New PT Fitness Charts

[Raptor81]

I don't know if everyone has had a chance to see the new fitness charts for testing but whoever drew up those charts is way off.

I'm 28 years old and i'm in the 80-85 range on the current chart. With the new charts, i'm actually failing. To get the full 60 points for the run, i have to do a 9:12 or under time. Waist is easy cause i'm at 33 inches so full 20 points there. Push-ups = 67 in 1 minute to get full ten points and the min. score to pass the push-ups is 33(50% of max). Sit-ups, max is 58 in a minute with a min. score of 42(72% of max). Oh, and you fail the whole test if you don't meet the min. score in any of the areas. So, in other words, you could blow the run out of the water(9 min mile and a half), get full 20 pts for 33 inches, max pushups but then only get 40 situps and fail the test even though your total score is above 95%. We might as well bring back the bike test and just use that til the PT Program is fixed because chances are, i'll pass the bike test with a 75% instead of failing the new test with a 95%.

Check out the score charts and post if you think they're fair across the boards because i don't think they're fair at all. I wouldn't mind seeing the "evidence" that the AF put together to determine the charts because i think someone fudged it to try and balance the EPR system. Think about it, your 5's are going to be the only people that can "meet" the standard in terms of fitness and chances are, they're not going to be good at their jobs at all and will probably volunteer 90% of their time(including on-duty time) to better the community. What does the "P" stand for in EPR again? PERFORMANCE [ON THE JOB]!!! I'll promise that the new emphisis on EPR's will be fitness as in EFR's(Enlisted Fitness Reports).

The AF has only recently gone to a much higher level of fitness than in the past. The AF is supposed to be technical and knowledge-based geeks. We might as well start calling ourselves the Army Air Corps.

Top Leaders still got time to change the charts to be fair but the question is, will they?

[VFFSSGT]

Sorry, you are already behind the 8-ball on this one...it is already being discussed here: :) I am with you though, the minimum on sit-ups it quite extreme...

http://www.militarytimes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1579439

[CrustySMSgt]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say anyone that can max the run, waist, and pushups should have no problem doing the minimum situps.

No idea what you're rambling about beyond that...

[blacksheep1208]

All the minimums aside from the situps seem reasonable. What logic did they use in the decision on where to draw the situps cut off?

[takthekak]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say anyone that can max the run, waist, and pushups should have no problem doing the minimum situps.

No idea what you're rambling about beyond that...

Do you think someone who excels in this PT test will perform better
in battle and get a higher body count?

[Shrike]

Do you think someone who excels in this PT test will perform better
in battle and get a higher body count?

I would say "no", because the vast majority of us aren't in that kind of job. I know that after a hard workout, I have more difficulty moving my mouse and lifting my coffee cup. So really, PT is detrimental to my performance. But then again, I'm getting old and arthritic, so who's to say which is to blame. :D

[alaskaresident]

WIth the new point system I will still pass. I just do not like this minimum requirement garbage. I am a 28yr female, my minimums are 15:51 for the run, I last did it in 11:15. Waist needs to be 35.5 I was last a 33.5, situps need to be at least 38 I did 42 last time. Now here is the kicker I have always sucked at pushups, even in basic training I sucked at pushups and have been trying for the past 6 years to get better, they want me to do 18 for minimum passing. I can pass with enough points without evening doing a single push up and now I have to try and do 18 in the next couple of months. If I get discharged because I can't do a stupid pushup I will be beyond pissed.

[VFFSSGT]

I didn't even pay too much attention to the female minimums compared to the males; the more I look at this the less I believe it is worth anything - not that I really did in the first place. I already stated it would be a failure like the last program...

I just wonder how many people will be kicked out and careers runied before they realized they screwed up again. But don't worry, when commanders don't do what they are instructed to do, they simply change the rules of the game just like them liberals in MA so the Kennedy Dynasty can continue on...

Male..........P/U=33, S/U=42, Run=13:36
Female......P/U=18, S/U=38, Run=16:22

[blacksheep1208]

WIth the new point system I will still pass. I just do not like this minimum requirement garbage. I am a 28yr female, my minimums are 15:51 for the run, I last did it in 11:15. Waist needs to be 35.5 I was last a 33.5, situps need to be at least 38 I did 42 last time. Now here is the kicker I have always sucked at pushups, even in basic training I sucked at pushups and have been trying for the past 6 years to get better, they want me to do 18 for minimum passing. I can pass with enough points without evening doing a single push up and now I have to try and do 18 in the next couple of months. If I get discharged because I can't do a stupid pushup I will be beyond pissed.

Go to this page, http://www.hundredpushups.com/. Our unit did this program during PT, using the third columns to see how many pushups to do each set. The amount of pushups we could all do increased by the end of thte program. It's worth a shot since this is the new system being rammed down our throats.

[CrustySMSgt]

WIth the new point system I will still pass. I just do not like this minimum requirement garbage. I am a 28yr female, my minimums are 15:51 for the run, I last did it in 11:15. Waist needs to be 35.5 I was last a 33.5, situps need to be at least 38 I did 42 last time. Now here is the kicker I have always sucked at pushups, even in basic training I sucked at pushups and have been trying for the past 6 years to get better, they want me to do 18 for minimum passing. I can pass with enough points without evening doing a single push up and now I have to try and do 18 in the next couple of months. If I get discharged because I can't do a stupid pushup I will be beyond pissed.

Please explain what you mean by "have been trying for the past 6 years to get better." Frankly, for most that means wishing really hard they could do more... and then a couple weeks before they test they start trying to do pushups, get burned out, and then wonder why they don't improve. Maybe you are different and actually work year round to improve your upper body strength, and do pushups year round and just never get better... but my money is on what I've observed as long as PT has been around. Unless you're very unique... muscles react to stress... work them regularly and they get stronger.

[LOAL-D]

I heard the more beer you drink the better you do with the new system...

[CLSE]

All the minimums aside from the situps seem reasonable. What logic did they use in the decision on where to draw the situps cut off?


Probably the same logic they used to make the scores for the run times the same for all ages after the first minute.

Funny how the Command Chief says that the test is "science-based", yet every bit of science known to man has proven that the physical capacity of most people will decrease as they age. This is reflected in the run times of every branch of service, except (drum roll)........THE AIR FORCE!!!!!

The Cooper Institute, the source of all aerobic knowledge in the world, even adjusts their run times for age.

It must be a conspiracy, and the Air Force Medical Service is exposing it!!!

Next month, the Air Force will publish a new regulation stating that the sky is actually green, and that this is based on the latest atmospheric science (the common conception that the sky is blue is also a conspiracy, which the Air Force Weather Service is going to expose).

[Raptor81]

Please explain what you mean by "have been trying for the past 6 years to get better." Frankly, for most that means wishing really hard they could do more... and then a couple weeks before they test they start trying to do pushups, get burned out, and then wonder why they don't improve. Maybe you are different and actually work year round to improve your upper body strength, and do pushups year round and just never get better... but my money is on what I've observed as long as PT has been around. Unless you're very unique... muscles react to stress... work them regularly and they get stronger.

I'm in the same boat as the female but with situps. It's more of a hit or miss with me though. On some days, i can bust out a nice 45 but on others, i'm lucky to get 1. I already know my muscles take longer to heal than the average person that's even with the proper food/proteins and water. Now i have a totally new problem...i've gained 20 pounds in less than 10 weeks. I'm a guy so that rules out being pregnant. I know from the health classes i've been to that gaining that much weight in 10 weeks is unhealthly. Oh, i stopped the protein drinks over a year ago so i know it's not that and yes, my situp problem continues. I saw someone posted a routine for pushups, is there one for situps/crunches?

[fufu]

WIth the new point system I will still pass. I just do not like this minimum requirement garbage. I am a 28yr female, my minimums are 15:51 for the run, I last did it in 11:15. Waist needs to be 35.5 I was last a 33.5, situps need to be at least 38 I did 42 last time. Now here is the kicker I have always sucked at pushups, even in basic training I sucked at pushups and have been trying for the past 6 years to get better, they want me to do 18 for minimum passing. I can pass with enough points without evening doing a single push up and now I have to try and do 18 in the next couple of months. If I get discharged because I can't do a stupid pushup I will be beyond pissed.

Try working your shoulders(front delts) and chest(pecs) with dumbbells. This will help your pushups, it certianly did mine.

[FSU-Nole]

The amount of bitching and whining that goes on in this thread is mind numbing. Just get out there and work harder. If you PT'ed for 45 mins a day, 4 days a week, every person in the AF would be able to get a 100 on the PT test without question.

[mocitytx1]

The amount of bitching and whining that goes on in this thread is mind numbing. Just get out there and work harder. If you PT'ed for 45 mins a day, 4 days a week, every person in the AF would be able to get a 100 on the PT test without question.



Not a 100..chill out mane

[CLSE]

The amount of bitching and whining that goes on in this thread is mind numbing. Just get out there and work harder. If you PT'ed for 45 mins a day, 4 days a week, every person in the AF would be able to get a 100 on the PT test without question.

It'd be nice to have a regular, uninterrupted 45 minutes for anything outside of work for 1 day a week, every week, let alone 4.

[FSU-Nole]

Nope, they'd be able to get a 100. The difference is that what many consider PT is not really PT. Running 10 min miles on the treadmill for 20 mins and then doing 15 crunches and maybe some stair steppers is not real PT.

45 mins is plenty of time to get in a 5-7 mile run, plus 200 pushups, plus 200 situps, do that 4 times a week and you would get a 100 on the PT test without question. Some people put in real work at PT, others do not, plain and simple.

[Eduardo Santiago]

Has anyone heard if they are still using BMI or not?

[takthekak]

Nope, they'd be able to get a 100. The difference is that what many consider PT is not really PT. Running 10 min miles on the treadmill for 20 mins and then doing 15 crunches and maybe some stair steppers is not real PT.

45 mins is plenty of time to get in a 5-7 mile run, plus 200 pushups, plus 200 situps, do that 4 times a week and you would get a 100 on the PT test without question. Some people put in real work at PT, others do not, plain and simple.

No matter how hard everyone works, not all can get 100's, nor should they.
The goal of the fitness program has always been to increase everyone's
fitness level, not get it to 100. 75 is just fine for most and get's them the 5 epr,
just like the guy who gets 100, and that guy doesn't even get his 100 score
mentioned on the EPR, so much for excelling

[FSU-Nole]

People in the Air Force just don't have the drive to excel in the PT department. Everyone could get a 100 if they APPLIED themselves when they worked out instead of going through the motions. If the Air Force turned around tomorrow and instituted a 62 pushups minimum, 55 situp minimum and 9:36 1.5mile minimum run time for a male under 30 and gave you a year before your test came due, do you think you'd be able to do it? Do you think thousands of airmen that aren't currently attaining 100's on their PFT would start achieving those numbers if they knew they'd be kicked out for not getting them? The answer to both of these questions is 'Yes'.

People in the Air Force, from what I've noticed, do the minimum to get by, very few try to excel and reach for the 100. So then when they do slip up and didnt get in a good month of working out, they're now borderline failing. However, the person that strives for the 100 everytime, when they slip up or go through a bad spell, they may still make a 90 or excellent.

[sanguines]

People in the Air Force just don't have the drive to excel in the PT department. Everyone could get a 100 if they APPLIED themselves when they worked out instead of going through the motions. If the Air Force turned around tomorrow and instituted a 62 pushups minimum, 55 situp minimum and 9:36 1.5mile minimum run time for a male under 30 and gave you a year before your test came due, do you think you'd be able to do it? Do you think thousands of airmen that aren't currently attaining 100's on their PFT would start achieving those numbers if they knew they'd be kicked out for not getting them? The answer to both of these questions is 'Yes'.

People in the Air Force, from what I've noticed, do the minimum to get by, very few try to excel and reach for the 100. So then when they do slip up and didnt get in a good month of working out, they're now borderline failing. However, the person that strives for the 100 everytime, when they slip up or go through a bad spell, they may still make a 90 or excellent.

While I agree few people try to reach anything other than the minimum, I respectfully disagree that EVERYONE can get 100 on the current or new test. Take it from me: under 25, BMI ~23.5, extremely fit (I run marathons - as I sit here I'm noshing on my recovery meal from 15 miles), and yet, I've never achieved 100 on the AFPFT. Why? I don't max pushups (last year, I was in the low 50s, and I trained - hard), and I don't max the run (personal best of about 11 minutes). I got an 88, and I was OK with that. In the new system the same scores earn me a 94. I doubt I will ever get 100 though, because I know that A) I'm not genetically gifted enough to run 1.5mi sub 10 minutes, let alone sub 9:20 (this equates to a ~18-19 minute 5k, not something that ANYONE can do and certainly not without EXTENSIVE training or being somewhat genetically gifted)! and B) I recognize that it's nigh-on-impossible to do 66 (or whatever the new req. is) pushups with proper form in 60 seconds.

So yeah. We know nobody cares. That's just the problem - nobody cares.

[fufu]

People in the Air Force just don't have the drive to excel in the PT department. Everyone could get a 100 if they APPLIED themselves when they worked out instead of going through the motions. If the Air Force turned around tomorrow and instituted a 62 pushups minimum, 55 situp minimum and 9:36 1.5mile minimum run time for a male under 30 and gave you a year before your test came due, do you think you'd be able to do it? Do you think thousands of airmen that aren't currently attaining 100's on their PFT would start achieving those numbers if they knew they'd be kicked out for not getting them? The answer to both of these questions is 'Yes'..

Most people in the AF don't care about scoing 100. We know that the majority of us will never need to run 1.5 miles or rep out pushups to complete our daily mission. We also understand that this is simply a beauty contest and generally an "Armyification" of the Air Force.

Furthermore, we did a DAMN fine job prior to this "PT culture" completing our mission. If memory serves me correctly, we didn't fly Nukes across the USA or ship sensitive materials to taiwan by mistake prior to this crap either.

Am I for being fit? Absolutely. But the AF has NEVER put their money where their mouth is in regards to PT. You can't test people twice a year and not provide them time to workout. You can't require people to run twice a year, but not have a suitable indoor running facility in Northern Tier states. The mission hasn't changed, we still fly as many sorties, but with less people..... Shit is going to get fucked up with you continually ask people to do the same or more with less and continue to place demands on their time. Eventually, something has to give.....PT, additional duties, security, primary duties, etc.

[alaskaresident]

Go to this page, http://www.hundredpushups.com/. Our unit did this program during PT, using the third columns to see how many pushups to do each set. The amount of pushups we could all do increased by the end of thte program. It's worth a shot since this is the new system being rammed down our throats.

Thanks, I will look into that.

[alaskaresident]

My shop does mandatory PT 3 times a week and it is not optional. They change the program up each month so we don't get bored doing it. Here is the program for September. Warm up includes jogging in place, high knees, jumping jacks, butt kickers, jog in place, arm circles, raise the roofs. Each of those for a minute. They actual work out is Resistance band steps side to side x20, Pushups with dumbell row x20, Chest flys x20, V ups x20, calf raises on a step x20, Sumo squats x20, Dumbbell fly x20, split lunges x15/leg, knee tucks x15, side crunches x20, becep curls x20, squats with twist x20, 15 pushups, then we repeat all that 3 times and then do a 5 minute cool down. That is considered an aerobics day.

Here is the cardio day. We do the same warmup. Then we do about 30-40 pushups to include diamond, wide grip, and regular then we go run 2.5 miles come back and cool down.

Day 3 is on our own but we have to log at least an hour into the Fitlinxx computer at the gym for proof that we were there.

You are right that I haven't always done PT, while I have always sucked at pushups I have been working extra hard on those for the past 2 years. I have a child who is getting heavy and mommy here needs more strength in her arms.

[jacobdaniel]

People in the Air Force just don't have the drive to excel in the PT department. Everyone could get a 100 if they APPLIED themselves when they worked out instead of going through the motions. If the Air Force turned around tomorrow and instituted a 62 pushups minimum, 55 situp minimum and 9:36 1.5mile minimum run time for a male under 30 and gave you a year before your test came due, do you think you'd be able to do it? Do you think thousands of airmen that aren't currently attaining 100's on their PFT would start achieving those numbers if they knew they'd be kicked out for not getting them? The answer to both of these questions is 'Yes'.

People in the Air Force, from what I've noticed, do the minimum to get by, very few try to excel and reach for the 100. So then when they do slip up and didnt get in a good month of working out, they're now borderline failing. However, the person that strives for the 100 everytime, when they slip up or go through a bad spell, they may still make a 90 or excellent.

HA! This made me laugh at the sheer ridiculousness of it.

[LOAL-D]

;)
My shop does mandatory PT 3 times a week and it is not optional. They change the program up each month so we don't get bored doing it. Here is the program for September. Warm up includes jogging in place, high knees, jumping jacks, butt kickers, jog in place, arm circles, raise the roofs. Each of those for a minute. They actual work out is Resistance band steps side to side x20, Pushups with dumbell row x20, Chest flys x20, V ups x20, calf raises on a step x20, Sumo squats x20, Dumbbell fly x20, split lunges x15/leg, knee tucks x15, side crunches x20, becep curls x20, squats with twist x20, 15 pushups, then we repeat all that 3 times and then do a 5 minute cool down. That is considered an aerobics day.

Here is the cardio day. We do the same warmup. Then we do about 30-40 pushups to include diamond, wide grip, and regular then we go run 2.5 miles come back and cool down.

Day 3 is on our own but we have to log at least an hour into the Fitlinxx computer at the gym for proof that we were there.

You are right that I haven't always done PT, while I have always sucked at pushups I have been working extra hard on those for the past 2 years. I have a child who is getting heavy and mommy here needs more strength in her arms.

I hate mandatory PT that isn't optional....;)

[CrustySMSgt]

My shop does mandatory PT 3 times a week and it is not optional. They change the program up each month so we don't get bored doing it. Here is the program for September. Warm up includes jogging in place, high knees, jumping jacks, butt kickers, jog in place, arm circles, raise the roofs. Each of those for a minute. They actual work out is Resistance band steps side to side x20, Pushups with dumbell row x20, Chest flys x20, V ups x20, calf raises on a step x20, Sumo squats x20, Dumbbell fly x20, split lunges x15/leg, knee tucks x15, side crunches x20, becep curls x20, squats with twist x20, 15 pushups, then we repeat all that 3 times and then do a 5 minute cool down. That is considered an aerobics day.

Here is the cardio day. We do the same warmup. Then we do about 30-40 pushups to include diamond, wide grip, and regular then we go run 2.5 miles come back and cool down.

Day 3 is on our own but we have to log at least an hour into the Fitlinxx computer at the gym for proof that we were there.

You are right that I haven't always done PT, while I have always sucked at pushups I have been working extra hard on those for the past 2 years. I have a child who is getting heavy and mommy here needs more strength in her arms.


Sounds like y'all have a great program... and hopfully it will continue when it is no longer required.

I'll go out on a limb and compare PT test results to WAPS testing... talk to someone who scores in the 40s, and chances are you'll find out they also didn't study. Same thing with PT... most often the score is an accurrate reflection of the amount of effort they have put into it. Yes, there are the genetically gifted who score 100s on PT without trying, and get very high test scores... same as there are those who could spend the rest of their lives studying and never break a 50, or score decently on the PT test... but they are the extremes... and both programs effectively reward the level of effort for the center of mass.

[hawk71049]

;)

I hate mandatory PT that isn't optional....;)

If it is involved in margarita ville... :)

count me in... :eek: :D

Then you gets to work off the calories...:)

.

[takthekak]

few stories
http://www.af.mil/news/video/index.asp?cid=3&sid=8410

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123163962
http://www.langley.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123161634
http://www.beale.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123158509
http://www.acc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123160691
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123164392

[sanguines]

Sounds like y'all have a great program... and hopfully it will continue when it is no longer required.

I'll go out on a limb and compare PT test results to WAPS testing... talk to someone who scores in the 40s, and chances are you'll find out they also didn't study. Same thing with PT... most often the score is an accurrate reflection of the amount of effort they have put into it. Yes, there are the genetically gifted who score 100s on PT without trying, and get very high test scores... same as there are those who could spend the rest of their lives studying and never break a 50, or score decently on the PT test... but they are the extremes... and both programs effectively reward the level of effort for the center of mass.

Nothing against you, but I still disagree. It takes more than your average person doing the training the AF provides to hit that 100 mark on the run time. Yes, as you said, there are those who don't have to try at all really, but for every one of them, there's 5 (or X, that's not the point) who are not capable (without extraordinary training and dedication [which should not be required to score 100 on this test, in my opinion]) of achieving it. Therefore, I think the run is a "miss" overall. If you (not YOU you, but "you") think you can tell me that my 88 means I'm 12% less fit than the rest of my unit... malarkey, let me tell you.

[VIIDS 4 A.R.C.]

hi new here and i will also go out on a limb here and say i can't believe what i am hearing here. i n a culture of intregrity and excellence i am hearing so many excuses. if you fail your first pt test, what does that mean? you need to try harder, however your sitting here complaining and making really lame excuses. no one is holding a gun to your head saying you have to stay in the air force and if you like it( the air force that is) you should probaly try harder. but thats just me any time i have a problem with the air forces newest policy i just remember i VOLUNTEERED for this and it makes it alot easier to go and follow that new policy. not trying to step on toes here just my two cents. i would love some feed back on this too.

[CrustySMSgt]

Nothing against you, but I still disagree. It takes more than your average person doing the training the AF provides to hit that 100 mark on the run time. Yes, as you said, there are those who don't have to try at all really, but for every one of them, there's 5 (or X, that's not the point) who are not capable (without extraordinary training and dedication [which should not be required to score 100 on this test, in my opinion]) of achieving it. Therefore, I think the run is a "miss" overall. If you (not YOU you, but "you") think you can tell me that my 88 means I'm 12% less fit than the rest of my unit... malarkey, let me tell you.

I could give a shit if my troop gets an 80 or 100... they are good to go. I will say I am concerned when they score below 80, just because on a a bad day, it is real easy to turn that 80 into a sub-75. But as long as they pass, I'm not racking & stacking them based on fitness scores. Chase the 100 and get your knickers in a know for not being able to get one... that's on you. Passing meets standards.

[alaskaresident]

hi new here and i will also go out on a limb here and say i can't believe what i am hearing here. i n a culture of intregrity and excellence i am hearing so many excuses. if you fail your first pt test, what does that mean? you need to try harder, however your sitting here complaining and making really lame excuses. no one is holding a gun to your head saying you have to stay in the air force and if you like it( the air force that is) you should probaly try harder. but thats just me any time i have a problem with the air forces newest policy i just remember i VOLUNTEERED for this and it makes it alot easier to go and follow that new policy. not trying to step on toes here just my two cents. i would love some feed back on this too.

I love the Air Force and want to stay in 20+ years. That's why I am doing everything in my power to ensure that happens. I am also battling shoulder and back issues, it pains me to do pushups. I can do them but it hurts. Do I go get put on a profile or do I push through the pain and do what I need to do to stay in. Right now I am working through the pain and popping Motrin like candy because I am also fearful of a medical discharge. With the economy the way it is the chances of me and my husband finding a good job on the outside with all the benefits the Air Force provides is slim.

[VIIDS 4 A.R.C.]

alaskaresident see your doing exactly what you need to. push throught the pain and get the job done and if you don't meet the standards before your pt test go and get on a profile thats what there for not for the fat bodies that dont want to do it. if you have a real problem there not going to release you because your hurt or injuried. and if your actually broken then its better for you to get out anfd allow someone else to complete the mission because that is the most important thing, not you or me but warheads on foreheads. sorry if this upsets you but this is just my personal opinion.

[alaskaresident]

VIIDS- I see where you are coming from but alot of people think that people who get on profiles do it to get out of someting. I was on a pushup profile a few months ago when I tested and am currently on a referrel to see a civillian doctor for my shoulders and back but they have yet to determined what is causing the problem even after under going and MRI and x-rays. Some people in the shop made the comment that if I wasn't on a profile during my test I probably would of failed. I crunched the numbers and with what I did with 0 pushups entered I would of got a 78. By having my pushups exempted I got an 82. They both would of been passing. I have till January to decided what I am going to do. Maybe by then I will have answers.

[Lafortune]

“The views expressed in this discussion are those of the author and do not reflect the official policy or position of the Department of the Air Force, Department of the Army, Department of Defense, or the U.S. Government.?”

As an AF student in the Command & General Staff College at Fort Leavenworth it amazes me how far the AF still needs to go when compared to the Army in developing a physical fitness mindset. It is refreshing that the AF is willing to change a fitness test, which is not working, but these changes will not change the average airman’s attitude towards physical fitness until more changes occur. The Army’s PFT is not much different than the AF, but what I am referring to is how the Army has institutionalized fitness to where the soldier understands it is a part of their job description to be physically fit. First, the AF needs to have actual scores, not just pass/fail on performance reports and promotion records. Therefore, PFT scores can affect promotions just like Master’s degrees and testing currently affect the officer and enlisted promotions. Second, commanders have to give airmen more than the 4.5 hours a week of work time to get in shape. Currently, too many organizations look down on the individual who spends a lot time at the gym and rewards the individual who spends no time at the gym, but can write an amazing report. The AF needs well-rounded individuals and fitness is as important as all other job skills. Therefore, the AF fitness test had some problems and needed to change, but the real problem lies in the average airman’s attitude toward fitness and until the AF follows the Army’s lead and makes it important part of our lives it does not matter what you do to the fitness test.

Maj Todd Lafortune
Student, Command and General Staff College
U.S. Army Combined Arms Center
Fort Leavenworth, Kansas

[JTAC_Sean]

As an AF student in the Command & General Staff College at Fort Leavenworth it amazes me how far the AF still needs to go when compared to the Army in developing a physical fitness mindset.

And as a JTAC who spends all his time, deployed and home station, with the Army, allow me to say ... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Comparing 10% of the Army with a physically demanding job who maintain a high level of fitness to the entire Air Force is both faulty math and totally inaccurate.

[Shrike]

“The views expressed in this discussion are those of the author and do not reflect the official policy or position of the Department of the Air Force, Department of the Army, Department of Defense, or the U.S. Government.?”

As an AF student in the Command & General Staff College at Fort Leavenworth it amazes me how far the AF still needs to go when compared to the Army in developing a physical fitness mindset. It is refreshing that the AF is willing to change a fitness test, which is not working, but these changes will not change the average airman’s attitude towards physical fitness until more changes occur. The Army’s PFT is not much different than the AF, but what I am referring to is how the Army has institutionalized fitness to where the soldier understands it is a part of their job description to be physically fit. First, the AF needs to have actual scores, not just pass/fail on performance reports and promotion records. Therefore, PFT scores can affect promotions just like Master’s degrees and testing currently affect the officer and enlisted promotions. Second, commanders have to give airmen more than the 4.5 hours a week of work time to get in shape. Currently, too many organizations look down on the individual who spends a lot time at the gym and rewards the individual who spends no time at the gym, but can write an amazing report. The AF needs well-rounded individuals and fitness is as important as all other job skills. Therefore, the AF fitness test had some problems and needed to change, but the real problem lies in the average airman’s attitude toward fitness and until the AF follows the Army’s lead and makes it important part of our lives it does not matter what you do to the fitness test.

Maj Todd Lafortune
Student, Command and General Staff College
U.S. Army Combined Arms Center
Fort Leavenworth, Kansas


For over 50 years the USAF performed its mission in an absolutely stunning fashion with just the very basics of an annual PT requirement.

Post 9-11, in a desperate bid for attention where senior leadership tries to remake Airmen as "Warriors", and tries to emulate big brother Army, the mission suddenly doesn't get handled so well. This could be a complete coincidence. But chunky, beer-swilling men who struggled to knock out their annual 1.5 mile run didn't accidentally load nukes onto a plane and fly it around the country.

Senior leaders say we need to be "Fit to Fight". Well, the vast majority of the USAF doesn't "fight".

Senior leaders say being fit will keep the mission from failing downrange. Show me one single solitary instance where the mission in OIF or OEF has failed because of a lack of skinny people that can run fast.

Senior leaders say being fit reduces long term costs for health care. Wrong again - on average the longer you live, the costlier the care. From a purely financial standpoint, military folks do the DOD a favor by dying relatively soon after retirement.

I like doing PT, but it's not the be-all-end-all measuring stick of how an Airman can contribute to the mission. Unfortunately, the USAF has once again taken a good idea, beat it into the ground, taken it to extremes, and f#cked it up. I think I can speak for all of my subordinates when I say to "big AF", "Stop the madness! Pick a program that works and stick with it! Listen to the goddamn scientists you shelled out tons of money to! Don't you realize that everytime you make yet another change, we lose just a little bit more faith in your leadership ability? You're entrusted with prosecuting the air portion of the US's National Military Strategy and you can't even implement a PT program, a PT uniform, or a duty uniform without numerous screw ups???"

[LOAL-D]

For over 50 years the USAF performed its mission in an absolutely stunning fashion with just the very basics of an annual PT requirement.

Post 9-11, in a desperate bid for attention where senior leadership tries to remake Airmen as "Warriors", and tries to emulate big brother Army, the mission suddenly doesn't get handled so well. This could be a complete coincidence. But chunky, beer-swilling men who struggled to knock out their annual 1.5 mile run didn't accidentally load nukes onto a plane and fly it around the country.

Senior leaders say we need to be "Fit to Fight". Well, the vast majority of the USAF doesn't "fight".

Senior leaders say being fit will keep the mission from failing downrange. Show me one single solitary instance where the mission in OIF or OEF has failed because of a lack of skinny people that can run fast.

Senior leaders say being fit reduces long term costs for health care. Wrong again - on average the longer you live, the costlier the care. From a purely financial standpoint, military folks do the DOD a favor by dying relatively soon after retirement.

I like doing PT, but it's not the be-all-end-all measuring stick of how an Airman can contribute to the mission. Unfortunately, the USAF has once again taken a good idea, beat it into the ground, taken it to extremes, and f#cked it up. I think I can speak for all of my subordinates when I say to "big AF", "Stop the madness! Pick a program that works and stick with it! Listen to the goddamn scientists you shelled out tons of money to! Don't you realize that everytime you make yet another change, we lose just a little bit more faith in your leadership ability? You're entrusted with prosecuting the air portion of the US's National Military Strategy and you can't even implement a PT program, a PT uniform, or a duty uniform without numerous screw ups???"

Amen my brother!!!! And Major Army Air Force Lafortune?...stop drinking that kool-aid and be proud of the service you are in....

[Raptor81]

“The views expressed in this discussion are those of the author and do not reflect the official policy or position of the Department of the Air Force, Department of the Army, Department of Defense, or the U.S. Government.?”

As an AF student in the Command & General Staff College at Fort Leavenworth it amazes me how far the AF still needs to go when compared to the Army in developing a physical fitness mindset. It is refreshing that the AF is willing to change a fitness test, which is not working, but these changes will not change the average airman’s attitude towards physical fitness until more changes occur. The Army’s PFT is not much different than the AF, but what I am referring to is how the Army has institutionalized fitness to where the soldier understands it is a part of their job description to be physically fit. First, the AF needs to have actual scores, not just pass/fail on performance reports and promotion records. Therefore, PFT scores can affect promotions just like Master’s degrees and testing currently affect the officer and enlisted promotions. Second, commanders have to give airmen more than the 4.5 hours a week of work time to get in shape. Currently, too many organizations look down on the individual who spends a lot time at the gym and rewards the individual who spends no time at the gym, but can write an amazing report. The AF needs well-rounded individuals and fitness is as important as all other job skills. Therefore, the AF fitness test had some problems and needed to change, but the real problem lies in the average airman’s attitude toward fitness and until the AF follows the Army’s lead and makes it important part of our lives it does not matter what you do to the fitness test.

Maj Todd Lafortune
Student, Command and General Staff College
U.S. Army Combined Arms Center
Fort Leavenworth, Kansas

That's exactly the Army's viewpoint on fitness and it's the pitfall that a lot of people fall into when you look at the Air Force's PT requirement. The main thing that bugs me is i'm not a gym rat. I don't work out 20 times a week and above all, i'm not a Olympic Track star so why test me like i am one? The AF made the waist measurement better but then they screwed up the pushups and situps. They fixed the main problem people had with the current test and then they screwed up another part of the test. I'm sorry, but i have a life outside of work and the gym. I like spending time with my girlfriend instead of being locked inside a gym for 3 hours a day, 9 days a week. I'm sick of doing more with less and being required to workout. While i'm working out, who's doing my job? NO ONE because of the "do more with less." The AF's PT Test came from INSIDE the Air Force, that's why it's so messed up. I'm almost ready to go to AFSA have them go up to Congress and argue that the AF can't adequetly test it's members for physical fitness. Check the current fitness charts to the new charts. You're asking me, a 28 year old male, to perform at the same level of an 18 year old male. The 18-25 year range on the current PT Test maxes pushups at 62. The new chart for under 30 maxes pushups at 67. I believe it was Chief McKinley(i don't think that's spelled right) that wanted to implement this new PT Test and guess what? HE GOT OUT BEFORE IT TOOK EFFECT!!!!!!! He already knew it was going to be FUBAR so he bolted. What does that tell me about accountability? He passed on this screwed up fitness chart on to Chief Roy and I really hope Chief Roy takes a good look at it and decides it's unfair to the AVERAGE human being.

[air1986]

That's exactly the Army's viewpoint on fitness and it's the pitfall that a lot of people fall into when you look at the Air Force's PT requirement. The main thing that bugs me is i'm not a gym rat. I don't work out 20 times a week and above all, i'm not a Olympic Track star so why test me like i am one? The AF made the waist measurement better but then they screwed up the pushups and situps. They fixed the main problem people had with the current test and then they screwed up another part of the test. I'm sorry, but i have a life outside of work and the gym. I like spending time with my girlfriend instead of being locked inside a gym for 3 hours a day, 9 days a week. I'm sick of doing more with less and being required to workout. While i'm working out, who's doing my job? NO ONE because of the "do more with less." The AF's PT Test came from INSIDE the Air Force, that's why it's so messed up. I'm almost ready to go to AFSA have them go up to Congress and argue that the AF can't adequetly test it's members for physical fitness. Check the current fitness charts to the new charts. You're asking me, a 28 year old male, to perform at the same level of an 18 year old male. The 18-25 year range on the current PT Test maxes pushups at 62. The new chart for under 30 maxes pushups at 67. I believe it was Chief McKinley(i don't think that's spelled right) that wanted to implement this new PT Test and guess what? HE GOT OUT BEFORE IT TOOK EFFECT!!!!!!! He already knew it was going to be FUBAR so he bolted. What does that tell me about accountability? He passed on this screwed up fitness chart on to Chief Roy and I really hope Chief Roy takes a good look at it and decides it's unfair to the AVERAGE human being.

Its funny i was discussing this earlier with a coworker. He new he was retiring so why not change things around, they are not his problem anymore but it does benefit some including myself I am actually motivated for my test in mar 2010 . Yes he bettered the service with PT but its carried away like i said in a previous post. I don't mind it PT makes me feel better and i shed alot of weight this year 20+ but when i turn on my tv and service related news is on and is nothing but AF pt AF PT AF PT its a tad bit carried away. Hell even The Air Force times every issue has something with PT on the cover. Even AFN commercials its PT this PT that, every segment has a dude from the HAWC giving tips on how to run better or eat this instead of that at this and but yet they still continue to serve french fries and onion rings in the chow hall. I don't know i guess im tired of seeing everything PT related anymore. I think everyone in PACAF and around the AF gets the damn point.

Disclaimer: I am bitching about the advertising and the constant reminding not the actual program as for the test i will conqur when i take the NEW test in 2010 :) I already passed my 09 test

[Texpat]

Gender reassignment surgery is still an option. It'll give you a few extra minutes on the run and reduce the number of required pushups and situps.

Good luck

[Stang5150]

Funny, I was just in the CCQ getting taped for my PT test and I overheard one of the guys that works in there talking to the secretary. The secretary was asking why this Capt's decoration was being downgraded and the response from the clerk was "The General does not recommend decorations if the member is not CURRENT on their PT test." Not that the Capt has failed a PT test but because he is not CURRENT??? What the heck kind of logic is that??

[Capt Alfredo]

Currently, too many organizations look down on the individual who spends a lot time at the gym and rewards the individual who spends no time at the gym, but can write an amazing report.

And rightly so. I DO NOT CARE how fast my analyst can run, but I sure as hell care how well he can build a briefing or write an analytical product.



The AF needs well-rounded individuals and fitness is as important as all other job skills.

No, it is not. You cannot prove your statement to be true for an overwhelming majority of the force. Fitness is not nearly as important as job competence, unless your job actually REQUIRES a level of fitness to perform it. For most of us, it does not.

It's thinking like this that has screwed up my beloved AF.

[Shrike]

And rightly so. I DO NOT CARE how fast my analyst can run, but I sure as hell care how well he can build a briefing or write an analytical product.




No, it is not. You cannot prove your statement to be true for an overwhelming majority of the force. Fitness is not nearly as important as job competence, unless your job actually REQUIRES a level of fitness to perform it. For most of us, it does not.

It's thinking like this that has screwed up my beloved AF.

Yeah, well it's thinking like yours that enabled 50+ years of awesomely effective Air Power, so put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Oh, wait...

:D

[LOAL-D]

And rightly so. I DO NOT CARE how fast my analyst can run, but I sure as hell care how well he can build a briefing or write an analytical product.




No, it is not. You cannot prove your statement to be true for an overwhelming majority of the force. Fitness is not nearly as important as job competence, unless your job actually REQUIRES a level of fitness to perform it. For most of us, it does not.

It's thinking like this that has screwed up my beloved AF.

Don't worry all us fat worthless old-timers are retiring and then the Air Force can be made up of bean pole/gym rats, and everyone can put on their dress blues and make their own recruiting poster...

--and the AF can hire us as contractors and we'll get the job done while they're at the track...:tongue:

[Measure Man]

Funny, I was just in the CCQ getting taped for my PT test and I overheard one of the guys that works in there talking to the secretary. The secretary was asking why this Capt's decoration was being downgraded and the response from the clerk was "The General does not recommend decorations if the member is not CURRENT on their PT test." Not that the Capt has failed a PT test but because he is not CURRENT??? What the heck kind of logic is that??

We have the same policy here...

I think the logic is...well, unless you have a good reason, when you're due you need to go find a PTL and schedule your test. It is an individual responsibility here, no one is going to pester you to do your test.

[Raptor81]

Don't worry all us fat worthless old-timers are retiring and then the Air Force can be made up of bean pole/gym rats, and everyone can put on their dress blues and make their own recruiting poster...

--and the AF can hire us as contractors and we'll get the job done while they're at the track...:tongue:

Yeah, they can hire the retiring personnel as contractors for the fit testers at the HAWC :eek:


We have the same policy here...

I think the logic is...well, unless you have a good reason, when you're due you need to go find a PTL and schedule your test. It is an individual responsibility here, no one is going to pester you to do your test.

I'm pretty sure that your flight/squadron PTL's can no longer test you individually. The whole integrity issue is to blame for this. Yes, i've had a flight chief in the past ORDER 1 of our flight PTL's to pass him on his PT Test just so he could retire with that last firewall 5 EPR. Yes, there was threats of lowering the PTL's EPR lower if he didn't do it.


All quotes aside, i didn't sign up to be a gym rat...I signed up to defend my country. Me spending all my free time at the gym leaves no time for myself to do my hobbies, call back home and talk to my parents or my friends and above all, it LEAVES NO TIME TO DO THE MISSION! I look at it like this:

WoW players are similar to Gym Rats, they both have no life.

The primary AF mission is to lift weights THEN the 2ndary is to bomb the h3ll out of 3rd world countries. Notice that maintenance and other personnelists ARE NOT part of that mission.

The AF puts double standards into the vast majority of the AFI's(PT Program is now among them).

If you're an E-7 or above, the AFI's and TO's are the same thing as toilet paper.

If you're above the rank of O-3 or E-6, you have zero accountability and can "shift the blame" to your subordinates.

There are no such things as mistakes, you made a decision not to do something.

[Measure Man]

Yeah, they can hire the retiring personnel as contractors for the fit testers at the HAWC :eek:



I'm pretty sure that your flight/squadron PTL's can no longer test you individually. The whole integrity issue is to blame for this.

First I heard of that..I tested individually in June...as does everyone else here on the MAJCOM staff


Yes, i've had a flight chief in the past ORDER 1 of our flight PTL's to pass him on his PT Test just so he could retire with that last firewall 5 EPR. Yes, there was threats of lowering the PTL's EPR lower if he didn't do it.

The PTL never heard of a chain of command?

In my last unit we had an NCO and PTL conspire to make up a run time for the NCO (not sure if the NCO leaned on PTL or now, or the PTL offered to do it)...once we in supervision caught wind of it, NCO got an Art 15 and PTL got LOR/UIF and fired from PTL duty.


All quotes aside, i didn't sign up to be a gym rat...I signed up to defend my country. Me spending all my free time at the gym leaves no time for myself to do my hobbies, call back home and talk to my parents or my friends and above all, it LEAVES NO TIME TO DO THE MISSION! I look at it like this:

I do a lot of things I didn't sign up for...

I don't think you have to be a gym rat to pass the PT test...one hour 3-4 times a week should do it for most folks. On behalf of the AF, I apologize for interfering with your hobbies.


WoW players are similar to Gym Rats, they both have no life.

The primary AF mission is to lift weights THEN the 2ndary is to bomb the h3ll out of 3rd world countries. Notice that maintenance and other personnelists ARE NOT part of that mission.

What are you babbling about? Mx is not part of the mission? If there is some sarcasm here, I'm missing it.


The AF puts double standards into the vast majority of the AFI's(PT Program is now among them).

If you're an E-7 or above, the AFI's and TO's are the same thing as toilet paper.

Sorry, I don't see the double standard...I do my PT test every year...and have to pass just like everyone else...only difference is if I fail it will be a major freaking issue...would probably never get another CIP job and will discarded and labeled as ROAD and never again given a meaningful assignment...fortunately, I haven't failed.


If you're above the rank of O-3 or E-6, you have zero accountability and can "shift the blame" to your subordinates.

Wrong...


There are no such things as mistakes, you made a decision not to do something.

Not sure what this refers to...I mean there are mistakes and there are decisions not to do something...going overdue on PT is generally not a mistake, I'd agree with that.

[CrustySMSgt]

Funny, I was just in the CCQ getting taped for my PT test and I overheard one of the guys that works in there talking to the secretary. The secretary was asking why this Capt's decoration was being downgraded and the response from the clerk was "The General does not recommend decorations if the member is not CURRENT on their PT test." Not that the Capt has failed a PT test but because he is not CURRENT??? What the heck kind of logic is that??


We have the same policy here...

I think the logic is...well, unless you have a good reason, when you're due you need to go find a PTL and schedule your test. It is an individual responsibility here, no one is going to pester you to do your test.

What MM said...

Everyone knows when they are due... being noncurrent is the same as being poor fit.


Yeah, they can hire the retiring personnel as contractors for the fit testers at the HAWC :eek:



I'm pretty sure that your flight/squadron PTL's can no longer test you individually. The whole integrity issue is to blame for this. Yes, i've had a flight chief in the past ORDER 1 of our flight PTL's to pass him on his PT Test just so he could retire with that last firewall 5 EPR. Yes, there was threats of lowering the PTL's EPR lower if he didn't do it.


All quotes aside, i didn't sign up to be a gym rat...I signed up to defend my country. Me spending all my free time at the gym leaves no time for myself to do my hobbies, call back home and talk to my parents or my friends and above all, it LEAVES NO TIME TO DO THE MISSION! I look at it like this:


If you were aware of this attempt at coercing a PTL into passing a flight chief, you also failed that PTL by not turning that individual in. I guaruntee if it was true, there is no way that flgiht chief would have remained in a position to influence that PTLs EPR. The PoS flight chief abused his power and should have been held accountable.

It doesn't take a gym rat to pass our joke of a PT test. it takes someone who has put a minimal level of effort into being fit. It is a condition of employment... the not tucking in your boot mutiny was a one in a million occurance... so sitting zaround bitching about PT isn't going to change anything. While I agree it is just ONE standard, and not the single measure of an Airman, the consequences for not meeting that standards come at a published price... so you've got two choices, be a proffesional protestor and pay the price, or get out & go for a job a few times a week, do a few situp s& pushups, and you'll be just fine.

[Raptor81]

I don't think you have to be a gym rat to pass the PT test...one hour 3-4 times a week should do it for most folks. On behalf of the AF, I apologize for interfering with your hobbies.

What are you babbling about? Mx is not part of the mission? If there is some sarcasm here, I'm missing it.

Sorry, I don't see the double standard...I do my PT test every year...and have to pass just like everyone else...only difference is if I fail it will be a major freaking issue...would probably never get another CIP job and will discarded and labeled as ROAD and never again given a meaningful assignment...fortunately, I haven't failed.

Not sure what this refers to...I mean there are mistakes and there are decisions not to do something...going overdue on PT is generally not a mistake, I'd agree with that.

I can work out 7 days a week for 2 hrs a day and not improve. I know this because i've done it for 4 months. I stopped because i saw what it was doing to me...making me worse at something that used to be natural to me back in the 7th grade. I could run a mile in a little over 5 minutes back then and do 100 pushups easy(but wasn't timed). Now in the present day, the PT Test has gotten harder and harder the last 4 times they updated the charts. When i 1st came in, it was:

2 mile run in under 18 mins across the boards for males
45 pushups in 2 minutes across the boards again
35 situps in 2 minutes and again, across the boards

If you met that criteria, you passsed. If you didn't, you failed. Since the EPR is pass/fail, maybe our PT Test should be pass/fail because what's the point in the percentage? The percentage doesn't say anything because it's not part of the EPR. A lot of people want the % on the EPR but that'll just add problems later.

As far as i can see, the PT Program can go to the EO Office. I mean, someone fails the PT Test and now you have means to turn them down for PCS? Give me a break. I can also think of other legal points that the new charts can be thrown out but won't go into detail.

The way the PT Test should be is based on what your job is with a "catch all" for the rest of the force. The generic PT Test i had when i came in would be the catch all. This hardcore test that's coming out next year would be for the jobs that require high amounts of phyical activity as in SFS, PJ's, Combat Control and those other jobs similar. Forcing someone that works 12 hrs a day, 6 days a week to do a hardcore PT Test just doesn't make sense.

When i talked about Mx not being part of the mission, it was in reference that all Mx will be privatized in the near future.

The double standard in the PT Program is you have to have a 75% to pass the fit test(1 standard) and the other part of the PT Test requires you to get better than a min. score(2nd standard). Look at the PT Charts and look for the asterisks next to some of the scores. That's the min. score needed in order to "pass" that catagory. In my earlier post, i mentioned the following:

1.5 mile was ran in 9 minutes = 60 pts
34 inch waist = 20 pts
67 pushups in 1 min = 10 pts
41 situps(below min score) = 5.5 pts

total = 95.5% but fails the PT Test because it didn't meet the double standard.

I'm on a profile right now and can't test by the "normal" PT Test and my form 422 hasn't come down from the HAWC to let me know how i can test. What i ment by "there are no mistakes and that they're more like conscience decisions" is based on what someone told me when i forgot something. They said "you didn't forget to do it, you made a conscience decision not to do it." I was also made out to be the scape goat in my flight for being on a profile now for 2 months for spraining my ankle really bad. I'm lucky i didn't break my ankle but i can see now that i'd be better off if i did. It's sad that someone's flight can make them feel like they should've broken their ankle and threatening a lower EPR because i can't test. I actually had to go back to the hospital because my ankle is still swollen and i still have some pain.

[Raptor81]

If you were aware of this attempt at coercing a PTL into passing a flight chief, you also failed that PTL by not turning that individual in. I guaruntee if it was true, there is no way that flgiht chief would have remained in a position to influence that PTLs EPR. The PoS flight chief abused his power and should have been held accountable.



I was not aware until after that flight chief had retired.

[CrustySMSgt]

Responses bold inside quote:


I can work out 7 days a week for 2 hrs a day and not improve.

Then you are doing something wrong! Either your body isn't recovering because you haven't taken time off to recover, or you are working out at a maintenance level... basic biology shows if you work muscles, they will get stronger.


When i 1st came in, it was:

2 mile run in under 18 mins across the boards for males
45 pushups in 2 minutes across the boards again
35 situps in 2 minutes and again, across the boards

Huh? Were you in the Army... or some super secret AF PT test program?


The way the PT Test should be is based on what your job is with a "catch all" for the rest of the force. The generic PT Test i had when i came in would be the catch all. This hardcore test that's coming out next year would be for the jobs that require high amounts of phyical activity as in SFS, PJ's, Combat Control and those other jobs similar. Forcing someone that works 12 hrs a day, 6 days a week to do a hardcore PT Test just doesn't make sense.

When we all start doing a "hard core PT test, you can bitch.

When i talked about Mx not being part of the mission, it was in reference that all Mx will be privatized in the near future.

Not much privatized MX downrange... still need blue suiters in MX, and always will.

The double standard in the PT Program is you have to have a 75% to pass the fit test(1 standard) and the other part of the PT Test requires you to get better than a min. score(2nd standard). Look at the PT Charts and look for the asterisks next to some of the scores. That's the min. score needed in order to "pass" that catagory. In my earlier post, i mentioned the following:

1.5 mile was ran in 9 minutes = 60 pts
34 inch waist = 20 pts
67 pushups in 1 min = 10 pts
41 situps(below min score) = 5.5 pts

total = 95.5% but fails the PT Test because it didn't meet the double standard.

The horse is dead... there are minimums for a reason... I'll grant that if you score the min in each catagory, then it should equal a 75... but agree there should be minimums in each element to assure all around fitness.


I'm on a profile right now and can't test by the "normal" PT Test and my form 422 hasn't come down from the HAWC to let me know how i can test. What i ment by "there are no mistakes and that they're more like conscience decisions" is based on what someone told me when i forgot something. They said "you didn't forget to do it, you made a conscience decision not to do it." I was also made out to be the scape goat in my flight for being on a profile now for 2 months for spraining my ankle really bad. I'm lucky i didn't break my ankle but i can see now that i'd be better off if i did. It's sad that someone's flight can make them feel like they should've broken their ankle and threatening a lower EPR because i can't test. I actually had to go back to the hospital because my ankle is still swollen and i still have some pain.

Something is wrong if you have been on a profile for 2 months and haven't gotten a 422. It is YOUR responsibility to get to the HAWC and get it... because it will tell you what routine PT you are allowed to do based on your DLC. You CAN test... with at least a waist measurement. And a sprain doesn't last 2 months, so it if is still swollen and sore, you should get it checked out. Sounds like you're happy sitting back and bitching about being the scapegoat and not actually getting in the reg, acknowledging YOUR responsibilities, and doing what YOU are supposed to do.

[Raptor81]

Something is wrong if you have been on a profile for 2 months and haven't gotten a 422. It is YOUR responsibility to get to the HAWC and get it... because it will tell you what routine PT you are allowed to do based on your DLC. You CAN test... with at least a waist measurement. And a sprain doesn't last 2 months, so it if is still swollen and sore, you should get it checked out. Sounds like you're happy sitting back and bitching about being the scapegoat and not actually getting in the reg, acknowledging YOUR responsibilities, and doing what YOU are supposed to do.


I had to go back to the hospital for my ankle. I've been on 2 profiles and my body does take a little longer to heal/recover than the average person. And no, i'm not happy sitting back crying foul. I'd rather be running and doing everything else but i also want to get my ankle back up to where it needs to be so i don't constantly sprain it over and over again. BTW, i am doing what i need to do TO GET BETTER. Maybe before you posted, you should've gotten the more indepth information before making your 1 sided post. It would've helped you out. Do you know what it's like not being able to walk normally? I'm finally getting back to "normal" and all you wanna do IS make me the scapegoat.

And as far the the PT test when i came in, check it out. It's been 7-8 years ago and if you are a SMSgt, then you know about the bike test and how simple(and wrong) it is. I see a trend in the PT area, do you?

Bike Test > Ran in combat boots > 2 mile run, pushups and situps > 1.5 mile run and "charts" to go with it > revamped charts to include BMI for the ppl that complained waist was so unfair > hardcore PT test with nearly impossible charts because the AF wants only 1% of it's force to get 100%

What's higher then hardcore? It's a little thing called IMPOSSIBLE. Next thing you know, they'll want us to run 1.5 miles in 5 minutes, do 100 pushups in 30 seconds and do 130 situps in 30 seconds.

Now, the 1 thing i'll agree on is testing twice a year. And i'll somewhat agree with the min. scores in each area but the pushups and situps min. scores should be switched around. The other thing i'd fight for is if you reach the min. scores is your score is automatically bumped up to 75%. It's the double standard that was written into the program because someone can argue that they met all the min. scores required to pass so therefore, they pass. I know the AFI isn't out yet so maybe it'll clarify but you have to keep in mind that the AFI has to be: clearly written, concise and free of any other interpetations. Right now, anyone can interpet the charts so i'm going to wait for the AFI to come out before i agree or disagree with the ENTIRE program.

[CrustySMSgt]

I'm on a profile right now and can't test by the "normal" PT Test and my form 422 hasn't come down from the HAWC to let me know how i can test. What i ment by "there are no mistakes and that they're more like conscience decisions" is based on what someone told me when i forgot something. They said "you didn't forget to do it, you made a conscience decision not to do it." I was also made out to be the scape goat in my flight for being on a profile now for 2 months for spraining my ankle really bad. I'm lucky i didn't break my ankle but i can see now that i'd be better off if i did. It's sad that someone's flight can make them feel like they should've broken their ankle and threatening a lower EPR because i can't test. I actually had to go back to the hospital because my ankle is still swollen and i still have some pain.


I had to go back to the hospital for my ankle. I've been on 2 profiles and my body does take a little longer to heal/recover than the average person. And no, i'm not happy sitting back crying foul. I'd rather be running and doing everything else but i also want to get my ankle back up to where it needs to be so i don't constantly sprain it over and over again. BTW, i am doing what i need to do TO GET BETTER. Maybe before you posted, you should've gotten the more indepth information before making your 1 sided post. It would've helped you out. Do you know what it's like not being able to walk normally? I'm finally getting back to "normal" and all you wanna do IS make me the scapegoat.

Bike Test > Ran in combat boots > 2 mile run, pushups and situps > 1.5 mile run and "charts" to go with it > revamped charts to include BMI for the ppl that complained waist was so unfair > hardcore PT test with nearly impossible charts because the AF wants only 1% of it's force to get 100%

What's higher then hardcore? It's a little thing called IMPOSSIBLE. Next thing you know, they'll want us to run 1.5 miles in 5 minutes, do 100 pushups in 30 seconds and do 130 situps in 30 seconds.

Right now, anyone can interpet the charts so i'm going to wait for the AFI to come out before i agree or disagree with the ENTIRE program.

I used the information YOU gave in your original post... "A PROFILE" would indicate ONE profile, not multiple...

Your posts remind me of the Friends episode with Ross and his use of the "finger quotations." Learn what "scapegoat" and "double standard" mean before you throw them about in an attempt to make sense.

And unless I spent a few years between the bike test and the current PT program in a coma, I don't recall any official PT program involving running in boots, running two miles, or directing pushups & situps. And again, running 1.5 miles at any of the currently directed paces, and the minimums for p/u & s/u are FAR from hardcore by any standard.

But I will give you credit for reseving judgement until the AFI comes out... not that you agreeing or disagreeing with the ENTIRE program makes any difference whatsoever...

[Measure Man]

I can work out 7 days a week for 2 hrs a day and not improve. I know this because i've done it for 4 months. I stopped because i saw what it was doing to me...making me worse at something that used to be natural to me back in the 7th grade. I could run a mile in a little over 5 minutes back then and do 100 pushups easy(but wasn't timed).

Bull...

I mean about the not improving with working out that much..


Now in the present day, the PT Test has gotten harder and harder the last 4 times they updated the charts. When i 1st came in, it was:

2 mile run in under 18 mins across the boards for males
45 pushups in 2 minutes across the boards again
35 situps in 2 minutes and again, across the boards

When did you come in? I came in in 1983 and never saw those standards.


If you met that criteria, you passsed. If you didn't, you failed. Since the EPR is pass/fail, maybe our PT Test should be pass/fail because what's the point in the percentage? The percentage doesn't say anything because it's not part of the EPR. A lot of people want the % on the EPR but that'll just add problems later.

I would be good with pass/fail...


As far as i can see, the PT Program can go to the EO Office. I mean, someone fails the PT Test and now you have means to turn them down for PCS? Give me a break. I can also think of other legal points that the new charts can be thrown out but won't go into detail.

EO, huh? Protected categories under EO are race, color, national origin, religion, or sex. Which one of these does PT unfairly discriminate against?


The way the PT Test should be is based on what your job is with a "catch all" for the rest of the force. The generic PT Test i had when i came in would be the catch all. This hardcore test that's coming out next year would be for the jobs that require high amounts of phyical activity as in SFS, PJ's, Combat Control and those other jobs similar. Forcing someone that works 12 hrs a day, 6 days a week to do a hardcore PT Test just doesn't make sense.

That is the way it is done... the PT standard IS the catch all...some AFSCs have additional requirements tacked on to that.


The double standard in the PT Program is you have to have a 75% to pass the fit test(1 standard) and the other part of the PT Test requires you to get better than a min. score(2nd standard). Look at the PT Charts and look for the asterisks next to some of the scores. That's the min. score needed in order to "pass" that catagory. In my earlier post, i mentioned the following:

1.5 mile was ran in 9 minutes = 60 pts
34 inch waist = 20 pts
67 pushups in 1 min = 10 pts
41 situps(below min score) = 5.5 pts

total = 95.5% but fails the PT Test because it didn't meet the double standard.

Well...the purpose of the double standard is this: up till now, you had skinny beanpole guys that could run...and they could pass without doing ANY situps or ANY pushups. That is not a good measure of overall fitness...it only means they can run good. We trying to capture at least minimal fitness across the board...and yeah, there are no doubt better ways to do it in somone's opinion. Get 10 fitness experts in a room and they'll have 10 different ways of doing the "best" crunches.


I'm on a profile right now and can't test by the "normal" PT Test and my form 422 hasn't come down from the HAWC to let me know how i can test. What i ment by "there are no mistakes and that they're more like conscience decisions" is based on what someone told me when i forgot something. They said "you didn't forget to do it, you made a conscience decision not to do it." I was also made out to be the scape goat in my flight for being on a profile now for 2 months for spraining my ankle really bad. I'm lucky i didn't break my ankle but i can see now that i'd be better off if i did. It's sad that someone's flight can make them feel like they should've broken their ankle and threatening a lower EPR because i can't test. I actually had to go back to the hospital because my ankle is still swollen and i still have some pain.

A lower score or were they going to mark you "does not meet"? If they were going to mark you down a block under "How does ratee meet standards"...I think that is justified... I mean, how can you meet standards if you haven't tested?

If they marked you as "does not meet" and you didn't even test...then you have a case for appeal.

It's like one time...I wrote someone a 4 when they spent most of the reporting period in the hospital...he was pissed cuz was like...'how can you mark me down when I can't even be at work, through no fault of my own"...but then it's like "Hey, how can you excel above your peers when you aren't here?" I mean, you at least have to be at work to EARN a 5, right? never matter whether the absence was beyond your control or not...at the end of the day, there wasn't any wood on your woodpile.

[Measure Man]

I had to go back to the hospital for my ankle. I've been on 2 profiles and my body does take a little longer to heal/recover than the average person. .

You body takes longer to heal...and does not improve with 2 hour workouts, 7 days a week.

Do you have some kind of disease?

[inspector42]

[QUOTE=Raptor81;274714]I can work out 7 days a week for 2 hrs a day and not improve. I know this because i've done it for 4 months. I stopped because i saw what it was doing to me...making me worse at something that used to be natural to me back in the 7th grade. I could run a mile in a little over 5 minutes back then and do 100 pushups easy(but wasn't timed). Now in the present day, the PT Test has gotten harder and harder the last 4 times they updated the charts. When i 1st came in, it was:

even marathon runners only workout 3-4 times a week. Your body needs time to recover usually 48 hours per muscle group.

[CrustySMSgt]

even marathon runners only workout 3-4 times a week. Your body needs time to recover usually 48 hours per muscle group.

I've only run 2, so I am certainly no expert... but most train more than 3-4 times a week. Usually training is run 4-5 times a week, and one day of cross-training, where you don't run, but lift a little, ride a bike, or do something that loosens you up and works other muscles.

http://www.halhigdon.com/marathon/Mar00index.htm

[ArmyBrave1]

I am amazed at this thread. I am thinking of joining the Army or the Air Force.

Have you ever thought about what other countries or more accurately, our enemies' army or air force p.t. standards are ?

In some of those countries if a man was to complain about his p.t. time/scores then he would be shot in the head because the enemy maintains higher standards of " vicious " p.t. requirements than we do. At a minimum a really hardcore beating ( or cruel hazings )

I would say, get stronger than your enemy minus the physical injuries but if your job does not allow you enough time for p.t. then your crew needs to sit down and talk to the unit commander about having more time for p.t because someday that could be a matter of life and death.

You also need to look at it from the officer's perspective. It could be possible that the DoD is slowly raising our p.t. readiness to stronger levels.

Just do your best then you will not have to worry about passing p.t. If you really want to pass the p.t. do two or three times the normal p.t. standards indicated on the new AF p.t. standards and you will be good to go.

[Shadowless]

I am amazed at this thread. I am thinking of joining the Army or the Air Force.

Have you ever thought about what other countries or more accurately, our enemies' army or air force p.t. standards are ?

In some of those countries if a man was to complain about his p.t. time/scores then he would be shot in the head because the enemy maintains higher standards of " vicious " p.t. requirements than we do. At a minimum a really hardcore beating ( or cruel hazings )

I would say, get stronger than your enemy minus the physical injuries but if your job does not allow you enough time for p.t. then your crew needs to sit down and talk to the unit commander about having more time for p.t because someday that could be a matter of life and death.

You also need to look at it from the officer's perspective. It could be possible that the DoD is slowly raising our p.t. readiness to stronger levels.

Just do your best then you will not have to worry about passing p.t. If you really want to pass the p.t. do two or three times the normal p.t. standards indicated on the new AF p.t. standards and you will be good to go.

Are you even in the military?

You want us to do two or three times the normal p/t standard? I would like to meet the man who can know about over a 100 CORRECT pushups in one minute, or who can run a mile and a half in 5-6 minutes.

Maybe I will take your advice, me and my 'crew' will go sit down with the base commander and tell him we need more time on duty for pt, screw the mission, screw the Air Force wide manning issues, screw the whole doing more with less, because PT is that important.

[ArmyBrave1]

Are you even in the military?

Not yet but I will be soon.

You want us to do two or three times the normal p/t standard? I would like to meet the man who can know about over a 100 CORRECT pushups in one minute, or who can run a mile and a half in 5-6 minutes.

I think you missed the point. The point is to maintain a high state of physical fitness and have or display no concern for worries of passing the p.t. standards.

Maybe I will take your advice, me and my 'crew' will go sit down with the base commander and tell him we need more time on duty for pt, screw the mission, screw the Air Force wide manning issues, screw the whole doing more with less, because PT is that important.

I never said to ignore the vital duties of the Army or Air Force.

What is wrong with about 3 - 4 hours of p.t. from 0530 - 0800 then after dinner other 3-4 hr of p.t. before bed ?

This really was the normal p.t. standards during World War II.

From my understanding after boot camp, most units spend 20 mintunes of p.t. then that is it for the day ?

What I am saying is we need to think about other countries ( our enemies ) and their p.t. standards.

And one more thing do not tell me that I am not in the military yet and not allowed to have a say because this country was founded on the citizen-soldier model. Not the another way around.

I except the U.S. Armed Forces to offer the toughest military training in the world and to stay on top of what the bad guys are doing even if it is p.t.-wise.

[Shadowless]

I never said to ignore the vital duties of the Army or Air Force.

Yes you did, you want the Air Force to give out 3-4hrs of PT in the morning and another 3-4 hrs of pt before bed? That would be an entire work shift for some, when would the real work get done?

What is wrong with about 3 - 4 hours of p.t. from 0530 - 0800 then after dinner other 3-4 hr of p.t. before bed ?

I can't tell if you are being serious, or if you are 17 years old in their last year of high school. Anyone with half a brain would laugh at your statement here.

This really was the normal p.t. standards during World War II.


How old are you?

From my understanding after boot camp, most units spend 20 mintunes of p.t. then that is it for the day ?

Where are you getting this information, or are you just making it up?

What I am saying is we need to think about other countries ( our enemies ) and their p.t. standards.


Do you have a list of all these standards you speak of?

And one more thing do not tell me that I am not in the military yet and not allowed to have a say because this country was founded on the citizen-soldier model. Not the another way around.

You have the right to say whatever you wish, but atleast back it up with some facts or make some sense. From my point of view you expect people to work out 8hrs a day, work 8-12hrs a day and still find time for sleep, extra duties, LIFE, family ect...


I except the U.S. Armed Forces to offer the toughest military training in the world and to stay on top of what the bad guys are doing even if it is p.t.-wise.

This is the worlds greatest Air Force, by far.

[ArmyBrave1]

0530-0800 is plenty of p.t. time then normal working hours are from 0800 to 16:00 or 18:00 then after dinner from 18:30 to 21:00 and lights out.

In the civilain world this would mean from 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. are your normal working hours. P.T. are done at sunrise and sunset hours.

In high school back then there was gym class for 2 hours and today's schools would be very lucky to have 20 or maybe 30 min. tops for gym class. 40 min. would be the max.

Who is laughing now with so many fat kids today and way back then everybody was thin and very strong ?

Your granddaddy would laugh at your statement that today's high school kids are physically fit.

Your football team probably would not hold a candle to these guy's football team in the old days.

No I don't have a list of our enemy's p.t. schedule or how many pull-ups, push-ups they are required to do. That probably would be military intelligence's job.

Yes, I have the right to speak out on poor p.t. standards and for military personnel with families, they are excepted to do their jobs. There will always be time made for the family whenever possible to have some downtime on 30 days paid vacation. Use that time wisely.

No stress cards and no bullshit excuses. The military should mean serious business.

The U.S. Air Force may be the best in the world at the moment from a technological point of view but Can your men including yourself actually back up the fact that all of you are the world's best at p.t. and hand to hand combat ? I seriously doubt it.

Other countries have much tougher p.t. standards and they can actually back it up with facts. They are serious p.t. studs right now.

It may not be what you want to hear but it's the truth and you should appreciate the fact that someone has the guts to speak up about the p.t. standards from the moment they enter boot camp.

With that said, I want the US Armed Forces and yes that includes the USAF to ACTUALLY be the world's best at everything in all that they do during the course of their military career.

[Shadowless]

0530-0800 is plenty of p.t. time then normal working hours are from 0800 to 16:00 or 18:00 then after dinner from 18:30 to 21:00 and lights out.

What planet are you from?

In the civilain world this would mean from 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. are your normal working hours. P.T. are done at sunrise and sunset hours.

The real military doesn't operate like this. Maybe certain jobs during peek periods of training. My guess, you have been watching to much tv, or to much navy seal specials.

In high school back then there was gym class for 2 hours and today's schools would be very lucky to have 20 or maybe 30 min. tops for gym class. 40 min. would be the max.

Gym class for two hours? Point those public schools out to me?

Who is laughing now with so many fat kids today and way back then everybody was thin and very strong ?

Very strong? I honestly could care less if parents allow their children to get fat.

Your granddaddy would laugh at your statement that today's high school kids are physically fit.

Why are you trying to compare high school fat kids to the Air Force?

Your football team probably would not hold a candle to these guy's football team in the old days.

No I don't have a list of our enemy's p.t. schedule or how many pull-ups, push-ups they are required to do. That probably would be military intelligence's job.

Yeah the intelligence are more worried about how many pushups terrorists can do instead of what target they are planning on attacking next. You sure got your information straight there.

Yes, I have the right to speak out on poor p.t. standards and for military personnel with families, they are excepted to do their jobs. There will always be time made for the family whenever possible to have some downtime on 30 days paid vacation. Use that time wisely.

So under your mind sight, you can only see your family 30 times a year? So you are saying every branch has a crappy pt standard? I challenge you to pass every branches PT test yourself, better yet, why don't you just join the Marines. [/COLOR]

No stress cards and no bullshit excuses. The military should mean serious business.

My gut tells me you would be the first to cry home for mommy and daddy at boot camp.

The U.S. Air Force may be the best in the world at the moment from a technological point of view but Can your men including yourself actually back up the fact that all of you are the world's best at p.t. and hand to hand combat ? I seriously doubt it.

You are just making yourself look foolish now.

Other countries have much tougher p.t. standards and they can actually back it up with facts. They are serious p.t. studs right now.

Again, where do you get this information? Youtube?

It may not be what you want to hear but it's the truth and you should appreciate the fact that someone has the guts to speak up about the p.t. standards from the moment they enter boot camp.

I look forward to you telling a T.I that the PT is too easy for you, I woud actually pay to see that. But the obvious route will be you sitting on your computer at home for the rest of your life talking about this and that and not backing it up.

With that said, I want the US Armed Forces and yes that includes the USAF to ACTUALLY be the world's best at everything in all that they do during the course of their military career.

Do you want me to dial your local Marine recruiter for you now?

[CrustySMSgt]

I am amazed at this thread. I am thinking of joining the Army or the Air Force.


I'd make a joke about you skipping the AF and just going to the Army... but I think they'd even laugh you out the door... my bet is you're a 12 year old who has spent too much time PTing your thumbs on your 360/PS3, and think you know what's what.

I'm with Shadowless... sounds like you've got Marine written all over you! When you're eligible to join in 4-5 years, you can get all the PT you want and more. Until then, stay out of grownn folk business. :rolleyes:

[ArmyBrave1]

Shadowless, you are missing the point.

This is exactly the kind of talk that gets run into the ground when it comes to p.t.

You are scared to have harder p.t. standards and you keep making excuses.

This is the World War II Army Physical Fitness Test FM 21-20.

http://www.ihpra.org/1946%20(World%20War%20II)%20Army%20Physical%20Fitn ess%20Test.htm

I graduated from high school a long time ago and have held down a job, sometimes two jobs.

I had to take care of a family member who was sick for a very long time. Now I can enlist and serve my country.

I do not play nintendo or playstation. I do not watch very much on youtube. I watch t.v. the old fashioned way. ( Military Channel )

Now I can enlist and serve my country. I except the military to maintain high standards.

Contrary to what you may believe about me. I will set an example when it comes to physical fitness and I will put those 18-20 year old kids to shame with their shabby p.t. scores.

My quote in bold:

military personnel with families, they are excepted to do their jobs. There will always be time made for the family whenever possible to have some downtime on 30 days paid vacation. Use that time wisely.

Your quote in bold:

So under your mind sight, you can only see your family 30 times a year?

You clearly are not in your right mind and fuming at having to do hardcore p.t. sessions. You have basically admitted you want easier p.t.

CrustySMSgt: I would have joined the U.S. Marine Corps if I was not taking care of an ill family member.

I was very angry when 9/11/01 happened. I was taking care of my mother.

If my mother was in good health then I would have been in the U.S. Marine Corps by now.

I only qualify for the Army or the Air Force due to my age. ( 30-40 yr old )

I went through alot of hell taking care of my family and now it is my time to serve my country.

For those who tried to run the p.t. thing in the ground. You have made an assumption.

You are talking to a man, in fact a real man who has worked very hard all his life.

It is high time the U.S. Armed Services raise the p.t. standards.

I have made it my business to hold myself to higher standards before entering the military.

You all should be ashamed of yourselves for trying to run the p.t. thing into the ground. This is not a one upmanship competition.

This is a matter of life and death and you, each of you should be striving for higher physical training standards beyond the minimum.

Stop with the whining and excuses. Conduct yourselves with a military bearing. Have a good day.

[CrustySMSgt]

Stop with the whining and excuses. Conduct yourself with a military bearing. Have a good day.


that's a hoot... someone with NO military experience (beyond watching the military channel) counseling those who serve on military bearing. :rolleyes:

I'll make you a deal... assuming you DO actually enlist, feel free to come back to this thread after serving for a year... and weigh in to the debate with an educated opinion based on experience. Until then, STFU. :cool:

[ArmyBrave1]

that's a hoot... someone with NO military experience (beyond watching the military channel) counseling those who serve on military bearing. :rolleyes:

Why did I hear about the stress cards ?

That is not even funny and it is not a hoot at all.

It does not matter if you are a civilian or in the military.

The military is meant to be a very physically demanding job.

I understand your point about a civilian speaking on military matters before entering the service. Physical training is serious business.

I'll make you a deal... assuming you DO actually enlist, feel free to come back to this thread after serving for a year... and weigh in to the debate with an educated opinion based on experience. Until then, STFU.

Fair enough.

[CrustySMSgt]

I understand your point about a civilian speaking on military matters before entering the service. Physical training is serious business.

Fair enough.

It is readily apparent that your "understanding" comes from too many hours spent watching all the hua shit on the military channel. News flash: the vast majority of the military as a whole ain't that hua... and an even smaller portion of the Air Force is. Being generally fit is important, for readiness, health, and stress relief. But it is not the top priority... learning and doing your job, and getting the mission is what pays the bills... and your fantasy of 6 hours of PT a day are clear evidence of your lack of grasp for reality.

If you're all that at 30-40 years old, sign up, strut your stuff, and get picked up for some hua program that will let you live your life of PT heaven. Then let us all know how that works out for you... But don't be afraid to come back with a mouth full of shoe leather when you've spent a year walking in our shoes, WORKING 12-16 hour shifts while jugging familly, education, and any other elements of having a real life, and let us know how you're managing to work in that 6 hours of PT a day. Just don't expect us to hold our breaths waiting on that... :rolleyes:

[Measure Man]

military personnel with families, they are excepted to do their jobs. There will always be time made for the family whenever possible to have some downtime on 30 days paid vacation. Use that time wisely.



I would have joined the U.S. Marine Corps if I was not taking care of an ill family member.



Oh the irony...you telling all of us to use our 30 days leave per year to spend with families...yet, when it came time for you to serve, you chose instead not to join at all so you could take care of your family. I guess it's fine for all of us serving to "find downtime" for our families...but YOUR family is too important for you even enlist"

Please come back on when you graduate BMT...until then, don't lecture me on my responsibilities. I'm not much older than you and have been serving 26 years. I also lost my mother along the way. I have neither the time nor inclination to explain why an hour of PT 4-5 days a week is more than sufficient. I'd rather you just say "thank you for serving"...or pick up a pen, sign on the dotted line, then grab a wrench and start working on the flightline. Either way, I don't give a damn what you "except" (sic) me to do.

[CrustySMSgt]

Oh the irony...you telling all of us to use our 30 days leave per year to spend with families...yet, when it came time for you to serve, you chose instead not to join at all so you could take care of your family. I guess it's fine for all of us serving to "find downtime" for our families...but YOUR family is too important for you even enlist"


Nice... I completely missed that point... rofl

[ArmyBrave1]

The big difference is that I did not sign up yet when I was taking care of my mother.

That would not have been very fair to my mother or to the military, Especially when the U.S.A. went to war.

If this were a normal downtime then it would be 30 days. Use that time wisely.

If a family member suddenly becomes ill the he or she should first ask their family or the relatives to step up and help their mother.

If he or she is the only one who will be taking care of the mother, this is a long term illness and I was the commander then I would consider giving him or her a honorable discharge based on work performance so that the mother will be taken care of.

Once the mother passes away then he or she can think about re-enlisting at the same rank he or she left with the honorable discharge paperwork at the recruiter's office.

As an officer, I would be fair to my men and women that are serving in the military.

I am not cold as I seem to be. It comes from years of having to be very responsible for everything and everybody at work, including myself as well.

Have a good day.

[Measure Man]

The big difference is that I did not sign up .

You could've stopped right there and been correct.

[CrustySMSgt]

You could've stopped right there and been correct.

+1 :rolleyes:

[Shadowless]

The big difference is that I did not sign up yet when I was taking care of my mother.

That would not have been very fair to my mother or to the military, Especially when the U.S.A. went to war.

If this were a normal downtime then it would be 30 days. Use that time wisely.

If a family member suddenly becomes ill the he or she should first ask their family or the relatives to step up and help their mother.

If he or she is the only one who will be taking care of the mother, this is a long term illness and I was the commander then I would consider giving him or her a honorable discharge based on work performance so that the mother will be taken care of.

Once the mother passes away then he or she can think about re-enlisting at the same rank he or she left with the honorable discharge paperwork at the recruiter's office.

As an officer, I would be fair to my men and women that are serving in the military.

I am not cold as I seem to be. It comes from years of having to be very responsible for everything and everybody at work, including myself as well.

Have a good day.

At this point, I am praying that you don't join the Air Force. The Army would be a perfect fit for you, please go sign up! Stay away from the Air Force please!