anyway shows their commitment to the organization. 2. More Marines "in the fight." 3. With more Marines "in the fight," deployment rates will be evenly distributed. 4. No more stupid arguments.

Cons: 1. Not sure what to do with women Marines. Maybe make an all female Bn? 2. Marines may want to stay infantry after their two years and will hurt other MOS' need for bodies.

I think that if this plan were to be implented, it'll be a huge success. It truly gives everyone the best of both worlds. And of course the adage of "Every Marine is a rifleman" couldn't be more true.

I know that there are flaws in this proposal so please feel free to submit your suggestions.

[LeaderOfMarines]

A wise person once told me, "If there's a problem, don't just sit there a bitch about it, come up with a solution." After being on this forum and going through the threads and of course being in the fleet, I've always come across the age-old "Grunt vs. Pog" argument. I have a suggestion that may eliminate this stupid debate once and for all ; we should make every Marine a mandatory grunt for the first two years of their enlistment.

Here's the proposal: When a person goes into the recruiting office, he chooses the job he wants. He will be briefed that he will be in the infantry for the first two years of his four year contract. After his two years in a line company are up, he will then be sent to his MOS school that he selected upon entering the Marine Corps.

We could eliminate MCT and incorporate SOI in recruit training. So that means, after recruit training is done (moved up from 3 months to however many months they decide) a Marine can be sent directly to a unit.

Pros: 1. Will give the Marine Corps dedicated Marines. By letting the poolees know that they WILL be a grunt and signs up anyway shows their commitment to the organization. 2. More Marines "in the fight." 3. With more Marines "in the fight," deployment rates will be evenly distributed. 4. No more stupid arguments.

Cons: 1. Not sure what to do with women Marines. Maybe make an all female Bn? 2. Marines may want to stay infantry after their two years and will hurt other MOS' need for bodies.

I think that if this plan were to be implented, it'll be a huge success. It truly gives everyone the best of both worlds. And of course the adage of "Every Marine is a rifleman" couldn't be more true.

I know that there are flaws in this proposal so please feel free to submit your suggestions.

Here is your first flaw...and I was a recruiter so I know. Try telling a kid that he WILL be a grunt and he will laugh at you and walk next door to the Army. Good initiative, bad judgement.

[SuperPog0151]

Ok, that may be true but would you want those that really don't want to be a Marine to join? And plus, as a recruiter, they should try and market it in such a way that would appeal to those individuals that want to join.

[RAYRAY4421]

In your original post you said that too many Marines would want to stay grunt and the other MOS fields would be hurting for numbers. However, I am sure there would be way more Marines that would want out of the grunts and into the original MOS they signed up for. Those that want to be infantry, sign up for; those that go open contract, set themselves up for whatever is given to them; and those that get guaranteed MOS fields get them b/c they are smart enough to do so. Just my 2 cents on the topic . . .

[owens2023]

I wouldn't say that they got them because they were smarter. I know a lot of smart grunts. Some people just take test better than everyone else. It is the same with the ASVAB.

Another con is that some MOS schools are like a year long so when the poolee signs up it is for 5 years vice 4 so they Corps can get a good three to three and half years of work out of the training. This would cause some poolees to sign a contract for 6 years. I am not a recruiter but I think that kind of an initial contract would be a tough sell.

[LeaderOfMarines]

Ok, that may be true but would you want those that really don't want to be a Marine to join? And plus, as a recruiter, they should try and market it in such a way that would appeal to those individuals that want to join.

Yeh, there are thousands of Marines you have came in contact with since you have been in that don't want to be a Marine..."but they are just playing the game". So what is the difference? I would love to see you go try and market that to anyone. You try that infront of a counselor or principal? Closed campus my friend.

[LeaderOfMarines]

I wouldn't say that they got them because they were smarter. I know a lot of smart grunts. Some people just take test better than everyone else. It is the same with the ASVAB.

Another con is that some MOS schools are like a year long so when the poolee signs up it is for 5 years vice 4 so they Corps can get a good three to three and half years of work out of the training. This would cause some poolees to sign a contract for 6 years. I am not a recruiter but I think that kind of an initial contract would be a tough sell.

I would say they were smarter. After you did your inital WRAT test did you average your scores with the RS level average? What about after the EST or the ASVAB? The more you explore, the more likely you are to get a good job. If you just want to be in and don't care what you get, then open contract you go. You can do simple things like get ASVAB for dummies at barns and noble to improve your ASVAB score. By the way, 5 and 6 year contracts are not as hard to sell as you think. Just explaining that they go through extensive training that will give them extensive time towards their journeyman's liscense will go along way.

[kenny10]

So if every Marine was trained to be a grunt and then after being a grunt they went to the POG side, why in the hell would we need grunts? You could just take Marines from every unit until you made a grunt BN, hell you could ask for volunteers.
Every Marine is a rifleman, incorporating SOI into recruit training would be a huge money problem
There is a reason why things are the way they are. Its because the people that actually make decisions, don't give a damn about the stupid grunt vs pog argument.
A Marine is a Marine

Not everyone joins the damn Marine Corps to be a grunt, they want the title Marine and we all earn it whether we are grunts or not.
I can do the basics a grunt can do, but I can't do a grunts job. I am sure if I went to SOI I would have no problem whatsoever and a Grunt cannot do any part of my job
I have a good friend who was a grunt and is now a POG and he is cool as hell and thinks this is a stupid argument and "its something that grunts do to make themselves feel more important"

[wzgriffith]

Ok, that may be true but would you want those that really don't want to be a Marine to join? And plus, as a recruiter, they should try and market it in such a way that would appeal to those individuals that want to join.

It's hard enough to meet quota without adding that as an extra burden. Until I came to a recruiting command I had no idea how hard recruiting actually is. I don't talk trash about recruiters anymore. Its one thing to say "market the infantry in a way that would appeal to people" and another thing to find a way to do it. Besides, we have to be realistic; in a war time situation we're still making mission, but thats becuase we're not turning people down just becuase they wont be a grunt.

[DevilNuts]

Why would you change the entire way the Marine Corps works for the sake of a really, really stupid argument?

The bottom line is this: Any infantry Marine that does not recognize and respect (and vice versa) the strengths and role of his support counterparts is flat out unprofessional.

I am a career POG and some of the toughest SOBs that I have ever worked with were POGs. On the other hand, I have met some grunts that were complete candyasses and couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. It is the warrior mentality that makes a good Marine, not the MOS field.

Chances are I'll never see combat. I've been in over 5 years and never been to Iraq or Afghan. But tell me to my face that I'm not all Marine and see how fast you'll be looking sky in the eye because I can shoot straight (5 time Ex) and I supplement my Marine training with private Krav Maga lessons. And I try to instill that warrior mentality in all Marines whether they are crash fire rescue, admin, radio operators or whatever.

There are S-bags and superstars all over the Marine Corps and MOS has nothing to do with it. If you want to overhaul the way Marines are trained, that's forward thinking and good-to-go. But do it the right way and attack the problem, not the symptom.

My 2¢

EDIT: if you feel inferior because you are a POG then I suggest you go do something about it. Train. Join a MMA gym, volunteer for SERE school. Level out the playing field a bit.

[kenny10]

Why would you change the entire way the Marine Corps works for the sake of a really, really stupid argument?

The bottom line is this: Any infantry Marine that does not recognize and respect (and vice versa) the strengths and role of his support counterparts is flat out unprofessional.

I am a career POG and some of the toughest SOBs that I have ever worked with were POGs. On the other hand, I have met some grunts that were complete candyasses and couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. It is the warrior mentality that makes a good Marine, not the MOS field.

Chances are I'll never see combat. I've been in over 5 years and never been to Iraq or Afghan. But tell me to my face that I'm not all Marine and see how fast you'll be looking sky in the eye because I can shoot straight (5 time Ex) and I supplement my Marine training with private Krav Maga lessons. And I try to instill that warrior mentality in all Marines whether they are crash fire rescue, admin, radio operators or whatever.

There are S-bags and superstars all over the Marine Corps and MOS has nothing to do with it. If you want to overhaul the way Marines are trained, that's forward thinking and good-to-go. But do it the right way and attack the problem, not the symptom.

My 2¢

EDIT: if you feel inferior because you are a POG then I suggest you go do something about it. Train. Join a MMA gym, volunteer for SERE school. Level out the playing field a bit.

Well shooting a person for telling you that you are not a real Marine will land you in jail so I am sure no one cares that you are a 5 time expert.
You are going to get shit, 1 because you are a POG and 2 because you have never deployed and you will get more shit for not deploying
Im a pog, Ive been deployed 4 times and I have been in the shit plenty of times, I get respect from most grunts and if I dont, they sure as hell dont talk shit to my face

[DevilNuts]

I never said I would shoot anybody for anything [maybe knock a puffed-out tough guy on his ass], but to assume because I have not been deployed that I'm a weaker individual is plain effing stupid.

There are no fake Marines. There are Hard Marines, Soft Marines and there are untested Marines. Making assumptions based on MOS field is not only unprofessional, it's sad and it's myopic.

[kenny10]

I never said I would shoot anybody for anything [maybe knock a puffed-out tough guy on his ass], but to assume because I have not been deployed that I'm a weaker individual is plain effing stupid.

There are no fake Marines. There are Hard Marines, Soft Marines and there are untested Marines. Making assumptions based on MOS field is not only unprofessional, it's sad and it's myopic.

All I was saying is that you will def get alot of shit for never having deployed. I haven't even hit my 5 year mark yet and I've deployed 4 times...............you haven't deployed once, why is that?

[DevilNuts]

All I was saying is that you will def get alot of shit for never having deployed. I haven't even hit my 5 year mark yet and I've deployed 4 times...............you haven't deployed once, why is that?


Honestly.... that's a good question. I spent my first 2 years on okinawa, one of those with the MEU. We did a bunch of humanitarian stuff but generally did not deploy into combat (the 31st MEU left for fallujah a few days after I arrived on island, and I got on the next two cycles in the hopes that I would get a turn - no dice).

The final year of my enlistment was spent at MLg on pendleton. Some of them went, my unit did not. I got disgruntled and got out, months later they went.

I turned around and got back in, and now I'm stuck in limbo at an I&I station waiting for orders.

Some people just slip through the cracks. But I have done my share of sleeping in the mud, humping heavy things and I've been to a few other countries... just not one of those two. The thing to remember here is that there are Marines (POGs more specifically) who like myself have felt that sting, and the ones who choose to become nasty and weak... well that's their problem.

I've been picked on by grunts before. I could care less because I know where I stand. I train hard, I learn everything I can and I serve my Corps in everything I do. If someone wants to pretend they are better than me for that, that's fine. Let's take it to the mats and you'll walk away embarrassed.

[CplVelociraptor]

This... This is a very poorly thought out idea.

[Silver Fox]

Ok, that may be true but would you want those that really don't want to be a Marine to join? And plus, as a recruiter, they should try and market it in such a way that would appeal to those individuals that want to join.

Better that than no one to do the job at all, yes?

Plus, that's based on a large assumption that EVERYONE makes a good grunt, which is a common misconception. It takes a lot of testicular fortitude to be in the infantry, more-so than even some Marines outside the infantry have. I think what you'd end up with is a Marine Corps loaded with disgruntled and resentful infantrymen counting down the days until they can go sit behind their desk.

[iluvdrt]

Better that than no one to do the job at all, yes?

Plus, that's based on a large assumption that EVERYONE makes a good grunt, which is a common misconception. It takes a lot of testicular fortitude to be in the infantry, more-so than even some Marines outside the infantry have. I think what you'd end up with is a Marine Corps loaded with disgruntled and resentful infantrymen counting down the days until they can go sit behind their desk.


LOL at this grunt vs POG B/S. Thats all I have to say.

And who ever said the comment about not deploying and being less of a Marine is an idiot. Pat yourself on the back man for you have been deployed.

[kenny10]

I know you are not talking to me because I never said anything about being less of a Marine if you haven't been deployed. All I said was that some Marines tend to think that