Navy Chiefs and their Khakis

[smarg]

I tell ya, if there was ever a rotten "caste" system dreamed up by egomaniacal goofs, this is it. The Navy Chiefs have got all the Services beat in this aspect. Yeah yeah, I know, the Navy has hundreds of years of tradition unencumbered by progress, but let's get real. You AIN'T officers, no matter how hard you wanna dress like them and have your separate messes and other assorted "perks". So, get off your high khaki horses and join the rest of the enlisted Sailors with pride.

I'm just sayin'. :eek:

[YomanDenver]

I tell ya, if there was ever a rotten "caste" system dreamed up by egomaniacal goofs, this is it. The Navy Chiefs have got all the Services beat in this aspect. Yeah yeah, I know, the Navy has hundreds of years of tradition unencumbered by progress, but let's get real. You AIN'T officers, no matter how hard you wanna dress like them and have your separate messes and other assorted "perks". So, get off your high khaki horses and join the rest of the enlisted Sailors with pride.

I'm just sayin'. :eek:

Some Chief must've pissed you off and this is your "vent safely" spot. Why not just start a blog, that nobody will read, to vent.

Most Chiefs I know try to work with their Sailors, even if they don't directly work under them. I've got a lot of faith in MOST of the Chief's Mess, they haven't let me down yet.

[X-Shirt]

Dude, I only wished the AF SNCO's got half the respect our Navy bretheren did, or that our E9's earned half the respect given to the Navy Chiefs (E7-E9). Sadly, neither is the case. On the plus side, us Zoomies don't have to buy all those damn Chief uniform combinations!

X-Shirt - and honorary Navy Chief (your Firehawk guys in Iraq were a lot of fun)!

[LibertyHound]

I tell ya, if there was ever a rotten "caste" system dreamed up by egomaniacal goofs, this is it. The Navy Chiefs have got all the Services beat in this aspect. You AIN'T officers, no matter how hard you wanna dress like them
...
...I'm just sayin'. :eek:
We knew we weren't Ossifers.

Our parents were married.

Your excuse??

[smarg]

Dude, I only wished the AF SNCO's got half the respect our Navy bretheren did, or that our E9's earned half the respect given to the Navy Chiefs (E7-E9).

You've hit on a valid point that I'll take to another level.

The Navy Chiefs have almost like a "gangster" union, and they've both extorted and hijacked the weak, PC Navy officer leadership into getting their will over the last ~25 years. Really, what they need is a strong CNO to calmly crush their nuts and put them back in their reasonable place. Just sayin'.

[hcshawk]

You've hit on a valid point that I'll take to another level.

The Navy Chiefs have almost like a "gangster" union, and they've both extorted and hijacked the weak, PC Navy officer leadership into getting their will over the last ~25 years. Really, what they need is a strong CNO to calmly crush their nuts and put them back in their reasonable place. Just sayin'.

The second you can throw rocks in your glass house and not break a window, I'll take your drivel seriously. :D

just sayin'.....:tongue:

[hcshawk]

Dude, I only wished the AF SNCO's got half the respect our Navy bretheren did, or that our E9's earned half the respect given to the Navy Chiefs (E7-E9). Sadly, neither is the case. On the plus side, us Zoomies don't have to buy all those damn Chief uniform combinations!

X-Shirt - and honorary Navy Chief (your Firehawk guys in Iraq were a lot of fun)!

Honorary Firehawk! Think I might know this Shirt....

www.hcs-5.org ;)

[jeffersj]

Now, now.

If smarg wishes to state his or her opinions regarding Chiefs, well that's fine. Not sure what prompted their outburst. If they wish to enlighten the rest of us, fine. If not, that's fine as well.

In the absence of them deigning to enlighten us as to what motivated their initial post, I'll simply form my own personal opinion regarding their maturity, intellectual ability, etc., and keep them to myself.

BTW, retired, still within height/weight standards and able to pass the PFA with no issues.

[LibertyHound]

BTW, retired, still within height/weight standards and able to pass the PFA with no issues.

BTW, retired, still able to pass the "Rip off your head and sh*t in your neck test" - but my wife thinks I'm a pussycat. :D

[Voyager57]

"Sad, really"

What I think is really sad is that you seem to be the only intellectual that can see these CPO ahortcomings from amongst all of the bright men and women, all the way to the CNO that you just disparaged.

I take it that with your vast intellect you are a retired SECDEF or at the very least a flag officer?

[smarg]

"Sad, really"

What I think is really sad is that you seem to be the only intellectual that can see these CPO ahortcomings from amongst all of the bright men and women, all the way to the CNO that you just disparaged.

I take it that with your vast intellect you are a retired SECDEF or at the very least a flag officer?

What's also sad is that there must be some Democrats on here getting my posts deleted...they hate it when the truth is being told. :rolleyes: So, I'll say it again...

It's just sad to see the way the extortive Chief's "union" has bogarted their way into ridiculous perks and privileges, unchecked by the careerist Officer corps who are mainly worried about their own advancement and could care less what the E-7 to E-9s do amongst themselves. It's probably too late to calmly "crush their nuts" without seeming like a dictator, but that's a trend that is out there.

Just sayin'.

[hcshawk]

What's also sad is that there must be some Democrats on here getting my posts deleted...they hate it when the truth is being told. :rolleyes: So, I'll say it again...

It's just sad to see the way the extortive Chief's "union" has bogarted their way into ridiculous perks and privileges, unchecked by the careerist Officer corps who are mainly worried about their own advancement and could care less what the E-7 to E-9s do amongst themselves. It's probably too late to calmly "crush their nuts" without seeming like a dictator, but that's a trend that is out there.

Just sayin'.

Easy to "tell the truth" from the safety of you computer....online....completely anonymous. Easy to say whatever the heck ya want to....without reprocussion.

So...did you ever march into you local Chief's mess, and truly speak your mind? If not, then lump yourself in with the Officers you speak of in your statement above. :D

[texas_native]

Wow, you sure are one bitter dude.

Your Chiefs have probably done more for you than you even realize, but you just want to bash them behind your computer, about "unchecked power" or something. Maybe they have actually earned what they have gotten, what you call ridiculous perks and priveleges.

[smarg]

Wow, you sure are one bitter dude.

Your Chiefs have probably done more for you than you even realize, but you just want to bash them behind your computer, about "unchecked power" or something. Maybe they have actually earned what they have gotten, what you call ridiculous perks and priveleges.

Yes, bitter about how the unchecked power (actually, it's a 'pseudo-power', because the officers could and should strip most of the silly stuff away) has turned out to be ruinous for my once Great Navy. Sigh. :(

[smarg]

Left, Right, Left, Right. Putting on Khakies does not mean a damn thing if the person that puts it on does not rate it. Of all of the people that I saw that made chief, only one rated it. All of the others that made chief were all cheats, lazy, liars and non-hacks that could not handle being place on the radio watchbil, which was normally port and starboard, eight hours on and eight hours off forever. So the only thing that the division officer could do was place these nonhacks on dayworking status. This nonhacks while on dayworking would then have the time to attend the floating college and have enought time leftover to go out and get his surface warfare pin all at the expense of the hackers who busted thier donkey's by doing what was required of them. Later after being out of the radio watchbill you would see these dayworking nonhacks get promoted to Chiefs, get endorsed for LDO and yet they want everyone to believe that they earned thier khakis. Bovine Sewage. Respectfully, USN SPECOMM 1972-1993

(Re-posted from another thread)

Enjoy.:)

[Retired old dog]

Dude, I only wished the AF SNCO's got half the respect our Navy bretheren did, or that our E9's earned half the respect given to the Navy Chiefs (E7-E9). Sadly, neither is the case. On the plus side, us Zoomies don't have to buy all those damn Chief uniform combinations!

X-Shirt - and honorary Navy Chief (your Firehawk guys in Iraq were a lot of fun)!


C’mon man!

I have worked with plenty of Senior Enlisted Airmen and I can tell you the ones who don’t garner the respect perhaps allow that to happen.

I once worked at a joint command with an Air Force E-9 and that guy demanded and got plenty of respect.

I’ve seen both weak and strong Senior Enlisted in all branches.

[forcedj]

C’mon man!

I once worked at a joint command with an Air Force E-9 and that guy demanded and got plenty of respect.


I know you may not have meant it this way…but it was always (and still is) my experience that someone who outwardly “demanded” respect was about the last person to receive it. (Example: Retired Navy Captain on the school board who demands to be called “Captain” by the other board members.)

Dan

[loekey]

I have had the oppurtunity to work with all branches of service and Navy Chiefs rule the world in the Navy. Khaki wearers as they are called are given the highest respect from the lower ranks. Same for the Marines, they respect and are taught to repsect the rank of anyone who has one more stripe than they have. I once worked with a Marine Gunny (E7) and had just began to learn the rank structure. I spoke to him on the phone on day and had not known he had got promoted. I started the convo off with hey Gunny whats up? How is your day? He quickly corrected me and informed he was now a MSgt. It was then that I was given a quick listen on how the other services differ from the AF when it comes to rank. The Army seems to start getting respect once they attain the rank of SSG (E6). In the AF, well now thats a whole different story. A person does not start getting the respect a Navy Chief (E7) gets until they are a SRMSgt (E8). The AF seems not to know what to do with their MSgts (E7). For example, in the flight ops AFSC/MOS E7s were pushed back out to the line. They were not utilized in the management postions SRNCOs are expected to fill. Some found themselves back doing the same jobs they had been doing as when they were E6/E5s. I do admire the sisters services on the repsect their SRNCOs get vs the AF. Now some will say, you should demand the respect. True, we can do that but as someone stated if you have to do that then you have not earned it. Somewhere along the way the AF losts its way. When I first entered the AF, anyone below the rank of SSgt (E5) did not look a Chief (E9) in the eyes. When you say the Chief headed your way you crossed the street. Same for SRMSgts. MSgts ruled the world, and back then the TSgt (E6) were the hatchet men. I have a outstanding Marine Sgt (E5) working for me, hard charging take charge kinda of person. I get a big kick when he corrects an Airmen using the Marine mentality. They come to me complaining about how they have been spoken to. I shake my head, stick a bottle in their mouths, burb them and send them on their way. My, how times have changed.

[hcshawk]

Easy to "tell the truth" from the safety of you computer....online....completely anonymous. Easy to say whatever the heck ya want to....without reprocussion.

So...did you ever march into you local Chief's mess, and truly speak your mind? If not, then lump yourself in with the Officers you speak of in your statement above. :D

Hmmm....seems to me that the dialouge that Smarg and I exchanged in response to this question is missing. :confused:

[Boats]

Wow, you sure are one bitter dude.

Your Chiefs have probably done more for you than you even realize, but you just want to bash them behind your computer, about "unchecked power" or something. Maybe they have actually earned what they have gotten, what you call ridiculous perks and priveleges.


Yeah,

Sounds like he really wanted to join the ranks of a CPO, but couldn't quite make it over the hump. Now his inadequacy is all of a sudden the fault of the CPO Mess. Go figure.

[smarg]

Yeah,

Sounds like he really wanted to join the ranks of a CPO, but couldn't quite make it over the hump. Now his inadequacy is all of a sudden the fault of the CPO Mess. Go figure.

Negative. Never had the desire to be a hippo in a dirty khaki uniform. :D

[LandLocked]

Negative. Never had the desire to be a hippo in a dirty khaki uniform. :D

Just remember....we riducle that which we do not understand. And since he was never privy to being in the mess, he will never understand what being a CHIEF is all about and therefor ridicule the mess. I used to think along similar lines (not so drastic though), but then I was selected, initiated (yep, I said it), trained, and accepted. Now I have the understand to really appreciate all that the CHIEF's that I worked for have really done for me and my shipmates. It is just sad that one would have to stoop to this level and bash what is not understood in such a public forum. Like was said before, you should have just started a blog somewhere where you could vent and noone would read. I certainly hope that you feel better now that you were able to get whatever it is off your chest. Somewhere, someone did you wrong....that's all I can think of that would cause so much hatred. Good luck to you in your life.

I'm just saying

[Battleshort]

Just remember....we riducle that which we do not understand. And since he was never privy to being in the mess, he will never understand what being a CHIEF is all about and therefor ridicule the mess. I used to think along similar lines (not so drastic though), but then I was selected, initiated (yep, I said it), trained, and accepted. Now I have the understand to really appreciate all that the CHIEF's that I worked for have really done for me and my shipmates. It is just sad that one would have to stoop to this level and bash what is not understood in such a public forum. Like was said before, you should have just started a blog somewhere where you could vent and noone would read. I certainly hope that you feel better now that you were able to get whatever it is off your chest. Somewhere, someone did you wrong....that's all I can think of that would cause so much hatred. Good luck to you in your life.

I'm just saying


Just consider the source. Smarge is in the Airforce.

[Your_Name_Here]

Just consider the source. Smarge is in the Airforce.

Hey! No one likes accusations w/o proof--can you prove your statement?:tongue:

[forcedj]

Hey! No one likes accusations w/o proof--can you prove your statement?:tongue:


It’s pretty obvious. Click on his user name and look through some of his posts. He professes some sort of authority regarding something he refers to as the AF fighter pilot mentality. Look at some of the things he says, and the excessive number of posts he makes and I think you’ll agree that there’s a little more (or less) going on than just what he’s spewing off about. But he’s predictable. He’ll come back with something about being a “fat Navy Chief” or whatever. Yet he doesn’t have the audacity to identify himself or what he does.

[Battleshort]

It’s pretty obvious. Click on his user name and look through some of them. He professes some sort of authority regarding something he refers to as the AF fighter pilot mentality. Look at some of the things he says, and the excessive number of posts he makes and I think you’ll agree that there’s a little more (or less) going on than just what he’s spewing off about. But he’s predictable. He’ll come back with something about being a “fat Navy Chief” or whatever. Yet he doesn’t have the audacity to identify himself or what he does.

Yea - what he said!:)

[Your_Name_Here]

It’s pretty obvious. Click on his user name and look through some of them. He professes some sort of authority regarding something he refers to as the AF fighter pilot mentality. Look at some of the things he says, and the excessive number of posts he makes and I think you’ll agree that there’s a little more (or less) going on than just what he’s spewing off about. But he’s predictable. He’ll come back with something about being a “fat Navy Chief” or whatever. Yet he doesn’t have the audacity to identify himself or what he does.

"Away put your weapon; I mean you no harm..."

I know it's obvious; I was being facetious. To be fair, the tongue smiley is the closest I can come to conveying that.

As for revealing identities: a couple of mos. ago, I would have agreed 100%. These days, in light of recent events that have cost one member (OIFCOMBATVET) his RIGHT to post here...that's not so simple to decide.

[F/A-18 AOC]

He sounds like a disgruntled ship's company sailor who got booted out of the Navy for making too many wrong choices. He's too stupid to figure out that he has no one to blame for all his misery but himself, however he gets his relief by blaming the very same Chiefs that booted him out. He's probably an only child from a divorced home so he was never held accountable for any wrong doings until he joined the Navy. Once here he couldn't handle responsibility and folded under pressure. Now he sits in his room blogging on his computer (pretty much whining) about how the Navy Chiefs ruined his Naval career and how we are a bunch of power-hungry babies. Sorry junior, time to take responsibility for your own actions and quit pointing fingers at others!

[smarg]

He sounds like a disgruntled ship's company sailor who got booted out of the Navy for making too many wrong choices. He's too stupid to figure out that he has no one to blame for all his misery but himself, however he gets his relief by blaming the very same Chiefs that booted him out. He's probably an only child from a divorced home so he was never held accountable for any wrong doings until he joined the Navy. Once here he couldn't handle responsibility and folded under pressure. Now he sits in his room blogging on his computer (pretty much whining) about how the Navy Chiefs ruined his Naval career and how we are a bunch of power-hungry babies. Sorry junior, time to take responsibility for your own actions and quit pointing fingers at others!

:D :D :D :D

[jeffersj]

Not sure what the issue Smarg has with us is.

Like anyone else they are entitled to their opinions regardless of how repugnant any of us find them to be.

At this point the best thing would be to simply no longer pay attention to them and see if they move on to somewhere else to get the attention they seek.

[euzkadiCA]

Cheers to smarg! Reaallly sick of the i put on khaki, now im the fountain of unfailing knowledge attitude. Look, every other branch has a single uniform for everyone. You get these cool little things called devices that distinguish what rank you are. What else do you need? Oh, a private clubhouse and a chowhall would be nice. Grow up. Personally would get rid of the whole entitlement. And im not angry at some goat. Just think that the arguments for are based on protecting the status quo and that it is a form of segregation. The only defense is some tradition or heritage nonsense. Smacks of forgetting where you came from and elitism. Not welcome at all. Respect will be earned by your actions and not an different colored uniform. Example: the angry furor over the New Service Uniform. The cries of spoiled children and "earning the khaki". Unfortunately the great Chief is few and far between, and the fantasy of this mentor is just that...a fantasy. But its your lie...tell it how you want to. :rolleyes:

Much love to the 4 or 5 decent khaki i have met in my 12 years active. Pretty sad odds. Be proud of yourselves, you've groomed a culture where the people you depend on by and large resent you.

[smarg]

Cheers to smarg! Reaallly sick of the i put on khaki, now im the fountain of unfailing knowledge attitude. Look, every other branch has a single uniform for everyone. You get these cool little things called devices that distinguish what rank you are. What else do you need? Oh, a private clubhouse and a chowhall would be nice. Grow up. Personally would get rid of the whole entitlement. And im not angry at some goat. Just think that the arguments for are based on protecting the status quo and that it is a form of segregation. The only defense is some tradition or heritage nonsense. Smacks of forgetting where you came from and elitism. Not welcome at all. Respect will be earned by your actions and not an different colored uniform. Example: the angry furor over the New Service Uniform. The cries of spoiled children and "earning the khaki". Unfortunately the great Chief is few and far between, and the fantasy of this mentor is just that...a fantasy. But its your lie...tell it how you want to. :rolleyes:

Much love to the 4 or 5 decent khaki i have met in my 12 years active. Pretty sad odds. Be proud of yourselves, you've groomed a culture where the people you depend on by and large resent you.

Thanks. I put on this site what MANY, MANY, folks feel about the subject but are too timid to do it themselves.

The Navy "Chief" culture is, indeed, rotten to the core. :eek:

[forcedj]

Much love to the 4 or 5 decent khaki i have met in my 12 years active. Pretty sad odds. Be proud of yourselves, you've groomed a culture where the people you depend on by and large resent you.

Interesting though that all those sailors you refer to that “resent” Chiefs themselves continue to strive for attaining the rank and recognition…yourself included...unless you tell us that in your 12 years you have not tried to advance in rate.

You, and others, imply that the separate uniforms for Chiefs and the privileges afforded them is something new. Chiefs have been wearing uniforms separate from junior petty officers for well over 100 years. They’ve had separate messing and berthing for just about as long. Other services are the same with regard to messing and berthing for senior enlisted personnel. I’ve been stationed on both Army and Air Force installations that have separate barracks, clubs, and other privileges for senior enlisted too.

[euzkadiCA]

Dont care about the rank nor the recognition. Unless by that you mean that i get paid more sure, dont know many of us that wouldn't admit to wanting more money. And my advancement has been what it is, but i never shirked my work to go study. Never even studied.
Here we go with the same old argument of history and tradition again. Hey look dude, 100 years ago we were on wooden ships and eating gruel, but things have changed and so have societal norms and technology. Please dont tell me you want to go back to that. Other branches with the aforementioned facilities have them on a base or a fort with plenty of room. And how many times has those same barracks/messing deployed...? Oh, thats right, they dont, they stay on that same base with all sorts of room for gun ranges and flightlines. Submariners spend most of their E-5 and below time hot-racking so those same people you defend can enjoy those "priviledges".
Haven't heard anything that convinces me or i haven't heard a thousand times before. Still waiting. And the argument of "thats the way it's always been" wouldn't fly with my chiefs, so i am not going to let it fly here either.

[forcedj]

Dont care about the rank nor the recognition...
And my advancement has been what it is, but i never shirked my work to go study. Never even studied...

Other branches with the aforementioned facilities have them on a base or a fort with plenty of room. And how many times has those same barracks/messing deployed...? Oh, thats right, they dont, they stay on that same base with all sorts of room for gun ranges and flightlines.

Submariners spend most of their E-5 and below time hot-racking so those same people you defend can enjoy those "priviledges".


That’s right. And those Chiefs enjoying those privileges now hot racked when they were junior enlisted so the Chiefs before them could enjoy those privileges. Are you trying to tell us that “your Chiefs” don’t sleep in CPO berthing, they don’t eat in the Chiefs Mess, don’t take advantage of extended liberty hours or head of the line and other privileges? Never?
If you don’t like the uniforms; the rank structure; don’t agree with the privileges afforded to certain ranks; don’t enjoy the command or type of service you’re assigned to…then clearly you ought to be in one of those other services.

[Wereldboom]

Honestly, I don't understand why someone with 12 years of service is going to have that mentality.

There are, however, pros and cons to having separate uniforms. We're witnessing one of the cons right now: that is, someone who doesn't believe that they will get to wear the khakis themselves rebelling against those who do wear them.

[euzkadiCA]

That’s right. And those Chiefs enjoying those privileges now hot racked when they were junior enlisted so the Chiefs before them could enjoy those privileges. Are you trying to tell us that “your Chiefs” don’t sleep in CPO berthing, they don’t eat in the Chiefs Mess, don’t take advantage of extended liberty hours or head of the line and other privileges? Never?
If you don’t like the uniforms; the rank structure; don’t agree with the privileges afforded to certain ranks; don’t enjoy the command or type of service you’re assigned to…then clearly you ought to be in one of those other services.

So because they used to do it back in the day its a legitimate reason to keep doing it? Not a good reason. I love my service, currently serving in Afghanistan, my 3rd combat tour. I have seen good and bad from every service. Never once have i said anything about not enjoying my service. The points i bring up are about modernizing our service and coming into the 21 Century. Too many bad ideas are propigated in the name of history or tradition. I dont hate it, just say that there are things that could be better. It has nothing to do with me or my rank or possibilities of making E-7, or being bitter. I show up to work every day with a smile on my face, glad to be serving my glorious country in the combat zone. Funny thing is, you wouldn't know i had these views meeting me, because i'm the guy next to you.

[sandangel2001]

Thanks. I put on this site what MANY, MANY, folks feel about the subject but are too timid to do it themselves.

The Navy "Chief" culture is, indeed, rotten to the core. :eek:
WOW... If I could point to ONE thing that I am glad for..Is that The Selection and initiation process to be a NAVY CHIEF weeds out those who are not qualified to lead. There is a reason that SENIOR ENLISTED PERSONNEL ( from all services ) have entitlements: THEY WORKED TO EARN THEM!!! Much like civilian life you work hard you get paid well you earn privileges. It is about being the best they can, and being rewarded for it!


Three words:

High
Year
Tenure

Bye-bye.]
Praise the lord... :rolleyes: Can't wait for my someone to retire!!!!


One final thing...get ready...

If the CNO had any cojones, here's how he could correct the whole chief "problem" on a Monday morning in his office...

He is not crazy.. A GREAT chief can get more done in one hour on the phone than most shiny new officers... The navy would be at a stand still without coffee, diesel fuel and it's chief's!!

As a by-stander... I'm just sayin...

[DoABarrelRoll]

WOW... If I could point to ONE thing that I am glad for..Is that The Selection and initiation process to be a NAVY CHIEF weeds out those who are not qualified to lead. There is a reason that SENIOR ENLISTED PERSONNEL ( from all services ) have entitlements: THEY WORKED TO EARN THEM!!! Much like civilian life you work hard you get paid well you earn privileges. It is about being the best they can, and being rewarded for it!


Selection boards and initiation gets rid of the crappy ones? OMFG come on now, that is a bit much. If that was really their purpose they would have interviews during the selection boards, and the initiation would be more than the pledge week that it is.

...


He is not crazy.. A GREAT chief can get more done in one hour on the phone than most shiny new officers... The navy would be at a stand still without coffee, diesel fuel and it's chief's!!
To the first part of this statement... that is just silly. Of course the foreman is going to have more job experience than the office manager. The sad truth is without coffee there would be less to clean, without chiefs there would be less to clean, and without diesel-juice there wouldn't be giant engines to clean.
As a by-stander... I'm just sayin...

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/Tarkus/FacePalm.jpg

[sandangel2001]

THANKS!! ALWAYS FUN TO TALK TO THE DISGRUNTLED....
[SIZE="2"][Admittedly, I am somewhat biased. I do believe however that having been around all varied military (save coasties ) on both sides of the officer fence that I can speak with some ... unbiased "opinion" . Of course the proper retort from you would be that fact that I do not ACTUALLY "serve" I am the S/O ( daughter, sis etc ) to those who do..... So I said it for you.
Now... maybe you serve with some real heels; but I hear countless stories of Chiefs going out of their way to assist the men that serve with them. INCLUDING going overseas in their stead if necessary!!! I have been the one to answer the phone at two in the morning when someone needs "chief" !
And I have heard MANY fine officers from various branches PRAISE the efficiency of the "Chiefs" in dire situation. [/COLOR]

Selection boards and initiation gets rid of the crappy ones? OMFG come on now, that is a bit much. If that was really their purpose they would have interviews during the selection boards, and the initiation would be more than the pledge week that it is.
Hmmm. SELECTION BOARDS ... YEP!! Is it perfect ... NOPE but much like voting it is a system and until someone finds a better way! I do liken the process to that in industry.. you can only fake it for so long... then all the people you piss off on the way up the ladder are the one's that you rely on ... GUESS what? They do not care if you fail. So they wash out. A crappy chief gets washed out, or stuck in some crappy desk job where he can "do no harm"


To the first part of this statement... that is just silly. Of course the foreman is going to have more job experience than the office manager. The sad truth is without coffee there would be less to clean, without chiefs there would be less to clean, and without diesel-juice there wouldn't be giant engines to clean.
The point was that they have MORE CONTACTS not just experience. (( unclear ))
Have to say this as it cracked me up.... WHAT DO YOU HAVE AGAINST COFFEE!!!!!!!!!!
With politicians ... ok without people who have no business sticking there nose in where it does not belong ...ok .... but by and large the chiefs DO HAVE EXPERIENCE< AND CONTACTS.. so if there is a mess they have probably cleaned something like it.
Diesel ... well stinky and messy but again... when you have a substitute by all means...

The face plant thing was cute though...
I wish i could find the stash of military ones I have floating around...
Wait.. Let me ask Chief... he'll know!!!
night!

[smarg]

sandangel2001;217530]WOW... If I could point to ONE thing that I am glad for..Is that The Selection and initiation process to be a NAVY CHIEF weeds out those who are not qualified to lead. There is a reason that SENIOR ENLISTED PERSONNEL ( from all services ) have entitlements: THEY WORKED TO EARN THEM!!! Much like civilian life you work hard you get paid well you earn privileges. It is about being the best they can, and being rewarded for it!

If only this dream were true. Instead, the chief's "union" uses the selection and initiation process as an elitist tool to abuse both non-rates and their "privileges".

It's sad, really, when you see the decay. :(

[sandangel2001]

Here is the thing... Whether or not we like it, in both industry and the military there has to be SOME form of "advancement". It is a tool used to inspire people, it is associated with perks, and pay. Let's be perfectly honest, you work your a&& off and each year we get a COLA, ( what ever your service or industry calls it ) BUT you also get a MERIT raise when you're a civilian. Military does not give Merit raises ((yes I know about pay points and the occasional re-upping bonus if you were in the select few)
What the military DOES have is a fairly systematic procedure for advancement through the ranks. Given you perform to the minimum requirements << I will add NOT piss off the WRONG people >> This is your equivalent merit raise, sucky as it is. The longer you work the more you make, and much like civilian life, and life in general.. THERE are privileges to growing old.. You earn them much like respect from children, for having done a GOOD job. There are bad managers in all walks of life, from the small business to corporate America. But again, if you stick around long enough the past catches up to you. You have to rely on all the people you walked on. Frankly, being in "management" sucks, the BS you see and all the whiny stories about why things did not get done. It comes back to haunt the chief or the manager. He or she get's crap from both ends. Those beneath them and from those above.
So I still do not understand why the obsession with Navy chiefs??
Why not corporations, or politicians.
And instead of complaining .. Be someone to suggest a LEGITIMATE alternative. Not just can them all. How would you promote with in the military, who makes the decisions, based on what factors?



If only this dream were true. Instead, the chief's "union" uses the selection and initiation process as an elitist tool to abuse both non-rates and their "privileges".

It's sad, really, when you see the decay. :(

[smarg]

And instead of complaining .. Be someone to suggest a LEGITIMATE alternative. Not just can them all. How would you promote with in the military, who makes the decisions, based on what factors?

The issue is not the Navy's enlisted promotion system, it's the routine and inculcated elitism and abuse of privileges amongst Navy E-7 to E-9s that is offensive to MANY. Not all Sailors sell out when they put on the officer-like khakis, but unfortunately, a majority of them do. Is it human nature? Yes.

This situation has been compared to what the UAW union eventually did to the automakers: destroyed them. The so-called Chief's "union", having grown fat and powerful (mainly due to senior officer malaise), has become similar in effect.

It merits discussion because of the severity of its impact, but as we all see here, the scam's "protection society" will come out to defend itself. I mean, why not, when someone is exposing another's easy ride on a gravy train? :confused:

[sandangel2001]

First the definition : Elitism –noun
1. practice of or belief in rule by an elite.
2. consciousness of or pride in belonging to a select or favored group.

Do I think both apply. Yep. IF you use the phrase "loosely" then the men serving UNDER a chief would fall into category one. (( I do mean loosely.. )) As I know a chief or two who will admit the men serving under him know a thing or two that he does not. ( not that they would admit it in public )
BUT # 2
OH HECK YEAH!!!
Regardless of what service you are in their should and must be a consciousness of PRIDE in belonging to a select group. It is the backbone of military service, pride in what you do, and your country. This SHOULD apply to any rank!!! My nephew just earned his stripe, GUESS what he is PROUD as hell. I specifically asked him by the way, if he has had any problems with his chief's during training and he said that they were hard, especially since he is an officers son. BUT if there were Q's that needed answers etc..they were available. ((so again I have yet to personally see or hear of BAD ones)) some are better than others true enough but straight out bad...
As for abuse of privileges:
First, are you saying that they have not earned the privilege?
Second, If they are truly abusing the system, report it.
My inkling is you do not believe there should be any privilege, period.
As for UAW. The UAW killed the American car companies many years ago, I agree that they are outdated and dysfunctional. They serve "protect" there members and managed to protect them right out of jobs.
They negotiated contracts that to make a long story short forces the car companies to price their vehicles competitively. In addition should the employer fire a worker for any reason the said worker receives 90% of their pay for 2 years.
I see no direct comparison. The chiefs function as a go between lower enlisted and officers. They are highly trained, competent men and women. Many of whom hold degrees and should be officers.
Do they have entitlements.. Yes Did they earn them. YES.
(( Are their bad apples anywhere ..YES ))
Again I ask you, please cite a specific problem; offer a solution. You can not keep say inculculating elitism and then not giving an example.





The issue is not the Navy's enlisted promotion system, it's the routine and inculcated elitism and abuse of privileges amongst Navy E-7 to E-9s that is offensive to MANY. Not all Sailors sell out when they put on the officer-like khakis, but unfortunately, a majority of them do. Is it human nature? Yes.

This situation has been compared to what the UAW union eventually did to the automakers: destroyed them. The so-called Chief's "union", having grown fat and powerful (mainly due to senior officer malaise), has become similar in effect.

It merits discussion because of the severity of its impact, but as we all see here, the scam's "protection society" will come out to defend itself. I mean, why not, when someone is exposing another's easy ride on a gravy train? :confused:

[DoABarrelRoll]

When Communist China first stood on its newly formed legs as a government, they had areas designated for complaining (and encouraged it) with the rational that in order for things to actually get better people have to vent their frustrations. Just a little history.

What is the first step of problem solving, people? You needn't keep telling people completing the first step to stop if they can't get to step 2 by themselves. Hate to say it, but that is a failure in leadership. (specifically the "I don't want to hear about the labor pains, I just want to see the baby" mentality that has been offered up to those who complain).

[Yggdrasil]

When Communist China first stood on its newly formed legs as a government, they had areas designated for complaining (and encouraged it) with the rational that in order for things to actually get better people have to vent their frustrations. Just a little history.

What is the first step of problem solving, people? You needn't keep telling people completing the first step to stop if they can't get to step 2 by themselves. Hate to say it, but that is a failure in leadership. (specifically the "I don't want to hear about the labor pains, I just want to see the baby" mentality that has been offered up to those who complain).

Well, you can't always do that - the way I see it, addressing people's complaints too much, valid or not, will eventually undermine your authority as a leader.

[sandangel2001]

Having a forum to express ideas, as well as frustrations when given in a constructive manner is and should be encouraged. Many governments give the people the opportunity to challenge the status quo. Marxism (theoretical basis for communism see dialectics) at the MOST basic form encourages critical thinking by the people. That china moved from Socialism (Marxism) to communism in it's current form is the will of MEN.
The UAW and the Chiefs offer forums to offer improvement. ( NOT a fan of UAW by any means ) Like any corporation however reckless critic with that offers NO solution IS destructive to moral and the welfare of the entity. ((Think the nagging person who just complains about the food, the boss, the weather... no good comes of it.))
So MOST entities encourage free thought and discussion but bring a solution to the table.
(((I ADMIT I DID NOT ASK SO I MAY BE WRONG ON THAT PART .. In my corporate experience a gripe with a solution is welcome!! )))


When Communist China first stood on its newly formed legs as a government, they had areas designated for complaining (and encouraged it) with the rational that in order for things to actually get better people have to vent their frustrations. Just a little history.

What is the first step of problem solving, people? You needn't keep telling people completing the first step to stop if they can't get to step 2 by themselves. Hate to say it, but that is a failure in leadership. (specifically the "I don't want to hear about the labor pains, I just want to see the baby" mentality that has been offered up to those who complain).

** Note Fact finding....



Flexibility

This procedure looks as if one moves neatly from step to step. This isn't the case. These steps simply provide a structure for working on the problem. They overlap, and you may have to return to earlier steps or work them simultaneously as you find the best solution.

Examples of flexibility:

* Information gathering occurs in all steps—from recognition of the problem to implementation of its solution
* New information may force you to redefine the problem
* Alternatives may be unworkable, and you'll have to find new ones
* Some steps may be combined or abbreviated
Beckno, John, Action Officer, Chapter 3, Army's Headquarters Training and Doctrine Command, Fort Monroe, Virginia

[CUSEFAN21]

Hey there is absolutely nothing wrong with the way CPO's operate, if you think about it they actually have even more responsibility than ever before due to cut backs and the shrinking military and biased as i am i wished i would have made Chief but i never did knowing i pissed many a persons off over my 20 years because i wasn't a yes man but i knew my job and i do hate the way it's ran during selection time.. They need to overhaul the whole US Navy advancement and let those who are good at their jobs go forward i saw way to many inexperienced sailors put on khaki's jand become leaders of men and women but didn;t earn the respect just because many were yes men, always in the limelight and got all the accolades when 90% of the time they didn;t deserve it

[jeffersj]

Hey there is absolutely nothing wrong with the way CPO's operate, if you think about it they actually have even more responsibility than ever before due to cut backs and the shrinking military and biased as i am i wished i would have made Chief but i never did knowing i pissed many a persons off over my 20 years because i wasn't a yes man but i knew my job and i do hate the way it's ran during selection time.. They need to overhaul the whole US Navy advancement and let those who are good at their jobs go forward i saw way to many inexperienced sailors put on khaki's jand become leaders of men and women but didn;t earn the respect just because many were yes men, always in the limelight and got all the accolades when 90% of the time they didn;t deserve it

Yes, there are some issues.

Probably the biggest, though, lies with the Sailor going up for Chief. A lot of guys don't take ownership of their evals and give their LPO/Chief garbaage to work with. Believe it or not, as a group we really do invest a lot of effort into writing your evals.

As you know, once you make board they will review your record to see if you demonstrate the potential to perform and succeed at the level expected by the Navy of a Chief. They are not rewarding you for past performance - they are using it to determine your potential.

That said, the only clear picture the board has for you is your performance evaluations. Yes, the personal awards, degrees, etc., are nice, but the only clear picture the board has is your evals. An outstanding Sailor whose record does not give the board the information they need to put them in perspective with the other candidates can easily not be selected. A medicore Sailor whose record gives the board what they need could find themselves being selected and in over their heads. I got that information straight from a CMC several years ago who had just sat on a board during a cycle where I was passed over.

Best way to overcome this is read the feedback from the active and reserve selection boards (they share a number of common ideas) and use that to help you initiate your evals as well as tweak your performance. Even a Second Class should do this as it is not unknown for a panel to look at those evals in cases where two candidates are so closely matched that they need to really dig deeply to break the tie.

Another CMC that was a YNCM also told our command during a debrief that you can use the statement to add information to your evaluation that there was not room for on the form. You just need to make sure it is meaningful information.

[jrtmanmd]

Chiefs are the backbone of the Navy, who else is going to properly train all of those young, green, wet behind the ears officers? :cool:

[Yggdrasil]

Chiefs are the backbone of the Navy, who else is going to properly train all of those young, green, wet behind the ears officers? :cool:

In the other services, ALL NCOs are tasked with this.

[jeffersj]

In the other services, ALL NCOs are tasked with this.

Last time I looked, there was nothing saying you can't do that now, especially if there is no Chief and you are the senior enlisted person.

For that matter, while I know a few things about admin, service records, etc., I'm a BMC. You as a PS1 are one of my subject matter experts and I would go to you for information on those topics as a rule as I would expect you to know what you're talking about.

Yes, I am aware that there was a mindset amongst some that unless an enlisted person wore khaki's they weren't really competent. Never thought that was right as a white hat, didn't practice that kind of nonsense as a Chief.

[pawn65]

Last time I looked, there was nothing saying you can't do that now, especially if there is no Chief and you are the senior enlisted person.

For that matter, while I know a few things about admin, service records, etc., I'm a BMC. You as a PS1 are one of my subject matter experts and I would go to you for information on those topics as a rule as I would expect you to know what you're talking about.

Yes, I am aware that there was a mindset amongst some that unless an enlisted person wore khaki's they weren't really competent. Never thought that was right as a white hat, didn't practice that kind of nonsense as a Chief.


I disagree with who ever has that mindset while im not the highest enlisted person out there when you know you know what you do the best out of anyone in the command, you usually get respect for what you know and that is why they come to you. I think most people have a problem with the chiefs that have the gut a foot past their belt buckle and somehow mysteriously pass the PFA. I for one think if you have khakis on should be out there running the PFA with the rest of the command not run it before, because that makes people wonder especially when all the officer's are out there running it with the enlisted. We dont have that problem with the Seabees because everyone is out there running it together. I think there are lots of good chiefs out there, and most give you respect when you know what your talking about. I remember a time when we had a certain master chief that i was like i think he hates my guts, but when stuff got bad in my personal life. He sat down and talked to me about it and so did my chief.

[Pollywog]

Well, I can see both sides of this. However, I lean to the side of the Chiefs on this one. I mean look, if you put up with 8 to 15 years of life in the US Navy wouldn't you want some perks? I met a Chief who was working on divorce number 5, had many bastard children throughout the world, failing health, bad vision, broken bones, dead liver etc., .,
After 15 years of life in the Navy he was in bad shape. Let him have his own recliner in the lounge. The poor guy needs it.

[Battleshort]

Well, I can see both sides of this. However, I lean to the side of the Chiefs on this one. I mean look, if you put up with 8 to 15 years of life in the US Navy wouldn't you want some perks? I met a Chief who was working on divorce number 5, had many bastard children throughout the world, failing health, bad vision, broken bones, dead liver etc., .,
After 15 years of life in the Navy he was in bad shape. Let him have his own recliner in the lounge. The poor guy needs it.

Spoken like one of the true career E-2's.

[Pollywog]

Spoken like one of the true career E-2's.

Haha, that was funny. Really,.. Sounds like something I would say. Sadly though, I was honorably discharged as an E-5. Personally, I believe doing more than 1 term in ANY branch of the military is complete lunacy. It's like having someone slap you in the ball sack for 4 years solid and when they ask if you want more you exlaim with renewed vigor, "YES CHIEF!"
I went through one divorce that was 100% related to being deployed back to back to back. I knew if I ever wanted to have a relationship with anyone that didn't stink like mop water and diesel fuel I'd have to sep. Best choice I ever made. Well, second best choice. First would be joining in the first place.

[smarg]

I say, crush the Chief's Mafia. Crush it because it's a bloated, unkempt monster, just like many many Chiefs on active duty today.

[LibertyHound]

I say, crush the Chief's Mafia. Crush it because it's a bloated, unkempt monster, just like many many Chiefs on active duty today.
And, realistically - that's all you have the power to do, is....... Say

And to say it in the presence of this "bloated, unkempt monster" you mention so casually here, your horizons would be eternally and negatively broadened with the multitude of nefarious concepts way beyond your limited imagination of that ill-advised word, "Crush"


Dante may have descended the nine levels of hell - but didn't plumb the depths of those who f*cked with Navy Chiefs.....

[sandangel2001]

Haha, that was funny. Really,.. Sounds like something I would say. Sadly though, I was honorably discharged as an E-5. Personally, I believe doing more than 1 term in ANY branch of the military is complete lunacy. It's like having someone slap you in the ball sack for 4 years solid and when they ask if you want more you exlaim with renewed vigor, "YES CHIEF!"
I went through one divorce that was 100% related to being deployed back to back to back. I knew if I ever wanted to have a relationship with anyone that didn't stink like mop water and diesel fuel I'd have to sep. Best choice I ever made. Well, second best choice. First would be joining in the first place.

PW.. I am disappointed in you. You learn from experience and NAVY is not for everyone. Very true! Think through what you said, if no one re-upped then who would be left to pull the young un's A&& out of the cracks and pass down the wisdom.
Some CHIEFS are wonderful, My chief re-upped, turned down a DANG good job in the civilian area because of the "boys", and I speak to them. They wanted him with, needed him with and I am DAMN proud of him!
:)

[euzkadiCA]

Dante may have descended the nine levels of hell - but didn't plumb the depths of those who f*cked with Navy Chiefs.....

Render honors to the Bullsh*t Flag. This entire entire thread is aout that very same attitude. The posturing and vainglorious pride that serves the E-7 and above community so ill. You just made another rank. Thats it. There is nothing special or wise about making another paygrade. As i have stated before in my 11 nearly 12 in i have met 4 Chiefs worth anything. In general the rest are E-7's not worth the time considering. Not a very good showing. My experience has been that the community is more self invested and spends more time looking out for its perks than making life better or easier for those below. Either that or they are locked in the Goat Locket playing X-box.
Be proud of what you accomplished, sure. But the bully tactics and initiation or whatever you call the hazing ritual now need to go away. It has no place in a modern military service. I believe the Navy would be stronger and better by ridding ourselves of all the history and tradition nonsense that keeps us from having a better quality of life.

[pawn65]

Render honors to the Bullsh*t Flag. This entire entire thread is aout that very same attitude. The posturing and vainglorious pride that serves the E-7 and above community so ill. You just made another rank. Thats it. There is nothing special or wise about making another paygrade. As i have stated before in my 11 nearly 12 in i have met 4 Chiefs worth anything. In general the rest are E-7's not worth the time considering. Not a very good showing. My experience has been that the community is more self invested and spends more time looking out for its perks than making life better or easier for those below. Either that or they are locked in the Goat Locket playing X-box.
Be proud of what you accomplished, sure. But the bully tactics and initiation or whatever you call the hazing ritual now need to go away. It has no place in a modern military service. I believe the Navy would be stronger and better by ridding ourselves of all the history and tradition nonsense that keeps us from having a better quality of life.

Shipmate rendering honors to the flag is not bullsh*t flag, I figured most people would have more respect for the people that gave the ultimate sacrifice for the flag and the freedoms it represents.

[Battleshort]

Shipmate rendering honors to the flag is not bullsh*t flag, I figured most people would have more respect for the people that gave the ultimate sacrifice for the flag and the freedoms it represents.

I believe he was refering to hoisting "BravoSierra".

[pawn65]

Ah very true i forgot about that

[euzkadiCA]

Ah very true i forgot about that

almost got ugly there...lol (deep breaths) :tongue:

[LibertyHound]

This entire entire thread is aout that very same attitude. The posturing and vainglorious pride that serves the E-7 and above community so ill. You just made another rank. Thats it. There is nothing special or wise about making another paygrade. As i have stated before in my 11 nearly 12 in i have met 4 Chiefs worth anything.
When you're just another cog in just another organization - then, as you say, there certainly isn't anything special about 'making another paygrade.'

That speaks volumes more about you than it does the Navy or the Chiefs' Mess.

You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shidt...

[forcedj]

There is nothing special or wise about making another paygrade.


Then why do you yourself contine trying to advance?

Dan

[AF Chief]

Wow...I thought only the AF Chiefs got bashed and were blamed for everything wrong with the service. :lol: I see it happens in other service forums as well.

[jeffersj]

Wow...I thought only the AF Chiefs got bashed and were blamed for everything wrong with the service. :lol: I see it happens in other service forums as well.

Yeah, kinda goes with the territory.

[smarg]

Wow...I thought only the AF Chiefs got bashed and were blamed for everything wrong with the service. :lol: I see it happens in other service forums as well.

Only the enlisted AF Chiefs who consider themselves enlisted 'generals'. You know the type, I'm sure.:cool:

[AF Chief]

Yea, cause we know there is absolutely nothing wrong with today's Young Airmen and NCOs. :lol:

[euzkadiCA]

Then why do you yourself contine trying to advance?

Dan

Same as most everyone else...make more money. My rank is not an extenuation af my self-importance...

[euzkadiCA]

When you're just another cog in just another organization - then, as you say, there certainly isn't anything special about 'making another paygrade.'

That speaks volumes more about you than it does the Navy or the Chiefs' Mess.

You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shidt...

We are all cogs in this organization. I am an outstanding sailor, more motivated than anyone at my command, great evals, Iraq and Afghanistan veteran, my PT scores are always in the middle outstanding category, run a division. So if you are insinuating i am a sh*tbird, guess again. I suceed despite my goat locker, not because of it. I am proud of my service as we all should be. Just think most of the E-7 and above need a serious lesson in humility and go back to looking out for their sailors, something seriously lacking in my 11 nearly 12 years experience. Leadership is not about your rank to an extent, its about example. Again in my experience, the E-7 and above community tend to be hypocrites in that regard, sorry. Too much resting on the 'ol laurels and being able to hide away in a private club, emerging every once in awhile with big talk of "what goes on behind closed doors".

[LibertyHound]

I am an outstanding sailor, more motivated than anyone at my command,

Then perhaps you should motivate the rest you command..... :rolleyes:

[Michaep]

Guys guys guys....

Just remember....

The USN has it backwards...

Its supposed to go Master, Senior, THEN Chief......like the AF :)

[Battleshort]

Guys guys guys....

Just remember....

The USN has it backwards...

Its supposed to go Master, Senior, THEN Chief......like the AF :)

Epic fail.:rolleyes:

The AF guy who copied the Navy got it backwards.

Remember, we had Chiefs while you guys were still rooting for WestPoint.:D

[smarg]

We are all cogs in this organization. I am an outstanding sailor, more motivated than anyone at my command, great evals, Iraq and Afghanistan veteran, my PT scores are always in the middle outstanding category, run a division. So if you are insinuating i am a sh*tbird, guess again. I suceed despite my goat locker, not because of it. I am proud of my service as we all should be. Just think most of the E-7 and above need a serious lesson in humility and go back to looking out for their sailors, something seriously lacking in my 11 nearly 12 years experience. Leadership is not about your rank to an extent, its about example. Again in my experience, the E-7 and above community tend to be hypocrites in that regard, sorry. Too much resting on the 'ol laurels and being able to hide away in a private club, emerging every once in awhile with big talk of "what goes on behind closed doors".


YAY!! *CLAP* *CLAP* *CLAP* CAN I GET A WITNESS!!! AMEN, BROTHER, AMEN!!!!!! :D

Now HOW COME you anti-smarg's don't gang up on this guy like you do me??

[smarg]

Epic fail.:rolleyes:

The AF guy who copied the Navy got it backwards.

Remember, we had Chiefs while you guys were still rooting for WestPoint.:D

Yeah, and while you guys were having your turns in the barrel we weren't even glints in our daddy's eyes...:tongue:

[forcedj]

YAY!! *CLAP* *CLAP* *CLAP* CAN I GET A WITNESS!!! AMEN, BROTHER, AMEN!!!!!! :D

Now HOW COME you anti-smarg's don't gang up on this guy like you do me??

He's Navy. We take care of our own. (-;

Dan

[SailorDave]

YAY!! *CLAP* *CLAP* *CLAP* CAN I GET A WITNESS!!! AMEN, BROTHER, AMEN!!!!!! :D

Now HOW COME you anti-smarg's don't gang up on this guy like you do me??

Because at least his complaints come from first hand experience with the subject at hand.

[euzkadiCA]

BTW, dont mean to come off completely negative. Love my branch, love my service. All these things i say are out of love, and the belief that we can change for the better and are stronger than than to imitate the old British Navy. I have had several Chiefs that i literally would follow to the ends of the earth and then some for. All i am saying is that there needs to be some serious housecleaning in the goat locker, probably even drawing some blood so to speak. The current reviews are step in the right direction, but IMO to little too late. The good Chiefs i have had would never allow me to perform at the level some or most of the E-7 community (again in my experience only) currently displays. I disgusts me to see the inordinate amount of detrimental pride placed in a seperate uniform...hence abolish it. The Marines Corps has it right with their senior leadership. Dont believe me? Think of the bloodcurdling cries that would arise if you took 5 to 10 hard d*cked Gunny's and gave them the time to beef up on Navy uniform regs and turned them loose on every Navy installation with (within reason) free reign to fix any descrepancies noted. If E-7s start performing in a manner somewhat similar (what they are paid to do, no?) then i will start calling and you will have earned being called Chief.

[Yggdrasil]

Think of the bloodcurdling cries that would arise if you took 5 to 10 hard d*cked Gunny's and gave them the time to beef up on Navy uniform regs and turned them loose on every Navy installation with (within reason) free reign to fix any descrepancies noted. If E-7s start performing in a manner somewhat similar (what they are paid to do, no?) then i will start calling and you will have earned being called Chief.

Then what would happen? Probably the same thing. I've seen a Master Sergeant of Marines turn a blind eye to a Sailor in shitty summer whites once - and you didn't have to know Navy uniform regs to know that this Sailor's uniform was UNSAT.

Don't assume that just because Marines have the tougher boot camp, that they're all hard-asses. Once they complete boot camp, they're in the military just like you and me.

[forcedj]

BTW, dont mean to come off completely negative. Love my branch, love my service. All these things i say are out of love, and the belief that we can change for the better and are stronger than than to imitate the old British Navy. I have had several Chiefs that i literally would follow to the ends of the earth and then some for.

See euz...ya went and spoiled a sure thing. You had smarg proudly riding shotgun on your bandwagon. But then you went and got all mushy and now he'll probably leave you like a jilted bride.

But before you go spouting off about how "squared away" Marines keep their uniforms...how much time have you spent around Marines? Believe me...there are Marines out there that aren't up the the caliber that you refer to. Personal grooming, uniforms, military bearing, etc. I've seen it first-hand. They too have their problems. And I wouldn't be overly surprised if the percentage of problems are close to that of the Navy's uniform and grooming standards. Remember...the USMC is a much smaller service. So those slobs would be fewer and far between.

Dan

[euzkadiCA]

Don't assume that just because Marines have the tougher boot camp, that they're all hard-asses. Once they complete boot camp, they're in the military just like you and me.

Spent quite a bit of time with Marines, deployed with them to Iraq, fyi. Dont assume i am fresh out the gate here boss. They police their own a lot better than we do. Every one of my points are valid criticisms of the Navy's enlisted leadership. E-7 and above as a community needs to get hot on fixing their own. Take a big bite of humble pie and look objectively at yourselves. Just because you and Chief So-and-So are great friends and hes a good guy to drink beers with doesn't make him a good leader or supervisor. That is the problem in this area. Too much protect the Locker and look out for our own. Then you have to ask, why is he still in? That is his JOB, the reason he gets paid, to be a leader or at least a supervisor. If i have one of my sailors performing subpar, i will do everything i am allowed to do to get them to meet expectations. If all those fail i have to look out for the Navy and not recommmend them for advancement or re-enlistment. Cut our losses, right? Thanks for playing, go home. That doesn't happen once you reach E-7 and above it seems. I guarantee somebody is going to come out and say i saw once...blah blah blah. Good for you, but it needs to happen across the board, because on my end i am saddled with useless bosses and a division to run.

[jeffersj]

Spent quite a bit of time with Marines, deployed with them to Iraq, fyi. Dont assume i am fresh out the gate here boss. They police their own a lot better than we do. Every one of my points are valid criticisms of the Navy's enlisted leadership. E-7 and above as a community needs to get hot on fixing their own. Take a big bite of humble pie and look objectively at yourselves. Just because you and Chief So-and-So are great friends and hes a good guy to drink beers with doesn't make him a good leader or supervisor. That is the problem in this area. Too much protect the Locker and look out for our own. Then you have to ask, why is he still in? That is his JOB, the reason he gets paid, to be a leader or at least a supervisor. If i have one of my sailors performing subpar, i will do everything i am allowed to do to get them to meet expectations. If all those fail i have to look out for the Navy and not recommmend them for advancement or re-enlistment. Cut our losses, right? Thanks for playing, go home. That doesn't happen once you reach E-7 and above it seems. I guarantee somebody is going to come out and say i saw once...blah blah blah. Good for you, but it needs to happen across the board, because on my end i am saddled with useless bosses and a division to run.

Not going to say I saw once ... No need for that.

Yes, there is a lot of deadwood up and down the line. That's why HYT was started a little over 20 years ago - to get rid of the folks that got to a point where they were going nowhere and holding back others that wanted to move up.

The continuation board is an extension of that as there is no point to keeping someone around that is eligible to retire who is simply marking time until they face mandatory retirement. The only issue I see is whether or not the fitness reports will give the board the information they need to make an intelligent determination as to whether or not to retain that particular Sailor.

[euzkadiCA]

Not going to say I saw once ... No need for that.

The only issue I see is whether or not the fitness reports will give the board the information they need to make an intelligent determination as to whether or not to retain that particular Sailor.

Thank you for sparing me...there is always someone with "the lone exception i saw once"

My point exactly. The board will probably not see it (generally speaking) in the E-7 and above because "hes got a family" or "devoted so much time" Wah Wah Wah. The issue is the lack of critical thinking in getting rid of the deadwood. I will withhold my judgement until i see results. But i think this is dog and pony show with lots of lips moving and no action, hopefully i am wrong. I have seen and helped the processes in action on plenty of E-6 and below to trim the fat, i know they work. But the "good 'ol boy club" keeps on covering for plenty of people who dont deserve to run a single person kayak, let alone collect a retirement after skating by once they put on khaki.
Lead or move and make way for someone competent who relishes the challenge. A change in paygrade and uniform is not a good excuse to not put out every day and set the example.

[jeffersj]

Thank you for sparing me...there is always someone with "the lone exception i saw once"

...

Lead or move and make way for someone competent who relishes the challenge. A change in paygrade and uniform is not a good excuse to not put out every day and set the example.

My philosophy as well.

You are assigned to do a job, you do it. If you're a First Class, Chief, whatever, you can't motivate your folks to excel and do good things if you rest on your laurels because you hit that spot where you want to be at.

[Bael]

I tell ya, if there was ever a rotten "caste" system dreamed up by egomaniacal goofs, this is it. The Navy Chiefs have got all the Services beat in this aspect. Yeah yeah, I know, the Navy has hundreds of years of tradition unencumbered by progress, but let's get real. You AIN'T officers, no matter how hard you wanna dress like them and have your separate messes and other assorted "perks". So, get off your high khaki horses and join the rest of the enlisted Sailors with pride.

I'm just sayin'. :eek:

Please ignore smarg, he is the AF board's resident anti-enlisted troll and a complete tool.

[smarg]

Please ignore smarg, he is the AF board's resident anti-enlisted troll and a complete tool.

And you, my friend, are woefully bereft of the ravages of intelligence. :rolleyes:

[jeffersj]

Please ignore smarg, he is the AF board's resident anti-enlisted troll and a complete tool.

Thank you.

It is interesting to read the comments of someone afflicted with a potentially terminal case of Cranial-Rectal Syndrome, such as smarg. The important thing is to not necessarily take them personally or seriously.

However, there are moments when their condition is in remission, and during those period of lucidity they make some comments that are worthy of consideration and an intelligent, measured response.

[SailorDave]

I think he's Michaep's gimmick. Or vice versa.

[Variable Wind]

I think he's Michaep's gimmick. Or vice versa.

Nah, Smarg has been here longer, and normally you can see the sarcasm behind his incendiary posts, whether he agrees with what he is saying or not.

Micheap is just...well...hes no smarg.

[SailorDave]

But now we've given him a mentor.

[Variable Wind]

But now we've given him a mentor.

No, guys like Micheap...they come and go or get banned. He reminds me more of Drake Vampiel. Look at it this way.

Smarg does it for entertainment.
Micheap does it because of a complex.

[Bael]

And you, my friend, are woefully bereft of the ravages of intelligence. :rolleyes:

Sup, tool.

[Bael]

No, guys like Micheap...they come and go or get banned. He reminds me more of Drake Vampiel. Look at it this way.

Smarg does it for entertainment.
Micheap does it because of a complex.

Eh, a troll is a troll. Or a tool, in smarg's case.

[Master Seaman of the Navy]

Okay, the way I look at it, well, at least my comparision. ...

Chiefs are like NFL coaches, PO1's are the team leaders, like QB's, Linebackers on D. ...and a lot of times PO1 go on to be the coaches (78.3 % of the NFL coaches are former players themselves).

PO2's are like very good players, who the rookies look up to, etc. ..kind of like having Randy Moss on your team, or another good player you see scoring the winning touchdown, etc. ...E4 and below, are like the O line and D line, they do all the work in the trenches. ...

Officers are like the Bill Parcels, managers, owners, etc. ....

What is it I am trying to say, every team is different. ....you have good ones, and bad ones. But we're all on a team, and all have an important part/role. When a ship goes to sea on deployment, that is like the Super Bowl, you play to win the game (Herm Edwards). If you stuggle with your game, then the coaches/chiefs, help you by praticing harding. ...pushing you to suceed. If you do not want to be a team player, then you're out, kick off. .... .....

I read all this whinning, complaining, resentment, etc. ...WTF? If you play your hardest game, go out there every practive and put in 110%, and on game day, you trust in your coaches, put on your game face, and help the team everyone WINS.

[CVal]

Very nice explanation, Master Seaman.

[forcedj]

MSNON,
I like your analogy, but this is may not be the best example you could have come up with…



... who the rookies look up to, etc. ..kind of like having Randy Moss on your team...


Dan

[Master Seaman of the Navy]

MSNON,
I like your analogy, but this is may not be the best example you could have come up with…




Dan

What can I say, grew up 15 min from Gillette -- gotta love the Pats.

[Variable Wind]

What can I say, grew up 15 min from Gillette -- gotta love the Pats.

Pats...yeah they are okay. Brady, Billichek and Moss: Turds.

[forcedj]

What can I say, grew up 15 min from Gillette -- gotta love the Pats.

Oh, me too. I live just down the road in RI. Randy Moss: Great football player. Not the best role model.

Dan

[smarg]

And what about those worthless Chiefs who shift over to the LDO ranks?? My God, those "Well, when I was a chief, we did it this way" stories get old REAL quick.

Just sayin'. :)