Evals and ranking

[RandomFT2]

Don't know if anyone else has ever noticed or perhaps it's just my command. But it seems like the amount of work you do really isn't rewarded unless you constantly draw attention to it. In other words you really have to kiss up a lot to get anywhere. The mentality that seems to get the best results is, "It's not what you know, it's who you know". Personally I think this is the wrong attitude. If everyone is simply sucking up to the person above them where does that leave people that actually do work?

[YomanDenver]

I noticed this on my first ship. We were in dry dock and myself and one other SN took it upon ourselves to refurbish a RAS locker. We took everything out, sanded the entire space, painted...the whole nine yards. Towards the end of the DSRA, they started presenting awards...who got the NAM out of our group of Undesignated SN...the guy issuing out tools that sat in a CONEX box all day long. He's my buddy and you best believe I gave him crap about it.

It's becoming more noticeable, if you ask me. Another story, I had a 3rd class that worked for me at my last command, she was previously undesignated and was really trying her hardest to gain the knowledge she needed. She had taken the exam for 2nd a couple times, but always narrowly missing it. When it came time to CAP someone, she didn't get it...the SN that didn't know a thing about military bearing or responsibility gets it. Of course, that SN worked for the CO and XO.

It'll continue to happen, but the best thing to do is kiss ass and work your hardest to make sure you get recognition.

[RandomFT2]

Well sucking up is something I just won't sink to, I'd rather keep my self-respect. I've never had a problem advancing anyway, I got 99th percentile on my last exam so I can prove I do know atleast a little something about my job. But I see junior guys getting frustrated cause they could use points from things like junior sailor or blue jacket but they just won't get it cause like me they don't suck up. The main problem with rankings I feel, is that they should be done by division not ship wide. Really how can you compare cooks and machinist mates, or Electronics Technicians and MA's? It's not a fair comparison in the least and the process really should be reviewed.

[YomanDenver]

The main problem with rankings I feel, is that they should be done by division not ship wide. Really how can you compare cooks and machinist mates, or Electronics Technicians and MA's? It's not a fair comparison in the least and the process really should be reviewed.

Luckily, at my last command...the rankings were done by Office, rather than command. I agree, you shouldn't be ranked against someone that does some totally different job than you. This guy could be your #1 worker, but at the same time...he could also be your ONLY worker.

[Yggdrasil]

FT2,

One thing that I envy about submariners is that you guys don't have females onboard. Not that working with females in and of itself bothers me, but from what I've seen, if you're a highly attractive female, you can be a total screw up, but as long as the reporting senior finds you attractive, you're getting an EP. And if there are anymore EP slots left after the the highly attractive women have been ranked, there may be some left over for average-looking women and metro-sexual men.

[RandomFT2]

Ha don't be too envious, we still have our fair share of metro-sexual guys.

[SeaChicken]

Don’t be afraid to tell your supervisor what a good job you’re doing. If you accomplished something meaningful that has an impact on your whole division it’s not really kissing a$$ is it? Besides, it’s an opportunity for your LPO to show his/her LCPO what a great leader they are.

Use the evaluation and counseling process to your advantage. Make up your own goals that you want to be evaluated against next year and get your rater and senior rater into the loop. When counseling time comes around you have an opportunity to talk about your accomplishments with them but it doesn’t seem vain because it’s just part of the process. When its eval time and you are talking about your accomplishments again, it is the third time your rate rand senior rater have heard what a great job you have been doing and how much you have accomplished. That is going to stay with them when they have to fight for you to get the EP. If you take a passive attitude towards the process you are letting the referees decide the outcome of the game.

If the CO wants, he/she can delegate reporting senior duties down to department heads for example. It won’t create more EPs to be had, but it will make it easier to realistically rank people against their peers. I don’t know why more don’t do that.

[PAMICH]

Don’t be afraid to tell your supervisor what a good job you’re doing. If you accomplished something meaningful that has an impact on your whole division it’s not really kissing a$$ is it? Besides, it’s an opportunity for your LPO to show his/her LCPO what a great leader they are.

Use the evaluation and counseling process to your advantage. Make up your own goals that you want to be evaluated against next year and get your rater and senior rater into the loop. When counseling time comes around you have an opportunity to talk about your accomplishments with them but it doesn’t seem vain because it’s just part of the process. When its eval time and you are talking about your accomplishments again, it is the third time your rate rand senior rater have heard what a great job you have been doing and how much you have accomplished. That is going to stay with them when they have to fight for you to get the EP. If you take a passive attitude towards the process you are letting the referees decide the outcome of the game.

If the CO wants, he/she can delegate reporting senior duties down to department heads for example. It won’t create more EPs to be had, but it will make it easier to realistically rank people against their peers. I don’t know why more don’t do that.

I concur, well written. You need to blow your own whistle in the Navy.

[Yggdrasil]

If the CO wants, he/she can delegate reporting senior duties down to department heads for example. It won’t create more EPs to be had, but it will make it easier to realistically rank people against their peers. I don’t know why more don’t do that.

Only the reason that most CO's won't do this is because CPO boards don't look favorably upon departmental rankings. Until that part changes - or departmental rankings become mandated - command rankings will be the norm.

[RandomFT2]

Well it's a bit different with small commands of less than 200 people. We don't get that many EP's to begin with and maybe it's just my Chain of Command, but they don't actually rank people that well. Really it's popularity contest.

[SeaChicken]

Only the reason that most CO's won't do this is because CPO boards don't look favorably upon departmental rankings. Until that part changes - or departmental rankings become mandated - command rankings will be the norm.
At least for the E5 and below then. I can't imagine how the lowly E3 or E4 feels when they get an EVAL that doesn't look anything like what they remember the past year to have been and signed by someone they likely don't think has any idea who they are. It wouldn't give me the warm and fuzzies about the system either.

[SeaChicken]

Well it's a bit different with small commands of less than 200 people. We don't get that many EP's to begin with and maybe it's just my Chain of Command, but they don't actually rank people that well. Really it's popularity contest.
Maybe it's because they are hard working, lead by example, take care of their sailors and always look to better their command that they became popular. Hey, it could happen! Of course, maybe I believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny too.

The rankings may just not make sense to you and I can tell you that it is definitely as much art as science. That being said, your leadership owes it to you to explain why you were ranked how you were ranked and what you can do to earn the EP next time.

[Yggdrasil]

If the rankings are command-wide, the way it should work is this:

Rank at the department level. After that, the department head finalizes everyone's trait averages. After that, you take everyone's eval/fitrep at the command and put them in order of trait average as given by the department head. The only "ranking" you need after that is sorting the order of people with the same trait average.

[RandomFT2]

Yea right now it goes like, E-6's give their inputs to the chiefs on the E-5 and below, and then the chief's make the final call. But the majority of the E-6's are nukes, and the greater majority of the E-6's don't get to vote if they don't want to pay dues to be in the first class association. And then again it's mostly up to the chief's anyway, which is why it's a popularity contest.

[RandomFT2]

Really i mean the ultimate example of this, is my frocking eval to E-5, was against other guys that just made E-5, mostly nukes. At the time I had 3 ship's collateral duties all normally done by an E-6 and I actually did them well and improved each. Also qualified senior in-rate watch station at E-2 when I first reported. But somehow I didn't get the highest ranking even though none of the others had a collateral duty or had their senior in-rate watch. I even had a lot of face time with DH, CO, and XO providing daily tactical briefs, which is really an officer job. Really can't tell me something isn't messed up there.

[Yggdrasil]

Also qualified senior in-rate watch station at E-2 when I first reported.

That's the problem. Sometimes, you just have to save some achievements for later. You don't want to do too much stuff for the eval coming up, and then have nothing left to do for the eval after that.

[PAMICH]

Sustained Superior Performance. That's the key.

[RandomFT2]

I guess the real issue then is the system promotes laziness. Why should anyone work hard to get ahead if they're eventually going to reach a wall they just can't get around. In my opinion if someone gets a lot done and gets everything done early and levels off at a higher standard they should be recognized for that. Instead of just saying hey this guy hasn't done anything.

[PAMICH]

FT2, Correct ! Our system is flawed. As a chief, I must know my Sailors and know what they are doing and what they are capable of doing. An old adage " It's not what you do it's how you do it" should be conveyed tothe Officers, and it can be nerve racking when the promotion slots get all jacked up. Keep your blotter filled and the system will pop for you eventually. I don't forsee any change in our current system but it needs to be ostracized and repaired.

[RandomFT2]

Someone should put that in the navy wide suggestion box, then again we'd need a suggestion box to even suggest a box to begin with.

[SailorAide]

FT2, without seeing your eval as compared to the ones of those ranked above you, all comments on your situation here are really just based on what you perceive as truth. You come across pretty disgruntled (although not in a rude and angry way) and perhaps an injustice has been done to you. If your evaluation is not including things that you've accomplished then you have a resolution process available to you, by making a statement. You can also always talk to your Chain of Command during your debrief and ask for an explanation.

I'll tell you this, when you get to the CPO level your eyes will open widely to a lot of things, and ranking boards is one of them. It is NOT generally a poplarity contest by any means. In fact, all that I've participated in or been privy too have been thoroughly argued and evaluated. When it comes down to it, if the Mess is using the usual ranking model, your collateral duties might max you out in that category, but if you are not a well-rounded Sailor with some community service and outside education obtained during that period you could fall below someone who you think you might be a better worker than.

I guess what I'm getting at is this: your job performance is only one slice of being a Sailor. The Navy wants you to have high PRT scores, get an education, volunteer in the community and better yourself in all facets of your career and life. Those are the Sailors who get selected for Chief Petty Officer and more and more that is how I've seen ranking boards work, as well. Take a good look at your overall performance and that might give you some insight.

* Let me add one last thing, it is imperative that you really listen during a mid-term counseling session. This is the supervisor's opportunity to tell a Sailor what they need to continue doing and what they need to improve on. If you are not getting this type of thorough mid-term counseling, respectfully demand it. You deserve it and that will give you the best chance to succeed (and ultimately break-out) from your peers.

[RandomFT2]

The counseling is usually, "ok here is your eval, sign it". I've volunteered to read to kids at local schools and done food drives and that kind of stuff. The PRT I did was about 80 pushups and situps and the run in about 10:30 which is pretty good for a 22 year old. And again 4 ships collateral duties, that's not counting divisional ones. And somehow still got beat by all the nukes on the ranking. I am disgruntled, in every other job I've ever had I managed to push ahead and get somewhere pretty rapidly, but the navy has just been waiting, favoritism, and politics.

[RandomFT2]

And as far as going up the chain of command, I won't touch that. From my experience if you do that, you pretty much just get burned no matter how right you are.

[Yggdrasil]

And as far as going up the chain of command, I won't touch that. From my experience if you do that, you pretty much just get burned no matter how right you are.

Ah yes, the good ol' "Chose your battles" saying. No arguments here.

[SailorAide]

And as far as going up the chain of command, I won't touch that. From my experience if you do that, you pretty much just get burned no matter how right you are.

FT2, what kind of resolution are you looking for? You claim the ranking has been done unfairly but you are not willing to address it out of fear of retribution. I understand the concern, but ultimately, unless someone steps up and speaks out for what they feel is right, things won't ever change in that given situation. With regards to yours, you are exhibiting the classic problem of complaining without offering a solution. I highly recommend that if you're this upset about it ... DO SOMETHING.

You're right. You may get nowhere. It may make your life even harder. Or perhaps you could get an explanation that makes sense. You just don't know. You can only assume until you try.

[Yggdrasil]

I think that the only thing that can be done is to ride it out at this command, and hope that the next one is better. This system we have now makes every eval/fitrep set in stone, since changing one person's report means that you have to change everyone else's and re-work the numbers - so when you get an eval that you don't like, there's literally nothing that can be done about it. You can "submit a statement," but from what I hear, it makes you look like a whiner to the CPO boards - so there goes that.

[Voyager57]

If you submit a statement to the CPO selbd that carries validity via factual, proven content...that bad eval will be given the benefit of the doubt and discarded from consideration. Don't forget your chain of command has opportunity to rebutt your statement but facts usually can stand on their own merit. Of course as a procedure of the bd giving benefit of the doubt, they will also look very closely at your other evals before and after and particularly from different reporting seniors to ensure you are the hard charger your statement represents you to be. A statement without validity is whining.

[RandomFT2]

FT2, what kind of resolution are you looking for? You claim the ranking has been done unfairly but you are not willing to address it out of fear of retribution. I understand the concern, but ultimately, unless someone steps up and speaks out for what they feel is right, things won't ever change in that given situation. With regards to yours, you are exhibiting the classic problem of complaining without offering a solution. I highly recommend that if you're this upset about it ... DO SOMETHING.

You're right. You may get nowhere. It may make your life even harder. Or perhaps you could get an explanation that makes sense. You just don't know. You can only assume until you try.

I have offered a solution, basically evaluate people separately not based on everyone else. That would solve the problems with favoritism, brown nosing, etc.. But right now the only motivation I have to continue to do my job, is to just avoid getting yelled at. I can't do more than I am already, there isn't anything I can qualify and there aren't any more collateral duties I can take on to improve my ranking. The chances of someone like myself getting an EP to take the 1st class exam is next to nothing, and the reason I get is because I haven't done anything other than maintain an extremely high standard. Well that's simply BS.

[Yggdrasil]

I have offered a solution, basically evaluate people separately not based on everyone else. That would solve the problems with favoritism, brown nosing, etc..

People have been making that suggestion before I came into the Navy in '99.

The only problem is that under the old eval system before the one we had now, everyone was getting 4.0 evals. And you couldn't evaluate your people the right way, because if you did, they'd be worse off than the dirtbags who were getting 4.0 evals at other commands.

In this way, I do agree with ranking, but not the way it's currently done. I do believe in mandating departmental ratings (at most commands, for example, SH1 will always lose out to FC1 or DC1), and varying the EP and MP quotas by commands. For example, commands like RTC, Blue Angels, the Constitution, etc should have more EP and MP quotas than other commands. Commands that have recieved the Battle "E", MUC, or NUC should have the quotas raised for the following year, since these awards imply that these commands have higher performing Sailors than others. Those are just a few examples.