Soldiers mixed on more expensive pin-on CSIB

[CommunityEditor]

The Army’s new Combat Service Identification Badge is now available in stores and on Web sites for soldiers to buy and display on the new Army Service Uniform.

The CSIB — a pin-on metal badge showing the insignia of major combat units — is for sale alongside the coveted sew-on combat patch it will replace over the next six years.

They cost between $11 and $16 and so far are approved for more than 75 active, National Guard and Reserve units. Depending on availability, soldiers can buy them at Army and Air Force Exchange Service clothing stores as well as commercial military clothing stores and Web sites.

The Army’s Institute of Heraldry began designing the new badges last year to give soldiers the option of displaying their combat service on the ASU, a revised version of the classic, dress blue uniform. Senior Army leaders in 2006 chose the ASU to replace the green Class As and Bs.

About 98 percent of soldiers surveyed by the Army expressed a desire to display combat credentials on the uniform, since the combat patch is not authorized for wear on the current dress blues, Army officials maintain.

As with the new uniform, the CSIB is receiving mixed reviews among soldiers.

Lt. Col. Todd Ressel doesn’t understand why the combat patch, formally known as the shoulder sleeve insignia-former wartime service, needed to be replaced.

“Why not a patch?” Ressel wrote in a letter to Army Times. “The dress blue uniform is not some holy garment that cannot be changed. Patches could have been placed on it.”

Unlike a sew-on patch, which was worn on the upper sleeve of the green Class A coat, this badge will be worn in the center of the right breast pocket of the Class A coat for men, and women will wear it on the coat’s waistline. The badge can also be worn on the Class B shirts in the same locations.

Sgt. Robert Clark, however, thinks the CSIB makes a lot of sense.

“I like the badges compared to the patch because you can always switch badges if you earned multiple CSIBs, and you don’t have the hassle of sewing on the patch to your ASU,” Clark wrote in a letter to Army Times.

First Lt. Joel McMichael said he prefers the less expensive combat patch to “another piece of metal I have to pin on my uniform, especially if it’s going to cost $11 to $16 per badge.”

Patches generally cost $2 to $5 and about $1.50 to have one sewn on the uniform.

Army uniform policy officials would not estimate when the CSIB effort will be complete.

“The CSIBs will continue to be developed until all the [shoulder sleeve insignia] have been converted to CSIBs,” said Hank Minetrez, spokesman for Army G1. CSIBs will be developed for active, National Guard and Reserve units, he said.

The batch of approved CSIBs includes all 10 active Army combat divisions. The list also includes several National Guard and Reserve units, as well as CSIBs for some corps and brigade-level units.

Currently no Special Operations Command CSIBs are available, according to the Institute of Heraldry’s Web site. Units such as the 75th Ranger Regiment are slated to be developed some time in fiscal 2010.

The CSIB ranks fifth after badges for presidential, vice presidential, secretary of defense and joint staff badges and would be placed to the left of those for soldiers who have them. All other badges can be worn in accordance with existing Army regulations.

The CSIB can now be worn on the current dress blue uniform until October 2015 when the ASU replaces the green Class As and Bs and the more rarely seen white service uniform. The ASU will continue to serve as dress blues for formal events. The policies that governed wear of the dress blues will continue as before.

Many of the wear policies governing the green uniform have been integrated with the blue uniform to preserve past traditions, uniform officials say.

Soldiers who wear green, tan or maroon berets, soldiers assigned to air assault-coded positions and military police on duty will be permitted to blouse their trousers with black leather combat boots.

Officers and enlisted soldiers may wear overseas service bars on the blue uniform coat. They had been allowed to wear the bars only on their green service uniform coats.

Enlisted service stripes, each indicating three years’ service, will still be worn on the left sleeve, but will now be the smaller size previously worn on the green uniform. Soldiers who own the current blue uniform will not be required to remove the large stripes until 2015.

The new uniform’s basic elements — coat, shirt, trousers for men, slacks and skirt for women — will cost between $170 to $178, Army officials maintain.

But at the clothing sales store on Fort Myer, Va., the ASU costs $319 — $192 for the coat, $97 for the pants and $30 for the shirt.

Enlisted soldiers should receive a stipend in their annual clothing replacement allowance to put toward the purchase of the ASU, Army officials say. The current clothing replacement allowance for male soldiers is $1,426.11 and $1,702.14 for female soldiers.

The blue uniform has always been required for commissioned officers; they get a one-time stipend to buy it.

The ASU is a 55-percent wool, 45-percent polyester blend, and it is heavier and more wrinkle resistant than previous uniforms. The coat will have a more tailored cut for a more fit appearance.

Black, tan, maroon and green berets will be permitted with all uniforms. Men and women, corporal and above, may wear a service cap, for which there will be a stipend. Commanders will determine which headgear should be worn for a particular event.

The machine-washable white shirt is more tailored and heavier than the green shirt and is wrinkle resistant. It has epaulets for rank insignia and permanent military creases.

Enlisted soldiers who opted to purchase the blues had to buy commercially available white shirts to go with them; women were authorized to wear short sleeves and men had to wear long sleeves. With the new Army Service Uniform, enlisted soldiers, male and female, will be authorized for the updated white shirt in the long- and short-sleeve versions and all will wear long sleeves with the Class A’s, and long or short sleeves with the Class B’s.

During the development of the uniform under former Chief of Staff Gen. Peter Schoomaker, a gray shirt had been chosen and modeled at several Army events. The white shirt that will now be part of the Army Service Uniform surfaced after Schoomaker’s successor, Gen. George Casey, took over in April 2007.

Junior enlisted soldiers in the rank of specialist and below will not wear the gold braid stripe on the outside seam, unless they are assigned to the Old Guard. Soldiers in those lower ranks who now own blue trousers with the stripe will not be required to remove it until 2015.

Soldiers graduating from basic training will begin getting the ASU as part of their clothing bag by late summer 2010.


Article: http://www.armytimes.com/news/2009/12/army_combat_badges_120609w/

[MCGYVER]

I'm fine with the price and they look VERY nice.

[MSMUROTC]

It's like twelve bucks. You buy it once. Enlisted soldiers get a clothing allowance, officers make enough money. You don't have to buy it at all. I dare any soldier that whines about this showing me that they never wasted money at a bar or strip club or something like that. Soldiers whine about uniforms in every issue of the Army Times, it's like we're a bunch of girl scouts.

[smarg]

Gawd, all the Army needs is more trinkets on their bauble-filled uniforms. It already looks like a friggin' Christmas tree. :D

[INGUARD]

Gawd, all the Army needs is more trinkets on their bauble-filled uniforms. It already looks like a friggin' Christmas tree. :D

You are exactly right SMARG. This is becoming ridiculous. I did the Army Survey requesting the SSI to be utilized on the dress blues.

The decision makers on this have no military uniform fashion sense. The Army uniforms are become worse and more laughable. No wonder people stay in the ACU (which is another travesty) because they wouldnt want to be caught looking like a clown.

Also, the airborne people are pissed on having to blouse their boots with the dress blues.

Jeez, I should of remained a Marine.

[Creaminess]

The new ASU looks ridiculous. And it looks even worse when the person is wearing jump boots and has the trousers tucked into them.

[RetSgtMajUSMC]

Just another dime store trinket to put on an already cluttered uniform. Why do you need something for everyplace you have gone and everything you have done. Isn't self-pride enough.

[Yggdrasil]

well that's because we actually go places and do things as opposed to the air force.

Actually, the Army is the only service to have all that crap on their uniforms. We don't have it, Coast Guard doesn't, and neither do Marines.

It's a shame. By the time a Soldier makes E-3 in the Army, he already looks like a Peruvian General.

[smarg]

Actually, the Army is the only service to have all that crap on their uniforms. We don't have it, Coast Guard doesn't, and neither do Marines.

It's a shame. By the time a Soldier makes E-3 in the Army, he already looks like a Peruvian General.

Word. Great analogy. Indeed, the dress greens have so many pins, patches, trinkets and baubles do make it look, so, uhm, interesting?

[MSMUROTC]

what are you talking about? air force gets a shiny badge just for having a job. the navy has like fifteen different uniforms. the marine corps wears shiny badges on their uniforms. every service has their dumb uniform stuff.

What EXACTLY are you objecting to that the army does? The CSIB? Didn't the USAF, until pretty recently, wear like 15 unit patches on their uniforms? If a private joins the army he'll get an army service ribbon, NDSM, and GWOTSM. All services get the last two. air force has an initial entry ribbon too. as far as I can figure, all the other ribbons that a private could get -- OSR, KDSM, AAM, ARCOM ... each of the other services has a duplicate. The reason that soliders have more ribbons is that soldiers do more shit than the other services, except for the marines, and they've got a hard on for not having unit patches and stuff. Whatever, you look at any USMC guy's vehicle and it was caught in the middle of a sticker factory explosion.

It seems like the other services give out extra ribbons instead of badges. Whatever.

[Yggdrasil]

what are you talking about? air force gets a shiny badge just for having a job. the navy has like fifteen different uniforms. the marine corps wears shiny badges on their uniforms. every service has their dumb uniform stuff.

What EXACTLY are you objecting to that the army does? The CSIB? Didn't the USAF, until pretty recently, wear like 15 unit patches on their uniforms? If a private joins the army he'll get an army service ribbon, NDSM, and GWOTSM. All services get the last two. air force has an initial entry ribbon too. as far as I can figure, all the other ribbons that a private could get -- OSR, KDSM, AAM, ARCOM ... each of the other services has a duplicate. The reason that soliders have more ribbons is that soldiers do more shit than the other services, except for the marines, and they've got a hard on for not having unit patches and stuff. Whatever, you look at any USMC guy's vehicle and it was caught in the middle of a sticker factory explosion.

It seems like the other services give out extra ribbons instead of badges. Whatever.

I'm not talking about ribbons and medals.

What I'm talking about are these:

Unit crests: Worn on the epaulets. No other service has them.

Unit patches: Worn on the sleeves. One for the regular unit, one for a unit with which a Soldier deployed. The closest thing to this worn by another service is the "rocker" on Navy E6 and below dress uniforms - merely a thin black strip that has the name of the command in white letters. Nothing ornate. No other service has this.

BOS regimental crests: Worn above the name tag on Army uniforms. No other service has this.

Qualification pins: In the Navy, you can earn as many as you want, but you can only wear two at a time. The Army? I can't count how many times I see people walking around in their Class A's wearing the marksmanship, Air Assault, CIB, Airborne, Pathfinder, HALO, and EOD all AT ONCE on their uniform.

Cords: Infantrymen get cords on their uniforms. "Oooh, look at me and my cord! I get to wear one, and you don't!" Do you see Marines in 03XX MOS's wearing cords? No? That's because they don't get one. You don't wear a cord on your uniform in any other service, unless you're in a ceremony of some sort, or you're working for some bigwig in the Pentagon.

Cowboy hats: "Oooh, look at me and my stetson! If you ain't cav, you ain't shit - but me, I AM shit! You don't get to wear one!" Nuff said on that. No other service has an equivalent.

Certain people get to tuck dress trousers into their jump boots. Garbage. Won't see this in any other service.

I'm just saying - the Army Dress Blue used to speak for itself before they started throwing all of this shit onto it like they did with the greens.

[MSMUROTC]

First off, let's make it clear that you, a sailor, decided to come onto the ARMY forum and start bagging on the Army. I reiterate it again, but I don't go rolling up on the Navy forum calling you people a bunch of lame fatties that ride around on boats.

The reason you heard them whine and complain is because people whine and complain when they're going through something that's actually difficult. As opposed to Navy and the Air Force basic. And they're whining about wanting to join those branches because of the TRUTH that those branches are EASY and they PAMPER PEOPLE. That's not exactly something that I'd be proud of. If you joined the military to have a cushy life, you probably couldn't hack it in civilian life and you needed someone to take care of you. If you joined the military to blow shit up, fly fighter jets, etc. then you're legit in my book. If you didn't, I respect your service, but don't try to pretend like what I do is stupid. Someone needs to do it and you're certainly not.

Unit pride -- bah. You love the 82nd until you get assigned to 1st Cav, then you love 1st Cav. It's meaningless, it's not like the Army doesn't fight and win wars of have unit cohesion because of that. Same thing with jawing about BCT, it's just something to pass the time, and if you think anyone cares where you went to basic whose rank doesn't start with "private" then you are sorely mistaken.

And the Marines are sticker whores because they're NOT the quiet professionals they want to pretend they are, they wish they had just as many bells, whistles, and trinkets as the Army, but they can't, so they plaster their vehicles with them.

Yea, I have no idea what it takes to earn one because I don't give a shit about them. If I wanted to sit on a boat, I would've done it. Don't care to. Obviously you know all about the Army and you're super concerned about our badges and our heraldry. Why do you give a shit? I don't give a shit about the Navy, I don't go on Navy forums and start blowing you up for being a bunch of fatties. It's like a little brother picking on a big brother, you feel inadequate, you wish you could wear some more bling ... but you can't because your service is lame and you haven't done half the cool shit your typical Infantryman has, so you're bitter. I get it.

"1. Be a Petty Officer 2. Have 24 months on a surface ship 3. Have a performance mark and Leadership marks of top 30% for CPO's and 3.4 for Petty Officers. 4. Complete the PQS for Damage Control, Damage Control Petty Officer, Repair Party Leader, and Work Center Supervisor. 5. Qualify in all watch stations for rating and pay grade. 6. Perform an oral board held by the Commanding Officer, Executive Officer or LCDR. 7. Be recommended by the chain of command, and approved by the Commanding Officer. The current Instruction for the ESWS Program is OPNAVINST 1414.1D, dated 15 June 1998, and can be found on the BUPERS Website at www.bupers.navy.mil"

DUDE ARE YOU SERIOUSLY TRYING TO COMPARE THAT TO GETTING SHOT AT IN COMBAT? OR JUMPING OUT OF AN AIRPLANE? SERIOUSLY. That sounds like "showing up to work and being somewhat above average" to me. As opposed to the Navy and the Air Force *we* get badges for going to schools and doing awesome shit, and we wear the shit out of them. I wouldn't let someone wear more than two badges if all they meant was I maintained a pulse and yes, SAT ON A BOAT FOR A COUPLE OF MONTHS.

So you guys go for boats at a month at a time, do you want me to congratulate you? You're the NAVY. That's WHAT YOU DO. That's like me whining about having to go to the field. That's normal shit that you knew about when you joined up, I'm not impressed by that.

Oh, and I'm better than anyone else who hasn't jumped out of an airplane. And ABN is probably the easiest school I've ever been to. You can't find someone who's airborne and doesn't think they're better than you. They might be too nice to say it, but they think it.

[MSMUROTC]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:George_W._Casey_2007.jpg
http://www.jcs.mil/content/images/bio/2009-02/022609120612_mullen.jpg

Casey has barely more stuff on than Mullen. Navy wears their unit awards with their awards. The only stuff he has extra is stands out is his wings, foreign wings, and ranger tab. Sorry that my CSA is an airborne ranger. Oh, and he has the army chief of staff badge on, sorry about that, but at least he doesn't have the "shazam" power bracelets on.

Oh and one final thing -- your big ass badges, are, well, big. Your badges are as big as nametapes, correct? I guarantee that a CIB with air assault, airborne, and pathfinder takes up barely more room than that, and connotes a lot more than sitting your ass on a boat for two years. CSIB is big? How about that chief of the boat nonsense. Please.

[MSMUROTC]

I'm not going to do the typical thing where this degrades into some asnine argument about everything in the military, and then spelling and grammar. Succinctly, Mullen outranks Casey but doesn't own shit, he's not in Casey's chain of command. Whether or not the "the Army has the EXACT SAME cake jobs" was never a point of discussion, what the hell are you talking about? Yes, the Army has its fair share of pogues, but the entire branch isn't a pogue branch.

[RetSgtMajUSMC]

This whole post has become comical. I served 30 years on the ground side of the Marine Corps. I spent 3 tours for a total of 7 years with naval units (subs and P3's). I lived on an Army base for 2 years. Gladly never served with or been stationed around the Air Force. The point is we all have distinct and separate missions. The reason why someone joins a particilar branch of the military is stricly their personal reason. Some join for family history, some join due to various other reasons. Its really doesn't matter what branch you join or serve proudly with, but the fact that you did join the greatest military in the world and serve this great Country with pride. There is one unit in the Marine Corps that wears one cord on their uniform. Members of the 5th and 6th Marine Regiments are authorized to wear the "French Fourragere" as awarded to them in WW I. Also, here is something you may not know. When a Marine makes an interservice to another branch of the military, they do not have to go through their boot camp; however, any member of the Army, Navy, or Air Force that moves to te Marine Corps MUST complete USMC boot camp. And you are right about stickers on vehicles. I have always wondered why we do that. Must have something to do with the pride we show in being Marines. The point is, we can joke about each other, but our mission is the same - to protect the interest and people of the Unied States.

SgtMaj USMC (Ret)
1970-2000
Vietnam, Desert Storm, Somalia

[Gold_Reaper]

First off, let's make it clear that you, a sailor, decided to come onto the ARMY forum and start bagging on the Army. I reiterate it again, but I don't go rolling up on the Navy forum calling you people a bunch of lame fatties that ride around on boats.

The reason you heard them whine and complain is because people whine and complain when they're going through something that's actually difficult. As opposed to Navy and the Air Force basic. And they're whining about wanting to join those branches because of the TRUTH that those branches are EASY and they PAMPER PEOPLE. That's not exactly something that I'd be proud of. If you joined the military to have a cushy life, you probably couldn't hack it in civilian life and you needed someone to take care of you. If you joined the military to blow shit up, fly fighter jets, etc. then you're legit in my book. If you didn't, I respect your service, but don't try to pretend like what I do is stupid. Someone needs to do it and you're certainly not.

Unit pride -- bah. You love the 82nd until you get assigned to 1st Cav, then you love 1st Cav. It's meaningless, it's not like the Army doesn't fight and win wars of have unit cohesion because of that. Same thing with jawing about BCT, it's just something to pass the time, and if you think anyone cares where you went to basic whose rank doesn't start with "private" then you are sorely mistaken.

And the Marines are sticker whores because they're NOT the quiet professionals they want to pretend they are, they wish they had just as many bells, whistles, and trinkets as the Army, but they can't, so they plaster their vehicles with them.

Yea, I have no idea what it takes to earn one because I don't give a shit about them. If I wanted to sit on a boat, I would've done it. Don't care to. Obviously you know all about the Army and you're super concerned about our badges and our heraldry. Why do you give a shit? I don't give a shit about the Navy, I don't go on Navy forums and start blowing you up for being a bunch of fatties. It's like a little brother picking on a big brother, you feel inadequate, you wish you could wear some more bling ... but you can't because your service is lame and you haven't done half the cool shit your typical Infantryman has, so you're bitter. I get it.

"1. Be a Petty Officer 2. Have 24 months on a surface ship 3. Have a performance mark and Leadership marks of top 30% for CPO's and 3.4 for Petty Officers. 4. Complete the PQS for Damage Control, Damage Control Petty Officer, Repair Party Leader, and Work Center Supervisor. 5. Qualify in all watch stations for rating and pay grade. 6. Perform an oral board held by the Commanding Officer, Executive Officer or LCDR. 7. Be recommended by the chain of command, and approved by the Commanding Officer. The current Instruction for the ESWS Program is OPNAVINST 1414.1D, dated 15 June 1998, and can be found on the BUPERS Website at www.bupers.navy.mil"

DUDE ARE YOU SERIOUSLY TRYING TO COMPARE THAT TO GETTING SHOT AT IN COMBAT? OR JUMPING OUT OF AN AIRPLANE? SERIOUSLY. That sounds like "showing up to work and being somewhat above average" to me. As opposed to the Navy and the Air Force *we* get badges for going to schools and doing awesome shit, and we wear the shit out of them. I wouldn't let someone wear more than two badges if all they meant was I maintained a pulse and yes, SAT ON A BOAT FOR A COUPLE OF MONTHS.

So you guys go for boats at a month at a time, do you want me to congratulate you? You're the NAVY. That's WHAT YOU DO. That's like me whining about having to go to the field. That's normal shit that you knew about when you joined up, I'm not impressed by that.

Oh, and I'm better than anyone else who hasn't jumped out of an airplane. And ABN is probably the easiest school I've ever been to. You can't find someone who's airborne and doesn't think they're better than you. They might be too nice to say it, but they think it.

I couldn't have said this any better myself. MSMUROTC FTW!

[Yggdrasil]

Here's what I'm saying - the Army Dress Blue went from this:

http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/memorials/oldguard.jpg

To THIS:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/US-PARATROOPER-BLUES.png

...all because you HAD to have of all your shit on them. You just HAD to show everyone that you're 82nd Airborne with the patch/pin, the bloused trousers, the beret - the Army Dress Blue once stood against the Marine Corps Dress Blue; now the Army has officially backed off and let the Marine Corps beat them out. You must be proud.

[Gold_Reaper]

Here's what I'm saying - the Army Dress Blue went from this:

http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/memorials/oldguard.jpg

To THIS:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/US-PARATROOPER-BLUES.png

...all because you HAD to have of all your shit on them. You just HAD to show everyone that you're 82nd Airborne with the patch/pin, the bloused trousers, the beret - the Army Dress Blue once stood against the Marine Corps Dress Blue; now the Army has officially backed off and let the Marine Corps beat them out. You must be proud.

Bad example. If you changed the ASU (the bottom pic) to reflect the good ol' bus driver hat and low quarter shoes, what's the difference? What I just just described is indeed authorized, grasshopper.

[Yggdrasil]

Bad example. If you changed the ASU (the bottom pic) to reflect the good ol' bus driver hat and low quarter shoes, what's the difference? What I just just described is indeed authorized, grasshopper.

But why even authorize all that crap anyway? Why does the Army want Soldiers to be seen looking like this? And under the new regs, aren't non-NCO's required to wear a beret with the uniform?

[justin0495]

But why even authorize all that crap anyway? Why does the Army want Soldiers to be seen looking like this? And under the new regs, aren't non-NCO's required to wear a beret with the uniform?

Those in the rank of Corporal and above must have the Service Cap (bus driver hat). Specialists and below must wear the beret. However, for formation and uniformity purposes, the beret is authorized for all ranks. So, it’s up to the commander to decide which headgear is worn (Point 14 in the ALARACT message).

Anyone who’s been in the Army for two minutes or more can see where this is going to go from a mile away, especially during the transition phase. don’t expect to see any Service Caps in formations for years. I’ll wear mine when I’m out and about. I always preferred the bus driver over any stupid beret or garrison cap. To me, it’s just more military.

The entire ASU reg is here:
http://www.army.mil/asu/alaract.html

But, back on topic. The CSIB is a retarded piece of flare that can be easily accomplished with existing and less expensive shoulder patches. The CSIB is one more item I have to anally eyeball to make sure it’s just right on the jacket and adds weight to an already uncomfortable piece of clothing. I say if we’re going to still have a combat designator (I give two craps either way) have it on the right shoulder where it’s always been.

[MSMUROTC]

Dude, that's a formation of the old guard. They're all like 24 and 6 feet tall. The belts look awesome. They all look awesome. Except no one outside of a wedding or the old guard ever wears the belt, so you're totally cherry picking that example. I guarantee you put those guys in new ASU, it would look awesome.

Let's all be honest here and admit that this particular guy doesn't look particularly good in this uniform (the ASU example). He just doesn't. To make matters worse, his uniform is especially cluttered because he's gone everywhere, done everything, most notably a combat decorate airborne ranger, i.e. twice the man you are.

[smarg]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:George_W._Casey_2007.jpg
http://www.jcs.mil/content/images/bio/2009-02/022609120612_mullen.jpg

Casey has barely more stuff on than Mullen. Navy wears their unit awards with their awards. The only stuff he has extra is stands out is his wings, foreign wings, and ranger tab. Sorry that my CSA is an airborne ranger. Oh, and he has the army chief of staff badge on, sorry about that, but at least he doesn't have the "shazam" power bracelets on.

Oh and one final thing -- your big ass badges, are, well, big. Your badges are as big as nametapes, correct? I guarantee that a CIB with air assault, airborne, and pathfinder takes up barely more room than that, and connotes a lot more than sitting your ass on a boat for two years. CSIB is big? How about that chief of the boat nonsense. Please.

Listen, Mr. Abu Ghraib, your uniforms are LOADED with trinkets and baubles and you all look like friggin Christmas trees. Get over it, and go on thinking that you're hot snot in a crystal glass, 'cause you ain't nuthin' but cold boogers in a Dixie cup. :tongue:

[Yggdrasil]

Let's all be honest here and admit that this particular guy doesn't look particularly good in this uniform (the ASU example). He just doesn't. To make matters worse, his uniform is especially cluttered because he's gone everywhere, done everything, most notably a combat decorate airborne ranger, i.e. twice the man you are.

Two things:

1. I thought we've already established that it doesn't take much to become "decorated" in the Army. Like I said earlier, war or no war, by the time you make PFC in the Army, you already look like a Peruvian General.

2. Again, I'm not the Army - you can take that inferiority complex somewhere else. I could honestly give two shits where you or the guy in the pic has been, and I could give two shits what pins, cords, ribbons, and hats that you or the guy in the pic want to show off as a testament to your "manhood". I know you guys stack of alot of bullshit on your uniforms, but damn - you boys have some sort of dick-measuring contests with that as well? Again, tell someone in the Army that the guy in the pic is twice the man that they are - because, again, no one outside of the Army cares.

[MSMUROTC]

"because, again, no one outside of the Army cares."

You keep saying stuff like this. I am so confused. No one asked YOU to come on the ARMY FORUM and start ragging on the ARMY. I don't get it, do people go on the Navy forum and call you all a bunch of fags all the time? Or make fun of your 15 uniforms? Or am I missing something here?

I don't give a shit. I put the uniform on with the stuff that I have on it and I go about my day. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about it. Clearly you do.

But I'll be god damned if some paper pushing admin e-6 sailor starts ragging on my branch of service. I was curious, so I just googled your little signature block -- really? for someone who's concerned with people being into dick measuring, why'd you throw your rank and that nonsense into your signature block? and really, a "personnel specialist" ... is that really something to brag about? any possible respect that I could've ever had for you flew out the window when I googled what PS1 meant. You're just some paper pushing S-1 office rat. Go get some more toner for the copier or whatever it is you do.

And no, nothing has been established about PFC's looking like Peruvian generals. Just because YOU say it again and again and again doesn't make it "established". Name a ribbon that an Army PFC would have that doesn't have an equivalent in at least one other service. The reason the Army PFC looks like a general is he's probably been deployed to combat at least once versus some Navy or Air Force guy who sat on a base or a boat.

But it's not like they're medals that are unique to the ARMY. They're either DOD medals or they're medals that other branches have as well. If you're talking about badges again, well, we can start at the beginning all over again -- jumping out of an airplane or getting shot at in combat is worth getting a badge for. Sitting on a boat for two years is not.

[Yggdrasil]

"because, again, no one outside of the Army cares."

You keep saying stuff like this. I am so confused. No one asked YOU to come on the ARMY FORUM and start ragging on the ARMY. I don't get it, do people go on the Navy forum and call you all a bunch of fags all the time? Or make fun of your 15 uniforms? Or am I missing something here?

No, I mean no one outside of the Army gives two shits about the bullshit that you boys keep bragging about. You want to rub your jump wings in face - and I'm telling you, only a fellow Soldier is going to give two shits.

But, if you want to come to the Navy forum and call us "fags," then feel free. I'm sure any Sailor there will GLADLY tell you that we bang more women than anyone in any other branch. While we're hitting foreign ports in the Mediterranean and the western Pacific and banging the hot women, you boys are out there banging each other's wives after you meet them in the Jody Bars of Killeen and Fayeteville.


I don't give a shit. I put the uniform on with the stuff that I have on it and I go about my day. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about it. Clearly you do.

You're right, I do. And believe it or not, I do care how the military as a whole looks. That's probably why I'm not too fond of the transition from Dress Blues to ASU's.


But I'll be god damned if some paper pushing admin e-6 sailor starts ragging on my branch of service. I was curious, so I just googled your little signature block -- really? for someone who's concerned with people being into dick measuring, why'd you throw your rank and that nonsense into your signature block? and really, a "personnel specialist" ... is that really something to brag about? any possible respect that I could've ever had for you flew out the window when I googled what PS1 meant. You're just some paper pushing S-1 office rat. Go get some more toner for the copier or whatever it is you do.

Again: How many times do I have to tell you? You can rag on my job all you want, you can compare me to your infantry MOS if you want, and brag about how you jump out of planes while I push paper - I don't give a fuck! I mean, shit - I knew that this would happen before I became a Personnel Specialist... so if I had the inferiority complex that you had, I wouldn't have chosen to be a Personnel Specialist.

I'll tell you this much, and this is all I'm going to say on the matter: I've got my bachelor's degree in human resources management, along with my military experience in the field. I'm half-way through my MBA, and I'll be taking the SPHR exam when I come home from my next cruise. After you retire, you'll be putting 11 whatever on your resume and getting laughed at.

So keep on bragging about your infantry MOS. You go out there, you go ahead and get shot at; do your thing. And, quite frankly - and I've stated this before - I could give two shits about who you have respect for and who you don't. Regardless, I'm still going to get paid the same; my mortgage and other bills will be paid.

As far as I'm concerned, you can shove your red beret, jump wings, and blue cord up your ass.


And no, nothing has been established about PFC's looking like Peruvian generals. Just because YOU say it again and again and again doesn't make it "established". Name a ribbon that an Army PFC would have that doesn't have an equivalent in at least one other service. The reason the Army PFC looks like a general is he's probably been deployed to combat at least once versus some Navy or Air Force guy who sat on a base or a boat.

But it's not like they're medals that are unique to the ARMY. They're either DOD medals or they're medals that other branches have as well. If you're talking about badges again, well, we can start at the beginning all over again -- jumping out of an airplane or getting shot at in combat is worth getting a badge for. Sitting on a boat for two years is not.

Then explain why Marines don't have as much as you do? I'll tell you why - the Navy and Marine Corps, for the most part, have the same award system. If you look at what the average Staff Sergeant of Marines has on his uniform, you'll find the same on mine. The only difference being a warfare insignia, as there aren't as many opportunities to get pins in the USMC.

I know this: there's no equivalent to the Army Service Ribbon in the Navy. There's also no equivalent to that green and yellow ribbon you boys get for going to leadership school. Everything WE have, you have an equivalent. That's not true the other way around.

[MSMUROTC]

dude, don't even bother getting into some personal pissing contest with you because you have no clue who I am. i have my BA in a real discipline from one of the top 15 national universities in the nation and I'm a thesis away from my MA in a real discipline, ALSO from one of those universities. BA in human resources? give me a break. I wouldn't even go to a school that offered a bullshit degree like that.

anyway, I'm done with this. arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics. you're a navy admin E-6 who's bragging about your degrees from Phoenix university. and again, the Army is a bunch of losers because we have to let everyone know who we are on our uniforms, but you're going to try to trumpet your lame accomplishments in some vain attempt to win points in some asinine internet argument. riiiiiiiiiiiight. merry christmas, you win at life.

[Yggdrasil]

dude, don't even bother getting into some personal pissing contest with you because you have no clue who I am. i have my BA in a real discipline from one of the top 15 national universities in the nation and I'm a thesis away from my MA in a real discipline, ALSO from one of those universities. BA in human resources? give me a break. I wouldn't even go to a school that offered a bullshit degree like that.

anyway, I'm done with this. arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics. you're a navy admin E-6 who's bragging about your degrees from Phoenix university. and again, the Army is a bunch of losers because we have to let everyone know who we are on our uniforms, but you're going to try to trumpet your lame accomplishments in some vain attempt to win points in some asinine internet argument. riiiiiiiiiiiight. merry christmas, you win at life.

And you don't know who I am, son. My degree is a BS, and I'm halfway through my MBA - and it's not from University of Phoenix or any other lame for-profit school. In fact, if you've been observant at all, I'm all over this board warning people to stay away from for-profit schools, or any other online school that lacks a brick-and-mortar legacy.

You wouldn't go to a school that offers a degree in HR? I guess that means you wouldn't go to schools like Auburn, Florida State, Miami, Temple, or Ohio State. But hey, to each their own. And if your screen name is an indication that you went to Mount Saint Mary's... I have no clue who the hell is telling you that it's in the Top 15, as I can recall, it's not even ranked.

And by the way, son - what's your degree in? Infantry?

Look, point is this: You want to try to turn this into a dick measuring contest by comparing your job to mine. And like I said, you might impress your fellow Soldiers who are not combat arms, they might "look up" to you, or think you're cool - but that's the Army. Blousing your Class A's over your boots and all that other bullshit you do just looks plain stupid to everyone else. But hey, you do what you do.

[MSMUROTC]

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-universities-rankings

people do go to more than one school...

for you, it's as easy as typing in a new URL!

[Gold_Reaper]

No, I mean no one outside of the Army gives two shits about the bullshit that you boys keep bragging about. You want to rub your jump wings in face - and I'm telling you, only a fellow Soldier is going to give two shits.

But, if you want to come to the Navy forum and call us "fags," then feel free. I'm sure any Sailor there will GLADLY tell you that we bang more women....

Bang more women? Whatever it takes to win an internet pissing match I see...

[vette88]

I might be wrong on this, so if I am, correct me.

The Marine's day to day uniform most of the time DOESN'T have any tabs or anything like that on it. All it has is the Marine symbol on it.

Correct?

If I am, nothing more needs to be said. Kind of speaks for itself.

[MADAMESINCERE]

I'm not talking about ribbons and medals.

What I'm talking about are these:

Unit crests: Worn on the epaulets. No other service has them.

Unit patches: Worn on the sleeves. One for the regular unit, one for a unit with which a Soldier deployed. The closest thing to this worn by another service is the "rocker" on Navy E6 and below dress uniforms - merely a thin black strip that has the name of the command in white letters. Nothing ornate. No other service has this.

BOS regimental crests: Worn above the name tag on Army uniforms. No other service has this.

Qualification pins: In the Navy, you can earn as many as you want, but you can only wear two at a time. The Army? I can't count how many times I see people walking around in their Class A's wearing the marksmanship, Air Assault, CIB, Airborne, Pathfinder, HALO, and EOD all AT ONCE on their uniform.

Cords: Infantrymen get cords on their uniforms. "Oooh, look at me and my cord! I get to wear one, and you don't!" Do you see Marines in 03XX MOS's wearing cords? No? That's because they don't get one. You don't wear a cord on your uniform in any other service, unless you're in a ceremony of some sort, or you're working for some bigwig in the Pentagon.

Cowboy hats: "Oooh, look at me and my stetson! If you ain't cav, you ain't shit - but me, I AM shit! You don't get to wear one!" Nuff said on that. No other service has an equivalent.

Certain people get to tuck dress trousers into their jump boots. Garbage. Won't see this in any other service.

I'm just saying - the Army Dress Blue used to speak for itself before they started throwing all of this shit onto it like they did with the greens.

I was "kind of" with you until you got to the Stetson. That is worn because of the CAV's proud TRADITION. Being in the Navy you should know something about that!

[Yggdrasil]

I was "kind of" with you until you got to the Stetson. That is worn because of the CAV's proud TRADITION. Being in the Navy you should know something about that!

But it's not so much about that. What it's more about is people authorized to wear it waiving it in their fellow Soldiers' faces.

I'll give you an example. I rag on the Infantry Corps for their blue cord; but our Boatswain's Mates (the rating that "represents" the Navy, the same way that 11X "respresents" the Army) also get a lanyard with the Boatswain's Pipe on the end.

The main difference? It's not required to be worn. Not only that, but BM's are not authorized to wear it off base; which is why I wouldn't call it an "equivalent" to the blue infantry cord.