The Usaf Was Sooo Jacked Up Before The Pt Program

[Joker76]

(I hope you detected my sarcasm)
I'm reading all these posts about the new PT Program/new emphasis on PT, ECT....and I got to thinking...hasnt the USAF actually gotten worse since these were implemented...Nukes flying across the country..people failing NSIs...airman playing gameboy while an inspector is standing there...just to name a few....

Why do you think that is? well i've been doing some psychology research on the effects of a "company" or "organization" with Low Morale.

USAF Folks are expected to work a min of 8 hours a day (no offense to you guys who work 12-18hrs)..put up with constant BS rules/regulations, pretend we care, enforce these BS Rules/Regulations, while once again pretending we care (hi AF Chief). Be ready to deploy at a seconds notice. Attend BS Commander Calls that have nothing to do with ANYTHING I give two poops about (while pretending I care)..OH YEAH..AND DO OUR JOB to PERFECTION every second of the day...

And what is our thanks for doing all this you ask??!?!?!?!? We have to go change into ANOTHER uniform..and go PT....then we get home..were tired....family/friends want to hang out and we're freaking tired...we're neglecting wife, gf, bf, friends, family, kids....so now we gotta put up with BS tension at home too.....as if we didnt get enough at work.

So how to people respond to this level of constant and total BS...they slack at work..they slack on standards, THEY SLACK ON EVERYTHING they know will not get them put in jail or immediatley kicked out of the USAF....its a form of rebillion against the "company".

NOW, my question..for your OLD timers (hi AF Chief), aside from having a couple fatties running around...what was so wrong with the USAF prior to all this PT nonsense?

[CrustySMSgt]

Don't like the rules? I hear Macdonald's (http://www.mcdonalds.com/usa/work.html) doesn't do PT.

[takthekak]

(I hope you detected my sarcasm)
I'm reading all these posts about the new PT Program/new emphasis on PT, ECT....and I got to thinking...hasnt the USAF actually gotten worse since these were implemented...Nukes flying across the country..people failing NSIs...airman playing gameboy while an inspector is standing there...just to name a few....

Why do you think that is? well i've been doing some psychology research on the effects of a "company" or "organization" with Low Morale.

USAF Folks are expected to work a min of 8 hours a day (no offense to you guys who work 12-18hrs)..put up with constant BS rules/regulations, pretend we care, enforce these BS Rules/Regulations, while once again pretending we care (hi AF Chief). Be ready to deploy at a seconds notice. Attend BS Commander Calls that have nothing to do with ANYTHING I give two poops about (while pretending I care)..OH YEAH..AND DO OUR JOB to PERFECTION every second of the day...

And what is our thanks for doing all this you ask??!?!?!?!? We have to go change into ANOTHER uniform..and go PT....then we get home..were tired....family/friends want to hang out and we're freaking tired...we're neglecting wife, gf, bf, friends, family, kids....so now we gotta put up with BS tension at home too.....as if we didnt get enough at work.

So how to people respond to this level of constant and total BS...they slack at work..they slack on standards, THEY SLACK ON EVERYTHING they know will not get them put in jail or immediatley kicked out of the USAF....its a form of rebillion against the "company".

NOW, my question..for your OLD timers (hi AF Chief), aside from having a couple fatties running around...what was so wrong with the USAF prior to all this PT nonsense?

Well, I only came in back in 1992, but I do recall something. I had just arrived at my first base and I remember someone driving around and showing me the base. I asked them when we had PT, exoecting to hear some form of program like we had in tech school...I was blown away when I heard "nothing, do whatever you want on your own"...Then the bike test came and people started failing and getting stuck with mandatory step classes at the gym...I remember the "experts" saying it was the best thing going...We still weighed in once a year, usually around Jan/Feb and we had to weign in for TDYs and promotions...Then some commands started some test program about people can be overweight but still fit...Then Gen Jumper said he wanted to run back and they pushed it in quick...I was in a Squadron where we formed up in the gym mon-wed-fri and did a serious workout, with 30 mins of stretching that made you die, then ran...that was a few years ago and was the only legit thing I ever saw for Sq PT...I think overall the AF is just so individual based, that we rebel against anyhting organized...Matters are just made worse when they change rules for PT wear - remember tuck in or else, then the rules said you could do whatever you wanted...People have learned to just bear with change, becuase it will soon change again anyway...I am very proud of the AF, I just wish they would stop changing big programs everytime a new General takes over or a new CMSAF takes over - so they can leave their legacy...Lastly, I believe CMSAF McKinley asked for the PT audit becuase too many people passed...When they change the program and too many people fail, what then?
The AF leadership cannot just leave well enough alone...

[sigecaps]

You know who else doesn't do organized PT? Fortune 500 CEOs. Doctors. Lawyers. Professors. Scientists. Film makers. Engineers. Writers. And many more professions.

I'm not saying that any of these jobs can be achieved without hard work, but I've always found it absurd, disingenuous, and inadvertently hilarious that senior leaders would always try to sell you that if you don't like the military you can go work for a fast food joint. As if your two options in life are military service or Burger King. Negative. The stupid scare tactic isn't based in reality, and using scare tactics to keep a disgruntled member in the armed services serves neither the member nor the military.

[CrustySMSgt]

You know who else doesn't do organized PT? Fortune 500 CEOs. Doctors. Lawyers. Professors. Scientists. Film makers. Engineers. Writers. And many more professions.

I'm not saying that any of these jobs can be achieved without hard work, but I've always found it absurd, disingenuous, and inadvertently hilarious that senior leaders would always try to sell you that if you don't like the military you can go work for a fast food joint. As if your two options in life are military service or Burger King. Negative.

Each profession has it's own conditions of employment. If the lifestyle of your chosen profession doesn't suit you, move on to on that does. Fast food joints are just an easy target for the butt of the joke.

Funny thing is... unless you work for yourself, pretty much anywhere you work, you're gonna be told what to wear, when to work, and what to do. Too many people get outthinking the grass is greener on the other side, only to have serious regrets. (And before you say it... yes, many also are happy they made the choice)

[ART]

Times were much better when we had the major command structure of the 70's and 80's. I joined in 84 and we had a mission and we performed that mission every day and didn't get all caught up in these flavor of the month programs like we do today. Fitness testing consisted of a 1.5 mile run once a year and a weigh in. End of story.

Did you know that in t he mid- late 80's SAC nuke wings were run by (GASP!) O-6's? That's right! Bird Colonels were running the USAF nuclear enterprise at the operational level. Amazing, huh?

In my FMS squadron we had one E-9, and if you ever saw him it was on one of the following occasions:

BTZ board
You happened to see him in the hall at the building
You screwed the pooch...BIG TIME and were getting your ass reamed.

Back then, your shift supervisor was a SSgt, and he had control over 10-12 E-1 thru E-5's. In a shop of 30 people you had on E-7, a couple of E-6's and the rest were E-5 and below.

Your ancillary training consisted of things that were required for your job. CPR, fire extinguisher (you got to put out real fires back then), phase 2 security and that was about it.

We also had buck sergeants.

Since 1990, The Air Force has nit picked and micromanaged itself into a serious hole. It's going to take a guy like LeMay to dig us out so we can get back to focusing ot what's really important, flying sorties.

[fufu]

"If you don't like it, get out".

That is a typical thoughtless, "yes man" response to real issue in todays air force.

I don't think PT has helped the AF one bit. It has done nothing but increase my stress level and workload. If I fail the test, I'm held accountable. Why isn't my commander held accountable for not having a mandatory PT program?

In the end, I don't think the PT program is all bad. What I don't like is how your score has become the determining factor in your worthiness as an Airman.

[Multitasker]

I happen to LOVE PT and I'm mad that I can't do it because of my duty position hours (I work 12's on days) but making people who are in shape and who score 90's + on PT tests do them more than once a year is retarded. Obviously if people are scoring high like that on PT tests then it means they take care of themselves, eat well, or are genetically blessed.

[Joker76]

Don't like the rules? I hear Macdonald's (http://www.mcdonalds.com/usa/work.html) doesn't do PT.

Typical response of the "yes man"..lol

I'm only teasing Crusty..you have to be a yes man..you've been in to long...can't screw up now and lose that AWESOME :rolleyes: half pay retirement plan....

Funny thing is...you'll be working at McDonalds LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG before I will. :tongue:

[CrustySMSgt]

"If you don't like it, get out".

That is a typical thoughtless, "yes man" response to real issue in todays air force.

I don't think PT has helped the AF one bit. It has done nothing but increase my stress level and workload. If I fail the test, I'm held accountable. Why isn't my commander held accountable for not having a mandatory PT program?

In the end, I don't think the PT program is all bad. What I don't like is how your score has become the determining factor in your worthiness as an Airman.

"yes man"

A typical thoughless response when faced with someone who has no time for endless whining and bitching.

I realize this is just a message board... a place to vent and find a sympatheic audience. But if being told how to blouse your pants, when to do PT, what uniform to wear and all the rest, then you need to make a choice, deal with it, or seek a profession that suits you better. Life's too short to be miserable.





I happen to LOVE PT and I'm mad that I can't do it because of my duty position hours (I work 12's on days) but making people who are in shape and who score 90's + on PT tests do them more than once a year is retarded. Obviously if people are scoring high like that on PT tests then it means they take care of themselves, eat well, or are genetically blessed.

[sigecaps]

I realize this is just a message board... a place to vent and find a sympatheic audience. But if being told how to blouse your pants, when to do PT, what uniform to wear and all the rest, then you need to make a choice, deal with it, or seek a profession that suits you better. Life's too short to be miserable.

I strongly concur with your sentiment of people choosing the profession that brings them happiness. I see too many of my disgruntled peers re-upping for the wrong reasons whether it be signing bonuses, retirement, or because its the easy thing to do. I wish everyone would look in the mirror when that time comes and ask themselves if they really want to be in the military, if they are really "self-actualizing" and pursuing their dreams. If the answer is no, do not resign. If your childhood dream was to be a veterinarian do not resign. If you see the military as an obstacle to your happiness do not resign. Life is too short to remain miserable. This is going to be my stump speech at my going away party. I don't know how my leadership is going to take it, lol, but I feel strongly about it.


An American tourist was at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked.

Inside the small boat were several large yellowfin tuna. The tourist complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them.

The Mexican replied, "Only a little while."

The tourist then asked, "Why didn't you stay out longer and catch more fish?"

The Mexican said, "With this I have more than enough to support my family's needs."

The tourist then asked, "But what do you do with the rest of your time?"

The Mexican fisherman said, "I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siesta with my wife, Maria, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine and play guitar with my amigos, I have a full and busy life."

The tourist scoffed, " I can help you. You should spend more time fishing; and with the proceeds, buy a bigger boat: With the proceeds from the bigger boat you could buy several boats. Eventually you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman you would sell directly to the processor; eventually opening your own cannery. You would control the product, processing and distribution. You could leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City, then Los Angeles and eventually New York where you could run your ever-expanding enterprise."

The Mexican fisherman asked, "But, how long will this all take?"

The tourist replied, "15 to 20 years."

"But what then?" asked the Mexican.

The tourist laughed and said, "That's the best part. When the time is right you would sell your company stock to the public and become very rich, you would make millions."

"Millions?...Then what?"

The American said, "Then you would retire. Move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siesta with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos."

[blacksheep1208]

I don't have a problem being told what to do, but there is an issue when the people making the rules appear to come from a different planet. Crazy uniforms that have no business being worn in a desert environment, PT test rules that are changed each time the wind blows. Instead of just reacting, why can't they be proactive when designing this stuff? The whole mentality of that's how it is, shut and color doesn't fix anything either. Hanging around for 20 yrs doesn't make you right, your correct decisions do, not the amount of time you've shown up. It would be nice if PT made you be fit and healthy. Focusing on 3 physical events and expecting those to do the job won't cut it. If you want to prove someones physical fitness give us a physical abilities test. In Massachusetts to join a fire dept you have to do a test the state has devised that proves you're able to do the job physically. We all have different jobs in the Air Force but it'd be a start. If you can make it through a month long CST course with the Army I'd have to say you're fit enough to make it. I'm not saying that our PT test should be a month of wearing IBA and playing Army. Just it should actually reflect what you might be asked to do. If you can run 1.5 miles in 9 minutes and have a 32 inch waist does it prove anything aside from you lucking out with good genetics? Can that guy run 1.5 miles that fast with IBA, a ruck sack, and a full combat load of ammo? Maybe we're just all one big sociological experiment.

[DHarris75]

Times were much better when we had the major command structure of the 70's and 80's. I joined in 84 and we had a mission and we performed that mission every day and didn't get all caught up in these flavor of the month programs like we do today. Fitness testing consisted of a 1.5 mile run once a year and a weigh in. End of story.

Did you know that in t he mid- late 80's SAC nuke wings were run by (GASP!) O-6's? That's right! Bird Colonels were running the USAF nuclear enterprise at the operational level. Amazing, huh?

In my FMS squadron we had one E-9, and if you ever saw him it was on one of the following occasions:

BTZ board
You happened to see him in the hall at the building
You screwed the pooch...BIG TIME and were getting your ass reamed.

Back then, your shift supervisor was a SSgt, and he had control over 10-12 E-1 thru E-5's. In a shop of 30 people you had on E-7, a couple of E-6's and the rest were E-5 and below.

Your ancillary training consisted of things that were required for your job. CPR, fire extinguisher (you got to put out real fires back then), phase 2 security and that was about it.

We also had buck sergeants.

Since 1990, The Air Force has nit picked and micromanaged itself into a serious hole. It's going to take a guy like LeMay to dig us out so we can get back to focusing ot what's really important, flying sorties.

Haha...my pet peeve.

You know WHY you had SSgt for a shift supervisor in charge of 10-12 E-1s thru E-5s? Because your SSgts were seasoned - they were older - they were 28-32 years old with 10-12 years of experience. They were experts in their field, had seen enough to make judgement calls, and knew how to "lead", motivate, and manage.

What has changed - now a 10-12 year enlisted guy with experience is now a TSgt or *gasp* a MSgt. So who are your SSgts? The 22-24 year olds with 4-6 years of experience. Okay, so big deal - it just means that a TSgt now does what a SSgt use to. So that would mean that a MSgt takes care of what a TSgt *use* to. But nope - a TSgt does what a SSgt use to, but a MSgt still does what a MSgt use to. So who takes of care of the *old* TSgt duties? Noone. Because the TSgts act like Staffs (because they are at that age of experience) - so the ole seasoned TSgts are losing ground...as a 15 year TSgt, my replacement isn't a 13 year TSgt - it's an 8 year TSgt. Exact scenerio at my previous base.

Anyway - I've said here over and over...so it's a broken record by now from me. But I really think that has led to our current problems!

[Shrike]

I happen to LOVE PT and I'm mad that I can't do it because of my duty position hours (I work 12's on days) but making people who are in shape and who score 90's + on PT tests do them more than once a year is retarded. Obviously if people are scoring high like that on PT tests then it means they take care of themselves, eat well, or are genetically blessed.

I'm genetically blessed with intelligence. Why should I have to take any written tests such as WAPS or ancillary training tests?

The end result is a foregone conclusion, yet I still have to test.

[Aitrus]

Life is too short to remain miserable. This is going to be my stump speech at my going away party. I don't know how my leadership is going to take it, lol, but I feel strongly about it.

Good story! I'm saving that one. It works well with my "If at first you don't succeed, redefine success." philosophy.

[ART]

Haha...my pet peeve.

You know WHY you had SSgt for a shift supervisor in charge of 10-12 E-1s thru E-5s? Because your SSgts were seasoned - they were older - they were 28-32 years old with 10-12 years of experience. They were experts in their field, had seen enough to make judgement calls, and knew how to "lead", motivate, and manage.

What has changed - now a 10-12 year enlisted guy with experience is now a TSgt or *gasp* a MSgt. So who are your SSgts? The 22-24 year olds with 4-6 years of experience. Okay, so big deal - it just means that a TSgt now does what a SSgt use to. So that would mean that a MSgt takes care of what a TSgt *use* to. But nope - a TSgt does what a SSgt use to, but a MSgt still does what a MSgt use to. So who takes of care of the *old* TSgt duties? Noone. Because the TSgts act like Staffs (because they are at that age of experience) - so the ole seasoned TSgts are losing ground...as a 15 year TSgt, my replacement isn't a 13 year TSgt - it's an 8 year TSgt. Exact scenerio at my previous base.

Anyway - I've said here over and over...so it's a broken record by now from me. But I really think that has led to our current problems!

Keep saying it. Someone upstairs reads these posts and eventually the message will get through!

Did I mention we used to have Buck Sergeants? :D

[WPNS]

Haha...my pet peeve.

You know WHY you had SSgt for a shift supervisor in charge of 10-12 E-1s thru E-5s? Because your SSgts were seasoned - they were older - they were 28-32 years old with 10-12 years of experience. They were experts in their field, had seen enough to make judgement calls, and knew how to "lead", motivate, and manage.

What has changed - now a 10-12 year enlisted guy with experience is now a TSgt or *gasp* a MSgt. So who are your SSgts? The 22-24 year olds with 4-6 years of experience. Okay, so big deal - it just means that a TSgt now does what a SSgt use to. So that would mean that a MSgt takes care of what a TSgt *use* to. But nope - a TSgt does what a SSgt use to, but a MSgt still does what a MSgt use to. So who takes of care of the *old* TSgt duties? Noone. Because the TSgts act like Staffs (because they are at that age of experience) - so the ole seasoned TSgts are losing ground...as a 15 year TSgt, my replacement isn't a 13 year TSgt - it's an 8 year TSgt. Exact scenerio at my previous base.

Anyway - I've said here over and over...so it's a broken record by now from me. But I really think that has led to our current problems!

AMEN!!!!!! But don't forget the fact that some of these "10 year TS-MSgt's" most of them onyl care about their education, fast burning through the ranks, and not really focusing on the real issues (People and Planes, the actual mission) It's going to take DECADES for this to be fixed, there is nothing you or I can do to fix it, it's just like the housing crisis, it was put into motion, it is now ongoing and the ONLY way to fix it is for it to burn itself out!!!!

[eichampt1]

(I hope you detected my sarcasm)
I'm reading all these posts about the new PT Program/new emphasis on PT, ECT....and I got to thinking...hasnt the USAF actually gotten worse since these were implemented...Nukes flying across the country..people failing NSIs...airman playing gameboy while an inspector is standing there...just to name a few....

Why do you think that is? well i've been doing some psychology research on the effects of a "company" or "organization" with Low Morale.

USAF Folks are expected to work a min of 8 hours a day (no offense to you guys who work 12-18hrs)..put up with constant BS rules/regulations, pretend we care, enforce these BS Rules/Regulations, while once again pretending we care (hi AF Chief). Be ready to deploy at a seconds notice. Attend BS Commander Calls that have nothing to do with ANYTHING I give two poops about (while pretending I care)..OH YEAH..AND DO OUR JOB to PERFECTION every second of the day...

And what is our thanks for doing all this you ask??!?!?!?!? We have to go change into ANOTHER uniform..and go PT....then we get home..were tired....family/friends want to hang out and we're freaking tired...we're neglecting wife, gf, bf, friends, family, kids....so now we gotta put up with BS tension at home too.....as if we didnt get enough at work.

So how to people respond to this level of constant and total BS...they slack at work..they slack on standards, THEY SLACK ON EVERYTHING they know will not get them put in jail or immediatley kicked out of the USAF....its a form of rebillion against the "company".

NOW, my question..for your OLD timers (hi AF Chief), aside from having a couple fatties running around...what was so wrong with the USAF prior to all this PT nonsense?

I personally think the PT program has very little, if anything to do with it. The biggest problem is that we are fighting in two wars with about 60-70% of the personnel we had in the late 80's. Throw in the Army ILO taskings since the earlier part of this decade and you have a recipe for disaster. I was stationed at Mt Home from 05-08 and lets just say we were happy when we weren't working 12-hour shifts. It was non-stop deployments, excercises, and inspections. When I finally decided to retire, I was working 80+ hours a week. That's barely enough time to eat, sleep and go back to work. Our excercises were starting on a Monday and continuing well into the next week. That seems to be the tempo over the last 7-10 (at least at fighter bases).

[VFFSSGT]

Not really, if we manage to get through to the right people and get them to understand you cannot replace experience with stripes they might, just might, slow down the promotion rates and set minimum scores.

[BlueDevilRN]

Typical response of the "yes man"..lol

I'm only teasing Crusty..you have to be a yes man..you've been in to long...can't screw up now and lose that AWESOME :rolleyes: half pay retirement plan....

Funny thing is...you'll be working at McDonalds LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG before I will. :tongue:


Having been on the civilian side since 2000 (and am going back in in August, thank God), I'll say this - when you see the crap retirement plans out here, your 1/2 base pay guaranteed cash money is going to look pretty damned sexy. . .

[2T2_1997]

"yes man"

A typical thoughless response when faced with someone who has no time for endless whining and bitching.

I realize this is just a message board... a place to vent and find a sympatheic audience. But if being told how to blouse your pants, when to do PT, what uniform to wear and all the rest, then you need to make a choice, deal with it, or seek a profession that suits you better. Life's too short to be miserable.


Not at you directly Crusty, one of my biggest problems with PT is the whole attitude that it is almost a new revolution and it's aim/goal is just and has the best intentions in mind.

I think ....the no-one higher up would concede this; that it is yet another tool to eliminate people. Some people indeed need eliminated. But we've probably lost good airmen both invol/voluntary directly due to this PT regime.
My biggest concern is our refusal to learn from mistakes. Think back Crusty to the early 90's and think about Ergo. Hindsight we see all the flaws and the ridiculousness of the program. At the time you likely could have found hundreds if not thousands of people wearing the unifrom who would spout ad nauseum the effectiveness of Ergo. I see history repeating itself. PT does not eqaul bad or bad idea. The way they are going about it (the waste on uniform, the broken testing etc..)....looks bad right now. Maybe it'll get better. I'm not for one gonna put my chips on the Hawc.
Implementing boards into the promotion system would be a start. Another one would be to incorporate a pass/fail type of fitness "readiness" into CST (isn't that what we prepare for). Somethin flawed with telling me I need to be fit to be a "warrior". When on one hand I can sleep through CST and still pass, but that damn mile plus 1/2 half is all encompassing.

[germb747]

Anyone else get the idea that not everyone is held to the PT standard? I saw a one star general at the airpor the other day wearing blues. NO WAY in hell could that guy have passed the waist measurement if an ordinary airman was taking the test. Then again, who in their right mind is going to fail the general?

[BRUWIN]

In the end, I don't think the PT program is all bad. What I don't like is how your score has become the determining factor in your worthiness as an Airman.


Ditto. What kills me is that you can still pass but some poeple will use your score as a yardstick to your overall performance. These are the "Lettuce Nibblers" that I have referred to in previous posts. Even though I pass some of these folks on the track while they walking along pointing out fatties, they'll always have a better score than me thanks to their waist size.

When the new CMSAF was interviewed I was kind of let down that he didn't mention his score. I was thinking that if his score was between 75-85 and he had no problem admitting it than some of that stigma would be removed. However, he didn't and the Lettuce Nibblers continue with their search and destroy.

[oih82w8]

Times were much better when we had the major command structure of the 70's and 80's. I joined in 84 and we had a mission and we performed that mission every day and didn't get all caught up in these flavor of the month programs like we do today. Fitness testing consisted of a 1.5 mile run once a year and a weigh in. End of story.

Did you know that in t he mid- late 80's SAC nuke wings were run by (GASP!) O-6's? That's right! Bird Colonels were running the USAF nuclear enterprise at the operational level. Amazing, huh?

In my FMS squadron we had one E-9, and if you ever saw him it was on one of the following occasions:

BTZ board
You happened to see him in the hall at the building
You screwed the pooch...BIG TIME and were getting your ass reamed.

Back then, your shift supervisor was a SSgt, and he had control over 10-12 E-1 thru E-5's. In a shop of 30 people you had on E-7, a couple of E-6's and the rest were E-5 and below.

Your ancillary training consisted of things that were required for your job. CPR, fire extinguisher (you got to put out real fires back then), phase 2 security and that was about it.

We also had buck sergeants.

Since 1990, The Air Force has nit picked and micromanaged itself into a serious hole. It's going to take a guy like LeMay to dig us out so we can get back to focusing ot what's really important, flying sorties.


Sounds ALOT like my old (first) SAC unit back in '87! Those were the days! Back when any supervision outside your work center was actually respected and FEARED! Yep, I completely agree with the annual run and weigh in. And there was a time before your received your next stripe upon promotion, you were to accomplish, and PASS, your PT. If you failed, you were RED-LINED! They don't do that anymore. I even suggested it to my Shirt, who said that it was not feasible, too many people would fail. This is the whole purpose; get your outta shape backside in SHAPE! Some other shape than ROUND (yes, I know round is a shape)! I remember Ergometry (bike test) all too well; I could not pass it to save my life. I could do the run in the required time, but I could not pass the bike test. I was told that I was not breathing correctly. I am still alive and vertical, but can't breathe right - go figure. I hate to run, but it's what is in the program, for at least today. Now at the beginning of the year we are going to be required to run twice a year...great.

Somebody got a big dog to chase me around the track?

I was one of the last Buck Sergeants at Soesterberg Air Base (MAY 91)

[oih82w8]

...That seems to be the tempo over the last 7-10 (at least at fighter bases).

"Fighter pilots make movies. Bomber pilots make HISTORY!" Lt. Jake 'Cool Hand' Grafton, Flight of the Intruder 1991

sorry...could not resist! :rolleyes:

Bomber (B-1B) bases are right up there with you if not more so...

[Silver Fox]

They just want us to look professional as extras in movies like Transformers and Iron Man.

[sweatyAZ]

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="4"][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Sounds ALOT like my old (first) SAC unit back in '87! Those were the days! Back when any supervision outside your work center was actually respected and FEARED! Yep, I completely agree with the annual run and weigh in. And there was a time before your received your next stripe upon promotion, you were to accomplish, and PASS, your PT. If you failed, you were RED-LINED! They don't do that anymore. I even suggested it to my Shirt, who said that it was not feasible, too many people would fail. This is the whole purpose; get your outta shape backside in SHAPE! Some other shape than ROUND (yes, I know round is a shape)! I remember Ergometry (bike test) all too well; I could not pass it to save my life. I could do the run in the required time, but I could not pass the bike test. I was told that I was not breathing correctly. I am still alive and vertical, but can't breathe right - go figure. I hate to run, but it's what is in the program, for at least today. Now at the beginning of the year we are going to be required to run twice a year...great.

Somebody got a big dog to chase me around the track?

I was one of the last Buck Sergeants at Soesterberg Air Base (MAY 91

ummmmm they do that now, it's happened a few times at every base i've been to

[Signal2Noise]

Then again, who in their right mind is going to fail the general?

Me.

I'd fail him if he didn't pass his PT test. Standards are standards, and it doesn't matter what grade you are, if you fail, you failed. Now, what HIS supervisor does with that info is up to him.

I mean, what's the worse thing that could happen to me? Are they going to shave my head and make me fly combat missions again?

[Bummed]

Times were much better when we had the major command structure of the 70's and 80's. I joined in 84 and we had a mission and we performed that mission every day and didn't get all caught up in these flavor of the month programs like we do today. Fitness testing consisted of a 1.5 mile run once a year and a weigh in. End of story.

Did you know that in t he mid- late 80's SAC nuke wings were run by (GASP!) O-6's? That's right! Bird Colonels were running the USAF nuclear enterprise at the operational level. Amazing, huh?

In my FMS squadron we had one E-9, and if you ever saw him it was on one of the following occasions:

BTZ board
You happened to see him in the hall at the building
You screwed the pooch...BIG TIME and were getting your ass reamed.

Back then, your shift supervisor was a SSgt, and he had control over 10-12 E-1 thru E-5's. In a shop of 30 people you had on E-7, a couple of E-6's and the rest were E-5 and below.

Your ancillary training consisted of things that were required for your job. CPR, fire extinguisher (you got to put out real fires back then), phase 2 security and that was about it.

We also had buck sergeants.

Since 1990, The Air Force has nit picked and micromanaged itself into a serious hole. It's going to take a guy like LeMay to dig us out so we can get back to focusing ot what's really important, flying sorties.

You said it!!! Loved working in SAC. Gimme a SAC/MAC/TAC CC or SNCO any day. The draw-down in the early 90s really screwed us up. There were so many changes made during that time that haunt us now that it is pathetic. Few today could do what the same rank did 20 yrs ago.

I'll never forget a SRA bragging about making SSgt the first time with 30s scores (60-something % promotion rate). Doesn't mean much to people who made the rank with a 6% or 8% promotion rate. Forget it if you tested PFE during a re-write unless you had 6-8yrs TIG!

[Gunner007]

Each profession has it's own conditions of employment. If the lifestyle of your chosen profession doesn't suit you, move on to on that does. Fast food joints are just an easy target for the butt of the joke.

Funny thing is... unless you work for yourself, pretty much anywhere you work, you're gonna be told what to wear, when to work, and what to do. Too many people get outthinking the grass is greener on the other side, only to have serious regrets. (And before you say it... yes, many also are happy they made the choice)

I understand a portion of your POV however, i find it a little flawed also. When you stifle someone with a verbal beat down of sorts for pointing out something thats flawed, and the PT system is severely flawed, your basically saying they shouldnt be the innovative thinkers the USAF was built around and should hope to field to this day.

The shut up and color attitude is warranted when time is critical and someones life is on the line and questioning an order or procedure would lead to possible injury or loss of life but in the everyday 1G well lit environment we should accept that people will question things they see as improper ideas and practices. Now the way people voice those questions and concerns should be guided and shaped i agree. The USAF prides itself on finding and employing innovative people with the ability to think on their own, we look to recruit people with higher ASVAB scores, we are looking for technical thinkers.

Just because someone doesnt like the PT system you cant say go flip a burger and be taken seriously. If the same guy was coming to you with a form 1000 to improve a broken or faulty process or procedure for maintaining an airplane would you tell him to pound sand and let him watch as you shred his form 1000? Do you maybe wonder how those warnings, notes, and cautions get figured out and placed in our tech data? Because someone figures out something is wrong and identifies it. You have to understand by now that if people dont see there is a problem with the PT system they are either blind or just drunk on the kool-aid! When a program has so much wrong with it and so many people notice it, its going to get bad PR. Its like the new ABU's. People are constantly bitching about how bad the uniform is, we all know it! So i cant really tell a guy to go to burger king for a job if he doesnt like his employers choice of uniform. Somewhere down the line at some point one of these guys ideas will make it through a uniform board and affect a change and make the ABU's better.

I think the key is, as leaders we shouldnt always give them the verbal smack down for being critical of something. What we should do is caution them that there is a difference between bitching and whining. Whining is moaning about something simply for the sake of it, with no fix or better process in mind with which to make an improvement. Bitching/complaining on the other hand means my guy has identified something is flawed and has a fix in mind, he brings something to the table other than just a negative attitude and empty words.

Challenge whining but encourage innovation!

[Gunner007]

I think the problem is we are more concerned with the quip than the actual work. We have become so sensitive to the feelings of everyone involved that we cant just tell people to do their dang job!

We spend more time worrying about PT shirts, reflective belts, green boots or black boots, what AEF cycle is doing what, ankle length socks vs calf length, brown t-shirts vs black, creating awards for every swinging d*$% so they feel loved and appreciated, rewriting EPR's 10 times, trying to work PT into a duty day thats already 12 hours long, trying to figure out how to do more with less, trying to figure out how to comply with a AFI when you have less equipment some of which is required by said AFI, online CBT's, a finance office with hours that would make a banker green with envy, a medical hobby shop with 10 training days a month...

The problem today isnt that people are less capable, it isnt just the PT test, its a state of mind! The SNCO managers want to enforce the standards across the board (as they should), the problem is the standards have become overwhelming to maintain. ie, our MSgt goes around beating people up for not having their CBT's done, so now we focus on the CBT's which means something else isnt being done, so another MSgt in charge of that comes around and starts beating us up on the other task, so people start trying to do both at once, and end up half assing both jobs or pencil whipping the CBT's or both. THen we get inspected and we dont know the info from the CBT's so we fail and we get beat up by the CC on that so we stop doing everything else and focus on the CBT's so we can pass an inspection, Once we pass the inspection we have another one on something else that has gone unchecked due to the previous issue and we end up in the crapper on that one and its an endless cycle. We cant get our heads above water because we have people who keep adding more and more weight to our feet and expecting us to tread longer... sooner or later there is a drowning and then management is suprised!?!? Really? I mean you cant see it coming?

We need to shit can every single CBT, period dot! No one pays attention to them anyway so why bother with the charade. How about we show we are serious about training that matters? If SABC and M-4 training are so important then how about twice a year the entire base closes down flying operations and takes a week where no one is allowed leave, no one is on some red flag TDY... everyone spends the entire week shooting, getting chem warfare, getting SABC... whatever it is, it gets done during this down time? If all this quip is so important and it matters so much surely we should just stand down all daily operations for one week and make everyone get the training. Then the next week resume operations and everyone is rehacked and done! Now people can focus on the mission at hand.

I think if it were really all that important this wouldnt be that hard to justify.