No More Petty!!! Call for ENLISTED OFFICERS

[everett76]

I am very honored to have served my country for over eleven years. All that I have earned in life, I accredit to the Navy. I am very proud of our traditions and history. I have spent the last few years taking the message of opportunity and equality into the neighborhoods and schools. As a recruiter, I have received several scolding comments regarding my title as a "Petty" officer. These comments came from several high school students and of course from other branches in friendly competition. At first I just laughed it off, but eventually I began to give this title some serious thought. I guess this happened when my daughter asked me what the word "Petty" meant. "Unfortunately it means of small significance.", I responded. We are making many advances in our military and Navy. It is time to honor those who left their homes in search of a better education from the Navy. I have stood many watches and served my country on many foriegn shores. I have never considered my service or sacrifice as petty. It is time for senior leadership to respect those that enlist. I call for someone here, within this forum, to bring this issue to top leadership. Simply change the title for the enlisted management known as Petty Officers to Enlisted Officers... Enlisted Officer Third Class, Enlisted Officer Second Class, Enlisted Officer First Class, Chief Enlisted Officer (CEO), Senior Chief Enlisted Officer, Master Chief Enlisted Officer. The Navy is made up of hard-working commisioned and enlisted officers who use their education and training to better accomplish the mission. It is time to respect the enlisted. Stop DISCRIMINATING us as petty!!!

[CrustySMSgt]

Enlisted officer... that is funny :rolleyes:

You are already an noncommissioned officer, why not go with that?

Have fun selling that idea... why not just be proud of your heritage... if you can't embrace that, you're only "petty" in your mind



Petty Officer

The Petty Officer can trace his title back to the old French word petit meaning something small. Over the years the word also came to mean minor, secondary and subordinate. In medieval and later England just about every village had several "petite", "pety" or "petty" officials/officers who were subordinate to such major officials as the steward of sheriff. The petty officers were the assistants to the senior officials.

The senior officers of the early British warships, such as the Boatswain, Gunner and Carpenter, also had assistants or "mates." Since the early seamen knew petty officers in their home villages they used the term to describe the minor officials aboard their ships. A ship's Captain or Master chose his own Petty Officers who served at his pleasure. At the end of a voyage or whenever the ship's crew was paid off and released the Petty Officers lost their positions and titles. There were Petty Officers in the British navy in the Seventeenth Century and perhaps earlier but the rank did not become official until 1808.

Petty Officers were important members of our Navy right from its beginnings and were also appointed by their ship's Captain. They did not have uniforms or rank insignia, and they usually held their appointments only while serving on the ship whose Captain had selected them.

Petty Officers in our Navy got their first rank insignia in 1841 when they began wearing a sleeve device showing an eagle perched on an anchor. Some Petty Officers wore the device on their left arms while others wore it on their right. All wore the same device. Specialty or rating marks did not appear officially until 1866 but they seem to have been in use for several years previously. Regulations sometimes serve to give formal status to practices already well established.

In 1885 the Navy recognized it three classes of Petty Officers--first, second and third--and in the next year let them wear rank insignia of chevrons with the points down under a spread eagle and rating mark. The eagle faced left instead of right as it does today.

The present Petty Officer insignia came about in 1894 when the Navy established the Chief Petty Officer rank and gave him the three chevrons with arc and eagle. The first, second and third class Petty Officers also began wearing the insignia they do today.

[everett76]

I agree. There is a great history in the title. We are also fighting for a country with a history of overcoming adversity and discrimination. When so many sailors are divided over the meaning of THEIR title, it is time to take a closer look at that title. Even the use of non-commisioned officer refers to the fact that we are not them. I know that I am not a commisioned officer and that I make a considerable amount of money less. I will never forget the fact that I had to clean after and serve junior officers who had worked for the Navy for less time than I. This is another issue entirely. I am not a disgruntled sailor who hasn't advanced. I have earned advancement very quickly and am no where near slowing. Unfortunatley I was unable to attend a university before I made the decision to serve but have since earned three degrees. I have held several key positions above my paygrade and never questioned my authority without proper cause or solution. Petty is just my title, it is not me.

[CrustySMSgt]

I agree. There is a great history in the title. We are also fighting for a country with a history of overcoming adversity and discrimination. When so many sailors are divided over the meaning of THEIR title, it is time to take a closer look at that title. Even the use of non-commisioned officer refers to the fact that we are not them. I know that I am not a commisioned officer and that I make a considerable amount of money less. I will never forget the fact that I had to clean after and serve junior officers who had worked for the Navy for less time than I. This is another issue entirely. I am not a disgruntled sailor who hasn't advanced. I have earned advancement very quickly and am no where near slowing. Unfortunatley I was unable to attend a university before I made the decision to serve but have since earned three degrees. I have held several key positions above my paygrade and never questioned my authority without proper cause or solution. Petty is just my title, it is not me.

It is what it is my friend... apply for commisioning or find a way to get over the commision envy. I am proud to be an E and would never have it any other way.


oh no, not another similar topic in another thread. I was going to say NCO as well but Chief beat me lol. Hey, I was called a private for a long time and heard the jokes and lived the harrassment but it didnt last. Some ranks will never change.

It was tough... but in an attempt to be serious, I left out the "seamen" references altogether... lol

[Battleshort]

Enlisted officer... that is funny :rolleyes:

You are already an noncommissioned officer, why not go with that?

Have fun selling that idea... why not just be proud of your heritage... if you can't embrace that, you're only "petty" in your mind

Petty Officer

The Petty Officer can trace his title back to the old French word petit....

snip snip

The present Petty Officer insignia came about in 1894 when the Navy established the Chief Petty Officer rank and gave him the three chevrons with arc and eagle. The first, second and third class Petty Officers also began wearing the insignia they do today.

Thank you Chief.

It's embarassing to have a crusty old AF guy like you teaching Naval history to a squid.:( :tongue:

[Battleshort]

It was tough... but in an attempt to be serious, I left out the "seamen" references altogether... lol

LOL!

If we were going to be really PC, we would have to call them "seapersons!

OH CRAP! Person? We can't have that either!:D

[PAMICH]

To Everett76, I do appreiciate the innovation and thought into your contention of title change. I do see the value of a name correction as I too have been labled by the definition of the word "petty" in the past. But that usually happened by non Navy people. As we Sailors know being advanced to Petty Officer in the Navy holds some weight and increased responsibility. We are held to a higher standard than those of non petty officers. In many realms (this will start an argument) a petty officer is held in a higher pecking order than of the same paygrade of other branches. Our leadership training goes much beyond what some commisioned officers receive at the lower echelons. It's actually mandatory for us Petty Officers to delve into management and leadership training. Where for Officers it may be part of their curriculum at graduate level. So be proud of your innovative idea and keep the tradition for now that Petty in the navy has a separate definition than "insignificant".

[Yggdrasil]

This is by far the most ridiculous suggestion I've ever seen. This reeks of an insecure person allowing what others think to dictate how they live their lives.

Title of "Petty Officer" isn't going anywhere. Not only is it tradition in the United States Navy, but this is tradition in ALL English-speaking navies.

[YomanDenver]

I'm a Petty Officer and don't mind the title. For some, they do fall short in their area of expertise and the title Petty is probably an overstatement on their productivity.

Maybe you should run for the Senate and introduce a bill that changes the Department of the Navy and changes Petty to Enlisted Officer. I would never want that title.

[MPLisa]

What a laughable load of scat!!!!!!

As Battle Short pointed out; the French term Petite indicates "small" or "junior". I am both a former Chief Petty Officer, and a former Naval Officer (I made it up to O3-E), and I never considered my enslisted ranks as "petty" in the insignificant sense of the word.

As for those of you that want to turn this into some sort of liberalfascist class warfare issue, forget it. We all knew what we were getting into when we signed the enlistment contract and swore an oathe. If you enlisted guys don't like it, do what I did, earn your degrees and apply for a commission. Still don't like it? Then get the heck out and join a labor union to be with the rest of the knuckle draggers who can't get ahead.

[MPLisa]

Everett76 - Let me give you some mentoring: It is a better investment for you to take the time to educate the high schoolers you say "scolded" you (???), as well as your other service peers, and your daughter, as to the history and traditions of the Navy and its enlisted ranks. Keep in mind that the average highschool kid is a relative moron when it comes to the real world, your other service peers have different traditions, and your daughter, well, she'll love you no matter what, but she should have a better understanding of the nomenclature of your career.

There are far far bigger issues in this world than to worry about how you are perceived because others have a poor grasp of vocabulary or tradition. Your ribbons ought to speak for your, you ought to wear your uniform with pride, your posture should be poster perfect, and your grooming standards should say to the world: "I am a United States Navy sailor, and I am proud."

[YomanDenver]

"I am a United States Navy sailor, and I am proud."

Hoorah! If you're embarassed that you're a Petty Officer, then refer to people by your rate (ie., I'm a Yeoman Second Class). If they don't understand what your rate is, explain it to them. I constantly have to elaborate about what a Yeoman is. In the end, we're all Sailors and we all should be proud of what we do.

When someone stops me and thanks me for my service, I don't correct them and say, "But I'm only a Petty Officer, I mean nothing." If you think like that, you really do mean nothing. This is our tradition, this is our heritage. Sure, there are things that are traditions in the Navy, some good, some bad, but overall being a Petty Officer should make your family proud.

[Yggdrasil]

For those who are taking flack from the other services, remember this: "sergeant" comes from the French word "serviens," which means "servant." The French word "serviens" comes from the Latin word "servus," meaning slave.

If you ask me, I think we got the better deal.

[forcedj]

Ya know what…
Usually Airmen (in the Navy) aren’t really “airmen;” Seabees aren’t really “bees;” and SEALs aren’t really seals. In fact…Navy sailors aren’t really “sailors” (anymore).

I wonder if a discussion like this came up among the junior flag officers when “Commodore” (Navy O-7) was changed to “Rear Admiral Lower Half”…as if the “Rear” part isn’t bad enough they have to put up with being “lower” and only “half.”

Dan

P.S. I think the uniform debacle should be straightened out before we tackle a renaming our rank structure.

[Battleshort]

What a laughable load of scat!!!!!!

As Battle Short pointed out; the French term Petite indicates "small" or "junior". I am both a former Chief Petty Officer, and a former Naval Officer (I made it up to O3-E), and I never considered my enslisted ranks as "petty" in the insignificant sense of the word.

As for those of you that want to turn this into some sort of liberalfascist class warfare issue, forget it. We all knew what we were getting into when we signed the enlistment contract and swore an oathe. If you enlisted guys don't like it, do what I did, earn your degrees and apply for a commission. Still don't like it? Then get the heck out and join a labor union to be with the rest of the knuckle draggers who can't get ahead.

Actually, MP, I was just quoteing Crusty.

BTW - Great post.

[USN - Retired]

The phrase "petty officer" is very archaic. "Enlisted officer" does sound better than "petty officer" or "non-commissioned officer".

[USN - Retired]

Everett76 - Let me give you some mentoring: It is a better investment for you to take the time to educate the high schoolers you say "scolded" you (???), as well as your other service peers, and your daughter, as to the history and traditions of the Navy and its enlisted ranks. ."

If we are so concerned about preserving our traditional words and phrases in the Navy, then we should still be referring to female Sailors as WAVES.

For those of you who do not know the meaning of "WAVES", you can find out what it means at this site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WAVES

[Yggdrasil]

You know what the saddest part of this whole discussion is? People are airing their shame of our Naval heritage in a place where members of other service can read it.

[forcedj]

(photo from the link USN_Retired posted)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f7/2WAVES%2C_1950.jpg


Yowza. Check out the hairdoo. I'll wager that shot wasn't taked during a GQ drill.

Dan

[CrustySMSgt]

For those who are taking flack from the other services, remember this: "sergeant" comes from the French word "serviens," which means "servant." The French word "serviens" comes from the Latin word "servus," meaning slave.

If you ask me, I think we got the better deal.

I assume you're referencing getting flack from elsewhere... because I haven't seen anyone in this post doing anything but supporting the position that he should be proud of his rank. (Sure, I did throw out a seaman crack... but of course it is all in good fun... I have nothing but respect!!)

[Yggdrasil]

I assume you're referencing getting flack from elsewhere... because I haven't seen anyone in this post doing anything but supporting the position that he should be proud of his rank. (Sure, I did throw out a seaman crack... but of course it is all in good fun... I have nothing but respect!!)

Oh no, I'm referring to the flack from the other services that the original poster claims to be receiving.

[CrustySMSgt]

Oh no, I'm referring to the flack from the other services that the original poster claims to be receiving.

copy, thanks for the clarification!

[MPLisa]

I suppose now we'll see some J.O. come on this BB and try to convince us that "Lieutenant Junior-Grade" should be called "Senior Junior Lieutenant", or "Ensign-Commander", or "Lieutenant Senior-Grade".

[YomanDenver]

I suppose now we'll see some J.O. come on this BB and try to convince us that "Lieutenant Junior-Grade" should be called "Senior Junior Lieutenant", or "Ensign-Commander", or "Lieutenant Senior-Grade".

And you know, that's the sad thing. America has become so "delicate." You can't say anything for fear that you might offend just one person.

[forcedj]

I suppose now we'll see some J.O. come on this BB and try to convince us that "Lieutenant Junior-Grade" should be called "Senior Junior Lieutenant", or "Ensign-Commander", or "Lieutenant Senior-Grade".

Again I referecne "REAR ADMIRAL LOWER HALF."

Dan

[PAMICH]

When someone said Comodore, I knew what they meant. Now I always need to stop and think How many stars is that again? I believe a comodore just wanted to be called admiral (with a whole lot of prefixes and suffixes). I guess they get better parking at the NEX with Admiral on their car.

For the LTjg and ENS prefixes, I think they do refer to themselves as such already.

[PAMICH]

Here is an old Navy Sailor term that is used today " ENLISTED WARRIOR ".

[SeaChicken]

I'm a JO and I don't know why we even need LTJG as a rank. You almost can't not get promoted to it, it happens so fast that ENS is a blur and all you really do is give someone a reason to pin something new on their collar. Every other Officer paygrade is at least a 4-year wait for your next promotion, why do we have to promote ENSs so fast?

Other than to keep a CAPT/Col. from being an O5 can anyone else come up with a reason?

[OldRetireSWO]

As for high school students grasping the meaning of the word "Petty", I find that questionable. Most of today's high school students don't have the vocabulary skills to equate your title with your perception that Petty Officer means insignificant or worthless. There must be some other reason they are laughing at you or belittling you. Here in the Midwest our students certainly don't laugh at Recruiters or belittle their achievements. Are you wearing your new black and tan working uniform in school? That would garner some laughter.

[CrustySMSgt]

I think we scared the guy off... lol

That or his officers have been really dirty and he hasn't gotten a break from cleaning up. :rolleyes:

[HM8404/8452]

If you knew what the term petty officer means then you wouldnt say that...

[MPLisa]

I sent an email to SECDEF this morning proposing the following new rank:
1. Corporal Captain (Immediately preceding the "Sergeant Major" rank.

[CrustySMSgt]

I sent an email to SECDEF this morning proposing the following new rank:
1. Corporal Captain (Immediately preceding the "Sergeant Major" rank.

ROFLMAO... very nice

I got a great tour of the George Washington today... DAMN that is one bad-ass war machine!! And I saw more PETTY OFFICERS than I could count doing amazing things... ain't nothing petty about that!!

[Battleshort]

ROFLMAO... very nice

I got a great tour of the George Washington today... DAMN that is one bad-ass war machine!! And I saw more PETTY OFFICERS than I could count doing amazing things... ain't nothing petty about that!!

It is amazing to see her pier-side. You should see her during full flight ops.:D

[CrustySMSgt]

It is amazing to see her pier-side. You should see her during full flight ops.:D

I bet... they are in MX phase, so it is crawling with JNs & contractors... Got a couple contacts now; will set up another tour when they load up the aircraft.

[YomanDenver]

It is amazing to see her pier-side. You should see her during full flight ops.:D

Nothing better than watching flight ops at night. :D CrustySMSgt, I envy you. I could really use some Georgia Coffee right now. :cool:

[forcedj]

1. Corporal Captain ....



Isn’t that the “rank” that Hawkeye gave to Radar O’Reilly in an episode of M*A*S*H when they took him into the Officers Club at some other base? Hawkeye pinned a set of his captain bars onto one of Radar's collars...while the Corporal insignia was still on the other collar. The other officers in the club were curious and questioned what was going on. Hawkeye told them it was an experimental rank…Corporal Captain…and they were there conducting a survey on behalf of the Army.

Dan

[tmurphy]

I think you have lost your mind, it is nice being called a Petty Officer because you know it is NAVY. Serving with the Army and Air force here is really wierd. The Army here calls everyone from E5-E7 sergeant.

[Yggdrasil]

I think you have lost your mind, it is nice being called a Petty Officer because you know it is NAVY. Serving with the Army and Air force here is really wierd. The Army here calls everyone from E5-E7 sergeant.

And E8, if it's a Master Sergeant and not a First Sergeant. Same thing in the Air Force. From what I've seen, the Marine Corps is the only service where one is always addressed by full rank - but that's because Staff NCO (which corresponds to our CPOs) begins at E6 in the Marine Corps.

[forcedj]

The Army here calls everyone from E5-E7 sergeant.


I'm not in favor of the Enlisted Officer title, but I just want to point out that we call everyone from E4 to E9 Petty Officer. In fact an Army person at a joint command once said to me "The Navy has more petty officers than the Army has sergeants."

Dan

[MBIVEY007]

Then get the heck out and join a labor union to be with the rest of the knuckle draggers who can't get ahead.

I resent your generalizeing members of labor unions as being "knuckle draggers who can't get ahead." So I will generalize you by saying that you're a stuck up snob of an officer. How do you like that cup of tea? If not for hard working men and women who happen to belong to labor unions the U.S. would be even further in to economic troubles. What you and many others fail to see and understand is that without the blue collar worker in American business it would mean the loss of many jobs, which would raise unemployment and drasticly decreaseing the amount of sales that any company or business has. Less sales in any company means less profit, less proft means that the execs either don't get their big bonuses or the company fails. Then the execs tend to be pretty greedy and they've got their millions by the time the company fails so they can just say oh well and go home to their millions. I have some serious moral issues with many white collar workers, politicians, and military officers that generalize laborers.
Now I don't support 100% of union objectives and I'm neither democrat nor republican, but a moderate. I can usually see issues from mulitple angles and why different groups seeing things the way they do. Labor unions were created to protect the rights of workers. For that I support them. For some, union work was what they were born and breed to do; it's in their blood, and they couldn't be happier. Laborers do just that: labor. Who's gonna do that labor if not for them, the laborers? How would a Navy ship run without any enlisted crew, just a bunch of O's? THAT would be interesting to see. Just that same, the civilan world can not survive without laborers. So why would you suggest that they are knuckle draggers who can't get ahead?

[smarg]

It is what it is my friend... apply for commisioning or find a way to get over the commision envy. I am proud to be an E and would never have it any other way.


BUSTED!! You won't say this over in the AF threads to the goofs who want Warrant bars or want to fly as enlisteds. Silly guy. :D

[smarg]

I resent your generalizeing members of labor unions as being "knuckle draggers who can't get ahead." So I will generalize you by saying that you're a stuck up snob of an officer.

Put a lid on that officer hate-orade, my son. :D

[tmurphy]

I'm not in favor of the Enlisted Officer title, but I just want to point out that we call everyone from E4 to E9 Petty Officer. In fact an Army person at a joint command once said to me "The Navy has more petty officers than the Army has sergeants."

Dan

Enlisted Officer just doesn't sound right. Petty Officer and Non Commissioned Officer fits the bill just right. Why fix what isn't broken?

[CrustySMSgt]

BUSTED!! You won't say this over in the AF threads to the goofs who want Warrant bars or want to fly as enlisteds. Silly guy. :D

lol... I don't even waste my time reading those retarded threads...

[smarg]

lol... I don't even waste my time reading those retarded threads...

I have to admit, though, it is quite fun taunting the morons. :tongue:

[MPLisa]

MBIvey - my beef is not with laborers. I am the grandson of an Italian immigrant - so laboring is in my heritage (and yes, I was an officer, but was also enlisted). My beef is with the corrupt labor unions that serve no purpose other than to make life miserable for businesses and employers (i run a business with both union and non-union workers). Unions are an anachronism, and mostly corrupt (read the news articles about the SEIU vs. UHS).

Unions are a transparent joke that force themselves on many people who would otherwise not join a union. Thanks ot Komrad Barry Hussein, we'll have a lot more unions involved in destroying American manufacturing.

[LandLocked]

I am very honored to have served my country for over eleven years. All that I have earned in life, I accredit to the Navy. I am very proud of our traditions and history. I have spent the last few years taking the message of opportunity and equality into the neighborhoods and schools. As a recruiter, I have received several scolding comments regarding my title as a "Petty" officer. These comments came from several high school students and of course from other branches in friendly competition. At first I just laughed it off, but eventually I began to give this title some serious thought. I guess this happened when my daughter asked me what the word "Petty" meant. "Unfortunately it means of small significance.", I responded. We are making many advances in our military and Navy. It is time to honor those who left their homes in search of a better education from the Navy. I have stood many watches and served my country on many foriegn shores. I have never considered my service or sacrifice as petty. It is time for senior leadership to respect those that enlist. I call for someone here, within this forum, to bring this issue to top leadership. Simply change the title for the enlisted management known as Petty Officers to Enlisted Officers... Enlisted Officer Third Class, Enlisted Officer Second Class, Enlisted Officer First Class, Chief Enlisted Officer (CEO), Senior Chief Enlisted Officer, Master Chief Enlisted Officer. The Navy is made up of hard-working commisioned and enlisted officers who use their education and training to better accomplish the mission. It is time to respect the enlisted. Stop DISCRIMINATING us as petty!!!

You might want to read a little history of where the term "Petty Officer" came from and what it really means. (I won't bore you with reposting what you can readily find on your own) I know it was a HUGE deal for me when I made Petty Officer Third Class and the excitement of moving up the ranks has never dulled. If you think being a Petty Officer means that you are inferior or less of a Sailor, then you really missed out during bottcamp where we instill a sense of pride in our newest Sailors and for them, making Petty Officer is a goal and something that is looked up as a good thing. You seem to have some issues with your title...well, Shipmate, it is just that....a title. Let your actions speak for you and not worry so much about what your title is. I know many a PO3 who was sought out by Officers because of their expertise. Apparently, you are the one with the issue.

[Doc Wilson]

Leave it the way it is.

[PAMICH]

How often do we use the term "Petty Officer". I took a quik unofficial poll. The terms AE3, BM2, SK1 etc.., Chief, senior, master, chief's mess, 1st class association, E-6 and below, 3rd Class, 2ns Class, have been uttered 10 fold over the term Petty Officer this last month. Actually I used the term Petty Officers in an instruction forum more than anything.

[jeffersj]

For what it is worth.

I invite/direct the attention of everyone to OPNAVINST 1710.7A (Social Usage and Protocol), Annex E. That covers models of address.

In the section for Navy and Coast Guard personnel, the saluation for personnel in paygrades E-4 through E-6 is simply "Petty Officer". By inference, I would take it that addressing someone by rate/rating would be incorrect. Yes, I have heard the forms of address used by Pamich many times - that does not necessarily make them correct.

[ElectricElvis]

I can understand how persons (oops, make that "peoples", wouldn't want to offend anybody) could get offended by a term that they do not understand. Perhaps those peoples who do not understand our culture should endeavor not to let themselves be offended by their own ignorance.

I also do not take offense at the term "Shipmate". To me, a shipmate is someone who looks out for you, because they know you'll look out for them in return, no questions asked. On one occasion, I helped a shipmate who could not dress herself or eat in the galley because of a severe back injury. The loyalty that runs between sailors who watch out for each other instills a sense of pride in the term, not derision, and improves unit cohesion and esprit de corps.

I am a Petty Officer. My brother is a Petty Officer. My husband, my father and his two brothers, and both of my grandfathers were Petty Officers. It is a title I wear with pride. I am a Shipmate to those who won't turn and screw me over for my efforts. I mentor anyone who needs it. I am a United States Sailor, and I am proud of my rich familial and Naval heritage.

The only thing I am unhappy about is the manner in which we promote people in the Navy. When seapeoples are selected for advancement and frocked, it is often as much as seven months until they are paid for their new rank. They perform the duties, take on extra responsibility, and strengthen their leadership, and are still paid at the same rate they were before. I have as yet to be able to amply justify this. It doesn't make any kind of sense that I can think of, and I'm a master at bovine-excrementing my way into a plausible excuse.

[DoABarrelRoll]

The only thing I am unhappy about is the manner in which we promote people in the Navy. When seapeoples are selected for advancement and frocked, it is often as much as seven months until they are paid for their new rank. They perform the duties, take on extra responsibility, and strengthen their leadership, and are still paid at the same rate they were before. I have as yet to be able to amply justify this. It doesn't make any kind of sense that I can think of, and I'm a master at bovine-excrementing my way into a plausible excuse.

The Navy is run like a shitty office. The CoC is attempting getting the most out of their money, and those vengeful bastards can pull the recommendation for your promotion up to the point of you being paid.

[snydersweb]

I spent 9 years in the navy as an enlisted service memeber. I atained the rate of MM1. I never saw anything petty in petty officer. I think it is more sumantics than how we were veiwed. Too many traditions in the navy are being lost and we need to hold on to them as long as we can. I really appriciate all you current service members are doing for preserving our pressious way of life. Check out my new novel about the war on terror. Although it is fiction you will see a lot of things related to us navy folk.
The GH-4 Effect by Scott Snyder. Barnes and Noble, Amazon. Its a great read. You'll love it.
Again thanks for your service.

[ET1(SS) Keith]

tradition, schmadition. i said it before, and i'll say it again. we should just take everything that's considered a "tradition" and send it up the chain so they can completely retool it. i'm not going to jump into this argument. i'm just looking at the last couple of posts. technically, chiefs are still petty officers. hence the name "chief petty officer". now i know i'm gonna get crap for this, but i do agree that none of us are a "lower or insignificant" anything. and for those of you who take pride in that, kudos to you. i personally prefer to address people either by their last name, or their rate. this is one of those traditions that i really wonder how so many people got brainwashed into believing is a good thing. it's like handing someone a plate of poop, them eating the poop, and them actually enjoying the poop. pretty soon they're passing plates of poop to all their friends, and they're all enjoying it, until someone comes along and says "why the f--- are you all eating shit?!" to which everyone responds, f--- you, we like the poop!

[Yggdrasil]

The fact that people think that this joke of a topic is so important to everyone that it has turned into a six-page discussion so far is what's shocking to me.

[MineSweepBosn]

I am very honored to have served my country for over eleven years. All that I have earned in life, I accredit to the Navy. I am very proud of our traditions and history. I have spent the last few years taking the message of opportunity and equality into the neighborhoods and schools. As a recruiter, I have received several scolding comments regarding my title as a "Petty" officer. These comments came from several high school students and of course from other branches in friendly competition. At first I just laughed it off, but eventually I began to give this title some serious thought. I guess this happened when my daughter asked me what the word "Petty" meant. "Unfortunately it means of small significance.", I responded. We are making many advances in our military and Navy. It is time to honor those who left their homes in search of a better education from the Navy. I have stood many watches and served my country on many foriegn shores. I have never considered my service or sacrifice as petty. It is time for senior leadership to respect those that enlist. I call for someone here, within this forum, to bring this issue to top leadership. Simply change the title for the enlisted management known as Petty Officers to Enlisted Officers... Enlisted Officer Third Class, Enlisted Officer Second Class, Enlisted Officer First Class, Chief Enlisted Officer (CEO), Senior Chief Enlisted Officer, Master Chief Enlisted Officer. The Navy is made up of hard-working commisioned and enlisted officers who use their education and training to better accomplish the mission. It is time to respect the enlisted. Stop DISCRIMINATING us as petty!!!

Another good example of just one of the short falls affecting our sailors today. There seems to be an epidemic of individuals reading regulations, standards, procedures etc. and taking what they want from it that suits their purpose or outlook and disregarding the rest. The definition of "PETTY" that you gave was one of the several that are listed in any dictionary:
1 : having secondary rank or importance : minor, subordinate
2 : having little or no importance or significance
3 : marked by or reflective of narrow interests and sympathies : small-minded
Yes we are minor or subordinate, if you feel that the term Petty Officer is offensive then that is your issue to deal with personally. The term describes your rank, and position in a structured military organization in relation to people senior to you, not you as a person or as a sailor.

[Yggdrasil]

Yes we are minor or subordinate, if you feel that the term Petty Officer is offensive then that is your issue to deal with personally. The term describes your rank, and position in a structured military organization in relation to people senior to you, not you as a person or as a sailor.

I've explained this before, but it fell on deaf ears: "sergeant" comes from the French word "serviens," which means "servant." The French word "serviens" comes from the Latin word "servus," meaning slave.

What does this mean? The equivalent enlisted ranks in ALL services, if you want to put it that way, put the enlisted "in their place." If someone doesn't like it, they need to get commissioned.

[MineSweepBosn]

I agree with you 100% on this topic.

[euzkadiCA]

I've explained this before, but it fell on deaf ears: "sergeant" comes from the French word "serviens," which means "servant." The French word "serviens" comes from the Latin word "servus," meaning slave.

What does this mean? The equivalent enlisted ranks in ALL services, if you want to put it that way, put the enlisted "in their place." If someone doesn't like it, they need to get commissioned.

Or just get rid of the Officer and Enlisted ranks structure....its doable. Have a single rank structure going from 1- 20 or whatever and each one a specific paygrade, any similarities in rank could be simply adressed by time in service. The Swedes had a submarine that was in San Diego and they all have to start off at the bottom and work their way up to command. Reasons it wouldn't work anybody? Real reasons not simply because "you cant" and tradition.

[CUSEFAN21]

This to me has no bearing i was honored to be called a Petty OIfficer, would have loved to have been called a Chief but never got the chance thanks to the military politico but thats ok i survived did my 20 and moved on. But the problem to me isn;t the name it's the way we blue shirts were treated by the khaki echelon in which many also were in our shoes at one time and forgot where they came from and how they go to where they were at the expense of us.

[alienware]

I agree, it;s time to change., Petty is discriminating now. Out of all the branches of service, we're the one who get jokes dished at the most. You can say oh you got to have tough skin or whatever, but it's time to change. In the fleet we never called our Chiefs, Senior Chiefs, Master Chiefs, as Chief Petty Officer Joe, Senior Chief Petty Officer Doe, or Master Chief Petty Officer I'll Kick your ass, by that. We dropped that Petty Officer surname, and call them Chief, Senior, or Master Chief simply by that. Even the Admiral will just call them Chief or Senior or Master Chief. It's time we drop that Petite or small, junior crap. I have my pride in my branch of service and there will be change in the forseable future. Just because you guys we're called that doesn't mean we have to. Times change ushering in a new generation who get taught the old ways, by the old dogs but also infuse in the new way. Adapt and overcome that's the Navy way. You guys holding on to this insignificant tradition, are the very ones blocking progress for the future to mold, the Sailor of the future. You're guys time is almost or already over, let the younger generation lead the way to the new path carrying time honored traditions and parting ways with unecessary and restricted traditions such as the title of petty officer. Change is now.

[Yggdrasil]

I agree, it;s time to change., Petty is discriminating now. Out of all the branches of service, we're the one who get jokes dished at the most. You can say oh you got to have tough skin or whatever, but it's time to change. In the fleet we never called our Chiefs, Senior Chiefs, Master Chiefs, as Chief Petty Officer Joe, Senior Chief Petty Officer Doe, or Master Chief Petty Officer I'll Kick your ass, by that. We dropped that Petty Officer surname, and call them Chief, Senior, or Master Chief simply by that. Even the Admiral will just call them Chief or Senior or Master Chief. It's time we drop that Petite or small, junior crap. I have my pride in my branch of service and there will be change in the forseable future. Just because you guys we're called that doesn't mean we have to. Times change ushering in a new generation who get taught the old ways, by the old dogs but also infuse in the new way. Adapt and overcome that's the Navy way. You guys holding on to this insignificant tradition, are the very ones blocking progress for the future to mold, the Sailor of the future. You're guys time is almost or already over, let the younger generation lead the way to the new path carrying time honored traditions and parting ways with unecessary and restricted traditions such as the title of petty officer. Change is now.

So what do you want to be? A Sergeant? (i.e., "servant," "slave"?)

[Silver Fox]

It's common in many branches of the military across the globe.

You could interpret "Non Commissioned Officer", "Petty Officer", "Lieutenant Junior Grade", "Sub Lieutenant", "Under Officer", "Private/Airman Basic", "Lieutenant Colonel", "Lieutenant Commander", "Sub Field Marshall" etc. all in an negative way if you wanted to, but it's not meant that way at all. Whereas to some apparently those words invoke thoughts of humiliation and degradation, I hear the word "NonCom" and instantly think of the most respected, feared and intimidating men in the military. A general will make you snap to attention, sure, you'll be a little nervous.... but nothing beats an enlisted drill instructor getting in your face the first time. You'll never get that from an officer.

[ElectricElvis]

I think the first one that should be changed is "Rear Admiral, Lower Half". There are four grades of admiral in the Navy, and I always thought that one was hilarious. I always thought all admirals were "rears", but to be redundant and specify "lower half" (aka, ass?)??? Seriously, I want to know who came up with that.

I don't mind being a petty officer; it beats being a Butt Admiral, Waist Down!

[Yggdrasil]

I think the first one that should be changed is "Rear Admiral, Lower Half". There are four grades of admiral in the Navy, and I always thought that one was hilarious. I always thought all admirals were "rears", but to be redundant and specify "lower half" (aka, ass?)??? Seriously, I want to know who came up with that.

I don't mind being a petty officer; it beats being a Butt Admiral, Waist Down!

At one time, a two-star admiral was Rear Admiral, and a one-star was a Commodore. I agree, they need to go back to that.

[jeffersj]

This to me has no bearing i was honored to be called a Petty OIfficer, would have loved to have been called a Chief but never got the chance thanks to the military politico but thats ok i survived did my 20 and moved on. But the problem to me isn;t the name it's the way we blue shirts were treated by the khaki echelon in which many also were in our shoes at one time and forgot where they came from and how they go to where they were at the expense of us.

You are correct, there are some of us that forgot where we came from, in spite of the warning we got during the transition to never forget that. But then, some of us make it a point not to forget and remember that we have an obligation to train the juniors to one day step into our shoes.

[Battleshort]

I think the first one that should be changed is "Rear Admiral, Lower Half". There are four grades of admiral in the Navy, and I always thought that one was hilarious. I always thought all admirals were "rears", but to be redundant and specify "lower half" (aka, ass?)??? Seriously, I want to know who came up with that.
I don't mind being a petty officer; it beats being a Butt Admiral, Waist Down!

Back in the day when ships were made of wood and the men were made of steel........:D

When ships sailed into battle, they were lead by the Admiral. Next in command was the Vice Admiral and bringing up the rear was......you guessed it.

Not such a bad spot though. It the winds changed and the line had to reverse, guess who lead the fight?

[navysailor2004]

And you know, that's the sad thing. America has become so "delicate." You can't say anything for fear that you might offend just one person.

This is what i think. if people want to be so sensitive, they dont need to be in the military at all. All i see now is people trying to push the limit and change things to the way that they want it. if you dont like how the military is, suck it up, do your time, and get out. I am proud to be a Petty Officer in the united states navy. if you dont like the way it sounds, or how hard yuor job is, fail the test and dont advance and stay E3 or below, and get out when your time is up dont complain to everyone about how you want it to change.

[DoABarrelRoll]

This is what i think. if people want to be so sensitive, they dont need to be in the military at all. All i see now is people trying to push the limit and change things to the way that they want it. if you dont like how the military is, suck it up, do your time, and get out. I am proud to be a Petty Officer in the united states navy. if you dont like the way it sounds, or how hard yuor job is, fail the test and dont advance and stay E3 or below, and get out when your time is up dont complain to everyone about how you want it to change.

What the hell is the point of staying in if not to change things for the better?

[navysailor2004]

What the hell is the point of staying in if not to change things for the better?

better yet, whats the point of staying in if all you're going to do is complain about everything?

[ET1(SS) Keith]

better yet, whats the point of staying in if all you're going to do is complain about everything?

A bitching sailor is a happy sailor.

[navysailor2004]

A bitching sailor is a happy sailor.

i couldn't agree more. there is always room for improvement.

[kobrien22]

such a petty idea.

[Shep]

Can this thread please be erased? It seems to rear its ugly head every other week when somebody finds it again.

[Pollywog]

I kind of like the term Petty Officer. Lots of tradition behind that. I never considered myself petty.

Former PO2(AW), USN