The great khaki divide ARTICLE

[tmurphy]

What is all the fuss with the E7 and above community getting bent out of shape about our new Khaki working uniform? It is the person in the uniform who is a good enough leader to achieve that rank not the uniform color they are wearing that makes them a good leader. The Army, Air force and Marines don't have any problems identifying who is what rank. Don't we all put our pants on the same way in the morning? It’s one leg right after the other and then you button/zip up and close your belt. Does it really make a difference that we wear the same colored shirt?

[Yggdrasil]

Damn, are you SURE you want to have this discussion?

[tmurphy]

Let me try and guess; I am throwing myself under the bus right? Just because I am not a CPO or above doesn't mean I can't relate to this topic. It is a shirt color, and yes it has been a Navy tradition but think about it. The other branches here in Iraq don't have any problem with knowing who is in charge, we all have rank on our collars. Actually we (NAVY) are doing just fine here even though we all wear the Desert Combat Uniform. There are no Khaki uniforms and I think the E7 and above here get the same respect unless it is from Army personnel. That is a whole new topic.

[RMCS(SS) FLEWWELLIN/RET]

the rating badge problem is very easy to correct..just put it on the left sleeve in black like the old summer whites had..may be overkill with the collar devices but will still allow enlisted members to show pride in their respective ratings..as far as E-1 to E-6 wearing a khaki shirt..so what..CPO's have and wear their anchors so what is the prob..lastly it is not the uniform that makes the man but the man that becomes the CHIEF..never forget where you came from..you weren't born in khaki's folks..

R/RMCS(SS) Flew

[Yggdrasil]

I've only had one problem with separate uniforms - which the MCPON West's Continuation Board is going to solve.

The problem is that I believe that the Navy places too much significance on making Chief - I mean, it's significant, yes, but the other service gradually place more significance successively at E7, E8, and E9 - which we don't see in the Navy.

That said, you get too many people who make Chief, and they don't care about making Senior Chief - because they got what they wanted, they got their khakis, etc - there's no further ambition (i.e., they stop making contributions to the team/mission after personal goals have been met).

I think that the khaki shirt might actually help slow the roll of those who only want to make Chief just for the uniform.

[PAMICH]

[QUOTE=Yggdrasil;186283]
there's no further ambition (i.e., they stop making contributions to the team/mission after personal goals have been met).=QUOTE]

Now I know you only wrote that to stir the pot..........And it's working cause I'm steaming under the collar. To be selected is a great honor. The paygrade really means little at this point in the Navy versus Rank. I personally want to show you the contributions we stop making and how much of the mission we stop completing, and how much more our ambition has gone by the wayside but there has been way too many attacks against each other on this BB. Besides it's cheap beer night at the club and I don't feel up to arguing.

[Yggdrasil]

[QUOTE=Yggdrasil;186283]
there's no further ambition (i.e., they stop making contributions to the team/mission after personal goals have been met).=QUOTE]

Now I know you only wrote that to stir the pot..........And it's working cause I'm steaming under the collar. To be selected is a great honor. The paygrade really means little at this point in the Navy versus Rank. I personally want to show you the contributions we stop making and how much of the mission we stop completing, and how much more our ambition has gone by the wayside but there has been way too many attacks against each other on this BB. Besides it's cheap beer night at the club and I don't feel up to arguing.

I apologize if I was misunderstood here - I wasn't trying to make a generalization, or even imply that "most" do this... I'm just saying that there are those who slip through the cracks, and you end up getting a few of those types. Hell, even when I was a PO2 before they implemented the 14 year HYT, I was critical of those PO2's who sat around and got comfortable because they reached the paygrade at which they can retire and collect that check, and had no ambition to make PO1.

I believe MCPON West said something to the effect of, "If ever you have reached the point in your career when you begin to feel comfortable, it's time to go" - and this was in reference to the continuation board. I'm seeing what MCPON West is seeing.

Although I do think that the Big Navy might be able to help by placing more significance on the Senior Chief rate - at least as much or more than what the other services place on their First Sergeants. Maybe that might remedy some of the issues.

[tmurphy]

the rating badge problem is very easy to correct..just put it on the left sleeve in black like the old summer whites had..may be overkill with the collar devices but will still allow enlisted members to show pride in their respective ratings..as far as E-1 to E-6 wearing a khaki shirt..so what..CPO's have and wear their anchors so what is the prob..lastly it is not the uniform that makes the man but the man that becomes the CHIEF..never forget where you came from..you weren't born in khaki's folks..

R/RMCS(SS) Flew

Ya but then you have to pay to have someone sew it on and how are you going to do it when you're at sea? Most Sailors don't want to sew it on themselves because it looks unprofessional. Instead of putting it on the sleeve, they should allow us to wear those pin on rating badges you already see at the Navy Exchange. On the left collar you would wear your rating badge and on the right your rank.

[jeffersj]

First, a lot of the comments I've heard regarding the khaki shirt with the NSU remind me of the comments I heard with regard to the fact that as a PO3 I was wearing the same SDB uniform as the Chief and Officers 30 years ago. I suspect the biggest issue then was I was wearing "The Hat" as a junior enlisted.

Personally, I prefer the grey blouse but it is what it is.

Rating badges? I agree with using collar insignia vice rating badges on the blouse as it benefits the Sailor by reducing the financial outlay when they are advanced either to the next superior or inferior rate.

Yes, Yggdrasil, there is some deadwood in the CPO mess - steps are being taken to deal with that. Me personally, when I made Chief I knew I was never going to be eligible for SCPO due to HYT issues. Some will stop and rest on their laurels. Some (like me) will go on and do the job anyway. Hell, I ended up with more responsibility in a non-pay status than I did in a pay billet before I retired.

[GUNMATE1]

I just have a couple of things to say and it does agree with some of the posts in here. At first my chief hated this uniform. Was staunchly against it. But when he had no choice he turned to me and said, " I am holding you responsible for making sure our people are wearing it correctly." I took that challenge and now 50% of my division are in the SU and wearing it correctly the others will be in soon. Regarding the Chief problem. Well here is the solution and i have always joked with my LCPO regarding this. I said think of it this way when i put on Chief i only have to buy pants and a cover. LOL. His response to that was thats fine during the Cheif transition i will wear a black top and khaki pants. I said no probelm. But Cheifs and officers don't have to worry about sewing anything on thier Khaki's, they get the same if not more clothing allowance. So why should enlisted have to sew thier stuff on. Tradition??? Maybe but then again we dont wear the Dixie cup in utilities, but we wore them with Dungarees. But lets get real for a minute. The Kahki uniform doesn't hold high traditions for me. I am more focused on the anchor's that i will proudly wear on my collar. That is tradition. The anchor has always been associated with the Chiefs. That is the tradition i will proudly display. My uniforms will look sharp if and when i put on Chief. The gripe i am seeing that is coming from the O's and some Chiefs is uncalled for. It doesnt send the right message to our junior personnel, if you tell them its crap that they are wearing that uniform. Uniform Matters said it perfectly. "Get over it the uniform is here to stay." Stop griping and get your people wearing it correctly. It's not the uniform that defines the person. Its you who defines the person. Hence why there are good chiefs and then just E-7's

[Yggdrasil]

It doesnt send the right message to our junior personnel, if you tell them its crap that they are wearing that uniform.

Good point - junior Sailors cannot expected to take pride in their uniforms if Chiefs and officers are telling them that the uniform is crap.

Though there is just one issue I have - not so much an issue, but something that's raising questions... I took a look at the new seabag requirements, and noticed that we're only supposed to have one set of SU's... in other words, that's all the new Sailors get in boot camp. I'm wondering if this means that shore billets that currently require summer whites/winter blues as uniform of the day, and don't rate special clothing allowance, will have to make the NWU's the uniform of the day...

[GUNMATE1]

Though there is just one issue I have - not so much an issue, but something that's raising questions... I took a look at the new seabag requirements, and noticed that we're only supposed to have one set of SU's... in other words, that's all the new Sailors get in boot camp. I'm wondering if this means that shore billets that currently require summer whites/winter blues as uniform of the day, and don't rate special clothing allowance, will have to make the NWU's the uniform of the day...[/QUOTE]

Personally i would think it would be great if the NWU was made the uniform of the day, at least at CONUS bases and commands. Then we could look like all the other branches. I quickly purchased 2 sets of SU's as soon as i could. the NAVADMIN 311/07 states
DURING THE NEXT TWO YEARS, NAVY WILL INTRODUCE AND MAKE AVAILABLE
FOR PURCHASE, COMPONENTS OF THE PHYSICAL TRAINING UNIFORM (PTU),
E1 - E6 SERVICE UNIFORM (SU) AND THE NAVY WORKING UNIFORM (NWU).
APPROXIMATELY 300 DOLLARS OF THE FY-08 CRA IS INTENDED TO PROVIDE
ADVANCE MONETARY COMPENSATION TO FACILITATE PURCHASING OF THE PTU SHIRT
AND SHORTS (TWO EACH), ONE HALF OF THE SU UNIFORM REQUIREMENT AND ONE
HALF OF THE NWU UNIFORM REQUIREMENT UPON AVAILABILITY. THE
FY-09 CRA WILL PROVIDE FOR FINAL PURCHASING OF THE SU AND NWU
REQUIREMENTS PRIOR TO THE END OF THE TWO YEAR DISTRIBUTION PERIOD.
FOLLOWING FY-09, THE CRA RATES WILL REFLECT REPLACEMENT COST OF ALL
UNIFORM COMPONENTS BASED ON THEIR RESPECTIVE WEAR-LIFE.

So the allowance or seabag should show 2 SU's at least that is what i get from the NAVADMIN. But i could be wrong. But i still think the NWU should be the uniform of the day CONUS.

[Yggdrasil]

So the allowance or seabag should show 2 SU's at least that is what i get from the NAVADMIN. But i could be wrong. But i still think the NWU should be the uniform of the day CONUS.

You're right - a new listing came out showing that it requires two sets. I imagine that the previous listing had only intended for Sailors to buy 1 set for the time being. Same deal for the NWU - the new listing now shows that we're required to have four sets (which I agree with - I can't imagine expecting Sailors to get by with only two sets).

If the new dress whites come out and I'm not a Chief by then, I hope that we'd only be required to have one set. We don't really wear dress whites enough to necessitate two sets.

[RMCS(SS) FLEWWELLIN/RET]

hay SK2 Murphy that is a great idea about wearing the collar device rating insignia..R/RMCS(SS)

[Yggdrasil]

hay SK2 Murphy that is a great idea about wearing the collar device rating insignia..R/RMCS(SS)

I doubt it will happen. Chiefs don't wear their rating on their collar, so why would they give it to E6 and below?

[HM8404/8452]

This is my opinion, i dont know if my shipmates agree but. It is a uniform, if i am told to wear it then I will wear it. Its my job to look as good as I can in any uniform. If the navy says wear whitey tidies to work with polished boots and I white teeshirt I will. But i bet I will look good in it. The color of the uniform or type means nothing. Also I dont think its the color of the uniform I respect from CPOs its the Anchor they wear.

[MexDoc]

This is my opinion, i dont know if my shipmates agree but. It is a uniform, if i am told to wear it then I will wear it. Its my job to look as good as I can in any uniform. If the navy says wear whitey tidies to work with polished boots and I white teeshirt I will. But i bet I will look good in it. The color of the uniform or type means nothing. Also I dont think its the color of the uniform I respect from CPOs its the Anchor they wear.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: I agree

[SeaChicken]

Shirts don't get passed to from one Chief to another, anchors do. My dad is a retired RMCS and he could trace his anchors back to WWII and he knows who has them now. Those little pieces of tin have been around for over 60 years and have been worn by 5 generations of CPOs. That's a pretty amazing testament to their community identity.

I can understanding taking pause at someone getting something (khaki shirt) right out of boot that you worked 10+ years to get, but to me it's all about the anchors and the hat. That part isn't changing.

[tmurphy]

hay SK2 Murphy that is a great idea about wearing the collar device rating insignia..R/RMCS(SS)
Thanks but it's nothing new; sailors in the RP and HM rating wear them with the Marines/Seabee's. It would be great because you could address the sailor by his/her rate instead of just saying "Petty Officer" which offends some shipmates.

[YomanDenver]

It would be great because you could address the sailor by his/her rate instead of just saying "Petty Officer" which offends some shipmates.

Especially this guy...http://www.militarytimes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1574197

[smarg]

What happened to my great post?? Damn! :D

[hcshawk]

I remember getting pinned with my ANCHORS during an official ceremony....

I put my khakis on at HOME before the ceremony; no crowds or fanfare.

A khaki shirt without devices has no rank.

The ANCHOR means Chief.

I think the black/tans look great.

[MBIVEY007]

If a chief or officer believes that his leadership abilities lie within his uniform and not himself, then he is not a true leader. In fact, if rank is too great a factor in determining who is the leader than there is a problem. I'm a reservist, but in my civilian job I lead others who, if it were a military environment would outrank me. These egotistical games need to stop so we can get real work done, get it done efficiently, the best way possible, with the highest quality, the first time.
So you're a chief or an officer and you say you've worked hard to earn that? Then I tell you to work HARDER to keep it and the respect that you want with it. As a 20 year old with no college degree who currently lies at the bottom of most official "food chains" I'll not hesitate to take charge, make decisions, and give orders when something needs to get done the right way. You don't like that or think it's an insubordinate attitute? Maybe, so do a better job yourself of leading and we wouldn't have to worry about it. I'll never challenge a good leader's authority.
I completely agree with those who say that the color of the uniform is not what makes a sailor into a CPO or an O, but what kind of a person and leader that sailor is.
Also, why should CPO's and O's take their dislike of the new uniform out on enlisted sailors? We didn't make the rules, talk to senior Navy leadership about that, like the ones that wear khaki with stars on their collars.

[tmurphy]

I doubt it will happen. Chiefs don't wear their rating on their collar, so why would they give it to E6 and below?

You answered your own question. Because they are CHIEFS, they wear alot of things E6 and below don't wear. Why should this be any different?

[smarg]

You answered your own question. Because they are CHIEFS, they wear alot of things E6 and below don't wear. Why should this be any different?

They are also ENLISTED, like their E6s and below. The didn't have to SELL OUT once they make E-7.

[Echo3]

just to put my two cents in, i haven't been in the navy long, maybe a little over a year. i can still say that the only good "sea" stories are from boot camp. haha.

but i do have a long history of military in my family. I tell you it took me a while to learn what uniforms meant what. and i'll tell you now it's still taking me a while to learn all about the navy and what i should and should NOT do. First of all, i wear my uniform with pride. Whether i WANT to be a first class or i AM a seaman or third class, it doesn't matter to me. I earned my rank, WHATEVER IT IS. And do i let my uniform tell me what i earned? absolutely not.

chiefs and officers, if you got your neck in a bind over some stupid uniform shirt color, go back to boot and learn what it means to be a real sailor, with all due respect. we never give up. we never fail. and if we do fail, IF WE DO FAIL, we stand back up and fight again. we are the United States Navy for crying out loud people, we're not the air force. we're not the marines. we're not the army. and we sure as heck aren't the coast guard. WE ARE THE NAVY. and i'm proud to say that i am in the world's greatest and most powerful navy and that i have the opportunity to contribute something to this country.

but let me tell you, the SECOND i start fussing over my rank, it's the SECOND i deserve to GIVE UP my rank and get the heck out of this great navy. when it comes down to it, who's gonna call the shots? who's gonna tighten that pipe and keep my ship from sinking? who's gonna cook my fellow sailors food to survive? who's going to make sure my sailors get the money they earned? who's going to make sure that my country is safe, and that my family won't have to worry about someone from another country bustin down my door?

i'll tell ya,

it's not a chief.
it's not a petty officer.
it's not a lieutenant.
it's not a seaman.
it's not a fireman.
it's not an admiral.

no.

it's a UNITED STATES SAILOR. THAT'S who.

So for all you officers and chiefs that think you're big shots, and think you're better than everyone else just because you've been in the navy longer, or have maybe had more of an opportunity to achieve more than us junior sailors, pull your head out of your butt and remember what it means to be a united states sailor.

When i wear this uniform, whether it has that crow on it or not, i wear it with pride. whether it has that anchor, or that butter bar, or the leaf, it doesn't matter to me. I WEAR IT WITH PRIDE because i know i am in this great navy and i have something to boast about, and i have a family and a country back home to protect.

like i said, if you're fussin over a uniform color, go back to boot camp and learn what it means to be a real united states sailor and get out of my navy.

i sure as heck don't have to be in the united states navy for 20 years to know what it means to be a sailor, i guess for some people, apparently it flies right over their heads.

"You're a sailor kid, pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and get back on those deck plates where you belong and support this country." go ahead and quote it, i know some of you need to.

No disrespect to anyone here, your rank and positions are all respected in my opinion, and i would follow you into this war zone any day because i KNOW you've earned it, so don't think i'm bashin you because of your rank, or that i'm really bashin anyone, i'm making a point that you chiefs and officers should be making instead of me making it. it's a sad day in navy history when a junior sailor has to tell a chief or officer what it really means to be in this navy.

i'm proud to be a sailor, how bout yourself?

[tmurphy]

it's not a chief.
it's not a petty officer.
it's not a lieutenant.
it's not a seaman.
it's not a fireman.
it's not an admiral.

no.

it's a UNITED STATES SAILOR. THAT'S who.


AMEN brother, I hear ya loud and clear!

[smarg]

it's a UNITED STATES SAILOR. THAT'S who.

Too bad Navy Chiefs don't believe that.

Don't worry, you'll sell out and become a bloated bully just like all the rest of 'em. They all do. :(

[PAMICH]

To Echo3,
HOOYAH !! US NAVY #1 IN THE WORLD HOOYAH!! US NAVY SAILOR. Keep that NAVY pride going and you'll go far in the Navy. It's refreshing to see young Sailors following our footsteps. Makes me feel more confident to turn over the keys to some one who is so passionate. Honor,courage and commitment all the way. One word of advice from this Chief, don't bash our fellow brothers in the armed services. They too are committed to serving our country with pride.

[jeffersj]

Too bad Navy Chiefs don't believe that.

Don't worry, you'll sell out and become a bloated bully just like all the rest of 'em. They all do. :(


Sorry, here's one that does.

Lot of officers a few years ago thought the same way when they had to recite the Sailor's Creed at school. They learned, especially when an Admiral that had a bit of a reputation had the word "Sailor" on his grave marker.

[smarg]

Sorry, here's one that does.

Lot of officers a few years ago thought the same way when they had to recite the Sailor's Creed at school. They learned, especially when an Admiral that had a bit of a reputation had the word "Sailor" on his grave marker.

Outstanding. Wish there were more like you.

[pbenav]

Left, Right, Left, Right. Putting on Khakies does not mean a damn thing if the person that puts it on does not rate it. Of all of the people that I saw that made chief, only one rated it. All of the others that made chief were all cheats, lazy, liars and non-hacks that could not handle being place on the radio watchbil, which was normally port and starboard, eight hours on and eight hours off forever. So the only thing that the division officer could do was place these nonhacks on dayworking status. This nonhacks while on dayworking would then have the time to attend the floating college and have enought time leftover to go out and get his surface warfare pin all at the expense of the hackers who busted thier donkey's by doing what was required of them. Later after being out of the radio watchbill you would see these dayworking nonhacks get promoted to Chiefs, get endorsed for LDO and yet they want everyone to believe that they earned thier khakis. Bovine Sewage. Respectfully, USN SPECOMM 1972-1993

[smarg]

Left, Right, Left, Right. Putting on Khakies does not mean a damn thing if the person that puts it on does not rate it. Of all of the people that I saw that made chief, only one rated it. All of the others that made chief were all cheats, lazy, liars and non-hacks that could not handle being place on the radio watchbil, which was normally port and starboard, eight hours on and eight hours off forever. So the only thing that the division officer could do was place these nonhacks on dayworking status. This nonhacks while on dayworking would then have the time to attend the floating college and have enought time leftover to go out and get his surface warfare pin all at the expense of the hackers who busted thier donkey's by doing what was required of them. Later after being out of the radio watchbill you would see these dayworking nonhacks get promoted to Chiefs, get endorsed for LDO and yet they want everyone to believe that they earned thier khakis. Bovine Sewage. Respectfully, USN SPECOMM 1972-1993

AMEN, BROTHER. It's only gotten much worse since '93, too. I'm going to paste this on the other thread about Chiefs, so maybe some young Sailors can learn from this.

[jeffersj]

Left, Right, Left, Right. Putting on Khakies does not mean a damn thing if the person that puts it on does not rate it. Of all of the people that I saw that made chief, only one rated it. All of the others that made chief were all cheats, lazy, liars and non-hacks that could not handle being place on the radio watchbil, which was normally port and starboard, eight hours on and eight hours off forever. So the only thing that the division officer could do was place these nonhacks on dayworking status. This nonhacks while on dayworking would then have the time to attend the floating college and have enought time leftover to go out and get his surface warfare pin all at the expense of the hackers who busted thier donkey's by doing what was required of them. Later after being out of the radio watchbill you would see these dayworking nonhacks get promoted to Chiefs, get endorsed for LDO and yet they want everyone to believe that they earned thier khakis. Bovine Sewage. Respectfully, USN SPECOMM 1972-1993

Your opinion. No problem.

Yes, I've seen some make it into the Mess that left me scratching my head at how they ever made it through their first hitch, much less E-4. I've also seen a lot more that showed they were capable of doing the job and making things happen. Goes both ways.

Part of the problem is a lot of supervisors don't do the work to keep track of the good and bad things their subordinates do, so they can effectively counsel and do accurate evaluations on their Sailors. Part is simply the fact that some Sailors if they don't get what they think they deserve use tactics that reflect negatively on their maturity level, resulting in the senior wasting time dealing with spurious issues instead of leading their Sailors and making things happen for them, the command, and the Navy (not necessarily in that order).

In any event, thank you for your service and I hope your retirement is going well for you.

[Variable Wind]

Im going to go ahead and jump the gun here, but I think Yggdrasil is going to say something along the lines of

"if you dont support khakis then you must be a racist!"

[ringjamesa]

As somone not in the Navy and never really affiliated with the Navy (except being stationed at 2 primarily Navy locations), I must say I was kinda confused when I saw "kids" walking around in the new uniform. We actually stopped one and asked. He explained it was a new uniform combo. I thought it was odd but didn't think much of it. Just one more uniform for them to maintain-how many different uniforms does the Navy really need anyway? Dungarees, Kahakis, BDUs, Whites, etc...etc....etc....

[Variable Wind]

As somone not in the Navy and never really affiliated with the Navy (except being stationed at 2 primarily Navy locations), I must say I was kinda confused when I saw "kids" walking around in the new uniform. We actually stopped one and asked. He explained it was a new uniform combo. I thought it was odd but didn't think much of it. Just one more uniform for them to maintain-how many different uniforms does the Navy really need anyway? Dungarees, Kahakis, BDUs, Whites, etc...etc....etc....

your true colors show!!!

[Kyoowashugi]

Dungarees, Kahakis, BDUs, Whites, etc...etc....etc....

Dungarees will be gone, khakis more limited than they are now, BDUs changed, whites gone for all except chiefs and officers...etc., etc., etc.

[Yggdrasil]

Some people obviously don't know how to leave certain discussions in their original threads...

[Variable Wind]

I may have offended someones sensibilities. It just sucks when you say something and it comes back to bite you I guess.

[Yggdrasil]

It just sucks when you say something and it comes back to bite you I guess.

Dude, is that the point you're trying to make by following me around with this shit? Damn, son...

[Variable Wind]

Dude, is that the point you're trying to make by following me around with this shit? Damn, son...

huh?

Im sorry, was something the matter? Dont get off topic, and the profanity is a bit unprofessional.

[Yggdrasil]

huh?

Im sorry, was something the matter? Dont get off topic, and the profanity is a bit unprofessional.

The topic was about khaki, and the controversy sounding it being worn by E6 and below in the Navy. If that's not what you're here to discuss... if you're here to discuss something else, then there's a thread for it.

[Variable Wind]

The topic was about khaki, and the controversy sounding it being worn by E6 and below in the Navy. If that's not what you're here to discuss... if you're here to discuss something else, then there's a thread for it.

OH, thats what I was doing. I was providing YOUR logic for the arguement concerning the changes in the naval uniform. I do believe it was applied correctly. Dont get upset...you really are onto something...maybe the navy is promoting racist behavior here.

[LandLocked]

Too bad Navy Chiefs don't believe that.

Don't worry, you'll sell out and become a bloated bully just like all the rest of 'em. They all do. :(

You have issues. They don't all sell out. When I made CHIEF, I did not change a thing except what uniform I wore. I continued to do the things that got me here and never stopped taking care of My Sailors. So you need to just stiffle your BS comments and bold generalizations that hold absolutely no water. You are just making yourself look like an idiot who has no clue.

[euzkadiCA]

You have issues. They don't all sell out. When I made CHIEF, I did not change a thing except what uniform I wore. I continued to do the things that got me here and never stopped taking care of My Sailors. So you need to just stiffle your BS comments and bold generalizations that hold absolutely no water. You are just making yourself look like an idiot who has no clue.

Have to disagree, and if you do as you say, you are in the small minority. They majority of the Chiefs i have met in my 12 (still) active years were a waste at best and at worst manipulative, decietful, petty and spiteful. Maybe you are one of the good ones. But the by and large of what you represent is not the fallacy of the kind, caring leader who will teach you stuff while putting a boot in your butt. I can think of 4 or 5 that i would follow through anything...but the sum of effective leadership is 4 or 5?! You as a community put too much pride in those uniforms, history, heritage and in yourselves. You have decieved yourself into believing your own mythos. I wouldn't shed a tear to see the khaki go away. We are a modern naval service. Why are we still following antiquated quasi-British wooden boat ideas? Forge our own identity and be proud of that.

[jeffersj]

Have to disagree, and if you do as you say, you are in the small minority. They majority of the Chiefs i have met in my 12 (still) active years were a waste at best and at worst manipulative, decietful, petty and spiteful. Maybe you are one of the good ones. But the by and large of what you represent is not the fallacy of the kind, caring leader who will teach you stuff while putting a boot in your butt. I can think of 4 or 5 that i would follow through anything...but the sum of effective leadership is 4 or 5?! You as a community put too much pride in those uniforms, history, heritage and in yourselves. You have decieved yourself into believing your own mythos. I wouldn't shed a tear to see the khaki go away. We are a modern naval service. Why are we still following antiquated quasi-British wooden boat ideas? Forge our own identity and be proud of that.

And the majority of the Chiefs I met/served with in 28 years of service active and reserve on both sides of CONUS exhibited qualities that were the opposite of what you describe. But then, we each have our own experiences.

[euzkadiCA]

And the majority of the Chiefs I met/served with in 28 years of service active and reserve on both sides of CONUS exhibited qualities that were the opposite of what you describe. But then, we each have our own experiences.

Absolutely. Look, ive worked with some great people. But as a whole the Wardroom was more interested in protecting its little sandpile and the Goatlocker was interested in protecting its priviledges. Somewhere in between there i guess that they were supposed to be looking out for its people. So i did it for my people and got my ass handed to me way too many times. Chief so-and-so as a person no doubt is a great guy and exhibits those qualities. But as an organization or group, this sailors opinion is that the khaki is too focused on itself and forgot where it came from in the scramble to get where it got.

[ElectricElvis]

OK, I'm going to wade in here for a minute. I'll probably get shot at for it, but hey, mustard is almost khaki colored, right? Probably the closest I'll get to wearing khaki in the Navy... well, until the uniform shift, anyway.

IMHO, khakis are what they are because of the culture that creates them. In short, yeah, a lot of them are worse than worthless, but that is because they are from an even sampling of our shipmates who decided to go career. Statistically, a lot of the E6 and below sailors I work with are worthless at best, and flat out contrary to the Navy's core values at worst. It stands to reason we're not going to be able to weed them all out, so at some point, some of them are going to make rank.

That said, I've experienced a roughly 50/50 mix. I've had good chiefs who looked out for me and tore up stupid counselling chits for me, and I've had bad chiefs who would eat my food out of the fridge on my duty day and then lie to my face about it while they stabbed me in the back professionally. I've also had first and third class petty officers subject me to harsh standards that were imposed because of my gender. I don't assume that every first or third class petty officer is going to do that however; it has to be a case by case character evaluation on a basis of personal experience with a given individual.

We just have to deal with the sad, twisted little reality that not everyone is raised with an inherent sense of honor, justice, and loyalty, and that age 18 is too late to start trying to teach it to them. I can only pray that at some point the Navy will implement a feedback method so we can weed out the weaker links in our "Anchor Chain".


Come into the light, my friends...

[euzkadiCA]

Good post and spot on brother...
I tend to point out the negative things i see and wish fixed. Not all is ill in the USN. Good advice for everyone in this post. You shall be judged by the merit of your actions regardless of your pride, history, community, uniform or rank.

[DoABarrelRoll]

This thread is hilarious! I love it.

The people outside the frat are pissed because the frat acts like a frat! The frat guys are pissed because they are getting called on it. And still, somewhere, people are being told that they should be training to do the job above them instead of focusing on the job they are billeted to do.

[LOAL-D]

This thread is hilarious! I love it.

The people outside the frat are pissed because the frat acts like a frat! The frat guys are pissed because they are getting called on it. And still, somewhere, people are being told that they should be training to do the job above them instead of focusing on the job they are billeted to do.


Ah dig deeper Grasshopper,if you think that'sfunny you just scratched the surface of this forum...have fun

[smarg]

This thread is hilarious! I love it.

The people outside the frat are pissed because the frat acts like a frat! The frat guys are pissed because they are getting called on it. And still, somewhere, people are being told that they should be training to do the job above them instead of focusing on the job they are billeted to do.

That about sums it up. Go to the next page of threads and check out the one about navy chiefs. That one is even better. :tongue:

[jeffersj]

This thread is hilarious! I love it.

The people outside the frat are pissed because the frat acts like a frat! The frat guys are pissed because they are getting called on it. And still, somewhere, people are being told that they should be training to do the job above them instead of focusing on the job they are billeted to do.

Yeah, I do get a good horse laugh reading some of the comments. Especially when someone finds the right button to push and gets the desired reaction.

Serious note, and I learned this from experience, you not only need to focus on doing the job you are billited to do, you also need to focus on preparing to take on the job of the person over you for when they depart and you find out a relief is not onboard. Otherwise, doom on you professionally.

Conversely, you also need to be training the person below you to take your place. After all, one day you will leave due to PCS, discharge, retirement, death, or whatever. Would only make sense you trained someone to take over for you.

[euzkadiCA]

Simply beautiful. Out of the mouths of junior personnel comes wisdom. Unfortunately, those who have gotten to those positions insulate themselves with yes-men, butt-kissers and like minded individuals, away from the surly likes of people such as myself :) People who get the job done and want to simply improve things and do what is best for everyone. Guess thats why we have never gotten rid of Goatlockers and Wardrooms. They need a place to relax and get away from foul-mouthed sailors who are actually working. But thats they way of the world. The purpose of any system is to preserve the system, despite any noble individual intentions.