New Army Marksmanship and P.T. coming ???

[ArmyBrave1]

This article in the Army Times has said that new changes are on the way.

Does anyone know what the new p.t. requirements are for some one in the male and age 30-35 bracket ?

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2009/10/army_basic_101709w/

[MCGYVER]

The changes aren't going to be simply revised standards on the current P.T. test. The changes are going to be completely different P.T. and a whole new test. The test will most likely be push-ups (1 minute), sit-ups (2 minutes), pull-ups (30 seconds), and a 1 mile run. Or something relatively close to that. It will be a while before the changes are finalized and instituted though.

[justin0495]

McGyver,

If those are in fact the new proposed rules, which I doubt, what's your source? This could easily turn into one of those famous Army rumors.

The article was about a newly appointed General who is in command for initial training for all soldiers, enlisted and officer. So, his changes would only affect those during IET and not the trained Army.

But, it would make little sense to train and test soldiers one way and test them (us) differently after IET. Seems to me that standards that McGyver cites are actually easier. Sit ups need only be changed so that we are not holding our hands behind our heads during the sit-up. This actually puts more strain on and can injure the neck. The arms should be crossed over the chest during the sit-up. The 2 mile run should be kept. Not only is it a good distance for most (I don't start to sweat until 1.5 miles or so), it's also a mental endurance test.

What should really be taught throughout one's Army career is diet and nutrition choices and training NCOs how to actually conduct a PT session that alternates between muscular strength and cardio. Too many PT formation leaders are not educated enough to concentrate on one or the other. Too often it's a battery of push-ups, sit-ups, and a formation run. This is exactly what NOT to do to get one in shape.

FM 21-20 addresses this. Perhaps the new General should just emphasize reading the reg and doing sit-ups with arms across the chest. Bam! Changes made. It's not rocket science...

[RONALD45]

uuuhhhhmmm yeah, we have been "revising" the PT standards since at least the early 90's and marksmanship soon followed. It is now 2009 almost 15 years later, still doing the same PT test and firing the same m-16 rifles (or the m-4 variant). Nothing has changed, and nothing probably will.

[MCGYVER]

Justin, read my previous reply again. It says "most likely". That's by design to keep any rumors from happening. Rumors will still happen anyway because that's what bored Soldiers do to help pass the time. If you don't think that LTG Hertling will affect the P.T. you do in the future or how you conduct Marksmanship in the coming years then I feel sorry for you. If it takes you a mile and a half to start sweating you are either a) a world class Olympic runner b) severely dehydrated from a previous nights drinking binge or c) a slacker who does enough to get by and that's it. I'm putting my money on b or c. Oh, putting your hands across your chest is a sissy sit-up and probably would be better accepted in the Air Force. I have NEVER in my 19 years heard of a neck injury (even a slight one) from sit-ups. That's funny right thar.

[MCGYVER]

"uuuhhhhmmm yeah, we have been "revising" the PT standards since at least the early 90's and marksmanship soon followed. It is now 2009 almost 15 years later, still doing the same PT test and firing the same m-16 rifles (or the m-4 variant). Nothing has changed, and nothing probably will."
Pretty pessimistic. Maybe you should find a new line of work then.

[justin0495]

Justin, read my previous reply again. It says "most likely". That's by design to keep any rumors from happening. Rumors will still happen anyway because that's what bored Soldiers do to help pass the time. If you don't think that LTG Hertling will affect the P.T. you do in the future or how you conduct Marksmanship in the coming years then I feel sorry for you. If it takes you a mile and a half to start sweating you are either a) a world class Olympic runner b) severely dehydrated from a previous nights drinking binge or c) a slacker who does enough to get by and that's it. I'm putting my money on b or c. Oh, putting your hands across your chest is a sissy sit-up and probably would be better accepted in the Air Force. I have NEVER in my 19 years heard of a neck injury (even a slight one) from sit-ups. That's funny right thar.

McG,

I'll give you points about being bored soldiers. Been there done that plenty of times. But, I take issue with your other statements. Go to any gym across this great country and actually talk with or train with a qualified fitness professional and they'll tell you the same thing about the sit-ups. And, they'd be appaled at how we physically train ourselves.

By the way, I'm neither a, b, or c. Although I've been b plenty of times. I'm 35 and have yet to NOT pass a PT test in the 17-21 year age category. I don't do organized PT but I do go to the gym 4-5 times a week and do a variety of circuits, cardio, group exercises, all on different days like how it's supposed to be done. So, you can keep your "sissy" comments. It's attitudes and ignorance of people like you that puts soldiers on profiles. I bet you're one of those NCOs that demands Privates to "suck it up" when they are actually sick instead of taking care of them and ordering them to sick call. Grow up, do some research, or actually read a reg or two and see what FM 21-20 says about PT.

As others have posted, PT has been looked at for years in the Army and it rarely gets changed. IET and TRADOC soldiers train under the "new PT program" (rightly so, it's actually a good program) but us line units still do the good 'ole push-ups, sit-ups, kill your knees and back formation runs. So, we'll see how well this new LTG does.

[RONALD45]

As others have posted, PT has been looked at for years in the Army and it rarely gets changed. IET and TRADOC soldiers train under the "new PT program" (rightly so, it's actually a good program) but us line units still do the good 'ole push-ups, sit-ups, kill your knees and back formation runs. So, we'll see how well this new LTG does.

Of course IET Soldiers get trained under the new PT program, only makes sense considering most of em can't PASS the PT test under the old program. You know got to keep those new recruits happy, no matter how far we have to lower the standards to do it. Why if we make it too hard on them we will have to fail a good number, then the Army looks bad and as most have said on here it is not about standards anymore it is about perception. However I will agree the push up, sit up, run routine is as outdated as the m-16 rifle we still carry.

[MCGYVER]

McG,

By the way, I'm neither a, b, or c. Although I've been b plenty of times. I'm 35 and have yet to NOT pass a PT test in the 17-21 year age category. I don't do organized PT but I do go to the gym 4-5 times a week and do a variety of circuits, cardio, group exercises, all on units still do the good 'ole push-ups, sit-ups, kill your knees and back formation runs. So, we'll see how well this new LTG does.

Nobody that is actually pushing themselves on a two mile run can get to a mile and a half without already having a heavy coat of sweat. It's not physically possible. Either you are giving it your all or you aren't. No, I don't tell my Soldiers to "suck it up and drive on" unless I know for a fact they are bullshitting. I take care of my Soldiers because a) I'm a professional and b) it's the right thing to do
We will agree to disagree on the situps. I would love to read about a Soldier (any Soldier) that was injured from doing a regular army sit-up. That would be in the comics section. There is always room for improvement but some people's perception of improvement is simply "softening up". Take it for what it's worth. And I'm quite familiar with FM 21-20, thanks though.

[Griz882]

I think many of you are missing the point. This is the first time in American history where a professional army (all volunteer force) is fighting a protracted war. In WWII we got soldiers strong quickly, then got them fat, then put them in combat where they burned hot and bright unitl the war was over.

But first, some truth in advertising. I am a wide-body, a needs-to-be-taped lard ass that can still slam out 80 situps in two minutes and do 50 push ups. My run time, well that is another matter. I run what ever the minimum is for my age group because I believe long distance running is a physical waste of time that measures nothing as it isn't long enough (now, have a 15 mile 55 lb ruck march over variable terrain and there is a true measure of strenght and endurance)

But, back to the topic. Today every soldier trained is seen as an investment in the future of the force. The current APFT and Army Physical Training Program simply are not related to the conditions of the modern battlefield. I've been to Afghanistan, I've been to Iraq, and I've been to a few places on the fringes of the GWOT and nowhere did I see a single soldier fighting or working in silky shorts and $80 running shoes.

What I hope the article means is that the army will wake up from its time-and-motion business model that measures physical performance on an annual with a test that has nothing to do with health, fitness, or combat and turn to a model where soldiers are consistantly evaluated on their daily physical performance in an MOS based model. I hope we are at last going to train fighters for the fight, not joggers for the race.

[MCGYVER]

Totally agree with Grizz. I am a large (muscular) guy that is built for strength, not speed. I can run for much longer distances (albeit at a slower pace) than most others. I can knock out 70 push-ups and 65 sit-ups in two minutes but my 2 mile run time is not that great. I can take the overwhelming majority of 300+ P.T. studs in combatives, boxing, and most other man on man competitions. The point is, like Grizz said, your P.T. score hardly relates to how well you would perform your duty, protect the force or survive in combat.