Backtalk: PT problems

[CommunityEditor]

I have been involved in more than one successful fitness program during my career, and in light of the recent Air Force fitness audit, I’m wondering: Where’s the disconnect with the rest of the Air Force leadership? I believe the problem is not the standard; it’s the way we’re enforcing it. So how do we fix it?

1. The physical training leader concept is a crutch. Put the responsibility of leading PT back on the shoulders of our leaders — not on the shoulders of junior personnel. This standard should be actively enforced from the top down.

2. We’ve all heard “lead from the front,” but not enough airmen are. Commanders and senior enlisted leaders have to be out there with us, leading our group runs and calling cadence during calisthenics sessions.

From where I’m sitting, it appears to be Air Force leaders who are having the most difficulty maintaining not only their individual fitness level but their credibility with our hard-charging airmen. We have the most motivated generation of airmen in a long time and they are serious about their commitment to fitness. If I expect them to follow me, I have to be there with them when it counts — including during PT. That credibility carries over through the rest of the day long after the sweat has dried.

3. Quarterly assessments: This will solve many of the problems found in the recent fitness audit. As a maintenance trainer, I would never go a whole year before I followed up on my trainees’ job performance. We inspect and measure their performances frequently, and for those who show a habit of less-than-acceptable performance, we follow up more often. Why is the PT standard enforced differently?

4. Do it together: Structure PT routines around group sessions as well as group goals. In basic training, I went from zero fitness to finishing several-mile “motivational runs” on the weekends with my basic military training instructor. Why? Because he was out there with us, and I had peer pressure to push me beyond the point I could push myself. In that environment everyone can see the level of effort put forth. There’s nowhere to hide in a group.

5. Keep it simple: Gains can be measured, goals will be met, stress will decrease and morale will increase.

In my current unit, we have a consistent routine with our PTL-led sessions. We know what the goal is for each session before we start so there’s no stress related to adjusting to change from day to day and airmen can track their progress.

Go with the basics for exercises. Focus on a select few exercises to work the same muscle groups as many times as possible. If you throw in too many exercises or variety, no single muscle group gets the hard conditioning it needs.

If airmen need more, it’s either up to them to spend personal time to “get over the hump,” or direct supervisors should be held accountable for intervening.

6. Understand psychology to reap the nonfitness benefits of a successful unit PT program.

We’re taught basic stages of team/group dynamics in professional military education, but no one is teaching the average noncommissioned officer what to do to foster those dynamics during PT.

Again, keep it simple. Engineer some predictability to eliminate stress. Make group sessions difficult but not impossible. Understand the individual abilities of the members of your group, and set achievable goals. Don’t over-stress the group — but stress them enough to keep them motivated. At the same time, don’t let them get bored: Offer a bit of variety, but know the difference between variety that promotes cohesion, and variety that defeats it.

It is comforting to know this program is being examined seriously, and I do believe the mechanics of the fitness policy can be tweaked a bit. But I’m confident that the PT standard does a great job of preparing us for stresses down range. It’s been a long time since I’ve had a sister service member ask me: “Do you guys really ride a bike for your fitness test?”

However, the way we are enforcing this standard, what we are holding our leaders accountable to — the way we are managing the fitness program — this is where the real disconnect lies.


Article: http://www.airforcetimes.com/community/opinion/airforce_backtalk_pt_022309/

[smarg]

NEGATIVE. Leave it alone, damn it! The standards are set. They are good. Change everytime some goof gets a whim for some bullets is NOT good.

Just like the uniform...EVERY freakin' couple of years or so there's a scramble to catch up with stupid unneeded changes....STOP THE MADNESS!!!!!

[BigBaze]

NEGATIVE. Leave it alone, damn it! The standards are set. They are good. Change everytime some goof gets a whim for some bullets is NOT good.

Just like the uniform...EVERY freakin' couple of years or so there's a scramble to catch up with stupid unneeded changes....STOP THE MADNESS!!!!!


I am afraid the madness will get worse before it will get better...I wouldn't be surprised if all people over 32.5" waist get sent to a special fat camp:)

[BRUWIN]

I am afraid the madness will get worse before it will get better...I wouldn't be surprised if all people over 32.5" waist get sent to a special fat camp:)


Reminds me of John Candy arriving to Army Basic training in the movie "Stripes":

"You guys may not realize this but I'm a little overweight and I figure they got what....a 12 week training program here? Which is perfect for me"

[WILDJOKER5]

I hate this argument, let the leaders lead the PT session. That is BS, they send a few people to the PTL class for a reason, EMPOWERMENT. Allow the PTLs to run the PT program. I have been at 2 locations now where even though the PTL has a plan for the day, the "unqualified" flight chief says, nah we are going to run today. That is all some people want to do, but that isnt the best way to loose weight, or get continous improvment.

Running daily or having a routine doesnt motivate nor continue the improvement process. Do the different running excersise one month, then change it over to a more circuit training mixed with "fun" activities. Games and such will get peoples heart rates up if they participate.

[CMSBROWN]

I lead my squadron PT.

Enough said.

[sweatyAZ]

Weeeee another PT is a huge problem in the AF fight. Eliminate waist measurement.....problem solved. This article seems to only make sense if your in a one flight outfit. I dont know about your leadership but I don't think my leadership would want to go to six different PT sessions a day. Personaly all forms of PT is boreing to me if it doesnt have a scoreboard involved, and no I'm not talking about a PTL's how many of these can you do lists. "There’s nowhere to hide in a group." Seriously?? The OP is in the military right?? With all the years of experience our senior leadership has I would think by now they can prioritize what the real problems are. If they want people to start paying attention to PT then make the slogan for the program "Oh my god Becky, look at her butt, it is so big. She looks like she could be one of those rap guys girlfriends.......either that or in the Air Force."

[smarg]

Weeeee another PT is a huge problem in the AF fight. Eliminate waist measurement.....problem solved.

Are you a beer gut?

[sweatyAZ]

nope, 29 year old 32 incher myself, but i'll work on it this weekend.

[BRAVO10000]

:: sigh :: Another singular perspective from a guy that knows more than his bosses. I'm going to start to referring to these guys as "Army Man Crushes"...

What kills me is hearing the same two canned statements reflecting too much concern about (1) what the other branches think, and (2) whether someone else can drag someone else to safety. Gimme a break.

1- I can't imagine caring less than I already do about what other branches think. Seriously. I'm pretty proud to be a part of the greatest Air Force ever conceived, anywhere on the planet.

2- Yes, being in shape is a good thing, but not many of us will ever be in that position so stop using it as a primary justification (this is especially ironic when coming from a 95 pound 5-foot female that isn't dragging anything anywhere). Maybe I am too cynical, but I don't believe for a half-second that the PT program was conceived by a guy that thought "I need to get the AF ready for hand-to-hand combat and dragging each other around". Are we compensating for something as an organization?

I am NOT AGAINST PT. I am against it taking priority over our capability to do our JOBS. I don't want to hear about how PT drives down medical costs...first, sports-related injuries have more than doubled. Second, the fast food on Any-Air-Force Base outnumbers healthy options 10 to 1. The commissary and Exchange still sell cigarettes, and alcohol is available to the GI tax free. (Yeah, that promotes a healthy lifestyle). Third, what about stress levels that go with a high ops tempo and low manpower?

And your PTLs...maybe they are different at Hill, but a Level 1 PTL course teaches them how to administer the PT test. That's IT - nothing else. They aren't personal trainers and REALLY need to get over themselves. They are empowered - to exercise with their own subordinates...as a senior leader, so am I. It is my prerogative or my CCs to lead any formation, regardless of purpose. My guys can PT with me every single day of the week, so long as they are willing to go at 0500 when I go (my guys in the Not Good Enough club do this). But then - horrors - they might have to pull a full duty day at work. I'd hate to interfere with their beauty sleep in the name of the mission...maybe the young guys need to PT with the senior leaders, not the other way around.

PT levels are a standard (among a LOT of others). Set the bar, and make your guys meet it. We never did supervised boot shining, remedial hair trimming, colllege classes in the workcenter...why coddle with this standard? It costs me between 240 and 400 man-hours per week of duty time to support unit PT. Based on the 10 series AFIs, that's approx $15K. Let them do it on their own time and use the progressive discipline model to enforce it like everything else.

[BRUWIN]

::
PT levels are a standard (among a LOT of others). Set the bar, and make your guys meet it. We never did supervised boot shining, remedial hair trimming, colllege classes in the workcenter...why coddle with this standard? It costs me between 240 and 400 man-hours per week of duty time to support unit PT. Based on the 10 series AFIs, that's approx $15K. Let them do it on their own time and use the progressive discipline model to enforce it like everything else.

Good points. Yep...make it just llike the old days. Sure, we didn't do mandatory PT. But we had fat people on the "fat boy" program.

[imnohero]

PT levels are a standard

True, so what do you do when the standard is flawed and everyone knows it?

Really, let's be honest.

30% of the standard (waist measurement) is based on disputed science, doesn't change for height or bone structure and is based on a single data point (waist > 40" = higher health risk). Ask any statistician, probability expert, scientist, you can not extrapolate from a single data point.

50% of the standard is based on run time, to max the score you need to be able to run a 6 minute mile. Ask anyone who runs, that is fast. Ask people who know about running, it's beyond the reach of the average person.

20% of the standard is strength assessment, but it's a sliding scale, the older you are the less you have to do to get the same points. What's that, an admission that age affect physcial fitness? Why don't the run time and waist measurement reflect that reality?

And I won't even start on that there is a different standard for males and females.

The standard is flawed and needs to be fixed.

[imnohero]

I'll use myself as an example to demonstrate what I mean.

I've had the same physical performance since I was 25.
75" tall
36" waist
Can do 40 pushups and 40 situps in a minute
Run 8 minute mile (that's 12 minute 1.5 mile time)
My weight has always been 195-200 pounds. (puts my BMI just under 25)

When I was 25 my fitness score would have been 84.75
When I was 35 my fit score was 85.5

This year, at 39, I gained a couple pounds and weigh 201. So this year, my fitness score will be just above "passing" at 77.7

I gained 3 pounds (putting my BMI >25). I can still run an 8 minute mile and do the same amount of pushups/situps. Just had my retirement physical, my medical info says I'm in excellent physical condition, better than many people 10 years younger (said the doctor). So why does my test score change 7 points? Did my fitness level change that much?

[BlueLabRat]

Just make PT and weight tests like random urinalysis tests.

Everyone gets selected at least once a year to do their PT test and weigh in by a disinterested centralized testing official. PT tester and instructors are duty positions worthy of being done by civilians on the AF payroll to keep the force fit, so no additional duties need be done to distract the real uniform players.

You pass great! See you next year during the no notice test.

You fail; sorry YOU failed to meet standards so here is your LOR and YOU now get the daily PT regiment and extra before and after duty hours mandated PT scrutiny until you come back into standards.
Why mass punish everyone for those few who are not self disciplined enough to meet standards.
Keep failing at YOUR PT and weight, then start the formal demotion and exit strategy already available.

Why does AF have to waste time, money, and mission effort frustrating the law obiding masses by always formulated silly unpopular routes like the bicycle test and wimpish soft angles to promote personal fitness and weight compliance?

[mjmille]

When talking about fitness, I think we all agree we can be in better shape. I do however, do not beleive in a cookie-cutter Air Force. The fitness test has so many problems right now, we cannot afford to lose good people, because we cannot find the connect or disconnect. Rather than worry about seperating people; because the current standard is not working, why not do more tests to find the right answer.
Over the years, the Air Force has lost many high quality people due to a run time, the amount of push ups, or a waist line. The question I am trying to ask is; what is our job in the Air Force when dealing with highly complex equipment? Do you need to run a 10 minute mile and a half to fix a multi billion dollar aircraft? Do you need to do 55 push ups in one minute in order to maintain a multi million dollar main frame? Do you need to do 70 push ups in a minute in order to maintain the operations of a multi billion dollar building? All of these processes and procedures were working fine before the PT program was ever introduced. If your answer yes to any of these questions; then you will never understand how hard the people, in our Air Force past, were working for your qualitiy of life you have now.

[SSgt Buffness]

The fitness standards are set pretty low. Any person worth his or her salt should be able to push their carcass up off the ground more than 5 or 10 times. Crunches are easy when someone's holding your feet and you only have to touch your elbows to your thighs. A mile and a half may feel uncomfortable or even boring, but old people run marathons. If you can't seem to get your waist down to the mid to low 30's, you're not big boned. Face it, you're fat...OR you're one of those few who are stacked like Ronnie Coleman and there are concessions for people like you.

If you can't meet the aforementioned LOW PT standards, realize, at least in this sense, that you're an epic fail. Realize also that there are tools available to you to change this. Of all the tools, whining is not among them. Even if whining to leadership did effect a change in standards, it would not change your status as an epic fail. Dining facilities, commisaries, BXes, shoppettes, Wal-Mart...they all have healthy food to choose from. The gyms are free and typically open at least 18 hours a day. A Tae-Bo or Buns of Steel DVD, a fitness magazine, a smoothie...they are all typically cheaper than a night at the club or at T.G.I. Fridays.

Group PT is not a solution. If you fail, you may drag the unit down, but the unit is not to blame. Motivate yourself. If someone (or the unit) is willing to help you, then great. However, it shouldn't be anyone else's responsibility to take care of your body but yours.

As far as complaining about whether or not others slide by, it's pointless. It is either within your power to stop it or it isn't. If it is, then DO something. If it is not, then choose to excel yourself, and distance yourself from the failures; vertically, if not horizontally. Paradoxically, you can do this even when forced to work along side them. Let leadership determine whether the individual is worth investing in further.

[sweatyAZ]

The fitness standards are set pretty low. Any person worth his or her salt should be able to push their carcass up off the ground more than 5 or 10 times. Crunches are easy when someone's holding your feet and you only have to touch your elbows to your thighs. A mile and a half may feel uncomfortable or even boring, but old people run marathons. If you can't seem to get your waist down to the mid to low 30's, you're not big boned. Face it, you're fat...OR you're one of those few who are stacked like Ronnie Coleman and there are concessions for people like you.

If you can't meet the aforementioned LOW PT standards, realize, at least in this sense, that you're an epic fail. Realize also that there are tools available to you to change this. Of all the tools, whining is not among them. Even if whining to leadership did effect a change in standards, it would not change your status as an epic fail. Dining facilities, commisaries, BXes, shoppettes, Wal-Mart...they all have healthy food to choose from. The gyms are free and typically open at least 18 hours a day. A Tae-Bo or Buns of Steel DVD, a fitness magazine, a smoothie...they are all typically cheaper than a night at the club or at T.G.I. Fridays.

??? Im gonna guess you've been at the same base your entire career, because i've yet to see anything healthy at the base stores or a gym open 18 hours at the bases I've been at. If you can't make the current standards (excluding waiste for the more solid guys) then yes you do need more PT, but the only EPIC fail is that the Air Force is actually sacrificing man hours and money into this bullshit program. Not to mention listening to someone who made a 40 on their asvab but loves to drink three protein shakes everyday. PT doesnt mean crap in an AOR no matter how many people like to point out otherwise, due to the bottom line....we are not the Army! Incase you forgot your AF history we seperated from the Army due to specific functional differences. I dont why PT nazi's keep thinking they are gonna be in the next Black Hawk Down scenerio? This subject is a minor problem blown out of proportion, there are bigger problems that need to be fixed first. I've never seen anyone unable to do their job on the flight line due to physical phitness, and if your a desk jockey do you really think you have a place to complain about someones physical capacity to do their jobs if you are not in their direct chain of command. The only thing that needs to change is the waiste measurement, the rest is fine. Wow imagine that, if the AF had only paid attention to the original complaint it could of saved millions, yet agian...EPIC FAIL.

[bringit!]

NEGATIVE. Leave it alone, damn it! The standards are set. They are good. Change everytime some goof gets a whim for some bullets is NOT good.

Just like the uniform...EVERY freakin' couple of years or so there's a scramble to catch up with stupid unneeded changes....STOP THE MADNESS!!!!!

Here, here...I can't remember all the times I've seen the knee jerk reaction to something or someone failing by creating a bandaid policy in an attempt to "fix" what was caused by filaed leadership in the first place!!!

Right there with you on that one!

[bringit!]

I hate this argument, let the leaders lead the PT session. That is BS, they send a few people to the PTL class for a reason, EMPOWERMENT. Allow the PTLs to run the PT program. I have been at 2 locations now where even though the PTL has a plan for the day, the "unqualified" flight chief says, nah we are going to run today. That is all some people want to do, but that isnt the best way to loose weight, or get continous improvment.

Running daily or having a routine doesnt motivate nor continue the improvement process. Do the different running excersise one month, then change it over to a more circuit training mixed with "fun" activities. Games and such will get peoples heart rates up if they participate.

I think you made the OP's agurment for him..."unqualified" flight chief is the real issue!!! and for empowerment of PTL's (junior enlisted personnel) What real (actually/effective) iINFLUENCE does a PTL have over someone wearing 4 more stripes. Sure...they can report the non-compliance...but isn't the goal for less than standard performance to correct the behavior?? To correct the behavior, there must be positive influence...how much influence can a A1C have over MSgt. with a horribly resistant attitude towards better fitness.

And really? "running daily or having a routine doesn't motivate nor continue the [fitness] improvment process" Really? Running daily doesn't improve fitness? And "games...will get peoples heart rates up..." ???? Really??? "...games..." ??? I can't imagine the response I would get from the spouses of the Airmen I've buried if they were to have asked me: "What did you do to prepare them for the risks involved and to bring them home safely"...if I were to respond: "we played games"

maybe if less Airmen were on the front lines in harms way.

[bringit!]

I'll use myself as an example to demonstrate what I mean.

I've had the same physical performance since I was 25.
75" tall
36" waist
Can do 40 pushups and 40 situps in a minute
Run 8 minute mile (that's 12 minute 1.5 mile time)
My weight has always been 195-200 pounds. (puts my BMI just under 25)

When I was 25 my fitness score would have been 84.75
When I was 35 my fit score was 85.5

This year, at 39, I gained a couple pounds and weigh 201. So this year, my fitness score will be just above "passing" at 77.7

I gained 3 pounds (putting my BMI >25). I can still run an 8 minute mile and do the same amount of pushups/situps. Just had my retirement physical, my medical info says I'm in excellent physical condition, better than many people 10 years younger (said the doctor). So why does my test score change 7 points? Did my fitness level change that much?

IMNOHERO:

The standard is solid...we want our Airmen to meet the stresses (mental and physical) they MAY be faced with in the perfomance of thier mission. I think we can all agree the role of the Air Force has dramatically changed in the joint fight considering our operations around the globe, and higher risks to the "average" Blue Suitor has increased significatly...considering the proximity to combat we are now serving. Additioanlly, I believe many people will support the argument that better physical health increases the ability to handle mental stress. However; the tools we use (a/c vs. ht/wt...vs. water submersion) may not be the most effective tools to accurately measure performance against the standard. It seems we're all in agreement with that assessment...(Are we really using the most effective tools to determine fitness levels?) I'm just skeptical that we as an insitution/organization (or whatever we want to call ourselves) will fail to see the other half of this issue: enforcement of the standards we set for our Airmen.

[imnohero]

I agree, we want airman to meet a particular level of physical performance. What minimum level of performance is not defined. Or at least not well defined.

It's semantics to discuss the measurement "tools" as if they are separate from "the standard." Since in the existing system, the tools are used to define the standard. If the tools are flawed the standard is flawed.

[SSgt Buffness]

??? Im gonna guess you've been at the same base your entire career, because i've yet to see anything healthy at the base stores or a gym open 18 hours at the bases I've been at. If you can't make the current standards (excluding waiste for the more solid guys) then yes you do need more PT, but the only EPIC fail is that the Air Force is actually sacrificing man hours and money into this bullshit program. Not to mention listening to someone who made a 40 on their asvab but loves to drink three protein shakes everyday. PT doesnt mean crap in an AOR no matter how many people like to point out otherwise, due to the bottom line....we are not the Army! Incase you forgot your AF history we seperated from the Army due to specific functional differences. I dont why PT nazi's keep thinking they are gonna be in the next Black Hawk Down scenerio? This subject is a minor problem blown out of proportion, there are bigger problems that need to be fixed first. I've never seen anyone unable to do their job on the flight line due to physical phitness, and if your a desk jockey do you really think you have a place to complain about someones physical capacity to do their jobs if you are not in their direct chain of command. The only thing that needs to change is the waiste measurement, the rest is fine. Wow imagine that, if the AF had only paid attention to the original complaint it could of saved millions, yet agian...EPIC FAIL.

I've been to multiple bases. All have a gym that at least opens at 0500 and closes at 2300. Some are even 24 hours. I've worked as a flightline technician, a backshop technician, and 2 years ago cross-trained into a desk jockey position. I always found time to utilize tools the Air Force gave me, like the gym, the library, tuition assistance, and CLEP/DANTES books. STAY OUT THE SHOP SNACK BAR! Get some healthy food and bring it to work. Instead of buying Mountain Dew at the Shoppette, I got water...or I saved my money and drank out the water fountain at work. Every DFAC I've been to thus far has served salad, chicken breast, baked beans, and cheeseburgers as a staple, with other stuff to choose from. I see Kellogs fruit bars everywhere. I think I've seen more Wing Commander directed 5K runs going on at bases than I ever knew existed. We're doing one this morning, in fact. Worried about your spiritual well-being? There's a chapel on base.

Some of these tools I've been fortunate enough to use on government time. Some, I've had to care enough about myself to do on my own time. I am currently in the AOR and nothing has really changed in my options accept the fact that they are fewer in the arena of wasting time. Ever wonder why half the people that deploy come back with everyone saying "Did you lose weight?" Sure...you can attribute this to the hot sun, but when you can't go off base, or get drunk off loser Kool-Aide at the bar, or veg out in front of a t.v. for 5 - 10 hours any given day, the choice to get in shape almost comes as a default.

All of your wellness needs are supported by the Air Force on some level or another. Why waste your breath complaining that an aspect of one program doesn't suit you?

[sweatyAZ]

Once agian the point sails over the head. The point is that to much time and money has been put into a program that isnt that big of a priority right now. There are bigger issues at hand then PT. I for one don't wish to eat grilled chicken with a glass of water for the rest of my life. Yes I've been to the AOR, but where I went we didnt have 5k fun runs because that would of been stupid and life threatening. Yes there was a gym, but you know how many times I went, none, you want to know what I scored on the PT test after I got back, 86. That is perfectly fine with me, not only did I meet the standard I exceeded it. That was without making my life unbearably booring. Its friday night, so I'm off for some "looser Kool Aid"

[SSgt Buffness]

Ah, so if I understand you correctly, the problem isn't the standard but, the Air Force's methods of enforcing/promoting the standard. Fair enough. Now you have to consider the costs and ramifications of not enforcing/promoting the program. They are many. You'd best have an analytical background, and even then you can't really hope to put all the pieces to the puzzle together to get a complete picture. It may seem easy to apply common sense principles to the machine, but the whole is far mor complex than the individual parts precisely because it is comprised OF the individual parts. There are people in great shape and people in poor shape; people who meet standards, and people who don't; people who excel and people who slide by. Yet they are all a part of the hold and quite intertwined. They all require a level of attention. Hence "programs."

[sweatyAZ]

Ofcourse the machine is complex, there arnt to many jobs in the AF that are not. Now tell me where the machine has broken down due to physical fitness. It hasnt, so why the fuss.

[SSgt Buffness]

Ofcourse the machine is complex, there arnt to many jobs in the AF that are not. Now tell me where the machine has broken down due to physical fitness. It hasnt, so why the fuss.

Agreed. As a fit guy, I naturally think everyone should endeavor to be healthy. However, I understand that many simply aren't, and it doesn't bother me at all. The machine suffers in those areas where physical fitness is needed. But that sufferage is typically negligable. Hell, poor health is almost indistinguishable from laziness. The breakdown could be eaither one.

[schwag_guest]

Agreed. As a fit guy, I naturally think everyone should endeavor to be healthy. However, I understand that many simply aren't, and it doesn't bother me at all. The machine suffers in those areas where physical fitness is needed. But that sufferage is typically negligable. Hell, poor health is almost indistinguishable from laziness. The breakdown could be eaither one.

Good point, is it the chicken or the egg? Either way I'm with you on this one! :thumbup:

[NCO_USAF]

I would also have to agree with the post that says: "Leave it alone." There are talks/rumors of USAF just going to BMI as standard. Any educated person knows that BMI does not apply to all. There is plenty of research which shows it cannot be applied to muscular members. [I know this as a former NCAA athlete.] If we just use BMI, then a good portion of our muscular/healthy members are now just classified as "obese or seriously obese." Muscle always weighs more than fat, but the BMI does not take this into consideration. Ex. I am 33 years old, 5'9" and 179 lbs. BMI says I should be 168 lbs. But I max out my push-ups and sit-ups, and have a 32.5" waist. I cover the 1.5 miles in 12 minutes flat. I scored about 87.75. But to some of my leadership/management, this is unacceptable... They say I should be scoring higher and running faster.... But I am not entirely sure that we are being reasonable as an Air Force. But then again, I have been through Army CST for pre-deployment training, and not every person can say they have been through this, and survived without injuries... All I know is, when I put on all the "FULL BATTLE-RATTLE" gear, no matter how fast I can run, I cannot outrun a 7.62 mm full-metal jacket fired from an AK-47. I just wanted to add my two cents, for what it is worth...

[Stang5150]

If we train like we fight then I suppose we are training to be as skinny as possible so that if we turn sideways the enemy won't see us or we are able to turn and run for at least a mile and a half away from the fight in under 9 minutes. Before the run I guess that if there was a firefight and a bicycle nearby I could peddle away from there before my V02 maxed out. ;)

[sweatyAZ]

I agree with the Buff that laziness is an issue that needs to be stamped out immediatly if our Airmen display it. I have friends who love to work out and eat nothing but chicken and tuna all day long. I just cant get myself to do it, makes everything to bland and boring for me. Our lives are rigid enough given the nature of our job but to do it to the things I can control is just a bit much for me. I do have a little rebelious streak in me and I guess by eating a cheeseburger one day instead of tunasalad is just my of fighting back agianst something I believe is getting way to much attention right now. Hell sometimes I wiggle my toes around in my boots while standing at attention just so a part of me is moving even though its not supposed to be. I do my PT and thats it, thats all there should be. Going to the gym for extra time should be a personal choice. As long as someone passes their PT test and can do their job there really shouldnt be any discussion.

[DHarris75]

I posted this in another thread, but I think it makes sense and wanted to put it the more appropriate PT thread.


Part of the problem is the standard is not standard. The AFI says if I pass my PT test, my EPR reflects that and I'm good to go.

Now some CCs are raising that standard. At my unit, they are talking about needing an 80 to go TDY in the very near future. We are getting tasked very heavily at the moment - and we have a lot of folks between 75-80 - I myself am at the 77 mark - but I ran a 12:24 and that's faster than about 30 folks in my unit. But, we have skinny minnies that run slower than my mark, but have an 80+ because of their skinny waist. They get to deploy, while they are looking at not deploying those under an 80.

Make it standard. If 80 is the standard, say it. It started at 70, than raised to 75, now it's looking like some want it to be 80. But if it's not standard - you have a variance and it all just depends on how YOUR CC wants to handle it that will decide your future. This CC thinks 75 is passing and that's the standard...while this CC wants you to have an 80 to do your job.

Draw a line. If you are ON the line...than you pass. Period...end of story. Give some kind of award if you want to the guys who run a 8 minute mile and a half...but don't take away things from those that just pass.

I myself, I am happy about my 77. My last score was a 75. I want to get an 80 next year. But I feel if I pass - than I have met the standard. If I get a 77, than I have exceeded the standard. So leave me the F alone and let me do my job.

And stop changing the standard. I'm not a PT guru. I'm not the guy that will get 95+. I have to work to run fast. I've gone from 14:24 to 12:24 in the last year. Now I am confident I can do this PT thing, meet the standard, and not get nervous or afraid about testing. Now there are "rumors" about pull ups. Great...I can't do those for crap. So I'd have to start at 0 and work up.

They put the rung at 70 - and I worked and worked and met it (after a decade of riding the bike). Then they moved the rung up...and now I can comfortably meet it. Great! Now, some want to raise that rung again.

I think the waist measurement sucks - but I have worked and worked, lost 20lbs, got my run down - and I've got it down. Don't go changing it AGAIN.

[AlanW]

DHarris,

I wouldn’t get all caught up in the hype about the standard becoming an 80 to pass. A lot of different rumors are going around right now. If your unit does not want to deploy people with <80, then it has some serious issues. Just keep on trying to get better and improving your score, and it sounds like you have come a long way. Also, never say you cant do anything (commenting on your pull ups comment) because you can do them. I am not trying to be the raw raw “cheerleader” but anyone can do anything if they practice and try hard. It sounds like you are more than capable, evidence by reducing your run time by 2 minutes, in one year.

However, I am all about the AF changing the PT test! Personally, it is a joke (it is too easy) and the standards need and should be a bit tougher. I get max points on the waist measurement—but I feel that it should be taken away. The Air Force is all about results and numbers, so why dont we just measure the physical stats that include a run, push ups and crunches? I feel that the test could be made a little bit harder(or at least revamp the scoring where 15 push ups dont get someone 7 points) and comprimise by removing the waist portion. If the test changes to only score points for run time, push-ups, and crunches, then nobody could complain about the waist measurement. Also, the HAWC should conduct PT Tests, not PTL’s.

[Pueblo]

I think I've seen more Wing Commander directed 5K runs going on at bases than I ever knew existed. We're doing one this morning, in fact... I am currently in the AOR...

...The fuck??????

[Need4Pain]

I have a problem with the PTL program altogether.

First of all I believe it can be corrupted.

I failed my PT test in 2006 because of my shin splints. I usually do my 1.5 mile run in over 12 to over 13 minutes.

The pain was so bad that I ended up walking the whole 1.5 miles. I was always maxing out on the push up and sit ups and during the time the PTL Measured me at 40.5 inches at a bodyweight of 260 pounds. The previous year I was 260 pounds and was measured with a 37 inch waist.

Since I failed I was put on the weight management program. Since I couldnt run, I was placed on profile.

I went up in weight to 270 pounds but the head PTL measured me at 43 inches!

I lost weight to 250, he measured me with a 42.5 inch waist measurement. I dropped weight to 230 pounds, and was measured with a 41.5 inch waist measurement!

During this time, they were trying to meet Force Shaping requirments so I knew that there was a conspiracy.

Example: I usually max out on my pushups and sit ups, suddenly I get called into the commander's office and was told I went down on all my PT scores. I went online and found that the PTL listed me as doing only 30 push ups/sit ups! The PTL changed my score! When i left the room the day of my evautation, I did 50 something sit-ups...Im not talking crunches, I am talking about full sit ups.

**There was no official form I signed and from what Ive been told the PTLs at my unit just wrote down people's scores on scratch paper or a napkin!

I remember at one point the head PTL measured my waist a week before I did my actual PT test. When I complained why my waist measurement wasnt done the day of the PT test, he told me the PTLs were going to be on leave and that was why he needed to mneasure me a week before.

That unit I was in did monthly PT test and if you didnt score a 75 or better, you had to do remedial PT test by the unit to include push ups, sit/ups, and 1.5 runs and waist measurements.

What pissed me off the most was the head PTL would do suprise waist measurements. What I meant by that was, its the afternoon, and you already had breakfast, lunch, and drank liquids so you are going to be bloated. Your waist is going to be bigger compared to when you had an empty stomach when it is early in the morning.

The standard was to measure 3 times and adding them together and divding by 3 rounding down to the nearest half inch to get the average. The PTLs were only taping once!! And I believe they were round up not down!!

Since I was on profile, I had to do that bike test which is not accurate. From what I was told, me failing the bike test was equivalent to me doing the 1.5 mile run in 45 min to an hour...thats how the bike test scored me...

I have to go to PT now but I will be back and write more of my experience from my last unit...

**Also note... Im a competitive ametuer NPC bodybuilder .... so I knew they were trying to screw me over...

[DHarris75]

I do agree with the we are doing it now in PACAF - all testing is done at the HAWC starting Mar 1. Just got the email from the HAWC outlining details yesterday. You'll get notified by your UFPM of you appointment and it's a mandatory appointment just like anything else.

To the base fitness guy (civvy), you are just a number. So I think that's great!

I know I can do pull-ups if I start working on them - and I am going to start regardless. I just hate all the changes. Draw the line in the sand and leave it so I can work on achieving it. I will always work to improve...my point about having to get an 80 is more about standardization across the AF. If pass with a 75-80 and you are at unit XXX, you are good, but if you go to unit XYZ, you are held back.

Oh well...just keep plugging along.

[NCO_USAF]

Well, here at my PACAF base, they have decided that we have no choice at all anymore. You must run first. No more push-ups or sit-ups first to warm-up the body. You can do waist measurements before or after. I am just hoping that PTLs are fully trained and certified to comply with all applicable AFI's regarding fitness... If not, they will just be highly paid civilians who just are not doing their job correctly, jeopardizing many Air Force careers...

[BIGGUNS85]

My unit's PT program isn't bad, although I havent been able to gague the effectiveness of the program since I work out for an hour afterwards.

It would be nice if the PTLs would concentrate more on pull-up/back exercises and sprinting. In a large squadron like mine, an ideal PT session is one that involves running for 3 miles. Sure, I can do it, but VERY S-L-O-W-L-Y. 3 1/2 years into squadron-based PT, and my run AND physique have steadily declined in quality mostly because the guys who are good at running blow through the session in 10 minutes leaving the rest of us to straggle along in our own shortened breathing.

[BlueLabRat]

Looks at the blogs. Listen to Airman every day. Ask why good people are getting out one way or another and a clear mountain of evidence is growing. Air Force PT is just one of many but clearly a prime example or program on why the USAF is so screwed up! Apply this mini zealot attitude to any and all other directed programs and operations and you quickly see why we spent so much time self inflicting the force with negative cycles of infighting and avoidable frustration. Sorry I blame Chief of Staff of the Air Force. Rein in the force leaders who are creating their own mini Air Forces out here. Enforce only one single approved from the top standard nothing less but now more importantly nothing more!!!!!!!!!!!. Be on target not under or over target because both create manning and morale problems.

How many Air Force standards are there????

The old above the standard trap is where your wannabe chief of staff of the air force is getting ahead of themselves more and more.

If a suggest for a better way is unchallenged properly, evaluated and found to be the best way forward for the entire Air Force then order it across the force in one mass update or change. Do not allow Airman to get subjected to wide ranging and varying degrees of career impacting and quality of life actions by the whim of who is in charge this year in their command or unit or section. That is not sound leadership that is unguided missile leadership. Make leaders get credit or bullets for their promotion by having their ideas adopted by the Air Force not forced upon an in discriminate amount of Airman haphazardly as they jump from one unit or base to the next. This unhealthy strain of leadership virus is being allowed to spread unchecked. Find a fix fast to cure the multiple Air Force standard syndromes it is making life increase unbearable and strikes unpredictability. Core to most of our daily organizational problems and daily frustration is lack of simple, clear and uniform standards in all things Air Force. Every supervisor and commander now freely practices way too much unchecked, unchallenged, unrestrained authority to boldly interpret and create their own AF standards and enforcement rules on core, baseline service wide programs. This practice is mutating wildly. One persons path to promotion is now simply being as radical in their ability to raise the AF bar at their unit or base with the blessing of chain of command either by lack of guts to control the tyrants or allow others to do the dirty work in case t somehow fails. Non involvement to correct is as guilty as direct supporting of the multiple pick your own standard mayhem.
There should be no unit, installation or major command PT or BMI standard official or unofficial is must be the AF standard. Time has come and gone for new but now old Air Force senior leaders to get a grip on their service and rewrite the AFIs to clearly remove and allowance for subordinate leaders to go above and beyond standards. Keep it simple, keep it safe, all USAF members need only worry about the single transferable AF standard. PACAF or AFMC, Hill AFB or RAF Lakenheath or Ramstein AB, xxx Group or xxx Squadron, x Flight or x section , Ammo or AGE do not need their current leaders spin on what a passing score should be to pass or go TDY or be nominated for an award etc etc etc. It should be the very same in every single unit on every installation not clouded or jaded by individual or personal likes or dislikes or expectation no matter what the rank or position . Too many cooks spoils the soup, well too many generals and those aspiring to be are now spoiling the differing standard of the force. Lead but do not create the next level of anything until it goes AF wide!!!!!!!

[Need4Pain]

I have a question.

Can someone tell me how I can report someone who is abusing the PT program?

This person is obviously out of shape and obese but to get away from taking a PT test, this person goes on profile.

This is a true story: Example:

Last year, me and this TSgt were supposed to have done our PT test on the same day last year in March. So we went to the gym and did cardio together. The guy was stomping and hitting his feet on the ground to cause himself injury. This was like a Saturday or a Sunday when he was doing this.

Our annual PT test was just maybe a few days away. I believe it was on a Monday.

On that Monday, I showed up. This TSgt did not show up at all.

After my test, I showered and went to work. He was at work in crutches with a swollen foot. Remember that weekend I told you he was slamming his feet on the ground? Who knows what he could have done at his residense.

Well, he went to the Doctor that morning, and was placed on profile. **The profile that the Doctor gave said no exercise whatsoever, no pushups, sit ups, walking, swimming, ect!!! How can a doctor prescribe a profile with no exercise whatsoever even to include a stationary bike???!!

I went to lunch with him and his wife and told him that they are still going to test him anyways and thta he better be careful because it is suspect.

His wife told me that they arent going to test him because he is on profile. I told them, "Yes, they are and they will"

She told me that they werent and to prevent that, that were were going to try to schedule surgery to prevent him from ever testing. So during all that recuperation which they believed would take almost a year long... he would be ready to be able to retire. The TSgt already has 19 years in. And ready to retire at 20 years.

Later that week, they taped this TSgt and he failed the tape measurement. I know he didnt have to do the run because he got on a profile and the doctor gave him crutches

I warned him and his wife that they were still going to try to test him somehow but they didnt believe me and got pissed off at me when they taped his waist!

Well, I told another TSgt what this TSgt was doing, and he told him everything I said about him abusing the PT system. That TSgt and his wife out of retaliation, held onto my safe that had all my important documents such as passports/naturalization papers to screw me over because I opened my mouth.

When I tried to get my things back they denied they had it. Since they lived onbase, the military police told me that they were not going to search his residnce because it is a private dwelling.

They told me they could have if I had a weapon in that safe.

I tried everything I could to get my safe back that had all my important things.

When I got my 1st Sgt involved, he asked me why they would hold onto my stuff and I told him and the commander it was because I openned up my mouth about the TSgt abusing the PT program and the profile system and that this TSgt was close to reitrement.

I told the chain but they stuill didnt do anything about this corrupt TSgt abusing the PT system and stealing my stuff.

Please tell me what I can do. It has been a year and this TSgt will retire next year...

If anyone can be of assistance, please help me....

[AF-1Sgt]

Sounds like the shirt needs to have a meeting with the two of you and your supervisors to hammer this issue out once and for all. I am pretty sure a little iinfluance from them will convince him to allow the shirt/supervisor to check his house for the safe.

Did you or he sign anything saying the safe was or was not in the house? If so then he may not want to do anything becasue that is false official statement.

Profile or no profile, there are very few reasons to exempt the waist measurement and he should know that and he should also know that they will continue to do the taping every 90 days till he passes.

[AF-1Sgt]

I posted this in another thread, but I think it makes sense and wanted to put it the more appropriate PT thread.


Part of the problem is the standard is not standard. The AFI says if I pass my PT test, my EPR reflects that and I'm good to go.

Now some CCs are raising that standard. At my unit, they are talking about needing an 80 to go TDY .


We were told by a MAJCOM Command Chief if he had his way any shirt that can't score an 80 or better woud lose their diamond.

[Need4Pain]

Sounds like the shirt needs to have a meeting with the two of you and your supervisors to hammer this issue out once and for all. I am pretty sure a little iinfluance from them will convince him to allow the shirt/supervisor to check his house for the safe.

Did you or he sign anything saying the safe was or was not in the house? If so then he may not want to do anything becasue that is false official statement.

Profile or no profile, there are very few reasons to exempt the waist measurement and he should know that and he should also know that they will continue to do the taping every 90 days till he passes.

Sir,

The TSgt did admit my things were at his house but he also told the Shirt that I picked everything up.

When our Shirt asked him permission to search his house for my things, the TSgt told our shirt "No" and that it was a privacy issue.

It was then that the First Shirt told me that there is nothing he can do because it was a private dwelling (even though it is an on base housing)

Ill paste what happenend below-Ive hidden some names to keep this anonymous:

This was a letter talking about the incident to provide some sort of timeline...

Sir,

I am getting all my facts together from various people who are writing
statements regarding my situation and what transpired thereafter.

Here is my timeline regarding when I tried to get my things back.

Near the December 2007, I PCSd here to AFB. I did a partial Dity
Move where I had a few of my belongings in my vehicle.

During the December 2007 timeframe. The G's allowed me to keep my things
at their on base residence.

What I was told that there "was no rush" and I could pick it up at anytime
that I wished and because I work on the base and come on the base any ways
so my stuff will be there at any time I choose to pick it up.


At the of December 2007, I signed a contract for an apartment but didn't
move some of my belongings in till Mid January 2008. That apartment was
pretty much empty except for blankets that my wife gave me to which I slept
on the floor. The reason why it was bare was because my household goods were
not received by the movers as of yet.

Near Mid January 2008, I got my computer and a rucksack full of clothes and
other things from the G's residence. I did not get my service coat or my
safe from their house.


The reason why I left my safe and other things at their residence was
because of the snow and ice In January 2008 through March 2008. The G's
never shoveled their snow or broke any ice on the property and I did not
want to risk falling and slipping due to carrying a 50-70 pound safe. I was
always told by both the G's (Sandra and Richard) that I can pick them up
anytime I wish and that my belongings were safe at their residence. They had
asked me what was in the safe and I told them all my personal and valuable
information such as passport, SSN, checks were in there. They told me my
things would be safe at the residence. So in January 2008, I didn't pick up
my things due to the snow and ice and because I trusted what they had told
me.

February 2008, there were incidences of snow and ice as well. And they
understood this because they told me during this month that my things were
safe and I can pick them up at a later time. I remember few certain times I
tried to pick up my belongings from the G's during the month of February.
I would show up and call the G's and say that I was picking up my stuff.
When I would arrive at their place, they wouldn't answer the door or answer
their phone.

This occurrence also happened as well in the Month of February 2008 and
March 2008 when I was training for my PT test. TSgt G and my PT test was
on the same day. And we agreed to train with each other and run with each
other in the mornings at the Pride hangar to prepare for the PT test. I
agreed to pick him up at his house to run with him but it never came to be.
He wouldn't answer his phone or answer the door when I knocked. The previous
night, he would tell me to pick him up and the following morning, it never
came to be. He would later tell people at work that I never showed up at the
P hangar and that he always showed up.

**I am using what I said above as an example. Just like he would say he
would run with me in the morning, he would never show up or answer his door.
The same can be said of when I tried to get my things back repeatedly in the
month of February 2008, they would never answer the door but yet tell me
that I can pick my things up when I wanted. Other times I would ask if I
could pick it up during lunch hours and would be told that they are "busy"
with things.

In February -April 2008, I asked a fellow worker, TSgt Snuffy, if he could
pick my things up from the G's residence. He told me that he didn't wish
to be involved but told me to get the First Sgt involved.

In March 2008, the G's relinquished their friendship with me due to me
talking about him cheating the PT system from various people at the
workplace who had told them what I said. I told TSgt H who had told
him. I told TSgt G that I had things at his house and was told by him,
that He, TSgt G, doesn't care! When I spoke to his wife who works in my
section, she told me that what I did was unforgivable and that I was not
welcomed at their house for anything.

**Let Remind you that I still kept a professional relationship at my work
place with Mrs. G even though they prevented me and disallowed me to pick
up my things.

Since, I have known them since I believe 2005, I felt that their anger would
subside and I can ask for my things at a later time. I did not forget that
my things were at the Gs' house. I wanted their anger to dissipate.


In April 2008, I talk to Sandra and asked her if they were both still upset
at me. The reason why I asked was because I wanted to see if there was a
chance that I could get my things. I knew that if they were still angry that
there would be a possibility that they would keep my things. She told me
that I was still not friends with them and I am still not welcomed to come
to their house. ** I didn't have to mention asking for permission to come
to their house because she knew the reason why I wanted to come to their
house.

So I waited.

In May 2008, I approached the G repeatedly and asked them if I could
pick up my things. I was told that I had gotten all my things and that the
closet was empty. When Mrs. G told me that I objected and asked if I can
go there myself and was told that I was not welcomed at their residence. It
was to that point that I had spoken about my situation to TSgt D and
MSgt G. (My supervisors)

I tried to be professional in a way that I wouldn't accuse them or make them
look bad because we once were friends and I didn't know that they would do
this to me.

In June 2008, I got my First Sergeant involved.

What I typed in this statement was true.

I am in the process of getting more statements from other individuals about
the occurrence of the G disappearing for hours from work on the day we
had a meeting with the First Sergeant. I'm also in the process of getting a
statement from TSgt Snuffy requesting for assistance to get my belongings
from Feb-April 2008.

VR,

SSgt M

[Need4Pain]

And this is what I wrote to my Shirt to nitiate the search of the G's onbase residence which never came to be... This was sent to the IG...


3 Sept 08

I, Sgt M, believe that my safe and a few of my personal belongings
may still possibly be in the G's on base dwelling on Bull Court.

Below are my facts as to why I believe that my safe to include some of my
personal belongings may still be in their possession.

In the month of June 2008 when I had reported the incident to my First
Sergeant, Senior Master Sergeant Snuffy, I called various places to notify
them about a stolen safe and other belongings which could have been thrown
away into the trash system as a way to discard evidence.

I first contacted K Trash, AFB's trash contractor
(###-###5575) and informed them about my situation. Keifer referred me to
Blank City's Landfill site (###-###-4197) who also was made aware of the
situation. Blank City Landfill finally referred me to Blank City's
Recycling plant (### ###-3496). They were made aware of the situation about
my stolen belongings as well. Blank City's Recycling Plant informed me that
if they found a safe, that they would open it and contact me immediately.
Since June 2008, I have been contacting them periodically to check the
status of any safe found. They have my contact information should any safe
be found.

As to this day, no safe has turned up at Blank City's Recycling Plant.

In the Month of June 2008, I also contacted the Blank Police Department
and informed them of my situation. Blank Police Department told me that
if a safe was found by any Law Enforcement organization, that I would be
notified (given if it wasn't destroyed if they believed it was some sort of
explosive device). I gave them my contact information as well and pleaded
for them to contact me if a safe was discovered with my identifiable
information.

The safe contained personal information to include my Social Security Number
as well as my Naturalization paperwork. The safe also contained blank checks
to one of my banks.

To this day, I have not cancelled those checks nor told the bank that it is
missing or stolen. I did this for the fact that should one of the checks be
cashed, the bank could run a trace to see where and what location the check
was cashed at. As of this day, there are no unauthorized checks cashed or
used.

I also do credit checks to see if any lines of credit were opened in my name
using my SSN. As a previous victim of identity theft, I regularly check on
the status of any unauthorized transactions to my name. As of this day,
there are no unauthorized accounts created in my name.


The reason why I believe that my safe and other personal belongings may
still reside at the G's on-base residence at Sitting Bull Court is my
personal belief that since it is a "private dwelling", the G's believe
that no search could be conducted at their "private dwelling".

The G's , namely Tech Sergeant Richard G, were informed by AFB
Security Forces that no search could be conducted at their on-base
residence. Hence the reason why I personally believe they "feel" they are
safe to conceal my safe and personal belongings in their on-base dwelling.
With this working in their favor, I believe that they, the Gs, feel
that they are secure and safe, because they have this protection as a
blanket to shield their deceit.

The contents of what I described above, gives me reasons why no checks have
been cashed nor any unauthorized transactions have not been created as of
yet in my name, using my SSN. Because my safe and its contents may still be
in the G's possesion.

Tech Sergeant Richard G is eligible for retirement within a year or two
years. My personal belief is that once he retires, he, Richard G, cannot
face any repercussions from military action.

I also believe the Gs know that I, SSgt M, have contacted
organizations outside of Blank AFB i.e. Trash Services, Law Enforcement
Agencies , ect. The Gs know that should a safe or any unauthorized
transactions using my personal information i.e. SSN, ect were ever found,
that the incriminating evidence would fall on them. So the best course of
action (I believe) that the G's are taking is to keep my personal
belongings to include my safe and other things in their dwelling because
they, the Gs, believe that their on base dwelling on Blank AFB is
secure from being searched.

What I stated in this letter is true and was written to the best of my
abilities and recollections.


Very Respectfully,

SSgt M

[CrustySMSgt]

We were told by a MAJCOM Command Chief if he had his way any shirt that can't score an 80 or better woud lose their diamond.
I've heard the same for Command Chiefs... gotta lead by example!

[CrustySMSgt]

N4P,

Not sure why you'd send to the IG... not anything that falls under their purview.

Did you formally file a theft complaint with SF, to incldude signign a sworn statment? They'd have to investigate. If there is reason to suspect your TSgt, a search of the house could be authorized. He'd be a real dumb-ass if after all the drama it was still in his house... but nothing surprises me anymore...

As far as his PT test, that is up to his supervisor, the shirt & the CC. I am sure he could care less if he gets a referral, since he's retiring. If he fails enough times he could face administrative demotion. But that ain't your chicken to pluck... Sounds like you should have formally adressed your concerns instead of gossiping around the unit.

[fufu]

I do agree with the we are doing it now in PACAF - all testing is done at the HAWC starting Mar 1. Just got the email from the HAWC outlining details yesterday. You'll get notified by your UFPM of you appointment and it's a mandatory appointment just like anything else.


That sounds like crap for shift workers. Instead of grabbing a PTL that works the same shift as I do, now I have to stay after work or otherwise alter my "normal" routine. I've worked MIDS alot in the last 10 years, I'd hate to have a PT test at 0900. That is like me PT testing dayshifters at 1am.

[Rastaman]

I've heard the same for Command Chiefs... gotta lead by example!

You can't graduate Shirt school without a PT score of 80 or above.

[Angry Irishman]

I've heard the same for Command Chiefs... gotta lead by example!

Then make the standard 80 or above...that's why it's a standard. Or we can just change the EPR system again. Shirts and Command Chiefs are not elite; they have a duty title and job like everyone else.

Meanwhile, I and my unit have beyond inadequate manning, zero parts, experienced folks, morale or fricken common sense in what used to be the Air Force. Everything is a rally and everything is political anymore...it's a shame that my Air Force has become a company.

Oh yea...HUA! Another embarrassing example of mindless people.

[Angry Irishman]

And this is what I wrote to my Shirt to nitiate the search of the G's onbase residence which never came to be... This was sent to the IG...


3 Sept 08

I, Sgt M, believe that my safe and a few of my personal belongings
may still possibly be in the G's on base dwelling on Bull Court.

Below are my facts as to why I believe that my safe to include some of my
personal belongings may still be in their possession.

In the month of June 2008 when I had reported the incident to my First
Sergeant, Senior Master Sergeant Snuffy, I called various places to notify
them about a stolen safe and other belongings which could have been thrown
away into the trash system as a way to discard evidence.

I first contacted K Trash, AFB's trash contractor
(###-###5575) and informed them about my situation. Keifer referred me to
Blank City's Landfill site (###-###-4197) who also was made aware of the
situation. Blank City Landfill finally referred me to Blank City's
Recycling plant (### ###-3496). They were made aware of the situation about
my stolen belongings as well. Blank City's Recycling Plant informed me that
if they found a safe, that they would open it and contact me immediately.
Since June 2008, I have been contacting them periodically to check the
status of any safe found. They have my contact information should any safe
be found.

As to this day, no safe has turned up at Blank City's Recycling Plant.

In the Month of June 2008, I also contacted the Blank Police Department
and informed them of my situation. Blank Police Department told me that
if a safe was found by any Law Enforcement organization, that I would be
notified (given if it wasn't destroyed if they believed it was some sort of
explosive device). I gave them my contact information as well and pleaded
for them to contact me if a safe was discovered with my identifiable
information.

The safe contained personal information to include my Social Security Number
as well as my Naturalization paperwork. The safe also contained blank checks
to one of my banks.

To this day, I have not cancelled those checks nor told the bank that it is
missing or stolen. I did this for the fact that should one of the checks be
cashed, the bank could run a trace to see where and what location the check
was cashed at. As of this day, there are no unauthorized checks cashed or
used.

I also do credit checks to see if any lines of credit were opened in my name
using my SSN. As a previous victim of identity theft, I regularly check on
the status of any unauthorized transactions to my name. As of this day,
there are no unauthorized accounts created in my name.


The reason why I believe that my safe and other personal belongings may
still reside at the G's on-base residence at Sitting Bull Court is my
personal belief that since it is a "private dwelling", the G's believe
that no search could be conducted at their "private dwelling".

The G's , namely Tech Sergeant Richard G, were informed by AFB
Security Forces that no search could be conducted at their on-base
residence. Hence the reason why I personally believe they "feel" they are
safe to conceal my safe and personal belongings in their on-base dwelling.
With this working in their favor, I believe that they, the Gs, feel
that they are secure and safe, because they have this protection as a
blanket to shield their deceit.

The contents of what I described above, gives me reasons why no checks have
been cashed nor any unauthorized transactions have not been created as of
yet in my name, using my SSN. Because my safe and its contents may still be
in the G's possesion.

Tech Sergeant Richard G is eligible for retirement within a year or two
years. My personal belief is that once he retires, he, Richard G, cannot
face any repercussions from military action.

I also believe the Gs know that I, SSgt M, have contacted
organizations outside of Blank AFB i.e. Trash Services, Law Enforcement
Agencies , ect. The Gs know that should a safe or any unauthorized
transactions using my personal information i.e. SSN, ect were ever found,
that the incriminating evidence would fall on them. So the best course of
action (I believe) that the G's are taking is to keep my personal
belongings to include my safe and other things in their dwelling because
they, the Gs, believe that their on base dwelling on Blank AFB is
secure from being searched.

What I stated in this letter is true and was written to the best of my
abilities and recollections.


Very Respectfully,

SSgt M

You should turn him over the secret police for interrogation and reeducation.

[Bunit2]

I'll be honest, I thought the PT program was working against me because I I'm a big guy and I was worried about waist size. Then I took my PT test last month. After weighing in at 262 lbs a few months prior I had dropped down to 240 and was still able to walk out of the test with a 33" waist and an 11:30 second 1 1/2 mile run. I had just worked out chest and abs the day before so I only did like 37 and 48 push ups and sit ups respectively. There is no way in hell I should have passed that test only doing 37 push ups but I had the waist size and the run time to back me up. BTW I also smoke. If you fail today's PT test...you really deserve it.

As far as leadership goes, I have never seen a commander lead a regular unit PT session. I have seen commanders run the base-wide warrior runs. The Wing CC will lead the pack and each unit will have their commander and first shirt run in front of the squadron. I work maintenance so I wouldn't really expect to see our commander at PT because our shift schedule is just crazy. To top that, we are just starting a unit PT program. In maintenance, we either do PT one of three ways:

1) Your shiftleader lets you out for 1 1/2 hours to go do PT a the base gym. The honor system is in play here.
2) You do PT on your own time
3) You don't do PT at all

What is anyone going to do to fix it. Probably nothing at all.

[DHarris75]

Our entire sq does PT at 0650 Mon-Wed-Fri and at work at 0900. We form up in flights, have the Section Chiefs report in to the leader of the session, then the leader commands "Post" and the section chiefs go to the back line with the senior leadership. Then the flights form to the right in one formation and we expand out and do exercises/stretches in cadence - then we start PT. Sometimes it is just a long run, sometimes it's a last man up run, sometimes intervals or buddy runs - just depends. On Wed it's Crosfit. But we do it all together. We do Ruck marches and buddy pulls - a pretty decent variety all aimed at a max workout. If you come in here and give 110% everytime (no matter your current level) you WILL get better.

On Tues/Thurs - it's PT on your own if you are above a 75...and you come in at 0900.

But our CC is ALWAYS out there (as a rule). But he doesn't lead it. We rotate who leads the formation - if you are enlisted in the unit, you pull a turn. The PTLs are up front to aid if needed...but the CC is usually just doing it at their lead like the rest of us. But he gives 110% and does a good job of leading by example - following the PTLs lead.

But we have those that do not give 110%. They are now, after about 8 months, starting to be held accountable. Fall out of a wing run or a ruck march and you can expect to raise some eyebrows from senior leadership...and if not eyebrows - you will be called into their offices. So that's a good thing.

But again - PT = GOOD / PT SCORE as a measure of doing the job = FLAWED.

[Bunit2]

[QUOTE=DHarris75;197810]But we have those that do not give 110%. They are now, after about 8 months, starting to be held accountable. Fall out of a wing run or a ruck march and you can expect to raise some eyebrows from senior leadership...and if not eyebrows - you will be called into their offices. So that's a good thing.
QUOTE]

I absolutely hate to see someone fall out of a Wing run. That is absolutely disgusting to me considering most wing runs are about 2 miles at a snails pace. When I was in my worst shape I was able to at least run 3-5 miles at a moderate pace.

[fufu]

I'll be honest, I thought the PT program was working against me because I I'm a big guy and I was worried about waist size. Then I took my PT test last month. After weighing in at 262 lbs a few months prior I had dropped down to 240 and was still able to walk out of the test with a 33" waist and an 11:30 second 1 1/2 mile run. I had just worked out chest and abs the day before so I only did like 37 and 48 push ups and sit ups respectively. There is no way in hell I should have passed that test only doing 37 push ups but I had the waist size and the run time to back me up. BTW I also smoke. If you fail today's PT test...you really deserve it.

What are you, 8ft tall? I can't image a 240lb person with a 33" waist.:D

[fufu]

Our entire sq does PT at 0650 Mon-Wed-Fri and at work at 0900. We form up in flights, have the Section Chiefs report in to the leader of the session, then the leader commands "Post" and the section chiefs go to the back line with the senior leadership. Then the flights form to the right in one formation and we expand out and do exercises/stretches in cadence - then we start PT. Sometimes it is just a long run, sometimes it's a last man up run, sometimes intervals or buddy runs - just depends. On Wed it's Crosfit. But we do it all together. We do Ruck marches and buddy pulls - a pretty decent variety all aimed at a max workout. If you come in here and give 110% everytime (no matter your current level) you WILL get better.

If you don't mind answering, what is your job? I can't see any situation I'd need to do a ruck march. Just curious what you do.

[Bunit2]

What are you, 8ft tall? I can't image a 240lb person with a 33" waist.:D

I actually am pretty tall. I am 6' 4". It will be interesting to see what my waist size is now because I now weight 223. I was like 240 at the time of my test.

[DHarris75]

I'm in Combat Comm attached to a Contingency Response Group in PACAF.

But it's not just my unit...I'm on Andersen, GU and the culture of the base is built around the Warrior Ethos. I've never seen so many people/units doing PT together as I have on this base. In the AM, you see units everywhere forming up in formations and doing a standard set of cals for warmup/stretches. And there are a handful of units that do ruck marches around the base or through the jungle on occassion. At least once a month, you'll see a unit doing one for PT. I like doing them - it weeds out the people who get a 90, then stop trying for a year...or the people who get a 90 based on waist size. If you are skinny AND weak, you'll have a hard time carrying a 35lb ruck on a fast march for 3-4 miles on rough terrain.

Our Wing Runs are 1 1/2 runs. But the first half of it is a pretty steady incline...but that means a downhill run on the way back. It just depends on how we start - sometimes it's fast, sometimes it's slow. A lot of times, we'll start out at a 7 minute mile pace, but then the slinky effect will kick in and we'll slow down to a 9 min mile pace, than speed up to a 7 minute mile pace. The last run I timed us at 14:05 - but there were some slllooooow stretches - but that means there were some fffaaaasttt stretches.

[smarg]

I'm in Combat Comm attached to a Contingency Response Group in PACAF.

But it's not just my unit...I'm on Andersen, GU and the culture of the base is built around the Warrior Ethos. I've never seen so many people/units doing PT together as I have on this base. In the AM, you see units everywhere forming up in formations and doing a standard set of cals for warmup/stretches. And there are a handful of units that do ruck marches around the base or through the jungle on occassion. At least once a month, you'll see a unit doing one for PT. I like doing them - it weeds out the people who get a 90, then stop trying for a year...or the people who get a 90 based on waist size. If you are skinny AND weak, you'll have a hard time carrying a 35lb ruck on a fast march for 3-4 miles on rough terrain.

Our Wing Runs are 1 1/2 runs. But the first half of it is a pretty steady incline...but that means a downhill run on the way back. It just depends on how we start - sometimes it's fast, sometimes it's slow. A lot of times, we'll start out at a 7 minute mile pace, but then the slinky effect will kick in and we'll slow down to a 9 min mile pace, than speed up to a 7 minute mile pace. The last run I timed us at 14:05 - but there were some slllooooow stretches - but that means there were some fffaaaasttt stretches.

Sounds like a good program in place there. And, looks like the usual enlisted Maintenace whiners haven't fully attacked yet with their regular bytch and gripe "we can't blah blah we work blah blah" horse shyt. They usually ruin good ideas and programs around the world. Go figure. :rolleyes:

[LOAL-D]

Sounds like a good program in place there. And, looks like the usual enlisted Maintenace whiners haven't fully attacked yet with their regular bytch and gripe "we can't blah blah we work blah blah" horse shyt. They usually ruin good ideas and programs around the world. Go figure. :rolleyes:


I see a trend throughout your posts smarg, bad experience with maintainers? Got to be a story behind the hostility.

[DHarris75]

Well, not here. Apparently this style of PT was going on here for a while before I got here, and I've been here for 15 months. Don't look for it to change anytime soon...and that's a good thing.

Don't get me wrong - somedays you absolutely dread it. But the longer you are here, the more engrained it becomes in your existence. Now, it's just a another day...our Wing Run yesterday, our group did a last sq up during the run. It's just the way it is - and I wouldn't mind seeing what we have here become the norm around the AF. We have a flightline and bombers on their ready to go...but we still manage our PT.

[DHarris75]

Well - since we do PT 5 days a week anyway, there is no lost time. It's just we all do it together as a wing for that one day out of the month.

I actually think it's pretty cool. Maybe the first few times I had the usual complaints, but I got use to it. Individuals definately have their complaints - but I think it's value added.

For us, we look forward to it because it's our easiest PT day..."Only a mile and a half?"

And I'm not trying to keep where I'm at a secret...doesn't matter to me :)

[AF-1Sgt]

You can't graduate Shirt school without a PT score of 80 or above.

As of now that is correct, but when I went to the Academy that was not the case. I have scored above an 80 one time in my career. I have fought and struggled with my fitness all my career HOWEVER I have also busted my hump to get the job done.
I have made a very consious decision that in the balance between work, fitness and family when something has to give it's fitness. I can't remember the last time I worked less than a 10 hour day, and that includes when everything was going right in my squadron. You can tell me all you want that I need to go to they gym on my time, but it isn't really my time. It's the Air Force's time since I get called all hours of the day and night and it's also my families time because I Love and respect my family and will spend some time with them and not just when they are going to bed.
Anyone is free to say anything they want to me about being a slacker a bad example or any other derogitory term, but I know I take care of my troops and my family before I take care of myself. I know the people I have helped at 0200, the family with a terminal military member and having housing issues, the families I have helped stay together, the troops I have picked up at jail, the ones I visited in jail, the families I brought food and toys to, the troops i got hundreds of phone cards in the desert to, the ones I pulled shifts with into the late nights just to get back up at 0600 to get ready for work don't care one bit if I scored a 75.01, a 50 or a 100 on my PT test. They just cared that I was there to help.
I am a First Sergeant, PEOPLE ARE MY BUSINESS. I have less than 100 days till my retirement and I am still fighting and busting my rear for my troops.

[AlpineTactical]

The PT programs for all of the branches are fatally flawed, but the AF program is terrible. I am a strength & conditioning coach and have been dealing with this issue for years. There is no logical thought or science behind it. But thats not the worst part of it.

Physical training is a fairly complex issue. If a program is designed properly it can be kept simple. But the AF saw fit not to do this. They half-assed it badly. For example, the only standard or requirement they set was the actual passing of the PT Test itself. The test is terribly flawed and with no additional goals or guidance it falls on it's face. It makes no sense to make an Airman's career-long goal to do more push-ups at a tempo that results in shoulder injury. Way to go... But worse still is the complete lack of education. The PT Leader's course teaches you nothing of any value (I went through it at 3 different bases). Personal trainers are a disgrace and PT Leaders don't have a fraction of the knowledge that a personal trainer has. That is not to insult them, since it's not their fault, its a statement of fact. Thats how low on the education platform they stand and it's wrong.

Without proper training, the PTL is essentially worthless. He/she cannot properly design training programs, has no understanding of the basic principles of training, has no applicable experience and no source of additional information to continue their education. The AF just threw out an idea and left it alone.

What is needed is a plan and a system. I'm working on that right now but my god, the AF has to open it's eyes and look around. This is NOT the best that can be done, rather it's the worst.

[AlanW]

Nathanael,

I pretty much agree with your post and what you are saying. There is a lot of criticism to go around when it comes to the PT program and PTL’s. You seem like a very knowledgable guy and probably have a lot of expertise when it comes to PT. However, you pointed out a lot of things that are poor, but I would love to hear some solutions (and I think you may have some). It sounds like you feel that PTL’s are totally incapable of running a program (you classified them as less than a disgrace). Do you think we should hire outside professionals to lead PT? If not, what type of proper training would you suggest for PTL’s? Is there a way to do this that does not cost an arm and a leg?

I think the AF PT test is too easy, BMI and waist measurements are garbage and should be removed. I really believe that I could roll out of bed half drunk, run half of the 1.5 mile test backwards, take a water break, skip the crunches portion completely, and still pass the test. The test is far from challenging! I would love to see a test that is built truly around results (numbers). The push-ups are here to stay (I know doing push-ups as fast as possible can injure a shoulder). However, there has got to be a way to account for strength and endurance and the push-up is the most basic military movement, and I do not think that will ever change. I feel that it is possible to do a slower controlled push-up and still max out the test.

If it were up to me and I could change the test I would make it as follows:

2 mile run

2 min push ups

2 min sit ups (not crunches)

Pull ups


Eliminate the waist portion, add pull ups , other slight modifications

[fufu]

Nathanael,

I pretty much agree with your post and what you are saying. There is a lot of criticism to go around when it comes to the PT program and PTL’s. You seem like a very knowledgable guy and probably have a lot of expertise when it comes to PT. However, you pointed out a lot of things that are poor, but I would love to hear some solutions (and I think you may have some). It sounds like you feel that PTL’s are totally incapable of running a program (you classified them as less than a disgrace). Do you think we should hire outside professionals to lead PT? If not, what type of proper training would you suggest for PTL’s? Is there a way to do this that does not cost an arm and a leg?

I think the AF PT test is too easy, BMI and waist measurements are garbage and should be removed. I really believe that I could roll out of bed half drunk, run half of the 1.5 mile test backwards, take a water break, skip the crunches portion completely, and still pass the test. The test is far from challenging! I would love to see a test that is built truly around results (numbers). The push-ups are here to stay (I know doing push-ups as fast as possible can injure a shoulder). However, there has got to be a way to account for strength and endurance and the push-up is the most basic military movement, and I do not think that will ever change. I feel that it is possible to do a slower controlled push-up and still max out the test.


Perhaps it is easy for you, but not for others. Not everybody has athletic ability or good genes. I think the last thing people want is a harder or easier test. I think the majority of people want a FAIR pt test.

[MaintChief]

Nathanael,

I think the AF PT test is too easy, BMI and waist measurements are garbage and should be removed. I really believe that I could roll out of bed half drunk, run half of the 1.5 mile test backwards, take a water break, skip the crunches portion completely, and still pass the test. The test is far from challenging! I would love to see a test that is built truly around results (numbers). The push-ups are here to stay (I know doing push-ups as fast as possible can injure a shoulder). However, there has got to be a way to account for strength and endurance and the push-up is the most basic military movement, and I do not think that will ever change. I feel that it is possible to do a slower controlled push-up and still max out the test.

If it were up to me and I could change the test I would make it as follows:

2 mile run

2 min push ups

2 min sit ups (not crunches)

Pull ups


Eliminate the waist portion, add pull ups , other slight modifications

And what is exactly the point of making it harder? Who is going to fix our aircraft, who is going to work your pay issues, who is going to feed you in the chow hall? The PT studs? I don't think so. We are WASTING way too much time on this. The mission of the USAF is to fly, fight, and win. Not run and do situps. PT has its place but the current over-emphasis on PT to the detriment of the mission has got to stop. I can provide you tons of data concerning declining MC rates but I don't think a single sortie has been prevented due to PT failures. I'd rather have a shop full of people who can fix aircraft and keep my MC rates above the MAJCOM minimum and who score 75 on the PT test than a shop full of PT studs who love looking at themselves in the mirror all day thinking how great they are (not) yet can't find their way to the flightline with a map and GPS.

[AlanW]

Fufu,

I understand what you are saying, and I totally agree with making the PT test FAIR. FAIR would be to remove the waist portion because not everyone is built the same way. FAIR does not mean that we should have a test where 15 push ups can earn someone 7 points out of 10. I do not want the test to become impossible for some, by making it comparable to a Special Forces PT test. I just want people to work hard, to do well.

However, with Air Force standards as low as they are (not just in PT) it can be tough to stay motivated. For example, firewall 5's are given out like candy to everybody. Earn a 100% on the PT Test, who cares? Take 10 classes with a 4.0 GPA, who cares? Excel at work, who cares? Everyone is getting rewarded the same for mediocrity.

I feel that the standards in the Air Force are low across the board. It's not just PT, its everything. It is frustrating at times, it is hard to stay motivated. It is so de-motivating to go to PT because nobody wants to be there and those slackers are the antithesis of hard work. I do not know how else to explain it, except the only thing that keeps me going sometimes is pride.

[AlanW]

MaintChief,

It is really funny/frustrating to me when PT becomes the detriment of being able to fix aircraft, or financial issues, or the Air Force itself. On a side note, dining facilities are going away. Everyone will be getting BAS, so we will not be able to blame PT for that anymore. However, I would not blame the emphasis on PT for declining MC rates, rather the blame should fall on the lack of leadership or training. How about blaming declining MC rates on a stressed career field that faces numerous challenges with many deployments? How about limited manning and working in tough conditions? I am not a maintainer, but I respect the career field. You sound like a guy who gets the job done. I used to be in Security Forces, so I know what it is like to be crapped on. I loved the job though. However, your views are so one-sided that it is almost as if you hold a grudge against people with high PT scores. Why can’t someone do everything they are required to do, and get a good PT score? The AF has a mission and you are right it is to fly, fight and win. However, it is off base (even if funny) to stereotype PT jocks as meatheads, who are incapable of doing the job (and cannot find their way to the flight line with a GPS and a map). If someone solely relies on their PT score to become successful in the Air Force, then there are issues. I feel that PT is just a component of being well rounded. A solid Airman should be physically fit, improving themselves with education, getting the job done, and have a positive attitude.

You said, And what is exactly the point of making it harder?
I just happen to think that the Air Force is too easy, and PT is too easy. If it stays like this then so be it, it is a nice life. However, people are spoiled and expect things to be handed to them. Make things harder and people perform better. If you want make the standards harder at work as well (to keep MC rates up), so be it. I am all for it.

Anyway, sometimes people will not agree on every issue. The important thing is to respectfully disagree like gentlemen, and not stereotype an entire group of people. I love the Air Force, probably just as you do, and it is okay to disagree about PT. I am the type of person who thinks that 1 hour a day x 3 times a week is not a detriment to anything. There are many other ways to create efficiencies at work, to save time. However, I am pretty low on the totem pole in the Air Force and my opinion rarely amounts to hill of beans.

[swampdog31]

There is really no reason to make the test harder-- We aren't the Army or Marines. I work with both Army and Marines and they do PT 5 days a week before work. I doubt the Air Force would allow Airmen to work out 5 days per week during duty hours. I do workout 5 days a week but that's because my own personal standards are higher than the Air Force standards.


All the Air Force has to do.

1. Eliminate the waist measurement as part of the PT score, but go back to the weight charts. If you make your weight, then you meet standards. If you don't make your weight then you have to get bodyat measuremets from the HAWK. Slim people won't be rewarded and chubby people won't be punished.

2. Make sure the standards are properly enforced. This could be done by only a few selected NCOs in the unit can conduct PT tests. Or do mass PT tests where leadership could make sure the

[MaintChief]

MaintChief,

It is really funny/frustrating to me when PT becomes the detriment of being able to fix aircraft, or financial issues, or the Air Force itself. On a side note, dining facilities are going away. Everyone will be getting BAS, so we will not be able to blame PT for that anymore. However, I would not blame the emphasis on PT for declining MC rates, rather the blame should fall on the lack of leadership or training. How about blaming declining MC rates on a stressed career field that faces numerous challenges with many deployments? How about limited manning and working in tough conditions? I am not a maintainer, but I respect the career field. You sound like a guy who gets the job done. I used to be in Security Forces, so I know what it is like to be crapped on. I loved the job though. However, your views are so one-sided that it is almost as if you hold a grudge against people with high PT scores. Why can’t someone do everything they are required to do, and get a good PT score? The AF has a mission and you are right it is to fly, fight and win. However, it is off base (even if funny) to stereotype PT jocks as meatheads, who are incapable of doing the job (and cannot find their way to the flight line with a GPS and a map). If someone solely relies on their PT score to become successful in the Air Force, then there are issues. I feel that PT is just a component of being well rounded. A solid Airman should be physically fit, improving themselves with education, getting the job done, and have a positive attitude.

You said, And what is exactly the point of making it harder?
I just happen to think that the Air Force is too easy, and PT is too easy. If it stays like this then so be it, it is a nice life. However, people are spoiled and expect things to be handed to them. Make things harder and people perform better. If you want make the standards harder at work as well (to keep MC rates up), so be it. I am all for it.

Anyway, sometimes people will not agree on every issue. The important thing is to respectfully disagree like gentlemen, and not stereotype an entire group of people. I love the Air Force, probably just as you do, and it is okay to disagree about PT. I am the type of person who thinks that 1 hour a day x 3 times a week is not a detriment to anything. There are many other ways to create efficiencies at work, to save time. However, I am pretty low on the totem pole in the Air Force and my opinion rarely amounts to hill of beans.

We probably agree more than we disagree. I have no problem with PT or with those who exceed the standard. What I do have a problem with is a system or leadership that expects my Airmen to work 50-60 hour weeks minimum in addition to adding an hour or so of PT to their duty day. AFI 21-101 clearly states that an Airman is to be given the opportunity for 8 hours uninterrupted rest after pulling a 12 hour shift. Where is the time for CCAF? Where is the time for family? Where is the time for training? We are kicking out productive Airmen that are experts in their fields but because they have a 42 inch waist they are seen as "incompatible" with AF standards. These Airmen then go to work for a contractor who does not care about their waist size and I get a 1 or 2 striper to replace them with. An untrained 1 or 2 striper. It takes YEARS to make a good troubleshooter. The USAF functioned extremely well for many years without the current "Army/Marine" mentality that is infesting our mindset. And contrary to popular belief, we were not out of shape or unable to perform. We did our jobs, and did them well. It really doesn't matter...I retire in 24 months. I'll collect my 75% retirement and go to work for a UAV or other defense contractor. And I'll deploy with the USAF doing the jobs that the USAF used to be able to do on its own, but now can't because of downsizing or loss of expertise. But I won't go quietly...I can't stand what is happening to my Air Force and I'll be damned if I shut up and color...I won't drink the Kool-Aid and I sure as hell ain't afraid to say so to any Command Chief or squadron commander.

[fufu]

We probably agree more than we disagree. I have no problem with PT or with those who exceed the standard. What I do have a problem with is a system or leadership that expects my Airmen to work 50-60 hour weeks minimum in addition to adding an hour or so of PT to their duty day. AFI 21-101 clearly states that an Airman is to be given the opportunity for 8 hours uninterrupted rest after pulling a 12 hour shift. Where is the time for CCAF? Where is the time for family? Where is the time for training? We are kicking out productive Airmen that are experts in their fields but because they have a 42 inch waist they are seen as "incompatible" with AF standards. These Airmen then go to work for a contractor who does not care about their waist size and I get a 1 or 2 striper to replace them with. An untrained 1 or 2 striper. It takes YEARS to make a good troubleshooter. The USAF functioned extremely well for many years without the current "Army/Marine" mentality that is infesting our mindset. And contrary to popular belief, we were not out of shape or unable to perform. We did our jobs, and did them well. It really doesn't matter...I retire in 24 months. I'll collect my 75% retirement and go to work for a UAV or other defense contractor. And I'll deploy with the USAF doing the jobs that the USAF used to be able to do on its own, but now can't because of downsizing or loss of expertise. But I won't go quietly...I can't stand what is happening to my Air Force and I'll be damned if I shut up and color...I won't drink the Kool-Aid and I sure as hell ain't afraid to say so to any Command Chief or squadron commander.


I wish you were our chief......

[fufu]

Fufu,
However, with Air Force standards as low as they are (not just in PT) it can be tough to stay motivated. For example, firewall 5's are given out like candy to everybody. Earn a 100% on the PT Test, who cares? Take 10 classes with a 4.0 GPA, who cares? Excel at work, who cares? Everyone is getting rewarded the same for mediocrity.


I don't see it that way. I know in my career field(flightline mx), we never hear positive feedback when things go right. The only feedback we've ever heard is negative, especially at my current assignment...going on 4 years here. I guess I could leave, but why? In 4 years, we've had different commanders/chiefs/shirts and it is always the same negative feedback. That leads me to believe that any assignment I go to will be the same thing. So, since I enjoy this area off duty, I'll stay here.

People do NOT get rewarded equally as far as awards go. The same people win the same awards time and again. Nobody else is even nominated from our section. I'm not arguing the EPR system, we all know that is flawed.

PT is great. I've dropped 35 pounds in the last 6 months myself. But, I have to agree with the MXchief, it shouldn't be the only deciding factor in an Airmans career. There is WAY too much emphasis on having a good PT score and very little on mission/job accomplishment.

[mfjdspence]

...There is WAY too much emphasis on having a good PT score and very little on mission/job accomplishment.

That goes for Volunteering too!

Good points and keep it up Fufu.

[AlpineTactical]

AlanW:

Yes, I do have some solutions. First let me address the cost issue. The cost of doing this the right way is certainly more than what the AF spends today. However, that cost pales in comparison to the medical cost that this program incurs. So looking at it like that, the right way saves tons of money in a different area. Easy enough.

OK, now for the right way. The simple fact is that PTL's have to go through what amounts to a Personal Trainer's course. However, it has to be properly tailored to the requirements of the military. No personal trainer course out there addresses ruck marching, running, swimming, O-course, etc... These are critical oversights that have to be addressed. The course also has to cover troubleshooting, rehabilitation, sports medicine (just an intro level) and program design. The course must be very heavy on proper exercise selection and technique. These are two areas that I see as absolutely abysmal throughout the entire DOD. A program like this will produce smart and capable PTL's who will know what they are doing when they return from the course.

BUT, it doesn't stop there! The medical corps is in a sad state of affairs! We have doctors, med techs and PAs who have no clue about exercise physiology, sports medicine, etc... I deal with this every darn day with many of my personnel. The standard reaction to injury is to prescribe motrin, cortisol shots and do nothing. This is crap! The medical corps MUST go through the same course of instruction or a separate sports medicine course. This way the medical corps is an asset and a force multiplier instead of the deadweight anchor that they are. IDMT's trained as Athletic Trainers would save the USAF millions a year in Motrin alone!

Finally, PT must become a priority for all, especially the command structure. It isn't now and we all know that. They have to embrace it and take ownership of it. If they do they will realize that a proper program builds unit cohesion, a poor one destroys a unit.

Now, for those who think this is all a waste of time... This is the military and Air Force or not, this is the profession of arms. The dynamics of warfare are always changing. It is the responsibility of every service member to be able to pick up a weapon and fight. I don't care what your AFSC/MOS/NEC is. If all that is just too bothersome or scary, perhaps a different line of employment is in order. Commanders who are incapable of figuring out how to schedule PT into the daily schedule may want to go back to school. Extending the duty day is not how you get more done. Thats how you destroy people's lives and families. Take a hard look around. Most folks do a lot of goofing off and 2 hours a day dedicated to PT takes out a lot of goof off time. Time to examine the workplace a little more carefully and insightfully.

[AlpineTactical]

Forgot to mention the almighty waist measurement. It's crap! There is no science that can support it. Allow me to give an example. I had an officer on my team who was a collegiate runner. His bodyfat percentage fluctuated between 3-6%. He was 6'6" tall. His waist measurement was 37". If he was a skeleton he could not have gotten a smaller measurement! And this is the case for far to many. There is no defense for that stupidity.

Now that I think about it, the push-ups and sit-ups are retarded too for many reasons. The run, well, I can live with it, but no one knows how to train for it, so until that happens it's pointless.

[AlanW]

MaintChief,

Thanks for explaining your situation more in detail. I understand about working a 12 hour shift, and then trying to balance everything (I used to be Security Forces), but now work an office job. I admit when I was in my previous career field it was very hard to take classes, but I somehow managed to take a few. I played basketball and softball for my Squadron, and did something called Defender Challenge, so I always ended up getting enough PT. I know that luxury is not afforded to everyone though. You know, I can see your point about losing valuable troubleshooters (you are probably in much more of a leadership position than myself). It must be painful to watch good people get shafted. I don’t know what to say about that, you have slightly changed my position/opinion about PT. However, I have ALWAYS been against waist measurements. I am more into pure stats, and think that BMI and waist measurements are a complete joke! You know I wish I had someone in my Squadron (like you) who would stand up for their people. Like I said, I work in an office environment and the backstabbing and sabotage is out of control. I really think I should have stayed in Security Forces, but I am thankful for the opportunity to take a lot of classes. I commend you for not going quietly, and have the guts to say what you need to say to the Chief or CC. I too have a choice right now to get out of the military in the next year or so, or re-enlist. I love the Air Force (not just saying that). Most likely I re-enlist (thinking about a special duty). Anyway, thanks for the response (it was very insightful).

[AlanW]

Fufu,

You know the awards program is out of control in the AF (I agree w/ you 100%). Congrats on dropping 35 pounds in 6 months (that is awesome)! I also agree with you that if there is too much emphasis on a PT score then that is not good. My whole point was that an Airman should be well rounded, and not hide behind a good PT score. My only other point was to make the test harder (which MaintChief has slightly changed my mind). You know I am probably just like most people who want to see the waist measurement eliminated. If that happens, then I am happy. It’s not for me I get 30-30 on that portion, but it is ridiculous. Genetically speaking the waist measurement is very unfair. I know how hard flightline mx is, and you got my respect for doing that job. I used to think cops got screwed the worst, but I think it is flightline mx. Anyway, good post and it always nice to have a good discussion.

[mfjdspence]

I am still for the dropping of the waist measurements and going to a Pass - Fail system. Have % points on your items only encourages additional cheating to get that extra day off or to avoid an unofficial, "You almost didn't pass" system. Right now my squadron has two separate PT groups for those who get over 80 and those who go below. It isn't right for those who passed the test to get grouped with those who are in need of additional support. It isn't right to segrate the group from the rest anyway as it promotes negative attitudes. We are all in this together...1 team 1 fight...