USAF Hand to Hand Combat

[ArmyBrave1]

This was one of General LeMay's programs for hand to hand combat in the 1960's.

Look for the video titled " USAF Personal Protection "

http://www.thelasersshadow.com/Martial%20Arts%20Page.html

Does that look anything like the current army brazilian jiu jitsu program which will get most people killed in a bar room brawl or on the battlefield ?

This was back in the days when the U.S. Air Force was known for being very hardcore.

The airmen from the V.F.W. said that p.t. and hand to hand combat sessions were done every morning.

I would like to see that be brought back.

[Shadowless]

Yeah but no one really cares what you want. Congrats, I heard you got promoted to fryer duty at Mcdonalds!

[SailorDave]

Yeah but no one really cares what you want. Congrats, I heard you got promoted to fryer duty at Mcdonalds!

I fail to see how this is a constructive answer to his question. Are you intentionally trying to be a jerk or was that an accident ?

[TJMAC77SP]

It was a grenade, thrown by a cretin. Ignore it.

[fufu]

Hand to hand combat???? Who I am going to fight.............My computer?

[ArmyBrave1]

You guys are clearly ignorant of the history behind General LeMay's historical attempts to retain hard-core hand to hand combat skills for the United States Air Force.

[Measure Man]

A History of the Strategic Air Command (SAC)
and Its Combative Measures Program

The Strategic Air Command or SAC (1946-1992) was the operational establishment of the United States Air Force in charge of America's bomber-based and ballistic missile-based strategic nuclear arsenal, as well as the infrastructure necessary to support their operations (such as tanker aircraft to fuel the bombers and, until 1959, fighter escorts).
On 21 March1946 the United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) was divided into three separate commands: Tactical Air Command (TAC), Air Defense Command (ADC), and Strategic Air Command (SAC). SAC's original headquarters was Bolling Field, the headquarters of the disbanded Continental Air Force, in Washington, DC. Its first commander was General George C. Kenney.

General Curtis E. LeMay took over as commander of SAC in October 1948 and set about a dramatic rebuilding of the command's forces, as well as their mission. LeMay, who had masterminded the American attacks on the Japanese mainland during the war (including the firebombing of Tokyo and other cities), was a staunch believer in the power of strategic bombing: the destruction of an enemy's cities and industrial centers. LeMay believed that the existence of the atomic bomb made this type of warfare the only workable strategy, rendering battlefield conflicts essentially obsolete.

During World War II, US bomber groups in Europe suffered more combat casualties than did the US Marine Corps in the Pacific. Many of the lost airmen ended up in German POW camps, and as a result a generation of US Air Force officers were firm believers in tough, realistic escape and evasion training. So, when Lt. General Curtis LeMay took over the Strategic Air Command (SAC), he was determined that all of his flying personnel would have some working knowledge of hand-to-hand combat to aid in escape and evasion. He felt that Judo would be a foundation for this training and that Judo combined with other phases of a conditioning program would keep crew members physically and mentally alert, thus helping them to endure the pressure of long missions.

In 1950 General LeMay directed the setting up of a model physical conditioning unit at Offutt Air Force Base, Omaha, Nebraska, the home of SAC headquarters. So successful did it prove during its test run that by January, 1951, LeMay directed that similar units be set up at other bases as rapidly as possible.

Although the value of training in purely combative measures was recognized, the finding of qualified instructors proved an especially difficult problem. Gen. LeMay appointed Emilio ("Mel") Bruno, a former National AAU Wrestling Champion and 5th-degree in judo, to direct the command-wide judo and combative measures program for SAC in 1951. Bruno formulated a new approach to military combat training, integrating parts of aikido, judo, and karate into a systematic unarmed combat technique. To implement his idea, he suggested a pilot program to Gen. LeMay, who was also one of Bruno's judo students. To assist Bruno in the field, SAC was able to find qualified civilian judo instructors to staff only six SAC bases; the rest had physical conditioning units, but no judo instructors. As a solution, SAC decided to train its own instructors.

In 1952, Air Training Command (ATC) took over the Strategic Air Command program. In direct charge of the judo and conditioning program for SAC was Gen. Thomas Power, later honorary chairman of the National AAU Judo Committee. Because of the obvious deficiency of instructors, Power sent two classes of airmen (24 men) to the Kodokan Institute in Tokyo, the Mecca of judo, in 1952 for several weeks training. This was the first such training for any Armed Forces group.

In 1953 Emilio Bruno invited ten martial arts instructors of judo and karate to participate in a now famous four-month tour of every SAC base in the U.S. and Cuba. The tour was of course financially backed and supported by SAC. The touring group included seven judoka (Sumiyuki Kotani, Tadao Otaki, Kenji Tomiki, Kusuo Hosokawa, Tsuyoshi Sato, Takahiko Ishikawa and Kiyoshi Kobayashi) and three karate dignitaries (Hidetaka Nishiyama, Toshio Kamada, and Isao Obata, a Japan Karate Association [JKA] co-founder and senior disciple of Gichin Funakoshi). Mr. Kotani was the leader as well as organizer of the group.
The purpose of this tour was to train judo instructors and combat crews and to give exhibitions on and off base. Many civilian judo clubs had their first visit from high-ranking judo teachers as a result of this tour. One of the highlights of the tour was a demonstration at the White House on July 22.

With Gen. LeMay's endorsement and SAC's sponsorship, Bruno also initiated eight-week training programs for Air Force instructors at the Kodokan. A few hand-picked airmen, with previous experience in physical training or combative sports, were sent to the Kodokan for advanced combatives training by the world’s foremost experts. This course was a Japanese-designed mix of Judo, Karate, Aikido and Taiho Jutsu. Kodokan officials contacted the JKA to manage the karate instruction. The JKA responded by sending the famed delegation of Nishiyama, Obata, Okazaki, and Terada. Judo instruction was provided by Kodokan greats Kotani, Otaki, Takagake, Sato, Shinojima, and Yamaguchi. Aikido instruction was led by Tomiki, along with Yamada and Inuzuka, while the all important instruction in Taiho-Jutsu was given by Hosokawa and Kikuchi. The SAC airmen attended class at the dojo for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, and at the end of the course had to compete against and be evaluated by ten Black Belts. Upon returning to the United States, these airmen became instructors at every SAC base where it was important to develop combatives courses for crewmen in training.

A poster for this 320 hour program listed the following “Combative Activity Training Values”:

Physical Coordination, Balance, Relaxation, Combative Skill and General Physical tuning up
Mental and Physical Alertness as required under combat conditions
Confidence, Self Assurance, Courage, Aggressiveness and Self Control
Ability to Escape / Defend while in dangerous areas
Knowledge of Leverage as applied to situations requiring techniques of restraint In 1955 seventy men from SAC and the Air Research and Development Command (ARDC) journeyed to the Kodokan for instruction. In 1956 SAC and ARDC sent 280 Air Policemen to the Kodokan to participate in four week classes.

Curtis LeMay left SAC to become USAF Vice Chief of Staff in 1957, and was succeeded by General Thomas S. Power, who served as SAC commander until December 1964. He was followed by General John Dale Ryan (1964-1967).

From 1959 until 1966 the Air Force Combative Measures (Judo) Instructor Course was held at Stead Air Force Base in Reno, Nevada. The 155 hours course consisted of the following: 36 hours fundamental Judo, 12 hours Aikido, 12 hours Karate, 12 hours Air Police techniques; 12 hours air crew self-defense, 18 hours Judo tournament procedures, 5 hours Code of Conduct and 48 hours training methods. There was also a 20 hour combative measures course and a 12 hour combative survival course for air crew members.

By 1962 SAC had more than 160 Black Belt Combative Measures instructors and more than 20,000 crew personnel had been trained in combative measures. The US Air Force Survival School history acknowledges that the "Combative Measures course was extremely successful but, in an effort to reduce aircrew training time [during the Vietnam buildup] and to reduce spending, it was dropped from the [Survival School] course."

Today, while there are many Americans who learned the arts of judo, karate, aikido, and taiho-jutsu as part of this unique and arguably unparalleled program, there is, sadly, no institutional memory of the program within the active Air Force or its historical branch.

In 1992, following the collapse of the Soviet Union, SAC's goal of Cold War victory was achieved and it was eliminated in a reorganization of the major Air Force commands. SAC, TAC (Tactical Air Command), and MAC (Military Airlift Command) were reorganized into two commands, AMC (Air Mobility Command) and ACC (Air Combat Command). These two commands were essentially given the same missions that MAC and TAC held respectively, with AMC inheriting SAC's tanker force and ACC inheriting SAC's strategic bombers. The nuclear component was combined with the Navy's nuclear component to form USSTRATCOM (United States Strategic Command) which is headquartered at Offutt Air Force Base (SAC's former headquarters).

We could use another LeMay right about now...not necessarily for this combatives program, but just for his vision and ability to see it through.

[ringjamesa]

You guys are clearly ignorant of the history behind General LeMay's historical attempts to retain hard-core hand to hand combat skills for the United States Air Force.

Maybe you are ignorant of the history of his attempts to retain hand to hand combat skills for the USAF and are even more ignorant of the lack of such a need for said skills in todays AF. If you notice, he said he wanted the skills for all of his FLIGHT CREWS. I know you are a civilian and think everyone in the AF flies a plane but that just isn't so. Not only are most of today's AF members not on flight crews, when is the last time a a 7 man bomber crew was shot down behind enemy lines? I am all for survival training for flight crews....oh wait, that's right, anyone that was or is in the USAF would know all flight crews already go through said survival training....

What was your point again?

[ArmyBrave1]

The air force as a whole needs to do hand to hand combat and p.t. sessions every morning and before lights out, from the mechanic right down to the air force personnel manning the computers to the pilot fighters.

Both the officer and enlisted air corps should do h2h and p.t. every morning and night before lights out.

That was the hope General LeMay had, after initially training the pilots in hard-core old school judo. He wanted this to go air force wide.

[ringjamesa]

The air force as a whole needs to do hand to hand combat and p.t. sessions every morning and before lights out, from the mechanic right down to the air force personnel manning the computers to the pilot fighters.

Both the officer and enlisted air corps should do h2h and p.t. every morning and night before lights out.

That was the hope General LeMay had, after initially training the pilots in hard-core old school judo. He wanted this to go air force wide.

Did he tell you that at your last outing to the tent in your backyard with you Ouiji board? That isn't what he said when he was alive you you must be channeling the dead. After you serve 10-15 years lets see how eager you are to live in an open bay barraks and get up every morning for PT and do PT before you go to bed-on top of the 8-12 hour day you just did at your JOB....oh wait what am I thinking, after you serve 1 DAY in the military you will have a better perspective on how absurd your stupid ramblings are...

[ArmyBrave1]

Thank you Measure Man, I could not have said it better myself. Thank you for the article.

Ringjamesa, I take great offense to your post. I am a Christian and do not believe in the occult.

If the entire U.S. Armed Forces, every branch of the services had mandatory hand to hand combat and physical training sessions every a.m. and p.m.

Not with that UFC crap that will get people killed but with Fairbairn, Sykes and Applegate old school hard-core hand to hand combat and that of General LeMay's hard-core judo program that will save lives.

We would be very well prepared if and when WW III strikes, as the enemy no doubt is well versed in hand to hand combat and extreme physical fitness.

We could be technologically superior but are we physically superior in the warrior arts ?

If we all in the armed services had both then we would kick their ass to the curb with horrifying ease in every category in the physical warfare department.

The enemy would have PTSD for years to come with phantom, very frightening hand to hand combat that leaves even the most seasoned combat veteran with psychologically scarred chests in their souls, even the bones are shaking in the legs, he is crying unceasingly with mind numbing terrifying re-plays of the night he almost got killed in hand to hand combat so phantom, that it has not been seen before or since then.

WW II and Korean veterans will know exactly what I am talking about and they will tell you.

The feared and respected German soldiers and the bantam lightening fast Japanese excelling in the art of frighteningly suicidal hand to hand combat in Europe and the Pacific.

Both the North and South Koreans trained 7 days a week, 365 days in p.t. and hand to hand combat. No excuses at all. Notice that, NO EXCUSES.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DQzokgGS7g

Take a look at the US Army FM 21-150 from 1954. You can get this from Paladin Press then you will understand what the US military veterans went through during the Korean War.

Take a look at the yellow edition of 1943 Kill or Get Killed, Get Tough ! and the US Navy V-5 hand to hand combat, boxing and wrestling from WW II also available from Paladin Press.

If you spend some time listening to WWII and Korean vets talking about frightening and horrifying hand to hand combat encounters at the American Legion or the VFW.

You may not believe them because men were insanely physically fit for what they had to do back then during the war.

The Chinese communists and the North Koreans along with platoons of special crack Soviet units used to fight in human waves of hand to hand combat.

I am sure the Vietnamese had very intense hand to hand training during the Vietnam War and this probably showed up during the surprise Tet Offensive or the fire bases getting ferociously attacked with human waves of Vietcong guerrillas and the professional soviet trained North Vietnamese soldiers.

I believe the USMC said it best, " Every man a rifleman from the desk jockey to the aircraft or the tank mechanic " so should the US Armed Forces say

" Every man an expert in hand to hand combat. "

[MaintChief]

Are you for real? You have absolutely no fucking clue of what you are talking about. Stop watching old war movies. My Dad is a combat vet of WWII and Korea. He NEVER engaged in hand-to-hand with an enemy combatant. And he was on the scenic tour of North Africa and then the guided tour of France and Belgium in 1944. He started out in the field arty and then an MP for 18 years. The only hand-to-hand he had to engage in was with disorderly drunks. Enemy soldiers received the business end of a M-1 Garand.

We don't live in barracks and we don't have "lights-out" outside of basic training. Do some research of what the military and especially the AF is about before you continue to spout your uninformed, romantic bullshit.

[Texpat]

As a recent AF retiree, I think it's a wonderful idea. (he he he)

Yeah, PT just before "lights out." Too much!

[DogPile12]

As a recent AF retiree, I think it's a wonderful idea. (he he he)

Yeah, PT just before "lights out." Too much!

Since I've been out of USAF for years, I agree that this is an excellent suggestion. USAF should also reduce sleeping to 5 hrs per night, and ban fornicating with your dependent spouse.

What're you doing inThailand? Did you go native?? ;)

[Texpat]

Yeah, I couldn't stand all that marching around post and pulling KP in the chow hall.
Gone native -- moved here 4 years ago and built a home on the Mekong.

It beats the hell out of sunrise reveille and endlessly shining my boots!

[ArmyBrave1]

You guys just don't get it. :rolleyes:

Right now the Russians, a year ago sent their airplane bombers armed with nuclear weapons to Venezuela and some are parked on the Cuban base.

China and North Korea are poised to run over Japan right up to the mainland of the U.S.A in a military invasion.

Can you picture California being attacked with all their liberal laws

( Good examples: Disarmament of gun control by the U.S. politicians who have sold out the U.S.A. and are in bed with the communists and socialists etc )

You got the illegal immigrants shouting Viva La Mexico and the Al Qaeda screaming Allah Akbar as they cross the Tex-Mex border.

The nuclear suitcase scenario is another nightmare scenario. The Russians during the Cold War had nuclear suitcases under lock and key at the Russian embassy.

This is not a new concept thought up by the Al Qaeda. Who do you think taught the Al Qaeda to make nuclear suitcases ? Of course, The Russians.

Now if you have this scenario, where do you think hand to hand combat will come into play ?

After the bullets are spent, bayonets get broken then what is left ?

Good old fashioned ass kickin' hand to hand combat.

Maybe this will bring things into perspective. This is a video game but a very good example of what the scenario of WW III may look like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4opuQy_33k

[Measure Man]

You guys just don't get it. :rolleyes:

Right now the Russians, a year ago sent their airplane bombers armed with nuclear weapons to Venezuela and some are parked on the Cuban base.

China and North Korea are poised to run over Japan right up to the mainland of the U.S.A in a military invasion.

Can you picture California being attacked with all their liberal laws

( Good examples: Disarmament of gun control by the U.S. politicians who have sold out the U.S.A. and are in bed with the communists and socialists etc )

You got the illegal immigrants shouting Viva La Mexico and the Al Qaeda screaming Allah Akbar as they cross the Tex-Mex border.

The nuclear suitcase scenario is another nightmare scenario. The Russians during the Cold War had nuclear suitcases under lock and key at the Russian embassy.

This is not a new concept thought up by the Al Qaeda. Who do you think taught the Al Qaeda to make nuclear suitcases ? Of course, The Russians.

Now if you have this scenario, where do you think hand to hand combat will come into play ?

After the bullets are spent, bayonets get broken then what is left ?

Good old fashioned ass kickin' hand to hand combat.

Maybe this will bring things into perspective. This is a video game but a very good example of what the scenario of WW III may look like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4opuQy_33k

So, what're you waiting for...you should be running over to your recruiters office NOW!

[ArmyBrave1]

So, what're you waiting for...you should be running over to your recruiters office NOW!


That is what I am doing right now. I am leaning toward the decision to be an officer in the U.S. Army.

Hopefully and prayerfully, I will be able to make very important changes to hand to hand combat field manuals so that it is very hard-core and none of that silly ground fighting so prevalent in MACP or MCMAP.

It is my opinion that hand to hand combat needs to be an joint service top priority concern by all the U.S. Armed Services.

[Battleshort]

That is what I am doing right now. I am leaning toward the decision to be an officer in the U.S. Army.

Hopefully and prayerfully, I will be able to make very important changes to hand to hand combat field manuals so that it is very hard-core and none of that silly ground fighting so prevalent in MACP or MCMAP.

It is my opinion that hand to hand combat needs to be an joint service top priority concern by all the U.S. Armed Services.

ROTFL!!!!!!

You will be just another nub 2nd LT.

[Seasons]

That is what I am doing right now. I am leaning toward the decision to be an officer in the U.S. Army.

Hopefully and prayerfully, I will be able to make very important changes to hand to hand combat field manuals so that it is very hard-core and none of that silly ground fighting so prevalent in MACP or MCMAP.

It is my opinion that hand to hand combat needs to be an joint service top priority concern by all the U.S. Armed Services.

Sure.

In 6-10 years when you reach Major. If.

[TJMAC77SP]

I think Rastaman left the door to the Hemp Room unlocked again.

[Zwerge]

Yeah but no one really cares what you want. Congrats, I heard you got promoted to fryer duty at Mcdonalds!

Ditto! Besides a good firearm always wins!

[Zwerge]

[/QUOTE=[Originally Posted by ArmyBrave1]
That is what I am doing right now. I am leaning toward the decision to be an officer in the U.S. Army.

Hopefully and prayerfully, I will be able to make very important changes to hand to hand combat field manuals so that it is very hard-core and none of that silly ground fighting so prevalent in MACP or MCMAP.

It is my opinion that hand to hand combat needs to be an joint service top priority concern by all the U.S. Armed Services [QUOTE]





Thank god I'm not in the Army and would have to put up with the likes of you and your psycho ideas. Probably will read about you someday in the news....going off postal somewhere.

[JD2780]

While in hawaii I did MCMAP, and became an instructor basic and advanced L.I.N.E. combatives. I dabbled in the army program while at Ft lewis. I'm all for the AF working a combatives program. I think it should be part of basic. With all the people pulling ILO/JET taskings they have a need to know this stuff. If the convoy you're in gets hit and you're vehicles broken down, yea I know you're all rambo and would shoot your way out, but you're dazed as hadj tries to snag your from your truck to hack off your head on TV so you're family can see the video on the internet. Wouldnt you like to have somewhat of a fighting chance in this situation? Or would most of you like the well I'm a computer person, or i'm a mechanic and I dont know what to do. Lets all get some for of combatives even if its the basics. I'm sure there is something that could be cut from basic and they could add that to the "beast"

Cant wait to see what happens with this.

[ChiefB]

Gen LeMay's intention was for his aircrews to be physically conditioned and knowledgeable in martial arts for the purpose of building stamina for long hours of flight and to assist in evasion and escape. Not, to combat the enemy in force.

The U.S. Army and Marines have always taught rifle combat defensive man-to-man training with bayonets affixed, etc.

The vaunted WWI/WWII German Wermach/SS ....defeated. Unconditional Surrender.

The vaunted Japanese Soldier....defeated. Unconditional Surrender.

The Vaunted NVA/Viet Cong ......defeated, never won an encounter with U.S. Forces. Tet offensive was a resounding defeat for NVA/VC .... Peace treaty '73

The Vaunted North Korean Army.... Defeated/standoff. Treaty signed.

The Vaunted Russian Army .... Afghanistan ......Defeated.

The Vaunted Iraqi Republican Guard .... defeated.. 100 hrs.

The lowly, untrained, unheralded U.S. Armed Forces .... Never been defeated in any Major conflict in 234 yrs.

In no war have the martial arts played any part in our survival. In all U.S. wars and conflicts in addition to our industrial strength and technology, the much vaunted independence, acceptance of responsibility, leadership and initiative of Junior Officers and NCOs of the U.S. military, on the battlefield, have carried the day.

Just sayin'

ChiefB

[JD2780]

Even if its not martial arts some basic self defense moves need to be taught. Most airmen couldnt get themselves out of a wet paper bag.

[Shrike]

Even if its not martial arts some basic self defense moves need to be taught. Most airmen couldnt get themselves out of a wet paper bag.

Why?



.

[JD2780]

Why? Because it would be good to know how to fight when you're convoy gets blasted and your vehicle is disabled and you're slowly coming to but by that point the enemy has you and is yanking you out of your truck. I've had to use combatives on one occasion out of 4 deployments. So its one of those things will you need it? Not necessarily, but would it be nice to have in the event you do need it.

Thats like saying why do airmen on and air base overseas need rifles.

[Shrike]

Why? Because it would be good to know how to fight when you're convoy gets blasted and your vehicle is disabled and you're slowly coming to but by that point the enemy has you and is yanking you out of your truck. I've had to use combatives on one occasion out of 4 deployments. So its one of those things will you need it? Not necessarily, but would it be nice to have in the event you do need it.

Thats like saying why do airmen on and air base overseas need rifles.

So are you advocating providing this training to everyone, or just those who's deployed job necessitates it?

And what airmen at overseas air bases are issued rifles? Are you referring to OIF/OEF bases or all bases?

[CLSE]

It's like the ejection seat - the chances of ever needing to use one are slim, but if the time comes to use it, your life will depend on it.

I distinctly remember arguing with people in the Air Force about this and similar subjects when I was on active duty in the '90s, and they swore up and down then that Air Force personnel would never be deployed somewhere that they had to carry a weapon to defend themselves.

Maybe I'm weird, but I think being able to defend myself is a good thing.

Besides, the Marines include combatives as part of their physical fitness training, if the Air Force leadership wants everybody to be "Fit to Fight"...

[ChiefB]

Let's look at AF training:

Who gets "in-residence" SERE training? Only those who's jobs would "most likely" require expertise in Survival, Evasion, Resistance or Escape. We all could use the training, might like the training or would like the experience....but we all don't "need" the training.

AF trains it's people based on "need" not nice to have in the improbable event of need.

AF does not "need" Hand to Hand combat warriors except in very small communities.

AF does not "need" combat arms skilled personnel except in very small communities.

AF deploys many personnel to foreign countries that are not of our "Native language". But we train very few in foreign languages because there is very little need. We would all like to speak Farsi/Arabic, but there is little need for the average airman to be fluent.

If the AF "Needs" you to be a Delta, Ninja operative, it will train you accordingly.

Just sayin'

ChiefB

[JD2780]

No but every airmen learns to fire a rifle, and carries a rifle in country. Why do they NEED a weapon? Its improbable that they will ever fire it.

[ChiefB]

No but every airmen learns to fire a rifle, and carries a rifle in country. Why do they NEED a weapon? Its improbable that they will ever fire it.

Get real, JD. Self defense weapons are a need the AF says it has in "Combat Zones", regardless of the mission or probability.

It is one of the few situations that the AF would consider it folly to not so equip and train its people on the basis of morale and perception.

Civilian Cops carry weapons and most will go to retirement without ever firing a round on duty. Perception and morale are at work there also, in addition to the slight probability.

Ya feel me?

ChiefB

[CLSE]

Chief,

If you get in a situation where you need to use your personal weapon, you are in a situation where you could very well have to engage in hand-to-hand combat.

It's easy to say the chances of needing it are minimal, but I'll bet the statistics of it wouldn't matter a bloody bit to you if you're the one wrestling with a bad guy.

If the Air Force wants every airman to be able to second as a "warrior", then they should back it up by ensuring that every airman has the necessary skills to be a warrior.

[JD2780]

ChiefB your arguement saying they need a rifle in a combat zone although they will most likely never use supports my hand to hand arguement. If an Airman is firing a rifle on an AB or a FOB then those tgts will most likely get close enough to be engaged in hand to hand due to the fact of when stuff like that happens information flow doesnt happen as quickly as we'd like. Now am I saying we wouldnt be the turds back heck no. I am saying that we would have Airmen arranging meetings between the enemy and his virgins.

[ChiefB]

ChiefB your argument saying they need a rifle in a combat zone although they will most likely never use supports my hand to hand argument. If an Airman is firing a rifle on an AB or a FOB then those tgts will most likely get close enough to be engaged in hand to hand due to the fact of when stuff like that happens information flow doesn't happen as quickly as we'd like. Now am I saying we wouldn't be the turds back heck no. I am saying that we would have Airmen arranging meetings between the enemy and his virgins.

"It is one of the few situations that the AF would consider it folly to not so equip and train its people on the basis of morale and perception."

It is not "my" argument for weapons.... it is AF policy. That policy is an exception to the literal term "need for".

The AF recognizes that it would be demoralizing and folly to not provide an American fighting man any means of self defense other than his bare hands, if sent to a "Combat Zone".

This does not add to any argument to provide him with "hand-to-hand combat" training, also. If you can't see the difference and the exception to the rule then I am probably not communicating adequately.

I will agree that it would be confidence building and a good skill to be trained in HTH combat techniques, but not providing it to all personnel is for the same reason they don't provide an APC/Humvee to each airman while deployed. It would be nice but not very cost effective and not very "needed".

ChiefB

[Shrike]

Chief,

If you get in a situation where you need to use your personal weapon, you are in a situation where you could very well have to engage in hand-to-hand combat.

It's easy to say the chances of needing it are minimal, but I'll bet the statistics of it wouldn't matter a bloody bit to you if you're the one wrestling with a bad guy.

If the Air Force wants every airman to be able to second as a "warrior", then they should back it up by ensuring that every airman has the necessary skills to be a warrior.

The USAF has done absolutely nothing to show it wants every airman to be able to second as a "warrior". Well, except for meaningless talk, that is.

[JD2780]

Chief we already have qualified instructors. it wouldnt cost anything except our base pay and special duty pay down at lackland. We already have paid instructors.

You did clear up your position though in the bottom of your comment. I respect your position, but still disagree because I'm hard headed and a type A personality!!. The A my wife says stands for asshole.

[ChiefB]

Chief we already have qualified instructors. it wouldn't cost anything except our base pay and special duty pay down at lackland. We already have paid instructors.

You did clear up your position though in the bottom of your comment. I respect your position, but still disagree because I'm hard headed and a type A personality!!. The A my wife says stands for asshole.

I respectfully disagree with your wife. I've seen your comments on these threads and consider you an interesting poster.

I don't always agree with your comments but that's what makes for lively discussions.

However, considering your background and training, I'm removing my home address from my profile.:eek:

ChiefB

[CMSBROWN]

Let's look at AF training:

Who gets "in-residence" SERE training? Only those who's jobs would "most likely" require expertise in Survival, Evasion, Resistance or Escape. We all could use the training, might like the training or would like the experience....but we all don't "need" the training.

AF trains it's people based on "need" not nice to have in the improbable event of need.

AF does not "need" Hand to Hand combat warriors except in very small communities.

AF does not "need" combat arms skilled personnel except in very small communities.

AF deploys many personnel to foreign countries that are not of our "Native language". But we train very few in foreign languages because there is very little need. We would all like to speak Farsi/Arabic, but there is little need for the average airman to be fluent.

If the AF "Needs" you to be a Delta, Ninja operative, it will train you accordingly.

Just sayin'

ChiefB

I already have my cool BLACK OPS NINJA UNDERTHERADAR I CAN KILL YOU WITH ONE FINGER TRAINING!

Just saying....:cool:

[ChiefB]

I already have my cool BLACK OPS NINJA UNDERTHERADAR I CAN KILL YOU WITH ONE FINGER TRAINING!

Just saying....:cool:

Stop! Stop! You're killing me! :D

ChiefB

[CMSBROWN]

Stop! Stop! You're killing me! :D

ChiefB

See and it was just that easy! :cool:

[Lang]

Thats a great find of that old AF H2H combat training film! used to watch that on 16mm film back in the day in Asia when we wore pickle suits and were allowed to have fun and the important thing in the AF was the JOB, the MISSION not your political skills or how much of a P/C talking dog yes man you could be.. It's corny Cqc but I am sure that skinny old dude doing the demos was a tuff devil who could take care of him self and his troops!

H2H Tx for all Air Force members would be a good thing IMO but no way it will every fly- far to much resistance to exercise in the AF at any level. Just the idea of martial arts TX AF wide sends people running to the hawc to sit in the massage chair and eat a cheese burger. Ha ha! Jk! Anyway, you would have to have skilled AF people who could train instruct people in CQC without hurting them . That's not gonna happen. AF people typically do not join the AF to learn how to fight they are not interested in that. Even exercise is a tuff sell to AF people at all levels. IMO thats why leadership failed to provide/demand proper physical fitness TX for AF people prior to our current wars. That's how warfit came about when surprise! we were in a war and AF. troops had a hard time keeping up.

As for the warrior VS chair force AF thing, its simple- If your job does not require you to deploy if all you need to do is sit in your chair, maybe your job should be comverted to contracter or GS???

Thanks for the old film fun to see that again!

[Shrike]

Thats a great find of that old AF H2H combat training film! used to watch that on 16mm film back in the day in Asia when we wore pickle suits and were allowed to have fun and the important thing in the AF was the JOB, the MISSION not your political skills or how much of a P/C talking dog yes man you could be.. It's corny Cqc but I am sure that skinny old dude doing the demos was a tuff devil who could take care of him self and his troops!

H2H Tx for all Air Force members would be a good thing IMO but no way it will every fly far to much resistance to exercise in the AF at any level. Just the idea of martial arts TX AF wide sends people running to the hawc to sit in the massage chair and eat a cheese burger. Ha ha! Jk! Anyway you would have to have skilled AF people who could train instruct people in CQC without hurting them . That's not gonna happen. AF people typically do not join the AF to learn how to fight they are not interested in that. even exercise is a tuff sell to AF people at all levels. IMO thats why leadership failed to provide/demeand proper phyical fitness TX for AF people prior to our current wars. That how warfit came about when surprise! we were in a war and AF. troops had a hard time keeping up.

As for the warrior VS chair force AF thing, its simple- If your job does not require you to deploy if all you need to do is sit in your chair, maybe your job should be comverted to contracter or GS???

Thanks for the old film fun to see that again!
Do you have any data to back that statement up? Because seeing that the USAF had been generating sorties in the desert for over 12 continuous years prior to OIF/OEF, I think it's bullsh$t.

[Aitrus]

Shrike,

I think he means the Airmen on the ground outside the fence not keeping up with the sister services. The other services generally don't consider generating sorties as hard combat, unless the pilot himself is ducking and weaving.

For example, I know that it was suggested to the EOD field to step up their ruck training and hill climbing endurances because of the problems guys downrange were having getting to the top of hills for helo pickups and long marches with gear. Misawa PA even did a bit story about it. http://www.misawa.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123185028

[J85]

Does anybody else remember trying out the stuff they learned in karate/judo/etc on their siblings?

I think it would be hilarious if the AF made everyone go to mandatory hand-to-hand combat training. Typical morning after training:

Hey dude, come here. Yeah, grab my arm. Other arm. MY other arm.....Gah, you're doing it wrong.

[JD2780]

My unit has conducted multiple hand to hand training classes and no our unit doesnt go around trying snap each others arms. Its called maturity and professionalism. Its like a weapon. Its ok if you guys down want your Airmen trained on how to defend themselves its cool. I get it. Atleast I know when my Airmen head out the door I've given them all the tools to survive and operate in a warzone. Even if they do wind up not making it home in one piece atleast I know I've given them the tools.

[Lang]

"I think he means the Airmen on the ground outside the fence not keeping up with the sister services"

You got it.. Its not really hard to keep up in a plane.

"For example, I know that it was suggested to the EOD field to step up their ruck training and hill climbing endurances because of the problems guys downrange were having getting to the top of hills for helo pickups and long marches with gear. Misawa PA even did a bit story about it."

Right- when 'war fit' first came about I was told that it was directed at the fact that Air Force people on the ground could not keep up with the sister services when deployed on the ground. After speaking with quite a few people who had deployed with sister services and returned, that seemed to be the case.

[Aitrus]

Lang,

That whole "Fit to Fight" thing isn't about being "Fit to Fight", that's just the advertising name they slapped on it. It's about 1) getting airmen to look better in their uniforms, 2) a good way for some higher up the chain to make their mark on the AF, and 3) lower healthcare costs and sick man-hours while the member is in the service.

Essentially, the AF PT test is geared toward the High School track star - Lean, fast over a short distance, not much stamina or strength, certainly no staying power to work all day, no core stability to carry weight.

Now, after all the complaining, they added a minimum standard that must be met, but it is laughable.

I think the worst part of it is that there is virtually no training with weighted gear to force the body to grow and adjust to carrying the additional weight. This will result in knee, back and shin injuries and muscle tears when the time comes to carry a ruck because the vehicle can't get everywhere or the order comes down to wear armor 24/7. This is why the EOD community is changing the way they PT.

Do I think that everybody needs to be able to carry a 75lb ruck 20 miles through mountains? No. Do I think that everybody needs to be able to set up tents all day while wearing armor should the situation demand it? Yes.

Is that standard being met? Not a chance.