New Pt Test Charts & Details

[ART]

Looks like it got a little more challenging.


http://www.afpc.randolph.af.mil/affitnessprogram/index.asp

[Jumper5]

Since PT during duty time is no longer going to be a mandatory requirement, I wonder how many units who actually do organized PT will let their programs fall by the wayside.

I also like to see that we are getting merit badges for our PT performance. :facepalm:

[Mi11er]

I dont think it got any harder... I think it actually got a little easier... in the performance department at least. You may have to shave a couple inches off the waist to get those points back but it seems the rest of it will be easy. And trust me... i have never scored a 90 so this is not the opinion of a person who never had a problem to begin with.

[CrustySMSgt]

When I got the first bootleg copy of the charts, I re-ran my unit's numbers. Most people actually improve their overall scores by 6-8 points. HOWEVER, the minimums are no joke. Of my 44 people, there were 12 instances (some mulitples on a single individual, so not an overall 12 fails) where people did not meet the minumums, and another 8 where they were on the bubble. So while the big picture reflects you are more fit, if you bust a minimum, you still fail.

Should be a pretty big wake up call... when combined with centralized testing and twice a year... people had better get serious.

[Capt Alfredo]

The first person who scores a 85 and fails is going to raise holy hell.

For example, I could have scored an 86 (with new charts) this year by doing 4 fewer sit-ups and according to this BS I would have failed.

Not liking the looks of this at all.

[Mi11er]

Maybe... but I think this is whats going to add that component of strength. You may be able to run like the wind and weigh next to nothing but if you dont have the strength to rock out some pushups and situps then you fail. Which makes perfect sense, so I think it will work out well. I really think that the Fitness Cells are going to get out of hand... you know it will be some fat ass civilian that cant even do a proper pushup or situp that will be judging you and telling you what you are doing wrong. Thats where the BULLSHIT flag will get stuffed down their throat.

[Modus]

Is that first section supposed to be 29 and under?

[takthekak]

CMSgt Roy:

Posted : Wednesday May 20, 2009

Q. What is Chief Roy’s view of the PT program?
A. It’s funny that you say that because I just took my PT test and I passed.

Q. What was your score, your waist measurement?
A. I don’t know what my score is. I just know I passed. That is what matters.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CMSAF Roy:

Posted 8/21/2009

"I take fitness seriously, and so should you," said Chief Master Sgt. of the
Air Force James A. Roy. "The new Air Force fitness test is coming soon and will
incorporate significant changes aimed at creating a continuous culture of fitness."

[fufu]

The only part of this I don't like(besides the points) is that there is no 25-29 category. I feel much different at 29 than I did at 18. My knees hurt more and my back flares up occasionally due to a mild bulging disc. I think having me do more situps at this age than I had to do graduate basic is little ridiculous.

[BadBender]

Looks like it got a little more challenging.
http://www.afpc.randolph.af.mil/affitnessprogram/index.asp

I don’t know about that man. This week my section did our quarterly mock PT test. Since it technically “didn’t count” I decided to not push myself and instead go at what I consider a regular pace. One of my friends is a PTL and he did my waist measurement and I told him to give me the “real” no freebie score and he did. I knocked out the crunches and pushups and maxed them both as always and ran at a good pace. When it was done I had actually did a little better than last time. I got an 80.45. That is about what I have gotten over the last half decade of testing. I took my numbers and plugged them into the “new” scoring chart and came out at 84.5 points. My score actually went up a little, bonus! It makes you think though. If I score exactly the same next year, on paper at least, it will appear I have gotten healthier without actually having done so? That brings home the old question; does this test and scoring mechanism actually measure real physical fitness? Because my score will go up, does that mean I am fit to fight? Does it mean my future health risk will go down any? Will my supervisor or commander think I am a better leader / technician because my score went up?

[LOAL-D]

We need some people to run till they die....then they'll re-think and bring back the bike test...

I'll go first

[CrustySMSgt]

I really think that the Fitness Cells are going to get out of hand... you know it will be some fat ass civilian that cant even do a proper pushup or situp that will be judging you and telling you what you are doing wrong. Thats where the BULLSHIT flag will get stuffed down their throat.

we're 9 months into using them in PACAF, and the BS flag hasn't come in to play yet...


Is that first section supposed to be 29 and under?

It says less than 30... same thing

[fufu]

[QUESTION: Will commanders still be required to provide fitness time during duty-hours?

ANSWER: Commanders will continue to emphasize the importance of fitness and provide Airmen fitness time during duty hours when mission permits, but will no longer be mandated by AFI-248 to allocate fitness time during "traditional" duty hours. Again, it is every Airman's responsibility to achieve and maintain AF Fitness standards.

This strikes me as total crap. Not that many of us were getting PT time anyway. Commanders weren't following the AFI, weren't held accountable as well. Now we are getting tested twice as often, but getting "less" time to prepare for the test.

The AF is trying to create this Army culture, but it just doesn't work with our mission.:argue:

[Joker76]

Did anyone notice the BEST part of the test? You can actually make the minimum score on every section of the test...and still not pass the overall test...

SO why have those low standards as minimum...you must score THIS to pass THIS section...but even if you pass each section by doing the minimum required to pass each section...you will FAIL the test...

WTF KIND OF SENSE DOES THAT MAKE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

[mocitytx1]

Did anyone notice the BEST part of the test? You can actually make the minimum score on every section of the test...and still not pass the overall test...

SO why have those low standards as minimum...you must score THIS to pass THIS section...but even if you pass each section by doing the minimum required to pass each section...you will FAIL the test...

WTF KIND OF SENSE DOES THAT MAKE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?



Because the AF leaders dont have a clue

[AF_MSgt]

If your last test was Jan 2009, your next test will be in Jan 2010 to begin your 6 month cycle, then again in Jul 2010, etc.
If your last test was Mar 2009, your next test will be in Mar 2010 to begin your 6 month cycle, then again in Sep 2010, etc.
If your last test was Jul 2009, your next test will be in Jan 2010 to begin your 6 month cycle, then again in Jul 2010, etc.
If you test Sep 2009, you will test again in Mar 2010 to begin your 6 month cycle, then again in Sep 2010, etc.
If you test Dec 2009, you will test again in Jun 2010 to begin your 6 month cycle, then again in Dec 2010, etc.

So let me get this straight. If I tested in March of 2009, I get to wait 12 months until it's time to test again. But if I tested in July of 2009, I can only wait 6 months until it's time to test.

What sense does this make? Or am I missing something?

[AF_MSgt]

Commanders may institute "practice" or "diagnostic" tests in order to gauge a member's progress, but such a test will not be counted as an "official" test or entered into AF FMS for documentation purposes. Members will always know when their next scheduled test is required.

Finally. We can now put an end to the "I'll test you as much as I want too" mentality. In my unit, if you score a 75-79.99, you have to take an official test every 90 days. But if Johnny scores an 80, he only has to test once a year. Totally unfair in my opinion and this new policy will put an end to it.

[CrustySMSgt]

So let me get this straight. If I tested in March of 2009, I get to wait 12 months until it's time to test again. But if I tested in July of 2009, I can only wait 6 months until it's time to test.

What sense does this make? Or am I missing something?

If everyone who was over 6 months since their last test in Jan, A) it would overwhelm the testing facilities, and B) the same thing would happen in Jul and Jan every year. They've got to phase in the start dates to accomodate the surge.

[ART]

Did anyone notice the BEST part of the test? You can actually make the minimum score on every section of the test...and still not pass the overall test...

SO why have those low standards as minimum...you must score THIS to pass THIS section...but even if you pass each section by doing the minimum required to pass each section...you will FAIL the test...

WTF KIND OF SENSE DOES THAT MAKE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Maybe leadership wants you to do something beyond the minimum in one or more sections. Maybe you don't run very well, but you can knock out push ups. Maybe you're fast, but comparatively weak in the upper body. But hey, at least you can have a bit of a gut and still get max points for the A/C.

It gives you, the member, a little bit of wiggle room but expects you to do a minimum in each category. Nothing wrong with that.

[Joker76]

Maybe leadership wants you to do something beyond the minimum in one or more sections. Maybe you don't run very well, but you can knock out push ups. Maybe you're fast, but comparatively weak in the upper body. But hey, at least you can have a bit of a gut and still get max points for the A/C.

It gives you, the member, a little bit of wiggle room but expects you to do a minimum in each category. Nothing wrong with that.

If they want you to go above the minimum..they should make that new "what they want you to do" the minimum to pass.....

Makes absolutley no sense that you can pass every indiividual section and still not pass the test, also makes no sense that you can have a passing score and still not pass....

This entire "problem" could have been solves with just saying 'ok, from now on you take the current PT Test twice a year"...would have taken 10 minutes..problem solved...instead we spend millions on research to come up with THIS!?!?!??!

If only tax payers could ask for refunds.............

[akruse]

If they want you to go above the minimum..they should make that new "what they want you to do" the minimum to pass.....

Makes absolutley no sense that you can pass every indiividual section and still not pass the test, also makes no sense that you can have a passing score and still not pass....

This entire "problem" could have been solves with just saying 'ok, from now on you take the current PT Test twice a year"...would have taken 10 minutes..problem solved...instead we spend millions on research to come up with THIS!?!?!??!

If only tax payers could ask for refunds.............

Where do you see that "millions of dollars" were spent on this?

[oih82w8]

We need some people to run till they die....then they'll re-think and bring back the bike test...

I'll go first

Too late... three reported for FY09 - PT Fatalities :(

Category: Ground and Industrial, Sports & Rec
Date: 07 Mar 09, 1030 Hrs
Status: On-duty
Assigned to: AFRC
Rank: TSGT
PPE Used: N/A
Tox Test Results: Negative
Narrative: Member collapsed after run portion of the annual physical fitness evaluation. Airman fatal

Category: Ground and Industrial, Sports & Rec
Date: 12 Feb 09, 0900 Hrs
Status: On-duty
Assigned to: ANG
Rank: SSGT
PPE Used: N/A
Tox Test Results: Negative
Narrative: Member collapsed during the annual physical fitness evaluation. Airman fatal.

Category: Ground and Industrial, Sports & Rec
Date: 14 Nov 08, 0740 Hrs
Status: On-duty
Assigned to: PACAF
Rank: SMSGT
PPE Used: N/A
Tox Test Results: Negative
Narrative: Member collapsed after completing run portion of physical fitness test. Airman fatal.

[Speakit]

This is PT testing at its worse; the primary problem with the initial test was the waist measurement, that’s all that needed to be adjusted. Now for those of us who always scored 100 the test just got more difficult, 67 pushups, 58 sit-ups and now they must run under a 9:12….only adjustment here, those who score 100 will score less … especially since the Sq PT time isn’t mandatory – we could have at least kept that mandatory….

Bottom line those who score in the low 80s will be in the mid 80s, those who scored 100s, will score less.

[ART]

I get the feeling that no matter what the test looks like, there will always be a group of people who hate it.

Meh...whatever.

Either way, as long as you are reasonably fit, this test is a breeze.

[Cobra5]

Sweet, my PT score will go from a 93 to a 96!

[KOTULCN]

Well all of my component scores changed at 32 with new test. Basically from what I read is all males 30-39 HAVE to run a time no greater the 14 minutes right? I usually run in about 13:30's and now I will have to shave off about 45 more seconds to get a pass if my waist and pushups/situps stay the same.

[Smeghead]

Well all of my component scores changed at 32 with new test. Basically from what I read is all males 30-39 HAVE to run a time no greater the 14 minutes right? I usually run in about 13:30's and now I will have to shave off about 45 more seconds to get a pass if my waist and pushups/situps stay the same.

I'm in the same boat as you. Glad I've been running a lot more lately

[DHarris75]

Finally some changes I can get behind. I reserve the right to change my mind once I read the actual AFI, but by all accounts some changes that make sense.

I agree 110% with the minimums. I am a bigger guy (37.5"-38" depending on the week). I have to go all out to get a 12:24 which gives me a bit above a 77 (now a 80). I hate seeing guys with skinny waists running in the high 13s/low 14s and still getting an 85. Now we all have to run at least a minimum pace. So Kudos!

I love the fact how they now spell out about the PT testing frequency. Problem with AFIs in general is it leaves too much open to interpretation for low level CCs. I also agree with taking out the mandatory time during the duty day for PT. I know our local unit won't change how we do business (PT 3 times a week as a unit and 2 times a week on your own). But I know some units can't afford that - now at least unit members can't cite the AFI for the mandatory PT time. Sorry - some missions are diff. And yes - the ARMY has a diff mentality - but the ARMY also do not operate (as a norm) operating air fields on bases. I was at Fort Gordon and their day revolved around training - physical and technical. Not much of a local mission if you know what I mean. Wherease the AF has local missions - we have airfields with planes landing all teh time. So mission is diff and thus our daily focus is diff.

I'll be the first to say I am not a PT fenatic. But this test is fairly easy. I use to fail it and then I figured out why. Wasn't rocket science - I ran too slow. I would run the minimum (for me - 14:24) and then hope I can max out pushups and situps to go with my bigger waist. Then I worked hard on my run and got it down - and now my PT worries are over. With that run time, it'd take a pretty bad day for me to fail. So really, this test isn't hard to pass...and I use to whine it was...what a diff a little running will make.

I do have one concern. What does it mean to have a current test prior to deployment? Our deployments are 6 mos long. And our test frequency is 6 months. So here is my problem - say you test in Jan - deploy in March. You aren't due to test again until Jun, but your TDY takes you out to Sept. Do you have to test again before you go? Then if you do, you'll have to test again right when you get back. I see some problems with this - testing 3-4 times in 12 months to accomodate our deployment cycles. I hope that they will some common sense. If you are current the day you are to deploy, then you should stay good until you get back.

Otherwise - what happens if you test the week prior to a deployment that you've known about...and you fail. You have to wait until last minute so you'll stay current through entire deployment...so now what? Someone else gets tagged last minute for your slot?

Lots of questions on that for me.

[fufu]

I love the fact how they now spell out about the PT testing frequency. Problem with AFIs in general is it leaves too much open to interpretation for low level CCs. I also agree with taking out the mandatory time during the duty day for PT. I know our local unit won't change how we do business (PT 3 times a week as a unit and 2 times a week on your own). But I know some units can't afford that - now at least unit members can't cite the AFI for the mandatory PT time. Sorry - some missions are diff. And yes - the ARMY has a diff mentality - but the ARMY also do not operate (as a norm) operating air fields on bases. I was at Fort Gordon and their day revolved around training - physical and technical. Not much of a local mission if you know what I mean. Wherease the AF has local missions - we have airfields with planes landing all teh time. So mission is diff and thus our daily focus is diff.

Then our PT test should be based on OUR mission, not theirs.....which IMO it isn't.


I do have one concern. What does it mean to have a current test prior to deployment? Our deployments are 6 mos long. And our test frequency is 6 months. So here is my problem - say you test in Jan - deploy in March. You aren't due to test again until Jun, but your TDY takes you out to Sept. Do you have to test again before you go? Then if you do, you'll have to test again right when you get back. I see some problems with this - testing 3-4 times in 12 months to accomodate our deployment cycles. I hope that they will some common sense. If you are current the day you are to deploy, then you should stay good until you get back.

Otherwise - what happens if you test the week prior to a deployment that you've known about...and you fail. You have to wait until last minute so you'll stay current through entire deployment...so now what? Someone else gets tagged last minute for your slot?.

I think you make a good point here. You could end up testing all the time under those circumstances. I don't think we'll see the actual AFI until Sept, regardless of what the website says. If we will be testing every 6 months, then I think it would be reasonable to remove the requirement for it to be "good" thru the deployment.

[jacobdaniel]

If we will be testing every 6 months, then I think it would be reasonable to remove the requirement for it to be "good" thru the deployment.

Agreed 100%

[takthekak]

This would make a great poster for the new PT program coming.
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123164544

Lastly, if it's true that they are taking out the 3x PT time given in the AFI,
I must say it is stupid. It was the only official thing I can remember
that people could point to and say, "according to the AFI..."
I am not saying all fields and CCs stuck to it, but some did, now no one will have to.

[AF_MSgt]

If everyone who was over 6 months since their last test in Jan, A) it would overwhelm the testing facilities, and B) the same thing would happen in Jul and Jan every year. They've got to phase in the start dates to accomodate the surge.

That completely makes sense. Thanks!

[WarBird]

QUESTION: What if I have a profile that prevents me from doing one or more components of the test?

ANSWER: The AF will no longer use the ergo cycle, the 3-mile walk, or the STEP test as alternate aerobic tests. Instead, members who cannot run based on a profile will perform a 1-mile walk that will determine VO2 max capability. Also, if member is exempt from any component, members will only be categorized as "pass" (adjusted composite score of 75 or higher) or "fail," (adjusted composite score below 75).


So...let me get this straight. Lets say I have a physical condition that makes walking any measurable distance quite painful, such as a partially torn ligament. My profile would exempt me from running, but would still allow for walking at a brisk pace?

I've just been rendered speechless. I don't even have something dumb and/or witty to say! :(

[Speakit]

Ok, you pass the test your considered fit, but when u deploy, carrying your A,B,C,D bags etc, you have issues, and you can't walk a good 400m lap in IBA without heavy breathing. Maybe we should just eliminate all the madness and just concentrate on a combat style PT, maybe this is something we should steal from other services...its great your waist is small, you run 9 minute mile.5, but can you pull a man across a field? could you carry your own bags, is your IBA to heavy with ammo? if yes is the anwer...then running faster and a smaller waist isn't going to help.

before we go to this new program, can i get those 18 days owed to me, supposedly u get 3 days (in com policy letter) off for every 100pts...funny thing I haven't gotten any of those days off

[Speakit]

Funny thing to if you always score 100 on your PT test, its oh, u got a hundred - again. if you pass by 1 pt your a hero. where's the motivation to bust a#$ on the test.

[swp]

Funny thing to if you always score 100 on your PT test, its oh, u got a hundred - again. if you pass by 1 pt your a hero. where's the motivation to bust a#$ on the test.

They have fixed this, you will get to wear a patch on your PT gear! Keep up the good work!

[BRUWIN]

Funny thing to if you always score 100 on your PT test, its oh, u got a hundred - again. if you pass by 1 pt your a hero. where's the motivation to bust a#$ on the test.

When was someone that passed by 1 point ever lauded as a hero? Why is that people who score high think they deserve something? That said...I would like to see PT scores added to WAPS in some form or fashion...it only makes sense to motivate people.

[CrustySMSgt]

So...let me get this straight. Lets say I have a physical condition that makes walking any measurable distance quite painful, such as a partially torn ligament. My profile would exempt me from running, but would still allow for walking at a brisk pace?

I've just been rendered speechless. I don't even have something dumb and/or witty to say! :(

my bet is that response is poorly worded; if you're on a profile that says no impact, then this option wouldn't be a player.

[CrustySMSgt]

Ok, you pass the test your considered fit, but when u deploy, carrying your A,B,C,D bags etc, you have issues, and you can't walk a good 400m lap in IBA without heavy breathing. Maybe we should just eliminate all the madness and just concentrate on a combat style PT, maybe this is something we should steal from other services...its great your waist is small, you run 9 minute mile.5, but can you pull a man across a field? could you carry your own bags, is your IBA to heavy with ammo? if yes is the anwer...then running faster and a smaller waist isn't going to help.

before we go to this new program, can i get those 18 days owed to me, supposedly u get 3 days (in com policy letter) off for every 100pts...funny thing I haven't gotten any of those days off

Face it, there will never be a test that makes everyone happy. You want some hua test, others want one that required them to carry a ream of paper across the office and reload the printer in in under 2 min... THe currect test a measure of general fitness designed to measure 300K plus Airmen... it will never be perfect, or capture the needs of every AFSC...

ANd if you haven't asked your CHAIN OF COMMAND where your 18 days are, no point in bitching here... no one here can help you. If you're owed them, man up and ask... if you get told no, call them on it...


Funny thing to if you always score 100 on your PT test, its oh, u got a hundred - again. if you pass by 1 pt your a hero. where's the motivation to bust a#$ on the test.


They have fixed this, you will get to wear a patch on your PT gear! Keep up the good work!

Good thing they came up with the patch, so folks like speakit have another way of showing off their 100s instead of just running around patting themselves on the back!


When was someone that passed by 1 point ever lauded as a hero? Why is that people who score high think they deserve something? That said...I would like to see PT scores added to WAPS in some form or fashion...it only makes sense to motivate people.

I think there should be some credit given, but I'd propose something similar to decs. Have a 100 on PECD, get 5 points, score an Excellent, get 3. Pass... good on ya. Give some sort of reward for ecelling (or just being genetically gifted) and let the referal stick motivate those who might end up on the other side of the line.

[kenny10]

wow hahah you guys already get a damn ribbon for pretty much EVERYTHING.........next you will want a ribbon for showing up to work everyday (if you don't already have one) and then after that for breathing.

[Speakit]

When was someone that passed by 1 point ever lauded as a hero? Why is that people who score high think they deserve something? That said...I would like to see PT scores added to WAPS in some form or fashion...it only makes sense to motivate people.

Ok, no-one was awarded the gold star for PT excellence by the President, but I have seen the borderline persons in my shop get put on the pedestal on several occasion... the person who scores perfect on the test has to work just as hard, and with the new scale harder.

And I do feel I deserve my days off as the CC policy letter states…I do need some motivation to get 100, or why bother trying

This new scale is set up to boost AF pass rates, bottom line...in my opinion.

[oih82w8]

...I do have one concern. What does it mean to have a current test prior to deployment? Our deployments are 6 mos long. And our test frequency is 6 months. So here is my problem - say you test in Jan - deploy in March. You aren't due to test again until Jun, but your TDY takes you out to Sept. Do you have to test again before you go? Then if you do, you'll have to test again right when you get back. I see some problems with this - testing 3-4 times in 12 months to accomodate our deployment cycles. I hope that they will some common sense. If you are current the day you are to deploy, then you should stay good until you get back.

Otherwise - what happens if you test the week prior to a deployment that you've known about...and you fail. You have to wait until last minute so you'll stay current through entire deployment...so now what? Someone else gets tagged last minute for your slot?

Lots of questions on that for me.

Yep, that seems to be the deal, I was supposed to do my annual test in Sep 09, but my current deployment has me coming back after that, so I had to test prior to deploying. With the new scheduling, it would seem that you would have to test upon return from your deployment (if it was six months) as well. And it would skew your testing months as well; instead of testing in Jan and Jul, you would be shifted to say Aug and Feb. Since I last tested in Jun 09, my next test would be Jun 10, and the follow up scheduled for Dec 10.

If you fail, they (leadership) can send you anyway, and test you upon your return. We had one with a line number for MSgt, and he failed his PT test, prior to deployment, and he is here at UNDISCLOSED LOCATION anyway, with his line number hanging over his head.

...from my interpretation of the AFI and past experiences, your results may (and probably will) vary.

[Speakit]

Face it, there will never be a test that makes everyone happy. You want some hua test, others want one that required them to carry a ream of paper across the office and reload the printer in in under 2 min... THe currect test a measure of general fitness designed to measure 300K plus Airmen... it will never be perfect, or capture the needs of every AFSC...

Not argument their...agreed

[/QUOTE]ANd if you haven't asked your CHAIN OF COMMAND where your 18 days are, no point in bitching here... no one here can help you. If you're owed them, man up and ask... if you get told no, call them on it...[/QUOTE]

Not bitching just stating the facts...and correct me if I'm wrong but I'd say this is a great place for bitching

[/QUOTE]Good thing they came up with the patch, so folks like speakit have another way of showing off their 100s instead of just running around patting themselves on the back![/QUOTE]

You joking right, a patch...that is so Air Force...Lame



oooooooooo

[KnuckleDragger]

Max 39" waist...period. How many people will be waivered for that?

Why is there such a large gap between max "10" component score and "9.5"? (not complaining just a difference in the tests).

"...we can adequately gauge a member's fitness with a 1 ½ mile run and 1 minute each of pushups and situps" --> Many <30 y/o males can do 67 push ups...but, I find it hard to believe that the same amount can do it with proper form in 60 seconds.

Overall, interesting changes. We'll deal with it, we're professionals.


**Sidenote** For those already dealing with Fitness Assesment Cells:

How has consistency been in your personal opinion? Do you feel all people are being taped properly(3 people from my HAWC have taken drastically different approaches on me)? How big of an issue has the proper form/rep count been? Has anyone disputed their score over proper form/count? Is there always more than two people(tester/testee) at the testing site if such disputes arise? With large groups being tested, are the rest times between components being adhered to?

[Speakit]

wow hahah you guys already get a damn ribbon for pretty much EVERYTHING.........next you will want a ribbon for showing up to work everyday (if you don't already have one) and then after that for breathing.

Umm we get that, we call it the AF Good Conduct Medal...sad but true...you don't come to work you dont get it

[kenny10]

Umm we get that, we call it the AF Good Conduct Medal...sad but true...you don't come to work you dont get it

thats what your good conduct medal consists of? Coming to work on time?

[BTDTNM]

Classic Air Force. Take something that was jacked up to begin with and then proceed to fuck it up even more. Good job! I place this buffoonery directly on ex-CMSAF McKinley. He was supposed to be the advocate for the enlisted corps. You can't tell me this is what the enlisted corps wanted. Unfortunately it appears by the quotes that our new CMSAF has turned into the same yes man politician that all of our recent ones have been. We should just eliminate the position all together at this point.

If only we could place as much emphasis on weapons training as we do this nonsense. I guess it is cheaper to prepare us to run away from the bad guys than to kill them right up front in the first place.

[takthekak]

Too late... three reported for FY09 - PT Fatalities :(

Category: Ground and Industrial, Sports & Rec
Date: 07 Mar 09, 1030 Hrs
Status: On-duty
Assigned to: AFRC
Rank: TSGT
PPE Used: N/A
Tox Test Results: Negative
Narrative: Member collapsed after run portion of the annual physical fitness evaluation. Airman fatal

Category: Ground and Industrial, Sports & Rec
Date: 12 Feb 09, 0900 Hrs
Status: On-duty
Assigned to: ANG
Rank: SSGT
PPE Used: N/A
Tox Test Results: Negative
Narrative: Member collapsed during the annual physical fitness evaluation. Airman fatal.

Category: Ground and Industrial, Sports & Rec
Date: 14 Nov 08, 0740 Hrs
Status: On-duty
Assigned to: PACAF
Rank: SMSGT
PPE Used: N/A
Tox Test Results: Negative
Narrative: Member collapsed after completing run portion of physical fitness test. Airman fatal.

I would like to see the statistics for people who died in battle becuase they couldn't pass the PT test.
After all, that is what has been driving this stuff for the past 17 years right???

[Smeghead]

thats what your good conduct medal consists of? Coming to work on time?

How the fuck does it affect you in any way what ribbons we get? You want more ribbons, come on over to the Blue. If not, then the Marine Corps forum is that way; go enjoy your endless topics about how anyone who isn't an 03 is shite. Later.

[Sgt HULK]

what the F!

Airmen achieving and maintaining excellent fitness assessment scores will be allowed to wear a patch on their PT uniform recognizing their accomplishment. Patches will be awarded for the following:

* Excellent: Airmen with a current fitness assessment score of equal to or greater than 90 and meeting all component minimum requirements.
*
Sustained Excellence: Airmen with the most recent four or more tests over a continuous minimum two- year period with fitness assessment scores equal to or greater than 90 and meeting all component minimum requirements.
* Maximum Performer: Airmen with a current fitness assessment score of 100.
* Sustained Maximum: Airmen with the most recent four or more tests over a continuous minimum two- year period with fitness assessment scores of 100.

[CrustySMSgt]

wow hahah you guys already get a damn ribbon for pretty much EVERYTHING.........next you will want a ribbon for showing up to work everyday (if you don't already have one) and then after that for breathing.

Not sure which service you represent, but the Army already gives promotion credit for PT, as well as has patches to demonstrate excellence, and I'm pretty sure the Marines give credit for PT. So this has nothing to do with an AF specific issue. Thanks for your (worthless) post.

[CrustySMSgt]

Max 39" waist...period. How many people will be waivered for that?

**Sidenote** For those already dealing with Fitness Assesment Cells:

How has consistency been in your personal opinion? Do you feel all people are being taped properly(3 people from my HAWC have taken drastically different approaches on me)? How big of an issue has the proper form/rep count been? Has anyone disputed their score over proper form/count? Is there always more than two people(tester/testee) at the testing site if such disputes arise? With large groups being tested, are the rest times between components being adhered to?

Not sure what you mean by "waivered." Seems pretty clear that if you have over a 30" waist, you will fail... Not aware of an current, or future waivers beyond the standard limited exemptions for abdominal surgery.

The HAWC here has 2 testers. They both assess differently, one being uber-critical on the pushups. Leadership has addressed the issue, but as far as I know, nothing has been done about it. Seems it would be pretty simple to look at the average count for both guys and see one is much lower.

[fufu]

The HAWC here has 2 testers. They both assess differently, one being uber-critical on the pushups. Leadership has addressed the issue, but as far as I know, nothing has been done about it. Seems it would be pretty simple to look at the average count for both guys and see one is much lower.

This concerns me the most. How one guy counts over another. Perhaps we need this:
http://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Pushup-PA6200-Counter/dp/images/B001O0F98S

[KnuckleDragger]

Not sure what you mean by "waivered." Seems pretty clear that if you have over a 30" waist, you will fail... Not aware of an current, or future waivers beyond the standard limited exemptions for abdominal surgery.

I am probably misinformed. I thought some individuals were allowed to either use Body Fat Measurements(not BMI) or the "pod" to assess body/fat composition.


Glad to hear some HAWCs can't even get 2 testers to count accurately:rolleyes:

[Bael]

Why do females get a three-minute leg up on the run times?

[Bael]

The AF is trying to create this Army culture, but it just doesn't work with our mission.:argue:

Doesn't the Army work out together?

[CrustySMSgt]

I am probably misinformed. I thought some individuals were allowed to either use Body Fat Measurements(not BMI) or the "pod" to assess body/fat composition.



Haven't seen any guidance on BMI substitute for waist... but to get a good BMI score, someone with over a 39" waist is gonna have to be pretty darn tall. I don't see anyone in the AF with a 39" waist that would qualify for full points under BMI.

Never heard of "the pod."

[fufu]

Why do females get a three-minute leg up on the run times?

Generally speaking women run slower, check the olympic running times men vs women for the same distance(courtesy Crusty on that information, cause I asked the same question awhile back).


Doesn't the Army work out together?

As far as I know, yes they do workout together.

[WarBird]

Haven't seen any guidance on BMI substitute for waist... but to get a good BMI score, someone with over a 39" waist is gonna have to be pretty darn tall. I don't see anyone in the AF with a 39" waist that would qualify for full points under BMI.

Never heard of "the pod."

I heard if your BMI is <25, you get full points for the waist measurement, at least here at Wright-Patt.

We have a "pod" at our HAWC. It is a big, egg shaped machine that you can sit in. They key is you must enter the "bod pod" wearing nothing but the tightest and most revealing speedo you can find. I'm not kidding. If the tester can't see the outline of your junk, it isn't tight enough. I think it works by blowing air across your body, or air pressure displacement, or something. To be honest, I don't know... it just told me I was fat. Gee thanks, I already knew that Mr. Perverted Robot Machine!

[air1986]

:confused:
Maybe... but I think this is whats going to add that component of strength. You may be able to run like the wind and weigh next to nothing but if you dont have the strength to rock out some pushups and situps then you fail. Which makes perfect sense, so I think it will work out well. I really think that the Fitness Cells are going to get out of hand... you know it will be some fat ass civilian that cant even do a proper pushup or situp that will be judging you and telling you what you are doing wrong. Thats where the BULLSHIT flag will get stuffed down their throat.

Not true about the fat ass civilian comment. From what i have read the test proctors need to also test 2 times a year(i may be wrong with number of times). They need to score at least an 80 percent or better on all components of the test.So you won't be seeing a proctor who is eating twinkies and counting:)

But in a base in korea won't say which base have the civilians who are contracted korean national. I havent taken my test here yet but from what other people say they seem to always lose count of your progress. I have heard alot of people say they failed or almost failed because they weren't counting laps right and etc...

But as for the civilian comment as from what i heard they must test and score higher than AF does.

[AF Chief]

I scored a 90 in November last year. I put in my same measurements, run, sit ups and push ups and scored a 98.7. But, I am in the over 40 category.

[technomage1]

Crunching in my last test numbers, I'd get a 91.6 (an increase of 6 points) with the new test. I think the run, push ups, and situps are all good, though I do have two concerns about the new guidelines. Firstly, I've never asked for or gotten a hook up from anyone (in fact, at my base we have had centralized taping for a while). However, I've noticed a large (as in 5") difference in my waist measurement depending on who tapes me. So I think that is one area that we have to be very, very careful in, especially if we are going to fail people in each category. Right now, I have no confidence what my waist would be because of the above, while in all the other categories I know what I'd get with no problem.

My second area of concern would be the alternate to the run. I like the idea of a quantitative test, so I'll shed no tears about the bike test, but the alternate should be low impact for folks who are hurt.

[technomage1]

Got this down the chain, it originated from CMSAF Roy and has some good info.

AIR FORCE FITNESS PROGRAM QUESTIONS & ANSWERS
(As of 19 Aug 09)

1. Why did the Air Force revise the Air Force Fitness Program?
Answer: CMSAF McKinley requested an Air Force Audit (summer 2008) and it clearly revealed the fitness program needed significant improvement.

2. What did the Air Force Fitness Audit reveal?
Answer: Commanders did not consistently take action for members not meeting fitness standards and did not properly implement fitness testing – Unit programs did not engender a “culture of fitness”

3. When will the new Fitness Program be effective?
Answer: The revised program will take effect 1 Jan 2010.

4. What is the CSAF’s vision and expectation of a new and improved Fitness Program?
Answer: A fitness program that is: Clear, understandable, and much simpler. He expects a new fitness program supporting a year-round fitness culture, providing visible score increases for improved performance, and a clear message that health and fitness are directly related to mission accomplishment. Airmen should incorporate a “year-around culture of fitness” into their daily lives.

5. I never have to run a mile and half in combat, and the enemy doesn’t care how big my waist is. Why didn’t the AF adopt a combat-performance test?
Answer: This was never the intention in revising the fitness program. The intention was to design a science-based test that incorporates health-based standards across all fitness components. Our goal in revising the program was to motivate Airmen to improve their health and fitness by rewarding incremental improvement and moving them from Unsat to Sat and from Sat to Excellent, thereby reducing their health risk both now and in the future. The next generation of AF fitness program may incorporate AFSC-specific requirements and combat-type activities, but that may be several years in the future.

6. Will Airmen test more than once a year?
Answer: Yes. Each Airman will test twice a year – some AF Reserve and ANG personnel will test once a year.

7. When will twice-a-year fitness testing cycles begin?
Answer: The CSAF mandated all Airmen will fitness test during the first half of calendar year 2010. Airmen will be required to test before the end of the month in which they are due. For example:
• If your last test was 5 Jan 09, your next test will be in Jan 10 to begin your 6 month cycle, then again in Jul 10, etc.
• If your last test was 2 Mar 09, your next test will be in Mar 10 to begin your 6 month cycle, then again in Sep 10, etc.
• If your last test was 7 Jul 09, your next test will be in Jan 10 to begin your 6 month cycle, then again in Jul 10, etc.
• If you test 15 Sep 09, you will test again in Mar 10 to begin your 6 month cycle, then again in Sep 10, etc.
• If you test 29 Dec 09, you will test again in Jun 10 to begin your 6 month cycle, then again in Dec 10, etc.

8. The other services run longer distances and allow more time for pushups and situps. Why didn’t the AF change these aspects of the test to be more in line with the other services?
Answer: We could have increase running distance to 2 or 3 miles, and changed the pushup and situp times to 2 minutes instead of 1 minute. However, all we would have gotten was a longer test. Consensus among fitness experts indicates that we can adequately gauge a member’s fitness with a 1 ½ mile run and 1 minute each of pushups and situps.

9. Who maintains the sole responsibility to meet and maintain Air Force fitness standards?
Answer: Each Airman is responsible for meeting and maintaining fitness standards. Commanders have the responsibility of their unit fitness program. The new fitness AFI will more clearly emphasize each Airman’s responsibility to meet and maintain fitness standards.

10. Who will conduct fitness tests and where will the program be administered?
Answer: Trained civilian employees will conduct fitness tests. The fitness program will be administered at new centrally located Fitness Assessment Cells (FAC). For GSUs or other locations with less than 1K military members, members may travel to the closest base with a FAC (commander discretion) or Physical Training Leaders and/or Unit Fitness Program Managers will continue to administer the test at the GSU location.

11. Why did the Air Force create Fitness Assessment Cells (FAC)?
Answer: To reduce administrative burden on squadrons and maximize objectivity in testing.

12. Will the component weighing on the fitness test change? If so, why?
Answer: Yes. The aerobic run will account for 60% and body composition 20% -- muscle fitness (crunches and pushups) will remain 10% each. The component weighing was changed to incorporate science-based criterion along the health/fitness hierarchy. As an indication of overall fitness, Aerobic > Body Composition > Muscle Fitness.

13. Will there be minimum requirements for each fitness test component to pass the test?
Answer: Yes, Airmen will be required to meet minimum component requirements and will still be required to have a composite score of 75 to pass the test. This ensures we have a more well-rounded test and that members must demonstrate a minimum level of proficiency in all components to pass the test.

14. How were the minimum requirements for each component determined?
Answer: For the aerobic and body composition (abdominal circumference) components, the minimum is established at the cut line between moderate and high health risk associated with that component. We want members to avoid the high health risk region in order to pass the test. For pushups and situps, the minimums were established at the 50th and 60th percentiles, respectively, for performance among the entire U.S. population based on widely-accepted fitness data.

15. Will the SG community continue to have ownership of the Fitness Program?
Answer: No. AF/A1 now is the OPR for the Fitness Program, but will continue to partner with the SG community in regards to the health aspects of overall fitness.

16. When will the new fitness AFI be published to the field?
Answer: The target is August 2009.

17. Will the Air Force Fitness Management System (AFFMS) continue to support the Air Force Fitness Program?
Answer: Yes. The system will be enhanced to provide detailed, “dynamic” feedback on fitness results with the goal to help Airmen improve in targeted areas.

18. Will the 5-year age groupings change?
Answer: Yes. Age groupings will change to 10-year groups (< 30, 30-39, 40-49, 50-59, and 60+). These changes are science based and more simple.

19. Will there be new commander guidance on administrative actions for failed fitness tests?
Answer: Yes. Commanders will now be allowed to take administrative action for first time failures if they feel it’s warranted. The commander will be given an available options table in the Fitness AFI to provide clear guidance and focus on recommended actions based on number of failed tests.

20. I’ve heard that there will be “random” or “no-notice” fitness tests. Is that true?
Answer: No, that is not true. Members will be required to test twice a year. However, members may require an “out of cycle” test in order to ensure currency for a deployment, assignment, etc. Commanders may institute “practice” or “diagnostic” tests in order to gauge a member’s progress, but such a test will not be counted as an “official” test or entered into AF FMS for documentation purposes. Members will always know when their next scheduled test is required.

21. How will the CSAF keep fitness on his radar and as a top priority?
Answer: Fitness metrics will be reported in regular increments from unit to wing to MAJCOM.

22. In what other ways will the Air Force measure fitness compliance?
Answer: We will incorporate fitness into the IG arena in future Unit Compliance Inspections (UCI). This will ensure overall compliance in the administration and execution of the fitness program, not whether all members in a unit or wing can pass the test.

23. Can an Airman have a documented failed fitness test as of the close out date of their evaluation and still receive an overall “5” EPR?
Answer: No. The revised AFI 36-2406, “Officer and Enlisted Evaluation Systems” will ensure no Airmen with a referral report (for fitness or other reasons) will receive an overall “5” rating.

24. How will other personnel actions be affected by a member’s fitness category?
Answer: Officers and enlisted members will be required to have a passing, current fitness score to be selected for or attend PME. All members must have a current fitness test in order to deploy. There are other restrictions regarding retraining, reenlistment eligibility, and assignment eligibility that could be impacted by a failed fitness score, especially if such a score results in a referral OPR or EPR. The appropriate AFIs will be updated to reflect the impact fitness results have on these personnel programs.

25. Will commanders still be required to provide fitness time during duty-hours?
Answer: Commanders will continue to emphasize the importance of fitness and provide Airmen fitness time during duty hours when mission permits, but will no longer be mandated by AFI-248 to allocate fitness time during “traditional” duty hours. Again, it is every Airman’s responsibility to achieve and maintain AF Fitness standards.

26. Will the new program allow Airmen who fail a fitness test to retest prior to 42 days?
Answer: Yes. The current rule which mandates a 42-day waiting period following a failed fitness test will be eliminated. With the new program, with Commander approval Airmen may volunteer to retest prior to the 42-day period if they are medically able and ready to test.

27. What fitness categories will be used?
Answer: Since fitness is a readiness issue, the AF will use ORI/UCI-type scoring categories to reflect members’ results. Excellent (> 90.0), Satisfactory (75.0 – 89.9), and Unsatisfactory (< 75.0) will replace the current categories of Excellent, Good, and Poor.

28. Will there be any incentives for members who clearly demonstrate fitness excellence?
Answer: Yes. Patches are being designed for wear on the PT uniform. Patches will recognize both one-time and sustained (four consecutive tests over 2 years) performance in the Excellent category (composite score of > 90), and for scoring a perfect 100.

29. What if I have a profile that prevents me from doing one or more components of the test?
Answer: The AF will no longer use the ergo cycle or the 3-mile walk as alternate aerobic tests. Instead, members who cannot run based on a profile will perform a 1-mile walk that will determine VO2 max capability. Also, if member is exempt from any component, members will only be categorized as “pass” or “fail”.

[Shrike]

I guess bad science is better than no science at all.

:rolleyes:

[CrustySMSgt]

I heard if your BMI is <25, you get full points for the waist measurement, at least here at Wright-Patt.

We have a "pod" at our HAWC. It is a big, egg shaped machine that you can sit in. They key is you must enter the "bod pod" wearing nothing but the tightest and most revealing speedo you can find. I'm not kidding. If the tester can't see the outline of your junk, it isn't tight enough. I think it works by blowing air across your body, or air pressure displacement, or something. To be honest, I don't know... it just told me I was fat. Gee thanks, I already knew that Mr. Perverted Robot Machine!

The BMI under 25 applies to the current system. Will have to wait until the new AFI to see if it will carry over.

As far as the tester's gotta see your testees pod, it is not any form of official measurement by AF standards, so while it may be a tool the HAWC uses to provide body composition counseling, it is not used for measuring BMI for the purposes of PT Evals. If they ARE using it, they are violating the AFI.


I guess bad science is better than no science at all.



Glad to see all that electro-shock therapy is finally working! :tongue:

[technomage1]

How much you want to bet that the PT patch for Excellent will be mandatory?

Talk about an incentive NOT to score that high.

[Shrike]

How much you want to bet that the PT patch for Excellent will be mandatory?

Talk about an incentive NOT to score that high.

I could see that conversation:

Hawk Contractor: Congratulations, you scored a 91.25!
NCO: SHIT! Son of a biscuit!
HC: You thought you did better?
NCO: No, now I have to wear that stupid-ass patch. What am I, a friggin' 9-year old Cub Scout?
HC: Oh...I see. I think.
NCO: Look, this might seem a little odd or unethical, but could you fudge my numbers a bit?
HC: Let me get this straight: you want me to make it look like you scored...less?
NCO: Could you do that? That would be GREAT!

[CrustySMSgt]

I could see that conversation:

Hawk Contractor: Congratulations, you scored a 91.25!
NCO: SHIT! Son of a biscuit!
HC: You thought you did better?
NCO: No, now I have to wear that stupid-ass patch. What am I, a friggin' 9-year old Cub Scout?
HC: Oh...I see. I think.
NCO: Look, this might seem a little odd or unethical, but could you fudge my numbers a bit?
HC: Let me get this straight: you want me to make it look like you scored...less?
NCO: Could you do that? That would be GREAT!

Very Nice :D

[technomage1]

I could see that conversation:

Hawk Contractor: Congratulations, you scored a 91.25!
NCO: SHIT! Son of a biscuit!
HC: You thought you did better?
NCO: No, now I have to wear that stupid-ass patch. What am I, a friggin' 9-year old Cub Scout?
HC: Oh...I see. I think.
NCO: Look, this might seem a little odd or unethical, but could you fudge my numbers a bit?
HC: Let me get this straight: you want me to make it look like you scored...less?
NCO: Could you do that? That would be GREAT!

I was thinking more along the lines of the cost to get all that crap sewn on, but this works too. Maybe AAFES complained about losing money over the ABU no patch rule, and this is the way to throw them a bone.

Oh, wait, I was channeling WillsPowers there for a minute. Weird conspiracy theories are his thing.

My best guess is that some knucklehead airmen thought this would look neat and opened his darn mouth.

[Speakit]

thats what your good conduct medal consists of? Coming to work on time?

You know as well as I that it doesn't solely consist of just that, but I can guarantee that if you don't go to work you won't get it.

[Stang5150]

With the new PT Patch will we also get the self-satisfying smirk on our faces issued to us as well? :cool:

[BTDTNM]

I can see it now. Someone gets dinged for 'bad form' on their pushups. Then we will start video taping the PT test so we can run the instant replay later! Where's my red flag???

[Luke]

Test looks easier to me, with the new scale I go from a score of 79 to an 88. As for the video taping of the fitness test, don't laugh. I've heard that Buckley AFB already does that...

[schwag_guest]

I could see that conversation:

Hawk Contractor: Congratulations, you scored a 91.25!
NCO: SHIT! Son of a biscuit!
HC: You thought you did better?
NCO: No, now I have to wear that stupid-ass patch. What am I, a friggin' 9-year old Cub Scout?
HC: Oh...I see. I think.
NCO: Look, this might seem a little odd or unethical, but could you fudge my numbers a bit?
HC: Let me get this straight: you want me to make it look like you scored...less?
NCO: Could you do that? That would be GREAT!


Creased and starched ABU's: check
Shiny suede ABU boots: check
EXCELLENT patch on PT uniform: missing

Well...no 5 for him!

[Bumble78]

When they release the patch designs we need some one to make a Sponsored by Krispy Kreme Patch that closely resembles it.

Also they need to hand out trophys for people that dont pass.
http://www.instructables.com/files/deriv/FTO/O1QT/F4BI0BDS/FTOO1QTF4BI0BDS.MEDIUM.jpg

[VFFSSGT]

I just love how the Air Force "solves" problems... :rolleyes:

All of the short-comings of the AF's PT program and their answer is implement additional policies, regulations, and shift testing from one individual to another. The last program was crap and this one will be too.

In the mean time, we will still have members who do not get sufficient PT time courtesy of their commanders, still have the same members willing to falsify PT scores for friends still working [unpunished] for the Air Force, and members continually loosing faith in the AF leadership.

[ART]

Test looks easier to me, with the new scale I go from a score of 79 to an 88. As for the video taping of the fitness test, don't laugh. I've heard that Buckley AFB already does that...

It is easier to pass, I'll grant you that, but it's a lot harder to ace.

[ason42]

Oh the fun never ends with the USAF and its uniforms, procurement and fitness schemes. I remember when the bicycle test came about in the early 90's. Scientifically proven to show 'true' fitness. Amazing really, designed by a female doctor and all. Amazing cause guys who actually ran and worked out regularly couldn't pass it and those who smoked, never exercised with any regularity, etc somehow aced the darn thing. Interesting really...

[takthekak]

Got this down the chain, it originated from CMSAF Roy and has some good info.

AIR FORCE FITNESS PROGRAM QUESTIONS & ANSWERS
(As of 19 Aug 09)

1. Why did the Air Force revise the Air Force Fitness Program?
Answer: CMSAF McKinley requested an Air Force Audit (summer 2008) and it clearly revealed the fitness program needed significant improvement.

2. What did the Air Force Fitness Audit reveal?
Answer: Commanders did not consistently take action for members not meeting fitness standards and did not properly implement fitness testing – Unit programs did not engender a “culture of fitness”

3. When will the new Fitness Program be effective?
Answer: The revised program will take effect 1 Jan 2010.

4. What is the CSAF’s vision and expectation of a new and improved Fitness Program?
Answer: A fitness program that is: Clear, understandable, and much simpler. He expects a new fitness program supporting a year-round fitness culture, providing visible score increases for improved performance, and a clear message that health and fitness are directly related to mission accomplishment. Airmen should incorporate a “year-around culture of fitness” into their daily lives.

5. I never have to run a mile and half in combat, and the enemy doesn’t care how big my waist is. Why didn’t the AF adopt a combat-performance test?
Answer: This was never the intention in revising the fitness program. The intention was to design a science-based test that incorporates health-based standards across all fitness components. Our goal in revising the program was to motivate Airmen to improve their health and fitness by rewarding incremental improvement and moving them from Unsat to Sat and from Sat to Excellent, thereby reducing their health risk both now and in the future. The next generation of AF fitness program may incorporate AFSC-specific requirements and combat-type activities, but that may be several years in the future.

6. Will Airmen test more than once a year?
Answer: Yes. Each Airman will test twice a year – some AF Reserve and ANG personnel will test once a year.

7. When will twice-a-year fitness testing cycles begin?
Answer: The CSAF mandated all Airmen will fitness test during the first half of calendar year 2010. Airmen will be required to test before the end of the month in which they are due. For example:
• If your last test was 5 Jan 09, your next test will be in Jan 10 to begin your 6 month cycle, then again in Jul 10, etc.
• If your last test was 2 Mar 09, your next test will be in Mar 10 to begin your 6 month cycle, then again in Sep 10, etc.
• If your last test was 7 Jul 09, your next test will be in Jan 10 to begin your 6 month cycle, then again in Jul 10, etc.
• If you test 15 Sep 09, you will test again in Mar 10 to begin your 6 month cycle, then again in Sep 10, etc.
• If you test 29 Dec 09, you will test again in Jun 10 to begin your 6 month cycle, then again in Dec 10, etc.

8. The other services run longer distances and allow more time for pushups and situps. Why didn’t the AF change these aspects of the test to be more in line with the other services?
Answer: We could have increase running distance to 2 or 3 miles, and changed the pushup and situp times to 2 minutes instead of 1 minute. However, all we would have gotten was a longer test. Consensus among fitness experts indicates that we can adequately gauge a member’s fitness with a 1 ½ mile run and 1 minute each of pushups and situps.

9. Who maintains the sole responsibility to meet and maintain Air Force fitness standards?
Answer: Each Airman is responsible for meeting and maintaining fitness standards. Commanders have the responsibility of their unit fitness program. The new fitness AFI will more clearly emphasize each Airman’s responsibility to meet and maintain fitness standards.

10. Who will conduct fitness tests and where will the program be administered?
Answer: Trained civilian employees will conduct fitness tests. The fitness program will be administered at new centrally located Fitness Assessment Cells (FAC). For GSUs or other locations with less than 1K military members, members may travel to the closest base with a FAC (commander discretion) or Physical Training Leaders and/or Unit Fitness Program Managers will continue to administer the test at the GSU location.

11. Why did the Air Force create Fitness Assessment Cells (FAC)?
Answer: To reduce administrative burden on squadrons and maximize objectivity in testing.

12. Will the component weighing on the fitness test change? If so, why?
Answer: Yes. The aerobic run will account for 60% and body composition 20% -- muscle fitness (crunches and pushups) will remain 10% each. The component weighing was changed to incorporate science-based criterion along the health/fitness hierarchy. As an indication of overall fitness, Aerobic > Body Composition > Muscle Fitness.

13. Will there be minimum requirements for each fitness test component to pass the test?
Answer: Yes, Airmen will be required to meet minimum component requirements and will still be required to have a composite score of 75 to pass the test. This ensures we have a more well-rounded test and that members must demonstrate a minimum level of proficiency in all components to pass the test.

14. How were the minimum requirements for each component determined?
Answer: For the aerobic and body composition (abdominal circumference) components, the minimum is established at the cut line between moderate and high health risk associated with that component. We want members to avoid the high health risk region in order to pass the test. For pushups and situps, the minimums were established at the 50th and 60th percentiles, respectively, for performance among the entire U.S. population based on widely-accepted fitness data.

15. Will the SG community continue to have ownership of the Fitness Program?
Answer: No. AF/A1 now is the OPR for the Fitness Program, but will continue to partner with the SG community in regards to the health aspects of overall fitness.

16. When will the new fitness AFI be published to the field?
Answer: The target is August 2009.

17. Will the Air Force Fitness Management System (AFFMS) continue to support the Air Force Fitness Program?
Answer: Yes. The system will be enhanced to provide detailed, “dynamic” feedback on fitness results with the goal to help Airmen improve in targeted areas.

18. Will the 5-year age groupings change?
Answer: Yes. Age groupings will change to 10-year groups (< 30, 30-39, 40-49, 50-59, and 60+). These changes are science based and more simple.

19. Will there be new commander guidance on administrative actions for failed fitness tests?
Answer: Yes. Commanders will now be allowed to take administrative action for first time failures if they feel it’s warranted. The commander will be given an available options table in the Fitness AFI to provide clear guidance and focus on recommended actions based on number of failed tests.

20. I’ve heard that there will be “random” or “no-notice” fitness tests. Is that true?
Answer: No, that is not true. Members will be required to test twice a year. However, members may require an “out of cycle” test in order to ensure currency for a deployment, assignment, etc. Commanders may institute “practice” or “diagnostic” tests in order to gauge a member’s progress, but such a test will not be counted as an “official” test or entered into AF FMS for documentation purposes. Members will always know when their next scheduled test is required.

21. How will the CSAF keep fitness on his radar and as a top priority?
Answer: Fitness metrics will be reported in regular increments from unit to wing to MAJCOM.

22. In what other ways will the Air Force measure fitness compliance?
Answer: We will incorporate fitness into the IG arena in future Unit Compliance Inspections (UCI). This will ensure overall compliance in the administration and execution of the fitness program, not whether all members in a unit or wing can pass the test.

23. Can an Airman have a documented failed fitness test as of the close out date of their evaluation and still receive an overall “5” EPR?
Answer: No. The revised AFI 36-2406, “Officer and Enlisted Evaluation Systems” will ensure no Airmen with a referral report (for fitness or other reasons) will receive an overall “5” rating.

24. How will other personnel actions be affected by a member’s fitness category?
Answer: Officers and enlisted members will be required to have a passing, current fitness score to be selected for or attend PME. All members must have a current fitness test in order to deploy. There are other restrictions regarding retraining, reenlistment eligibility, and assignment eligibility that could be impacted by a failed fitness score, especially if such a score results in a referral OPR or EPR. The appropriate AFIs will be updated to reflect the impact fitness results have on these personnel programs.

25. Will commanders still be required to provide fitness time during duty-hours?
Answer: Commanders will continue to emphasize the importance of fitness and provide Airmen fitness time during duty hours when mission permits, but will no longer be mandated by AFI-248 to allocate fitness time during “traditional” duty hours. Again, it is every Airman’s responsibility to achieve and maintain AF Fitness standards.

26. Will the new program allow Airmen who fail a fitness test to retest prior to 42 days?
Answer: Yes. The current rule which mandates a 42-day waiting period following a failed fitness test will be eliminated. With the new program, with Commander approval Airmen may volunteer to retest prior to the 42-day period if they are medically able and ready to test.

27. What fitness categories will be used?
Answer: Since fitness is a readiness issue, the AF will use ORI/UCI-type scoring categories to reflect members’ results. Excellent (> 90.0), Satisfactory (75.0 – 89.9), and Unsatisfactory (< 75.0) will replace the current categories of Excellent, Good, and Poor.

28. Will there be any incentives for members who clearly demonstrate fitness excellence?
Answer: Yes. Patches are being designed for wear on the PT uniform. Patches will recognize both one-time and sustained (four consecutive tests over 2 years) performance in the Excellent category (composite score of > 90), and for scoring a perfect 100.

29. What if I have a profile that prevents me from doing one or more components of the test?
Answer: The AF will no longer use the ergo cycle or the 3-mile walk as alternate aerobic tests. Instead, members who cannot run based on a profile will perform a 1-mile walk that will determine VO2 max capability. Also, if member is exempt from any component, members will only be categorized as “pass” or “fail”.

Very good info...some strange things...I think it's a mistake to pull the 3x a week for PT
out of the AFI...Also, if you fail the PT, you will not get a 5, even if you are the number 1 guy
in your career field for the AF...Lastly...funny to me that if you are exempt in an area, then it
becomes only a PASS/FAIL and you don't get to play the "excellent/patch" game...
I am not sure why the whole program is not a PASS/FAILL, which would match the
EPR...anyways...I have 4 100's and a 99.5 in the past and got a tshirt...I could care
less about a patch...They might as well admit there is no incentive to ace the PT test
and just go to 0-69: Fail, 70-100: Pass...move on

[CrustySMSgt]

How much you want to bet that the PT patch for Excellent will be mandatory?


I'll go one better... I bet it'll be the first patch authorized on the ABU :eek: ;)


I can see it now. Someone gets dinged for 'bad form' on their pushups. Then we will start video taping the PT test so we can run the instant replay later! Where's my red flag???

When the briefed the centralized testing here to my CC, that was included in the brief. They pulled it before execution.


Creased and starched ABU's: check
Shiny suede ABU boots: check
EXCELLENT patch on PT uniform: missing

Well...no 5 for him!

Get this... one of the guys on the Honor Guard with me said his brother is on the flightline at Luke, where they are testing the new boots. One option of a Corafram green boot. YGTBSM! :eek: :( :rolleyes:



Amazing really, designed by a female doctor and all.

WHat does the fact that it was a female doctor have to do with anything? :confused:


Very good info...some strange things...I think it's a mistake to pull the 3x a week for PT
out of the AFI...Also, if you fail the PT, you will not get a 5, even if you are the number 1 guy
in your career field for the AF...Lastly...funny to me that if you are exempt in an area, then it
becomes only a PASS/FAIL and you don't get to play the "excellent/patch" game...
I am not sure why the whole program is not a PASS/FAILL, which would match the
EPR...anyways...I have 4 100's and a 99.5 in the past and got a tshirt...I could care
less about a patch...They might as well admit there is no incentive to ace the PT test
and just go to 0-69: Fail, 70-100: Pass...move on

I'm sure the EPR form will change to reflect the new scoring soon enough...

They got rid of the 3x a week because there is no way operational units could make it work. So to get rid of one of the most used defenses when discharged (CC didn't provide time for PT), they not put the responsibility directly on the member.

[fufu]

They got rid of the 3x a week because there is no way operational units could make it work. So to get rid of one of the most used defenses when discharged (CC didn't provide time for PT), they not put the responsibility directly on the member.

I think this is a mistake.....and completely unfair to the member. I'm actually shocked that they took it out. I expected it to remain mandatory and possibly be more clear about what was expected from squadrons regarding PT.

[CrustySMSgt]

I think this is a mistake.....and completely unfair to the member. I'm actually shocked that they took it out. I expected it to remain mandatory and possibly be more clear about what was expected from squadrons regarding PT.

WHile I agree in theory, when you have units on sustained 12 hour shifts that can't shut down ops to do PT, how do you make it happen? Command Post controllers are on 12s, and manning is so bad there is often no back office to relieve them to go do PT, working 4 days on and 2 days off. No way to add 1.5-2 hours to their duty day to do PT.

[takthekak]

WHile I agree in theory, when you have units on sustained 12 hour shifts that can't shut down ops to do PT, how do you make it happen? Command Post controllers are on 12s, and manning is so bad there is often no back office to relieve them to go do PT, working 4 days on and 2 days off. No way to add 1.5-2 hours to their duty day to do PT.

Respectfully, I think this is a situation where it's better to have but not need it, rather
than need and not have it...I know there were a lot of CCs who used this AFI and
gave their units 3x a week, just become some can't does not mean you scrap
the whole show and put the responisbility "on the individual"
which is the way it used to be years ago and that didn't work so good.
Maybe they should return to annual weighins, TDY weighins, PME weighins
and promotion weighins.
I have taken part in video teleconferences with ACC, with G.O.;s on attendance from
maintenance career field and they gave guidance to give people 3X a week for PT
and not just make their days longer. Bottom line, if the AFI didn't work and G.O.
guidance didn't work, nothing will work.
I know that many people will now be moving the 3x per week back into their personal
time and their families will be feeling that affect.
I came in right before the bike test and they are still tinkering with it. I mean come on, first
they wanted it to add points for WAPS testing and after it got feed through the screw filter,
they decided when you pass you get no points or help for the EPR or WAPS, but if you
fail, it's now a referral and your screwed.
The last CMSAF had this program in his scope, but didn't get arounf to it. I mean if 97% (?)
of the air force passed their PT, why do the audit and change it. It's the old "people are doing
too good, make it harder..." and then when they do no one is prepared for all the baggage with it,
ie lower EPRs, less decorations, etc etc...Maybe I am just over reading this...
Lastly, I finally saw what someone else was talking about, how you can "'pass" all the areas, but when you add up all the minimum passing scores, you fail...I think it's a great metaphor for this whole deal.

[fufu]

Respectfully, I think this is a situation where it's better to have but not need it, rather than need and not have it...I know there were a lot of CCs who used this AFI and gave their units 3x a week, just become some can't does not mean you scrap the whole show and put the responisbility "on the individual"

Gotta agree with ya here.

This is like the AF says, everyone will go to college, but we aren't going to pay for it or give you any duty hours to complete it.

[FCMVP#30]

If they want you to go above the minimum..they should make that new "what they want you to do" the minimum to pass.....

Makes absolutley no sense that you can pass every indiividual section and still not pass the test, also makes no sense that you can have a passing score and still not pass....

This entire "problem" could have been solves with just saying 'ok, from now on you take the current PT Test twice a year"...would have taken 10 minutes..problem solved...instead we spend millions on research to come up with THIS!?!?!??!

If only tax payers could ask for refunds.............

If you want me to wear 37 pieces of flare then make the minimum 37 pieces of flare!

[VFFSSGT]

If they want you to go above the minimum..they should make that new "what they want you to do" the minimum to pass.....

Makes absolutley no sense that you can pass every indiividual section and still not pass the test, also makes no sense that you can have a passing score and still not pass....

This entire "problem" could have been solves with just saying 'ok, from now on you take the current PT Test twice a year"...would have taken 10 minutes..problem solved...instead we spend millions on research to come up with THIS!?!?!??!

If only tax payers could ask for refunds.............

I did not even take the time to add those minimums up; I already know it is going to fail just like the last one...quite an interesting an excellent point though.

I do take issue with the minimums in that you can pass the test but fail. This is the Air Force's refusal to accept that one size does not fill all. Why even have points for numbers below the minimum?

I would definitely be asking for my refund.

[Smeghead]

Get this... one of the guys on the Honor Guard with me said his brother is on the flightline at Luke, where they are testing the new boots. One option of a Corafram green boot. YGTBSM! :eek: :( :rolleyes:

They sell them at Kunsan

[DHarris75]

I do take issue with the minimums in that you can pass the test but fail. This is the Air Force's refusal to accept that one size does not fill all. Why even have points for numbers below the minimum?


I thought about that myself. Why have points for below minimums?

I get that you can do just the minumums and fail. They are saying you don't HAVE to be a track star - but if you aren't, you better be able to crank out some pushups/situps. Not saying everyone has to be thin - but if you aren't, you need to be able to run.

Look at someone in the 30 yr age group. If you were just a minimum in each category - then that says you are a bigger guy (39"), can only run a 14:00, can only manage 27 pushpus, and can only do 39 situps. If that is you - you need some work and your score is only a 62.

Now, if you are say a bigger guy (39") but can run a 12:24...and can only manage 27 pushups but crank out 44 situps - than you are a 75.1.

I think that is about right. If you are bigger, than already you are behind the power curve - but you can make it up by running faster and doing decent at one of the strength categories. But if you are big AND can't run AND can't do pushups/situps - than that is a problem.

So many big guys say "I can't run fast - but I'm strong as an ox". Well, prove it. You don't have to run fast if you are strong. Everyone brings something diff to the fight.
So I think minimums are good - you at least have to run a minimum pace. But at the same time, if you are a minimum in one area, you need to be good at another...and that is the opposite of one size fits all.

[CrustySMSgt]

They sell them at Kunsan

If the non-suede boots are still in testing, they aren't authorized for wear... are they?


Respectfully, I think this is a situation where it's better to have but not need it, rather
than need and not have it...I know there were a lot of CCs who used this AFI and
gave their units 3x a week, just become some can't does not mean you scrap
the whole show and put the responisbility "on the individual"


I'll give you there should be some strong "suggestion" that CC's continue to provide duty time in the AFI and command policy... but the bottom line is, those who CAN'T get duty time to do it do have a comeback when they fail, that the AFI requires them to get the time they don't. And then of course the much less important whine factor of "they get to do it and we don't." When the AFPC "road show" came through town, I did ask the question regarding factoring PT into your manpower standard, and when were we going to be allowed to count those manpower hours towards our manning. The COL said it was already something he had done at his previous unit... so remember when you're doing manpower reviews, to include PT time... but of course now the issue will be, if it isn't required, just "highly encouraged" will we be allowed to use those hours?


I thought about that myself. Why have points for below minimums?

I get that you can do just the minumums and fail. They are saying you don't HAVE to be a track star - but if you aren't, you better be able to crank out some pushups/situps. Not saying everyone has to be thin - but if you aren't, you need to be able to run.

So many big guys say "I can't run fast - but I'm strong as an ox". Well, prove it. You don't have to run fast if you are strong. Everyone brings something diff to the fight.
So I think minimums are good - you at least have to run a minimum pace. But at the same time, if you are a minimum in one area, you need to be good at another...and that is the opposite of one size fits all.

Doesn't take a math najor to figure out the run is where you make your money... at 60% of the entire test, you've got to score well there. Sure you can make up a few points in strength... but if you can't run, you're screwed. I certainly understand there are some with medical issues that make it difficult, but if you're excuse is, "I don't like to run" or "it hurts when I run" (unconfirmed by medical diagnosis and more likely caused by NOT RUNNING), then you better start hitting the track and getting that run time down... because it is what it is at this point. There ain't gonna be an "I don't wanna tuck in my boot" revolution to save you!

I did ask my Army guy; their program is set up so the minimum score in each catagaory does equate to the minimum passing score on the whole shebang. Maybe whoever made this decision was tired of people bitching about us copying them... see, be careful what you ask for! :tongue:

[DHarris75]

That was my problem with the test before. I would run slow and then max out pushups/situps to pass. Now I worked on my run time and got it down into the low 12s so I now I don't have to worry. The easiest way to pass is to run faster.

I see both sides of the minimum argument. But I think I like the weighted score better.

[BadBender]

When my (and many of you on here) EPR is written, it is written by a trained NCO. Some one that has completed ALS or NCOA and maybe SNCOA, if not the CMSgt school. That EPR determines my promotion eligibility for the next few years depending on the rate I earn in their eyes. Now I have to factor in what some, supposedly trained civilian says. If they say I did x amount of pushups and crunches then it is so. If they say my waist size is x then it is also so. I don’t see where you can dispute the run time much so I left that out. So, in effect, do I now have two supervisors I need to please? Can I satisfy my military supervisor yet displease my civilian one? One or the other can make an EPR a referral right?

I wonder then, will there be a situation where one civilian PT counter will count some pushups and not others for some people while he/she counts the same as good for others based off of personal relationships?
What I am getting at is I am at a familiar base. Many people here attend a particular Church. It is well known in the local area and they tend to “take care of their own”. I would hope the trained NCO would put that aside and do as they were trained yet I wonder about the civilians that might be hired to count simple things like pushups and crunches. If my career is on the line they sign how do I (or you) approach that? Is video tape enough, it there another measurement factor involved?

[technomage1]

WHile I agree in theory, when you have units on sustained 12 hour shifts that can't shut down ops to do PT, how do you make it happen? Command Post controllers are on 12s, and manning is so bad there is often no back office to relieve them to go do PT, working 4 days on and 2 days off. No way to add 1.5-2 hours to their duty day to do PT.

Yes, there is. It's called more manning. If PT is supposed to be part of our mission, then we need to be manned to do our mission - during our regular duty hours.

[CrustySMSgt]

I wonder then, will there be a situation where one civilian PT counter will count some pushups and not others for some people while he/she counts the same as good for others based off of personal relationships?

Not to appear to endorse civilian testers not doing the right thing... but in the grand scheme of things, given the demonstrated lack of integrity in the system across the board, if the end result is there are only a couple people getting hooked up at a base instead of dozens... it still makes for a more accurate assessment.

It would be tough to be a tester... because you are expected to remain inpartial to the entire bases population... so you can't in theory develop relationships with those you'll be evaluating. Hopefully they'll at least concentrate on sticking ot having in shape people as friends... because the first time a perceived "fat guy" gets passed by their friend the fitness cell guy, it's gonna be ugly... lol

[Shrike]

I think this is a mistake.....and completely unfair to the member. I'm actually shocked that they took it out. I expected it to remain mandatory and possibly be more clear about what was expected from squadrons regarding PT.

The hard choice would be for senior leadership to MAKE commanders follow the AFI.

The easy choice is to say "screw it, put the onus on the member even if they work 12-13 hour shifts".


And our leadership chose...

[DHarris75]

You know what - I've changed my mind. I do think it was a mistake to take the verbage out of the AFI mandating unit time toward fitness.

Someone equated it to education. You are expected to get a degree - not required. You will not get kicked out for not getting your degree. You don't even have to get a CCAF - you won't make E-8...but neither does 97% of the AF. The degree (whatever level) supposedly sets you a part because you took time out of YOUR time to do it (well, you are SUPPOSE to).

You will get KICKED out for not passing your PT test. Therefore, since it is a requirement - you should be mandated PT time during your duty day. If mission does not permit - we need to look at our mission and manning and adjust. Maybe we don't fly as many training sorties...whatever. Something has to give. We can't do MORE with less - you do LESS with less.

The AF has written this as a CYA. It's not OUR fault...it's on YOU to pass. On one hand the PT is the MOST important thing on your EPR. The ONLY thing that is pass/fail AND generates and auto referral. You can get a DUI and if you are aces everywhere else, you could still end up with a non-referral EPR.

So one hand, it's the MOST important thing - an instant career killer. On the other hand, the AF says it's not important enough to adjust manning or mission for. Which is it?

[BlueLabRat]

AF senior leadership just uncourageously or selfishly failed current and future generations of Airmen; again.

A safe, modest, or un-dynamic PT program change with a glaring step backwards was the easy path to travel. Fading away from mandated, dedicated AFI directed duty time for fundamental military PT was a mistake.

Not developing new job standards for all that addressed PT and long term perpetually planned workloads with built-in, formal PT duty time was a traditional “lets get serious” hype yet low risk wimp out move. This was a much anticipated, golden opportunity to once and for all go for it, reach for the stars, re-write the books, clean slate, break from tradition, step out and really change AF culture for the long term good.

Sadly not to be. Just another shallow typical half hearted, on paper, focus on enforcement vs. substance, AF PT era like all those that proceeded.

By making leaders at all subordinate levels less accountable to factor in where it counts at the local unit level PT into the daily duty equation any hope to create a more useful program just lost its proactive positive momentum.

“They” once again just dumped a mandated standard back on the individual and pulled the carpet out from the one only core AF wide, common to all program that was slowing building local, MAJCOM, and USAF wide standardization at something.

[CrustySMSgt]

You know what - I've changed my mind. I do think it was a mistake to take the verbage out of the AFI mandating unit time toward fitness.

Someone equated it to education. You are expected to get a degree - not required. You will not get kicked out for not getting your degree. You don't even have to get a CCAF - you won't make E-8...but neither does 97% of the AF. The degree (whatever level) supposedly sets you a part because you took time out of YOUR time to do it (well, you are SUPPOSE to).

You will get KICKED out for not passing your PT test. Therefore, since it is a requirement - you should be mandated PT time during your duty day. If mission does not permit - we need to look at our mission and manning and adjust. Maybe we don't fly as many training sorties...whatever. Something has to give. We can't do MORE with less - you do LESS with less.

The AF has written this as a CYA. It's not OUR fault...it's on YOU to pass. On one hand the PT is the MOST important thing on your EPR. The ONLY thing that is pass/fail AND generates and auto referral. You can get a DUI and if you are aces everywhere else, you could still end up with a non-referral EPR.

So one hand, it's the MOST important thing - an instant career killer. On the other hand, the AF says it's not important enough to adjust manning or mission for. Which is it?

Just to play Devil's Advocate... another option could be that the reason is that most unit PT programs, even those doing it regularly 3 times a week barely keep a person at "maintanence workouts", instead of being intense enough to actually improve fitness... so instead of supporting an ineffective program, they put it back on the member to do what THEY need to suceed, instead of wasting their time shooting at center mass. Just throwing it out there <ducking & running... lol>

I wonder what it will say about those who are poor fit and currently required to work out 4-5 times a day? Still give them duty time, since they obviously need supervison?

[DHarris75]

I would say at least mandate the CC give duty time - even if it is not unit PT (although I support unit led PT). I would also say that if PT programs are not challenging - than that too could be addressed at the local level. I know our PT is challenging and we include running up a 4 mile cliff, ruck marches, and long runs. But I agree that not every unit follows suit (my last unit is one that needs to read this thread).

But I would at least say that the AFI should mandate duty time toward PT.

Of course - unit PT is usually just a foundation. Even our PT. With our long runs and 3X a week PT - we have 2 more days with PT time built in (5 days a week) where you work out on your on and then report to work at 0900. So on those 2 days, I work on speed work.

I don't think you remove the onus on the AF because unit CCs are not consistent with PT programs. I think you fix the programs. Wing CCs should take a higher interest in how their units are conducting PT. If they are not up to snuff, then the CCs should be held accountable. I'm not saying that is the CCs fault if you fail - but the program should mandate the tools you need to meet the AF requirement. To fix planes - you need tools. To be physically ready for the mission you need time - duty time.

[CrustySMSgt]

I would say at least mandate the CC give duty time - even if it is not unit PT (although I support unit led PT). I would also say that if PT programs are not challenging - than that too could be addressed at the local level. I know our PT is challenging and we include running up a 4 mile cliff, ruck marches, and long runs. But I agree that not every unit follows suit (my last unit is one that needs to read this thread).

But I would at least say that the AFI should mandate duty time toward PT.

Of course - unit PT is usually just a foundation. Even our PT. With our long runs and 3X a week PT - we have 2 more days with PT time built in (5 days a week) where you work out on your on and then report to work at 0900. So on those 2 days, I work on speed work.

I don't think you remove the onus on the AF because unit CCs are not consistent with PT programs. I think you fix the programs. Wing CCs should take a higher interest in how their units are conducting PT. If they are not up to snuff, then the CCs should be held accountable. I'm not saying that is the CCs fault if you fail - but the program should mandate the tools you need to meet the AF requirement. To fix planes - you need tools. To be physically ready for the mission you need time - duty time.

you got my vote

[VFFSSGT]

I thought about that myself. Why have points for below minimums?

I get that you can do just the minumums and fail. They are saying you don't HAVE to be a track star - but if you aren't, you better be able to crank out some pushups/situps. Not saying everyone has to be thin - but if you aren't, you need to be able to run.

Look at someone in the 30 yr age group. If you were just a minimum in each category - then that says you are a bigger guy (39"), can only run a 14:00, can only manage 27 pushpus, and can only do 39 situps. If that is you - you need some work and your score is only a 62.

Now, if you are say a bigger guy (39") but can run a 12:24...and can only manage 27 pushups but crank out 44 situps - than you are a 75.1.

I think that is about right. If you are bigger, than already you are behind the power curve - but you can make it up by running faster and doing decent at one of the strength categories. But if you are big AND can't run AND can't do pushups/situps - than that is a problem.

So many big guys say "I can't run fast - but I'm strong as an ox". Well, prove it. You don't have to run fast if you are strong. Everyone brings something diff to the fight.
So I think minimums are good - you at least have to run a minimum pace. But at the same time, if you are a minimum in one area, you need to be good at another...and that is the opposite of one size fits all.

It is going to be interesting to see the mass failures between centralized testing and the minimum scores. I am a thin guy and have always had problems getting to even 40 much less 42 sit-ups in a minute, but do quite well in every other area. But the minimum for push-ups is only 33. For some reason I believe they got that backwards. Now I am going to have to work my tail off just to make a minimum... :confused: I am all for good fitness but this just took it to another level of ridiculous - like I already said the last program was a failure and this one will be too.

[technomage1]

I would say at least mandate the CC give duty time - even if it is not unit PT (although I support unit led PT). I would also say that if PT programs are not challenging - than that too could be addressed at the local level. I know our PT is challenging and we include running up a 4 mile cliff, ruck marches, and long runs. But I agree that not every unit follows suit (my last unit is one that needs to read this thread).

But I would at least say that the AFI should mandate duty time toward PT.

Of course - unit PT is usually just a foundation. Even our PT. With our long runs and 3X a week PT - we have 2 more days with PT time built in (5 days a week) where you work out on your on and then report to work at 0900. So on those 2 days, I work on speed work.

I don't think you remove the onus on the AF because unit CCs are not consistent with PT programs. I think you fix the programs. Wing CCs should take a higher interest in how their units are conducting PT. If they are not up to snuff, then the CCs should be held accountable. I'm not saying that is the CCs fault if you fail - but the program should mandate the tools you need to meet the AF requirement. To fix planes - you need tools. To be physically ready for the mission you need time - duty time.

Nicely put.

[blacksheep1208]

I would say at least mandate the CC give duty time - even if it is not unit PT (although I support unit led PT). I would also say that if PT programs are not challenging - than that too could be addressed at the local level. I know our PT is challenging and we include running up a 4 mile cliff, ruck marches, and long runs. But I agree that not every unit follows suit (my last unit is one that needs to read this thread).

But I would at least say that the AFI should mandate duty time toward PT.

Of course - unit PT is usually just a foundation. Even our PT. With our long runs and 3X a week PT - we have 2 more days with PT time built in (5 days a week) where you work out on your on and then report to work at 0900. So on those 2 days, I work on speed work.

I don't think you remove the onus on the AF because unit CCs are not consistent with PT programs. I think you fix the programs. Wing CCs should take a higher interest in how their units are conducting PT. If they are not up to snuff, then the CCs should be held accountable. I'm not saying that is the CCs fault if you fail - but the program should mandate the tools you need to meet the AF requirement. To fix planes - you need tools. To be physically ready for the mission you need time - duty time.

They'll mandate it the way the Army does, before work. I'd rather do it on my own time after work than be told to come in at 0500 for PT.

[DHarris75]

I was at Ft Gordon for 3 years and yes - they did do PT early in the AM before what we would call the duty day. But in reality - it wasn't MORE work. After PT, they'd go home and shower and get breakfast and be at work at 0900. (Side note - as an instructor, we also did PT early in the AM sharing the field with the ARMY units because we still had to teach X number of hours in a day...so PT was added to the day).

So really, yeah - they got up earlier - but they didn't work "more".

[RScog30219]

After the audit last year I thought that the Air Force had finally gotten serious about the PT program. Boy was I wrong! I have been told today that the new program makes it so the units no longer have to provide time for PT. How is this supposed to make the units embody a "Culture of Fitness?" I was under the impression that the reason we were altering the PT program was because the units were not doing the PT program. So to fix that leadership makes it even easier for them not to do the PT program. Now all they care about it the test. Sounds alot like the old Fat Boy program to me, but didn't that program fail as well? You would think by now leadership would know that if you leave fitness to the individual it simply will not be done. This is why we are the most overweight branch of service. Every other branch takes fitness seriously, but for some reason we try it then throw in the towel and say it can't be done. You can't tell me that our OP's tempo is higher than the Army, Navy, or Marines. Most of which are deploy much longer than we are. It is rediculous that we can't even get this one little thing right. Instead of setting the standard, leadership has surrendered and made us the laughing stock of the DOD. I used to be proud that the Air Force was taking a stand on fitness. Now, I can't even talked to my Marine brother without feeling like a hypocrite.

[bluejacket]

After the audit last year I thought that the Air Force had finally gotten serious about the PT program. Boy was I wrong! I have been told today that the new program makes it so the units no longer have to provide time for PT. How is this supposed to make the units embody a "Culture of Fitness?" I was under the impression that the reason we were altering the PT program was because the units were not doing the PT program. So to fix that leadership makes it even easier for them not to do the PT program. Now all they care about it the test. Sounds alot like the old Fat Boy program to me, but didn't that program fail as well? You would think by now leadership would know that if you leave fitness to the individual it simply will not be done. This is why we are the most overweight branch of service. Every other branch takes fitness seriously, but for some reason we try it then throw in the towel and say it can't be done. You can't tell me that our OP's tempo is higher than the Army, Navy, or Marines. Most of which are deploy much longer than we are. It is rediculous that we can't even get this one little thing right. Instead of setting the standard, leadership has surrendered and made us the laughing stock of the DOD. I used to be proud that the Air Force was taking a stand on fitness. Now, I can't even talked to my Marine brother without feeling like a hypocrite.

Apparently, you are comparing the Air Force members to the recruiting posters of the other services. Get a grip on reality. We are not the most overweight branch of the military services.

[DHarris75]

Now, I can't even talked to my Marine brother without feeling like a hypocrite.

I think that is part of the problem right there. Don't worry about what the other services think of us. If you wanted to be a Marine then you should of joined the Marines.

I had the choice (as we all did). I listened to all the recruiters and made my choice. I wasn't Marine material - didn't want to be in the ARMY - and didn't like the idea of being on a NAVY ship for 6 mos at a time.

I knew I wasn't Marine material. That was a conscious choice. My ex brother-in-law thought he was a Marine and made fun of me & the AF blue (4 years younger than me). He didn't make it through basic. I know who I am - Air Force. We are not nor will be...nor should be...on the same physical level as the Marines/ARMY.

I don't feel ashamed by that one bit. We have a diff mission, a diff culture, and I think we have actually lost a bit of that because of people trying to compare us to the other branches. I don't care how we compare - it's comparing apples and oranges. Just because we are all military - doesn't make us the same. If we were suppose to be the same - there would be no need for seperate branches.

We agree that IF the AF says PT is THAT important (which it has)- that we should be given the tools. We differ on the "why". You are worried about how we are perceived. I am worried that the AF is conflicting itself.

Personally - I don't think PT is as important as the AF is making it. I didn't say it is NOT important - I said it's not AS important. To me, I don't think you should be able to kill a career off of one test (fail just prior to EPR...referral EPR / no test / probably killed chance at E-8). PT is and should be a standard - but no more/less than any other. How many officers put their hands in their hands in their pockets? How many units do not fully comply with their ruling AFIs? But we follow 10-248 to extreme. Especially when it comes to disciplinary actions for failing.

You should have to pass the test or you get kicked out. But I think the AF should be more about helping the individual get into shape vs looking for the quickest way to kick the person out. And it seems like now the CCs can apply personnel actions for 1 failed test if warranted...it seems the AF actually streamlined the line from failing to civilian. It took me 2 years to kick someone out for being a dirtbag (late to work, no initiative, no care). 2 years the leadership kept giving him a 2nd chance at all levels (flight CC, Section CC, sq CC, even Wing CC). Finally, he was given the boot...the Wing CC was actually considering another chance (new Wing CC) when the individual left his gun (registered) in his dorm room instead of the base armory - found on a surprise room inspection. That is what it took to kick this guy out.

But had he failed his PT test, I could have had him on the street in less than a year...and that time is shrinking.

But I support my AF. Right now - PT is that important - I have conformed and gotten better (and working on getting even better). But I just have heartburn with the conflicting statement - it is THAT important...but we aren't adjusting manning/mission for it.

[Capt Alfredo]

After the audit last year I thought that the Air Force had finally gotten serious about the PT program. Boy was I wrong! I have been told today that the new program makes it so the units no longer have to provide time for PT. How is this supposed to make the units embody a "Culture of Fitness?" I was under the impression that the reason we were altering the PT program was because the units were not doing the PT program. So to fix that leadership makes it even easier for them not to do the PT program. Now all they care about it the test. Sounds alot like the old Fat Boy program to me, but didn't that program fail as well? You would think by now leadership would know that if you leave fitness to the individual it simply will not be done. This is why we are the most overweight branch of service. Every other branch takes fitness seriously, but for some reason we try it then throw in the towel and say it can't be done. You can't tell me that our OP's tempo is higher than the Army, Navy, or Marines. Most of which are deploy much longer than we are. It is rediculous that we can't even get this one little thing right. Instead of setting the standard, leadership has surrendered and made us the laughing stock of the DOD. I used to be proud that the Air Force was taking a stand on fitness. Now, I can't even talked to my Marine brother without feeling like a hypocrite.

Funny, I was in Iraq for six months with two different BDEs and not once did I see any of them doing organized PT while deployed. Hmm, deployed for 15 months and no mando PT. On the other hand, they did still have to do their PT test on a half-ass "run the FOB" perimeter road. So there's a point for them. Since we're dealing in anecdotal evidence, I will say that there were plenty of Army fat-asses running around, too. Or not running, as the case may be.

[Mr. Happy]

Wonder what they'll do if mass failures across the whole AF start flowing when they implement this next year? Probably not the greatest way to retain people. Who wants to stick around after a referral EPR; especially a SNCO? Kiss of death depending where you are at in your career. It seems like they couldn't leave well enough alone with this PT program. I'm all for being in shape, and I feel the service has come a long way with fitness from my early years, but it seems like they want to raise the bar here just because enough people were not failing in the first place. Also, since there apparently won't be anymore unit PT time allocated/mandated, why even have the crap PT gear...just so we can have it every year or so for a deployment?

[R Shane Tucker]

Does the term fitness assesment cell mean were going to be running on a treadmill, or are we still running outside? I'm hoping that it will be on a treadmill that way its more fair to everyone. Also why can't we get extra credit for doing more pushups or situps than required? I think I speak for alot of other people, I am not a runner but I can bust out some pushups and situps.

[CrustySMSgt]

Does the term fitness assesment cell mean were going to be running on a treadmill, or are we still running outside? I'm hoping that it will be on a treadmill that way its more fair to everyone. Also why can't we get extra credit for doing more pushups or situps than required? I think I speak for alot of other people, I am not a runner but I can bust out some pushups and situps.

More fair? huh :confused:

The cell is the people... you will still run on whatever approved course your base uses

[VFFSSGT]

More fair? huh :confused:

The cell is the people... you will still run on whatever approved course your base uses

The more fair is, I believe, running on a controlled surface in an environmentally controlled room rather than the luck of the draw approach depending on the environment you are stationed in and surface that is "approved" by God knows who...

Then there are also those who can run on a treadmill [low-impact] but not on asphalt and/or concrete [high impact] due to duty related (or other) injuries that the AF medical system cannot seem to effectively diagnose much less treat.

Now, is everyone on a treadmill economical or feasible? Probably not, but niether is the injuries caused by improper 'training.' But, the AF could spend some money for some better outdoor running surfaces rather than more flat screen televisions to put in front of every treadmill and stairmaster in the gym...

[RScog30219]

Apparently, you are comparing the Air Force members to the recruiting posters of the other services. Get a grip on reality. We are not the most overweight branch of the military services.

You obviouly have not paid any attention to the Audit from last year. The Air Force PT program has been substantard for quite some time compared to our sister branches. That was the whole reason we revamped out program to begin with.

[RScog30219]

I think that is part of the problem right there. Don't worry about what the other services think of us. If you wanted to be a Marine then you should of joined the Marines.

I had the choice (as we all did). I listened to all the recruiters and made my choice. I wasn't Marine material - didn't want to be in the ARMY - and didn't like the idea of being on a NAVY ship for 6 mos at a time.

I knew I wasn't Marine material. That was a conscious choice. My ex brother-in-law thought he was a Marine and made fun of me & the AF blue (4 years younger than me). He didn't make it through basic. I know who I am - Air Force. We are not nor will be...nor should be...on the same physical level as the Marines/ARMY.

I don't feel ashamed by that one bit. We have a diff mission, a diff culture, and I think we have actually lost a bit of that because of people trying to compare us to the other branches. I don't care how we compare - it's comparing apples and oranges. Just because we are all military - doesn't make us the same. If we were suppose to be the same - there would be no need for seperate branches.

We agree that IF the AF says PT is THAT important (which it has)- that we should be given the tools. We differ on the "why". You are worried about how we are perceived. I am worried that the AF is conflicting itself.

Personally - I don't think PT is as important as the AF is making it. I didn't say it is NOT important - I said it's not AS important. To me, I don't think you should be able to kill a career off of one test (fail just prior to EPR...referral EPR / no test / probably killed chance at E-8). PT is and should be a standard - but no more/less than any other. How many officers put their hands in their hands in their pockets? How many units do not fully comply with their ruling AFIs? But we follow 10-248 to extreme. Especially when it comes to disciplinary actions for failing.

You should have to pass the test or you get kicked out. But I think the AF should be more about helping the individual get into shape vs looking for the quickest way to kick the person out. And it seems like now the CCs can apply personnel actions for 1 failed test if warranted...it seems the AF actually streamlined the line from failing to civilian. It took me 2 years to kick someone out for being a dirtbag (late to work, no initiative, no care). 2 years the leadership kept giving him a 2nd chance at all levels (flight CC, Section CC, sq CC, even Wing CC). Finally, he was given the boot...the Wing CC was actually considering another chance (new Wing CC) when the individual left his gun (registered) in his dorm room instead of the base armory - found on a surprise room inspection. That is what it took to kick this guy out.

But had he failed his PT test, I could have had him on the street in less than a year...and that time is shrinking.

But I support my AF. Right now - PT is that important - I have conformed and gotten better (and working on getting even better). But I just have heartburn with the conflicting statement - it is THAT important...but we aren't adjusting manning/mission for it.

I don't want to be apart of a different branch of service. I have been in the Air Force for 14 years, and I plan I staying in the Air Force. I have no problem passing my PT test. And I didn't need the Air Force to change its standard to comply with it.

The problem I have with the new program is it backs of of the standards it set in the first place. The program we have is not something a person can't comply with. There was no need to change the standards. The only thing that needed to be done was make the units responsible for failures.

People were not doing their tests and having fake numbers put into the system just to get a passing grade. That was the problem!

If you couldn't pass the test then you needed to make a choice. Either work out or get out. I don't think its that hard of a choice.

Taking the madatory duty hours PT time from the units is a mistake and I will not apologize for think so. When they made the PT results part of your EPR the supervisors automatically became responsible for your fitness developement. The excuse that it is the individuals responsibility to stay fit is just a means to shed the blame.

Instead of taking the time to make the units hold up their end of the deal. Leadership desided that its just easier not to make it mandatory. But still give you a referral on your EPR for not passing. You can't say fitness is important but then turn your back on your responsibility as a supervisor. And just so you know being a supervisor does not just stop at the immediate supervisor. That includes all individuals in the persons chain of command. They all have an impact on the individuals developement. And by changing this part of the AFI they have failed that member.

[RScog30219]

Funny, I was in Iraq for six months with two different BDEs and not once did I see any of them doing organized PT while deployed. Hmm, deployed for 15 months and no mando PT. On the other hand, they did still have to do their PT test on a half-ass "run the FOB" perimeter road. So there's a point for them. Since we're dealing in anecdotal evidence, I will say that there were plenty of Army fat-asses running around, too. Or not running, as the case may be.

That is funny cause I have been to Iraq and Afganistan. And at both locations they were performing PT. Not to mention most of them are deployed from a year to two years. But we can't seem find a way to allow our members to perform PT on duty hours here at home station. Not to mention most of the time we are only deployed for about 6 month with the exception of a few who are on 12 month tours. The OPs tempo is just not a good enough excuse for removing the madatory 3 times a week unit PT during duty hours. By the way there is no choice in the Army about if you are going to do PT or not, its mandatory.

[Bumble78]

While I like some of the changes they made to the system, as a whole they could have done better.

The changes I like are the the points and the minimums. The old system you could do 12 push-ups and get half the points, but had to do 27 to get 7.5 points.
The new system is 27 for 5 points and 36 for 7.5 and each push up you do it increases your score, not every other one so if you push out one more, you get a better score.
Same with the sit-ups.

Now why did they add points to the run? I score better on the run than anything else, but why is it 60% of the test? If they wanted to reduce the points for the waist why not put them in the push ups and sit ups. So it would be more like 50/20/15/15 .

[DHarris75]

Taking the madatory duty hours PT time from the units is a mistake and I will not apologize for think so. When they made the PT results part of your EPR the supervisors automatically became responsible for your fitness developement. The excuse that it is the individuals responsibility to stay fit is just a means to shed the blame.


We definately agree here! I just wanted to make sure you aren't worried about our image as a service in comparison based on your previous post about your brother and the Marines.

[VFFSSGT]

Just a random thought to put another spin on it... Could they have recognized that one size does not fit all and that we should be able to do the work out we believe is best for us? Granted we know this is not why but I definitely would be happy if unit PT is done away with so long as we get duty time to go do it. You will have some get it, some who don't, and some who won't give up unit PT because they are overbearing parents.

[technomage1]

Just a random thought to put another spin on it... Could they have recognized that one size does not fit all and that we should be able to do the work out we believe is best for us? Granted we know this is not why but I definitely would be happy if unit PT is done away with so long as we get duty time to go do it. You will have some get it, some who don't, and some who won't give up unit PT because they are overbearing parents.

I'd agree with you here. I'd be happy to bury unit PT if I could have duty time, on my own schedule, to work out. One of the best winters (PT wise) I ever spent was doing exactly this - and I got the best score ever on my PT test as a result. Usually the unit PTs that I like are the ones that give you flexibilty to do what you need to do at your own pace. I hate unit PT where they hold your hand like a freaking 3 year old. Either the workout is too hard and results in injury (not just soreness, injury) or, more commonly, it's way too easy and a waste of time.

Of course, the problem would then be how to track it to make sure people are working out and not taking off early and the like. This would take some integrity and supervisor involvement, but it can be done.

I'll even go a step further and say that If they're going to burn us taking away duty time to perform our duties, unit PT should then also be abolished. I'll work out on my own time, but leave me alone, then. Don't make me show up before or after work in that horrible sweat soak PT gear just to waste my time with a workout that isn't effective for me or anyone else, because I could be using that time to do a real workout.

[FLAPS]

I love the bitching and complaining about the new PT standards...especially the part about how less on-duty PT time will hurt their chances to prep for the test. What a bunch of crap! I'm a 41 year old maintainer and work 12 hour days and I managed to get an 87 on my last test. I work out AFTER work, not during duty hours, and I'm 5'10", 214lbs, and have a 37 inch waist. The ONLY reason I got an 87 is because I've taken personal responsibility for my own fitness on my own time. If I used my same scores with the new standards I would have scored a 93....that's awesome.

Bottom line...I can't wait to kick out lazy, johnny bag of donuts for failing to meet AF standards. There is NO excuse not to pass this EASY test!

[inspector42]

check this out, for a male under 30 if you run a 13:36 (42.3 points) have a 39 inch waist (12.6 points) and max out push-ups and sit-ups, 67 pushups (10 points) and 58 situps (10 points) you still FAIL with a 74.9.

[ART]

check this out, for a male under 30 if you run a 13:36 (42.3 points) have a 39 inch waist (12.6 points) and max out push-ups and sit-ups, 67 pushups (10 points) and 58 situps (10 points) you still FAIL with a 74.9.

Sounds like a fat out of shape sub 30 year old who should fail.

[Speakit]

Simple fact, the test is harder to Ace and easier to pass....this point is proven by those adding their previous scores to the current scale and getting 3-5pts higher

[Seasons]

While I like some of the changes they made to the system, as a whole they could have done better.

The changes I like are the the points and the minimums. The old system you could do 12 push-ups and get half the points, but had to do 27 to get 7.5 points.
The new system is 27 for 5 points and 36 for 7.5 and each push up you do it increases your score, not every other one so if you push out one more, you get a better score.
Same with the sit-ups.

Now why did they add points to the run? I score better on the run than anything else, but why is it 60% of the test? If they wanted to reduce the points for the waist why not put them in the push ups and sit ups. So it would be more like 50/20/15/15 .

Agreed. There should be more focus on the actual fitness, not aerobics.


Simple fact, the test is harder to Ace and easier to pass....this point is proven by those adding their previous scores to the current scale and getting 3-5pts higher

Actually, and I don't know how the hell that happened, I lost 6 points. 30 seconds and 0.5" waist to regain my old score. Maybe its also the restructuring of the pushups too, dunno, I always max the situps easy.

[2T2_1997]

Sounds like a fat out of shape sub 30 year old who should fail.

You could very likley find both a, as you put it "fat out of shape" individual. And you could probably find someone who does alot of weight training, maybe boxing or some type of fighting and just can't run well.

Not saying that the second case...couldn't train to meet that run, just an example of a shortcoming in a "one size fits all" mentality we've been handed.

Again...broken record: AF wants you to pass a test first...be in shape second.

[ART]

You could very likley find both a, as you put it "fat out of shape" individual. And you could probably find someone who does alot of weight training, maybe boxing or some type of fighting and just can't run well.

Not saying that the second case...couldn't train to meet that run, just an example of a shortcoming in a "one size fits all" mentality we've been handed.

Again...broken record: AF wants you to pass a test first...be in shape second.

In 25 years, not once have I laid eyes on an AF member who boxes or weight trains who also has a 39" abdominal circumfrence. (The AF DOES NOT measure your your waist.) 39" AC=beer belly.

I would guess that for 99.99999% of the AF, this "fitness test" is an excellent measure of their overall fitness and we should thank our lucky stars that it is so easy. You want a tougher test? Fine, hold yourself to a higher standard. You want an easier test? Join the Civil Air Patrol.

[fufu]

I love the bitching and complaining about the new PT standards...especially the part about how less on-duty PT time will hurt their chances to prep for the test. What a bunch of crap! I'm a 41 year old maintainer and work 12 hour days and I managed to get an 87 on my last test. I work out AFTER work, not during duty hours, and I'm 5'10", 214lbs, and have a 37 inch waist. The ONLY reason I got an 87 is because I've taken personal responsibility for my own fitness on my own time. If I used my same scores with the new standards I would have scored a 93....that's awesome.

Bottom line...I can't wait to kick out lazy, johnny bag of donuts for failing to meet AF standards. There is NO excuse not to pass this EASY test!

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/PTGPOD/826309~Chocolate-Chip-Cookie-on-White-Background-Posters.jpg

[air1986]

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/PTGPOD/826309~Chocolate-Chip-Cookie-on-White-Background-Posters.jpg

(homer simpson voice) mmmm cookie. I sure do love em. The only beef i have is the fitness cells because you have to rely on someone you never met before in your life deciding whether your doing a push up correctly. I mean whats good for one may not be good for another. I honestly think the push up should be changed to another form of muscular exercise like the bench press or something. Either you can do it or you can't. IMHO i think this pt gig the AF is on is out of hand i mean i can't turn on AFN without something about fitness this or fitness that. Every single AF Report on AFN is PT PT PT. I work out 3 days a week usually alot of cardio pushups and situps mocking the test just not scoring.

On the plus side of things it has gotten me into the gym more. Since coming to Kun i have noticed doing PT on my own and its not really a chore anymore i enjoy getting on the mill tuning my IPOD up and going for a 30 minute run and or running the bowling pin or WP park with my squadron for those stationed here know what they are. I am just nervous always have and always will of having an "OFF" day when i go to test and all of a sudden im on the bad boy list. This has been a great year for me overall I made staff and im finally headed back to the east coast in 2010. I would really hate to lose my follow on to dover over an OFF day and not be aloud in ALS. So i will continue to work my ass off to strive for a passing score.

Sorry guys didnt mean to rant.

[CrustySMSgt]

On the plus side of things it has gotten me into the gym more. Since coming to Kun i have noticed doing PT on my own and its not really a chore anymore

I am just nervous always have and always will of having an "OFF" day when i go to test and all of a sudden im on the bad boy list. This has been a great year for me overall I made staff and im finally headed back to the east coast in 2010. I would really hate to lose my follow on to dover over an OFF day and not be aloud in ALS. So i will continue to work my ass off to strive for a passing score.

Sorry guys didnt mean to rant.

You're at the Kun... nothing better to do than PT... lol

I just passed my test with severe pneumonia... I'll admit I "just" had to do the walk... but I knocked it out in 42 minutes, and then took my butt to the hospital. The test isn't going to fail anyone who has been doing regular PT because they have a "bad day." If you're bordeline out of shape and have a bad day, you will probably fail... which is the way it is supposed to work.

And that was far from a rant... lol

[sweatyAZ]

Yes the test is still way off from being what everyone wants to be, but what did you expect? When was the last time you have seen any boards come out with anything thats made sense since 1990? Meh, whatever, just remember these people will be out soon and so will their programs. Just do it, bide your time, and wait for the right moment to be able to tell one of their prodiges they are fucking idiots when it won't hurt your career. The only thing I don't get about this new test is the health risk column. There is no way in hell thats a medical fact. What is a fact is that people who live healthy lifestyles actually cost more to the government over time then those that don't, because they live longer. So in these penny penching times I say smoke em if ya got em, bbq and kegs in every hangar on friday. Thats how it used to be right?

[tsgtlifer]

I agree that portions of the new test are questionable at best, I have a different take than most. STOP making excuses and get your butt off the couch and exercise. It works.

I'm USAF AD, have 2 kids, coach a few sports, wife is a full-time student, yada yada, etc, etc. But I still manage to find time in a busy schedule to work out and in fact run a few marathons and still dedicate myself to my family and job. The bottom line is that everyone wants to eat cheeseburgers and go home and sleep or watch the tube then complain that they have no time in the day to exercise.

We are in the business of defending our country.

[Joker76]

I just passed my test with severe pneumonia...

And that was far from a rant... lol

That is the dumbest thing i've ever heard...you should be ashamed of yourself....and charged with damage to govt propertly...the PTL who let you test with pneumonia should be court martialed....

[Capt Alfredo]

I agree that portions of the new test are questionable at best, I have a different take than most. STOP making excuses and get your butt off the couch and exercise. It works.

I'm USAF AD, have 2 kids, coach a few sports, wife is a full-time student, yada yada, etc, etc. But I still manage to find time in a busy schedule to work out and in fact run a few marathons and still dedicate myself to my family and job. The bottom line is that everyone wants to eat cheeseburgers and go home and sleep or watch the tube then complain that they have no time in the day to exercise.

We are in the business of defending our country.

And for 90 percent of us, defending our country does not require running 1.5 miles, push-ups, sit-ups, or a small waist. Stop drinking the kool-aid. I just wish one person in charge would admit it's all about image and stop pushing the fit-to-fight company line.

[CrustySMSgt]

That is the dumbest thing i've ever heard...you should be ashamed of yourself....and charged with damage to govt propertly...the PTL who let you test with pneumonia should be court martialed....

Are you a doctor? Stay at a holiday Inn Express last night?

I saw the doc, got a DLC, reviewed by the HAWC, and was cleared to walk. I wasn't aware I needed to route the package through you too. :rolleyes:

[CrustySMSgt]

And for 90 percent of us, defending our country does not require running 1.5 miles, push-ups, sit-ups, or a small waist. Stop drinking the kool-aid. I just wish one person in charge would admit it's all about image and stop pushing the fit-to-fight company line.

Listen to the CSAF, he'll admit image is a small part of it. He'll also ad mit it is about the budget and the amount the DoD spends on healthcare for those who live unhealthly lifestyles. And being fit does improve overall performance, whether your job is physically or mentally demanding.

[Capt Alfredo]

Listen to the CSAF, he'll admit image is a small part of it. He'll also ad mit it is about the budget and the amount the DoD spends on healthcare for those who live unhealthly lifestyles. And being fit does improve overall performance, whether your job is physically or mentally demanding.

But if you live longer, your health care costs to the government increase, so I don't buy that one. I don't dispute that a fit Airman may outperform an unfit one, in theory, but the overemphasis on PT is ridiculous.

[sweatyAZ]

Listen to the CSAF, he'll admit image is a small part of it. He'll also ad mit it is about the budget and the amount the DoD spends on healthcare for those who live unhealthly lifestyles. And being fit does improve overall performance, whether your job is physically or mentally demanding.

only problem is people who live healthy and have long lives actually cost more in the long run. the unhealthy die off quicker. the healthy live to the point of being beseiged by alot of disease and need more care. go figure, but thats the bottom line. besides, it's not like the gov is going to save any money with all of this for another half century or so. im with alfredo, it's image, and it won't change until someone high up says "why are all the award packages full of Airmen who spend half their time volunteering, the other half split between school and the gym, and they don't know dick about their job?" then watch the rats jump ship on all of these movements. no one has ever been able to prove that we have any failings in the AOR due to fitness, so wtf?

[LOAL-D]

I did a pushup once.........:D

[VFFSSGT]

Listen to the CSAF, he'll admit image is a small part of it. He'll also ad mit it is about the budget and the amount the DoD spends on healthcare for those who live unhealthly lifestyles. And being fit does improve overall performance, whether your job is physically or mentally demanding.

They seem to care about the cost of unhealthy living but not the money wasted on contracts, flat screen televisions, legacy inefficient equipment, etc, etc.... :rolleyes:

[CrustySMSgt]

They seem to care about the cost of unhealthy living but not the money wasted on contracts, flat screen televisions, legacy inefficient equipment, etc, etc.... :rolleyes:

You owe me... I know you're always looking for a way to insert flat screens into every topic... I set you up perfectly ;)

[LOAL-D]

You owe me... I know you're always looking for a way to insert flat screens into every topic... I set you up perfectly ;)


I heard Jill Metzger was in charge of USAF flat-screen procurement...;)


....sorry....

[VFFSSGT]

You owe me... I know you're always looking for a way to insert flat screens into every topic... I set you up perfectly ;)

ROFL.... :D Thanks! I'll get you back... :cheers:

[takthekak]

They seem to care about the cost of unhealthy living but not the money wasted on contracts, flat screen televisions, legacy inefficient equipment, etc, etc.... :rolleyes:

Wide use of multiple flat screens is the only thing keeping the AF in business.
It is the cure all to all of the major AF issues. It is the answer to the PT
problem, the uniform problem and the leadership problem.

[technomage1]

Wide use of multiple flat screens is the only thing keeping the AF in business.
It is the cure all to all of the major AF issues. It is the answer to the PT
problem, the uniform problem and the leadership problem.

Heck yeah. We've got to lift the screens (PT: check!), not dirty our blues doing it (ABUs: check!), and we can wallop our leadership over the head with them in the end (leadership: check!).

[BlueDevilRN]

The only thing I don't get about this new test is the health risk column. There is no way in hell thats a medical fact.

NOW I'll jump in.

As an RN (and an oncology RN at that) I completely agree with you.

I was an SFS K9 handler back in the late nineties and am now going back in the AF as a nurse. I remember that ridiculous bike test and I also remember going to the gym both on my own time and with my flight (we would go and do situps and pushups and then something that was actually fun, like play basketball). I hated running, but would get on the treadmill or the elliptical and lift weights and do what I had to do. I was always below my max weight, never resembled a duffel bag, and never had a problem with PT. I didn't mind the fitness requirement then, and while the whole forty-seven pushups IN A MINUTE to max that out on my score is burning me up now, I'll do it, one way or the other.

But what really pisses me off and what really, in all honesty, very nearly offended me was seeing the health risk assessments.

Not being able to run well does not increase your risk for cancer, and I'd like to know who the AF paid for this "medically sound" information. There is no way that not being able to run well is indicative of anything along those lines - it may show your endurance sucks, and it may show that your lung capacity ain't what it should be, but there's no way purely not being able to run increases your cancer risk, or your diabetes risk, or any of the other snake oil they're touting.

While being OUT OF SHAPE, overweight, possessing a high level of abdominal fat, and/or making poor life choices (smoking, eating crap - not judging anyone, but we all know that's bad news) will increase your risk/predict a higher probability for developing certain diseases, an inability to run 1.5 miles in 14 minutes doesn't. I know people who can kick my ass on a bike - ride for miles and ride for hours - who completely suck at running, and I assure you they're in infinitely better shape than I am. No way they have an increased cancer risk as a result.

That said, I know that by some time next year I'll have to meet the new standards, and I'm Type A enough that I hate "losing" or looking stupid (although if they make me wear some asinine PT patch I'll definitely look stupid), so I'd better get hot on it now.

[JTAC_Sean]

There's a lot of crap here, so I didn't read every page. Forgive me if my suggestions/bitches have already been posted.

I hate the one minute thing. Give us two minutes. One minute is just ... I don't know. It isn't long enough. Especially for the pushups when the guy has longer arms. Up the requirements a bit and extend it out to two minutes.

I don't care about the run. 1.5 miles or 2 miles, doesn't matter. You're never going to have to run something like that in combat, so it doesn't matter. Just ask the Marines; that's why they came out with a totally different PT test to take yearly.

Replace the waist measurement portion. With what, you ask? Pull-ups. Why? Hell, I don't know. I don't have a medical degree. Because being good at pull-ups requires some work I guess. Mostly because I like doing pull-ups.

[BlueDevilRN]

Yeah, I'm a little afraid of the one minute thing myself.

But I do agree with the abdominal measurement, because at least there's research - legitimate, non-AF related research - to back that one up. There's some common sense there as well - if you do nothing but sit on your ass and eat like someone possessed, you WILL gain a gut - and having that gut definitely puts you in a higher risk group for all sorts of problems. You got the gut from sitting on your posterior and from making bad decisions - but having it is like a huge flag for health problems because of your decisions.

Someone else posted something about how a 39" abdominal measurement = beer belly, because we're not talking about your waistline here. And I think they're dead-on accurate. You can naturally have a thick waist or be muscular in that area, but there's no way you're going to build muscle around your belly - you'll just lose fat if you're working out, and add it on if you're not.

[JTAC_Sean]

But I do agree with the abdominal measurement, because at least there's research - legitimate, non-AF related research - to back that one up.

Look, I just want them to add freakin' pull-ups to the PT test, okay? Removing the waist portion is the best way to do that. I don't need you waving all your little facts and figures and studies around, confusing the subject.

Thanks!

/sarcasm

[mfjdspence]

I applaud the changes that are going to put the focus on me maintaining my own fitness vs. my squadron. Squadron controlled PT, while in theory is a great idea, there are some squadrons who go off the deep end or have folks who have gone off the deep end. Right now we are PT testing 13 times a year. Under the new PT test it would be up to 15. Not exactly what the AF prescribed when they developed the program and it hasn't changed the number of folks passing vs. failing.

[BlueDevilRN]

Look, I just want them to add freakin' pull-ups to the PT test, okay? Removing the waist portion is the best way to do that. I don't need you waving all your little facts and figures and studies around, confusing the subject.

Thanks!




/sarcasm

:ph34r: :ph34r:

Admittedly it's probably "facts" that got us this mess in the first place!
Lol

[takthekak]

I applaud the changes that are going to put the focus on me maintaining my own fitness vs. my squadron. Squadron controlled PT, while in theory is a great idea, there are some squadrons who go off the deep end or have folks who have gone off the deep end. Right now we are PT testing 13 times a year. Under the new PT test it would be up to 15. Not exactly what the AF prescribed when they developed the program and it hasn't changed the number of folks passing vs. failing.

If you think Squadron PT didn't work, wait until what "personal PT programs" do for people.
I have know people work out in the AM and show/get ti work by 0800/0900 or take a PT
lunch 1030-1200...do you think any of this will happen when the 3x a week PT guidance
is yanked out of the AFI.
This year I had to look at all my troops PT test dates and make sure they didn't fall around
their EPR due date, now I just have to do double the deconfliction next year.

[2T2_1997]

In 25 years, not once have I laid eyes on an AF member who boxes or weight trains who also has a 39" abdominal circumfrence. (The AF DOES NOT measure your your waist.) 39" AC=beer belly.
.

Dante Culpepper wore a 42" waist pant while playing QB in the NFL.
Did he have a beer belly? How about that fighter Kimbo Slice? Think he has a 36" waist?

[ART]

Dante Culpepper wore a 42" waist pant while playing QB in the NFL.
Did he have a beer belly? How about that fighter Kimbo Slice? Think he has a 36" waist?

Was either of them in the Air Force, being held to an Air Force standard?

And once again, the Air Force does not measure your waist, get that out of your head.

[bb stacker]

i would pay to see kimbo's reaction when they told him he failed his pt test. >:)

[El Jefe]

Basing your level of fitness on anything other than performance is stupid, and misleading at the least.

When I was active duty, one of my team leaders was built like a fooking tank, but his height/weight didn't jive and he was constantly on remedial PT. Nevermind that he always aced the PFT and could probably bench 3-4 of the pogues who'd come up with this shit.

The Corps has corrected this thankfully.

[takthekak]

Dante Culpepper wore a 42" waist pant while playing QB in the NFL.
Did he have a beer belly? How about that fighter Kimbo Slice? Think he has a 36" waist?

I bet there were some waivers for Bowe to join awhile back...I can''t imagine what his waist was.

No Marine 'Poster Boy'
Published: Wednesday, March 5, 1997

The boxer Riddick Bowe, who joined the Marines and then left in a few days, is no ''poster boy for the Marines.''

Bowe, 29 years old and weighing 245 pounds, had to get special permission to have the maximum enlistment age of 28 waived. ''Now,'' said Newman, ''he had to get permission from the base commander and the commander of his unit to come to an agreement that he would be released from duty.'' According to Capt. David Steele, a public affairs officer for Marine Corps recruiting, a recruit ''can't just quit,'' but about 12 percent are permitted to withdraw after consultations.

[fufu]

Was either of them in the Air Force, being held to an Air Force standard?

And once again, the Air Force does not measure your waist, get that out of your head.

Then what do they measure? Your belly? What are you saying?

[CrustySMSgt]

Then what do they measure? Your belly? What are you saying?

Yes, it is your abdominal circumfrance... much higher than your waistline.

[fufu]

Yes, it is your abdominal circumfrance... much higher than your waistline.

Okay............................

[sweatyAZ]

:ph34r: :ph34r:

Admittedly it's probably "facts" that got us this mess in the first place!
Lol

just curious as to what those facts are. mckinnleys audit? says 38% of the af is morbidly obease. anyone with a rational mind could tell you that the measurements they used to get this (the incomplete bmi) wouldnt hold up in any court or science lab. how about the study that says fitness is causing airmen to fail on the battlefield. oh wait, that doesnt exist and doesnt happen. even when airmen who are not trained to take on army missions do so with success. you must mean the facts that the af leadership only care about how you look to the public. or the fact that af leadership doesnt want to pay your health care bills when your older because you didnt eat sprouts everyday. even though healthy people who live longer actually cost the government more in the long run, i like that fact.

[CLSE]

Yeah, I'm a little afraid of the one minute thing myself.

But I do agree with the abdominal measurement, because at least there's research - legitimate, non-AF related research - to back that one up. There's some common sense there as well - if you do nothing but sit on your ass and eat like someone possessed, you WILL gain a gut - and having that gut definitely puts you in a higher risk group for all sorts of problems. You got the gut from sitting on your posterior and from making bad decisions - but having it is like a huge flag for health problems because of your decisions.

Someone else posted something about how a 39" abdominal measurement = beer belly, because we're not talking about your waistline here. And I think they're dead-on accurate. You can naturally have a thick waist or be muscular in that area, but there's no way you're going to build muscle around your belly - you'll just lose fat if you're working out, and add it on if you're not.

One big problem with the abdominal measurement - just like the BMI, it may be accurate for people right around the mean, but it becomes less accurate the farther you deviate from the mean.

The abdominal measurement assumes a whole lot, based on the measurement of a single point on the body.

As an example, I'm 5' 11" and 225lbs with a 39" waist as of last measurement. However, I also have a hip circumference of 42".

An individual who is the same height and weight, and with the same abdominal circumference, but with a hip circumference of, say, 37" does not have the same abdominal composition as I do.

It's basic physics, a certain amount of mass occupies a specifc volume.

If the volume is distributed differently, then the mass is also distributed differently.

So, the individual with the 37" hips is going to have more mass above his waist, while I have more below my waist.

Anything that relies on one measurement of anything as variable as the human body is going to be inherently inaccurate.

That one measurement may be accurate as an indicator that some condition may be developing or has developed, but the measurement itself cannot provide confirmation of that condition.

Go look at the number of diseases that include flu-like symptoms. Diagnosing anything else involving the human body is just as complicated.

[Eduardo Santiago]

Has anyone heard if they are still using BMI or not?

[CrustySMSgt]

Has anyone heard if they are still using BMI or not?

Why is it such a burning question? In the grand scheme of things, it really doesn't matter.

[sweatyAZ]

Why is it such a burning question? In the grand scheme of things, it really doesn't matter.

Its because they use an incomplete formula thats based on people being cut out of a cookie cutter, not reality. I've seen several stout people, all muscle no body fat, screwed over by it. AF said they were "morbidly obese" So yeah it does matter, cut the bmi out of Mckinnley's audit and the numbers drop.

[takthekak]

few stories
http://www.langley.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123161634
http://www.beale.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123158509
http://www.acc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123160691
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123164392

[CrustySMSgt]

Its because they use an incomplete formula thats based on people being cut out of a cookie cutter, not reality. I've seen several stout people, all muscle no body fat, screwed over by it. AF said they were "morbidly obese" So yeah it does matter, cut the bmi out of Mckinnley's audit and the numbers drop.

huh? The only time BMI is factored in to the test is to give those under a 25 full points. Other than that is has no effect on your score. It does nothing to discount the waist measurement discrepancies in the audit. :confused:

[takthekak]

these are good too:
http://www.af.mil/news/video/index.asp?cid=3&sid=8410
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123163962

[Eduardo Santiago]

Why is it such a burning question? In the grand scheme of things, it really doesn't matter.

Because I’m 6'4" 196 pounds with a 35" waist so in the grand scheme of things the waist measurement can eat my ass because I’m under a 25 for BMI I have never been able to get max points for the waist I’ve always just been under the BMI max that’s why

[CrustySMSgt]

Because I’m 6'4" 196 pounds with a 35" waist so in the grand scheme of things the waist measurement can eat my ass because I’m under a 25 for BMI I have never been able to get max points for the waist I’ve always just been under the BMI max that’s why

I must be missing something... if they are still using BMI, you won't get the points, and if they aren't, you won't get the points... so what does it matter? :confused:

Besides... 35" is max point for waist now, so it really won't matter.

[Rocks63]

These new standards will not help anyone get in shape beter shape, the standards are weak enough as they are already. I am 6'1" @ 210lbs and barely did any physical activity this year and i acheived a 90. With the new standards my score would be a 95. I really dont know what the point of this change is

[darkrider318]

The whole standard is a joke, the policy will not change anything except the loss of quality technical/leadership folks, the AF needs to get there head out of their ass and relize we do not chase the enemy or run from them , our jobs is to fly, destroy and win through Air Superiorty!!