We need MORE civilian oversight, the PT Test is just the beginning

[Joker76]

I made these last two posts (PT cheating and No Feedbacks) to prove a point...to all those who say "WHY DO WE NEED CIVILIANS TO PT TEST US"....Lieing about doing feedbacks or just not doing them, on PT test cheating (fixed perhaps) ...its things like this that prove NCOs, SNCOs and Officers DO NEED oversight....

and i'm willing to bet this is only the tip of the iceburg...let me make a list of everything we need oversight on becuase 99% of our leadership and supervisors have no integrity.

1. OJT Records (seriously..who DOES NOT Pencil whip these)
2. Unprofessional relationships (NCO/Supervisors with their Airman) Direct result of being promoted to early
3. Fratenization
4. Web Based "training" SERE 101, Selfaid Buddy Care, ect.. (One person speeds through the test...gets the fail...which then gives them the answer..he/she writes the answers down...and passes them around the room)

Can anyone think of any other examples of where we need civilian oversight since our NCO's, SNCO's, Officers either look the other way and/or are directly involved.....

Now of course...I do think good NCOs/supervisors could put an end to all this nearly Immediatly...but will that ever happen in a day in age where SSgts are early 20s, TSgts are MId 20's and MSgt are Late 20's to Early 30s......i'm not so sure.

[ART]

Now of course...I do think good NCOs/supervisors could put an end to all this nearly Immediatly...but will that ever happen in a day in age where SSgts are early 20s, TSgts are MId 20's and MSgt are Late 20's to Early 30s......i'm not so sure.

There you go!

You not only asked the question, you answered it as well. We need to quit promoting so early.

[BRAVO10000]

I made these last two posts (PT cheating and No Feedbacks) to prove a point...to all those who say "WHY DO WE NEED CIVILIANS TO PT TEST US"....Lieing about doing feedbacks or just not doing them, on PT test cheating (fixed perhaps) ...its things like this that prove NCOs, SNCOs and Officers DO NEED oversight....

and i'm willing to bet this is only the tip of the iceburg...let me make a list of everything we need oversight on becuase 99% of our leadership and supervisors have no integrity.

1. OJT Records (seriously..who DOES NOT Pencil whip these)
2. Unprofessional relationships (NCO/Supervisors with their Airman) Direct result of being promoted to early
3. Fratenization
4. Web Based "training" SERE 101, Selfaid Buddy Care, ect.. (One person speeds through the test...gets the fail...which then gives them the answer..he/she writes the answers down...and passes them around the room)

Can anyone think of any other examples of where we need civilian oversight since our NCO's, SNCO's, Officers either look the other way and/or are directly involved.....

Now of course...I do think good NCOs/supervisors could put an end to all this nearly Immediatly...but will that ever happen in a day in age where SSgts are early 20s, TSgts are MId 20's and MSgt are Late 20's to Early 30s......i'm not so sure.


I think we need civilian oversight to make sure that people aren't spending duty hours on forums, opining on the tax payers dime. :D

Seriously, though - is your position that civilians are less corruptible? I don't buy it.

[LOAL-D]

I think we need civilian oversight to make sure that people aren't spending duty hours on forums, opining on the tax payers dime. :D

Seriously, though - is your position that civilians are less corruptible? I don't buy it.

We could hire foreigners to oversee the civilians...

[BRUWIN]

We could hire foreigners to oversee the civilians...

I like it...something along the lines of Intel's DGS Mission Qualification/Instructor Rated Operator/Mission Evaluator/Mission Evaluator's Evaluator program. Efficiency at it's finest.

[DHarris75]

I don't think we need more civilain oversight. I think we could have restored the equity in PT tests by having PTLs from other units test your unit. Keep it in the HAWC, but you don't "need" a civilian testing you. If the PTL is not in your unit, I think you can restore the integrity.

As far as other topics - I agree part of the problem is early promotions. But it's not as simple as that. While I love to harp on that issue as a good base of some of our problems - it is not the scapegoat to all of our problems.

Integrity and Excellence in All We Do applies to all regardless of rank or years. Pencil Whipping feedbacks, training records, MX activities - it's all BS. But it has always been done. In 1994, my supervisor was a 31 year old Staff (competitive for TSgt w/ 13 years in). He wasn't a slouch either - he was right on pace with where his peers were. And even then, pencil whipping still went on. I considered my supervisor to be a very good NCO - he was in charge of his crew. I never talked to the TSgt Element Chief unless the Staff was gone and the only I ever talked to the MSgt was either something very good or very bad. He considered his job to be the grandfather. We were only to see him happy in public, stern behind closed doors.

My point - even my capable supervisor might have fudged some tasks from time to time to ensure we met the 30 day non-progression cutoff. But some of his peers were the same age, and they pencil whipped quite a bit.

So while I agree that promotions have hurt us - it is not to be blamed for ALL problems. On each level - personal core values have to be accountable.

And I will say that promotions are getting better. It's good to see. But that doesn't help the influx we still have from the high promotion rates of before.

[technomage1]

I disagree that we need civilians to double check us. I think what really needs to happen is a change in mentality. With the reduction in force, everyone is overloaded, therefore we have to prioritize.

I have pencil whipped stuff, and I admit it. But there is a line. I will sign troops off on OJT records if I have seen them do the task in the past, for example, but not just to sign them off. I will speed through questions on OJT, but I answer them myself and have never shared my answers. Most of the stuff I personally pencil whip comes from additional duties, but the same principle applies. I pencil whip my building custiodian records, but not my anti terrorism duties. It boils down to me trying to make the best decision possible for the AF given the time and manning constraints that I have. I wish that I didn't have to make that choice, but I do.

[Stang5150]

We do need civilians to babysit us 24/7. I say we create a "Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice" force. Hey it works for the Saudis. :rolleyes:

[Aitrus]

Pencil whipping...I think that due to doing more with less shortcuts have to be made. There is no way on earth to follow all AFIs 100%. No way, not with the amount of manning, number of stupid little nonsensical rules and ops tempo we have.

There has to be some give.

That's where being an adult and a leader come in. We prioritize and make decisions based on what's really important at the ground level and in the fight, not what the AFI and UCI inspectors say is important. Inspections are all fine and dandy, but when the SHTF, as long as people get trained and get out the door and into the fight, then we've done our job.

[MaintChief]

I made these last two posts (PT cheating and No Feedbacks) to prove a point...to all those who say "WHY DO WE NEED CIVILIANS TO PT TEST US"....Lieing about doing feedbacks or just not doing them, on PT test cheating (fixed perhaps) ...its things like this that prove NCOs, SNCOs and Officers DO NEED oversight....

and i'm willing to bet this is only the tip of the iceburg...let me make a list of everything we need oversight on becuase 99% of our leadership and supervisors have no integrity.

1. OJT Records (seriously..who DOES NOT Pencil whip these)
2. Unprofessional relationships (NCO/Supervisors with their Airman) Direct result of being promoted to early
3. Fratenization
4. Web Based "training" SERE 101, Selfaid Buddy Care, ect.. (One person speeds through the test...gets the fail...which then gives them the answer..he/she writes the answers down...and passes them around the room)

Can anyone think of any other examples of where we need civilian oversight since our NCO's, SNCO's, Officers either look the other way and/or are directly involved.....

Now of course...I do think good NCOs/supervisors could put an end to all this nearly Immediatly...but will that ever happen in a day in age where SSgts are early 20s, TSgts are MId 20's and MSgt are Late 20's to Early 30s......i'm not so sure.

This stuff has been going on since the USAF became a separate service. Not saying it's right, saying it's been around forever. And adding civilians will not make it better. Ever work in AFMC around a lot of civilians? It would be a disaster. And ask yourself this question...why do we take shortcuts or ignore policies? Is it because the policies or instructions have no basis in the real world?

DISCLAIMER: In no way am I advocating not doing the right thing. Far be it for me to cast dispersions on any Air Force policy, instruction, or requirements.

[Measure Man]

Civilain "oversight" of the Drug Demand Reduction Flow monitors...so we wouldn't have to drag guys out of the shop to do it.

[Joker76]

Hmmm, perhaps enlisted cheating on things such as PT tests, OJT records, ancillary training...has become part of our Enlisted Heritage...as my first Flt Sgt told us..."if you aint cheatin, you aint trying"

[LOAL-D]

pay me 150K a year and I'll oversight whatever you got....;)

[Bummed]

I made these last two posts (PT cheating and No Feedbacks) to prove a point...to all those who say "WHY DO WE NEED CIVILIANS TO PT TEST US"....Lieing about doing feedbacks or just not doing them, on PT test cheating (fixed perhaps) ...its things like this that prove NCOs, SNCOs and Officers DO NEED oversight....

and i'm willing to bet this is only the tip of the iceburg...let me make a list of everything we need oversight on becuase 99% of our leadership and supervisors have no integrity.
........


Are you kidding? What civilians do you suppose will be the ones overseeing things? The Lt Col, Maj, CMSgt, SMSgt, or MSgt that is reitring will get the job. Then you will see serious cheating and pencil-whipping. Not a non-mil person, because "they just don't understand the system. It needs to be ex-mil." LOL I can hear the keyboards clicking, writing justifications!

Then, things are even worse because you have a lazy azz that is coasting in that federal job for a second reitrement at GS11-GS13 pay. I worked in a place where supervision retired and then was an adviser to the unit. Created more crap than you could believe to prove that he was needed.

[LOAL-D]

Are you kidding? What civilians do you suppose will be the ones overseeing things? The Lt Col, Maj, CMSgt, SMSgt, or MSgt that is reitring will get the job. Then you will see serious cheating and pencil-whipping. Not a non-mil person, because "they just don't understand the system. It needs to be ex-mil." LOL I can hear the keyboards clicking, writing justifications!

Then, things are even worse because you have a lazy azz that is coasting in that federal job for a second reitrement at GS11-GS13 pay. I worked in a place where supervision retired and then was an adviser to the unit. Created more crap than you could believe to prove that he was needed.

Haha,you nailed that Bummed, jump on the gravy train! If you can't beat 'em join 'em....don't be a sucker!

see post #13

[Bummed]

pay me 150K a year and I'll oversight whatever you got....;)

L-D....LOL.....just get some orders to Vandenberg (I can think of a few more bases). Once there, go to every meeting you can. Do everything you can to not really make a decision, but do question others' solutions. Learn to say "I'm just sayin..." Subtly drive the need for more analysis and review. You will be picked up as a contractor immediately. Then you can work on the GS job. And do less then. LOL

Oh, the stories....LOL

[Silver Fox]

I made these last two posts (PT cheating and No Feedbacks) to prove a point...to all those who say "WHY DO WE NEED CIVILIANS TO PT TEST US"....Lieing about doing feedbacks or just not doing them, on PT test cheating (fixed perhaps) ...its things like this that prove NCOs, SNCOs and Officers DO NEED oversight....

and i'm willing to bet this is only the tip of the iceburg...let me make a list of everything we need oversight on becuase 99% of our leadership and supervisors have no integrity.

1. OJT Records (seriously..who DOES NOT Pencil whip these)
2. Unprofessional relationships (NCO/Supervisors with their Airman) Direct result of being promoted to early
3. Fratenization
4. Web Based "training" SERE 101, Selfaid Buddy Care, ect.. (One person speeds through the test...gets the fail...which then gives them the answer..he/she writes the answers down...and passes them around the room)

Can anyone think of any other examples of where we need civilian oversight since our NCO's, SNCO's, Officers either look the other way and/or are directly involved.....

Now of course...I do think good NCOs/supervisors could put an end to all this nearly Immediatly...but will that ever happen in a day in age where SSgts are early 20s, TSgts are MId 20's and MSgt are Late 20's to Early 30s......i'm not so sure.


Um, newsflash: 80% of those 'civillians' are the same retired croneys doing it now. Let me say from experience, having one military boss and about five civillian bosses.... it's not the answer. They're as bad, if not worse. The only thing that will change is the same guy pencil whipping everything will be wearing a suit and tie or jeans and a polo shirt instead of ABUs or Blues. And you won't be able to get emergency/short notice PT Tests done for deployments or PCSing after duty hours or on weekends and holidays because they're not allowed to work....

[BigBaze]

They just have thought way too much into the PT program, while other more pressing issues still lie waiting on the table. I like the idea of the HAWC doing it, but are they going to fill the ranks of the personnel somehow? Everytime I walk into our HAWC there are maybe a couple people in there to help you if any, and now you want them to PT test the entire base? It kind of makes me sad, if the Air Force would put the effort it puts into PT, Blues Monday and tucking pants into boots...into important issues like perhaps getting us a new tanker , we'd be in a better Air Force. But that's ok...