AF Basic Training

[ScarlettGTO]

Hello all, first time posting and it's due to something that has been driving me CRAZY!

Correct me if I am wrong but hasn't the Air Force been making an attempt to make Basic Training more "warrior oriented"? Leadership has been attempting this by issuing out dummy guns and teaching trainee's how to rifle fight, low crawl etc etc. I am currently TDY at Lackland AFB and have seen this progress being made. Just over a year ago I even had the luxury of shadowing a TI on pickup night at a training squadron. I was rather impressed to be honest with you.....until recently. I even said to myself "wow, times are getting tougher for these airmen, it's about damn time"

You can now find the mini-malls and shopette LITTERED with trainee's that are devouring Burger King, Taco Johns and Popeyes! Where are the TI's? I know they are short manned but it is getting ridiculous! When I went through (only 5 years ago) I didn't even get to look at a piece of cake in Basic let alone leave the walls of the 323rd. I saw a female trainee yesterday snag 2 bags of M&M's, a bag of Hershey Kisses, and 2 Soda's. I have had to correct several on manners and professionalism while out and about. This problem carries over to Tech School as well. With these bad habits, us front line supervisors will progressively have harder and harder times with our troops and still be forced to give them a 5 on their EPR due to that broken system.

Technical Training here is also the same...I will post another thread on that later. I must walk away and cool off.

Opinions? Thoughts?

[sigecaps]

I highly doubt trainees are running around loose, and that they were probably on base liberty or graduation status.

[ScarlettGTO]

Then they are getting Base Lib on every weekend. The Mini-Mall next to the Gateway Inn is like an angry ant hill each weekend due to these trainee's running around. It's not just the weekends either, they are all over the place in the middle of the week. The dorm chiefs march them over their, they get their snacks, candy, BK and lineup outside to be marched back by their dorm chief. It's a shame really, it is not like the good ol' days where it was actual BMT and people were under lock and key. It has truely become a kinder/gentler Air Force.

Anyone who has been down here recently can attest to this.

[Wolf]

When I went through basic (Feb 2008), it was strict. The TI told us the keep our eyes straight forward at all time when we were at the chow hall. We side stepped through the entire line. We were limited to drinking water only, and to drink gatorade we had to earn it. The only time I had a chance to even "see" something like Burger King was the day before Graduation, when my parents came to visit me, on base liberty.

To topic, you said they are getting base lib every weekend? Is it possible you are mistaking with different flights that happened to be at their graduation week? Because flight turnover is very high.

[Capt Alfredo]

Leadership has been attempting this by issuing out dummy guns and teaching trainee's how to rifle fight, low crawl etc etc.

You can now find the mini-malls and shopette LITTERED with trainee's that are devouring Burger King, Taco Johns and Popeyes!

Where are the TI's?

I saw a female trainee yesterday snag 2 bags of M&M's, a bag of Hershey Kisses, and 2 Soda's.

Bob the Angry Flower be not proud.

http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif

[Okie]

Look at the bright side. TI's get the weekends off now. ;)

[Shrike]

Bob the Angry Flower be not proud.



LMMFAO!




.

[fufu]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.......... Sounds like they are preparing them for deployment in the AF. You can get as much candy, soda, hamburgers, cheese sticks, fatboy food you want. I don't see the problem here.....

[ScarlettGTO]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.......... Sounds like they are preparing them for deployment in the AF. You can get as much candy, soda, hamburgers, cheese sticks, fatboy food you want. I don't see the problem here.....


The preparation for a deployment is a good thing, don't get me wrong. I just find it a shame that when troops are getting to their first station they have supervisors that are out performing them in PT. These supervisors at times being almost old enough to have parented these troops. I had 5 troops up until I went TDY. 3 out of 5 of these troops I was out PT'ing. 1 of them failed their test and has less than 6 months in the AF. That's a problem.

[BadBender]

Hello all, first time posting and it's due to something that has been driving me CRAZY!

Correct me if I am wrong but hasn't the Air Force been making an attempt to make Basic Training more "warrior oriented"? Leadership has been attempting this by issuing out dummy guns and teaching trainee's how to rifle fight, low crawl etc etc. I am currently TDY at Lackland AFB and have seen this progress being made. Just over a year ago I even had the luxury of shadowing a TI on pickup night at a training squadron. I was rather impressed to be honest with you.....until recently. I even said to myself "wow, times are getting tougher for these airmen, it's about damn time"

You can now find the mini-malls and shopette LITTERED with trainee's that are devouring Burger King, Taco Johns and Popeyes! Where are the TI's? I know they are short manned but it is getting ridiculous! When I went through (only 5 years ago) I didn't even get to look at a piece of cake in Basic let alone leave the walls of the 323rd. I saw a female trainee yesterday snag 2 bags of M&M's, a bag of Hershey Kisses, and 2 Soda's. I have had to correct several on manners and professionalism while out and about. This problem carries over to Tech School as well. With these bad habits, us front line supervisors will progressively have harder and harder times with our troops and still be forced to give them a 5 on their EPR due to that broken system.

Technical Training here is also the same...I will post another thread on that later. I must walk away and cool off.

Opinions? Thoughts?

* First, Bob the Angry Flower, lol. I'll try not to violate those rules but it'll probably happen.

Second, I was at Lackland earlier this year for a few weeks and I did not see basic trainees eating at the mini malls. I saw tech schoolers and Navy students but no basic trainees. On certain days the basic trainees have base liberty and once they graduate they can leave base for the day. If you are seeing what you think you are seeing please tell the nearest TI. If it's happening it's not with their blessing.

Oh, BTW, "Proud to be 323!", many years ago...

[Seasons]

When I went to Tyndal for Field Training, only a handful of us from each flight got to go to the mall, in the company of our CTAs, and we had 1 hour to pick up all the items requested by our flightmates. That was it. We didn't even get graduation liberty. We graduated, spent the rest of the day cleaning the flight's dorm area and packing, then left at 4AM for the airport.

[AFblue2]

I was just down there a few months ago, and saw them in the mini mall in front of me in the line at taco johns. Saw them going into the barber shop to get haircuts. We were all amazed. I dont know how true it is, but ive been hearing TI's now a days are pretty much tied up with there hands behind there back. So trainees are getting more priviledges. We got a troop here last week straight from tech school and he said 3 times during basic he got to go to the mini mall and grab a bite to eat before goin to the store part to get hygiene items. And that he got 2 phone calls a week, one every sunday after church and then the other mid week. I think i got 2 phone calls the whole time i was in basic, and when we would go the mini mall it was to get what you need and get out. If you werent in there, you were outside in the 120 degree heat standing in formation waiting.

[Seasons]

Hell, I didn't get a single damned phone call. Had to march to church, march to the mall or uniform store, etc. There were no privileges.

[AFblue2]

Its Basic Training that's the way it SHOULD be..but ohh the world we live in now haha

[Rev Mike Large]

That shoppette by the Gateway is used by tech trainees from (I think it's the 342d) the security forces course -- and especially in the early phases, they don't look much different than BMTers. I've been to Lackland on and off many times over the years; I went there for the NCO Academy a few years back and one of my flight-mates was an active TI. One day at lunch, he took us with him and let us sit at the snake pit with them (pretty surreal experience, and a huge challenge not to laugh!). After lunch, we went up to one of the bays. The door guard still caught hell, just like we did in my day 14+ yrs ago. The procedures were the same as they were then. The bay looked just like it used to. It was still not good enough for the TI, just like it never was for us. The trainees still shit their pants, just like we used to.

Bottom line: I'm pretty damn confident basic training hasn't turned into Camp Cupcake over the years. In fact, you take the stress and bs we all (us "older" ones) had and then add 2 more weeks plus deployed and combat-focused training to it.

[AFblue2]

They werent Cops, i'm Security Forces and know cause for one when i'm in line either by myself or with a friend in uniform like i was if it's cop students theyll wanna ask questions about the career field like ask if it gets better or is it the same as school. Also at no point in cop tech school do they go that mini mall with a green web belt with a canteen on the center of the lower back. I can understand someone saying cop tech school at first is like an extension of basic but they dont look nothing alike

[Silver Fox]

Then they are getting Base Lib on every weekend. The Mini-Mall next to the Gateway Inn is like an angry ant hill each weekend due to these trainee's running around. It's not just the weekends either, they are all over the place in the middle of the week. The dorm chiefs march them over their, they get their snacks, candy, BK and lineup outside to be marched back by their dorm chief. It's a shame really, it is not like the good ol' days where it was actual BMT and people were under lock and key. It has truely become a kinder/gentler Air Force.

Anyone who has been down here recently can attest to this.

Actually, there's trainees graduating ever yweekend, so yes, they are getting base lib every weekend. :rolleyes:

[BigT2002]

Well.....unless things have changed since '03 there are huge ways to tell if someone is in tech school or if they are in Basic:

-BMT trainees had to always have their canteen and webbelt and carry around their crappy looking portfolio which had all their crap inside of it
-Tech School students had that brief case thing or nothing at all...not to mention if they are in BLUES they will have their BMT, GWOT, and NDM ribbons on their uniform.

There are tons of variables as to why a BMT trainee would be there. For us at the 331st if we were able to run 2-miles in under 16 minutes, we were allowed to get pancakes in the morning. If we had a positive 341 pulled by another TI or someone of rank we got an extra 30 minutes of patio time for phone calls and stuff. If we destroyed the 2-mile run (14 minutes or less) we were allowed to get Burger King for dinner. If we got a streamer, we were allowed to go to the Bowling Alley and get a Philly Cheesesteak, Burger King, or an hour of patio time depending on what we personally wanted.

We saw our TI everyday but Sunday and that was because after the 2nd week he decided we had earned the freedom and the trust for him to not come in. Our 2nd TI (who was going for her hat) never showed up either because she was a single mom and that was her day to see her daughter.

My point is there are incentives that a lot of TI's have to push their flight to the absolute best/extremes. We only had 6 dropouts from the flight (4 from the PT Test and the other 2 were medical) so that is pretty good if you ask me considering we were there over Xmas/NYD.

[Smeghead]

must ... not ... take ... bait.

But, I'm going through MTIS right now, yes some things have changed, most have stayed the same. As mentioned earlier MTIs have many tools available to motivate trainees. If you never got any perks during your BMT, your flight sucked. My flight didn't get anything until garduation weekend, I know we sucked.

[ScarlettGTO]

must ... not ... take ... bait.

But, I'm going through MTIS right now, yes some things have changed, most have stayed the same. As mentioned earlier MTIs have many tools available to motivate trainees. If you never got any perks during your BMT, your flight sucked. My flight didn't get anything until garduation weekend, I know we sucked.

How is MTIS treating you? Hopefully all is well and much props for doing that job. As for perks? My BMT flight was pretty B.A.! We got the privilege of having dessert one day on our last week. It was the night before PT, there were lots of cake puke piles out on the pad the next morning. BK shouldn't be a motivator, a phone call yes. Fat kid food....not so much

[Hiccups]

ugh i guess im not sitting by the phone waiting on my fiance's calls anymore

[Hiccups]

curiousity.......im not "family" but my fiance is in basics...when he graduates,can i go too? does anyone know? or is it family only

[Gigglendorf]

Yes, you can attend his BMT graduation.

[USAFVIKE]

curiousity.......im not "family" but my fiance is in basics...when he graduates,can i go too? does anyone know? or is it family only

You've stood by him through one of the biggest decisions he has ever made. You're just as much "family" as any wife or husband out there!

[BRAVO10000]

As far as we know :: listens to a "Jody" cadence in head... :: :D

[Laboi]

Well.....unless things have changed since '03 there are huge ways to tell if someone is in tech school or if they are in Basic:

-BMT trainees had to always have their canteen and webbelt and carry around their crappy looking portfolio which had all their crap inside of it
-Tech School students had that brief case thing or nothing at all...not to mention if they are in BLUES they will have their BMT, GWOT, and NDM ribbons on their uniform.

There are tons of variables as to why a BMT trainee would be there. For us at the 331st if we were able to run 2-miles in under 16 minutes, we were allowed to get pancakes in the morning. If we had a positive 341 pulled by another TI or someone of rank we got an extra 30 minutes of patio time for phone calls and stuff. If we destroyed the 2-mile run (14 minutes or less) we were allowed to get Burger King for dinner. If we got a streamer, we were allowed to go to the Bowling Alley and get a Philly Cheesesteak, Burger King, or an hour of patio time depending on what we personally wanted.

We saw our TI everyday but Sunday and that was because after the 2nd week he decided we had earned the freedom and the trust for him to not come in. Our 2nd TI (who was going for her hat) never showed up either because she was a single mom and that was her day to see her daughter.

My point is there are incentives that a lot of TI's have to push their flight to the absolute best/extremes. We only had 6 dropouts from the flight (4 from the PT Test and the other 2 were medical) so that is pretty good if you ask me considering we were there over Xmas/NYD.



You're F@$king kidding me! I was in the 321st HOTEL HELL!! I had 2 calls my entire time there ..the first one I had a piece of paper and wasnt allowed to say anything other than whats writing on it...the second calll was on my 4th week before warrior week...I was there over thanksgiving and xmas... my flight got drill excellence, AEF excelence, and education excellence streamers.... I did'nt have my first burger till the day before my grad...we NEVER had any patio time and I think I probably had 2 hot showers the whole time I was there.... the 321st closed down 2 flights after my graduation in 2006

[blacksheep1208]

Well.....unless things have changed since '03 there are huge ways to tell if someone is in tech school or if they are in Basic:

-BMT trainees had to always have their canteen and webbelt and carry around their crappy looking portfolio which had all their crap inside of it
-Tech School students had that brief case thing or nothing at all...not to mention if they are in BLUES they will have their BMT, GWOT, and NDM ribbons on their uniform.

There are tons of variables as to why a BMT trainee would be there. For us at the 331st if we were able to run 2-miles in under 16 minutes, we were allowed to get pancakes in the morning. If we had a positive 341 pulled by another TI or someone of rank we got an extra 30 minutes of patio time for phone calls and stuff. If we destroyed the 2-mile run (14 minutes or less) we were allowed to get Burger King for dinner. If we got a streamer, we were allowed to go to the Bowling Alley and get a Philly Cheesesteak, Burger King, or an hour of patio time depending on what we personally wanted.

We saw our TI everyday but Sunday and that was because after the 2nd week he decided we had earned the freedom and the trust for him to not come in. Our 2nd TI (who was going for her hat) never showed up either because she was a single mom and that was her day to see her daughter.

My point is there are incentives that a lot of TI's have to push their flight to the absolute best/extremes. We only had 6 dropouts from the flight (4 from the PT Test and the other 2 were medical) so that is pretty good if you ask me considering we were there over Xmas/NYD.

I was in the 331st in 2003 and we never ate at Burger King or the Bowling alley outside of that one day of base liberty you get after graduation. The only time I even made it near the patio was to use a pass to call people to find out their birthday and address for my security clearance paperwork. I'm not saying you didn't have that going on, just that all of us weren't living it up in that squadron.

[BigNasty82476]

You're F@$king kidding me! I was in the 321st HOTEL HELL!! I had 2 calls my entire time there ..the first one I had a piece of paper and wasnt allowed to say anything other than whats writing on it...the second calll was on my 4th week before warrior week...I was there over thanksgiving and xmas... my flight got drill excellence, AEF excelence, and education excellence streamers.... I did'nt have my first burger till the day before my grad...we NEVER had any patio time and I think I probably had 2 hot showers the whole time I was there.... the 321st closed down 2 flights after my graduation in 2006


Wow!!! That sounds pretty hardcore!!!! You must be very proud of yourself.

[blacksheep1208]

Wow!!! That sounds pretty hardcore!!!! You must be very proud of yourself.

Do you think he confused AF basic with a movie about a WWII German POW camp?

[Combat correspondent]

must ... not ... take ... bait.

But, I'm going through MTIS right now, yes some things have changed, most have stayed the same. As mentioned earlier MTIs have many tools available to motivate trainees. If you never got any perks during your BMT, your flight sucked. My flight didn't get anything until garduation weekend, I know we sucked.

SMEGs going to be a TI - I almost forgot! Go get 'em man!

[ScarlettGTO]

I was in subway tonight and saw a bunch of BMTers....I was very curious and tried to fight the urge to ask them what brought them to subway. Well 20 mins later and still standing in line I asked a trainee what the occasion was. He said, and this is no exaggeration, "We made the dorms spotless for an inspection and got to come here....you in tech school bro?"....I said no, I've been in 5 years and am a SSgt, not a bro. I walked off in disgust. There wasn't a TI in sight....and us supervisors wonder why we have such dirt bags running around our shops.

[Smeghead]

I was in subway tonight and saw a bunch of BMTers....I was very curious and tried to fight the urge to ask them what brought them to subway. Well 20 mins later and still standing in line I asked a trainee what the occasion was. He said, and this is no exaggeration, "We made the dorms spotless for an inspection and got to come here....you in tech school bro?"....I said no, I've been in 5 years and am a SSgt, not a bro. I walked off in disgust. There wasn't a TI in sight....and us supervisors wonder why we have such dirt bags running around our shops.

Did you light him up? Pull a 341? I mean, just walking off is hardly helping the problem. A SSgt is still an NCO isn't it?

[Combat correspondent]

Did you light him up? Pull a 341? I mean, just walking off is hardly helping the problem. A SSgt is still an NCO isn't it?

Heck yeah! What good does it do to walk off in disgust and vent on here - fix the problem on the spot and maybe another SSgt wont have to fix a bigger problem later when he gets to his first duty section. We just got a new A1C in from out of tech school on Friday, he is in FTAC now. Well, yesterday he was at our morning muster (not sure why) and I asked him how FTAC was going. He replied, "Man, that shit sucks!"

Ooooh, did he ever pick the wrong dude to "Man!" at. This was at the morning meeting in front of the entire office, mind you. I replied, "Where in BMT and Tech School were you taught to call NCOs Man?" Before he could answer I continued to 'explain' not much has changed since BMT and he is still held to the same standards. The only thing different I can think of right now, I said, was that now, rather than only calling those who outrank him sir/ma'am, he now has other options. For instance, I continued, you can call me Technical Sergeant, you can call me Tech Sergeant and even Sergeant, though I prefer the first two. Never Ever let me catch you calling anyone who outranks you anything other than their rank followed by last name or sir/ma'am.

I think he got the point. If not, another A1C who has had a ton of mentoring surely filled him in. They probably both had choice words for me but I can't give 2 shits. Standards are standards there SSgt and you need to make on-the-spot corrections every time, all the time!

[BigNasty82476]

Heck yeah! What good does it do to walk off in disgust and vent on here - fix the problem on the spot and maybe another SSgt wont have to fix a bigger problem later when he gets to his first duty section. We just got a new A1C in from out of tech school on Friday, he is in FTAC now. Well, yesterday he was at our morning muster (not sure why) and I asked him how FTAC was going. He replied, "Man, that shit sucks!"

Ooooh, did he ever pick the wrong dude to "Man!" at. This was at the morning meeting in front of the entire office, mind you. I replied, "Where in BMT and Tech School were you taught to call NCOs Man?" Before he could answer I continued to 'explain' not much has changed since BMT and he is still held to the same standards. The only thing different I can think of right now, I said, was that now, rather than only calling those who outrank him sir/ma'am, he now has other options. For instance, I continued, you can call me Technical Sergeant, you can call me Tech Sergeant and even Sergeant, though I prefer the first two. Never Ever let me catch you calling anyone who outranks you anything other than their rank followed by last name or sir/ma'am.

I think he got the point. If not, another A1C who has had a ton of mentoring surely filled him in. They probably both had choice words for me but I can't give 2 shits. Standards are standards there SSgt and you need to make on-the-spot corrections every time, all the time!

Hell yeah!!! Thats what I am talking about. Its sad to say that we dont see this type of ass chewing nearly as much as we used to. Good job CC!!

[fufu]

I think he got the point. If not, another A1C who has had a ton of mentoring surely filled him in. They probably both had choice words for me but I can't give 2 shits. Standards are standards there SSgt and you need to make on-the-spot corrections every time, all the time!


Probably?;)

[BigNasty82476]

Do you think he confused AF basic with a movie about a WWII German POW camp?

Hahaha I think you may be right blacksheep. It just goes back to the whole "Basic was soooo much tougher when I went through" thing. Listen guys, its fucking USAF BMT. Its a joke and we all know it. It was a joke when I went through it 12 years ago and I'm sure its just as gay today. Its kind of like the morons who actually think one BMT squadron is "tougher" than the others....are you fucking serious with this shit? BMT=GAY. End of discussion.

[USAFVIKE]

Heck yeah! What good does it do to walk off in disgust and vent on here - fix the problem on the spot and maybe another SSgt wont have to fix a bigger problem later when he gets to his first duty section. We just got a new A1C in from out of tech school on Friday, he is in FTAC now. Well, yesterday he was at our morning muster (not sure why) and I asked him how FTAC was going. He replied, "Man, that shit sucks!"

Ooooh, did he ever pick the wrong dude to "Man!" at. This was at the morning meeting in front of the entire office, mind you. I replied, "Where in BMT and Tech School were you taught to call NCOs Man?" Before he could answer I continued to 'explain' not much has changed since BMT and he is still held to the same standards. The only thing different I can think of right now, I said, was that now, rather than only calling those who outrank him sir/ma'am, he now has other options. For instance, I continued, you can call me Technical Sergeant, you can call me Tech Sergeant and even Sergeant, though I prefer the first two. Never Ever let me catch you calling anyone who outranks you anything other than their rank followed by last name or sir/ma'am.

I think he got the point. If not, another A1C who has had a ton of mentoring surely filled him in. They probably both had choice words for me but I can't give 2 shits. Standards are standards there SSgt and you need to make on-the-spot corrections every time, all the time!


When I got ot my first base I didn't know any other answer than yes sir/ no sir. I said it to the A1C's and SrA who were in charge of training me and I sure as shit said to the E-5's and above. I stand when a MSgt walks into a room and adresses me. Hell as a SSgt I'll stand for an E-6 if the person wearing that stripe isn't a completel tool. Nothing irritates me more though than being in an office or back room and a Commander walks into our building and noone including my fellow NCO's don't call the room to attention.

[Freelancer]

When I got ot my first base I didn't know any other answer than yes sir/ no sir. I said it to the A1C's and SrA who were in charge of training me and I sure as shit said to the E-5's and above. I stand when a MSgt walks into a room and adresses me. Hell as a SSgt I'll stand for an E-6 if the person wearing that stripe isn't a completel tool. Nothing irritates me more though than being in an office or back room and a Commander walks into our building and noone including my fellow NCO's don't call the room to attention.

You shoud do it regardless. I mean, if you stand regularly for other Techs that you are on good terms and think favorably of, then yu should do so for the "tools" as well. You are showing everyone else that your values are selective for only of those you are cool with. You should try and never give off huge glaring pointers to those on the "outside" that perhaps you and the other person aren't on good terms. Your airman might also pick up this and think it's cool to just "blow off" those higher ranking than them just because they think they are a "tool."

[Your_Name_Here]

I was in subway tonight and saw a bunch of BMTers....I was very curious and tried to fight the urge to ask them what brought them to subway. Well 20 mins later and still standing in line I asked a trainee what the occasion was. He said, and this is no exaggeration, "We made the dorms spotless for an inspection and got to come here....you in tech school bro?"....I said no, I've been in 5 years and am a SSgt, not a bro. I walked off in disgust. There wasn't a TI in sight....and us supervisors wonder why we have such dirt bags running around our shops.

I read others' reactions to your story here, and I am wondering if you were in uniform yourself or not. If you weren't, and you're talking to them and they don't know you from Adam, then I can't see why or how they could reasonably expect that you are (presumably) AD and an NCO.
HOWEVER, If you WERE in uniform at that time, then they are/were wrong for being "too familiar," as were you for not addressing it.

[blacksheep1208]

I asked some BMT guys that had just graduated if their lightweight blue jacket came with the air force embroidery on it, or if they had to get it done. Apparently their TI made it mandatory. But they looked like they were scared to be talking to a SSgt, so I won't say it's complete anarchy there. But I did see them walking around downtown holding hands with their wives/gf's and talking on cell phones. When I went through neither of these were allowed. And I was TDY there before the new cell phone rule dropped. Are there any current TI's that are reading these that couuld comment on what's what there?

[ScarlettGTO]

I read others' reactions to your story here, and I am wondering if you were in uniform yourself or not. If you weren't, and you're talking to them and they don't know you from Adam, then I can't see why or how they could reasonably expect that you are (presumably) AD and an NCO.
HOWEVER, If you WERE in uniform at that time, then they are/were wrong for being "too familiar," as were you for not addressing it.

First person to assume I wasn't in uniform. Does it change the fact that a harsh correction should have been made on the spot? No it doesn't. Not that it matters but I was in gym shorts, an old undershirt and those 99 cent shower flip flops. I'm 24 and look like I am 19 and could easily have been confused for (and have been confused for a tech schooler, even by other NCO's while I am out of uniform?).

It should never even get as far as it did. SOMEONE well before me (and there weren't too many people to handle him before he crossed my path) dropped the ball on setting the standards.

One NCO can't fix an epidemic of out of order lower enlisted. For every one I (or you TSgt) correct, a dozen more are squeezed out of the Lackland puppy mill.

I'll go back to my corner and take my lashings from all you upstanding NCO's who make corrections everytime on an airmen no matter how small or insignificant it may seem.

[Smeghead]

It should never even get as far as it did. SOMEONE well before me (and there weren't too many people to handle him before he crossed my path) dropped the ball on setting the standards.

One NCO can't fix an epidemic of out of order lower enlisted. For every one I (or you TSgt) correct, a dozen more are squeezed out of the Lackland puppy mill.

Yeah you're right. It's someone else's fault so why bother. Kinda like voting, one vote doesn't matter so nobody should bother with that either.

[ScarlettGTO]

Yeah you're right. It's someone else's fault so why bother. Kinda like voting, one vote doesn't matter so nobody should bother with that either.

Exactly! Well, votes do matter though.

[AFKILO7]

I have had to spend more time at Lackland for training (outside of basic and Tech school) than I really ever want to, and I'll be back again in Sept. I have no problem correcting an Airmen, Basic Training or Tech School, there have been times where I planned going to shoppette when I knew there would be no Trainees just because I didn't want to deal with it.

I have a story for you all; so I am TDY at Lackland, I'm an NCO, I walk out of one of the shoppettes and I see four rifles laying against the building next to one of the doors. There is a flight facing me, across the sidewalk but not next to the weapons. I approach one of the Basic Trainees and ask her if the weapons belong to their flight. After three minutes of gibberish I get the impression that the weapons do not belong to them. So I grab the weapons and carry them inside so I can find a Training Instructor. I ALMOST felt bad because the only TI I could find was a massive man, who looked like he should've been a Marine. Once he saw me carrying four weapons his eyes bulged out of his head and I could tell he was about to rage until he saw that I was a NCO. I explained where I found the weapons and that they were left unattended. He found the Trainees, and they weren't his airmen either.

H-O-L-Y Shit! I have never seen anyone get their assed chewed like that EVER! I was impressed.

[Your_Name_Here]

First person to assume I wasn't in uniform. Does it change the fact that a harsh correction should have been made on the spot? No it doesn't. Not that it matters but I was in gym shorts, an old undershirt and those 99 cent shower flip flops. I'm 24 and look like I am 19 and could easily have been confused for (and have been confused for a tech schooler, even by other NCO's while I am out of uniform?).

It should never even get as far as it did. SOMEONE well before me (and there weren't too many people to handle him before he crossed my path) dropped the ball on setting the standards.

One NCO can't fix an epidemic of out of order lower enlisted. For every one I (or you TSgt) correct, a dozen more are squeezed out of the Lackland puppy mill.

I'll go back to my corner and take my lashings from all you upstanding NCO's who make corrections everytime on an airmen no matter how small or insignificant it may seem.

I guessed that you must have been in civies, as I can't imagine any Airman saying what they said had you been in uniform.

Well if you were dressed like that and pass for late teens in age, why should anyone have assumed you are an NCO right off the bat? If I was one of those trainees talking to someone who gives no inkling that they are indeed a servicemember, I'd have probably said the same thing. You made it easy to be mistaken for Joe Schmoe from off the street and got addressed accordingly. Yes--your look and appearance mattered this time.

Where it "should" have gotten to is irrelevant; once the situation presented itself, your choices were: ignore it, deal with it less-than-100%, or deal with it to your satisfaction. I think most posters' (and my) impression is that you picked the middle option.

Blaming LAFB isn't the answer either. Airmen come from all walks of life--and bring their unique outlook and attitudes. That ISN'T ever going to change. There is no "epidemic;" merely young Airmen looking for leadership from those appointed over them--the lucky ones find it. Additionally, whether Basic Trainees or Tech School students, they aren't going to perfectly execute every time either. They WILL fall short at times.

I know you are looking for lashings; well, I don't have any for you. Here's the thing: the way to correct others is the way you feel would be a fair/equitable correction had you committed that same infraction. If you like being treated like a small child by someone acting like a d!ck, then by all means have at it. Bluff and bluster is overrated as an approach to discipline--I know. In other words, corrections you make do not have to be harsh. You should, however, leave no doubt about what the standard is, where they fell short, and what you expect to see in terms of their compliance.

[Signal2Noise]

Well, after reading this thread, I realize I must have been in the last hard class to go thru Basic. :)

[sanguines]

Heck yeah! What good does it do to walk off in disgust and vent on here - fix the problem on the spot and maybe another SSgt wont have to fix a bigger problem later when he gets to his first duty section. We just got a new A1C in from out of tech school on Friday, he is in FTAC now. Well, yesterday he was at our morning muster (not sure why) and I asked him how FTAC was going. He replied, "Man, that shit sucks!"

Ooooh, did he ever pick the wrong dude to "Man!" at. This was at the morning meeting in front of the entire office, mind you. I replied, "Where in BMT and Tech School were you taught to call NCOs Man?" Before he could answer I continued to 'explain' not much has changed since BMT and he is still held to the same standards. The only thing different I can think of right now, I said, was that now, rather than only calling those who outrank him sir/ma'am, he now has other options. For instance, I continued, you can call me Technical Sergeant, you can call me Tech Sergeant and even Sergeant, though I prefer the first two. Never Ever let me catch you calling anyone who outranks you anything other than their rank followed by last name or sir/ma'am.

I think he got the point. If not, another A1C who has had a ton of mentoring surely filled him in. They probably both had choice words for me but I can't give 2 shits. Standards are standards there SSgt and you need to make on-the-spot corrections every time, all the time!


I don't know that I agree. There is definitely a line when dealing with people who outrank you, but saying "Man, FTAC sucks!", to me, doesn't imply referring to anyone as "man". It sounds more like an expression for emphasis. I wasn't there and I didn't hear the tone in which it was said, but it sure sounds like an overreaction to me.

Anyways, I'm going to opine that requiring such strict, nonsensical discipline in the day-to-day environment can create unnecessary stress on a person (because they'll be unhappy at work) and turn a potential good troop into a yes-man (because they're afraid of the attitude they'll receive if they disagree!). I'm not advocating the "kinder, gentler Air Force" but let's work smarter, not harder. Being a ridiculous hardass just makes your troops resent you and your supervison, which inhibits mission accomplishment. You can still maintain appropriate, professional relationships between superior and subordinate without being a dick.

.02

[HawaiianTSgt]

The thing about what you're saying is...if you continue with the discipline that was instilled in basic training and tech school EARLY on...which he was taking care of....he will know not to do the retard things. Obviously, the individual will need to work his/her way to where they're comfortable to do their job....but keeping the troops in check doesn't ruin their careers. i'm living testament....i've had my ass chewed a lot.

I'm still a hard working TSgt...at just 10 years in. They motivated me. They didn't discourage me.

[Michaep]

First person to assume I wasn't in uniform. Does it change the fact that a harsh correction should have been made on the spot? No it doesn't. Not that it matters but I was in gym shorts, an old undershirt and those 99 cent shower flip flops. I'm 24 and look like I am 19 and could easily have been confused for (and have been confused for a tech schooler, even by other NCO's while I am out of uniform?).

It should never even get as far as it did. SOMEONE well before me (and there weren't too many people to handle him before he crossed my path) dropped the ball on setting the standards.

One NCO can't fix an epidemic of out of order lower enlisted. For every one I (or you TSgt) correct, a dozen more are squeezed out of the Lackland puppy mill.

I'll go back to my corner and take my lashings from all you upstanding NCO's who make corrections everytime on an airmen no matter how small or insignificant it may seem.

1) Airmen are part of a "family" looking to "connect" with others, especially in difficult times such as BMT or Tech School

2) You look 19 and were wearing an old undershirt and flip flops

3) Did you NEVER ask "hey buddy, can you tell me what its like in the 5th week....etc..." "Buddy" is not a proper term...but I guarantee you said it at some point while in uniform

4) While military bearing is a lot more in BMT....if you're not "one of them" aka an instructor, then you were looked at as another fellow airman going through the same rough time and he was looking to connect and be friendly

5) NCO's are instructed NOT to mess with the Trainees and NOT to pull 341's while at Lackland for training

6) Until you have a smokey the bear hat they don't belong to you...it's kinda like punishing someone else's children

7) The problem isn't Trainees...it's the current Active Duty force....such as medical folks who forget they're in the military

[Bumble78]

I was there for NCOA just over a year ago, didn't have a TI in the flight so didnt get to tour the Dorms. But we were specifically told that while we could address deviations, we were not TIs and were not allowed to pull 341s or yell at any one. I did see a lot of BMTers running around base, not just on the weekend either. Way different than when I went though 12 years ago.

[technomage1]

My SOP for dealing with any correction is that same for a basic trainee and up. If I see something wrong, I'm going to politely let them know about it in the assumption that they just didn't realize it. This gives them the option to go "Oh, thanks for letting me know", which is what happens 99% of the time. We're all human, we all make mistakes and forget things now and again.

If they look puzzled and say something like "I didn't know" I explain the rule and where it came from. Perfect example is backpack color that came out a few years ago. A lot of people weren't aware of the change.

If they give me lip, that's when the chewing begins.

[jacobdaniel]

I don't know that I agree. There is definitely a line when dealing with people who outrank you, but saying "Man, FTAC sucks!", to me, doesn't imply referring to anyone as "man". It sounds more like an expression for emphasis. I wasn't there and I didn't hear the tone in which it was said, but it sure sounds like an overreaction to me.

Anyways, I'm going to opine that requiring such strict, nonsensical discipline in the day-to-day environment can create unnecessary stress on a person (because they'll be unhappy at work) and turn a potential good troop into a yes-man (because they're afraid of the attitude they'll receive if they disagree!). I'm not advocating the "kinder, gentler Air Force" but let's work smarter, not harder. Being a ridiculous hardass just makes your troops resent you and your supervison, which inhibits mission accomplishment. You can still maintain appropriate, professional relationships between superior and subordinate without being a dick.

.02

THIS!
:thumbup:

[Joshs_mom]

Hello all, first time posting and it's due to something that has been driving me CRAZY!

Correct me if I am wrong but hasn't the Air Force been making an attempt to make Basic Training more "warrior oriented"? Leadership has been attempting this by issuing out dummy guns and teaching trainee's how to rifle fight, low crawl etc etc. I am currently TDY at Lackland AFB and have seen this progress being made. Just over a year ago I even had the luxury of shadowing a TI on pickup night at a training squadron. I was rather impressed to be honest with you.....until recently. I even said to myself "wow, times are getting tougher for these airmen, it's about damn time"

You can now find the mini-malls and shopette LITTERED with trainee's that are devouring Burger King, Taco Johns and Popeyes! Where are the TI's? I know they are short manned but it is getting ridiculous! When I went through (only 5 years ago) I didn't even get to look at a piece of cake in Basic let alone leave the walls of the 323rd. I saw a female trainee yesterday snag 2 bags of M&M's, a bag of Hershey Kisses, and 2 Soda's. I have had to correct several on manners and professionalism while out and about. This problem carries over to Tech School as well. With these bad habits, us front line supervisors will progressively have harder and harder times with our troops and still be forced to give them a 5 on their EPR due to that broken system.

Technical Training here is also the same...I will post another thread on that later. I must walk away and cool off.

Opinions? Thoughts?

Wow! My son is currently going through boot camp at Lackland AFB and all I can say is that I am really surprised. He graduates in a couple of weeks, and I know for a fact that he hasn't had any luxuries like that! In fact, they allowed him his first soda last week (no ice allowed) because of his high perfomance records. He currently holds the fastest run time, the most sit ups, and the most push up records, along with being a team leader for all but the first two days of his time at boot camp. Because of all of that, he was rewarded with a soda with no ice! So I'm not sure who these people are that are sitting around eating at Burger King! They actually took my son's group to an ice cream shop and made them sit there in the 103 degree weather and watch people eat ice cream - but they weren't allowed so much as an ice water!

[Steel412]

I was there for NCOA just over a year ago, didn't have a TI in the flight so didnt get to tour the Dorms. But we were specifically told that while we could address deviations, we were not TIs and were not allowed to pull 341s or yell at any one. I did see a lot of BMTers running around base, not just on the weekend either. Way different than when I went though 12 years ago.

See, ten years ago when I went through the 320th, anyone could pull a 341 on you. I haven't been back to Lackland since I graduated, but I did go back to Sheppard for 7-Level school and it seemed a little different. The pipeline Airmen weren't as "scared" or "intimidated" by NCOs as I remember being when I was in their shoes. I treat everyone, regardless of rank with as much professionalism and respect as I can. However, should an Airman get out of line, it is my duty as an NCO to correct them.

[GroundRatPatriot]

I went through BMT in Feburary and we were only allowed to go to the BX when we truely needed something and had a very good reason to need it. My flight's TI allowed us go in SMUs seemingly without his supervision but we knew the vehichle of which he drove and saw it everytime we were there, which kept us on our toes getting only what we needed, SMU'd up and marched back to the dorms, only to see our TI's vehicle pulling up in his normal parking space. 324th MTI don't mess around!

heck as for burger king on Lackland, I went there only during base leave when I graduated. Only ate at the KFC in the BX once, which was during 5th week which was the only time we ever got base liberties.

Basic wasn't hard, but I did learn ALOT of things which I am very grateful for. I do wish it was longer so they could have gave us more training in SABC and aswell as Survivial skills/rifle training.

[JD2780]

We had the BMT recuiting team come through Nellis a few months back. One of my students had hat hanging out of his pocket. The TI went up to him and tried to light him in the foodcourt of the BX. Now simply going and saying SrA please tuck your hat in. Knowing this Airman, i know he would've said yes sgt, and pressed on. Seriously what was the purpose of lighting this guy up in the BX foodcourt? She was a SSgt. He was a SrA. I know he should've been spoken to, but really. Thats just crazy.

[2430 MHz]

We had the BMT recuiting team come through Nellis a few months back. One of my students had hat hanging out of his pocket. The TI went up to him and tried to light him in the foodcourt of the BX. Now simply going and saying SrA please tuck your hat in. Knowing this Airman, i know he would've said yes sgt, and pressed on. Seriously what was the purpose of lighting this guy up in the BX foodcourt? She was a SSgt. He was a SrA. I know he should've been spoken to, but really. Thats just crazy.

I would have loved to witness this...and then get involved in the matter immediately and brief the MTI on not being professional in public and living up to the MTI Standards :D

[JD2780]

Yea my stud came back from lunch and immediately told me what happened. It was a completely lack of professionalism. There is a time and place for everything. That was not.

[ArmyWriter]

I was recently at the Gateway Inn at Lackland and I did see a lot of trainees at the mini mall. However, the only trainees I saw eating were Air Force and Navy students in Tech School. All of the BMT trainees I saw were under close supervision of MTIs. Although when I was in basic training, we never saw a mini mall/PX/BX, candy, civilian vehicles or anything that looked civilian.

[rolypolyman]

No base liberty? I went through BMT in 1989. Early on we were treated like dirt and deprived of all luxuries, including personal choices at the chow hall. But BMT softened up after the third week, at which point we were occasionally allowed an hour at the "tiny mini mall" near the dorms, which didn't have fast food but did have a rec center with pool tables and jukebox, a micro-BX, and a phone center. It regularly had a lot of BMT troops. We got several hours of base liberty on the last two weekends, which gave us access to fast food, all the MWR stuff, and so on, and I recall eating at Anthony's pizza a few times and BK perhaps once. We got town pass on top of that.

Reading through all the posts in this thread we clearly had it easy in those days... BMT was only 6.5 weeks and none of the warrior training except for the obstacle course.

A couple of pictures inside our BMT flight I got during the last week there (3723rd).

http://imgur.com/mwCCf.jpg

http://imgur.com/xS9vH.jpg

[SENDBILLMONEY]

Do you think he confused AF basic with a movie about a WWII German POW camp?

The POWs had it easy compared to my basic.

When *I* went through basic in 1986, they'd only let us lather and rinse, but not repeat. Hard times, man. Hard times.

[rolypolyman]

I don't know whether this is of any interest, but I was digging through some old papers and found my notebooks from basic training. I figured it might be interesting to share what the basic policy was in July 1989.

Base liberty appeared to have been framed for us as an introduction to MWR, as in preparation for this we were briefed about MWR programs and what makes them run. All in all we had 5 base liberties (pretty much starting Day 14 and each weekend and holiday afterward) and 1 town pass.

Allowable visits were:
Chapparal and Skylark recreation centers
Chapparal and Warhawk gyms
Skylark bowling alley
Golf course (in which case tennis shoes were authorized with BDUs once on course, hat optional)
Pizza parlor (Air Express)
History + Tradition Museum and Security Police Museum
BX
Corral Theater and BX Theater
Our own patio

Specifically off limits were:
Arnold Hall rec center
NCOs and officers clubs (TI was very emphatic about this)
Other BMTS squadron's patios
Mixed groups after dark
Construction areas, firing range, confidence course

Base liberty times were, if day, 0900-2000L, or if evening, 1700L or after last meal to 2200L. No alcohol purchases allowed, no horseplay, no PDA, if not back in time subject to AWOL. Update money lists upon return.

I don't know whether any of that's changed over the years, but it's one snapshot in time.