No way on bringing back suit coats and ties!!

[mikepell]

Did everyone catch the recent opinion piece in the Army Times in early December about making the daily wear of the 'service dress' mandatory? There was even a letter to the editor printed in support of putting us back in suit coats and ties a week later. Both items were written by retirees that desire the ACU's to be put away and back to Class A's, B's and the new ASU's for everyday attire. Here is my $100 million dollar reply:

. The current uniform attire of our military is not only correct but it also benefits the service members and the public. Recent discussions to retreat back to the old suit coats and ancient ties of yesterday will cost the service members monetarily and decrease morale along with their performance. The public strongly supports our military personnel regardless of what they are wearing unlike retired editorialist have commented in the Army Times the past month.
. The cost to the service members to dust off the old suit coats and ties will be enormous. Consider if just 200,000 personnel had to get their shirts and pants cleaned and pressed each week at a cost of $10 (unless you want the spouse to do it- as if they don’t have enough already)- we are looking at about $100,000,000 a year. Let me make that clear, one hundred million dollars out of the pockets of our military families to make some newsman or retiree happy so we look like the soldiers of World War II.
. The current work uniforms are not only comfortable, except for the beret, they are in line with the modern workplace. This makes working for the military more attractive to younger personnel. Please note that there are no policies prohibiting a service member from wearing their Class A uniforms to work. However, why would anyone want to subject themselves to that tight fitting collar with the 1950’s style tie and itchy fabric? One can only guess as to the decrease in efficiency of our personnel along with their morale of having to dress like their grandfathers of 50 years ago.
. The public supports our service members no matter what they are wearing. Agreed that when meeting the president or at a funeral proper attire is needed but for the 99.9% of the time we are not doing this, the current uniform policy is great for everyone.

[RONALD45]

What this guy was complaining about was the prevalence of personnel wearing the ACU off post, he wants us to dress in our dress uniforms when "out and about" town. What this "old timer" fails to realize is the Army is no more the "romantic Army of his long forgotten youth" but a more modern Army. Back when "Mike" was in most Soldiers were unmarried, no children, MALE, and lived on post. Everything you needed the Army either gave you or you could find on the instillation. Other than a "weekend pass" granted by your Commander there really was no need to travel off the instillation at all.

Fast forward 40 years Mike to today, most Soldiers are married, have children, are both male and female and the Army doesn't give you nothing but sh*t. Rip a uniform in the field you PAY FOR IT, lose an item YOU PAY FOR IT. Go TDY you use a government credit card (BASICALLY YOU PAY FOR IT, you might be reimbursed later by the Army. You can't find crap on Post today at the PX or Comissary when Wal Mart or CostCo is down the road. Most of us now live OFF POST in apartments (considering barracks rooms are small, most haven't been refurbished despite government claims and they quit building barracks to concentrate on building housing for all the single females that get knocked up to get out of the barracks) who are single etc. This means that we travel off post extensively, two and three times a day, we have to buy gas (cheaper off post) pay bills (since the Army doesn't do that for us anymore since we have our own apartments and homes) and get groceries (dining halls are a thing of the past, have been since they started using civilians that don't eat the food, therefore don't give a crap as to how it tastes). Let's not even mention medical care you see Mike since military hospitals are so tied up with taking care of Retirees and the babies of those females trying to get out of the barracks, most Active Soldiers even have to travel off post to be seen when they are sick (that is if they want something other than motrin or a 18 weeks of medical training E-2 handling their medical problems) cause we can't get doctors and nurses anymore.

So you see Mike the examples above are why we are off post more than on in 'work uniform" since the military has "civilianized" just about all functions on Post, have closed most of the PX's, Commissaries, NCO clubs, Enlisted clubs, Officer Clubs etc most of the things we need, want, and have to do are off the instillations. Hell when the Army recruits Muslim extremists psychologists, and everyone KNOWS IT but nobody does ANYTHING ABOUT IT and they come in and shoot the place up a lot of us even feel MORE SAFE living and staying off Post. Therefore changing into a "suit and tie" everyday to LEAVE WORK is as assinine an idea today as is the Army of 40 years ago.

[SailorDave]

Not to mention that in those days, you were rarely issued a civilian clothes pass. So, any time you left the post, it had to be in a "dress" style uniform. Those were the days when everyone, military and civilian alike, wore ties everywhere. It was just a manner of dress that was the social norm. These days, dress is much more casual, and less people feel the need to dress in a coat and tie in a normal day.

[mikepell]

Hi, the author, Robert Dorr, specifically wants ALL service members to wear the dress uniform everywhere including the office :

"U.S. military service chiefs should restore wearing of service dress in the workplace." is a quote from the original column the Army Times published.

This is a serious matter since there are actual discussions about this very thing- else why would the Army Times publish that column and then the next week, publish a letter to the editor supporting that view.

Also, I don't support such a reactionary return to the suitcoat and tie- I believe my post kind of alluded to that point. Go read the Robert Dorr column- he is the guy promoting this thing, not me.

Check out the original column by Robert Dorr at http://www.armytimes.com/community/opinion/army_opinion_restore_120709/

Thanks, Mike

[pawn65]

Wow another retiree with another crackhead idea. Why would the Army do that when every other branch uses the Cammies as opposed anything else for us the Navy the only time we use or dress blues or whites is for change of commands, retirements (depending on what base your on) pulling into a port and pulling back after deployment (even then it depends on certain things) and for special duty assignments. lol on top of that hes retired Air Force.

[RUSTMIKE]

I would agree that there is a time and place to wear service dress uniforms. Day to day duties is not necessarily one of them. I value the opinions and thoughts of retired service members, but what needs to be kept in mind is that they are just opinions and thoughts. Those individuals are not in the service any longer and will not have to wear the uniforms they are suggesting on a day to day basis.

[justin0495]

I agree 100% that the ASU (or any Dress Uniform) is not and should not be a day to day uniform. BUT, it *IS* extremely embarrassing and unprofessional when recruiters and other personnel from the branches are representing and the Army is the only one in the combat uniform. I agree with the author in this respect, in that any type of formal ceremony, especially handling of remains, needs to be done in a dress uniform.

I just came off recruiting duty and I was a minority voice screaming that Class As and Bs should be worn like they used to be. I can’t tell you how many briefings I went to where the research was presented and that the general public views the Army as the least “elite’ of the four services. I honestly believe that the common sight of soldiers in their ACUs versus the other branches in their Dress Uniforms contributed to this thinking.

Please, fellow soldiers, take pride in the new uniform, warts and all, because it’s OUR uniform. On a side note, I just received my ASU from Marlow White and after the alterations, it isn’t bad!

[CWO5SMITH]

How about we take up a collection so the Army Chief of Staff can afford a haircut? I realize these are tough economic times and haircuts are expensive, but he looked ridiculous in recent pictures with hair hanging over his ears and on his neck. What a great example for all the young Soldiers to follow.

[justin0495]

mikepell,

It looks like you’re going to get your wish. In today’s (Jan 17) Sunday Parade, someone actually wrote in on the very same question. The story and very tired lame response follows. My response is, the Army is not the only branch “at war.” Yet, we are the only branch that is too lazy and lacks the pride to wear a dress uniform. I blame USAREC, GEN Casey, and SMA Preston.

My only other question is, why are we going through such a huge change with the ASU (and of course tax $) if we aren't supposed to wear the damn thing?

http://www.parade.com/celebrity/personality-parade/2010/01/military.html

Q Why do military personnel wear fatigues all the time now? What happened to dress uniforms?—Bruce Hotchkiss, Pacifica, Calif.

We still wear dress uniforms on occasion, but as an army at war, wearing our ACU—Army Combat Uniform—is a way of connecting to the soldiers in the field,” Army spokesman Lt. Col. Christopher Garver tells us. “At one point there was a policy that said you had to wear a dress uniform on civilian aircraft—that changed shortly after 9/11.” Along with so much else.

[JD2780]

I work at a joint school, and we have AF Army and Marines there. No Navy yet, but a Navy retiree. The AF and the one Marine adhere to the AF policy of wearing your dress uniform on monday. Not the whole Service Dress, just the shirt and slacks. The Army doesnt. Now at our school we dont really have a leg to stand on saying we cant. At my careerfields operational units I see it as a complete waste because on Mondays we do vehicle checks and radio checks. The uniform puts a cramp on things if the CC doesnt have the fortitude to make a the right decision.

[justin0495]

JD,

The point is you have a reason to not wear the Class Bs on Mondays. Operationally, you have a job do to that makes wearing the ACU more appropriate on those days.

But, especially off base when recruiting and during events like sports halftime shows and FOR SURE when on ceremonial burial duty, soldiers need to get their asses back in Class As or the Class A ASU.

It’s become a disgrace that not only are civilians far from military installations noticing the shift in culture, but soldiers are embracing it too. It takes me all of 15 minutes to put all the crap on the jacket and if I have to wear it for one day, well I kinda like it. I have pride in it. But seeing recruiters at a formal job fair wearing ACUs is not projecting an image of pride and professionalism. It projects “I’m wearing this because it’s easier.”

[HalveBlue]

I echo the sentiments regarding the wear of the ASU for ceremonial or official functions (such as recruiting fairs).

However, even for garrison Soldiers wear of the ASU is impractical. Contrary to popular belief even the desk jockeys have to move, clean, or repair crap.

If I had to wear the ASU on daily basis the uniform would be trashed within a week.

[Bruce]

Did anyone take notice that Secretary Gates, according to a NY Times story on 1/18/10 (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/19/us/politics/19pentagon.html?scp=1&sq=gates%20uniform&st=cse), has ordered his staff to all wear Class A uniforms? Here's my bet: Little by little, there will be a domino effect in the Pentagon -- Class A's will be soon required in the SECArmy staff, then in the Chief of Staff's office, and then on down. No one is going to want to be in a meeting with SECDEF staff wearing BDUs when SECDEF staff are wearing Class A's.

[justin0495]

The article predicted as much too. I’m surprised it took this long for the order. I’ve been predicting ever since the official ASU announcement we’d be seeing more soldiers back in As and Bs. It’s only a matter of time (probably sooner rather than later with the Gates order) that we’ll be seeing recruiters (rightfully so) back in Class Bs, the ASU Bs.

The next big sporting events are the Super Bowl and the Daytona 500 in Feb. If we see soldiers in ASU As during those events, it’ll all but be official.

[Bruce]

SPECFOR guys actually benefit from the rule. Its pretty impressive sitting across from a guy wearing a silver star (or better), and a lot SPECFor guys have them. For better or not, you can't confuse them with a desk warmer.

[CommunityEditor]

Since the beginning of Operation Enduring Freedom in October 2001, soldiers have been wearing combat uniforms virtually non-stop. Class A uniforms have been closeted in the interest of showing support for the soldiers in the war zone. Defense Secretary Robert Gates has quietly ordered his staff to put away the Army Combat Uniforms and start wearing their Class As to work, as of Jan. 1.

Do you think it’s time for the Army to return to the old tradition of wearing a dress uniform to the office, saving the ACUs for the field and the war zone?

[justin0495]

I thought we were already having this discussion in the "No way on bringing back suit coats and ties!!" thread. How about migrating all responses from that thread to this one.

Yeesh, talk about Government duplication :rolleyes:

[2430 MHz]

Since the beginning of Operation Enduring Freedom in October 2001, soldiers have been wearing combat uniforms virtually non-stop. Class A uniforms have been closeted in the interest of showing support for the soldiers in the war zone. Defense Secretary Robert Gates has quietly ordered his staff to put away the Army Combat Uniforms and start wearing their Class As to work, as of Jan. 1.

Do you think it’s time for the Army to return to the old tradition of wearing a dress uniform to the office, saving the ACUs for the field and the war zone?

Business Setting = Dress Uniforms

ALL Services

[JD2780]

2430 I agree!!! Although all the services did just waste a ton of money making new utilities. I still agree

[justin0495]

For public ceremonies, formal gatherings, and for ALL recruiting activities, Class As/ASUs! TONIGHT I just watched a local NHL game and there was a soldier in the middle of the rink saluting for the National Anthem. That in itself is a good thing. But, the soldier was in ACUs! That chaps my ass to no end!

Civilians are recognizing and questioning this trend now, writing letters in national magazines questioning it (see last week’s Parade Magazine). Army Recruiting actually has studies that show civilians that think the Army is the least “elite” of the four branches. Could this be because the other three wouldn’t dare be at a recruiting table or presenting the colors at a nationally televised sporting event and not wear their dress uniforms?

Makes me sick…

[INGUARD]

Yes, lets see how those officers at the Pentagon will look with those Christmas tree new dress blues. The Army doesnt like their new dress uniform so that is why they go to work in their ACUs.

[mikepell]

Note that the Army Times is looking for letters to the editor on this subject as of 22 Jan. Note that the cost factor needs to be pushed on this item in order to hit it hard. How much will it cost the soldier and their family to pay for extra uniforms, accessories and cleaning? I estimate 200,000 soldiers paying 10 dollars a week for 50 weeks = $100 million dollars... but, lets say I am 75% wrong... that is still $25,000,000!

MP

[INGUARD]

Note that the Army Times is looking for letters to the editor on this subject as of 22 Jan. Note that the cost factor needs to be pushed on this item in order to hit it hard. How much will it cost the soldier and their family to pay for extra uniforms, accessories and cleaning? I estimate 200,000 soldiers paying 10 dollars a week for 50 weeks = $100 million dollars... but, lets say I am 75% wrong... that is still $25,000,000!

MP

Mike, so do you expect that will eliminate the need for the service dress uniform? We only wear it for AIT graduations, military balls and formals?

We wore dress uniforms during World War II and other branches (such as the Marines) wear the dress uniforms frequently in garrison environments. The ACU doesnt look sharp and the military professes sharpness.

Well the economy needs a boost so why not start with the cleaning services industry? :D

If your assignment deems you to be in dress uniform then so be it. I am not complaining.

[justin0495]

Yes, lets see how those officers at the Pentagon will look with those Christmas tree new dress blues. The Army doesnt like their new dress uniform so that is why they go to work in their ACUs.

Inguard, that makes no sense. The Army went all BDU/ACU shortly after 9/11-long before the ASU announcement. As LTC Garver pathetically justified in last week’s Parade Magazine, “We still wear dress uniforms on occasion, but as an army at war, wearing our ACU—Army Combat Uniform—is a way of connecting to the soldiers in the field.”

The American public is smart enough to realize the Army has different uniforms for different uses. America can be at war and its service people can still look professional and dignified on the home front. The other three branches manage to. The soldiers of WWII forward accomplished this and the American public made many more sacrifices during that time then they do now.

[2430 MHz]

On s side note: The American Public has ZERO right to judge what the US Military is wearing or not wearing

They have the freedom of speech to say whatever they want, but it holds no merit to me

Just like I hate backseat drivers and armchair quarterbacks.....they need to STFU

The Military is sending people to die in a combat zone while theyre drinking lattes at Starbucks....they can all go get fuc*ed :)

[Gold_Reaper]

I think we should wear the ASU at least a few times a week. Not only does it look good when properly worn, it'll reveal the fat bodies.

If this does go through, I may get out an open up a dry cleaning business. I'll call it...

Military Ready All Pressing's or MRAPs :D

[mikepell]

If there is such a great need to bring back the dress uniform for everyday wear, then the soldiers should be compensated for the extra costs. My math shows $100 million out of soldier family budgets- if we are to support the family, start at the wallet/pocketbook. Nothing more demoralizing than taking hard earned cash out of the pockets of our soldiers!

Would hope someone can check my math on all of this. estimate 200,000 soldiers affected (some don't have the office jobs so am not counting on all 500,000 having to wear it), $1.75 a day for a shirt and $3 for pants so just to make it easy, $10 per week, 50 weeks a year. Maybe I should make that 40 weeks a year? Anyway you add it up, we are looking at tens of millions of dollars.

[AM21]

I strongly disagree with the notion of making the day to day uniform dress. Call me lazy, or a stupid grunt, but I hate having to perfect the measurements and details on my dress greens and wear them 2 or 3 times a year as is(it is also to me, uncomfortable and highly impractical for day to day uses). We are not a law firm, not a business organization, and we dont imho need to impress anyone with dress clothes to prove we do our jobs.

[kenny10]

There is another forum about this in the Marines area. We are also talking about it. I think it is absolutely STUPID

[DAVEBUCK187COM]

Yes, lets see how those officers at the Pentagon will look with those Christmas tree new dress blues. The Army doesnt like their new dress uniform so that is why they go to work in their ACUs.

What are you talking about? Christmas trees are green. Not blue! I remember years ago when Soldiers were complaining about how much crap was on the greens and how we looked like Christmas trees. I have not heard that complaint with the blues until now. As for the Army not liking the blues. They were the hands down choice to replace the greens during US Army surveys. Now I admit the blue ASU uniform needs some tweaking but over all the damn thing looks sharp!!!
As for Soldiers not wanting to wear their service uniforms. That trend started back in the 1980's when the Army introduced the mint green puke shirts. Dear God that shirt gave the Marine Corps a recruiting advantage over the Army image machine over night. Heck my buddy joined the Marines so he wouldn't have to wear the green polyester and mint green shirt nightmare.

[RONALD45]

What are you talking about? Christmas trees are green. Not blue! I remember years ago when Soldiers were complaining about how much crap was on the greens and how we looked like Christmas trees. I have not heard that complaint with the blues until now. As for the Army not liking the blues. They were the hands down choice to replace the greens during US Army surveys.
.

Actually the overall hands down winner in the survey was the "pinks and tans" from WWII however as usual this was shot down by self serving Army Brass who wanted the montrosity known as the ASU. Heaven forbid we actually give the Soldiers something they would enjoy wearing.

[Bruce]

I strongly disagree with the notion of making the day to day uniform dress. Call me lazy, or a stupid grunt, but I hate having to perfect the measurements and details on my dress greens and wear them 2 or 3 times a year as is(it is also to me, uncomfortable and highly impractical for day to day uses). We are not a law firm, not a business organization, and we dont imho need to impress anyone with dress clothes to prove we do our jobs.

The idea of wearing batte fatigues for office wear came up after the 9/11 attack on the Pentagon. In many respects, the policy made sense -- we're at war and our bases are legitimate terrorist targets; our forces at home need to be dressed for battle at all times. Also, battle uniforms are made to be more flame retardent than some dressier uniforms with polyester fabrics that can melt onto one's skin.

That being said, if we expect our troops at home to be ready for war, then we should equip them for battle, too, and have everyone issued a weapon. Notwithstanding the tragedy at Ft. Hood, the powers that be seem to prefer that soldiers at home rely on rentacops for security, rather than preparing our troops to protect themselves.

But let me give one or two more arguments for Class A's for those with desk jobs, especially in the Washington Military District -- All during WWII, Korea, and Vietnam, the uniform in Washington was always Class A's. If you're uncomfortable in your uniform, take off the blouse when you get into the office and regulations permit. Too many ribbons and badges? If your CO doesn't require you to wear every one, then don't. Some great flag officers, highly decorated ones at that, always cut their ribbons down to a row or two, or sometimes none at all. Who cares that you got a ribbon for training?

One more point: Your uniform is what you wear to represent your pride in your service and your country. The new army uniforms (and the proposed AF and Navy uniforms) are designed so that they look especially good on fit and trip service men and women, and not so great on those who miss PT. So the uniform, then, is not only a reflection on your service and your country, it is also a reflection on you. Be proud to wear your uniform, no matter whether its green, blue, or digitally printed.

[BlackShoe]

The argument about all being "legitimate targets" is probably the most valid one I've seen. I'm as guilty of it as anyone, but the simple fact is that ACUs, BDUs, DCUs, CUUs, NWUs, or whatever you call them are either a working or tactical uniform. Standard clothing for conducting business in the real world is a suit and tie, which means Class "A" (Army), "B" (Marines) or "Service Dress," (Navy and AF) depending on the service. Suggesting that it's a more relaxed world now reflects a glorious lack of awareness of what professionalism means outside the gates.
I'm not suggesting that good old-fashioned WORK should be carried out in A's or B's, but I think we all need to cowboy up a little and try to look professional when conducting office/garrison work, rather than allowing ourselves to succumb to the laziness that is camouflage in the office. It reflects in us looking like bags of potatoes as we transit through the world on our way to and from the base (post). Don't even get me started on what happens when you give someone a flight suit. I need to go polish my shoes and iron some stuff. My service uniforms are calling.

[mikepell]

Just FYI for those who have not been in the dreaded private sector (DPS) lately... suit coats and ties went away back in 1998 !

The only people wearing suit coat and ties for everyday office work are politicians, preachers and lawyers: something I don't want to be associated with in the military.

[RONALD45]

Just FYI for those who have not been in the dreaded private sector (DPS) lately... suit coats and ties went away back in 1998 !

The only people wearing suit coat and ties for everyday office work are politicians, preachers and lawyers: something I don't want to be associated with in the military.

Besides define "Garrison work" on a given day I may spend 3-4 hours in the motor pool, one hour at PT, 2-3 hours in the "office" doing "office work" 1-2 hours checking on Soldiers and then another 1-2 in the motor pool. Here's a hint CHANGING CLOTHES EVERYTIME WOULD BE A HUGE COLOSAL WASTE OF MY TIME besides it would also be very impractical. Maybe if this was the 1970's were we actually had Office workers and Soldiers then maybe so, but remember Clinton fired a lot of those positions during the drawdown.

[pawn65]

I work at a joint school, and we have AF Army and Marines there. No Navy yet, but a Navy retiree. The AF and the one Marine adhere to the AF policy of wearing your dress uniform on monday. Not the whole Service Dress, just the shirt and slacks. The Army doesnt. Now at our school we dont really have a leg to stand on saying we cant. At my careerfields operational units I see it as a complete waste because on Mondays we do vehicle checks and radio checks. The uniform puts a cramp on things if the CC doesnt have the fortitude to make a the right decision. It doesnt matter what he wants to wear if Service Dress is the uniform of the day monday at that command then thats what he should be wearing on mondays.

[RONALD45]

Hey let's bring back those tri fold hats and musket drills on Monday as well, they looked so awesome during the Revolution, and then we can have Cavalry Tuesdays were we all practice "horse drill and ceremony" to make the "public" happy as well after all who doesn't enjoy a good Western?? Then we can have Civil War Wednesday's, divide the troops into those from the North and those from the South and we can have a few "friendly" competitive games. Then we can have "Hoky Poky" Thursdays were we sit and play this all day a few left foot in left foot out should help the troops with their marching.

Then on Fridays we can actually get our vehicles up and running, fight the war, concentrate on the suicides and failed marriages, you know all the REAL STUFF THE ARMY SHOULD WORRY ABOUT BESIDES WHAT THE FLYING *&&^&*( WE SHOULD BE WEARING AT THE OFFICE. IDIOTS

[INGUARD]

Actually the overall hands down winner in the survey was the "pinks and tans" from WWII however as usual this was shot down by self serving Army Brass who wanted the montrosity known as the ASU. Heaven forbid we actually give the Soldiers something they would enjoy wearing.

Exactly. This is what I wanted to wear but too bad I didnt serve in WWII. I voted for the tan shirt but they shot that down. They grey one was short lived until someone voted to bring the white one back. Yuck!!:confused:

[MSMUROTC]

If we had the gray shirt, you'd all complain about having to buy two shirts.

[justin0495]

I think most of you are missing the point. No one is suggesting wearing a dress uniform to the motor pool. Those of us that are promoting wear of the Class A or B ASU are just saying this:

GEN Casey should not be going on Meet the Press in ACUs. Army recruiters should not be going to professional job fairs in ACUs when the other branches (including the ground pounding currently fighting Marines) are in their dress uniforms. Soldiers should not be handling remains in ceremonies that are supposed to be dignified, especially when the Commander in Chief is standing right there in a suit and tie. Soldiers should not be at professional sporting events honoring our flag when the other branches are looking sharp (see Marines comment above).

My God, are most of you that lazy that you can’t see the utter lack of pride this presents? The current Army Times (“Put on Class As”) has an appalling letter from a gentleman that went to a black tie event and the ROTC cadets even showed up in the Dress Greens. But an idiot Colonel and CSM were too lazy to put on their jackets and showed up in ACUs. Yes, it is all about pride and professionalism. But, who am I to bitch? If GEN Casey or SMA doesn’t care (even after spending boat loads of $ on a new dress uniform and telling everyone to transition to the ASU), then I guess I don’t care either.

[RONALD45]

Yes, it is all about pride and professionalism. But, who am I to bitch? If GEN Casey or SMA doesn’t care (even after spending boat loads of $ on a new dress uniform and telling everyone to transition to the ASU), then I guess I don’t care either.[/QUOTE]

No actually it is about something as utterly petty as to what the hell we wear to work when we are trying to fight two wars. Quite frankly I don't give a rat's ass about what the public perception of those of us in uniform is. Last I checked the "public" had less than a 1% interest in this war to begin with. When they join up in mass then they can tell us what to wear otherwise as long as we are protecting their sorry asses while they attend their little league soccer games and go to the mall they can use their "right" to respectfully STFU already.

[MSMUROTC]

Ultimately, the uniform of the day is dictated by the commander. If units wanted to, they could. It's a unit issue, not an Army issue. Yes, there's the whole ACU's/war on terror thing, but no one is going to say anything to a unit commander if he designates dress uniforms once a week / month / for office personnel.

Ultimately, all the stuff on the ASU that everyone is complaining about is, like on the A's and B's always were, completely optional to the wearer. If you don't like the CSIB, don't wear it. If you don't like the CAB, don't wear it. If you're in B's and you don't want to wear anything, don't.

I am sure there will be an increased clothing allowance for the ASU, so the price thing isn't really an issue. You can also go to a thrift store / ebay, or you could wear A's until you ETS because it's such an onerous burden for $500 or whatever for a one time purchase. I don't really feel a ton of sympathy for an Army that's full of people who buy iPhones, buy F-350 super diesel extended cab extended bed trucks and then jack them up, spend money like water at strip clubs / bars on the weekends. If you utilize your clothing allowance wisely every year, you have enough for your uniforms. You have ADO on deployment, and if didn't get to use it effectively, that's your unit's fault, not the Army's.

Stop whining about uniforms. You sound like a bunch of girl scouts.

[01KEVIN]

I work at the Pentagon and I feel very comfortable in my ACU. I use to work in a bank, back in my civilian time. There was one thing I hated and it was working in suit and tie all day; thanks god to the ACU for office work. The only thing I have to do on the weekends is clean my boots, because the instructions for the ACU say NO IRONING. I feel now that I have more time to spend with my kinds instead of ironing clothes and shinning boots; and that is not been lazy, that means family time. Can you imagine how dirty those white stupid shirts are going to get. Please keep my wearing ACU's

[DAVEBUCK187COM]

Actually the overall hands down winner in the survey was the "pinks and tans" from WWII however as usual this was shot down by self serving Army Brass who wanted the montrosity known as the ASU. Heaven forbid we actually give the Soldiers something they would enjoy wearing.

There were two polls. The first poll was done in the summer of 2001. As I remember the pinks and greens edged out the blue uniform idea. In 2006 when the Army was floating out the idea of a blue service uniform, the blue uniform edged out the the pinks and greens. Now it would not have hurt my feelings one bit if the Army would have adopted the pinks and greens. Good looking uniform.

[BlackShoe]

Justino 495 hit it right on the head. If you work, wear a working uniform. If you dwell in an office, you should wear a uniform appropriate for that job. It wasn't that long ago that the Army (in the office) was in BDUs once a week, and people griped because they didn't like that.

Ronald 45 is right that there are more important things to worry about, but he missed the mark about public perceptions for two reasons:
First, the public pays us. If they see us as a professional, competent, and capable force, worthwhile investment, they will continue to do so. If they see us as floppy grey buckets of turds, they are less likely to be interested when we ask for more money to buy helicopters, tanks, sunglasses- whatever.
Second, we are an all-volunteer force, and like it or not, every time you wear the uniform, you are a recruiter. Would you want to join a service that looks like we so often do? Did you look up to the guy in the bagged-out camouflage or the dress uniform with the shiny pieces of flair that go all over it?

Comfort is a convenient excuse- a well-fitted Class-A or -B uniform is plenty comfortable.

[MCGYVER]

Blackshoe, the public doesn't vote on our pay raises or on our military budget. Just because the jokers working in the pentagon should be wearing business dress (and I concur on that) doesn't mean that those of us in line units should. It's just retarded. I have an office but spend most of my time in the field or in the motor pool. Do you think that whenever I spend the day in my office I should be in Class A's? The only civilian I ever see is the female that cleans our building. The damn good idea fairy strikes again.

[MSMUROTC]

this is such a non-issue.do you really think someone from DA is going to come to your unit and tell you what to wear?

people will start wearing dress uniforms at corps/div/etc. HQ. it'll dribble down until units start to push back / they don't think to bother to ask. no one is going to tell an IN BN they have to wear dress uniform more frequently than the typical payday activities schedule.

such nonsensical, imaginary outrage.

[BlackShoe]

MSMUROTC, like others before him is right... and so is MacGyver- mostly. (Surprised?) I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear before- military budgets are not determined by popular vote, but they do require congressional approval, and congress is elected by the people. Make no mistake- we work for the civilians, and if it weren't for them, we wouldn't have any reason the exist... that's an issue for a separate thread.

Nobody in their right mind would suggest working in the motor pool in a class A or B (or C for our Marine brothers and sisters) uniform. Many of the things we do would be inappropriate for those uniforms. I work in a cubicle, as do many of us. I work with other military and civilian personnel who also work in cubicles. People like me have no real business in a work (or field) uniform. Last time I was in DC, I rode in a METRO car out of town with a couple of dozen military personnel of various branches in camouflage, presumably so they can hide better at the Pentagon. These people, no matter what post (base), are the ones we are talking about. All that any of us have asked is that we (all of us) take a moment to remember what we learned in boot camp, and should have learned in commisisoning sources. Wear a uniform appropriate to the work we do, wear it with pride, and watch the image we project to the real world.

For anyone who does the sort of work MacGyver does, and goes from one environment to another, use your grown-up judgment to decide the best uniform for your situation.

[MCGYVER]

I like what Ronald45 says above. I also concur that it's not likely to be a policy anytime (soon) that we must wear the ASU when in an office environment regardless of MOS, however, I do see that some think this is a good idea and there is the potential for some stupid ass rule to be made. Lord knows I've seen some doosies over the last 20 years. The worst yet is the damn beret but we all know that. I thought for sure it would have been changed back by now but sometimes stupid sticks.

As for working for civilians, I think I covered it before when I said that they fall under our protection so we work for them in the same respect as we work for our friends or our family. They don't sign our checks, give us orders or make our policies. Hell, congress obviously doesn't even care (based on voting records in the Senate) that much what the public thinks or wants.

[dragon36]

first off the latest article in the ARMY times titled Class A Pride is an Obama-nation. How do you even sight or compare what the President of the United States of America is wearing to what the Soldiers (Generals) present at the dignified transfer of remains killed in combat are wearing? This has the typical undertones of racism that's still present in the military. So now that the black man has on a suit everyone else without a suit looks some how "less dignified"...come on..really. The President will never dawn a combat service uniform because that's not his job. Perhaps they should look at changing the Army regulations under 670-1 on what attire should be worn at such functions if there so worried about looking "sloppy" a total disrespect for every soldier who puts on his combat service uniform everyday.

[RONALD45]

this is such a non-issue.do you really think someone from DA is going to come to your unit and tell you what to wear?


Your right it is a "non-issue and DA shouldn't get involved, just like all the "OTHER NON ISSUES DA HAS GOTTEN INVOLVED IN" such as

Gays in the military: non issue if they serve let, if they don't want to fine again shouldn't have to take DA getting involved not like the next Gay and Lesbian pride parade in New York city is going to end at the Time's Square recruiting office

What camouflage we should wear again if the ARMY WAS DOING IT'S DAMNED JOB it would be a "non issue" but DA is involved.

We shouldn't committ suicide, again a non issue pretty much flipping common sense if you ask me but since we long ago QUIT TAKING SOLDIERS WITH COMMON SENSE (and would recruit chimpanzees if we could teach em how to hold a rifle anything to not bring back a draft) DA got involved.

Promotion of Soldiers, used to this was done at the unit level, hell we used to give Battlefield promotions much more so than today. The Army SCREWED THE POOCH ON THIS ONE TOO and DA got involved.

Counseling for Soldiers and NCOes used to be straight forward fairly easy oops someone screwed up and repeatedly they got the boot DA got involved now we have the damned 2166-8-1 forms that also have to be filled out and it almost takes an act of Congress to put someone that should have never been allowed in to begin with out of the Army. Thanks DA

Leave used to be straight forward, you filled out a DA 31 ANY TIME OF YEAR and as long as your unit wasn't doing anything and you had the time you got the leave. Now due to screw ups we have BLOCK LEAVE and have to fill out 20 damned forms to take leave because DA got involved.

Used to we fought wars and they were over with fairly quickly the goal was to eradicate the enemy and come home. Now once again Politicians, the Public, DEMOCRATS, and DA got involved. Since it has taken us OVER NINE YEARS to finally figure out what the hell it is we are doing in Afghanistan and BEGIN TO FIGHT THAT WAR.

So don't tell me DA won't once again stick it's nose in an area were it doesn't belong because it is a "non issue" allow the government the opportunity to clust*f*ck something and that is exactly what will occur

[MSMUROTC]

DADT: I'm pretty sure that setting enlistment standards is DA business.

i'm pretty sure setting the standard for the uniform for all soldiers is DA business.

i think scads of soldiers killing themselves and higher mandating some training is DA business.

promoting at the unit level still exists because you can reccomend or block soldiers from promotion ... at the E-5/6 level it's pretty easy. higher than that, people wouldn't get promoted if their leadership had the courage / insight to honestly rate people. decentralizing promotions makes it less likely for units to have easy/impossible promotion standards, people get blocked because of vendettas or advanced because they suck up to the boss, etc. i think it's debatable but I think it's far from unreasonable.

i think the putting people out of the Army thing is directly related to the whole "we're fighting two wars" thing. it takes a lot of time / money / energy to put a soldier out and get someone to replace them. that's DA business.

i might be wrong, but I don't think the leave packet is a DA mandated thing, I'm pretty sure that's a unit thing.

i have no clue what your last paragraph is supposed to be about, but it seems like you're talking national policy, and I don't see how that's, say, a battalion level function.

i think telling a battalion what uniform it has to wear on a certain day of the week is not DA business, and it will never happen. it's not like they tell you what to do for PT.

i'll probably eat my words eventually.

[justin0495]

Getting back to the public perception thing, maybe it’s true that the Army is the least “elite” of the services. If there is this much backlash against looking NICE every once in awhile, looking PROFESSIONAL (Oh, I don’t know, kinda like what the NCO Creed states) when representing the Army, well maybe we deserve that perception. Again, if the Army Chief of Staff can’t be bothered with the ASU on Meet the Press, if a Colonel and his CSM can’t be bothered with the ASU at a black tie event, then who are any of us to argue?

[MCGYVER]

justin, not sure where you grew up but being told what to wear by anybody that's not in my chain of command is like being a kid and having someone elses dad order you around.

[justin0495]

being told what to wear by anybody that's not in my chain of command...

McG, you do realize that we all share the Commander in Chief, Secretary of Defense, Secretary of the Army, and Army Chief of Staff in each of our respective chain of commands, right?

You may want to go back and reread why this conversation was started in the first place and WHO started this policy and idea.

While you’re at it, you may also want to go back and read your oath of enlistment. There’s something in there about obeying the orders of the officers appointed over you (which pretty much means all officers).

[MSMUROTC]

who said the Army is the "least elite?" really? i know some airborne rangers and green berets that would beg to differ.

so sorry that I don't sit on a boat or airfield all day.

please.

[justin0495]

MROTC, I’m not saying that I think that. I’m a little over a year removed from Recruiting Duty and there are plenty of USAREC studies and hard evidence that the “general public” thinks we are the least elite. I argued, even then, to get recruiters’ butts back in Class Bs and As for, at the very least, for job fairs. But, the brain childs at USAREC, like some of the other lazy asses in command, argued the whole “nation at war” excuse for being in ACUs.

So, my point is that we have self fulfilled our reputation because now it seems like there are those who can’t even imagine putting on a Class A for a professional setting or ceremony. We all know that perception is reality and when the public sees all the branches but the Army looking professional, well maybe that perception is true…

[MCGYVER]

justin, if you truly believe the bile you spew why not get the hell out of this inferior service and join one that you consider more professional/elite? I'm talking about the civilian leadership telling the Soldiers what to wear. I consider it an affront to the Military in general and the senior Military leaders in specific. I will take orders from my chain of command. I don't have to agree with them or even think that they are logical. If they are retarded but legal I'll follow them. Just because something is a rule doesn't make it right.

[justin0495]

OK, McG, I will try to expalin as simply as I can, read my last post:

*I* don't think the Army is the least elite. Quite the opposite in fact, I'm proud of whatever Army uniform I wear, be it ACU or ASU (which I've worn only once).

It's the general perception - out there - that thinks the Army is the least elite, due in no small part to the Army being seen in nothing but ACUs (trying to stay on topic here).

Example, I'm Mr and Mrs Joe Schmoe who's child sees a bunch of recruiters at the high school. All of them are dressed up real nice like, except for that Army dude - "Hey mom and dad, look at those military guys, especially the Marines, they look GOOD in those uniforms. Guess that Army guy doesn't care much..."

What mom and pop and junior don't know is that Army guy is ordered to wear the ACU at formal functions because, "we're a nation at war..."

[MCGYVER]

Okay justin, I'll repost your last paragraph of your previous post:
"So, my point is that we have self fulfilled our reputation because now it seems like there are those who can’t even imagine putting on a Class A for a professional setting or ceremony. We all know that perception is reality and when the public sees all the branches but the Army looking professional, well maybe that perception is true…"

When you end your post with "maybe that perception is true" you are telling me volumes about what you truly feel. Have a nice day.

[RONALD45]

[QUOTE]
It's the general perception - out there - that thinks the Army is the least elite, due in no small part to the Army being seen in nothing but ACUs (trying to stay on topic here).
[QUOTE]

1. Largest number of suicides in any service
2. lowered recruiting standards to take in felons, convicts, ex drug users and those without high school diploma's
3. Treat's grown adults like children more than any other service (usually excused as being "more safety conscious")
4. Abu Ghraib
5. Walter Reed
6. Fort Hood shootings
7. highest number of sexual assaults
8. 9 years trying to kick two 3rd world country's asses and STILL haven't gotten it done
9. crazy ROE's to minimize "civilian" casualties (even if that "civilian" is the one shooting at you")
10. highest numbers of those stop lossed to fight those wars
11. constant stories of SOLDIERS (as opposed to the others) committing crimes
12. least amount of opportunities once you get passed 10 years than any other Service
13. Seen to have the "worst" living conditions on many of the "worst" instillations out of the Services
14. Across the board lowering of standards and lackluster BASIC Training making it so anyone can pass
15. Believing that Soldiers that should be booted out can "just be rehabilitated, if only those mean ol' NCOes would just take the time and find it in their hearts to forgive them"
16. Highest number of divorces
17. Literally millions spent on equipment that is PROVEN TO BE INFERIOR (ie ACU's, body armor, M16's) and continues to do so
18. large numbers of higher ranks being relieved of position or jobs
19. longest deployments of any service
20. highest incidences of recruiting fraud to get em to join
21. highest incidences of trainee abuse once they do join
22. lowered requirements for promotion for both NCO's and Officers
23. allowing JAG lawyers to second guess those on the battlefield and then charge them with "crimes" for protecting themselves and their Soldiers the best way they knew how at the time.





All of THIS but the reason we are seen as the LEAST ELITE OF OUR SERVICES IS BECAUSE OF WHAT WE ARE WEARING (AS OPPOSED TO OH I DON'T KNOW, WHAT WE ARE DOING AND HOW WE ARE DOING IT) ????:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[RONALD45]

Yeah it couldn't be a result of micromanagement, p*sspoor leadership, a complete disregard for standards and discipline as long as we "bring in the troops" to fight a never ending war etc. Naw it has got to be us wearing those Gawd Awful ACU's all over the place in public. Never mind these uniforms (now being replaced by multicam yet another example of wasting $$$$ millions on lackluster gear) were touted as the best thing since gunpowder by the same Army Leadership now telling us to stop wearing them in public.

[Hawk Driver]

Getting back to the public perception thing, maybe it’s true that the Army is the least “elite” of the services. If there is this much backlash against looking NICE every once in awhile, looking PROFESSIONAL (Oh, I don’t know, kinda like what the NCO Creed states) when representing the Army, well maybe we deserve that perception. Again, if the Army Chief of Staff can’t be bothered with the ASU on Meet the Press, if a Colonel and his CSM can’t be bothered with the ASU at a black tie event, then who are any of us to argue?

How is it unprofessional to wear the Army's Combat Uniform? I'm a professional Soldier, my ACU's and A2CU's are the uniform I wear when I am performing my duties.

The Soldiers who served during almost every war prior to 1900 didn't have dress and field uniforms. They had their blue wool uniforms that they wore into combat. When they were on parade they shined their brass and leather, brushed the coat and trousers, and went forth. They didn't distinguish between field and office.

The Army is not the civilian world. Why should our mode of dress correspond to what civilians think is appropriate? If you look up photos of the current president, and the previous president, both appear more times without a tie than with one.

If you stop in any major airport, Chicago, Atlanta, Dallas-Ft. Worth, you see Soldiers in their ACU's and you know why they're wearing them. Most of them are going to or from a combat zone, and their presence and appearance is a reminder to the public of that fact.

As for recruiting, my father was a recruiter for a very long time time in the Guard, personally recruiting nearly a battalion's worth of Soldiers, and then retiring as an E-9 in the recruiting command. According to him, the green Class A uniform was unapproachable and intimidating to young people. Wearing BDU's or other utilities made the recruiter more approachable and was something that they could relate to. They symbolized actually doing the Army's business, as opposed to suggesting paper work and offices.

Are the Soldiers serving at the Pentagon out of the fight? Ask the ones who were there on 9/11 if they were in the rear and behind the lines. There are no rear areas. Soldiers should be ready at all times, and wearing a combat uniform is much more appropriate and flexible than wearing business casual.

[MCGYVER]

[QUOTE]
It's the general perception - out there - that thinks the Army is the least elite, due in no small part to the Army being seen in nothing but ACUs (trying to stay on topic here).
[QUOTE]

1. Largest number of suicides in any service
2. lowered recruiting standards to take in felons, convicts, ex drug users and those without high school diploma's
3. Treat's grown adults like children more than any other service (usually excused as being "more safety conscious")
4. Abu Ghraib
5. Walter Reed
6. Fort Hood shootings
7. highest number of sexual assaults
8. 9 years trying to kick two 3rd world country's asses and STILL haven't gotten it done
9. crazy ROE's to minimize "civilian" casualties (even if that "civilian" is the one shooting at you")
10. highest numbers of those stop lossed to fight those wars
11. constant stories of SOLDIERS (as opposed to the others) committing crimes
12. least amount of opportunities once you get passed 10 years than any other Service
13. Seen to have the "worst" living conditions on many of the "worst" instillations out of the Services
14. Across the board lowering of standards and lackluster BASIC Training making it so anyone can pass
15. Believing that Soldiers that should be booted out can "just be rehabilitated, if only those mean ol' NCOes would just take the time and find it in their hearts to forgive them"
16. Highest number of divorces
17. Literally millions spent on equipment that is PROVEN TO BE INFERIOR (ie ACU's, body armor, M16's) and continues to do so
18. large numbers of higher ranks being relieved of position or jobs
19. longest deployments of any service
20. highest incidences of recruiting fraud to get em to join
21. highest incidences of trainee abuse once they do join
22. lowered requirements for promotion for both NCO's and Officers
23. allowing JAG lawyers to second guess those on the battlefield and then charge them with "crimes" for protecting themselves and their Soldiers the best way they knew how at the time.





All of THIS but the reason we are seen as the LEAST ELITE OF OUR SERVICES IS BECAUSE OF WHAT WE ARE WEARING (AS OPPOSED TO OH I DON'T KNOW, WHAT WE ARE DOING AND HOW WE ARE DOING IT) ????:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Um, not sure if you knew this but the Army is 3-4 times the size of the other services. We are logically going to have higher numbers of EVERYTHING. Try your math using percentages of incidents instead.

[RONALD45]

Um, not sure if you knew this but the Army is 3-4 times the size of the other services. We are logically going to have higher numbers of EVERYTHING. Try your math using percentages of incidents instead

I am well aware of this fact, but even when percentages are used we still come out ahead on most of the incidences listed above.

[MCGYVER]

Okay but it's nowhere near as drastic (sensational sounding) when you use percentages. The other thing is that the Army is the main force (most active, longest deployments, etc.) so it stands to reason that there would be higher stress levels which would explain the higher rates of everything.

[KTucker]

All I hear is moaning and griping from a bunch of craptastic soldiers who seem to lack disipline and self respect. I wore my B's every day to work in the PACAF Headquarters as an intelligence analyst for the Air Force. When I went off post, it was in my Blues. I felt better and I looked better than if I was in my BDU's. There was a while where I was wearing the BDU's right after we engaged in Afghanistan and Iraq, but shortly there after, it was mandated that we would return to wearing Blue's to the office unless we were going out for training, (yes the AF does train). Yeah, the BDU's were far more comfortable, but they don't look professional.
I get pissed when I see Basic trainee's and AIT'ers off post at the flipping mall and in restaurants wearing ACfreaking U's. They look sloppy, undiciplined and half assed. It is unacceptible. I also find it unacceptable that they are allowed off post to begin with prior to graduation week. I certainly never left my training area in the Air Force, but then that's a debate for another post. It is also unacceptible for any soldier to show up to an event in anything other than a dress uniform. No other service does that.

You all are whining, becasuse it means you will have to break out that green or (new) blue uniform and be sure everything is on there properly, as well as maintain it on it a consistent basis. You don't have to get it dry cleaned, it can be As far as that fellow who said that his wife would have to do it...freaking buck up jackass and do it yourself...because yeah, your wife shouldn't be responsible for YOUR uniform. That's on you. It means you will have to make a greater effort to get dressed in the morning, you have to be sure that they color matches, that there are no strings hanging, everything is alligned, and shiny, and there are no tears or discoloration of the ribbons. Well, damn....that sucks. To look more professional. The terror of having to ensure that your gig line is straight throughout the day, and that your shirt is properly and tightly tucked in. That your shoes are unscuffed, that's so hard. The main issue here is the effort you have to expend in wearing the uniform properly, you can't just wash and wear it and not care about how it looks.

I am married to an Infantryman of 16 years experience, he takes care of all his uniforms. They are properly maintained so that if he has to pull it out he isn't trying to crap out the proper ribbons or spazing because some part no longer fits properly. This is the responsibility of ALL soldiers. I do believe that this is covered in basic training the proper maintanence of your equipment and clothing. Do you have to pay for some items that can't be DX'd, of course, but that is what the clothing allowance given every year is for. The change over to the blues is why that allowance has increased.

Let's touch on the other aspect that is dictating the wear of ACU's to most functions (which thank God hasn't extended to Funerals) is that we are a nation at war and therefore it makes the soldiers who deploy feel that those in the rear are supporting them via the predominant wear of ACUs. None of the Soldiers I have queried feel that they are any more supported in the Combat zone by simply having all the Army wearing the ACU. Professionalism and Dicipline are what we are talking about here. Any argument against wearing the Class A's or Blues is flimsy at best. And the guy who said that men wearing the ACU are more approachable and less intimidating, that is more about the personality of the recruiter and less to do with what they wear. Does the ACU look more relaxed? Of course, but the Class A's and B's look far more professional.

The gentlemen who commented that back in the Civil War the uniform you wore was the one you went to war in, yeah true for the Civil War time frame but not later, during WWI and WWII. The uniforms changed and developed into something else. You had those you wore that you could get dirty in, then you have the one you wore that looked professional. No navy man would go off ship in his dungarees and no soldier even coming in from Korea or Vietnam would go about town in his fatigues. It is about impressions to a certain extent. If you are sloppy you will look sloppy in anything, but if you put forth some effort you will look far better and with a professional demenor more approachable. There is a standard for the wear of the class A's with open collar and I am pretty sure the new Blue's will follow suit. It's not that difficult guys and gals. I know for a fact, my unit would look a heck of a lot more professional dressed in class A's than they do in their ACU's. It would make a better impression when Generals and Civilians come by to see what we do for their soldiers.

If you aren't in the field training, wear the professional uniform.

[RONALD45]

Well for one not all of us are afforded a nice air conditioned/heated OFFICE JOB to work in our careers courtesy of the Air Force (funny it seems as ALL THOSE who make uniform decisions are however). What about those of us that spend maybe half the day in the office, the other half outside ACTUALLY checking on our troops (you know that aspect of the job that REQUIRES many of us to actually leave the office once in awhile). What about those of us who may come to the office, check our emails then go to a motor pool and work on a truck then go back to the office to play catch up?? What about those of us who work in Hospitals (yeah it is indoors therefore an office) but have to literally clean crap and empty bedpans (oh and before I get it not all of us are afforded scrubs by our commands).

So yeah I agree those working IN OFFICES should wear the dress uniform, however due to the wars our LEADERSHIP seems unable to WIN or allow us to win, many of us are no longer in offices the entire time we are at work. Now if you want to waste your time changing into a different uniform EVERYTIME mission dictates you leave the office, please by all means be my guest. However most of us have better and far more important things to do with or time (in large part do to our Leaderships failure to GROW the service before they sent us to war) than change in and out of uniform 15 times a day.

Don't believe it will happen do you the post I am on now used to require us to carry 3 FORMS of headgear with us to the motorpool patrol cap to be worn in the motor pool cause it wasn't considered "garrison" beret to wear in garrison and from our cars to the motor pool gate (upon stepping foot inside the motor pool we were to switch to patrol cap) and finally a Kevlar in case we had to drive one of those vehicles. Being the idiots that they are, I can see us carrying two uniforms around on a hanger everywhere we go so we can change into the "correct" one if need be.

As far as the ACU looking sloppy and unprofessional? WE SCREAMED THIS FROM THE ROOFTOPS WHEN THEY CHOSE THE DAMNED THINGS AS THE UNIFORM. So now that THEY are ashamned of THEIR selection they want the troops to pay for their mistakes. Hello we have been paying for their mistakes for the last nine years.

[RONALD45]

They look sloppy, undiciplined and half assed.

I feel the same way about those who have visible tattoo's while in uniform, but because we wanted "Soldiers" to fight our wars we gave up on that one.

[KTucker]

@Ronald45
It is not about being ashamed of the ACU, other than for my Air Force compatriots...damn tiger stripes. It's about professional wear. You...like so damn many soldiers, are blowing this out of proportion. It's called common freaking sense. If you are in the office all day, you wear the Class A's or Blues, if you are in garrison and needing to clean gear and field strip your weapon, you obviously don't come in wearing the A's/Blues, but the ACU/Multicam. If you are teaching troops in garrison you all can wear the A's/Blues. If you choose to go out and check your troops for a few hours then yes, switch uniforms. It's not that big of a deal. If you return and it's a couple hours till quitting time, then don't change. Again, not a big deal.

Outside of the field the BDU looked sloppy and unprofessional, it was for Battlefield wear. Even when it was professionaly pressed, it didn't quite look right and was costly as Command's demanded that the uniform be worn in a way it was not meant to which required eight sets of the uniform to be maintained, four for garrison and 4 for the field.

As for you argument regarding medical staff, doctors and nurses and other staff, if they are military they are in...Yup...Class A's or the new Blues or low and behold an uniform provided to them by the military. Yes...they do get scrubs...its why the scrubs have the name of the hospital or medical facility on them. If they want their own, they can go buy them. Civilians, my friend, have to purchase all their own medical clothing.

Tatoos, well, I'm not such a big stickler regarding tatoos depending on what they are saying. I'd draw the line at sleeves and anything on the face and neck. If they come in with it and are good soldiers, I'm not going to have any issues with it.

As for being Air Force, I was stuck in vault 14 hours plus a day. Not my idea of a fun time. Was I comfortable? Sure, I didn't get rained on, I wasn't in freezing or hot conditions, but that doesn't mean my service and job were any less or any less important. My job dictated the conditions of my office, not which Branch of Military I VOLUNTARILY served in. If I was MI in the Army, I would still be working predominantly in an office. Do you bitch about them, probably not as much as other branches. Pop your head out of your rear, we are all in the fight together and each of our roles is vital and worthy of respect and consideration.

If you have a problem with the higher ups making such decisions...then get up there yourself and make a difference.

[RONALD45]

@Ronald45
It is not about being ashamed of the ACU, other than for my Air Force compatriots...damn tiger stripes. It's about professional wear. You...like so damn many soldiers, are blowing this out of proportion. It's called common freaking sense. If you are in the office all day, you wear the Class A's or Blues, if you are in garrison and needing to clean gear and field strip your weapon, you obviously don't come in wearing the A's/Blues, but the ACU/Multicam. If you are teaching troops in garrison you all can wear the A's/Blues. If you choose to go out and check your troops for a few hours then yes, switch uniforms. It's not that big of a deal. If you return and it's a couple hours till quitting time, then don't change. Again, not a big deal.

Well I guess I will have to disagree cause it is a big deal, for years we told them the uniforms looked unprofessional and they didn't listen. Now because some chief gets upset it is an issue. Personally it becomes a big deal to me when what the hell we wear is spent taking priority over fighting the wars we are charged with fighting. No instead our Service Chiefs had rather argue over what uniform is "appropriate" for wear and when? Really, want to make us look like a more professional force?? Then worry about the "war" hello??? Not uniforms and Gays, not patterns and cuts and colors cause frankly I don't give a damn what I wear, and neither should anyone else. If shot and the person saving my life is wearing a loincloth as long as my life is saved I could give a rat's *ss what they are wearing. Again if you want to take the time to change clothes 30 times a day more power to ya, if that is your "idea" of professionalism. Personally I'll take a Soldier who knows his job, does his job, is proficient, on time, and takes care of his/her surbordinates how I measure professionalism than one who "looks the part" any day of the week but can't Soldier their way out of a paper bag.

[KTucker]

Actually the importance of the functionality of the combat uniform cannot be overstated. It is the wear of a more professional uniform here in the rear that is the debate. Should there be more poinant focus on winning the war on terrorism? Absolutely. Are we being hamstringned by politics and not given enough direction and ability to effectively fight and maintain ground in Afghanistan? Absolutely. We are making the same mistakes to many large extents as Russia did, but we also need to take those steps that Charlie Wilson begged us to many years ago. We shouldn't "fuck up the end game" as we did in the past. This though, will take the world to help and not just the United States. That is another debate. I have no intention of dismissing what your concerns, many higher ups are focused on the war, there are so many other levels of buracracy that are getting in the way, especially when congress prevents funds and pulls the war leaders back to Washington to discuss matters when they need to remain in theatre in order to get the job done. Again, this is about people here in the rear, not about those forward deployed. There are bigger issues but this change doesn't effect them until they return home. Ask a few WWII veterans how they felt about their uniforms and their required uniform changes, I'm sure it will be a facinating coversation.

[RONALD45]

For the life of me I cannot figure out why it is even an issue. Seems the problem arose when a reporter (go figure) snapped a shot of Soldiers in ACU's unloading the remains of a fallen comrade from a plane while the President nearby was in a suit. Until that picture was released to the public, this was not an issue. I can guarantee those Soldiers or that detail had been performed hundreds of times before with Soldiers in ACU's. Hell it could be a reason that REPORTERS WERE BANNED FROM THIS EXACT AREA for 8 years prior. These Soldiers probably were at home, asleep when word came down "hey we have a planeload of Soldiers remains arriving at 0'dark thirty at Dover can you be there to receive the remains and render honors". Same thing had probably happened a thousand times over. But because some government *sshole bureaucrat who had never served decided to "lift the ban" on reporters covering this ceremony so they could create even more chaos and "distractions" for the troops so they can have their little news story this became an issue.

It gets back to whom do you want to please, the Service Chiefs should be concerned with the war, not pleasing everyone in the damned public and government. If they had a backbone amongst them they would be saying "yeah a bunch of tired, worn out, Soldiers had to be awakened in the middle of the night after a 10 hour work day to come and receive a comrades remains off a flight. It was done with dignity, honor, and respect and we really don't give a FLYING F*CK what the public perception is, in our opinion the reporter shouldn't have even been there. But no someone raised a beef after seeing this picture of Soldiers in ACU's carrying a casket (care to guess what the Soldiers who recovered the remains in the first damned place were wearing???) and the Chiefs bent over backwards to once again "please the public at large". Maybe if they (Service Chiefs, DOD etc) were to concentrate on pleasing the ONES FIGHTING THE WAR instead of those SITTING ON THEIR *SSES AT HOME WATCHING IT ON TELEVISION they would have more admiration and respect from those they represent.

[pawn65]

QUOTE=RONALD45;344342] It gets back to whom do you want to please, the Service Chiefs should be concerned with the war, not pleasing everyone in the damned public and government. If they had a backbone amongst them they would be saying "yeah a bunch of tired, worn out, Soldiers had to be awakened in the middle of the night after a 10 hour work day to come and receive a comrades remains off a flight. It was done with dignity, honor, and respect and we really don't give a FLYING F*CK what the public perception is, in our opinion the reporter shouldn't have even been there. But no someone raised a beef after seeing this picture of Soldiers in ACU's carrying a casket (care to guess what the Soldiers who recovered the remains in the first damned place were wearing???) and the Chiefs bent over backwards to once again "please the public at large". Maybe if they (Service Chiefs, DOD etc) were to concentrate on pleasing the ONES FIGHTING THE WAR instead of those SITTING ON THEIR *SSES AT HOME WATCHING IT ON TELEVISION they would have more admiration and respect from those they represent.[/QUOTE]

They could just make it like the Navys Policy Wear Dress uniforms for ceremonys and funerals. and where the CUU AND NWU for everything else. But the way the beret looks like crap on your dress uniform. I prefer the cover like what they wear at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. I can understand it being used to receive remains of a comrade, and to me its more dignified for the situation. The problem is the people that come up with these wear rules for the different branches do not use common sense.

[KTucker]

This isn't only about those Soldiers receiving the remains of those fallen in ACU's, that actually doesn't bother me. That is understandable becaues the President isn't there a majority of the time. The fact that the President was present and those Soldiers weren't told to be in Dress uniform that it rankeled some folks. Typically once wants to put their best foot forward, especially since the President goes no where without a camera capturing the "moment". Just to get nit picky on the details, those who work on the flight lines typically already know what kind of cargo they will be offloading, no one gets a call out of the blue. Those flights are planned several days ahead of time, and their manifest is released to the recieving The ACU wear outside of the field or dirty work at all events that doesn't require Dress Uniform has been remarked upon for several years now. It is just getting more attention. I have been complaining about it's inapropriate wear for years. You, Ronald45, are simply focusing on the most pointed out picture, as an example as though that was the instigating moment on this issue. It is a minor issue but also a valid one. Believe me, the general populace doesn't dictate military policy but our appearance is very important. You need to calm down and keep this discussion on perspective.