Leaders meet at Pentagon to discuss PT changes

[VFFSSGT]

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2009/01/airforce_PT_audit_010209w/


An Air Force-wide audit found the service’s fitness program is failing to keep airmen fit year-round.

Really? I would have never guessed it... Did we really need to waste money to determine this? Most of us already knew it and called the Air Force out on it.


The fitness program “did not effectively promote a healthy lifestyle,” and unit commanders did not give airmen enough time to work out while not cracking down on airmen who failed PT tests, according to a December report released by the Air Force Audit Agency.

Again, this is something we already knew... :rolleyes: Someone said it earlier...The Air Force can never admit any wrongdoing without some type of investigation...


At the 50 units the auditors visited, 16 did not have a written policy that allowed time for group fitness activities or didn’t give airmen time during duty hours to work out.

I wonder if these commanders will be punished for not complying with AF policies and regulations... :rolleyes:


Auditors also found problems with the airmen administering the PT test — especially the waist measurement portion.

The audit agency found many airmen were not as trim as their tests reflected when auditors compared waist measurement results from one year to another. With auditors monitoring the latest fitness tests, 17 percent of airmen had bigger waists without gaining any weight.

A waist measurement for one airman at Barksdale Air Force Base, Calif., went up five inches from the previous year, but curiously, he lost six pounds over that same year.

In response to the audit, Pacific Air Forces Commander Gen. Howie Chandler standardized who will administer the PT test in December, announcing all PT tests will be issued in PacAF by base health and wellness center staff members.

Yes, great answer! :rolleyes: Put additional burdens and stress on a unit probably already undermanned and over worked versus punish the pencil whippers and publicize the consequences of such actions so people will not indulge in this practice. If it was Amn/NCO's it should be a minimum removal of 1 stripe and no suspended crap...I dunno what to do about officers...give them the boot maybe... Oh yeah, and the guy who accepted the fixed score should receive the same punishment plus additional punishment for failure to meet the standard. And we wonder why we have problems.

If you are going to do anything to prevent impropriety have personnel tested by PTL's from other squadrons versus their own, especially their own work center or flight.

[BigBaze]

Just get rid of the waist measurement and you got a level playing field. That way you don't have the people with 26 inch waists walking their 1.5 mile in 20 minutes and passing. The results of this survey are just what 95% of us have been screaming for years now

[S97Batess]

Really, the program doesn't work......naaawwwwwwwww, couldn't be.

It is too bad that the Air Force does not trust their NCOs enough to realize that they have been talking about this since the program was initiated. Imagine the money they would have saved on this audit if they just listened to their own NCOs........that is what an NCO is there for.....to find and correct things so that they work right.......maybe the leadership in this case should have just read here....they would have gotten the same result and saved enough to probably pay for those new people that are going to be the testers at those PACAF bases........baaaaah

[Combat correspondent]

I'll go WAY out on a limb here - how about extending the work day to minimum of 10-12 hours for ALL Airmen?????

Easy enough fix.

Here would be the "typical" dayshift:

0530 - report for mandatory PT M-F
0530-0630 - PT your @ss off until you almost vomit
0630-0730 - Personal time - get shower, change, bkfst...whatever!
0730 - get your @ss to work and not a minute late
0730 - mandatory formation w/ briefing and open ranks
0740-1630 - work your @ss off
1630 - mandatory retriet ceremony for portion of base, others continue to work
1730 - day shift is over, go home!

The shift could be varied for all shifts and AFSCs.

I know, its a novel concept, right! What do you know, we could do a full day of work, build comraderie and fit fitness in all in every day. Can't wait until I become the CMSAF!

[Combat correspondent]

Now will come the gropes and whines about maintenance and SF, etc...not having time! D@mn cry babies. I was maintenance and served 8 mos. as a SF augmentee....I'll tell you what...these bastards just need a boost in morale and some effective leadership and they could work the same shift as above - spread across 3 separate shifts. No problem! I guarantee it!

The problem is these lazy @ss people sit around for too much of their shifts whining about how they have to work a 12 hour shift - boo hoo! We all should work a 12 hours shift - and it should include PT, open ranks, etc. (as I mentioned above)!!!

[Smeghead]

0530 - report for mandatory PT M-F
0530-0630 - PT your @ss off until you almost vomit
0630-0730 - Personal time - get shower, change, bkfst...whatever!
0730 - get your @ss to work and not a minute late
0730 - mandatory formation w/ briefing and open ranks
0740-1630 - work your @ss off
1630 - mandatory retriet ceremony for portion of base, others continue to work
1730 - day shift is over, go home!

This is not the Marine Corps, yet you seem insistent on making it so.

[Combat correspondent]

Nah, I know its not. Why is mandatory PT, mandatory open ranks, mandatory work and mandatory retreat a significantly Marine Corp attribute? Not sure I follow you there! It would make ALL Airmen a bit better, tighter knit and motivated.

[VFFSSGT]

I'll go 10-12 hours a day...with only four days a week for the "normal" or "typical" work schedule... I believe we would be much more effective and efficient that way too.

[Capt Alfredo]

Nah, I know its not. Why is mandatory PT, mandatory open ranks, mandatory work and mandatory retreat a significantly Marine Corp attribute? Not sure I follow you there! It would make ALL Airmen a bit better, tighter knit and motivated.

The problem is that people didn't join the *Air Force* to do hooah stuff like that. I can just see how 70-hour weeks would go over with our families. It's one thing to do constant 12s deployed where there is no family, but stateside that would be a deal-breaker. Add in the fact that people sometimes live a good distance from base and you're pretty much taking people's families away from them. I can tell you that retention would PLUMMET.

[Capt Alfredo]

I'll go 10-12 hours a day...with only four days a week for the "normal" or "typical" work schedule... I believe we would be much more effective and efficient that way too.

Yes, if we all worked the Panama schedule, then I'm down with the 12-hour experiment.

[Combat correspondent]

The problem is that people didn't join the *Air Force* to do hooah stuff like that. I can just see how 70-hour weeks would go over with our families. It's one thing to do constant 12s deployed where there is no family, but stateside that would be a deal-breaker. Add in the fact that people sometimes live a good distance from base and you're pretty much taking people's families away from them. I can tell you that retention would PLUMMET.

Fair enough. Lets consider that some people commute - how about a 10 hour day. 50 hours a week is not extreme, nor is a burden on the family. Most civilian professional jobs work 50+ hours a week. Many nations, like Japan, have a 60 hour normal week. Whats the big deal?

I am married to a civilian and have 3 kids - one is a teen and another a tween. When I work 12 hour days - they stick with me. I guess they understand (or I should say, "I made them understand") that this is a family sacrifice and not mine to foot alone.

[Capt Alfredo]

Fair enough. Lets consider that some people commute - how about a 10 hour day. 50 hours a week is not extreme, nor is a burden on the family. Most civilian professional jobs work 50+ hours a week. Many nations, like Japan, have a 60 hour normal week. Whats the big deal?

I am married to a civilian and have 3 kids - one is a teen and another a tween. When I work 12 hour days - they stick with me. I guess they understand (or I should say, "I made them understand") that this is a family sacrifice and not mine to foot alone.

Tens? Sure, I'd be down with that. I pretty much work that anyway, so getting PT during the ten would be gravy. We do formal unit PT twice a week as it is, so an extra three days would be great. Count me in.

[BigBaze]

I'll go WAY out on a limb here - how about extending the work day to minimum of 10-12 hours for ALL Airmen?????

Easy enough fix.

Here would be the "typical" dayshift:

0530 - report for mandatory PT M-F
0530-0630 - PT your @ss off until you almost vomit
0630-0730 - Personal time - get shower, change, bkfst...whatever!
0730 - get your @ss to work and not a minute late
0730 - mandatory formation w/ briefing and open ranks
0740-1630 - work your @ss off
1630 - mandatory retriet ceremony for portion of base, others continue to work
1730 - day shift is over, go home!

The shift could be varied for all shifts and AFSCs.

I know, its a novel concept, right! What do you know, we could do a full day of work, build comraderie and fit fitness in all in every day. Can't wait until I become the CMSAF!


Thanks I needed a good laugh! Let's do morale/warrior/wingman runs every morning because those work too. You want to raise morale???? Give airmen what they need to do their jobs and have their backs, most of them see right through the bullshit. I didn't make a New years resolution but now I have come up with one, hope you are not the CMSAF by the time I retire in 2023

[fufu]

Or........we could just be manned well enough to be given PT time. Theres a novel idea...enough people to do ALL that is required of us...who'd a thunk it...

12 hour shifts SUCK. I've worked some long stretches of 12s in my career and they plain suck. I wouldn't want to work out at 530 in the morning anyway. Some of us need POTS of coffee before we consider working out that early.....lol

[Shrike]

I'll go WAY out on a limb here - how about extending the work day to minimum of 10-12 hours for ALL Airmen?????

Easy enough fix.

Here would be the "typical" dayshift:

0530 - report for mandatory PT M-F
0530-0630 - PT your @ss off until you almost vomit
0630-0730 - Personal time - get shower, change, bkfst...whatever!
0730 - get your @ss to work and not a minute late
0730 - mandatory formation w/ briefing and open ranks
0740-1630 - work your @ss off
1630 - mandatory retriet ceremony for portion of base, others continue to work
1730 - day shift is over, go home!

The shift could be varied for all shifts and AFSCs.

I know, its a novel concept, right! What do you know, we could do a full day of work, build comraderie and fit fitness in all in every day. Can't wait until I become the CMSAF!

You could have joined the services that have that mentality, yet you chose the one with the easiest basic training, lightest hand when it comes to discipline, more lackadaisical work environment, etc. Now you bitch and moan about it. If you want that environment, go be in the USMC. Or are you just faux tough?

[Shrike]

Now will come the gropes and whines about maintenance and SF, etc...not having time! D@mn cry babies. I was maintenance and served 8 mos. as a SF augmentee....I'll tell you what...these bastards just need a boost in morale and some effective leadership and they could work the same shift as above - spread across 3 separate shifts. No problem! I guarantee it!
That's the way to get people to see your side of the issue - refer to them as cry babies and bastards. Brilliant! :rolleyes:



The problem is these lazy @ss people sit around for too much of their shifts whining about how they have to work a 12 hour shift - boo hoo! We all should work a 12 hours shift - and it should include PT, open ranks, etc. (as I mentioned above)!!!

From my experience, when people are sitting around whining about being on 12-hour shifts, it's because there's no reason for them to be on said shifts except for poor leadership. Those in jobs that actually have lots of work to do during those shifts - you know, the cry-baby bastards you refer to above - are actually busy during them, for the most part. But what do I know, I've only been in over twenty years. Your eight months as a SF augmentee obviously provided you with all the answers.
:rolleyes:
:rolleyes:
:rolleyes:

[OIFCOMBATVETNYC]

lol faux tough. I like that. Well he was a former Marine so he misses that world lol.

In the Army that is a schedule but not that short suspense. After Basic and AIT or any military schools but the unit is run like this

0630 accountability formation
0700-0830 PT
0930 First work call
1130-1300 chow
1300-1630 end work perhaps final formation with 1SG
1630-1800 special population PT for soldiers that didnt pass weight/tape or cant pass the PT test/low averages or air assault PT for air assault school. That was 101st.

Well as an MP who worked different shifts; it didnt work that way. Sometimes I did group PT at 0330 am but oh well. Looking forward to civvy life someday where you can be lazy and a nice couch potato and grow fat lol.

[Shrike]

Fair enough. Lets consider that some people commute - how about a 10 hour day. 50 hours a week is not extreme, nor is a burden on the family. Most civilian professional jobs work 50+ hours a week.
List some. First, you'll need a standard definition of "professional" jobs. Then you'll need to show that a clear majority of them work more than 10 hours a day.


Many nations, like Japan, have a 60 hour normal week. Whats the big deal?
List them, please. I've done some Googling and can find no studies showing "many" nations having a 60-hour work week. Most studies I found showed the Japanese as working an average range of between 44-49 hours a week, and their trend has been an overall reduction in work hours. You're not just pulling numbers out of your ass, are you?


I am married to a civilian and have 3 kids - one is a teen and another a tween. When I work 12 hour days - they stick with me. I guess they understand (or I should say, "I made them understand") that this is a family sacrifice and not mine to foot alone.
Well, from the tone of your posts on here, it's probably impressive to them when you walk across water to address them.

[Smeghead]

Nah, I know its not. Why is mandatory PT, mandatory open ranks, mandatory work and mandatory retreat a significantly Marine Corp attribute? Not sure I follow you there! It would make ALL Airmen a bit better, tighter knit and motivated.

Because all you do is complain how we're not like the Marine Corps. Duh. Just figured that out?

The Air Force is and always has been the least "military" of the branches. Even when we were the USAAC and USAAF we were an undisciplined, non-conforming rabble. Painted jackets and crushed caps? But as much as the Army hated how un-Army fly-boys were, they got the damn job done.

When we became a separate service, the requirements put in place for basic training asked for the men to be able to march well enough to not embarrass anybody, but nothing too military. I'm paraphrasing, I need to the AU paper I read it in.

We joined the Air Force because of the things about the Air Force that appealed to us more than the other branches. I'm sick of listening to people bitch about how I don't deploy as long or work with weapons as much. There is no draft, you chose your service when you walked into the recruiter. If you don't like deploying for 15 months don't join the Army. If you don't like boats don't join the Navy. Pretty straight forward.

The current war has bred a generation of hooah-wannabes who like running round in cool gear without actually having to be a Marine or Soldier. Sure can dress like one though. So you spent some time outside the wire as a PA, big frikkin whoop--so did I. Air Force has no place outside the wire unless we're in a plane dropping ordnance, supplies or ferrying people.

So yeah, PT every day, open ranks every day, formation every day and retreat every day is not what the Air Force is about. Maybe in your ideal world everyone on base will be running and marching round in formation while wearing fatigues like a scene from the opening of Stripes. Ooh let's get some tanks too.

Hey, at least you learned that Airman is capitalized finally.

[OIFCOMBATVETNYC]

Smeghead, Awesome post!!!

[Shrike]

Because all you do is complain how we're not like the Marine Corps. Duh. Just figured that out?

The Air Force is and always has been the least "military" of the branches. Even when we were the USAAC and USAAF we were an undisciplined, non-conforming rabble. Painted jackets and crushed caps? But as much as the Army hated how un-Army fly-boys were, they got the damn job done.

When we became a separate service, the requirements put in place for basic training asked for the men to be able to march well enough to not embarrass anybody, but nothing too military. I'm paraphrasing, I need to the AU paper I read it in.

We joined the Air Force because of the things about the Air Force that appealed to us more than the other branches. I'm sick of listening to people bitch about how I don't deploy as long or work with weapons as much. There is no draft, you chose your service when you walked into the recruiter. If you don't like deploying for 15 months don't join the Army. If you don't like boats don't join the Navy. Pretty straight forward.

The current war has bred a generation of hooah-wannabes who like running round in cool gear without actually having to be a Marine or Soldier. Sure can dress like one though. So you spent some time outside the wire as a PA, big frikkin whoop--so did I. Air Force has no place outside the wire unless we're in a plane dropping ordnance, supplies or ferrying people.

So yeah, PT every day, open ranks every day, formation every day and retreat every day is not what the Air Force is about. Maybe in your ideal world everyone on base will be running and marching round in formation while wearing fatigues like a scene from the opening of Stripes. Ooh let's get some tanks too.

Hey, at least you learned that Airman is capitalized finally.

<applauding>

[Your_Name_Here]

Because all you do is complain how we're not like the Marine Corps. Duh. Just figured that out?

The Air Force is and always has been the least "military" of the branches. Even when we were the USAAC and USAAF we were an undisciplined, non-conforming rabble. Painted jackets and crushed caps? But as much as the Army hated how un-Army fly-boys were, they got the damn job done.

When we became a separate service, the requirements put in place for basic training asked for the men to be able to march well enough to not embarrass anybody, but nothing too military. I'm paraphrasing, I need to the AU paper I read it in.

We joined the Air Force because of the things about the Air Force that appealed to us more than the other branches. I'm sick of listening to people bitch about how I don't deploy as long or work with weapons as much. There is no draft, you chose your service when you walked into the recruiter. If you don't like deploying for 15 months don't join the Army. If you don't like boats don't join the Navy. Pretty straight forward.

The current war has bred a generation of hooah-wannabes who like running round in cool gear without actually having to be a Marine or Soldier. Sure can dress like one though. So you spent some time outside the wire as a PA, big frikkin whoop--so did I. Air Force has no place outside the wire unless we're in a plane dropping ordnance, supplies or ferrying people.

So yeah, PT every day, open ranks every day, formation every day and retreat every day is not what the Air Force is about. Maybe in your ideal world everyone on base will be running and marching round in formation while wearing fatigues like a scene from the opening of Stripes. Ooh let's get some tanks too.

Hey, at least you learned that Airman is capitalized finally.

FOUR THUMBS UP!!! Thanks Smeg!:D

[Pueblo]

Air Force has no place outside the wire unless we're in a plane dropping ordnance, supplies or ferrying people.

No love for OSI?

[Combat correspondent]

No love for OSI?
Not sure Pueblo - ask SMEG! By the way, does OSI drop bombs??? No, well then (according to SMEG), OSI doesn't belong "outside the wire."

Just have OSI invest in binoculars and guard towers and they can do their jobs from "up there." Funny that he actually thinks like that. Hell, in Vietnam Airmen were consistenlty outside the wire. I'm not sure where this flowery view of AF Missions came from. Likely they came from CMSAF Campanale - the @-hole who thought Airmen need single dorm rooms, no room mates and the other array of lush bullcr@p that spoils our Airmen to the bone!

[Capt Alfredo]

Not sure Pueblo - ask SMEG! By the way, does OSI drop bombs??? No, well then (according to SMEG), OSI doesn't belong "outside the wire."

Just have OSI invest in binoculars and guard towers and they can do their jobs from "up there." Funny that he actually thinks like that. Hell, in Vietnam Airmen were consistenlty outside the wire. I'm not sure where this flowery view of AF Missions came from. Likely they came from CMSAF Campanale - the @-hole who thought Airmen need single dorm rooms, no room mates and the other array of lush bullcr@p that spoils our Airmen to the bone!

Dude, I have as little love for Chief Campanale as anyone (he's the guy who told me it wouldn't be fair to get promotion points for education because the aircrews didn't have time to go to school - uh, ever heard of air medals?) but the idea of single dorm rooms and no roommates is by no standard lush. I was an Airman in the dorms back in the day with 2+2 suites and it was MISERABLE.

[Smeghead]

Not sure Pueblo - ask SMEG! By the way, does OSI drop bombs??? No, well then (according to SMEG), OSI doesn't belong "outside the wire."

Just have OSI invest in binoculars and guard towers and they can do their jobs from "up there." Funny that he actually thinks like that. Hell, in Vietnam Airmen were consistenlty outside the wire. I'm not sure where this flowery view of AF Missions came from. Likely they came from CMSAF Campanale - the @-hole who thought Airmen need single dorm rooms, no room mates and the other array of lush bullcr@p that spoils our Airmen to the bone!

Nope, they sure don't. Because if we were FLYING, that's what we do ya see, anyway if we were flying our missions from friendly countries, as we did in wars past, they wouldn't need to do the village patrol and anti-terrorism stuff. They could go back to catching the potheads and pedos.

The flowery view came a little something called Air Force history and tradition. I know we don't have a lot of it, but there's still little remnants left. If you don't like it go back to the Corps. You talk a lot of hard charging crap, but at the end of the day you're a 3N. How is it your brethren say it? Oh yeah, Motard POG!

[ART]

I'll go WAY out on a limb here - how about extending the work day to minimum of 10-12 hours for ALL Airmen?????

Easy enough fix.

Here would be the "typical" dayshift:

0530 - report for mandatory PT M-F
0530-0630 - PT your @ss off until you almost vomit
0630-0730 - Personal time - get shower, change, bkfst...whatever!
0730 - get your @ss to work and not a minute late
0730 - mandatory formation w/ briefing and open ranks
0740-1630 - work your @ss off
1630 - mandatory retriet ceremony for portion of base, others continue to work
1730 - day shift is over, go home!

The shift could be varied for all shifts and AFSCs.

I know, its a novel concept, right! What do you know, we could do a full day of work, build comraderie and fit fitness in all in every day. Can't wait until I become the CMSAF!


Now THAT, my friend, is some funny shit. All that will do is piss off the people who are already in and discourage others from joining.

Tell ya what, join the USMC or the Army. Your attitude isn't a good fit for the USAF.

[Pueblo]

Nope, they sure don't. Because if we were FLYING, that's what we do ya see, anyway if we were flying our missions from friendly countries, as we did in wars past, they wouldn't need to do the village patrol and anti-terrorism stuff. They could go back to catching the potheads and pedos.

Smeg I was with you up until now. Every branch should have an elite human intelligence community. Gaining informants and understanding the covert threats on the ground is an essential element of what we do, and that shouldn't be limited to the ground elements of the military. Not to mention that anti-terrorism is really just a more enhanced and agressive version of the threat detection that AFOSI's been responsible for from the beginning.

[BigBaze]

Because all you do is complain how we're not like the Marine Corps. Duh. Just figured that out?

The Air Force is and always has been the least "military" of the branches. Even when we were the USAAC and USAAF we were an undisciplined, non-conforming rabble. Painted jackets and crushed caps? But as much as the Army hated how un-Army fly-boys were, they got the damn job done.

When we became a separate service, the requirements put in place for basic training asked for the men to be able to march well enough to not embarrass anybody, but nothing too military. I'm paraphrasing, I need to the AU paper I read it in.

We joined the Air Force because of the things about the Air Force that appealed to us more than the other branches. I'm sick of listening to people bitch about how I don't deploy as long or work with weapons as much. There is no draft, you chose your service when you walked into the recruiter. If you don't like deploying for 15 months don't join the Army. If you don't like boats don't join the Navy. Pretty straight forward.

The current war has bred a generation of hooah-wannabes who like running round in cool gear without actually having to be a Marine or Soldier. Sure can dress like one though. So you spent some time outside the wire as a PA, big frikkin whoop--so did I. Air Force has no place outside the wire unless we're in a plane dropping ordnance, supplies or ferrying people.

So yeah, PT every day, open ranks every day, formation every day and retreat every day is not what the Air Force is about. Maybe in your ideal world everyone on base will be running and marching round in formation while wearing fatigues like a scene from the opening of Stripes. Ooh let's get some tanks too.

Hey, at least you learned that Airman is capitalized finally.


Excellent!

[Cornbreadrules]

How did we survive the first Gulf War without PT?

[Combat correspondent]

Easy - we bombed the shit out of them, then ground forces moved in. However, the total operation lasted a few months - not many years. PT was not an issue then - it is now. We have far too many FAT ASS Airmen and it all boils down to each of our own commitments to unwavering professionalism...do you have it? does he have it? does she have it? do I have it? We all need to ask ourselves these questions and make sure we do - the American and international public deserves no less.

[Smeghead]

Smeg I was with you up until now. Every branch should have an elite human intelligence community. Gaining informants and understanding the covert threats on the ground is an essential element of what we do, and that shouldn't be limited to the ground elements of the military. Not to mention that anti-terrorism is really just a more enhanced and agressive version of the threat detection that AFOSI's been responsible for from the beginning.

And that's one of the problems, there's too much duplication of effort. Does every branch really needs its own "insert thing here?"

My last deployment I was based out of the CAOC, thankfully I didn't have to stay there too much, but I was always under the impression the CAOC controlled the air war. Then I ended up at Victory and was given a tour of another CAOC, this one Army. How many more of the damn things are out there?

Every branch is moving too far to becoming generalists instead of the Air/Land/Sea specialists they should be.

But this thread is now way off topic. Yes PT program needs fixing. If it's on my EPR it needs to fairly administrated.

[Shrike]

Easy - we bombed the shit out of them, then ground forces moved in. However, the total operation lasted a few months - not many years. PT was not an issue then - it is now. We have far too many FAT ASS Airmen and it all boils down to each of our own commitments to unwavering professionalism...do you have it? does he have it? does she have it? do I have it? We all need to ask ourselves these questions and make sure we do - the American and international public deserves no less.

Then we should be getting swarmed with tons of briefings about how the USAF's mission while deployed has been failing due to Airmen having weight problems. Yet I haven't heard a single peep about such an epidemic problem. Perhaps because it's bullpoo (kind of like your "Japanese 60-hour work week statements)?

[zerstorer335]

I agree with the audit's finding that the fitness program doesn't promote a healthy lifestyle. Right now, it's "Pass the PFT or else!" rather than "be fit". The PFT is presented more as a force-shaping tool rather than a liftestyle-improvement mechanism. We're making slow progress, but we need to do more.

People failing and nothing being done is inexcusable, flat out. I failed my test last year by 0.6 points (That'll be the last time I go running fot the test in sub-freezing temperatures), and my commander wanted a fitness and diet plan outline by COB that day, with finalized, quantifiable plans the next Monday. I also had to attend a class at the HAWC. I stuck to the plan I developed, and got the second-highest score I ever had. But the key here wasn't the AF saying "Be fit or else" or even the class. It was because I went to pre-deployment training a week later where I had a gym available and classes stopped at 1700 for most of the 21-day course. The plan I used was the same one I'd used in college. What made the difference was the AF finally said "give him time to work out" and I had a schedule that allowed for it.

I feel the AF should take a hard look at the overall program, and I'm a big fan of more standardization, but not complete standardization. The PACAF policy of using HAWC personnel as testers is a step, but not much of one (standardizaton's been an issue as long as I can recall). Just as a schoolteacher gives the students what they need to pass the exam, the AF needs a program that goes beyond supervisors allowing personnel 1.5 hours, three times a week for PT. They should come up with a specific program that takes care of the basics. For example:

1) PT will be done and logged as a unit for at least 1 hour, 3 times a week. This means commanders have eyes-on on their personnel's fitness on a weekly basis.
2) Units need to cover X miles per week (It doesn't even need to always be a straight run, it can be broken up)
3) Units need to do calisthenics to incluce Push-ups, sit-ups, X, Y, and Z to such-and-such degree.
4) At least once a month, units will do a fitness diagnostic, at least including the timed 1.5 mile run, sit-ups, and push-ups as a non-punitive measurement tool.

Simply getting out and doing the exercises included in the test can do a lot. But beyond these minimums, individuals should be MADE to develop their own fitness plan to fill the remaining time. This gives them both ownership of the process and the ability to tailor it to their own needs, thereby making it a part of their life choices, not just a set of motions mandated by the AF. That should take care of the three 1.5-hour sessions supervisors are required to allow, except it mandates and provides supervision for them.

Beyond that, I feel members should be allowed two one-hour "free" sessions individuals are free to take or leave as the workload allows. This allows for further personal customization and the "esprit de corps" games some use for PT but which, technially, aren't allowed for PT. But, since these are optional, they're only one hour long- if you're doing it for yourself, you can shower on your own time.

Sure, we could do it with an Army-style schecule, but most bases (at least the ones I've seen) aren't outfitted with sufficient fitness facilities for all non-shift personnel to exercise at the same time, and there are other places the money we have needs to go right now. On to of that, right now, I, and many others I know, are doing the work of more than one person (sometimes not in the same AFSC), so all mandatory formations would do is take up already prescious time and, probably, make people stay even later.

[Measure Man]

Because all you do is complain how we're not like the Marine Corps. Duh. Just figured that out?

The Air Force is and always has been the least "military" of the branches. Even when we were the USAAC and USAAF we were an undisciplined, non-conforming rabble. Painted jackets and crushed caps? But as much as the Army hated how un-Army fly-boys were, they got the damn job done.

When we became a separate service, the requirements put in place for basic training asked for the men to be able to march well enough to not embarrass anybody, but nothing too military. I'm paraphrasing, I need to the AU paper I read it in.

We joined the Air Force because of the things about the Air Force that appealed to us more than the other branches. I'm sick of listening to people bitch about how I don't deploy as long or work with weapons as much. There is no draft, you chose your service when you walked into the recruiter. If you don't like deploying for 15 months don't join the Army. If you don't like boats don't join the Navy. Pretty straight forward.

The current war has bred a generation of hooah-wannabes who like running round in cool gear without actually having to be a Marine or Soldier. Sure can dress like one though. So you spent some time outside the wire as a PA, big frikkin whoop--so did I. Air Force has no place outside the wire unless we're in a plane dropping ordnance, supplies or ferrying people.

So yeah, PT every day, open ranks every day, formation every day and retreat every day is not what the Air Force is about. Maybe in your ideal world everyone on base will be running and marching round in formation while wearing fatigues like a scene from the opening of Stripes. Ooh let's get some tanks too.

Hey, at least you learned that Airman is capitalized finally.

Spot on!

If the AF has an identity crisis...it's because we've stopped trying to be the AF and are trying to be the other services.

The AF heritage is one that emphasises technical skills over general military training...

It's one that favors AFSC-identity over Service-identity.

The AF Creed, push for more generalization amongst SMSgts and CMSgts...all takes us away from that heritage...then we wonder why we have lost the "basics" and need to go back to them.

...because the AF tells every sharp SSgt and TSgt...that to prepare for SMSgt and CMSgt you "have to step out of your career field and show you can do something else"... Well, gee, we direct our best and brightest away from their primary function and then wonder why those functions aren't performing as well.

I tell you on thing...it's not because the old days NCOs were so much tougher and would put a boot in guys' ass...that shit never happened much in the AF...in fact, it probably happens more now than ever...but that isn't really effective leadership...and is not what we need. We definitely don't need to be more like the Army.

[Combat correspondent]

Bottom Line: The PT program is here to stay and will, in fact, get tougher! That train has left the station...get on board!

Sure, many Airmen resist PT because they feel it is not part of their "duty" or not vital to the Air Force's "mission." Whatever!

It is all our responsibility to be fit. There's really no reason every Airman can't exceed a 85 to 90% on there fittest. It keeps them from getting sick as often, increases their motivation and energy levels at work and at home, promotes esprit de corps and builds morale, plus is vital in the deployed environment.

The only reason some bases and some PTLs are throwing wrenches in the system is because they do not sincerely believe in the program. Kick their fat @sses to the curb!!!!

[BTDTNM]

Right now the requirement is to get a 75 to pass once a year. Any questions? Is this study a surprise to anyone? Thanks for wasting the money. How fit do we really need to be? How much time can we afford to program in for PT? Is it really that important? Seems like an awful lot of effort is going into things like this that could be better spent in other areas. Like not failing "N" inspections, Class A mishaps, airplanes falling apart, deployments and god forbid maybe enjoy a day off someday.

Unless you look like a turd in your uniform give it a rest. PT is NOT THE MOST PRESSING ISSUE IN THE AIR FORCE RIGHT NOW!!!!!

[Rastaman]

Bottom Line: The PT program is here to stay and will, in fact, get tougher! That train has left the station...get on board!

Sure, many Airmen resist PT because they feel it is not part of their "duty" or not vital to the Air Force's "mission." Whatever!

It is all our responsibility to be fit. There's really no reason every Airman can't exceed a 85 to 90% on there fittest. It keeps them from getting sick as often, increases their motivation and energy levels at work and at home, promotes esprit de corps and builds morale, plus is vital in the deployed environment.

The only reason some bases and some PTLs are throwing wrenches in the system is because they do not sincerely believe in the program. Kick their fat @sses to the curb!!!!

So, if you are correct, we had low/poor morale/health/esprit de corps from 1947 until 2004 when the PT program was implemented???

People like you are the problem...you make PT into this all-important, life-or-death matter...when it is simply one of many things that makes up a successful Airman. People fudge the test because of commanders/supervisors thought proceseses like yours...instead of putting it in it's proper perspective. :rolleyes:

[Combat correspondent]

People like you are the problem...you make PT into this all-important, life-or-death matter...when it is simply one of many things that makes up a successful Airman. People fudge the test because of commanders/supervisors thought proceseses like yours...instead of putting it in it's proper perspective. :rolleyes:

Don't agree that I am the problem, Rastaman --- BUT, by all means, continue to roll your eyes. Obviously you have been in a lush enough career that you feel cofortable being afforded the undue right to sit around in a chair and roll your eyes, sir.

I just don't want to deploy with an out of shape fatbody next to me. Alot has changed in recent years.

And, a reg is a reg. If Airmen can't take their fitness serious enough to master it - then they are not a whole-person professional Airman who pursues excellence and should be dealt with accordingly. I think the AAFES Burger King may be hiring. Go roll your eyes over there!

[ART]

Don't agree that I am the problem, Rastaman --- BUT, by all means, continue to roll your eyes. Obviously you have been in a lush enough career that you feel cofortable being afforded the undue right to sit around in a chair and roll your eyes, sir.

I just don't want to deploy with an out of shape fatbody next to me. Alot has changed in recent years.

And, a reg is a reg. If Airmen can't take their fitness serious enough to master it - then they are not a whole-person professional Airman who pursues excellence and should be dealt with accordingly. I think the AAFES Burger King may be hiring. Go roll your eyes over there!

You should really look at this website... www.goarmy.com

oh...and the standard is 75 points, not "master it"

I hope to God you don't have any authority over anyone in the USAF.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[MaintChief]

Don't agree that I am the problem, Rastaman --- BUT, by all means, continue to roll your eyes. Obviously you have been in a lush enough career that you feel cofortable being afforded the undue right to sit around in a chair and roll your eyes, sir.

I just don't want to deploy with an out of shape fatbody next to me. Alot has changed in recent years.

And, a reg is a reg. If Airmen can't take their fitness serious enough to master it - then they are not a whole-person professional Airman who pursues excellence and should be dealt with accordingly. I think the AAFES Burger King may be hiring. Go roll your eyes over there!

Really? It's an Air Force INSTRUCTION, not a regulation. Learn the difference. .And we actually kicked serious ass without a mandatory Army-wannabe PT program. As many have already stated, there needs to be some perspective. People such as you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Last time I looked we were generating all the sorties required to maintain support of the AOR Air Tasking Order. You do know what that is, right? It is the PRIMARY reason that the USAF has for being...generating sorties to put iron or eyes on targets. Not to run around the flag-pole and maintain a 32 inch waist.

[Combat correspondent]

I hope to God you don't have any authority over anyone in the USAF.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Sorry to say, Art, that I do...and, as you imagine, my troops and I are not friends. Still, they respect what I say and meet or exceed standards - they strive to earn a 4 or 5 on their EPRs. And, low and behold, not a single one is a fatbody because we PT together every morning. And, every second Monday we have a Blues uniform inspection and opposite Tuesdays we do cammies. They all look sharp, are disciplined and I have no doubt they are an AF role model every time they leave the office.

How about you? Are you committed to any level of standards or discipline or just pride yourself in your ability to roll your eyes?

[Combat correspondent]

... the PRIMARY reason that the USAF has for being...generating sorties to put iron or eyes on targets. Not to run around the flag-pole and maintain a 32 inch waist.

Sorry Chief to offend you as you are a maintainer - I have the highest level of respect for enlisted maintainers. Still, it is a well known fact that fit people do not get sick as much, are more motivated and preform better --- that being said, would you prefer a sick fatbody on your maintenance line or a slender, fit go-getter who never misses a day of work because he/she is healthy?

As for the waist, 32" would be a nice standard for many. I am only 5'11" (quite short), so I keep my waist at about 30.5"

[Combat correspondent]

To piggy back on myself, I believe so much in the fit progrem that I started a similar thread to this several months ago. In my thread, "Should we target and embarass FAT Airmen?" here is what I said:

I know what you are all thinking...here's CC with another whacko thread But, listen for a second and let me cite you an example of a situation I encountered at home station and let me know your feelings on it.

We were having a Group CoC ceremony and our own base newspaper plus many local off-base reporters were due to come cover the event as the outgoing group CC was very popular in the community.

I got there early - before media to get a feel for the situation and scope things out. Well, there was a Flight formed up and a First Sergeant was standing proud in front. This formation, by their location alone, will end up being prominent in any photos the media took as they were located just off the flank of the ceremony - right in front of the "press box."

In the element nearest the press, directly up front, was a Major who was performing "a stress test on his BDU buttons" to put it nicely. Basically, he was a real porker. I thought to myself, "this is not the guy we want showing up in the foreground of the base paper's photos and all the local paper's photos - not the "ROLE MODEL" for the USAF we want portrayed.

Anyways, I tactfully got the First Sergeant away from the Flight and asked him to remove the Major from the flight as we can’t have him showing up in the papers (then I had to explain why---which is another issue in itself – he should know why!!!) Anyways, he wasn’t willing to call the Major out on being a fat @ss and get him out of the formation so I insisted he talk to his Commander and have him do it as we simply CANNOT have the porker in the photo (Makes me wonder why the dude is even in the military ---- again, another issue in itself!!!)

Again, he refused. I told him that we’ll just have to move the “press box” to the other side because I am not letting the porker represent our AF on and off base in photos --- no way! In PA, we often have to monitor such things – it’s kind of “our job.”

Well, I moved the little wooden platform that was the “press box” to the other side and his Commander, the LtCol saw me do it. He asked why because now his guys won’t be in the photo – the ceremony wasn’t about his d@mn guys to begin with --- again, another issue!!!

I explained to him why and he moved Maj. Porky Pig to the left element in the rear. This made the formation not truly sized but got the fat @ss out of the photos which made my job. We’ll, after this whole scenario, here is my question to you all:

Why would so many people dance on glass for the fat porker instead of telling him, “Hey sir, I’m sorry but you’re fat and can’t be in this formation?”

Would he like it? No. Does it matter? No. Regs are regs and maybe that prodding would make his fat @ss hit a treadmill or something….I’m just saying….

ONE MORE EXAMPLE OF HOW OUR AIR FORCE FATBODIES REPRESENT US WELL! Maybe this fatbody could put iron on target - fine....still, get his @ss out of the military formation.

[VFFSSGT]

I have seen this mentioned a few times and know that our instructions use to be regulations.... They both direct you to comply with a standard do they not? So, what is the difference?

[Combat correspondent]

I have seen this mentioned a few times and know that our instructions use to be regulations.... They both direct you to comply with a standard do they not? So, what is the difference?

Thank you VFFSSGT! It seems ironic to quickly call out word errors or omissions when there is a serious subject at hand.

[VFFSSGT]

It was a serious question to those that find the two so different because I do not get where they are coming from or how they are different. Wasn't around for "regulations."

A side note; no one should be running around saying everyone should be exceeding X standard... This is another flawed mentality among many in the Air Force (typically seen among commanders and/or officers) - and my guess is because it would "look very good" on an OPR for a flight or squadron to be all above 90... This type of pressure in general is typically what leads to "pencil-whipping." Except for those few that refuse to conform and want to slip through the cracks, then they just talk someone into sliding the numbers a little for them. There is a standard and that is the minimum the Air Force will accept. Everyone is different and has there own areas they exceed in. No one is an all star performer in every area. This is why we have an EPR (if it weren't corrupt)... 3 = minimum standard aka average. 4 = a little about average (maybe 80+) and 5 = exceptional or whatever the new catch phrase is on it (maybe 90 and above). Now the overall rating should be an "average" of all performance areas...but I think you get the point I am making, hopefully.

Personally, I am quite satisfied with my consistent 83ish since the inception of the program and have no desire to increase it because I am not an avid runner. But, I do take quite a bid of pride in technical knowledge and ability. There are many other areas I like to perform exceptional in as well as other areas I like to be average in... But not every one should be or can be realistically exceptional in every performance area. But, does my 83 mean I am not "fit?" Personally, I am fit and quite happy with my fitness level.

[MaintChief]

Sorry Chief to offend you as you are a maintainer - I have the highest level of respect for enlisted maintainers. Still, it is a well known fact that fit people do not get sick as much, are more motivated and preform better --- that being said, would you prefer a sick fatbody on your maintenance line or a slender, fit go-getter who never misses a day of work because he/she is healthy?

As for the waist, 32" would be a nice standard for many. I am only 5'11" (quite short), so I keep my waist at about 30.5"
I want somebody present who can do the job and not be at the clinic due to the injuries they received at the gym or playing intramurals. Fact...the skinny guys can't move Hobarts by themselves. The fatbodies can. Fact...the skinny guys don't have endurance, the fatbodies do. This is based on direct observation of multiple flighlines over a 27 year period. Fact...your appearance has NOTHING to do with your ability to take care of business. Back in SAC we never flew nukes by accident and we damn sure didn't fail an NSI that we knew was coming. Yet we only had to run 1.5 miles once a year. Once again, focusing on appearance and not performance is biting us in the ass.

As for the difference between a regulation and an instruction....a regulation was directive in nature and told you how you would do something, no ifs, ands, or buts. An instruction, when first implemented, left it up to the person to interpret how to do the task after giving the intent. Later on the statement was added to the front stating that the instruction was "directive" in nature but still left loopholes that you can drive a tank through. That usually wasn't the case with regulations.

[ART]

I want somebody present who can do the job and not be at the clinic due to the injuries they received at the gym or playing intramurals. Fact...the skinny guys can't move Hobarts by themselves. The fatbodies can. Fact...the skinny guys don't have endurance, the fatbodies do. This is based on direct observation of multiple flighlines over a 27 year period. Fact...your appearance has NOTHING to do with your ability to take care of business. Back in SAC we never flew nukes by accident and we damn sure didn't fail an NSI that we knew was coming. Yet we only had to run 1.5 miles once a year. Once again, focusing on appearance and not performance is biting us in the ass.

As for the difference between a regulation and an instruction....a regulation was directive in nature and told you how you would do something, no ifs, ands, or buts. An instruction, when first implemented, left it up to the person to interpret how to do the task after giving the intent. Later on the statement was added to the front stating that the instruction was "directive" in nature but still left loopholes that you can drive a tank through. That usually wasn't the case with regulations.

Great post, Chief.

Some of these kids have tough time realizing that the USAF was here long before they were.

And CC? Your troops will grow to resent you for your iron fisted, over the top enforcement of the AFI's. If you as a supervisor are unable to inspect your troops' uniforms without a bi-weekly open ranks inspection, then it's high time you learned how.

[VFFSSGT]

As for the difference between a regulation and an instruction....a regulation was directive in nature and told you how you would do something, no ifs, ands, or buts. An instruction, when first implemented, left it up to the person to interpret how to do the task after giving the intent. Later on the statement was added to the front stating that the instruction was "directive" in nature but still left loopholes that you can drive a tank through. That usually wasn't the case with regulations.

Well, that's an easy fix... :rolleyes: Let's go back to regulations because the tank driving definitely is not working for many reasons.

Curious though, what spiked the change from regulations to instructions when regulations were apparently effective?

[MaintChief]

Well, that's an easy fix... :rolleyes: Let's go back to regulations because the tank driving definitely is not working for many reasons.

Curious though, what spiked the change from regulations to instructions when regulations were apparently effective?

General Merrill (I'm a fighter God) McPeak bears the responsibility for starting the ball rolling on screwing up the USAF. It was under his watch that we went to Instructions, TQM, "the Year of Training", mandatory 7-level schools for all AFSC's, etc. That asshole did more to screw up the USAF than anyone since.

[VFFSSGT]

General Merrill (I'm a fighter God) McPeak bears the responsibility for starting the ball rolling on screwing up the USAF. It was under his watch that we went to Instructions, TQM, "the Year of Training", mandatory 7-level schools for all AFSC's, etc. That asshole did more to screw up the USAF than anyone since.

That one sounds familiar...the same guy that condemned Bush and advises Obama...

If regulations were more effective what is the hold up to changing it back?

[The Opinionated One]

It is funny that this "Fit to Fight" audit did not include the lack of actual medical (aka Physical) review to make sure the guy doing the 9 minute 1.5 run doesn't blow up his heart at the end. The PHA process is a joke and has no medical benifit at all. PT without thorough medical reviews is like throwing babies out with bath water. The baby is clean but...

Silly AF promoting more silliness.

[Capt Alfredo]

It is funny that this "Fit to Fight" audit did not include the lack of actual medical (aka Physical) review to make sure the guy doing the 9 minute 1.5 run doesn't blow up his heart at the end. The PHA process is a joke and has no medical benifit at all. PT without thorough medical reviews is like throwing babies out with bath water. The baby is clean but...

Silly AF promoting more silliness.

Good point. Filling out a questionnaire online and then having an Airman ask questions about using a condom and drinking does not equal a real physical.

[MaintChief]

That one sounds familiar...the same guy that condemned Bush and advises Obama...

If regulations were more effective what is the hold up to changing it back?

You have to remember that there are fewer and fewer of us old farts left on active duty that remember the "old" way of doing business. Hell, I hit 20 years back in 2001. The next generation (post GWI) starts retiring in 2011. If you never knew the "old" ways then you would never have missed them. But to be honest, I don't know. I do know that the new 36-2903 will be written much more directive in nature. We'll see.

[VFFSSGT]

You have to remember that there are fewer and fewer of us old farts left on active duty that remember the "old" way of doing business. Hell, I hit 20 years back in 2001. The next generation (post GWI) starts retiring in 2011. If you never knew the "old" ways then you would never have missed them. But to be honest, I don't know. I do know that the new 36-2903 will be written much more directive in nature. We'll see.

WOW! That means when you came in the Air Force, I came in the world... :D

I, and others, may not miss it but I think quite a few us realize and know the provision allowing commander's discretion is not working...along with other programs... But instead of us playing trial and error later, I do believe many of you "old farts" would be beneficial in providing potential solutions that have been in place before and are known to work...

I also know if we don't get good sound changes made for the better before all of you "old farts" retire, it is only going to continue down hill and become even harder to make changes. And while many people live putting problems off to someone else (not saying you do) those people need to realize it will be the same Air Force protecting you when you retire/separate from the Air Force.

[CrustySMSgt]

Curious though, what spiked the change from regulations to instructions when regulations were apparently effective?

The end of the Cold War, QUALITY, the death of SAC and the birth of the "corperate AF" :mad:

[AF Chief]

I believe we need to try and follow the rules of the Fit Program (allowing members to do PT on duty time). But, I am a realistic. I know it would be almost impossible for SFS, Maintenance, and a few other AFSCS. I am a desk jockey right now and I do PT my folks at 0645 three times a day. I have zero failures for PT. But, prior to me arriving there were many. But, I am in a job that I have that luxury of being able to do PT 3 times a day. I worked in Maintenance (not the career field) squadron for 7 years straight on 2 diff bases and it was tough to get away to do PT. I found time to do it on my own, but organized...no. I think that it boils down to personal responsibility. Its YOUR responsibility to be in shape. If you are content with being heavy, barely passing that PT test (or fail), then thats on YOU. I am so sick and tired of the AF babysitting GROWN men and women. I don't get paid to baby-sit. Sometimes I feel like I have 30-230 kids (depending on the diff jobs I have worked) vs. the natural 3 kids borne by my wife. And its about a person actually having the motivation to do PT. I have enlisted personnel that have done PT with me for almost 2 years. You would think their times would improve on the run. But, 1/2 of them...no. I can make them run, but its up to them to want to improve. Its bad when a 43 old, 195 lb man with knee and back problems beat someone 1/2 his age. My PT run went from a 11:53 to a 10:47 in 1 year...maxing out push ups and sit ups. I am not running distance runs. It a Personal Choice. Its hard to motivate people to do this.

[Measure Man]

Curious though, what spiked the change from regulations to instructions when regulations were apparently effective?

Right..what they said.

This was a TQM initiative...under the philosophy that...if we just tell them what needs to be done, Airmen in the field will find the most efficient ways of doing the job.

If we tell them exactly how to do the job as well...then there is no room for innovation in the field.

...but slowly AFIs have crept to be what AFRs were anyway...because someone would get a UCI...and the inspector didn't like the way the unit was doing it, but didn't have the written directives to write them up.

AFRs were not any better than the current AFIs...the "good old days" were just the "old days" ;)

[technomage1]

I believe we need to try and follow the rules of the Fit Program (allowing members to do PT on duty time). But, I am a realistic. I know it would be almost impossible for SFS, Maintenance, and a few other AFSCS.

Is it unrealistic entirely or just unrealistic with our current manning? Would more manning allow this?

Where I'm going with this is we need to change our mindset. PT is a part of our job.

[MACHINE666]

Yah know Combat Correspondent, perhaps to a certain point I can admire your zeal for fitness, but even after 5+ pages of you brow-beating the other people, you're making yourself look like an ass while damaging your support for making PT more stringent. Forget about it already.

I've seen the PT test program come full circle. When I came in we were still running, but then phased it out for the bike test, and now back to running once again. When I joined the military, it was about a year shy of Gulf War Part 1 and like another poster commented, we won that war just fine. "Morale" and the "PT Program" were about as far as East and West meeting one another back then and is no different now. We won that war with people who were 'out of shape' by today's standards, no differently than we have with any previous conflict that was unhampered by politics in our brief history.

Sounds like to me you're having internal issues with your new found Air Force identity - you were prior Marines, no? Or do you wish to be a Marine but don't have the stones to join them? I think in reality you're just one of these types who toes the company line and whatever the big dog is saying you're just another "Yes Man" wanting to be heard above the rest, in hopes of getting promoted quicker. Am I way off the mark on this one, or am I right? You tell me.

In the mean time, the PT test is fine the way it is. I don't like it - I think it's crap personally, but overall it does what our leadership wants it to do - and that's to make us look prettier for the public. You will always have people who are skinny and in shape, and fat and in shape, and then you will have people who are skinny and out of shape, and then fat and out of shape, and that's what the PT program and 99% of all you ooh-rah jack-holes fail to distinguish. Ultimately what matters is whether or not you can drive a convoy and return fire if your vehicle comes under attack. I can tell you from real world experiences as a former paramedic, you will always have manpower available to move bodies, sand bags, and gear as necessary and whenever available - very rarely will you ever do it alone. Even the strongest reach their physical limits no matter how tough they are.

Just do us all a favor and when you're done pleasuring yourself to AFI 10-248, please use the pages to clean up for the next half-wit who comes here looking to insult our intelligence with the same banter, so he won't slip on the puddle of mess you leave behind.

[CMSBROWN]

I'll go WAY out on a limb here - how about extending the work day to minimum of 10-12 hours for ALL Airmen?????

Easy enough fix.

Here would be the "typical" dayshift:

0530 - report for mandatory PT M-F
0530-0630 - PT your @ss off until you almost vomit
0630-0730 - Personal time - get shower, change, bkfst...whatever!
0730 - get your @ss to work and not a minute late
0730 - mandatory formation w/ briefing and open ranks
0740-1630 - work your @ss off
1630 - mandatory retriet ceremony for portion of base, others continue to work
1730 - day shift is over, go home!

The shift could be varied for all shifts and AFSCs.

I know, its a novel concept, right! What do you know, we could do a full day of work, build comraderie and fit fitness in all in every day. Can't wait until I become the CMSAF!


AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH The gold old days in the Army....I sure do miss them....but I still at 44 score in the mid 80's on my PT test!

[CMSBROWN]

Tens? Sure, I'd be down with that. I pretty much work that anyway, so getting PT during the ten would be gravy. We do formal unit PT twice a week as it is, so an extra three days would be great. Count me in.

And mix it up like we do in our squadron.

We do warm up/stretching exercises. Some push ups, crunches and then!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tackle football in MOPP4. Basketball or Combat Dodge ball with your IBA and ACH on.

The airmen will have a blast....trust me...my guys beg me to leave the MOPP4...but for sweating your ace off safety reasons we take it off after about an hour. HOOAH!

[CMSBROWN]

Not sure Pueblo - ask SMEG! By the way, does OSI drop bombs??? No, well then (according to SMEG), OSI doesn't belong "outside the wire."

Just have OSI invest in binoculars and guard towers and they can do their jobs from "up there." Funny that he actually thinks like that. Hell, in Vietnam Airmen were consistenlty outside the wire. I'm not sure where this flowery view of AF Missions came from. Likely they came from CMSAF Campanale - the @-hole who thought Airmen need single dorm rooms, no room mates and the other array of lush bullcr@p that spoils our Airmen to the bone!


Contrary to popular belief...OSI has a mission outside the wire..gathering intel on those a-holes bombing our bases and planting IED's along routes and counter-terrorism. When I was the base chief for an airbase in Iraq....we had a sharp ass OSI detachment that did an awesome job of knowing who was doing what and built a great relationship with the Iraqi Police and Army. We had been rocketed like clock work...OSI gathered the intel and knew which durka durkas were responsible. We passed the info to the ARMY division there with us and they said....we need more sources...well we got rocketed again and the rocket landed next to the gym which happened to have the Command Sergeant Major in it at the time..and one of the ARMY MRAPS was hit by an IED...I told the CSM that this was BullSh!T....OSI knows who is doing it...the intel has been confirmed..get those fuggers! They ran it through Army S-3 again and asked me if snipers would be sufficient for now watching the locations the a-holes lived...I was like WTF do it....whack them if they get caught carrying any rockets, bomb making material, etc....well two days go by and they had eyes on the a-holes....but no green light....that night at O'dark-early they raid the houses and capture the a-holes for questioning and find all kinds of crappola in the houses....the a-holes confessed to the rocket attacks and IED's with the help of the Iraqi Police interrogation. :eek:

We didn't get rocketed for a month after that..IED attacks were down 75% in our town. OSI are pains in the but back at the rear but in the AOR....they play an integral part..

Just my .02 centavos!

[CMSBROWN]

Now THAT, my friend, is some funny shit. All that will do is piss off the people who are already in and discourage others from joining.

Tell ya what, join the USMC or the Army. Your attitude isn't a good fit for the USAF.

ART...your response make me laugh as well. :)

What I find humorous is people come up with ideas and some balk at the idea and do nothing but discredit the person(s).

I have a great idea....let the Air Force buy everyone a Wii Fit to do at home so those tubby tubbies who dont have time cause I ACTUALLY WORK my 10-12 days..(MINUS my 5-10.. 20minute smoke breaks and my hour and a half lunch)..and do a fun exercise program at their own pace...and you can even get your families involved as well. :eek:

Now that is a great idea!

[CMSBROWN]

Sorry to say, Art, that I do...and, as you imagine, my troops and I are not friends. Still, they respect what I say and meet or exceed standards - they strive to earn a 4 or 5 on their EPRs. And, low and behold, not a single one is a fatbody because we PT together every morning. And, every second Monday we have a Blues uniform inspection and opposite Tuesdays we do cammies. They all look sharp, are disciplined and I have no doubt they are an AF role model every time they leave the office.

OUTSTANDING! You almost sound like we have the same squadron!

[CMSBROWN]

Really? It's an Air Force INSTRUCTION, not a regulation.

Lets not argue symantics....REGULATIONS were replaced by INSTRUCTIONS! :)

I still say Chow Hall! :)

[CMSBROWN]

You have to remember that there are fewer and fewer of us old farts left on active duty that remember the "old" way of doing business. Hell, I hit 20 years back in 2001. The next generation (post GWI) starts retiring in 2011. If you never knew the "old" ways then you would never have missed them. But to be honest, I don't know. I do know that the new 36-2903 will be written much more directive in nature. We'll see.


This instruction implements Department of Defense Instruction (DoDI) 1334.1, Wearing of the Uniform,
26 October 2005, Department of Defense Directive (DoDD) 1300.17, Accommodation of Religious Practices
Within the Military Services, 3 February 1988; and Air Force Policy Directive 36-29, Military Standards.
It applies to all active duty Air Force members, members of the United States Air Force Reserve
(USAFR), and members of the Air National Guard (ANG). It directs the wear of uniforms, insignias,
awards and decorations. Describes minimum standards of personal appearance of Air Force members.
Failure to observe the prohibitions and mandatory provisions of this instruction to include Table 2.5.
regarding tattoos/brands/body piercing by active duty Air Force members; USAFR members on active
duty or inactive for training; ANG members in Federal service, is a violation of Article 92, Uniform Code
of Military Justice (UCMJ). Violations of these provisions can be prosecuted under Article 92 of the
UCMJ, as well as any other applicable articles of the UCMJ, when appropriate. The Commander, Military
Personnel Flight (MPF) assigns an office within the Customer Support Section to be the Office of Primary
Responsibility (OPR) for this instruction. Refer to Attachment 1 for a Glossary. Authorized
supplements to this instruction and requests for uniform changes will be processed in accordance with
Chapter 7, Uniform Changes and Supplements.

Can't get anymore direct than that....:)

[CMSBROWN]

I believe we need to try and follow the rules of the Fit Program (allowing members to do PT on duty time). But, I am a realistic. I know it would be almost impossible for SFS, Maintenance, and a few other AFSCS. I am a desk jockey right now and I do PT my folks at 0645 three times a day. I have zero failures for PT. But, prior to me arriving there were many. But, I am in a job that I have that luxury of being able to do PT 3 times a day. I worked in Maintenance (not the career field) squadron for 7 years straight on 2 diff bases and it was tough to get away to do PT. I found time to do it on my own, but organized...no. I think that it boils down to personal responsibility. Its YOUR responsibility to be in shape. If you are content with being heavy, barely passing that PT test (or fail), then thats on YOU. I am so sick and tired of the AF babysitting GROWN men and women. I don't get paid to baby-sit. Sometimes I feel like I have 30-230 kids (depending on the diff jobs I have worked) vs. the natural 3 kids borne by my wife. And its about a person actually having the motivation to do PT. I have enlisted personnel that have done PT with me for almost 2 years. You would think their times would improve on the run. But, 1/2 of them...no. I can make them run, but its up to them to want to improve. Its bad when a 43 old, 195 lb man with knee and back problems beat someone 1/2 his age. My PT run went from a 11:53 to a 10:47 in 1 year...maxing out push ups and sit ups. I am not running distance runs. It a Personal Choice. Its hard to motivate people to do this.


OUT FREAKIN STANDING POST CHIEF! HOOAH! Well said!

[Measure Man]

I am a desk jockey right now and I do PT my folks at 0645 three times a day. I have zero failures for PT. But, prior to me arriving there were many. But, I am in a job that I have that luxury of being able to do PT 3 times a day.

I"m all for the fit program...and think units must be forced to make time for it as "part OF the job"...

...but three times a day is a little ridiculous ;)

[CMSBROWN]

I"m all for the fit program...and think units must be forced to make time for it as "part OF the job"...

...but three times a day is a little ridiculous ;)

That is a job in itself. I think he meant 3 times a week...

I agree...there should be time put aside for to commit to atleast 1 hour three times a week.

[fenway]

An Air Force-wide audit found the service’s fitness program is failing to keep airmen fit year-round.

The fitness program “did not effectively promote a healthy lifestyle,” and unit commanders did not give airmen enough time to work out while not cracking down on airmen who failed PT tests, according to a December report released by the Air Force Audit Agency.

The agency found 35 percent of the airmen it reviewed had gained a significant amount of weight after their annual PT test, leading to the conclusion that the fitness program promoted a “fit to test” culture — not the “fit to fight” culture Air Force leaders had hoped for.

Of the 321 airmen whose PT tests the agency reviewed, 111 gained an average of nine pounds just 60 days after completing their PT test, according to the report. At RAF Lakenheath, England, nine out of 23 airmen reviewed gained an average of 15 pounds.

Chief Master Sgt. of the Air Force Rodney McKinley requested the audit, which was done in 2007 and 2008 at 50 units across the Air Force.

At the 50 units the auditors visited, 16 did not have a written policy that allowed time for group fitness activities or didn’t give airmen time during duty hours to work out.

Airmen who failed the PT test rarely were punished. Only 20 percent of airmen who failed the PT test two or more times consecutively had met a fitness review panel, and 72 percent of those airmen avoided administrative action.

One airman at Edwards Air Force Base, Calif., failed the PT test 12 straight times “without meeting a fitness review panel or receiving any administrative action,” according to the report.

Auditors also found problems with the airmen administering the PT test — especially the waist measurement portion.

The audit agency found many airmen were not as trim as their tests reflected when auditors compared waist measurement results from one year to another. With auditors monitoring the latest fitness tests, 17 percent of airmen had bigger waists without gaining any weight.

A waist measurement for one airman at Barksdale Air Force Base, Calif., went up five inches from the previous year, but curiously, he lost six pounds over that same year.

In response to the audit, Pacific Air Forces Commander Gen. Howie Chandler standardized who will administer the PT test in December, announcing all PT tests will be issued in PacAF by base health and wellness center staff members.

[fenway]

It seems commanders are told top get people fit but then not given resources to do that. That is why they don't get tough?

[Combat correspondent]

Sounds like to me you're having internal issues with your new found Air Force identity - you were prior Marines, no? Or do you wish to be a Marine but don't have the stones to join them? I think in reality you're just one of these types who toes the company line and whatever the big dog is saying you're just another "Yes Man" wanting to be heard above the rest, in hopes of getting promoted quicker. Am I way off the mark on this one, or am I right? You tell me.

Not off the mark on one point, I am prior Marine. But that means nothing. CMS Brown is prior Army - so what! We both (correct me if I am wrong Chief) love the AF and only have the AF's best intentions in mind.

I am not seeking promotion by this thread - this thread does not appear on my EPR, or constitute a bullet, after all. Do you claim it on your performance report, sir?

As I said before, it is not me ---- this train has left the station - I'd suggest getting on board before it runs you over.

Semper Fidelis and now excuse me as I have to kiss more ass and (I guess) impress my supervisor's by replying to other threads....rolling my eyes.

[BTDTNM]

This is what's wrong with the Air Force today. Preoccupation with minutia. Is PT the mission? Is what color socks I have on the mission? Lead on heads. That's the mission.

[Combat correspondent]

This is what's wrong with the Air Force today. Preoccupation with minutia. Is PT the mission? Is what color socks I have on the mission? Lead on heads. That's the mission.

Lead on heads is indeed the mission, my friend. However, when you walk into MacDonalds or Burger King and see the thuggish-ruggish clerk or the guy that looks like a carnival reject, would you trust him to pilot the Enola Gay and drop ordinance over Hiroshima? I think not.... it all boils down to standards and what infractions you allow. I allow none - I hope you develop that mind set. Really, the only way you can fully trust someone to fully do their respective job unsupervised in a deployed environment is if they embody the Core Values. And, if they truly embody the Core Values, then they would not wear the wrong socks in their PT gear - thanks for proving my point, my friend.

[MACHINE666]

Not off the mark on one point, I am prior Marine. But that means nothing. CMS Brown is prior Army - so what! We both (correct me if I am wrong Chief) love the AF and only have the AF's best intentions in mind.

I am not seeking promotion by this thread - this thread does not appear on my EPR, or constitute a bullet, after all. Do you claim it on your performance report, sir?

As I said before, it is not me ---- this train has left the station - I'd suggest getting on board before it runs you over.

Semper Fidelis and now excuse me as I have to kiss more ass and (I guess) impress my supervisor's by replying to other threads....rolling my eyes.

Well from what it sounds like you know nothing about the Air Force culture and its people, but instead are relying on your time in the Marines to some how justify your misplaced and misguided enthusiasm. So let's put the shoe on the other foot then - why leave the Marines if you're that ate up with your prior identity still? The Air Force culture is specifically alot more laid back than the other branches and for the most part has traditionally always been that way, but it seems the last 4-5 years we're experiencing an identity crisis because of people like you and Chief Brown pushing this whole "ooh-rah" mentality.

No thanks. I joined the Air Force specifically BECAUSE it wasn't the stereotypical dumb jock/throw myself on a grenade mentality you see exhibited by so many Army and Marine grunts. Just go over to their message threads if you want to refute my claim.

I like having a 9 - 5 job plus weekends off. I like being able to pursue a college degree on my off-duty time and developing past the junior high "I'm gonna kick your ass if you disagree with me" stage I see so many people in the military exhibit. I could honestly care less about some battle that happened 500 years ago unless I am getting a grade on the paper I am writing on it, and would rather spend my time reading Playstation Magazine or watch Comedy Central than suffer through some boring doctrine on military heritage. I'd rather play Nintendo or hang out with friends and go places than spend my time at the gym like some muscle-head. I've never been athletic and never will be, and have developed permanent injuries as a result of this stupid PT program. At least I'll be able to get a shiny nickle from the VA if I play my cards right when filling out the paperwork.

When the Air Force had its Blue to Green program earlier this decade, you didn't see a mass exodus of blue-suiters join the Army and try to convert their culture to ours. They knew it was pointless and that going Army they were essentially "dumbing-down" since anybody can be a trigger puller and drive a truck. I think Method Man or someone phrased it best when he said "Because the Air Force is trying to be more military, it's actually making it worse" and that is the bottom line to the majority of problems we've been experiencing overall.

So why did you leave the Marines if you're still screaming "Semper Fi"? You need to do an about face and go back to where you came from if you think we're going to do the same. We never have and we never will, aside from the TAC-P and Pararescue guys but they're less than 1% of the Air Force as we know it. Your typical blue-suiter will always be some socially inept geek from Revenge of the Nerds or some pampered princess/snotty frat boy type who has never had to work a real day in their lives, but want to have bragging rights for their drinking buddies and whatever one-night stands they meet on a TDY or on Spring Break. I've seen it my entire career since it's the quality of people we attract. Just about everyone here can agree with that observation, I think.

[MACHINE666]

Lead on heads is indeed the mission, my friend. However, when you walk into MacDonalds or Burger King and see the thuggish-ruggish clerk or the guy that looks like a carnival reject, would you trust him to pilot the Enola Gay and drop ordinance over Hiroshima? I think not.... it all boils down to standards and what infractions you allow. I allow none - I hope you develop that mind set. Really, the only way you can fully trust someone to fully do their respective job unsupervised in a deployed environment is if they embody the Core Values. And, if they truly embody the Core Values, then they would not wear the wrong socks in their PT gear - thanks for proving my point, my friend.


Well the only difference is the thug at Burger King might get away with robbing the cash register of 20 dollars, while you know the Air Force officer will do a much better job wearing a tie with his blues when he goes to cheat the government thousands of dollars on his housing allowance.

But usually those "thuggish" types are better at killing people if I can match my faulty logic with your faulty logic. I mean we all know that appearances are never deceptive, and that what you see is what you get.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Smeghead]

Well from what it sounds like you know nothing about the Air Force culture and its people, but instead are relying on your time in the Marines to some how justify your misplaced and misguided enthusiasm. So let's put the shoe on the other foot then - why leave the Marines if you're that ate up with your prior identity still? The Air Force culture is specifically alot more laid back than the other branches and for the most part has traditionally always been that way, but it seems the last 4-5 years we're experiencing an identity crisis because of people like you and Chief Brown pushing this whole "ooh-rah" mentality.

No thanks. I joined the Air Force specifically BECAUSE it wasn't the stereotypical dumb jock/throw myself on a grenade mentality you see exhibited by so many Army and Marine grunts. Just go over to their message threads if you want to refute my claim.

I like having a 9 - 5 job plus weekends off. I like being able to pursue a college degree on my off-duty time and developing past the junior high "I'm gonna kick your ass if you disagree with me" stage I see so many people in the military exhibit. I could honestly care less about some battle that happened 500 years ago unless I am getting a grade on the paper I am writing on it, and would rather spend my time reading Playstation Magazine or watch Comedy Central than suffer through some boring doctrine on military heritage. I'd rather play Nintendo or hang out with friends and go places than spend my time at the gym like some muscle-head. I've never been athletic and never will be, and have developed permanent injuries as a result of this stupid PT program. At least I'll be able to get a shiny nickle from the VA if I play my cards right when filling out the paperwork.

When the Air Force had its Blue to Green program earlier this decade, you didn't see a mass exodus of blue-suiters join the Army and try to convert their culture to ours. They knew it was pointless and that going Army they were essentially "dumbing-down" since anybody can be a trigger puller and drive a truck. I think Method Man or someone phrased it best when he said "Because the Air Force is trying to be more military, it's actually making it worse" and that is the bottom line to the majority of problems we've been experiencing overall.

So why did you leave the Marines if you're still screaming "Semper Fi"? You need to do an about face and go back to where you came from if you think we're going to do the same. We never have and we never will, aside from the TAC-P and Pararescue guys but they're less than 1% of the Air Force as we know it. Your typical blue-suiter will always be some socially inept geek from Revenge of the Nerds or some pampered princess/snotty frat boy type who has never had to work a real day in their lives, but want to have bragging rights for their drinking buddies and whatever one-night stands they meet on a TDY or on Spring Break. I've seen it my entire career since it's the quality of people we attract. Just about everyone here can agree with that observation, I think.

/Applaud
/Bow
Rock on, Machine!

[Combat correspondent]

/Applaud
/Bow
Rock on, Machine!

I disagree with both of you - the culture IS changing and the Air Force IS becoming increasingly "ooh-rah" in nature. This point is arguable but I believe most will find it IS indeed changing. So, its not my mentality out of whack with the Air Forces current climate (becoming its culture), it is yours, my friend.

[Smeghead]

Really, the only way you can fully trust someone to fully do their respective job unsupervised in a deployed environment is if they embody the Core Values.

We can't even get senior leadership to do that.

[Rastaman]

Lead on heads is indeed the mission, my friend. However, when you walk into MacDonalds or Burger King and see the thuggish-ruggish clerk or the guy that looks like a carnival reject, would you trust him to pilot the Enola Gay and drop ordinance over Hiroshima? I think not.... it all boils down to standards and what infractions you allow. I allow none - I hope you develop that mind set. Really, the only way you can fully trust someone to fully do their respective job unsupervised in a deployed environment is if they embody the Core Values. And, if they truly embody the Core Values, then they would not wear the wrong socks in their PT gear - thanks for proving my point, my friend.

The geniuses on Wall Street that got the country into the mess it's in--I'm sure most of them looked fit and sharp in their $1500 Italian suits--but it didn't have one iota to do with their values or job performance.

Let me try and make the point one more time: We had an effective and FIT Air Force long before the PT program came on board. The PT program will NOT improve the level of compliance with the Core Values or raise anyone's job peformance. The PT program will, if followed correctly, get people fit. That's it. No more, no less.

[CMSBROWN]

Well from what it sounds like you know nothing about the Air Force culture and its people, but instead are relying on your time in the Marines to some how justify your misplaced and misguided enthusiasm. So let's put the shoe on the other foot then - why leave the Marines if you're that ate up with your prior identity still? The Air Force culture is specifically alot more laid back than the other branches and for the most part has traditionally always been that way, but it seems the last 4-5 years we're experiencing an identity crisis because of people like you and Chief Brown pushing this whole "ooh-rah" mentality.

Sunshine I am not pushing anything on you! I am telling you how I am and how my squadron of cops are. I am passing on ideas on how to make PT more enjoyable for those who just might have any kind of organized PT program instead of doing the typical 1.5 mile run with a push up and sit up finish. . Do what you want.....do what your body wills you to do.

We cops stay in shape because our mission is to go to an AIRBASE in a location were there are bad guys. We just might have to fight them and we just might have to scuffle with them. It takes 3miles of running to maintain your endurance for fighting for 1 minute. Most hand to hand fighting lasts 20-30 seconds if you are better than the other guy. But then again you probably never had to shoot someone, or much less fight someone with your hands who wanted to KILL you...not just give you a bloody nose. So again Machine...I emplore you....Do what you want and do what your body wills you to do

I like having a 9 - 5 job plus weekends off. I like being able to pursue a college degree on my off-duty time and developing past the junior high "I'm gonna kick your ass if you disagree with me" stage I see so many people in the military exhibit. I could honestly care less about some battle that happened 500 years ago unless I am getting a grade on the paper I am writing on it, and would

rather spend my time reading Playstation Magazine or watch Comedy Central than suffer through some boring doctrine on military heritage. I'd rather play Nintendo or hang out with friends and go places than spend my time at the gym like some muscle-head.

Good for you....I have a PS3 and have fun playing them too....Got the New CoD5....not a bad game.

I've never been athletic and never will be, and have developed permanent injuries as a result of this stupid PT program.

Chances are that is why you got injured....your body was just not use to any type of exercise...bet your thumbs and trigger fingers for tyour controllers are bad ass! LOL!

At least I'll be able to get a shiny nickle from the VA if I play my cards right when filling out the paperwork.

I have hearing loss and degenerative disk disease in my C5-C6. I take medication everyday for the DDD...but still sticking around to defend our country and you. But maybe one day we will see each other at the VA for our shiny nickels! :)

When the Air Force had its Blue to Green program earlier this decade, you didn't see a mass exodus of blue-suiters join the Army and try to convert their culture to ours. They knew it was pointless and that going Army they were essentially "dumbing-down" since anybody can be a trigger puller and drive a truck. I think Method Man or someone phrased it best when he said "Because the Air Force is trying to be more military, it's actually making it worse" and that is the bottom line to the majority of problems we've been experiencing overall.

This is incorrect...it is not making it worse...it is implementing a new military doctrine in our Air Force that some Old Timers don't like and refuse to change for the better. There is no more...delineated lines of battle. The battlefield has become 360 degrees. The Air Force is taking on more Army responsibility because they are being spread thin with the amount of conflicts around the world. Overall military doctrine is changing you might as well get use to it, embrace it cause it is not going back to the good old days of sitting back at the rear and talk about what you would have done...you will be talking about what you did on that convoy, what you did in town, what you did to keep up your endurance in a fire fight cause you were on a convoy and that got hit...and now your vehicle is disabled and you and you crew are fine but need to get to the next vehicle or hold your own till support arrives....this is just not cops...this is Comm, this is LRS....this is CE, this is combat camera....this is vehicle recovery....get use to it....it is not going to change because you dont like it. Frankly the military does not care if you dont like it or not...it is for the betterment of the Air Force, the mission and the good ole USA. If you guys dont like it and you dont think I am right....check out the dwell periods for AEF's they are gettting shorter and locations are a changing.

Your typical blue-suiter will always be some socially inept geek from Revenge of the Nerds or some pampered princess/snotty frat boy type who has never had to work a real day in their lives, but want to have bragging rights for their drinking buddies and whatever one-night stands they meet on a TDY or on Spring Break. I've seen it my entire career since it's the quality of people we attract. Just about everyone here can agree with that observation, I think.

I will disagree again here with you...not everyone here will agree with that statement above...there are plenty of people on here that do not fall into that discription...that maybe the case in your AFSC. But I have been with a lot of people who are proud of what they actually done to impact the mission of the Air Force and not sit back on the ace and said the could shoulda woulda game with there drinking buddies.





My final point....if you dont like the direction that the Air Force or our military doctrine is going maybe you should finish your entitletment so that you can secure your GI Bill or whatever college money you came in for and leave. If you like the direction it is going but hate your job...cross train....find something you really enjoy. But to sit hear and complain the PT program, the way the military is being changed, and about people who like what is coming down the pike does nothing for you.

[CMSBROWN]

The geniuses on Wall Street that got the country into the mess it's in--I'm sure most of them looked fit and sharp in their $1500 Italian suits--but it didn't have one iota to do with their values or job performance.

Let me try and make the point one more time: We had an effective and FIT Air Force long before the PT program came on board. The PT program will NOT improve the level of compliance with the Core Values or raise anyone's job peformance. The PT program will, if followed correctly, get people fit. That's it. No more, no less.

Perhaps if it was displayed throughout the Air Force and large amounts of airman, NCOs and Officers weren't constantly testing the tinsel strength of the ABU/BDU buttons, or completely extending the velcro straps on their flight suits we could fake the funk and give the appearance that we are a FIT Air Force....and just maybe the PT test would just go away........just my .02 centavos.

[Rastaman]

I have no interest in getting rid of the PT Test...the program is fine--I have major problems with how certain people implement it-but that is another thread for another day.

What really burns me up is the attitude that PT is THE make-or-break difference between success or failure of an individual, unit or the AF. I find it interesting that the Marines and the Army--who spend way more time doing PT than the AF--don't get all spun up about waist sizes and run times as some magical criteria to determine who is worthy and who is not. PT is PT. It is good. It builds fitness. It does not, however have any correlation to job competence, moral character or leadership ability. No amount of wishing it so will make it so.

[CMSBROWN]

I have no interest in getting rid of the PT Test...the program is fine--I have major problems with how certain people implement it-but that is another thread for another day.

What really burns me up is the attitude that PT is THE make-or-break difference between success or failure of an individual, unit or the AF. I find it interesting that the Marines and the Army--who spend way more time doing PT than the AF--don't get all spun up about waist sizes and run times as some magical criteria to determine who is worthy and who is not. PT is PT. It is good. It builds fitness. It does not, however have any correlation to job competence, moral character or leadership ability. No amount of wishing it so will make it so.

I dont want to get rid of the PT test either....it can bring nothing but good to for people's health.

But being a rating block on the EPR tells it the individual meets standards for the PT test that can ruin a career.

The Army and Marines do get spun up...they have a fit program as well. I was in the gym I belong to the other day and two very big ex-marines were talking about if they were in now they would be wearing a green t-shirt on it that says....PCP and white stripes....the PCP stands for Pork Chop Platoon...I died laughing when he said that...when I was in the Army they put you on the FAT-boy program...and you were called out of formation by the 1Sgt with the following words....if I call your name out...fall out for Fat-boy PT. My son who is in the Army and just came home for x-mas leave told me they take a PT test twice a year and if you fail or are fat...you are on remedial PT until you pass.

The bottom line Rastaman....there are alot of people in teh Air Force that DO NOT WANT TO DO PT. Point blank. But as long as you are in the Air Force you will have to...now how the PT test is enforced is up to the Commander responsible for his program. If he or she is ANTI-PT then chances are the whole unit will be....if they are PRO-PT the chances are so will the unit with the occasional profiles and failures....but then the Commander should start the paperwork for the discharge.

[acesfilter]

To piggy back on myself, I believe so much in the fit progrem that I started a similar thread to this several months ago. In my thread, "Should we target and embarass FAT Airmen?" here is what I said:

I know what you are all thinking...here's CC with another whacko thread But, listen for a second and let me cite you an example of a situation I encountered at home station and let me know your feelings on it.

We were having a Group CoC ceremony and our own base newspaper plus many local off-base reporters were due to come cover the event as the outgoing group CC was very popular in the community.

I got there early - before media to get a feel for the situation and scope things out. Well, there was a Flight formed up and a First Sergeant was standing proud in front. This formation, by their location alone, will end up being prominent in any photos the media took as they were located just off the flank of the ceremony - right in front of the "press box."

In the element nearest the press, directly up front, was a Major who was performing "a stress test on his BDU buttons" to put it nicely. Basically, he was a real porker. I thought to myself, "this is not the guy we want showing up in the foreground of the base paper's photos and all the local paper's photos - not the "ROLE MODEL" for the USAF we want portrayed.

Anyways, I tactfully got the First Sergeant away from the Flight and asked him to remove the Major from the flight as we can’t have him showing up in the papers (then I had to explain why---which is another issue in itself – he should know why!!!) Anyways, he wasn’t willing to call the Major out on being a fat @ss and get him out of the formation so I insisted he talk to his Commander and have him do it as we simply CANNOT have the porker in the photo (Makes me wonder why the dude is even in the military ---- again, another issue in itself!!!)

Again, he refused. I told him that we’ll just have to move the “press box” to the other side because I am not letting the porker represent our AF on and off base in photos --- no way! In PA, we often have to monitor such things – it’s kind of “our job.”

Well, I moved the little wooden platform that was the “press box” to the other side and his Commander, the LtCol saw me do it. He asked why because now his guys won’t be in the photo – the ceremony wasn’t about his d@mn guys to begin with --- again, another issue!!!

I explained to him why and he moved Maj. Porky Pig to the left element in the rear. This made the formation not truly sized but got the fat @ss out of the photos which made my job. We’ll, after this whole scenario, here is my question to you all:

Why would so many people dance on glass for the fat porker instead of telling him, “Hey sir, I’m sorry but you’re fat and can’t be in this formation?”

Would he like it? No. Does it matter? No. Regs are regs and maybe that prodding would make his fat @ss hit a treadmill or something….I’m just saying….

ONE MORE EXAMPLE OF HOW OUR AIR FORCE FATBODIES REPRESENT US WELL! Maybe this fatbody could put iron on target - fine....still, get his @ss out of the military formation.

Your little synopsis on how the AF schedule should be (though strikingly similar to that of an NCOES schedule) made me laugh. So did this.

I sense you really hate fat people. Go with your frustration. Vent!

Oh, and I'm sure the future recruits of the United States Air Force would appreciate vomiting right before breakfast.

[Combat correspondent]

Your little synopsis on how the AF schedule should be (though strikingly similar to that of an NCOES schedule) made me laugh. So did this.

I sense you really hate fat people. Go with your frustration. Vent!

Oh, and I'm sure the future recruits of the United States Air Force would appreciate vomiting right before breakfast.

What? Why would they have to vomit right before breakfast? What in the heck are you talking about? It is very, very simple, my friend. You can eat, not vomit, drink beer - party like a rock star ---- whatever! You just have to get off your fat ass 3-5 times a week, run, ride a bike, hit the gym, join a soccer team (or another sport requiring a ton of running), walk to the store instead of driving - whatever. Fitness can come in many ways and if recruits believe they have to throw up after every meal - we don't need them in the Air Force anyways.

[Angry Irishman]

I dont want to get rid of the PT test either....it can bring nothing but good to for people's health.

But being a rating block on the EPR tells it the individual meets standards for the PT test that can ruin a career.

The Army and Marines do get spun up...they have a fit program as well. I was in the gym I belong to the other day and two very big ex-marines were talking about if they were in now they would be wearing a green t-shirt on it that says....PCP and white stripes....the PCP stands for Pork Chop Platoon...I died laughing when he said that...when I was in the Army they put you on the FAT-boy program...and you were called out of formation by the 1Sgt with the following words....if I call your name out...fall out for Fat-boy PT. My son who is in the Army and just came home for x-mas leave told me they take a PT test twice a year and if you fail or are fat...you are on remedial PT until you pass.

The bottom line Rastaman....there are alot of people in teh Air Force that DO NOT WANT TO DO PT. Point blank. But as long as you are in the Air Force you will have to...now how the PT test is enforced is up to the Commander responsible for his program. If he or she is ANTI-PT then chances are the whole unit will be....if they are PRO-PT the chances are so will the unit with the occasional profiles and failures....but then the Commander should start the paperwork for the discharge.


I don't post too often on here but I feel compelled.....

Maybe, just maybe if the senior leadership of this Air Force focused on what the real problems are right now we wouldn't have so many of these discussions on an internet forum. If I'm trying to get out of debt I will pay off my the debt with the highest interest rates and work down from there. Leadership needs to "rack and stack:" the real problems that are literally plaguing the service today. How about manning, parts, adequate training, logistics that work and less reliance on contractors to function. We are in a situation now where this service cannot function without an ever increasing civilian force....of contractors. This is not that Air Force that many of us joined. It's a shame that I will be leaving the service that I do love with so many counterproductive chest beating changes.. It is not a better service than when I joined and I have thought long and hard about that subject. It's a company now not the military. We can't have it both ways....running everything like a company and wanting people to be more military with PT and creeds and HUAsss galore. The PT program, new uniforms, and many many other initiatives have drained the life from this Air Force. A few months ago I sat through a SNCO briefing from a Col from the Air Staff who's job it was to "identify" the character and way forward of the Air Force. In fact he was very candid and honest about his efforts. His statements basically confirmed what I've known for some years now...the Air Force is unguided and confused right now. Changing the name of organizations and uniforms and certainly PT isn't making any real significant difference except wasting more valuable time and money.

I'm not opposed to PT. I do think the underlying objective has more to do with the ability to cut loose more folks than for the betterment of their health. If the Air Force wants the service to be Army/Marine clones then provide the time to people to do PT as a unit and an organized part of the duty day like our sister services. I will tell you that me and many of my fellow SNCOs in my unit and across the Air Force are working 75 plus hour work weeks...My airman are so few that I cannot uniformly give them time to do PT. Why? The jets need to get off the ground and someone has to perform this function. It's not about poor time management or lack of ingenuity to make this happen it's about simple math and so many hours in a day. We function on man power studies from the 80s and provide piss poor, half ass training to these airman all in the name of the all mighty dollar. We are getting what we are paying for. The current CSAF has said we didn't save a nickle by the manpower cut backs. He's correct but look at the even worse situation we are in now. why doesn't the audit group do a survey on that topic? . I'm not bitching about long hours here; I'm talking about the time and manpower wasted on literally silly projects and taskings that amount to jack squat when it's said and done. Everyone in the chain of command knows it but we don't question anything in the military...that's just the way it is. We actually provide our leadership a disservice by conducting business this way. Hiding your head in the dirt isn't solving the real problems facing the Air Force as previously mentioned.

We've cut the fat, the muscle and now we are into the bone and sucking marrow. More business strategy initiatives isn't going to change this....especially in the short term. There are many who will call me a pessimist and negativity won't change a thing....that's true. The truth will! I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist and I hope the current CSAF (not being a fighter pilot) will take a "real" look at our current state. Do I say this in front of my subordinates? No, but I will on an internet forum. Am I complaining? I suppose this post will fit that definition to some degree. What I am tired of hearing is that if you don't agree or think there is a problem your just not a team player...which could not be more untrue. The military isn't a political party as many now live and treat it, it's a machine that is in need of a tune up and is sputtering right now.

And to the Chief above...yes it's our duty as NCOs and SNCOs to enforce policy. However, it's also our duty to call the BS flag now and then and provide leadership the TRUTH on occasion. It's true folks need to learn when to fight their battles but never questioning policy in order to improve or even do away with policy is the current mindset for too many. I'm sad to say that most Chiefs are not what they used to be. Not a personal jab at you Chief just a statement in general.

I will say this...I have spoken with many Chiefs off line about the current state of this Air Force. Most have told me that they are indeed "company men" and have been instructed to live with it or retire. I have never seen so many of our senior leaders retire as I have in just the last few years. Look at the Chief promotion rate this time around if you need concrete evidence.

Memorizing and reciting a creed and then yelling HUAaaaa is not a substitute for thinking and leading as senior leaders. Sure this creed is a guide and HUA makes us more Army like (it's actually embarrassing when I hear it) but it should not be an excuse for the real issues at hand like they magically disappear.. I want new airman to have the ability to think and when they become senior leaders to question at times policy and the way we do business. Instead we tell them to memorize this and to fill in all these blocks if they want to succeed....wrong. I don't know when so many people (not all) stopped having the ability to think as intelligent people...not robots. If so many of my fellow SNCOs would spend more time taking care of their folks and less time trying to impress their Command Chiefs more productive work may actually happen and we could as a service fix many more problems...even the damn PT program.

Long post...rant over. I love this Air Force; it has been good to me and I can proudly say I have given much back. That said, I am sad to say it is a worse service now then when I joined on so many levels. The bad outweighs the good in my opinion. I hope the Air Force will get back on course in my lifetime. I'm proud of my career and the many fine folks I have served with...that is something that the current situation cannot take away or change.

[MACHINE666]

Bravo, Angry Irishman, I applaud your rant. You have hit the nail on the head with that post.

Chief Brown, if that is your post in quotes in reply to my rant then that's cool. I will say this: I don't shoot firearms or fight bad guys from any moral or conscientious view point - I was a paramedic for the majority of my career and was more in tune with patching people up and saving lives than destroying them. Any fool can pull the trigger on a weapon, but until you know what it's like to successfully bring someone back from the dead using nothing but your own abilities, people telling me how bad-ass they are because they can take a life don't impress me in the slightest. By the same token any location has bad guys nowadays, as you pointed out as the battlefield no longer being simple to identify. My being here at Ramstein I can only imagine what some of the threats are that our Security Forces have had to intercept that I will never know about. Most gate guards are German Nationals who are definitely overweight and could not pass the PT test if they were told to accomplish it. Even if you're fighting the Taliban or some other group of weirdos, you're not going to go running after them on foot. Chances are you will pursue in a vehicle like a truck or an ATV. You don't have to be Johnny Posterboy to rough-up detainees either. So nice try but your retort doesn't hold water with me.

My injuries have occured within this past year as a result of prolonged running. Overuse injury and patello femoral syndrome that will require surgery eventually. A trip to the Orthopedist at Landstuhl revealed that any surgery done now would only make the situation worse, but the stretching exercises and daily regiment of Motrin, Naprosyn, Chondroitin Sulfate and Glucosamine HCI do not alleviate the chronic pain (NOT discomfort - yes there is a difference) I experience on a daily basis. Perhaps not as bad as what you may experience but still enough to put a dent in my armor. Before that I was running 3 miles every other day and was in great shape and could ace the PT test. Now I'm lucky if I can even do the 3 mile walk, so don't talk to me about not being used to exercising when I had been actively involved in PT since 2003. That's 5 years of doing things the Air Force way.

As for my current job, I was involuntarily cross-trained when the Air Force decided to cut the number of medical people they had earlier this decade. Unfortunately I can't cross-train out of this current job (I won't reveal my current AFSC) but let's just say that it is a critically manned careerfield which does nothing to inspire me. I clock in and clock out on a daily basis. No love whatsoever. I loved being on an ambulance crew and the adrenaline rush that came with it, and even if I were to get out of the military tomorrow, I would never be able to return to that job or lifestyle again. I can retire next year if I choose, and at this rate I most likely will. The proverbial milk has soured and like Irishman pointed out, leadership is too busy hiding their heads in the sand and people like myself who have the stones to call a B.S. flag are told to shut up and color. Thanks Chief, you're a real inspiration. I've been going full-throttle on my Bachelor's Degree and will hopefully have it in hand by the time I do call it a 20.

I've had enough.

[Rastaman]

I dont want to get rid of the PT test either....it can bring nothing but good to for people's health.

But being a rating block on the EPR tells it the individual meets standards for the PT test that can ruin a career.

The Army and Marines do get spun up...they have a fit program as well. I was in the gym I belong to the other day and two very big ex-marines were talking about if they were in now they would be wearing a green t-shirt on it that says....PCP and white stripes....the PCP stands for Pork Chop Platoon...I died laughing when he said that...when I was in the Army they put you on the FAT-boy program...and you were called out of formation by the 1Sgt with the following words....if I call your name out...fall out for Fat-boy PT. My son who is in the Army and just came home for x-mas leave told me they take a PT test twice a year and if you fail or are fat...you are on remedial PT until you pass.

The bottom line Rastaman....there are alot of people in teh Air Force that DO NOT WANT TO DO PT. Point blank. But as long as you are in the Air Force you will have to...now how the PT test is enforced is up to the Commander responsible for his program. If he or she is ANTI-PT then chances are the whole unit will be....if they are PRO-PT the chances are so will the unit with the occasional profiles and failures....but then the Commander should start the paperwork for the discharge.

Wow. The Army puts you in remedial PT until you pass. What a concept. Maybe the AF might try that? But we won't. You know why? Because the mindset of the AF is "GOTCHA" when it comes to PT. The Army and the Marines are more interested in raising fitness/promoting a healthy lifestyle--hence, their different approach.

As I have said before, good fitness is only one of many factors that makes up a successful Airman. Just because somebody decided to give it a seperate block on an EPR, doesn't make it any more important that it has ever been. To be a successful Airman you still need to practice the Core Values, master your AFSC and broaden your horizons by educating yourself and community interaction. These other things still matter. Heck, with a 97% pass rate in PT--it seems to me that we should be focusing more on these other things than on PT!

PT is important--but being an Airman is about a lot more than passing a PT test. If it wasn't, we would just recruit from prisons--lots of very fit people there! :D

[Rastaman]

I don't post too often on here but I feel compelled.....

Maybe, just maybe if the senior leadership of this Air Force focused on what the real problems are right now we wouldn't have so many of these discussions on an internet forum. If I'm trying to get out of debt I will pay off my the debt with the highest interest rates and work down from there. Leadership needs to "rack and stack:" the real problems that are literally plaguing the service today. How about manning, parts, adequate training, logistics that work and less reliance on contractors to function. We are in a situation now where this service cannot function without an ever increasing civilian force....of contractors. This is not that Air Force that many of us joined. It's a shame that I will be leaving the service that I do love with so many counterproductive chest beating changes.. It is not a better service than when I joined and I have thought long and hard about that subject. It's a company now not the military. We can't have it both ways....running everything like a company and wanting people to be more military with PT and creeds and HUAsss galore. The PT program, new uniforms, and many many other initiatives have drained the life from this Air Force. A few months ago I sat through a SNCO briefing from a Col from the Air Staff who's job it was to "identify" the character and way forward of the Air Force. In fact he was very candid and honest about his efforts. His statements basically confirmed what I've known for some years now...the Air Force is unguided and confused right now. Changing the name of organizations and uniforms and certainly PT isn't making any real significant difference except wasting more valuable time and money.

I'm not opposed to PT. I do think the underlying objective has more to do with the ability to cut loose more folks than for the betterment of their health. If the Air Force wants the service to be Army/Marine clones then provide the time to people to do PT as a unit and an organized part of the duty day like our sister services. I will tell you that me and many of my fellow SNCOs in my unit and across the Air Force are working 75 plus hour work weeks...My airman are so few that I cannot uniformly give them time to do PT. Why? The jets need to get off the ground and someone has to perform this function. It's not about poor time management or lack of ingenuity to make this happen it's about simple math and so many hours in a day. We function on man power studies from the 80s and provide piss poor, half ass training to these airman all in the name of the all mighty dollar. We are getting what we are paying for. The current CSAF has said we didn't save a nickle by the manpower cut backs. He's correct but look at the even worse situation we are in now. why doesn't the audit group do a survey on that topic? . I'm not bitching about long hours here; I'm talking about the time and manpower wasted on literally silly projects and taskings that amount to jack squat when it's said and done. Everyone in the chain of command knows it but we don't question anything in the military...that's just the way it is. We actually provide our leadership a disservice by conducting business this way. Hiding your head in the dirt isn't solving the real problems facing the Air Force as previously mentioned.

We've cut the fat, the muscle and now we are into the bone and sucking marrow. More business strategy initiatives isn't going to change this....especially in the short term. There are many who will call me a pessimist and negativity won't change a thing....that's true. The truth will! I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist and I hope the current CSAF (not being a fighter pilot) will take a "real" look at our current state. Do I say this in front of my subordinates? No, but I will on an internet forum. Am I complaining? I suppose this post will fit that definition to some degree. What I am tired of hearing is that if you don't agree or think there is a problem your just not a team player...which could not be more untrue. The military isn't a political party as many now live and treat it, it's a machine that is in need of a tune up and is sputtering right now.

And to the Chief above...yes it's our duty as NCOs and SNCOs to enforce policy. However, it's also our duty to call the BS flag now and then and provide leadership the TRUTH on occasion. It's true folks need to learn when to fight their battles but never questioning policy in order to improve or even do away with policy is the current mindset for too many. I'm sad to say that most Chiefs are not what they used to be. Not a personal jab at you Chief just a statement in general.

I will say this...I have spoken with many Chiefs off line about the current state of this Air Force. Most have told me that they are indeed "company men" and have been instructed to live with it or retire. I have never seen so many of our senior leaders retire as I have in just the last few years. Look at the Chief promotion rate this time around if you need concrete evidence.

Memorizing and reciting a creed and then yelling HUAaaaa is not a substitute for thinking and leading as senior leaders. Sure this creed is a guide and HUA makes us more Army like (it's actually embarrassing when I hear it) but it should not be an excuse for the real issues at hand like they magically disappear.. I want new airman to have the ability to think and when they become senior leaders to question at times policy and the way we do business. Instead we tell them to memorize this and to fill in all these blocks if they want to succeed....wrong. I don't know when so many people (not all) stopped having the ability to think as intelligent people...not robots. If so many of my fellow SNCOs would spend more time taking care of their folks and less time trying to impress their Command Chiefs more productive work may actually happen and we could as a service fix many more problems...even the damn PT program.

Long post...rant over. I love this Air Force; it has been good to me and I can proudly say I have given much back. That said, I am sad to say it is a worse service now then when I joined on so many levels. The bad outweighs the good in my opinion. I hope the Air Force will get back on course in my lifetime. I'm proud of my career and the many fine folks I have served with...that is something that the current situation cannot take away or change.

Good post!

[Smeghead]

To be a successful Airman you still need to practice the Core Values, master your AFSC and broaden your horizons by educating yourself and community interaction.

I'm still not sold on why that should matter. Yeah it's good to volunteer, read to kids, build houses for people, etc. All very admirable and important services. But none of those make me any better at the job I'm paid to do.

[Measure Man]

I'm still not sold on why that should matter. Yeah it's good to volunteer, read to kids, build houses for people, etc. All very admirable and important services. But none of those make me any better at the job I'm paid to do.

Public opinion of the military matters very very much.

Of course, Congress votes on our benefits, pay raises, GI Bill...and the like.

...and Congress votes however the community perception wind is blowing...

If the only thing Mabel Jones knows about the military is that they kill and rape 16 year old Iraqi girls...and stack up naked guys in detention centers...how likely is it that she'll want her Congressman to approve a military funding increase?

If the perception of military is that we are highly professional, by and large...good citizens...in their community.. etc.

If her perception is that we're just a bunch of ya-hoos...that don't do anything for the community other than keep the local bars and sheriffs busy...well, she's probably not gonna support the DOD budget...and her congressman probably won't either....but if she meets you working the local Charity Bingo event, she'll be more likely to support...

Also...let's face it...the only way we lose the current wars is if we run out of support from the American public...we can militarily fight those guys and win...it's the diplomatic/public affairs part that is the toughest battle...winning of hearts and minds...we need to be "fine young men" to accomplish that, not just bombs on target.

[CMSBROWN]

I don't post too often on here but I feel compelled.....

Maybe, just maybe if the senior leadership of this Air Force focused on what the real problems are right now we wouldn't have so many of these discussions on an internet forum. If I'm trying to get out of debt I will pay off my the debt with the highest interest rates and work down from there. Leadership needs to "rack and stack:" the real problems that are literally plaguing the service today. How about manning, parts, adequate training, logistics that work and less reliance on contractors to function. We are in a situation now where this service cannot function without an ever increasing civilian force....of contractors. This is not that Air Force that many of us joined. It's a shame that I will be leaving the service that I do love with so many counterproductive chest beating changes.. It is not a better service than when I joined and I have thought long and hard about that subject. It's a company now not the military. We can't have it both ways....running everything like a company and wanting people to be more military with PT and creeds and HUAsss galore. The PT program, new uniforms, and many many other initiatives have drained the life from this Air Force. A few months ago I sat through a SNCO briefing from a Col from the Air Staff who's job it was to "identify" the character and way forward of the Air Force. In fact he was very candid and honest about his efforts. His statements basically confirmed what I've known for some years now...the Air Force is unguided and confused right now. Changing the name of organizations and uniforms and certainly PT isn't making any real significant difference except wasting more valuable time and money.

I'm not opposed to PT. I do think the underlying objective has more to do with the ability to cut loose more folks than for the betterment of their health. If the Air Force wants the service to be Army/Marine clones then provide the time to people to do PT as a unit and an organized part of the duty day like our sister services. I will tell you that me and many of my fellow SNCOs in my unit and across the Air Force are working 75 plus hour work weeks...My airman are so few that I cannot uniformly give them time to do PT. Why? The jets need to get off the ground and someone has to perform this function. It's not about poor time management or lack of ingenuity to make this happen it's about simple math and so many hours in a day. We function on man power studies from the 80s and provide piss poor, half ass training to these airman all in the name of the all mighty dollar. We are getting what we are paying for. The current CSAF has said we didn't save a nickle by the manpower cut backs. He's correct but look at the even worse situation we are in now. why doesn't the audit group do a survey on that topic? . I'm not bitching about long hours here; I'm talking about the time and manpower wasted on literally silly projects and taskings that amount to jack squat when it's said and done. Everyone in the chain of command knows it but we don't question anything in the military...that's just the way it is. We actually provide our leadership a disservice by conducting business this way. Hiding your head in the dirt isn't solving the real problems facing the Air Force as previously mentioned.

We've cut the fat, the muscle and now we are into the bone and sucking marrow. More business strategy initiatives isn't going to change this....especially in the short term. There are many who will call me a pessimist and negativity won't change a thing....that's true. The truth will! I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist and I hope the current CSAF (not being a fighter pilot) will take a "real" look at our current state. Do I say this in front of my subordinates? No, but I will on an internet forum. Am I complaining? I suppose this post will fit that definition to some degree. What I am tired of hearing is that if you don't agree or think there is a problem your just not a team player...which could not be more untrue. The military isn't a political party as many now live and treat it, it's a machine that is in need of a tune up and is sputtering right now.

And to the Chief above...yes it's our duty as NCOs and SNCOs to enforce policy. However, it's also our duty to call the BS flag now and then and provide leadership the TRUTH on occasion. It's true folks need to learn when to fight their battles but never questioning policy in order to improve or even do away with policy is the current mindset for too many. I'm sad to say that most Chiefs are not what they used to be. Not a personal jab at you Chief just a statement in general.

I will say this...I have spoken with many Chiefs off line about the current state of this Air Force. Most have told me that they are indeed "company men" and have been instructed to live with it or retire. I have never seen so many of our senior leaders retire as I have in just the last few years. Look at the Chief promotion rate this time around if you need concrete evidence.

Memorizing and reciting a creed and then yelling HUAaaaa is not a substitute for thinking and leading as senior leaders. Sure this creed is a guide and HUA makes us more Army like (it's actually embarrassing when I hear it) but it should not be an excuse for the real issues at hand like they magically disappear.. I want new airman to have the ability to think and when they become senior leaders to question at times policy and the way we do business. Instead we tell them to memorize this and to fill in all these blocks if they want to succeed....wrong. I don't know when so many people (not all) stopped having the ability to think as intelligent people...not robots. If so many of my fellow SNCOs would spend more time taking care of their folks and less time trying to impress their Command Chiefs more productive work may actually happen and we could as a service fix many more problems...even the damn PT program.

Long post...rant over. I love this Air Force; it has been good to me and I can proudly say I have given much back. That said, I am sad to say it is a worse service now then when I joined on so many levels. The bad outweighs the good in my opinion. I hope the Air Force will get back on course in my lifetime. I'm proud of my career and the many fine folks I have served with...that is something that the current situation cannot take away or change.

Irish....TRACKING WITH YOU 100%

Have fought many battles from squadron to command level on policy that has nothing but negative impact on our airman and the mission productivity. But when a 2 star or 3 star looks at his aide and tells them to right it down and Chief I will get back to you and you hear nothing....it seems to be a uphill battle that you never get to the top.

We will continue to strive as NCO's to provide the best work environment, equipment, facilities and mentoring to set our airman up for success with what we have to the best of our ability, and that is all we can do. Is doing more with less go for the mission or our airman.....absolutely not....but it does at times give young airman in inspiration to look at an NCO who is their supervisor and see how innovative that NCO is. To see the example that NCO has set for their airman....still is doing more with less having an impact on our airman and the mission....ABSOFREAKINLUTLEY! But until the AF command leadership opens their eyes and listens to the O's, SNCO's, NCO's and airman who are doing the grunt or line work...nothing will ever change. But we as NCO's will continue to take care of our airman and do the best we can with what we have.

[VFFSSGT]

If they don't start listening to us; the Air Force will "implode" eventually just like every other business and organization has that indulged in poor practices... Some in the federal government believe the solution to America's spending problem is more spending (versus cutting back)....:rolleyes: Just like it seems the bulk of senior leadership believe more management is the solution when the Air Force "admits" a problem... Recent example: The "pencil-whipped" PT assessments the audit publically shed light on. I will never comprehend people's mentality that insists on avoiding the problems other than the idea that they are self-absorbed. Let’s not deal with the problems lets avoid them, cover them up, or push them off on someone else. Yeah, because that has worked so well in the past... :rolleyes: Another one, the nuclear enterprise...the answer to that one was reorganization and more management; many of the older generation suggested we go back to the SAC, maybe that is good, I don't know - too young to know about that one. But, the failures of the nuclear enterprise coincide what is going on throughout the entire Air Force. And I wonder how the nuclear enterprise and the rest of the Air Force would have been doing if the real focus of the Air Force was on mission, job-knowledge, job-performance, etc. versus inflated EPR bullets, awards, volunteering, booster club, more awards, more volunteering, quadruplet effort on about everything, inefficient and ineffective ancillary training, constant uniform changes and failures, CSAF reading list, etc. But mission, job-knowledge, and job-performance are no longer ingrained into NCO's or Airmen... The average person I know could care less about anything duty related - they are focused on what they have to do to look better than the next person...

I still wonder if anyone of significance monitors these forums...and are they "listening," not just reading or hearing but actually listening....

[CMSBROWN]

Bravo, Angry Irishman, I applaud your rant. You have hit the nail on the head with that post.

Chief Brown, if that is your post in quotes in reply to my rant then that's cool. I will say this: I don't shoot firearms or fight bad guys from any moral or conscientious view point - I was a paramedic for the majority of my career and was more in tune with patching people up and saving lives than destroying them.

Your job is as equally important as a SF, a firedog, a CE troop, a comm troop, etc. They all play an intregal part to the mission.....So please don't berate any AFSC.

My comments that you probably took offensive was to you and how you would rather

"rather spend my time reading Playstation Magazine or watch Comedy Central than suffer through some boring doctrine on military heritage. I'd rather play Nintendo or hang out with friends and go places than spend my time at the gym like some muscle-head."

And if that is your choice so be it.

Any fool can pull the trigger on a weapon, but until you know what it's like to successfully bring someone back from the dead using nothing but your own abilities, people telling me how bad-ass they are because they can take a life don't impress me in the slightest.

LOL! Have you been to the range lately? My point was that PT will help your endurance during a confrontation and why most cops like doing PT. And again it is not only the ability as you put it....they also do alot of critical thinking within seconds to successfully enhance the mission they are on.protecting personnel and resources ;)


By the same token any location has bad guys nowadays, as you pointed out as the battlefield no longer being simple to identify. My being here at Ramstein I can only imagine what some of the threats are that our Security Forces have had to intercept that I will never know about. Most gate guards are German Nationals who are definitely overweight and could not pass the PT test if they were told to accomplish it. Even if you're fighting the Taliban or some other group of weirdos, you're not going to go running after them on foot. Chances are you will pursue in a vehicle like a truck or an ATV. You don't have to be Johnny Posterboy to rough-up detainees either. So nice try but your retort doesn't hold water with me.

And Sunshine you think that we ride around in vehicles or ATV to chase the bad guy we pull up along side and say...Tag! We got you...now you have to get on cause I Tagged you? LMAO!...Maybe in the PS3 CoD4 world it just might work that way. But lets forget that we wear an IBA, ACH, 240 rounds of 5.56 ammo plus magazines, 45 rounds of 9mm and magazines, an M4, an M9, a Radio, a camel back and whatever other goodies we like to carry..all in all that is atleast another 55 pounds of gear on our person (when in the AOR). And now lets say...the badguy says...you didnt tag me not come get me...now try running and shooting or running up stairs with that gear on....again why I press for PT...if your out of shape...you wont make it.

My injuries have occured within this past year as a result of prolonged running. Overuse injury and patello femoral syndrome that will require surgery eventually. A trip to the Orthopedist at Landstuhl revealed that any surgery done now would only make the situation worse, but the stretching exercises and daily regiment of Motrin, Naprosyn, Chondroitin Sulfate and Glucosamine HCI do not alleviate the chronic pain (NOT discomfort - yes there is a difference) I experience on a daily basis.

Next time you go to your doc....ask him for Feldene (proxicam). I take 20mg every morning...and it make things alot more manageable.....couldnt hurt to try..

Perhaps not as bad as what you may experience but still enough to put a dent in my armor. Before that I was running 3 miles every other day and was in great shape and could ace the PT test. Now I'm lucky if I can even do the 3 mile walk, so don't talk to me about not being used to exercising when I had been actively involved in PT since 2003. That's 5 years of doing things the Air Force way.

As for my current job, I was involuntarily cross-trained when the Air Force decided to cut the number of medical people they had earlier this decade. Unfortunately I can't cross-train out of this current job (I won't reveal my current AFSC) but let's just say that it is a critically manned careerfield which does nothing to inspire me. I clock in and clock out on a daily basis. No love whatsoever. I loved being on an ambulance crew and the adrenaline rush that came with it, and even if I were to get out of the military tomorrow, I would never be able to return to that job or lifestyle again.

And why not? If it is something you love doing...get back to it somehow....find a way. You will be happier and will enjoy yourself more.

I can retire next year if I choose, and at this rate I most likely will.

Thank you for your service.... :)

The proverbial milk has soured and like Irishman pointed out, leadership is too busy hiding their heads in the sand and people like myself who have the stones to call a B.S. flag are told to shut up and color.

I have been there many many times...but I press foreward and provide the best environment, equipment and mentoring to my airman that I can. I give them the tools to succeed and drive on. Our retention rate is the best in the wing. Our manning is at 114%. So the whole squadron must like what we are doing and we get cross trains after we do augee-doggy training too.

Thanks Chief, you're a real inspiration.

Didn't know it was my mission to inspire you here on this forum...but I can try...from your posts to me it seems that your overall dissatisfaction is with how the Air Force is being run and maybe by who it is being run...I hear ya....Lima Charlie...and when someone like myself comes along and voices his opinion which, correct me if I am wrong, you don't really agree with, only throws salt on the wound. With your cross train into a AFSC you don't want to name you DO NOT LIKE IT AT ALL. To me it seems that your leadership or career counselor did not provide you with enough information on that AFSC before you decided to cross train setting you up for failure and demoralizing you. I don't know...I could be wrong and you knew exactly what you were getting into but didn't look at the big picture for that AFSC. Either way it bothers me that you are in a job you don't like and that it took the wind out of your sails. All I can tell you is make the best out of it as you can, look for ways to make it more enjoyable for you and your co-workers, and if the inclination is still there to retire then do so. Find you a job you will love to get up every morning that will make you happy. To me that paramedic job was what put the wind in your sails.

I've been going full-throttle on my Bachelor's Degree and will hopefully have it in hand by the time I do call it a 20.

Get'ter DUNNNNNNNNNNNNN!

I've had enough.

Machine we can agree to disagree on here....like THE ROCK used to say....IT DOESN"T MATTER WHAT YOU THINK!..LOL!

It is just a forum to exchange information, ideas, and opinions..... Nothing more nothing less.

Some use it to gather ideas, or to vent their frustrations....but frankly doing it on here really won't change a thing....send them up your chains of command....soon enought the squeeky wheel just might get the grease.

[ART]

If they don't start listening to us; the Air Force will "implode" eventually just like every other business and organization has that indulged in poor practices... Some in the federal government believe the solution to America's spending problem is more spending (versus cutting back)....:rolleyes: Just like it seems the bulk of senior leadership believe more management is the solution when the Air Force "admits" a problem... Recent example: The "pencil-whipped" PT assessments the audit publically shed light on. I will never comprehend people's mentality that insists on avoiding the problems other than the idea that they are self-absorbed. Let’s not deal with the problems lets avoid them, cover them up, or push them off on someone else. Yeah, because that has worked so well in the past... :rolleyes: Another one, the nuclear enterprise...the answer to that one was reorganization and more management; many of the older generation suggested we go back to the SAC, maybe that is good, I don't know - too young to know about that one. But, the failures of the nuclear enterprise coincide what is going on throughout the entire Air Force. And I wonder how the nuclear enterprise and the rest of the Air Force would have been doing if the real focus of the Air Force was on mission, job-knowledge, job-performance, etc. versus inflated EPR bullets, awards, volunteering, booster club, more awards, more volunteering, quadruplet effort on about everything, inefficient and ineffective ancillary training, constant uniform changes and failures, CSAF reading list, etc. But mission, job-knowledge, and job-performance are no longer ingrained into NCO's or Airmen... The average person I know could care less about anything duty related - they are focused on what they have to do to look better than the next person...

I still wonder if anyone of significance monitors these forums...and are they "listening," not just reading or hearing but actually listening....

I am a "SAC Trained Killer" from the 80's and can tell you that the focus was on mission and training in that order.

When I say "mission" I mean 95% FMC rates for our bombers, tankers and missiles. It was priority one and nothing got in the way of it. ALL maintenance personnel in my unit were on PRP and were treated like rock stars at the base hospital, CBPO and any other support function...most cops were as well.

And when I say training, it was quarterly exercises. Global Shield, Amalgam Brave, Red Flag, Maple Flag, MSET. Yeah...we had ancillary training: fire extinguisher, nuke surety, phase2 security and CPR. That was it. Today, we have 35 ancillary training requirements in my work center. PT was a 1.5 mile run, and we had a height/weight standard...period.

You would go to the chow hall and there would be a gaggle of GI's making breakfast, lunch, dinner and midnight meal to order. They were called cooks, and I would put some of these folks up against any of the celebrity chefs out there. They were great at what they did, had pride in keeping everyone well fed and we appreciated it.

Airmen who lived in the dorm were expected to do bay orderly. Married NCO's did CQ on the weekends and after hours, married Airmen were picked for base details. There were no contractors cleaning your work center or cooking your food. We took care of each other and were a much better service for it.

We didn't have some stupid creed to tell us why we were doing what we were doing, we all knew it because we DID IT every day.

[CMSBROWN]

If they don't start listening to us; the Air Force will "implode" eventually just like every other business and organization has that indulged in poor practices... Some in the federal government believe the solution to America's spending problem is more spending (versus cutting back)....:rolleyes: Just like it seems the bulk of senior leadership believe more management is the solution when the Air Force "admits" a problem... Recent example: The "pencil-whipped" PT assessments the audit publically shed light on. I will never comprehend people's mentality that insists on avoiding the problems other than the idea that they are self-absorbed. Let’s not deal with the problems lets avoid them, cover them up, or push them off on someone else. Yeah, because that has worked so well in the past... :rolleyes: Another one, the nuclear enterprise...the answer to that one was reorganization and more management; many of the older generation suggested we go back to the SAC, maybe that is good, I don't know - too young to know about that one. But, the failures of the nuclear enterprise coincide what is going on throughout the entire Air Force. And I wonder how the nuclear enterprise and the rest of the Air Force would have been doing if the real focus of the Air Force was on mission, job-knowledge, job-performance, etc. versus inflated EPR bullets, awards, volunteering, booster club, more awards, more volunteering, quadruplet effort on about everything, inefficient and ineffective ancillary training, constant uniform changes and failures, CSAF reading list, etc. But mission, job-knowledge, and job-performance are no longer ingrained into NCO's or Airmen... The average person I know could care less about anything duty related - they are focused on what they have to do to look better than the next person...

I still wonder if anyone of significance monitors these forums...and are they "listening," not just reading or hearing but actually listening....


And in my whole hearted humble opinion we need to get back to being a Military and away from the company/corporation attitude or mindset. Stop trying to be everyone's friend... If leadership would hold everyone accountable for their action from the top down. We do every job with a task, condition, and standards. We need to get back to doing them that way. We need to stop cutting corners on doing our jobs. We need to stop worrying if we are going to hurt Joe Snuffy's feeling if we ask him to do a job. If Snuffy baulks at your request or order....take him to the carpet. We need to tell them what needs to be done, how it needs to be done, and when it needs to be done. The fail to comply without good reason....call them to the carpet. Whack it off. I am willing to bet we get back to the SAC mentality and we wouldn't have NUCs flying around by accident without authorization. We wouldnt have NUC components being shipped to other countries....we would have the Air Force back...and running smoothly.

And Force Shaping...the biggest freakin mistake we could have ever done...IMO...Now we are scrabbling to get people back in. :mad:

But this is a PT thread...lets get back on track. :D

[CMSBROWN]

I am a "SAC Trained Killer" from the 80's and can tell you that the focus was on mission and training in that order.

When I say "mission" I mean 95% FMC rates for our bombers, tankers and missiles. It was priority one and nothing got in the way of it. ALL maintenance personnel in my unit were on PRP and were treated like rock stars at the base hospital, CBPO and any other support function...most cops were as well.

And when I say training, it was quarterly exercises. Global Shield, Amalgam Brave, Red Flag, Maple Flag, MSET. Yeah...we had ancillary training: fire extinguisher, nuke surety, phase2 security and CPR. That was it. Today, we have 35 ancillary training requirements in my work center. PT was a 1.5 mile run, and we had a height/weight standard...period.

You would go to the chow hall and there would be a gaggle of GI's making breakfast, lunch, dinner and midnight meal to order. They were called cooks, and I would put some of these folks up against any of the celebrity chefs out there. They were great at what they did, had pride in keeping everyone well fed and we appreciated it.

Airmen who lived in the dorm were expected to do bay orderly. Married NCO's did CQ on the weekends and after hours, married Airmen were picked for base details. There were no contractors cleaning your work center or cooking your food. We took care of each other and were a much better service for it.

We didn't have some stupid creed to tell us why we were doing what we were doing, we all knew it because we DID IT every day.

OUTSTANDING POST ART!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

[MaintChief]

I am a "SAC Trained Killer" from the 80's and can tell you that the focus was on mission and training in that order.

When I say "mission" I mean 95% FMC rates for our bombers, tankers and missiles. It was priority one and nothing got in the way of it. ALL maintenance personnel in my unit were on PRP and were treated like rock stars at the base hospital, CBPO and any other support function...most cops were as well.

And when I say training, it was quarterly exercises. Global Shield, Amalgam Brave, Red Flag, Maple Flag, MSET. Yeah...we had ancillary training: fire extinguisher, nuke surety, phase2 security and CPR. That was it. Today, we have 35 ancillary training requirements in my work center. PT was a 1.5 mile run, and we had a height/weight standard...period.

You would go to the chow hall and there would be a gaggle of GI's making breakfast, lunch, dinner and midnight meal to order. They were called cooks, and I would put some of these folks up against any of the celebrity chefs out there. They were great at what they did, had pride in keeping everyone well fed and we appreciated it.

Airmen who lived in the dorm were expected to do bay orderly. Married NCO's did CQ on the weekends and after hours, married Airmen were picked for base details. There were no contractors cleaning your work center or cooking your food. We took care of each other and were a much better service for it.

We didn't have some stupid creed to tell us why we were doing what we were doing, we all knew it because we DID IT every day.

CMSBROWN beat me to it, but OUTSTANDING post! And I agree 100% with everything stated.

[Old School CC]

I would like to see the Audit. I would also like to see the reasons for some of the failings in the Audit. There is far more to this than the article could ever begin to touch.

My problem with Air Force audits, they ask a simple question, "Is this being done?" No or Yes. If No, explain what isn't done and to what degree. It never reflects the reason or the "why".

At the end of most audits the auditor has the ability to add comments. Usually the comments are very cut and dry and give the overall review but I have never seen an explanation of failure beyond the norm. Audits provide a skewed look at very cut and dry things.

I would be impressed if all senior leadership allowed their PT test scores to be published. Oh and let them get tested not just by SrA Snuffy but have someone they are administering punishment on supervise the test. No it's not going to happen because it would be wrong of a senior leader to be scrutinized in this manner. But it sure would be fun to watch. I have seen what my commander does as a push up adn I know what I am expected to do. Funny how they look so different and if I did it his way I would have it much easier.

And so the saga continues the 5 percenters leading the charge for 95% of the force. "They ALL need to be like me!" Sorry for the sarcasm, just getting tired of the entire subject and we are continuing a spiral into oblivion.

Oh and how much more money are they going to waste on this program?

[BTDTNM]

Totally agree. This is a waste of brain power and money. Focus on the real problems first. I don't care a rat's ass about PT. If that's your passion, go for it. I met the standard as written. Leave me alone.

[wx4life]

Really? It's an Air Force INSTRUCTION, not a regulation. Learn the difference. .And we actually kicked serious ass without a mandatory Army-wannabe PT program. As many have already stated, there needs to be some perspective. People such as you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Last time I looked we were generating all the sorties required to maintain support of the AOR Air Tasking Order. You do know what that is, right? It is the PRIMARY reason that the USAF has for being...generating sorties to put iron or eyes on targets. Not to run around the flag-pole and maintain a 32 inch waist.

Holy crap! I agree with 10000%!!! WE ARE NOT THE FREAKING GUNGHO MARINES OR ARMY!! OUR MISSION IS TO FLY BIRDS NOT BE FREAKING BODY BUILDERS!! OUR JOB GETS DONE, LAY THE FECK OFF OF PUDGY PEOPLE!!! ONCE OUR JOB STARTS TO BE EFFECTED BY OUR WEIGHT THEN SAY SOMETHING OTHERWISE STFU!! 5 out of my 7 years in the AF I felt I was a fecking outsider. I DID MY JOB ALOT BETTER THEN THE MAJORITY AND I NEVER GOT INTO TROUBLE. My job required me to be at a computer for 8-12hrs a day. So being able to run a 12 min 1.5 mile run in time DID NOTHING to help me with my job. I NEVER got recognition for the hard work and many hours I put into my job. ALL I got was being talked down to, having to go to ridiculous health programs (ON MY OWN TIME) and DENIED any decorations SIMPLY BECAUSE I couldn't pass the test. EVEN THOUGH I WAS ONE OF THE FEW "GOTO" GUYS when something needed to be done at the shop. EVEN THOUGH I WAS A HUGE REASON WHY OUR SHOP GOT ABOVe 90% on our evaluations. I went downrange and NOT ONE DAMN TIME did me being overweight HINDER my job in any way.

Why don't we freaking combine back with the Army and just get it over with. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING. EVERY DAMN TIME I PICK UP THE AIRFORCE TIMES I READ SOMETHING THAT MAKES US LOOK MORE AND MORE LIKE THE ARMY.

MOST PEOPLE COMPLAINING ABOUT OVERWEIGHT AIRMEN ONLY GIVE A DAMN AS TO WHAT OTHERS SAY ABOUT THE AF, THEY DON'T CARE WHETHER THAT AIRMEN IS ACTUALLY AN ASSET TO THE AF.

[Max Power]

Holy crap! I agree with 10000%!!! WE ARE NOT THE FREAKING GUNGHO MARINES OR ARMY!! OUR MISSION IS TO FLY BIRDS NOT BE FREAKING BODY BUILDERS!! OUR JOB GETS DONE, LAY THE FECK OFF OF PUDGY PEOPLE!!! ONCE OUR JOB STARTS TO BE EFFECTED BY OUR WEIGHT THEN SAY SOMETHING OTHERWISE STFU!! 5 out of my 7 years in the AF I felt I was a fecking outsider. I DID MY JOB ALOT BETTER THEN THE MAJORITY AND I NEVER GOT INTO TROUBLE. My job required me to be at a computer for 8-12hrs a day. So being able to run a 12 min 1.5 mile run in time DID NOTHING to help me with my job. I NEVER got recognition for the hard work and many hours I put into my job. ALL I got was being talked down to, having to go to ridiculous health programs (ON MY OWN TIME) and DENIED any decorations SIMPLY BECAUSE I couldn't pass the test. EVEN THOUGH I WAS ONE OF THE FEW "GOTO" GUYS when something needed to be done at the shop. EVEN THOUGH I WAS A HUGE REASON WHY OUR SHOP GOT ABOVe 90% on our evaluations. I went downrange and NOT ONE DAMN TIME did me being overweight HINDER my job in any way.

Why don't we freaking combine back with the Army and just get it over with. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING. EVERY DAMN TIME I PICK UP THE AIRFORCE TIMES I READ SOMETHING THAT MAKES US LOOK MORE AND MORE LIKE THE ARMY.

MOST PEOPLE COMPLAINING ABOUT OVERWEIGHT AIRMEN ONLY GIVE A DAMN AS TO WHAT OTHERS SAY ABOUT THE AF, THEY DON'T CARE WHETHER THAT AIRMEN IS ACTUALLY AN ASSET TO THE AF.

Calm down. You know some exercise would help with that anger.

[Sgt HULK]

well there is nothing more left to say then what has been said in this thread. Im a maintainer. Ill tell you the only thing that matters on the line is numbers. to make the upper guys look pretty by putting jets in the sky. nothing else matters, not your wife and kids, not your health, not some Pt score, all that matters is FMC rate.

Try telling these guys after a 12 hr day 3 more hours of Cams to go do PT. Oh they give us 3 days a week during duty time. Sure we will let you go during duty we will also extend your duty day to make up for the lost time.

Im, a bodybuilder. Im 6'3 230lbs and at last month I was 11.5% b/f yet my 34 inch waist tells me im unhealthy as is my BMI ( what a joke) I know for certain that when the moment hits and I need help i know for fact no 143lb scrawny airman that can run his mile in 9 min is gonna do anything for me

Id rather that large robust strong airman to drag my butt out of harms way

you can test me as many times a yr you want. Ill never run the 1.5 faster then 13 min 230lbs slamming on your joints feels great btw and ill never have a smaller waist. genetics wont allow. But you will sure be happy when I can carry 2 of you out of a burning humvee without breaking a sweat and be able to go back for more oh and save your go on a diet excuse that i hear so many other smaller guys say. I cant and wont shrink in height not will my 6'6 250lb NCO friend who comes from a family of lumberjacks lol

sadly the airforce has had its priorities wrong for ages and it wont change in my lifetime

[Sgt HULK]

Now will come the gropes and whines about maintenance and SF, etc...not having time! D@mn cry babies. I was maintenance and served 8 mos. as a SF augmentee....I'll tell you what...these bastards just need a boost in morale and some effective leadership and they could work the same shift as above - spread across 3 separate shifts. No problem! I guarantee it!

The problem is these lazy @ss people sit around for too much of their shifts whining about how they have to work a 12 hour shift - boo hoo! We all should work a 12 hours shift - and it should include PT, open ranks, etc. (as I mentioned above)!!!

wow just wow.

so you were a augee and now you know all. Bless your heart, I actually feel for you

[Combat correspondent]

I am a "SAC Trained Killer" from the 80's and can tell you that the focus was on mission and training in that order.

When I say "mission" I mean 95% FMC rates for our bombers, tankers and missiles. It was priority one and nothing got in the way of it. ALL maintenance personnel in my unit were on PRP and were treated like rock stars at the base hospital, CBPO and any other support function...most cops were as well.

And when I say training, it was quarterly exercises. Global Shield, Amalgam Brave, Red Flag, Maple Flag, MSET. Yeah...we had ancillary training: fire extinguisher, nuke surety, phase2 security and CPR. That was it. Today, we have 35 ancillary training requirements in my work center. PT was a 1.5 mile run, and we had a height/weight standard...period.

You would go to the chow hall and there would be a gaggle of GI's making breakfast, lunch, dinner and midnight meal to order. They were called cooks, and I would put some of these folks up against any of the celebrity chefs out there. They were great at what they did, had pride in keeping everyone well fed and we appreciated it.

Airmen who lived in the dorm were expected to do bay orderly. Married NCO's did CQ on the weekends and after hours, married Airmen were picked for base details. There were no contractors cleaning your work center or cooking your food. We took care of each other and were a much better service for it.

We didn't have some stupid creed to tell us why we were doing what we were doing, we all knew it because we DID IT every day.

Fantastic post ART! This is what we need to get back to! I am not sure if this is what CSAF means when he said "back to the basics," but it IS WHAT HE SHOULD MEAN! This panzy-@ss corporate Air Force really sucks! I'd have never joined if I knew I was in for this. Still, I believe (with all my being) that we can be the Air Force you described again someday.

I make my section work! I make us PT and I strive to be what you once were. Semper Fedelis from the Sky above Mr. Art!

[Combat correspondent]

Holy crap! I agree with 10000%!!! WE ARE NOT THE FREAKING GUNGHO MARINES OR ARMY!! OUR MISSION IS TO FLY BIRDS NOT BE FREAKING BODY BUILDERS!! OUR JOB GETS DONE, LAY THE FECK OFF OF PUDGY PEOPLE!!! ONCE OUR JOB STARTS TO BE EFFECTED BY OUR WEIGHT THEN SAY SOMETHING OTHERWISE STFU!! 5 out of my 7 years in the AF I felt I was a fecking outsider. I DID MY JOB ALOT BETTER THEN THE MAJORITY AND I NEVER GOT INTO TROUBLE. My job required me to be at a computer for 8-12hrs a day. So being able to run a 12 min 1.5 mile run in time DID NOTHING to help me with my job. I NEVER got recognition for the hard work and many hours I put into my job. ALL I got was being talked down to, having to go to ridiculous health programs (ON MY OWN TIME) and DENIED any decorations SIMPLY BECAUSE I couldn't pass the test. EVEN THOUGH I WAS ONE OF THE FEW "GOTO" GUYS when something needed to be done at the shop. EVEN THOUGH I WAS A HUGE REASON WHY OUR SHOP GOT ABOVe 90% on our evaluations. I went downrange and NOT ONE DAMN TIME did me being overweight HINDER my job in any way.

Why don't we freaking combine back with the Army and just get it over with. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING. EVERY DAMN TIME I PICK UP THE AIRFORCE TIMES I READ SOMETHING THAT MAKES US LOOK MORE AND MORE LIKE THE ARMY.

MOST PEOPLE COMPLAINING ABOUT OVERWEIGHT AIRMEN ONLY GIVE A DAMN AS TO WHAT OTHERS SAY ABOUT THE AF, THEY DON'T CARE WHETHER THAT AIRMEN IS ACTUALLY AN ASSET TO THE AF.

Wow dude! Do you know where the [Caps Lock] key is? Try running off your stress there killer! Ooh-freakin'-rah for the usage of big letters versus little letters :)

[VFFSSGT]

Holy crap! I agree with 10000%!!! WE ARE NOT THE FREAKING GUNGHO MARINES OR ARMY!! OUR MISSION IS TO FLY BIRDS NOT BE FREAKING BODY BUILDERS!! OUR JOB GETS DONE, LAY THE FECK OFF OF PUDGY PEOPLE!!! ONCE OUR JOB STARTS TO BE EFFECTED BY OUR WEIGHT THEN SAY SOMETHING OTHERWISE STFU!! 5 out of my 7 years in the AF I felt I was a fecking outsider. I DID MY JOB ALOT BETTER THEN THE MAJORITY AND I NEVER GOT INTO TROUBLE. My job required me to be at a computer for 8-12hrs a day. So being able to run a 12 min 1.5 mile run in time DID NOTHING to help me with my job.

Calm down there sparky... Would like to point out this guy's mentality that I have referred to before as the negative attitude that has infiltrated Air Force members...


I NEVER got recognition for the hard work and many hours I put into my job.

Another bad mentality that is out there...'self-absorbed'

Do you get a pay check twice a month? Do you have health insurance? Do you have access to $85,000 for college? Then you got rewarded!


ALL I got was being talked down to, having to go to ridiculous health programs (ON MY OWN TIME) and DENIED any decorations SIMPLY BECAUSE I couldn't pass the test. EVEN THOUGH I WAS ONE OF THE FEW "GOTO" GUYS when something needed to be done at the shop. EVEN THOUGH I WAS A HUGE REASON WHY OUR SHOP GOT ABOVe 90% on our evaluations. I went downrange and NOT ONE DAMN TIME did me being overweight HINDER my job in any way.

Maybe it didn't, but if you had to perform a real military task, like combat it would have. And, if something happened to you, it would take more resources and effort to move your overweight body...

Aside from the fact that a healthy lifestyle is better for you in general and better on the military health care system....


Why don't we freaking combine back with the Army and just get it over with. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING. EVERY DAMN TIME I PICK UP THE AIRFORCE TIMES I READ SOMETHING THAT MAKES US LOOK MORE AND MORE LIKE THE ARMY.

MOST PEOPLE COMPLAINING ABOUT OVERWEIGHT AIRMEN ONLY GIVE A DAMN AS TO WHAT OTHERS SAY ABOUT THE AF, THEY DON'T CARE WHETHER THAT AIRMEN IS ACTUALLY AN ASSET TO THE AF.

You are only a real asset if you know how to conform to standards as defined by the Air Force and DOD. Why should someone have to risk their life to move you if need be when your being overweight is going to hinder the process.

Air Force, Army...what's the difference anymore...we are one big happy family.... :rolleyes: You are expected to know more than just your job and able to perform functions beyond your job! It isn't just about you and your job.

You actually sound just exactly like someone I know, "To a T"...except the guy I know got in trouble a few times...

[Combat correspondent]

Good post VFFSSGT, this guy's "me, me, me" attitude sucks to high heaven.

[Lefty]

CMSgt of the USAF, please listen to my post if you are on here. The PT program in the USAF needs one thing only, and that is to get rid of the waist measurement. Kick it back to the old school 2 minutes for pushups/situps, and a 2 mile run. The test is to establish a baseline of fitness in the USAF, and if a member is required to do more (i.e. flying high G aircraft (FACT test), and special operations), then they have to do more. The purpose of adding the screening questionnaire was to keep people from dying after the test. This has happened numerous times, and I think I remember the USAF being all about mitigating/eliminating risk of any kind. I love PT, and think it is needed all the time, but not in a surprise test. Unit commanders should keep their people accountable to some type of program, but not for performing on surprise tests. What if the member is sick or experiences some of the symptoms that could cause them to get seriously hurt or die? I'm with you on some of these things, but reinventing the wheel is something the USAF does way too often. I'm sick of it and so are many others. Just leave this one thing alone after making the above-mentioned changes, and work on procuring cost-effective weapon systems for us instead.

[BRUWIN]

Just leave this one thing alone after making the above-mentioned changes, and work on procuring cost-effective weapon systems for us instead.

Weapon system acquisition is not in the CMSAF's job description.

[technomage1]

I have often stated the waist measurement needs to be scrapped.

But try this idea on for size - a pass/fail test. In many ways, this is what we have now. The EPR/OPR block is pass fail, and other than local incentives like days off you get nothing for for going above and beyond. What if we just had a minimum time, # of pushups, and # of situps to be completed?

Thoughts?

[Combat correspondent]

I have often stated the waist measurement needs to be scrapped.

But try this idea on for size - a pass/fail test. In many ways, this is what we have now. The EPR/OPR block is pass fail, and other than local incentives like days off you get nothing for for going above and beyond. What if we just had a minimum time, # of pushups, and # of situps to be completed?

Thoughts?

Nope. We should have it standardized, run by the HAWC and worth WAPS points for Enlisted and a rated block on Officer's OPRs. Thoughts?

[Your_Name_Here]

Nope. We should have it standardized, run by the HAWC and worth WAPS points for Enlisted and a rated block on Officer's OPRs. Thoughts?

Standardized--isn't it already? I have read the tables in the back of AFI10-248, just like everyone else;

run by the HAWC--OK, them or the Hospital/MDG

WAPS pts?--how many we talking? If 1-2, maybe; any more than that--there's a risk of someone will want to make the cut by working out, as opposed to, I don't know--STUDYING? As if the current cluster f*** associated w/EPRs wasn't enough to contend with...

I'm not an O, so I can't speak to what they need--other than they MUST be held to a higher standard.

[Gunner7]

Is it possible that leadership really believes Airmen magically grew in circumference within weeks of a PT test? Who in their right mind would believe this crap. I guess it is easier to say we are fat instead of saying we are fat and dishonest. Expecting a junior member to conduct testing that has significant impact on a career is not intelligent. Having the same individual accomplish the test on a more frequent "random" basis is like hitting yourself in the head with a different hammer. Makes me wonder what kind of information Chief McKinley is getting from the field.

[VFFSSGT]

Leaders meet at Pentagon to discuss PT changes (http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2009/01/airforce_PT_update_011509w/)

Hopefully, they consulted medical officials this time...I have had Doctors and Physical Therapist on more than one occasion say some of the things organizations do for PT is bad for your body or not good enough...

It would be nice if all bases invested in the rubberized running tracks and larger gyms rather than expensive large screen televisions...

Maybe they thought this one through rather than make regulations and have everyone in a state of panic so to speak to figure out how to perform and conform.

Hopefully there is something there to help change the mentality of the Air Force...but not towards more negativity.

Hopefully whatever change they release if for the better, but I fear it will only bring out more negativity and considering no one wants to be a bad guy and wants to be friends with everyone the negativity will flourish.

[BRUWIN]

Nope. We should have it standardized, run by the HAWC and worth WAPS points for Enlisted and a rated block on Officer's OPRs. Thoughts?


WAPS points would definately give the program some incentive. Right now the only incentives are negative ones. Give PT HAWC integrity and some WAPS value and you watch...the program would succeed for those that really consider the military more than just a job..

[BTDTNM]

When did we go from Fly, Fight, Win to Fly, PT, Fight, Win? Is this a new core competency now? We didn't go overboard like this back in the SAC days. Up until a few years ago the whole PT thing was just fine. Perhaps that's when we started losing focus on what is most important in our service.

[VFFSSGT]

When did we go from Fly, Fight, Win to Fly, PT, Fight, Win? Is this a new core competency now? We didn't go overboard like this back in the SAC days. Up until a few years ago the whole PT thing was just fine. Perhaps that's when we started losing focus on what is most important in our service.

What is with the resentment of PT? I am no avid runner or anything by any means but PT is good for you and the Air Force. Negative attitudes from you older folks are probably one of the biggest causes of its failure aside from short falls in the program itself.

The AF did right by instituted PT; however, I am not convinced much thought and planning went into it.... The purpose came from the inability of people being able to "hang" while deployed... Things might have been just fine before...but when was the last time the AF was actively involved in 2 wars sustained for such a long period of time...?

[Lefty]

I do not think that the test should count for WAPs points or for extra goodies on the officer OPRs, and here is why. It will reward the same people that get the full points for the waist measurement, and keep the stigma that all the USAF wants is skinny airmen. The US and the USAF is very intent on keeping people healthy, because there is much concern over diabetes in the coming years. I understand that the USAF is investing in me, and that I should stay physically fit. Currently, I am going way above the USAF PT standards in my current workouts, but that should not be the standard for everyone. I agree with the Pass/Fail test that will actually test someone's physical fitness, and that different career fields can add baselines to what they need to accomplish. I find it ludicrous to surprise people with PT tests, because it will create a negative form of fear in people that are somewhat overweight. Commanders of units should assess their people and tell them to lose weight. This does not happen too often, and I wish someone would have told me that back in the day when I was heavier. Having the HAWC be the only organization to test is also not a good idea, and here is why. The head of my HAWC is not very good at determining the 90 degree requirement for pushups. He has told people to slow down, and not go as quickly. For a guy like me, I can complete the pushups to the maximum number in about 40 seconds. Some people are not as lucky, and they have to take the entire time going as fast as possible. The USAF and the people at the HAWC should trust that we are testing each other, otherwise, please take "Integrity First" out of our core values. I see this type of mistrust/micromanagement all the time; it makes me sick, and I want it to stop.

Also, VFFSSGT, who couldn't hang other than a couple of folks that made the USAF look bad? I don't see the point in punishing the entire Air Force for the mistakes of a few people that are overweight. I do not believe that the older members have it wrong either when they dislike what they see. This just adds up to more training/workout days that will be added to the schedule.

[VFFSSGT]

I do not believe it was just the fat, lazy ones that could not hang. I believe the consensus aside from good health was many people having issues in the desert, especially when you are in chemical gear for extended periods. If you are physically conditioned then you will be able to sustain it longer without falling out or not having energy to do anything later. Or, just outside performing general duties...a physically conditioned person will be able to sustain their job longer... Basically, there was a general substandard performance level across the board; at least that is how I understood it when they implemented the program. I thought it was a good thing even though I am not an avid runner, actually, I despise running. I would rather perform other cardio exercises but that is the cheapest way to exercise mass numbers of people, theoretically. It would be interesting to see the health care costs that have resulted from running. From people not having good shoes due to lack of knowledge, accidental injuries, injuries caused by running on concrete and asphalt, improper stretching exercises, leaders pushing their people beyond their current pushing ability, etc.

At the same time though, there are many, many shortfalls in the current program as they have all been discussed on here at some point. I am not convinced they put extensive thought into it or consulted medical experts based on what physical therapists and doctors have told me when I have gone in for an injury. Hopefully, they put more planning and thought into these changes that are coming down the pipe; however, I have a feeling they are only going to be more regulations like more testing, which is only going to bring out more negativity in people and people will learn how to defeat that too.

A recent example of poor PT planning I like to point to…Services at my base just put in like 30-40 large flat screen televisions throughout the fitness center. Meanwhile, we are still running on an asphalt roads and track. I have been to one base though, that has the rubberized track and rubberized sidewalks… I do no know about you, but I would rather have a rubberized track than a bunch of flat screens to watch the news on while you are suppose to be working out… Just one of many examples…

I also don't necessarily believe in mass or group PT because you have people of varying fitness levels trying to conform either to lower levels of fitness or higher levels of fitness that they cannot obtain... You also have PTL's leading the crowd that don't have much clue what they are doing and then you get that one gung-ho PTL that wants everyone to do 50 push-ups 50 sit-ups 50 mountain climbers times 3 and then a bunch of other non-sense... Then expect everyone to run 5K without walking regardless of fitness level or ability. And God forbid a member of leadership pass you while you are walking when you just came off an extended profile from an injury caused in the line of duty. It has to be broken up into performance levels or allot time for people to PT on their own or in small groups and if you fail its on you and you suffer the consequences....

As to the mistrust thing...see the last comment in the original post of this thread...

We are pretty much on the same page, just slightly different perspectives...

[BTDTNM]

I'm not against being in reasonable shape. I'm against the poor planning, and the amount of emphasis isn't relative to the importance of fitness. Really, six years into these wars and we aren't getting the mission done and the root cause is we are all out of shape?

I saw a picture once of some folks doing group PT, in a formation run with the unit flag. WEARING IBA IN THE AOR! That is how stupid some of our Commanders are allowing this to get. It's become a free-for-all. Combat Correspondent is a perfect example.

Chief McKinley is really showing his colors here. He is supposed to be the advocate for the enlisted force. You can't tell me the enlisted force is begging him for a tougher, even more ridiculous PT program. He appears to be towing the company line and being the good lap dog for the Generals. Not what the CMSAF position is for.

[Lefty]

Here is what probably happened to get this PT audit started...

No Kidding there he (CMSGTAF) sitting eating his tator tots at a large pentagon cafe. He is talking to some SMSgts who are dieing to be chiefs, when all of the sudden he sees some Marines fresh out a PT session. The Chief wonders to himself what we can do as an Air Force to get everyone into phenomenal shape, and it occurs to him, how about we reinvent the wheel all over again he tells himself. The USAF is very good at that.

I'm kidding about this story, but the principle remains the same. The CMSAF's job description is as follows "The Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force serves as a member of the Commander in Chief's staff to advise and assist in matters concerning Air Force enlisted members. Related DoD Occupational Subgroup: 521." I think he should be an advocate for doing away with the waist measurement, and a better promotion system for his enlisted force. We had a brand new butter bar come into our unit recently who wanted to change the way that we did PT. Luckily, the commanders at my unit told him no, and that he should concentrate on his job instead of worrying about everyone else. I liked that reaction, and someone should pull the chief aside and tell him the same thing. I just don't want it to get to a point where the AF personnel have to weigh in every week, and PT test every thirty days. We need to quit reinventing ourselves, and come up with a system that works.

[CommunityEditor]

Air Force leaders met Monday and Tuesday inside the Pentagon to discuss potential changes to the PT program. However, Chief Master Sgt. of the Air Force Rodney McKinley said he couldn’t say what those changes will be until Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz had been briefed.

A spokeswoman for Schwartz said she didn’t expect him to receive a briefing on the PT program for “another couple weeks.”

PT changes are up for debate after a report by the Air Force Audit Agency found unit commanders have failed to enforce the current fitness program and many airmen gain a significant amount of weight following their annual PT tests.

When asked what changes could come before the meeting, McKinley said “everything is on the table.” One of the Audit Agency’s recommendations was to encourage commanders to hold unannounced PT tests throughout the year.


Article: http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2009/01/airforce_PT_update_011509w/

[VFFSSGT]

I'm not against being in reasonable shape. I'm against the poor planning, and the amount of emphasis isn't relative to the importance of fitness. Really, six years into these wars and we aren't getting the mission done and the root cause is we are all out of shape?

I saw a picture once of some folks doing group PT, in a formation run with the unit flag. WEARING IBA IN THE AOR! That is how stupid some of our Commanders are allowing this to get. It's become a free-for-all. Combat Correspondent is a perfect example.

Chief McKinley is really showing his colors here. He is supposed to be the advocate for the enlisted force. You can't tell me the enlisted force is begging him for a tougher, even more ridiculous PT program. He appears to be towing the company line and being the good lap dog for the Generals. Not what the CMSAF position is for.

I agree there are some ridiculous commanders...and you pointed out one of many examples... I guess I misunderstood you or you came off wrong or something...it seemed like you were opposed to PT period....but I was also referring in general as well...

I also agree the CMSAF is off base as I have mentioned earlier...

[ART]

Air Force leaders met Monday and Tuesday inside the Pentagon to discuss potential changes to the PT program. However, Chief Master Sgt. of the Air Force Rodney McKinley said he couldn’t say what those changes will be until Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz had been briefed.

A spokeswoman for Schwartz said she didn’t expect him to receive a briefing on the PT program for “another couple weeks.”

PT changes are up for debate after a report by the Air Force Audit Agency found unit commanders have failed to enforce the current fitness program and many airmen gain a significant amount of weight following their annual PT tests.

When asked what changes could come before the meeting, McKinley said “everything is on the table.” One of the Audit Agency’s recommendations was to encourage commanders to hold unannounced PT tests throughout the year.


Article: http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2009/01/airforce_PT_update_011509w/


Sounds to me like we have a LEADERSHIP problem, not a PT problem.

Imagine that.:rolleyes:

[VFFSSGT]

And yet, I am sure we will suffer the consequences....

[technomage1]

And yet, I am sure we will suffer the consequences....

I agree. They'll make our lives miserable over this without addressing the root causes of the problem, separate good folks, and generally annoy the daylights out of the rest of us.

If we are to PT test downrange, I want duty time for PT, no more reacommplishing hours and hours of online training because it will expire downrange, etc, etc. If we get spot tested I want duty time at home station, and passes every single time I smoke that d@mn thing.

[imnohero]

So, I read through all 13 pages of this thread, and there has been no discussion of WHY the PT test doesn't work. In my opinion, here is what is right and wrong with the current AF fitness program:

1) Waist measurement. It is NOT an indicator of fitness. The medical community uses it as an indicator of health risk. Specifically, medical studies have found that a waist measurement over 40" can be a predictor of increased risk of heart disease, diabetes, and a few other things. Once again, since it's worth repeating, waist size is NOT an indicator of fitness. Putting it on a sliding scale and awarding points doesn't make it one either. This is a fault in the current fitness program and should be evaluated during fitness but not considered for awarding fitness points.

2) BMI. Again, a medical tool to indicate obesity and health risk. NOT a measurement of physical fitness. Look at the notes on a BMI table, it states (to paraphrase), BMI is not accurate for people with large amounts of lean muscle mass, like athletes. You know, like people that can do 60 push ups in a minute, and run 7 minute miles. Again, something to be evaluated for fitness, but since it's not a direct measure of fitness, don't link to points awards.

The AF tacitly acknowledged the problem with these measurements of "fitness" by awarding max points for waist measurement if you score below 25 on BMI.

3) Pushups/situps. Intended as a measurement of "core strength." As far as they go, the ability to do these exercises do demonstrate physical strength. I think this is OK, though I would scale the points differently and give them a greater percentage of overall score. Personally, I would add squats to the evaluation.

4) The run: in other words aerobic fitness. First, 1.5 miles is the bare minimum to evaluate aerobic fitness. It's the ability to run distance, not how quickly you do it that equates to fitness in this area. Put another way, the fitness of a person that can run 5 miles at 8 minute miles, is greater than of a person that can run 1.5 miles at 6 minute miles. Both are important however, so I, personally, would like to see points awarded for BOTH aspects of this fitness ability. Total distance run and total time up to a maximum amount (3 or 5 miles), then "table it out" for points.

5) There needs to be an alternative evaluation of aerobic fitness for those without the ability to run. And they need to be able to choose the alternative for the evaluation without penalty, having a "waiver," being on a profile, whatever. Guy with bad feet/knees doesn't need a doctors note to use swimming as his aerobic fitness test. Shoot have 3 or 4 kinds of tests, to accommodate the actual population.

6) Leadership needs to provide the resources for people to actually get fit. At McChord when I left in 2006, we had a 40 year old gym, nice equipment but the building was 40 years old and WAY TOO SMALL for the population using it. The HAWK had like 3 people working at it, there was no ability to "walk in" and have a conversation with a fitness expert because they were always so busy. These are 2 examples but there are countless ways that leadership is failing to support fitness with regard to resources.

[Combat correspondent]

Why isn't the PT program working? We can point he finger at PTLs, waist measurements, not being standardized through various commands - blah, blah, blah! If you re-read the 13 pages of posts on this subject, I think you will find an overwhelming majority are against getting off their rears and PTing. That being said, my vote is "the PT program is failing because people are too darn lazy." My 2 cents.

[imnohero]

No surprise you would read it that way, correspondent. One mark of a good leader is to see past their own prejudices and find the grains of truth in the sands of discontent.

Some people are lazy, most people are not highly motivated to participate in a blatantly flawed system. As one might expect, by actually knowing people instead of trying to pound them into an ill-fitting mold.

The solution to getting people to "buy into" the fitness movement is not getting a bigger hammer.

[Combat correspondent]

OK, so what is it? Maybe I am wrong to believe they are lazy---just what I've seen in real life and on here. What would you call it?

[imnohero]

Just like people have said in this thread, and others, the solution to the fitness "failure" is a combination of things:

1) Create a realistic assessment of fitness based on medical advice, not what is expedient, least expensive or easiest for leadership.
2) Stop paying lip service to fitness, punish the commanders ID'd in the study that failed to provide time for fitness IAW the AFI, provide duty time for fitness...if the mission doesn't "allow time" then fix the mission resources so it does.
3) Provide proper fitness resources, gyms, HAWC, medical personnel, fitness personnel, etc.
4) Change the PT program to create a realistic path to improve fitness for those not "in shape." (For whatever reason, either fatbody or recovering from injury or whatever)
5) Set clear, understandable fitness standard and stick to it. Don't let "exceeding" the standard become a new standard.
6) Actually ask the people in the Air Force what THEY think will work, don't sit up at AFHQ and commission a study. You want everyone to buy into change, it's got to be done from both sides, bottom and top.

As to lazy or not, answer this question...why would unit level NCOs be motivated to support a program their CC and AF Leadership don't really support? Why would anyone support change that leadership clearly doesn't? You talk about core values, integrity for leaders means backing up words with actions, even for Gen Schwartz. He can say whatever he wants, if he doesn't back it with real actions people won't believe or trust him.

[Combat correspondent]

Why would anyone support change that leadership clearly doesn't? You talk about core values, integrity for leaders means backing up words with actions, even for Gen Schwartz. He can say whatever he wants, if he doesn't back it with real actions people won't believe or trust him.

you are correct on this. Needs to start at the top. When I first came in - I was in PACAF. There, all the senior enlisted leadership was talking about new PT standards and everyone should get on board - that was nearly 7 years ago.....that being said, I am surprised it is taking this long to become part of the culture.

[AGE Guy]

Time spent doing PT at work is time spent NOT doing something else. Adding PT time for jobs that allready have a full workload either means not getting some part of the mission accomplished, or increasing the duty day. How important is PT to the senior leadership? From their talk it's just about issue number 1, and they would have no problem with FMC rates falling in order to bring PT up to standards. You never see air force audits of why technical data has so many errors or take so long to get fixed, do you? Or into why the MPE or finance can make pretty much any mistake they want and screw you over however they want without you having any recourse? No- you hear about PT.

The air force revolves around certain careers. Maintainers, cops, aircrews, APS. That's about it. Unfortunately, the organization that exists around them is constantly swelling, telling them all sorts of different things that they should be doing with their time... because at the MPE or the pentagon, if you take off an hour early to go to the gym, stuff still gets done. You want open ranks formations or retreat or formation runs 5 days a week or whatever other military bullshit that you see the army doing... fine. But the very first thing you have to do to get those things is to understand that all those man hours spent doing those things will have to be made up for by adding more personnel.

But, instead, we have AFSO21 and trying to figure out how to do more with less and waste less. I hate to tell you, but military traditions that people hold so dear and feel are important to morale or whatever- they are a waste of time from a value added perspective. Senior leadership has to choose- add more people so that they can see us all have plenty of time to act like soldiers, or drop the facade and accept the fact that acting like soldiers adds absolutely no value to any of our missions (except in career fields that actually SHOCK are supposed to act like soldiers). Hell, go read the PDG sometime- it spends pages and pages talking about how the air force accomplished it's mission because of an emphasis on technical competency rather then military discipline. Funny that that's material I'm supposed to learn to get promoted.



Or, they could just continue to lengthen our duty days and increase our deployment tempo while complaining that we are fat and lazy. I suppose that could work too.

[BTDTNM]

That's a good point. The Army has lots and lots of labor. Many people to do few things. You have to keep people busy while they aren't needed. That's why the bureaucracy and inefficiencies are so much worse in the Army. They have enough people to cover it. Same goes for PT.

As pointed out before. Is this really the top priority for big blue right now? WTF?

[Combat correspondent]

But, instead, we have AFSO21 and trying to figure out how to do more with less and waste less.

That part hit the nail on the head. AFSO21 - a concept created by Toyota to make more $$ (or I should say Yen). Fine and Dandy - Toyota doesn't have to worry about it's mechanics and engineers deploying to (uh, lets say Germany) and fighting the Mercedes employees in urban combat - their lives don't rest on each others shoulders. That being said, AFSO21 is great for Toyota --- nifty! However, it is a killer for us because we need to do more than make jets fly and save $$ --- we actually 'do' deploy and actually 'do' engage in combat. My 2 cents....AFSO21 is one of the biggest problems we face today....there, my 3 cents.

[AGE Guy]

If we could figure out how to meet our combat requirements with less resources used though- the taxpayers would certainly apprecitate that, no?

You ignored the rest of it- sometimes our lives do rest on each others shoulders. Sometimes. And yet, what percentage of Airmen will get shot at even once in their career? 1? 5? And how much money and time and resources should be used to help prevent the one in a thousand chance of an Airman dying because he's not physically fit in a combat zone? (VERY generous with 1/1,000 btw- if I remember correctly we have over 200k members and like 300 dead, the vast majority of whom were in career fields that you would expect).


I'm just pointing out, that if I'm gonna go spend 20 hours a week being hardcore workout dude and mr. military running around in the woods with an M-16 just in case I get lost and someone tries to shoot me some day so that my chance of surviving can go up a bit- you're gonna need to hire another person to fill in for the OTHER work that I could be doing.


I can either work 40 hour weeks to keep up with the mission, OR have 10 hours a week for PT and 30 hours for mission - can't do both.

Unless, as I said, you just keep making everyone who has a job that matters to the Air Force's daily mission as miserable as possible.

[Combat correspondent]

OK, consider this...

We do need more people, agreed. We do need to keep aircraft in the sky (i.e. maintenance, APS, etc.), agreed. We do need to keep on the cutting edge of technology to keep a step ahead of your adversaries, agreed. What are we not agreeing on, PT and Weapon skills. Also, I disagree on a 40 hour work week.

I proposed extending the work day to 10 hours. That is only 50 hours a week. Not bad at all - I've done much more than that and so have you. That schedule allows for 7.5 hours of work and 1 hour of PT and a formation each day, with a 1 hour lunch. Now, most people out there eat at their desk or in a breakroom, about a 30 minute lunch. So, essentially, you get a 7.5-8 hour work day plus PT & military customs. For what cost??? Only 10 extra hours each week...nothing!

[mfjdspence]

OK, consider this...
I proposed extending the work day to 10 hours. That is only 50 hours a week.... For what cost??? Only 10 extra hours each week...nothing!

Ughh, you be wrong there! Bases are moving to 4 12's and 3 free type work activities because of the costs of energy. There is a definite increase in costs when you start extending working hours not only to the units and installation, but the cost also rolls over to the members who are living off base and paying for their utilities.

PT changes need to be in line with what we are really doing. Sure there are a lot of fat people out there, but lets consider looking at any other branch. Aside from the Marines, who still has some fatties there, we probably are beating out the Army and most certinaly the Navy in total over all force health. Lets take another look at things again, is the goal of the PT program designed to help us now or to belay costs of management down the road? No one has ever been perfectly honest about this. There was a study done about instilling healthly living habbits and how it could cut DoD wide medical expenditures if it was able to get a modest improvement in the lifestyles of its personnel. The AF got ahold of that idea after it was forced on to them to find a way to instill better fitness and healthy living into its members and hence our "Fit to Fight" program.

As a whole, the AF was never unfit to fight, it was just that we had too many people who were able to gain waivers easier than it had been in the past. The Air Force senior leadership has gotten it into their minds that in order for us to look professional we need to all look tall, slim, and be able to bench press more than just a fanny pack.

By percentage, we are a culture of button pushers. Whether in the cockpit (maybe toggles), on the flight line w/ CAMS, or in SF (siren), even in CE lots of buttons to push and levers to pull. We were hired as button pushers and the AF leadership, though currently selling us out to the Army because they need our brains more than our boots, is going to have to contend w/ the fact that we are all not forward combat controllers and that these changes we see now is not how things will be.

We need to start looking ahead at what our real concept of operations is going to be in 2010 and beyond and make the changes necessary for that. We build bases, protect them, and fly...we are not ground combat troops though we may be filling that role to some degree right now, it was only because the political decision to not institute the draft to fill the ranks was made.

So put the program back to where it was, on your own time when you feel you need it, and put chubby out in the field w/ a pack on and see him lose the weight or break a leg. If he breaks his leg, show him the door....else keep him.

[mr253]

...it was only because the political decision to not institute the draft to fill the ranks was made.


I didn't know this one! I can understand now why things started to roll this way after 9/11. I do feel sorry for those airmen who weren't fit to fight when **** hit the fan. I wonder if there is a chance for airmen to be relieved from combat readiness or get out of fpcon so I can wear fatigues to fix planes!

[Smeghead]

II wonder if there is a chance for airmen to be relieved from combat readiness or get out of fpcon so I can wear fatigues to fix planes!

Once again, I have no friggin clue what you're trying to say.

[Combat correspondent]

I wonder if there is a chance for airmen to be relieved from combat readiness or get out of fpcon so I can wear fatigues to fix planes!

Um, yeah! What you just said. So long and thanks for all the fish, killer :)

Can you try that one again in English, please?

[AGE Guy]

CC, lots of airmen are allready working 50 or 60 hour weeks. My point is that when you start adding more "military" time it's those airmen whose weeks get longer, while the MPE just cuts back "work" hours to make up for the extra time.

And maybe you can justify adding extra hours to the workweek routinely. So now when you need to pull overtime you're going to 70 hour weeks instead of 50. Really, there is a limit to how much people will tolerate and still reenlist- and I truly don't understand why there is such a push to make everyone's work conditions WORSE, with no corresponding gain in combat readiness/mission effectiveness.

- And no, I don't think PT is a noticeable impact on mission effectiveness. I can't imagine better PT would have prevented the deaths of more then 5 airmen during the entire war to this point, out of the hundreds of thousands of rotations we've done.

[SergeantTobasco]

CC, lots of airmen are allready working 50 or 60 hour weeks. My point is that when you start adding more "military" time it's those airmen whose weeks get longer, while the MPE just cuts back "work" hours to make up for the extra time.

And maybe you can justify adding extra hours to the workweek routinely. So now when you need to pull overtime you're going to 70 hour weeks instead of 50. Really, there is a limit to how much people will tolerate and still reenlist- and I truly don't understand why there is such a push to make everyone's work conditions WORSE, with no corresponding gain in combat readiness/mission effectiveness.

- And no, I don't think PT is a noticeable impact on mission effectiveness. I can't imagine better PT would have prevented the deaths of more then 5 airmen during the entire war to this point, out of the hundreds of thousands of rotations we've done.


I agree entirely; I maintain 90% on my fitness score since I enlisted and it has not helped me to do my job any better. The only thing organized PT does is take extra time out of the workday one way or another; wether it is making an already thinly stretched roster have to work harder or adding to the work load of those who have been picking up the slack before organized PT started. If you want an Fit 2 Fight AirForce (or what ever they're calling it this fiscal year) You need to add an Inniative to want to be healthy , not to just past a test once a year.

[mr253]

In english,

Im done with battle dress while performing maintenance.

[Smeghead]

In english,

Im done with battle dress while performing maintenance.

I'm still not getting it

[mr253]

I'm still not getting it

Haha, if you're not kidding I am truly sorry but you can't say I didn't try! :cool:


In english,

I tried, sorry.

[CMSBROWN]

All I have to say is....when I watch the Pass and Review for President Obama during his inauguration and the Air Force did their Pass and Review I was freakin-A-disgusted!

Who in the Fugg put those fatasses in the GD formation on WORLD TV? Those freakin overcoats just made them look even fatter! My wife looked at me to see my reaction and I was like WTF!

And we wonder why other branches give us the name...CHAIR-FORCE!

IMO....Get you asses in shape and represent us PROPERLY in uniform....if you dont like it....PCS to Livingroom AFB, Hometown USA!

[VFFSSGT]

You noticed that too, uh...?!?!?!? Those fat ones should get the boot and someone should be fired for letting them march...

[Smeghead]

http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/090120-D-1052M-101.jpg

[CMSBROWN]

You noticed that too, uh...?!?!?!? Those fat ones should get the boot and someone should be fired for letting them march...


As you can tell I am still fired up about it....I was just plain disgusted.

[Combat correspondent]

As you can tell I am still fired up about it....I was just plain disgusted.

Me too Chief! I've made similar comments since entering this board in June. The fat a$$ idiots representing us in parades and formations. The po-dunk Senior Officers who begin a ho-down as soon as the AF Song starts, the list goes on....these idiots need the boot and need it fast. There should be no room for people who don't properly portray a military image. Give them 1 month to shape up or discharge them without benefits and under "other than honorable" conditions regardless of rank. On that note, stop paying Mosley retirement as he was the fattest of all. Its been nearly a decade since AF spun up it's PT and these fat a$$es still are not on board! WTF?

[MaintChief]

Me too Chief! I've made similar comments since entering this board in June. The fat a$$ idiots representing us in parades and formations. The po-dunk Senior Officers who begin a ho-down as soon as the AF Song starts, the list goes on....these idiots need the boot and need it fast. There should be no room for people who don't properly portray a military image. Give them 1 month to shape up or discharge them without benefits and under "other than honorable" conditions regardless of rank. On that note, stop paying Mosley retirement as he was the fattest of all. Its been nearly a decade since AF spun up it's PT and these fat a$$es still are not on board! WTF?

The current USAF PT program began, if I'm not mistaken, in 2004. Please go to http://www.af.mil/news/airman/1004/fight.shtml. That's 6 years ago, 4 years short of a "decade". And that is by definition not "nearly" a decade. A perfect illustration of my point: lack of attention to detail. I believe that puts you at the top of my discharge list...you probably are the poster child for "fit to fight" but I really have doubts about the quality and accuracy of your work, as evidenced by your postings. And since failure to perform commensurate with grade is a reason for demotion and separation, how about we show you the door? After all, failure to follow directions and lack of attention to detail are directly responsible for the major embarrassment to the USAF image re: nuclear incidents. Or are you saying that PT is more important than paying attention to your job? I don't recall any special commissions stating that the USAF has failed to perform it's mission due to PT or appearance. I do recall one or two that has slammed us for failure to follow proper procedures/protocol in the areas of the nuclear enterprise and in acquisitions.

[sigecaps]

The first time I met GEN Mosley his DCU blouse looked like it wanted to burst over his gigantic gut. Generally, I'm of the opinion that fitness and leadership have little relevance on the other. There's no way you can convince me that PT tests have any relevance in leadership ability in today's Air Force, outside of a few combat AFSCs. However, you can't be the Chief of Staff of the Air Force, and look like a complete slob. I had a hard time taking any commander's pitch that we need to be "fit-to-fight" seriously after meeting the CSAF.

[Combat correspondent]

The current USAF PT program began, if I'm not mistaken, in 2004. Please go to http://www.af.mil/news/airman/1004/fight.shtml. That's 6 years ago, 4 years short of a "decade". And that is by definition not "nearly" a decade. A perfect illustration of my point: lack of attention to detail. I believe that puts you at the top of my discharge list...you probably are the poster child for "fit to fight" but I really have doubts about the quality and accuracy of your work, as evidenced by your postings. And since failure to perform commensurate with grade is a reason for demotion and separation, how about we show you the door? After all, failure to follow directions and lack of attention to detail are directly responsible for the major embarrassment to the USAF image re: nuclear incidents. Or are you saying that PT is more important than paying attention to your job? I don't recall any special commissions stating that the USAF has failed to perform it's mission due to PT or appearance. I do recall one or two that has slammed us for failure to follow proper procedures/protocol in the areas of the nuclear enterprise and in acquisitions.

All right MaintChief, you said your old job was PMEL, right? Or was it Avionics? Anyways....pretend its PMEL and follow me for a moment....After paying close attentions and making little tweaks to resistors and stuff, are you ready to look at your TV remote with that same precision set of eyes, or do you just want to take a break and fat finger the little b!tch? I am guessing the latter. My job is PA, I have to write in AP style and edit other peoples crap all day - when I get away from works I want to drop the "F" bomb and write the way I be feelin'!

As far as the decade....excuse me - I wasn't around then. So then, 6 years. In any regard, 6 years is long enough to make a drastic climate change and even a culture change - is it not? 6 years ago wasn't the typical AEF rotation 3 months long? Now, are they not at minimum 4 with an average around 6? Do people still cling to the 3 month and whine about it??? No! They've moved on. So, why 6 years later do they drag their feet on the PT issue. Could it be, perhaps, they are lazy son's of b!athces. Ooops, there goes my improper Ingles again! Sorry!

[mel44]

All I have to say is....when I watch the Pass and Review for President Obama during his inauguration and the Air Force did their Pass and Review I was freakin-A-disgusted!

Who in the Fugg put those fatasses in the GD formation on WORLD TV? Those freakin overcoats just made them look even fatter! My wife looked at me to see my reaction and I was like WTF!

And we wonder why other branches give us the name...CHAIR-FORCE!

IMO....Get you asses in shape and represent us PROPERLY in uniform....if you dont like it....PCS to Livingroom AFB, Hometown USA!

CM - deep cleansing breaths - in - out, in - out. It will be ok - Everyone has a secret love for the AF. They are the cool and dignified.

[sigecaps]

As far as the decade....excuse me - I wasn't around then. So then, 6 years. In any regard, 6 years is long enough to make a drastic climate change and even a culture change - is it not? 6 years ago wasn't the typical AEF rotation 3 months long? Now, are they not at minimum 4 with an average around 6? Do people still cling to the 3 month and whine about it??? No! They've moved on. So, why 6 years later do they drag their feet on the PT issue. Could it be, perhaps, they are lazy son's of b!athces. Ooops, there goes my improper Ingles again! Sorry!

I think the problem with this mentality is thinking you can force culture change through physical fitness. The culture comes from the fact that the Air Force is a REMF force. Change the way we fight, and you'll change the culture. But you won't force the culture change through pt.

[MaintChief]

All right MaintChief, you said your old job was PMEL, right? Or was it Avionics? Anyways....pretend its PMEL and follow me for a moment....After paying close attentions and making little tweaks to resistors and stuff, are you ready to look at your TV remote with that same precision set of eyes, or do you just want to take a break and fat finger the little b!tch? I am guessing the latter. My job is PA, I have to write in AP style and edit other peoples crap all day - when I get away from works I want to drop the "F" bomb and write the way I be feelin'!

As far as the decade....excuse me - I wasn't around then. So then, 6 years. In any regard, 6 years is long enough to make a drastic climate change and even a culture change - is it not? 6 years ago wasn't the typical AEF rotation 3 months long? Now, are they not at minimum 4 with an average around 6? Do people still cling to the 3 month and whine about it??? No! They've moved on. So, why 6 years later do they drag their feet on the PT issue. Could it be, perhaps, they are lazy son's of b!athces. Ooops, there goes my improper Ingles again! Sorry!

My job, when I actually carried a tool box, was Avionics. Both in-shop and flightline. Also CUT trained as a crewchief on heavies. And once again, you miss my point. Produce the DATA to support your opinion. There is none. Only opinions. I have produced facts to support my assertions. We have had NO failures of missions or sorties due to PT. We HAVE had failures due to lack of attention to detail, failure to follow technical data, etc. As far as the 6 years, the USAF has made a culture change. And if you correlate the emphasis on PT with the lack of emphasis on performance in your JOB, then the evidence is indisputable that we have a problem. Next?

[mel44]

I think the problem with this mentality is thinking you can force culture change through physical fitness. The culture comes from the fact that the Air Force is a REMF force. Change the way we fight, and you'll change the culture. But you won't force the culture change through pt.

Rememer S- PT starts at home!

[Combat correspondent]

... if you correlate the emphasis on PT with the lack of emphasis on performance in your JOB, then the evidence is indisputable that we have a problem. Next?

Neither, nor, Chief. What concept are Senior NCOs promoted on? The whole person concept.

Its fine to be a great mechanic, but does that make a person a great Airman? Should more be judged? What if this Airman does nothing more than repair HUDs? Can he PT? Does he comply with 36-2903? Does he stop and salute during retreat? Does he address hisr superiors with respect and is he disciplined? Does he expand him education and take advantage of AFSC-related education opportunities? Does he volunteer? Should someone who is more or less a douche bag in all walks of life but maticulouls at fixing HUDs in his Avionics shop be lauded and left alone or should he be pushed in all areas? What is your SNCO answer?

One final point before you answer...Rumor has it John Gasey was one hell of a clown. I mean, if wearing a clown suit and juggling bowling pins was the only thing this guy was known for - he was pretty high speed....get my point?

[Q1Checkride]

One final point before you answer...Rumor has it John Gasey was one hell of a clown. I mean, if wearing a clown suit and juggling bowling pins was the only thing this guy was known for - he was pretty high speed....get my point?

his name was john wayne gacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wayne_Gacy), genius

[Combat correspondent]

his name was john wayne gacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wayne_Gacy), genius

Oh shi!t...I guess I meant the other clown.

Errrrr....

Thanks killer. Without you, that extra 'e' in Gacy would have just slipped through the cracks.

[sweatyAZ]

People can argue till their blue in the face about how important PT is, but the fact remains that it will FOREVER be second to your job. I understand the importance of the Whole Airman concept but PT, volunteering, and off duty education are not more important then the job you were given. Honestly if I see more then two volunteer bullets on someones EPR then I know they havnt been doing their job well enough to fill out the paper work, and will be marked down for it. Public image is great, we need the public for many things and when they see us in a positive light they are more then willing to help us with whatever it may be. However, they arnt beside me when the mortars and rockets come rolling in. Which by the way you sure as hell better not be running anywhere, you better be nose deep in the dirt praying to whatever god you have that the phalanx system picks it off.

[Combat correspondent]

People can argue till their blue in the face about how important PT is, but the fact remains that it will FOREVER be second to your job. I understand the importance of the Whole Airman concept but PT, volunteering, and off duty education are not more important then the job you were given. Honestly if I see more then two volunteer bullets on someones EPR then I know they havnt been doing their job well enough to fill out the paper work, and will be marked down for it. Public image is great, we need the public for many things and when they see us in a positive light they are more then willing to help us with whatever it may be. However, they arnt beside me when the mortars and rockets come rolling in. Which by the way you sure as hell better not be running anywhere, you better be nose deep in the dirt praying to whatever god you have that the phalanx system picks it off.

Nope. When mortars and rockets come in, or our foot patrol is engaged, convoy attacked, whatever.....those are the best photo ops - certainly won't have this guy's nose in any dirt.

As far as the job being #1, that goes without saying. My point is, the job is not the catch all. Nor should it be. I'm sorry, you can be a jam-up dude in whatever you do, but if you walk around in uniform with dip in your mouth or chatting away on your cell phone - your hard work no longer means a thing because you official become a big, steaming pile of douche incapable of following simple orders.

That also extends to larger issues....i.e. fat boys not doing their doses of PT.

[sweatyAZ]

I whole heartidly agree with you about the dip and cell phones, you know the rules right from the start, no excuses. And I really do applaud, and have great respect for the work you guys do in those situations, but how many in the AF do your job? The vast majority of us who dont do what you do are told flat out when you enter the combat zone when you hear "incomming" on the speakers get down and stay down, and for good reason. They didnt call that place "Mortaritaville" for nothing. In my opinion your job is 75 to 80 percent of what your supposed to be doing, divide the rest up as you will. Thats the beauty part of being a NCO, you get to tell your Airmen whats important in the feedbacks you do and there is no cookie cutter that we all have to stress, only what the standards are, but I doubt alot of us stress "just meet the standards"

[mfjdspence]

Neither, nor, Chief. What concept are Senior NCOs promoted on? The whole person concept.

Its fine to be a great mechanic, but does that make a person a great Airman? Should more be judged? What if this Airman does nothing more than repair HUDs? Can he PT? Does he comply with 36-2903? Does he stop and salute during retreat? Does he address hisr superiors with respect and is he disciplined? Does he expand him education and take advantage of AFSC-related education opportunities? Does he volunteer? Should someone who is more or less a douche bag in all walks of life but maticulouls at fixing HUDs in his Avionics shop be lauded and left alone or should he be pushed in all areas? What is your SNCO answer?

The "Whole Person Concept" is nothing but a catch phrase for those who couldn't figure out how make themselves stand out more than they guy who was busting their hump and coming up with ideas on how to make things more effecient, save money, or even invent something. How dare anyone ever tell me that I do not fit the whole person concept when I already volunteered to give my life, limbs, etc to my country in its defense. To say that there is even a "Whole Person Concept" to begin with is demeaning and should be taken out to pasture via the fastest method of transportation possible.

I have spent my entire career working behind the scenes and getting pats on the back for being inventive, but never coming up for any awards because I didn't decide to kiss booty on my day off by volunteering an already limited amount of time that could be considered free time. It isn't fair to those who are truely shaping the Air Force, the hard workers, to be rated as second class Airmen because a$$ clown Sgt X is considered the whole person concept. Never mind the fact that Sgt X spends most of his day volunteering his shop up to things that he gets to put on his package as "involved in" or "spearheaded".

Our awards system is just as big of a joke if not bigger than our EPR system and of course our PT programs. If you want to do something right, do it right. Level the playing field and determine if X person is giving their 110% and not some aribtraury set of BS like "Whole Person Concept".

Personally, I think there are too many "Whole Persons" running the show and not enough people who actually know what they are doing...as evident by our ever changing sets of standards, regulations, uniforms, programs, etc.

[Combat correspondent]

I'll say it slowly, one more time, since you're obviously slow on the uptake: I don't discount PT. I think it's a good thing. What I disagree with is the attitude and opinion that there is a problem in the USAF with fitness. The data does not support the assertion. And I also disagree with the hyper-attention that PT is getting. We have real problems that are facing us as an entity and people such as you completely miss the boat in priorities.

Picture Ace Ventura's face for a moment....."Re-he-heally?"

There's no data to support the assertion? This thread is called "Leaders meet at Pentagon to discuss PT changes" and is based on an "investigation" directed by the CMSAF to address the issue....OK, Chief, there's no problem with USAF fitness and this is just "my tangent." Wow! If you saw CMSAF McKinley personally this weekend, is that what you'd tell him? Of course not because you don't believe it yourself. You may state that on this thread but you don't really believe it. How could you? You are not in a position to know. You likely work at an Operational level, and are charged with leading Airmen in your Maintenance Squadron or maybe a Group. He see's the AF big picture across all those Squadrons, Groups, Wings and MAJCOMs. Surely he is in a better position to know what IS and USAF problem and what IS NOT. I am glad to hear your unit is squared away - semper fidelis for that too! Now, let the CMSAF square away the rest of the USAF. Thanks.

[Combat correspondent]

How dare anyone ever tell me that I do not fit the whole person concept when I already volunteered to give my life, limbs, etc to my country in its defense.

OK, I'll catch that dare - you don't fit the whole person concept, there killer. And, that is an obvious fact. You say the you already volunteered to give your life, limbs, and etc to your country and its defense. Brav-feakin'-o, man! You really are better than the rest of us who did not do that :) Get my point?

Everyone volunteered their life, limbs, etc to their country in its defense...you're not special on this - though I applaud you, like all, for doing so. You really think that makes you special and a cut above others? Come on dude, you can't be serious!

[VFFSSGT]

People can argue till their blue in the face about how important PT is, but the fact remains that it will FOREVER be second to your job.

Not necessarily, it is probably more on an equal playing field. If you cannot do your job or get to your job because you are not fit then you are not doing your job. It is not always just about your job.

Went to an enlisted call not too long ago. Apparently not too far in the distant there was this newly promoted female SMSgt at Balad that could not walk about 1,200 feet without sitting down and resting. The person that noticed her did some research and her PT score was 18 and some change. She was sent home from her deployment. Her home unit tried to push back saying you cannot send her home because it would destroy her career and she was their "all-star" SNCO... Needless to say, she was sent home.

Just one of many examples I have seen or heard about it people incapable of performing because of lack of fitness.



I understand the importance of the Whole Airman concept but PT, volunteering, and off duty education are not more important then the job you were given. Honestly if I see more then two volunteer bullets on someones EPR then I know they havnt been doing their job well enough to fill out the paper work, and will be marked down for it.

Not necessarily true, there are people who do things after duty hours, which do not affect what they are or are not doing at work. Granted there are some who volunteer at work more than they do work, but you cannot group everyone into one category and mark everyone down for that.

[VFFSSGT]

OK, I'll catch that dare - you don't fit the whole person concept, there killer. And, that is an obvious fact. You say the you already volunteered to give your life, limbs, and etc to your country and its defense. Brav-feakin'-o, man! You really are better than the rest of us who did not do that :) Get my point?

Everyone volunteered their life, limbs, etc to their country in its defense...you're not special on this - though I applaud you, like all, for doing so. You really think that makes you special and a cut above others? Come on dude, you can't be serious![/COLOR]

He does have some flawed statements...but he is on point about the awards system being a joke along with the EPR.

[Combat correspondent]

Apparently not too far in the distant there was this newly promoted female SMSgt at Balad that could not walk about 1,200 feet without sitting down and resting. The person that noticed her did some research and her PT score was 18 and some change. She was sent home from her deployment. Her home unit tried to push back saying you cannot send her home because it would destroy her career and she was their "all-star" SNCO... Needless to say, she was sent home.

Good God, Allah and Buddha! Harpoon that freakin' whale. Don't just send her to her home unit - demote her to TSgt and force retire her :)

[Combat correspondent]

He does have some flawed statements...but he is on point about the awards system being a joke along with the EPR.

Yes, he was indeed. I just got stuck on his life, limb, etc. number....jeez, that is like every member of every branch of the DoD, every police officer, firefighter, EMT, blah, blah, blah.... yeah, that makes him a cut above what? A welfare recipient or lobbyist maybe :)

[imnohero]

SMSgt at Balad that could not walk about 1,200 feet without sitting down and resting. The person that noticed her did some research and her PT score was 18 and some change.

I occassionally saw people like this when I was a bike tester. Just getting on the bike made their heart rate shoot up to 150 or more. Just plain out of shape.

Back then, there was no real emphasis on fitness and I'd see the person again, 3 months later, failing the test again.

I'm personally glad to see some more emphasis on fitness, but if leadership isn't going to follow up and PUNISH those that don't follow the program (including commanders) I'm not really sure we are better off than we were before.

[mel44]

Yes, he was indeed. I just got stuck on his life, limb, etc. number....jeez, that is like every member of every branch of the DoD, every police officer, firefighter, EMT, blah, blah, blah.... yeah, that makes him a cut above what? A welfare recipient or lobbyist maybe :)

Do I count too because I work in Max security???

[Lang]

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2008/04/airforce_fat_AFMC_042808w/

" More than 12 percent of AFMC airmen are considered obese by clinical standards, while another 46 percent are overweight, according to statistics from the Air Force surgeon general."

Looks like the AF has a weight problem.

Fat assedness causes a lot of medical problems. You really don't think it effects the mission that so many Air Force people are out of shape certified fat ass's? Talk to some medical people- do a little research on the medical effects of being a fat ass.

The with stats like the above- it seems to me that Air Force needs more PT not less.

“We have noted some deploying airmen who struggle and suffer physically because they are unable to meet long-established fitness standards, placing safe mission accomplishment at risk,” AFMC Vice Commander Lt. Gen. Terry Gabreski said in a statement. “This is unacceptable.”

[sigecaps]

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2008/04/airforce_fat_AFMC_042808w/

" More than 12 percent of AFMC airmen are considered obese by clinical standards, while another 46 percent are overweight, according to statistics from the Air Force surgeon general."

Looks like the AF has a weight problem.

Fat assedness causes a lot of medical problems. You really don't think it effects the mission that so many Air Force people are out of shape certified fat ass's? Talk to some medical people- do a little research on the medical effects of being a fat ass.

The with stats like the above- it seems to me that Air Force needs more PT not less.

“We have noted some deploying airmen who struggle and suffer physically because they are unable to meet long-established fitness standards, placing safe mission accomplishment at risk,” AFMC Vice Commander Lt. Gen. Terry Gabreski said in a statement. “This is unacceptable.”

The question you fail to ask yourself is how did they determine who is obese and overweight. The answer is through the body mass index. When citing the 12% obese statistic, everyone seems to leave this important piece out, presumably because everyone knows BMI is bullshit.

[VFFSSGT]

I have read many analysis that suggest BMI is obsolete; however, these stats seem to be consistent with what I have personally seen over the years. If anyone tried to argue there is not a somewhat significant "lard-butt" problem, I would have to say they have a sheltered AF life - maybe sleeping on the job in the silos.

[sigecaps]

I have read many analysis that suggest BMI is obsolete; however, these stats seem to be consistent with what I have personally seen over the years. If anyone tried to argue there is not a somewhat significant "lard-butt" problem, I would have to say they have a sheltered AF life - maybe sleeping on the job in the silos.

You don't even need to read many analysis to know BMI is bullshit. Here's how you know... The "study" found that 58% of people in the Air Force have a "weight problem." Now take a look around your squadron. Do six out of ten people look like they have a weight problem?

[technomage1]

You don't even need to read many analysis to know BMI is bullshit. Here's how you know... The "study" found that 58% of people in the Air Force have a "weight problem." Now take a look around your squadron. Do six out of ten people look like they have a weight problem?

We have 9 people in my shop at a deployed location right now. 4 are overweight, 1 busts his BMI due to being a lifter, 1 is skinny as a rail but has trouble with the PT test, and the others meet standards.

So yeah, I worry about 5 folks in the shop, the overweight ones and the skinny guy. I work with them for the brief time that I have them, but as they come from all over the AF, this indicates that we have a problem.

[Lang]

BMI is a clinical standard is it perfect no. Some's body builders, the elderly and some other body types may not give a good indication of obesity levels via BMI

ABSTRACT: BACKGROUND: Excess body fat is a major risk factor for disease primarily due to its endocrine activity. In recent years several criteria have been introduced to evaluate this factor. Nevertheless, treatment need is currently assessed only on the basis of an individual's Body Mass Index (BMI), calculated as body weight (in kg obesity ) divided by height in m2. The aim of our study was to determine whether application of the BMI, compared to adiposity-based criteria, results in underestimation of the number of subjects needing lifestyle intervention. METHODS: We compared treatment need based on BMI classification with four adiposity-based criteria: percentage body fat (%BF), considered both alone and in relation to metabolic syndrome risk (MS), waist circumference (WC), as an index of abdominal fat, and Body Fat Mass Index (BFMI, calculated as fat mass in kg divided by height in m2) in 63 volunteers (23 men and 40 women, aged 20 - 65 years). RESULTS: According to the classification based on BMI, 6.3% of subjects were underweight, 52.4% were normal weight, 30.2% were overweight, and 11.1% were obese. Agreement between the BMI categories and the other classification criteria categories varied; the most notable discrepancy emerged in the underweight and overweight categories. BMI compared to almost all of the other adiposity-based criteria, identified a lower percentage of subjects for whom treatment would be recommended. In particular, the proportion of subjects for whom clinicians would strongly recommend weight loss on the basis of their BMI (11.1%) was significantly lower than those identified according to WC (25.4%, p=0.004), %BF (28.6%, p=0.003), and MS (33.9%; p=0.002). CONCLUSION: The use of the BMI alone, as opposed to an assessment based on body composition, to identify individuals needing lifestyle intervention may lead to unfortunate misclassifications. Population-specific data on the relationships between body composition, morbidity, and mortality are needed to improve the diagnosis and treatment of at-risk individuals.

According to this medical study the BMI gives a low reading of obesity rate's. So the BMI may not be totally accurate - it may be low. Do you really believe that the Air Force does not have a weight problem? Do you really believe that obesity rates in the Air Force does not have a effect on the overall health of the force?

"BMI compared to almost all of the other adiposity-based criteria, identified a lower percentage of subjects for whom treatment would be recommended."

The question you fail to ask yourself is- what are your qualifications to question a medical standard used by the Air Force Surgeon General ?

Is BMI perfect no- is it a useful tool and a effective indicator of Obesity rates -yes

"46 percent of the Air Force Members are overweight, 12 percent are obese according to statistics from the Air Force Surgeon General."

[sigecaps]

Do you really believe that the Air Force does not have a weight problem? Do you really believe that obesity rates in the Air Force does not have a effect on the overall health of the force?

I didn't say that. I said six out of ten people in the Air Force don't have a wight problem. I know we have people in the Air Force who are overweight/obese, but I don't think it's as bad as this "study" suggests. The military is disproportionately filled with body builder / athletic types of bodies, which we know BMI doesn't accurately measure.

[imnohero]

According to this medical study the BMI gives a low reading of obesity rate's.

Sorry, but that is NOT what that says. It says that used alone BMI may underestimate those needing lifestyle/medical intervention because (the most important line in the entire abstract): "Excess body fat is a major risk factor for disease."

According to THAT medical study, I bet if I looked, I'd find a different medical study that says BMI overestimates obesity.

[fufu]

Heres a question:

Back when we had weight standards, my max was 198. I am under that maximum weight, but my BMI still shows me at "overweight". Does that mean I'll be punished b/c I don't weigh 174(the magic number to get into ideal weight)? In BMT, I weighed 177.....at the end. I've always been "overweight". I doubt that I will ever weigh 170 again.

[BTDTNM]

Are these the same 'medical experts' who have declared anything more than 3 beers at a time is "binge drinking"?

This may be part of the problem.

[Combat correspondent]

Are these the same 'medical experts' who have declared anything more than 3 beers at a time is "binge drinking"?

This may be part of the problem.

Yeah really! I guess I binge drink every time I BBQ :)

[CMSBROWN]

CM - deep cleansing breaths - in - out, in - out. It will be ok - Everyone has a secret love for the AF. They are the cool and dignified.


WOOOOOOSSSSSSAAAAAAAAAAA! I fell much better now. LMAO!

[wx4life]

roflmao are you saying a person's discipline goes down the drain the heavier they are? are you saying good order and morale is tremendously effected when squadron members get heavier? wtf are you smoking? I have seen morale go very low because of the perception of an unprofessional relationship, I HAVE SEEN GOOD ORDER AND DISCIPLINE GO REAL LOW because a SSGT decided to mess with an under age child at okinawa which HELPED to cause a island wide curfew!!! HOWEVER I CAN DEFINATELY say that I HAVE NEVER EVVVVVVVVVVVVER seen morale, good order or discipline go down because of someone's weight!! I also never once saw a person's job be impacted to the degree that they physically unable to continue their job because of their weight or pt score. Every person I know who had PT issues were damn good at their jobs.

So what is your excuse? You say you are mentally sharp and physically quick because you work out but when you said "HELL KNOW!!" You meant "HELL NO" didn't ya? Right thats what I thought. ROFLMAO!!!!

[BRUWIN]

THEY REPRESENTED THE AIRFORCE JUST AS GOOD AS ANY FORMATION (MADE UP OF SUPER FIT MARATHON RUNNERS) COULD HAVE EVER DONE! .

To be honest...I didn't even know the AF had a Sumo team but I really think the Marathon team would have been a better fit when you consider the occasion.

[mel44]

roflmao are you saying a person's discipline goes down the drain the heavier they are? are you saying good order and morale is tremendously effected when squadron members get heavier? wtf are you smoking? I have seen morale go very low because of the perception of an unprofessional relationship, I HAVE SEEN GOOD ORDER AND DISCIPLINE GO REAL LOW because a SSGT decided to mess with an under age child at okinawa which HELPED to cause a island wide curfew!!! HOWEVER I CAN DEFINATELY say that I HAVE NEVER EVVVVVVVVVVVVER seen morale, good order or discipline go down because of someone's weight!! I also never once saw a person's job be impacted to the degree that they physically unable to continue their job because of their weight or pt score. Every person I know who had PT issues were damn good at their jobs.

So what is your excuse? You say you are mentally sharp and physically quick because you work out but when you said "HELL KNOW!!" You meant "HELL NO" didn't ya? Right thats what I thought. ROFLMAO!!!!

No I meant Hell Know! As in get in the KNOW!!! It's not a observation it's a fact!!! Your making excuses! Bad behavior has absolutely nothing to do with being physically fit. It doesn't matter how your observations seem to you. It is a clinical, medical fact. Are you a medical doctor? Are you a psychologist? If not then put down the junk food, put on you PTs and get to work.

[BRUWIN]

Every person I know who had PT issues were damn good at their jobs.



If if anybody don't believe that than just ask them....they'll tell you.

[mel44]

TRUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUE DAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTT! :)

Whatever happened to that show...Jake and the Fat Man?

Owwww my gawd I remember that :( We are old!!! Class of 82 myself!!! But you know what? I can still do 5 in 1....... This young bunch sits in front of that dam TV playing video and their bodies are suffering. the kids don't do PE and sports like we ust to in school. I have my last 2 in high school. When I go to that campus there are more obese teenagers than I ever remember. What was obese in our day is now just pudgy. Sad, but my bunch is forced! My oldest daughter in in the army and fit. My next one is a marathon runner and finishing her degree physical fitness. My next one stays pregnant so she is in a perpetual state of pudgy. The last two do modeling and sports. For us being fit is as important as education. What's the difference in a great education if you die from heart disease!

[CMSBROWN]

Owwww my gawd I remember that :( We are old!!! Class of 82 myself!!! But you know what? I can still do 5 in 1....... This young bunch sits in front of that dam TV playing video and their bodies are suffering. the kids don't do PE and sports like we ust to in school. I have my last 2 in high school. When I go to that campus there are more obese teenagers than I ever remember. What was obese in our day is now just pudgy. Sad, but my bunch is forced! My oldest daughter in in the army and fit. My next one is a marathon runner and finishing her degree physical fitness. My next one stays pregnant so she is in a perpetual state of pudgy. The last two do modeling and sports. For us being fit is as important as education. What's the difference in a great education if you die from heart disease!

True...I have seen it all and heard it all. Society makes up more excuses as to why not to then to just do it! LOL! Get it..Just Do It! - Nike slogan!.. I have one left at home and she is 11. Skinny as a rail...just how she is...LOL! Feed her as the day is long and doesn't gain any weight....motab as fast as a humming bird. But you and I have to get out and work it atleaast 3 times a week if not more to stay fit. Three times a week really isn't that hard if you ask me....hell the Video Gen-X peeps can even get that Wii Fit! I have that too....fun as heck and will work you. Again...society looks for to many reasons why not too. Got 7 kids of my own....4 grand daughters and two grand sons....and those are hard enough to keep up with all day. LOL! Thank god they live out of state. LOL!

[mel44]

True...I have seen it all and heard it all. Society makes up more excuses as to why not to then to just do it! LOL! Get it..Just Do It! - Nike slogan!.. I have one left at home and she is 11. Skinny as a rail...just how she is...LOL! Feed her as the day is long and doesn't gain any weight....motab as fast as a humming bird. But you and I have to get out and work it atleaast 3 times a week if not more to stay fit. Three times a week really isn't that hard if you ask me....hell the Video Gen-X peeps can even get that Wii Fit! I have that too....fun as heck and will work you. Again...society looks for to many reasons why not too. Got 7 kids of my own....4 grand daughters and two grand sons....and those are hard enough to keep up with all day. LOL! Thank god they live out of state. LOL!


James started this Yoga program in Afghanistan and WoW!!! He came back, his shoulders look like a truck!!!! I haven't got brave enough to give it a try, I'm more the runner type.

We have 7 natural, 5 girls and 2 boys, 3 married in, 3 granddaughters and 1 VERY spoiled grandson. Twins on the way sighhhhhhh........ I have put them all on reproduction freeze until we get these twins here. It is a good thing to be in shape they would kill me otherwise. I had 2 of them deployed last year as well as James so we were baby land here at home. How do you get them to move???? LOL...:D

[CMSBROWN]

James started this Yoga program in Afghanistan and WoW!!! He came back, his shoulders look like a truck!!!! I haven't got brave enough to give it a try, I'm more the runner type.

We have 7 natural, 5 girls and 2 boys, 3 married in, 3 granddaughters and 1 VERY spoiled grandson. Twins on the way sighhhhhhh........ I have put them all on reproduction freeze until we get these twins here. It is a good thing to be in shape they would kill me otherwise. I had 2 of them deployed last year as well as James so we were baby land here at home. How do you get them to move???? LOL...:D

They do it on their own....Oldest lives in Iowa...managing partner in Texas Roadhouse..one daughter moved out there with them...others just moved out on there own live local, one daughter lives in Kansas...son joined the Army...is a Ft Bliss and have one at home...only in 6th grade....still have a ways. LOL!

But gotta love the grand kids....they are freakin awesome...like having kids all over again and you can send them home! LMAO!

[mel44]

They do it on their own....Oldest lives in Iowa...managing partner in Texas Roadhouse..one daughter moved out there with them...others just moved out on there own live local, one daughter lives in Kansas...son joined the Army...is a Ft Bliss and have one at home...only in 6th grade....still have a ways. LOL!

But gotta love the grand kids....they are freakin awesome...like having kids all over again and you can send them home! LMAO!

Yes and amen!!! Mine leave but they come back dragging some freak of nature! I got one here in college at Austin Peay and 2 left at home, Jr and Sr, My last three are a year apart so they have all kinda got big at once. We lost our second son to crib death and had my daughter a year later. We thought we were through and 5 years later accidentally got another one. There was such a age gap that we thought we would have one more for her to grow up with and my husband really wanted to try for another boy. So one year and 3 days later Elizabeth was born. In the hospital my husband looked at me with that "come on baby" look, so I told him one more time (he really wanted a son). So 1 year and 3 months later Meg was born. I told him to stay the hell away from me and get a dog!!!!! He passed away 5 years ago and James and I have blended all these kids together (he has 2). It's a party for the most part. They are all good kids. My oldest son is mine from my first marriage, He and his wife are both in the reserves. Chad was a Rakkasan during the initial invasion of Iraq but decided to get out and go to school but as it goes he got called up last year as well as Glenna. They are both home now so things have settled down a bit.
I do love those grandkids! They make all the teenage years worth the fight! With the added bonus of getting to see my kids get what they deserve!

[CMSBROWN]

Yes and amen!!! Mine leave but they come back dragging some freak of nature! I got one here in college at Austin Peay and 2 left at home, Jr and Sr, My last three are a year apart so they have all kinda got big at once. We lost our second son to crib death and had my daughter a year later. We thought we were through and 5 years later accidentally got another one. There was such a age gap that we thought we would have one more for her to grow up with and my husband really wanted to try for another boy. So one year and 3 days later Elizabeth was born. In the hospital my husband looked at me with that "come on baby" look, so I told him one more time (he really wanted a son). So 1 year and 3 months later Meg was born. I told him to stay the hell away from me and get a dog!!!!! He passed away 5 years ago and James and I have blended all these kids together (he has 2). It's a party for the most part. They are all good kids. My oldest son is mine from my first marriage, He and his wife are both in the reserves. Chad was a Rakkasan during the initial invasion of Iraq but decided to get out and go to school but as it goes he got called up last year as well as Glenna. They are both home now so things have settled down a bit.
I do love those grandkids! They make all the teenage years worth the fight! With the added bonus of getting to see my kids get what they deserve!

Oh isnt that the truth...we tell our kids....you are getting paid back for the way you acted. LOL!

[mel44]

I can't even get the words out. I just smile and enjoy as they clean peanut butter off the wall and out of the i-pod connectors. I have 3 of my grand babies that are toddlers. Independently each one of their parents decided they were not going to use a playpen. They declared they were not going to "cage" their children. they wanted them to be free and independent. We laughed and laughed and bought the new kind that looks like a play yard. We had it here for about a week and haven't seen it since. They don't leave home without it!!!! You gotta love em.......

[sweatyAZ]

Not necessarily, it is probably more on an equal playing field. If you cannot do your job or get to your job because you are not fit then you are not doing your job. It is not always just about your job.

I respectfuly disagree, they are no where near being on equal ground. The flight line is a very physical intensive area of work, and yes we do have our "out of shape" people like everyone else, but I have never seen someone not able to do their job because they are to fat. Your job is what you signed up for, the PT just comes along with it. As I said before your job is 80% of whats important, the other 20% is all the other EPR fluff. Its always about your job, 24/7!


Not necessarily true, there are people who do things after duty hours, which do not affect what they are or are not doing at work. Granted there are some who volunteer at work more than they do work, but you cannot group everyone into one category and mark everyone down for that.

Oh yes I can, I am a NCO after all. If you need to put in extra fluff you did in your off duty time then what you did at your actual job then hell yes your getting marked down for it. You have an entire year to get bullets for your EPR, and you fail to do so? Damn right your getting marked down. I recently had an Airman who was a constant 90 and above in PT, volunteered his butt off, and went to school after work. However he couldnt do his job and is now out for it. Take a wild guess how many times his PT test, volunteer work, or class room work came up durring the entire process? Not even once.

.

[Your_Name_Here]

I respectfuly disagree, they are no where near being on equal ground. The flight line is a very physical intensive area of work, and yes we do have our "out of shape" people like everyone else, but I have never seen someone not able to do their job because they are to fat. Your job is what you signed up for, the PT just comes along with it. As I said before your job is 80% of whats important, the other 20% is all the other EPR fluff. Its always about your job, 24/7!



Oh yes I can, I am a NCO after all. If you need to put in extra fluff you did in your off duty time then what you did at your actual job then hell yes your getting marked down for it. You have an entire year to get bullets for your EPR, and you fail to do so? Damn right your getting marked down. I recently had an Airman who was a constant 90 and above in PT, volunteered his butt off, and went to school after work. However he couldnt do his job and is now out for it. Take a wild guess how many times his PT test, volunteer work, or class room work came up durring the entire process? Not even once.

.

AMEN sweaty!!!:D

[BadHairCut]

I hate to bring this thread back on topic, but...

There’s really nothing wrong with our PT program in itself. The problems we currently have with this PT issue can be traced to two things: (lack of) personal responsibly and leadership accountability.

The personal responsibility part is obvious, in order to improve one’s fitness, one has to get up and do something about it...if one only had the time, which is where the leadership accountabilty part comes in

As for leadership accountability, The Audit Agency report cites a lack of leadership accountability in the program; commanders did not support the program by not allowing personnel time to participate, and leaders did not ensure PT test administrators were effectively managing the program.

So what does the AF plan to do about this lack of accountability? Will these commanders who frankly, are blatantly defying directives by not allowing their subordinates to partake in PT, be disciplined? Not likely.

Many of these leaders are under intense pressure to perform for THEIR bosses with extremely limited resources. Will Wing Kings ever learn to accept reduced productivity so base personnel can perform AF-Mandated PT? Does the AF understand that sorties may have to be reduced in order to brag about a truly ‘fit force’? Has anybody tried telling Daddy AF that they can’t have their cake and eat it too; in order to have a kick-arse hoo-ah PT program that EVERYONE can participate in, they’ll have to cut some slack elsewhere?

Here’s an Idea….Instead of making personal PT scores count towards an individual’s promotion, (as some here have suggested), have AVERAGE UNIT PT scores count toward the commanders’ promotions. Maybe then, they’ll find the time to allow their units to run PT.

[TRDL]

The problems we currently have with this PT issue can be traced to two things: (lack of) personal responsibly and leadership accountability.


There's got to be more to it than that. While a 100% PT is great, the regs say, 75% is what you're aiming at. Anything else is above and beyond. The publications they've put out say that both 99% of people are passing, IIRC that's waviers included, and that there's still fat people out there.

That means something is wrong with the PT program. It might be life style, no matter how much I run, if I eat more calories than I burn I'm not going to get skinnier. It might be that some of the standards are not the best to be used in determining overall fitness. It might be that there really isn't enough time in the day for everyone to make workouts a good habit.

Personally, I think they've focused on the wrong areas. I think if they want us fit, they should be working on total body fitness, not just how fast you run and how big your gut is. I know, there are correlations to fat and medical problems that increase as you age, regardless, it is possible to be an unfit <32 inch waisted person.

[BRUWIN]

Here’s an Idea….Instead of making personal PT scores count towards an individual’s promotion, (as some here have suggested), have AVERAGE UNIT PT scores count toward the commanders’ promotion.

With the CC we we had in Germany...If this policy had been implemented at the unit I was a part of we all would have been some cheese cake eatin mo-fo's. Well...judging by our PT stats at the time some of us already were but that's besides the point.

[DannyJ]

Ok, I have been in the AF for all of 22 months, but am a 3rd generation airman and have plenty to say about the current state of affairs, ESPECIALLY PT.

I am absolutly appauled at the lack of mission focus in the Air Force today. EPR's, BTZ, award packages, etc are more of a joke than a realistic reward for hard work. Most airmen that win this packages (note I did get BTZ, just to mention I understand the importance of playing the game) are the airman that have almost no knowledge of their primary function within there AFSC, meaning they spend more time at school, volunteering, and at PT than doing their JOB. How about some focus on the mission. Are we not a country/ military at war?

We are indeed a military, and should be a bit more concerned with that. Open ranks should be conducted on a regular basis. Many of the substandard airman get away with murder with their uniforms because no one wants to correct them on it, laxidasical attitudes by NCO's are mostly to blame, but leadership needs to get involved (open ranks, dropping by work sections randomly, etc) in making sure standards are met. When was the last time you were in a formation? I can tell you the last time I was in formation was OVER a year ago, which I understand is not beyond the norm.

Here's a modest suggestion to solve the whole PT issue. Load up an airman with a full ruck sack, M16, and battle rattle then have them run a mile. Should they complete without falling, walking, or being injured, they pass. No more measurements, just a realistic look at what should be the minimum to be expected of any airman. This also would solve the problem of the 4'10, 90lb airman getting a 90 on their PT test. I gurentee the 6'5", 220lb, 42 year old master that can do it is far more capable of going to war than the prior...

What happened to working hard and common sense approach to problems?

[Combat correspondent]

Word! The Corps is moving away from a PT standard just to be doing PT and moving toward how the PT actually affects them in combat. Lets fireman carry someone of equal weight (+/- a given standard) and run with them. Lets do PT related to what it takes to work on a 140degree flightline in Qatar or strapped with a sh!t-ton of gear and humping the mountains of Afghanistan. If you can do both of the above things - you're good to go!

Betcha f@t-a$$ Gen. Mosely could do neither.

[DannyJ]

CC i have to say that from your prior post your approach is a bit harsh. I don't think regular blues inspections are necessary for your subordinates at the element level, flight and above is definately a necessity however. As a supervisor (take with a grain of salt, I'm way old for a SrA) issues should be handled on a need be basis with a very strong hand. Reward those that meet the standards by not hassling them, punish those who don't. Preventative maint. is one thing, but don't mess with what works, that's what got us in the mess we're presently in.

[Combat correspondent]

CC i have to say that from your prior post your approach is a bit harsh. I don't think regular blues inspections are necessary for your subordinates at the element level, flight and above is definately a necessity however. As a supervisor (take with a grain of salt, I'm way old for a SrA) issues should be handled on a need be basis with a very strong hand. Reward those that meet the standards by not hassling them, punish those who don't. Preventative maint. is one thing, but don't mess with what works, that's what got us in the mess we're presently in.

I see your point. Still, everyone seems to like it. They believe this sort of thing was missing from their professional lives. Additionally, I now find members buddy checking each other at random and all the time. It is becoming a common occurrence to walk into a room and see a member cutting or burning a string off another member's uniform. Its spreading and helping us. :)

[TRDL]

Do they like it because they think that open ranks are necessary for the military, or do they like it because their leaders are showing interest in their well being, capablities, and giving them a chance to improve themselves? Would you get similar results with performence based interviews from leaders who know what they're talking about and help airmen do their jobs better?

[fufu]

Here's a modest suggestion to solve the whole PT issue. Load up an airman with a full ruck sack, M16, and battle rattle then have them run a mile. Should they complete without falling, walking, or being injured, they pass. No more measurements, just a realistic look at what should be the minimum to be expected of any airman. This also would solve the problem of the 4'10, 90lb airman getting a 90 on their PT test. I gurentee the 6'5", 220lb, 42 year old master that can do it is far more capable of going to war than the prior...

I like your suggestion, but if you think the whining from the big folks is bad....the whining from the "little" people would be HUGE under your suggestion.

I can hear it now:
What? I have to work at fitness? Thats unfair! I just want to point at the fat bodies and say how unfit they are!....

They might have to actually see how the other half lives.

[Combat correspondent]

Do they like it because they think that open ranks are necessary for the military, or do they like it because their leaders are showing interest in their well being, capablities, and giving them a chance to improve themselves? Would you get similar results with performence based interviews from leaders who know what they're talking about and help airmen do their jobs better?

I doubt it. We have a 2 butter bars, a SrA an A1C and an Amn - all 5 of them want discipline and entered with a mindset of expeditionary warriors - times are changing. I am an E-6 (TSgt) and had many closed-door discussions with the 2nd lieutenants. Sometimes, I've been pretty raunchy with them. No one sees and it is behind closed doors but they seem grateful for NCOs who will put the smack down on them. Don't take this comment wrong.

One of them told me he had many NCOs at OTS and none of them ever put him, or the other candidates in their places - rather milked subjects with them. I think this is wrong and sort of goes back to what I said about open ranks. They (they meaning all junior Airmen - enlisted and officers) want to have strong leadership.

I am sure this will garner many replies that NCOs don't lead CGOs, blah, blah, blah. Please try to see past what the book says and look at what is "honestly" required of NCOs to make this AF function flawlessly and you'll agree.

[HARRISNA]

So I just got off six years active duty with a very high ops tempo and 5 day a week PT unit and am not in the reserves and on my last unit training assembly we were told that we were NOT allowed to do PT duirng duty hours becuase we could get hurt. This was the message we recevied from legal. Initally we reuqest to do PT to start conditoning for a possible deployment So obvioulsy the AF wants only active duty to be physically fit. I do not understand this nonsense! If reservist are still required to pass an annual PT test and PT is on an EPR then why can't we conduct PT during out UTA's?

[Combat correspondent]

I'd like to add that I am, in no way, advocating a new chain of command like that other fool did. I just think it is each and every Staff and Senior NCO (E-6 through E-9) responsibility to mentor CGOs - especially the new Lts. So, yeah, this may take putting a private smack down on them too. It is not contrary to good order and discipline and will, with time, grow a crop of General Officers who have a vast respect for the NCO Corp.

Thanks for listening.

[Lefty]

Fair enough. Lets consider that some people commute - how about a 10 hour day. 50 hours a week is not extreme, nor is a burden on the family. Most civilian professional jobs work 50+ hours a week. Many nations, like Japan, have a 60 hour normal week. Whats the big deal?

I am married to a civilian and have 3 kids - one is a teen and another a tween. When I work 12 hour days - they stick with me. I guess they understand (or I should say, "I made them understand") that this is a family sacrifice and not mine to foot alone.

First of all, we are not just another nation, but the United States of America (I know you are aware of this). Second, working a set number of hours a week is not the answer, whereas getting your work done efficiently is. We need to take the televisions out of the office, and get the paperwork done by noon. After that, it is the supervisor's responsibility to PT his flight. I agree that a mandatory PT session should be instituted daily (depending on the job), and we should do formation runs, and have some unit pride. I think the USAF does not promote the team concept very much, and only looks out for the individual. If PT was instituted, it needs to be structured, but not to the point of impeding an actual workout. The hour setup of 15 minutes of stretching, circuit training, running a mile, then 15 minutes cool down does not work. I'm with you on your points about PT, but I do not think a unit should have the responsibility taken away from them. I also don't care how the other services do it, because I joined the USAF.

I also do not see where the purpose of the NCO is to mentor a young officer, but to help them out. An officer's mentor should be someone in the officer chain that is higher up than them (e.g. Lt to Capt, then up). NCOs do run the majority of things in a good squadron, and they work well with the officers. It also seems that you might be practicing one thing and doing another here. You talk about doing things by the book, and then you advocate your "closed-door" conversations as what is honestly happening and not by the book. You also call young Lieutenants "Butter Bars" as well. I would never let an NCO take me into a room alone and mentor me about how I should be an officer, because they really do not know how to do that. On the other hand, I would rather have an NCO/SNCO tell me how the processes work, and how best to do things in the squadron, but not being mentored on how to be an officer. I do not have any less respect for you as an NCO, and I think we could all agree that NCOs are the backbone of our service. Also, an E-6 is not a SNCO.

Here is what I found a job description to be for a TSgt, and I expect mine to uphold all of these qualities, but I don't see the mentoring part anywhere. "Technical Sergeant (TSgt). TSgts hold a 7-skill level and are qualified to perform highly complex technical duties in addition to providing supervision. They are responsible for the career development of all enlisted personnel under their supervision. They must obtain maximum performance from each subordinate and ensure the product or service is of the quality necessary for total mission effectiveness. TSgts will continuously strive to broaden and perfect their professional expertise and supervisory techniques. The official term of address is technical sergeant or sergeant. The average Air Force wide active duty time for promotion to the rank of Technical Sergeant is 14 years." (About.com)

[PFC2FGO]

First of all, we are not just another nation, but the United States of America (I know you are aware of this). Second, working a set number of hours a week is not the answer, whereas getting your work done efficiently is. We need to take the televisions out of the office, and get the paperwork done by noon. After that, it is the supervisor's responsibility to PT his flight. I agree that a mandatory PT session should be instituted daily (depending on the job), and we should do formation runs, and have some unit pride. I think the USAF does not promote the team concept very much, and only looks out for the individual. If PT was instituted, it needs to be structured, but not to the point of impeding an actual workout. The hour setup of 15 minutes of stretching, circuit training, running a mile, then 15 minutes cool down does not work. I'm with you on your points about PT, but I do not think a unit should have the responsibility taken away from them. I also don't care how the other services do it, because I joined the USAF.

I also do not see where the purpose of the NCO is to mentor a young officer, but to help them out. An officer's mentor should be someone in the officer chain that is higher up than them (e.g. Lt to Capt, then up). NCOs do run the majority of things in a good squadron, and they work well with the officers. It also seems that you might be practicing one thing and doing another here. You talk about doing things by the book, and then you advocate your "closed-door" conversations as what is honestly happening and not by the book. You also call young Lieutenants "Butter Bars" as well. I would never let an NCO take me into a room alone and mentor me about how I should be an officer, because they really do not know how to do that. On the other hand, I would rather have an NCO/SNCO tell me how the processes work, and how best to do things in the squadron, but not being mentored on how to be an officer. I do not have any less respect for you as an NCO, and I think we could all agree that NCOs are the backbone of our service. Also, an E-6 is not a SNCO.

Here is what I found a job description to be for a TSgt, and I expect mine to uphold all of these qualities, but I don't see the mentoring part anywhere. "Technical Sergeant (TSgt). TSgts hold a 7-skill level and are qualified to perform highly complex technical duties in addition to providing supervision. They are responsible for the career development of all enlisted personnel under their supervision. They must obtain maximum performance from each subordinate and ensure the product or service is of the quality necessary for total mission effectiveness. TSgts will continuously strive to broaden and perfect their professional expertise and supervisory techniques. The official term of address is technical sergeant or sergeant. The average Air Force wide active duty time for promotion to the rank of Technical Sergeant is 14 years." (About.com)

Amen, brother. I respect my NCOs, but they are in NO WAY qualified to mentor me on officership. It's my job to mentor the officers below me in the squadron. I expect them, the NCOs, to mentor the enlisted side of the house. I also need to know from NCOs how the processes work that are in place at any specific base. But, I certainly wouldn't allow them to take me into any room to have a "smackdown". That little foray would last about a microsecond!!!

[mfjdspence]

...We need to take the televisions out of the office, and get the paperwork done by noon. After that, it is the supervisor's responsibility to PT his flight. I agree that a mandatory PT session should be instituted daily (depending on the job), and we should do formation runs, and have some unit pride...

Uh...there are TV's in people's offices? I am totally in the wrong career field. In my 10 years, I have never seen a breakroom in our office space, and when it was there, we were always too busy to be even using the darn thing.

I disagree w/ the whole PT group jerk around thing. PT is now on my EPR and therefore my responsibility. Let me do my own PT as I see fit as I am the one who has to live in this body and knows what I need to be able to pass my scheduled and unscheduled tests. I don't need anyone of any age up there telling me how I should do this or that to be fit. Sure, get us all in a group, but after that....my responsiblity, just like taking a promotions test.

Formation runs are stupid as they do nothing aside from either run you too fast (short people) or too slow (tall people). Teamwork doesn't make me pass my fit test....so it doesn't apply here either.

The AF needs to figure out what the hell it wants from its people and stop being so shotgun in nature. In other words, clearly define what the goal is and lets move forward. I am tired of X being important today, and Y is tomorrow. How can anyone adequately prepare for anything if the goal line is constantly changing. Passing is Passing.

[Combat correspondent]

Uh...there are TV's in people's offices? I am totally in the wrong career field. In my 10 years, I have never seen a breakroom in our office space, and when it was there, we were always too busy to be even using the darn thing.

I disagree w/ the whole PT group jerk around thing. PT is now on my EPR and therefore my responsibility. Let me do my own PT as I see fit as I am the one who has to live in this body and knows what I need to be able to pass my scheduled and unscheduled tests. I don't need anyone of any age up there telling me how I should do this or that to be fit. Sure, get us all in a group, but after that....my responsiblity, just like taking a promotions test.

Formation runs are stupid as they do nothing aside from either run you too fast (short people) or too slow (tall people). Teamwork doesn't make me pass my fit test....so it doesn't apply here either.

The AF needs to figure out what the hell it wants from its people and stop being so shotgun in nature. In other words, clearly define what the goal is and lets move forward. I am tired of X being important today, and Y is tomorrow. How can anyone adequately prepare for anything if the goal line is constantly changing. Passing is Passing.


I'll repeat what I said for the both of you -

I am currently taking this approach with 2 butters. When I got to my current flight 2 years ago, I saw a separate butter (soon to be Capt, now) struggling and did the same with her.

In each of these 3 circumstances, they've all thanked me for being a good NCO (or as they said a 'real' NCO) as they NEVER had real NCOs in OTS or saw many when they first got here.

So, have your opinions - and believe what you will. But, so far I've batted 3 for 3 and the results and comments have been the same.

[Silver Fox]

Now will come the gropes and whines about maintenance and SF, etc...not having time! D@mn cry babies. I was maintenance and served 8 mos. as a SF augmentee....I'll tell you what...these bastards just need a boost in morale and some effective leadership and they could work the same shift as above - spread across 3 separate shifts. No problem! I guarantee it!

The problem is these lazy @ss people sit around for too much of their shifts whining about how they have to work a 12 hour shift - boo hoo! We all should work a 12 hours shift - and it should include PT, open ranks, etc. (as I mentioned above)!!!

I'm fine with this so long as it is actually a 12 hour shift, if I'm stuck for five hours after work dealing with reports... you can go to hell. I'm going to bed.

Now before you say I'm lazy, I've never scored below an 85 on a pt test and I find the time to work out, but the day I see a real 12 hour day in Security Forces.... I'll do cart wheels.

[mfjdspence]

I'll repeat what I said for the both of you -

I am currently taking this approach with 2 butters. When I got to my current flight 2 years ago, I saw a separate butter (soon to be Capt, now) struggling and did the same with her.

In each of these 3 circumstances, they've all thanked me for being a good NCO (or as they said a 'real' NCO) as they NEVER had real NCOs in OTS or saw many when they first got here.

So, have your opinions - and believe what you will. But, so far I've batted 3 for 3 and the results and comments have been the same.

Uh...never took issue w/ your NCO perspective spin what ever you want to call it. Just want the PT program to be dropped and take in account that now it is my responsiblity and therefore doesn't need monitoring aside from the checkup. After all, if passing a PT test is a sign of health (same as a doctor's visit) then I shouldn't need the whole squadron there to to make it happen. After all, my squadron isn't in the doc's office as I turn my head and cough...so why should it be any different? Fit to Fight is a scam...nothing more nothing less. It is nothing but a way to push the money spent on tomorrows ailments a little bit further down the road to help the AF avoid future costs. Well, I bet you if someone did a study about how much Fit to Fight has cost since its start, they would find their costs actually ballooned in the short and long run between long term injuries and ailments from the program to today's costs of injuries and even shift of emphasis on PT gear and the like and have not even saved a dime, but rather actually created another big $ program that now needs to be dropped or revamped beyond what is common sense....costing more money only to be dropped in 5 to 10 years by another budget crisis.

[CMSBROWN]

So I just got off six years active duty with a very high ops tempo and 5 day a week PT unit and am not in the reserves and on my last unit training assembly we were told that we were NOT allowed to do PT duirng duty hours becuase we could get hurt. This was the message we recevied from legal. Initally we reuqest to do PT to start conditoning for a possible deployment So obvioulsy the AF wants only active duty to be physically fit. I do not understand this nonsense! If reservist are still required to pass an annual PT test and PT is on an EPR then why can't we conduct PT during out UTA's?

If you dont mind finding out and passing along to me the LEGAL guidance or AFRCI that states such I would be interested in seeing that. But this is the first I heard of it. Our SVC squadron ensures the gym is open early for us. My squadron does PT every UTA.:cool:

[Career Maintainer]

I would like to see some basic changes that can be accomplished via a CSAF directive, similar to how "Blues Monday" was instituted. For example, a passing score should be required for PME, Promotion, PCS, TDY, Upgrade. etc. That could be solved overnight. It amazes me that you may attend PME and look like a duffle bag with a failing PT score. It should also be part of the EPR with a point’s breakdown, popular? No, but it will set people apart. Last, do away with the unit PT and make the standards and consequences high enough, People will have to figure out a way to stay in shape. I’m tired of the softball, think tank, study group approach to every minor issue the AF has. Set the standards high and let the people figure out a way to stay in shape.

[firebird]

Hate to start it with the preverbal, I have been in the Air Force for over 22 years and this is the worst I have ever seen it. But I can think of no other line other than General Patton’s "Nuts". I am extremely disappointed with the Air Force. First of all, I wish we would come back to caring about the Airman. When I first joined we were tested periodically for various cancers, PSA, high blood pressure, glaucoma, cholesterol, lung disease etc. This saved many a life by identifying potentially life threatening diseases in the early stages. It made sure our force was fit. Now, we no longer care about the actual health of an Airman, just whether he/she is skinny and can run a mile and a half. Let's go back to allowing the trained health professional judge the member’s fitness. Let's go back to early detection and taking care of the force. With a doctor evaluating an Airman’s physical fitness based on weight, height, blood pressure, body type and lab results it would eliminate all the problems plaguing the current and former fitness systems. If a doctor feels a member needs to exercise more or diet, then the doctor should be able to require the member with coordination of their commander to do it. If the member fails to progress then disciplinary actions should be taken. The current fitness test is plagued with problems. A male age 59 has to run as fast as an 18 year old female to score the same points. This is ridiculous. How is it we should have such a wide gap in our gender requirements. So a seasoned 59 year old male has to run faster than a skinny 18 year old female to achieve the same score. Why should there be any difference in fitness requirements for males and females. Our Command Chief who struggles to meet fitness standards because of his body type has been known for going out on ruck marches with our Security Forces and carrying the ruck sacks of both males and females who score over 90 on the test. He is an ex swat team leader and Capt with the City Police Department. A man with a wealth of knowledge, skills and ability. But he continually has the stress that he may be booted because of his score. Sure he is a little slower but he was not built as a runner. Instead his was built as an ox. I would prefer to keep him in the Air Force verses those who score high but lack knowledge and stamina. Another problem with the test is the so called crunch which is really a sit-up. Any civilian physician or physical therapist who deals with bulged disks will tell you the Air Force crunch is the worst exercise you can do for your back. It actually will cause damage. Another problem which the audits discovered but choose to ignore is the tremendous amount of cheating which goes on. I have seen it several times. Members doing push ups looking like the St Louis Arch just dipping their heads but yet it is counted as a push up. All this inflation skews the numbers. Now the Air Force wants to adjust based on the data collected. However, the data collected is ripe with inflation. Bottom line WE NEED TO START OVER and allow the DOCTORS to determine fitness. One last comment. I joined the Air Force not the Army or Marines because I knew I would struggle with their fitness standards. We are not the Army or Marines. We need to dump the in-lieu of missions and give the other services the manning to do their jobs. We need to refocus on our own missions in order to avoid continual problems as seen in the Nuclear mission. We need to develop fit standards based on position descriptions not on sex or appearance. We need to give all Airman to include Guard and Reserve the tools to get fit. It may cost money, perhaps one F22 but the Air Force would be stronger, better and more lethal than ever. We need the best and smartest Airman we can get not just marathon runners or Hollywood actors and actresses. I challenge you General Schwartz, not CMSgt McKinnley, to re-evaluate whether we care about the Airman and his/her health or just whether they look good in Blue's each Monday!

[mfjdspence]

God I hope that blood pressure never comes into the picture as w/ the jobs I have, regardless of my very high passing scores on the PT test, my BP tends to run high and that is even without the caffine in my system. More with less has definetly done a much larger detriment to my health than not exercising could have ever done. The only reason I am probably still walking around today is because I have been working out on my own to supplement the BS that most squadrons want to call a PT program...hence my firm belief in it being a self managed program and not squadron managed issue aside from the testing aspect.

One not to mention...being unable to pass the PT test does not mean you can not accomplish the mission. I would like for someone to tell me how I can see our sister services deploying members who obviously could never pass our current messed up PT test, but are still somehow able to sling that rucksack and perform their grueling duties.

Come AF...remove your head from your A$$ and stop being so into form and not so much about the substance of things. If you want your people to be healthy, you'll have them stop filling out online questionares about their health and have them spend an hour...yes and hour...with their doctor and getting to know their patient. Hell even 30 minutes would be better than the 15 we are alloted today. We are too much form and not enough substance...hence the new blues, ABU's, and PT uniforms. Same AF, different wrapper in the end. You can package us as low fat low calorie, but it doesn't change the fact that we have artifical sweeteniers running the show who care more about themselves getting that bullet on the OPR/EPR than about what kind of BS and problems it is going to cause the rest of us. Wake up and stop making policy for the sake of making policy. Focus on the basics and cut the rest of this garbage out...and for once when you say that you are going to cut the number of CBT's to complete a year actually mean it.

[Measure Man]

Hate to start it with the preverbal, I have been in the Air Force for over 22 years and this is the worst I have ever seen it. But I can think of no other line other than General Patton’s "Nuts".

that was General McAuliffe, not General Patton. :tongue:

[EclecticAngela684]

The Air Force stresses working out 3 times a week minimum but what about eating healthier as well? Every Base i have been to (all 4 of them) has had a Burger King, Taco Bell, and a Starbucks on it. What kind of message are we sending to ourselves and others by allowing this fast food monopoly to continue? We as a Military Organization need to concentrate on all aspects of our health, not just running and pushups/situps. We can start by getting rid of all these fast food places on Base and making basic nutrition classes through the HAWC part of Inprocessing at every Base to get the point across.

[mfjdspence]

Can we please just get back on topic!

Apparently there are about 3 schools of thought running around here:

1) Leave the PT program alone. It is fine like it is.
2) Make it harder than it currently is, something closer towards what other services are doing.
3) Leave the testing in place, but remove the need to have group PT.


Personally, I am a bit towards #3 as the unit PT program has never been...and never will be exactly what I like doing or what affects my body in a postitive way. I am not a huge fan of the one a$$hole who decides that they are going to be the cheerleader for the group. Typically they are either not in great physical shape or they are so worthless at work aside from volunteering themselves and their shops up for everything under the sun. You can probably tell...had my fill of those types.

Maybe we should vote, maybe we should go back to the way it was, maybe we need to do something different, but one thing is for certain, what is going on right now isn't where it needs to be. We are not the Army, Navy, or Marines. We are the Air Force and we have unique requirements that need to match what we actually do and what makes us who we are. If we start playing around in the so called drink mix too much we may end up souring what made us a great.

[BROKN]

There's more that needs fixing in the PT Program than for the healthy and deployable Airman versus the lazy and fat Airman; what about the ill individuals that still have to PT Test annually? You might argue that there are "waivers" and "profiles" for these things, but when you're in the Medical Evaluation Board (MEB) process it's because there is something seriously wrong with your health that jeapordizes your future in the Air Force. It's not simply that you will or won't get better; it's a condition that will make or break your career. The MEB process is a determination as to whether you are fit to serve, according to the guidelines listed in their AFI, in terms of the VA Schedule of Ratings. During that MEB process, physical limitations are imposed that significantly reduce your ability to exercise with any impact, especially with the possibility added medications that change the way your body metabolizes. The normal waiver for an MEB'd Airman is no lifting greater than 40 lbs, no pushing/pulling greater than 40 lbs, no heartrate greater than 120 bpm...where does that leave you for the PT Test? No situps, no pushups, no running, and possibly no bike test.

As a person in this position (after 12+ years of service, mind you), I am still subject to the same disciplinary actions as a healthy, deployable Airman with a currently solid future in the Air Force. When medications cause you to bloat or gain weight uncontrollably (for example: anti-depressants are famous for this), is it fair to use the abdominal circumference to score my PT? Even with the Component Exemption, unless you're skinny, you lose.

You might think that Abdominal Circumference should be waiverable, but according to the 10-248 you must still be scored on it annually. It is also virtually impossible to get a waiver/profile for it. The doctors cannot wiaver it anymore, and the HAWC has to go through an approval process with the AF422, routing it through the program manager in the Medical Group, in which this medical person has to approve it. Apparently, getting this waiver approved is about as likely to happen as a tooth extraction on a conscious shark that went smoothly. How does one exercise effectively enough to "pass" a PT exam when they are severly limited on which exercises they can do and how hard they can "push it"?

The AFI is in direct conflict with the medical board procedures (especially if you have to continually appeal at each level: PEB, IPEB, FPEB, to SAFPC) during which you will be waivered for everything else that may cause or further your injury/illness. And still during this time, I am further bombarded by the LOC, LOR, UIF, Control Roster, Demotion, Administrative Separation, HAWC education, and Fitness Review Panel actions that the fat and lazy Airmen face. It's not just healthy vs lazy, we ill personnel are being dragged through the mud, with no other fault than having become ill.

[mfjdspence]

There's more that needs fixing in the PT Program than for the healthy and deployable Airman versus the lazy and fat Airman; what about the ill individuals that still have to PT Test annually? You might argue that there are "waivers" and "profiles" for these things, but when you're in the Medical Evaluation Board (MEB) process it's because there is something seriously wrong with your health that jeapordizes your future in the Air Force. It's not simply that you will or won't get better; it's a condition that will make or break your career. The MEB process is a determination as to whether you are fit to serve, according to the guidelines listed in their AFI, in terms of the VA Schedule of Ratings. During that MEB process, physical limitations are imposed that significantly reduce your ability to exercise with any impact, especially with the possibility added medications that change the way your body metabolizes. The normal waiver for an MEB'd Airman is no lifting greater than 40 lbs, no pushing/pulling greater than 40 lbs, no heartrate greater than 120 bpm...where does that leave you for the PT Test? No situps, no pushups, no running, and possibly no bike test.

As a person in this position (after 12+ years of service, mind you), I am still subject to the same disciplinary actions as a healthy, deployable Airman with a currently solid future in the Air Force. When medications cause you to bloat or gain weight uncontrollably (for example: anti-depressants are famous for this), is it fair to use the abdominal circumference to score my PT? Even with the Component Exemption, unless you're skinny, you lose.

You might think that Abdominal Circumference should be waiverable, but according to the 10-248 you must still be scored on it annually. It is also virtually impossible to get a waiver/profile for it. The doctors cannot wiaver it anymore, and the HAWC has to go through an approval process with the AF422, routing it through the program manager in the Medical Group, in which this medical person has to approve it. Apparently, getting this waiver approved is about as likely to happen as a tooth extraction on a conscious shark that went smoothly. How does one exercise effectively enough to "pass" a PT exam when they are severly limited on which exercises they can do and how hard they can "push it"?

The AFI is in direct conflict with the medical board procedures (especially if you have to continually appeal at each level: PEB, IPEB, FPEB, to SAFPC) during which you will be waivered for everything else that may cause or further your injury/illness. And still during this time, I am further bombarded by the LOC, LOR, UIF, Control Roster, Demotion, Administrative Separation, HAWC education, and Fitness Review Panel actions that the fat and lazy Airmen face. It's not just healthy vs lazy, we ill personnel are being dragged through the mud, with no other fault than having become ill.

This is a very good point. Looks like we need to have more common sense from the medical side of the house helping shape the future PT program after all, a sick Airman can also do their job very effectively, just might not be able to PT test as when they are 100% healthy. It would be nice though if someone did a study to find out if there has been a sharp increase in unhealthy eating and workout habbits that can be directly attributed to the PT program/testing regimen. I am sure there was a sharp increase in eating disorders that are going reported and unreported.

My best wishes go out to and hope that you get well soon.

[WILDJOKER5]

I used to belive that there was no way for me to get down to a 32 inch waist being 6 foot 1. I now have come to realize that it is not about running or doing the organized PT sessions. For the past year being in Korea away for my wife, I started to eat healthier, getting out of my house and doing some physical activity on my own. In one year, I lost 40lbs and 5 inches, 39 to 34, off my waist because of playing sports and being active. There was organized PT 3 times a week, but that was not getting my heart rate up or burning the calories as much as when I was doing something I love doing, being competative. There are some people that running around in circles is competive to them, they are usually PTL's. But they think the rest of the world is racing around the track like they are and really, we arnt. It is like they are playing a basketball game against someone on the other side of the court who is shooting around and has no idea that they are in a game. PTLs are good for maybe one time a week to do something like aerobics just to let people get a structure work out, but the rest of the week, if there was a game or sport that everyone wanted to play, most people will try and will raise the heart rate. Running 3 times for 10 mins, burns the same amount of calories as 1 session of running for 30 mins.

If we really need to make our force look more presentable, we need to monitor how much and exactly what each person eats on a daily basis. Why do we have AAFES packed with baskin robins, BK, Anthony's and so on? Why do we give the lazy and fat people the opportunity to continue to be like that? It is like haveing the 0 tolorence for drug use, but still allow a drug pusher on base so everyone can go to and get their fix. The days I didnt want to excert myself fully in the PT session, I still ate healthy and furthered my overall health. Running is really the easy part, alot of people can start running a month before their test and pass, to get a good waist line takes constant work, I have been in PCSing and off my health diet and I look fat again in just 2 months.

[S97Batess]

God I hope that blood pressure never comes into the picture as w/ the jobs I have, regardless of my very high passing scores on the PT test, my BP tends to run high and that is even without the caffine in my system. More with less has definetly done a much larger detriment to my health than not exercising could have ever done. The only reason I am probably still walking around today is because I have been working out on my own to supplement the BS that most squadrons want to call a PT program...hence my firm belief in it being a self managed program and not squadron managed issue aside from the testing aspect.

One not to mention...being unable to pass the PT test does not mean you can not accomplish the mission. I would like for someone to tell me how I can see our sister services deploying members who obviously could never pass our current messed up PT test, but are still somehow able to sling that rucksack and perform their grueling duties.

Come AF...remove your head from your A$$ and stop being so into form and not so much about the substance of things. If you want your people to be healthy, you'll have them stop filling out online questionares about their health and have them spend an hour...yes and hour...with their doctor and getting to know their patient. Hell even 30 minutes would be better than the 15 we are alloted today. We are too much form and not enough substance...hence the new blues, ABU's, and PT uniforms. Same AF, different wrapper in the end. You can package us as low fat low calorie, but it doesn't change the fact that we have artifical sweeteniers running the show who care more about themselves getting that bullet on the OPR/EPR than about what kind of BS and problems it is going to cause the rest of us. Wake up and stop making policy for the sake of making policy. Focus on the basics and cut the rest of this garbage out...and for once when you say that you are going to cut the number of CBT's to complete a year actually mean it.

Right on target on all shots.....great comment.:cool:

[Dropdead]

First off I'd like to say hello to everyone, seeing how this is my first post here and everything. OK, on to business.

Yes, the PT program is broke. Lots of other stuff in the AF is too, as many of the tangential posters here have been quick to point out but I'll let sleepin' dogs lie for now. Here is what I don't like about AF PT:

1.) Uniforms: I understand the need for a standardized uniform but the polyester shirt/plastic pants combo we have going on right now makes any kind of organized PT session a pain in the ass for me. I know lots of folks who share this sentiment. The Air Force has now convened (yet another) uniform board to tell the top brass what the ditch-diggers have known since the new gear was rolled out a few years ago; it sucks to work out in. I'm personally looking forward to 2014 when the "new and improved" gear becomes available to purchase at Military Clothing (at the low, low price of $130 bucks for a full set!) Ugh. Can't we just get a cotton shirts and some lightweight, breathable bottoms with the AF logo screen printed on 'em?

2.) PT Test: It is a joke. We all know it. A minute to complete XX perfect push-ups and XX perfect crunches? A mile and a half run? I know guys who can breeze through the run but can't execute 10 textbook push-ups. On the flipside, I've seen folks dominate the muscular fitness portion but suffer on the run. Personally, I always thought the run should be a 2 mile, timed "GO" or "NO-GO" event. Push-ups are fine and dandy but why not give us two minutes complete them? Let's throw pull-ups, which are a much better indicator of upper body fitness than the push-up, into the PT Test while we are at it. I think a general restructuring of the PT test, retaining the core exercises we all know and love, would suit the AF needs just fine.

3.) The waist measurement: 28 inch waist? Not so much. Let's do away with this part altogether. Why should it matter if you have a 34 inch waist (as a male) if you can legitimately pass your PT test requirements? If the Air Force's goal is truly a "fit to fight" force, I believe that having challenging yet realistic PT standards will keep people in "fighting shape".

4.) Group PT: Organized PT sucks. Either it is too easy ("OK everyone let's stretch then play volleyball!") or people are struggling to keep up because it is too hard. There really doesn't seem to be a happy medium here. I would challenge senior AF leadership to develop official guidelines (notice I said GUIDELINES, not INSTRUCTIONS) for Group PT standards that commanders could work with and in turn develop EFFECTIVE Group PT programs tailored for the needs of a specific Wing, Group, Squadron, Flight, etc etc.

5.) Time for PT at work: This one I don't see as being feasible for the entire Air Force. There are plenty of AFSCs that just can't drop what they are doing, close up their shop, or relieve people from work to do PT during a normal shift. That is a fact. On the other hand, there are other AFSCs where PT time at work, if properly implemented, could work like gangbusters. Again, senior Air Force leaders should take a hard look at this rule and who it should apply to before they start hemming up EVERY Commander that CANNOT accomplish this without compromising Mission Readiness or degrading the effectiveness of their respective unit.

I could go on and on about other things that piss me off but maybe I should just look for another thread for that. :D

Thanks for reading!

[CrustySMSgt]

First off I'd like to say hello to everyone, seeing how this is my first post here and everything. OK, on to business.

I could go on and on about other things that piss me off but maybe I should just look for another thread for that. :D

Thanks for reading!


You're making sense so far... welcome!

[CMSBROWN]

I am kinda diggin the suggestion in the recent AF Times of the waist to height ratio. I think it is a more sensible measurement. The BMI measurement is BS IMO....those who workout and build muscle mass suffer from it.

[sigecaps]

I am kinda diggin the suggestion in the recent AF Times of the waist to height ratio. I think it is a more sensible measurement. The BMI measurement is BS IMO....those who workout and build muscle mass suffer from it.

The hilarious thing to me is that the waist measurement was supposed to be an alternative for measuring body fat, which every service is mandated to do by DoD, except the Air Force because we applied for a wavier and asked to use waist measurements instead. So if waist measurements aren't working, why come up with crazy formulas, why not just go back to measuring body fat? The caliper method is highly accurate, and takes not that much more time to do than a waist measurement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8x1rj3p-sI

[CMSBROWN]

The hilarious thing to me is that the waist measurement was supposed to be an alternative for measuring body fat, which every service is mandated to do by DoD, except the Air Force because we applied for a wavier and asked to use waist measurements instead. So if waist measurements aren't working, why come up with crazy formulas, why not just go back to measuring body fat? The caliper method is highly accurate, and takes not that much more time to do than a waist measurement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8x1rj3p-sI

I just went to WebMD and this is what it tells me...LMAO!

http://www.webmd.com/diet/calc-bmi-plus

Your Healthy Weight Range Is:
Between 125 and 169 pounds for your height of 5' 9"

Your healthy weight range is based on a healthy body mass index (BMI) of 18.5 to 24.9. The higher end of the range applies to people with more muscle mass and a larger bone structure.

Your Body Mass Index (BMI) is: 27.3
A BMI of 18.5 to 24.9 is considered healthy for adults. A BMI of 25 to 29.9 is considered overweight, while a BMI of 30 and above is considered obese. People with BMIs of 18.5 or less are considered underweight.

I am currently 5'9 and 185. When I hit the gym every day and worked out with free weights I went from 155 to 180-185 with the help of whey and creatine. Max benched 310, etc.

But if you look at the waist to height ratio on WebMD it says

Your Waist-to-Height Ratio is: 0.49
Your Body Shape Indicates: Healthy

A waist-to-height ratio under .50 is generally considered healthy. This ratio may give a more accurate assessment of health for people who are muscular or for women who have a "pear" rather then an "apple" body shape.

So what really gives... I agree measuring body fat might be the trick...I have no fat on my body except around my waist...and a small amount at that...

IMO...the BMI is skewd and inaccurate for that it does not take in to consideration for your ACTUALLY physique.

[SATINDLE]

If they are overweight, deploy them to the desert, they'll lose weight. What a bunch of whinners.

[splat]

I'm all for getting rid of the waist measurement for score on the PFT. There's nothing physical about it. The measurement is a "health assessment". They need to stick in with our annual PHA if they insist on keeping it.
I understand completely that the run is the best measurement of overall aerobic/cardivascular health. The question I have is; "Are we training marathon runners or combat Airmen that may have to ruck sack/IPE 40+ pound, carry weapons/ammo and may have to drag my ass out of the line fire if hell broke loose outside the wire?" I rather have the Airmen who can run a good 12 min, 1.5 mile that can bench at least their body weight and squat twice their body weight in the field any day versus a sickly looking Airmen with a BMI of 20 who can run like Gazelle.
Muscular Fitness should be weighted more on the PFT and I also like the AF Times height/body ratio for the waist measure (if they have to keep it for score). The our factor to consider, you can't expect a 45 year old, 6'6", SMSgt to have the same body comp as that 5'5", 18 year old Airmen. Height/weight/age has got to be a factor too.
Last thing - Everyone, and I mean everyone, has to sit through a healthy living or lifestyle class annually. In the last 50-60 years we have become a much too "fast food" society. All these refined fast food with major caloric intake values have taken a toll. Our bodies weren't meant for that kinda of abuse. If you like the fast food and you're wondering how come you got some "pudge" around your middle, think about it? And if your commander is smart, he/she would be tailoring the snacko to a healthier venue too.

my two cents....

splat

[splat]

I'm all for getting rid of the waist measurement for score on the PFT. There's nothing physical about it. The measurement is a "health assessment". They need to stick in with our annual PHA if they insist on keeping it.
I understand completely that the run is the best measurement of overall aerobic/cardivascular health. The question I have is; "Are we training marathon runners or combat Airmen that may have to ruck sack/IPE 40+ pound, carry weapons/ammo and may have to drag my ass out of the line fire if hell broke loose outside the wire?" I rather have the Airmen who can run a good 12 min, 1.5 mile that can bench at least their body weight and squat twice their body weight in the field any day versus a sickly looking Airmen with a BMI of 20 who can run like Gazelle.
Muscular Fitness should be weighted more on the PFT and I also like the AF Times height/body ratio for the waist measure (if they have to keep it for score). The our factor to consider, you can't expect a 45 year old, 6'6", SMSgt to have the same body comp as that 5'5", 18 year old Airmen. Height/weight/age has got to be considered in the factor too.
Last thing - Everyone, and I mean everyone, has to sit through a healthy living or lifestyle class annually. In the last 50-60 years we have become a much too "fast food" society. All these refined fast food with major caloric intake values have taken a toll. Our bodies weren't meant for that kinda of abuse. If you like the fast food and you're wondering how come you got some "pudge" around your middle, think about it? And if your commander is smart, he/she would be tailoring the snacko to a healthier venue too.

my two cents....

splat

[CrustySMSgt]

If they are overweight, deploy them to the desert, they'll lose weight. What a bunch of whinners.

You obviously haven't been to the desert recently; that used to be the case... but any more they feed you so much chow (at the established bases anyway) that people come back having GAINED weight.

if you're lazy at home, with the full attention of your direct supervision, you're going to be lazy while deployed with no one really paying attention.

[midway]

My 2 cents....
Ever since the introduction of that idiotic bike test circa-1992, the AF has wasted and expended FAR too much resources, time, effort, energy, money, etc, into PT. Nothing was broken that required fixing. IMHO, the PT "program" back then was fine -- the unit did a timed 1.5 mile run every year, there was a height/weight standard, people worked out on their own, and there was no such animal as a PT uniform. And guess what? We had a kick-ass AF that got the mission done and done right.

But, no, we had to f*** things up and establish a program when none was needed. So now every couple of years the leadership has to waste time, money, and resources to tinker/fix/revise the program which seems to end up making things worse and pleasing no one. We also had to get caught up in the current fad of every service having their own cute PT uniform. So now we're saddled with a God-awful designed POS that requires more wasted time to redesign.

I just wish the AF would take all the effort it puts into the PT program and direct into re-establishing decent medical care. There was a time, many many years ago, I actually saw an AF doc every year. Now I just interface with a computer.

[KT3]

The PT test overall is a failure. The standards prove nothing about overall fitness. Wow you can endure a mile and half run while dehydrated due to you wanting to gain a few points in the waist measurement (water weight can add two inches.. lol.) And at the same time doing 9 push-ups will give you 6 points (for females). Big accomplishment there. And sit-ups. I see that you still have a keg for a stomach, but you were able to touch your thighs with you elbows 50 times in a minute so good job. You got 78 point for overall score. Please come back again next year.

kk. Made it to the first 5 pages and have to respond. Navy stationed on our base had a big problem with fitness. They fixed it by implementing a 3 fail out rule. Basically fail 3 tests during your career and you have a free ticket out of the service with a bad conduct discharge. On case by case basis of course. Air Force has something similar on our base except that they don't wait for the next yearly examine to get here. We do a mock test every month or every other month (they don't announce it), if you fail and you will automatically get enrolled into the "fat boy program". There is a big motivation to stay PT standard fit if anything. You get 42 days (6 wks) to show improvement. If you fail to show any improvement, you are out. If you fail three, you are out no matter if you show improvement or not. (by the way the tests are done by PTLs and HAWC) My squadron and PTLs know the importance of fitness and will make sure their Airman are staying fit.

------------------
We only do two mandatory PT days a week and leave it to individual responsibility. We have to take up the responsibility to eat right, to make right choices in our daily health, and have free programs everywhere to help us when we need it. The Air Force don't monitor that stuff unless they have too (like failing a PT test) It should be an individual responsibility to stay "warrior fit" also. If they can't pass a simply PT test then they prove that they don't have enough discipline to be in the Air Force. Case by case. People who have injuries can get waivers and people have been sick too and that effect PT scores. Among other case by case issues. They have time to go before/during/after work to do PT. Not having time should not ever be used as an excuse. If they legitimately don't have time due to minimum manning issues, they their squadron failed them and should be hold accountable.

For people with a family. Do a cardio workout at home and get your family involved. It should be fun.

-----------------
The desert doesn't force people to lose the weight. Their job could be a cozy A/C job with no fitness needed, and no one will endanger an unit by putting tan overweight Ariman in a first responder/security job outside the wire. So losing weight by caring 40-75 pounds around is out of the question That is stupid to assume that people will lose weight if they get sent to the desert. They only people I have seen lose weight while I was over there was people who spend the effort to go the gym and worked their butts off.

[Capt Alfredo]

[I]

kk. Made it to the first 5 pages and have to respond. Navy stationed on our base had a big problem with fitness. They fixed it by implementing a 3 fail out rule. Basically fail 3 tests during your career and you have a free ticket out of the service with a bad conduct discharge. On case by case basis of course. Air Force has something similar on our base except that they don't wait for the next yearly examine to get here. We do a mock test every month or every other month (they don't announce it), if you fail and you will automatically get enrolled into the "fat boy program". There is a big motivation to stay PT standard fit if anything. You get 42 days (6 wks) to show improvement. If you fail to show any improvement, you are out. If you fail three, you are out no matter if you show improvement or not. (by the way the tests are done by PTLs and HAWC) My squadron and PTLs know the importance of fitness and will make sure their Airman are staying fit.



I think that's probably not true. If it's a mock test, you can't kick someone out of the AF for failing it. If it were a real test, then you probably could. Your commander could refer someone to healthy living and all that for failing a mock test I would bet, but you can't punish someone for it. The test would have to be an official one.

[Smeghead]

I think that's probably not true. If it's a mock test, you can't kick someone out of the AF for failing it. If it were a real test, then you probably could. Your commander could refer someone to healthy living and all that for failing a mock test I would bet, but you can't punish someone for it. The test would have to be an official one.

Per the AFI commanders can place anyone on the Fitness Improvement Program, regardless of official PT score.

8.2.7.2. Commanders may require individuals who do not present a professional military appearance
(regardless of overall fitness composite score) to enter the FIP (SFIP for Reserves) and/or
otherwise schedule individuals for fitness education and intervention.

As for kicking out, I'm sure there's ways to do it administratavely it at the squadron level for repeatedly failing to meet Air Force standards.

[Capt Alfredo]

Per the AFI commanders can place anyone on the Fitness Improvement Program, regardless of official PT score.

8.2.7.2. Commanders may require individuals who do not present a professional military appearance
(regardless of overall fitness composite score) to enter the FIP (SFIP for Reserves) and/or
otherwise schedule individuals for fitness education and intervention.

As for kicking out, I'm sure there's ways to do it administratavely it at the squadron level for repeatedly failing to meet Air Force standards.

That's exactly what I said, other than your speculation about administrative discharge. FIP is not punishment.

[sigecaps]

On the spot PT tests are bullshit. They should give you at least a week that a PT test is coming up. The day after I do legs, I can't brisk walk 1.5 miles, let alone run it.

[Combat correspondent]

Per the AFI commanders can place anyone on the Fitness Improvement Program, regardless of official PT score.

8.2.7.2. Commanders may require individuals who do not present a professional military appearance
(regardless of overall fitness composite score) to enter the FIP (SFIP for Reserves) and/or
otherwise schedule individuals for fitness education and intervention.

As for kicking out, I'm sure there's ways to do it administratavely it at the squadron level for repeatedly failing to meet Air Force standards.

I REALLY can't wait until the day the Air Force, in all their wisdom, changes this to read "Supervisors," not "Commanders." That will be the day we can start making positive changes. I mean, Commanders already have too much on their plate to watch each and every Airman. Isn't that our job?

[fufu]

Then, we could have certain individuals abusing that power......

[Combat correspondent]

Then, we could have certain individuals abusing that power......

I don't think our NCOs are any more apt to abuse power than a commander. In any regard, how exactly do you abuse that power? For instance, if you see a fat body and say "hey Airman step up on this scale" and the Airman is indeed overweight, no harm no foul. On the other hand, same scenario and the Airman is not overweight, again no harm no foul. We need much thicker skin.

Also, we need a new weight program commensurate with height - and forget this waist measurement.

Here is where people will say that muscular people weight more....if someone is muscular, your not throwing them on the scale to begin with - that's for the fat bodies.

Muscular people would get weighed at the HAWC and a BMI would ensue.

[BRUWIN]

Then, we could have certain individuals abusing that power......

Really? That's nothing a tape measure and scale couldn't reconcile.