Why there has been a breakdown in disipline in the military

[RADENNIS0]

I read a lot about how the younger generation of military personnel isn't as disciplined and shows less respect to those of senior rank.

I think there are basically two reasons for this:

1. Elimination of physical counseling.

2. America's general elimination of a class-based society.

On point one: There used to be a time where people were put in their place by taking a walk out back or in the forward locker. I know that it went too far too many times. But, it did keep people in line.

On point two: In the ages prior to WWII officers were generally of noble blood. The common soldiers and sailors were generally peasants (for lack of a better word).

Everyone knew their station in life. There were written and unwritten social rules about how to speak, eat and so on. Peasants rarely became officers. The civilian social structure was echoed in the military.

Then WWII came. Millions of Americans from all walks of life (as in all social classes) were thrust into positions that they otherwise wouldn't have had the opportunity to take.

The post WWII era saw a huge change in the social classes of America. As the years go on there becomes very little to separate the rich from the poor. The rich aren't beyond the law anymore. The poor can afford big screen TVs.

So, a poor kid joins the military and sees higher ranking people and thinks "They're no better than I am" and acts like it.

And due to point number one above, not much can be done about it except paperwork and extra duty.

Do you agree?

[Measure Man]

Originally Posted by RADENNIS0

I read a lot about how the younger generation of military personnel isn't as disciplined and shows less respect to those of senior rank.

I think there are basically two reasons for this:

1. Elimination of physical counseling.

2. America's general elimination of a class-based society.

On point one: There used to be a time where people were put in their place by taking a walk out back or in the forward locker. I know that it went too far too many times. But, it did keep people in line.

On point two: In the ages prior to WWII officers were generally of noble blood. The common soldiers and sailors were generally peasants (for lack of a better word).

Everyone knew their station in life. There were written and unwritten social rules about how to speak, eat and so on. Peasants rarely became officers. The civilian social structure was echoed in the military.

Then WWII came. Millions of Americans from all walks of life (as in all social classes) were thrust into positions that they otherwise wouldn't have had the opportunity to take.

The post WWII era saw a huge change in the social classes of America. As the years go on there becomes very little to separate the rich from the poor. The rich aren't beyond the law anymore. The poor can afford big screen TVs.

So, a poor kid joins the military and sees higher ranking people and thinks "They're no better than I am" and acts like it.

And due to point number one above, not much can be done about it except paperwork and extra duty.

Do you agree?

Boy, the good old days when rich white males could beat on the rest of us...

Are you serious?

[Variable Wind]

Originally Posted by Measure Man

Boy, the good old days when rich white males could beat on the rest of us...

Are you serious?

I was readying my usual "wussification of America" post but then I read the whole post and was thinking exactly the same. Noble blood? Pheasants? going to a cross burning later on today?

[CVal]

Planning on turning the US into a monarchy, too?

[Your_Name_Here]

Originally Posted by Variable Wind

I was readying my usual "wussification of America" post but then I read the whole post and was thinking exactly the same. Noble blood? Pheasants? going to a cross burning later on today?

Hey VW,

What's wrong with Pheasants? I think they're GREAT eating!!!

[Your_Name_Here]

Originally Posted by RADENNIS0

I read a lot about how the younger generation of military personnel isn't as disciplined and shows less respect to those of senior rank.

I think there are basically two reasons for this:

1. Elimination of physical counseling.

2. America's general elimination of a class-based society.

On point one: There used to be a time where people were put in their place by taking a walk out back or in the forward locker. I know that it went too far too many times. But, it did keep people in line.

On point two: In the ages prior to WWII officers were generally of noble blood. The common soldiers and sailors were generally peasants (for lack of a better word).

Everyone knew their station in life. There were written and unwritten social rules about how to speak, eat and so on. Peasants rarely became officers. The civilian social structure was echoed in the military.

Then WWII came. Millions of Americans from all walks of life (as in all social classes) were thrust into positions that they otherwise wouldn't have had the opportunity to take.

The post WWII era saw a huge change in the social classes of America. As the years go on there becomes very little to separate the rich from the poor. The rich aren't beyond the law anymore. The poor can afford big screen TVs.

So, a poor kid joins the military and sees higher ranking people and thinks "They're no better than I am" and acts like it.

And due to point number one above, not much can be done about it except paperwork and extra duty.

Do you agree?

I am sure you might have been trying to make a legitimate point, but there is just one problem: your unfortunate word choice.

Run--don't walk--to your local bookstore and buy yourself a Thesaurus! It would potentially save you from future skewerings, though not the ones you will be getting for this.

And now, MY turn: YGBFSM if you really think "Nobles" existed in the US in the early 20th Century. And you didn't say a word to back up your laughable notion that poor people automatically see senior personnel as better than themselves.

But since you are calling on a return to the "good old days" how about you do YOUR part by inviting your immediate supervisor to take you out back for "wall-to-wall" counseling; that would show us you are willing to put your money where your mouth is! You signing over all your assets to me would also be a good first step to bringing a return to the "class" system. I am 3 classes from my BS, so I figure I am close enough to
"nobility" for our purposes.

You want to know where the lack of discipline comes from? Here's a better answer: 1)No Home Training, 2)Ineffectual parenting from those who'd rather be friends than parents, 3)constant Media bombardment from a dizzying array of figures who are so full of themselves, and expect the public's adulation for it.

But it's not all gloom and doom: the younger generations are beneficiaries of the greatest advances in science, technology and education, and other fields, putting them on a completely different footing from that Enlisted ca. WWII who may or may not have finished HS, or the Officer who may or may not have even been to college. It is this footing that we as supervisors and leadership would be well-served addressing.

This is the view from where I sit: YMMV.

[Variable Wind]

Originally Posted by Your_Name_Here

Hey VW,

What's wrong with Pheasants? I think they're GREAT eating!!!

...only a NEOCON would eat Animals. Facist!!!

[imnohero]

Ha, the "younger generation" is exactly like my generation. My peer group when I was an E1-E3 had no respect for SNCOs or Officers. Now that I'm a SNCO, I can hardly expect the nature of youth to change.

Discipline is taught, respect is earned.

[Your_Name_Here]

Originally Posted by Variable Wind

...only a NEOCON would eat Animals. Facist!!!

Hush up and grab a plate--you KNOW you want some. LOL

[RADENNIS0]

I think it is fair to say from the responses that I have come across as wholeheartedly endorsing both of my points.

Please let me elaborate some.

As I stated earlier, there are merits to point number one. But it got out of hand. It was taken too far. Simply not being liked by a superior was enough to get a beating.

I'm not for that, mind you. The point is that you can't put anyone in their place now. You have to counsel in paper, in triplicate, with witnesses. Ouch!

On point number two, the point was that as social classes have been eliminated in American society, the military has tried to maintain social classes with mixed results.

RHIP. Rank Has Its Privileges. But not in a society that thinks everything should be "fair" or "equal". It almost sounds Socialist.

Take people from a society that thinks everyone should be treated equal and put them in an environment where there are ranks and separations there will be resistance.

How many times in the last ten or fifteen years have you heard a junior enlisted person act in a rude or disrespectful manner to a superior? And how far did the corrections or discipline go? Not far compared to thirty or forty years ago. Which, again coincides with point number one.

If you take offense to my use of the words "nobles" and "peasants" you exemplify what I am talking about. It is simple truth that commissions where paid for in many cases, the same as being rich could buy you out of military service, too. Officers came from wealthy (or at least well off) families.

In today's military a warrant or commission can be earned by anyone from any socioeconomic and/or racial background. I'm not against this in any way. The point is that the status of officers has changed when enlisted see their own people in positions of authority. It goes back to the "He's no better than me" mentality. I don't agree with that thought process because I think that a warrant or commission is earned. But I think that this is the sentiment held by many other people.

Maybe the words "poor" or "commoner" could be substituted for "peasant". But it wasn't a literal use of the word. The fact remains that poor people showed more outward respect to rich people prior to WWII. And at the same time, enlisted personnel showed even more respect to officers.

As society has changed so has the military.

I am not suggesting that we return to such a strict social class system as in the past. I am pointing out the reason for why we find our military where it is today.