Rumor Mill: New PT policy to go in effect this summer, New scoring system etc

[Sgt HULK]

SO we were "Briefed" this Friday that an Individual within our unit is currently at the SNCO academy and he wrote back to tell us that the CMSAF McKinley was at the academy and discussed the NEW PT POLICY

Starting this summer, we will be tested twice a yr. Max points for the waist are now at 35 inches However the max points dropped to 20. 20 for waist 10 for push and 10 for sit. All emphasis will be on the run now. Scoring will go in diff increments as well but I stopped paying attention after my disappointment with no change in focus on strength.


I was really hoping someone woulda listened to that captain in this weeks af times about his version of the PT test Half Mile run, 30lb Dumb lift, Push up etc. He called it Combat PT test.

Just what i was told.

[Modus]

Interesting. I should go from a 90 to like a 95 now lol.

[takthekak]

well, here's my two cents...I have seen the change to the bike test and heard all the reasons back then for going to it. For years we were the laughing stock of the DoD and no one knew really if it was fair or how to pass it...You could not mention PT on an epr, until they changed back to the run test and updated the EPR and now not only is it on the EPR, but if you get below 75 (used to be 70), you get a referral EPR. If you get a 75 or 100, no one cares, becuase most bases have no incentive to excel. In the last 4 years, I got 3 100's and 1 99.5...who cares...scores aren't on the EPR's. I got 1 t-shirt to show for it and for a short period was excused from mandatory 3 day PT, but then I was ordered back to PT, becuase they thought I could help out other people. After about 16 years of watching things come and go I feel the AF just doesn't get it. The other services have PT built into their culture, we do not. The goal of the PT program has always been to get people to build a healthy lifestyle for themselves, if people do not, they will suffere the consequences. I am pretty numb by now to watch the AF change everything under the sun every single year. I just do not care anymore...1 test, 2 tests a year, so what...that's supposed to achieve some affect, I doubt it...

[Pueblo]

Interesting. I should go from a 90 to like a 95 now lol.

Me too. Still a useless policy, though. And the HAWC's handling of annual PT tests has been catastrophic from a strictly clerical standpoint. So how in the hell are they going to handle twice a year?

[4Runner]

We were told the same thing. Except, HAWC will conduct all tests and there will be a 1 year phase in period. Focus from the HAWC will be the strict form of the excercise. The HAWC will also track scores below 70 making it harder for commanders and supervisors to side step the accountability. Overall, sounds like a re-hash of the current program.

[BigBaze]

Me too. Still a useless policy, though. And the HAWC's handling of annual PT tests has been catastrophic from a strictly clerical standpoint. So how in the hell are they going to handle twice a year?


They can't, when I go in to ask them a basic question they either are not there or just direct me to the fitness center personnel..

[Numrich]

Me too. Still a useless policy, though. And the HAWC's handling of annual PT tests has been catastrophic from a strictly clerical standpoint. So how in the hell are they going to handle twice a year?

Each base will have augmentee's just like SF Auggies. Plan on loosing people from your unit to support this task.

[Pueblo]

If the intent with the HAWC is impartiality, that will be negated by augmentees.

[smarg]

Shoulda left the whole got damn thing alone, it was fine. Army Abu Ghraib-wannabees ruined a well-running, predictable program.

Bytchez. grrrrrrrrrr

[CrustySMSgt]

If the intent with the HAWC is impartiality, that will be negated by augmentees.

If it is done the way PACAF is doing it, the augmentees are only present to help herd the cats and for course safety. The contracted fitness test monitors do all the actual counting/scoring.

[Pueblo]

If it is done the way PACAF is doing it, the augmentees are only present to help herd the cats and for course safety. The contracted fitness test monitors do all the actual counting/scoring.

Fair enough, but the PACAF HAWC's shortcomings are not in herding cats and course safety. Their problem lies in day to day clerical issues. They can't test the people they need to test and schedule the poor fits as required when people are testing annualy. How will they be able to handle double the volume?

[CrustySMSgt]

Fair enough, but the PACAF HAWC's shortcomings are not in herding cats and course safety. Their problem lies in day to day clerical issues. They can't test the people they need to test and schedule the poor fits as required when people are testing annualy. How will they be able to handle double the volume?

Not sure what base you are refering to, but here they are getting the bugs worked out of their program. Testing was taking ~4 hours to complete; I think they are closer to 2 hours now. The program has only been in place command wide for a month now, so obviously it will take time to streamline to process. Same will apply when they've got to double the input... may result in having to double the number of civilians hired... but then if it is an AF-wide initiative, then it'll be budgeted for at the AF level.

I still think it is a great inititive and a step in the right direction.

[BRUWIN]

I'm really discouraged by all that is going on with this PT program. I don't understand why it's as critical as it is. Keep in mind....I've never failed the test or been on the fat boy program in 27 years of service. I've scored as low as 77 and I've scored as high as 98.5 two years ago. I just took it a few weeks back and I got an 80.25. I knew exactly what I needed to do so I wouldn't get below 80 because you never know....the rules might change AGAIN and I get dragged over to the HAWC to be briefed that I'm a total loser.

I think I mentioned in another post that I took a practice test a few weeks prior to my official test and I didn't know it was being officially tracked and documented on an excel spreadsheet. I scored like a 79.50....PASSING....and next thing I know my name appears in yellow on the sheet as "borderline". Who cares???? It's passing!!!!! I just don't get it. Even when you pass people want to point out that you only passed as "borderline". I told my CC that we have enough problems dealing with all the people that fail...do we have to highlight people for further scrutiny that still actually pass?

We have all these people that seem to want the use the PT program as a tool to make people's lives miserable. And now we are paying big bucks to bring contractors in and count pushups for us? Don't get me wrong...I believe in the idea that people need to stay fit. But you got all these gung ho PT types running around that think it's everything. I'm kinda of sick of it all. OK...I'm a Chief and I should be on board...and to a certain extent I am. But thanks to all the GI joes running around in the AF thinking we need to be like the Army this entire program is being totally overemphasized.

Yeah...fat people should be identified and be held to a weight standard...but all this running around three times a week with chants, pushups, and people looking at you funny when you pick up a doughnut is getting ridiculous.

[BRAVO10000]

I'm really discouraged by all that is going on with this PT program. I don't understand why it's as critical as it is. Keep in mind....I've never failed the test or been on the fat boy program in 26 years of service. I've scored as low as 77 and I've scored as high as 98.5. I just took it a few weeks back and I got an 80.25. I knew exactly what I needed to do so I wouldn't get below 80 because you never know....the rules might change AGAIN and I get dragged over to the HAWC to be briefed that I'm a total loser.

I think I mentioned in another post that I took a practice test a few weeks prior to my official test and I didn't think it was being officially tracked and documented on an excel spreadsheet. I scored like a 79.50....PASSING....and next thing I know my name appears in yellow on the sheet as "borderline". Who cares???? It's passing!!!!! I just don't get it. Even when you pass people want to point out that you only passed as "borderline". I told my CC that we have enough problems dealing with all the people that fail...do we have to highlight people for further scrutiny that still actually pass?

We have all these people that seem to want the use the PT program as a tool to make people's lives miserable. Don't get me wrong...I believe in the idea that people need to stay fit. But you got all these gung ho PT types running around that think it's everything. I'm kinda of sick of it all. OK...I'm a Chief and I should be on board...and to a certain extent I am. But thanks to all the GI joes running around in the AF thinking we need to be like the Army I think this entire program is being totally overemphasized. Yeah...fat people should be identified and be held to a weight standard...but all this running around three times a week with chants, pushups, and people looking at you funny when you pick up a doughnut is getting ridiculous.

You're right, Bruwin - it is a sticky wicket. I mean, we're supposed to tow the company line...but at what point do we stop changing it up, set the bar, enforce it and move on? We have big enough problems without harassing those that are passing, whether it is close or not. If we set that bar at 90, they'll scrutinize anyone between an 90 and a 95. I am about sick of this sh*t too. It is all about the compliance rates as shown on PowerPoint slides to the next-level leadership.

I mean - for f*ck's sake - the AF has set a standard. If I am meeting or exceeding it, then please f*ck off and leave me alone. If my guys are doing the work and passing their PT tests, then mind your own damn business and let them be adults.

If my demeanor isn't a giveaway...I am up at 0400 3 times a week (and that includes today) to make it to "remedial PT" because I scored below an 80 on a practice test. That earns me an extra few hours at the gym under the supervision of a snot-nosed PTL that couldn't really give a sh*t less this early in the morning.

Bleh.

[sweatyAZ]

I'm really discouraged by all that is going on with this PT program. I don't understand why it's as critical as it is. Keep in mind....I've never failed the test or been on the fat boy program in 27 years of service. I've scored as low as 77 and I've scored as high as 98.5 two years ago. I just took it a few weeks back and I got an 80.25. I knew exactly what I needed to do so I wouldn't get below 80 because you never know....the rules might change AGAIN and I get dragged over to the HAWC to be briefed that I'm a total loser.

I think I mentioned in another post that I took a practice test a few weeks prior to my official test and I didn't know it was being officially tracked and documented on an excel spreadsheet. I scored like a 79.50....PASSING....and next thing I know my name appears in yellow on the sheet as "borderline". Who cares???? It's passing!!!!! I just don't get it. Even when you pass people want to point out that you only passed as "borderline". I told my CC that we have enough problems dealing with all the people that fail...do we have to highlight people for further scrutiny that still actually pass?

We have all these people that seem to want the use the PT program as a tool to make people's lives miserable. And now we are paying big bucks to bring contractors in and count pushups for us? Don't get me wrong...I believe in the idea that people need to stay fit. But you got all these gung ho PT types running around that think it's everything. I'm kinda of sick of it all. OK...I'm a Chief and I should be on board...and to a certain extent I am. But thanks to all the GI joes running around in the AF thinking we need to be like the Army this entire program is being totally overemphasized.

Yeah...fat people should be identified and be held to a weight standard...but all this running around three times a week with chants, pushups, and people looking at you funny when you pick up a doughnut is getting ridiculous.

AMEN Bruwin!!

As for Mckinley....SWING and a MISS!! but what does he really care, it's going to be someone elses problem shortly.

[Shrike]

I'm really discouraged by all that is going on with this PT program. I don't understand why it's as critical as it is. Keep in mind....I've never failed the test or been on the fat boy program in 27 years of service. I've scored as low as 77 and I've scored as high as 98.5 two years ago. I just took it a few weeks back and I got an 80.25. I knew exactly what I needed to do so I wouldn't get below 80 because you never know....the rules might change AGAIN and I get dragged over to the HAWC to be briefed that I'm a total loser.

I think I mentioned in another post that I took a practice test a few weeks prior to my official test and I didn't know it was being officially tracked and documented on an excel spreadsheet. I scored like a 79.50....PASSING....and next thing I know my name appears in yellow on the sheet as "borderline". Who cares???? It's passing!!!!! I just don't get it. Even when you pass people want to point out that you only passed as "borderline". I told my CC that we have enough problems dealing with all the people that fail...do we have to highlight people for further scrutiny that still actually pass?

We have all these people that seem to want the use the PT program as a tool to make people's lives miserable. And now we are paying big bucks to bring contractors in and count pushups for us? Don't get me wrong...I believe in the idea that people need to stay fit. But you got all these gung ho PT types running around that think it's everything. I'm kinda of sick of it all. OK...I'm a Chief and I should be on board...and to a certain extent I am. But thanks to all the GI joes running around in the AF thinking we need to be like the Army this entire program is being totally overemphasized.

Yeah...fat people should be identified and be held to a weight standard...but all this running around three times a week with chants, pushups, and people looking at you funny when you pick up a doughnut is getting ridiculous.


<applauding>

George Carlin once said "When it comes to ideas, Americans can be counted on to do two things. Take a good idea and run it completely into the ground, or take a bad idea and run it completely into the ground."

Over the last eight or nine years, the USAF has absolutely excelled in doing both.


Professionally, I encourage fitness amongst my troops (yes, TROOPS!) and keep myself above standards. Personally, I could give two shits how fit someone is as long as they can get their job done. If your job is to put on full battle gear and go on patrol or rescue downed airmen, you need to be fit enough to do that job. If you load weapons onto aircraft, you need to be fit enough to do that job. If you run fiber cable through buildings, you need to be fit enough to do that job.

Encourage fitness, and give people time to be fit. Identify those with an unprofessional image, and get them in the programs to help them get back within standards. Separate those who continually fail to meet the weight standard.

But stop f$cking with the test, stop pretending that PT is suddenly so vital, and for Pete's sake stop thinking we need to be like the Army!

The USAF performed stunningly well for the first 50+ years of its existence while focusing on technical knowledge and skills over martial skills, being the least "military" of the military branches, and generally focusing on performance over appearance. Since OIF/OEF kicked off and the Army and Marines started being the center of attention, this has changed and our focus has shifted. Perhaps it's just a coincidence that we've seen a decline in the USAF since then. But I for one don't think it's a coincidence at all.

[CrustySMSgt]

I'm really discouraged by all that is going on with this PT program. I don't understand why it's as critical as it is. Keep in mind....I've never failed the test or been on the fat boy program in 27 years of service. I've scored as low as 77 and I've scored as high as 98.5 two years ago. I just took it a few weeks back and I got an 80.25. I knew exactly what I needed to do so I wouldn't get below 80 because you never know....the rules might change AGAIN and I get dragged over to the HAWC to be briefed that I'm a total loser.

I think I mentioned in another post that I took a practice test a few weeks prior to my official test and I didn't know it was being officially tracked and documented on an excel spreadsheet. I scored like a 79.50....PASSING....and next thing I know my name appears in yellow on the sheet as "borderline". Who cares???? It's passing!!!!! I just don't get it. Even when you pass people want to point out that you only passed as "borderline". I told my CC that we have enough problems dealing with all the people that fail...do we have to highlight people for further scrutiny that still actually pass?

We have all these people that seem to want the use the PT program as a tool to make people's lives miserable. And now we are paying big bucks to bring contractors in and count pushups for us? Don't get me wrong...I believe in the idea that people need to stay fit. But you got all these gung ho PT types running around that think it's everything. I'm kinda of sick of it all. OK...I'm a Chief and I should be on board...and to a certain extent I am. But thanks to all the GI joes running around in the AF thinking we need to be like the Army this entire program is being totally overemphasized.

Yeah...fat people should be identified and be held to a weight standard...but all this running around three times a week with chants, pushups, and people looking at you funny when you pick up a doughnut is getting ridiculous.

WHile I generally agree... I will just say that someone with a borderline score is 1 bad day away from being on the other side of the line. a good headwind is the only difference between a 77 & a 74. (I am generalizing and didn't actually look at the charts... but you get the point) I don't think we need to be (or are) like the Army... but again, if you look at the results of the AF audit, the enforcement part of the test is FUBAR... and if the numbers of those passing is inaccurate, then it comes back around to the program as a whole being ineffective. The bottom line is, whether your leadership is doing it to look good or because they care, if the end result is you getting to do PT 3 times a week, then you win either way.




The USAF performed stunningly well for the first 50+ years of its existence while focusing on technical knowledge and skills over martial skills, being the least "military" of the military branches, and generally focusing on performance over appearance. Since OIF/OEF kicked off and the Army and Marines started being the center of attention, this has changed and our focus has shifted. Perhaps it's just a coincidence that we've seen a decline in the USAF since then. But I for one don't think it's a coincidence at all.

This is the same stuff we all talk when it comes to the quality of "today's Airmen." Back in the day things were so great, and today they all suck... I look back to my days as an Airman... my first assignment was Hahn AB in the mid-80s. I was a punk, died my hair crazy Sid Vicious blue-black and no one said a word... even when the sides grew back to their normal red; I remember nights where you'd be lucky to find 1 or two people awake inside the weapons storage area; them on to Whiteman and the SAC missile field where you'd have guys who needed to be propped up at guardmount because they just rolled in from a night of drinking, with the plan of sleeping it off to work the night shift out in the field. We were no better then than we are now... on the contrary, I'd say the level of responsibility and expectations we have of today's Airmen are considerably higher than they were 20 years ago. We still had the same problems back in the day that we do now... but today we live in a 24-hour news cycle, so even the smallest things get insane amount of attention, where back in the day no one ever knew about them.

I'll be the first to admit we've still got work to do. Until leadership puts their money where their mouth is and factors PT into manpower standards and truly makes it a part of the day-to-day mission of the USAF, then we will never have an equitable program that allows ALL Airmen to participate equally. But we can't sit back and wait for that day to come, so we've all got to do our parts in our own areas of influence to make the best of it. Not the right answer; no more right than not having stocked uniform or iffice supplies... shutting down flying because we are out of funds to fuel the aircraft and all that... but it's all we've got. The best we can do is work up our chains to identify the issues we've got and support and advise our CCs on how to best implement the programs in our units.

[MACHINE666]

Wow - how the tide has turned Bruwin - I've been chanting something similar about fitness for quite some time, yet it's been ignored or downplayed as grumblings on my part, but now that a Chief has a similar sentiment, all his buddies are quick to jump on board. :rolleyes:

For the record Bru, Ramstein is just as out of control with the Prison PT as most the other bases are becoming. The only difference is the shanking is encouraged here.

[Shrike]

This is the same stuff we all talk when it comes to the quality of "today's Airmen." Back in the day things were so great, and today they all suck... I look back to my days as an Airman... my first assignment was Hahn AB in the mid-80s. I was a punk, died my hair crazy Sid Vicious blue-black and no one said a word... even when the sides grew back to their normal red; I remember nights where you'd be lucky to find 1 or two people awake inside the weapons storage area; them on to Whiteman and the SAC missile field where you'd have guys who needed to be propped up at guardmount because they just rolled in from a night of drinking, with the plan of sleeping it off to work the night shift out in the field. We were no better then than we are now... on the contrary, I'd say the level of responsibility and expectations we have of today's Airmen are considerably higher than they were 20 years ago. We still had the same problems back in the day that we do now... but today we live in a 24-hour news cycle, so even the smallest things get insane amount of attention, where back in the day no one ever knew about them.

I'm not talking about the quality of the people as I think the airmen coming in today are great. I'm talking about the USAF as a whole and especially about senior leadership. After Desert Storm, the USAF was the poster boy for American military might. OIF/OEF took that focus and put it back on the Army and Marines, and I don't think the USAF has handled that well at all. It's caused an identity crisis, and the result has been a bunch of idiotic change and bumf*ckery to make the USAF seem relevant again. The problem is that the USAF was never irrelevant - miltary priorities are cyclical. Not recognizing that, USAF leadership jumps around waving its hand in the air yelling "look at me, pleeeeease look at me, I'm still here!!! I see you leering at the Army...well look at us, we've got PT gear, too! We're...we're...we're WARRIORS now, and we've got a creed to prove it! And we just developed ourselves a new uniform, too, and a fancy new PT program!. Pleeeeeease pay attention to me!"

[Shrike]

Wow - how the tide has turned Bruwin - I've been chanting something similar about fitness for quite some time, yet it's been ignored or downplayed as grumblings on my part, but now that a Chief has a similar sentiment, all his buddies are quick to jump on board. :rolleyes:

For the record Bru, Ramstein is just as out of control with the Prison PT as most the other bases are becoming. The only difference is the shanking is encouraged here.

I've been with you, but I'm only a SMSgt so it doesn't count.

;)

[Pueblo]

By the way, how will half the bases have PT tests 12 months a year when they have no indoor track? Is a 15 lap indoor run an accurate test of fitness?

[CrustySMSgt]

I'm not talking about the quality of the people as I think the airmen coming in today are great. I'm talking about the USAF as a whole and especially about senior leadership. After Desert Storm, the USAF was the poster boy for American military might. OIF/OEF took that focus and put it back on the Army and Marines, and I don't think the USAF has handled that well at all. It's caused an identity crisis, and the result has been a bunch of idiotic change and bumf*ckery to make the USAF seem relevant again. The problem is that the USAF was never irrelevant - miltary priorities are cyclical. Not recognizing that, USAF leadership jumps around waving its hand in the air yelling "look at me, pleeeeease look at me, I'm still here!!! I see you leering at the Army...well look at us, we've got PT gear, too! We're...we're...we're WARRIORS now, and we've got a creed to prove it! And we just developed ourselves a new uniform, too, and a fancy new PT program!. Pleeeeeease pay attention to me!"

OK, I won't disagree with any of that... lol
My bad :D

[BRUWIN]

For the record Bru, Ramstein is just as out of control with the Prison PT as most the other bases are becoming. The only difference is the shanking is encouraged here.

I was stationed at Ramstein not to long ago. What I found funny about that place was they did get all spun up about PT but built a running track that if painted yellow would lead you to the wonderful Wizard of Oz. I never had a warm fuzzy that our 1 1/2 mile test on that track was actually 1 1/2 miles.

[BRUWIN]

<
The USAF performed stunningly well for the first 50+ years of its existence while focusing on technical knowledge and skills over martial skills, being the least "military" of the military branches, and generally focusing on performance over appearance. Since OIF/OEF kicked off and the Army and Marines started being the center of attention, this has changed and our focus has shifted. Perhaps it's just a coincidence that we've seen a decline in the USAF since then. But I for one don't think it's a coincidence at all.

I think that about sums it all up in a nutshell right there.

[BigBaze]

I'm not talking about the quality of the people as I think the airmen coming in today are great. I'm talking about the USAF as a whole and especially about senior leadership. After Desert Storm, the USAF was the poster boy for American military might. OIF/OEF took that focus and put it back on the Army and Marines, and I don't think the USAF has handled that well at all. It's caused an identity crisis, and the result has been a bunch of idiotic change and bumf*ckery to make the USAF seem relevant again. The problem is that the USAF was never irrelevant - miltary priorities are cyclical. Not recognizing that, USAF leadership jumps around waving its hand in the air yelling "look at me, pleeeeease look at me, I'm still here!!! I see you leering at the Army...well look at us, we've got PT gear, too! We're...we're...we're WARRIORS now, and we've got a creed to prove it! And we just developed ourselves a new uniform, too, and a fancy new PT program!. Pleeeeeease pay attention to me!"


I like!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:thumbup:

[MACHINE666]

I was stationed at Ramstein not to long ago. What I found funny about that place was they did get all spun up about PT but built a running track that if painted yellow would lead you to the wonderful Wizard of Oz. I never had a warm fuzzy that our 1 1/2 mile test on that track was actually 1 1/2 miles.

Yes Bru I know...I even recieved your junk mail in my PO Box a few times on accident. Even just last week I had something addressed with your name on it. Serious! :D

[CMSBROWN]

Extend To The Leeeeeeeeeefttttt!!!!!!! Mooooooooooveeeeeeee!

Arms Downward! Move!

Extend To The Leeeeeeeeeeeftttt!!!!!!!! Move!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Arms Downward!!!!!!! Move!!!!!!!

Riiiiiiiiiiiigggggggggghhhhhhhhhtttt Face!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

First Exercise Is The Side Strattle Hop! The Side Strattle Hop!!!!!!!!!!

Incadence Exercise!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

I kill me! :)

[Modus]

^^Reminds me of Army ILO training..

*shudders*

[Sgt HULK]

Sadly for me this will hurt me more. Im a bigger guy 6'3 about 220 at the moment. having a 33 inch waist and maxing my strength has saved me. Im not a strong runner. Ive played football for close to 20 yrs up through the semi pro ranks. short bursts of running i can do all day but running anything past 1/2 mile and the old joints start to feel it.
I focus all my training on strength, squats deadlifts bench etc..
I cant wait for the day I get referred to the hawc for being out of shape even though im training for my first novice bodybuilding show.

its a sign of the times The airforce wants track stars. Im sure if an IED goes off on convoy duty those track stars will do just fine saving thier troops from the burning vehicles


/sarcasm

[Pueblo]

Not sure what base you are refering to, but here they are getting the bugs worked out of their program. Testing was taking ~4 hours to complete; I think they are closer to 2 hours now. The program has only been in place command wide for a month now, so obviously it will take time to streamline to process. Same will apply when they've got to double the input... may result in having to double the number of civilians hired... but then if it is an AF-wide initiative, then it'll be budgeted for at the AF level.

I still think it is a great inititive and a step in the right direction.

You're not a UFPM, are you? With all the new failures, they're being inundated with scheduling 30% of their squadrons (that 30% that's been failing their tests thanks to testers evaluating style, not form) for all kinds of fitness classes on top of scheduling airmen for the tests themselves. In a CE, Comm, SF, or logistics squadron, that is easily over 50 people going to classes throughout a week. It's not easy and the HAWC is not keeping up, nor are they pulling their weight. So the bugs are not being worked out and the problems will be twice as bad once people start testing twice as often. Just because you don't personally see what a fiasco this is doesn't mean it's fixing itself.

[CrustySMSgt]

You're not a UFPM, are you? With all the new failures, they're being inundated with scheduling 30% of their squadrons (that 30% that's been failing their tests thanks to testers evaluating style, not form) for all kinds of fitness classes on top of scheduling airmen for the tests themselves. In a CE, Comm, SF, or logistics squadron, that is easily over 50 people going to classes throughout a week. It's not easy and the HAWC is not keeping up, nor are they pulling their weight. So the bugs are not being worked out and the problems will be twice as bad once people start testing twice as often. Just because you don't personally see what a fiasco this is doesn't mean it's fixing itself.

Not the UFPM, but he's my troop, and as the SEL, I get briefed almost daily on the status of our program.

Yokota has not really seen a drastic increase in failures... the HAWC OIC briefed the Top III the other day that MIsawa is up considerably. Don't know about the other PACAF bases.

And just maybe, when we start testing twice a year and getting a no-shit test instead of getting hooked up, those who have been ducking the program will finally get their shit together and actually pass... novel concept I know... :rolleyes:

[Silver Fox]

I just had my last PT Test today. It spawned an interesting conversation,

PTL Administering Test: "Man you really slacked off on this one..."
Me: "It's my last one, so long as I got an above an 80 I don't really care."
PTL: "Yeah, so long as you pass right?"
Me: "The funny part is, I wasn't even trying and I still finished third out of the whole damn unit, so what does that say about everyone else?"
PTL: "Ugh. Don't remind me..."

[CrustySMSgt]

I just had my last PT Test today. It spawned an interesting conversation,

PTL Administering Test: "Man you really slacked off on this one..."
Me: "It's my last one, so long as I got an above an 80 I don't really care."
PTL: "Yeah, so long as you pass right?"
Me: "The funny part is, I wasn't even trying and I still finished third out of the whole damn unit, so what does that say about everyone else?"
PTL: "Ugh. Don't remind me..."

Congrats on your last test (unless the twice a year comes out before you retire! :tongue: )

[Silver Fox]

Congrats on your last test (unless the twice a year comes out before you retire! :tongue: )

Not retiring, sir. That'd be nice, but I can't make it that far.

Yeah, hoping that doesn't happen, not that I plan on turning into a Swiff (the pronunciation of SFF or sweaty fat f*ck*r) but I'd rather not screw with pt tests anymore. By the time that policy does come out, I should be on terminal or so close that they won't bother with me.

On the career note, I took the Strong Interest Inventory lol, and it said the military should be a top job consideration. :confused: I guess because I'm an idealist... I love the *idea* of the military, but am greatly disillusioned with the *reality*. If there were any glimmer of hope at all, I'd probably re-up in a heartbeat, but I think the laundry list of things that would have to change or happen is too long to be accomodated. :(

[CMSBROWN]

You're not a UFPM, are you? With all the new failures, they're being inundated with scheduling 30% of their squadrons (that 30% that's been failing their tests thanks to testers evaluating style, not form) for all kinds of fitness classes on top of scheduling airmen for the tests themselves. In a CE, Comm, SF, or logistics squadron, that is easily over 50 people going to classes throughout a week. It's not easy and the HAWC is not keeping up, nor are they pulling their weight. So the bugs are not being worked out and the problems will be twice as bad once people start testing twice as often. Just because you don't personally see what a fiasco this is doesn't mean it's fixing itself.

Out of 56 personnel in my SF squadron we only have ONE marginal and that is because she is still recovering from having a BABY....Oh and we are reservists....it all comes down to self-discipline....that is all.:D

[CrustySMSgt]

Out of 56 personnel in my SF squadron we only have ONE marginal and that is because she is still recovering from having a BABY....Oh and we are reservists....it all comes down to self-discipline....that is all.:D

Reservists still have a marginal category?

[Pueblo]

Out of 56 personnel in my SF squadron we only have ONE marginal and that is because she is still recovering from having a BABY....Oh and we are reservists....it all comes down to self-discipline....that is all.:D

You haven't tested with the HAWC, have you?

[CMSBROWN]

Reservists still have a marginal category?

We follow the same guidlines as everyone else. ;)

[CMSBROWN]

You haven't tested with the HAWC, have you?

My PTLs are certified by the Base HAWC.

Dont get me wrong...when AFRC pushed down the PT testing requirements some of my guys ranged from Excellent to Poor. My Admin guy could only do 10 pushups. We had some cops that could only do 20-25 situps....now they all with the exception of one female (still recovering from baby) who are 75 and above. Which is the standard..thus far...:) It is all a mindset of self-discipline, morale and espirit de corps....if you have those in your unit....your personnel will feel personally obligated to maintain or exceed the standard. Thus the great success rate in my squadron.....and peer pressure can be a bitch too.... :D

[Sgt HULK]

reservists Im sure will have more personal time to Pt :0

[AF_MSgt]

Ok folks. Our MAJCOM A1 spoke to us today on a VTC. He wanted to share the proposed changes with us to help dispel any rumors that are floating around. This information is straight from the Colonel's mouth. Here's what he said:

- Centralized testing at the HAWC. Yes, the AF will be hiring more people to accomodate this.
- Tests will be required every 6 months.
- Push-ups & Sit-ups will account for 10% of your score (5% each)
- The waist will remian at 30%. You no longer need a 32" waist for max points, but the points will fall off rapidly once you get above 37". Studies have shown that the health risk from 32" to 36" is not that much different than 32" and below. The disconnect is that our current test penalizes you if you have a 36" waist.
- The run will be 60% of your score.
- Proposed test will be approved, disapproved, or modiifed at the next CORONA.

[AF Chief]

Well lets see how that goes...I am so tired of all these changes.

My thing is...if you are meeting the standard, leave people alone. Don't put them on "watch" because they are close to falling below the standard, leave them alone. We have commanders that put more stringent policies on the program. One in particular (before this announcement), would test his folks twice a year. Then he wonders why his squadron has so many failures. Also, this is a burden on the PTLs (at the time) because they and everyone involved in a PT failure are working twice as hard, doing twice the amount of work.

If you pass, I don't care if its on the freaking line, let it be. Don't monitor these folks like they are children. If they fail when it is time to test, then so be it. They know the test is coming and if they fail, then they have to take the consequences that go along with the failure.

[BRUWIN]

Well lets see how that goes...I am so tired of all these changes.

My thing is...if you are meeting the standard, leave people alone. Don't put them on "watch" because they are close to falling below the standard, leave them alone. We have commanders that put more stringent policies on the program. One in particular (before this announcement), would test his folks twice a year. Then he wonders why his squadron has so many failures. Also, this is a burden on the PTLs (at the time) because they and everyone involved in a PT failure are working twice as hard, doing twice the amount of work.

If you pass, I don't care if its on the freaking line, let it be. Don't monitor these folks like they are children. If they fail when it is time to test, then so be it. They know the test is coming and if they fail, then they have to take the consequences that go along with the failure.


Amen brotha!

[Stabby]

Ok, kind of off the actual topic but it's still about PT. So my squadron CC has decided to come out with a new award to give away to a particular section. It's called the "couch potato" award and it's given to the section with the lowest PT scores. The reason I bring this up is because after we did the math, the section that got the award had fewer failures than the section voted the "best", but the section that got the award had the lowest average scores. Everyone passed by Air Force standards but they were all still deemed couch potato's because their scores were between the 75-80 mark. I knew it wouldn't be long before someone decided meeting the Air Force standard would still label you as being a s*^tbag. When we were required to get a 70 to pass you were crap for making a 70.1, now that it's 75 you're crap for making a 75. Good times.

[Modus]

Probably won't be long before someone files a complaint against your CC lol.

[AF Chief]

Ok, kind of off the actual topic but it's still about PT. So my squadron CC has decided to come out with a new award to give away to a particular section. It's called the "couch potato" award and it's given to the section with the lowest PT scores. The reason I bring this up is because after we did the math, the section that got the award had fewer failures than the section voted the "best", but the section that got the award had the lowest average scores. Everyone passed by Air Force standards but they were all still deemed couch potato's because their scores were between the 75-80 mark. I knew it wouldn't be long before someone decided meeting the Air Force standard would still label you as being a s*^tbag. When we were required to get a 70 to pass you were crap for making a 70.1, now that it's 75 you're crap for making a 75. Good times.

Instead of doing that, why don't he give out a "Outstanding Fitness" Award to the flight that has the BEST scores? IMOP, this is stupid the way he is doing it. It won't make people want to improve, it will make flight supervisors put more pressure on their folks and just piss people off in the end.

[AF_MSgt]

My thing is...if you are meeting the standard, leave people alone. Don't put them on "watch" because they are close to falling below the standard, leave them alone. We have commanders that put more stringent policies on the program. One in particular (before this announcement), would test his folks twice a year.

My commander has a policy in place right now that is more strict. If you score a 90 or above, you only have to test once a year. 80-89.95 has to test every 6 months. 75-79.95 has to test every 4 months. And yes, all of these are official PT tests. If you fail, you have to test every 42 days until you pass (90 days is not allowed). And once you do pass, you have to test every 90 days until you have 4 consecutive passing tests. I am absolutely not kidding. This is our squadorn policy and it is strictly enforced.

[nomad]

Not the UFPM, but he's my troop, and as the SEL, I get briefed almost daily on the status of our program.

Yokota has not really seen a drastic increase in failures... the HAWC OIC briefed the Top III the other day that MIsawa is up considerably. Don't know about the other PACAF bases.

And just maybe, when we start testing twice a year and getting a no-shit test instead of getting hooked up, those who have been ducking the program will finally get their shit together and actually pass... novel concept I know... :rolleyes:

Crusty,

I'm at Yokota myself and a UFPM. The HAWC is trying to do the right thing and as far as I can tell they are. The only complaint I've been receiving is about the push-ups. Too many people are saying they make you go way past 90 degrees and make you lock out your elbows. Not sure if it's true or not but I'm going to go monitor the test today to see if it's true. Push ups have gone down 40% for my unit, but we still have a 99% pass rate.

[CrustySMSgt]

Well lets see how that goes...I am so tired of all these changes.

My thing is...if you are meeting the standard, leave people alone. Don't put them on "watch" because they are close to falling below the standard, leave them alone. We have commanders that put more stringent policies on the program. One in particular (before this announcement), would test his folks twice a year. Then he wonders why his squadron has so many failures. Also, this is a burden on the PTLs (at the time) because they and everyone involved in a PT failure are working twice as hard, doing twice the amount of work.

If you pass, I don't care if its on the freaking line, let it be. Don't monitor these folks like they are children. If they fail when it is time to test, then so be it. They know the test is coming and if they fail, then they have to take the consequences that go along with the failure.


Sorry Chief, but I gotta disagree... they are failing every 6 months because they are failing to maintain their fitness. If it was all about the test, we'd just go back to a once a year test with no program to support it.

[CrustySMSgt]

Ok, kind of off the actual topic but it's still about PT. So my squadron CC has decided to come out with a new award to give away to a particular section. It's called the "couch potato" award and it's given to the section with the lowest PT scores. The reason I bring this up is because after we did the math, the section that got the award had fewer failures than the section voted the "best", but the section that got the award had the lowest average scores. Everyone passed by Air Force standards but they were all still deemed couch potato's because their scores were between the 75-80 mark. I knew it wouldn't be long before someone decided meeting the Air Force standard would still label you as being a s*^tbag. When we were required to get a 70 to pass you were crap for making a 70.1, now that it's 75 you're crap for making a 75. Good times.

How is this any different than giving passes for above average CDC scores? Or internal unit requirements that you get an 80 on the CDC practice test before you go do the real thing? If a 65 on your CDCs is good enough for the Air Force, why take the extra time & effort to ensure someone is prepared to do better?

Your CC is doing something outside the box to try and motivate his people to strive to improve. That is his/her job.

[CrustySMSgt]

Crusty,

I'm at Yokota myself and a UFPM. The HAWC is trying to do the right thing and as far as I can tell they are. The only complaint I've been receiving is about the push-ups. Too many people are saying they make you go way past 90 degrees and make you lock out your elbows. Not sure if it's true or not but I'm going to go monitor the test today to see if it's true. Push ups have gone down 40% for my unit, but we still have a 99% pass rate.

I've talked to a couple of fellow SNCOs who have gone over and observed our folks being tested on 2 occasions. Feedback I got was the evaluators are being consistant and fair... the drama is coming from all the people bitching about not getting away with the half-assed pushups they used to do. And as your statistics reflect, the bottom line is, they are (mostly) still passing... they just may not get the 100 they are used to getting.

[LOAL-D]

I've talked to a couple of fellow SNCOs who have gone over and observed our folks being tested on 2 occasions. Feedback I got was the evaluators are being consistant and fair... the drama is coming from all the people bitching about not getting away with the half-assed pushups they used to do. And as your statistics reflect, the bottom line is, they are (mostly) still passing... they just may not get the 100 they are used to getting.

Ha ha, I was the king of half-assed pushups! (and crunches too) Next, people will be talking about the good old days when you could half-ass it. :) :)

[blacksheep1208]

My commander has a policy in place right now that is more strict. If you score a 90 or above, you only have to test once a year. 80-89.95 has to test every 6 months. 75-79.95 has to test every 4 months. And yes, all of these are official PT tests. If you fail, you have to test every 42 days until you pass (90 days is not allowed). And once you do pass, you have to test every 90 days until you have 4 consecutive passing tests. I am absolutely not kidding. This is our squadorn policy and it is strictly enforced.

Don't commanders have anything better to do? Like oh I don't know...making sure the mission is accomplished. Not just dreaming up ways to make people's lives more miserable? And why even have AFI's if people are going to make up their own rules?

[ANOTHERCOMBATVET]

Don't commanders have anything better to do? Like oh I don't know...making sure the mission is accomplished. Not just dreaming up ways to make people's lives more miserable? And why even have AFI's if people are going to make up their own rules?

I was thinking the same thing. Anyway, I am yawning too much so time to hit the hay.

[AF_MSgt]

Push-ups and sit-ups won't matter much more since they will only count for 5% each.

[CMSBROWN]

reservists Im sure will have more personal time to Pt :0

What you think that they dont have jobs too? The majority of my cops are cops and firemen on the outside. It all boils down to self-discipline.....plain and simple.

What really make me laugh about having time crap is when you are in the box....boy everyone has time to go workout even after pulling 14-16hr shifts......but when you are stateside your priorities change....

[CMSBROWN]

Well lets see how that goes...I am so tired of all these changes.

If you pass, I don't care if its on the freaking line, let it be. Don't monitor these folks like they are children. If they fail when it is time to test, then so be it. They know the test is coming and if they fail, then they have to take the consequences that go along with the failure.

MILE HIGH SALUTE! :cool:

A pass is a pass is a pass. Just becuase you can run your ass off doesn't mean you are combat ready or can carry you ICE for long periods of time. To me it just means you can run farther away! LMFAO!

[CMSBROWN]

How is this any different than giving passes for above average CDC scores? Or internal unit requirements that you get an 80 on the CDC practice test before you go do the real thing? If a 65 on your CDCs is good enough for the Air Force, why take the extra time & effort to ensure someone is prepared to do better?

Your CC is doing something outside the box to try and motivate his people to strive to improve. That is his/her job.

I agree....helps build morale. IMO. My guys would make fun of the award winners....and I bet you the next test time they wouldnt win it again.;)

[CMSBROWN]

I've talked to a couple of fellow SNCOs who have gone over and observed our folks being tested on 2 occasions. Feedback I got was the evaluators are being consistant and fair... the drama is coming from all the people bitching about not getting away with the half-assed pushups they used to do. And as your statistics reflect, the bottom line is, they are (mostly) still passing... they just may not get the 100 they are used to getting.

Push-ups are a breeze to do...you just have to know how to do them and do them right. Alot of people spread their hands wide away from their bodies. Acceptable....yes....harder to do...absolutely. After about 20 reps people start looking like a chicken bobbin their heads....that is where the score suffers too...

Bring your hands in closer to your body so they are barely outside the parallel of your shoulders. When you are in the start position focus on a point far out front of you when you start and you feel your triceps stretch you have gone to the 90 degree angle and go back up....trust me on this....wide arm pushups are alot harder....I also tell my guys that do ONLY your max...you dont get extra points for anything past your max....save your energy for the CRUNCHES! LOL!

[CLSE]

Ok folks. Our MAJCOM A1 spoke to us today on a VTC. He wanted to share the proposed changes with us to help dispel any rumors that are floating around. This information is straight from the Colonel's mouth. Here's what he said:

- Centralized testing at the HAWC. Yes, the AF will be hiring more people to accomodate this.
- Tests will be required every 6 months.
- Push-ups & Sit-ups will account for 10% of your score (5% each)
- The waist will remian at 30%. You no longer need a 32" waist for max points, but the points will fall off rapidly once you get above 37". Studies have shown that the health risk from 32" to 36" is not that much different than 32" and below. The disconnect is that our current test penalizes you if you have a 36" waist.
- The run will be 60% of your score.
- Proposed test will be approved, disapproved, or modiifed at the next CORONA.

Wow. I almost don't know what to say.

So here's the Air Force's message, as I see it:

Me: 16 years in the Air Force, lots of experience under my belt, spent several years in Korea, supported Kosovo operations, deployed to Iraq during OIF, deployed to Afghanistan, 7-Level in my AFSC, a civilian job that crosses over with my military duties (I'm a Reservist) and benefits the Air Force and DoD in multiple ways.

I was the go-to guy in my AFSC at my last unit because of my experience and knowledge and my willingness to learn more than the basics to perform my duties.

Airman Snuffy (theoretical, could be any Airman): Joins the Air Force for a 4 or 6 year enlistment, maybe even stays for one more enlistment, does just what he needs to do to keep out of trouble, joined for the college bennies and is going to bolt at the end of his enlistment.

I'm not a good runner, it's never come naturally to me, but I do well on the strength part, but that doesn't count for s**t, and according to the above, will count for even less now.

Airman Snuffy is skinny and is a good runner.

So, in the Air Force's eyes, Airman Snuffy is worth hanging on to because he's a good runner, but I'm potentially not worth hanging on to because I'm not a good runner.


Wow. The Air Force has some interesting priorities.

[Stabby]

Instead of doing that, why don't he give out a "Outstanding Fitness" Award to the flight that has the BEST scores? IMOP, this is stupid the way he is doing it. It won't make people want to improve, it will make flight supervisors put more pressure on their folks and just piss people off in the end.

They do have an award for best flight as well. I personally could care less what kind of award any of them give out. Lots of awards in the AF whether it be at sqaudron or group level have lost their meaning IMO, there just seems to be too many of them. An award for worst PT means nothing to me to be honest(yeah yeah bad attitude). It damn sure won't stop them from sending any of those people out on the next deployment cycle.


How is this any different than giving passes for above average CDC scores? Or internal unit requirements that you get an 80 on the CDC practice test before you go do the real thing? If a 65 on your CDCs is good enough for the Air Force, why take the extra time & effort to ensure someone is prepared to do better?

Your CC is doing something outside the box to try and motivate his people to strive to improve. That is his/her job.

If they want everyone to improve so much then shut the flight line down everyday so the entire squadron can do PT 3 times a week. Oh wait, we can't do that can we? It never ceases to amaze me though how some management level individuals fail to remember that the mission comes first. (not necessarily you so don't take it as a personal attack) It seems this concept gets lost inside their cozy little office job...until a problem arises of course then everyone climbs out of their hole to see who they can reprimand for it. People are trying the best they can for the most part. Of course this does not include everyone because some people just don't give a crap. If you pass you pass, that should be it. The ones that fail should be given the appropriate levels of discipline that are in place for the program, and if they fail to meet them after several attempts...boot em.

[CrustySMSgt]

Wow. I almost don't know what to say.

So, in the Air Force's eyes, Airman Snuffy is worth hanging on to because he's a good runner, but I'm potentially not worth hanging on to because I'm not a good runner.


Wow. The Air Force has some interesting priorities.

You don't have to be a "good runner" to do the 1.5 mile in the alloted time.

And I am still suspect about the details given by his MAJCOM A1. The CMSAF gave us some different details at the CLC... so unless things have changed drastically, I'd wait until the no-shit AFI comes out before I got too worried.

[CrustySMSgt]

They do have an award for best flight as well. I personally could care less what kind of award any of them give out. Lots of awards in the AF whether it be at sqaudron or group level have lost their meaning IMO, there just seems to be too many of them. An award for worst PT means nothing to me to be honest(yeah yeah bad attitude). It damn sure won't stop them from sending any of those people out on the next deployment cycle.



My last unit had a "knucklehead of the ____" award... it was a good natured thing given to someone who did something boneheaded. With the right atmoshpere, "negative" awards can work... but as you allude to... if people could give a shit, the it isn't going to be very effective.



If they want everyone to improve so much then shut the flight line down everyday so the entire squadron can do PT 3 times a week. Oh wait, we can't do that can we? It never ceases to amaze me though how some management level individuals fail to remember that the mission comes first. (not necessarily you so don't take it as a personal attack) It seems this concept gets lost inside their cozy little office job...until a problem arises of course then everyone climbs out of their hole to see who they can reprimand for it. People are trying the best they can for the most part. Of course this does not include everyone because some people just don't give a crap. If you pass you pass, that should be it. The ones that fail should be given the appropriate levels of discipline that are in place for the program, and if they fail to meet them after several attempts...boot em.

I agree 100%... and hope someday those who control the purstrings finally put their money where their mouth is and man us to do PT.

Unfotunately, until that happens, we've got to work with what we've got. And yes, it does suck that the program is, as most AF programs are, targeted at the lowest level, the problem folks who need someone to hold their hand, at the expense of the 99% of the Airmen who are doing the right thing.

[BRAVO10000]

You don't have to be a "good runner" to do the 1.5 mile in the alloted time.

And I am still suspect about the details given by his MAJCOM A1. The CMSAF gave us some different details at the CLC... so unless things have changed drastically, I'd wait until the no-shit AFI comes out before I got too worried.

No, but it sucks real bad when you run poorly. The run is already half your score - this makes it 60%.

I hope you're right, Crusty. I have my fingers crossed for a balanced and fair program, but I am not optimistic.

[BRUWIN]

If they want everyone to improve so much then shut the flight line down everyday so the entire squadron can do PT 3 times a week. Oh wait, we can't do that can we? It never ceases to amaze me though how some management level individuals fail to remember that the mission comes first. (not necessarily you so don't take it as a personal attack) It seems this concept gets lost inside their cozy little office job...until a problem arises of course then everyone climbs out of their hole to see who they can reprimand for it..

This is another thing that grates me...making time out of the busy day for everybody to do PT. I don't thnk it should be required. We're expected to be clean too but I don't think we should be given duty time to shower and brush our teeth. I don't think unit PT helps people much anyways.

[Stabby]

This is another thing that grates me...making time out of the busy day for everybody to do PT. I don't thnk it should be required. We're expected to be clean too but I don't think we should be given duty time to shower and brush our teeth. I don't think unit PT helps people much anyways.

So am I to understand you think that we should in no way shape or form be allotted time to go workout and become "fit to fight" during our duty hours? Perhaps I'm wrong here but I do believe the Army, whom it seems we are reverting back to anyways, does PT as part of their duty day and it seems to work fine. But you say "busy" day? When the hell has that ever stopped ANY office in the Air Force from shutting down? Let's see here, squadron picnics, sports, "training days", functions of any sort, CC calls, F'ing off. Just a small list that seems to take time out of their "busy" day to do. Last I checked none of those things helped people get in shape. Maybe less bullsh^*t CC calls and whatnot and more focusing on shutting down to actually do something constructive and beneficial to people's health. Whatever.

[BRUWIN]

So am I to understand you think that we should in no way shape or form be allotted time to go workout and become "fit to fight" during our duty hours? Perhaps I'm wrong here but I do believe the Army, whom it seems we are reverting back to anyways, does PT as part of their duty day and it seems to work fine. .


We ain't the Army...and this ehole PT thing is being entirely overemphasised. And not everybody gets time for PT so it isn't fair to begin with. I get time to do it with my unit...but then I go back to the gym after work and focus on the things I would rather have done if not for my unit dictating what i will do.

[AF Chief]

A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...ain't it funny how when we did PT once a year, running or Ergo, and nobody complained about having time to do PT and passed (well most did). :)

And yea I know...different time, different standards.

[HawaiianTSgt]

I passed on reading all 7 pages of this topic, but I will chime in.

To me, the bottom line is, PT whether group or individual, should be designed where all personnel will gain from it. Running for 15 minutes and doing the standards cals are boring...so, the variety turns the mind off, which in the end will not assist in the gaining.

The goal for all personnel should be to lead a healthy lifestyle, for yourself, family, and for the opposite gender.

I feel i'm in impeccable shape, but I definitely don't max the PT score. But, I can pick up someone that outweighs me and lug them across a football field and back, Pull myself up and over a wall, all this while wearing about 50 pounds of gear. But my PT scores reflect I'm not in excellent shape.

Group PT isn't something I'm very fond of, but I recently graduated from the Kirtland NCOA where I ran PT for my flight of 12. The key in my mind was variety. A good amount of the flight was runners, who initially didn't care for my high focus on circuit training. I would smoke them 3 days a week. But it felt good when the runners were amazed at their waist measurement decreases, and their runs actually improving.

It's all about variety. But everyone needs to make an honest effort to be healthy....

[takthekak]

Ok folks. Our MAJCOM A1 spoke to us today on a VTC. He wanted to share the proposed changes with us to help dispel any rumors that are floating around. This information is straight from the Colonel's mouth. Here's what he said:

- Centralized testing at the HAWC. Yes, the AF will be hiring more people to accomodate this.
- Tests will be required every 6 months.
- Push-ups & Sit-ups will account for 10% of your score (5% each)
- The waist will remian at 30%. You no longer need a 32" waist for max points, but the points will fall off rapidly once you get above 37". Studies have shown that the health risk from 32" to 36" is not that much different than 32" and below. The disconnect is that our current test penalizes you if you have a 36" waist.
- The run will be 60% of your score.
- Proposed test will be approved, disapproved, or modiifed at the next CORONA.

Hmmm...testing 2 times a year, like the ARMY? How did I know we would end up like this...
don't we always

[kojack]

Why are you all so upset over PT? Form up in numbers and refuse to do it. Yell racism and/or sexism. Unionize and TELL the commander WHAT you will do and WHEN you will do.

We're in a new age; the democrat obama age. Its about equality across the board from equalizing salary and perks to this idea of having to be physically fit in an armed service. Very offensive, very racist and sexist and it has to stop.

Each of you know more about running a unit and the AF than the service chief and senior commanders. Take your AF back.

[BRUWIN]

Why are you all so upset over PT? Form up in numbers and refuse to do it. Yell racism and/or sexism. Unionize and TELL the commander WHAT you will do and WHEN you will do.

We're in a new age; the democrat obama age. Its about equality across the board from equalizing salary and perks to this idea of having to be physically fit in an armed service. Very offensive, very racist and sexist and it has to stop.

Each of you know more about running a unit and the AF than the service chief and senior commanders. Take your AF back.

I wouldn't refuse to do it. I accept the fact I'm in the military and being fit is one of the standards. I was fit before all this PT crap came around and I'm still fit.

But It's nice to see someone is enjoying the circus this PT thing has turned into.

[sweatyAZ]

Each of you know more about running a unit and the AF than the service chief and senior commanders.

Sometimes I really really wonder......

[Calmo70]

Why are you all so upset over PT? Form up in numbers and refuse to do it. Yell racism and/or sexism. Unionize and TELL the commander WHAT you will do and WHEN you will do.

We're in a new age; the democrat obama age. Its about equality across the board from equalizing salary and perks to this idea of having to be physically fit in an armed service. Very offensive, very racist and sexist and it has to stop.

Each of you know more about running a unit and the AF than the service chief and senior commanders. Take your AF back.

About the most asinine rant I've seen. kojack is an embarassment to us retired folk. I get it - you don't like Obama. That has little to do with the PT Program. What's next kojack - complaining about the racist diet in the DFAC when they serve ribs or cornbread? Dumb Ass!

[MACHINE666]

Okay Kojack now that is absolutely absurd on your part to say something like that. I for one don't know the FIRST THING when it comes to running a squadron and I won't pretend that I do. I've seen first hand the headaches that commanders have to put up with which is why I am so reluctant to throw stones at them. They're there for a reason and as much as I disagree with alot of what they do at times, I'm thankful it's not me in that position. You wanna see the proverbial baby be thrown out with the bath water, just promote me to O-5 real fast and watch the dominos fall.

No if anything my biggest complaint is that leadership doesn't listen when someone has a good insight or advice about something. Perhaps that could remedy alot of problems right there, but I still wouldn't want to be the guy in charge! :D

[Smeghead]

A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...ain't it funny how when we did PT once a year, running or Ergo, and nobody complained about having time to do PT and passed (well most did). :)

And yea I know...different time, different standards.

And a lot of people keeled over and died as they crossed the finish line

[CrustySMSgt]

I passed on reading all 7 pages of this topic, but I will chime in.

To me, the bottom line is, PT whether group or individual, should be designed where all personnel will gain from it. Running for 15 minutes and doing the standards cals are boring...so, the variety turns the mind off, which in the end will not assist in the gaining.

The goal for all personnel should be to lead a healthy lifestyle, for yourself, family, and for the opposite gender.

I feel i'm in impeccable shape, but I definitely don't max the PT score. But, I can pick up someone that outweighs me and lug them across a football field and back, Pull myself up and over a wall, all this while wearing about 50 pounds of gear. But my PT scores reflect I'm not in excellent shape.

Group PT isn't something I'm very fond of, but I recently graduated from the Kirtland NCOA where I ran PT for my flight of 12. The key in my mind was variety. A good amount of the flight was runners, who initially didn't care for my high focus on circuit training. I would smoke them 3 days a week. But it felt good when the runners were amazed at their waist measurement decreases, and their runs actually improving.

It's all about variety. But everyone needs to make an honest effort to be healthy....


Welcome to the board... you sound like a pretty good NCO; keep up the great work!

Variety is definitely good!

[MIKI!]

Why stress over the PT test? The AF is wasting too much time/money on this subject. Don't worry about how the test is scored. Everyone knows the test is flawed and the new test coming out this summer will be flawed just as well. Just do the damn test and pass it! It's simple: Run hard, knock out the p/u and crunches, and suck in your gut! :)

[MACHINE666]

And a lot of people keeled over and died as they crossed the finish line

Dude that was like the one-in-one million person who that would happen to, and yet the AF used that as leverage to blow this whole fitness thing out of proportion.

Newsflash: when I was a medical technician, I did an old school Periodic Non-Fly exam on a dude who was fit as a mule, no older than 30. He goes to London for the weekend and out of the blue drops like a bag of bricks, dying instantaneously - the cause? Cerebral embolism. I had another situation where I had a Pararescue guy shooting hoops with his buddies in the desert have the same thing happen to him - it really rattled the community at the time, yet he was in the top shape of anyone there.

Bottom line - people die, regardless of what they drink, smoke or put in their mouth. If the Air Force took more of a "Everything in moderation" approach instead of going overboard with everything, perhaps this whole thing wouldn't be such a big, pointless issue.

[JHawkG33K]

Ok folks. Our MAJCOM A1 spoke to us today on a VTC. He wanted to share the proposed changes with us to help dispel any rumors that are floating around. This information is straight from the Colonel's mouth. Here's what he said:

- Centralized testing at the HAWC. Yes, the AF will be hiring more people to accomodate this.
- Tests will be required every 6 months.
- Push-ups & Sit-ups will account for 10% of your score (5% each)
- The waist will remian at 30%. You no longer need a 32" waist for max points, but the points will fall off rapidly once you get above 37". Studies have shown that the health risk from 32" to 36" is not that much different than 32" and below. The disconnect is that our current test penalizes you if you have a 36" waist.
- The run will be 60% of your score.
- Proposed test will be approved, disapproved, or modiifed at the next CORONA.

This is absolutely asanine. 10% to measure core and upper-body strength. All this says is that the Air Force doesn't care one bit about "fitness".

Congratulations everyone, with this proposed PFT you can now let your middle go...literally and figuratively, you don't need to be able to lift yourself off the ground, and you can get all this while not improving your cardiovascular fitness...keep dragging your slow butt around the track the same old way and we'll give you more points for it!

Ok, now in all seriousness how is this an improvement of measuring fitness? The standard is being altered to appease the complaints without applying real medical and kinesthetic principals to a method of evaluation. With all the current viable research at their disposal leadership won't take the time to read and apply logic to this issue?

***Sidebar***
Is it just me or are people just pulling the numbers they use for the points scale out of their rears? If you look at the current AFI the push-up/sit-up numbers drop with each age group progressively. However the run time for males doesn't change until the 30-34 age group...(and then the scale shifts by 12 seconds)...This doesn't change again until the 40-44 category (36 second shift). If you look at the female assessment the times change with each group and they shift by 18, 30, and 20 seconds respectively...and a female under the age of 25 only needs to be able to run as fast as a 50 year old man? Someone please explain how this is reasonable.
***

[BRUWIN]

And a lot of people keeled over and died as they crossed the finish line

Actually...I would argue that more are dying now. But it does little to argue about it. Again...yes we should be fit, but it should be left to the individual to ensure they are fit. And one failure shouldn't be the end of the world for a troop. If anybody has been to Iraq lately being unfit hasn't spelled doom for anybody in the Army. They have thier fair share of fat people too. The first time I went to Balad I would sometimes go to west side at early in the morning and drive by the remedial Army PT that was going on...it looked like the special olympics out there.

[takthekak]

Why are you all so upset over PT? Form up in numbers and refuse to do it. Yell racism and/or sexism. Unionize and TELL the commander WHAT you will do and WHEN you will do.

We're in a new age; the democrat obama age. Its about equality across the board from equalizing salary and perks to this idea of having to be physically fit in an armed service. Very offensive, very racist and sexist and it has to stop.

Each of you know more about running a unit and the AF than the service chief and senior commanders. Take your AF back.

Last time I checked, our leaders got fired in the not too distant past and the SECDEF even had to step and over rule personnel cuts.

[LOAL-D]

Why are you all so upset over PT? Form up in numbers and refuse to do it. Yell racism and/or sexism. Unionize and TELL the commander WHAT you will do and WHEN you will do.

We're in a new age; the democrat obama age. Its about equality across the board from equalizing salary and perks to this idea of having to be physically fit in an armed service. Very offensive, very racist and sexist and it has to stop.

Each of you know more about running a unit and the AF than the service chief and senior commanders. Take your AF back.


Kojack, do you wear your Haband polyester stretch pants hiked up to your nipples and yell at the neighborhood kids to get off your lawn?

[Pueblo]

Why are you all so upset over PT? Form up in numbers and refuse to do it. Yell racism and/or sexism. Unionize and TELL the commander WHAT you will do and WHEN you will do.

We're in a new age; the democrat obama age. Its about equality across the board from equalizing salary and perks to this idea of having to be physically fit in an armed service. Very offensive, very racist and sexist and it has to stop.

Each of you know more about running a unit and the AF than the service chief and senior commanders. Take your AF back.

This guy claims he's against socialism, by the way

[bluegreenish]

Each base will have augmentee's just like SF Auggies. Plan on loosing people from your unit to support this task.

So many augies: SF Augies, CDF Augies, Honor Guard, Volunteers to clean the base, profiles, communitiy involvement. Soon I'll be in the shop by myself.

[bluegreenish]

Why are you all so upset over PT? Form up in numbers and refuse to do it. Yell racism and/or sexism. Unionize and TELL the commander WHAT you will do and WHEN you will do.

We're in a new age; the democrat obama age. Its about equality across the board from equalizing salary and perks to this idea of having to be physically fit in an armed service. Very offensive, very racist and sexist and it has to stop.

Each of you know more about running a unit and the AF than the service chief and senior commanders. Take your AF back.

Don't forget this is the "military". Not a civilian company. You do what you are told or your career is over.

[AF Chief]

Dude that was like the one-in-one million person who that would happen to, and yet the AF used that as leverage to blow this whole fitness thing out of proportion.

Newsflash: when I was a medical technician, I did an old school Periodic Non-Fly exam on a dude who was fit as a mule, no older than 30. He goes to London for the weekend and out of the blue drops like a bag of bricks, dying instantaneously - the cause? Cerebral embolism. I had another situation where I had a Pararescue guy shooting hoops with his buddies in the desert have the same thing happen to him - it really rattled the community at the time, yet he was in the top shape of anyone there.

Bottom line - people die, regardless of what they drink, smoke or put in their mouth. If the Air Force took more of a "Everything in moderation" approach instead of going overboard with everything, perhaps this whole thing wouldn't be such a big, pointless issue.

Exactly.

If you want to use that...we just had someone this year pass away here in Japan from a PT Test. Its going to happen...maybe they had other medical issues.

[smarg]

Exactly.

If you want to use that...we just had someone this year pass away here in Japan from a PT Test. Its going to happen...maybe they had other medical issues.

Well, YOU'D better get in shape for retirement. You'll need to work on your wind sprints to practice running away from muggers in the Phillippines. If you dare shoot a mugger or a robber, hope your relatives in the States have enough money to pay the bribe to get you out of jail and back to the States.

[WILDJOKER5]

So you complained to get your way? It shouldnt be a problem with doing an extra PT test a year, just a problem with the crappy PT sessions the PTLs think work to get people in "shape". You did it tactfully PMA? Or did you use words out of contex? How does testing more than once a year cause adverse moral concerns? How does doing this 30 mins of EASY pt session cause stress? I remeber you saying your test anxiety, but again, seriously, do you have problems forgetting how to run when the test comes up? If the HAWC tests incorrectly, then you can bring up the AFI to dispute them. Being tested more than 1 time a year does NOT go against the AFI.

You "PT audit", when was that done? Was it filled out by fatties that didnt like PT and has since been kicked out? What is a practice test going to do for most people? That is more of a downer than doing the real test.

[WILDJOKER5]

So many augies: SF Augies, CDF Augies, Honor Guard, Volunteers to clean the base, profiles, communitiy involvement. Soon I'll be in the shop by myself.

I cant wait till I have an augie to come do my job. Oh wait, you actually need some intelligence to do what I do. Augies have to be the biggest pet peeve about the AF I have. The thing that got me into the AF was the saying, "In the army, you are infantry first, your MOS second. AF, you are your AFSC, then volunteer to do combat duty." (and yes, I have volunteered)

[Jefe03]

...just a problem with the crappy PT sessions the PTLs think work to get people in "shape"...

Whoa whoa, slow your roll player. PTLs do the best they can with what they have to work with. Many times it's the choice between a tough workout that a few can participate in, and the rest will either go through the motions or quit entirely, or an easy workout that everyone can do which may be easier or seem "crappy", but at least get everyone doing something. It's especially difficult in a squadron of 50+ with a vast diversity of physical abilities. Bottom line is this: if anyone is under the impression that Unit PT is enough to keep you in well enough shape to pass the test without some outside exercise, they are sorely mistaken. Some things in life are about self-discipline, not being spoonfed the workouts that work exactly for each individual.

[VFFSSGT]

Guess it's not a rumor anymore... It's front page on the new AF Times this week. Test 2 times a year and changes to the waist measurement. Don't you love the official release we get... :rolleyes: Of course the official release will be in a month...

The PT system just went from being screwed up to being even more screwed up. This is not going to fix the main problems we have. The people, from what I have seen, we have problems with test several times a year to begin with... I am sure many like the change to the waist measurement though.

When the Air Force shifts to a punishment mentality for failing to meet standards versus a babysitting mentality until a person finally meets standards but barely (often pencil whipped to get the stats where they "need" to be) and when the AF puts its money where its mouth is we will start solving problems.

[CrustySMSgt]

Guess it's not a rumor anymore... It's front page on the new AF Times this week. Test 2 times a year and changes to the waist measurement. Don't you love the official release we get... :rolleyes: Of course the official release will be in a month...


If you read 3 paragraphs in, the "source" they used for the info was the original post in this thread. Hardly a leaked official release or credible source...

[WILDJOKER5]

Well, we need this crack shot reporting. The rumor mill is usually more acurate than first briefings we get.

[takthekak]

(lol) The PT audit was done by the AF Audit agency, and it said some nasty things about the PT program in general. That's why I cited it in my presentation. For example (from page 5 of the report):

"In particular, it is unfair and potentially demoralizing when some units hold members to higher fitness standards than others and could put the Air Force at risk for legal action if members’ Airman Performance Reports include fitness assessment scores based on inconsistent program implementation"

My opinion is a whole bunch of different people at different units throughout the AF all trying to fix this problem on their own is not going to result in success. We need our leaders to do their jobs and push the issue upwards (instead of just trying to fix it locally) - or a real fix will never come.


This reminds me back in 92 when I had a yearly weigh in and I was 201 pounds. My max was 204, b ut because I was within 10 pounds of my max, our Squadron's policy was to go to the body fat percentage. I was 21%, instead of 20 and put on the program. Took me 1 month to get under, but years later cost me the chance to compete for BTZ. There is nothing more I hate than unwritten Sq/Grp/Wng policies. Who needs AFI's, when we have those and usually they override the AFI's. Just crazy.

[sweatyAZ]

I'm so glad they put so much time, effort, and money into this study. I can't wait to see the educated changes to the program that are sorely needed. Must be extremely important to upper leadership to prioritize over the other enormouse issues that we face in the AF today.......oh wait, they just @%*$%^&* it up even worse. WOW didn't see that one comming!! And now a small glimpse into the future.........."Sir, this guy just dropped his back pack by the HQ and just walked off!". "Who cares, we have no time, get to PT!!" Aaaaaand scene!

[mfjdspence]

From what I read in the article it seems that of the 3 choices none of them actually come to address the core problem being that the test is flawed. Some argue that it is a true represenation of fitness while others as demonstrated by the most recent AFIT research paper (applause to the CE Officer for taking the initiative to write it) prove that we may not be going after the right type of fitness. It is argueable that fitness is fitness, but when we are breeding fit individuals who can not carry more than 150lbs more than 100' or so while the guy who doesn't have the "perfect" waist and struggles to pass can carry 280lbs for 1/4 mile, I say that something is definetly wrong.

I guess what I am going at here is that the three options do address serious issues, but they do not address the real problem...that the TEST IS FLAWED.

We need to go back to the drawing board, set a realistic date for compliance (+1 year aka ample opprotunity for all) and go from there. Get rid of the organized PT sessions and as this is sole achievment exercise similar to WAPS testing, CDC testing, or any other test. If we have CC's and individuals who want to group it up, then it is on a voluntary basis. I know what my body needs and I know where to get help if I need it...HAWC.

The one thing that I really hope they get rid of is the points scale. The grade is GO or NO-GO so that CC's can institute additional BS programs that go above the AFI standard just so they look good w/ the big whigs. Sure points may add up to the go or no-go, but it should not be seen by anyone but me...the test taker. I am constantly thinking to myself that should someone take their CDC's or WAPS test and just make it by a fraction of a point...especially in WAPS testing, do we put them in remedial training even though they passed? NO. Hell NO! So why are we doing it in the PT program?

[CrustySMSgt]

The one thing that I really hope they get rid of is the points scale. The grade is GO or NO-GO so that CC's can institute additional BS programs that go above the AFI standard just so they look good w/ the big whigs. Sure points may add up to the go or no-go, but it should not be seen by anyone but me...the test taker. I am constantly thinking to myself that should someone take their CDC's or WAPS test and just make it by a fraction of a point...especially in WAPS testing, do we put them in remedial training even though they passed? NO. Hell NO! So why are we doing it in the PT program?

I'm in!!!

[WILDJOKER5]

...and you know, the really crazy thing is, their general attitude about it before I called them on it was basically "we can do whatever we want because the system is broken." It was scary. During this meeting, my 1st Sgt said something to the effect of "[the CC can do whatever he/she wants if he/she thinks it is fair]." (lol) Um: what-the-f-ever, right? Thank God my CC didn't one day decide it was 'fair' to make 90 a passing score! (lol) Why even have AFIs? See, the 90 thing is covered under the AFI. Clearly stating that passing is a 75. There is no room for adjustment. Frequency of the test is different though. Memebers must be tested at least once a year. Member must always be fit to fight. If you are good to pass today, then in 6 months, you should be good to pass again. Unless you have no integrity and you let yourself go till 3 months before the test and then starve yourself. This raises the issue of, why cant you test at a moments notice today, or even next week. If you tested today and passed, then next week you can test again and pass. This is NOT an NFL football game where you have a game and you need to rest for a week so your body can recover. This test is not strenous at all.



Also, another chilling revelation from the meeting was that the leaders seemed to feel they could rationize having a local PT standard b/c we have 'local' standards for EPRs too. So (just demonstrating their logic for you), "[since the CC is technically everyone's supervisor, he can make the standard as strict as he/she wants."] Whoa. So units are like their own little fiefdoms now? This is insanity.
The EPRs are the way they are because someone some where decided all their airmen needed 5's so that they can be competitive for promotion. Well that leaked out and now everyone is doing it.


The biggest problem I see w/ the PT program is that it is causing an erosion of discipline at all ranks throughout the entire AF. CCs are doing whatever they want in order to try and 'fix' it; 1st Sgts and CEMs are either jumping on the bandwagon or going rogue and trying to fight back (not many sitting the fence on this one); and of course, based on the results of the AF PT audit, we know the lower ranks are treating this thing like a joke (by cheating and/or tacitly consenting to cheating on the test.)
Comanders are trying to fix it and little shitty airman that cant follow orders question every little thing they do. Yes, we have a break in disapline over PT, you are right for once.


See, the problem is, how far of a stretch is it REALLY for people to start saying to themselves... "well, the PT program is all messed up, so really, why are we bothering to inspect these weapon systems every so often when that is probably stupid too..." Which brings me to my next point:
You have made ramblings, no points. PT should never equate to jobs. Actually, they hears the complaints about something as mindless as PT from someone llike you, and then they say F.O.D. is mindless thing too, why should we do it? Or using T.O.s, I have done this so much I know what I am doing. Does "Postmodern" stand for "Whine until I get MY way"?


ATTENTION AF LEADERS: HELLO - HOW MANY RED LIGHTS HAVE TO FLASH IN OUR FACES BEFORE WE REALIZE THE G/D PLANE IS CRASHING!!?? WAKE UP AND DO SOMETHING!!!
This is just rediculous.


(lol) Eh... it did make me feel a little better to do that; but I'm definitely not letting the parachutes out of my sight any time soon... Hopefully one of those offices inspecting your chutes happened to cut a cord or two.

[WILDJOKER5]

Whoa whoa, slow your roll player. PTLs do the best they can with what they have to work with. Many times it's the choice between a tough workout that a few can participate in, and the rest will either go through the motions or quit entirely, or an easy workout that everyone can do which may be easier or seem "crappy", but at least get everyone doing something. It's especially difficult in a squadron of 50+ with a vast diversity of physical abilities. Bottom line is this: if anyone is under the impression that Unit PT is enough to keep you in well enough shape to pass the test without some outside exercise, they are sorely mistaken. Some things in life are about self-discipline, not being spoonfed the workouts that work exactly for each individual.
Sorry, didnt mean to slash the PTLs, it is usually the micro managing SNCOs that ruin PT programs. The work outs that the programs do I can usually get twice the workout by myself playing one sport or another. Takes very little effort to run 1.5 miles. Just having the waiste smaller helps most out tremendously.

[AlanW]

All I can say is that I am extremely dissapointed if we are only modifying the current test. The waist measurement is going up (thats fine, but I wish it was elminated altogether). The run is now worth 60%. That is too high, considering pushups and crunches may only be 20%. All of this time and effort, and this is what we end up with? I will be sure to get a copy of the AF Times and see what it says. Obviously, not much has changed. It is a shame that a CE Capt had some good ideas (I think), and an entire team of "experts" could not doing any better than he did, by himself. Oh well, such is life. I feel bad for some of the powerhouses that I know who are not the best runners, but strong as hell. I am almost in shock with how lame this new test is going to be! I could careless about testing two times a year, just wish the AF could have done better than this!

[CMSBROWN]

45 yrs old
P/U-40
Crunches-47
Run:14:00
Waist:33.5
Ht: 69"
Wt: 185

Still going strong with Degenerative Disk Disease in my C5-C6, take an anti-inflammatory every morning for it, and had torn cartilage repair in my left leg.

Stop the whining people...has some self discipline to at least pass the test with a minimum score. Do the minimum to get by just like alot do anyway. More effort is expended on why not to do it.

Like I said in another thread....funny how when your TDY to the box and work 14-16hrs people can make it a point to go to the gym....but back here its not a priority....the priority is whining about doing it.

[WILDJOKER5]

45 yrs old
P/U-40
Crunches-47
Run:14:00
Waist:33.5
Ht: 69"
Wt: 185

Still going strong with Degenerative Disk Disease in my C5-C6, take an anti-inflammatory every morning for it, and had torn cartilage repair in my left leg.

Stop the whining people...has some self discipline to at least pass the test with a minimum score. Do the minimum to get by just like alot do anyway. More effort is expended on why not to do it.

Like I said in another thread....funny how when your TDY to the box and work 14-16hrs people can make it a point to go to the gym....but back here its not a priority....the priority is whining about doing it.

I agree with you Brown, but to play devils adovocate on the priorities. In the desert, that was the only thing to kepp me from going insane. Back at home, I will make time to play sports, but my family keeps me pretty busy when I am done with work/PT. I am not a long distance runner and I just get bored running. I will do better than these numbers running if I am holding a conversation with someone while I am running. This isnt that tough to do with good eating habbits.

P/U-Max
Crunches-Max
Run:13:40
Waist:35.5
Ht: 73"
Wt: 220
Smoker

[mfjdspence]

Like I said in another thread....funny how when your TDY to the box and work 14-16hrs people can make it a point to go to the gym....but back here its not a priority....the priority is whining about doing it.

While I agree with you a to degree, let me point out that while DEPLOYED to the box working 12+ hours a day the reason you can make it to the gym is because you don't have anything else to do. It isn't like you can go spend time with your family or teach your son how to throw a baseball...you know...family things...friend things...aspects of your life that help make you the total person so you spend time in the gym to work out those frustrations and to compensate for that greasey food your spooning in every so often.

Respectfully though, if you are not over 6'4", don't complain about the waist measurement, about the run, about how many pushups or situps something is. Try walking a mile in the shoes of someone who is over 6'4" and you'll have a new found respect for the amount of effort it takes to accomplish the same job that a 5'9" fella can do. It takes more from us giants to do the same...muscle...energy...stamina than it does for your shorter folks. Why do you think that 95% of all the world class athletes are less than 6' tall? Sprinters, long distance runners, etc. Us tall folks do more with the same sized heart and lungs than you vertically challenged folks do so quit running by us screaming that we are not trying hard enough...because at the end of the race, we are the only one's who have to struggle to fit back into our cars while you use a step stool to get into your obviously oversized-overcompensating truck/suv.

[Shrike]

While I agree with you a to degree, let me point out that while DEPLOYED to the box working 12+ hours a day the reason you can make it to the gym is because you don't have anything else to do. It isn't like you can go spend time with your family or teach your son how to throw a baseball...you know...family things...friend things...aspects of your life that help make you the total person so you spend time in the gym to work out those frustrations and to compensate for that greasey food your spooning in every so often.

Yep. Aside from the "Marine sock", hitting the gym while deployed is about the only stress relief available

[WILDJOKER5]

LOL, MF, Your rant was funny. What about basketball players? I know basketball player really should be considered a "world class athlete" or even an athlete, but it takes some endurance to run up and down that court as much as they do.

[Lefty]

I usually say why fix it if it isn't broken, but the AF PT test is broken, and now seems to be getting repaired. This version of the PT test is a joke, and I consistently see skinny people score really well on it, but they can't perform the combat mission very well. I do not mind being tested twice a year, quarterly, or monthly, as long as the test is fair. If we have a fair test, I think it is time that everyone falls in line and gets into better shape. As a deployment manager, I have seen too many individuals in the AF ridiculed for their appearance in uniform. It's time we had some pride in ourselves and our service.

[CMSBROWN]

While I agree with you a to degree, let me point out that while DEPLOYED to the box working 12+ hours a day the reason you can make it to the gym is because you don't have anything else to do. It isn't like you can go spend time with your family or teach your son how to throw a baseball...you know...family things...friend things...aspects of your life that help make you the total person so you spend time in the gym to work out those frustrations and to compensate for that greasey food your spooning in every so often.

Respectfully though, if you are not over 6'4", don't complain about the waist measurement, about the run, about how many pushups or situps something is. Try walking a mile in the shoes of someone who is over 6'4" and you'll have a new found respect for the amount of effort it takes to accomplish the same job that a 5'9" fella can do. It takes more from us giants to do the same...muscle...energy...stamina than it does for your shorter folks. Why do you think that 95% of all the world class athletes are less than 6' tall? Sprinters, long distance runners, etc. Us tall folks do more with the same sized heart and lungs than you vertically challenged folks do so quit running by us screaming that we are not trying hard enough...because at the end of the race, we are the only one's who have to struggle to fit back into our cars while you use a step stool to get into your obviously oversized-overcompensating truck/suv.

Give me an other excuse....we can you can do this better then I can cause your shorter or taller...your stronger cause your bigger....try walking in any ones shoes.....blah blah blah....we spend more time making excuses as to why...why .....why then just doing it. I have a family too...I have 7 kids....thankfully only one lives at home now....but my wife, daughter and I go to the gym atleast 3 times a week. We know if we dont make time it wont happen. Again...over and over again...it boils down to self-discipline...point blank...PERIOD.

Oh and I dont have to struggle to get into my Mercedes C300, my avalanche or my jeep wrangler...I seem to fit just right in to each of them.

[CMSBROWN]

I usually say why fix it if it isn't broken, but the AF PT test is broken, and now seems to be getting repaired. This version of the PT test is a joke, and I consistently see skinny people score really well on it, but they can't perform the combat mission very well. I do not mind being tested twice a year, quarterly, or monthly, as long as the test is fair. If we have a fair test, I think it is time that everyone falls in line and gets into better shape. As a deployment manager, I have seen too many individuals in the AF ridiculed for their appearance in uniform. It's time we had some pride in ourselves and our service.


MILE HIGH SALUTE!

It is broken...and IMO the only thing that should have been fixed is the waist measurement. Adjust the max to what it is and leave the rest alone....

I totally agree with your pride in oursleves and our service comment. :D

[WILDJOKER5]

Man, how do you post pics on here?

[MACHINE666]

Man, how do you post pics on here?


Like this!

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/217faHcNjKL._SL160_AA115_.jpg


:D

[mfjdspence]

LOL, MF, Your rant was funny. What about basketball players? I know basketball player really should be considered a "world class athlete" or even an athlete, but it takes some endurance to run up and down that court as much as they do.

Knew someone would bring that up. Take a sampling of world class athletes from boxers, to sprinters, to long distance marathon runners, etc and you will find that they are of average height...about 1.8 meters or 5'9".

Sure basketball players in the pros can be considered world class athletes. Hell, I play a lot of B-ball too, but you are not about to see that same guy be competitive on the sports traditioanlly dominated by shorter in stature folks. Just like you are not going to see a lot of shorter height guys playing basketball because they can't compete at the professional level. Sure you have a few, but again the 95% rule comes into play again. Pretty interesting when you actually look into it.

[WILDJOKER5]

I agree with you MF, The true "athletes" in basket ball are the shorter players. Height in basketball is the main concern and makes the "game" even easier. I dispise baskeball.

[CMSBROWN]

I dispise baskeball.


Me too except when my squadron is playing in their ACH and IBV....then that is fun!

[mfjdspence]

Oh and I dont have to struggle to get into my Mercedes C300, my avalanche or my jeep wrangler...I seem to fit just right in to each of them.

See you also inherited Napoleon complex as well. Notice I did not list out my cars while you are obviously compensating for something by saying your make/model? Short man syndrome to the core.

I never once said it was an excuse to look like a slob or not pass the test. It was just a pointing out that those who have not walked a mile in another man's shoes, let alone even looked at them to try to understand why, shouldn't be saying that anyone is lazy.

I never understood why I couldn't compete (higher than 4th place) at the college level as hard as I tried until I went to a kinesiologist who spent a great deal of time showing me the studies and research into it.

Trust me, do a little research and you'll be surprised at the information you will find the following:

Successful Sprinters: 1.83 meters tall weighing 75-80
Successful Distance Runner: 1.8 meters tall or shorter weighing in about 68-70kg

Now in the event that you are going to throw the other argument of well we are not training to be world class, I realize that. Again though you need to look at what you vs. others and realize that the deck of cards that you were dealt in life may be better than the person next to you so don't ever assume that they are lazy unless you know it for a fact. Being tall may seem like a pretty nice world from your view, but there are a lot of problems for us big guys you don't have to deal with...like misconceptions about our work ethic by misinformed folks.

[CMSBROWN]

See you also inherited Napoleon complex as well. Notice I did not list out my cars while you are obviously compensating for something by saying your make/model? Short man syndrome to the core.

I never once said it was an excuse to look like a slob or not pass the test. It was just a pointing out that those who have not walked a mile in another man's shoes, let alone even looked at them to try to understand why, shouldn't be saying that anyone is lazy.

I never understood why I couldn't compete (higher than 4th place) at the college level as hard as I tried until I went to a kinesiologist who spent a great deal of time showing me the studies and research into it.

Trust me, do a little research and you'll be surprised at the information you will find the following:

Successful Sprinters: 1.83 meters tall weighing 75-80
Successful Distance Runner: 1.8 meters tall or shorter weighing in about 68-70kg

Now in the event that you are going to throw the other argument of well we are not training to be world class, I realize that. Again though you need to look at what you vs. others and realize that the deck of cards that you were dealt in life may be better than the person next to you so don't ever assume that they are lazy unless you know it for a fact. Being tall may seem like a pretty nice world from your view, but there are a lot of problems for us big guys you don't have to deal with...like misconceptions about our work ethic by misinformed folks.

You can have your argument all day with the pros and cons of everything...short/ tall, fat, skinny, lazy, etc....everything has its advantage and disadvantage.

My main point that I was really trying to express is that I am 45yrs and can still hang with the best of them even with my Degenerative Disk Disease in my C5-C6, take an anti-inflammatory every morning for it, and had torn cartilage repair in my left leg. It is what you want to put into it and the size of the fight you havein your heart.

I found it interesting how those who responded with their scores left their ages out.

As for being tall....its a cop out...Our Command Chief is 54yrs old....6'3 and runs a 11:30 1.5 mile.....so I could say that his stride gives him a much larger advantage than mine....so tall ox syndrome is a frame of mind.

Good luck to all on your PT tests.

[WILDJOKER5]

I thought i was the only one to respond brown. I just dont want to give out the age. I will say second teir.

[Measure Man]

You can have your argument all day with the pros and cons of everything...short/ tall, fat, skinny, lazy, etc....everything has its advantage and disadvantage.

My main point that I was really trying to express is that I am 45yrs and can still hang with the best of them even with my Degenerative Disk Disease in my C5-C6, take an anti-inflammatory every morning for it, and had torn cartilage repair in my left leg. It is what you want to put into it and the size of the fight you havein your heart..

Hey..that's what I always said too. When studying, I've never scored less than an 85 on my PFE and/or USAFSE. In my mind, anyone who doesn't get at least that...is just too lazy to study.

[BRAVO10000]

Hey..that's what I always said too. When studying, I've never scored less than an 85 on my PFE and/or USAFSE. In my mind, anyone who doesn't get at least that...is just too lazy to study.

Solid response. I have wondered when the AF would shift to an academic standard.

[CLSE]

Me too except when my squadron is playing in their ACH and IBV....then that is fun!


Chief,

I, and I'm sure quite a few others, don't have a problem with having or doing a PT test, and I don't really care if they do it once a year or once a month.

I will go so far as to agree that the people who don't want any meaningful PT test are just plain lazy.

I'm completely on board with you about needing to be in the proper physical shape to perform my duties, and them some.

The problem I have is with having a test that doesn't care at all about physical performance required for the military, and that is so heavily weighted towards the run and the the waist measurement that has absolutely no bearing on what we do.

If you're a guy, and you like you're pregnant, that's where the "Presents a professional military image" part used to come in, and should still.


I have never been a good distance runner, and I am not a small guy. The current test scoring puts me 8.25 points behind the curve just walking in the door, and I'm at a disadvantage on the run.

So, I have 80% worth of the test that's not in my favor. Those are not good odds.

I just started doing this test last year, so I am currently in the process of getting my run time down, but I'm running out of chances, and I'm not never going to be much past minimum passing.

The stress for me isn't from having to do the test, it's knowing that all it takes is one bad day on the track because of a cold, my bad ankle acting up, 100* degree weather or something else, and I fail my test.

If the test was evenly weighted between three events, like ALL of the other services have, it wouldn't be such a big deal and It would allow me to get some more margin over passing.


The Air Force seems to have perfected f**king up pudding, as the saying goes.

They did it with the new uniform (I remember the quote from somebody on the uniform board - "Effectiveness of the camouflage was not a factor. We wanted to make sure we had a distinctive uniform").

Now, they've done it with the PT test - standards that worry about the health risks of people when they're 70 years old, and don't give a shit about whether they can perform their duties or not.

It really pisses me off when I have to worry about and plan for the potential disruptions to my life that may be caused by the stupidity of others.

At some point, somebody needs to fly the bullshit flag, and that's all I ask for.

[CrustySMSgt]

my avalanche

Was going to PM you, but you've got it disabled...

I am an Av nut... unfortunately mine is stuck in storage in Seattle :(

Are you a member of: http://www.chevyavalanchefanclub.com/index.html ?

Sorry for the thread jack... back to your regularly scheduled PT discussion

[CMSBROWN]

Chief,

I, and I'm sure quite a few others, don't have a problem with having or doing a PT test, and I don't really care if they do it once a year or once a month.

I will go so far as to agree that the people who don't want any meaningful PT test are just plain lazy.

I'm completely on board with you about needing to be in the proper physical shape to perform my duties, and them some.

The problem I have is with having a test that doesn't care at all about physical performance required for the military, and that is so heavily weighted towards the run and the the waist measurement that has absolutely no bearing on what we do.

If you're a guy, and you like you're pregnant, that's where the "Presents a professional military image" part used to come in, and should still.


I have never been a good distance runner, and I am not a small guy. The current test scoring puts me 8.25 points behind the curve just walking in the door, and I'm at a disadvantage on the run.

So, I have 80% worth of the test that's not in my favor. Those are not good odds.

I just started doing this test last year, so I am currently in the process of getting my run time down, but I'm running out of chances, and I'm not never going to be much past minimum passing.

The stress for me isn't from having to do the test, it's knowing that all it takes is one bad day on the track because of a cold, my bad ankle acting up, 100* degree weather or something else, and I fail my test.

If the test was evenly weighted between three events, like ALL of the other services have, it wouldn't be such a big deal and It would allow me to get some more margin over passing.


The Air Force seems to have perfected f**king up pudding, as the saying goes.

They did it with the new uniform (I remember the quote from somebody on the uniform board - "Effectiveness of the camouflage was not a factor. We wanted to make sure we had a distinctive uniform").

Now, they've done it with the PT test - standards that worry about the health risks of people when they're 70 years old, and don't give a shit about whether they can perform their duties or not.

It really pisses me off when I have to worry about and plan for the potential disruptions to my life that may be caused by the stupidity of others.

At some point, somebody needs to fly the bullshit flag, and that's all I ask for.

I hear you Lima Charlie.

[CrustySMSgt]

Now in the event that you are going to throw the other argument of well we are not training to be world class, I realize that. Again though you need to look at what you vs. others and realize that the deck of cards that you were dealt in life may be better than the person next to you so don't ever assume that they are lazy unless you know it for a fact. Being tall may seem like a pretty nice world from your view, but there are a lot of problems for us big guys you don't have to deal with...like misconceptions about our work ethic by misinformed folks.

Sorry my friend, but I've gotta agree with CMS B on this one... I am 6'3" & 230. I just ran my second marathon... slow as shit, but I finished. I run my 1.5 in 11-something. The AF PT requirements to PASS are far from strenuous enough to stress anyone who puts a effort into it. IMHO, I'd say 90% of the Airmen I've dealt with who have problems with PT, it is a direct result of their lifestyle and level of effort. 30 min a day of arobic activity ain't gonna kill anyone... and if you value your family time, get up 30-45 min early and knock out a run before work. Again, it is all about priorities.

All the more reason to just make it a pass/fail program... because too many people get wrapped in bitching about not being able to score excellent, which clouds the entire issue about the "fairness" of the test. IF we ever get to the point that AF leadership takes PT serious enough to make it a real part of the mission, and level the playing field, then we can look into detailed scoring, as well as incentives for higher scores.

While I agree in principle with CMS B & MM on the point that we've got to suck it up and do PT on our own time if work doesn't provide duty time, it doesn't change the fact that there are a whole lot of folks who do get to shut down & do PT at their leisure, so it does give some an advantage; comparable to the edit to ban computer based WAPS study material on gov't computers, because of the imbalance of computer access.

[BRUWIN]

HAWC augmentees? This whole thing is turning into the biggest mass gaggle I've ever seen, and after 26 years of service I've seen a lot of freakin mass gaggles. One could write an entire book dedicated to the AF PT Program and throw it right into the library with all the other books on the Chief's reading list.

The time and people we are now spending on all this ain't fixing anything. It's not even funny anymore. I don't have long left in the Air Force. I really don't want to spend my last year or two trying to adjust to yet another new PT scheme. It's getting old.

But if the Air Force was really going to change anything I'd love to see them include some kind of strenght measurement. Yep...slap some 45lb'ers on that bar and let me hear those puny little runts maxing out the previous test tell me how fit they are. They'll be crying like little goddamed babies. I can just hear it all now "This test ain't fair, it doesn't properly measure my V02 areobic lung capacity and it strains my puny little 32 inch abodminal muscles." Freakin wusses.

[LOAL-D]

HAWC augmentees? This whole thing is turning into the biggest mass gaggle I've ever seen, and after 26 years of service I've seen a lot of freakin mass gaggles. One could write an entire book dedicated to the AF PT Program and throw it right into the library with all the other books on the Chief's reading list.

The time and people we are now spending on all this ain't fixing anything. It's not even funny anymore. I don't have long left in the Air Force. I really don't want to spend my last year or two trying to adjust to yet another new PT scheme. It's getting old.

But if the Air Force was really going to change anything I'd love to see them include some kind of strenght measurement. Yep...slap some 45lb'ers on that bar and let me hear those puny little runts maxing out the previous test tell me how fit they are. They'll be crying like little goddamed babies. I can just hear it all now "This test ain't fair, it doesn't properly measure my V02 areobic lung capacity and it strains my puny little 32 inch abodminal muscles." Freakin wusses.

It has passed beyond ridiculous.........

[Shrike]

HAWC augmentees? This whole thing is turning into the biggest mass gaggle I've ever seen, and after 26 years of service I've seen a lot of freakin mass gaggles. One could write an entire book dedicated to the AF PT Program and throw it right into the library with all the other books on the Chief's reading list.

The time and people we are now spending on all this ain't fixing anything. It's not even funny anymore. I don't have long left in the Air Force. I really don't want to spend my last year or two trying to adjust to yet another new PT scheme. It's getting old.

But if the Air Force was really going to change anything I'd love to see them include some kind of strenght measurement. Yep...slap some 45lb'ers on that bar and let me hear those puny little runts maxing out the previous test tell me how fit they are. They'll be crying like little goddamed babies. I can just hear it all now "This test ain't fair, it doesn't properly measure my V02 areobic lung capacity and it strains my puny little 32 inch abodminal muscles." Freakin wusses.

Agree. Looking solely at the standards, it's completely obvious that the USAF does not want people with a well-rounded level of fitness. They want skinny people who can run fast.

I've mentioned before on these boards about the first person I knew who scored a 100 on the test. She was a short, skinny MSgt. About a month after her perfect test, she moved to a different office. While moving her stuff, she could not carry a CRT computer monitor by herself. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Smeghead]

While moving her stuff, she could not carry a CRT computer monitor by herself. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

How often do we have to carry monitors in combat? :tongue:

[sigecaps]

HAWC augmentees? This whole thing is turning into the biggest mass gaggle I've ever seen, and after 26 years of service I've seen a lot of freakin mass gaggles. One could write an entire book dedicated to the AF PT Program and throw it right into the library with all the other books on the Chief's reading list.

The time and people we are now spending on all this ain't fixing anything. It's not even funny anymore. I don't have long left in the Air Force. I really don't want to spend my last year or two trying to adjust to yet another new PT scheme. It's getting old.

But if the Air Force was really going to change anything I'd love to see them include some kind of strenght measurement. Yep...slap some 45lb'ers on that bar and let me hear those puny little runts maxing out the previous test tell me how fit they are. They'll be crying like little goddamed babies. I can just hear it all now "This test ain't fair, it doesn't properly measure my V02 areobic lung capacity and it strains my puny little 32 inch abodminal muscles." Freakin wusses.

If the Air Force thought it had manning problems before, well such a test would lose AT LEAST 50% of personnel, so yeah, I don't see that ever happening. Just as our ABUs are designed for aesthetics and not combat utility, I don't think the Air Force ever intended our PT test to be an accurate reflection of (infantry) combat fitness. By it's nature, it's designed to make us reasonably fit, and weed out those who don't present a "professional image". I expect the forthcoming tweaks to better ensure that goal, not change it.

[mfjdspence]

Sorry my friend, but I've gotta agree with CMS B on this one... I am 6'3" & 230. I just ran my second marathon... slow as shit, but I finished. I run my 1.5 in 11-something. The AF PT requirements to PASS are far from strenuous enough to stress anyone who puts a effort into it. IMHO, I'd say 90% of the Airmen I've dealt with who have problems with PT, it is a direct result of their lifestyle and level of effort. 30 min a day of arobic activity ain't gonna kill anyone... and if you value your family time, get up 30-45 min early and knock out a run before work. Again, it is all about priorities.


Don't get me wrong, I do agree with him on many levels, but everyone needs to walk in another mans shoes for a bit before they chalk it up to someone being lazy. I am 6'5" and 230 +/- 5lbs depending on whether I perfomed a #2 yet or not. I get spun up typically because I got these short guys with guts running by me who still am somehow to keep below a 33"/34" waist and want to tell me how if I really dedicated myself to the effort that I would somehow be able to all that more better. I am sorry, but at some point we need to take a look at the arbitrary scale and go hey, you are taller and thus you tend/need to carry more to accomplish the same as the guy 6" shorter.



All the more reason to just make it a pass/fail program... because too many people get wrapped in bitching about not being able to score excellent, which clouds the entire issue about the "fairness" of the test. IF we ever get to the point that AF leadership takes PT serious enough to make it a real part of the mission, and level the playing field, then we can look into detailed scoring, as well as incentives for higher scores.


Completely agree. Pass or Fail is the only way to level the playing field and to stop this insane argument of why can't I get an excellent you need to change the waist measurement. There should be no score for anyone to see aside from the pass or fail and that allows us all to establish if they made it or not. Excellent and Good according to the most recent research is only accurate about 23% of the time, so lets just call them both 1 category PASS and the second category FAIL.


While I agree in principle with CMS B & MM on the point that we've got to suck it up and do PT on our own time if work doesn't provide duty time, it doesn't change the fact that there are a whole lot of folks who do get to shut down & do PT at their leisure, so it does give some an advantage; comparable to the edit to ban computer based WAPS study material on gov't computers, because of the imbalance of computer access.

I thought that computer based WAPS study material aside from that on E-Pubs was already banned. I already conduct my own training regimen off duty to ensure that I meet standards.

No disrespect to CMS B on that whole thing really, just get spun up when people arbitrarily say that someone is lazy and I felt it was important to bring to light that not everyone can be grouped into that category.

[CrustySMSgt]

I thought that computer based WAPS study material aside from that on E-Pubs was already banned. I already conduct my own training regimen off duty to ensure that I meet standards.

No disrespect to CMS B on that whole thing really, just get spun up when people arbitrarily say that someone is lazy and I felt it was important to bring to light that not everyone can be grouped into that category.

It (computer based study on duty) is already banned... because of the rationale that not everyone had access to a computer on duty. I was just comparing that to the argument that everyone has duty time to do PT.

While it may be hard to call out a stranger for being lazy... as I said, in my experience, 90% of those who don't pass ARE lazy and not dedicated to passing... the same way they score 30-40s on WAPS... because they don't study. Sure, there are some people who are genetically desitned to fail... as there are those who's lightbulb will never be bright enough to learn despite studying... but I would argue those are WAY more the exception than the rule.

[WILDJOKER5]

(lol) Sorry - a response to that is not even worth my time, man.
And hey - what is the law about showing military uniforms in movies again? I've forgotten so quickly... you know how it goes: 'garbage in, garbage out.'

Wow, really? Do you not understand what "no response" means? You obviously used your time to type something out.

As for the second part, you are showing how completly retarted you are. You are going to bring up something from another thread that I admitted to that I was misinformed. That is a simple mistake that has absolutly nothing to do with me telling you to grow up. If you dont like being told what to do, get out of the military cause there is always someone telling you what to do or how to do it.

[mfjdspence]

but I would argue those are WAY more the exception than the rule.

I can see what you are saying and understand where you are going with that.

[LOAL-D]

How often do we have to carry monitors in combat? :tongue:

Never go into a battle without your combat monitor!:D

[WILDJOKER5]

Uh-oh... yeah, sure never heard THAT one before! ;) Thanks; but I think I'll stay nonetheless. (lol)

Too bad your supervisors didnt take it out of your hands and deny you from staying in. People like you are the termite to the base of the air force.

Good thing you didnt "waist" your time "not responding" this time.

[LightBright]

Just copy the AF Academy's PT test (twice a year)
Physical Fitness Test for men:
Pullups: 21 max. 7 min
Standing long jump: 8'6 max. 6'-7' something min
Situps in 2 minutes: 95 max
Pushups in 2 minutes: 72 max
600 meter run: 1:45ish max. 2:05ish min
This is all in back to back with 2 minutes in between event. Of course this scale would have to be adjusted to age classes, but it is grueling and truly is an indicator of phyiscal fitness. (the minimums scores don't even earn a passing average though, doesn't make sense.)


Then theres the Aerobic Fitness Test:
1.5 miles: 7:40ish max? 11:15 min

[BRUWIN]

Just copy the AF Academy's PT test (twice a year)
Physical Fitness Test for men:
Pullups: 21 max. 7 min
Standing long jump: 8'6 max. 6'-7' something min
Situps in 2 minutes: 95 max
Pushups in 2 minutes: 72 max
600 meter run: 1:45ish max. 2:05ish min
This is all in back to back with 2 minutes in between event. Of course this scale would have to be adjusted to age classes, but it is grueling and truly is an indicator of phyiscal fitness. (the minimums scores don't even earn a passing average though, doesn't make sense.)


Then theres the Aerobic Fitness Test:
1.5 miles: 7:40ish max? 11:15 min


LOL...yeah lets just change that old Army slogan to "An Air Force of One". And the one that is left sure as hell won't be me.

[LightBright]

LOL...yeah lets just change that old Army slogan to "An Air Force of One". And the one that is left sure as hell won't be me.

It's just a point to all those who say the test isn't hard enough or is too oriented to the runners. Here's an extreme which in all probability the majority of airmen couldn't pass.(with each event in the PFT being 100pts out of a total 500 and a 250 needed to pass. So you don't even need to earn any points on the run to pass.)

[CrustySMSgt]

Just copy the AF Academy's PT test (twice a year)
Physical Fitness Test for men:
Pullups: 21 max. 7 min
Standing long jump: 8'6 max. 6'-7' something min
Situps in 2 minutes: 95 max
Pushups in 2 minutes: 72 max
600 meter run: 1:45ish max. 2:05ish min
This is all in back to back with 2 minutes in between event. Of course this scale would have to be adjusted to age classes, but it is grueling and truly is an indicator of phyiscal fitness. (the minimums scores don't even earn a passing average though, doesn't make sense.)


Then theres the Aerobic Fitness Test:
1.5 miles: 7:40ish max? 11:15 min


And how much of your "duty day" is dedicated to PT?

[NFCstang]

Just copy the AF Academy's PT test (twice a year)
Physical Fitness Test for men:
Pullups: 21 max. 7 min
Standing long jump: 8'6 max. 6'-7' something min
Situps in 2 minutes: 95 max
Pushups in 2 minutes: 72 max
600 meter run: 1:45ish max. 2:05ish min
This is all in back to back with 2 minutes in between event. Of course this scale would have to be adjusted to age classes, but it is grueling and truly is an indicator of phyiscal fitness. (the minimums scores don't even earn a passing average though, doesn't make sense.)


Then theres the Aerobic Fitness Test:
1.5 miles: 7:40ish max? 11:15 min

Used to do that in ROTC too but I'm not sure if they've swapped over to the new PT test. BTW, there was no 2 min between events. It used to be that you had to complete the entire pt test in under 15 min.


I thought the 1.5 used to be anything under 12min was passing though?


It's just a point to all those who say the test isn't hard enough or is too oriented to the runners. Here's an extreme which in all probability the majority of airmen couldn't pass.(with each event in the PFT being 100pts out of a total 500 and a 250 needed to pass. So you don't even need to earn any points on the run to pass.)

When I was in ROTC, I think the only event I couldn't max was the pull-ups. IIRC 4 was the minimum to get 25 pts. Other then that I used to max everything. And my 1.5 run was usually in the mid 11s. I agree that this is a lot better judge of fitness then our pt test now and more in line with a "combat" fitness as well without the stupid waist measurement

[CMSBROWN]

While it may be hard to call out a stranger for being lazy... as I said, in my experience, 90% of those who don't pass ARE lazy and not dedicated to passing...

MILE HIGH SALUTE! :D

I never said certain people on here were lazy...all I said was that you have to make time to do PT. It boils down to self-discipline.


If the shoe fits then where it.

[WILDJOKER5]

Wow, man. Just got done with my PT test today, I dont think I could do another for another year, that was WAY to stressful for me. (Sarcasm throughout) I could do it again next week and and probably get better results because I will get better the more frequently I do it.

[LightBright]

And how much of your "duty day" is dedicated to PT?

None. There aren't set times for PT, unless you are on the reconditioning program. It's whenever you have time.

[LightBright]

BTW, there was no 2 min between events. It used to be that you had to complete the entire pt test in under 15 min.


I thought the 1.5 used to be anything under 12min was passing though?




You're right about the 15 minute thing. I was wrong about the 2 minute break.

For the run it's 11:15 is 250pts.

[NFCstang]

You're right about the 15 minute thing. I was wrong about the 2 minute break.

For the run it's 11:15 is 250pts.

That 15min used to be the killer part.

You 'd get done with your 4 min of push-ups and sit-ups and only have about 5 min left so you'd take about a min break and then crank out the 600yds.

The part about that run that's a killer is that you figure an 8 min mile is 2min for 400meters. Now you have to cover an extra 200 meters in the same time to pass.

[FLAPS]

Just copy the AF Academy's PT test (twice a year)
Physical Fitness Test for men:
Pullups: 21 max. 7 min
Standing long jump: 8'6 max. 6'-7' something min
Situps in 2 minutes: 95 max
Pushups in 2 minutes: 72 max
600 meter run: 1:45ish max. 2:05ish min
This is all in back to back with 2 minutes in between event. Of course this scale would have to be adjusted to age classes, but it is grueling and truly is an indicator of phyiscal fitness. (the minimums scores don't even earn a passing average though, doesn't make sense.)


Then theres the Aerobic Fitness Test:
1.5 miles: 7:40ish max? 11:15 min

AFROTC used to do this same test (once per sem) until 1998, when it switched to only push-ups, sit-ups and the two-mile run.

[NFCstang]

AFROTC used to do this same test (once per sem) until 1998, when it switched to only push-ups, sit-ups and the two-mile run.

So basiclly, the Army PT test?

Nice.

Glad I graduated in 1997

[FLAPS]

So basiclly, the Army PT test?

Nice.

Glad I graduated in 1997

exactly...not sure what they do now. I graduated in 2000.

[Combat correspondent]

The Army doesn't do a very rigorous PT test - very simple, like ours... add an extra 1/2 mile and make the time for strength 2 minutes instead of 1.

[BRAVO10000]

The Army doesn't do a very rigorous PT test - very simple, like ours... add an extra 1/2 mile and make the time for strength 2 minutes instead of 1.

True, except that pushups, situps (not crunches) and the run are weighted. You have to score minimums in EACH category so there is no "skinny boy run fast = pass" - I believe it is 60 points of 100 in each category for most jobs. AND you can get extra points in each category, but I don't know how much over the baseline you have to go for that.

[NFCstang]

Right. You have to score a min of 60pts in each.

[RingLeader]

The AF Test is a JOKE, as people have said, skinny boy who runs scores high, BUT look at the people who get 90+, better yet who get a 100, than look at the guys who get between get lower than 90... if you need to be pulled out of a truck, dragged, carried, etc, WHO WOULD YOU RATHER HAVE AS A WINGMAN?

Enough said!!!! We ALL know the answer!!!!

60 points for the run, no "extra" points for more sits up or push ups, what?

Be real AF SR Leadership!!! WHO DO YOU WANT AS A WINGMAN IN COMBAT WHEN SOMETHING HAPPENS and you need help?

As I have told anyone who will listen, lol, put me up against all and any 100 point people and let's play war games, in the end this ~83-85 guy will be standing LONG after the 100 boys are...

And PLEASE don't get me started about the womens score,there is NOTHING more that will piss off many airman (I will say the MAJORITY) than seeing what they score after how little they have to do...

[Smeghead]

... if you need to be pulled out of a truck, dragged, carried, etc,...

People keep touting this, but seriously, of the 320 something thousand in the Air Force, how many have or will need to be dragged out of a truck? I'm just sayin'

[WILDJOKER5]

People keep touting this, but seriously, of the 320 something thousand in the Air Force, how many have or will need to be dragged out of a truck? I'm just sayin'

If the numbers of 70% of the AF has deployed, then there would be a good chance that one day there is a good possibility it could happen. It is a test to see if we are "fit to FIGHT". Not fit to live till we are 80.

[BRUWIN]

People keep touting this, but seriously, of the 320 something thousand in the Air Force, how many have or will need to be dragged out of a truck? I'm just sayin'

You've never been a maintenance troop riding on a launch truck have you?

[AF Chief]

45 yrs old
P/U-40
Crunches-47
Run:14:00
Waist:33.5
Ht: 69"
Wt: 195

Still going strong with Degenerative Disk Disease in my C5-C6, take an anti-inflammatory every morning for it, and had torn cartilage repair in my left leg.

Stop the whining people...has some self discipline to at least pass the test with a minimum score. Do the minimum to get by just like alot do anyway. More effort is expended on why not to do it.



CMSBROWN. I agree with what you have posted here. Although, I do have some sympathy for the bigger guys or guys that weightlift. I have been a weightlifter for 25 years. I still lift weights, but I needed to focus more on the run as the AF didn't care how much weight I could lift. I needed to change my priorities.

I think your right in people need to focus what is required of them. I am not a tall guy, but I am built like a weight lifter with a lot of weight in my arms and chest. I was normally running in the 13s for my mile and a half when I decided the AF wants me to run so I will dedicate more time to running when I can.

I do have the luxury of being able to do PT with my folks during the week. If I get a lunch, then I try to go do 45 minutes of running or weightlifting. While I am doing this, some people in my shop are taking smoke breaks and ordering out from Burger King and PIzza Hut.

I suffer from the same Degenerative Disk Disease in my C5-C6 as you do. Not only do I take inflammatory meds, but I get a cortizone shot every 3-4 months between the disks.

I also have 3 tears in my rotator cuff that I have been putting off surgery. I actually have to go see a physical therapist for a pre-surgery workout this month.

I also had deviated septum surgery for breathing issues not 3 months ago.

With all this going on and my weightlifter build, you would think I suck at the PT test. This is what I tested 5 months ago:

P/U-50 (max in half the alloted time)
Crunches-50 (max outed in 60 seconds)
Run:10:47
Waist:34.00
Ht: 71"
Wt: 185

SCORE: 90

I thought with a run like that I could do better, but I couldn't. My point is even with all the physical ailments I have, I try to give it 110%. If anyone thinks I couldn't go get on a profile for any of these three ailments, they are crazy. I refuse to do so. I set the example for the folks under me. If they see me trying my hardest, my hope is that they will do the same.

I always tell them, "its mind over body". What is in it for you? What is the outcome? If I see them slacking in a PT run and they don't come up with good results, I ask them, "If I was to give everyone a day off for running under 14 minutes mile and a half (just throwing that time in there), how many of you would of done it? Everyone's hands go up that didn't meet the 14 minute run.

I run because I know I have to. I run because I know I don't want to be pressured by failing a PT test. I run because I don't want to be embarrased by failing a PT test when all my Airmen are looking up to me. How the hell can I fail a PT test and then ask everyone working for me to pass the PT test?

But, that is just me. I guess I am Old School.

[CrustySMSgt]

I thought with a run like that I could do better, but I couldn't. My point is even with all the physical ailments I have, I try to give it 110%. If anyone thinks I couldn't go get on a profile for any of these three ailments, they are crazy. I refuse to do so. I set the example for the folks under me. If they see me trying my hardest, my hope is that they will do the same.

I always tell them, "its mind over body". What is in it for you? What is the outcome? If I see them slacking in a PT run and they don't come up with good results, I ask them, "If I was to give everyone a day off for running under 14 minutes mile and a half (just throwing that time in there), how many of you would of done it? Everyone's hands go up that didn't meet the 14 minute run.

I run because I know I have to. I run because I know I don't want to be pressured by failing a PT test. I run because I don't want to be embarrased by failing a PT test when all my Airmen are looking up to me. How the hell can I fail a PT test and then ask everyone working for me to pass the PT test?

But, that is just me. I guess I am Old School.

Amen brother!

[LOAL-D]

Still need to impement dizzy-beer-bat test :D :D

[sigecaps]

6'1", 185 lbs is a weightlifter build? :confused:

[LOAL-D]

6'1", 185 lbs is a weightlifter build? :confused:

I was gonna say 12 oz curls, but the weight would probably be 285 lbs :tongue:

[AF Chief]

6'1", 185 lbs is a weightlifter build? :confused:

Weightlifter build, I mean I am by no means skinny, I am stocky. Remember, I am near 44 years old. Even at that age I still run a 10:47 mile and a half. I haven't measured my arms or chest in years, but I would think 15 1/2 arms and 45 inch chest. Is that huge? Hell No. But, its not skinny or fat either.

[mfjdspence]

6'1", 185 lbs is a weightlifter build? :confused:

Now now...let's not start poking fun at someone's body image. We already have enough of that going on with our 32" waist standards.

Thanks AF Chief for at least taking time to consider what I said. I full heartedly believe that state of mind has a great deal to do with it, but there is only so much a positive attitude and willingness to reach for that next step can do...when the body isn't willing to cooperate. Good to see that others understand it too.

Sounds like back problems are pretty prevalent on this BB. Could there be a commonality to the careerfield perhaps? Cortizone shots build up a lot of scar tissue if I remember correctly.

[Silver Fox]

6'1", 185 lbs is a weightlifter build? :confused:

I've seen some pretty ripped up dudes at 185.

[CMSBROWN]

Weightlifter build, I mean I am by no means skinny, I am stocky. Remember, I am near 44 years old. Even at that age I still run a 10:47 mile and a half. I haven't measured my arms or chest in years, but I would think 15 1/2 arms and 45 inch chest. Is that huge? Hell No. But, its not skinny or fat either.


No your just BIG BONED!

LMAO! Couldnt' resist Chief!:D

[CMSBROWN]

CMSBROWN. I agree with what you have posted here. Although, I do have some sympathy for the bigger guys or guys that weightlift. I have been a weightlifter for 25 years. I still lift weights, but I needed to focus more on the run as the AF didn't care how much weight I could lift. I needed to change my priorities.

I think your right in people need to focus what is required of them. I am not a tall guy, but I am built like a weight lifter with a lot of weight in my arms and chest. I was normally running in the 13s for my mile and a half when I decided the AF wants me to run so I will dedicate more time to running when I can.

I do have the luxury of being able to do PT with my folks during the week. If I get a lunch, then I try to go do 45 minutes of running or weightlifting. While I am doing this, some people in my shop are taking smoke breaks and ordering out from Burger King and PIzza Hut.

I suffer from the same Degenerative Disk Disease in my C5-C6 as you do. Not only do I take inflammatory meds, but I get a cortizone shot every 3-4 months between the disks.

I also have 3 tears in my rotator cuff that I have been putting off surgery. I actually have to go see a physical therapist for a pre-surgery workout this month.

I also had deviated septum surgery for breathing issues not 3 months ago.

With all this going on and my weightlifter build, you would think I suck at the PT test. This is what I tested 5 months ago:

P/U-50 (max in half the alloted time)
Crunches-50 (max outed in 60 seconds)
Run:10:47
Waist:34.00
Ht: 71"
Wt: 185

SCORE: 90

I thought with a run like that I could do better, but I couldn't. My point is even with all the physical ailments I have, I try to give it 110%. If anyone thinks I couldn't go get on a profile for any of these three ailments, they are crazy. I refuse to do so. I set the example for the folks under me. If they see me trying my hardest, my hope is that they will do the same.

I always tell them, "its mind over body". What is in it for you? What is the outcome? If I see them slacking in a PT run and they don't come up with good results, I ask them, "If I was to give everyone a day off for running under 14 minutes mile and a half (just throwing that time in there), how many of you would of done it? Everyone's hands go up that didn't meet the 14 minute run.

I run because I know I have to. I run because I know I don't want to be pressured by failing a PT test. I run because I don't want to be embarrased by failing a PT test when all my Airmen are looking up to me. How the hell can I fail a PT test and then ask everyone working for me to pass the PT test?

But, that is just me. I guess I am Old School.

MILE HIGH SALUTE! :D

[CommunityEditor]

Editorial: Toward a fitter force (http://www.airforcetimes.com/community/opinion/airforce_editorial_fitter_050409/)


The last time the Air Force overhauled its annual physical fitness test, in 2004, the goal was to make airmen fit to fight.

Today, slightly more than half of active-duty members — 55 percent — are overweight by Air Force standards. Nearly 97 percent of active-duty members, though, pass the fitness test.

When nearly every airman passes the fitness test despite the fact that those who are within weight standards are in the minority, something is out of whack. In this case, the fitness test is soft.

Leaders are going to get another chance to get the service back in shape through changes to the PT test to be announced this summer. Chief of Staff Gen. Norton A. Schwartz has been briefed on the changes, which reportedly include two physical fitness tests a year instead of one and a more generous maximum waist measurement.

Those are good and necessary changes, but the Air Force needs to go further and shape a force for which fitness is not just a tough requirement but also part of the culture of wearing the uniform.

Here are some measures toward that goal:

• Exercises should be tailored toward developing the strength and stamina needed for the jobs airmen do. Marines undergo combat fitness tests aimed at getting them in shape for the ground pounding they do. Flight-line jobs and other Air Force assignments come with their own brand of tough physical demands and it just makes sense to specifically prepare airmen to meet the challenges.

• After five years, it’s about time the Air Force ditched the 32-inch waist. That is an unrealistic standard for many otherwise fit airmen and, given that it does not factor in height, a ridiculous one to boot. So Air Force leaders absolutely must implement a height-weight proportion for a new waist-size requirement, or the change would be folly.

• Two tests a year are better than one. But if the Air Force truly wants to change the culture, it needs to implement quarterly tests. Then, airmen are sure to work out year-round.

[CrustySMSgt]

Here are some measures toward that goal:

• Exercises should be tailored toward developing the strength and stamina needed for the jobs airmen do. Marines undergo combat fitness tests aimed at getting them in shape for the ground pounding they do. Flight-line jobs and other Air Force assignments come with their own brand of tough physical demands and it just makes sense to specifically prepare airmen to meet the challenges.

• After five years, it’s about time the Air Force ditched the 32-inch waist. That is an unrealistic standard for many otherwise fit airmen and, given that it does not factor in height, a ridiculous one to boot. So Air Force leaders absolutely must implement a height-weight proportion for a new waist-size requirement, or the change would be folly.

• Two tests a year are better than one. But if the Air Force truly wants to change the culture, it needs to implement quarterly tests. Then, airmen are sure to work out year-round.[/I]


1) So you recommend incorperating coffee-mug curls, 3-finger pushups to prepare us to hit "ctrl-alt-delete", and copier toner lifts into our PT program... so we train for our day-to-day jobs? General fitness (strength, endurance, stamina) is easily achieved through an effective PT regiment. We don't need tool-box lifts, AGE eqmt pushes, and all that to train/measure fitness.

2) 32" waist is the "ideal." Doesn't mean everyone should have them. That is like saying we should scrap 100 being perfect on tests, because not everyone can get them... so how about we lower the top score to 80.

3) Agreed! We should meet the standard at all times... quarterly evals would "motivate" everyone to meet the standard.

[LOAL-D]

1) So you recommend incorperating coffee-mug curls, 3-finger pushups to prepare us to hit "ctrl-alt-delete", and copier toner lifts into our PT program... so we train for our day-to-day jobs? General fitness (strength, endurance, stamina) is easily achieved through an effective PT regiment. We don't need tool-box lifts, AGE eqmt pushes, and all that to train/measure fitness.

2) 32" waist is the "ideal." Doesn't mean everyone should have them. That is like saying we should scrap 100 being perfect on tests, because not everyone can get them... so how about we lower the top score to 80.

3) Agreed! We should meet the standard at all times... quarterly evals would "motivate" everyone to meet the standard.

You left out speed-surfing and Powerpoint proficiency:)

[germb747]

Reservists performing drills one weekend per month / two weeks per year barely have enough time to accomplish all required training as it is. Now we're going to have to take more time away from our training to waste with this BS! Something has to give. Self Aid Buddy Care? Pee test?

[CrustySMSgt]

Reservists performing drills one weekend per month / two weeks per year barely have enough time to accomplish all required training as it is. Now we're going to have to take more time away from our training to waste with this BS! Something has to give. Self Aid Buddy Care? Pee test?

Not to turn this into an AD versus guard/reserve issue... but if you get the call to activate tomorrow, you are required to be in standards, so unless you're natually fit, this is something you've got to still do on your time. Understand the time constraints of drilling, so if you were just refering to the time during drill required to do testing, I can see how more frequent testing will just increase that burden.

[Smeghead]

1) So you recommend incorperating coffee-mug curls, 3-finger pushups to prepare us to hit "ctrl-alt-delete", and copier toner lifts into our PT program... so we train for our day-to-day jobs? General fitness (strength, endurance, stamina) is easily achieved through an effective PT regiment. We don't need tool-box lifts, AGE eqmt pushes, and all that to train/measure fitness.

Why wouldn't we make PT requirements match the job? If something goes drastically, and I mean drastically, wrong at an ICBM LF, no amount of PT is gonna make a damn bit of difference. That missileer locked up downstairs can run his mile and half in 10 seconds and bust out 5,000,000 push-ups, it ain't gonna help.

[sigecaps]

Why wouldn't we make PT requirements match the job? If something goes drastically, and I mean drastically, wrong at an ICBM LF, no amount of PT is gonna make a damn bit of difference. That missileer locked up downstairs can run his mile and half in 10 seconds and bust out 5,000,000 push-ups, it ain't gonna help.

Haven't you heard Smeg the situation that every Airman must prepare for? What if the missilier wakes up one day and finds himself in a convoy, how is he going to pull a casualty off the 50 cal and take over the position should his convoy get ambushed? :rolleyes:

[mfjdspence]

While I can see the point on the 4 times a year testing, it does beg to ask the question whether or not that will increase the chance of someone testing with an injury or the number of waivers generated in a year. Seems counterproductive if it is going to put more stress on an overly stressed careerfield at the hospital just so that we can rest on the laurels that we are making sure that everyone is good to go at all times.

Some squadrons are already un-official testing on a quarterly basis and some even on a every other month basis. Those squadrons need to provide their testing data and injury rates to those who are in charge to see if it actually made a difference or if it did anything at all. It is always good to have real empirical data.

Still want a GO-NO GO test vs. one on a grading system. I still believe that it will eliminate any squadron based BS associated with the almost passing group. While it is not a concern of mine, I have troops that get squirreled into that for having a slower than normal run time on occasion. Happens to all of us.

[Shrike]

Let's just scrap our primary mission and do PT all day, every day. That way, we'll be 100% sure that everyone is skinny and runs fast even though being so contributes absolutely zilch to the primary mission of the USAF. But to the shallow morons who are so all-consumed with image, MAN will we look sharp in our pretty uniforms.

[Smeghead]

Haven't you heard Smeg the situation that every Airman must prepare for? What if the missilier wakes up one day and finds himself in a convoy, how is he going to pull a casualty off the 50 cal and take over the position should his convoy get ambushed? :rolleyes:

In North Dakota? :D

[AHolmes79]

The change is fine by me, although I think we'll need more revisions.

I'm definitely for the idea of testing 4 times a year in hopes of it keeping people honest and in shape. I do have concerns about the administration of the test (i.e. testing 4 times a year some place like Minot, ND could be difficult) as well as the program itself. Its nice to take the program more seriously, but that attitude has to be maintained year round, not just when its test time.

I don't know for a fact if it would help or not, but I'd like to see all units keep track of their folks on a monthly basis. Weight, their waste, pushups, situps, and their run times, all recorded every month. I'm sure some people would wreck the intent of administering the program like this, but if it worked, the goal would be to keep the pressure on, so people don't become lazy. Also, if you notice a person slips for a couple of months in a row, it might not be a bad idea to stay on that persons back in month 3 in hopes of them passing when it counts. There shouldn't be many surprises with this approach, at least in theory.

Finally, I know the goal is to make us all stick thin marathon runners that love our short shorts, but doesn't strength count for anything? I mean I realize we have a lot of office warriors, but if we're seriously preaching about being ready to go down range and do whatever is asked of us (i.e. convoy support), shouldn't we at least need to be strong enough to carry our frickin' equipment? I don't know about the rest of you, but I've seen males and females that don't appear up to the task (I'm currently deployed). To me, that's a little pathetic.

[eichampt1]

I've seen some pretty ripped up dudes at 185.

I bet you have. It's probably your only other hobby

[ART]

Not to turn this into an AD versus guard/reserve issue... but if you get the call to activate tomorrow, you are required to be in standards, so unless you're natually fit, this is something you've got to still do on your time. Understand the time constraints of drilling, so if you were just refering to the time during drill required to do testing, I can see how more frequent testing will just increase that burden.

We simply do not have the time to test more often than we do. Our traditional reservists have 38 days a year to comply with all of the ancillary training requirements, physicals, quarterly commander calls, wing picnics, and the other assorted garbage that the active force has 365 days for, in addition to training for and staying relatively proficient at their primary duty.

But if the AF finds it comforting to have activated reservists who can pass a PT test and don a JSLST in under a minute, but can't perform their job, who am I to argue? The way I see it, the Air Force has decided that this is what they prefer over a guy who can do the job he was activated and deployed to perform.

[Sgt HULK]

45 yrs old
P/U-40
Crunches-47
Run:14:00
Waist:33.5
Ht: 69"
Wt: 185

Still going strong with Degenerative Disk Disease in my C5-C6, take an anti-inflammatory every morning for it, and had torn cartilage repair in my left leg.

Stop the whining people...has some self discipline to at least pass the test with a minimum score. Do the minimum to get by just like alot do anyway. More effort is expended on why not to do it.

Like I said in another thread....funny how when your TDY to the box and work 14-16hrs people can make it a point to go to the gym....but back here its not a priority....the priority is whining about doing it.

Back here there are other things then just work. In the sand box there is no family to go home too. no nagging children who need hel with homework, no wife who has a honey do list. No house maint that needs to be cared for. just a tiny room and time on your hands deployments dont translate to real world

btw just for the sake of tossing stats out

30 yrs old
75 inch
waist 34
235lbs
56 push
56 sit
13:15 1.5 mile

so im screwed with this new pt test I'll almost certainly end up under an 80 . im trying to drop weight but in doing so im gonna lose alot of muscle as well

for the stats that matter in a combat zone
Bench 385
squat 425 ( prob more if i wasnt a chicken and afraid of blowing my knees out
deadlift 485

you guys will want to be on convoy duty with me if something happens and not johnny trackstar who can run faster then me

[LOAL-D]

Back here there are other things then just work. In the sand box there is no family to go home too. no nagging children who need hel with homework, no wife who has a honey do list. No house maint that needs to be cared for. just a tiny room and time on your hands deployments dont translate to real world

btw just for the sake of tossing stats out

30 yrs old
75 inch
waist 34
235lbs
56 push
56 sit
13:15 1.5 mile

so im screwed with this new pt test I'll almost certainly end up under an 80 . im trying to drop weight but in doing so im gonna lose alot of muscle as well

for the stats that matter in a combat zone
Bench 385
squat 425 ( prob more if i wasnt a chicken and afraid of blowing my knees out
deadlift 485

you guys will want to be on convoy duty with me if something happens and not johnny trackstar who can run faster then me

Yeah, as a human shield if nothing else!:)

[CrustySMSgt]

so im screwed with this new pt test I'll almost certainly end up under an 80 . im trying to drop weight but in doing so im gonna lose alot of muscle as well


Before you get too spun up... I'd wait and see what the actual new guidance is before I made any drastic changes. There is a whole lot of speculation and rumor floating around... we won't know what the real deal is until it comes out of the CSAF's mouth at Corona...

[Shrike]

We simply do not have the time to test more often than we do. Our traditional reservists have 38 days a year to comply with all of the ancillary training requirements, physicals, quarterly commander calls, wing picnics, and the other assorted garbage that the active force has 365 days for, in addition to training for and staying relatively proficient at their primary duty.

But if the AF finds it comforting to have activated reservists who can pass a PT test and don a JSLST in under a minute, but can't perform their job, who am I to argue? The way I see it, the Air Force has decided that this is what they prefer over a guy who can do the job he was activated and deployed to perform.

Style over substance is what the 21st Century USAF is all about!

;)

[LOAL-D]

Style over substance is what the 21st Century USAF is all about!

;)

Dont you know substance, much like reality, is vastly over-rated......

[HawaiianTSgt]

I just got to reading what the projected new standard will be. Pretty disappointing.

I went through just about all the posts, but just felt like jumping in at around page 15.

PT. It's needs to be a way of life. I'm a shift worker who works a lot of 8's, 12's, crazy rotating shifts. I have an 8 month old daughter who I adore like crazy. Regardless of what time I get off of work or how long I've been working, I go to the gym, get a CrossFit workout in and go home feeling good. Feeling like I'm leading by example. Feeling like I'm living a healthy lifestyle so I can set the standard for those who I lead, so I can hopefully live a long healthy life, so I can hopefully run on the beach with my daughter, so that she can grow up and see the benefits of taking time out of your life to do some physical activity. To be healthy.

PT tests....I'm 5'8", 180 pounds, 27 yrs old, 32 inch waste. Max everything out but the run. The fastest I have ever ran a mile and a half is 11:55. Granted I'm running at 4300 feet elevation and I hate running. The huge focus on the running portion of our PT test is asinine! 60% of a test that will be on your EPR if you don't meet the standard? I applaud marathon runners and folks that get a kick out of running 5Ks daily. That's definitely something I respect, but running by itself absolutely does not mean you are fit to fight, or fit to lead.

I'm sure everyone has heard of CrossFit...if not check them out at crossfit.com. Try a couple of the workouts and tell me that personnel that do CrossFit aren't in shape. They can't max their run, but they can do 100 pullups in 5 minutes time.

I read a post of someone saying something along the lines of just being fit enough to do their jobs. That's ridiculous. Cops sit on the ramp, PJ's train all day, CE works out in the sun and lug things everywhere. If the saying is, "one team, one fight" why would we have such different standards? I was at an AF event recently, we had an individual run the 1.5 in 9:50. But he could only do 6 pullups, 20 Push ups, 30 Sit ups. While this guy was a great runner, his strength was substandard in my book. I don't make the rules, but again, it should be a GENERAL FORM OF FITNESS test. Not just a running test.

I love PT, I love fitness, I love not being able to breathe after one of my workouts. But all that work I put in doesn't necessarily reflect when I take my PT tests...

GENERAL FORM OF FITNESS....running, physical strength, BMI, mental strength, healthy eating habits...

[LOAL-D]

[QUOTE:] GENERAL FORM OF FITNESS....running, physical strength, BMI, mental strength, healthy eating habits...

I’m curious what the mental strength test would consist of……………

[HawaiianTSgt]

[QUOTE:] GENERAL FORM OF FITNESS....running, physical strength, BMI, mental strength, healthy eating habits...

I’m curious what the mental strength test would consist of……………

I didn't mean to say those should be testable areas. That's some of the areas that I feel are general fitness areas.

[LOAL-D]

I didn't mean to say those should be testable areas. That's some of the areas that I feel are general fitness areas.


Ha ha,I was hoping to get to do crossworld puzzles, or answer riddles or play jeopardy or something for fitness points...:)

[Smeghead]

I read a post of someone saying something along the lines of just being fit enough to do their jobs. That's ridiculous. Cops sit on the ramp, PJ's train all day, CE works out in the sun and lug things everywhere...

As has been said many, many times in this and other threads "The Air Force did just fine for 50 years without a PT test." So tell me why having fitness that matches the job is ridiculous? We already had that system in place, I don't remember seeing any fat PJs or fat cops on the gate. In fact, cops were pretty quick to start shitcanning their broken/fat boys. People who work in the sun and lug things everywhere also had it covered, you wouldn't last in that job if you couldn't keep--that kind of physical work is its own PT.


I'm sure everyone has heard of CrossFit...if not check them out at crossfit.com. Try a couple of the workouts and tell me that personnel that do CrossFit aren't in shape. They can't max their run, but they can do 100 pullups in 5 minutes time.

Awesome, but the Air Force doesn't care about that--which is part of the problem.

I'm not anti-PT. I'm anti the importance that is placed on it. No one should get an automatic referral EPR for it. The funny thing about this discussion is that I think everyone is in agreement, we just express it differently. We're a video game/fast food/couch potato generation, anything that creates a healthier force is a good thing. Acting as though PT is the only thing that matters is not.

Someone mentioned a while ago how McPeak brought all these uniform changes in to get everybody all riled up and distract them from the other problems. I can't help but think the PT program is the same.

[HawaiianTSgt]

Smeg,

Luckily you didn't hammer me too hard on my point of view...mahalo!

But to get to the topic about each AFSC doing their own thing. To me, it's all about standardization. We wear the same uniform, we follow the same regulations, etc. The only thing that differs between each AFSC in my eyes would be the jobs they do and sometimes the headgear to distinguish them from others.

Now why would we differentiate PT standards? I find that while majority of us didn't see us being so expeditionary 10 years ago, that's what we are. I'm in the Command Post and know someone who headed down range to work gates and was directly attached to the Army. Now, coming from the cop career field, I would welcome that. But for a career command post person to go down range and not sit in the CP, relatively safe, how would running 1.5 miles with very little focus on stregth and combat type exercises help that individual? We were taught to train for the worse...learn your job, read the regs so if the question did come up, you could look it up or you already know the answer. In a combat situation where you get tagged to do something way outside of your norm, you can't just look it up and all of a sudden be combat ready. 50 years ago, there wasn't a thing called JETT or ILO or whatever you want to call it. Nowadays, it's a reality...

Fitness isn't just numbers in a lot of cases.

[LOAL-D]

It's a big AF, not just cops,PJs, TACPs,etc, are we gonna train some guy who sits in front of a computer all day to combat fitness shape? I hear you, I say have a basic test, then specialize for the combat related career fields where being in uber shape is necessary.

[HawaiianTSgt]

That's the whole thing. We shouldn't have to start from the ground-up when talking about being an Expeditionary Airman. The PT program should strive for a standard the doesn't focus on one particular area. It should be a General Fitness test...those that you describe as Ubershape should probably already have a more strict PT program.

Another thing that a SNCO told me once is...the PT test should be a helluva lot easier than your PT program.

[AHolmes79]

Another thing that a SNCO told me once is...the PT test should be a helluva lot easier than your PT program.

I wish that was the norm, but God forbid anyone cuts into our daily goof-off itme with something like PT. I mean, how the heck are we supposed to b.s. with co-workers, surf the internet, take multiple smoke breaks, make numerous trips to the coffee maker, take extra long lunches, run errands during the day, and hit up the snack bar for various goodies throughout the day, all while pretending to be overwhelmed with work, if we have to participate in a PT program that requires us to do more than throw a frisbee or hit a volleyball? It's just not fair. :(

;)

[LOAL-D]

I wish that was the norm, but God forbid anyone cuts into our daily goof-off itme with something like PT. I mean, how the heck are we supposed to b.s. with co-workers, surf the internet, take multiple smoke breaks, make numerous trips to the coffee maker, take extra long lunches, run errands during the day, and hit up the snack bar for various goodies throughout the day, all while pretending to be overwhelmed with work, if we have to participate in a PT program that requires us to do more than throw a frisbee or hit a volleyball? It's just not fair. :(

;)


Hey, you just described my typical duty day! You been following me around?;)

[AHolmes79]

Hey, you just described my typical duty day! You been following me around?;)

I'm thinking we might work in the same office. :tongue:

[Shrike]

I read a post of someone saying something along the lines of just being fit enough to do their jobs. That's ridiculous. Cops sit on the ramp, PJ's train all day, CE works out in the sun and lug things everywhere. If the saying is, "one team, one fight" why would we have such different standards?

Why is it ridiculous? It worked well for 60 years. Actually, it didn't just work well, it worked stunningly, amazingly well.

Is it a coincidence that the USAF has experienced a ton of problems since it has suffered an identity crisis and tried to reinvent itself as the WarriAir Force? In my opinion, no.

[HawaiianTSgt]

Why is it ridiculous? It worked well for 60 years. Actually, it didn't just work well, it worked stunningly, amazingly well.

Is it a coincidence that the USAF has experienced a ton of problems since it has suffered an identity crisis and tried to reinvent itself as the WarriAir Force? In my opinion, no.

Someone about 5 posts up asked the same question...here's a copy&paste of my response. Take your time...read a bit.

Now why would we differentiate PT standards? I find that while majority of us didn't see us being so expeditionary 10 years ago, that's what we are. I'm in the Command Post and know someone who headed down range to work gates and was directly attached to the Army. Now, coming from the cop career field, I would welcome that. But for a career command post person to go down range and not sit in the CP, relatively safe, how would running 1.5 miles with very little focus on stregth and combat type exercises help that individual? We were taught to train for the worse...learn your job, read the regs so if the question did come up, you could look it up or you already know the answer. In a combat situation where you get tagged to do something way outside of your norm, you can't just look it up and all of a sudden be combat ready. 50 years ago, there wasn't a thing called JETT or ILO or whatever you want to call it. Nowadays, it's a reality...

[HawaiianTSgt]

All...

I apologize for sounding extra passionate about PT. It's just that while at the NCOA, a lot of E-6s...a good percentage of the leaders look at PT and say, I'm just hoping for a 75. I could've swore that our responsibility is to meet and/or exceed the standards. If you set low standards for yourself, troops, future leaders will be weak sauce too. If you approach PT half ass, it's not OK to make up for substandard performance with outstanding duty performance. It's about the whole person concept...leading in all aspects of the things we are tasked with.

Again...sorry, but the middle men/women...leaders should be stepping it up.

[Shrike]

Someone about 5 posts up asked the same question...here's a copy&paste of my response. Take your time...read a bit.
I guess I should recommend that you take your own advice and read a bit, as there have been about a dozen threads devoted to this very subject. In those threads, these exact same arguments have been gone over...and over...and over...ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

Here's one thread (http://www.militarytimes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1576040)

And another (http://www.militarytimes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1575510)

And another (http://www.militarytimes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1575766)

And another (http://www.militarytimes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1573658)

And another (http://www.militarytimes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1563289)

And another (http://www.militarytimes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1574751)

And another (http://www.militarytimes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1574283)

And another (http://www.militarytimes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1573931)

And another (http://www.militarytimes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1573538)

And another (http://www.militarytimes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1570085)


And those are just since 1 Jan 09.

[mfjdspence]

Shrike, while I can agree with you and many others here I do realize that PT needs to be a fact of life in our daily lives. Regardless of how the AF wants to go about it, we all need to take a bit of personal responsibility and take care of ourselves and make sure that we are healthy.

The whole argument about testing 4x's a year or 2x's a year or even 1x a year is moot. If people were concerend really with people being in/out of standards at all times, what is stopping them from enforcing the "on duty" 24x7 rule? On duty 24x7 truely means on duty and therefore you can't drink and in situations you can't smoke. Is anyone raising hell about that?

What is really boils down to is this: There needs to be a standard....1 SINGLE STANDARD...and everyone needs to meet that standard. No Wing, Group, Squadron Commander second set of rules or "almost" passing standard. However, as with everything our leadership needs to realize that just like your mind, your body can only perform the best it can on any given day regardless of the test results. No fat boy class in the world is going to fix that issue. No amount of stern talking, or even a 30+ day waiting period/remedial program.

I feel that testing should be same as all other tests we take and doctor's visits we get. Everyone tests 1x a year w/ a bi-annual weigh in. Should your weight fluctuate more than 15lbs, you get an auto health examination and if deemed healthy, re-test. The test should be GO-NO GO to avoid biased local PT programs. Last but not least, PT programs should be reevaluated to determine if it has helped or taken away from the duty day. I would surmise that it has taken away more than it has contributed both in stress to many in the force and in lost man-hours. I personally am motivated enough to do PT on my own.

Just an opinion...

[Shrike]

Shrike, while I can agree with you and many others here I do realize that PT needs to be a fact of life in our daily lives. Regardless of how the AF wants to go about it, we all need to take a bit of personal responsibility and take care of ourselves and make sure that we are healthy.

The whole argument about testing 4x's a year or 2x's a year or even 1x a year is moot. If people were concerend really with people being in/out of standards at all times, what is stopping them from enforcing the "on duty" 24x7 rule? On duty 24x7 truely means on duty and therefore you can't drink and in situations you can't smoke. Is anyone raising hell about that?

What is really boils down to is this: There needs to be a standard....1 SINGLE STANDARD...and everyone needs to meet that standard. No Wing, Group, Squadron Commander second set of rules or "almost" passing standard. However, as with everything our leadership needs to realize that just like your mind, your body can only perform the best it can on any given day regardless of the test results. No fat boy class in the world is going to fix that issue. No amount of stern talking, or even a 30+ day waiting period/remedial program.

I feel that testing should be same as all other tests we take and doctor's visits we get. Everyone tests 1x a year w/ a bi-annual weigh in. Should your weight fluctuate more than 15lbs, you get an auto health examination and if deemed healthy, re-test. The test should be GO-NO GO to avoid biased local PT programs. Last but not least, PT programs should be reevaluated to determine if it has helped or taken away from the duty day. I would surmise that it has taken away more than it has contributed both in stress to many in the force and in lost man-hours. I personally am motivated enough to do PT on my own.

Just an opinion...

I'm actually in agreement with you. Smeghead said it best, though: "I'm not anti-PT. I'm anti the importance that is placed on it. No one should get an automatic referral EPR for it. The funny thing about this discussion is that I think everyone is in agreement, we just express it differently. We're a video game/fast food/couch potato generation, anything that creates a healthier force is a good thing. Acting as though PT is the only thing that matters is not. "


The USAF I and many of the "old-timers" joined put a premium on technical competency, problem-solving, and intelligence. We had our annual PT test and weigh-ins. People who consistently failed to meet weight standards were demoted and discharged.

Now that we're trying to show that we're really "warriors" - although the VAST majority of the USAF has no right to claim that title - the USAF has simply gone overboard with its focus on PT.

[HawaiianTSgt]

Shrike

Settle down. For you to come back and then search all the related posts is flattering.

All your comments don't sound like you're about moving forward but rather hold things back. Lead from the front buddy.

[Shrike]

Shrike

Settle down. For you to cone back and then search all the related posts is flattering.

All your comments don't sound like you're about moving forward but rather hold things back. Lead from the front buddy.

If I sound like I'm not moving forward, it's for several simple reasons:

- I don't like the direction the USAF has taken since OIF/OEF kicked off.
- I don't like those who seem to want to move the USAF back towards the USA. I've worked with the Army quite a bit, and there's no way in hell I want to belong to them.
- I think the USAF has lost its way in recent years due to the focus on ground operations. This has led senior leadership to undertake a string of embarassingly bad decisions.

As military priorities are cyclical, I truly hope that many of the issues are only temporary, and we can get back on track.

If not, well, I'll just continue to take care of my area of influence to the best of my ability, then retire and let the young ones have their Army Air Corps. It's just a shame they'll probably never realize how friggin' awesome the United States Air Force is when it actually has as its focus the employment of Air Power.

[mfjdspence]

Come on now...you don't like the Reflective Belt generation Air Force? I am absolutely in love with it. ;)

[Shrike]

Come on now...you don't like the Reflective Belt generation Air Force? I am absolutely in love with it. ;)

Ahhhhhh! Don't get me started. There's a whole thread dedicated to that moronic topic, too...

:)

[MACHINE666]

Heh. Shrike. What izzit about this stupid PT topic that just won't die?

You have hit the nail on the head successively with my sentiments, in words that I fail to capture. Are people finally losing their mind over this thing or what?

It must be the full moon tonight or something. There's a really funky vibe going on that I'm picking up.

[AHolmes79]

Last but not least, PT programs should be reevaluated to determine if it has helped or taken away from the duty day. I would surmise that it has taken away more than it has contributed both in stress to many in the force and in lost man-hours. I personally am motivated enough to do PT on my own.

I'm not so sure that's the best argument in the world when it comes to the additional emphasis being placed on this program. You could start the "it takes away from the duties of the day" argument, and spread that into various areas, like roll call, Commander's call, times for training, time needed for certain additional duties, the time needed to attend certain ceremonies, etc.

[mfjdspence]

I am all for dropping that extra garbage too! I mean honestly, how many of us are actually conductin Role Call apart from the safety meeting and the staff meeting to boot? SheeZ!

[mfjdspence]

Honestly, I probably took the wrong angle on that, but it should be evaluate to determine if it has actually contributed anything to the overall fitness of the Air Force. My estimation would be that we are no more fit than we were say back in 2000 before the start of this whole mess. Sure there were different tests in place to determine fitness, but I doubt that the results would show much difference in the bigger picture.

[Seasons]

24yrs old
Pushups: 40's-low 50's
Situps: easy max
Run: 11:40-12:10
Waist: 32-33"
6', 190 +/-5lbs

I was never an endurance runner. I spent 10 years doing sprint-style soccer as a defender catching breakaways. But I could deal with the old PT test. In fact I needed it. When I entered ROTC I could sprint, but the rest? Pffft. Was a wakeup call I needed.

I still can't run well, but in the past year since my last PFT, I've focused on martial arts. So here's hoping on the pushups. I don't care about the run, it means nothing to me. It isn't representative of anything at all, not even endurance. If you run circles enough you'll tunnel-out and lose efficiency. My best run times were on a 1.5mi track designed to prevent repetition, and it WORKED.

And to answer the question of what ROTC is like right now:
Pushups: AF standard
Situps: AF standard
Run: AF standard
Waist: AF standard
Min 70 to pass

And only 2 years ago they had minimums you had to pass on each. But now it don't matter.

[LOAL-D]

Heh. Shrike. What izzit about this stupid PT topic that just won't die?

You have hit the nail on the head successively with my sentiments, in words that I fail to capture. Are people finally losing their mind over this thing or what?

It must be the full moon tonight or something. There's a really funky vibe going on that I'm picking up.

Aaawooow, Full Moon!

Shrike and others make many good points. This PT business has been talked about ad nauseam on these forums. For people who came in recently this silly PT business is taken as a given reality.

For us old timers it is ridiculous. Should there be a fitness/weight standard? Yes, of course. Did we have one before? Yes. Was it working? In my opinion yes.

The Fat boy program , you were given a chance to lose the weight, if not you were shown the door.

There are many people who joined the AF because it was the smartest, most effective branch of service. I chose the Air Force not the Army.

If the AF was doing things right they would study army policies /procedures as an example of what not to do in the AF.

[Seasons]

If the AF was doing things right they would study army policies /procedures as an example of what not to do in the AF.


Agreed completely.

Oh, and since people keep saying we should copy the Marines...my cousin tried to enlist there. He was told, flat out, by the recruiter that he was too smart for the Marines, and would make the rest of his unit uncomfortable.

He went Navy. </punchline>

[LOAL-D]

Agreed completely.

Oh, and since people keep saying we should copy the Marines...my cousin tried to enlist there. He was told, flat out, by the recruiter that he was too smart for the Marines, and would make the rest of his unit uncomfortable.

He went Navy. </punchline>


Ha ha those darn smart people are terrible for esprit de corps…..

[Shrike]

Aaawooow, Full Moon!

Shrike and others make many good points. This PT business has been talked about ad nauseam on these forums. For people who came in recently this silly PT business is taken as a given reality.

For us old timers it is ridiculous. Should there be a fitness/weight standard? Yes, of course. Did we have one before? Yes. Was it working? In my opinion yes.


Exactly!

The very first unit I belonged to, I watched a TSgt become a SSgt, then a Sra and shown the door all in less than a year, and a Buck Sergeant become a SrA, then an A1C and booted. The reason for both of these? The members were overweight and refused to make any appreciable progress towards losing pounds.

The lesson was there for all to see - be an unrepentant fat-ass and you'll get the boot. The system worked. Oh, but wait...we weren't "warriors" back then, so maybe the system didn't work. :rolleyes:

[LOAL-D]

Yeah, You never know when one of the 300,000 plus of us are going to have to drag a buddy from a burning vehicle, apparently happens all the time…..

[CrustySMSgt]

Had a very interesting breakfast this morning with a certain gray-haired fella with lots of shiny stuff on his epaulette. Heard the words straight from his mouth... the plan isn't all the way a done deal... and will (as we know) be annouced at Corona next month.

I can confirm that all the things he mentioned are scattered about in the various posts contained in the 100 or so pages of PT threads... it is just up to you to figure out which ones... lol

[LOAL-D]

Had a very interesting breakfast this morning with a certain gray-haired fella with lots of shiny stuff on his epaulette. Heard the words straight from his mouth... the plan isn't all the way a done deal... and will (as we know) be annouced at Corona next month.

I can confirm that all the things he mentioned are scattered about in the various posts contained in the 100 or so pages of PT threads... it is just up to you to figure out which ones... lol


As long as they don't incorporate the Patented -Crusty-Dress PT uniform;)

[CrustySMSgt]

As long as they don't incorporate the Patented -Crusty-Dress PT uniform;)

5 min after I posted that pic, the thread was deleted. I guess I violate ToS :cool:

[LOAL-D]

5 min after I posted that pic, the thread was deleted. I guess I violate ToS :cool:

I got a feeling it wasn't your post....

[Meable]

After reading all the previous posts, my only question is "What's the big deal?" We're all professionals who are trained to meet standards. If you can't or won't meet them, whatever they are, move on and find somewhere else to work.

As for me personally, I'm a 42 year old SNCO who could barely do 20 pushups and situps and took 19+ minutes to run my mile and a half 5 years ago. The training that was provided to me coupled with my motivation to meet and exceed standards has resulted in a man who can run the mile and a half in 11 mins and exceed the AF max for both pushups and situps in my age group. The work that led to these results has also given me a body weight that maxes out the BMI score.

As far as I'm concerned, the program is working for me as well as many others. I'm not a gym rat, but I know I'm far healthier than I was 5 years ago. Frankly, that makes me pretty happy, and I'm sure my life expectancy has improved.

My last fitness test resulted in a 90+ score. My personal goal is to make the perfect score...with the HAWC testing me, but if my CC decides that I need more work if I only pass by a point or 2, no big deal. I'll put in the extra work and try to meet or exceed the standards set by my commander.

That's what makes us professionals.

[MACHINE666]

*coughtool*

[sweatyAZ]

right, and if the commander tells you to climb Mt. Kilaminjaro to pass a PT test you would? Just because they tell you to do something does not mean its well planned out. Its your responsibility to point out BS when you see it, and the current as well as this next version of the PT is BS.

[Meable]

right, and if the commander tells you to climb Mt. Kilaminjaro to pass a PT test you would? Just because they tell you to do something does not mean its well planned out. Its your responsibility to point out BS when you see it, and the current as well as this next version of the PT is BS.

I guess I would equate the Kilimanjaro climb with a perfect score. Fortunately, I don't have to make a perfect score to pass the test.

Fortunately, we're all allowed to have our own opinions.

My opinion is that if I can run faster, do more pushups and situps, and have a lower body weight because of the AF fitness program, it's not BS.

If you feel that both the current and the potential new programs are BS, by all means, I encourage you to point this out to your commander and other senior leadership. I'm sure your opinions will be adequately weighed, and promptly discarded.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think the program is perfect. But it is scientifically valid and does make us physically better than what we would be without it.

Best of luck to you.

[sweatyAZ]

I guess I would equate the Kilimanjaro climb with a perfect score. Fortunately, I don't have to make a perfect score to pass the test.

Fortunately, we're all allowed to have our own opinions.

My opinion is that if I can run faster, do more pushups and situps, and have a lower body weight because of the AF fitness program, it's not BS.

If you feel that both the current and the potential new programs are BS, by all means, I encourage you to point this out to your commander and other senior leadership. I'm sure your opinions will be adequately weighed, and promptly discarded.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think the program is perfect. But it is scientifically valid and does make us physically better than what we would be without it.

Best of luck to you.

Actually the Medical and Scientific groups we took our standards from have publicly said that we are doing it wrong. e.g. BMI. But if you want to keep your blue blockers on go right ahead. If you havn't noticed senior leadership actually did listen to the fact that the test is messed up (notice I didn't say program in this post or the last, apparently you need clarification) it's being changed. However, the commitee decided to not pay attention to common sense and went out on their own (must be the same board that over saw the uniform changes) Your right about alot of senior leadership disregaurding complaints, they are on the band wagon hoping it takes them to promotion land. Some arn't like that, like my new CC, he actually listens and sends our thoughts upward, what the next level does with it isn't up to him. I hear the next band wagon comming, get ready to catch it.

[Meable]

Actually the Medical and Scientific groups we took our standards from have publicly said that we are doing it wrong. e.g. BMI. But if you want to keep your blue blockers on go right ahead. If you havn't noticed senior leadership actually did listen to the fact that the test is messed up (notice I didn't say program in this post or the last, apparently you need clarification) it's being changed. However, the commitee decided to not pay attention to common sense and went out on their own (must be the same board that over saw the uniform changes) Your right about alot of senior leadership disregaurding complaints, they are on the band wagon hoping it takes them to promotion land. Some arn't like that, like my new CC, he actually listens and sends our thoughts upward, what the next level does with it isn't up to him. I hear the next band wagon comming, get ready to catch it.

OK...I bite. I guess I do need clarification. Post me some links to/from the groups we took our standards from saying we are doing it wrong. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong and I'll admit it.

While you're at it, I'd love to see some valid documentation of the fact that people who can run faster, do more pushups, and more crunches are less fit than others. I only mentioned an improved BMI as a side benefit of the other elements of the current program.

In my OPINION, what leadership has noticed is that many people are not passing the test as it stands when administered by someone outside the unit. In my OPINION, this is because people have been lying about results for quite some time now. Frankly, if you do the exercises required for the test repetitively, I have a hard time believing that you will not improve in each one and be able to easily pass the test, with the run obviously being the hardest to improve upon.

For the record, I never said leadership disregards complaints. I only implied that leadership takes complaints under consideration and discounts those that are unfounded.

If the name of the Band Wagon is "Common Sense", then I'm on it.

[Meable]

For what it's worth, Sweaty logged off at this point. I'll be interested to see what his/her response is. Unfortunately, I'm headed off TDY in a couple hours, so it may be awhile before I see the response.

I'll be fascinated to find links to reputable websites stating that the current and proposed AF Fitness programs are invalid.

We'll see. I'm always up for being educated.

[mfjdspence]

An AFIT study found that it was invalid and a poor assumption of fitness. I believe it actually was a Civil Engineer you completed the study as well. Said that it was only accurate about 20% of the time if I remember correctly. Pretty cool.

[sweatyAZ]

OK...I bite. I guess I do need clarification. Post me some links to/from the groups we took our standards from saying we are doing it wrong. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong and I'll admit it.

While you're at it, I'd love to see some valid documentation of the fact that people who can run faster, do more pushups, and more crunches are less fit than others. I only mentioned an improved BMI as a side benefit of the other elements of the current program.

In my OPINION, what leadership has noticed is that many people are not passing the test as it stands when administered by someone outside the unit. In my OPINION, this is because people have been lying about results for quite some time now. Frankly, if you do the exercises required for the test repetitively, I have a hard time believing that you will not improve in each one and be able to easily pass the test, with the run obviously being the hardest to improve upon.

For the record, I never said leadership disregards complaints. I only implied that leadership takes complaints under consideration and discounts those that are unfounded.

If the name of the Band Wagon is "Common Sense", then I'm on it.

Since you require clarification I'll give it to you. I never said the PROGRAM was messed up, we all need PT, we all know that. Three days a week to get your heart rate up is fine, if you want to push harder do it on your own time, no one is stopping you. What is messed up is the TEST. I don't care about the push/crunch/run portions, the problem is with the waist measurement. It's flawed b/c it believes we all should have 32 inch waists which is geneticly impossible not to mention would breed a bunch of skinny minnies who can't get the job done in a war zone. Feel free to look at the previous post about the study done by the guy in CE and about the Cpt. who did a study and found the AF Test to only be twenty percent effective at proving who is fit enough for combat. Both of those studies are on this websight, and I don't remember which one mentions the failure of the AF to do BMI correctly. The medical foundation that came up with it said something along the lines of the AF didn't take the full formula therefore its results are scewed. Kinda like the big muscular guy is considered morbidly obese by the AF BMI standards, this is common sense to you? Sorry but I don't have the time to go hunt the links down for you, I really don't feel it's worth it anyway. The BMI and waist measurement need to be scrapped period, if you can do the sets of everything else then it shouldn't matter. The only thing that does matter is if you can do your job in a war zone to which I have never seen anyone who couldnt. The PT issue has been blown out of proportion and is not worth this much merit. So if all of the scewed test results are common sense to you then you must be a four star, reigned up to the wagon with the horse blinders on. Bigger problems to deal with these days.

Oh and don't worry about what time I log off, my world doesnt revolve around the computer. More important things to deal with then another forum about PT. It's called priorities, try using some of your so called common sense to figure them out.

[CrustySMSgt]

An AFIT study found that it was invalid and a poor assumption of fitness. I believe it actually was a Civil Engineer you completed the study as well. Said that it was only accurate about 20% of the time if I remember correctly. Pretty cool.

Just to add my 2¢, that study was done by one guy... and he got the results he was looking for as most studies do. The gov't also has their studies...


Since you require clarification I'll give it to you. I never said the PROGRAM was messed up, we all need PT, we all know that. Three days a week to get your heart rate up is fine, if you want to push harder do it on your own time, no one is stopping you. What is messed up is the TEST. I don't care about the push/crunch/run portions, the problem is with the waist measurement. It's flawed b/c it believes we all should have 32 inch waists which is geneticly impossible not to mention would breed a bunch of skinny minnies who can't get the job done in a war zone. Feel free to look at the previous post about the study done by the guy in CE and about the Cpt. who did a study and found the AF Test to only be twenty percent effective at proving who is fit enough for combat. Both of those studies are on this websight, and I don't remember which one mentions the failure of the AF to do BMI correctly. The medical foundation that came up with it said something along the lines of the AF didn't take the full formula therefore its results are scewed. Kinda like the big muscular guy is considered morbidly obese by the AF BMI standards, this is common sense to you? Sorry but I don't have the time to go hunt the links down for you, I really don't feel it's worth it anyway. The BMI and waist measurement need to be scrapped period, if you can do the sets of everything else then it shouldn't matter. The only thing that does matter is if you can do your job in a war zone to which I have never seen anyone who couldnt. The PT issue has been blown out of proportion and is not worth this much merit. So if all of the scewed test results are common sense to you then you must be a four star, reigned up to the wagon with the horse blinders on. Bigger problems to deal with these days.

Oh and don't worry about what time I log off, my world doesnt revolve around the computer. More important things to deal with then another forum about PT. It's called priorities, try using some of your so called common sense to figure them out.

No assessment is gonna measure 300K+ people against the same yardstick and determine fitness. I think we agree on the physical elements giving a basic assessment of general fitness. But speaking of bandwagons, you too are all wrapped around the 32" waist drama to see it for what it is. 32" is the max score... just like 100 is the max score on a test. Not everyone is gonna max it... no more than everyone will max PDG/SKT testing in WAPS... but in both programs your performance in the other elements can offset your score in that element. From what I understand, that bar is either going to be raised to 35", or there will be some other measurement to account for "big boned" folks to still be considered fit. Will that be perfect either? Of course not... but as you said, we've got much more important things to spend time on... so let's come up with an overall assessment that gets as close as it can and press on. Are some folks gonna get screwed... yes. That may suck, but when you look at it from Big Blue's perspective, it makes sense.

[LOAL-D]

I guess they rejected my dizzy beer-bat game suggestion huh? :D

[sweatyAZ]

Just to add my 2¢, that study was done by one guy... and he got the results he was looking for as most studies do. The gov't also has their studies...



No assessment is gonna measure 300K+ people against the same yardstick and determine fitness. I think we agree on the physical elements giving a basic assessment of general fitness. But speaking of bandwagons, you too are all wrapped around the 32" waist drama to see it for what it is. 32" is the max score... just like 100 is the max score on a test. Not everyone is gonna max it... no more than everyone will max PDG/SKT testing in WAPS... but in both programs your performance in the other elements can offset your score in that element. From what I understand, that bar is either going to be raised to 35", or there will be some other measurement to account for "big boned" folks to still be considered fit. Will that be perfect either? Of course not... but as you said, we've got much more important things to spend time on... so let's come up with an overall assessment that gets as close as it can and press on. Are some folks gonna get screwed... yes. That may suck, but when you look at it from Big Blue's perspective, it makes sense.


I'm just saying it should be dumped all together. Let the actual physical performance part of the test determine if someone can function in a warzone. Not the size of their waist, which for the most part won't be to bad if they can accomplish the sit ups and put in a good run time. I'm a 32" guy, but I got alot of friends who like lifting weights and they get screwed. The AF says they are fat due to waist and BMI measurements, I probably have more body fat then they do. What was our morbidly obese percentage again, like 30% or some crazy number like that. The faulty BMI calculations is why that number is so high. I know we have our fat bodies, but I'm willing to bet that more then 15% of the 30% are weight lifters and don't deserve this crap.

But you are absolutely correct, bigger things going on right now. (hey, maybe that should be our new motto) We Have Bigger Things Then You! (something like that)

[CrustySMSgt]

I'm just saying it should be dumped all together. Let the actual physical performance part of the test determine if someone can function in a warzone. Not the size of their waist, which for the most part won't be to bad if they can accomplish the sit ups and put in a good run time. I'm a 32" guy, but I got alot of friends who like lifting weights and they get screwed. The AF says they are fat due to waist and BMI measurements, I probably have more body fat then they do. What was our morbidly obese percentage again, like 30% or some crazy number like that. The faulty BMI calculations is why that number is so high. I know we have our fat bodies, but I'm willing to bet that more then 15% of the 30% are weight lifters and don't deserve this crap.

But you are absolutely correct, bigger things going on right now. (hey, maybe that should be our new motto) We Have Bigger Things Then You! (something like that)

I like the new motto! lol

All you have to do is look around to see that there are FAR more people who's problem AIN'T spending too much time in the gym! I'm all for "if I can do my job, leave me alone" but at some point, military image does have to come into play. Like it or not, this is a key indicator of integrity, adherance to standards, and discipline. Those are all conditions of employment, not options. No one says you (generically speaking) can't have a been gut... you just can't do it in uniform! Choose which is more important and drive on!

[mfjdspence]

I am curious about this military image Crusty. Which military are you talking about would we trying to be emulating? That which we see in the movies? The SOF guys? Perhaps some other nation like the Afghans perhaps? The one thing that I continuosly see while deployed is that there is no military out there that doesn't have a smilar look in terms of body types. I would like someone to come out and say you must look like X and people will be able to get the picture a ton easier.