PT Cheating, whose seen it/experinced it/done it first hand

[Joker76]

With the PT audit well behind us, I'm curious...The audit didnt cover everyone, everybase...who out there has ever experinced any level of this?

A few of the things i've seen/experienced:
PTLs going easier on the pushups (not going all the way down) for SNCO's and Officers
A FAT and I mean FAT SNCO being marked with a much smaller waist measurment
Airman PTLs scoring/timing their supervisors...(illegal..maybe not..should it be...YES)

Now this one actually happened to me...a few assignts ago our section PTL actually called me at home and asked me my PT scores due to not wanting to bust a deadline of having everyone done...when I told this NCO i wasnt sure...and suggested just testing me....lets just say I got an ear full....

Who else...anyone?

[sigecaps]

I really don't see anyone going to the full 90 degree tilt when it comes to push ups.

[Capt Alfredo]

With the PT audit well behind us, I'm curious...The audit didnt cover everyone, everybase...who out there has ever experinced any level of this?

A few of the things i've seen/experienced:
PTLs going easier on the pushups (not going all the way down) for SNCO's and Officers
A FAT and I mean FAT SNCO being marked with a much smaller waist measurment
Airman PTLs scoring/timing their supervisors...(illegal..maybe not..should it be...YES)

Now this one actually happened to me...a few assignts ago our section PTL actually called me at home and asked me my PT scores due to not wanting to bust a deadline of having everyone done...when I told this NCO i wasnt sure...and suggested just testing me....lets just say I got an ear full....

Who else...anyone?

Pretty much the only "cheating" I've seen is on the push-ups and sit-ups. No one does the full 90 back up to starting. Too many half-ass "humping the ground" push ups. Secondly, I don't see many people touch their shoulder blades to the mat/ground on the sit ups. Most people just do the little rocker crunch. I've never seen anyone get any sort of hook-up on the run. For the waist I did have an Airman ask me "what I wanted" for the score and I just told him to measure me the way he was supposed to. If you're not a 32, it doesn't really matter unless you're over 40. I'm sure there are some cases of pulling the tape extra tight, but I've not seen it.

[KT3]

Speaking as a PTL. I done the hook up once. This guy on my flight had to do a mock PT test a week prior to him separating. He ask to add 5 push-ups to his score. Which I did. I also did his run and sit-ups, but didn't cheat with those two. (I wasn't there for the taping so I don't know if he got the hook up for that. He end up passing with an 86% and left the Air Force. I have no regret for that, and I didn't do to anyone else.

(The Squadron was threatening to keep him in if he failed the test, even though it was a mock, till he pass the next one. Had to come in during his leave and everything). He wasn't on a program or anything.

I have some pretty hefty NCOs getting 80s on their tests alot. I had to test a LtCol once. After she failed, the SNCO there took the paper and thank me. She is now a Col at a different assignment.

[sweatyAZ]

Yeah I was in USAFE a few years ago too. The concensis was to make sure everyone passed (with help or not) b/c is you failed you had to take time from work in the AOR to do PT. Our squadron leadership wasn't going to allow that. Our wing king was a bit of a health nut though so I'm gonna guess he didn't know what was going on. After going through that deployment as short handed as we were I'm glad our squadron made that decision, not to mention screw running in formation in a warzone. I had a good friend in the Army loose his eye in Balad jogging around. I came here to Luke with a bunch of other guys from over seas. Turns out PT and Flight Line numbers are bucking against each other to see whats more important around here. Supervision made us all test six weeks after arriving. I passed, but alot of people didn't. Most guys would pass 45 days after the fail but still. They said the commander asked them why they failed and told him "we don't PT over seas, to many more important things to do there" To which he responded "well this is Luke, we have nothing better to do here". Which is true for the most part, but don't tell that to Flight Line supervision. According to them the AOR is just beyond the base perimeter. So we get pulled in various directions here. The PTL's here could of been great SS officers, can't wait to see how the HAWK doushebags are.

[Measure Man]

We had an Airman PTL in our squadron "hook-up" an NCO in his section on the run. He didn't run at all, they just put a score down for him cuz he wasn't feeling well.

Airman casually mentioned it in conversation to another NCO, who was concerned and brought it to me.

Airman got an LOR, removed from PTL duties. NCO got an Art 15. Funny thing is this guy could've passed running backwards probably.

In my mind, cheating on the PT test is pretty much equivalent to cheating on WAPS, what with the referral EPR provision and all.

Oh yeah, we were in USAFE. We did PT there, not sure about that other USAFE base, Sweaty.

[technomage1]

I haven't seen anybody cheating, but I have seen then go to far the other way and cheat the member by not following the AFI. For example, the last time I tested I got told to go all the way down on pushups and I couldn't have someone hold my feet while I did the situps. I didn't think this was iaw the AFI and stated so, but as neither of us had the AFI on us and I needed to test as I was going on leave, I let the issue slide. I did look it up later, and I was right (90 degree angle on the arms for pushups and you are allowed to have your feet held or use a bar). I still passed, but it was a lot harder to do, particularly the situps which are usually easy for me.

I've also witnessed members on the FIP testing for the run in the snow, in high winds, etc (all climate conditions not iaw the AFI), failing, then getting their butts handed to them. I'm not saying that the climate was the sole reason for their failure, but if you are going to put someone's career on the line it isn't right to ignore the AFI and test them in 25 MPH winds or with snow pelting down.

I've also only had 1 commander that allowed us to use duty time for PT, every other one has made us report early for it, contrary to the AFI.

I'm sure cheating does happen, I'm not saying it doesn't, but if you hold people to an AFI you also need to hold testers and commanders to it. It goes both ways.

[Shrike]

Saw a quite large SNCO who was the commander's pet get a failing score on a Tuesday from the PTL. SNCO came in that weekend to be personally measured by the commander. Lo and behold, the SNCO managed to drop five inches off of his waist from Tuesday to Saturday.

[LOAL-D]

Saw a quite large SNCO who was the commander's pet get a failing score on a Tuesday from the PTL. SNCO came in that weekend to be personally measured by the commander. Lo and behold, the SNCO managed to drop five inches off of his waist from Tuesday to Saturday.

Nice, RHIP and screw you peon underlings, haha

[fufu]

Two years ago, I did my PT test. My run/pu/su where counted correctly. The PTL measures my waist and writes down 34". I saw it and said, "dude, you can't write that down. There is no way anybody is going to believe that." I measured that morning at 38". He wrote down 36 for my official measurement. Big deal, it made about 1/2 a pt in my total score(I passed by more than 1/2 a pt).

[Shrike]

Sounds like the IG needs to do the next taping of that lardball while the CC watches in handcuffs... why not make it happen, man? Just make the complaint anonymously.

I've put my career on the line twice just at my current base to fight injustice in the PT program. It sucks, but somebody has to keep people honest/fair.

It was run up the chain, but the original scoresheet had been turned in to the commander. So it was basically the commander and SNCO's word against the PTL.

[technomage1]

It was run up the chain, but the original scoresheet had been turned in to the commander. So it was basically the commander and SNCO's word against the PTL.

There was no neutral third party to that could tape this person?

A claim like this should be easy to verify or prove incorrect.

[Shrike]

There was no neutral third party to that could tape this person?
The organization didn't care - the commander taped him, and as a commander his integrity is beyond reproach. The SNCO was the golden boy of the organization; his integrity was beyond reproach also. If these two embodiments of our Core Values state that the waist measurement was what they say it was, who were we to cast aspersions at them? Obviously we were just a bunch of malcontents resentful of a successful SNCO.
:rolleyes:



That was one of the most screwed up organizations I've ever had the misfortune of being associated with, and I'm glad that association is over.

[???]

It happened at my last assignment all the time. Shortly after I PCSed there I had to get tested. It was the first test I had to take after my daughter was born so I was in pretty bad shape when it came time to measure me. While I was at a training class the PTL called my cell to let me know that I had to test and started asking me if I was practicing and what my "practice" scores were. I get back two weeks later after the course and there is a pre-dated score sheet on my desk for me to sign with my "practice" scores. Since I worked for the Sq CC I brought it to the Sq's superintendant and told him I didn't feel comfortable signing the paper. The Super asked me if I went out and tested right now would I score what was on the sheet. I told him I would probably do better since I would be under pressure. And he told me (and I quote) "You probably aren't aware of how a fighter sq works, negative just don't happen here. We watch out for our people". Of course me being new to the Sq I didn't want to cause problems and make a bad name for myself, plus I was a young SSgt and he was a seasoned SNCO so I didn't push it. I ended up having my husband's PTL "test" me (he couldn't officially test me since it was a different base) and I scored pretty much what was on the paper so I didn't feel as bad signing it. When I turned it in I told the PTL that what he and the rest of the Sq was doing as far as PT scores was unacceptable and that if he ever put me in that position again I would file a formal complaint. Lucky for me I moved to the Group level before my next test was due.

[sweatyAZ]

We had an Airman PTL in our squadron "hook-up" an NCO in his section on the run. He didn't run at all, they just put a score down for him cuz he wasn't feeling well.

Airman casually mentioned it in conversation to another NCO, who was concerned and brought it to me.

Airman got an LOR, removed from PTL duties. NCO got an Art 15. Funny thing is this guy could've passed running backwards probably.

In my mind, cheating on the PT test is pretty much equivalent to cheating on WAPS, what with the referral EPR provision and all.

Oh yeah, we were in USAFE. We did PT there, not sure about that other USAFE base, Sweaty.

Not sure what you do Measure Man, but in USAFE on the flight line that's in constant AOR rotation (Balad, not the Deed) PT is something on the back burner. Granted that was a couple years ago, things may have changed now. Back then from flight chiefs on down the entire program was on paper, not one foot on the track unless you stood out as an instant fail. That was only one guy who tenured out as a SrA, he had more problems then just PT obviously. As far as cheating on PT test is the same as the WAPs I gotta disagree. Passing the PT test does absolutely nothing beneficial for you other then keeping you off a no no list. Passing a WAPs test changes your entire world in a good way. I can see your point with it being a referal on your epr, but i don't think i would take it that seriously. actually i don't because thats just the mentality on the flight line. if you can do your job in combat then there is no problem, nor are we going to further limit our manning by giving up people to deal with over zealous desk riding gym teachers. (thats just in general not directed at you, quoting supervisors mainly) I have never once seen anybody sent home from an AOR for PT related issues, so the entire movement looks more like a spanish inquisition, or 1950's communist hunt to me.

[Measure Man]

Not sure what you do Measure Man, but in USAFE on the flight line that's in constant AOR rotation (Balad, not the Deed) PT is something on the back burner. Granted that was a couple years ago, things may have changed now. Back then from flight chiefs on down the entire program was on paper, not one foot on the track unless you stood out as an instant fail. That was only one guy who tenured out as a SrA, he had more problems then just PT obviously. As far as cheating on PT test is the same as the WAPs I gotta disagree. Passing the PT test does absolutely nothing beneficial for you other then keeping you off a no no list. Passing a WAPs test changes your entire world in a good way. I can see your point with it being a referal on your epr, but i don't think i would take it that seriously. actually i don't because thats just the mentality on the flight line. if you can do your job in combat then there is no problem, nor are we going to further limit our manning by giving up people to deal with over zealous desk riding gym teachers. (thats just in general not directed at you, quoting supervisors mainly) I have never once seen anybody sent home from an AOR for PT related issues, so the entire movement looks more like a spanish inquisition, or 1950's communist hunt to me.

I work in Maintenance.

I will say...we may not have been religious in the 3X per week PT...but wouldn't tolerate test cheating.

PT may not get you promoted...but it sure can keep you from getting promoted. And unlike WAPS testing, failing once, expecially for an E-7, can keep you from EVER making E-8 or E-9

I'm not suggesting sending anyone home from the AOR for PT....we don't send anyone home for WAPS either...not sure what that has to do with it.

I don't agree with the over-emphasis placed on PT...I don't think it should be as important as it is...but with the consequences of a referral EPR and being non-promotable...it ranks up there with WAPS cheating, in my mind. Although, I'm sure if we'd have caught those two cheating on WAPS, they'd probably be discharged.

[Smeghead]

The run at a previous base was inside at a local college. 10 and a bit laps made up the 1.5 miles. A SrA PTL I knew was testing his section chief. After 9 laps she stopped, said she was done and laid into him until he agreed.

[CrustySMSgt]

I work in Maintenance.

I will say...we may not have been religious in the 3X per week PT...but wouldn't tolerate test cheating.

PT may not get you promoted...but it sure can keep you from getting promoted. And unlike WAPS testing, failing once, expecially for an E-7, can keep you from EVER making E-8 or E-9

I'm not suggesting sending anyone home from the AOR for PT....we don't send anyone home for WAPS either...not sure what that has to do with it.

I don't agree with the over-emphasis placed on PT...I don't think it should be as important as it is...but with the consequences of a referral EPR and being non-promotable...it ranks up there with WAPS cheating, in my mind. Although, I'm sure if we'd have caught those two cheating on WAPS, they'd probably be discharged.

That pretty much sums it up... agree or not, the rules are the rules. Pass your buddy because you don't think the program is right and he gets promoted over someone else more deserving, you've failed the system.

You can have personal agendas... but they need to be personal. By advocating cheating you open youself up to all kinds of issues... your troops know you know they are cheating on PT tests and then they show up late for work, show up drunk, sign off a job without doing it, or whatever else, how can you now be on the other side of the line and hold them accountable. You can say all day long that the difference is "the mission" and the other is just a waste of time... but once you compromise your integrity, your troops have something to hold over your head. It's all cool when you're getting along... but try and hammer them for something, and next thing you know they're in the CC, IG, or ADC's office asking why it is OK for you to break the rules, but thay can't.

Have I seen cheating? hmmmm... a waist 42.5" or greater than is an automatic fail... The AF Audit Agency could have spent 5 minutes in any BX food court and come to the same conclusion.

[Silver Fox]

It's so hypocritical, I've seen our squadron hand a guy his ass, and this dude busted hump for six months and lost mad weight. I mean this guy balloned to 275 and in six months dropped to 215 to get an 81 on his next pt test. It's a slap in the face to him that we've got a guy who the same unit and same leaders have let slide and slide for over four years with no improvement, letting him take breathers during push ups, sit ups and the run so he can show alleged improvement.

As for me, never asked for a favor, but I got one once. I have no problems passing a pt test, never have, never will. I was about to deploy (last minute) and needed a pt test that'd be good through deployment (last minute), literally three day notice. I found my PTL and told him I needed a PT Test. He showed up at the dorms with the form (I was a SrA at the time) and gave me the sheet to sign. I looked at it and everything was filled out. He said, 'I just used your last scores +/- a little. With all the fat guys around here I'm not worried about you." So he basically made sure it added up to the same score I got the year before. Seemed reasonable considering my score the next year was only 2 points higher. I've been consistently in the high 80's low 90's my whole career. Plus, with a deployment looming in less than a week, I had other concerns.... apparently he felt the same way. But like I said, I never asked for it.

[CrustySMSgt]

It's so hypocritical, I've seen our squadron hand a guy his ass, and this dude busted hump for six months and lost mad weight. I mean this guy balloned to 275 and in six months dropped to 215 to get an 81 on his next pt test. It's a slap in the face to him that we've got a guy who the same unit and same leaders have let slide and slide for over four years with no improvement, letting him take breathers during push ups, sit ups and the run so he can show alleged improvement.

As for me, never asked for a favor, but I got one once. I have no problems passing a pt test, never have, never will. I was about to deploy (last minute) and needed a pt test that'd be good through deployment (last minute), literally three day notice. I found my PTL and told him I needed a PT Test. He showed up at the dorms with the form (I was a SrA at the time) and gave me the sheet to sign. I looked at it and everything was filled out. He said, 'I just used your last scores +/- a little. With all the fat guys around here I'm not worried about you." So he basically made sure it added up to the same score I got the year before. Seemed reasonable considering my score the next year was only 2 points higher. I've been consistently in the high 80's low 90's my whole career. Plus, with a deployment looming in less than a week, I had other concerns.... apparently he felt the same way. But like I said, I never asked for it.

The first paragraph will partially be fixed by centralized testing... but it is still up to the CC to take action based on not meeting standards. Someone in the chain needs to step up and call BS. The "every case is different" argument can only go so far... if they are hammering one guy and letting another one slide, then it needs to be addressed.

"Never asking for it" is a cop-out... when someone does the right things and calls this guy out for CHEATING and he starts dropping names, telling them, "I did it for so & so, and so & so" you have placed yourself in the middle of the shit storm. A PT eval takes 30 minutes (OK, 2-3 hours in the centralized testing format). My career is worth more than having to spend an afternoon testing.

[mfjdspence]

Have I seen cheating? hmmmm... a waist 42.5" or greater than is an automatic fail... The AF Audit Agency could have spent 5 minutes in any BX food court and come to the same conclusion.

This is where the problem is though. Visceral fat is your stomache fat. If they measure you from your hip bone, which on shorter people is smaller, they can have more visceral fat than say a taller individual. This is exactly why you have short lard butts out there running around laughing and giggleing how they can pass the test and the taller much thinner folks are getting hammered for not meeting standards when they have a waist that is visually not very large, but come out with measurements in the ball park of 37" and 38", while short lard butt gets a 35".

Until the test gets corrected properly, which to a degree it has been, we will continue to see this being a problem.

[Silver Fox]

"Never asking for it" is a cop-out... when someone does the right things and calls this guy out for CHEATING and he starts dropping names, telling them, "I did it for so & so, and so & so" you have placed yourself in the middle of the shit storm. A PT eval takes 30 minutes (OK, 2-3 hours in the centralized testing format). My career is worth more than having to spend an afternoon testing.

Normally you'd be right, but he already did that, after he'd been busted for something else, and he's the only one that got in trouble. They watched PT Testing much more closely, but ultimately, hard to take someone's word for it on that.... all that happens is worst case scenario: They retest you.... and then, you only have to worry if you're a fat ass. I still would have passed... like I said, I'm pretty damn fit. I didn't lose any sleep over it, knowing all the PTLs in our unit were doing the same thing for people that were actually fat....

[air1986]

hmmm after reading this im going to get more bk and watch more tv.

[FLAPS]

I've also only had 1 commander that allowed us to use duty time for PT, every other one has made us report early for it, contrary to the AFI.



Problem is, especially if you're flightline maintenance, is that the CC may not have enough people to support the flying schedule if they are at PT. So, if we have to choose between the mission and PT, mission will always win....rightfully so.

It's true AFI 10-248 states CCs will allow duty time to be used. Most MSG and MDG Sqs can actually afford to have PT take place DURING their 9 hr shifts, but for MXG Sq CCs to meet the intent of the AFI AND support the mission, they are forced to extend the duty day to accomodate PT. It's a sad reality we have to do this, but there aren't other options with current manning levels.

[chipotleboy]

As much as people gripe about the PFT, it is much better than the old bike test. I had severe problems trying to pass that bitch. The only time I did really well was when I returned from a four month TDY at 7,000 ft elevation.

Otherwise, I'd have problems because I have one of those caffeine enhanced nervous personalities. I'd be cruising along on the bike test until the last minute, when I'd get worried about how I was going to do (after failing the last couple of tests), and my heart rate would spike and cause me to fail.

Though I did pass the last few times, thanks to help from good testers ... one was a cute female SrA with a pleasant voice and demeanor who didn't jerk around a lot with the weight settings and other interruptions. The other was an NCO I had worked with before ... I couldn't prove cheating because I couldn't actually see what he was doing, but the resistance on the bike did seem to diminish over time.

As bad as the PFT is, I'd take it any day over the bike ... at least you have a good idea if you're going to pass, and it isn't personality dependent.

[Smeghead]

... a waist 42.5" or greater than is an automatic fail... The AF Audit Agency could have spent 5 minutes in any BX food court and come to the same conclusion.

How about replacing the AC measurement with an ass measurement? And we could contract to make doors on base a certain width, anyone who has trouble getting through the doorway would be a fail. Wouldn't require any special testing time and the process is completely transparent as everyone can see who's fat ass is stuck in a doorway.

[StandardsAMust]

Okay...here's the problem with the current PT test, if assessed correctly, about 20% of the AF would fail it, not just 1-3%.

1. No commander, chief, or first sergeant will fail this test...what PTL in the unit will do this unless it is TOO obvious? For those you think should fail...I bet they are on some sort of medical profile exempting them from the test or most have someone fudge numbers for them and have the UFPM, who works for the commander, input the scores.

2. Having lower ranking PTLs test members in their own workcenter...unless the PTL doesn't like an individual he/she is testing, most likely, all the individuals will pass the test.

3. AC measurements. Just look around at people who should be 45" and odds are, they are OFFICIALLY measured between 37-40", never over 40". When your eyeballs don't match the measurement, you will quickly be referred to the "iliac" crest measuring site, which is always to the member's benefit because it's not the big mass you see poking out of the blouse top. Just wrap that tape around the belly button...that's an easy landmark to nail...but we poke and prod for the "iliac" crest, which can't be found for most members anyway. Can't wrap it around the belly button though, bad fat must not hang out there. Females are also on a smaller waist scale, they can't exceed 35". Look around and you will see many females who look bigger than this, most bigger than 40", but they somehow have a 33" waist...eyes can't distiguish the female measurement anatomy too well...I've been told they are shaped different and the bigger they get, the smaller the fat around their "iliac" crest! I would also hedge a bet that if the AF said 35" was the max waist size for males and 30" for females, you'd see more measurements around this same number with no change in appearance.

4. Accurate Push-ups and Crunches: Go to your local gym right now, watch a PTL administer this portion to anyone and odds are really high that the members performing the pushups are NOT getting to 90 degrees in the elbows nor rising back up to full extension...so most are just recording up and down headbobs...then when they do the crunches, most members can't keep their hands on their chest and let their arms extend up to the thighs...but, they still count them...

5. Which leads me to this part...the scoring system. Look real close at any PT test and you will most likely see this for anyone close to 75....usually has a 37-40" waist, maxes the push-ups and crunches (usually with incorrect form) and then barely makes that run by a few seconds. Guess what...this member is good for another year of bad habits.

6. Cheating: You bet...especially in small units and one on one testing. Don't doubt that for a minute. The second you put careers on the line and have it behind closed doors, people will find a way to pass, especially higher ranking personnel.

7. Accurate tests: The only way to solve the issue is to test members fairly and consistently, which the AF has failed to do since the start...I guess they thought we would have integrity to get this right...well, the AF audit proved otherwise. I applaud the decision to PT test individuals outside the units, after all, this is one small detail that will make a huge difference in everyone's fitness levels...the same small detail that would keep people from passing if PTLs would have just counted the push-ups and crunches correctly from the beginning, eliminating the one or two extra points that got someone over the "75" mark. It will be interesting to see how this goes down for the higher ranking individuals who always "passed" before.

NEW TEST: A quick look at the new test tells me one thing...more people should pass now, especially since the run counts for more points and the waist shrinks...also, since some members won't be able to cheat anymore, you can now expect more profiles than ever before. I don't think much will change for the next two years or so until the MEB process gets so backed up from medical waivers that the AF will have to act again, eliminating the civilian assessers by bringing back the military PTLs....they'll say it was because of costs, but we'll all know the real reason.

[AF Chief]

I will say that as a SMSgt, I had a A1C who measured me did it incorrectly. HE actually told me that he could knock off a couple inches for me. Its not that I needed it, as I passed with current measurements. I told him, "No" I am good with the correct measurement.

[fufu]

I work with two guys that have at least a 40" waist, both having passing scores.:confused:

If they are under 42.5, I'd be very surprised.

[MrMiracle]

4. Accurate Push-ups and Crunches: Go to your local gym right now, watch a PTL administer this portion to anyone and odds are really high that the members performing the pushups are NOT getting to 90 degrees in the elbows nor rising back up to full extension...so most are just recording up and down headbobs...then when they do the crunches, most members can't keep their hands on their chest and let their arms extend up to the thighs...but, they still count them...


I've often felt a little skeptical of the 90 degree standard. Many people have enough flexibility in their shoulders and ribs that they risk touching the mat if they try to fall down to 90 degrees.

What I'd like to see is a little game-show buzzer type of counter that you can put underneath the chest of a person doing push-ups. They go down, hit the button, come back up, and that counts as a push-up. It would take the flexibility out of the standard.

[sweatyAZ]

I work in Maintenance.

I will say...we may not have been religious in the 3X per week PT...but wouldn't tolerate test cheating.

PT may not get you promoted...but it sure can keep you from getting promoted. And unlike WAPS testing, failing once, expecially for an E-7, can keep you from EVER making E-8 or E-9

I'm not suggesting sending anyone home from the AOR for PT....we don't send anyone home for WAPS either...not sure what that has to do with it.

I don't agree with the over-emphasis placed on PT...I don't think it should be as important as it is...but with the consequences of a referral EPR and being non-promotable...it ranks up there with WAPS cheating, in my mind. Although, I'm sure if we'd have caught those two cheating on WAPS, they'd probably be discharged.

when you put it in the light of integrity you are 100% correct and i will concede the point. The AOR comment has to do more with fitness capability to do your job in combat, not PT in general. One of the main reasons behind this PT mob movement is to be combat capable. I have never seen anyone sent home, or not able to do their job in the AOR as far as physicality goes. Thats over two six month deployments inside Iraq at a base called "Mortarritaville". We never had a PT session in three years durring that time. Thats what I was reffering too, sorry for the confusion.

[sweatyAZ]

I've often felt a little skeptical of the 90 degree standard. Many people have enough flexibility in their shoulders and ribs that they risk touching the mat if they try to fall down to 90 degrees.

What I'd like to see is a little game-show buzzer type of counter that you can put underneath the chest of a person doing push-ups. They go down, hit the button, come back up, and that counts as a push-up. It would take the flexibility out of the standard.

Yeah I'm one of those guys. If I go down to a fully 90 degree angle I'm eating grass or getting pubes from the gym floor all over my clothes. I's a pain in the butt. I had one PTL say go full 90, I showed him in the grass, and he said ok just get to the top of the grass. which was still going lower then alot of the guys going 90. I have to point my elbows out too, I can't do the elbows back types. Which sucks because the guys who do it that way seem to do alot more. wouldnt mind an extra point or so, just to be safe. thank good for the run and waiste measurement ;D

[BigT2002]

Lets put it this way.....its almost impossible for someone to keep count of your pushups when you are required to do 62 of them to get 10 points. I actually issued a complaint with the HAWC and the Wings PT Manager because they were giving me PTL's who couldn't keep up with me and therefore thought I wasn't going down to 90 degree. She didn't believe me until I had her try to keep count while I did them and she couldn't.

My "I saw him cheat" story was with a TSgt I worked with who swore up and down he was a 36" waist. I measured a 34" just a few weeks prior and you could probably fit two of me in his uniform it was that big. He got measured the next time we did a mini PT test and a new PTL measured him at a 42" waist. He was so distraught he pulled the heart condition card and went to medical. Got put on a profile for something BS and started popping hydroxycut like it was skittles. Got it down to 38" and he still was screaming and demanding they keep doing it until he was a 36" waist. They eventually gave it to him too

Frankly I would rather have us do pullup/chinups instead of pushups. Demonstrates more upperbody muscles anyways. Women can have the deadhang so they don't have to do them if they so please. Just like in Gym Class!

[NFCstang]

. I have never seen anyone sent home, or not able to do their job in the AOR as far as physicality goes. Thats over two six month deployments inside Iraq at a base called "Mortarritaville". We never had a PT session in three years durring that time. Thats what I was reffering too, sorry for the confusion.

There should have been. There were a few fatties at Balad

[2T2_1997]

No way to justify cheating, no matter how you slice it.

All of these post about how people's waist is over what they get marked on, people not doing correct push-up's and sit up's...OK. Let's say all that is true.

Is there really a definitive corollation to combat and our PT test? You can spout off company lines all day and throw out "fit to fight" and the term "warriors" and then wash down the AF Kool aid.

Seems to me we did pretty well during Desert Storm before this PT program was spun up. That was in the desert.

I aleady know where this will go...and that fitness "of course" will help combat. Well sure it will, but the case for the AF getting this completely wrong has to have some validity. We get so wrapped in the details, consistently...that we lose site of any goal. The AF doesn't want you to be "fit" they want you to pass a test. There is a HUGE difference between the two,

[INGUARD]

With the PT audit well behind us, I'm curious...The audit didnt cover everyone, everybase...who out there has ever experinced any level of this?

A few of the things i've seen/experienced:
PTLs going easier on the pushups (not going all the way down) for SNCO's and Officers
A FAT and I mean FAT SNCO being marked with a much smaller waist measurment
Airman PTLs scoring/timing their supervisors...(illegal..maybe not..should it be...YES)

Now this one actually happened to me...a few assignts ago our section PTL actually called me at home and asked me my PT scores due to not wanting to bust a deadline of having everyone done...when I told this NCO i wasnt sure...and suggested just testing me....lets just say I got an ear full....

Who else...anyone?


same thing in the army especially the National Guard

[2T2_1997]

That pretty much sums it up... agree or not, the rules are the rules. Pass your buddy because you don't think the program is right and he gets promoted over someone else more deserving, you've failed the system.
.

Bet we all are guilty of "cheating" a bit on the EPR. Haven't we all written 5's that weren't what it says in black and white. We all know that if you mark them down, you hurt them towards promotion. Are we cheating or are we adjusting our perceptions to fit in line with the current EPR system?

Hypocritical to bust a guy on not going the full 90degrees on push ups, and sign a 5 EPR when in all honesty and in black and white he is a 4.

[sigecaps]

Bet we all are guilty of "cheating" a bit on the EPR. Haven't we all written 5's that weren't what it says in black and white. We all know that if you mark them down, you hurt them towards promotion. Are we cheating or are we adjusting our perceptions to fit in line with the current EPR system?

Hypocritical to bust a guy on not going the full 90degrees on push ups, and sign a 5 EPR when in all honesty and in black and white he is a 4.

But there is no such thing as a "black and white" 4. Rating someone is a subjective process, there is no hard and fast rule that says to become a 5 you have to do X,Y,Z. It really is up to the supervisor to set those benchmarks.

This is in sharp contrast to PT testing. Whether or not someone goes the full 90 degrees on a push up, is a black and white standard.

[BigT2002]

Still think all the higher ups want is to turn us into Abercrombie models lol. Not about how much you can lift in war but if your abs are showing

[sweatyAZ]

There should have been. There were a few fatties at Balad

we had a couple chubby guys sure, but it didn't prevent them from doing their jobs. As long as the job gets done, we are all alive and going home I don't have a problem with the way someone looks. If they needed help in pulling their own weight thats a different story. However our chubbies were some of our harder workers so I don't think thats the case. I don't really buy into the whole "military appearence" issue as much as others do. I think there is a line but it's pretty far out there for me as far as your body goes. just my opinion.

[NFCstang]

we had a couple chubby guys sure, but it didn't prevent them from doing their jobs. As long as the job gets done, we are all alive and going home I don't have a problem with the way someone looks. If they needed help in pulling their own weight thats a different story. However our chubbies were some of our harder workers so I don't think thats the case. I don't really buy into the whole "military appearence" issue as much as others do. I think there is a line but it's pretty far out there for me as far as your body goes. just my opinion.

I was actually at the DFAC when we had a female SMSgt pass out because she had walked from her trailer to DFAC 2 in IBA when it was about 110F out.

Best part was that it was only about 200yrds from her trailer.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm a big guy (6'3, 280 or so and I play rugby) and I've had a real issue with the PT test. I've always been just around the 40inch mark (+/- 1in depending) and I've really had to step up my run times to make sure I pass. What's depressing is that I used to run the 1.5 between 10:45 and 11:30 12 years ago in ROTC at about 250, but now I'm struggling to get in the mid-high 13s, but I digress.

My issue is that I'll be the first one to toss on my full IBA and ruck and go do 10 miles but as previously mentioned on here, most of the people that get 100 on their PT test can't do that and then I get lumped in with the real fatties who can't wear IBA because they'll pass out.

[technomage1]

Problem is, especially if you're flightline maintenance, is that the CC may not have enough people to support the flying schedule if they are at PT. So, if we have to choose between the mission and PT, mission will always win....rightfully so.

It's true AFI 10-248 states CCs will allow duty time to be used. Most MSG and MDG Sqs can actually afford to have PT take place DURING their 9 hr shifts, but for MXG Sq CCs to meet the intent of the AFI AND support the mission, they are forced to extend the duty day to accomodate PT. It's a sad reality we have to do this, but there aren't other options with current manning levels.

I'm not in MX. And PT is supposed to be a part of our jobs. If they want to treat PT that way in terms of busting the member, then they need to live up to their end of the bargin and give us duty time for it.

[FLAPS]

I'm not in MX. And PT is supposed to be a part of our jobs. If they want to treat PT that way in terms of busting the member, then they need to live up to their end of the bargin and give us duty time for it.

They do give duty time simply by extending the duty day to 12 hours. Do your pt, then show up to roll call.

[BRAVO10000]

I'm not in MX. And PT is supposed to be a part of our jobs. If they want to treat PT that way in terms of busting the member, then they need to live up to their end of the bargin and give us duty time for it.

I know the PT discussion has been worn right out...but I think this points out the part of the PT program that makes me nuts.

AFI 10-248 mandates that CCs give "duty time" for PT. However, there's no gold standard for what "duty time" is. So MX bubbas get the shaft..."Oh, there's no time for PT so we'll just MAKE time by extending the duty day". Of course, the SFS have been getting the same shaft for appointments since the Cold War days (in most places anyway).

One point of view is that PT is just another standard among a long list that we have to maintain. I never had a mandate for duty time to get haircuts, spiffy up my uniform, or even to take classes or kiss babies; I had to do that on my own time. However - most of our other standards didn't require SO MUCH of your time and commitment to maintain (If you skip 3 months of education, you can still pick up where you left off and have no atrophy in capability). I think this is one of the big reasons that PT has traditionally been so secondary in the Air Force.

I am not anti-fitness or even anti-PT. I do question, however, the emphasis placed on PT when we have so many other issues to deal with. From a company man's perspective, I just haven't seen a return on investment from our PT program (minus the garbage that shows up on PowerPoint slides at the Group "my Squadron is better than your Squadron" meetings). I have seen an abrupt loss of ability to get things done on time. You can't "expertly use teams" if said teams are on the track when you're trying to meet a timeline. Something has to give.

I am NOT an advocate of putting the Army's "green stank" on the Air Force, but their PT works because it is a part of their culture across the board. Morning PT formation prior to duty? Check. And leadership at all levels understand that this time is not negotiable or discretionary. Do the soldiers work longer days as a result? You betcha. I wonder how many of them fall out of shape while downrange because they aren't in garrison and falling out for PT...15 months is a long time.

As an aside - It isn't working that well in terms of measuring fitness, which is probably why they are changing it - but that is targeting the types of exercises used to support an evaluation, not the fitness culture. Another piece of that is that, while they have Army-wide minimums for all career fields (60 points per component, 180 of 300 minimum), they have a fitness minimum standard for each career field that makes sense. They can make up points with extra pushups where they might be lacking in situps, but they still have to meet minimum standards in each component. I know that it is idealist in nature, but it at least gives a guy a chance to utilize his strengths/tendencies rather than forcing everyone to be slightly-built or fleet of foot.

[technomage1]

To me, extending the duty day is a cop out. If you hold the member accountable for failures, so should also the chain be held accountable for not following the AFI.

It's no different than, say, requiring a member to come in early to work 3 days a week to work on CBTs. Training is a part of our jobs, and is normally done on duty time. I mean, where does it end?

[Gene]

Good morning Marines,

Yes , just turned 60 ...wow and still working hard at it.
Just completed a 5 mile bike test ride with the new knee.

I have had over 30 operations to include rebuilt right foot,
shoulder scopes, knees, arms and hands.

Served five years in the Marines and twenty three
as a Police/Fire/EMT with an area dept. Continued
on in sales for another 10 years too.

PT is the only way to keep up !

Keep up the great work and don't let them tell you
that you can't.

Happiness is a great BP : 106/68

Semper Fi
Gene
Lt.Ret. 72/95
USMC Sgt. 66/71
Non smoker
Keep Riding!!

[NFCstang]

Another piece of that is that, while they have Army-wide minimums for all career fields (60 points per component, 180 of 300 minimum), they have a fitness minimum standard for each career field that makes sense. They can make up points with extra pushups where they might be lacking in situps, but they still have to meet minimum standards in each component. I know that it is idealist in nature, but it at least gives a guy a chance to utilize his strengths/tendencies rather than forcing everyone to be slightly-built or fleet of foot.

I've been saying that exact same thing since the beginning of this whole mess.

[Smeghead]

Good morning Marines,


Um, who? :confused:

[sweatyAZ]

I was actually at the DFAC when we had a female SMSgt pass out because she had walked from her trailer to DFAC 2 in IBA when it was about 110F out.

Best part was that it was only about 200yrds from her trailer.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm a big guy (6'3, 280 or so and I play rugby) and I've had a real issue with the PT test. I've always been just around the 40inch mark (+/- 1in depending) and I've really had to step up my run times to make sure I pass. What's depressing is that I used to run the 1.5 between 10:45 and 11:30 12 years ago in ROTC at about 250, but now I'm struggling to get in the mid-high 13s, but I digress.

My issue is that I'll be the first one to toss on my full IBA and ruck and go do 10 miles but as previously mentioned on here, most of the people that get 100 on their PT test can't do that and then I get lumped in with the real fatties who can't wear IBA because they'll pass out.

I agree. The test is useless and impotent at pointing out what "combat fitness" means. It blurs the spectrum of who really needs the help and who doesn't. If I were you and the commander told me I was fat I would strip down to my florecent orange thong and flex on his/her desk. As far as the SMS goes, her age might be a factor. Plus if she is not active duty I seriously doubt she spends a whole lot of time on her physical well being. Then again I watched an A1C female pass out after standing at parade rest after three minutes. The system is broken, just got some new duct tape on it, but still broke. I don't think leadership is going to want to hear anything about it for a hile so we are going to be stuck with it. Whatever, I'll do what I have to. I personaly hate PT, but I am mature enough to see it's benefits so I don't bitch about it infront of others, just on here ;D

[Modus]

I've never understood people passing out in formation. I've seen just as many Soldiers as Airmen do it. Now that's embarassing.

[BigNasty82476]

Its called being a huge vagina. Some peope need to harden the fuck up or get out.

[Shrike]

Its called being a huge vagina. Some peope need to harden the fuck up or get out.

Yes, because the sole qualification for being a productive member of the USAF is the ability to stand still.

:rolleyes:

[Shrike]

I've never understood people passing out in formation. I've seen just as many Soldiers as Airmen do it. Now that's embarassing.

Putting aside doing something stupid like not hydrating before being in a formation for a long time, the usual cause I've seen is the person locks their knees. That constricts blood circulation, thus not enough oxygen reaches the brain, thus kerplunk.

[BigNasty82476]

Yes, because the sole qualification for being a productive member of the USAF is the ability to stand still.

:rolleyes:

No its not the sole qualification but a simple task to complete. Give me a break. If you can't stand in formation for 15 mins without passing out I question your ability to function in the military.

[Smeghead]

Putting aside doing something stupid like not hydrating before being in a formation for a long time, the usual cause I've seen is the person locks their knees. That constricts blood circulation, thus not enough oxygen reaches the brain, thus kerplunk.

Or it could be, oh I dunno hypothetically let's say Gen Folkerts is taking command at Moody, the formation has been there about 2 hours before the ceremony. Nobody lets them relax, instead they keep them at parade rest until the COC starts. This is Moody remember ... in August. So the ceremony starts, it's hot as F and when the inbound finally starts his loooooooong speech you just hear "thud," "thud," "thud," it was like dominoes. Shirts were carrying people out left right and center, MDG earned their paycheck that day. Not once did he stop his speech. Stark contrast with two CCs previous, Gen Renuart whose first act was to put the formation at ease and let the folks move around before they hit the tarmac.

[Shrike]

Or it could be, oh I dunno hypothetically let's say Gen Folkerts is taking command at Moody, the formation has been there about 2 hours before the ceremony. Nobody lets them relax, instead they keep them at parade rest until the COC starts. This is Moody remember ... in August. So the ceremony starts, it's hot as F and when the inbound finally starts his loooooooong speech you just hear "thud," "thud," "thud," it was like dominoes. Shirts were carrying people out left right and center, MDG earned their paycheck that day. Not once did he stop his speech. Stark contrast with two CCs previous, Gen Renuart whose first act was to put the formation at ease and let the folks move around before they hit the tarmac.

Correct - I should have added "...and putting aside ignorant presiding officer."

[technomage1]

Or it could be, oh I dunno hypothetically let's say Gen Folkerts is taking command at Moody, the formation has been there about 2 hours before the ceremony. Nobody lets them relax, instead they keep them at parade rest until the COC starts. This is Moody remember ... in August. So the ceremony starts, it's hot as F and when the inbound finally starts his loooooooong speech you just hear "thud," "thud," "thud," it was like dominoes. Shirts were carrying people out left right and center, MDG earned their paycheck that day. Not once did he stop his speech. Stark contrast with two CCs previous, Gen Renuart whose first act was to put the formation at ease and let the folks move around before they hit the tarmac.

Agree - I have never passed out in formation, but this is a perfect set of conditions for it. Sadly, I have seen this more than once.

[eichampt1]

Just look around any base you've ever been on. How many folks did you see who you know would never pass the PT test?

[sweatyAZ]

Just look around any base you've ever been on. How many folks did you see who you know would never pass the PT test?

not anywhere near as many that would pass the test. we all know the bmi stats that the CMSAF used in his study are flawed because they include all the buff guys. the stats say that even those guys are in the "morbidly obese" catagory. don't believe everything you read, take a closer look. sure we have some fatties but so does every other service. this so called "problem" is blown way out of proportion and this whole Charlie Foxtrot is just something else supervision can hang their head in shame in.

[BigNasty82476]

not anywhere near as many that would pass the test. we all know the bmi stats that the CMSAF used in his study are flawed because they include all the buff guys. the stats say that even those guys are in the "morbidly obese" catagory. don't believe everything you read, take a closer look. sure we have some fatties but so does every other service. this so called "problem" is blown way out of proportion and this whole Charlie Foxtrot is just something else supervision can hang their head in shame in.

Agreed! Here in Kandahar its not the AF with the fat ass problem. The Army beats us by far! I have only seen a handfull of overweight AF people but a ton of obese soldiers. Now if you travel up to the Deid (which I did in May) you get a totally different perspective as at least 50% of the AF were fat asses. I can only assume they are ANG or reservists but embarassing nonetheless. Throw in some ultra gay croc shoes, a blue ball cap and an Ipod and there you have yet another reason the other services give us shit. On a positive note the AD AF has come a long way recently when it comes to fitness. I just think the Guard needs to get on board as well.

[Silver Fox]

Yeah, Army and Navy got as many if not more fatties.

I've never seen a fat marine though.

[BigNasty82476]

That is a fact. Fat Marines are hard to come by.

[Joker76]

That is a fact. Fat Marines are hard to come by.

So true...the only thing harder than finding a fat marine, is finding a smart one.

[Smeghead]

That is a fact. Fat Marines are hard to come by.

Don't Marine Corps uniforms stop at much smaller sizes as the other branches? I'd always heard that. Basically if you can't get a uniform to fit, your ass is out. Urban legend? Can CC confirm?

[BigBaze]

So true...the only thing harder than finding a fat marine, is finding a smart one.


One thing I will say about Marines; when we fly them somewhere they are the most behaved individuals we could ask for, all I do is find the Gunny and let him know we want them in their seats with seatbelts fastened during air refueling..and he makes sure that happens or else:)

[NFCstang]

. If I were you and the commander told me I was fat I would strip down to my florecent orange thong and flex on his/her desk.

It's actually AF blue. I don't want to be out of regs you know


Don't Marine Corps uniforms stop at much smaller sizes as the other branches? I'd always heard that. Basically if you can't get a uniform to fit, your ass is out. Urban legend? Can CC confirm?

IDK about that, but they do need some larger sizes in the green pt shorts.

Nothing worse then going to the gym and having a Marine spot you on the bench, looking up and seeing his junk right in front of you.

[Shaken1976]

Last year I was being measured by someone who clearly had no idea what they were doing. They measured me at a 37. When I pointed out that I could feel her finger between the tape and my skin in two places she said oh then I will just take off half an inch. I requested someone else tape me. I ended up with a 33.5 inch waist. Turns out not only was she measuring me with her fingers between the tape and the skin but she was measuring me on my hip bone.

Other than that I was doing the running portion one time when halfway through my last lap I ran out of my shoe. I kept running and then was told that it didn't count since I was not in my complete uniform the entire time of the run. I ended up appealing to someone else who counted the run. Apparently the guy timing the run thought it gave me an unfair advantage. How about you try running in one shoe and one sock. If anything I probably added a few seconds. Not enough to make a difference.

As far as out right cheating I have seen it. Not sure it will ever really go away. Even with civilians in control. Someone will still be someones friends. Civilians have friends too. I saw one girl get measured at a 29 inch waist. She was obviously not a 29 inch waist as I had to borrow a pair of pants from her at one point (My uniform got soaked with hydro fluid and I lived 30 minutes away) and her pants were to big for me. But her best friend was the PTL.

[boangeres]

As a brand new PTL, my first test was a Lt Col. I was a SSgt.

I taped the guy at the HAWC and he measured out at 40. After about five minutes of taping, re-taping and "discussing" the result, I offered to let the HAWC personnel tape him instead (since they had more experience, and I phrased it that way). He declined, and failed his PT test for that and every other category.

As it turns out, this was his last test prior to retirement (that was six months away). Even though he clearly failed, and by a long shot, he got someone else to test him into the mid 80's the next week. I understand that sometimes people have bad days, but losing five inches, several minutes on the run and gaining a few reps on the cals?? Sure. Sounds legit to me.

[psev]

Saw a quite large SNCO who was the commander's pet get a failing score on a Tuesday from the PTL. SNCO came in that weekend to be personally measured by the commander. Lo and behold, the SNCO managed to drop five inches off of his waist from Tuesday to Saturday.


That's one helluva sauna session. The spa my wife went to in Charleston said that they used to see NCOs and officers in there all the time getting body wraps. They told the spa it was so they could get a better waist measurement.

When I was active, there were some months where i barely had time to work out. there are ways to get better at your score without pushing yourself too hard prior to testing. Just takes a little recon, some math, and perhaps giving up a few sodas for two weeks. Here's an article talking about getting better at PT scores. (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1721378/how_to_improve_your_air_force_pt_test.html)

[psev]

Agreed! Here in Kandahar its not the AF with the fat ass problem. The Army beats us by far! I have only seen a handfull of overweight AF people but a ton of obese soldiers. Now if you travel up to the Deid (which I did in May) you get a totally different perspective as at least 50% of the AF were fat asses. I can only assume they are ANG or reservists but embarassing nonetheless. Throw in some ultra gay croc shoes, a blue ball cap and an Ipod and there you have yet another reason the other services give us shit. On a positive note the AD AF has come a long way recently when it comes to fitness. I just think the Guard needs to get on board as well.

the guard? They hire their buddies and brothers for work! I know, b/c I used to be an instructor and we taught a guard guy who said so. he said their PT was a step aerobics class every 6 weeks. Our instructor course had a very intense work out and he was a skinny dude but couldn't hang. Sad. Very sad. Before we start deploying guard and reservists, they definitely need to get in better shape.

[19D-2T2]

the guard? They hire their buddies and brothers for work! I know, b/c I used to be an instructor and we taught a guard guy who said so. he said their PT was a step aerobics class every 6 weeks. Our instructor course had a very intense work out and he was a skinny dude but couldn't hang. Sad. Very sad. Before we start deploying guard and reservists, they definitely need to get in better shape.

psev, that is quite possibly one of the biggest generalizations about guardsman and reservists I've seen posted in a while.

First, Guard and Reserve personnel have been deploying in the AOR just as much as active duty people, in some cases more. I've deployed twice in the last 2 years (1 volunteer, 1 voluntold) and will have already been voluntold for next year (before anyone drops the Guard bum bomb, I have a senior level corporate position with an international company and my projects suffer when I'm deployed).

Our fitness and uniform standards are the same as active duty standards and most meet or exceed those standards. You would be hard pressed to find anyone in my section who does not exceed those standards because I enforce them to my NCOIC's and on down. The career field training standards for my people are also the same as AD people, only my people have 2 days a month to keep up with their training requirements, not 20. Throw in all the same ancillary training requirements as AD and I'm hard pressed to keep my team together long enough to accomplish our home station mission. Every month I lose 1/4 of my people to some ancillary training requirement, CBRNE, M-16 qual, fire extinguisher, SABC, etc.

For every Guard/Reserve fatty I've seen deployed, I've seen just as many AD people who need to be on the weight loss program and would be hard pressed to pass a PT test. Wasn't it PACAF that just got caught, not ANG or AFRC. Granted, the PT program may be a mess, but it's an AF wide mess. Don't blame Guardsman and reservists for that disaster.

Regarding your comment about friends and brothers being "hired" (where I come from we call it enlisted) Guard and Reserve units are tight knit because most people don't PCS every couple of years. It's not uncommon for parents to have their children enlist/become officers in the same Wing, brothers, sisters, husbands, wives are very common. IMHO, that is a strength, not a weakness, in most cases. People serve together for years if not decades. Unit cohesiveness and esprit de corps becomes the norm. For the old timers, sounds like the old days doesn't it?

I think this highlight a much bigger issue with the Air Force. I've had the pleasure of interacting with all the branches on a regular basis and we seem to be the branch with the biggest infighting amongst the components. Stereotyping is rampant in our service, I see it all the time deployed. Mostly from the younger troops. I actually had a SRA tell me that I'm not a real SMSgt because I'm a reserve component Senior. Where are these kids learning this stuff?

I've heard it all on both sides. Oh you are Guard/Reserve, we are going to have to carry you because you don't know your job. Oh, you are active duty, you must be an A-hole. I spend a lot of time dispelling those stereotypes on both sides, but sometimes it feels like shoveling s**t against the tide. We've been at war together for 8 years, will we ever get past this nonsense?

All three components bring a lot to the table, when we as a service focus on our strengths and not our weaknesses, we will all be better off. Maybe, and I'm probably dreaming here, we could start to put a end to some of this madness the Air Force is generating if we stopped the infighting and stereotyping and got down to business.

"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."-Benjamin Franklin

[Modus]

Our fitness and uniform standards are the same as active duty standards and most meet or exceed those standards.


LOL, pardon me I had to laugh at that.

[BigNasty82476]

LOL, pardon me I had to laugh at that.

I fell out of my chair laughing at that. Who does this guy think he is kidding? I wonder if he actually believes it himself. Sad, very sad.

[garhkal]

I have some pretty hefty NCOs getting 80s on their tests alot. I had to test a LtCol once. After she failed, the SNCO there took the paper and thank me. She is now a Col at a different assignment.

Here in the Navy i see that a lot. People with buldging waists getting 80s on both situps and pushups. It is endemic to the point you just have to laught at it some times. BUT at least the run is the only area you cannot really get a hook up other than having someone flat out lie about your time.
Though we did have 8 guys and gals in guam a few years back, try to creatively cheat using those running shoes with the wheels in the heel..


I've also only had 1 commander that allowed us to use duty time for PT, every other one has made us report early for it, contrary to the AFI.


Most commands in the Navy i have been at split it, where 2 hrs were alotted for PT, you would get one on YOUR time and 1 on theirs... And 2 commands had it where if nothing was going on (which was normal for us being a sub tender in home port), we could go pt over on the base.. AND our PT co-ordinator considered bowling 4 games back to back, or doing 3 fifteen minute lasertag sessions a day's pt session..


I've put my career on the line twice just at my current base to fight injustice in the PT program. It sucks, but somebody has to keep people honest/fair.

I have known several navy PRT cordinators like that... One is no longer in though.

[quote]but once you compromise your integrity, your troops have something to hold over your head. It's all cool when you're getting along... but try and hammer them for something, and next thing you know they're in the CC, IG, or ADC's office asking why it is OK for you to break the rules, but thay can't.
/quote]

Well said crusty. As we say in the navy, it is harder to regain respect once lost, and easy as pie to lose it.

[quote]Problem is, especially if you're flightline maintenance, is that the CC may not have enough people to support the flying schedule if they are at PT. So, if we have to choose between the mission and PT, mission will always win....rightfully so.
[/quoet]

Prob there is being fit, is ALSO part of the mission, since being unfit gets you kicked out.

[quote]I've often felt a little skeptical of the 90 degree standard. Many people have enough flexibility in their shoulders and ribs that they risk touching the mat if they try to fall down to 90 degrees.

What I'd like to see is a little game-show buzzer type of counter that you can put underneath the chest of a person doing push-ups. They go down, hit the button, come back up, and that counts as a push-up. It would take the flexibility out of the standard.
/quote]

Agreed. With most women i have seen in the navy, having a 36C or better bust, if they went down to the full 90 degrees required they would be laying ON their breasts... I have also seen many guys who were the same with their gut or built chests.

[psev]

you are right, all the way through and through. No offense to the guard, reservists and active duty who actually do their dang job. The guard units Iiiiiiii knew were definitely like that.
The reserves I worked with at prior bases were 50/50. The reason why I bring up the fitness/ buddy-buddy thing is b/c, even if active duty folks (NCO and below) are out of shape, they are at some point held accountable or could be.

[USAFVIKE]

I know NCO's that have not PT tested since they have been in. They've always had someone to fill in their passing score for them. One that I know will be testing for the first time in his 12 year career when he gets ready to pcs from here in a few months. I had a Chief that would show up to his PT test, let the PTL know he had made it on time and leave without testing. He recieved a passing score everytime.

[Berry5711]

My favorite quote for the Marines PFT is "If you don't get 100 crunches, you don't have a friend."

[pheenix]

Speaking as a PTL. I done the hook up once. This guy on my flight had to do a mock PT test a week prior to him separating. He ask to add 5 push-ups to his score. Which I did. I also did his run and sit-ups, but didn't cheat with those two. (I wasn't there for the taping so I don't know if he got the hook up for that. He end up passing with an 86% and left the Air Force. I have no regret for that, and I didn't do to anyone else.

(The Squadron was threatening to keep him in if he failed the test, even though it was a mock, till he pass the next one. Had to come in during his leave and everything). He wasn't on a program or anything.

I have some pretty hefty NCOs getting 80s on their tests alot. I had to test a LtCol once. After she failed, the SNCO there took the paper and thank me. She is now a Col at a different assignment.


If it was a mock test, how can he be held accountable for his score?

[s.w.r.]

I can honestly say it is nice to see so many people turned off at the idea of cheating on the PT test. I have worked hard over the last few years to get in shap and dropped about 35 lbs total. I find it offensive to see an over weight Air Force member especially one of high ranking.

The best way to eliminate cheating on the PT test is to eliminate the need for it. Standards need to be reasonable, not low, but reasonable, By the old standards I could max push ups, situps and finish my run in about 11:15 and still only get in the low 80's because of my waist. Where as very skinny individuals were a shoe in for a good score no matter how they perform. Very glad to see the standards have changed some.

Another reason people cheat is becuase the nature of thier job offers them no time to stay in shape, it can be very difficult to make to to hit they gym, run, or even get on a treadmill when you are woking 12 hour shifts for months on end.

And one of the biggest reasons there are so many PT issues in the Air force is because of the attitude towards it, it is treated more like a chore then anything else. The best PT program I have been a part of was at Kadena Air Base, three days a week your flight PT'd together in the morning. Here is the hard part for most people to swallow, yes we all got to work a little later and the flying schedule had to tkae a hit but too bad, we can not continue to bad It enhanced comrodary, morale, and peoples attitude towards exercise. Made you feel like a member of the military again, instead of just an air craft technician. It also offered encouragement, challenge and a good way to monitor your troops progress. If we want todays Airman to to take on a warriors mentality we need to remind them that is what they are.

[KTL13]

What is wrong with you people? Since when does more people failing increase your personal score? Quit whining and being so concerned with what other people are doing. Ensure that you hold yourself to standards that you and your integrity can live with. At the end of the day, that is all that you can control and that is all you have to answer to. This probably wouldn't even be an issue if you PT'd as much as you constantly witch hunt your peers.

[Jules]

I don't think it's a witch hunt... there really is a LOT of cheating, and of course everyone who isn't getting that benefit is going to resent that, especially when it's so rampant. It's hard to cheat on the run, which I like. I think instead of doing pushups and situps (which I am terrible at, I make all my money on the run and waist) why not have everyone climb up a rope within an alotted time? It's a "binary" test that is difficult for anyone to fudge. If not that, perhaps another test that doesn't rely on standards that are easily muddied. The waist is also a terrible standard, even though I benefit personally from it.

EDIT: I would also suck at climbing the rope :P I'm just saying it's almost impossible to cheat at it.