PT at Retreat...

[BRAVO10000]

So there I was, on the back patio at Ramstein's JR Rockers this past Friday, having a cold beer and catching up with a former boss when retreat sounds. As it happens, the southside fitness center and track happen to be immediately behind the patio in full view.

Obviously, we jump out of our chairs to face the music. I see one guy darting inside the door..."I'll deal with him in a minute", I think, and face forward awaiting the German and US national anthems. But I am catching movement to my left...

So I glance over, and the track is loaded with people that have ALL continued to run. They ran through both anthems. "The sonufabitch inside just caught a break", I thought as the music ended, and I headed towards the track...preceded by my friend, who is a no-nonsense Chief and is reaching for his ID card.

When we get there, what do we find? Yeah, guy with a clipboard. He's doing PT testing.

Now, I don't know the rules on this nor have I looked it up (yet). On one hand, I was infuriated by what I saw was a complete lack of due respect paid to the flag and anthem (ONE guy out of about 50 actualy stopped...he got the Chief's high five). I have no doubts that there were many out there that weren't PT testing and just didn't want to stop...

On the other hand - I have to think that this is the inevitable result of our emphasis on PT. I mean...somebody might have been having his best run of the year and need a good time to stay in for another year...so the greater good seems logical.

Interested in your thoughts? The obvious answer is that PTLs shouldn't score tests during the retreat timeframe; with that said, what would you do?

[sigecaps]

Seems pretty clear cut to me. If they are PT testing they are off the hook. If not, ring them out to dry.

[Smeghead]

The obvious answer is that PTLs shouldn't score tests during the retreat timeframe...

Agree, ideal would be to schedule it at a different time. But if they absolutely have to test at that time then so be it. No different than the aircraft that continue to take off while retreat plays,

I could see this happening in PACAF. With all testing going through the HAWC they're pretty much testing all day long. If they're actively doing their PT test I don't see it as a lack of respect. Now if it's personal PT time, light em up.

[CrustySMSgt]

Retreat is at the same time every day... seems like a no-brainer that there is NO reason to be doing an eval during retreat.

[BRAVO10000]

Retreat is at the same time every day... seems like a no-brainer that there is NO reason to be doing an eval during retreat.

You would think...but at Ramstein, there doesn't seem to be a rhyme or reason. It doesn't run every day...I am told on Fridays only.

In any case - I guess I'll ask for clarification from the CCM and at least let my own unit PTLs know what the ROE is (whatever that turns out to be).

Like I said...what burned me were the non-testers, but how do you tell the difference?

[BRUWIN]

If it were me I'm sure I would have stopped during my PT test regardless. Despite the circumstances, any other action just wouldn't seem right.

You make a good point about emphasis on PT though. It wouldn't surprise me that if one PT problem child stopped and nobody else did they'd probably use it against him claiming it was just an excuse to not run. Yes....IMO it's getting that ridiculous.

I was on our base track when there was a Unit PT run going on a few months back when this one unit about barrelled me over when I was in lane 6 or seven...way to the outside. They were sprinting. When they finished the sprint they started a walk so I passed them having to move to the grass on the outside of the track. Then they sprinted again and I could hear some dickhead yelling "coming up behind...move off to the side!" I was definately getting pissed. It seems unit PT is a license to be a rude bastard now too. And low and behold, later conversation revealed unit PT had priority on the track. Why this unit couldn't split up thier people for the workout so everyone could use the track was beyond me. But like I said, unit PT has become a license to be rude. It's the same when unit's are doing a road run. Don't get stuck behind them because they ain't moving to the sidewalk.

[CrustySMSgt]

I was on our base track when there was a Unit PT run going on a few months back when this one unit about barrelled me over when I was in lane 6 or seven...way to the outside. They were sprinting. When they finished the sprint they started a walk so I passed them having to move to the grass on the outside of the track. Then they sprinted again and I could hear some dickhead yelling "coming up behind...move off to the side!" I was definately getting pissed. It seems unit PT is a license to be a rude bastard now too. And low and behold, later conversation revealed unit PT had priority on the track. Why this unit couldn't split up thier people for the workout so everyone could use the track was beyond me. But like I said, unit PT has become a license to be rude. It's the same when unit's are doing a road run. Don't get stuck behind them because they ain't moving to the sidewalk.

Had the same issues at Travis. Testing had first priority, so if someone was testing (flag posted to indicate testing in progress) then everyone else had to stay out of the lanes (4-lanes inside the track) Was a pain in the ass to enforce... which sucked when testing, because you had to dodge walkers & joggers. Never made any sense... if your just out dicking around, why do you need to take the inside lane? :confused:

[MACHINE666]

Bravo when did we start playing the national anthem on Ramstein? I mean I've heard it a few times and I'm like 'WTF' since we're a multi-nation base. Honestly I stay inside if I know the anthem is about to play....but the only other taboo aside from not rendering proper tribute to the anthem is to tamper with the PT test in any way shape or form.

And J.R. Cock-blockers sucks. I never get lucky there. :(

[BRAVO10000]

Bravo when did we start playing the national anthem on Ramstein? I mean I've heard it a few times and I'm like 'WTF' since we're a multi-nation base. Honestly I stay inside if I know the anthem is about to play....but the only other taboo aside from not rendering proper tribute to the anthem is to tamper with the PT test in any way shape or form.

And J.R. Cock-blockers sucks. I never get lucky there. :(

OK first - shame on you for trying at Rockers. It's an on-base club, always known for plentiful sausage. Go on a Wednesday night if you want real entertainment. But they do have a good draught and it is basically empty for what some would call Happy Hour on Friday afternoons. I like to sit out back, enjoy my suds and laugh at people running PT...it just makes me feel better I guess.

Not sure when we started...but they do play both the German and US anthems. They play the long, slow version of the German anthem too. I think the first time I heard it played here was maybe a month ago.

[BRAVO10000]

If it were me I'm sure I would have stopped during my PT test regardless. Despite the circumstances, any other action just wouldn't seem right.

You make a good point about emphasis on PT though. It wouldn't surprise me that if one PT problem child stopped and nobody else did they'd probably use it against him claiming it was just an excuse to not run. Yes....IMO it's getting that ridiculous.

I was on our base track when there was a Unit PT run going on a few months back when this one unit about barrelled me over when I was in lane 6 or seven...way to the outside. They were sprinting. When they finished the sprint they started a walk so I passed them having to move to the grass on the outside of the track. Then they sprinted again and I could hear some dickhead yelling "coming up behind...move off to the side!" I was definately getting pissed. It seems unit PT is a license to be a rude bastard now too. And low and behold, later conversation revealed unit PT had priority on the track. Why this unit couldn't split up thier people for the workout so everyone could use the track was beyond me. But like I said, unit PT has become a license to be rude. It's the same when unit's are doing a road run. Don't get stuck behind them because they ain't moving to the sidewalk.

Bru, I had the same internal conflict. The easy answer would be "freeze the clock, everyone stop..." but then you do get a short break. Still, it isn't like retreat is played randomly, so a little planning can avoid the issue altogether. I just haven't heard the issue addressed, so I wonder what I would have done if I were on the track and in the middle of a test? I'm sure I would have stopped, and scheduled a retest when it was done. I'm also sure it would have created a bit of controversy.

I hate to think that this reflects our point of view anymore, but I think it does. People doing PT are suddenly more righteous than anyone else, and their time is more important. I remember having the same issue at MacDill in '87 to '89. The Joint Comm Support Element was there attached to CENTCOM, and they did 300-man formation runs right down the middle of the base main drag. They would have traffic backed up for a couple of miles when it was said and done..and they would freak out if you tried to get around them in an empty lane. It was no fun being trapped behind the '80s PT gear shorts (purple at that)...bleh.

Lack of good space to run is becoming an issue too...I still don't know HOW a base the size of Ramstein, with the KMC adjoining facilities, can't manage to produce a single regulation track. Ours is MAYBE 3 lanes wide and it takes 7 laps plus a dog-leg to equal 1.5 miles. I guess we don't have much room to complain...people running PT at places like Lajes would be happy just to have a flat surface to run on.

[Former_1SGT]

Good for you for saying someting! Hell yes people need to stop and pay respect. I hope you got the name of the unit PT'ing so some commander can get an ear full. I get that Ramstein is inconsistent with retreat...but when the music plays...you stop and pay your respect. Test again later when retreat isn't an issue. Not everyone who witnessed what you did is in the military and is spun up on the extra emphasis on PT in today's AF. Definitely a lack of judgement...and I will definitely address at the next KMC Top III meeting. I've seen some F'd up stuff on Ramstein, but I have no stomach for disrespecting retreat!!!

[BENDER56]

Retreat is at the same time every day...

It is if you're somewhere sensible like on an AF installation. I'm on a Navy base and they do retreat at sunset, which obviously varies from day to day. We caught holy hell once (and rightly so) for having a regular PT session during retreat. It was our NPS students and they didn't have enough experience to know what to do so they all kept running. Unfortunately, they were all running on the road in front of the base HQ while the detail was lowering the colors ... while the Navy leadership was all standing on the steps watching. Not good.

I agree that PT tests shouldn't be scheduled during reveille or retreat. How hard would it be for the PTL to call base protocol or the wing HQ to find out if there was going to be a retreat on any particular day?

[Former_1SGT]

If I didn't know Bravo, I would have to question any story starting..."There was this unit doing PT Testing at 1700hrs on a Friday at Ramstein..." :-)

[BRAVO10000]

If I didn't know Bravo, I would have to question any story starting..."There was this unit doing PT Testing at 1700hrs on a Friday at Ramstein..." :-)

:: grins :: I figured they were swing shifters or something. But there's no way that ALL of them were testing. Just one of those things...I didn't want to be the guy that didn't get the memo. Plus - as I was already into my first cold Pils, I was potentially on shaky ground. :D

The thing that got me was that ONE GUY stopped. I would have expected more to follow his lead, honestly, but again - with PT being so closely scrutinized anymore, I'm not that surprised that people kept running. Of course we expect people to follow customs and courtesies and pay respect to the flag...but then some will tell you how rendering that respect won't help you drag your buddy out of harm's way on a convoy. Bleh.

[FLAPS]

If it were me I'm sure I would have stopped during my PT test regardless. Despite the circumstances, any other action just wouldn't seem right.



Stopping a run to stand at attention for the lowering of an inanimate object (flag) is just stupid. I love my country and I am very patriot, but never once believed in paying respect to something incapable (i.e., piece of cloth) of recieving respect. True patriotism is taking action to do positive things for your friends, family, fellow airmen, community, etc. Stopping your fitness (or any other meaningful activity) to stand at attention for a flag does nothing for me or my country.

[Smeghead]

Stopping a run to stand at attention for the lowering of an inanimate object (flag) is just stupid. I love my country and I am very patriot, but never once believed in paying respect to something incapable (i.e., piece of cloth) of recieving respect. True patriotism is taking action to do positive things for your friends, family, fellow airmen, community, etc. Stopping your fitness (or any other meaningful activity) to stand at attention for a flag does nothing for me or my country.

You know you're opening yourself up it for it right? Good luck :)

[AF Chief]

I know here on this base, folks are exempt if they are taking a PT test. Now, that being said, everyone else needs to stop running on the track that is not PT testing. Even if you have head phones on and don't hear the National Anthem, you see everyone else stopped at attention. I have been in that situation and stopped.

[CrustySMSgt]

Stopping a run to stand at attention for the lowering of an inanimate object (flag) is just stupid. I love my country and I am very patriot, but never once believed in paying respect to something incapable (i.e., piece of cloth) of recieving respect. True patriotism is taking action to do positive things for your friends, family, fellow airmen, community, etc. Stopping your fitness (or any other meaningful activity) to stand at attention for a flag does nothing for me or my country.

<walking away from this one shaking my head...>

[CrustySMSgt]

I know here on this base, folks are exempt if they are taking a PT test. Now, that being said, everyone else needs to stop running on the track that is not PT testing. Even if you have head phones on and don't hear the National Anthem, you see everyone else stopped at attention. I have been in that situation and stopped.

At Travis the guidance was, "Don't be a dumb-ass and schedule the run portion of the PT Eval at or near 1700." I might be paraphrasing a bit... lol

[FLAPS]

<walking away from this one shaking my head...>

that's ok...because I'm still the last one out the door everyday after making sure our guys have what they need to get the mission done. :)

[Silver Fox]

Seems pretty clear cut to me. If they are PT testing they are off the hook. If not, ring them out to dry.

This.

Being a PTL is an extra-duty, you gotta work it in when you have the time. I don't blame the guy a bit. It's not disrespect, it's "mission comes first". If you were in combat overseas and let's say you heard the national anthem for some odd reason, I doubt you're going to stop and render courtesy. If you're doing round the clock sorties from Aviano into Bosnia, you're not paying any attention to that shit. You wouldn't stop to salute a general in the first of those situations, and possibly not even the latter.

There's a time and a place for tradition, customs and courtesies.

[CrustySMSgt]

This.

Being a PTL is an extra-duty, you gotta work it in when you have the time. I don't blame the guy a bit. It's not disrespect, it's "mission comes first". If you were in combat overseas and let's say you heard the national anthem for some odd reason, I doubt you're going to stop and render courtesy. If you're doing round the clock sorties from Aviano into Bosnia, you're not paying any attention to that shit. You wouldn't stop to salute a general in the first of those situations, and possibly not even the latter.

There's a time and a place for tradition, customs and courtesies.

Apples & oranges...

Doesn't take a genius to figure out if retreat is played @ 1700, you don't start the running phase of a PT eval after 1645. (or longer if you've got really slow folk or a 3-mile walker) with 2-seconds of pre-planning, it isn't an issue.

If you want to be really ate-up, have your Airman standing on the start line at attention for retreat and at the last note of the music, scream "Play Ball" as his/her signal to start running! :D

[Silver Fox]

Apples & oranges...

Doesn't take a genius to figure out if retreat is played @ 1700, you don't start the running phase of a PT eval after 1645. (or longer if you've got really slow folk or a 3-mile walker) with 2-seconds of pre-planning, it isn't an issue.

If you want to be really ate-up, have your Airman standing on the start line at attention for retreat and at the last note of the music, scream "Play Ball" as his/her signal to start running! :D

Ok, my example was a little extreme, but I still don't see anything wrong with a tired PTL after a full day of work wanting to get a PT Test over with, and forgetting about retreat (ever forget? happens to me...) or having somewhere else to be, etc. A PT Test is still a 'mission essential' function to me, you can't deploy without a current one, I think retreat would be the last thing going through my mind at the time.

Ours are held at 1645 weekly, retreat interrupts everytime, no one stops. I'm not the PTL either for the record, but he gets out of work at 1630, the pt test commences at 1645. If they're not doing a phase of the test, they stop and render courtesy, but if they're doing push ups, sit ups or crunches they keep going. Getting the troops in shape and ensuring they stay in shape should take priority over standing at attention for the national anthem in my mind.

That's just my opinion though, no one's "right" or "wrong", atleast not until some guy comes up with a reg that outlaws pt tests during retreat :D

I don't look at it as disrespectful, and I don't think anyone's doing it out of disrespect.

I'd have ignored the PTL and found the little shit that ducked inside.

[BRUWIN]

B
Lack of good space to run is becoming an issue too...I still don't know HOW a base the size of Ramstein, with the KMC adjoining facilities, can't manage to produce a single regulation track. Ours is MAYBE 3 lanes wide and it takes 7 laps plus a dog-leg to equal 1.5 miles. I guess we don't have much room to complain...people running PT at places like Lajes would be happy just to have a flat surface to run on.


I know...I was stationed at Ramstein and I used that track my last six months there after it was completed. It sure was a mickey mouse track for a Ramstein facility. I used to save myself the buttpain of trying to weave in and out of people on Ramstein's track and I would drive to Vogleway and use thiers...nobody ever used that one.

By the way...how's that Ramstein BX coming? Last time I saw it I was going through Ramstein on my way to Iraq last summer. It looked like there were fully matured pines growing in the untouched dirt piles.

[MACHINE666]

Hey Bravo whatever happened to that homeless guy that normally lives on Ramstein? I dunno his name but I call him "Gandalf" as a joke. Normally he's out and about this time of year but I haven't seen him teetering around base. Do yah think he kicked the bucket finally?

[jason0926]

This situation is BS. In my own opinion, it should not matter what you are doing. If you hear the national anthem you should stop and show respect. Obviously there may be certain circumstances in which this is not possible (SF responding to gate breach during national anthem etc.) But for PT? Come on now. The underlying problem here is that the PTL should not have started the run portion until the national anthem is over. You joined to serve your country so why would you not stop and show courtesy and respect for something that represents our past, beliefs and what we stand for? Another thing that pisses me off is the fact that if this were at an Army post or Marine post, this would NEEEEVEEER happen. There would be some serious problems. Some of us need to get our sh** together and realize why we really put on the uniform

[Shrike]

Hey Bravo whatever happened to that homeless guy that normally lives on Ramstein? I dunno his name but I call him "Gandalf" as a joke. Normally he's out and about this time of year but I haven't seen him teetering around base. Do yah think he kicked the bucket finally?

I haven't seen him around in a long time, either.

As for the retreat - I've been here at Ramstein for a looooong damned time and can't recall ever hearing retreat. I second what Silver Fox said: "I'd have ignored the PTL and found the little shit that ducked inside."

[MACHINE666]

I haven't seen him around in a long time, either.

As for the retreat - I've been here at Ramstein for a looooong damned time and can't recall ever hearing retreat. I second what Silver Fox said: "I'd have ignored the PTL and found the little shit that ducked inside."

The last I saw of him, it was November time frame and I was driving off base to Landstuhl to get some work done on my car. He was walking in the direction of the Ramstein Resthof....perhaps he was going to his final resting place? You know how some animals will do that, right? Although I woulda thought he would choose the Food Court instead....

[Silver Fox]

Some of us need to get our sh** together and realize why we really put on the uniform

I hope it's for more than snapping to attention and saluting during the national anthem.

[technomage1]

I could do without the retreat at the end of the duty day.

Having said that, if a retreat going to happen, no PT testing should be scheduled during that time frame. Period. There is no way that the PTL could not have worked around this. Even for the slowest person, the run takes 20 minutes max.

Every Tuesday and Thursday that I run on base here, I have to stop for retreat. It's a bit annoying (which is why I go off base most of the time), but it would never cross my mind not to stop.

[Silver Fox]

I could do without the retreat at the end of the duty day.

Having said that, if a retreat going to happen, no PT testing should be scheduled during that time frame. Period. There is no way that the PTL could not have worked around this. Even for the slowest person, the run takes 20 minutes max.

Every Tuesday and Thursday that I run on base here, I have to stop for retreat. It's a bit annoying (which is why I go off base most of the time), but it would never cross my mind not to stop.

You can't say that for certain. There are unknowables.

The testee has a mandatory appointment, the testor has a mandatory appointment, the testor didn't think about the time, it's the best time to do it (ex. you work mids, your shift starts at 1800. PT is from 1630 - 1730 or 1600 - 1700...)

[BRAVO10000]

The last I saw of him, it was November time frame and I was driving off base to Landstuhl to get some work done on my car. He was walking in the direction of the Ramstein Resthof....perhaps he was going to his final resting place? You know how some animals will do that, right? Although I woulda thought he would choose the Food Court instead....

My 15 year old tells me that the guy finally kicked. Some of my airmen told me, however, that the latest Wing King had him booted off base....

There were some interesting stories about where he came from and why he aimlessly wandered around the base. Sad really.

Bru - that damn KMCC place STILL isn't open. There's some big investigation underway. They are finally hiring for the Macaroni Grill and should be doing a partial opening soon...we need it, they closed the main barber shop at the BX and that causes a logjam.

[BRAVO10000]

You can't say that for certain. There are unknowables.

The testee has a mandatory appointment, the testor has a mandatory appointment, the testor didn't think about the time, it's the best time to do it (ex. you work mids, your shift starts at 1800. PT is from 1630 - 1730 or 1600 - 1700...)

The testor didn't think about the time. LAME. Retreat takes like 5 minutes when the slow versions are played, and we're talking 2 anthems.

I worked outside for more than half my career, and you bet your ass that Old Glory ALWAYS got hers from me.

[Silver Fox]

The testor didn't think about the time. LAME.

Like I said? Ever forget? Happens to me... maybe he didn't think about retreat playing at five.... I forget about it. All the time. Start walking outside to my car, hear it and think "Oh shit! Retreat!", snap to attention and render customs. It could be an honest mistake...hell the only time I consciously remember retreat playing at five was when I was an A1C at the gate, because we had to step out into traffic and be human road blocks to ensure everyone stopped.... I don't watch the clock enough to say, "Holy shit it's almost five o'clock, retreat's playing", it's not the focus of my day y'know? I've been in the middle of delivering an ass chewing outside only to be interuppted by retreat... talk about awkward. You're reaming someone and suddenly you hear it and so you stop, take care of business, and then you have to try and pick up where you left off and you've lost the momentum you had earlier.... takes the edge off.... which only pisses you off more... because then you feel like you gave a half-ass chewing.




I worked outside for more than half my career, and you bet your ass that Old Glory ALWAYS got hers from me.


Me too, except when I was doing a PT test. :D

[technomage1]

You can't say that for certain. There are unknowables.

The testee has a mandatory appointment, the testor has a mandatory appointment, the testor didn't think about the time, it's the best time to do it (ex. you work mids, your shift starts at 1800. PT is from 1630 - 1730 or 1600 - 1700...)

Yes, I can. You either show up earlier or later, or wait the 5 whole minutes that it takes the anthem to play to start the run. It may inconvience you, but that's just the way it is.

[Silver Fox]

Yes, I can. You either show up earlier or later, or wait the 5 whole minutes that it takes the anthem to play to start the run. It may inconvience you, but that's just the way it is.

And if you just came out of one mandatory appointment and have to be armed up by a certain time, you may have to inconvenience uncle sam for five minutes while you run through his song. I'm not saying make a habit of it, but I think it's an understandable occurence, and have seen it happen. I think it's an outdated practice anyway, it's kind of like saying the pledge everyday or wearing the american flag on your lapel, and putting your hand over your heart as a civillian during the national anthem.... there's the patriotism that ends at little things like that to proclaim your patriotism, and then there's true patriotism.

Now I'll go ahead and throw the cop out into the fray:

Obama doesn't do it, why should we? :D

[MACHINE666]

Chances are your 15 year old's information is accurate - I don't think that Bacon would have the guy banned from base, considering all he did was sleep all day in the Library and keep all his crap in the locker room at the Southside Fitness Center. The guy had to be at least 80 years old....imagine how it would look if word got out....

Heh. That kinda sucks. I wanted to take a photograph of the guy and put it on a blog or something. 'Gandalf' it would say....and then have all the rumors about him beneath his bio.

Heh. The KMCC is a money pit. I'm kinda glad that I won't be around to see that stupid thing finally open up since I am PCSing soon. If you think traffic is bad now....just you wait until that thing opens up. That thing has been poorly planned from the get go from the parking arrangement to the actual amount of lanes for people to drive on when trying to get around the place. 99% of the military might be blind to it but I see it for what it is....good luck with it.

[BRAVO10000]

Stopping a run to stand at attention for the lowering of an inanimate object (flag) is just stupid. I love my country and I am very patriot, but never once believed in paying respect to something incapable (i.e., piece of cloth) of recieving respect. True patriotism is taking action to do positive things for your friends, family, fellow airmen, community, etc. Stopping your fitness (or any other meaningful activity) to stand at attention for a flag does nothing for me or my country.

...soon to be followed by "uniforms are stupid, haircuts are stupid, saluting is stupid, retirement ceremonies are stupid"... so where do you stand on flag burning? Observation of these may be impractical, but I don't see them as useless.

Our flag is a symbolic representation of the country that you claim to love. A lot of good people died defending the ideals that our flag represents. For some, paying due respect is inspiring and motivating. Maybe, in that moment that someone is standing and listening to the anthem with their hand pressed againt their chest/lifted to their brow, they get just a moment to contemplate the meaning fo their service. In that moment, maybe they rediscover that they are a part of something bigger than themselves or their "jobs". Maybe it lifts their spirits, strengthens their resolve and makes them work/fight that much harder. Just my opinion, but I think this is what a "true patriot" feels.

Tell me again how this does nothing for you or your country?

[BRAVO10000]

I think it's an outdated practice anyway, it's kind of like saying the pledge everyday or wearing the american flag on your lapel, and putting your hand over your heart as a civillian during the national anthem.... there's the patriotism that ends at little things like that to proclaim your patriotism, and then there's true patriotism.

Today's sign that the apocalypse is upon us.

An outdated practice? I would love to be a fly on the wall if an A1C decided that referring to you ar "sir" was outdated, finding "dude" more with-the-times.

This, I think, is the inevitable effect of people thattake their freedoms for granted. They don't remember when losing our sovereignty was a real possibility. We are so damned fickle...

[Silver Fox]

...soon to be followed by "uniforms are stupid,

Not in general. But our ABUs and dress blues are. :D


haircuts are stupid,

I think the uberstrict standards are.


saluting is stupid,

Eh, just overdone.


retirement ceremonies are stupid"..

Hell people have been saying all of these forever....


. so where do you stand on flag burning?

My position is thankfully we live in a country where people can express their discontent by burning a symbol of government and the decsions that it is making without fear of being imprisoned or executed, because that's how America should be. Burnt and bullet riddled flags from america's combat zones bring forth the strongest emotions, so hey, I'm all for it. I have nothing against terrorists overseas burning the American flag, it just reminds you how much they hate you.


Observation of these may be impractical, but I don't see them as useless.

Certain hair standards are useful, uniforms a necessity, saluting is tradition... but I think we could do without the classist outlook on officers and enlisted.


Our flag is a symbolic representation of the country that you claim to love. A lot of good people died defending the ideals that our flag represents.

And some died for interests that had nothing to do with that flag because people in power used that flag to camoflauge not-the-best of intentions or intentions that had anything to do with that flag...


For some, paying due respect is inspiring and motivating.
Maybe, in that moment that someone is standing and listening to the anthem with their hand pressed againt their chest/lifted to their brow, they get just a moment to contemplate the meaning fo their service.

For me, that moment is not during the national anthem that honors the flag, but during the playing of taps that honors all the poor bastards that came before me that ate it. Taps to me, is the most sacred of military songs, and I have ALWAYS rendered respect to taps, even if I'm indoors and hear it outside, I stand up and go look out the window. My mind, always, is with the troops that died and not the ideologies that sent them to their graves.


In that moment, maybe they rediscover that they are a part of something bigger than themselves or their "jobs".

When I hear the national anthem I feel like a number, when I hear taps.... I feel like a man.



Maybe it lifts their spirits, strengthens their resolve and makes them work/fight that much harder. Just my opinion, but I think this is what a "true patriot" feels.

I guess I just don't feel that way about that particular song.

[AHolmes79]

Interested in your thoughts? The obvious answer is that PTLs shouldn't score tests during the retreat timeframe; with that said, what would you do?

Let 'em slide, but ask the PTL what's up with his group testing at that time. Possibly elevate it in an attempt to try and avoid it from happening again.

[Shrike]

Chances are your 15 year old's information is accurate - I don't think that Bacon would have the guy banned from base, considering all he did was sleep all day in the Library and keep all his crap in the locker room at the Southside Fitness Center. The guy had to be at least 80 years old....imagine how it would look if word got out....

Heh. That kinda sucks. I wanted to take a photograph of the guy and put it on a blog or something. 'Gandalf' it would say....and then have all the rumors about him beneath his bio.

Heh. The KMCC is a money pit. I'm kinda glad that I won't be around to see that stupid thing finally open up since I am PCSing soon. If you think traffic is bad now....just you wait until that thing opens up. That thing has been poorly planned from the get go from the parking arrangement to the actual amount of lanes for people to drive on when trying to get around the place. 99% of the military might be blind to it but I see it for what it is....good luck with it.

+1...I PCS soon, too, and if the KMCC opens before I leave, I have no plans on going anywhere near it.

[BRAVO10000]

My position is thankfully we live in a country where people can express their discontent by burning a symbol of government and the decsions that it is making without fear of being imprisoned or executed, because that's how America should be.

Certain hair standards are useful, uniforms a necessity, saluting is tradition... but I think we could do without the classist outlook on officers and enlisted.

And some died for interests that had nothing to do with that flag because people in power used that flag to camoflauge not-the-best of intentions or intentions that had anything to do with that flag...

For me, that moment is not during the national anthem that honors the flag, but during the playing of taps that offers all the poor bastards that came before me that ate it. Taps to me, is the most sacred of military songs, and I have ALWAYS rendered respect to taps, even if I'm indoors and hear it outside, I stand up and go look out the window. My mind, always, is with the troops that died and not the ideologies that sent them to their graves.

When I hear the national anthem I feel like a number, when I hear taps.... I feel like a man.

I guess I just don't feel that way about that particular song.

Dude, seriously - Double You Tee Eff! Back to thread hijacking/trolling I see.

My comments were directed at another post, the one that summarily dismissed paying respect to the flag as pointless (paraphrasing). We went from talking about paying respect to the flag vs PT to TAPS all of a sudden? Political reasoning that you disagree with? Who really gives a wet fart in this thread? Try to stay on topic, can you?

My point was that there are certain things that we do that aren't necessarily practical. We do them to pay homage and respect. They are our traditions, and I am concerned that the lack of emphasis on them reflects the apathy that our airmen and citizens feel. If we, as leaders, don't emphasize their importance, our traditions will be lost.

[Silver Fox]

My comments were directed at another post, the one that summarily dismissed paying respect to the flag as pointless (paraphrasing). We went from talking about paying respect to the flag vs PT to TAPS all of a sudden? Political reasoning that you disagree with? Who really gives a wet fart in this thread? Try to stay on topic, can you?

My point was that there are certain things that we do that aren't necessarily practical. We do them to pay homage and respect. They are our traditions, and I am concerned that the lack of emphasis on them reflects the apathy that our airmen and citizens feel. If we, as leaders, don't emphasize their importance, our traditions will be lost.


Actually I wasn't thread hijacking at all, I was just trying to express a point back to you:
Just because you say it's important, doesn't make it so.
You've got to make them feel like it's important.

For an example of how well something goes when people are told it's important just look at the Airman's creed and how much everyone loves that. :D

[MACHINE666]

Listen if I die because I catch a bullet for Uncle Sam, I want everyone to pay their respects to me by having some beer at their fave topless bar. Even if you don't do it consciously, anytime you combine the two together, you will in essence be rendering proper tribute in a way that matters most, and that's the ability to enjoy the very freedom I would indulge in right along if I were there ~!

:D :D :D :D :D

[Silver Fox]

Listen if I die because I catch a bullet for Uncle Sam, I want everyone to pay their respects to me by having some beer at their fave topless bar. Even if you don't do it consciously, anytime you combine the two together, you will in essence be rendering proper tribute in a way that matters most, and that's the ability to enjoy the very freedom I would indulge in right along if I were there ~!

:D :D :D :D :D


Well we better start drinking those now eh Machine? Don't want to get behind after one of us croaks!

[MACHINE666]

Gladly Silver Fox - although right now vodka is my fave poison as of current. Either way no complaints, so long as it's served cold ~ ! :D

[BRAVO10000]

Actually I wasn't thread hijacking at all, I was just trying to express a point back to you:
Just because you say it's important, doesn't make it so.
You've got to make them feel like it's important.

For an example of how well something goes when people are told it's important just look at the Airman's creed and how much everyone loves that. :D

You aren't really comparing the Airman's creed to the National Anthem I hope...

[Silver Fox]

Gladly Silver Fox - although right now vodka is my fave poison as of current. Either way no complaints, so long as it's served cold ~ ! :D

I'm a vodka man myself. Rejka is amazing.


You aren't really comparing the Airman's creed to the National Anthem I hope...

Why not? They're similar. The National Anthem is supposed to be representative of our nation as a whole, the Airman's Creed is supposed to be representative of the Air Force as a whole.... they're different, but the image of both has been tarnished a great deal in the last century and the current one. People just don't feel the same way about these things as they did in say.... 1941.... Symbols and images don't hold the same power they used to without having a personal itnerest. I think society has drifted away from that mentality.

But really, you approach someone that doesn't know the symbolism behind the American flag and you just tell them, "This is important." Or you hand an airman a card with the Airman's creed and order him to memorize it and say "This is important". It's the same thing. To truly believe in the importance of something, they have to be inspired too, and I mean inspired beyond the realm of "do it or I'll rip your ass/give you paperwork" that'll make them do it, but they'll hate doing it everytime. I think that's where we're at as a country really, and especially in our foreign policy.

In world war two, we had a vested interest in winning. That flag represented the American will. The people. Freedom from oppression. An end to facism. If we lost the war, we'd have German or Japanese occupiers.

Today it's not like that. We have no vested interest in winning on a personal level. If we lose in Iraq or Afghanistan, there may be terrorist attacks on us soil in the future, maybe not, but we certainly won't have iraqi or afghan occupiers on every street corner. There's nothing at stake. We're just there, because they told us to be there. That flag represents abu ghraib. It represents water boarding. It represents a false claim of nuclear weapons in iraq. The shadows of vietnam and korea. The 'real politik' behind desert storm and iraqi freedom. The purity of it is gone. We don't spend enough time highlighting the good things that go on, and so there's no positive image to point to anymore. We have a shamefully low number of medal of honor recipients from this conflict. In the eight years we've been fighting, there should be a lot more. Our government is afraid of making heroes, because they're afraid they might be human. You can propagandize a dead man, but a real live hero can screw up, and everyone's so dreadfully afraid of that they'd rather just not have any. And the good things that do happen, are usually done so inefficiently, you question whether or not you actually did a good job in doing it. So it's just this place where you go, and you fight, and you come home, and that's all it is. There's nothing personal in it for you. There's personal emotions involved in being there, no doubt, but they're not connected to symbols like the flag, or the airman's creed, they're just connected to you and the guys you were there with. There's not the 'we're all in this together' attitude, because we're not.

[BRAVO10000]

Symbols and images don't hold the same power they used to without having a personal itnerest. I think society has drifted away from that mentality.

But really, you approach someone that doesn't know the symbolism behind the American flag and you just tell them, "This is important." Or you hand an airman a card with the Airman's creed and order him to memorize it and say "This is important". It's the same thing.

Point taken but it makes mine at the same time. Society HAS drifted away from it. I just hope that it isn't the segment that volunteered to stand in harm's way, at home and abroad, that lose the mentality. The same folks that swore to defend our nation and it's interests...you know, you and I.

[Silver Fox]

Point taken but it makes mine at the same time. Society HAS drifted away from it. I just hope that it isn't the segment that volunteered to stand in harm's way, at home and abroad, that lose the mentality. The same folks that swore to defend our nation and it's interests...you know, you and I.

I remember swearing to, "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic". Doesn't say anything about interests, and certainly not about waterboarding or detainee abuse, which are certainly unconstitutional.

I volunteered to serve for the chance to travel to foreign lands, and I got that, and I found personal reasons to do it and do it well. A big part of it was to not treat the locals and tcns like absolute shit like so many do. That doesn't mean I trusted them 100%, but for me, not losing my humanity and putting a human image on the United States was a personal reason for me to do my job. When I left there, I wanted them to have a favorable opinion on the United States, represented by me, by having to say that despite their personal feelings on us being there, we were not oppressive, we were compassionate, we did our jobs, and we weren't harsh or cruel.... rather than leaving their and them saying, "I should have knifed that freaking a**hole." And in doing so, I felt I fulfilled my obligation to support and defend the constituion of the united states against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

I don't know, I'm not sure we can even define true patriotism anymore.

[Rastaman]

I remember swearing to, "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic". Doesn't say anything about interests, and certainly not about waterboarding or detainee abuse, which are certainly unconstitutional.

I volunteered to serve for the chance to travel to foreign lands, and I got that, and I found personal reasons to do it and do it well. A big part of it was to not treat the locals and tcns like absolute shit like so many do. That doesn't mean I trusted them 100%, but for me, not losing my humanity and putting a human image on the United States was a personal reason for me to do my job. When I left there, I wanted them to have a favorable opinion on the United States, represented by me, by having to say that despite their personal feelings on us being there, we were not oppressive, we were compassionate, we did our jobs, and we weren't harsh or cruel.... rather than leaving their and them saying, "I should have knifed that freaking a**hole."

With all due respect, what does this have to do with someone being unable to stop a PT test for 5 mins to wait for the playing of the national anthem?

[Silver Fox]

Well someone was lecturing on patriotism and respect to the flag to someone, and I felt compelled to respond. Anyway, it's relevent in expressing the view that playing retreat monday - friday at 5 o'clock is a dated practice.

[WILDJOKER5]

Wow, this thread blew up and I think got way off track. I read the 1st page were it evolved in to Machine trying to pick up something from the on base club, to something about water boarding. Anyways, we have a sign at this base that states not to stop doing PT when retreat sounds. I am usually done with PT by 1500 anyways, but still, the rule has been addressed and resolved.

[MACHINE666]

Wow, this thread blew up and I think got way off track. I read the 1st page were it evolved in to Machine trying to pick up something from the on base club, to something about water boarding. Anyways, we have a sign at this base that states not to stop doing PT when retreat sounds. I am usually done with PT by 1500 anyways, but still, the rule has been addressed and resolved.

Let's not forget the homeless problem on Ramstein either ~ ! :D Gandalf!!!!!! Where's Gandalf!?!?!?!?

Heh. I should pose as a homeless person on my days off to see what kinda reaction I'd get. As it stands now I only shower once a week and use soap and deodorant sparingly. I still brush my teeth but only every other day. Vodka kills whatever the toothpaste doesn't! I think I'll be pretty convicing whatchoo think?!?

:D :D :D :D :D :D

[BRAVO10000]

Let's not forget the homeless problem on Ramstein either ~ ! :D Gandalf!!!!!! Where's Gandalf!?!?!?!?

Heh. I should pose as a homeless person on my days off to see what kinda reaction I'd get. As it stands now I only shower once a week and use soap and deodorant sparingly. I still brush my teeth but only every other day. Vodka kills whatever the toothpaste doesn't! I think I'll be pretty convicing whatchoo think?!?

:D :D :D :D :D :D

Only works if you'r a homeless PTL and ignore retreat...

[Combat correspondent]

Personally, I'd stop if retreat played - as I said, that is me --- personally. The policy on my base is to continue. When I was over at Lackland for the NCOA last month, the policy for BMT, Tech. School and all of Lackland was to not stop for retreat if doing PT. They don't want trainees to stop running, etc., stand at attention and keel over as a result.

[technomage1]

And if you just came out of one mandatory appointment and have to be armed up by a certain time, you may have to inconvenience uncle sam for five minutes while you run through his song. I'm not saying make a habit of it, but I think it's an understandable occurence, and have seen it happen. I think it's an outdated practice anyway, it's kind of like saying the pledge everyday or wearing the american flag on your lapel, and putting your hand over your heart as a civillian during the national anthem.... there's the patriotism that ends at little things like that to proclaim your patriotism, and then there's true patriotism.

Now I'll go ahead and throw the cop out into the fray:

Obama doesn't do it, why should we? :D

Every career field is different, but as a supervisor if you are 5 minutes late because you stood for the retreat under those circumstances, I personally would give you a bye. I'd rather you show the proper respect. Now, that won't work if you're an hour late, mind.

What next, are you going to not bother to salute an officer becuase you're in a hurry?

Acceptable excuses for not stopping for retreat are severly limited: medical emergency, fire, enemy attack, that sort of thing. Leaving for work after a mandatory appointment isn't one of them in my book.

I've already said I can do without the retreat. But while we have it, even if I disagree with it, I still have to enforce it and abide by it.

[MACHINE666]

Every career field is different, but as a supervisor if you are 5 minutes late because you stood for the retreat under those circumstances, I personally would give you a bye. I'd rather you show the proper respect. Now, that won't work if you're an hour late, mind.

What next, are you going to not bother to salute an officer becuase you're in a hurry?

Acceptable excuses for not stopping for retreat are severly limited: medical emergency, fire, enemy attack, that sort of thing. Leaving for work after a mandatory appointment isn't one of them in my book.

I've already said I can do without the retreat. But while we have it, even if I disagree with it, I still have to enforce it and abide by it.


What about almost crapping your pants? :D

[technomage1]

What about almost crapping your pants? :D

Come on, your mother didn't teach you to go before you left the house? :D

Seriously, if you were ill that would fall under medical emergency.

[WILDJOKER5]

Come on, your mother didn't teach you to go before you left the house? :D

Seriously, if you were ill that would fall under medical emergency.

And has no one ever tought people going to appointments to show up 15 mins early? There is no reason for people be late due to music sounding. Usually, the music is a good indication that you are already late.

[WILDJOKER5]

Personally, I'd stop if retreat played - as I said, that is me --- personally. The policy on my base is to continue. When I was over at Lackland for the NCOA last month, the policy for BMT, Tech. School and all of Lackland was to not stop for retreat if doing PT. They don't want trainees to stop running, etc., stand at attention and keel over as a result.

I remeber my tech school, we didnt start PT till after retreat. We would take attendance and stand in formation till the music sounded. When it was done, we then started running.

[Combat correspondent]

That is how it should be! You're right.

[FLAPS]

...soon to be followed by "uniforms are stupid, haircuts are stupid, saluting is stupid, retirement ceremonies are stupid"... so where do you stand on flag burning?
Tell me again how this does nothing for you or your country?

No, I like our uniforms (for the most part), haircuts, saluting and retirement ceremonies. Flag burning? I wouldn't do it myself, but I'm glad I live in a country where you can burn the flag...or any flag for that matter.

Standing at attention for retreat? Does nothing for me or my country. I tend to reflect on our country and my patriotism at various times of the day, week, etc., but forcing me to stand for retreat doesn't automatically make me start reflecting on how great our country is...sorry. As for the flag itself, it isn't alive so I'm pretty sure its feelings aren't getting hurt either way. Again, I'm not un-patriotic for not getting teary eye'd when the national anthem is being played, or for being guilty of reflecting on other personal matters while I am standing at attention for retreat.

Bottom line is that not everyone gets emotional over "god, country and apple pie." Doesn't make them any less "patriotic."

[BRAVO10000]

No, I like our uniforms (for the most part), haircuts, saluting and retirement ceremonies. Flag burning? I wouldn't do it myself, but I'm glad I live in a country where you can burn the flag...or any flag for that matter.

Standing at attention for retreat? Does nothing for me or my country. I tend to reflect on our country and my patriotism at various times of the day, week, etc., but forcing me to stand for retreat doesn't automatically make me start reflecting on how great our country is...sorry. As for the flag itself, it isn't alive so I'm pretty sure its feelings aren't getting hurt either way. Again, I'm not un-patriotic for not getting teary eye'd when the national anthem is being played, or for being guilty of reflecting on other personal matters while I am standing at attention for retreat.

Bottom line is that not everyone gets emotional over "god, country and apple pie." Doesn't make them any less "patriotic."

Nice...but you left the parsley in my quote and omitted the meat and potatoes.

That we have to adhere to traditions, customs and courtesies is a given - it isn't even a player in this context. The issue was, simply put, what SHOULD take precedence - PT or paying respect?

If sentiment (or propoganda, however you want to look at it) doesn't do it for you...big deal. It does have significance to others...myself, for example, and I resent that people IN UNIFORM ignore our customs and courtesies because they have a personal aversion to it. But more importantly - If you lead people, they will follow your example; if that example is to discard any custom or courtesy that you see as insignificant, what do you think they will do?

I am not a fan of the Airman's Creed but I do know it, and I don't stand silently when we have to recite in in a group. I am not a fan of all the emphasis on PT, but I take part in my unit's program and put forth the effort.

It seems that the problem a lot of people have here is making anything bigger than themselves.

[eichampt1]

I was at Ramstein from June 00 until June 05 and never once heard retreat. I guess it must have been brought back after I left. It's one of those traditions that everyone has a different opinion about. I consider myself patriotic, but playing retreat every day at the same time tends to lessen it's significance. It's like making veterens day or memorial day a daily event. I know it's a great tradition, but I personally think it would have more value to if it were only weekly or monthly. As far as PT testing goes, whoever scheduled PT testing during retreat wasn't thinking straight.

[FLAPS]

Nice...but you left the parsley in my quote and omitted the meat and potatoes.

That we have to adhere to traditions, customs and courtesies is a given - it isn't even a player in this context. The issue was, simply put, what SHOULD take precedence - PT or paying respect?

If sentiment (or propoganda, however you want to look at it) doesn't do it for you...big deal. It does have significance to others...myself, for example, and I resent that people IN UNIFORM ignore our customs and courtesies because they have a personal aversion to it. But more importantly - If you lead people, they will follow your example; if that example is to discard any custom or courtesy that you see as insignificant, what do you think they will do?

I am not a fan of the Airman's Creed but I do know it, and I don't stand silently when we have to recite in in a group. I am not a fan of all the emphasis on PT, but I take part in my unit's program and put forth the effort.

It seems that the problem a lot of people have here is making anything bigger than themselves.


When in uniform, pt gear, etc I play the game just as well as anyone else. In fact, most people think I'm ate up and would never disregard or bad mouth customs/courtesies/standards, etc. What's nice about this board is that you can express your true opinion without fear of retributiion or bringing disgrace to our great Air Force. In other words, I don't "pick my nose" in public.

[BadBender]

I read the first few pages until it got to water boarding then skipped to the last page. Here’s a thought in regards to stopping a PT test whilst the national anthem is on. Clearly better scheduling is needed; I think we can agree on that. I seem to remember a safety briefing on PT that said when you are done running you need to keep going to cool off, walking or jogging. This helps prevent the muscles from locking up and stops the shock to the heart. Just imagine the strain of running full speed for your test then coming to a swift and abrupt halt and standing still. I’m sure most of us have heard of people dying from such things after a vigorous workout. Not saying it will happen but it does from time to time. A safety factor may need to be considered here, ORM no doubt.
Another idea is PT is a part of our duty, our work. When we are engaged in PT the PTL is considered the work leader is he not? As a member of a work detail when an officer passes by the work leader comes to attention and does the saluting while the work detail keeps working. So in this case I think it might have been more correct for the PTL to salute the anthem provided he had the time before people would finish or he should have done what he did.
Pilots don’t stop planes mid flight at 1700hrs, email servers don’t go down at 1700hrs and those engaged in organized squadron PT should also not stop. As we are constantly told, it is mission essential, is it not? Proper respect is due of course but logic should dictate that.

[AHolmes79]

I read the first few pages until it got to water boarding then skipped to the last page. Here’s a thought in regards to stopping a PT test whilst the national anthem is on. Clearly better scheduling is needed; I think we can agree on that. I seem to remember a safety briefing on PT that said when you are done running you need to keep going to cool off, walking or jogging. This helps prevent the muscles from locking up and stops the shock to the heart. Just imagine the strain of running full speed for your test then coming to a swift and abrupt halt and standing still. I’m sure most of us have heard of people dying from such things after a vigorous workout. Not saying it will happen but it does from time to time. A safety factor may need to be considered here, ORM no doubt.
Another idea is PT is a part of our duty, our work. When we are engaged in PT the PTL is considered the work leader is he not? As a member of a work detail when an officer passes by the work leader comes to attention and does the saluting while the work detail keeps working. So in this case I think it might have been more correct for the PTL to salute the anthem provided he had the time before people would finish or he should have done what he did.
Pilots don’t stop planes mid flight at 1700hrs, email servers don’t go down at 1700hrs and those engaged in organized squadron PT should also not stop. As we are constantly told, it is mission essential, is it not? Proper respect is due of course but logic should dictate that.


I think that's the most logical approach. A gold star for you today.

[MACHINE666]

Come on, your mother didn't teach you to go before you left the house? :D

Seriously, if you were ill that would fall under medical emergency.

True but I've been in situations where that double-greasy plate of nachos I had for lunch at Chili's decides to creep up on me and wreak havoc...normally I can eat that stuff no problem, but if the cook forgets to wash his hands that day, or the Colon Bombs cereal that I had for breakfast decides to kick in, then it makes for an interesting afternoon. Matter of fact my first weekend here at Ramstein I ended up going to the ER on account of some bad fish I had eaten and missed my very first day of work. People thought I was drunk from the weekend, but no....it was food poisoning! :D

[BRAVO10000]

True but I've been in situations where that double-greasy plate of nachos I had for lunch at Chili's decides to creep up on me and wreak havoc...normally I can eat that stuff no problem, but if the cook forgets to wash his hands that day, or the Colon Bombs cereal that I had for breakfast decides to kick in, then it makes for an interesting afternoon. Matter of fact my first weekend here at Ramstein I ended up going to the ER on account of some bad fish I had eaten and missed my very first day of work. People thought I was drunk from the weekend, but no....it was food poisoning! :D

So this was YOU??

http://wafflechunks.com/files/images/crap.jpg

[MACHINE666]

Heh. Nice.

:D :D :D :D :D

-------EDIT----------

Well I found out through a co-worker this morning that the mysterious Gandalf who has been the base resident homeless person was forced to return to the States. I guess our base commander decided that having homless people inhabit Ramstein was lowering our property value and they shipped his ass Space-A back to BWI. Now he's probably inhabiting the local homeless shelter in downtown Baltimore, alternating between the local McDonald's or 7-11 convenience store. I was hoping to get the guy on film before he left but it's too late for that now! :D

Guess that solves that Scooby-Doo Mystery!

[VOLZZZMAN]

Let me change this up...I am at an Army post and we have to stop and slaute during revielle. This is so during PT as well. How does that sound?

[LOAL-D]

I think they should hold PT tests only during revielle/retreat and grade how you stand at attention, hand placement, etc... make it 30% of your score....

[blacksheep1208]

Let me change this up...I am at an Army post and we have to stop and slaute during revielle. This is so during PT as well. How does that sound?

Sounds like you're at an Army post alright. According to Air Force instructions you're supposed to be at parade rest for revielle and then go to attention and salute for the National Anthem or To The Colors.

[eichampt1]

Let me change this up...I am at an Army post and we have to stop and slaute during revielle. This is so during PT as well. How does that sound?

I spent some time at Baumholder and I can't even count how many soldiers I personally witnessed run for cover just before or at the sound of retreat. The big bad Army facade doesn't fly here. You have your bad apples too.

[MACHINE666]

I spent some time at Baumholder and I can't even count how many soldiers I personally witnessed run for cover just before or at the sound of retreat. The big bad Army facade doesn't fly here. You have your bad apples too.

Heh. Eich I drove up to Baumholder one weekend on a whim to see what it was all about and that place looked like a freakin' PRISON CAMP...oh my gawd...I was revolted with the way the Army had set up camp there and how ghetto-fabulous it looked. I feel sorry for the locals there who try to have a normal life like any other German village has, but with the Army Green Stink ruining everything they touch, it's impossible. There should laws against the Army doing that to whatever host nation we're in or something. Ugh.

[eichampt1]

Heh. Eich I drove up to Baumholder one weekend on a whim to see what it was all about and that place looked like a freakin' PRISON CAMP...oh my gawd...I was revolted with the way the Army had set up camp there and how ghetto-fabulous it looked. I feel sorry for the locals there who try to have a normal life like any other German village has, but with the Army Green Stink ruining everything they touch, it's impossible. There should laws against the Army doing that to whatever host nation we're in or something. Ugh.

I can't count how many times I heard of landlords in the KMC who will only rent to AF or civil service...including my landlord in Miesau. Unfortunately the Army has the widest cross section of American society (good and bad) represented in its ranks. Read the KMC blotter or the stars and stripes and you'll see a definite pattern. The Mannheim correctional facility exists for good reason.

[MACHINE666]

I can't count how many times I heard of landlords in the KMC who will only rent to AF or civil service...including my landlord in Miesau. Unfortunately the Army has the widest cross section of American society (good and bad) represented in its ranks. Read the KMC blotter or the stars and stripes and you'll see a definite pattern. The Mannheim correctional facility exists for good reason.

Oh yeah - it's why I avoid going to K-Town to party on a Friday or Saturday night. Them Army people can't hold their liquor and all that PTSD crap they keep locked up when they're sober comes out the moment they start drinking and they don't care who they pick a fight with. Thanks but no thanks. It's worse than being stuck in Korea with them, since they were better contained at the Army camps.

[eichampt1]

Oh yeah - it's why I avoid going to K-Town to party on a Friday or Saturday night. Them Army people can't hold their liquor and all that PTSD crap they keep locked up when they're sober comes out the moment they start drinking and they don't care who they pick a fight with. Thanks but no thanks. It's worse than being stuck in Korea with them, since they were better contained at the Army camps.

I hear you bro. Individually they're alright, but in a group...no thanks. It's pretty funny to watch when they get jacked up by USAF SF on patrol. Kinda takes the wind (and bravado) out of their sails. Base housing on Ramstein wasn't much better either. They should keep them on Vogelweh or Landshtul. I loved the KMC, but all the inter-service rivalry crap got old pretty quick.

[kctg27]

Glad you and the Chief had time to put your beers down at the club (before retreat I might add) and pay respects. Did you pick them back up again when you went to straighten out the troops who were still working on Friday after retreat had sounded?

Folks doing PT should stop and pay respects. Better judgement should be used by PTLs to not schedule PT testing during retreat. Bringing that up to the PTL is the answer. If others were in uniform performing PT, there is likely an SRO or PTL that has some "splaining" to do.

[Master Tanker]

How can you stop evaluating PT during retreat? If you stop things than what's the use of evaluating? I agree with the guy who said 'you can't stop AC taking off during retreat'. Then what?: The pilots & crew getting out and saluting? After all retreat is a somber tradition, not a forced action. We must reamain sane in all our activities. Not like our fanatic enemies....

[BRUWIN]

Glad you and the Chief had time to put your beers down at the club (before retreat I might add) and pay respects. Did you pick them back up again when you went to straighten out the troops who were still working on Friday after retreat had sounded?



Oh here we go....so you're insinuating SNCOs get off earlier than their Airmen? I don't even want to hear that BS. Take a hike Bud....your Airmen work so hard sob stories ain't gonna fly with me.

[LOAL-D]

Oh here we go....so you're insinuating SNCOs get off earlier than their Airmen? I don't even want to hear that BS. Take a hike Bud....your Airmen work so hard sob stories ain't gonna fly with me.


Ha ha ha , hey Bruwin, MSgt came out today now we got some more drinkin' buddies! Meet me at the Oasis at 1400 tomorrow.....:)

[VOLZZZMAN]

Sounds like you're at an Army post alright. According to Air Force instructions you're supposed to be at parade rest for revielle and then go to attention and salute for the National Anthem or To The Colors.

That's just it, they don't play To The Colors or the National Anthem, just revielle...yet we still salute because the Army does.

[AF Chief]

Oh here we go....so you're insinuating SNCOs get off earlier than their Airmen? I don't even want to hear that BS. Take a hike Bud....your Airmen work so hard sob stories ain't gonna fly with me.


Ditto. Useless Post. Let him walk in some SNCOs shoes for a day and see if he still feels that way.

[LOAL-D]

Ditto. Useless Post. Let him walk in some SNCOs shoes for a day and see if he still feels that way.


Chief, that's when reality hits. But the modern airmen are much smarter than we were;)

and I'm buyin for you and Bruwin when we skate out early tomorrow:tongue:

[BRUWIN]

Ha ha ha , hey Bruwin, MSgt came out today now we got some more drinkin' buddies! Meet me at the Oasis at 1400 tomorrow.....:)


I would but I got unit PT at 1500hrs. Ashame I can't be there...there's nothing more satisfying then cutting back early and sitting outside the club drinking beer while jacking up Airmen and NCOS who are on thier 18th straight hour of work. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[LOAL-D]

I would but I got unit PT at 1500hrs. Ashame I can't be there...there's nothing more satisfying then cutting back early and sitting outside the club drinking beer while jacking up Airmen and NCOS who are on thier 18th straight hour of work. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Aaaah, that's what I live for......:)

[Silver Fox]

Ditto. Useless Post. Let him walk in some SNCOs shoes for a day and see if he still feels that way.

Hahaha indeed. Everyone sees it that way until they wake up one day with some stripes on their sleeve getting phone calls when they're supposed to be asleep coming in for work in uniform to explain other people's fuck ups that occured when you weren't even there, to straighten out the messes other people left you, or to deal with the same airman that thinks you never work's emergency leave issues. :D

Or having the Airmen that you know absolutely can't stand you (probably because they have this allergic reaction to labor) but the moment you walk through the door their head is so far up your ass trying to kiss it that you've got to spackle lube on your rear before you get in the car in the morning. I've got one of those currently. He knows his work performance is piss poor, so he's hoping he can make up for it by lap dogging. Why is he doing that? Because he wants to go to midshift where he can avoid those allergic reactions to labor because their load (in his mind) is lighter than the one days. Too bad I like him where people can keep their eyes on him, because he does well when supervised but horribly when left alone, and midshift takes care of most of the administrative issues that day shift is too busy to handle, and his computer and handwriting skills are so atrocious I think I'd have an aneurysm if I got him involved in that. He even goes so far as to argue, "Please sir! If you put me on mids I'll work so hard for you I swear!" To which I can only say, "Airman, you don't work for me now. One day you're going to have to learn that as long as I'm in the military you have to earn your pay and bennies."

Gyah, I tell you, some days I'd like to turn my stripes in for a day and be an A1C with not a care in the world besides punching out of work.

[AHolmes79]

Oh here we go....so you're insinuating SNCOs get off earlier than their Airmen? I don't even want to hear that BS. Take a hike Bud....your Airmen work so hard sob stories ain't gonna fly with me.

To be fair, it depends on the SNCO. Believe it or not, they're not all hard-working saints either.

[BRAVO10000]

Glad you and the Chief had time to put your beers down at the club (before retreat I might add) and pay respects. Did you pick them back up again when you went to straighten out the troops who were still working on Friday after retreat had sounded?

Folks doing PT should stop and pay respects. Better judgement should be used by PTLs to not schedule PT testing during retreat. Bringing that up to the PTL is the answer. If others were in uniform performing PT, there is likely an SRO or PTL that has some "splaining" to do.

Likewise, glad that you took the time to get all the info...fact is, we were meeting after a hot wash from a major joint exercise. My entire organization had just pulled 3 consecutive weeks of 12-hr shifts. I think after 20 x 12s, cutting everyone out at 1500 was a fair call. My bad. :rolleyes:

Those troops that were "still working after 5" were swing shifters. What, you think they would ever PT on their OWN TIME? Your answer is evident in the fact that you equate doing PT to "still working"...

[BRUWIN]

To be fair, it depends on the SNCO. Believe it or not, they're not all hard-working saints either.

Never said they were...just can't stand a young troop that assumes this guy shouldn't have a beer at 5:00pm on a Friday because other Airmen are out doing PT. I've sat in that same seat at Ramstein having a brew watching SWING SHIFTERS doing thier PT. I certainly had no guilt doing it either.

[Joker76]

I"ll remember this next time, try to get my testing started at 1655, get a two minute break at the halfway point...and finish with an awesome score, lol

[pheenix]

Seems pretty clear cut to me. If they are PT testing they are off the hook. If not, ring them out to dry.

Amen! My sentiments exactly