Our New Squadron PT Policy

[AF_MSgt]

My squadron has a new PT policy that went into effect today. Here are a few of the highlights:

75-79.99: you will take an official PT test every 120 days.
80-89.99: you will take an official PT test every 180 days.
90-100: you will take an official PT test once a year.
If you fail a test, you will re-test on Day 42. 90 days is no longer an option.
Once you pass following a failure, you will take an official test every 90 days until you have 4 consecutive passing scores.

It was approved by the HAWC and reviewed by the Legal office. Bottom line from both: Physical fitness is the commander's program and responsibility. As long as the commander stays within the confines of the AFI, he/she can make it as stringent as they want.

I expected to see stricter standards once the new AFI was released, but this one caught me off-guard. What are your thoughts?

[Smeghead]

I thought the AFI specifically stated that members couldn't retest until 45 days after a fail.

[MACHINE666]

Sounds like your squadron has some kind of Fitness Nazi regime in place. Sign your PT questionnaire "Ich bin gegen die Tyrannei der merheit" before turning it in to your fitness monitor.

I can understand perhaps doing a quarterly diagnostic test to give people a 'freebie' before they take one that counts, but to officially test people like this is absurd. Completely out of control.

What base are you located at? I don't ever want to PCS there if I can help it.

[CrustySMSgt]

Not sure what type of unit you're in... but if it is one where all members are able to fully participate per the instruction (3x per week on duty time) then I think it is a great program! If it is a unit where not everyone gets the same opportunity to PT, then I'd say there might be room to wonder if it is the right thing to do.

If you are doing PT regularly, you could be half-dead and knock out a 75.

The "freebie" discussion came up at the CLC... IF we are supposed to be fit at all times, can someone keep their integrity intact giving a "freebie" test and not identify a member who is not within standards? Just something to think about...



I thought the AFI specifically stated that members couldn't retest until 45 days after a fail.

Nope, it is 42 days

[AF_MSgt]

Every single member of our unit has the opportunity to PT for 90 minutes, 3 times a week.

Our commander established this new policy for two reasons:
1) to prevent people from ramping up their fitness 2 months prior to their test and then letting themselves go for the next 10 months
2) to encourage lifestyle changes (if you are riding the 75-78 line, it would behoove you to get in better shape)

[CrustySMSgt]

Every single member of our unit has the opportunity to PT for 90 minutes, 3 times a week.

Our commander established this new policy for two reasons:
1) to prevent people from ramping up their fitness 2 months prior to their test and then letting themselves go for the next 10 months
2) to encourage lifestyle changes (if you are riding the 75-78 line, it would behoove you to get in better shape)

Sounds like a very smart commander!

[MACHINE666]

Or someone who is trying to get promoted *cough Bacon*

[FLAPS]

Or someone who is trying to get promoted *cough Bacon*

Hmmm....shouldn't all commanders, or anyone for that matter, be interested in doing a good job and getting promoted? Who cares what the CC's motivation is, as long as the initiative serves a real purpose...in which case this one (PT initiative) clearly does.

[MACHINE666]

Well if a commander was truly concerned about the health of his or her members, he wouldn't resort to such heavy-handed tactics to make sure people are exercising year round, don'tcha think?

My squadron has a similar program where people who rank 75-79 are 'at risk' and they enroll them in a 5-day work out program until they get 80 or better, but the difference is if you bomb one of your tests they're not going to burn you alive if you're not scheduled for evaluation. See, that's the difference - working WITH your people instead of looking to possibly shorten their careers if they're having a bad time in their life.

But I dunno - with all the focus that PT is getting here and across the AF, it's only natural that people will go overboard with this crap, and even demand more abuse than ever before. Why not just make it mandatory that people get enrolled in a total body composition program like some professional bodybuilder while we're at it? Then the Air Force can have its wet-dream poster boy types like they want from the start...

[CrustySMSgt]

Why not try to fight it with an unlawful discrimination complaint?

Basis: lower scoring individuals are being put at increased risk of failure via having an 'off day' since they are being forced to test more often during the year. Adding merit to your argument, the low scorers are also being subjected to more stress, etc. - possibly because of nothing more than their body composition.

You might not win the case; but we have got to start pushing back if we want these ridiculous changes to the PT program to stop.

ygtbfshm! :rolleyes:

[BlueLabRat]

Again highlights the root problem in today’s vain USAF leadership multi-practice.

Lack of service wide uniformity and a single AF wide standard.

Local and MAJCOM commander policies are like cheap a$$ opinions - everyone has one, except in the military each and every subordinate has to compete and survive through a changing revolving door of whim and policy, aggravated with each new command, base, CC or supervisor.

What good is having AF personnel accountable to differing AF program standards based solely one individual’s interpretations or emphasis below AF level? Ego building and chaos.

Need only one clear cut and non bendable AF play book - anything else is just frustration breeding distraction to duty and same old circle of wheel spin in manure.

[CrustySMSgt]

Well if a commander was truly concerned about the health of his or her members, he wouldn't resort to such heavy-handed tactics to make sure people are exercising year round, don'tcha think?

My squadron has a similar program where people who rank 75-79 are 'at risk' and they enroll them in a 5-day work out program until they get 80 or better, but the difference is if you bomb one of your tests they're not going to burn you alive if you're not scheduled for evaluation. See, that's the difference - working WITH your people instead of looking to possibly shorten their careers if they're having a bad time in their life.

But I dunno - with all the focus that PT is getting here and across the AF, it's only natural that people will go overboard with this crap, and even demand more abuse than ever before. Why not just make it mandatory that people get enrolled in a total body composition program like some professional bodybuilder while we're at it? Then the Air Force can have its wet-dream poster boy types like they want from the start...

Heavy handed tactics?!? The Commander is merely ensuring they meet standards. We have proven time & time again, with everything we do... have a program with standards that aren't enforced, and people will fail to meet the standard. For years we've pussy-footed around with the PT program, with a good game being talked at all levels about how it is designed to be a lifestyle, not just a program revolving around testing. But have most units/Airmen really come very far from the once a year run/bike test? Nope... we dick around for 10 months, kick ourselves in the ass for 2 months, pass the test, and go right back to normal.

Do we need wet-dream poster boys? No... but you can't swing a dead cat without hitting someone with a bottom blouse button that is about to blow or a flightsuit about to bust at the seams.

Expecting everyone to meet a minimum standard of 75 is FAR from going overboard... and "motivating" those who are on the bubble to stay on the treadmill for an extra 10 minutes is the job of supervisors at all levels, to ensure their Airmen are set up for success... even if it is themselves we are protecting them against.

Until you put teeth in a program, people will continue to ignore it.

[FLAPS]

Until you put teeth in a program, people will continue to ignore it.

Just like any other rule or program. If you don't enforce the standard, then don't preach the standard!

[WILDJOKER5]

One, can you send me the entire policy? I absolutely love the idea. I skate by on a 75 score because that is all I need to do to meet the EPR standard. I still would every 90 days but I would do it because I dont need to prove anything about my fitness to anyone. I just want it because I believe there alot of people that do the 2 months hard till the PT test then slack off for 10 months. I absolutely hate the "mock" PT tests weather they are 30 or 90 days. If you are going to do the test, then make them count. Keeping people accountable all year long will make it a culture change and attitude change for the AF. Yeah, we are not the army or marines, but we show that with how easy our PT test is. How many of you barely passing this run could do the 2 or 3 mile run like the other services? I still think the test should be changed in the waist department, but usually that can be overcome by the way you eat and stay active.

[MACHINE666]

So Crusty are you telling me that everyone who served in the Air Force prior to this revolutionary new method of PT testing was a disgrace to the service some how? Because they got on a bike, pedaled for 15 minutes and met the standard? I'd like to think that perhaps they maintained the level of fitness required for their job. Funny how the standard changed when General Jumper, Mosley and Chief McKinley were getting heckled by the Marines and Army and took it personally. So what - about 5 years total?

[WILDJOKER5]

What is the policy if you pass, are you mandated to be "lead" for PT or can you go do your own thing till you fail? That way, if you are makeing the 90s+, you usually get slowed down by the PTL lead sesions. So if you fail, then you get put in the program for 5 day/week till you pass. Or maybe just 3 days till you fail the second time then you have to go 5 days a week.

[WILDJOKER5]

Also, for all the people that say this adds undue stress on the not so fit peoples lives, are you really serious? The best stress reliever is doing PT. Being accountable for your weight should be a daily thing in they way you eat and what you do when you are on leave or dont have the PT day. Stay active, play intermural sports, go for walks, (running aroung WoW doesnt count). Find something you like doing.

[CrustySMSgt]

So Crusty are you telling me that everyone who served in the Air Force prior to this revolutionary new method of PT testing was a disgrace to the service some how? Because they got on a bike, pedaled for 15 minutes and met the standard? I'd like to think that perhaps they maintained the level of fitness required for their job. Funny how the standard changed when General Jumper, Mosley and Chief McKinley were getting heckled by the Marines and Army and took it personally. So what - about 5 years total?

We can go all the way back to the beginning of time and ask ourselves why we ever changed from wearing loincloths and clubbing our opponents if you think it'll help... but the fact is, we are an evolving service. You can bitch moan about how much it sucks to up the standards and act a little more military... or you can do what you are supposed to do and get on board and be a part of the change.

Yes, the Airmen that preceded us did a fine job of getting the mission done sitting at their desk, smoking a cigarrete, with a cup of coffee resting on their beer gut (unless it was after 1500, then it was a beer). No one is saying they didn't... we also had twice as many people back then, so recruiting standards were low, retention was high, and everyone was living fat, dumb, and happy in the "chair force." Fast forward to today... we are 1/2 the force we used to be, we actually deploy, we are doing the work of the 3 people that used to work along side us, and the culture as a whole has started paying more attention to fitness... and the Air Force has evolved along with society.

And yes, I have no doubt the fact the we interact much more with our sister services than we used to very much played a part in the fitness evolution... when we started sending more and more of our Airmen into joint units, and we actually started integrating into Army units, and working with Marines, our lazyness was obvious and made our service as a whole look bad... validating the chair force stereotype...

Heritage is great. Respecting those who came before us and the amazing job they did is all good. But evolution is natural, biologically and organizationally. Fail to evolve and you cease to exist.

[smarg]

If the USAF is headed to this Nazi-Army-Marine type garbage, it'll last for about a year, until the IG complaints against the senior officers by the snitches for failing the tests gets so great that they say "enough" and we'll be back where we started, which is where we needed to stay in the forst place.

My $.02

[smarg]

If the USAF is headed to this Nazi-Army-Marine type garbage, it'll last for about a year, until the IG complaints against the senior officers by the snitches for failing the tests gets so great that they say "enough" and we'll be back where we started, which is where we needed to stay in the first place.

My $.02

[WILDJOKER5]

Yeah, gotta love the lower the standards method of doing things. This is not an opinion based exam or rating. Are you fat? Can you run around this time? Are you strong enough to push yourseld off the ground so many time? What can you complain to the IG about?

Sounds like someone supports the fatties.

We cant be a marshmellow type force.

I have seen a guy who got put on the fat boy program as soon as he got to the base in Korea. He gained weight. He had the packets of 100 cal snack accross his desk. He said they were only 100 cal so he could eat them. He was eating about 14 a day. On his 4th retest, they got him to pass by measuring his waist and neck for the BMI. I walk into the BX and I look at him, I think he is smiling at me. Second glance I see it is his turkey neck as he is looking down. How the hell did he get to pass? Lowering the standard, he should have got the boot.

[lookinfor2012]

On the surface, the program might look a little much. But, I like it.

I'm someone who couldn't run the whole 1.5 miles the first time I took the test. I walked 3 times during the course of the 14:48 it took me to get finished. Luckily, for me, I have a small waist, and that saved me. I scored an 82 or something like that. I continued to run the 1.5 miles in 14-ish minutes and ran it in 14:24 around Christmas time my third time taking the test.

I deployed a couple of weeks later, worked out nearly every day and was eventually running 4 miles every day (on the treadmill -- it was Djibouti -- the hottest place I've ever been.) I dropped 20 pounds, came back and continued to run. I got pregnant. I ran through my 34th week of pregnancy. I was exempt from testing for 6 months after I had my son. So, I tested 6 months and 1 day after giving birth and scored a 96. I was 20 seconds from maxing the run at 12:14. I continued running and was able to run the loop around the base 6.5 miles a few times before "deploying" again.

This time, I let myself slide, got pregnant again and am now 6 months along. I'm not running like I was and I know I'll struggle in January, after I have my second baby. To combat that, I'm resigned to running a half marathon in March so I'll have something to get off the couch for.

I tell you all of this because I've never been a runner, but I made a choice to get with the program and it's paid off for me in weight, health, stamina and confidence.

The fact that we are FIVE years into this program and people, by the bucket loads, are still failing this test, is amazing to me. Yesterday, in my husband's squadron, FIVE people failed their test. FIVE. Some were SNCOs. As a SNCO myself, I find that ridiculous and embarrassing.

If you think it's not really about lifestyle changes, then you need to get off the couch. I'm in public affairs -- a poster AFSC for the chair force, right? Well, we're deploying like mad -- and not just to sit behind desks. Most of our Airmen are outside the wire daily. We're trying to figure out a balance to keep our NCOs and officers from going to a 1:1 dwell. This isn't going to change, at least for us, for quite some time.

OK, off my soapbox, but one last thought ...

I do think your commander is going to have to adjust again, however. Because according to the CSAF, EVERYONE will be taking their tests twice a year.

[CrustySMSgt]

On the surface, the program might look a little much. But, I like it.

I'm someone who couldn't run the whole 1.5 miles the first time I took the test. I walked 3 times during the course of the 14:48 it took me to get finished. Luckily, for me, I have a small waist, and that saved me. I scored an 82 or something like that. I continued to run the 1.5 miles in 14-ish minutes and ran it in 14:24 around Christmas time my third time taking the test.

I deployed a couple of weeks later, worked out nearly every day and was eventually running 4 miles every day (on the treadmill -- it was Djibouti -- the hottest place I've ever been.) I dropped 20 pounds, came back and continued to run. I got pregnant. I ran through my 34th week of pregnancy. I was exempt from testing for 6 months after I had my son. So, I tested 6 months and 1 day after giving birth and scored a 96. I was 20 seconds from maxing the run at 12:14. I continued running and was able to run the loop around the base 6.5 miles a few times before "deploying" again.

This time, I let myself slide, got pregnant again and am now 6 months along. I'm not running like I was and I know I'll struggle in January, after I have my second baby. To combat that, I'm resigned to running a half marathon in March so I'll have something to get off the couch for.

I tell you all of this because I've never been a runner, but I made a choice to get with the program and it's paid off for me in weight, health, stamina and confidence.

The fact that we are FIVE years into this program and people, by the bucket loads, are still failing this test, is amazing to me. Yesterday, in my husband's squadron, FIVE people failed their test. FIVE. Some were SNCOs. As a SNCO myself, I find that ridiculous and embarrassing.

If you think it's not really about lifestyle changes, then you need to get off the couch. I'm in public affairs -- a poster AFSC for the chair force, right? Well, we're deploying like mad -- and not just to sit behind desks. Most of our Airmen are outside the wire daily. We're trying to figure out a balance to keep our NCOs and officers from going to a 1:1 dwell. This isn't going to change, at least for us, for quite some time.

OK, off my soapbox, but one last thought ...

I do think your commander is going to have to adjust again, however. Because according to the CSAF, EVERYONE will be taking their tests twice a year.

Great testimonial! Keep up the great work!

[Numrich]

My squadron has a new PT policy that went into effect today. Here are a few of the highlights:

75-75.99: you will take an official PT test every 120 days.
80-89.99: you will take an official PT test every 180 days.
90-100: you will take an official PT test once a year.
If you fail a test, you will re-test on Day 42. 90 days is no longer an option.
Once you pass following a failure, you will take an official test every 90 days until you have 4 consecutive passing scores.

This is not new, we had a similar policy in 2007 after having the most fails and profiles on base, drove allot of retirements and IG complaints against the CC. The complaints were primarily for the mandatory PT program at 0600 MWF for everyone who is 75 & less. Also included were people who didn’t present the proper military image. No exceptions. They even had a PT program for the waiver crowd. This program was painful and word got out. It really tied your hands. I have to admit that it worked, people worked their tail off to get off the program. We even had other units joining them.

This policy is fine, the AF needs to play hard ball on some issues and this is just one of them.

[Measure Man]

Why not try to fight it with an unlawful discrimination complaint?

Basis: lower scoring individuals are being put at increased risk of failure via having an 'off day' since they are being forced to test more often during the year. Adding merit to your argument, the low scorers are also being subjected to more stress, etc. - possibly because of nothing more than their body composition.

You might not win the case; but we have got to start pushing back if we want these ridiculous changes to the PT program to stop.

Haha...you have no chance of winning any case.

"Low scorers" are not a protected group...so the 'discrimination' is not unlawful...

[Measure Man]

My squadron has a new PT policy that went into effect today. Here are a few of the highlights:

75-75.99: you will take an official PT test every 120 days.
80-89.99: you will take an official PT test every 180 days.
90-100: you will take an official PT test once a year.
If you fail a test, you will re-test on Day 42. 90 days is no longer an option.
Once you pass following a failure, you will take an official test every 90 days until you have 4 consecutive passing scores.

It was approved by the HAWC and reviewed by the Legal office. Bottom line from both: Physical fitness is the commander's program and responsibility. As long as the commander stays within the confines of the AFI, he/she can make it as stringent as they want.

I expected to see stricter standards once the new AFI was released, but this one caught me off-guard. What are your thoughts?

I don't think it's a bad idea for the shorter test cycle...Seems like a huge manpower drain though.

BTW...what happens to people scoring 76-79.99?

[MACHINE666]

We can go all the way back to the beginning of time and ask ourselves why we ever changed from wearing loincloths and clubbing our opponents if you think it'll help... but the fact is, we are an evolving service. You can bitch moan about how much it sucks to up the standards and act a little more military... or you can do what you are supposed to do and get on board and be a part of the change.

Yes, the Airmen that preceded us did a fine job of getting the mission done sitting at their desk, smoking a cigarrete, with a cup of coffee resting on their beer gut (unless it was after 1500, then it was a beer). No one is saying they didn't... we also had twice as many people back then, so recruiting standards were low, retention was high, and everyone was living fat, dumb, and happy in the "chair force." Fast forward to today... we are 1/2 the force we used to be, we actually deploy, we are doing the work of the 3 people that used to work along side us, and the culture as a whole has started paying more attention to fitness... and the Air Force has evolved along with society.

And yes, I have no doubt the fact the we interact much more with our sister services than we used to very much played a part in the fitness evolution... when we started sending more and more of our Airmen into joint units, and we actually started integrating into Army units, and working with Marines, our lazyness was obvious and made our service as a whole look bad... validating the chair force stereotype...

Heritage is great. Respecting those who came before us and the amazing job they did is all good. But evolution is natural, biologically and organizationally. Fail to evolve and you cease to exist.

Well you can call us 'lazy' because we fought with our brains and not with our brawn, like some dumb football jock or soccer hooligan. Yes, we are evolving into more like our sister services everyday.

Heh. That should be our fitness motto. "Turning nerds into big dumb jocks" - I'll claim you as the inspiration for the idea but I want it copyrighted. Thankfully I can retire soon enough and put this whole lifestyle behind me once and for all.

[WILDJOKER5]

If you think you are a jock for running 1.5 miles, you are in a sad state of delusion. It isnt about turning us into a dedede force by making us do PT and be fit, it is so that the people that sit around all day doing nothing arnt dying from heart attacks when deployed to a desert. It is a lifestyle that should go hand and hand with any military. A lot of times our job that equates to a simular job in the Navy, the navy has our technicians beat hands down in the mental aspec.

A PT test last all of what, 30 mins. Are you saying that 30 mins of PT every 120, 180, or 360 will turn you into a jock? Or is the fact that an ORDER has come down for you to stay in "healthy" condition 24/7/365, and now you are going to be held accountable to it, got you in fuss cause that means more time away from WoW, DAOC, dorritos, hot pockets, WH online, or Evercrak?

[MACHINE666]

It's where we're headed Joker, watch and see. Already we have more sports-related injuries and people on profile, but it seems the common sentiment is to 'shake it off and quit whining', like my high school football coach would say. More stringent AFI changes that don't make sense but we're told "to be mission qualified" are exactly a dumb jock move, plain and simple. You can't convince me otherwise - I've done 4 deployments (Gulf War I, Provide Comfort, Operation Southern Watch and Operation Allied Force) and 4 remote assignments in my time. I've spent more time in MOPP and IPE gear than most people will ever experience, even now doing convoy duties. Unless we're gonna be rucking it with the Army or Marines, you cannot convince me that we need to make things stricter.

[MaintChief]

If you think you are a jock for running 1.5 miles, you are in a sad state of delusion. It isnt about turning us into a dedede force by making us do PT and be fit, it is so that the people that sit around all day doing nothing arnt dying from heart attacks when deployed to a desert. It is a lifestyle that should go hand and hand with any military. A lot of times our job that equates to a simular job in the Navy, the navy has our technicians beat hands down in the mental aspec.

A PT test last all of what, 30 mins. Are you saying that 30 mins of PT every 120, 180, or 360 will turn you into a jock? Or is the fact that an ORDER has come down for you to stay in "healthy" condition 24/7/365, and now you are going to be held accountable to it, got you in fuss cause that means more time away from WoW, DAOC, dorritos, hot pockets, WH online, or Evercrak?

Healthy condition? I'd like to see the costs incurred by the USAF and the DOD on the number of sports injuries and injuries caused by PT in the last 5 years. Especially the cost to the VA for Service connected injuries...wanna bet that knees, rotator cuffs, and back injuries are up there?

And having a 32" inch waist does not make you healthy. Endurance and strength does, not speed and looking like a recruiting poster child.

I'm not arguing that we should not be in shape, but this is getting frigging ridiculous.

[WILDJOKER5]

Sports injuries, as in what? PT lead sesions on concrete turning left the entire time? Yeah Dr.s call those PTLs stupid. Or do you mean optional softball, basketball, football, injuries were someone is taking it into their own hands to stay active?

It is not becoming more strict, just keeping people honest. If you see a guy take 3-4 times to pass the test and taking 90 days between each test. Then he passes and lets himself go in the next 11 months to what he was at before the failures, seems stupid to say he is "fit" for duty. Gaining and loosing 20-40 lbs of weight every year or so has been proven very unhealthy. This CC isnt making people run the 3 mile test, or do 80 p/u in 2 mins. These are the guidelines the AF has set out for us all. The bike must have been you best friend if you want it so much. I always loved the people that went to the ergo test, drank a Mt. Dew, smoked 3 cigs, put the nicotine patch on, and then get the 95 score. Next comes in the guy that doesnt drink or smoke who lives at the gym, and fails.

[WILDJOKER5]

Healthy condition? I'd like to see the costs incurred by the USAF and the DOD on the number of sports injuries and injuries caused by PT in the last 5 years. Especially the cost to the VA for Service connected injuries...wanna bet that knees, rotator cuffs, and back injuries are up there?

And having a 32" inch waist does not make you healthy. Endurance and strength does, not speed and looking like a recruiting poster child.

I'm not arguing that we should not be in shape, but this is getting frigging ridiculous.

I dont think the 32" waist is good either. I would be hard pressed to get there. I agree that the endurance and strength are the core for health. Weight and hieght should be in there but not in the "BMI" sense. That hurts the guys the work out for strength gain all the muscle.

It is just a very minimal thing we need to do to just pass the test. When I was 39" waist, I had to haul a$$ to get the run time so i could pass. But going to a 34", it is so much easier for me to glide to a passing score. I only changed my eating habbits. I always played sports, but it was the eating that helped me loose weight. Even when I twisted my ankle last year, I was still loosing weight because they way I ate. I sprained it 2 times last year playing softball and then raquetball. Still lost 40 lbs.

[AF_MSgt]

Heavy handed tactics?!? The Commander is merely ensuring they meet standards. We have proven time & time again, with everything we do... have a program with standards that aren't enforced, and people will fail to meet the standard. For years we've pussy-footed around with the PT program, with a good game being talked at all levels about how it is designed to be a lifestyle, not just a program revolving around testing. But have most units/Airmen really come very far from the once a year run/bike test? Nope... we dick around for 10 months, kick ourselves in the ass for 2 months, pass the test, and go right back to normal.

Do we need wet-dream poster boys? No... but you can't swing a dead cat without hitting someone with a bottom blouse button that is about to blow or a flightsuit about to bust at the seams.

Expecting everyone to meet a minimum standard of 75 is FAR from going overboard... and "motivating" those who are on the bubble to stay on the treadmill for an extra 10 minutes is the job of supervisors at all levels, to ensure their Airmen are set up for success... even if it is themselves we are protecting them against.

Until you put teeth in a program, people will continue to ignore it.

Very well said. I couldn't agree more!

[AF_MSgt]

BTW...what happens to people scoring 76-79.99?

Yikes! Thanks for pointing that out. I went back and edited my original post.

[VFFSSGT]

My squadron has a new PT policy that went into effect today. Here are a few of the highlights:

75-79.99: you will take an official PT test every 120 days.
80-89.99: you will take an official PT test every 180 days.
90-100: you will take an official PT test once a year.
If you fail a test, you will re-test on Day 42. 90 days is no longer an option.
Once you pass following a failure, you will take an official test every 90 days until you have 4 consecutive passing scores.

It was approved by the HAWC and reviewed by the Legal office. Bottom line from both: Physical fitness is the commander's program and responsibility. As long as the commander stays within the confines of the AFI, he/she can make it as stringent as they want.

I expected to see stricter standards once the new AFI was released, but this one caught me off-guard. What are your thoughts?

I do believe staying on the failures is somewhat a good idea (its basically babysitting though, which I oppose, like giving CDC failures supervised study), but the various testing patterns based on score is ridiculous. Passing is passing and no additional testing is going to give me an incentive to improve my score. The incentive of a day off has not motivated me to run faster; another test most certainly isn't.

I have been consistent mid 80's since the inception of the program. On the other hand, I know an individual who has failed all but one test (which was rubber stamped through another PTL) but is still in the AF and was allowed to promote from SrA to SSgt. (He has taken like 12 test because of all the failures)

Why should I have to test more simply because my score is in the mid-80's rather than a 90 or above? I have nothing against PT, I am simply just not an avid runner; never have been and never will be. (I am one of those that can pass on my waist score alone...<sarcasm - but you get the point>) Having to take an extra test a year is not going to hurt my feelings, I get paid the same regardless. It will simply put addition burdens on the PTL’s and work centers.

What would give me an incentive is for the Air Force to put its money where its mouth is and get us on good quality running tracks (the rubberized ones) rather than asphalt and concrete, expanded fitness centers, routines approved by doctors and physical therapist, realize different people perform differently no matter how much they work out, put out and/or punish those who do fail, etc. Score added in with promotion score would also give an incentive to improve the score.

Control, increased regulation, babysitting, etc. like this commander is doing is only going to bring people down and cause a loss of motivation. His intentions may be true and real but his methods are flawed.

[BigBaze]

Healthy condition? I'd like to see the costs incurred by the USAF and the DOD on the number of sports injuries and injuries caused by PT in the last 5 years. Especially the cost to the VA for Service connected injuries...wanna bet that knees, rotator cuffs, and back injuries are up there?

And having a 32" inch waist does not make you healthy. Endurance and strength does, not speed and looking like a recruiting poster child.

I'm not arguing that we should not be in shape, but this is getting frigging ridiculous.


I am all for PT and being in shape, but I agree, get rid of the ridiculous waist measurement and put everyone on a level playing field. I am so sick and tired of watching the people who are just genetically skinny go out there do their situps and pushups and walk the mile and a half and score an 80. If they really want us to be fit to fight, put me and my 6'5 muscular frame and my 77 PT score in a ring for 1 minute with one of those kids with a 95 score and a 29" waist and I'll show you who's fit to fight!:) But seriously, do away with the waist measurement, noone else does it...even the AF Academy if I am correct. On a lighter note, not one day after our wing change of command, the signs in the gym went down that had said everyone had to be in PT gear with it tucked in, and people in PT gear had priority on all the equipment, wow, cooler heads have prevailed..

[CrustySMSgt]

Healthy condition? I'd like to see the costs incurred by the USAF and the DOD on the number of sports injuries and injuries caused by PT in the last 5 years. Especially the cost to the VA for Service connected injuries...wanna bet that knees, rotator cuffs, and back injuries are up there?


Do you have data to back up this claim, or is it just your speculation? My observations have been just the opposite. There are far fewer people with "random" back problems... me included; I used to have chronic back pain back in the day when I did little if no PT... now, it isn't an issue. PT reduces stress, prevents illness, and improves general health... unless of course you can't get over pissing & moaning about it and your own attitude counteracts any good that comes out of it.

30 min of cardio and minimal strength training 3 times a week isn't going to destroy anyone's body...

[WILDJOKER5]

Unless they are running on a tennis ball court going left every turn. That will destroy a knee or two.

[WILDJOKER5]

Why should I have to test more simply because my score is in the mid-80's rather than a 90 or above? I have nothing against PT, I am simply just not an avid runner; never have been and never will be. (I am one of those that can pass on my waist score alone...<sarcasm - but you get the point>) Having to take an extra test a year is not going to hurt my feelings, I get paid the same regardless. It will simply put addition burdens on the PTL’s and work centers. .
Agree, I run for a 75, or if I run first, I push up for a 75. It doesnt matter to me when it is a pass/fail concept. Not even having to do the test more often. All that will do is keep me in running shape.

What would give me an incentive is for the Air Force to put its money where its mouth is and get us on good quality running tracks (the rubberized ones) rather than asphalt and concrete, expanded fitness centers, routines approved by doctors and physical therapist, realize different people perform differently no matter how much they work out, put out and/or punish those who do fail, etc. Score added in with promotion score would also give an incentive to improve the score. .
Agree with the nice tracks or some good road tracks so that i dont get board running in circles.
Agree that just running is not going to get me in shape cause it doesnt keep me interested enough to try harder. Games and sports get my intrest and my heart will beat harder for longer that way. Now I will do runs once a week because even though it bores the crap out of me, you need it to get better running long distance.
Dissagree about the promotion aspect, unless they can make it even for everyone. Someone that weighs 140lbs struggling on the 50 push ups does not come close to the 220 lb guy strugling at 50 reps. Everytime I have done the test either the with the 39" waist or the 34" waist, I can max the sit ups in 45 secs. I have seen the 29" waist guy struggle to do 40, is he more fit?

Control, increased regulation, babysitting, etc. like this commander is doing is only going to bring people down and cause a loss of motivation. His intentions may be true and real but his methods are flawed.

It is going to hold people that barely can pass accountable.

[VFFSSGT]

Do you have data to back up this claim, or is it just your speculation? My observations have been just the opposite. There are far fewer people with "random" back problems... me included; I used to have chronic back pain back in the day when I did little if no PT... now, it isn't an issue. PT reduces stress, prevents illness, and improves general health... unless of course you can't get over pissing & moaning about it and your own attitude counteracts any good that comes out of it.

30 min of cardio and minimal strength training 3 times a week isn't going to destroy anyone's body...

I would say it is at the least a reasonable suspicion and I believe it would be beneficial to study. I have been to see a physical therapist twice for mild injuries since the inception of this program and I am still in my 20's... :rolleyes: One, I already knew running on asphalt and concrete is bad for you. Two, I was told many routines the squadrons are performing are not recommended or are bad for you. I was also informed pre- an post-stretching is not properly done and many of the "normal" stretches we do are not sufficient.

And now, the HAWC in PACAF is requiring a lock out of the arms... :rolleyes:

[WILDJOKER5]

Yes - really serious. I usually get in the low 80s, but am nervous about taking tests: and I know plenty of people who are worse than me about it. I am in a terrible state of mind for at least a month before the PT test, even if I am practicing it every month beforehand on my own (which I do). In PACAF, we have assclown HAWC monitors who are being stupid about how they enforce PT test standards. I am really worried that I will fail the test b/c of something stupid (e.g. my arm slipping off of my chest) and that my career will be affected by some silly nonsense. So, maybe you are better about taking tests like this w/ confidence, but just keep in mind that not all others are quite as fortunate! ;)

Well, this brings me to the next point, if a test that you cant forget anything gets you frustrated, how are you going to do your job when a war breaks out? If bombs are falling around you when you are down range, what ever you do, how can you concentrate? You worry that a hand off your chest will ruin your carreer? Seriously, this is your main concern in your life, wish i had that easy of a life. Are you in services?

Not trying to be a douche, but do you sometimes forget how to run? It isnt like you are studying for staff.

[VFFSSGT]

...
Dissagree about the promotion aspect, unless they can make it even for everyone. Someone that weighs 140lbs struggling on the 50 push ups does not come close to the 220 lb guy strugling at 50 reps. Everytime I have done the test either the with the 39" waist or the 34" waist, I can max the sit ups in 45 secs. I have seen the 29" waist guy struggle to do 40, is he more fit?


Not necessarily, but it is not much difference in people's memory and studying... Some people have to study harder because their memory and understanding isn't as good as others. Everyone is different in every aspect and we will never all be equal. We all will always have different areas we are good in and struggle in.

But my main hope, is to see them put the money where their mouth is...

[CrustySMSgt]

I would say it is at the least a reasonable suspicion and I believe it should be studied. I have been to see a physical therapist twice for mild injuries since the inception of this program and I am still in my 20's... :rolleyes: One, I already knew running on asphalt and concrete is bad for you. Two, I was told many routines the squadrons are performing are not recommended or bad for you. I was also informed pre- an post-stretching is not properly done and many of the "normal" stretches we do are not sufficient. And now, the HAWC in PACAF is requiring a lock out of the arms... :rolleyes:

Since you are using yourself as an example, I shall too... I am a big guy... 6'3" and around 230. I hover around a 38" waist. I am almost 42 y.o. In the past 2 years I have run 2 marathons, several 1/2 marathons, a lot of shorter races, and countless training miles, ALL on concrete or asphalt. Trust me, I am no runner's world poster child... I plod along at the 9-10 (or more) minute pace. Yet, despite how harmful conrete and asphalt are, and how much force I exert on my joints due to my size, I have zero issues. Yes, we are all different, but I find it VERY hard to believe running a couple miles three times a week is beating down anyone!

And the HAWC is requiring you to abide by the standard in the AFI... to start with your elbows extended, and each repetition you are required to return to the starting position... again, all drama and hype, NOTHING new or PACAF specific. :rolleyes:

[VFFSSGT]

That is all good; however, my two cents comes from a health care professional whose specialty is well in-line with the subject at hand. My issues were muscle related... My argument is stretching and calisthenic focused. However, it is more than well known running on asphalt and concrete causes and puts people at high risk for problems later in life... All I am saying is, programs and routines should have to be reviewed by appropriate health care professionals rather than letting whatever LT or PTL have people perform based on personal preference. And, that injuries and risk of such be studied.

Locking out is bad for you regardless what exercise is being done... One would think this is common knowledge but apparently not; then again, these people get crash courses on fitness and don't have a clue. They are not requiring me to do it, I am not in PACAF... But if it becomes required for where I am at, I will be consulting the physical therapist. Fully extended is not locked out. On a side note relating to the PACAF subject, the only mention in the AFI of terminating the test on sit ups is if you rest in the down position.

[WILDJOKER5]

I am pretty sure that to keep most of injuries from happening, we need proper foot wear. But with only $400 clothing alloance, I can't afford to get all my uniforms in top condition, and buy 4 pairs of shoes through out the year. You should get a new pair every 3-4 months so that the soles are still supporting your arch properly.

[CrustySMSgt]

That is all good; however, my two cents comes from a health care professional who specialty is well in-line with the subject at hand. My issues were muscle related... My argument is stretching and calisthenic focused. However, it is more than well known running on asphalt and concrete causes and puts people at high risk for problems later in life... All I am saying is, programs and routines should have to be reviewed by appropriate health care professionals rather than letting whatever LT or PTL have people perform based on personal preference. And, that injuries and risk of such studied.

Locking out is bad for you regardless what exercise is being done... One would think this is common knowledge but apparently not; then again, these people get crash courses on fitness and don't have a clue. They are not requiring me to do it, I am not in PACAF... But if it becomes required for where I am at, I will be consulting the physical therapist.

I certainly won't argue that many (most?) Sq PT routines are haphazard at best. There should be time allotted for people to personalize their stretching routine.

As far as the running issue... again, I know eveyone is different... but I also know people find problems where the expect problems to be. Being fat is an illness, being a drunk is an illness, ADD, ADHD... you name it and someone's slapped a label on it and come up with a drug to fix it. If running was so debilitating, how is it that there are so many crazy old people who have run dozens of marathons and still run into their 50s, 60s, and even 70s? Is it because they are super human? More likely it is because they live healthy lifestyles, and exercise regularly. The same applies on a much smaller scale to our PT... live healthy, exercise regularly, and for most, there won't be a problem. Bitch about how much it sucks, hate it the entire time you're doing it, put in minimal effort, and make it a completely negative experience, and yes, you'll probably come up with a reason not to do it. I understand not eveyone enjoys exercise... but not doing it is no longer an option... so you've either gotta suck it up and ride it out until you separate/retire... or find a way to accept it and make the best of it.

[BRUWIN]

I certainly won't argue that many (most?) Sq PT routines are haphazard at best. There should be time allotted for people to personalize their stretching routine.

As far as the running issue... again, I know eveyone is different... but I also know people find problems where the expect problems to be. Being fat is an illness, being a drunk is an illness, ADD, ADHD... you name it and someone's slapped a label on it and come up with a drug to fix it. If running was so debilitating, how is it that there are so many crazy old people who have run dozens of marathons and still run into their 50s, 60s, and even 70s? Is it because they are super human? More likely it is because they live healthy lifestyles, and exercise regularly. The same applies on a much smaller scale to our PT... live healthy, exercise regularly, and for most, there won't be a problem. Bitch about how much it sucks, hate it the entire time you're doing it, put in minimal effort, and make it a completely negative experience, and yes, you'll probably come up with a reason not to do it. I understand not eveyone enjoys exercise... but not doing it is no longer an option... so you've either gotta suck it up and ride it out until you separate/retire... or find a way to accept it and make the best of it.


I think running ahould be replaced with jumping jacks. 50 Jumping jacks and you max out that portion. Man what I wouldn't pay to be the CMSAF on this issue.

[VFFSSGT]

I certainly won't argue that many (most?) Sq PT routines are haphazard at best. There should be time allotted for people to personalize their stretching routine.

As far as the running issue... again, I know eveyone is different... but I also know people find problems where the expect problems to be. Being fat is an illness, being a drunk is an illness, ADD, ADHD... you name it and someone's slapped a label on it and come up with a drug to fix it. If running was so debilitating, how is it that there are so many crazy old people who have run dozens of marathons and still run into their 50s, 60s, and even 70s? Is it because they are super human? More likely it is because they live healthy lifestyles, and exercise regularly. The same applies on a much smaller scale to our PT... live healthy, exercise regularly, and for most, there won't be a problem. Bitch about how much it sucks, hate it the entire time you're doing it, put in minimal effort, and make it a completely negative experience, and yes, you'll probably come up with a reason not to do it. I understand not eveyone enjoys exercise... but not doing it is no longer an option... so you've either gotta suck it up and ride it out until you separate/retire... or find a way to accept it and make the best of it.

I am not trying to find a problem or making a problem of the running... Just stating a fact and that the AF could put some money into an issue they consider very important, but short shorts, wind pants making "excessive" noise, and flat screen televisions are seemingly more important than crappy fitness equipment (gyms, trails, tracks, etc). I am not claiming or suggesting the running caused my problems or any of the PT did. What I am saying is the physical therapist suggested likely causes, which were improper and insufficient stretching performed at unit pt and some of the calisthenics performed are bad, not suggested, increase risk, etc... I do what I am suppose to and what is asked, what happens to me, happens to me. But, I am not going to overly concern myself with putting forth effort to improve in a program that I know and have been told by a health care professional is not all that beneficial to you, especially when I more than meet the standard and have had a consistent mid 80s since the inception of the program. And even more especially when I have seen peers repeatedly fail and absolutely nothing happens to them but additional babysitting...

[CrustySMSgt]

I think running ahould be replaced with jumping jacks. 50 Jumping jacks and you max out that portion. Man what I wouldn't pay to be the CMSAF on this issue.

I heard they are in the final stages of coming up with our new PT program using the Wii! That'll be sweet!

[BRUWIN]

I heard they are in the final stages of coming up with our new PT program using the Wii! That'll be sweet!

LOL......I'll be a PT mo-fo when that day comes.

[LOAL-D]

Can we do a virtual PT? PT through CBT? How fast can you put together a 50 slide powerpoint presentation?

[smarg]

Can we do a virtual PT? PT through CBT? How fast can you put together a 50 slide powerpoint presentation?

:D :D :D:D

[Silver Fox]

Ours is one of the few things I like in our squadron, granted, i've never gotten below an 85 on a PT Test, but our chief put it best:

"I'm not here to humiliate you or run you into the ground, I'm just asking you to meet the standard. That's it. I don't care if you get a 95 or a 75. Granted, a 95 would be nice, but as long as you're at the AIR FORCE standard, that's good enough for me.

[BRAVO10000]

Since you are using yourself as an example, I shall too... I am a big guy... 6'3" and around 230. I hover around a 38" waist. I am almost 42 y.o. In the past 2 years I have run 2 marathons, several 1/2 marathons, a lot of shorter races, and countless training miles, ALL on concrete or asphalt. Trust me, I am no runner's world poster child... I plod along at the 9-10 (or more) minute pace. Yet, despite how harmful conrete and asphalt are, and how much force I exert on my joints due to my size, I have zero issues. Yes, we are all different, but I find it VERY hard to believe running a couple miles three times a week is beating down anyone!

And the HAWC is requiring you to abide by the standard in the AFI... to start with your elbows extended, and each repetition you are required to return to the starting position... again, all drama and hype, NOTHING new or PACAF specific. :rolleyes:

Crusty - we've agreed on every issue that I have read, and up to about 5 years ago I would have agreed with you still. But our HAWC stated/briefed at a Top 3 "Warrior Run" (barf) that sports-related injuries are up 130% across the Air Force.

I ran 2-3 miles daily prior to entering the AF, and had a solid 6 minute mile. But that was before I "became a man" and got some of the weight associated with it. I went from being 5'10/160 to 200 pounds over the course of 23 years. A lot of that weight can be attributed to my 20s when I got into weightlifting for a while. You know what the AF PT program was like then, and seeing a runner on base was pretty damn rare. I had no idea how hard it would be to lose that weight. Anyhoo...that obviously puts me over my max.

So - several yeasr ago, as the AF began pushing the PT policy, I decided that I needed to get out and train. Just run. I was less concerned with losing weight and more concrned with getting back into running shape. Well, first came the shin splints thanks to the brick sidewalks, hills, my fat ass and my bowed legs. Next came the back pain...turned out I had osteoarthritis in my lumbar (it's hell getting old, isn't it? I'll be 42 in July). That one's double jeopardy, since it seriously hampers my flexibility and makes doing crunches...err, uncomfortable. Per my physical therapists recomendation, I tried not running so much and spent time on the cross-trainers, treadmills, and anything else low impact. I'm not talking about the magazine-reading variety of a workout. 5 days a week didn't do anything to improve my run, although my cardio did get much stronger, I am less stressed and I sleep better. The improvement just comes too slowly. I can do sprints and I can do interval training, but that hasn't helped my run time much.

But I've been at it for 6 years...gues what? I still weigh 200 pounds (although that weight has shifted significantly), still sound like someone walking on bubble wrap when I try to pick up my 2 year old, and still can't manage a flight of steps for at LEAST 10 minutes after waking up in the morning. I have to be honest; I am worried about the effects that I'll feel in 20 more years. I'm equally concerned about the frustration I feel from this now. It SUCKS to be constantly worried about this, and to have the rest of the AF deem you unworthy when you are putting in a real effort. But it sucks SO MUCH MORE to be on a profile...it is just a license for people to generalize/stigmatize and dick with you.

[Silver Fox]

I've never ran a marathon, but I've run 18 miles at about a 10 - 11 mph pace. That's not STELLAR by any means, but it's healthy, and at 6' even and 175 pounds with a 29" waist (hate me all you like...) I have no problems with the PT Test.

When I was younger, I weighed about 140lbs. and had a 28" waist, so almost 40 pounds later, I've only grown outward by 1"

[Angry Irishman]

Well it's a great idea..but....

I'm already working 70 plus hours a week and my airmen are working about as many hours. I tell you what, when senior leadership decides to take their heads out of the sand and address the fact that people are not getting adequate time to work out...they fix it....then I'm on board with this idea. If we want PT standards like the Marines then we will make PT part of every duty day as organizational PT. We will stop crucifying people that aren't quite soldiers yet and give them the time to do PT. I don't want to hear it's everyone's own responsibility to do PT on their time....its CRAP and unrealistic. When I see equal opportunities across every career field I'm on board with this PT fanaticism. I've learned over the years that one squadron's definition of short manned doesn't usually match the next squadron's. One team, one fight, my ass.

We can't run this Air Force like a company no matter how much we try. Yea, this PT thing has been ramping up since the early 2000s but so have the manpower cuts, dumb shit taskers and deployments.

The Air Force is running more and more like some regime populated with the brainwashed and those willing to do anything to get the next stripe. I'm sure all of this emphasis on PT will fix our oldest fleet of aircraft in Air Force history or get more manning to fulfill our ever increasing commitments....or not...rant over.

[DogPile12]

If an NCO is denied his retirement pay due to PT failures, what are the chances that someone goes postal in the command section? Is it overdue?

[WILDJOKER5]

OK, I am sick of people making this idiotic program even worse (while screwing their troops in the process), so here you go:

My advice to you is to file an IG complaint against your commander for not following AFI 10-248 and/or initiating an Article 138 complaint based on these arguments:

The IG Complaint w/ AFI 10-248:

(Yes I know the IG allegedly viewed it anyway, but that doesn’t have to stop you from filing a complaint.)

The AFI says this:

3.4. Scheduling. Frequency of FA should be based on the previous fitness score unless earlier assessment is necessary to accommodate the deployments.

3.4.1. Excellent/Good. Test within 12 months.
3.4.2. DELETED
3.4.3. Poor. Test within 90 days, but not during the first 42 days after testing. This time period facilitates lifestyle change and sufficient conditioning time to increase fitness level while preventing injury.
For Reserve members (except AGR), test within 180 days (NLT 1st day of 7th month).

There is no question the above excerpt can be interpreted to mean that a passing score entitles you to test annually (in addition to the more liberal/insane interpretation that your commander is using). In addition, there is no implied gradation of good/excellent testing frequency in the AFI, so I think there is an argument in the fact that adding it is not ‘making things more strict’ – it is rewriting the AFI to make three assessment groups (treated in different ways than prescribed by the AFI) instead of two: “Poor” and “Good/Excellent.”

File the complaint anonymously under the pretense that you PERCEIVE the commander is violating the AFI and roll the dice. You have every right to do this.

The Article 138 Complaint:

Within 180 days after the official launch of the policy (and probably after trying the IG complaint first), explain to your commander in writing (i.e. we’re talking a memorandum – no BS e-mail, etc.) that you feel he/she is unfairly rewarding members of the unit who are performing well on their PT tests via an arbitrary/capricious use of power. Explain you feel that his/her decision is having an adverse affect on unit morale, and that his/her policy is unjust based on the fact that physiological constraints (body composition, waivers, etc. - the 'waivers' part is especially nasty b/c it might be able to be warped into an unlawful discrimination against those w/ a disability complaint...) can prevent everyone from doing well enough on the test to be getting the extra time away from the testing cycle (and having to work as hard throughout the year at PT) – and that, to you, this policy seems like unlawful discrimination and/or arbitrary use of authority. Furthermore, explain that you feel the institution of such a policy will create a sense of injustice regarding the unit program b/c squadron members will be tested differently (greater frequency) than others in the AF - which could potentially have a negative effect on someone's career should they fail under the local, more strict standards (other people in the AF with a similar fitness level might avoid a referral EPR if they are in a more lenient unit where they have more time to prepare for the test). I recommend that before you initiate this process, you conduct further research on how Article 138 works:

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/militarylaw/a/article138.htm (http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/militarylaw/a/article138.htm)

...and of course, have your memorandum reviewed by the ADC before proceeding.

Happy hunting.

There is no violating going on here. You have been in for 10 years, you know the comanders can make policy MORE stringent than the AFI calls for. The AFI for BDU wera says you have to have rank, and name tapes (USAF left side, last name right side). But most most maj com comanders come down and say that you have to have maj com patch. That comander has to provide you with the patch if he wants you to wear it. Then the wing, grp and/or SQs will try to get you to wear their patches. All patches must be provided at the expense of the CC implementing the change per AFI.

These CC are following the AFI to the letter here on how often the can retest you. You could officially be tested every 42 days according to the AFI. Actually, I dont see a min of day between test dates for passing individuals. What rules are they breaking? They arnt telling you to stack POW's up in a pyramid, naked and take pictures of them.

If this is unfair to give people that are usually working hard to score the 90s+, then I guess you should write the Chief of staff that he is being unfair with giving favortism to the people that recieve 5's on their EPRs by giving them more points for promotion. The logic from you will get turned around and everyone will have to do the test 120 days. The people making 90s will still make 90s, get a day off every time, and you will not have skated through having to take the test.

[WILDJOKER5]

Well, I guess you could say if people are testing more, then we can expand the block for EPRs to the 4 blocks, doesnt meet, meets, over achieves, sets the highest standard. If you fail one, you drop a block, fail 2, 2 blocks down, and so forth.

[WILDJOKER5]

It will be just like the complaint that we even started the PT program. "Why are we doing this?" "Why cant we just take the ergo test?" The answer is, it doesnt work. Allowing people to get fat and out of shape for 10 months out of the year just so they can fight to pass in 2 months is not working. It is a bigger stress on your body to go from being 30-40 overweight to barely being able to pass, than to just run and take the freaking test every 120 days. Fluctuation of your weight dramaticly like that causes problems for your heart. Keeping your heart in shape through your life is the best way to go. I could bet a paycheck that we would have fewer fails in the next 5 years with this process than we have had in the past 5 years.

[Measure Man]

I've never ran a marathon, but I've run 18 miles at about a 10 - 11 mph pace. That's not STELLAR by any means, but it's healthy, and at 6' even and 175 pounds with a 29" waist (hate me all you like...) I have no problems with the PT Test.

When I was younger, I weighed about 140lbs. and had a 28" waist, so almost 40 pounds later, I've only grown outward by 1"

10-11 mph is under 6 mins per mile...for 18 miles. It may not be Olympic class...but I'd certainly call that stellar... PT test nothing...but that would put you around a 2:30 marathon I guess. You can compete in the top 10 in most local marathons. Not the big ones that attract world class competition though....

Anyway...back to your regularly scheduled debate...

[WILDJOKER5]

Would you be first to the IG if the base commander found that BK, and the rest of the artery clogging gang AAFES brings in was kicked off base? These I would say are the closest to major culprit to our obese force. Easy accesses to the fatty king and cini-butts for all to get out of shape on.

"Hey, after this intense work out of run/walking 2 miles in 30 mins and complaining the entire way, lets stop off at BK and get quad stack or two for the trip home? And dont forget to KING size the fries and shake for me. But it is ok, I got a Diet coke."

[WILDJOKER5]

Complain all you want, but the law works both ways. It's not my problem that we are now talking about following *other* AFIs and observing laws that don't seem so cool to those who like to abuse their authority or exercise it carelessly - but I think if we are going to start enforcing laws and rules so judiciously (or making up a few new ones along the way, as this commander has done); then let's go all out.
I am not complaining about other AFIs. CC stick with in the guide lines for implamenting OI's for their subordnates. Its a LAWFUL ORDER.

The actions of this commander could possibly be interpreted by some as an arbitrary/capricious use of power; and it is this person's right to file a complaint if he thinks the program is unfair.
Yes, it is their right to complain, but it is also their obligation to follow the lawful orders they have been given.

If you want to use the same process to complain about the EPR system, then great - that's your right as well. Maybe something will finally be done to really fix the EPR system if you do.
There is no complaint about the EPR system. Being in as long as I have, I have even been screwed by the EPRs even during this inflation era. How would I complain if I choose to? Under the guidence of the AFI of how to dispute EPRs. You have a problem with the HAWC stopping your test IF you hand slips off your chest, then complain that the AFI states that it only discounts that 1, ONE, sit up. Use the AFI like the CC is doing.

When you get nervous for these "tests of basic human functions", does that mean you also get nervous and forget how to eat if you have breakfast with the commander? That can kinda be a test. Do you also forget how to piss in a cup for the drug test? Do these situations that are out side the norm of your everyday life cause you to panic? Did you hyperventalate during your beathalizer at MEPs coming in? Forget how to breath?

It took you 15 times to pass your drivers test?

[AGE Guy]

The issue isn't whether PT program is a good idea, but whether it's fair for one commander to do this.

Is it really fair for someone's career to be ended because their commander was too stringent following an AFI? Someone else on the base who fails has a full 9 months to meet standards, while somone in this squadron would only have just over 120 days (at least, in our squadron, they start the paperwork at the 4th failure). I don't know if it's legal, I would guess yes- but I don't agree with it.

Have a real fitness program, where everyone attends, and gets the duty time to do it, and leadership takes an interest in it (by that, I mean leading it for everyone, not just getting on people who are failing) and this ENTIRE issue goes away. There's no more complaining or "new stringent standards" or worrying about how many times a year we test. Let our officers and SNCO's COMMAND us and actually run their program- rather then just making policies and signing letters- and you'll fix the fitness level without jumping through all these hoops.

[WILDJOKER5]

The issue isn't whether PT program is a good idea, but whether it's fair for one commander to do this.

Is it really fair for someone's career to be ended because their commander was too stringent following an AFI? Someone else on the base who fails has a full 9 months to meet standards, while somone in this squadron would only have just over 120 days (at least, in our squadron, they start the paperwork at the 4th failure). I don't know if it's legal, I would guess yes- but I don't agree with it.

Have a real fitness program, where everyone attends, and gets the duty time to do it, and leadership takes an interest in it (by that, I mean leading it for everyone, not just getting on people who are failing) and this ENTIRE issue goes away. There's no more complaining or "new stringent standards" or worrying about how many times a year we test. Let our officers and SNCO's COMMAND us and actually run their program- rather then just making policies and signing letters- and you'll fix the fitness level without jumping through all these hoops.

Wow, really? Who in the AF after 5 years of this program, more than 42 days out of shape? Women get 90 days after prenancy to get back into running shape but that is about it. It doesnt ruin your career if you fail, you just get a mark down only if your EPR is written in the 42 days between tests. This is not a career killer, if you take 120+ days to get back in shape, you alread commited career suicide.

The only people that should be lead in PT are the ones that fail, they have shown they lack integrity to get themselves in shape, or stay in shape. I understand some career fields are worked to bones and should get a exemption to policy letter to allow them a better alternative. We are not like the marines or army, we still have an 8-9 hr work day scheduled. We do PT during work time, not adding 2 hrs to the work day so we can run in unison for 5 miles.

[lookinfor2012]

Wow, really? Who in the AF after 5 years of this program, more than 42 days out of shape? Women get 90 days after prenancy to get back into running shape but that is about it. It doesnt ruin your career if you fail, you just get a mark down only if your EPR is written in the 42 days between tests. This is not a career killer, if you take 120+ days to get back in shape, you alread commited career suicide.

The only people that should be lead in PT are the ones that fail, they have shown they lack integrity to get themselves in shape, or stay in shape. I understand some career fields are worked to bones and should get a exemption to policy letter to allow them a better alternative. We are not like the marines or army, we still have an 8-9 hr work day scheduled. We do PT during work time, not adding 2 hrs to the work day so we can run in unison for 5 miles.


For the record, pregnant females get 180 days to get back in shape and take the PT test. We get 120 days before they can deploy us.

[WILDJOKER5]

Ok, thank you. I was taking a quick stab in the dark and think you deserve every day of recovery.

[VFFSSGT]

For the record, pregnant females get 180 days to get back in shape and take the PT test. We get 120 days before they can deploy us.

So, you can deploy in 4 months but don't have to account for your fitness for 6 months... Something just does not seem right with that time line...

[schwag_guest]

Hmmm....shouldn't all commanders, or anyone for that matter, be interested in doing a good job and getting promoted? Who cares what the CC's motivation is, as long as the initiative serves a real purpose...in which case this one (PT initiative) clearly does.

Well put! Who cares if it fills a bullet on an OPR, as long as there is real impact, unlike crappy PT uniforms or Service Dress, etc etc etc.

[lookinfor2012]

So, you can deploy in 4 months but don't have to account for your fitness for 6 months... Something just does not seem right with that time line...

Hmmm ... that sounds incredibly familiar to what I've said, but I don't want to be *that* pregnant woman complaining. It does seem awfully odd, though.

"You're not fit enough to run 6 laps around the track, do a few pushups and a few crunches, but by goodness, you can goto CST where you'll be part of a humvee rollover, do some exercise to bust down doors and, oh by the way, deploy to Craplakistan where you'll live in body armor and dodge IEDs. Good luck!"

[WILDJOKER5]

lol, that was good lookin.

[DHarris75]

It's funny reading these debates about PT. Everyone who complains about PT is a fat lazy slob who eats at BK every meal and needs to get into shape.

I just ran a 3.3 mile course in 33 minutes. I am by no means speedy - but there were a lot of people coming in well behind me. My 1 1/2 time was 12:24 - which puts me about average with my peers.

So I'm not the guy running 1/2 mile and then stopping to eat a Whopper...and I'd expect the same holds true for the folks on here complaining about this policy.

The bottom line - this policy stinks. Do you have to follow it - YUP. Is it a lawful order - YUP. The issue is: should the system allow CCs to exercise such policies that essentially rewrite the AFI - I say NO. I understand there are a multitude of AFIs that should be open to CC judgement based on his/her local command. If you have a rash of DUIs for instance, you might see a more stringent limitations on drinking. I've seen an entire squadron go "dry" for a period of time.

But when you talk about overarching AF standards - I think the AFI is the AFI. The Chief of Staff has said that a 75 will be the standard. Your condition of employment relies on your ability to score a 75 on a fitness test once every 12 months and that your next fitness test should be based on your last fitness test. So if I score a 75, I shouldn't have to test for a year unless my test will due during a deployment. (I understand that the new AFI might change that requirement...but it's not published yet).

If the AF said you must score a 25 to maintain Weapons Qual - should your local CC be able to DQ you if you don't get a 30 just because he/she feels that 25 isn't enough?

What is next? I don't feel that a 70 is good enough to pass CDCs - I think you need a 85...therefore, in my unit, if you don't score an 85, you will be subject to more stringent guidelines until you achieve that 85. I think you should have to score about a 60 on your SKT to get promoted. So if you get promoted, but scored less than a 60...I think you should have to test 4 times prior to sew on to ensure you continue to meet the same SKT score. If not, you must not be very good at your job.

I also think that a SAT during a UCI or an ORI is not good enough. If your unit scores a SAT - you should have go through the inspection every quarter until you achieve an Outstanding. If not - CC gets fired.

I'm all for PT. I've ran over 10 miles this week in unit PT and haven't walked a step and maintained at least a 10 min mile pace for each mile. I like our unit PT and it's just a natural part of our day. From 0700-0800, we PT and start off with forming up and taking accountability.

It is possible to support PT, be in shape, be a good leader - and still question policies and they way in which the programs run. I love the AF - but I don't follow blindly. I look for ways to improve the AF in as much as I have influence in my circle. As I continue to serve and grow, that circle grows. If you don't question processes - how can anything ever get better. And it's possible to question while still following...but as NCOs, we question upwards...not downwards.

Which brings in another entire topic - ethically speaking...an anonymous forum board - isn't this kind of the same as questioning in front of our Amn at work? Just a thought...brain twister.

[VFFSSGT]

First off, I am with you on pretty much every you said...



What is next? I don't feel that a 70 is good enough to pass CDCs -

Isn't 65 and above passing on CDC's?


Which brings in another entire topic - ethically speaking...an anonymous forum board - isn't this kind of the same as questioning in front of our Amn at work? Just a thought...brain twister.

If you worked in my work center, you wouldn't even be concerned with this. People where I am would have you believe it is normal to let your Airmen run wild and free questioning any order and direction given for whatever reason.

[TRDL]

As far as the running issue... If running was so debilitating, how is it that there are so many crazy old people who have run dozens of marathons and still run into their 50s, 60s, and even 70s? Is it because they are super human? More likely it is because they live healthy lifestyles, and exercise regularly. The same applies on a much smaller scale to our PT... live healthy, exercise regularly, and for most, there won't be a problem...

I would say there's a big difference in the training. My wife consistently ran 5 miles a day before she joined. Due in a large degree to the training we did in tech school, she, amongst others, developed hairline fractures in her shins. She has a hard time running 3 miles now as opposed to the 5 before she started. I, on the other hand, sucked at running and with the same training, dropped about 2 minutes from my mile and a half time. That's all I ever trained for, running a flat mile and a half sprint, so it didn't mess with me in any way.

[WILDJOKER5]

The bottom line - this policy stinks. Do you have to follow it - YUP. Is it a lawful order - YUP. The issue is: should the system allow CCs to exercise such policies that essentially rewrite the AFI - I say NO. I understand there are a multitude of AFIs that should be open to CC judgement based on his/her local command. If you have a rash of DUIs for instance, you might see a more stringent limitations on drinking. I've seen an entire squadron go "dry" for a period of time.

But when you talk about overarching AF standards - I think the AFI is the AFI. The Chief of Staff has said that a 75 will be the standard. Your condition of employment relies on your ability to score a 75 on a fitness test once every 12 months and that your next fitness test should be based on your last fitness test. So if I score a 75, I shouldn't have to test for a year unless my test will due during a deployment. (I understand that the new AFI might change that requirement...but it's not published yet).

If the AF said you must score a 25 to maintain Weapons Qual - should your local CC be able to DQ you if you don't get a 30 just because he/she feels that 25 isn't enough?

What is next? I don't feel that a 70 is good enough to pass CDCs - I think you need a 85...therefore, in my unit, if you don't score an 85, you will be subject to more stringent guidelines until you achieve that 85. I think you should have to score about a 60 on your SKT to get promoted. So if you get promoted, but scored less than a 60...I think you should have to test 4 times prior to sew on to ensure you continue to meet the same SKT score. If not, you must not be very good at your job.

I also think that a SAT during a UCI or an ORI is not good enough. If your unit scores a SAT - you should have go through the inspection every quarter until you achieve an Outstanding. If not - CC gets fired.



There is nothing about raising the requirement that you get 80s. It is to ensure that the ppl skateing with the 75s arent just making themselfs unhealthy and sick trying to loose a bunch of weight 2 months b4 the test, or being slack asses for 10 months because they dont have to run. You still need to score only 75 each time to pass, but to cover the CC @$$, he is making sure you maintaining the 75 level. Is there a complaint about doing the mock tests every month? Usuaully not because if you feel like slacking on that test, you dont get in trouble. Is it a question of integrity here?

[DHarris75]

I don't think it's a question about inegrity...at least from my point of view.

I agree that it the CCs responsibility to ensure that the unit maintains a level of fitness. That everyone maintains the standards set by the AF. Postmodern Amn hit it on the head - the AFI seperates people into two groups - pass/fail. This CC is seperating people into 4 groups - fail, 75-79.99, 80-89.99, and 90-100...and mandates each group treated differently in regards to testing cycles. That goes against the intent of the AFI - as I read it.

I guess, you'd have to put teeth into the Mock Tests. I know for our Mocks that we do, the scores are recorded and the UFPM keeps track of them. CCs can mandate anyone to enroll in FIP or BCIP at any time. If a CC sees that an individual is not up to par based on daily observances during PT or not passing Mocks (or not putting forth effort on Mocks) - then put them on FIP.

But for the official PT test, that has an impact on EPRs and careers - I think the AFI stands as written.

And don't say it doesn't affect your career. If you PT test and fail (even by 1/2 a point) and your EPR is due within the next 42 days, you get an automatic referral...not just a markdown - but a lower overall rating and a referral barring you from testing. If you PT test and fail and you have 90 days prior to your EPR...you go on FIP, retest and can get a firewall 5 (depending of course on your other rated areas). My point - my making someone test more times than the AFI requires could subject them to a higher risk of failing than a counterpart in another unit. I see that as not fair.

I'm all for year round fitness. All for it...and I'm all for twice a year PT tests. But if I get a 75, leave me the F alone...if I get an 80...same thing. If the AFI dictates that I'll test twice a year...than okay by me. But don't make me test 4 times a year because "my unit is better". Motivate me, mandate unit PT, structure it, help me, teach me, coach me, mentor me...and observe my progression. There are a multitude of tools at a CCs disposal to aid the unit in meeting fitness standards - requiring more testing than the AF requires is the "easy, shortcut, lazy" way to do it.

Legal - yes. Right - no.

[WILDJOKER5]

Ok, I see it as keeping people more accountable to get a higher score if they want to. How are we still having failures anyways? The only thing I can assume is that people let them selves go, even with a PT program. This is supposed to stop that from happening. 80's+ can usually do what ever they want and not every have a problem with the test. 75-80 though have an easy time just slacking off a little and then they fail. I have only seen one failure and that was this scenario.

Guy shows up looking like crap in his uniform. Was told to go home(lived on base) and get back looking presentable. Every min he took, he had to do push ups. The problem was, the next day was his PT test and they didnt care. He failed because he couldnt do the push ups.

We have been treating 90's and above with favortism since we started. We give them a day off. Would you be acceptable for everyone just testing every 120 days and still give the 90+ ppl a day off everytime? This will help the barely passers keep up with their fitness and have less chance of failing on an off year. Thus reducing the threat of failing the test. If they are always on the bubble for a test, they cant slack off.

[Outback 1982]

And don't say it doesn't affect your career. If you PT test and fail (even by 1/2 a point) and your EPR is due within the next 42 days, you get an automatic referral...not just a markdown - but a lower overall rating and a referral barring you from testing. If you PT test and fail and you have 90 days prior to your EPR...you go on FIP, retest and can get a firewall 5 (depending of course on your other rated areas). My point - my making someone test more times than the AFI requires could subject them to a higher risk of failing than a counterpart in another unit. I see that as not fair.

From the AF Audit and personal experience. I can tell you this has not been the case. For the most part, commanders and SNCO's turn a blind eye to the issue. Unless the Chief and commander is looking at every single EPR, allot slip past. Many section/CC review for the Commanders and just don’t know the people. Unfortunately they are caught too late, and another 5x PT failure boy or girl, gets pushed along for another year. From my perspective I would say less than 40% are documented at best!!!

[CrustySMSgt]

I don't think it's a question about inegrity...at least from my point of view.


Rember, integrity isn't just about telling the truth... as most people jump right to. It is much more than that.

From the "Little Blue Book"


(1) INTEGRITY FIRST

Integrity is a character trait. It is the willingness to do what is right even when no one is looking. It is the "moral compass" the inner voice; the voice of self-control; the basis for the trust imperative in today's military.

« Integrity is the ability to hold together and properly regulate all of the elements of a personality. A person of integrity, for example, is capable of acting on conviction. A person of integrity can control impulses and appetites.

« But integrity also covers several other moral traits indispensable to national service.

Courage. A person of integrity possesses moral courage and does what is right even if the personal cost is high.

Honesty. Honesty is the hallmark of the military professional because in the military, our word must be our bond. We don't pencil-whip training reports, we don't cover up tech data violations, we don't falsify documents, and we don't write misleading operational readiness messages. The bottom line is we don't lie, and we can't justify any deviation.

Responsibility. No person of integrity is irresponsible; a person of true integrity acknowledges his or her duties and acts accordingly.

Accountability. No person of integrity tries to shift the blame to others or take credit for the work of others; "the buck stops here" says it best.

Justice. A person of integrity practices justice. Those who do similar things must get similar rewards or similar punishments.

Openness. Professionals of integrity encourage a free flow of information within the organization. They seek feedback from all directions to ensure they are fulfilling key responsibilities, and they are never afraid to allow anyone at any time to examine how they do business.

Self-respect. To have integrity also is to respect oneself as a professional and a human being. A person of integrity does not behave in ways that would bring discredit upon himself or the organization to which he belongs.

Humility. A person of integrity grasps and is sobered by the awesome task of defending the Constitution of the United States of America.

Seems like a few of these apply in this situation... self-respect, openess, justice, accountability, responsibility...

[WILDJOKER5]

Thank you crusty.

[LOAL-D]

Wow, Is there a separate USAF PT Forum? If not there should be because it is consuming a lot of time and energy and is obviously having an affect on the force from all perspectives. On the surface, it appears to be simple, here are the rules, follow the rules, fail- here are the consequences.Just wondering after reading many similar threads.

[CrustySMSgt]

it appears to be simple, here are the rules, follow the rules, fail- here are the consequences.

That about sums it up!

[Angry Irishman]

That about sums it up!

Really, it's that simple? Why don't we have a real audit of how many maintenance units are given the time to PT...it should be every day if we want to do it right.

There can't even be a realistic discussion about this topic as everyone is on different playing fields. I don't ever remember in my 20 year career maintenance closed for training or PT.

I'm not attacking any career filed here; I'm just stating the truth. Everyone regardless of career field should have the same opportunities to PT and meet standards. I'm not at all against a PT program I just want it to be ran realistically. Right now, it's just a witch hunt that is driving even more of my junior ranks out.

I have a 60 person section running 3 shifts. Half are gone all the time, 16 are leaving between now and July and I have 3 inbounds....you do the math. Now we are going to PT twice a year and make the test even more of a pain in the ass.

The only standard that has been consistent in this Air Force in the last 10 years is to f**k things up as much as can be by the outgoing CSAF and CMSAF.

Nope...it's not that simple and that statement doesn't about sum it up.

[DHarris75]

I can tell you that PT takes up a lot of our time. Not just on my off time talking about it on here...but also at work talking amongst the unit. PT is front and center in my unit every day.

I agree about the audit - the audit was disturbing. Being in a unit that goes by the book, a strict interpretation of the book, it's kind of discouraging that others are not held to the same standard.

Having said that - the answer is not to knee jerk and make these policies that, while not contradicting the AFI, but at the least restructuring the intent of the AFI. AFI says your next test date is based on your last score and then it gives the timeframes for normal testing. Why would the AFI list all that out if the intent of the AFI was not for you to follow what was written?

The answer is to hold leadership accountable. Not accountable to scores - but accountable to their unit's overall fitness and how they go about leading that front. If your CC is not involved in the PT process to the point that he knows who is doing well and who is not - than that is a problem with that command...not the program.

I applaud this CCs intent...I just question his manner. I just think there are a multitude of other options at the disposal of a CC other than making knee-jerk policies that can have far reaching effects.

And to the point of why do we still have people failing? I think there are several reasons besides JUST laziness.
1) Because there is a mixture of standards across units - CCs interpretations of the AFI. My last unit did 0 PT and there was no real oversight on the tests. My current unit lives/breathes PT and there is a ton of oversight on the PT test. The AFI is written - follow it. No need to make it more stringent...but there is also no excuse for falling short (PT * 3 times a week, etc...)

2) Not everyone is a natural runner. I can run a 12:24, but I am dying. To run that fast is really pushing for me. I got to where I can do it on demand...but it's still moving for me. It's not a stroll. I don't think it's an excuse for failing - but it's just a fact that some people have to work harder than others. Why do people fail classes? We had people failing tests during NCOA. I didn't....I thought it was easy. I didn't study, I didn't prepare for my speeches...I changed topics the morning of a speech. But others in my class were studying, preparing, worrying. Does that make me better? No. Does it make someone better if they can run a PT without any prep or worrying about it but I have to work hard at it? I don't think so.

Again - not an excuse...you have to put in the work - I did. But that's one of many reasons why people still fail...they just aren't naturals.

3) Yes - you have those lazy people that just don't try. But again - it's also in the unit. In my unit, you don't have the luxury of being lazy. We all form up, run accountability, stretch in formation, and we all do PT. We all wait for the last person to finish the run or whatever we are doing that day - we form back up, take accountability, and stretch before being released. If you were lazy when you go here...or if you were bad at PT before you got here...you won't be for long. It's inevitable...you WILL be at PT...you WILL complete the runs...and our CC always goes back (along w/ a few people - Shirt, OICs, NCOICs, Amn) and run with the slower people to the finish line.

That's how a CC maintains a fitness level - it's part of our duty day...just like lunch. It's just there. You don't need knee-jerk policies...you need to promote fitness by, well, promoting it.

[WILDJOKER5]

You have a valid point AI, I am also MX and my shops are always undermaned. Whe have crap for test equipment and no supply to replace most of our 1980s units. Still have found time to get to the gym weather it was time off work or during work. That is just my shop in the MX career field. You could be more of a demand where you have to work 10-12 hrs a day.

MX still doesnt shut down for our trainging days we might have once a quarter, that is funny. Seriously funny cause most weekly training career fields are completly closed off.

[VFFSSGT]

Really, it's that simple? Why don't we have a real audit of how many maintenance units are given the time to PT...it should be every day if we want to do it right.
An audit was done and I do believe it touched on units not doing PT.


There can't even be a realistic discussion about this topic as everyone is on different playing fields. I don't ever remember in my 20 year career maintenance closed for training or PT.
While most in my career field never completely close because of standby, we are able to "close" for PT. However, I am with you on the training thing...Mainly the MPF and like organizations that are open 9-1100 and 13-1500. And I remember seeing this before mandatory PT. Training, an official function, etc. Bottom line, you are there to provide a service; provide the service during normal duty hours like we all work. I will say though getting 10 hours a week for PT on a 40 hour work week seems a little off, but the unit I am in is a general waste of AF resources to begin with so... :rolleyes:


Nope...it's not that simple and that statement doesn't about sum it up.

Generally speaking it does and I do believe exceptions have been noted in previous posts.

[LOAL-D]

Really, it's that simple? Why don't we have a real audit of how many maintenance units are given the time to PT...it should be every day if we want to do it right.

There can't even be a realistic discussion about this topic as everyone is on different playing fields. I don't ever remember in my 20 year career maintenance closed for training or PT.

I'm not attacking any career filed here; I'm just stating the truth. Everyone regardless of career field should have the same opportunities to PT and meet standards. I'm not at all against a PT program I just want it to be ran realistically. Right now, it's just a witch hunt that is driving even more of my junior ranks out.

I have a 60 person section running 3 shifts. Half are gone all the time, 16 are leaving between now and July and I have 3 inbounds....you do the math. Now we are going to PT twice a year and make the test even more of a pain in the ass.

The only standard that has been consistent in this Air Force in the last 10 years is to f**k things up as much as can be by the outgoing CSAF and CMSAF.

Nope...it's not that simple and that statement doesn't about sum it up.

My point in my post,Obviuosly,from I've read here, it is not cut and dried across the spectrum of the whole USAF. This is only an anonymous forum and we cannot solve all the problems here. There have been a lot of good ideas exchanged, but people see the world (AF) through their individual soda straws, that"s understandable.

If this PT thing gets so many folks so fired up and passionate, there must be something rotten about it. Just want to be part of the best , equitable outcome, thanks

[ramprat]

Do AF recruiters explain this program to potental recruits?
Maybe the AF is trying to compete with the marines.
Do they test potential recruits?
Im retired near a major AF base and a lot of females (af) look like pears.
Reading these forums ,makes me think i would never reenlist if i was a first term airman.

[smarg]

ANYTIME there is a change in PT regs you can bet your sweet ass that MX will whine, just like the finest jet engines they fix. :D

[CrustySMSgt]

Really, it's that simple? Why don't we have a real audit of how many maintenance units are given the time to PT...it should be every day if we want to do it right.

There can't even be a realistic discussion about this topic as everyone is on different playing fields. I don't ever remember in my 20 year career maintenance closed for training or PT.

I'm not attacking any career filed here; I'm just stating the truth. Everyone regardless of career field should have the same opportunities to PT and meet standards. I'm not at all against a PT program I just want it to be ran realistically. Right now, it's just a witch hunt that is driving even more of my junior ranks out.

I have a 60 person section running 3 shifts. Half are gone all the time, 16 are leaving between now and July and I have 3 inbounds....you do the math. Now we are going to PT twice a year and make the test even more of a pain in the ass.

The only standard that has been consistent in this Air Force in the last 10 years is to f**k things up as much as can be by the outgoing CSAF and CMSAF.

Nope...it's not that simple and that statement doesn't about sum it up.

The bottom line is, yes, it really is that simple.

However, if you'd have read the entire thread, you'd see that I am absolutely against applying more stringent requirements against units that cannot manage to have the ENTIIRE PT program comply with the AFI. If they aren't providing time to do PT on duty and giving everyone the same opportunity, then they certainly shouldn't bring the heat down and up the ante.

There are many units who just can't make it happen I get that. Every opportunity I get, I ask the question, "If PT is part of our mission/duty, when is it going to be incorperated into the manpower standard and be factored into our manning?" I can never get anyone to answer the question.

Having said that, as has been mentioned numerous times on this subject, this program started 6+ years ago. A fair number of Airmen joined after it was in place, so they don't know anything else. ANd those that have been in that long have had to time get with the program and do what they have to do. You might not like it.. but that doesn't really matter.

I understand some are busier than others... I am married to a maintainer. They have managed to come up with a Sq PT program for her MXS Sq, but of course it is much tougher in her previous AMXS. So unfortunately it is up to the member to find the time to work in PT time on thier own. Sure, that means some sacrafices at times... but after 5 years, it shouldn't be anything new. I'll agree it might not be fair, but it is what it is...

[DogPile12]

Do AF recruiters explain this program to potental recruits?
Maybe the AF is trying to compete with the marines.
Do they test potential recruits?
Im retired near a major AF base and a lot of females (af) look like pears.
Reading these forums ,makes me think i would never reenlist if i was a first term airman.

I ate a pear once.

[bigslam41]

I think the new fitness standards set by your squadron should be implemented by the AF. This would put a lot of the FAT people out of the AF. I am tired of seeing our AF personnel walking around with burger king bags and a 50 inch waist. We are in the military and are expected to support and defend the United States of America. How can we do this if a good portion of our AF is FAT.

[TRDL]

I think the new fitness standards set by your squadron should be implemented by the AF. This would put a lot of the FAT people out of the AF. I am tired of seeing our AF personnel walking around with burger king bags and a 50 inch waist. We are in the military and are expected to support and defend the United States of America. How can we do this if a good portion of our AF is FAT.

Do you have any proof that they have not or could not support and defend? Does an intel weenie who does nothing but sit and look at video feed or pictures, or listen to foreign broadcasts need a 32 inch waist to be capable to complete that task?

How about the guys who are missing limbs that fight to stay in the military. We should kick them out too right? Never mind the fact that while he has a claw for his dominate (read trigger pulling) hand, and therefore will likely never see action again, that claw must obviously prevent him from being any good anywhere else in the force right?

[MaintChief]

Do you have data to back up this claim, or is it just your speculation? My observations have been just the opposite. There are far fewer people with "random" back problems... me included; I used to have chronic back pain back in the day when I did little if no PT... now, it isn't an issue. PT reduces stress, prevents illness, and improves general health... unless of course you can't get over pissing & moaning about it and your own attitude counteracts any good that comes out of it.

30 min of cardio and minimal strength training 3 times a week isn't going to destroy anyone's body...

Crusty, I like you, so I'll take it easy. I never said that this was fact. It is speculation/conjecture. I've seen more profiles since the start of the PT program then in my entire 28 years on AD. Granted, it's apples and oranges in some aspects but I'd really be interested in the numbers.

FYI, I run 3 miles x 3 times a week, also do 2 miles and elliptical on my other 2 days. I don't have a problem with PT, I have a problem with the over the top BS that has come with it.

[BRUWIN]

Do you have any proof that they have not or could not support and defend? Does an intel weenie who does nothing but sit and look at video feed or pictures, or listen to foreign broadcasts need a 32 inch waist to be capable to complete that task?



So what are you saying....intel "weenies" are all fat? Because I'll tell you what....that's not what Isee when i walk around base. And just what the hell do you do for a living?

[sigecaps]

So what are you saying....intel "weenies" are all fat? Because I'll tell you what....that's not what Isee when i walk around base. And just what the hell do you do for a living?

I think what he's saying is that intel doesn't need to be in shape to do their job, especially for those intel billets that never deploy (AOC/NSA/UAS). I would put forward though that we should be held to *some* fitness standard, being that we wear the uniform and are supposed to project a professional military image.

[Angry Irishman]

The bottom line is, yes, it really is that simple.

However, if you'd have read the entire thread, you'd see that I am absolutely against applying more stringent requirements against units that cannot manage to have the ENTIIRE PT program comply with the AFI. If they aren't providing time to do PT on duty and giving everyone the same opportunity, then they certainly shouldn't bring the heat down and up the ante.

There are many units who just can't make it happen I get that. Every opportunity I get, I ask the question, "If PT is part of our mission/duty, when is it going to be incorperated into the manpower standard and be factored into our manning?" I can never get anyone to answer the question.

Having said that, as has been mentioned numerous times on this subject, this program started 6+ years ago. A fair number of Airmen joined after it was in place, so they don't know anything else. ANd those that have been in that long have had to time get with the program and do what they have to do. You might not like it.. but that doesn't really matter.

I understand some are busier than others... I am married to a maintainer. They have managed to come up with a Sq PT program for her MXS Sq, but of course it is much tougher in her previous AMXS. So unfortunately it is up to the member to find the time to work in PT time on thier own. Sure, that means some sacrafices at times... but after 5 years, it shouldn't be anything new. I'll agree it might not be fair, but it is what it is...

Crusty,
You are correct...."it is what it is" in the Air Force right now. It's this over the top, lack of thinking through the entire situation that is driving so many out...top to bottom.

I have 10 SNCOs leaving my unit in 5 months...all retiring. Part of the reason is they do not subscribe to the Nazi like thinking without regard to results of these decisions...this is not limited to the PT program. All that I have talked to say the same thing...if I don't believe it, I'm not going to preach it, I'm with them. I love the Air Force, I just can't continue this line of thinking any longer.

It's that simple.....

[BRUWIN]

I think what he's saying is that intel doesn't need to be in shape to do their job, especially for those intel billets that never deploy (AOC/NSA/UAS). .

I'm in a intel billet and I deploy....and not to the Died either. Mosul, Balad, and Tikrit were a few locations I went last time I was in theater. Why is it people think intel doesn't deploy? We are one of the most deployed career fields in the AF....hence the reason we do six month rotations.

[Angry Irishman]

The bottom line is, yes, it really is that simple.

However, if you'd have read the entire thread, you'd see that I am absolutely against applying more stringent requirements against units that cannot manage to have the ENTIIRE PT program comply with the AFI. If they aren't providing time to do PT on duty and giving everyone the same opportunity, then they certainly shouldn't bring the heat down and up the ante.

There are many units who just can't make it happen I get that. Every opportunity I get, I ask the question, "If PT is part of our mission/duty, when is it going to be incorperated into the manpower standard and be factored into our manning?" I can never get anyone to answer the question.

Having said that, as has been mentioned numerous times on this subject, this program started 6+ years ago. A fair number of Airmen joined after it was in place, so they don't know anything else. ANd those that have been in that long have had to time get with the program and do what they have to do. You might not like it.. but that doesn't really matter.

I understand some are busier than others... I am married to a maintainer. They have managed to come up with a Sq PT program for her MXS Sq, but of course it is much tougher in her previous AMXS. So unfortunately it is up to the member to find the time to work in PT time on thier own. Sure, that means some sacrafices at times... but after 5 years, it shouldn't be anything new. I'll agree it might not be fair, but it is what it is...

Crusty,
You are correct...."it is what it is" in the Air Force right now. It's this over the top, lack of thinking through the entire situation that is driving so many out...top to bottom.

I have 10 SNCOs leaving my unit in 5 months...all retiring. Part of the reason is they do not subscribe to the Nazi like thinking without regard to results of these decisions...this is not limited to the PT program. All that I have talked to say the same thing...if I don't believe it, I'm not going to preach it, I'm with them. I love the Air Force, I just can't continue this line of thinking any longer. It worries me how many young troops are coming to the same conclusions...

It's that simple.....

[sigecaps]

I'm in a intel billet and I deploy....and not to the Died either. Mosul, Balad, and Tikrit where a few locations I went last time I was in theater. Why is it people think intel doesn't deploy? We are one of the most deployed career fields in the AF....hence the reason we do six month rotations.

I've done two 365 tours in four years. I know about the deployments. :P

But there are many intel billets that don't deploy. The 1Ns who work directly for NSA are untouchable. And there's a lot of intel guys who are "deployed" in place. The UAS sensor operators at Creech. The DGS guys. People who are working in a COCOM AOC (aside from CENTCOM's AOC). Etc.

[BRUWIN]

I've done two 365 tours in four years. I know about the deployments. :P

But there are many intel billets that don't deploy. The 1Ns who work directly for NSA are untouchable. And there's a lot of intel guys who are "deployed" in place. The UAS sensor operators at Creech. The DGS guys. People who are working in a COCOM AOC (aside from CENTCOM's AOC). Etc.


Well for OPSEC reasons I won't debate you. I will say that UAS guys do deploy....just not as much as they used too. They still have to T/O and land with line of sight. And your right about DGSs...but they are slowly ponying up for thier turn....finally.

[Capt Alfredo]

I've done two 365 tours in four years. I know about the deployments. :P

But there are many intel billets that don't deploy. The 1Ns who work directly for NSA are untouchable. And there's a lot of intel guys who are "deployed" in place. The UAS sensor operators at Creech. The DGS guys. People who are working in a COCOM AOC (aside from CENTCOM's AOC). Etc.


At one time I would have agreed with you, but in recent years I would just say you're wrong. Those NSA 1Ns are no longer untouchable, just to use one example. The CAOC isn't just manned by AFCENT bodies, either.

[TRDL]

So what are you saying....intel "weenies" are all fat? Because I'll tell you what....that's not what Isee when i walk around base. And just what the hell do you do for a living?

Calm down, I didn't say intel is fat, my wife and I are both 1N's, they wouldn't let either of us deploy, in fact, the only 1Ns I've seen deploy have been flight, and flight that's on draw down. I said it's not necessary
to have a 32" waistline. To be honest, most of my class outta tech were the hardcore PTers, run a couple extra miles after PT and all that.

Mostly it was an argument against the previous, "They're Fat! Kick em out! they obviously can't do anything of worth" post. If you'd prefer, MPF certainly doesn't Need a 32" to support base function, finance doesn't need it, etc.

Yeah it's great to be in shape, but, and I'm sure I've seen it posted elsewhere here, is there any proof that out of shape Airmen can't/don't fulfill their jobs, even deployed?

[BRUWIN]

Calm down, I didn't say intel is fat, my wife and I are both 1N's




Oh...ok....don't gotta yell.

[Combat correspondent]

My squadron has a new PT policy that went into effect today. Here are a few of the highlights:

75-79.99: you will take an official PT test every 120 days.
80-89.99: you will take an official PT test every 180 days.
90-100: you will take an official PT test once a year.
If you fail a test, you will re-test on Day 42. 90 days is no longer an option.
Once you pass following a failure, you will take an official test every 90 days until you have 4 consecutive passing scores.

It was approved by the HAWC and reviewed by the Legal office. Bottom line from both: Physical fitness is the commander's program and responsibility. As long as the commander stays within the confines of the AFI, he/she can make it as stringent as they want.

I expected to see stricter standards once the new AFI was released, but this one caught me off-guard. What are your thoughts?

Sounds like this CC is on the ball. Smart commander!

[Combat correspondent]

I've done two 365 tours in four years. I know about the deployments. :P

But there are many intel billets that don't deploy. The 1Ns who work directly for NSA are untouchable. And there's a lot of intel guys who are "deployed" in place. The UAS sensor operators at Creech. The DGS guys. People who are working in a COCOM AOC (aside from CENTCOM's AOC). Etc.

Intel does deploy.... though I see many have already let you know.

As far as PT....if I keep PTing, I wont be able to keep my Pot-belly Pig look. This look is faddish, you know.

[CMSBROWN]

I think it is awesome. HOOOOOOOOOOOAH!

[Angry Irishman]

I think it is awesome. HOOOOOOOOOOOAH!

For the love of all that is holy....this isn't the Army and I'm not talking about the PT test. It's embarrassing to hear HOOOOAH in person, especially around soldiers.

I'm in the Air Force (it says it right on my shirt), I say yes or no as my basic communicative response. I've noticed this incantation has lessened since Mosely left us; hopefully so will all the Army wanta be thoughts/practices so we can resume our basic Air Force role again....without the brain washing.

Oh, and regarding this commanders PT policy...to use a technical phrase....I think it's poop. The ultimate example of the "one up" syndrome. I'll say it again...give equal time to PT to every career field so this can be discussed on an equal footing...there is something to discuss. Make PT a unit based daily occurrence like the other services...then there is something to discuss.

The Air Force cannot expect Army like results by running this service like a company; especially on a non-level playing field. Standard my blue Air Force ass.

Negative-HOOOOHAAAAW!

[RetiredMSGT]

Well i see nothing has really changed since i retired in 2005. In fact, things seem to have gotten much worse. I bet there is still only one 7-level electrician on the entire nightshift Dover AFB flightline, making it a miracle -like effort to launch airplanes on time. I bet if i was still there, it would take me half a shift to beg, borrow or steal enough people from arount the MX complex to jack a C-5 off the ground for some intermittent landing gear problem. Then, the rest of the shift, try to reassemble the same folks to down-jack the same airplane. Why? Cause A/R shop is undemanned and has a good percentage of the shop, detailed out to someone else doing a different job. I bet the flight chiefs are still making bodies appear from thin air to fill the countless taskings from the CC/shirt/flight chief for SP augies, contractor escort, honor guard, bay orderly, piss monitor etc. etc. infinitim. I bet the Air Force is still loosing people/ downsizing. Looks like most of you can't actually go to the orderly room and talk to a real person anymore, you have to submit your questions over the internet to yet another AF web site, set up to make your life easier (exaggeration). Unless of course, it is to sign for you PT test date or for your piss test, then someone is there to help you. You dont read much about any of that. You read daily about the friggin Air Force PT program. I see where it is an all consuming program now. God help those who have to monitor/manage this program, let alone those of you that have to take the test. Should this program really be the priority now, at this time in our history when we are suppossed to be at war in at least two countries? We need good quality trained and motivated people to perform quality maintenance on highly technical and complicated systems and airframes. We need sufficient numbers of these people who are given appropriate time to do these jobs WITHOUT all of these friggin distractions that you folks put up with. When those conditions are not met, it is a matter of time before nukes are shipped from Minot to Barksdale without anyone knowing about it, or something else like that. Before i retired in 05, every time i thought we couldnt do more with less, we were forced to anyway. I felt it was a matter of time before something bad really happened. The Air Force has come a long way from the days of the 1.5 mile run/weigh- in once a year by everyone's buddy in the orderly room who gives the briefing to the folks before the run that goes something like this: "Everyone will pass today". Not saying that was right, but what we have today is out of control. The way i see it is #3 or #4 on everyone's priority list is the actual performance of their job, by no choice of their own. In my 21 years, I never saw anyone in mx unable to do their job because they were not in good enough physical condition, but i saw plenty of people who truly knew their jobs, throw their hands up in discust and get out because of this program. It wasn't what they signed up for. Regardless of the program they come up with, there will always be people who appear overweight, and i believe this what they really only care about, not everyone's health, as they claim. People in high up places who disagree with this program should start saying so, regardless of their career impact. This means Chiefs too.

[Silver Fox]

blah blah blah I hate Hoooah

Guess you haven't noticed cops have been saying this since their inception, and there's debate as to where it originated.

Granted, I hate people that want to hear HOOOOAH! After everything they say, but I do say Hua when asked to do something, as it's a simple, short response that indicated "Heard. Understood. Acknowledged."

[CrustySMSgt]

but i saw plenty of people who truly knew their jobs, throw their hands up in discust and get out because of this program. It wasn't what they signed up for. Regardless of the program they come up with, there will always be people who appear overweight, and i believe this what they really only care about, not everyone's health.


Ther's the bottom line right there... like it or not, the AF is trying to make the move towards being more MILITARY... And as we all know, change in the AF is SLOW... due in large part to how resistance people are to change... and until all those who "didn't sign up" to be in the "real" military separate, retire, or get on the bandwagon, this will be an issue.

I'll be the first to admit we've got a long way to go before we get this program squared away. I hope to see it happen before I retire... and do all I can to influence the part that is under my control.

One day this won't be an issue... and tomorrow's Airmen will look back at photos of Airmen of the past and laugh at all the fatties the way we do at crazy hair styles and uniforms of the past.

[CrustySMSgt]

Guess you haven't noticed cops have been saying this since their inception, and there's debate as to where it originated.

Granted, I hate people that want to hear HOOOOAH! After everything they say, but I do say Hua when asked to do something, as it's a simple, short response that indicated "Heard. Understood. Acknowledged."

+ 1 hua :D

[RetiredMSGT]

Ther's the bottom line right there... like it or not, the AF is trying to make the move towards being more MILITARY... And as we all know, change in the AF is SLOW... due in large part to how resistance people are to change... and until all those who "didn't sign up" to be in the "real" military separate, retire, or get on the bandwagon, this will be an issue.

I'll be the first to admit we've got a long way to go before we get this program squared away. I hope to see it happen before I retire... and do all I can to influence the part that is under my control.

One day this won't be an issue... and tomorrow's Airmen will look back at photos of Airmen of the past and laugh at all the fatties the way we do at crazy hair styles and uniforms of the past.

I disagree. I believe technical proficiency and job knowledge lend themselves more toward the Air Force being respected more as a military service than having a hard ass PT program producing McPeak-like stick figures. As far as resistance to change, are you kidding? Everyone in the Air Force knows that absolutely nothing stays the same. Change is constant. As soon as you figure something out, the Air Force changes it. Everything goes in circles in the Air Force. You can't stay in the AF without being flexible to change. Any resistance to change is because people are sick of it.

[Silver Fox]

Ther's the bottom line right there... like it or not, the AF is trying to make the move towards being more MILITARY... And as we all know, change in the AF is SLOW... due in large part to how resistance people are to change... and until all those who "didn't sign up" to be in the "real" military separate, retire, or get on the bandwagon, this will be an issue.

I'll be the first to admit we've got a long way to go before we get this program squared away. I hope to see it happen before I retire... and do all I can to influence the part that is under my control.

One day this won't be an issue... and tomorrow's Airmen will look back at photos of Airmen of the past and laugh at all the fatties the way we do at crazy hair styles and uniforms of the past.

Amen to that! The Air Force is possibly the most change resistant organization I've ever worked for. :(
But just the fact that you higher ups see this and recognize it makes me feel better.


...





HUA! ;)

[Angry Irishman]

Guess you haven't noticed cops have been saying this since their inception, and there's debate as to where it originated.

Granted, I hate people that want to hear HOOOOAH! After everything they say, but I do say Hua when asked to do something, as it's a simple, short response that indicated "Heard. Understood. Acknowledged."

I used to play Army man when I was a kid....I didn't say HUA then either. That HUA since cops inception is wishful thinking and just plain fabricated. It's inception is with the Army and most certainly their tradition. What it is to Air Force members is a wanta be impulse. Yes is just as easy to say and portrays just a little more of a sign of intelligence. One reason I'm retiring (besides everything the retired maintainer said) is people don't want to think anymore...they just yell chants and make up AF history.

Really, it's OK to be technically savvy; that's what the Air Force used to be about. Despite what so many choose to believe 99% of the AF doesn't need to be trained and act like soldiers. There is a program called blue to green....jump.

Hap Arnold is rolling in his grave......

[Silver Fox]

That HUA since cops inception is wishful thinking and just plain fabricated.

Actually, it's not. My grandfather was a cop in the transition from the Army Air Force to the United States Air Force.... it may not have come from us (no one really knows... there's plenty of myths) but it was around form the very beginning of the actual USAF, and consequently is a huge part of SF heritage....



It's inception is with the Army and most certainly their tradition.

Where do you think we came from again?

Really, it's OK to be technically savvy; that's what the Air Force used to be about. Despite what so many choose to believe 99% of the AF doesn't need to be trained and act like soldiers. There is a program called blue to green....jump.

Actually 99% seem to agree with you... it's the 01% like me you're taking issue with.


Hap Arnold is rolling in his grave......

Who cares what some dead guy from World War 2 thinks? Your opinion doesn't count if you're dead.

[Angry Irishman]

Ther's the bottom line right there... like it or not, the AF is trying to make the move towards being more MILITARY... And as we all know, change in the AF is SLOW... due in large part to how resistance people are to change... and until all those who "didn't sign up" to be in the "real" military separate, retire, or get on the bandwagon, this will be an issue.

I'll be the first to admit we've got a long way to go before we get this program squared away. I hope to see it happen before I retire... and do all I can to influence the part that is under my control.

One day this won't be an issue... and tomorrow's Airmen will look back at photos of Airmen of the past and laugh at all the fatties the way we do at crazy hair styles and uniforms of the past.

The "real military" according to who...you??

The Air Force has functioned all these years because we have been disciplined with people who are technically savvy, thought outside the box and generally able to make things happen with airplanes, satellites etc. It sure as hell has not been successful based on some PT test.

What people will look back on and say is "remember those want to be Army days"? It will be another phase just like quality Air Force and AFTSO-21. I hope our future NCOs and officers have the ability to rack and stack problems that matter....right now the PT program seems to be on the forefront of priorities. PT is the least of this services problems...especially the way it is being applied.

[Silver Fox]

The "real military" according to who...you??

The Air Force has functioned all these years because we have been disciplined with people who are technically savvy, thought outside the box and generally able to make things happen with airplanes, satellites etc. It sure as hell has not been successful based on some PT test.

What people will look back on and say is "remember those want to be Army days"? It will be another phase just like quality Air Force and AFTSO-21. I hope our future NCOs and officers have the ability to rack and stack problems that matter....right now the PT program seems to be on the forefront of priorities. PT is the least of this services problems...especially the way it is being applied.


More than likely we'll be looking back wearing "U.S. Armed Forces" name tapes with one PT standard across the board (much higher than the current one) going "Man, you remember them Air Force days?"

[Angry Irishman]

Actually, it's not. My grandfather was a cop in the transition from the Army Air Force to the United States Air Force.... it may not have come from us (no one really knows... there's plenty of myths) but it was around form the very beginning of the actual USAF, and consequently is a huge part of SF heritage....



Where do you think we came from again?


Actually 99% seem to agree with you... it's the 01% like me you're taking issue with.


Who cares what some dead guy from World War 2 thinks? Your opinion doesn't count if you're dead.

Where do you think we came from again?

Our mothers.....and we are not in the Army anymore...there is a way you can rectify that problem. Ever time you feel the need to yell HUA (HELP UNDERMANNED ARMY) just look down at your shirt and it will say AIR FORCE.


Actually 99% seem to agree with you... it's the 01% like me you're taking issue with.

Partially agree....train those who really need the Army training. I'm an office bitch who used to be an aircraft mechanic...I don't need this training (I''m with the 99%) . It is fiscally stupid to train (poorly at that) everyone in this manner.....especially when we are not the Army.


Who cares what some dead guy from World War 2 thinks? Your opinion doesn't count if you're dead.[/QUOTE]

Now you are grasping and quite possibly why we have to steal Army traditions while we lose the very few we have.

[Angry Irishman]

More than likely we'll be looking back wearing "U.S. Armed Forces" name tapes with one PT standard across the board (much higher than the current one) going "Man, you remember them Air Force days?"

You my friend, are experiencing enlisting in the AF remorse...you should have seen one of the other recruiters.

Despite what service one enlists you join for a reason. Each service has their unique capabilities/specialties...honestly, go see the Army recruiter ASAP or you'll probably regret it for the remainder of your military career. You don't have to be ashamed of being Air Force...really.

[Silver Fox]

You my friend, are experiencing enlisting in the AF remorse...you should have seen one of the other recruiters.

Despite what service one enlists you join for a reason. Each service has their unique capabilities/specialties...honestly, go see the Army recruiter ASAP or you'll probably regret it for the remainder of your military career. You don't have to be ashamed of being Air Force...really.

You think a joint military isn't inevitable? And what does a desire for a joint military have to do with not liking the Air Force? It's the leanest, most efficient, cost effective, most beneficial to training and war fighting. I see no losers other than those who want to be different for the sake of being different. Those are the same folks who thought of those magnificent cammies we're wearing.

[RetiredMSGT]

I always thought that "HUA" crap was embarrassing when it first reared its ugly head some time in the late 90's, early 00's throughout the AF. It reaks of high ranking ass kissers kissing ass during a meeting with the "big guy" in the Wing conference room. Sounded good at the meeting and then trickled down to subsequent lower ranking ass kissers who also attended the aforementioned meeting. These are the same folks who stand in line at clothing sales on the first day the new uniform goes on sale so they can impress the "big guy" at the earliest chance possible, even though they have a closet full of serviceable BDUs. Then they look down their nose at everyone else who doesnt also have the new ABU. At least lets come up with something original. HUA doesnt cut it. A simple "understood" or "yes sir/maam" would suffice. It has in the past. Starting to ramble. I dont want to sound like a bitter retired AF person, just some things get under my skin. The AF was great to me and my family!

[Angry Irishman]

Well....I hope not. Just like current merging of AFSCs in the AF a service could become a jack of all trades and an expert in none.

I used to be a Seabee back in the day and really liked working with Marines. They used to call us Marines light.

I'm not dogging cops either...I've stood at many gates and posts in my day...even some law enforcement type work occasionally...it's not easy.

Within the AF there are so many different lines of thought about everything from PT to what undermanned really means. That difference in thinking is a weakness...something Marines have but manage to defeat. Every Marine is a rifleman regardless of job...the AF cannot apply the same principles...especially with stubborn old SNCOs like me.

All the services are different...it's really that simple.

[CrustySMSgt]

I disagree. I believe technical proficiency and job knowledge lend themselves more toward the Air Force being respected more as a military service than having a hard ass PT program producing McPeak-like stick figures.

ROFLMMFAO! Hard... that is the funniest thing I've heard in the entire thread. It's a fucking mile & a half and a few pushups/situps... you've got to be shitting me. :rolleyes:

[Silver Fox]

Well....I hope not. Just like current merging of AFSCs in the AF a service could become a jack of all trades and an expert in none.

I used to be a Seabee back in the day and really liked working with Marines. They used to call us Marines light.

I'm not dogging cops either...I've stood at many gates and posts in my day...even some law enforcement type work occasionally...it's not easy.

Within the AF there are so many different lines of thought about everything from PT to what undermanned really means. That difference in thinking is a weakness...something Marines have but manage to defeat. Every Marine is a rifleman regardless of job...the AF cannot apply the same principles...especially with stubborn old SNCOs like me.

All the services are different...it's really that simple.

You go from being for that type of versatility, to against it, to for it, to against it. You sound confused about what you really expect from the Air Force. You say the AF cannot apply the same principles because of stubborn old NCOs like you, are you implying that it is you standing in the way of progress? If so, by all means, retire.



ROFLMMFAO! Hard... that is the funniest thing I've heard in the entire thread. It's a fucking mile & a half and a few pushups/situps... you've got to be shitting me.

Indeed. If they want to see hard they can do the USMC Test... you've gotta do 3 miles in 18 minutes to max it.

[CrustySMSgt]

The "real military" according to who...you??

The Air Force has functioned all these years because we have been disciplined with people who are technically savvy, thought outside the box and generally able to make things happen with airplanes, satellites etc. It sure as hell has not been successful based on some PT test.

What people will look back on and say is "remember those want to be Army days"? It will be another phase just like quality Air Force and AFTSO-21. I hope our future NCOs and officers have the ability to rack and stack problems that matter....right now the PT program seems to be on the forefront of priorities. PT is the least of this services problems...especially the way it is being applied.

THanks for the education... you're right, let's stop making today's Airmen better than we were yesterday. THink of all the money we can save shit-canning tuition assistance... we did just fine as uneducated Airmen. OJT... who needs that BS... just issue those 3-levels a tool box and send them out there to get shit done! Empowering enlisted leaders to work at levels previously reserved for field grade officers... Hap Arnold didn't stand for that shit and neither should we! And this anti-smoking bullshit needs to go while we're at it! I miss trying to work through clouds of smoke. And while we're at it, FUCK BILL GATES... I want my IBM selectric (typewriter to you youngsters!) back!!!

http://www.ben-newman.de/smilie/forum/Rant-Off.gif

[CrustySMSgt]

I dont want to sound like a bitter retired AF person, just some things get under my skin.

Too late :rolleyes:

[BRAVO10000]

Wow - I can't say that I'm on one side of this fence or the other.

Do we need a PT program? Yep, a solid one that keeps us healthy and ready to fly, fight and win. Do we need to pretend like we're the infantry? Nope. I am DAMN proud to be in the Air Force, and I'll say it to a jarhead/grunt/squid's face. I'll politely "hua" in response to those chants, but I don't need it to feel more manly or to boost my motivation - and I don't get all hot and bothered by joint efforts. I don't think for a nanosecond that AF cops created it, although they'll take credit for anything given enough time (just kidding!). ;)

Here's what I found with 30 seconds of research at http://warchronicle.com/us/general/HOOAH.htm:

" Urbandictionary.com claims the term hooah was originally used by the British in the late 1800's in Afghanistan; then, more recently adopted by the United States Army to indicate an affirmative or a pleased response. The book Absolutely American: Culture War at West Point defines huah as “an all-purpose expression”… if you “want to describe a cadet who's very gung-ho, you call them huah”… if you “understand instructions, say huah”… if you “agree with what another cadet just said, murmur huah “. Perhaps the broadest definition I have come across in my research might very well be the best, and even most comical definition. If I had a prize to award, I would give it to The Department of Military Science and Leadership, University of Tennessee who claim HOOAH “refers to or means anything except no.”

So while military experts and personnel alike disagree on the term, spelling, origin and meaning of HUA, huah, hooah , etc., it remains to be widely used throughout the military. Regardless of it's meaning, a common aspect encompasses each of the definitions for this term. The term is an expression of high morale, confidence, motivation and spirit. "

All of those that are STILL talking about a single military branch...we have that. It is called the Department of Defense. The DoD is broken into domains of warfare (hello, cyberspace...okay that is another topic). But if you think we're all going to wear the same uniform and fall under a signle chain of command...uhh, joint doctrine says that airpower should be controlled by an airman. You know...doctrine...the basic TRUTHS of warfare? Give Joint Pub 3, AFDD 1 and AFDD 2 a read and then let's chat. If you don't know what those are...hush your rookie butt up.

I wonder what all the PT zealots that want to model the Army would say if the roles were reversed. Meaning...what if you were in the Army, and they were pushing the academic standard higher? Would you rant if they required your enlisted folks to meet the AF's ASVAB standard? What if they forced everyone to get a 2 year degree regardless of work schedule - would you demand duty time for it? As an NCOIC or Super, would you give up 6-10 man-hours per man, per week in support of that program? Just saying - that "everyone is a rifleman" approach is fine if you vaguely have to know anything else. Would you then eliminate the 11B infantryman because he had no "technical skill"? Think about it. We're already bemoaning the loss of experts at Finance and the MPF, and that is just the beginning.

AngryIrishman and RetiredMSgt are right about one thing in particular. That is that our tradition - the thing that ALWAYS made the AF great - was our technical aptitude and resourcefulness. The Air Force was BUILT on technical ability and were trained "just well enough not to embarrass themselves when moving from one place to another". That's in your PDG, folks, and it is the redeeming characteristic of the Air Force that is at the greatest risk in my opinon.

And Crusty(C)Msgt is right too (except about Bill Gates :mad: )...we do need a PT program. We have some that will rest on their laurels, swill soda and live on fast food in the absence of one. By the same token - WE need to be damn sure that we aren't applying a halo standard over PT scores. Being able to run does NOT make that airman/NCO better at their job (it might not even make them physically fit). It is one of many standards - my disdain is that it has become our gold standard for a quality troop, and that mentality misses the mark. Beyond that, the Air Force needs to ensure that its' program doesn't rid me of my brain trust (I'm in Comm, so I have an entire stable of geeks working for me). Hell, as long as my guys can meet the program, just about everyone should be able to.

The branches of the military are like the positions on a football team. Not everyone is cut out to be a quarterback, and that QB is over his head as a linebacker, and putting the kicker on the offensive line would be a grave mistake. I want a PT program that meets our needs but doesn't keep us from doing our mission. For that to happen, we all need to agree on the point/goal of the program...the Army and Marines have fatties too, but most of those fatties can pass their PT test. If it is image that the AF is concerned with, then they should say so. if it is the cost of medical, then by all means - get rid of tobacco/alcohol sales on bases, rip out the BKs and Anthony's Pizza and ban the office Snacko. Else...stop wasting my damn time, I have too much sh*t to do already.

[JHawkG33K]

BRAVO Bravo!!!!

[BRAVO10000]

You think a joint military isn't inevitable? And what does a desire for a joint military have to do with not liking the Air Force? It's the leanest, most efficient, cost effective, most beneficial to training and war fighting. I see no losers other than those who want to be different for the sake of being different. Those are the same folks who thought of those magnificent cammies we're wearing.

A joint military is not inevitable. It wouldn't be joint if there was a single branch, it would be unified. :rolleyes:

It's easy for people to come to the conclusion that you loathe the AF. Your most recent posts bemoan the PT program, call for offensive ops to take over enemy airfields, and lobby for us to model our allies (whoever that is this week). Not attacking you...just saying. However, your assertions as to the benefits of a single military force with no "flavor" are grossly overstated and assumed. You should really do your homework before making those kind of statements...not that I like the "new cammies" either. I want my starch bottle and kiwi back.

[BRUWIN]

A joint military is not inevitable. It wouldn't be joint if there was a single branch, it would be unified. :rolleyes:

.

Huh...I must admit I never caught that until you pointed it out. Man...am I ever gonna sound smart at the next staff meeting

[WPNS]

Sports injuries, as in what? PT lead sesions on concrete turning left the entire time? Yeah Dr.s call those PTLs stupid. Or do you mean optional softball, basketball, football, injuries were someone is taking it into their own hands to stay active?

It is not becoming more strict, just keeping people honest. If you see a guy take 3-4 times to pass the test and taking 90 days between each test. Then he passes and lets himself go in the next 11 months to what he was at before the failures, seems stupid to say he is "fit" for duty. Gaining and loosing 20-40 lbs of weight every year or so has been proven very unhealthy. This CC isnt making people run the 3 mile test, or do 80 p/u in 2 mins. These are the guidelines the AF has set out for us all. The bike must have been you best friend if you want it so much. I always loved the people that went to the ergo test, drank a Mt. Dew, smoked 3 cigs, put the nicotine patch on, and then get the 95 score. Next comes in the guy that doesnt drink or smoke who lives at the gym, and fails.

What about the fact that DOCTORS tell us that doing sit-ups aren't good for you? we continue to ignore what PROFESSIONALS say, but we listen to hack-hawc personnel or have PTL's that "think" they know what is right, push people psat what they are capable of? We are the AIR FORCE, not the ARMY AIR CORP, we "Fly, Fight and Win" (Luke's motto" not "run around with 60 lb rucksacks on"

[Silver Fox]

A joint military is not inevitable. It wouldn't be joint if there was a single branch, it would be unified. :rolleyes:

Forgive me for not using the proper term. I think my meaning was still clear.


It's easy for people to come to the conclusion that you loathe the AF. Your most recent posts bemoan the PT program,

Actually I think I've only bemoaned those whining about PT.



call for offensive ops to take over enemy airfields,
What does that have to do with hating the AF?


and lobby for us to model our allies (whoever that is this week).

Oh, so Britan, France and Australia haven't been our allies for over 100 years? Hmmm....


Not attacking you...

Except you are, I don't know what it is with people being afraid to say that.


just saying. However, your assertions as to the benefits of a single military force with no "flavor" are grossly overstated and assumed. You should really do your homework before making those kind of statements...not that I like the "new cammies" either. I want my starch bottle and kiwi back.

Who says there'd be no flavor? Is career field pride not enough? For me just carrying a weapon while others don't is enough. I have more esprit-de-corps amongst the cops in other branches of the service then I do amongst the other career fields in the AF.

Also, for those who think that a unified military is NOT inevitable.... just look at the joint basing. Many places will have ONE military commander in charge of entire areas consisting of multiple bases regardless of what branch they fall under. Look at all the unified training taking place. It's just a matter of time. Once all the diehards have retired who think the military is all about "Air Force" "Army" Marines" "Navy" and not "US" and "THEM".... it'll happen.

[WPNS]

I do believe staying on the failures is somewhat a good idea (its basically babysitting though, which I oppose, like giving CDC failures supervised study), but the various testing patterns based on score is ridiculous. Passing is passing and no additional testing is going to give me an incentive to improve my score. The incentive of a day off has not motivated me to run faster; another test most certainly isn't.

I have been consistent mid 80's since the inception of the program. On the other hand, I know an individual who has failed all but one test (which was rubber stamped through another PTL) but is still in the AF and was allowed to promote from SrA to SSgt. (He has taken like 12 test because of all the failures)

Why should I have to test more simply because my score is in the mid-80's rather than a 90 or above? I have nothing against PT, I am simply just not an avid runner; never have been and never will be. (I am one of those that can pass on my waist score alone...<sarcasm - but you get the point>) Having to take an extra test a year is not going to hurt my feelings, I get paid the same regardless. It will simply put addition burdens on the PTL’s and work centers.

What would give me an incentive is for the Air Force to put its money where its mouth is and get us on good quality running tracks (the rubberized ones) rather than asphalt and concrete, expanded fitness centers, routines approved by doctors and physical therapist, realize different people perform differently no matter how much they work out, put out and/or punish those who do fail, etc. Score added in with promotion score would also give an incentive to improve the score.

Control, increased regulation, babysitting, etc. like this commander is doing is only going to bring people down and cause a loss of motivation. His intentions may be true and real but his methods are flawed.

BINGO!!! How about taking a PT test on a road that is.75 miles long, slopes down on the way there and has an incline on the way back!!! Or what about testing on windy days where you feel like God is pushing against you with His hand? Get tests done in an INDOOR controlles climate, not outdoors in July in Arizona, where you do pushups and situps on 200 degree asphalt!!!!

[WPNS]

Quoted by Crusty the clown SNCO

"Being fat is an illness, being a drunk is an illness, ADD, ADHD... you name it and someone's slapped a label on it and come up with a drug to fix it. If running was so debilitating, how is it that there are so many crazy old people who have run dozens of marathons and still run into their 50s, 60s, and even 70s? Is it because they are super human? More likely it is because they live healthy lifestyles, and exercise regularly."


Did you seriously write this??? What about the "old people" that have smoked 2 packs of cigarettes a day for 70 YEARS, or ate McDonalds EVERY DAY are living into their 90's? It's called WE ARE NOT BUILT THE SAME, I'm glad your knees are fine, does that mean everyone in your unit is doing as well as you? NO, so stop being a close-minded SNCO and listen to what is being said.... or retire and go be an AFRETS rep or something..

[Angry Irishman]

THanks for the education... you're right, let's stop making today's Airmen better than we were yesterday. THink of all the money we can save shit-canning tuition assistance... we did just fine as uneducated Airmen. OJT... who needs that BS... just issue those 3-levels a tool box and send them out there to get shit done! Empowering enlisted leaders to work at levels previously reserved for field grade officers... Hap Arnold didn't stand for that shit and neither should we! And this anti-smoking bullshit needs to go while we're at it! I miss trying to work through clouds of smoke. And while we're at it, FUCK BILL GATES... I want my IBM selectric (typewriter to you youngsters!) back!!!

http://www.ben-newman.de/smilie/forum/Rant-Off.gif

We are not disagreeing here....I'm not against PT I'm against the way its implemented. I guess what it boils down to is it's really not the most important thing in the world right now as these threads would have us believe.

And yea I'm one of those bitchy maintenance guys who thinks his folks have it so bad. I'll tell you what, it's a lot easier to ignore the facts than to face them. I'd love for me and my troops to do PT every damn day like I know many on this board have the opportunity to do. Everything is great as long as your able to shut down your organization on a regular basis.

You think PT is progressing this Air Force....wow. I mean its not hurting anything but progressing? Sometimes I think most people are in denial about some real problems or they just have it pretty good at there current jobs.

The lack of manning, experience and modern weapons should be on the forefront of what is being tackled....it's not its PT and fucking new uniforms. It's sound like the Nazi youth movement on this forum sometimes.

[WPNS]

Well it's a great idea..but....

I'm already working 70 plus hours a week and my airmen are working about as many hours. I tell you what, when senior leadership decides to take their heads out of the sand and address the fact that people are not getting adequate time to work out...they fix it....then I'm on board with this idea. If we want PT standards like the Marines then we will make PT part of every duty day as organizational PT. We will stop crucifying people that aren't quite soldiers yet and give them the time to do PT. I don't want to hear it's everyone's own responsibility to do PT on their time....its CRAP and unrealistic. When I see equal opportunities across every career field I'm on board with this PT fanaticism. I've learned over the years that one squadron's definition of short manned doesn't usually match the next squadron's. One team, one fight, my ass.

We can't run this Air Force like a company no matter how much we try. Yea, this PT thing has been ramping up since the early 2000s but so have the manpower cuts, dumb shit taskers and deployments.

The Air Force is running more and more like some regime populated with the brainwashed and those willing to do anything to get the next stripe. I'm sure all of this emphasis on PT will fix our oldest fleet of aircraft in Air Force history or get more manning to fulfill our ever increasing commitments....or not...rant over.

BRAVO *CLAPPING ENTHUSIASTICALLY as Angry Irish leaves the podium*

[BRAVO10000]

I am not inclined to go mining through the posts to see how many times you've said that the standards weren't tough enough, or that the program wasn't administered properluy, or whatever. Word games at this point. With that as an aside, as for the rest - Okay, then - here's an attack. You have absolutely no idea - not a clue - about what you're suggesting.

The AF performing offensive ground op[erations is not one of our DISTINCTIVE CAPABILITIES. Every service component has CORE COMPETENCIES than enable these distinctive capabilites...that is, those functions of warfare that "belong" with a component becuase that component is most able to acheive that function. All of this comes from Joint Doctrine, which steers what we do in a joint warfighting environment. Again, this would be a lot easier if you would have the integrity to learn your craft and do your research before spouting off this nonsense. Hell, it is right on the "company" main page. As much time as you spend online, I would think you had seen this before. http://www.af.mil/main/welcome.asp

Air and Space Superiority : With it, joint forces can dominate enemy operations in all dimensions -- land, sea, air and space.

Global Attack: Because of technological advances, the Air Force can attack anywhere, anytime -- and do so quickly and with greater precision than ever before.

Rapid Global Mobility: Being able to respond quickly and decisively anywhere we're needed is key to maintaining rapid global mobility.

Precision Engagement: The essence lies in the ability to apply selective force against specific targets because the nature and variety of future contingencies demand both precise and reliable use of military power with minimal risk and collateral damage.

Information Superiority: The ability of joint force commanders to keep pace with information and incorporate it into a campaign plan is crucial.

Agile Combat Support: Deployment and sustainment are keys to successful operations and cannot be separated. Agile combat support applies to all forces, from those permanently based to contingency buildups to expeditionary forces.

TRY to remember that we're an AIR force, and YOU ARE SUPPORT. Build a bridge and GET OVER IT! This is the kind of CRAPOLA that is driven by an AF Creed...not the creed itself, with a SpecOp guy as a background image from Airman magazine. Which one of our distinctive capabilities includes ground operations to conquer and operate enemy air bases? None of them. You want offensive ops, move to another branch and enjoy.

Yes, Britain/France etcetera have been our allies for years - I think you know that the "this week" portion was exaggerated in the name of sarcasm. How many of their success stories do you wish to model? France's great success in homeland defense, perhaps? :rolleyes:

If you have more "esprit de corps" with Cops in other branches than you do with other AF members...maybe it's the fact that you THINK you're better than the rest of us. Understandable with a gate-guarding A1C, but you're supposed to outgrow that with a little age and maturity.

[Angry Irishman]

You go from being for that type of versatility, to against it, to for it, to against it. You sound confused about what you really expect from the Air Force. You say the AF cannot apply the same principles because of stubborn old NCOs like you, are you implying that it is you standing in the way of progress? If so, by all means, retire.




Indeed. If they want to see hard they can do the USMC Test... you've gotta do 3 miles in 18 minutes to max it.


Are you really lecturing me about what I expect from the Air Force?? I think I've served long enough to know what I expect from this Air Force so please leave the rhetoric to yourself. I've earned the right to retire and sure as shit don't need your advice on that subject. And yes, fresh blood is always good, I just think that the Air Force is focusing on the wrong subjects given the current challenges.

That said,

You missed the point and I probably didn't make myself clear. Every career field in this Air Force seems to have it's own agenda...including mine and yours. I want to fix planes, you want to protect them. It used to be simple; an AF base was there for the planes or sometimes missiles. Things are not so simple now with space command, cyber command, in leu of taskings, etc. The difference between us and the Marines is every single thing they do leads to the support of the guy on the ground....not us we are much too diverse. Another reason to not have a unified single branch.

[Silver Fox]

Another reason to not have a unified single branch.

Everything ultimately comes down to the same thing: Winning the war.

What else do you need? Also, the Air Force supports the guy on the ground. We either airlift for the guy on the ground, blow planes up to protect the guy on the ground, or drop bombs for the guy on the ground. Surveillance? For the guy on the ground. Cyber command? Guy on the ground. The only one you could argue otherwise would be the missile fields, because if we're using those... the guy on the ground is fucked anyway.

We're a branch of the military pretty much built around supporting the guy on the ground, without having a very significant number of guys on the ground.

[Angry Irishman]

Everything ultimately comes down to the same thing: Winning the war.

What else do you need? Also, the Air Force supports the guy on the ground. We either airlift for the guy on the ground, blow planes up to protect the guy on the ground, or drop bombs for the guy on the ground. Surveillance? For the guy on the ground. Cyber command? Guy on the ground. The only one you could argue otherwise would be the missile fields, because if we're using those... the guy on the ground is fucked anyway.

We're a branch of the military pretty much built around supporting the guy on the ground, without having a very significant number of guys on the ground.

Well I'd like to agree with you but....have you been to finance lately, perhaps the legal office? I'm not picking on these organizations as much as raising a point. Ask one of my troops working 70 plus hours a week if that 9 - 4 office job subscribes to the same agenda....I'm guessing no. This separation in thinking has gotten nothing but worse over time.

[Silver Fox]

I am not inclined to go mining through the posts to see how many times you've said that the standards weren't tough enough,

AND?


The AF performing offensive ground op[erations is not one of our DISTINCTIVE CAPABILITIES. Every service component has CORE COMPETENCIES than enable these distinctive capabilites...that is, those functions of warfare that "belong" with a component becuase that component is most able to acheive that function.

That's just paper. Paper changes. I know you think it's rediculous, but I will press for it during and after my service in the military. It's what I want, it's what I envision, most of all: It does no harm to you in anyway. You really can't justify any reason NOT to do it other than "WE SHOULDN'T! IT'S NOT OUR MISSION!" Missions change. Things adapt and evolve. I'm not the only one that thinks that way either, just the only one on here. I'm in the largest career field in the Air Force buddy, and I'd say the majority of my colleagues would jump at the chance for an actual offensive operation....


All of this comes from Joint Doctrine, which steers what we do in a joint warfighting environment. Again, this would be a lot easier if you would have the integrity to learn your craft and do your research before spouting off this nonsense.

So now we're citing the Air Force's resistance to change?


[I]Air and Space Superiority : With it, joint forces can dominate enemy operations in all dimensions -- land, sea, air and space.

You're living in today, I'm thinking of tomorrow.


Precision Engagement: The essence lies in the ability to apply selective force against specific targets because the nature and variety of future contingencies demand both precise and reliable use of military power with minimal risk and collateral damage.

Minimal risk and collateral damage or exclusive terms. If you want minimal collateral damage, you send in a team of ground troops and kill one guy. If you want minimal risk, you just blow up the whole building.


TRY to remember that we're an AIR force, and YOU ARE SUPPORT.

I'm well aware what we are, I'm arguing for what we could/should be. Are you that resistant to change? Once upon a time there was no Air Force, all it took was some paper and some congressional approval and we got an Air Force. Whose to say you can't do the same thing again and change it up a little bit? A document is not permanent. Oh, no, a document is NEVER permanent.


This is the kind of CRAPOLA that is driven by an AF Creed...not the creed itself, with a SpecOp guy as a background image from Airman magazine. Which one of our distinctive capabilities includes ground operations to conquer and operate enemy air bases? None of them. You want offensive ops, move to another branch and enjoy.

Or just keep pushing to get the AF into the fight.


How many of their success stories do you wish to model? France's great success in homeland defense, perhaps? :rolleyes:
Should we compare number of terrorist attacks on French soil to terrorist attacks on American soil? Or how about attacks against French assets in the Middle East? And just leave out the model careerfields of the British and Australians altogether....


If you have more "esprit de corps" with Cops in other branches than you do with other AF members...maybe it's the fact that you THINK you're better than the rest of us.
Or maybe we just do similar jobs.... but continue to make whatever you want out of it. I have nothing against Air Force people, I just don't enjoy listening to people whine about an easy PT Test, talk about fixing aircraft which I know nothing about, etc. etc. I would actually argue that YOU think you're better than US going by the overall Air Force attitude of "They're just cops, nobody cares."


Understandable with a gate-guarding A1C, but you're supposed to outgrow that with a little age and maturity.

You're filling in gaps with information never presented.

[Silver Fox]

Well I'd like to agree with you but....have you been to finance lately, perhaps the legal office? I'm not picking on these organizations as much as raising a point. Ask one of my troops working 70 plus hours a week if that 9 - 4 office job subscribes to the same agenda....I'm guessing no. This separation in thinking has gotten nothing but worse over time.


Well hey look at this way, those finance jobs will probably belong to civillians here in the next 5 - 10 years.

[WPNS]

I think the new fitness standards set by your squadron should be implemented by the AF. This would put a lot of the FAT people out of the AF. I am tired of seeing our AF personnel walking around with burger king bags and a 50 inch waist. We are in the military and are expected to support and defend the United States of America. How can we do this if a good portion of our AF is FAT.

you're an idiot, go back to your army barracks now

[Angry Irishman]

Well hey look at this way, those finance jobs will probably belong to civillians here in the next 5 - 10 years.

Yea, the same can be said about a lot of those maintenance and cop jobs......

[Silver Fox]

Yea, the same can be said about a lot of those maintenance and cop jobs......

Yeah, but they'll always need deployable cops and maintainers.... and maybe if we get lucky we'll keep that cop manpower and put it to good use... ;)

[Angry Irishman]

Yeah, but they'll always need deployable cops and maintainers.... and maybe if we get lucky we'll keep that cop manpower and put it to good use... ;)

Well holy shit we agree on something.....with that good night all:D

[WPNS]

Sounds like this CC is on the ball. Smart commander!

OH GOD, here we go with the wannabe Marine One letting us ALL know that he is far superior in all mannerisms and wishes us to become the Marinara Force!!!!

Shut up dingbat coreographer!

[WPNS]

For the love of all that is holy....this isn't the Army and I'm not talking about the PT test. It's embarrassing to hear HOOOOAH in person, especially around soldiers.

I'm in the Air Force (it says it right on my shirt), I say yes or no as my basic communicative response. I've noticed this incantation has lessened since Mosely left us; hopefully so will all the Army wanta be thoughts/practices so we can resume our basic Air Force role again....without the brain washing.

Oh, and regarding this commanders PT policy...to use a technical phrase....I think it's poop. The ultimate example of the "one up" syndrome. I'll say it again...give equal time to PT to every career field so this can be discussed on an equal footing...there is something to discuss. Make PT a unit based daily occurrence like the other services...then there is something to discuss.

The Air Force cannot expect Army like results by running this service like a company; especially on a non-level playing field. Standard my blue Air Force ass.

Negative-HOOOOHAAAAW!

Didn't you know that everyone that is a "Hoohaaw screamer" is getting it piled into their back pipes all the while saying YES, YES, YES!!! I will do whatever you ask of me, oh please no lube this time!!!

[Silver Fox]

Didn't you know that everyone that is a "Hoohaaw screamer" is getting it piled into their back pipes all the while saying YES, YES, YES!!! I will do whatever you ask of me, oh please no lube this time!!!

That's almost accurate, except it's closer to "For the love of Pete stop! Not again! WHYYYYY?!?!?!?!"

[WPNS]

Guess you haven't noticed cops have been saying this since their inception, and there's debate as to where it originated.

Granted, I hate people that want to hear HOOOOAH! After everything they say, but I do say Hua when asked to do something, as it's a simple, short response that indicated "Heard. Understood. Acknowledged."

Are they teaching this in basic now? Or is it still "Sir, Yes Sir" as when I came in in '91? Just because cops are the closet thing to the Army in the AF doesn't make it right!!!! and by the way, get the civilains off the gates and man it with REAL cops, not crew chiefs, wpns, and specs whom are takin away from THEIR duties to help the poor depleted cops out. Gee, who augments us? thought so. get this "Joint Force" concept in OUR house first, then help out the other services!!! (yes, you all know what I do and what I stand for, i can launch assist crew chiefs, and pull panels for specs, but holy fuckballs, who's out there on a Friday night helping us reconfig and load lives til 2 in the morn'!!!! peace out morons!!! LMAO

[Silver Fox]

Are they teaching this in basic now? Or is it still "Sir, Yes Sir" as when I came in in '91? Just because cops are the closet thing to the Army in the AF doesn't make it right!!!! and by the way, get the civilains off the gates and man it with REAL cops, not crew chiefs, wpns, and specs whom are takin away from THEIR duties

Actually, most augmentees are VOLUNTEERS.

And what? You miss the warm fuzzy of being able to berate an Airman in the morning or see him freezing his ass off in the rain and being able to say "Well atleast i'm not that guy"?

Why the backlash? Having a hard time getting in with your faded cac card because there's a DoD Civillian that gets paid good money to do that job? Better get used to it, because they're going to be in patrol cars writing you citations here soon! :D

[WPNS]

Where do you think we came from again?

Our mothers.....and we are not in the Army anymore...there is a way you can rectify that problem. Ever time you feel the need to yell HUA (HELP UNDERMANNED ARMY) just look down at your shirt and it will say AIR FORCE.


Actually 99% seem to agree with you... it's the 01% like me you're taking issue with.

Partially agree....train those who really need the Army training. I'm an office bitch who used to be an aircraft mechanic...I don't need this training (I''m with the 99%) . It is fiscally stupid to train (poorly at that) everyone in this manner.....especially when we are not the Army.


Who cares what some dead guy from World War 2 thinks? Your opinion doesn't count if you're dead.

Now you are grasping and quite possibly why we have to steal Army traditions while we lose the very few we have.[/QUOTE]

Dude, I love you MAN!!!

[WPNS]

I always thought that "HUA" crap was embarrassing when it first reared its ugly head some time in the late 90's, early 00's throughout the AF. It reaks of high ranking ass kissers kissing ass during a meeting with the "big guy" in the Wing conference room. Sounded good at the meeting and then trickled down to subsequent lower ranking ass kissers who also attended the aforementioned meeting. These are the same folks who stand in line at clothing sales on the first day the new uniform goes on sale so they can impress the "big guy" at the earliest chance possible, even though they have a closet full of serviceable BDUs. Then they look down their nose at everyone else who doesnt also have the new ABU. At least lets come up with something original. HUA doesnt cut it. A simple "understood" or "yes sir/maam" would suffice. It has in the past. Starting to ramble. I dont want to sound like a bitter retired AF person, just some things get under my skin. The AF was great to me and my family!

And I Love you too "Big Guy" LOL

See, all the GOOD people are retiring or have retired, letting these 30 plus year boners (bruwin, cmsbrown, and sms crusty "the retarded" clown continue to run the Army Air Corps into the ground!!!!

[Silver Fox]

So the majority of you are of the opinion that you do NOT need to know how to defend yourself or repel an enemy assault on the airbase? When all the cops on the perimeter get torn up by some real BAMFs you'd what, stick your head between your legs and try and kiss your ass goodbye?

Interesting. I'm in awe of your fighting spirit. (Sarcasm)

You people wonder why I am the way I am when I'm surrounded by people who bitch about being trained to survive and stay alive. That's why every Marine and every soldier is a rifleman. Not so they can all get tapped to play infantry, so they can all defend themselves and take care of eachother. And you people say that's not a worthwhile investment. Have fun cowering in your concrete shelters. It won't do much good when the indirect fire stops and enemy troops are tossing grenades inside of them.

[WPNS]

Actually, most augmentees are VOLUNTEERS.

And what? You miss the warm fuzzy of being able to berate an Airman in the morning or see him freezing his ass off in the rain and being able to say "Well atleast i'm not that guy"?

Why the backlash? Having a hard time getting in with your faded cac card because there's a DoD Civillian that gets paid good money to do that job? Better get used to it, because they're going to be in patrol cars writing you citations here soon! :D

Ohhhh they are already doing it here, and I never thought I would say it but they are WORSE then the SF's. And volunteers here for auggie duty meant being an AB-SrA. They are ALL tagged for auggie duty...

[Silver Fox]

Ohhhh they are already doing it here, and I never thought I would say it but they are WORSE then the SF's. And volunteers here for auggie duty meant being an AB-SrA. They are ALL tagged for auggie duty...

For a few weeks of their life. Haven't you seen the posters "Force Protection--- it's everyone's business." Actually there was an article not long ago saying how it would be that way... the policies were changing. Other career fields would be doing basic force protection duties while cops were outside the wire.

And define worse? Worse for you or worse for the base? Ours are damn good at what they do, and they don't take shit from people. The number of confiscated ID cards and number of citations issued have sky rocketed.

[WPNS]

So the majority of you are of the opinion that you do NOT need to know how to defend yourself or repel an enemy assault on the airbase? When all the cops on the perimeter get torn up by some real BAMFs you'd what, stick your head between your legs and try and kiss your ass goodbye?

Interesting. I'm in awe of your fighting spirit. (Sarcasm)

You people wonder why I am the way I am when I'm surrounded by people who bitch about being trained to survive and stay alive. That's why every Marine and every soldier is a rifleman. Not so they can all get tapped to play infantry, so they can all defend themselves and take care of eachother. And you people say that's not a worthwhile investment. Have fun cowering in your concrete shelters. It won't do much good when the indirect fire stops and enemy troops are tossing grenades inside of them.

uhhh, well I guess we die then, if this is the case, that we are all "defenders" then where is my rifle I get to carry around all day? What happened in Korea during the war? the pilots left the maintainers there to die and that's just what happened......... Now, if Mexico invades us here or the Gila monsters get restless, hopefulley we'll have some warning, and just for your info buddy. I tried to get my flight qual'd on the M-16 and we were shot down to to "no ammo for training" go figure!

[WPNS]

For a few weeks of their life. Haven't you seen the posters "Force Protection--- it's everyone's business." Actually there was an article not long ago saying how it would be that way... the policies were changing. Other career fields would be doing basic force protection duties while cops were outside the wire.

And define worse? Worse for you or worse for the base? Ours are damn good at what they do, and they don't take shit from people. The number of confiscated ID cards and number of citations issued have sky rocketed.

worse in being they think they are REAL cops, well, they haven't taken the acadamy or nor do they have an AZ POST Certification, so they are act like dicks, they must have watched to many Paul Blart Mall Cop movies!!!!! LMAO

[Silver Fox]

uhhh, well I guess we die then, if this is the case, that we are all "defenders" then where is my rifle I get to carry around all day? What happened in Korea during the war? the pilots left the maintainers there to die and that's just what happened......... Now, if Mexico invades us here or the Gila monsters get restless, hopefulley we'll have some warning, and just for your info buddy. I tried to get my flight qual'd on the M-16 and we were shot down to to "no ammo for training" go figure!


So you go from bitching and whining about having to be 'hua' and then state you 'try to be hua but no one will let you'.....

Sounds like a cop out.

[Silver Fox]

worse in being they think they are REAL cops, well, they haven't taken the acadamy or nor do they have an AZ POST Certification, so they are act like dicks, they must have watched to many Paul Blart Mall Cop movies!!!!! LMAO

They're DoD guards, acting on the authority given to them. If in by acting like cops you mean sending you to the VRC when you're jacked up, then sure, they act like cops. I'm sick of everyone hating on them, they get paid a lot and are held to a lot higher standard than A1C Snuffy because of that.... also, about 90% of them are retired military, so show some fucking respect. Just remember when someone's telling you you're jacked up, that guy could be a retired E-9 from the Army infantry. We've got one at our base. Along with an E-9 maintainer. An E-7 and E-8 cop. An E-9 crew chief. Two E-7 marines. We've got some purple heart recipients as well. Do they go into your office and bust your balls about you doing your job?


Didn't think so.

Without them, the number of cops in the desert doing those ILO missions you guys hate so much would be significantly lower. Keep that in mind too.

[WPNS]

They're DoD guards, acting on the authority given to them. If in by acting like cops you mean sending you to the VRC when you're jacked up, then sure, they act like cops. I'm sick of everyone hating on them, they get paid a lot and are held to a lot higher standard than A1C Snuffy because of that.... also, about 90% of them are retired military, so show some fucking respect. Just remember when someone's telling you you're jacked up, that guy could be a retired E-9 from the Army infantry. We've got one at our base. Along with an E-9 maintainer. An E-7 and E-8 cop. An E-9 crew chief. Two E-7 marines. We've got some purple heart recipients as well. Do they go into your office and bust your balls about you doing your job?


Didn't think so.

Without them, the number of cops in the desert doing those ILO missions you guys hate so much would be significantly lower. Keep that in mind too.

I don't give a flyin fuck if Moseley was one of them, I AM ACTIVE DUTY, show ME some mother-fuckin respect and then MAYBE I'll return the favor in kind. I know who is who, but some mexican fu-man-chu wearing asshole harasses everyone, including my wife, and myself personally, and noone can do anything about it. HUA that shit

[Silver Fox]

I don't give a flyin fuck if Moseley was one of them, I AM ACTIVE DUTY, show ME some mother-fuckin respect and then MAYBE I'll return the favor in kind. I know who is who, but some mexican fu-man-chu wearing asshole harasses everyone, including my wife, and myself personally, and noone can do anything about it. HUA that shit



Define harass.

Do you give him an attitude everytime you come through the gate? And you're surprised when he gives it back?


I doubt he's got a full blown fu-man-chu, they have dress and appearance standards as well.... hell at our base they can't wear short sleeves if they have visible tattoos.

As an A1C on the gate a while back, I recall various service members wives giving me shit when they were fucked up, and then catching hell about it from their military spouses afterwards... apparently their wives thought they were above the law because their husbands were SSgts, TSgts, Captains, etc....

Bottom line: Everyone's nice to the gate guard until he has to do his job and tell you to get your shit squared away, then suddenly your public enemy number one. Get over it. You know, I recognized every face that was a dick to me on the gate, and had thousands upon thousands of opportunities to return the favors when I found myself in their office or work station, or had them pulled over later on as a patrolman.... but I guess they train cops to not let personal feelings interfere and I always treated them fairly. I never threw a fit in their office, and I never wrote them a citation they didn't earn(and even briefed and released a few...) however.... people will always remember "The gate guard that fucked them", it's unprofessional for the gateguard to remember "the asshole with the expired ID that tried to fuck you."

Those guys are under strict orders and their jobs are on the line. Unlike the A1C who used to man that gate, those guys can and WILL be fired if they screw up. Can't blame them for taking their job seriously. Between the threat of terrorism, the threat of unaffiliated civillians committing crimes on base, and the threat of military affiliated civillians military personnel committing crimes on base. They get paid to be suspicious. You're in the military, sure, but military personnel still commit crimes. You know how many DWIs we get at the gate a month? It's rediculous. Don't like coming through the gate, hey, you can always seperate.

Just remember it's for your own safety, if you ever doubt why they're doing something just remember these three incidents:
Joe Blo civillian wants to come on base and 'surprise his wife' but he forgot his dependent ID. Sympathetic person lets him on base. Guess what? He's a pissed ex boyfriend. Domestic violence ensues.
Joe Blo dependent wants to come on base but forgot his wallet at home, he gets checked out and is actually a dependent. He gets a visitor pass. He gets arrested for a larceny.
Jane Blo active duty chick and her husband want on base, Jane Blo forgets her ID card, her husband comes up and vouches her on base. Turns out Jane Blo ain't in the military anymore, but for some reason her husband still has an ID card. Domestic violence takes place later on while inside the installation.


The point I'm trying to make is there's a statistical correlation between expired/missing ID cards and crime on base. Most crimes on base are committed by people who never should have been on base in the first place. This shit happens at bases across CONUS and OCONUS everyday. As a lot of the time these ID cards aren't really lost and a lot of these cats with expired IDs asking for a break couldn't renew that ID because they aren't military anymore. So if you wonder why someone's being a bit anal retentive about your ID card.... just take those actual experiences into account, and be thankful someone is actually looking at it. I don't need to bring up Ft. Dix do I?

[smarg]

I don't give a flyin fuck if Moseley was one of them, I AM ACTIVE DUTY, show ME some mother-fuckin respect and then MAYBE I'll return the favor in kind. I know who is who, but some mexican fu-man-chu wearing asshole harasses everyone, including my wife, and myself personally, and noone can do anything about it. HUA that shit

Dude. Chill. And, stay away from knives or axes. :D

[BRAVO10000]

That's just paper. Paper changes. I know you think it's rediculous, but I will press for it during and after my service in the military. It's what I want, it's what I envision, most of all: It does no harm to you in anyway. You really can't justify any reason NOT to do it other than "WE SHOULDN'T! IT'S NOT OUR MISSION!" Missions change. Things adapt and evolve.

Seriously, you're way over your head here and you just keep digging. The whole POINT of doctrine is adaptability. Warfighting and Air Doctrine comes from yeasr of experience, and is supposed to serve as a guide for our basic functions as an Air Force. You do know that this comes from the SecDef/JCS level, yes? Are you stating now that you know better how to organize and conduct warfare than our joint leaders at the Pentagon?


You're living in today, I'm thinking of tomorrow.

No - it appears that you are thinking about you...period dot. "tomorrow" might include a theater engagement with Iran, China, or North Korea. What do you think - they'll just give us control of the air?


Minimal risk and collateral damage or exclusive terms. If you want minimal collateral damage, you send in a team of ground troops and kill one guy. If you want minimal risk, you just blow up the whole building.

Agreed. That's why we have a purple force of SpecOps. But this isn't a video game. Sometimes it takes more than a pocket full of C4 to take down a bridge.


I'm well aware what we are, I'm arguing for what we could/should be. Are you that resistant to change? Once upon a time there was no Air Force, all it took was some paper and some congressional approval and we got an Air Force. Whose to say you can't do the same thing again and change it up a little bit? A document is not permanent. Oh, no, a document is NEVER permanent.

What is it that you're proposing we "could" be? Army Light? I doubt that you really know the reason that we have a separate USMC and Army infantry. The answers are in the Joint Pubs...you could give them a read while you're "multi-tasking". The AF is change-oriented, and I am not resistant to change. I am resistant to the change that you propose. Because it is stupid.


Should we compare number of terrorist attacks on French soil to terrorist attacks on American soil? Or how about attacks against French assets in the Middle East? And just leave out the model careerfields of the British and Australians altogether....

Should we? Why in the world would a terrorist attack France? That's where they go for R&R. I guess your answer, then, is concession...just let 'em do what they want, and line up trees to point the way to the White House just like the Champs D'Elysees...


Or maybe we just do similar jobs.... but continue to make whatever you want out of it. I have nothing against Air Force people, I just don't enjoy listening to people whine about an easy PT Test, talk about fixing aircraft which I know nothing about, etc. etc. I would actually argue that YOU think you're better than US going by the overall Air Force attitude of "They're just cops, nobody cares." You're filling in gaps with information never presented.

Heh. Maybe you do similar jobs. Too similar. Maybe to the level of being wasteful, but that isn't for me to decide.

No one is making you "listen" to anything. You come here voluntarily, assert wildly (sometimes) and then argue with anyone that contradicts you. The evident self-loathing aside, you're just talking about things on the ground floor without any concept of 2nd and 3rd order effects. Well enough, if you feel good about earning your paycheck that way. But as I recall, you're jumping ship in a few months to go to school? I'll be here waiting for Silver Fox's Change #1 to joint doctrine.

[Combat correspondent]

I don't give a flyin fuck if Moseley was one of them, I AM ACTIVE DUTY, show ME some mother-fuckin respect and then MAYBE I'll return the favor in kind. I know who is who, but some mexican fu-man-chu wearing asshole harasses everyone, including my wife, and myself personally, and noone can do anything about it. HUA that shit

Wow! I was going to punk your dumb-ass for the comment you made to me earlier, but, it looks like you already made enough of an ass of yourself for one day!

Dude, you are demanding respect in the same thread you are calling the professional who is guarding your pansy ass a Mexican fu-man-chu. I bet you didn't call him a Mexican fu-man-chu for fear he'd roll your pansy little cunt face up and smoke you. I love people like you - people who come on here and talk "cyber shit" to me, call your gate guards racist names and then retreat back under your little rock and cry yourself to sleep while people like me, that gate guard and many others on this thread keep your shitty little rock safe!

[RetiredMSGT]

Too late :rolleyes:

Hey crusty. I see from your posts you are the first one in the room to jump up and yell "Hua" at what ever rolls down from up top. To a certain degree that is expected from a senior NCO. Great. Keep it up and im sure you will make that next stripe. AF needs more yes men. PS. nice language accentuates your points really well. Kind of Army like.

[VFFSSGT]

Hey crusty. I see from your posts you are the first one in the room to jump up and yell "Hua" at what ever rolls down from up top. To a certain degree that is expected from a senior NCO. Great. Keep it up and im sure you will make that next stripe. AF needs more yes men. PS. nice language accentuates your points really well. Kind of Army like.

Waiting on Crusty's response...3...2...1... :) Should be interesting if he bothers to waste his time...

By the way, he already made Chief... :rolleyes:

[VFFSSGT]

I disagree. I believe technical proficiency and job knowledge lend themselves more toward the Air Force being respected more as a military service than having a hard ass PT program producing McPeak-like stick figures. As far as resistance to change, are you kidding? Everyone in the Air Force knows that absolutely nothing stays the same. Change is constant. As soon as you figure something out, the Air Force changes it. Everything goes in circles in the Air Force. You can't stay in the AF without being flexible to change. Any resistance to change is because people are sick of it.

Technical proficiency and job knowledge are only two small pieces of the pie. If this is all we were concerned about then we wouldn't be a military or send people to basic training; we would skip straight to tech school. These two alone actually have nothing to do with the 'military' mentality. You can get these working anywhere... :rolleyes:

[smarg]

Waiting on Crusty's response...3...2...1... :) Should be interesting if he bothers to waste his time...

By the way, he already made Chief... :rolleyes:

Yes, sadly, it appears he's going to be yet another enlisted general parading his monster clown stripes around, scaring no one except little girls. ;)

[WILDJOKER5]

and will you be there to try to confort those little girls? Dont be hating cause a chief gets more respect than you.

[TRDL]

So the majority of you are of the opinion that you do NOT need to know how to defend yourself or repel an enemy assault on the airbase? When all the cops on the perimeter get torn up by some real BAMFs you'd what, stick your head between your legs and try and kiss your ass goodbye?

Interesting. I'm in awe of your fighting spirit. (Sarcasm)

You people wonder why I am the way I am when I'm surrounded by people who bitch about being trained to survive and stay alive. That's why every Marine and every soldier is a rifleman. Not so they can all get tapped to play infantry, so they can all defend themselves and take care of eachother. And you people say that's not a worthwhile investment. Have fun cowering in your concrete shelters. It won't do much good when the indirect fire stops and enemy troops are tossing grenades inside of them.

Seriously? Were you dropped on your head as a child? They train to be rifleman exactly for the puropse of getting tapped to be infantry, as that's the main job of the army. In all honesty if you want to compare that, all Noncoms in the AF ought to be minimally trained to do aircraft repairs, so if all hell breaks loose, all planes can be outfitted, repaired, and sent back into the fight as quickly as possible.

Iif these BAMFs you refer to take out the people who train for them specifically, how well do you think a poorly, infrequently trained group of people who like to say HUA would do? Do you really think it'd be any better than those with good training, or even those who decide that someone has to fight to save others so it might as well be them?

[CrustySMSgt]

Hey crusty. I see from your posts you are the first one in the room to jump up and yell "Hua" at what ever rolls down from up top. To a certain degree that is expected from a senior NCO. Great. Keep it up and im sure you will make that next stripe. AF needs more yes men. PS. nice language accentuates your points really well. Kind of Army like.

Certainly not a yes man... but absolutely not a "bitch just for the sake of bitching" man either. Agree or not, it is my responsibility to support the decisions of my leadership, whether I agree or not. Sure, I could be two faced and get on here and bitch and moan about how fucked up everything is and then in "real life" walk the walk. Or I can do my best to be a proffesional 24/7 and represent myself here as I do in real life and not just be a keyboard warrior. Sure, it is just a forum, and I could say anything I want... but I respect myself and my service enough to try and be proffesional at all times.

Just because this is an anonymous forum doesn't mean impressionable Airmen don't come on here and see NCOs/SNCOs/Os on here talking smack and think it gives them license to do so in real life... and to use the attitudes here against thier own leadership. I am all for voicing my opinion... and I've had some candid, knockdown, drag out conversations with O-6 leadership... but when I walk out the door, his opinion is my opinion. This ain't no part time gig for me... virtually or in real life.

And for the record, I already made that next stripe.

[CrustySMSgt]

Yes, sadly, it appears he's going to be yet another enlisted general parading his monster clown stripes around, scaring no one except little girls. ;)

roflmao... I gotta sleep sometime

[LOAL-D]

roflmao... I gotta sleep sometime


That's why you got to get the tatoos on both arms! :D

[Silver Fox]

Seriously? Were you dropped on your head as a child? They train to be rifleman exactly for the puropse of getting tapped to be infantry, as that's the main job of the army.

No. It's to defend themselves and their installations and to build discipline and esprit de corps.


In all honesty if you want to compare that, all Noncoms in the AF ought to be minimally trained to do aircraft repairs, so if all hell breaks loose, all planes can be outfitted, repaired, and sent back into the fight as quickly as possible.

Iif these BAMFs you refer to take out the people who train for them specifically, how well do you think a poorly, infrequently trained group of people who like to say HUA would do? Do you really think it'd be any better than those with good training, or even those who decide that someone has to fight to save others so it might as well be them?

So again, you have no desire to defend yourself or your comrades? Gotcha. Thanks.

[Silver Fox]

The whole POINT of doctrine is adaptability.

Except we're not adapting. You just shot yourself in the foot there.


Warfighting and Air Doctrine comes from yeasr of experience, and is supposed to serve as a guide for our basic functions as an Air Force. You do know that this comes from the SecDef/JCS level, yes?

Absolutely.


Are you stating now that you know better how to organize and conduct warfare than our joint leaders at the Pentagon?

You think they're the end all be all? Hell no.





What is it that you're proposing we "could" be? Army Light? I doubt that you really know the reason that we have a separate USMC and Army infantry.

I would be forced to question your own knowledge of the two branches of the service, or why the marines have their own air support and the army does not...


The answers are in the Joint Pubs...you could give them a read while you're "multi-tasking".

I'm not at work, thanks.


am resistant to the change that you propose. Because it is stupid.

An unsupported opinion.




Should we? Why in the world would a terrorist attack France? That's where they go for R&R. I guess your answer, then, is concession...just let 'em do what they want, and line up trees to point the way to the White House just like the Champs D'Elysees...

France has taken a stand against terrorism. I recall France simply stating, "nuclear terrorism in france will result in nuclear retaliation". France also recognizes that sometimes there are no 'good' or 'bad' guys in a situation and negotiates and talks accordingly. The put their foot down more than you realize, particularly in Africa. Just because they've managed to avoid entangling themselves in the shit pot that is the Middle East doesn't make them a weak nation. Your opinion smacks of typical American arrogance.




Heh. Maybe you do similar jobs. Too similar. Maybe to the level of being wasteful, but that isn't for me to decide.

So you're implying we shouldn't have AF cops? Now you seem to be FOR unification all of a sudden.... I agree with you. It is wasteful, let's combine everything!


The evident self-loathing aside, you're just talking about things on the ground floor without any concept of 2nd and 3rd order effects.

I know them. I just think they're frankly, wrong. I've never made any claim to humbleness or modesty.

[TRDL]

No. It's to defend themselves and their installations and to build discipline and esprit de corps.


So again, you have no desire to defend yourself or your comrades? Gotcha. Thanks.

Horseshit. No where in there did it say I have no desire to defend myself or my comrades. I asked you what difference you think minimal training would do against enemies who have already taken out those who train specifically to defeat said enemies. I personally don't think that there would be much difference from someone who just had the courage to pick up a weapon and go at it.

You stated, somewhere else I believe, that the AAF split from the Army due to the Army being too large, they still have what 1.2 million? Do you believe that with only 300,000 we could not only maintain current capabilities, augment army forces in the sand box, prepare for future events, and train to be infantry?

[Silver Fox]

You stated, somewhere else I believe, that the AAF split from the Army due to the Army being too large, they still have what 1.2 million? Do you believe that with only 300,000 we could not only maintain current capabilities, augment army forces in the sand box, prepare for future events, and train to be infantry?

Yep, sure do... because we'd have that Army manpower as well. It'd be more give and take. Right now, the army just takes. :)

[TRDL]

Ok, I guess we'll skip that first question then.

How about this, if the AAF split because it was too big to function well, how will a unification improve things, that doesn't follow very well..

[JHawkG33K]

Soooo...about that new PT policy.

The CC is operating within the letter of the AFI, and is well within his/her rights to do so.

I don't agree with the way it is being done...people will get burnt out if they don't get an opportunity to rest and recover. A person can only improve their conditioning if they train in the proper manner. Most people don't have the necessary knowledge about proper training techniques and/or they apply what they read or hear from some "exercise guru" and they fail to improve in a healthy way.

If a person needs to improve .5 - 1.5 points then 42 days is probably more than enough time to prepare. If there is a greater deficit to overcome then proper supervision and adequate instruction in true physical training are probably necessary.

Honestly there is probably a lot more to the program than the little blurb in the OP but without all the details it is difficult to judge the program.

[WPNS]

Wow! I was going to punk your dumb-ass for the comment you made to me earlier, but, it looks like you already made enough of an ass of yourself for one day!

Dude, you are demanding respect in the same thread you are calling the professional who is guarding your pansy ass a Mexican fu-man-chu. I bet you didn't call him a Mexican fu-man-chu for fear he'd roll your pansy little cunt face up and smoke you. I love people like you - people who come on here and talk "cyber shit" to me, call your gate guards racist names and then retreat back under your little rock and cry yourself to sleep while people like me, that gate guard and many others on this thread keep your shitty little rock safe!

You don't have time to read posts, you are too busy trying to butt-rape your A1C that told you to fuck off and you got butt hurt and ran her ass up to the shirts office!!! how is that one going anyways? get her booted yet? feel proud of it?

[WPNS]

Yes, sadly, it appears he's going to be yet another enlisted general parading his monster clown stripes around, scaring no one except little girls. ;)

Isn't THAT going to be the truth!!!!

[AF_MSgt]

Honestly there is probably a lot more to the program than the little blurb in the OP but without all the details it is difficult to judge the program.

No, what I listed is the policy. Is there anything that you have questions on?

The more I think about it, the more I agree with this policy. For the most part, it prevents people from slipping for 10 months and then struggling to pass with a 76.

And just so you know, we can discuss this at length here. But in real life, I always back my Commander 100 percent when talking to others. It's our job as SNCOs.

[BRAVO10000]

I would be forced to question your own knowledge of the two branches of the service, or why the marines have their own air support and the army does not....

Rotary aircraft anyone? Armored Cav what? I guess Cobras, Apaches and Blackhawks don't count as aircraft just because they fly, nor do the UAVs because they are launched by hand?

Seriously - your posts are full of wild conjecture, assumptions and no real knowledge. Further, you don't care to get that knowledge, certainly not at work (horrors!); polluting this thread must be what you do with that 5-hours-per-day that you have left. You'll word twist in some attempt to try to prove something, like I am not going to catch the word "nuclear" in your weak-a$$ reference about France.. I'd love to see their idea of "nuclear retaliation" in, say, Saudi Arabia. Makes sense, sure. :rolleyes:

Ohhh Africa. Yeah, been there. So they managed to put in a colony in Djibouti. Yippity sh*t skippy. That colony in particular has been around for a little beter than a hundred years; I really don't think terrorism was the driver as much as imperialism. A little history trip to the Carribean would do you some good it appears.

The worst part about it is that I let myself get into this conversation KNOWING that you lacked the background/perspective to speak to it intelligently. But gladly, that is a mistake that I can do something about. Apologies to those that have endured the hijacked thread. :: poof ::

[Pueblo]

Despite what service one enlists you join for a reason. Each service has their unique capabilities/specialties.

What are the Air Force's?

[BRAVO10000]

What are the Air Force's?

The mission of the United States Air Force is to fly, fight and win...in air, space and cyberspace. http://www.af.mil/main/welcome.asp

To achieve that mission, the Air Force has a vision:

The United States Air Force will be a trusted and reliable joint partner with our sister services known for integrity in all of our activities, including supporting the joint mission first and foremost. We will provide compelling air, space, and cyber capabilities for use by the combatant commanders. We will excel as stewards of all Air Force resources in service to the American people, while providing precise and reliable Global Vigilance, Reach and Power for the nation.

The Air Force has three core competencies: Developing Airmen, Technology-to-Warfighting and Integrating Operations. These core competencies make our six distinctive capabilities possible:

Air and Space Superiority : With it, joint forces can dominate enemy operations in all dimensions -- land, sea, air and space.

Global Attack: Because of technological advances, the Air Force can attack anywhere, anytime -- and do so quickly and with greater precision than ever before.

Rapid Global Mobility: Being able to respond quickly and decisively anywhere we're needed is key to maintaining rapid global mobility.

Precision Engagement: The essence lies in the ability to apply selective force against specific targets because the nature and variety of future contingencies demand both precise and reliable use of military power with minimal risk and collateral damage.

Information Superiority: The ability of joint force commanders to keep pace with information and incorporate it into a campaign plan is crucial.

Agile Combat Support: Deployment and sustainment are keys to successful operations and cannot be separated. Agile combat support applies to all forces, from those permanently based to contingency buildups to expeditionary forces.

[JHawkG33K]

No, what I listed is the policy. Is there anything that you have questions on?

The more I think about it, the more I agree with this policy. For the most part, it prevents people from slipping for 10 months and then struggling to pass with a 76.

And just so you know, we can discuss this at length here. But in real life, I always back my Commander 100 percent when talking to others. It's our job as SNCOs.

I was going to say that if there isn't any support in the system (training support) then someone will get hurt. I thought about, after I posted and I tend to agree with you on this. The standards aren't difficult to achieve if you put forth even a modicum of effort. So what if you test a little more often, all the PFT ends up being is a short workout at the worst. I mean really, 10-12 min of running coupled with 2 min of sit-ups/push-ups is just the beginning of a decent workout in my opinion. If you are just getting bye then at least you have gotten in some exercise for that day.

I have other issues with how the Air Force PT policy in general is administered but that is a topic for another thread...as are many of the posts in the latter half of this one.

[AF_MSgt]

I was going to say that if there isn't any support in the system (training support) then someone will get hurt. I thought about, after I posted and I tend to agree with you on this. The standards aren't difficult to achieve if you put forth even a modicum of effort. So what if you test a little more often, all the PFT ends up being is a short workout at the worst. I mean really, 10-12 min of running coupled with 2 min of sit-ups/push-ups is just the beginning of a decent workout in my opinion. If you are just getting bye then at least you have gotten in some exercise for that day.

Very good points. I couldn't agree more.

Just to elaborate a little more (for everyone's sake), we receive plenty of support. Every person in the squadron receives a minimum of 90 minutes of real duty time 3 times a week for PT.

If you want to go the extra mile (no pun intended), there is a running group that meets 5 days a week at 0600 and another group that meets at 1700. There's also several PTLs that offer a lunchtime workout as well. The options in this paragraph are outside of the regular PT routines that are offered 3 times a week.

We are a regular mission support unit (not a combat unit). And yes, we have a very busy mission. What sets us apart from the rest is the fact that our commander makes PT a priority and holds us accountable. Truth be told, this is what every commander should be doing, but few actually are.

[Silver Fox]

Rotary aircraft anyone? Armored Cav what? I guess Cobras, Apaches and Blackhawks don't count as aircraft just because they fly, nor do the UAVs because they are launched by hand?


I was referring to fast movers and you know it. :rolleyes:


Seriously - your posts are full of wild conjecture, assumptions and no real knowledge. Further, you don't care to get that knowledge, certainly not at work (horrors!); polluting this thread must be what you do with that 5-hours-per-day that you have left.

Your failure to provide a valid reason not to go with what I've said has been noticed by atleast me, if no one else.


You'll word twist in some attempt to try to prove something, like I am not going to catch the word "nuclear" in your weak-a$$ reference about France.. I'd love to see their idea of "nuclear retaliation" in, say, Saudi Arabia. Makes sense, sure. :rolleyes:

Didn't plan too. If you want to have the narrow view that America is the only country doing good in the world, that's an ignorance I can't correct.


Ohhh Africa. Yeah, been there. So they managed to put in a colony in Djibouti. Yippity sh*t skippy. That colony in particular has been around for a little beter than a hundred years; I really don't think terrorism was the driver as much as imperialism. A little history trip to the Carribean would do you some good it appears.

Ignoring French contributions to UN Peacekeeping efforts are we? Would you demean the New Zealand military the same way? Or the Finnish? Or the Germans?


The worst part about it is that I let myself get into this conversation KNOWING that you lacked the background/perspective to speak to it intelligently.

You're the one that appears to be throwing a fit. But go stand on your soap box, high above me, it doesn't matter to me either way. I'm fully aware my ideals are unliked by most, if I thought they'd meet warm reception I wouldn't have to say them, someone else would have already.

[DHarris75]

Very good points. I couldn't agree more.

Just to elaborate a little more (for everyone's sake), we receive plenty of support. Every person in the squadron receives a minimum of 90 minutes of real duty time 3 times a week for PT.

If you want to go the extra mile (no pun intended), there is a running group that meets 5 days a week at 0600 and another group that meets at 1700. There's also several PTLs that offer a lunchtime workout as well. The options in this paragraph are outside of the regular PT routines that are offered 3 times a week.

We are a regular mission support unit (not a combat unit). And yes, we have a very busy mission. What sets us apart from the rest is the fact that our commander makes PT a priority and holds us accountable. Truth be told, this is what every commander should be doing, but few actually are.

Ya know - after the initial reaction and thinking on it some more...I definately see the logic in the intent of the policy. But I still see a problem with it in they way it seems to contradict the AFI's intent. The AFI specifically says that your test date should be based on your previous score. Now, you can twist and turn that phrase to make it mean what you want - but that phrase, in context with the timelines listed underneath it, indicate to me on a very elementary level that the intent of the author was to have you test one year after a passing score unless you need to test earlier due to a deployment.

Having said that - I do think that testing more often is a good motivator to prevent those that slack off during the year. But I think a CC could setup a policy where the tests are for unit purposes and initiate other tools to end up at the same goal - CC mandated FIP, LOCs/LORs...but when you say it's an official AF test to be recorded when, according to AFI, you aren't due yet - well, I just think that will end up being more detriment than good.

The intent is great though. And while it may be legal per the AFI, I think it goes against the intent of the AFI. As said before though - new AFI coming out soon so all bets are off anyway. But I'd rather see this policy than no policy - pretty much the stance at my last base :)

[CrustySMSgt]

Having said that - I do think that testing more often is a good motivator to prevent those that slack off during the year. But I think a CC could setup a policy where the tests are for unit purposes and initiate other tools to end up at the same goal - CC mandated FIP, LOCs/LORs...but when you say it's an official AF test to be recorded when, according to AFI, you aren't due yet - well, I just think that will end up being more detriment than good.


The problem with that is, again, we're 6 years into this program... so it is pretty obvious self-policing and or motivation just ain't gonna do it for many folks... Neither is mock testing or internal programs... so this is the next logical step, to make the tests happen on the clock and let the chips fall where they may.

[BRAVO10000]

I was referring to fast movers and blah blah blah I love the Europeans and the Army and Marines blah blah blah I'm fully aware that no one likes me blah blah blah..

YGTBFSM. You really are just making sh*t up. :eek:


I would be forced to question your own knowledge of the two branches of the service, or why the marines have their own air support and the army does not...


Actually, they already do. In today's warfare there are Army warfighters and aircraft. ( http://www.militarytimes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1575449 )

[DHarris75]

The problem with that is, again, we're 6 years into this program... so it is pretty obvious self-policing and or motivation just ain't gonna do it for many folks... Neither is mock testing or internal programs... so this is the next logical step, to make the tests happen on the clock and let the chips fall where they may.

Very true...I hear you.

But I wonder how many local programs have put teeth into it? If I had a Mock test next week, and if I fail it, my CC will place me on FIP and give me an LOC (counselling me on my current status and correcting my flight pattern so I will pass my next test) - well, I'd be putting forth max effort to pass. Then your mock tests will give you a reading on your unit as a whole.

I see the program as one where the program strives to help you improve - not to be used a force shaper. If you fail, there are programs in place to help you...to help the CC help you. If those programs were used properly, then I don't think you'd need to resort to changing the AFI testing timelines. Now, some people just aren't going to buy in and improve - if they fail and do the FIP and keep failing...see ya. But if you pass...well, you pass. Now it's up to the CC to support the program and give you the means (time/motivation) to keep in shape. That to me means unit PT...oversight...the CC knows how YOU are doing day to day. Maybe not SQ CC, depending on how big your unit is...but definately flight CC or higher.

This is a way to accomplish that. I just don't think that a bigger stick is what is needed...I think the programs are in place - I just don't see a lot of units utilizing those programs the way they could or should. I like how we are doing it now in PACAF - our HAWC now manages all FIP. So if you are on FIP, you do PT with the base physiologist and it's progressive in nature. Basically, he will not let you fail...if you meet him halfway, he will work you out in a smart way and if you put forth the effort (you HAVE to be there) - you will improve and pass.

Then again, maybe when I get that elusive SrNCO stripe and get into unit level mgmt, my sight picture and perspective/opinions will adjust.

[Silver Fox]

.

YGTBFSM. You really are just making sh*t up. :eek:

This must be one of these cool little internet acronyms. Such maturity!

[VFFSSGT]

I was wondering that too; however, I though maybe I just missed the memo with the latest cool internet terms... :rolleyes:

[CrustySMSgt]

Very true...I hear you.

I see the program as one where the program strives to help you improve - not to be used a force shaper. If you fail, there are programs in place to help you...to help the CC help you. If those programs were used properly, then I don't think you'd need to resort to changing the AFI testing timelines. Now, some people just aren't going to buy in and improve - if they fail and do the FIP and keep failing...see ya. But if you pass...well, you pass. Now it's up to the CC to support the program and give you the means (time/motivation) to keep in shape. That to me means unit PT...oversight...the CC knows how YOU are doing day to day. Maybe not SQ CC, depending on how big your unit is...but definately flight CC or higher.

This is a way to accomplish that. I just don't think that a bigger stick is what is needed...I think the programs are in place - I just don't see a lot of units utilizing those programs the way they could or should. I like how we are doing it now in PACAF - our HAWC now manages all FIP. So if you are on FIP, you do PT with the base physiologist and it's progressive in nature. Basically, he will not let you fail...if you meet him halfway, he will work you out in a smart way and if you put forth the effort (you HAVE to be there) - you will improve and pass.

Then again, maybe when I get that elusive SrNCO stripe and get into unit level mgmt, my sight picture and perspective/opinions will adjust.

As much as I'd like to wholeheartedly agree with your softer approach, 6 years into the program, we should be well past "striving to improve!" Airmen from basic arrive reasonably fit and should fall right in line. To everyone else, this is nothing new, so they should be at the standard as a minimum... but have either been let slide by their units, or do the spin-up and regress method of passing.

Until the unit programs have teeth, and are followed, and we go to centralized testing AF-wide, the overall effectiveness of the program won't change.

Instead everyone just wants to bitch about the waist measurement, which in the big picture plays a very small part in whether you pass or not, unless you are over 40" and then it does what it is supposed to do.

[smarg]

As much as I'd like to wholeheartedly agree with your softer approach, 6 years into the program, we should be well past "striving to improve!" Airmen from basic arrive reasonably fit and should fall right in line. To everyone else, this is nothing new, so they should be at the standard as a minimum... but have either been let slide by their units, or do the spin-up and regress method of passing.

Until the unit programs have teeth, and are followed, and we go to centralized testing AF-wide, the overall effectiveness of the program won't change.

Instead everyone just wants to bitch about the waist measurement, which in the big picture plays a very small part in whether you pass or not, unless you are over 40" and then it does what it is supposed to do.

To sum it up, which I have many times before, the beer guts and fatties don't like the waist measurement, so they're lobbying to torture the whole Air Force into doing tougher standard PT tests 4 times a year. Hah! They'll get what they deserve. :rolleyes:

[Angry Irishman]

The problem with that is, again, we're 6 years into this program... so it is pretty obvious self-policing and or motivation just ain't gonna do it for many folks... Neither is mock testing or internal programs... so this is the next logical step, to make the tests happen on the clock and let the chips fall where they may.

And again, we are six years into the program and people in my career field have even less time to PT, especially on Uncle Sam's time as the mission doesn't allow adequate time.. In those six years manning levels have decreased to the lowest point while the workload has increased. Maybe that could be "fixed" as well.

And again, I don't want to hear suck it up and do it on your own time...these guys are working 60 - 70 hour weeks now. Calling it bitching or whining but the math of the matter doesn't lie.

No, this isn't just one unit it's a trend Air Force wide for maintenance and many other career fields who can't afford to just stop and go PT. The problem is well beyond creative scheduling solutions and such there just are not enough folks to make this program work as intended.

If we want to drive this fast new car maybe we need to be able to afford the gas to keep it running....

[Pueblo]

And again, we are six years into the program and people in my career field have even less time to PT, especially on Uncle Sam's time as the mission doesn't allow adequate time..

I love when the squadron directs PT to be done "on your own time." If it goes towards meeting a professional standard, why should it interfere with one's personal time?

[Angry Irishman]

It should not....people have lives and families of which they have very little time to see now. I'm beginning to think that many of the people on here who want teeth and blood from the PT program either have it pretty good in their current jobs or just turn a blind eye to the obvious.

"That sucks, and it is what it is" statements are not a satisfactory response to a systemic problem. For years it seems the problems have been recognized but not acted on....heads in the sand.

Hey my house is on fire...I think I'll mow the lawn or AF thinking, hey we have no manning, parts or experience lets create a diversion and develop or redevelop a new uniform or PT program.

[CrustySMSgt]

It should not....people have lives and families of which they have very little time to see now. I'm beginning to think that many of the people on here who want teeth and blood from the PT program either have it pretty good in their current jobs or just turn a blind eye to the obvious.

"That sucks, and it is what it is" statements are not a satisfactory response to a systemic problem. For years it seems the problems have been recognized but not acted on....heads in the sand.

Hey my house is on fire...I think I'll mow the lawn or AF thinking, hey we have no manning, parts or experience lets create a diversion and develop or redevelop a new uniform or PT program.

The "create a diversion" conspiracy theory comments crack me up... Maybe they are created at Area 51 with the UFOs we've got too. :rolleyes:

Not gonna argue there are issues... and I agree "suck it up and do it on your own" isn't the right answer. I've said before there shouldn't be drastic changes to make the program more intense until we solve that glaring hole in the program. PT should be factored into our manpower standard... but the AF isn't going to pull thousands of bodies out of this air to make it happen, so we've got to come up with solutions. I know there are units out there making it work (yes, even maintenance units); we need to share what works and get commanders to take the program seriously. Something has to give, because you are absolutely right, we are not all on the same sheet of music at this point.

But as with the other issues discussed, the decisions on the overall program are way above my paygrade... so I can bitch all day long about how it won't work, or I can make it work for my unit and do what I can to help other units.

[BRAVO10000]

This must be one of these cool little internet acronyms. Such maturity!

You've got to be f***ing sh*tting me = YGTBFSM. Figured that you'd know that since you spend all your shifts "multitasking" here on the AF's dime.

[Pueblo]

The mission of the United States Air Force is to fly, fight and win...in air, space and cyberspace. http://www.af.mil/main/welcome.asp

To achieve that mission, the Air Force has a vision:

The United States Air Force will be a trusted and reliable joint partner with our sister services known for integrity in all of our activities, including supporting the joint mission first and foremost. We will provide compelling air, space, and cyber capabilities for use by the combatant commanders. We will excel as stewards of all Air Force resources in service to the American people, while providing precise and reliable Global Vigilance, Reach and Power for the nation.

The Air Force has three core competencies: Developing Airmen, Technology-to-Warfighting and Integrating Operations. These core competencies make our six distinctive capabilities possible:

Air and Space Superiority : With it, joint forces can dominate enemy operations in all dimensions -- land, sea, air and space.

Global Attack: Because of technological advances, the Air Force can attack anywhere, anytime -- and do so quickly and with greater precision than ever before.

Rapid Global Mobility: Being able to respond quickly and decisively anywhere we're needed is key to maintaining rapid global mobility.

Precision Engagement: The essence lies in the ability to apply selective force against specific targets because the nature and variety of future contingencies demand both precise and reliable use of military power with minimal risk and collateral damage.

Information Superiority: The ability of joint force commanders to keep pace with information and incorporate it into a campaign plan is crucial.

Agile Combat Support: Deployment and sustainment are keys to successful operations and cannot be separated. Agile combat support applies to all forces, from those permanently based to contingency buildups to expeditionary forces.

That's adorable, but what does it have to do with fighting guys in caves?

[BigBaze]

That's adorable, but what does it have to do with fighting guys in caves?


It is adorable, I go blind reading about that stuff in the PDG, someday when my days of performing the mission are over someone can explain it all to me.

[Silver Fox]

That's adorable, but what does it have to do with fighting guys in caves?

Amen to that! Thanks.

[smarg]

That's adorable, but what does it have to do with fighting guys in caves?

You miss the whole point. The lovely, groomed SAAS graduate who got his BPZ promotion for writing that gobbledegook is probably a Wg CC waiting for word that he got picked up for O-7.

You must NOT stand in the way of great bullets. :D

[ramprat]

Well i see nothing has really changed since i retired in 2005. In fact, things seem to have gotten much worse. I bet there is still only one 7-level electrician on the entire nightshift Dover AFB flightline, making it a miracle -like effort to launch airplanes on time. I bet if i was still there, it would take me half a shift to beg, borrow or steal enough people from arount the MX complex to jack a C-5 off the ground for some intermittent landing gear problem. Then, the rest of the shift, try to reassemble the same folks to down-jack the same airplane. Why? Cause A/R shop is undemanned and has a good percentage of the shop, detailed out to someone else doing a different job. I bet the flight chiefs are still making bodies appear from thin air to fill the countless taskings from the CC/shirt/flight chief for SP augies, contractor escort, honor guard, bay orderly, piss monitor etc. etc. infinitim. I bet the Air Force is still loosing people/ downsizing. Looks like most of you can't actually go to the orderly room and talk to a real person anymore, you have to submit your questions over the internet to yet another AF web site, set up to make your life easier (exaggeration). Unless of course, it is to sign for you PT test date or for your piss test, then someone is there to help you. You dont read much about any of that. You read daily about the friggin Air Force PT program. I see where it is an all consuming program now. God help those who have to monitor/manage this program, let alone those of you that have to take the test. Should this program really be the priority now, at this time in our history when we are suppossed to be at war in at least two countries? We need good quality trained and motivated people to perform quality maintenance on highly technical and complicated systems and airframes. We need sufficient numbers of these people who are given appropriate time to do these jobs WITHOUT all of these friggin distractions that you folks put up with. When those conditions are not met, it is a matter of time before nukes are shipped from Minot to Barksdale without anyone knowing about it, or something else like that. Before i retired in 05, every time i thought we couldnt do more with less, we were forced to anyway. I felt it was a matter of time before something bad really happened. The Air Force has come a long way from the days of the 1.5 mile run/weigh- in once a year by everyone's buddy in the orderly room who gives the briefing to the folks before the run that goes something like this: "Everyone will pass today". Not saying that was right, but what we have today is out of control. The way i see it is #3 or #4 on everyone's priority list is the actual performance of their job, by no choice of their own. In my 21 years, I never saw anyone in mx unable to do their job because they were not in good enough physical condition, but i saw plenty of people who truly knew their jobs, throw their hands up in discust and get out because of this program. It wasn't what they signed up for. Regardless of the program they come up with, there will always be people who appear overweight, and i believe this what they really only care about, not everyone's health, as they claim. People in high up places who disagree with this program should start saying so, regardless of their career impact. This means Chiefs too.

was in MAC 67/69 and had 153 swinging Ds on grave shift ,141s with 4 of 5 on jacks or going up
or down every night ! The specialists shops supplied dismal support at best anytime after 1700.
Had 95 % first termers and they carried the load and a handful of e5 and e6 s in each of three flts.
The two other e7 were not certified do sign -off jack jobs / ldg gears/windshield changes ect ,ect
Got in trouble for signing off red cross on inst job prior to taxi as no shop authorized supv avail
after conservation with DCM seemed to be aware of support problems NOTHING was done.
Pulled the door to the battery shop off with my launch/recovery truck as nobody had the keys
nothing was said either . lots of good e5s and e6s bailed out of the AF during that period also.

[Smeghead]

That's adorable, but what does it have to do with fighting guys in caves?

Absolutely nothing because it's not the Air Force's mission. Except if you mean fighting guys in caves by dropping high-impulse thermobaric weapons, in which case that would be an Air Force mission--when we start using them.

[Silver Fox]

The specialists shops supplied dismal support at best anytime after 1700

This is an airforce wide problem, You can't get 24 hour or weekend support anywhere.

ANSWER ME THIS:
IN AN AIRFORCE WHERE PT FITNESS STANDARDS ARE ARGUABLY ONE OF THE SERVICE'S BIGGEST ISSUES, HOW IN THE SWEET, BEER KEG FILLED HELL ARE 24 HOUR GYMS NOT MANDATORY AT EVERY INSTALLATION IN THE AF? We should be able to go the gym ANYTIME. Ours closes at 6:00PM. Meaning that if you're in a day shift twelve, it opens after you're at work and closes before you get off, and if you work night shift, it means if you wake up early enough you might catch that last hour. If it's a weekend you're just SOL.

[sweatyAZ]

Well I definently think the PT argument is the most blown out of proportion program going on right now. You know, the kind that every officer or senior NCO jumps on the bandwagon for that next promotion. However, you do have a great point in that most bases do not have a 24 hour gym. I think thats called irony, or supervision really doesn't care. They are just running their mouths so they don't get kicked out of the "good ole boy" club. From what I've seen it's about a 50/50 split between those who really want pt and those who are just spewing it out so not to be seen as a trouble maker when retirement is so close.

[AF_MSgt]

Last time I checked, I could do push-ups, sit-ups, and go for a run just about anywhere. I understand your desire for the gym to be open 24/7, but the fact that it's closed doesn't prevent you from getting a work out in.

[CrustySMSgt]

Well I definently think the PT argument is the most blown out of proportion program going on right now. You know, the kind that every officer or senior NCO jumps on the bandwagon for that next promotion. However, you do have a great point in that most bases do not have a 24 hour gym. I think thats called irony, or supervision really doesn't care. They are just running their mouths so they don't get kicked out of the "good ole boy" club. From what I've seen it's about a 50/50 split between those who really want pt and those who are just spewing it out so not to be seen as a trouble maker when retirement is so close.

Every place I have been there have been numerous usage studies done regarding services facilities. They extend the hours, and then count the number of bodies using the facility during each hour. When usage drops, they cut the hours. FSS personnel are stretched just as thin as everyone else... and to dedicate manpower to having the gym open all night for a couple people to use it doesn't make sense.


Last time I checked, I could do push-ups, sit-ups, and go for a run just about anywhere. I understand your desire for the gym to be open 24/7, but the fact that it's closed doesn't prevent you from getting a work out in.

yup

[BRAVO10000]

Every place I have been there have been numerous usage studies done regarding services facilities. They extend the hours, and then count the number of bodies using the facility during each hour. When usage drops, they cut the hours. FSS personnel are stretched just as thin as everyone else... and to dedicate manpower to having the gym open all night for a couple people to use it doesn't make sense.

You're right about that - shift workers get screwed, but how many people are going to the gym outside of duty hours? Not many. And you're right - there's always SOME training that can be done without a gym. I realize that you shouldn't practice the test for every work out (hear that, PTLs?) but there are still options.

[Silver Fox]

Couldn't they just contract it to someone and have them hire people to man it 24/7? It's what they do with everything else, and then we might actually get physical fitness experts in there....

[Silver Fox]

Last time I checked, I could do push-ups, sit-ups, and go for a run just about anywhere. I understand your desire for the gym to be open 24/7, but the fact that it's closed doesn't prevent you from getting a work out in.

I never said it did, but for those of us who actually work out.... :eek: it'd be nice.

I joined a gym off base, better hours. And I'm not a 'meathead', I'm not overly muscular or huge, I just like to stay fit and not look like a fat ass. I'm the kind of guy that if I don't change it up, I get bored.

Push ups, sit ups, run 4 -5 times a week? No thanks. I'd get sick of it in about two weeks. I know there's variations on those exercises but still.... real fitness involves a broader range of exercises.

[CrustySMSgt]

Couldn't they just contract it to someone and have them hire people to man it 24/7? It's what they do with everything else, and then we might actually get physical fitness experts in there....

When we're cutting aircraft & people, kind of hard to ask for $$ to make that happen... (Waiting for VFF to chime in with his usual "stop buying plamsa screen TV" suggestion... rofl :D )

It all comes down to usage. Nothing personal towards you... but in general, people bitch about what they don't have, but when it is made available, they don't get off their ass & use it. Seen it too many times. While playing 1st Sgt, people would bitch all the time that the CDC wasn't open during wing events like dining ins & such... so they went ahead and contracted it to be open, based on the "public outcry" and the night of the event, less than a handfull of people actually used it. Most SVS (OK, FSS) are pretty good about meeting the needs of their customers... and work to expand hours based on needs and actual usage. That is why they come through the gym and count customers every hour or so... put "asses in the seats" and they will likely accomodate. But more often than not, the end result is, most people are all talk.

[Roll_Tide]

Until the flying schedule is scheduled around PT then this is going to be an ongoing problem. I completely agree with the original PT mandates that were in the very first post, as the guy said it is supported and they are given ample time to PT. The problem most people are having is that they are applying those standards to their work week but as AF_MSGT said his squadron gives the time so for "his" squadron it is a great idea. You can put me into the category of people who wished PT was harder and the waist went away and I really wish the EPR had 4 blocks for PT to go along with your score (proving the waist went away) and everyone had to complete it within a month of your close out to make it fair across the board. I can't see why we are expected to excel with every other block but focus on Pass/Fail with PT. I know there will be several people who are against this but the truth of the matter is that if I am equal to one of my peers in every block (meaning all the way to the right) and I score a 95 and he gets a 75 I think there should be a system that recognizes me for "clearly exceeding" that category.

[AF Chief]

When we're cutting aircraft & people, kind of hard to ask for $$ to make that happen... (Waiting for VFF to chime in with his usual "stop buying plamsa screen TV" suggestion... rofl :D )

It all comes down to usage. Nothing personal towards you... but in general, people bitch about what they don't have, but when it is made available, they don't get off their ass & use it. Seen it too many times.


Hear! Hear! :D

[BRAVO10000]

You can put me into the category of people who wished PT was harder and the waist went away and I really wish the EPR had 4 blocks for PT to go along with your score (proving the waist went away) and everyone had to complete it within a month of your close out to make it fair across the board. I can't see why we are expected to excel with every other block but focus on Pass/Fail with PT. I know there will be several people who are against this but the truth of the matter is that if I am equal to one of my peers in every block (meaning all the way to the right) and I score a 95 and he gets a 75 I think there should be a system that recognizes me for "clearly exceeding" that category.

So my guess is that you're a 95+. Congratulations. There IS a system that recognizes you "clearly exceeding" that category. That system is called "bragging rights"; unfortunately, it is currently a mis-applied halo effect-generating fallacy.

Problem #1 here is that we've already agreed across the board that the PT standard is flawed. Based on your proposal, a guy could land on block 3 of 4 without doing a single pushup or situp. Until they find a way to measure FITNESS versus run time, I think this won't work. Either that or change the EPR block to indicate how fast someone is.

Problem #2 iis illustrated perfectly - the example infers to me an assumption that EPRs be marked down "all the way to the right"....damn, are EPRs inflated? You don't say. But an EPR is a SUBJECTIVE EVALUATION by the rater, not a scoresheet. There's no metric to measure how well my guys do their jobs, or to put a score on their community service. There's no mathematical formula for their leadership, no quantifiable way to say that a guy is ready for the next rank.

There's a single measure for overall compliance with standards. In the case of me people, I get to decide how they measure up...and that's what I get paid to do. I didn't agree when fitness was called out independently; I don't see this idea as having any return on investment now.

Seriously, it is great that you are exceeding standards in fitness. But understand that most of us don't agree that the PT test or the scores on those tests meet our needs. And scoring a 95 vice a 75 doesn't make someone more capable of leading, which is what an EPR is suposed to assess.

[smarg]

Until the flying schedule is scheduled around PT then this is going to be an ongoing problem. I completely agree with the original PT mandates that were in the very first post, as the guy said it is supported and they are given ample time to PT. The problem most people are having is that they are applying those standards to their work week but as AF_MSGT said his squadron gives the time so for "his" squadron it is a great idea. You can put me into the category of people who wished PT was harder and the waist went away and I really wish the EPR had 4 blocks for PT to go along with your score (proving the waist went away) and everyone had to complete it within a month of your close out to make it fair across the board. I can't see why we are expected to excel with every other block but focus on Pass/Fail with PT. I know there will be several people who are against this but the truth of the matter is that if I am equal to one of my peers in every block (meaning all the way to the right) and I score a 95 and he gets a 75 I think there should be a system that recognizes me for "clearly exceeding" that category.

As long as the AF has maintenance, whiners will be there to remind us all about rules and regulations. Maybe we need to just contract them all out....naaah. I like torturing them. :D

[Roll_Tide]

Problem #1 here is that we've already agreed across the board that the PT standard is flawed. Based on your proposal, a guy could land on block 3 of 4 without doing a single pushup or situp. Until they find a way to measure FITNESS versus run time, I think this won't work. Either that or change the EPR block to indicate how fast someone is.

Problem #2 iis illustrated perfectly - the example infers to me an assumption that EPRs be marked down "all the way to the right"....damn, are EPRs inflated? You don't say. But an EPR is a SUBJECTIVE EVALUATION by the rater, not a scoresheet. There's no metric to measure how well my guys do their jobs, or to put a score on their community service. There's no mathematical formula for their leadership, no quantifiable way to say that a guy is ready for the next rank.

There's a single measure for overall compliance with standards. In the case of me people, I get to decide how they measure up...and that's what I get paid to do. I didn't agree when fitness was called out independently; I don't see this idea as having any return on investment now.




I completely agree with your problem # 1 and 2 to a point but I view things a little different. I don't see the EPR as just a measure of leadership, there are a lot more blocks that I won't list but they have more to do than just a member’s leadership. I agree the EPR is subjective and there is no metric to gauge community service but if you have one guy that volunteers 100 hours in a year and one guy who volunteers once for 4 hours while technically fill the same block, the fist guys clearly exceeds, thats how he got a 5 and the other a 3 or 4, right? It all depends on how subjective the rater or even if it was the same rater. But when one guys bust is tail and gets a 95 while another half asses it because all he needs is a 75 gets the same rating in the individual’s evaluation of his performance. I don't think just because it takes the guess work out of for raters it shouldn't be included. If more of the blocks were set up this way it would do away with the inflation of the whole system but as you said it is subjective, and therefore subject to indulgence.

I know the system we have now is flawed but it is the system we have and the PT system clearly has different ratings to acknowledge people who do better, so why isn't their performance report for that rating period included into that very same acknowledgment? Because like you said the EPR is subjective which to me makes it more of the problem than the answer.

I am not in any way advocating the PT system is right, it works, or that in my idea would work but you can’t have a system in place (EPR) that evaluates your level of performance and not evaluate the level of your performance when it comes to something that is a part of our job, mission, daily life and instructions just because there is no way to be subjective on the outcome.

[Angry Irishman]

Well I definently think the PT argument is the most blown out of proportion program going on right now. You know, the kind that every officer or senior NCO jumps on the bandwagon for that next promotion. However, you do have a great point in that most bases do not have a 24 hour gym. I think thats called irony, or supervision really doesn't care. They are just running their mouths so they don't get kicked out of the "good ole boy" club. From what I've seen it's about a 50/50 split between those who really want pt and those who are just spewing it out so not to be seen as a trouble maker when retirement is so close.

Yup....that's a bit oversimplified but reasonably accurate. If someone suggested wearing underwear on our heads there would be plenty who would say it's the best idea ever. Most of the SNCOs I work with have bigger problems to worry about than the dorked up PT program.

[Silver Fox]

When we're cutting aircraft & people, kind of hard to ask for $$ to make that happen... (Waiting for VFF to chime in with his usual "stop buying plamsa screen TV" suggestion... rofl :D )

It all comes down to usage. Nothing personal towards you... but in general, people bitch about what they don't have, but when it is made available, they don't get off their ass & use it. Seen it too many times. While playing 1st Sgt, people would bitch all the time that the CDC wasn't open during wing events like dining ins & such... so they went ahead and contracted it to be open, based on the "public outcry" and the night of the event, less than a handfull of people actually used it. Most SVS (OK, FSS) are pretty good about meeting the needs of their customers... and work to expand hours based on needs and actual usage. That is why they come through the gym and count customers every hour or so... put "asses in the seats" and they will likely accomodate. But more often than not, the end result is, most people are all talk.

Isn't the excuse to contract everything because it's cheaper?

Also, if other squadrons with shift workers didn't have their own private gyms this wouldn't be a problem, there'd be WAY more people needing a 24 hour gym.

I've been too many places where the med clinics, fire stations, and even SF Confinement facilities all have their own private fitness centers they've somehow managed to acquire, leaving the rest of the normal shift workers (read: regular cops) as the only people needing a 24 hour fitness center, and I don't have to tell you no one gives a crap about us.

Hell, at my deployed location we didn't even have a 24 hour gym, but somehow the fire department was left a key to use after hours whenever they wanted, but no one else got to partake in it.

[Measure Man]

Problem #2 iis illustrated perfectly - the example infers to me an assumption that EPRs be marked down "all the way to the right"....damn, are EPRs inflated? You don't say. But an EPR is a SUBJECTIVE EVALUATION by the rater, not a scoresheet. There's no metric to measure how well my guys do their jobs, or to put a score on their community service. There's no mathematical formula for their leadership, no quantifiable way to say that a guy is ready for the next rank.

There are certainly metrics to measure how well guys to their jobs...the AF just doesn't enforce their use like they do with PT. Let's enforce other objective tests in the same manner as the PT test on our EPRs.

1. Job Performance - Everyone should get an annual QA eval Stan/eval or equivalent...if you fail, you should get a referral EPR, retest until you pass...fail 4 of them, separated from the AF. Get a minor...you shouldn't be marked to the far right. Shouldn't job performance be more important than PT?

2. Job Knowledge - We already take an SKT. Standardize it every year...use the most recent for promotion...but make the standard 75...score less than that and get a referral EPR and retest in 42 days. Fail to get a 75 4 times, separate from the AF. Why is your job knowledge results a "private conversation between you and the commander" while something like a health eval (PT test) open to your supervisor, shop chief, flight chief etc? Shouldn't job knowledge be at least as important as PT?

3. Training requirements--publish PME scores as part of your record...obviously if you flunk out, referral EPR. Why should someone who scores a 95 in PME get the same grade as someone who scores 85? That should be more important than PT.

4. Leadership--use the results of any major inspections for your area...get a SAT on your UCI...get a SAT on your EPR. That should be more important than PT.

Oh...and while we are it...let's have all the PT test heroes look at their latest SKT...if you are below 75, you should consider yourself a poor excuse for an NCO...it measures job knowledge...so I don't give a flying f about your 95 PT score if you don't know your job.

[AlanW]

Measure Man,

I kind of like the direction you are going in (to toughen up standards), but I think that you were being a bit sarcastic?

I like the idea about requiring a QA stan eval for Job Performance. However,I feel that eval cannot be the end all in determining EPR score. Anyway, it should defintely be a factor.

One of the problems with your post is that PT is a pass/fail on the EPR, so it’s not like anyone actually gets a markdown on a PT test (unless they fail). The concern I had with your post is the numbers that you are using. For example, 98% of the Air Force gets a 75% on the PT test (so basically all Airman can do that fairly easily). However, (just a guess) but less than 10% get over a 75 on their SKT (not many Airman score that high). I think that scoring <75 on a SKT test should not be a referral EPR, and I am sure many would concur with me on that.

Also, I did not like the idea of a UCI grade being the end all for leadership. There are many factors that go into leadership, and a UCI is just a small fraction. Also, UCI’s do not occur every year, and sometimes we PCS into a base that is gettomg ready to have a UCI. Should a person who is PSCing into a UCI be penalized for a SAT, or rewarded for an Outstanding? Can you imagine if a UCI was the end all factor in an EPR score….how many people would be going crazy during the UCI…the poor inspectors may not walk out of the base alive

I kind of wish the entire EPR was just a pass/fail all the way through, just like the PT section. I have a feeling that when a board is reviewing old EPR’s for promotion they can separate true firewall 5’s (by how they are written) compared to those EPR’s that have a firewall 5, but are weakly written.

[Measure Man]

Measure Man,

I kind of like the direction you are going in (to toughen up standards), but I think that you were being a bit sarcastic?

Okay...you did pick up on my sarcasm. Although, I think the principle should apply. My point really is that we overemphasize PT and don't do that with the stuff that really matters...or matters more I should say...cuz PT matters, but not as much as we make it out.


I like the idea about requiring a QA stan eval for Job Performance. However,I feel that eval cannot be the end all in determining EPR score. Anyway, it should defintely be a factor.

If PT failures demand referral EPRs...so should QA failures. I don't necessarily think either one should require referral, but...since one does, the other should.


One of the problems with your post is that PT is a pass/fail on the EPR, so it’s not like anyone actually gets a markdown on a PT test (unless they fail). The concern I had with your post is the numbers that you are using. For example, 98% of the Air Force gets a 75% on the PT test (so basically all Airman can do that fairly easily). However, (just a guess) but less than 10% get over a 75 on their SKT (not many Airman score that high). I think that scoring <75 on a SKT test should not be a referral EPR, and I am sure many would concur with me on that.

If we spent as much time preparing for the SKT that we do for the PT...it should be a breeze. But, yeah, I purposely put that in there to get a reaction from people who score a 95 on their PT and are braggin on what great NCOs they are while scoring 65 on their SKT.


Also, I did not like the idea of a UCI grade being the end all for leadership. There are many factors that go into leadership, and a UCI is just a small fraction. Also, UCI’s do not occur every year, and sometimes we PCS into a base that is gettomg ready to have a UCI. Should a person who is PSCing into a UCI be penalized for a SAT, or rewarded for an Outstanding? Can you imagine if a UCI was the end all factor in an EPR score….how many people would be going crazy during the UCI…the poor inspectors may not walk out of the base alive

yeah...I'm just tired of poor inspection results being ignored on EPRs...and only great results reported.



I kind of wish the entire EPR was just a pass/fail all the way through, just like the PT section. I have a feeling that when a board is reviewing old EPR’s for promotion they can separate true firewall 5’s (by how they are written) compared to those EPR’s that have a firewall 5, but are weakly written.

I don't agree with a pass/fail EPR...then you just end up with a shopping list. I just think a little more teeth need to be added to some of the other evals we have in our day to day life...instead of just the PT test.

[BRAVO10000]

I know the system we have now is flawed but it is the system we have and the PT system clearly has different ratings to acknowledge people who do better, so why isn't their performance report for that rating period included into that very same acknowledgment? Because like you said the EPR is subjective which to me makes it more of the problem than the answer.

I am not in any way advocating the PT system is right, it works, or that in my idea would work but you can’t have a system in place (EPR) that evaluates your level of performance and not evaluate the level of your performance when it comes to something that is a part of our job, mission, daily life and instructions just because there is no way to be subjective on the outcome.

Understood but I'll have to stand my ground here.

The EPR does depend on the rater's assessment. As it should. Think second and third order effects. Let's say a maintainer is on 6 x 12s for a year, while a peer in the same AFSC is instructing at tech school. Which one has more time to pursue academics? Based on the argument of quantification, the guy working straight day-ho hours has more time and availability to do so but still comes out on top. There's always the example of a 1-year deployer that sees a red or black flag flying every morning...how much PT training is this guy going to get done? The only way to inject sanity to that process it to empower the rater to make it right.

And again - that higher PT score does not make you a better leader (think extreme...Winston Churchhill for example). If you create a checklist for promotion a la threshhold scores, then we remove the subjectivity. Promotions become milestones, rather than as a way to advance those that have demonstrated that they are ready for advancement.

[Roll_Tide]

Understood but I'll have to stand my ground here.

The EPR does depend on the rater's assessment. As it should. Think second and third order effects. Let's say a maintainer is on 6 x 12s for a year, while a peer in the same AFSC is instructing at tech school. Which one has more time to pursue academics? Based on the argument of quantification, the guy working straight day-ho hours has more time and availability to do so but still comes out on top. There's always the example of a 1-year deployer that sees a red or black flag flying every morning...how much PT training is this guy going to get done? The only way to inject sanity to that process it to empower the rater to make it right.

And again - that higher PT score does not make you a better leader (think extreme...Winston Churchhill for example). If you create a checklist for promotion a la threshhold scores, then we remove the subjectivity. Promotions become milestones, rather than as a way to advance those that have demonstrated that they are ready for advancement.


We'll have to agree to disagree on this. I don't see the EPR as a leadership quality tool as much as it is an evaluation of how you perform in your duties (yes leadership is one of those but not the end all be all) I completely agree with your example ( I am a fighter crew chief and I know exactly how hard it is or easier based on where you work to accomplish off duty activities) I am not trying to go back and fourth here but hypothetically if there was a person who had the same leadership qualities as Churchill and both had firewall 5's, there should be some way to acknowledge the other guy if he scores 30 points higher on a PT test. My only point here is not whether or not someone is better at some things or not, its that if two people are equal in all things but one clearly exceeds the PT standard, there should be away for that person to stand out ahead of his peers. I know where you are coming from and I respect your opinion and I feel your answer is right because that's the system we have in place and I wouldn't hold anyone for or against their PT score (as long as they pass) on an EPR but like I said I disagree.

[BRAVO10000]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. I don't see the EPR as a leadership quality tool as much as it is an evaluation of how you perform in your duties (yes leadership is one of those but not the end all be all) I completely agree with your example ( I am a fighter crew chief and I know exactly how hard it is or easier based on where you work to accomplish off duty activities) I am not trying to go back and fourth here but hypothetically if there was a person who had the same leadership qualities as Churchill and both had firewall 5's, there should be some way to acknowledge the other guy if he scores 30 points higher on a PT test. My only point here is not whether or not someone is better at some things or not, its that if two people are equal in all things but one clearly exceeds the PT standard, there should be away for that person to stand out ahead of his peers. I know where you are coming from and I respect your opinion and I feel your answer is right because that's the system we have in place and I wouldn't hold anyone for or against their PT score (as long as they pass) on an EPR but like I said I disagree.


I feel what you're saying. But I think that if we're ever going to go back to evaluating PT on a graduated scale, we'll have to find a better balance in the scoring...one that has minimums in each category and one that allows you to earn extra points in each category. It isn't a PT test right now, it is a running test (50%).

I think the whole idea behind the pass/fail standard was probably to prevent overemphasis and a culture of equating PT to leadership or promotability. Just a guess tho.

[sigecaps]

If you allowed PT scores on EPRs, than the fitness block woulds have a granularity advantage to all the other fields since the scores are based on a 100 point scale where the other fields are based on a 5 point scale. This will unintentionally raise the importance of the fitness block above all other fields. If you don't understand why, here's an example.

Let's say you have three blocks. In this first scenario the first two blocks have two options, "meet" and "does not meet". The last block as five options, "does not meet", "needs improvement", "average", "above average", "outstanding". In this example Airman A receives a meet, meet, average rating. Airman B receives a meet, meet, outstanding rating. Who is the "better" Airman? Well in this scenario clearly Airman B.

But now let's see what could happen if the granularity for all blocks was even, and to do that all blocks must five options. Now instead of just saying "meets" for the first two blocks, Airman A's rater has five options to pick from for all blocks and can better capture his ratee's performance. Airman A receives an outstanding, outstanding, average. Airman B's supervisor does the same. Airman B now receives an average, average, outstanding. It's important to note that nothing changed between the scenarios except for the rating system. So who really was the better Airman? Airman A. And why didn't we pick that up in the first scenario? Because of the granularity disadvantage the first two blocks had in that scenario.

This is why equal granularity is important. Allowing one to have more granularity gives it an inherent bias. If you really feel that strongly about PT, argue for basing it on a five point scale like the other fields. You could probably even come up with some sort of formula to hand out marks (eg 1 = <75, 2 = 75-80, 3 = 81-90, 4 = 91-99, 5 = 100), but flat out putting the scores on the EPR is an unreasonable elevation of PT's importance.

[CrustySMSgt]

This is why equal granularity is important. Allowing one to have more granularity gives it an inherent bias. If you really feel that strongly about PT, argue for basing it on a five point scale like the other fields. You could probably even come up with some sort of formula to hand out marks (eg 1 = <75, 2 = 75-80, 3 = 81-90, 4 = 91-99, 5 = 100), but flat out putting the scores on the exam is an unreasonable elevation of PT's importance.

I've said before, I wouldn't mind seeing something like this in place to give some incentive to strive for a better score. It would be a small perk, but wouldn't allow PT to be overly important. Though for under 75, why would you give even 1 point? It is a referal EPR, they should get 0 points.

[sigecaps]

I've said before, I wouldn't mind seeing something like this in place to give some incentive to strive for a better score. It would be a small perk, but wouldn't allow PT to be overly important. Though for under 75, why would you give even 1 point? It is a referal EPR, they should get 0 points.

A mark all the way to the left ("1") is the equivalent of "does not meet" I thought. :confused:

[CrustySMSgt]

A mark all the way to the left ("1") is the equivalent of "does not meet" I thought. :confused:

My mistake... I confused what you were saying with actually giving points on WAPS. I got distracted by your 1-5 scale... which is a common miscommunication, given there are only FOUR blocks on the FRONT of the EPR, and then an overall 5 point rating on the back.

[sigecaps]

My mistake... I confused what you were saying with actually giving points on WAPS. I got distracted by your 1-5 scale... which is a common miscommunication, given there are only FOUR blocks on the FRONT of the EPR, and then an overall 5 point rating on the back.

Mea Cupla. I haven't slept yet. :tongue:

[Hydroguy87]

Well, for what they are worth, here are my thoughts after 22 yr of service.
1) There is nothing wrong with wanting to get promoted. However, that desire should not come at the expense of your people. You will get promoted quicker by taking care of your people, and not having 75% of them hate you.
2)You stated that every member of your unit has the opportunity to PT 3xs a wk. SO, your commander should develope a policy that everyone will PT, attendance will be taken, and that all sessions will be led by PTLs. This will eliminate those people passing and then sitting on thier duffs for the next 10 months. This would be a better option, in my opinion, for the commander to achieve his desired results and not be seen as an evil dictator.
3) Normally, people making life style changes are less likely to maintain that life style if it is shoved so far down thier throat that they quickly become sick of it! History proves this in many different scenarios. It is becoming more and more popluar when it comes to PT and AFSO-21. Both are great programs, but leaders are pushing them so far down peoples throats that they simply don't care anymore.
It is possible to have a successful and enjoyable PT program that is both effective, and at least twice per month...FUN.