Mandatory PT time ends Jan. 1

[CommunityEditor]

There will be no more mandatory workday workout time starting in January.

The Air Force is getting rid of the requirement next year, leaving it up to commanders whether to build exercise time into your shift. Right now, according to Air Force Instruction 10-248, your leaders should be giving you at least 90 minutes three times a week for physical training — unless going to the gym interferes with getting the job done.

Though that edict will not be in the 2010 edition of AFI, the revised statement will hold commanders accountable for “providing a work environment that supports healthy lifestyle choices,” according to Maj. Richelle A. Dowdell, an Air Force spokeswoman.

“The new policy is focused on placing responsibilities for individual fitness where they should be — with the individual,” Dowdell wrote in an e-mail to Air Force Times. “Commanders are required to establish unit PT programs and they are encouraged, but not required, to schedule or authorize time for physical fitness training during the duty day.”

There are airmen on both sides of the issue.

A few of you said you wonder how it makes sense to eliminate the workday workouts, yet institute a tougher PT test, which also debuts in just three short months. Others, though, argue fitness should be an airman’s responsibility — not the commander’s.

And there’s a mix of the supporters and opponents who point out that many commanders either already give short shrift to fitness — using “the mission” as a way to skirt the mandate — or can’t get the unit PT program quite right, making it it’s too easy and not getting anyone body in shape or too hard and putting airmen at risk of injury.

Say what? Word of the new rule went out on the Web in a round-about way.

A user of www.airforcetimes.com, “technomage1,” posted a poll that asked his fellow airmen: “Should unit PT be prohibited under the new AFI?” “Technomage1” put out a little explainer with his question and a bit of personal history.

“With the new fitness AFI coming out, I’m wondering if it’s not time for a return to the days when fitness was solely the member’s responsibility,” he told his fellow forum contributors. “When I first came in, you had your bike test once a year;, if you failed you took the consequences of it. There was no unit PT; at best you had a supervisor that liked to work out and would give you time (mission allowing) to do it. But if that wasn’t the case it was still on you to find time to do so on your own.”

The poll drew 35 votes, 18 — or 51 percent — in favor, and went over the pros and cons of mandatory workouts. Of the more than 70 responses on Air Force Times’ site, only a handful thought ending the mandate was a bad idea.

“I say do not eliminate unit PT. No unit PT, for most people, will mean ‘No PT,’ especially for leadership. It’s just going to make things worse,” wrote a user who goes by “sanguines.” “You can’t institute a higher standard and simultaneously lower the required practice, in any field.”

From “JTAC_Sean”: “I don’t get what you guys all have against forming up as a group, doing some push-ups and sit-ups, maybe some circuit training, and then going on a two or three mile run together. No, it isn’t going to make you Superman, but you’ll at least be in some kind of shape.”

At an open forum of command chief master sergeants, an unidentified audience member asked the senior noncommissioned officers what they thought about eliminating the workday workouts.

“This appears inconsistent with the new emphasis to create and maintain an atmosphere of fitness,” the questioner wrote on a card, read aloud to the panel by Chief Master Sgt. of the Air Force James Roy.

Across the board, the enlisted leaders supported the new rule and put the responsibility of getting and staying in shape on airmen.

Chief Master Sgt. Michael P. Gilbert, of Air Force Special Operations Command, pointed out that the new AFI “doesn’t prevent airmen from working out,” but they might have to exercise more “after hours” and “on the weekends.”

Air Force leaders wanted to leave a unit’s fitness program to a commander’s discretion because the mission must come first, he said.

“Look at the position you are putting commanders in,” Gilbert said. “You are required to do fitness and you are required to fly these jets by 9 o’clock. You pick.”

The senior NCOs are in line with the way many airmen are thinking.

“The current system is broken and should be tossed, just tell people to do it on their own,” wrote “DomoreWithless52.” “Op tempo for many units is crazy and there’s no time for organized PT.”

A user who goes by “Bael” put it this way: “Unit PT should be at the discretion of the commander. Commanders need the flexibility to turn group PT on and off according to manning needs.”

“VFFSSGT” is more than willing to take care of himself: “I sleep, eat, bathe, haircut, brush teeth, CDC’s, promotion study, work, etc. on my own; I should be able to PT on my own too.”

Unit PT for “technomage1” has been “very much been [a] mixed bag.”

“Since the changes started in 2004 [the year that the Air Force instituted the PT test], I’ve only seen effective unit PT for about a year — the other PT programs were either way too hard and resulted in injuring many people participating, or way too easy and were a waste of time. Since everyone has different ability levels, to me the only effective unit PT is to do a series of stretches, strength building exercises, then release people to do cardio on their own, to their pace,” technomage1 wrote.

“I’m so fed up with the PT programs either injuring people or being way to easy (and this is at various bases and with different cc’s too, this just isn’t applying to my current unit PT) that I’m ready to wash my hands of the whole thing and bring back the days when we as members were responsible for our own fitness.”

Those who deal directly with fitness — PT leaders, civilian health workers — are hopeful that commanders will work in exercise time for their airmen if they can.

Tech Sgt. Chris Gibson, for one, said he doesn’t expect the 6 a.m. PT sessions that he leads at Hickam Air Force Base, Hawaii, to end just because his commander’s mandate does.

“Our program isn’t going anywhere,” said Gibson, who puts the 15th Medical Group through the motions.

After the Air Force announced the tougher test this summer, civilian fitness expert Jason Ham told Air Force Times that commanders might give their airmen more time — not less — to work out since there is more focus on results.

“This is a high-visibility item for commanders because they have to report these metrics to their major command,” said Ham, who directs Hickam’s Human Performance and Rehabilitation Center. “Commanders will be more accountable for this program.”

Staff Sgt. Joseph Sparlin, the unit fitness program manager for the 437th Maintenance Operations Squadron at Charleston Air Force Base, S.C., said he hopes commanders don’t lose sight of those priorities.

“It’s challenging from a leadership perspective because they have to get the mission done,” he said. “My rebuttal is that the airmen are the mission. Having them fit to fight is taking care of your people.”


Article: http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2009/10/airforce_pt_100309w/

[corvette101]

Thats actually good news. Because honestly it drags people down sometimes and those who work out on their own without a pt nazi yelling out what exercise to do next, it screws with peoples routines. I have a routine i follow but i have to show up to unit pt and my schedule is 12 hr panama so yea when its all said and done i work 14 hrs on pt day.i only end up going to squadron pt 2 a week or 1 depending on my schedule and it sucks because it ruins my selfpaced routine. I have lost 25 lbs so far in 09 on my own and well i just feel mandatory PT should only be mandatory if you fail. And btw i mocked and scored a 83 on the new standards. 37 in waist 12:06 1.5 45 push and 50 sit. I am 23 male.

[SGT Joe Snuffy]

Hey Corvette, 14 hour days suck and that's the one reason I would consider against unit pt. Losing 25 lbs is a great accomplishment but helping another joe lose some too is even greater an accomplishment. That's the military my friend.

[air1986]

Its give and take and this is why i will be glad to have it on your own.

Pros of unit PT.
They make sure you get 30-60 minutes of physical activity.
Those that don't like to work out on their own time.

cons of unit PT.

You may have to wake up an hr earlier to go. This sucks if your like corvette and work 12 hrs to not include the PT.

Its sometimes an insult to because i have passed my fitness assessments so why do i need to be babysat.(this one is biased and soley my opinion.)

Ruins or stunts effects of personal programs because who wants to workout 2x a day or 6 times a week. Or i can't work out my chest because of all the pushups i will do the next day and i will be sore from the day before.They recommend 24-48 hrs before working a muscle group again.

Your workout is based off the Nazis' fitness level not yours. Just cause he can do 300 situps in one setting doesn't mean everyone else can.


Just some of my takes on it. All in all its just an excuse for the commander to use as justification to support disciplinary actions.

Why did you fail? I had no time i was doing this that and this and that. Well why weren't you at our PT sessions if you were to attend you would have passed. Your getting an LOR and this and that.

[Mooolse]

Did anyone think that mabye they realized that some units have not been doing the manditory PT? Maintenance in particular has a very hard time working a 24 hour (8hrs each) shift system and doing "Manditory PT." So we don't make it manditory anymore. Then the "whole person concept" piles even more on the individuals. Man we need a 29 hr day w/school/study/volunteer/pt...oh wait what about family?? I heard the AF is saying they matter now, so when do I fit in time to do homework w/my children or "quality time" or have dinner as a family because they say that keeps a family together...man could I go on about this too. But I digress, in Maintenace let's see how it goes to say to the CC, sorry sir we are not going to be able to fly today, because we are closed for PT? Wait we are in the AIR force...we FLY...that is what we do. So Mxs can not shut down to do PT, what do we do, EXTEND the duty day, but wait we can't do that either. Back to shutting down for PT, if you go around to your base, how many places are opening late because of PT or completely closed for PT? At a previous base, I called mobile mxs to come move a vehicle from behind an acft that was getting ready to launch and was told they could not support it because they were at PT...I PROMISE THAT IS THE TRUTH. Mxs can not shut down for PT...it is hard enough to shut down for training or even lunch. That get's into an entire other area about health and eating/sleeping habits. When is the last time the clinic or MPF was open on Mids or weekends. I am not saying I want to cross train, because in case you didn't get it the first time we are in the AIR force..we fly, kill and destroy anytime of the day or night. And the old broke acft need to be fixed and we can't be like Ops and come in when we feel like it either. I think PT is a great thing, what is wrong is the playing field is not even and we are held to the same standard!! Also, with a system that is still being questioned we are ending peoples careers. like the stupid (sorry I know that isn't poliitically correct...don't care!!) people that say a guy 5'2" should have the same waist as a guy 6'4". But these kind of questions are costing people carreers and we seem to be ok w/that even when we know we have a flawed system! So if I am in the Low Risk catagory in the run and the moderate/high risk for the waiste measurement which one takes precident? Until we know the right way for sure, we shouldn't be costing people there jobs/lively hoods, and dumping them into a soaring economy of jobs. Sorry if any of this is misspelled, I haven't taken any spelling classes, I have been to busy learing my job! But it shouldn't be to bad, I am involved in the hours long writing contest of EPR's and awards...Could do a whole paragraph on that too!

[air1986]

Did anyone think that mabye they realized that some units have not been doing the manditory PT? Maintenance in particular has a very hard time working a 24 hour (8hrs each) shift system and doing "Manditory PT." So we don't make it manditory anymore. Then the "whole person concept" piles even more on the individuals. Man we need a 29 hr day w/school/study/volunteer/pt...oh wait what about family?? I heard the AF is saying they matter now, so when do I fit in time to do homework w/my children or "quality time" or have dinner as a family because they say that keeps a family together...man could I go on about this too. But I digress, in Maintenace let's see how it goes to say to the CC, sorry sir we are not going to be able to fly today, because we are closed for PT? Wait we are in the AIR force...we FLY...that is what we do. So Mxs can not shut down to do PT, what do we do, EXTEND the duty day, but wait we can't do that either. Back to shutting down for PT, if you go around to your base, how many places are opening late because of PT or completely closed for PT? At a previous base, I called mobile mxs to come move a vehicle from behind an acft that was getting ready to launch and was told they could not support it because they were at PT...I PROMISE THAT IS THE TRUTH. Mxs can not shut down for PT...it is hard enough to shut down for training or even lunch. That get's into an entire other area about health and eating/sleeping habits. When is the last time the clinic or MPF was open on Mids or weekends. I am not saying I want to cross train, because in case you didn't get it the first time we are in the AIR force..we fly, kill and destroy anytime of the day or night. And the old broke acft need to be fixed and we can't be like Ops and come in when we feel like it either. I think PT is a great thing, what is wrong is the playing field is not even and we are held to the same standard!! Also, with a system that is still being questioned we are ending peoples careers. like the stupid (sorry I know that isn't poliitically correct...don't care!!) people that say a guy 5'2" should have the same waist as a guy 6'4". But these kind of questions are costing people carreers and we seem to be ok w/that even when we know we have a flawed system! So if I am in the Low Risk catagory in the run and the moderate/high risk for the waiste measurement which one takes precident? Until we know the right way for sure, we shouldn't be costing people there jobs/lively hoods, and dumping them into a soaring economy of jobs. Sorry if any of this is misspelled, I haven't taken any spelling classes, I have been to busy learing my job! But it shouldn't be to bad, I am involved in the hours long writing contest of EPR's and awards...Could do a whole paragraph on that too!

I hear you man. But the only way the AF is getting through to people is by using the career killer move.I heard that if you fail but show improvement even if you don't pass further evals your still showing progress and the commander can't really do much as long as your showing improvement. But im unknown of the truth.

[DWA]

What sense does this new policy make? Beef up the requirements but eliminate mandatory PT...yet another; well I want say what I'm really thinking but you can fill in the blanks. Gotta love it!!!

[teeeadfas]

I think the real question is what has happened to journalism, if quoting online forum comments passes as news.

[Measure Man]

Did anyone think that mabye they realized that some units have not been doing the manditory PT? Maintenance in particular has a very hard time working a 24 hour (8hrs each) shift system and doing "Manditory PT." So we don't make it manditory anymore.

this is exactly why the rule changed.

They are tired of people who fail crying, "foul! my squadron didn't allow me my PT time"...

So, they took away the expectation, so now if you fail, you have no one to blame.

[71Fish]

The problem with manditory PT is it too easy. The only people it may have helped were those who wouldn't otherwise do anything on their own. I'm not a super endurance athlete, but race bikes (mtb and road) and regularly do 100+ mile rides. Being "told" to run 1.5 miles 2-3 times a week isn't going to make me better or others who already include working out a part of their normal day.

[The Guy]

First off it doesn't matter if PT is Mandatory or not! Group or no Group we still need to be fit. The true issue is the way the military decides if we are fit or not. Push-ups and Sit-ups are pretty much useless when it comes to poor technique. Sit-ups themselves are bad for your back and can have long term effects. Who cares if you can run a mile and a half in 9 minutes I want to know if you can run 3 miles with out walking? that shows endurance!

I realize its not a easy thing to design a PT Program. But lets stop punishing people on EPR's & OPR's for fitness standards and lets start promoting a positive fitness program in the Airforce.

Why push-ups & sit-ups / Why Not Bench, curls, & abs.

AF Sit-ups only hurt back and work legs. ???

[ArmyBrave1]

First off it doesn't matter if PT is Mandatory or not! Group or no Group we still need to be fit.

Absolutely 100%

I realize its not a easy thing to design a PT Program. But lets stop punishing people on EPR's & OPR's for fitness standards and lets start promoting a positive fitness program in the Airforce.

Why push-ups & sit-ups / Why Not Bench, curls, & abs.

Why not do them all as a part of achieving the desired physical fitness levels ?

Has the USAF conducted scientific physical fitness tests in the medical lab ?

Do you have research that proves push-ups and sit-ups are bad ?

They are only bad if you are overweight. If you are fit then push-ups and sit-ups should be no problem.

The same goes for the bench, curls and the ab workouts.

Don't forget to do the pull-ups even if your job does not require pull-ups. That may just come in handy someday.

[AF Chief]

PT will still continue in my unit. The way I look at it, they can do their own personal PT on their time (if they wish) and double dip with flight PT. Hell, that is 1 hour less you have to be at work 3 times a week. I doubt they will bitch about that. Matter of fact I got a worried email today asking if we were canceling PT and I told them, not under my watch.

[air1986]

PT will still continue in my unit. The way I look at it, they can do their own personal PT on their time (if they wish) and double dip with flight PT. Hell, that is 1 hour less you have to be at work 3 times a week. I doubt they will bitch about that. Matter of fact I got a worried email today asking if we were canceling PT and I told them, not under my watch.

Day schedule when i go to PT.
0600 WAKE UP
0630 BEGIN PT(30 minutes of pushups situps and weird shit i never heard of until now) and then 2.5 mile run.
0730 FINISH
0738 GET BACK TO DORM TO SHOWER AND GET READY FOR WORK.
0800 leave for work
0815 arrive at work
0830-2030 work
2100 get home
2130 try to go work out my own
2300 try to go to sleep.

SInce we say PT is done during duty hours it makes me work from 0630-2030. And by the way i believe i am the only 12 hr worker at the session everyone else is 8 hr. The only reason im bitching is because i end up technically doing military duties from 0630 all the way through til 2030 at night 14 hr day/

[StillKickN+40]

I don't profess to be a fitness queen, by any means, but I don't have a problem doing PT, either. I have chronic knee problems, back aches, shoulder pains, and depending on whether I wore heels the day before or not, "barking dogs." With the fitness gurus that have begun to increase with the units I work with, they are killing me. But, I suck it up, do what I can and feel it the rest of the day (thank God for anything over 500mg). So, will I like doing PT on my own; you betcha! Will I miss the comraderie with my unit; you betcha! But, if I am to stay healthy and do this PT five days a week, with two assessments a year, I'll take doing PT on my own. I know my body!

[ArmyBrave1]

PT will still continue in my unit. The way I look at it, they can do their own personal PT on their time (if they wish) and double dip with flight PT. Hell, that is 1 hour less you have to be at work 3 times a week. I doubt they will bitch about that. Matter of fact I got a worried email today asking if we were canceling PT and I told them, not under my watch.

Good that shows your men are motivated to be stronger. :D

[tsgtlifer]

Individual responsibility. That's all I want to say. I hear everyone that is struggling with PT complain that they don't have time and Sq Pt doesn't help. Ok. All of that time you dont have because Dr. Phil is on and that bag of chips are just calling your name needs to stop. When I ask folks how come they dont have time to exercise I've never heard a good answer, they have the time they are just lazy and look for excuses.

Trust me I have lost close 100lbs, ran a marathon (very proud of myself), and scored in the high 90's on my PT test. This is after only a few years ago sitting in my commanders office professionally being told I was a disgraceful lardass.

I did this in between 10 hour shifts, college, 2 kids, wife in school, coaching 6 youth sports over the year, and pretty much adopting my troop that was going through a hard time. Ok ok stopping the rant.

[Mooose]

this is exactly why the rule changed.

They are tired of people who fail crying, "foul! my squadron didn't allow me my PT time"...

So, they took away the expectation, so now if you fail, you have no one to blame.

Guess your job allows you time to work out. Do you work shift work or weekends, do you have an 8 hr duty day, how many EPR's/Packages do you write? Do you have time to spend time w/your family, do you have a family? When is the las time your phone rang at 0230 and they said you need to come to work? When was the last time you worked all week, then worked 12 hours on Sat and 12 hours on Sunday?? Then go no comp time for it??

[Measure Man]

Guess your job allows you time to work out. Do you work shift work or weekends, do you have an 8 hr duty day, how many EPR's/Packages do you write? Do you have time to spend time w/your family, do you have a family? When is the las time your phone rang at 0230 and they said you need to come to work? When was the last time you worked all week, then worked 12 hours on Sat and 12 hours on Sunday?? Then go no comp time for it??

My current job allows me time to workout. It wasn't always that way.

I've probably done more EPRs/Packages than most people...although not currently since I'm at HQ.

Not sure what you're so mad about? I was just explaining why the rule changed...I didn't make the rule.

What is your point in laying out your work schedule for us? That you think there should or should not be duty time for PT?

[Flybynight]

On duty or on our own, who cares? More injuries will happen as troops try to beat the required minimum score in each category. Physiologists, HAWC, and docs ought to be asking about the "science" behind the changes. Someone needs to point out that "the emperor has no clothes." I doubt that many G.O.s can pass the new PT requirements legitimately. Does anyone believe the civilians testing them will be truthful, or that any Sr officer will allow him/herself a documented failure?
I'm capped at "pass" (75) due to legitimate medical exemptions. What is my incentive to try any harder? Since 75 is the minimum to pass and is also my new maximum, then 75 is my new goal!!! So much for a culture change; now I'm aiming for mediocrity; talk about unintended consequences!
Not to mention the new patch for the PT uniform for those who can score well. We can't wear sq patches on ABUs to recognize our unit and heritage, but we're going to recognize the younger, thinner, and less-experienced who happen to be able to run fast, do more crunches and push-ups with an "I love me" patch? How stupid.
This test does nothing to prove combat readiness. Ask anyone who has deployed (yes, I have deployed, despite the fitness exemption). Would you rather be in a foxhole or any combat with a skinny dude who can run fast or somebody who might be just a little pudgy but who can shoot straight? Maybe I need to retire and we'll see how less-experienced troops manage their REAL AF jobs (besides fitness). Come on already, we're not the Army.

[air1986]

On duty or on our own, who cares? More injuries will happen as troops try to beat the required minimum score in each category. Physiologists, HAWC, and docs ought to be asking about the "science" behind the changes. Someone needs to point out that "the emperor has no clothes." I doubt that many G.O.s can pass the new PT requirements legitimately. Does anyone believe the civilians testing them will be truthful, or that any Sr officer will allow him/herself a documented failure?
I'm capped at "pass" (75) due to legitimate medical exemptions. What is my incentive to try any harder? Since 75 is the minimum to pass and is also my new maximum, then 75 is my new goal!!! So much for a culture change; now I'm aiming for mediocrity; talk about unintended consequences!
Not to mention the new patch for the PT uniform for those who can score well. We can't wear sq patches on ABUs to recognize our unit and heritage, but we're going to recognize the younger, thinner, and less-experienced who happen to be able to run fast, do more crunches and push-ups with an "I love me" patch? How stupid.
This test does nothing to prove combat readiness. Ask anyone who has deployed (yes, I have deployed, despite the fitness exemption). Would you rather be in a foxhole or any combat with a skinny dude who can run fast or somebody who might be just a little pudgy but who can shoot straight? Maybe I need to retire and we'll see how less-experienced troops manage their REAL AF jobs (besides fitness). Come on already, we're not the Army.

Its inevitable we are being armified. Simple and i really enjoy outgoing highups making changes they won't expierience for themselves just leave the mess for the new Chief. It just makes me sick to stand next to someone that i can measure their waist by wrapping my hand like im picking up a bottle, and knowing all they have to do until jan 10 is show up to the testing site and pass by doing 2 situps 2 pushups and walk/run the 1.5 and still score an 85

[Rusty]

Prior to manditory PT, I've trained for my own personal benefit. I was in prime condition and always scored well above a 90% on evey single test. For a whole decade I felt confident, motivated and healthy too. After only a few years of manditory PT, I am pushing myself to the point of exhaustion simply to score a freakin' 80-something.

This isn't a bitching session; I just realized, after my 14+ years of experience, that I know better than someone else does about what I need to accomplish in order to stay in shape.

If manditory PT sessions are no longer required to be held and we are to test twice a year, I'm more than ready to show my leadership (all the way up the chain), that I can take care of myself.

Just a final thought - Manditory PT takes over an hour and a half some days... It rarely takes me an hour on my own.

[cut dead weight]

Do you people not see what this is really about, it a way to cut dead weight. We are looking to cut airman is this is one quic way

[air1986]

Do you people not see what this is really about, it a way to cut dead weight. We are looking to cut airman is this is one quic way

+1 amen to that. Its a force shaping tool in other words. Whats funny there is 2 dude that i work with can both benchpress a buick but they failed their PT tests

[Moose]

My current job allows me time to workout. It wasn't always that way.

I've probably done more EPRs/Packages than most people...although not currently since I'm at HQ.

Not sure what you're so mad about? I was just explaining why the rule changed...I didn't make the rule.

What is your point in laying out your work schedule for us? That you think there should or should not be duty time for PT?

I do not care if it is on or off duty time, the point is that people are being held to a double standard. We talk whole person concept, we talk we want a "fit force". I am saying that it is very hard in the acft mxs field. Most of us did not get it when it was "manditory". So let's talk about the whole person/fit force. In the mxs field you could end up working all three shifts in one week, so that does not lend to good rest habits. We may or may not get a chance to go somewhere to eat. Most of the time it is grab something quick which does not lend to great eating habits. You can bring your lunch, but when you do that for years, it get's old. As for PT most mxs personnel work 8-12hrs days, mostly 12, so doing that along with trying to go to school, trying to spend time w/your family/trying to voluteer...what about time for yourself. All of these things are suppose to be done so you are a well rounded person. But you are going to compare the mxs guys and cops(I include them, because I believe they are in the same boat) to people that work MPF, or the Med clinic, or HQ. That actually get time to work out, do not work different shifts or weekends, get time to eat, can "close" for PT or training. I am quite a bit older and it kills me now and it kills me when I have to work a Swings of Mids, or have to come into work at 0300 to cover a launch. It kills my family, when I have to work weekends and holidays, oh yea the bad guys do not take holidays, and if the acft is broke or flying, we have to work. We are not like operators who can get off and go home. We have to work 12hrs, go home and come back in 12hrs later for another 12 hour shift. I am not complaining about my job, I love it. We are in the AIR FORCE and I am on the front line launching jets, but do not hold me to the same standard as someone who gets time to PT/Eat...doesn't work shift, so they have a good sleep schedule etc. I am not saying it can not be done, I know people that have done it, but when I ask them what it cost them, most of them reply "MY FAMILY" I looked up and my son was graduating and I didn't get to spend anytime with him...If you think doing away with manditory PT is going to help, you are crazy! The young maintainers need duty time to do it or tell the commander sir we are not going to be able to fly or fix your jet because we have to do PT...see how far that goes! Do not hold a maintainer or cop to the same standard as an office worker, it is not right!!!

[ArmyBrave1]

Body weight physical training shows who is really in top shape.

Anyone can lift weights but not every one can do P.T.

[Measure Man]

I do not care if it is on or off duty time, the point is that people are being held to a double standard. We talk whole person concept, we talk we want a "fit force". I am saying that it is very hard in the acft mxs field. Most of us did not get it when it was "manditory". So let's talk about the whole person/fit force. In the mxs field you could end up working all three shifts in one week, so that does not lend to good rest habits. We may or may not get a chance to go somewhere to eat. Most of the time it is grab something quick which does not lend to great eating habits. You can bring your lunch, but when you do that for years, it get's old. As for PT most mxs personnel work 8-12hrs days, mostly 12, so doing that along with trying to go to school, trying to spend time w/your family/trying to voluteer...what about time for yourself. All of these things are suppose to be done so you are a well rounded person. But you are going to compare the mxs guys and cops(I include them, because I believe they are in the same boat) to people that work MPF, or the Med clinic, or HQ. That actually get time to work out, do not work different shifts or weekends, get time to eat, can "close" for PT or training. I am quite a bit older and it kills me now and it kills me when I have to work a Swings of Mids, or have to come into work at 0300 to cover a launch. It kills my family, when I have to work weekends and holidays, oh yea the bad guys do not take holidays, and if the acft is broke or flying, we have to work. We are not like operators who can get off and go home. We have to work 12hrs, go home and come back in 12hrs later for another 12 hour shift. I am not complaining about my job, I love it. We are in the AIR FORCE and I am on the front line launching jets, but do not hold me to the same standard as someone who gets time to PT/Eat...doesn't work shift, so they have a good sleep schedule etc. I am not saying it can not be done, I know people that have done it, but when I ask them what it cost them, most of them reply "MY FAMILY" I looked up and my son was graduating and I didn't get to spend anytime with him...If you think doing away with manditory PT is going to help, you are crazy! The young maintainers need duty time to do it or tell the commander sir we are not going to be able to fly or fix your jet because we have to do PT...see how far that goes! Do not hold a maintainer or cop to the same standard as an office worker, it is not right!!!

I would love to discuss this with you...but I have no idea what your point is.

I've spent pretty much my whole career in Maintenance, by the way.

[Moose]

I would love to discuss this with you...but I have no idea what your point is.

I've spent pretty much my whole career in Maintenance, by the way.

If you can not see my point by reading my replies, I do not feel like taking the time to discuss this with you...sorry if you don't get it, gotta move on.

[CommunityEditor]

Editorial: Make PT mandatory (http://www.militarytimes.com/community/opinion/airforce_editorial_pt_101909/)

Top leaders are putting the burden back on airmen to get in shape for the new, tougher physical training test that goes into effect Jan. 1. And that same day, the service is doing away with mandatory PT that requires commanders to allow airmen at least 90 minutes three times a week on the clock to get fit.

With the start of the new year, commanders can decide for themselves whether to build exercise into the workday but will be encouraged to do so.

Given that the Air Force surgeon general found last year that 55 percent of airmen were overweight — and 12 percent were obese — tougher PT standards only make sense. However, it is counterintuitive to at the same time kill mandatory PT. The Air Force has been on a mission to create a culture of fitness for the past several years. The sight of airmen exercising during the workday is a valuable demonstration of commitment to that ethos.

Many commanders have legitimate concerns about their airmen being able to get their work done when 90 minutes is given to PT time. But commanders have an out — current instruction allows them to forgo providing PT time in order to meet mission.

Mandatory PT time with that exception ought to continue as policy. It would underscore the Air Force’s commitment to a culture of fitness while allowing commanders to opt out when necessary. Those commanders, however, shouldn’t simply waive mandatory PT as a matter of convenience. They should make every effort to provide it and scrutinize unit work procedures to ensure maximum efficiency. There just may be more time in the workday than many commanders realize.

And fit airmen are going to get more done in less time than those who are out of shape.

[Sergeant Jonny_04]

I am glad to see the "mandatory" factor of PT go away in Jan '10. I have never failed a PT test, but I could care less if somebody that I work with or one of my Airmen can pass or fail the test...as long as they are productive workers. I find myself writing "referral 5's" for excellent troops that will work 12 hour shifts in extreme conditions? Where's the sense in that? I did see some of the other posts that the new PT program may be a "house cleaning" tool, and that may be true. I don't know about your career field, but what will we maintainers do if they kick out the 40% of folks they believe are going to fail? Would that mean I would have to pick up their deployment slack? Either way, the Air Force has gone down hill in all facets, except physical fitness, since incorporating the PT program...most importantly OJT training. We should just become the Army Air Corps again and call it good...basically, all I'm saying is PT is not an important part of the Air Force. I've seen many "large" people do fine jobs and succeed while being deployed.

[ArmyBrave1]

Given that the Air Force surgeon general found last year that 55 percent of airmen were overweight — and 12 percent were obese — tougher PT standards only make sense.



At the V.F.W. I was just told by the older active duty and retired airmen that in the old days that never would have happened.

55 % of airmen are fatties ? :confused:

[Sergeant Jonny_04]

Well, I am considered obese according to Air Force standards. I'm 5'8" 200lbs. I think my max weight is supposed to be 165 or so. Either way, my run time was 11:41, 57 push ups, 53 sit-up, 35.5" waist...all recorded by PACAF civilians...but still, who cares??? Do I show up to work on time?...yes. Do I deploy everytime I am asked to do so?...yes. Have I been considered a productive part of the Air Force?...six medals and a Leo Marquez in nine years of service. Do I think it's important to pass a PT test...no!!! As a maintainer, is it important to the Air Force that planes launch, or is it important that we stay physically fit? That should be a very touchy subject for the Ops officers that enforce these standards. Let's just say for example, Airman/Sergeant Snuffy is working on your ejection seat...not only is he/she worried about QA coming out and performing an eval, but he/she's also on a mandatory fitness program and concerned about that too. If they fail at any of the tasks, they will be punished/discharged and maybe court martialed for one of the tasks if they fail. If they fail installing egress items on your ejection seat, that could result in death! All I'm asking is that the Air Force re-thinks their mission and priorities. Our daily jobs are very technical, and if you want to sustaine such a stringent PT program, then slow down on your daily training missions and incorporate a PT program like the Army has, and make it part of the duty day. We can't continue with our deployments, exercises, and training missions at this pace. Leaders, take a step back and think about our mission.

[defend the fort]

I beleive the Air Force could just do away with PT standards and testing all together. The Air Force settles for substandard leadership, training, and the well discussed ABU and PT uniform. So why not PT as well? As far as the "Fit to Fight" program is concerned, lets be truethful. Only a small percent of the Air Force actualy go outside the base and fight. Thank you for listening.

[ArmyBrave1]

I beleive the Air Force could just do away with PT standards and testing all together. The Air Force settles for substandard leadership, training, and the well discussed ABU and PT uniform. So why not PT as well? As far as the "Fit to Fight" program is concerned, lets be truethful. Only a small percent of the Air Force actualy go outside the base and fight. Thank you for listening.

Let's say the base for example in Afghanistan gets attacked and overrun.

Our brothers in the Army and Marine Corps are fit to fight, meaning they do p.t. and hand to hand combat.

Are the airmen prepared to go from the violence of firefights to the enemy doing their bayonet charges then finally savage hand to hand combat fights ?

It is better for the USAF to come already " READY TO FIGHT "

Millions of U.S. Air Force troops ready to attack the enemy when it comes to physical violence.

General LeMay had the right idea with the judo & hand to hand combat program in the 1960's.

[Sergeant Jonny_04]

The Air Force does not settle for sub-standard leadership and training. There's really no reason to bash any one service. We all play our part in different ways. For the most part, our mission is not fighting "outside the wire". I'm fine with that and have the greatest respect for service members that have to perform duties outside the base. All I'm saying is the Air Force has gotten off track on their priorities. I take pride in generating aircraft on base to protect our Soldiers and Marines off base. Like I've said in my last couple replies, I don't care if the Airman next to me can pass a PT test, as long as he/she performs their maintenance actions to 100%. Let's quit worrying about whether or not our PT shirts are tucked in, and let's concentrate on generating our aircraft to protect our service members serving "outside the wire".

[defend the fort]

That reply would make a great movie but it is just not that kind of war. We can "what if " everything all day long. At the end of that day, there is only reality. I am well versed in physcal violence and it is just not happening on the air force's end of things. Minus the spec ops world. When every EPR or OPR bullet is written like a medal of honor packet, not to mention, who plays poker with who, or other factors I don't know if I can state on this forum, promoting individuals beyond there capacity. I always thought that classified as substandard leadership. If I am wrong, please square me away. I agree whole heartedly with sgt johnny o4. PT for the air force just one more unnecesary distraction from the mission, or a bullet on someones EPR/OPR who obviously has to much time on their hands. The same people who run around in theater telling people to tuck in there PT shirts. Thats the job I want.

[ArmyBrave1]

A real life example would be from the History Channel where the airmen in WWII or Korea were sleeping in their tents while the Marines were patrolling and they got attacked in the night time.

Asiastic enemy forces attacked the sleeping airmen slitting their throats and to make matters worse, the airmen and marines were not armed with heavy loads of bullets loaded into magazines for their battle rifles.

The fight quickly became savage hand to hand fighting.

Today if millions of U.S. Airmen were trained in old school hard-core hand to hand combat techniques regardless of their AFSC in both enlisted and officer corps then they would be able to defend themselves if the U.S. bases get attacked and almost being over-run by enemy terrorists who no doubt are well versed in hand to hand combat.

If the U.S. Air Force opened a training center somewhere in the U.S.A. then all the active duty, national guard and reserves airmen would have to go through a much tougher version of basic training keeping themselves very physically fit and have supreme confidence in fighting hand to hand combat skills.

Lackland would be the entry point but for continued maintenance of air force personnel's physical training needs being met in a 3 month training cycle.

The aircraft fleet and military equipment will be taken care of by rotating new air force personnel filling the AFSC position then millions of air force personnel rotate through the advanced 3 month course twice a year.

It only gets more physically hard with each passing year until the U.S. Airmen are physically tough and squared away with military muscles surpassing that of the U.S. Marine Corps.

[MaintChief]

A real life example would be from the History Channel where the airmen in WWII or Korea were sleeping in their tents while the Marines were patrolling and they got attacked in the night time.

Asiastic enemy forces attacked the sleeping airmen slitting their throats and to make matters worse, the airmen and marines were not armed with heavy loads of bullets loaded into magazines for their battle rifles.

The fight quickly became savage hand to hand fighting.

Today if millions of U.S. Airmen were trained in old school hard-core hand to hand combat techniques regardless of their AFSC in both enlisted and officer corps then they would be able to defend themselves if the U.S. bases get attacked and almost being over-run by enemy terrorists who no doubt are well versed in hand to hand combat.

If the U.S. Air Force opened a training center somewhere in the U.S.A. then all the active duty, national guard and reserves airmen would have to go through a much tougher version of basic training keeping themselves very physically fit and have supreme confidence in fighting hand to hand combat skills.

Lackland would be the entry point but for continued maintenance of air force personnel's physical training needs being met in a 3 month training cycle.

The aircraft fleet and military equipment will be taken care of by rotating new air force personnel filling the AFSC position then millions of air force personnel rotate through the advanced 3 month course twice a year.

It only gets more physically hard with each passing year until the U.S. Airmen are physically tough and squared away with military muscles surpassing that of the U.S. Marine Corps.

Millions of Airmen? Exactly where do you get this number? There are approximately 330,000 Airmen authorized for active duty. Counting ANG and Reserves, we come up to approx 684,000 total in FY 10.
Next, an F-16 guy can't work a B-52, or vice versa. How do you train to work multiple platforms and get proficient? While supporting operations Stateside and the AOR? Your idea does not pass the sanity check.

[ArmyBrave1]

Millions of Airmen? Exactly where do you get this number? There are approximately 330,000 Airmen authorized for active duty. Counting ANG and Reserves, we come up to approx 684,000 total in FY 10.
Next, an F-16 guy can't work a B-52, or vice versa. How do you train to work multiple platforms and get proficient? While supporting operations Stateside and the AOR? Your idea does not pass the sanity check.

The basic warrior tasks from hand to hand combat, rifle marksmanship and physical training needs to be kept constant in a military man's life.

I am speaking of the air force as a whole being trained. The maintenance of aircraft and equipment will be rotated to new recruits then as the more older and experienced hands return from advanced continuing boot camp, the new recruits go through the advanced 3 month cycle.

In good time, everybody is physically fit and ready to fight any where, any place any time.

Now does that make sense ? There will be no more airmen rated as fatties at 55%.

I am not in the service yet but there are many ideas floating around by those considering military service or are on active duty or on national guard and reserve duty or by those who are retired.

A sane mind would consider and take into account these things.

[MaintChief]

The basic warrior tasks from hand to hand combat, rifle marksmanship and physical training needs to be kept constant in a military man's life.

I am speaking of the air force as a whole being trained. The maintenance of aircraft and equipment will be rotated to new recruits then as the more older and experienced hands return from advanced continuing boot camp, the new recruits go through the 3 month cycle.

In good time, everybody is physically fit and ready to fight any where, any place any time.

Now does that make sense ? There will be no more airmen rated as fatties at 55%.

I am not in the service yet but there are many ideas floating around by those considering military service or are on active duty or on national guard and reserve duty or by those who are retired.

A sane mind would consider and take into account these things.

You have got to be kidding. I have 28 years on active duty, so I think I have a clue of how things operate. The entire USAF, counting AD, ANG, and Reserves, is less than 684,000 people. We don't have the manpower! And let me clue you in...new recruits out of technical school are no-where close to being ready to maintain anything. One of our issues is the lack of trained, EXPERIENCED personnel. It takes YEARS to get proficient on a weapons system. And I don't remember the last time I had to do worry about hand-to-hand, and I'm a veteran of GWI and OEF.

[ArmyBrave1]

You have got to be kidding. I have 28 years on active duty, so I think I have a clue of how things operate. The entire USAF, counting AD, ANG, and Reserves, is less than 684,000 people. We don't have the manpower! And let me clue you in...new recruits out of technical school are no-where close to being ready to maintain anything. One of our issues is the lack of trained, EXPERIENCED personnel. It takes YEARS to get proficient on a weapons system. And I don't remember the last time I had to do worry about hand-to-hand, and I'm a veteran of GWI and OEF.

They are just ideas. Everyone has their say then the U.S.A.F. decides what to do.

55% to anyone should be embarrassing. That is almost 60%

It should be 3% to 5% of the airmen being fat. No more than 10 %

I have no doubt maintenance has their act together. Why not the physical part too ?

One may never have a need for combatives but I am sure a small percentage do utilize hand to hand combat during the course of their military career.

[MaintChief]

They are just ideas. Everyone has their say then the U.S.A.F. decides what to do.

55% to anyone should be embarrassing. That is almost 60%

It should be 3% to 5% of the airmen being fat. No more than 10 %

I have no doubt maintenance has their act together. Why not the physical part too ?

One may never have a need for combatives but I am sure a small percentage do utilize hand to hand combat during the course of their military career.

55% of the USAF is not fat. If they are going by the definition of obesity using the BMI charts, we're screwed. For me to be officially "not fat" I have to weigh like 173 lbs. Ain't happening. I had a 39" waist and ran my 1.5 miles in 13:07 last PT test, which ain't bad for a 45+ y/o who hates to run. I max my situps and pushups. I run 4-5 miles every other day. Yet the BMI charts put me at overweight. I present a professional image in my blues.

As for combatives, target it to the population that requires it. It's a question of effective use of limited resources. It is also a frangible skill, meaning that it needs constant training/use to be current.

[ArmyBrave1]

55% of the USAF is not fat. If they are going by the definition of obesity using the BMI charts, we're screwed. For me to be officially "not fat" I have to weigh like 173 lbs. Ain't happening. I had a 39" waist and ran my 1.5 miles in 13:07 last PT test, which ain't bad for a 45+ y/o who hates to run. I max my situps and pushups. I run 4-5 miles every other day. Yet the BMI charts put me at overweight. I present a professional image in my blues.

As for combatives, target it to the population that requires it. It's a question of effective use of limited resources. It is also a frangible skill, meaning that it needs constant training/use to be current.


Fair enough. Like I said it is just an idea. I am sure the AF will take into account real world concerns.

[defend the fort]

Army Brave One:
Wow, you are seriously going to be a wonderful addition to any other branch. So you are critizing something that you read, and never experienced? The pt program for the Air Force is still being tweaked, and relatively new. So research that! You are going off numbers and not following through with the research on how those numbers were made. As far as the hand to hand combat goes, get out from behind the McDonalds cash register and think about what you are saying. You want Airman to leave their jobs to go away for school for 6 months on this, and then go overseas for their deployment? What about other lessons on convoy training, or chem warfrare training? Yeah they aren't as important right? Maintaining aircraft for the trip is miniscule compared to hand to hand combat training or pt tests. Sorry maintchief you'd be out of a job. Im sure with the reason, and devotion you have to hand to hand combat will make you a successful military officer for Civil Air Patrol. I look forward to hearing your comments. :)

[ArmyBrave1]

You can't go complaining like a bunch of crybabies that I have not been in the service yet. At least I am a honest man.

I don't work at McDonald's.

I am a manager of an assembly line factory.

Maybe I am called a p.t. stud for a good reason because when I am in my office or on my time off I work out religiously.

I am a leader and people know it. Let me just say this ...

I am glad the p.t. standards are getting considerably tougher. :cool:

[Bael]

Heh- took me three weeks to notice this article, and that I was quoted in it.

Good writeup, AF Times staff. I appreciate the attention you have brought to this issue.

[zerstorer335]

At the V.F.W. I was just told by the older active duty and retired airmen that in the old days that never would have happened.

55 % of airmen are fatties ? :confused:

One of the issues I've often had with the "overweight" determination is that there's, in my humble opinion, a difference between overweight and overfat. Even at Field Training (AFROTC "boot camp", if you will) I was at the top end of the "fit" BMI range. The only time I've been well within that range was when I was fighting cancer and going through chemotherapy. I understand the concern about fat, but I can't help but think there's a better way to measure the actual fat than simply factoring in my weight/waist. Having size 15 feet and an 8" hat size probably puts some (if only a little, it's just an example) more weight on me than someone with a smaller foot / head measurement, even if we have the same height and same amount of actual fat.

As far as the article, the old rule, as I remember it, was only that the commander had to allow you to go to PT three times a week, not that the commander had to send you three times a week. That didn't prevent them from requiring group PT, and, since they had to let people go do it, it made sense in some areas to do it as a group, anyway. The new rule, it seems, puts individual airmen in charge of making sure they pass, thereby allowing leadership to say "No, you can't go to do PT because I want you here, do it on your own time". They can, however, still say "Go do PT" if they feel that is the thing to do. It's just no longer required by the AFI that you be able to go.

When it comes to group PT, I'm on the fence, having been both helped and hindered by it. When I had no idea about how to exercise and how to push my limits, it gave me a starting point. It didn't help me when our required group PT focused the time we were allotted on the push-ups and sit-ups more than the running, when I already had the push/sit ups taken care of but needed to be faster. But, as a leader, I can see a merit to group PT because it lets me see if my people can meet the standards they're being held to. As long as they can meet the minimums and their careers aren't going to be messed up on account of the PT test, I'm not so concerned about what else they want to do. Naturally, I want them to to better than the minimum. I think I've said this before: I prefer a mix of group and solo PT. Group PT makes sure you meet the standards and that there are no surprises, or even test anxiety. Solo PT lets you focus on what helps you achieve your fitness goals.

[CLSE]

1) The 55% fat, 12% obese numbers are based on BMI figures. The BMI is about as accurate as trying to spit on the goal post from the other end of the field. It correlates well to body fat right around 25, and then the accuracy degrades as you move farther from there.


2) Somebody asked about scientific evidence:

The run times and numbers of push-ups and sit-ups are all based off of numbers from the Cooper Institute, which derived the numbers from scientific testing.

That's where the science ends.

a) The Cooper Institute numbers are organized as percentiles of the general population, they don't have, or endorse, a point system. The recommendations that they make to police departments for testing standards are based on an individual being above a certain percentile, usually the 40th for entry into an academy, etc., based on performance.

Just to throw an interesting nugget in here, the Cooper Institute's standard for the 99th percentile for push-ups in one minute (that's the top 1%) is 87 push-ups.


b) The Cooper Institute, and every other branch of the armed services (even the Marines), adjust the run times, push-ups and sit-ups for age, i.e., you get more time to run have to do less push-ups and sit-ups.

The Air Force adjusts the run time for the first one and a half minutes or so, and after that, scoring for the run time is the same for all age groups. So, me, at 35 years old, gets scored the same as an 18 year old.

Apparently, the Air Force Medical Service has discovered that an individual's performance doesn't really degrade as they age, people have just been slacking off all of these years....Oh, wait, they adjust the push-ups and sit-ups, but not the run. Never mind.


c) The Cooper Institute, and every other branch of the armed services, do not include a body fat, body composition or whatever else you want to call it measurement as a scored event, as it has no correlation with fitness, i.e., if you can pass the test, you're probably not too fat.


d) Every other branch of the armed services weight the run and strength events evenly, i.e., 3 events, 100 points per event.

The Cooper Institute doesn't make any recommendation to weight run performance over the push-ups and sit-ups.

They all seem to grasp the very simple concept that every individual is not good at any one event.


e) The Marines Corps, and, as I understand it, the Army, have realized that their current PT tests do not adequately ensure that Marines and Soldiers have the necessary strength and endurance to operate in combat conditions.

Hence, the Combat Fitness Test in addition to the standard PT test for the Marines, and I have read that the Army is looking at a change to their PT test.

By contrast, the Air Force has developed as PT test that not only does not ensure that Airman have the necessary strength and endurance, it actually penalizes larger, stronger Airman and encourages Airman to lose weight only for the sake of losing weight, regardless of whether the weight is fat mass or muscle mass.

As a matter of fact, consider this:

Airman Snuffy could actually lose weight and reduce his/her abdominal circumference, losing muscle mass and gaining fat mass in the process (it's easy to do if the weight isn't lost properly), which, incidentally, is completely contrary to what a truly "healthy lifestyle" would do.

Airman Stud could gain weight and increase his/her abdominal circumference, gaining muscle mass and losing fat mass (easy to do when done properly), which, incidentally, is what a truly "healthy lifestyle" would do.

Airman Snuffy would be rewarded by the current PT program, and Airman Stud would be demerited by the current PT program.


f) The abdominal circumference used for the PT test suffers from the same flaw as the BMI, it cannot discriminate between lean and fat mass or body mass distribution.

To provide an example, I'm 5' 11" 225lbs with a 37.5" abdominal circumference. I also have 43.5" hips, a 36" belt line, and I have a 36" circumference between the upper iliac crest and my lower rib.

An individual who is 5' 11" 225lbs with a 37.5" abdominal circumference, but with, say, 39" hips, is not going to have the same circumference at the belt line or above the iliac crest.

More importantly, the two of us are not going to have the same abdominal composition: With less volume below his waist, he's going to have more mass in his abdomen.

The abdominal circumference doesn't catch that.


g) The proponents of the abdominal circumference claim that an individual's waist size shouldn't change throughout life (I don't know what country they're getting their test subjects and data from).

Just playing along, and saying that's possible, then apparently everybody was also genetically programmed to have no more than a 35" circumference, and anybody who's over that is just a fat pig.


3) If the Air Force is using this as a force-shaping tool, it's another one of their wonderful ideas that demonstrates short-sightedness to the point of negligence.

Airman Snuffy, who came in for his college bennies and doesn't give a crap about the Air Force, does the absolute minimum in his day-to-day duties and spends his spare time working on his degree is golden as long as he passes the PT test, and the Air Force will even re-enlist him for another 4 years so he can finish his degree before he gets out and tells the Air Force to kiss his ass.

On the flip side, Sgt Stuffy, with 16 years in, puts the mission first, volunteers for deployments, knows his job inside and out, wants to stay in as long as he can because he loves what he does and is in generally good shape and health will be kicked out because of 1 minute on the run.

Who has the Air Force invested more in, and who will provide a better "return on investment"?

[MRPHILLY1]

Let's say the base for example in Afghanistan gets attacked and overrun.

Our brothers in the Army and Marine Corps are fit to fight, meaning they do p.t. and hand to hand combat.

Are the airmen prepared to go from the violence of firefights to the enemy doing their bayonet charges then finally savage hand to hand combat fights ?

It is better for the USAF to come already " READY TO FIGHT "

Millions of U.S. Air Force troops ready to attack the enemy when it comes to physical violence.

General LeMay had the right idea with the judo & hand to hand combat program in the 1960's.

When are you PT Nazi's going to realize that fighting is more then doing P.T! There are other things the AF can do to ensure it's members are prepared for the warzone. How about shooting weapons more then othen. The problem with the AF is we are only considered warriors when we are actually in the warzone. I remember reading an article a few years ago. The article suggested AF member shot more at least 2 times a year. The idea was shot down. Why? It wasn't cost effectvie for everyone to shot that often. So they expect people to become warriors when they send them to a Army base 3 mos before a deployment. The AF needs to put its money where it's mouth is. Stop trying to be toy soldiers with Airmen's Creeds and PT tests.

[JD2780]

MRPHILLY. I completely agree with the part about the Airmen's Creed. I've been TACP for 8 yrs now, and I've been opfor on multiple exercises as well as opfor for the ECST here on Nellis. I had one dude show up to ECST with a whole crazy kit set up and wearing multi-cam. I understand they dont wnat people jacking up their work utilities, but seriously multi-cam. I was started poking asking about the shooter, and found out hes a munitions troop. WTF does that have to do with anything. He even had an icom radio on his rack. He tried being Billy Bad Ass when I was playing an OSI agent. He told me to put down my rifle and I told him I was OSI and I'm not dropping my rife. He said he didnt care who I was. HAAHAHA, The instructor and I let this moron realize who should care. One more example of AF playing worrior. I understand the AF doesnt need to be trained to the standard of a ground combat troop, but if you're going to have MTIs blabbing at the mouth about how in shape our Airmen are, and have us all talking about "worrior ethos" then tow the line and be worriors. This is me stepping off of my soap box happy holidays.

[Shrike]

When are you PT Nazi's going to realize that fighting is more then doing P.T! There are other things the AF can do to ensure it's members are prepared for the warzone. How about shooting weapons more then othen. The problem with the AF is we are only considered warriors when we are actually in the warzone. I remember reading an article a few years ago. The article suggested AF member shot more at least 2 times a year. The idea was shot down. Why? It wasn't cost effectvie for everyone to shot that often. So they expect people to become warriors when they send them to a Army base 3 mos before a deployment. The AF needs to put its money where it's mouth is. Stop trying to be toy soldiers with Airmen's Creeds and PT tests.

The PT program is not about being ready to fight or being warriors. It's about image, plain and simple.

[air1986]

The PT program is not about being ready to fight or being warriors. It's about image, plain and simple.

You know i have been sweating this PT monster for far too long. I have been working out steady and have lost 30+ lbs since the beginning of the year. But my waist size just isn't getting any smaller. People say i have slimmed down alot blah blah blah and yet when i get taped just for GP i still measure high 38-40 yet im under 190 lbs. Well im just about to the end of my rope. If i fail i fail and then at the end of my enlistment i will be exiting whether theres a passing score on my PT or not. My only problem is was and always will be body composition. I am not giving up as i will still try but what I am saying I am no longer concerned with failing.

I was concerned that if i fail then i would lose my follow-on to Dover. I extended for the sole reason for the follow-on to dover. But if they do end up cancelling my follow-on the reason, for extending will no longer be there and then the extension will get cancelled and i will be separating in Jun 2010 instead of Jun 2011. But have been told that the only follow-on risked is an overseas assignment in which the inprocessing briefing they made that quite clear as the day began with a PT speech and ended with a PT speech.

Im not trying to wine and dine but i am just sick of letting PT run my life.