Troop blogs show increasing criticism of war

[CommunityEditor]

In the past year, as soldiers and Marines return for the second, third or even fourth deployments, and the death toll approaches 4,000, some soldiers began questioning the war.

At the very least they risk administrative punishments, called Article 15s, though if it has happened it has been kept quiet.

“The toothpaste is out of the tube. And, try as they might, the military’s information nannies are not going to be able to stuff it back in,” said Noah Schatman of Wired Magazine in an e-mail from Taji, Iraq. He said soldiers will pay $55 a month for a private connection.

The military is so petrified it will lose information control screensavers were installed on military computers warning blogs could jeopardize security, said Schatman, who runs Wired’s Danger Room blog and has tracked the unofficial use of the Internet by soldiers.

The campaign has led some soldiers to steer clear of the Internet. Others do it anyway as confusion reigns because of conflicting signals sent from Washington, he said.

“President Eisenhower warned of the growing military industrial complex in his farewell address. Since Dick Cheney can now afford solid gold oil derricks, it’s safe to say we failed Ike miserably. After losing two friends and over a dozen comrades, I have this to say: Do not wage war unless it is absolutely, positively the last ditch effort for survival,” wrote Spc. Alex Horton, 22, of the 3rd Stryker Brigade in Army of Dude. “In the future, I want my children to grow up with the belief that what I did here was wrong, in a society that doesn’t deem that idea unpatriotic,” he blogged.

Sgt. Thomas Strickland, 27, of Douglasville, Ga., calling himself the Rev Wayfarer, was one of the earliest to speak out publicly. Two days before he drowned in a vehicle accident at Mahmudijah on his second tour he condemned the leadership in “One Foot in the Grave.” He asked what the chain of command had been doing since his first tour. “We were winning somewhat when I left. And now we are being pinned down in our own (expletive deleted) homes. Insurgents are pushing locals out of their homes and taking over my area at will.”

Spc. Eleonai Israel of Bowling Green, Ky., court-martialed and given a less than honorable discharge last month after refusing to go on combat missions, said that like Horton he never heard a peep about what he said on his MySpace site during his year in Iraq.

“The truth will come out, and there is nothing they can do to hide it. The occupation is a disaster. I’m convinced that everyday it continues that it makes America, and the Iraqis less safe,” he said on his MySpace Blog.

Eugene Fidell, president of the National Institute of Military Justice, said a soldier would have to go pretty far before facing any retribution, and officers would be more vulnerable. “The government never wants to make someone a martyr,” he said.

“It’s the first digital war. It’s exciting to watch this because it is going to raise rich issues,” said Fidell, who also teaches at Yale, American University and practices law. Loren Thompson, CEO of the Lexington Insatiate, a Washington, D.C.-based think tank, agreed.

“It’s the subversive nature of the Internet. Technology has caught up with the soldiers, who have always known what was really going on but didn’t have the tools to tell their story,” said Thompson.

The Army has said winning the information war is necessary to win the ground war. Insurgents agree. Tributes to Saddam Hussein are uploaded to YouTube, along with alleged film showing attacks on convoys. Some caught in the middle post their travails. The Army also uploads videos. In many cases it is impossible to verify or even identify who the source is, and it must be taken with a grain of digital salt.

In April, the Army announced new rules on blogging that required soldiers to clear them with a superior. Access to MySpace and some other popular Web sites was blocked. The Army said it was not trying to stop soldiers from speaking their mind, however. And so far, some of them have been.


Article: http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2007/09/ap_soldierblogs_070909/

[Unregistered]

Well that's what you get when you listen to the communist American media who brainwashes these few individuals into thinking that WWII's millions of deaths is the same as 4000. And now we have uniform-less Islamo-fascists bent on destroying jews, Christians, everyone non-Muslim and non-Arab.

[Rasputin]

No, he's right. You're all a bunch of donkies. Go spit on a soldier, that's what you do.


They have a job for you too.
Since you have no valid argument you come up with this semi-patriotic BS of spitting on a soldier.
To disagree with this deranged administration does not imply anything against the soldiers, get informed, get educated and maybe next time you can say something intelligent.

[JRos83]

I'm a registered "donkey" and, WOW, I support our armed forces and servicemen and women, which is probably why I ENLISTED!

Proud donkey soldier.

[Unregistered]

Don't worry about these @$$holes who want to automatically toe the party line. As soon as someone disagrees with the shrub, and his cronies, he/she is automatically a communist/liberal/hater, you name it. These people cannot come up with a rational discussion, so must resort to name calling and mud slinging.

Do I support the war? NO!!! It is based on lies and falsehoods. You cannot convince me that the shrub did not know what he was putting forth was false. Just look at the BS surrounding the supposed attempt to purchase yellow cake. The administration was told several times, before the news briefing, that it was false - yet the administration continued to use the lies.

Support the troops? YES. A soldier, sailor, marine, airman does what is required of him/her. They are not allowed to question the orders, unless illegal. And the courts have not yet allowed anyone to challenge the legality of the order to go to war.


A Retired Soldier

[Unregistered]

Well that's what you get when you listen to the communist American media who brainwashes these few individuals into thinking that WWII's millions of deaths is the same as 4000. And now we have uniform-less Islamo-fascists bent on destroying jews, Christians, everyone non-Muslim and non-Arab.

o wow the american media is not communist believe me.....
it's purely capitalist.

[Unregistered]

The Stockholm Syndrome is always alive and well...back in CONUS..
Seems like the best thing to do....when our hero guys are stuck in
harms way. Actually, if no one seemed to notice.....we are going
through a financial meltdown in this country. It has to do with things
like Hedge Funds and Derivatives....things that really make no sense.
Anyway, controlling the center is basic strategy in Chess and is
most important in this case regarding US Security in the world. Sound
like bull - hmmm...well, we don't train our seven year olds to put on
"suicide belts" just yet. Hey, it may be coming...but not quite yet. In
the meantime, the Flower of American youth...is taking gas...as usual.
It happened in SE Asia and it will happen after this stuff too. "The
cost of Freedom is expensive!" someone said.

[Unregistered]

This article makes me sick and is a disgrace to those who have died and those that continue to serve our country proudly. Todays military is totaly voluntary and no one forced these little cry babies to enlist. My guess is that all they could see when they enlisted was the 20k thrown in their faces or realized that it isnt a video game! HOOAH US you ask? Kicked dogs bark! They arent in a position to question, they are in a position to execute, questioning clouds judgement and leads to mistakes which can lead to my brethern dying. Just my thoughts!

USMC/SSgt

[Unregistered]

This article makes me sick and is a disgrace to those who have died and those that continue to serve our country proudly. Todays military is totaly voluntary and no one forced these little cry babies to enlist. My guess is that all they could see when they enlisted was the 20k thrown in their faces or realized that it isnt a video game! HOOAH US you ask? Kicked dogs bark! They arent in a position to question, they are in a position to execute, questioning clouds judgement and leads to mistakes which can lead to my brethern dying. Just my thoughts!

USMC/SSgt

Hey Marine,

NO ONE told me I gave up my rights to freedom of speech (maybe somewhat limited while in service). And no one has EVER told me I'm not patriotic. Maybe it is the bunch of dumb shits, who advocate, that if you don't agree with the administration that you should shut up, who are actually the unpatriotic. After all, it is you/them who are trying to stifle the freedom of speech!!

Who cried? Not me, or any of the others I know of who disagree with this fiasco. We deployed and we did our duty! Video game? No, people are DYING for LIES AND FALSEHOODS!! A lie by omission is still a lie! Does it mean we have to agree with everything the shrub, and his cronies, spew out? HELL NO!!!!

Kicked dogs bark? Who the hell kicked us? IT sure wasn't Iraq. Or are you one of those who believes that Iraq was involved, despite the panel findings that Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11?

This article is a disgrace? No, the disgrace is those who refuse to believe that troops can do their job, and fail to buy the BS put forth for the reason. The disgrace is those who spew the party line and try to drown out discussions against this farce. Your type makes me sick, so it is equal.
A Retired Soldier

[The Universal Curmudgeon_guest]

This article makes me sick and is a disgrace to those who have died and those that continue to serve our country proudly. ... They arent in a position to question, they are in a position to execute, questioning clouds judgement and leads to mistakes which can lead to my brethern dying. Just my thoughts! USMC/SSgtNot only are they in a "position to question", but they have both the right and duty to question.

The issue is not whether they should be questioning, but at what level they should be questioning.

On the operational, tactical, or even strategic level, I will most heartily agree with you that "questioning" is likely to create more problems than it resolves.

However, on the legal and political level then "questioning" (especially when those questions are answered honestly and frankly) is more likely than not to produce a more effective military force.

One of the main problems, as I see it, is that the troops have never really been given an honest answer to the question "Why in hell are we here?"

*** "Because Iraq has vast stockpiles of WMD and we know where they are hidden." has gone by the boards.

*** "Because we are acting in accordance with UNSC Resolution 1441." has gone by the boards.

*** "Because we are enforcing the ceasefire." has gone by the boards.

*** "Because we are saving Iraqi lives." has gone by the boards.

*** "Because Iraq was involved in 9/11." has gone by the boards.

*** "Because Iraq is building nuclear weapons." has gone by the boards.

*** "Because Iraq is going to give WMD to terrorists." has gone by the boards.

*** Even "Because we are bringing democracy to Iraq." is going by the boards.

About the only "reasons" that haven't been totally discarded are:

1. "Because he tried to kill my Daddy." - without, of course, mentioning that "my Daddy" tried to have Saddam Hussein assassinated first.

2. "Because Iraq has just tons of oil."

and

3. "So that the Republicans can win an election and Mr. Bush can get himself re-elected."

Oh yes, and there is also "I'm going to show my Dad that I am a macho warrior." - but NO ONE believes that one.

[Unregistered]

The army states that they will not stop soldiers from speaking out about how things are going, but that comes from the high ranking officers, not the lower ranking ones who are actually running the operations. The only information the commanders who speak on tv know is what they read in update reports, and what they see in the highly control visits they make to see troops in action for short periods of time. Soldiers are often told not to make complaints in front of reporters or high ranking officials an are usually hand selected and coached on what to say to insure they say whats best for the army. An incident happened which is one of many that now has soldiers of the 1st Cavalry division2BCT 4thsquadron 9th cavalry Regiment afraid to even fire their weapons for a warning shot let alone to defend themselves at the risk of unjust punishment by command personel. Trying to justify their actions with the rules of engagement has soldiers confused as they no hestitating for just a second on whether or not to fire could indeed cost them their lives and thats the situation they are sometimes left to deal with. But about three weeks ago two soldiers stood guard at an (ECP) entry control point to the green zone checking incoming cars for unauthorized weapons, personel, or explosives trying to enter the green zone when later in the evening when of the soldiers was bitten by a stray dog when it emerged out of the darkness catching him unaware of its presence as he then drew his weapon an fired a single round killing the dog. Rules clearly state that if an animal or person attacks you then you are authorized to use deadly force but it doesnt seem so in this case says other soldiers who stated they would have also done the same thing and the soldier in question did the right thing. Any time a round is dicharged paper work is supposed to be filled out to document it and both soldiers stated they informed the OIC officer in charge who was an NCO of the actions that took place as they also stated that the OIC had instructed them to keep quiet about it and not to tell anyone probably because he didnt want to have to fill out the proper paper work and a cover up started. These soldiers obviously tried to do the right thing but later that next day the dog was found and after it was identified to be a dog that thier platoon leader had taken in to feed from time to time a minor investigation was started to find the so called culprits and the soldiers were in my opinion were left out to dry as the OIC stated he knew nothing of a dog being shot on his shift, but in the end, the soldiers did what they are trained to do and followed his orders to keep quiet and are now being punished by the command for it. Both soldiers were severly punished and the soldier who fired the round is even being disharged from service. Since an NCOs word is supposed to count higher than any E-1 through E-4, the soldiers didnt even get a fair chance to present their case. When we as soldiers are out there things happen and we deal with them and ive seen things of this nature before and it just goes to show there isnt much integrity in our military any more. Most soldiers witness things that instead of reporting they would rather act as if they never saw anything because in todays army thats the easiest way to stay out of trouble. Its every soldier for his or herself and most realize it even though its supposed to be a team. But things like this or of greater magnitutde happen frequently and are covered up and some one usually gets left out to hang. When something goes wrong some one is usually to blame an in line units it almost always starts from the lowest levels in the rank system. Re enlisting is not even an option in the minds of some soldiers who just want to do their time and get out without any trouble. But if you are not re enlisting you are deemed to be unmotivated an labled as an outcast and seperated from the rest. Though this type of behaivor is not the type of a model soldier, it rests in the minds of many who would just like to keep a low profile. Some soldiers at checkpoints have stated that they would rather let and Iraqi national through to avoid having complaints submitted against them an possible punishment even though that person may have an expired ID, unauthorized items, or even too many weapons in which under normal sercumstances they would be turned around and denied access. When it comes down to searching, most male soldiers will say they will not even attempt to search a female due to a high rise in sexual assault complaints and the armys policy is to have a female soldier do the search! But what do you do when a female soldier isnt present which is mostly the case, let the female go without being searched, or attempt the search yourself? So being in some of the situations you have to think, what would you do?

[WillsPowers]

It doesn't matter whether you're for the war or against the war.

The bottom line is that the US Government has failed to get tangible, meaningful results on prosecuting the war and securing our borders!!

That's the issue! Hawks and doves agree---WE WANT RESULTS!!!

WIN THE WAR
SECURE OUR BORDERS

NOW!!

[Bob D]

Leave it to the neo-cons to spin the truth. News media left???? Not any news I watch, FOX, CBS, NBC, ABC, AP, etc...and I get my news from all of them daily aside from others. Except for NPR they are all far right and NPR is middle of the road. My son has done 2 tours so I speak from some experience. The reality of our republican politicians standing up for our troops screaming "Support the Troops" but voting to keep them in hell for as long as it takes without the hope of reasonable time out of theater is a lie and they should all be brought down for it. It is obvious that all americans want the best for our soldiers and marines and that most americans know the troops have done the best job that they possibly could do given the tools they had but it should be equally understood by all americans that we need a way out now. Anyone who thinks we can impose our politics, morals, economic system or any other form of western culture on the people of Iraq are just fools to begin with. 9/11 had nothing to do with Iraq! Just more neo-con spin. Why didn't we put 160,000 troops into Afghanistan? Why didn't we invade Saudi Arabia where the terorists mostly came from? Wake up and smell the political coffee! It continues to brew as long as we let it. Remember: Decent is the highest form of patriotism.

[Rasputin]

It doesn't matter whether you're for the war or against the war.

The bottom line is that the US Government has failed to get tangible, meaningful results on prosecuting the war and securing our borders!!

That's the issue! Hawks and doves agree---WE WANT RESULTS!!!

WIN THE WAR
SECURE OUR BORDERS

NOW!!


Win the war? Good luck!!
Secure our borders? Possible.
Both of them? Dream on.

[BIG A]

I never thought I would live long enough to be glad I served in Vietnam
instead of with these crybabys. Didn't they enlist? By the way I was drafted
and proud to have served like by Dad and Uncles did in WWII and Korea.

[Unregistered]

I never thought I would live long enough to be glad I served in Vietnam
instead of with these crybabys. Didn't they enlist? By the way I was drafted
and proud to have served like by Dad and Uncles did in WWII and Korea.

Crybabies? Because we dare to voice our disbelief with the current farce of an administration? Then again, you probably supported LBJ all the way to the retreat.

Drafted? Hell NO, I VOLUNTEERED!!!! At least I had the balls to do my job without somebody telling me I had to do it!!

Big A, you are a big A!!! Dissent is not unpatriotic. Toeing the party line just because it is your party is treasonous IMHO.

A Retired Soldier

[Rasputin]

I never thought I would live long enough to be glad I served in Vietnam
instead of with these crybabys. Didn't they enlist? By the way I was drafted
and proud to have served like by Dad and Uncles did in WWII and Korea.


Wow. Aren't you a real man, just like Bush!

[Rasputin]

Crybabies? Because we dare to voice our disbelief with the current farce of an administration? Then again, you probably supported LBJ all the way to the retreat.

Drafted? Hell NO, I VOLUNTEERED!!!! At least I had the balls to do my job without somebody telling me I had to do it!!

Big A, you are a big A!!! Dissent is not unpatriotic. Toeing the party line just because it is your party is treasonous IMHO.

A Retired Soldier


Amen to that soldier.

[Unregistered]

whaa, whaa, whaa! you know, i am a buckeyes fan and it is like i am talking to a bunch of michigan fans and how great they were last year, well they suck real bad this year! what i am saying is that the only case that, dare i say liberals (uh oh name calling again), have is to talk about how President Bush lied and its about his dad and the oil and the... and we shoulda...whaa, whaa, whaa! all you liberals ever talk about is yesterday, well then fix it!!!! what are you going to do about today!!!! every person that reads this post knows damn well after 9/11 you all wanted someones heads, terrosism has no borders it is everywhere so where do you start killing people? well we know that terrorists like the middle east so we can start in that direction and we know that afghanistan is a breeding ground for terrorists, check! we also knew that Iraq had ties to more then one terrorist group, check so lets start in those places.

There have been several references about lies regarding WMDs and the likes well does anybody remember back in 2004 when a weapons cache full of mustard and sarin gas was found?? well just in case you do not remember or did not know i have a reference for you to research: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1653841/posts for those of you who will be to lazy or ignorant (uh oh name calling again) to read the article i will sum it up. some 500 shells of chemical weapons (mustard and sarin gasses) were found in iraq. for those of you who do not know the effects of mustard and sarin gasses, i took the initiative to look them up too! Mustard Gas: At very high concentrations, if inhaled, it causes bleeding and blistering within the respiratory system, damaging the mucous membrane and causing pulmonary edema. Blister agent exposure over more than 50% body surface area is usually fatal. Sarin: Initial symptoms following exposure to sarin are a runny nose, tightness in the chest and constriction of the pupils. Soon after, the victim has difficulty breathing and experiences nausea and drooling. As the victim continues to lose control of bodily functions, he vomits, defecates and urinates. This phase is followed by twitching and jerking. Ultimately, the victim becomes comatose and suffocates in a series of convulsive spasms. WoW! sounds like pretty serious stuff, i wonder why the media did not make a big deal about finding such a cache, oh i remember why, because it was found when the dems were flipping out about border control!

now lets get back to why we are hear blogging, soldiers whinning and complaining. my story will never change, every man and women in our military has volunteered! no one forced them into enlisting! no one forced them into the infantry or tanks or artillery... it is not the place of an active duty military member to cry to the public about their discontent with the adminstration or the war, it has nothing to do with freedom of speech it has to do with professionalism and loyalty to ones self and respective branch of service. i just read the most updated blogs and someone says i am blind and ignorant, i am showing relevant proof of everything i am speaking about unlike anyother posts i have yet to read. i am done for now as you can see i am well versed so please dont come to me with pety ignorance because it embarasses me.

USMC/SSgt

[Unregistered]

This article makes me sick and is a disgrace to those who have died and those that continue to serve our country proudly. Todays military is totaly voluntary and no one forced these little cry babies to enlist. My guess is that all they could see when they enlisted was the 20k thrown in their faces or realized that it isnt a video game! HOOAH US you ask? Kicked dogs bark! They arent in a position to question, they are in a position to execute, questioning clouds judgement and leads to mistakes which can lead to my brethern dying. Just my thoughts!

USMC/SSgt

I have read several of these blogs and there seems to be a common theme…everyone disagrees with each other. Now I am going to put my two cents worth in the pool of criticism. First, I have been to Iraq (twice) and I do not believe we are winning this so called War. Second, I don’t believe we should have ever invaded Iraq. Our leaders shifted the focus of why we went to war. I believe, had we stayed the course in Afghanistan the SOB who masterminded the killing of so many innocent civilians would be captured or dead by now. I personally am tired of the “hardcore” few that think just because someone speaks out against the war they are unpatriotic or “little cry babies.” I have served over 20 years in the military and I am still serving. I have been in three conflicts (Iraq x 2 and Panama) and yet I continue to serve. I do not think badly of anyone who voices their opinion of the war…Especially those who have deployed. It is our right under the Constitution of the United States. I don’t always have to agree with what is said and if I don’t agree I will speak up. So instead of childish name calling try and see the other person’s view. I salute the Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Airmen and wish everyone a safe return from theater.

[BORICUA]

Well, how can we continue to criticize the people that feed our families? The Soldiers deployments, hardships, and no freedom of speech are what we sworn to uphold; its part of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). That's what we sworn when we raised the right hand, why do we continue talking about what should we be doing? Our Armed Forces are an all volunteer force. The Soldiers that don't agree with policies, rules, and everything else; they've the opportunity to get out, NOW. We do not need the negativity in our forces; we've enough in our minds, ok. Please, think about upholding the memory of those Warriors before us and continue with the struggle of upholding our democracy and freedoms that other countries wish they've. God bless our Armed Forces and their families.

[The Universal Curmudgeon_guest]

Well, how can we continue to criticize the people that feed our families?If you consider that what the people who pay the bills (the government of the United States of America) is doing is wrong, they "continuing to criticize" isn't all that difficult.
The Soldiers deployments, hardships, and no freedom of speech are what we sworn to uphold; its part of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). That's what we sworn when we raised the right hand, why do we continue talking about what should we be doing?Not quite, what the soldiers and officers (and Representatives [and Senators {and Presidents}]) swore to uphold was the constitution of the United States of America.
Our Armed Forces are an all volunteer force.True. Now your point would be? What?
The Soldiers that don't agree with policies, rules, and everything else; they've the opportunity to get out, NOW.Actually they don't. According to the legal position adopted by the government of the United States of America, members of the US military have no opption but to comply with the orders of their superiors - regardless of what those orders are. That would mean that if Mr. Bush decided to order the US Army to implement "The Final Solution To The Terrorist Problem" by simply killing every Muslim in the world, the members of the US Army would have no legal grounds upon which to refuse to carry out orders to commit genocide since Mr. Bush IS their Commander-in-Chief and legally entitled to order them to kill people.
We do not need the negativity in our forces; we've enough in our minds, ok.What you "need" and what you "get" aren't necessarily the same thing.
Please, think about upholding the memory of those Warriors before us and continue with the struggle of upholding our democracy and freedoms that other countries wish they've.I have some flash news for you. Countries other than the United States of America have their own "democracy and freedoms" which they prefer to "(your) democracy and freedoms". Not only that, many countries would much prefer that the United States of America conducted its "struggle to uphold (its) democracy and freedoms" inside the United States of America rather than ignoring what is happening to the "American's democracy and freedoms" inside the United States of America in favour of thrusting proxy and Quisling governments upon other countries.
God bless our Armed Forces and their families.Absolutely no dispute on that one - once we can agree on which "God" we are talking about (or, alternatively, that it doesn't matter if you want to bestow the blessing of Osiris and I would prefer the blessing of Odin).

[Unregistered]

There have been several references about lies regarding WMDs and the likes well does anybody remember back in 2004 when a weapons cache full of mustard and sarin gas was found?? well just in case you do not remember or did not know i have a reference for you to research: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1653841/posts for those of you who will be to lazy or ignorant (uh oh name calling again) to read the article i will sum it up. some 500 shells of chemical weapons (mustard and sarin gasses) were found in iraq. USMC/SSgt

It would also do you well to do a little further research regarding this subject. If you remember correctly, these stashes of chemicals were found to have been buried since Gulf War 1. The containers were found to be severly corroded, and the chemicals deteriorating. In short, the items were unusable.

This, I do believe, discredits the claims of production of WMD, as these items were about 10 years old at the time - and had been apparently forgotten about being buried.

[Unregistered]

I don't know these soldiers who are blogging, but I know that many vets see through the sham that took us to war in Iraq. I also understand that having troops question what they are doing leads to a crisis in the chain of command, and that endangers even more lives in the field. But the crisis in command that we currently are seeing stems, in great part, from lack of honest leadership at the very top. These leaders did not go to battle themselves or offer their children for battle. If they were not willing to put themselves or their children in harms way for this, how deeply could they have believed in it? This administration has not answered so many important questions. It was only a matter of time before most Americans saw through their politics of self interest, oil, Halliburton, KB, and Blackwell. Sacrificing lives of wonderful young men and women for a war that required lying over and over again to the world created a crisis in leadership, not the questions of troops or citizens. The blame for any unecessary loss of life and disorder in the chain of command lies squarely at the feet of our president, vice president, and his cabinet, not with honest American patriots who asked why. All the tears of the families who have lost loved ones in the war in Iraq, all the troops who waited for protective armor, and all the returned vets who cannot get their lives back should shame this administration into coming clean. Then bloggers who tell the truth will be no threat.

[BORICUA]

We could argue forever about, why we Americans are in the struggle of the War against Terrorism? But, we Soldiers only like The Universal Curmudgeon guest stated “According to the legal position adopted by the government of the United States of America, members of the US military have no option but to comply with the orders of their superiors - regardless of what those orders are.” Yes, He’s correct, but he doesn’t refer about why they’re in the Armed Forces, because they decided on their own will to join the military. The oath of enlistment they you all about following orders and if we don’t go out and fight for our freedoms, Are you willing to fight in our own country? Remember that we were attack and blood was shed in our own streets by radicals that got their own believes; they believe we should not exist. They shout “Dead to America”. I’m pretty sure, you’re in peace in your house due to the Warriors that go out and protect our country from another vicious attack by radicals. Bottom line, we’re here to defend our country and if you don’t agree with it, you must deal with it. What can you do about it? You tell me, what’re you going to change? Politics will continue to be politics, but Warriors only have the warrior to the left and the right, those are people that we’ll continue to care about and we owed respect to them and their families regardless of our believes.

“The Soldier business can bring many hardships to them and
their families; but Soldiers must roll together with the current
struggle just like the Soldiers before us in order to uphold our Democracy and freedoms.”

- El Boricua

[Unregistered]

No one has the right to talk bad about Bush and his country. People who do should be shot dead and their bodies mutilated!!! He is our all might superior president and should be treated as such. Any soldier who criticizes him should be shot dead!!!!!!!! Sounds familiar huh???

JUST KIDDING

They have done it in all the wars before and it changed peoples mindset.
'

[Rasputin]

We could argue forever about, why we Americans are in the struggle of the War against Terrorism? But, we Soldiers only like The Universal Curmudgeon guest stated “According to the legal position adopted by the government of the United States of America, members of the US military have no option but to comply with the orders of their superiors - regardless of what those orders are.” Yes, He’s correct, but he doesn’t refer about why they’re in the Armed Forces, because they decided on their own will to join the military. The oath of enlistment they you all about following orders and if we don’t go out and fight for our freedoms, Are you willing to fight in our own country? Remember that we were attack and blood was shed in our own streets by radicals that got their own believes; they believe we should not exist. They shout “Dead to America”. I’m pretty sure, you’re in peace in your house due to the Warriors that go out and protect our country from another vicious attack by radicals. Bottom line, we’re here to defend our country and if you don’t agree with it, you must deal with it. What can you do about it? You tell me, what’re you going to change? Politics will continue to be politics, but Warriors only have the warrior to the left and the right, those are people that we’ll continue to care about and we owed respect to them and their families regardless of our believes.

“The Soldier business can bring many hardships to them and
their families; but Soldiers must roll together with the current
struggle just like the Soldiers before us in order to uphold our Democracy and freedoms.”

- El Boricua


You are not there to defend our country, you are there to follow orders, as you should.
Your fight in Iraq has nothing to do with those radicals who attacked us, a different story would be if you were in Afghanistan, where you should be if Bush and his henchmen had done the right thing.

You are right that I don't agree with this war, but I don't have to deal with it because in spite of Bush we still have some semblance of freedom of speech. So I will keep on disagreeing and do my best to say what I think about our dear leader.

You can beat you chest and be as patriotic as you want to be, but again, you are not fighting for my freedom, you are fighting for the right of this administration to bankrupt us and to make the rest of the world hate us even more than they do now. You are fighting in Iraq to satisfy the colossal ego and incompetence of you CIC, and that is the sad truth, wether you like it or not.

[Unregistered]

the thing that is lost in all of this discussion is the imminent attack that is looming on iran. The slow feed of “information” and the build up to justifying another occupation of another country in the region. The media feeds into politicians in general, and in the end, it doesn’t matter what party the politicians are a slave to. You have two or three politicians who have a mind of their own, and everyone thinks they are lunatics (I.e. dennis kucinich and mike gravel). Whether or not you agree with them, they stand for something that they believe in, but the difference is, they realize they are human, and can make mistakes. The conceded smug attitude of president bush is what frustrates so many. He can’t admit when he is wrong… and that’s what makes a “great” politician, spin things to your advantage, but never admit your wrong. Look at the great conservative larry craig… even when caught with your pants down, literally, never admit you’re wrong. This whole thing stinks to high heaven, and we’re just pawns. I signed up for it, so I do my duty, but I do have a mind of my own, and I am a human, and an american before I am a soldier. Another thing that is laughable to me.. This thought that some branches are tougher than others. As a medic, I will treat you all the same, you all bleed the same color.

[Unregistered]

forgot to sign my last post... so you can call me an idiot and i know who you're talking to.

jp

[Unregistered]

Wow....I am tired of seeing someone who disagrees with the war and then seeing someone call them un-patriotic, cry-baby, liberal, and so-on an so-on. Just because someone "raised their right hand", or "signed on the dotted line", or whatever colorful metaphor you can think of to describe the oath of enlistment, doesn't mean they can't have an opinion. I've been to Iraq, I'm probably going back. Guess what? I disagree with the war in Iraq. But you know what, I'm still going to do my job. Doesn't mean I have to like it!!!! I am neither a liberal or un-patriotic. My opinion stands and NO ONE can change it, regardless of rank , or years in service, or number of deployments.

Just my $.02

[tdkarmy]

Serving in the military does not mean that you give up your right to have an opinion. It does mean that you must follow the orders, regulations, and policies of the service you entered. If you choose not to, then take your chances with the outcome.
Voicing an opinion, and the ability to do so, is Consitutionally protected. Servicemembers often get "swear to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic, and to obey the orders of the President of the United States and the officers appointed over me" confused with "I am fully protected under the Frist Ammendment of the Constitution". Sorry, battle-buddies, but you're wrong.
I do think many bloggers in uniform need to apply some common sense when posting comments regarding operational information. As harmless as saying to a parent of wife that "those bombs didn't hit me" does provide a source of information that can be used to determine effects and applied in future mission planning by those trying to "hit you". Just be smart!

[Measure Man]

Voicing an opinion, and the ability to do so, is Consitutionally protected. !

...unless your opinion happens to cause your leadership to "lose confidence in your ability to lead"

Just ask Capt Gibbs.

[BORICUA]

Thank you, CPT Gibbs. You're so right.

[Measure Man]

Thank you, CPT Gibbs. You're so right.

I am not Capt. Gibbs...he was the guy who lost his job for writing an opinion editorial in Stars and Stripes...his opinion was that it was time to lift the ban on homosexuals serving openly in the military.

[Unregistered]

So troops speaking out against the war? I don't see why....we all VOLUNTEERED for duty. Yeah, it does suck that our men and women are dying out there, but don't people realize that if we do pull out of OIF and OEF, Al-qaida and the taliban will bring the fight to the US. They want us all DEAD, and they will not stop until we are....Or, we can stay there and finish the job that nearly 4,000 people have died for. Don't judge the war on a 2 minute clip you see on the news, they will never publish the good facts...Remember, we are the home of the brave, not the home of the ones that ran when times got a little tough.

A1C/USAF

[Rasputin]

So troops speaking out against the war? I don't see why....we all VOLUNTEERED for duty. Yeah, it does suck that our men and women are dying out there, but don't people realize that if we do pull out of OIF and OEF, Al-qaida and the taliban will bring the fight to the US. They want us all DEAD, and they will not stop until we are....Or, we can stay there and finish the job that nearly 4,000 people have died for. Don't judge the war on a 2 minute clip you see on the news, they will never publish the good facts...Remember, we are the home of the brave, not the home of the ones that ran when times got a little tough.

A1C/USAF


I suppose that the more than half million Iraqis dead are not "people" to you. They have died for no other reason than our dear leader decided to take revenge on Saddam for threatening his daddy.
And the media does show the good news, Petreaus before Congress, Bush speaking to selected crowds saying how well we are doing and repeating the same mantra you have mentioned: THEY WILL COME HERE AND KILL US ALL.

[Unregistered]

This article makes me sick and is a disgrace to those who have died and those that continue to serve our country proudly. Todays military is totaly voluntary and no one forced these little cry babies to enlist. My guess is that all they could see when they enlisted was the 20k thrown in their faces or realized that it isnt a video game! HOOAH US you ask? Kicked dogs bark! They arent in a position to question, they are in a position to execute, questioning clouds judgement and leads to mistakes which can lead to my brethern dying. Just my thoughts!

USMC/SSgt

i agree with this staff sergeant. a bunch of whining, and complaining. do the two or three years you enlisted for, take your bonus cash, and your gi bill and get out! i dont want to serve next to them! its discusting!
as far as saying something inteligent goes, i havent read a semi inteligent post that required and thought or research yet, except the very first post. that guys was just belittled, called old, stupid, and told to shut up! then the guy that started to insult his inteligence FAILED HIMSELF TO POST ANYTHING INSIGHTFULL AND/OR INTELLIGENT!!! WHAT IS THAT??? just sounded like another arrogant A-hole full who is of hot air!
next time you decide to boast on behalf of your intelect, in effort to put some else down, dont just leave us all with a mental set of blue balls if your soooooo educated, and inteligent....please enlighten us!
i also blame the media, hollywood,and mtv for these disgracefull service members idea's, and opinions. the media never talks about any of the accomplishments that are going on in iraq, and the post 9/11 world. its always negitive/biased press. then there are these actors and songwriters (i.e PINK with her dear mr. president song, along with various other artist)who feel the need to add their two cents on the war, as if they themselves have done ANYTHING great for our country. there poisonous songs get played on the radio stations, and mtv over, and over, and those people are admired by a lot of young soldiers. they end up hateing the war because its now cool cause 50 cent and puffy hate bush and the war, and that is all they need to form an opinion, its as far as the thought process goes. if these soldiers did deploy, its only added fuel to the little fires in they're minds, because being shot at, and seeing dead women, and children does...well, suck for a lack of a better term, and might make you question why your there in the first place if your favorite artist is Pink.
as far as that regurgitated yellow cake bs i read, are you serious? i know that whole idea is just crazy in itself, and how dare bush even suggest that saddam attempted to purchase unranium, when the disputably true fact WAS and STILL IS back by brittish intelligence and our own N.I.E.
now for my true feelings, I DONT GIVE A DAMN IF ITS TRUE OR NOT!!! IM SOOO SICK OF HEARING THAT THE WAR IS BASED ON LIES!!! i will even pretend for a moment like i agree with you people, that bush is a sick, evil human being and that the administration is totally corrupt.
THE FACTS STILL REMAIN THAT NEARLY 3,000 AMERICANS WERE MURDERD ON SEPTEMBER 11TH, WHICH IS WHAT MADE ME DECIDE TO ENLIST, AND THAT CRAZY MILITANT ISLAMIST HAVE BEEN ATTACKING US SINCE 1979 DURING THE CARTER ADMINISTRATION!!! WHAT MORE REASON DOES BUSH NEED??? ( 1979 u.s embassy in irans staff taken hostage by muslims,1982 u.s. embassy in beirut bombed by muslims, 1983 marine barracks in beirut also bombed,1985 an american killed by musslims on the italian cruis ship "achille lauro" 1986,1988, 1993 THE FIRST BOMBING AT THE WOLRD TRADE CENTER) the time line of attacks on the u.s. goes on and on up until 9/11. they are all acts of war, and how many times does it need to happen before we do something? before 9/11 i wasnt old enough to enlist. after any one of those attacks against the u.s. i wouldnt care if the cammander and chief wanted to go to war because saddam said bush's mom was a fat whore! i think that if you are taking stabs at the legality of the war, then you are just digging for reasons to not defend our country against an enemy that is relentless at trying to take american lives. it only took the twin towers to collapse and 3,000 americans dead to get our country to forget our differences and come together for all of about a month....maybe. we probably (god forbid) need another 9/11 to wake us up and get us on the same page again.

U.S. ARMY SGT.

[Unregistered]

Wow. Aren't you a real man, just like Bush!

the way you people bash vets is discusting!

[Unregistered]

i agree with this staff sergeant. a bunch of whining, and complaining. do the two or three years you enlisted for, take your bonus cash, and your gi bill and get out! i dont want to serve next to them! its discusting!
as far as saying something inteligent goes, i havent read a semi inteligent post that required and thought or research yet, except the very first post. that guys was just belittled, called old, stupid, and told to shut up! then the guy that started to insult his inteligence FAILED HIMSELF TO POST ANYTHING INSIGHTFULL AND/OR INTELLIGENT!!! WHAT IS THAT??? just sounded like another arrogant A-hole full who is of hot air!
next time you decide to boast on behalf of your intelect, in effort to put some else down, dont just leave us all with a mental set of blue balls if your soooooo educated, and inteligent....please enlighten us!
i also blame the media, hollywood,and mtv for these disgracefull service members idea's, and opinions. the media never talks about any of the accomplishments that are going on in iraq, and the post 9/11 world. its always negitive/biased press. then there are these actors and songwriters (i.e PINK with her dear mr. president song, along with various other artist)who feel the need to add their two cents on the war, as if they themselves have done ANYTHING great for our country. there poisonous songs get played on the radio stations, and mtv over, and over, and those people are admired by a lot of young soldiers. they end up hateing the war because its now cool cause 50 cent and puffy hate bush and the war, and that is all they need to form an opinion, its as far as the thought process goes. if these soldiers did deploy, its only added fuel to the little fires in they're minds, because being shot at, and seeing dead women, and children does...well, suck for a lack of a better term, and might make you question why your there in the first place if your favorite artist is Pink.
as far as that regurgitated yellow cake bs i read, are you serious? i know that whole idea is just crazy in itself, and how dare bush even suggest that saddam attempted to purchase unranium, when the disputably true fact WAS and STILL IS back by brittish intelligence and our own N.I.E.
now for my true feelings, I DONT GIVE A DAMN IF ITS TRUE OR NOT!!! IM SOOO SICK OF HEARING THAT THE WAR IS BASED ON LIES!!! i will even pretend for a moment like i agree with you people, that bush is a sick, evil human being and that the administration is totally corrupt.
THE FACTS STILL REMAIN THAT NEARLY 3,000 AMERICANS WERE MURDERD ON SEPTEMBER 11TH, WHICH IS WHAT MADE ME DECIDE TO ENLIST, AND THAT CRAZY MILITANT ISLAMIST HAVE BEEN ATTACKING US SINCE 1979 DURING THE CARTER ADMINISTRATION!!! WHAT MORE REASON DOES BUSH NEED??? ( 1979 u.s embassy in irans staff taken hostage by muslims,1982 u.s. embassy in beirut bombed by muslims, 1983 marine barracks in beirut also bombed,1985 an american killed by musslims on the italian cruis ship "achille lauro" 1986,1988, 1993 THE FIRST BOMBING AT THE WOLRD TRADE CENTER) the time line of attacks on the u.s. goes on and on up until 9/11. they are all acts of war, and how many times does it need to happen before we do something? before 9/11 i wasnt old enough to enlist. after any one of those attacks against the u.s. i wouldnt care if the cammander and chief wanted to go to war because saddam said bush's mom was a fat whore! i think that if you are taking stabs at the legality of the war, then you are just digging for reasons to not defend our country against an enemy that is relentless at trying to take american lives. it only took the twin towers to collapse and 3,000 americans dead to get our country to forget our differences and come together for all of about a month....maybe. we probably (god forbid) need another 9/11 to wake us up and get us on the same page again.

U.S. ARMY SGT.

and just to clarify something. i only read the first page of post before i posted myself. i just read the rest and there are some good post in here.... debate is good.

[Unregistered]

It would also do you well to do a little further research regarding this subject. If you remember correctly, these stashes of chemicals were found to have been buried since Gulf War 1. The containers were found to be severly corroded, and the chemicals deteriorating. In short, the items were unusable.

This, I do believe, discredits the claims of production of WMD, as these items were about 10 years old at the time - and had been apparently forgotten about being buried.

let me ask you a question and luckily for you it wont require much thought (just look above at your poorly developed rebuttle), WMDs were found but have been there since the Gulf War right? so if saddam had them and never reported them and the UN did not know about them, then it must mean that Saddam had them hidden and possibly could have more somewhere else within that forsaken hell hole or even worse could have been smuggled/hidden in iran correct? could all that be a safe assumption (we all know what happens when we assume so i better be right)?
you libs are all the same, you say show/find proof and it is provided however you cry about something else. did you read my references (i am sure that you didnt) because i am about to quote them once again, “ The Sulfur Mustard contained in artillery shells that had been stored for over 12 years, had been found by UNMOVIC to be still of high purity" (UN Report). "The shelf life of unitary (i.e., pure) sarin may be lengthened by increasing the purity of the precursor and intermediate chemicals and refining the production process," (Wikipedia). It is so old it is safe right? if there were a sandbox full of the "old chemicals" would you let your kids play in it and make sand castles, its harmless right?
The fact that these shells predated the 1st Iraq war has absolutly no barring on the fact that the finding proves Saddam was hiding these weapons. UN resolution 1441 as well as the pervious 15 or so resolutions demanded that Saddam account for ALL such wepons. No matter how much the lunitic left wants to dismiss this finding, the fact remains, along with a litany of reasons to go to war the WMD section/reason was valid (500 Shells, madhousethought.blogspot.com).
once again i have proved all my points and once again you have not. references are cited below.

USMC/SSgt


(2006). 500 Shells. Available: madhousethought.blogspot.com/2006/06/500-shells.html

(2007). Sarin Gas. Available: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin

(2006). UN Report. Available: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1653841/posts

[Unregistered]

US Army SGT --
The next time you decide to question someone's intelligence - consider locating your shift key as well as running a spell check. Instantly, you'll gain a little more credibility.

[Unregistered]

let me ask you a question and luckily for you it wont require much thought (just look above at your poorly developed rebuttle), WMDs were found but have been there since the Gulf War right? so if saddam had them and never reported them and the UN did not know about them, then it must mean that Saddam had them hidden and possibly could have more somewhere else within that forsaken hell hole or even worse could have been smuggled/hidden in iran correct? could all that be a safe assumption (we all know what happens when we assume so i better be right)?
you libs are all the same, you say show/find proof and it is provided however you cry about something else. did you read my references (i am sure that you didnt) because i am about to quote them once again, “ The Sulfur Mustard contained in artillery shells that had been stored for over 12 years, had been found by UNMOVIC to be still of high purity" (UN Report). "The shelf life of unitary (i.e., pure) sarin may be lengthened by increasing the purity of the precursor and intermediate chemicals and refining the production process," (Wikipedia). It is so old it is safe right? if there were a sandbox full of the "old chemicals" would you let your kids play in it and make sand castles, its harmless right?
The fact that these shells predated the 1st Iraq war has absolutly no barring on the fact that the finding proves Saddam was hiding these weapons. UN resolution 1441 as well as the pervious 15 or so resolutions demanded that Saddam account for ALL such wepons. No matter how much the lunitic left wants to dismiss this finding, the fact remains, along with a litany of reasons to go to war the WMD section/reason was valid (500 Shells, madhousethought.blogspot.com).
once again i have proved all my points and once again you have not. references are cited below.

USMC/SSgt


(2006). 500 Shells. Available: madhousethought.blogspot.com/2006/06/500-shells.html

(2007). Sarin Gas. Available: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin

(2006). UN Report. Available: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1653841/posts


you haven't proved shit, but you are welcome to it.

[The Universal Curmudgeon_guest]

But, we Soldiers only like The Universal Curmudgeon guest stated “According to the legal position adopted by the government of the United States of America, members of the US military have no option but to comply with the orders of their superiors - regardless of what those orders are.” Yes, He’s correct, but he doesn’t refer about why they’re in the Armed Forces, because they decided on their own will to join the military.... Remember that we were attack and blood was shed in our own streets by radicals that got their own believes; they believe we should not exist. They shout “Dead to America”.You seem to forget that the attack didn't have anything whatsoever to do with Iraq, and that the government of Iraq was one of the first to express its condolances.
I’m pretty sure, you’re in peace in your house due to the Warriors that go out and protect our country from another vicious attack by radicals.You also seem to forget that Mr. Bush's War certainly appears to be creating radicals faster than it is eliminating them.
Bottom line, we’re here to defend our country and if you don’t agree with it, you must deal with it.Defend your country from what? A bankrupt regime with no military power to speak of that never attacked America, or al-Qa'eda.

If you want to defend the United States of America against al-Qa'eda why is the government of the United States of America throwing American lives away trying to force the Iraqis to do/be what they don't want to do/be?
What can you do about it? You tell me, what’re you going to change? Politics will continue to be politics, ...And as long as the average citizen thinks that they can't do anything (like electing honest politicians) they are not even going to try to change anything. Isn't that what the people in power want?
... but Warriors only have the warrior to the left and the right, those are people that we’ll continue to care about and we owed respect to them and their families regardless of our believes."Warriors" make crappy soldiers. If you don't believe me look into the difference between a "barbarian", a "warrior", and a "soldier".

[The Universal Curmudgeon_guest]

The fact that these shells predated the 1st Iraq war has absolutly no barring on the fact that the finding proves Saddam was hiding these weapons.Nope, it proves that they were there and not that anyone knew where "there" was.
UN resolution 1441 as well as the pervious 15 or so resolutions demanded that Saddam account for ALL such wepons."I don't know where they went." IS "accounting for them".
No matter how much the lunitic left wants to dismiss this finding, the fact remains, along with a litany of reasons to go to war the WMD section/reason was valid (500 Shells, madhousethought.blogspot.com).An interesting thought. Now, since Germany now has an airforce, would that "justify" invading Germany on the grounds that Germany was in breach of the Treaty of Versailles?

You do know that UNSC 1441 specificly reserved the decision on what to do if Iraq was found to be in breach of UNSC 1441 to the UN Security Council (and that the United States of America's representative voted in favour of that provision - don't ... Oh, wait, you probably don't.
once again i have proved all my points and once again you have not.Unfortunately you have not "proven" your points. What you have done is make completely unwarranted assumptions and then claimed that those assumptions were facts.

Please try again once you have passed an elementary logic course.

[Unregistered]

you haven't proved shit, but you are welcome to it.

It's a FReeper we're talking about here - ultra-right reactionary nutjobs. They don't represent any mainstream view, civilian or military.

[downshift]

I thought I would chime in on the original post - I deployed twice, once for the invasion in 2003 and again in 2004, and it was so obvious that Iraq didn't pose a threat. Years of sanctions turned their infrastructure into a brittle shell. Their military equipment sucked, as did their training, yet we treated them as a serious threat.

This war, and all of the pain and suffering that has come with it, has been totally pointless.

[LEAR44]

Well I think big deal!, if soldiers want to voice their opinions of an idiotic war, then let them, no one has earned the right more than a us service member, as they execute their missions, they sacrifice relationships, educations, personal progress, physical, emotional, and spiritual freedoms. And this is before they risk their lives to work in a hate filled ass backwards country.

To make matters more demanding, many soldiers are part of another family which cannot be ignored be it Hispanic, black, or another segment of the population which is not being treated fairly by the American society and need their support as well.

My opinion is the American people chose the war without proper information and this is the results, now they scream for us leave. I have an idea next time anyone who demands a quick withdrawal, to go to their hair dresser/barber go get a haircut, and when a new customer walks in leave! I bet you won't be satisfied with the results.

The time to speak was before the war, I spoke out against it and was scorned as unpatriotic, I hate to be the one to say it because we all are suffering needlessly, but nearing 4000 deaths, and over 100,000 injured I hate to say it but who is sorry now.

Let the soldiers speak, and if they are stupid enough to jeopardize missions, and violate OPSEC, throw the UCMJ book at their dumb asses. If you can blog, then you can do it responsibly.

[flyah64d]

Simple solution: disconnect the internet. It is a luxury, not a necessity. They want to spew venom against their country, let them do it the old fashioned way...pencil & paper. (BTW...I'm active duty Army & have done one tour thus far.)

[Rasputin]

Simple solution: disconnect the internet. It is a luxury, not a necessity. They want to spew venom against their country, let them do it the old fashioned way...pencil & paper. (BTW...I'm active duty Army & have done one tour thus far.)


There they go again.... So anybody who criticizes this war "spews venom against their country".
You have to stop watching Fox News and its right wing nuts in denial. You may be a soldier, but that doesn't make you any more of a patriot that anybody else or the soldiers that have the honesty to speak the truth about this fiasco in Bush's name.

[Unregistered]

I am loosing my willingness to fight for this country. I do not believe that the Americans left deserves my sacrafices. I have been taught to hate by the democratic party who vilifies me.

[Unregistered]

"You may be a soldier, but that doesn't make you any more of a patriot that anybody else "

You are wrong. That is exactly what it meens.

[Unregistered]

"You may be a soldier, but that doesn't make you any more of a patriot that anybody else "

You are wrong. That is exactly what it meens.

Bullshit! I'm active duty USAF, 26 years, a SNCO. I've been at this probably a LOT longer than you. I've been to the Gulf three times. You damn better believe I've earned the right to speak my mind. This administration has failed us, failed the American people, and is setting us up for long term failure once Hillary gets elected. I also disagree with the Patriot Act and the warrant-less wiretapping of American citizens. I swore an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, not the Republican or Democrat parties.

[Unregistered]

Bullshit! I'm active duty USAF, 26 years, a SNCO. I've been at this probably a LOT longer than you. I've been to the Gulf three times. You damn better believe I've earned the right to speak my mind. This administration has failed us, failed the American people, and is setting us up for long term failure once Hillary gets elected. I also disagree with the Patriot Act and the warrant-less wiretapping of American citizens. I swore an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, not the Republican or Democrat parties.

Bravo. Unfortunately, some individuals (in & out of uniform) forget that we did NOT give up our 1st amendment rights when we enlisted. Yes, our speech is somewhat limited in certain instances, but it does NOT prohibit us from having our on opinions and thoughts.

Doing your duty makes you what you are...a soldier/sailor/airman/marine. Questioning the reasons for going to war makes you a patriot IMHO.

Blind obedience to orders makes you a fall-guy....just like the defense attempted at the Nuremburg trials and those of concentration camp guards.

[flyah64d]

First of all, I said NOTHING about political parties. Secondly, speaking negatively of your country is, IMO, "spewing venom". Third, no one is forcing anyone to live in these United States. If you don't like the leadership and the policies...move. You have that freedom. You can leave the country at any time. Finally, no one is forcing these men and women to fight a "war of lies". We have been over there for 4 years. Most terms of enlistment are 3 years. Do the math. Many enlisted AFTER the war started. So, as much as I hate to agree with a Marine, nobody was complaining when they got their $20K signing bonus, but, OH NO!, when it wasn't FREE money, they want to bitch & moan. My point was, just make them write their opinions on paper and mail them. This way they actually have to THINK about what they are going to say and who they say it to. NO immediate postings (or possibly instant regrets, as I suspect some have).

And I think ANYBODY WHO HAS SERVED IN A COMBAT ZONE IS MORE OF PATRIOT THAN ANY CIVILIAN. Supporting the military demonstrates outstanding patriotism, don't get me wrong, however, being on the front lines kind of bumps you up a few steps of the patriotic ladder (sorry folks, that's my WIFE's opinion!).

I didn't realize I had so many lines in my original post for people to read between.

[flyah64d]

I suppose that the more than half million Iraqis dead are not "people" to you. They have died for no other reason than our dear leader decided to take revenge on Saddam for threatening his daddy.
And the media does show the good news, Petreaus before Congress, Bush speaking to selected crowds saying how well we are doing and repeating the same mantra you have mentioned: THEY WILL COME HERE AND KILL US ALL.

Rasputin,
Have you served a tour in either of the war zones?

[Unregistered]

[QUOTE=flyah64d;55849]First of all, I said NOTHING about political parties. Secondly, speaking negatively of your country is, IMO, "spewing venom". Third, no one is forcing anyone to live in these United States. If you don't like the leadership and the policies...move. You have that freedom. You can leave the country at any time. Finally, no one is forcing these men and women to fight a "war of lies". We have been over there for 4 years. Most terms of enlistment are 3 years. Do the math. Many enlisted AFTER the war started. So, as much as I hate to agree with a Marine, nobody was complaining when they got their $20K signing bonus, but, OH NO!, when it wasn't FREE money, they want to bitch & moan. My point was, just make them write their opinions on paper and mail them. This way they actually have to THINK about what they are going to say and who they say it to. NO immediate postings (or possibly instant regrets, as I suspect some have).

And I think ANYBODY WHO HAS SERVED IN A COMBAT ZONE IS MORE OF PATRIOT THAN ANY CIVILIAN. Supporting the military demonstrates outstanding patriotism, don't get me wrong, however, being on the front lines kind of bumps you up a few steps of the patriotic ladder (sorry folks, that's my WIFE's opinion!).

Myr ancestors, my father, my brothers, my spouse, and myself all have served in the armed services and sometimes have had to fight to ensure our right as AMERICAN citizens to criticize the policies of our elected leadership. Let me clue you in on something...politicians are OUR servants, not the other way around. To criticize them and their policies is our RIGHT as Americans. The President, the Vice President, the Senate, the House...they are NOT America. We, the ordinary citizen, we ARE America. Seeing as I am still on active duty I won't openly criticize the Commander-in-Chief in public. But I sure as hell don't support his policies as the elected civilian President of the United States. I may have to salute and follow his lawful orders, but ultimately he will answer to my vote and to the votes of those who think as I do. And it does not matter if it's Republican or Democrat...it applies to all of the political class.

And by your own words...those people who enlisted, for whatever reason, who have served in Iraq or Afghanistan, they are patriots...even if they don't drink the Kool-aid and do criticize the policies that have sent them to war.

[flyah64d]

[QUOTE=flyah64d;55849]First of all, I said NOTHING about political parties. Secondly, speaking negatively of your country is, IMO, "spewing venom". Third, no one is forcing anyone to live in these United States. If you don't like the leadership and the policies...move. You have that freedom. You can leave the country at any time. Finally, no one is forcing these men and women to fight a "war of lies". We have been over there for 4 years. Most terms of enlistment are 3 years. Do the math. Many enlisted AFTER the war started. So, as much as I hate to agree with a Marine, nobody was complaining when they got their $20K signing bonus, but, OH NO!, when it wasn't FREE money, they want to bitch & moan. My point was, just make them write their opinions on paper and mail them. This way they actually have to THINK about what they are going to say and who they say it to. NO immediate postings (or possibly instant regrets, as I suspect some have).

And I think ANYBODY WHO HAS SERVED IN A COMBAT ZONE IS MORE OF PATRIOT THAN ANY CIVILIAN. Supporting the military demonstrates outstanding patriotism, don't get me wrong, however, being on the front lines kind of bumps you up a few steps of the patriotic ladder (sorry folks, that's my WIFE's opinion!).

Myr ancestors, my father, my brothers, my spouse, and myself all have served in the armed services and sometimes have had to fight to ensure our right as AMERICAN citizens to criticize the policies of our elected leadership. Let me clue you in on something...politicians are OUR servants, not the other way around. To criticize them and their policies is our RIGHT as Americans. The President, the Vice President, the Senate, the House...they are NOT America. We, the ordinary citizen, we ARE America. Seeing as I am still on active duty I won't openly criticize the Commander-in-Chief in public. But I sure as hell don't support his policies as the elected civilian President of the United States. I may have to salute and follow his lawful orders, but ultimately he will answer to my vote and to the votes of those who think as I do. And it does not matter if it's Republican or Democrat...it applies to all of the political class.

And by your own words...those people who enlisted, for whatever reason, who have served in Iraq or Afghanistan, they are patriots...even if they don't drink the Kool-aid and do criticize the policies that have sent them to war.

I had wanted to compliment you on your military professionalism for not "openly criticizing the Commander in Chief in public", but, you really toed the line on the next sentence.

However, a lot of your comments proved the point I wanted to make. I am neither Republican nor Democrat. I vote for the person I feel is going to do the best for our country. However, the media has put such a spin on this war, showing only bits and pieces and not giving the full assessment, that the American people have a warped view of "success" and "failure". I don't think many people felt, "Hey, we HAVE to go fight this war right now!", but truth is, we are there and we must finish what we started. It can be finished if the media (both liberal & conservative) would keep their noses out of it and let the military do their job. WWII & Vietnam didn't have 24hr news coverage and although they ended quite differently, we could achieve the outcome of the former vs. the latter if people in the US were allowed to form their own opinions and not become patsies who are so heavily influenced by movie stars or music stars. If these public figures want to do something. Find a candidate, and encourage people to vote in 2008. Like you said, these elected officials are OUR servants. And just remember. OUR servants CHOSE to go to war.

[Rasputin]

Rasputin,
Have you served a tour in either of the war zones?


I would suggest you pose the same question to Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheney, after all those are the guys who sent you or the U.S. to war, based on their extensive and credible military experiences.

I don't have to be a military, or ex, to be able to express my opinion on ANY matter.
And besides, it's none of your business. I don't put you down, I put down the incompetence and lack of moral authority of this administration. Half a million dead Iraqis should be enough proof of it, and Osama is still making videos.

[flyah64d]

I would suggest you pose the same question to Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheney, after all those are the guys who sent you or the U.S. to war, based on their extensive and credible military experiences.

I don't have to be a military, or ex, to be able to express my opinion on ANY matter.
And besides, it's none of your business. I don't put you down, I put down the incompetence and lack of moral authority of this administration. Half a million dead Iraqis should be enough proof of it, and Osama is still making videos.

I'm not putting you down. I merely posed the question, because you made a stement earlier referring to the progress being made in Iraq. It appeared as though you made it tongue-in-cheek (perhaps I misinterpreted it), so I questioned whether you were in the service to determine if you saw FIRST HAND what progress was being made. Perhaps I chose the wrong words. I should have just asked: Have you been Iraq---either civilian or military? (I shouldn't even have included Afghhanastan, becasue lets face it, apples & oranges, here.)

As I stated in my last post. The general public is getting their information from a distorted media and no one is getting the whole truth. And as far as the incompetence and lack of moral authority of this administration, we're stuck with it for the next year. We (the U.S. people) elected these people into office (not just the President, but the Senetors & Reps) and now we must deal with it. Hopefully, 2008 will produce 2 candidates where American people can feel they are voting for the better of 2 people, not the lesser of 2 evils. The country had an opportunity to make a change in 2004, and they didn't. See what happens in 13 months.

[Rasputin]

I'm not putting you down. I merely posed the question, because you made a stement earlier referring to the progress being made in Iraq. It appeared as though you made it tongue-in-cheek (perhaps I misinterpreted it), so I questioned whether you were in the service to determine if you saw FIRST HAND what progress was being made. Perhaps I chose the wrong words. I should have just asked: Have you been Iraq---either civilian or military? (I shouldn't even have included Afghhanastan, becasue lets face it, apples & oranges, here.)

As I stated in my last post. The general public is getting their information from a distorted media and no one is getting the whole truth. And as far as the incompetence and lack of moral authority of this administration, we're stuck with it for the next year. We (the U.S. people) elected these people into office (not just the President, but the Senetors & Reps) and now we must deal with it. Hopefully, 2008 will produce 2 candidates where American people can feel they are voting for the better of 2 people, not the lesser of 2 evils. The country had an opportunity to make a change in 2004, and they didn't. See what happens in 13 months.


Do you really think that you have to have served in Iraq in order to know how things are going?
Distorted media? If by now you still think that the media is to blame for the way the majority of the country sees this war then you really need an urgent touch of reality.

I know soldiers who have served and think as I do, and they went into this fiasco with the best of intentions, out of a sense of duty after our government convinced them that Iraq was to blame for 9/11. Of course now that we are there the terrorists are also, which was not the case before the invasion. But our dear leader didn;'t put too much thought into that fact, it would have defeated his purpose in life: get Saddam at any cost, with any lies and any amount of lives.

My prior comments about the "PROGRESS" in Iraq, if you can call that progress, were made not tongue in cheek, were made with the utter conviction that we are there for one reason: Bush's megalomaniac and deluded policy. No tongue in cheed about that.

When Peatraus was asked if we are winning in Iraq I believe his answer was: I don't know. I would hardly call that "progress".

[Unregistered]

The average grunt or groundpounder isn't qualified to know how well (or how poorly) the war is going. Their job is/was to do what they were told, within a very small circle. They have no clue about, and have no credibility regarding, the big picture.

Support our troops, but when a young PFC comes home and tells us that we have to pull out of Iraq because our troops are being killed, then we should brand that person what he/she is: a coward.

[Unregistered]

"Do you really think that you have to have served in Iraq in order to know how things are going?"

Nope. Many of the people who have served in Iraq STILL don't know how things are going.

"Distorted media? If by now you still think that the media is to blame for the way the majority of the country sees this war then you really need an urgent touch of reality."

You're busted. You're a fraud. The American people ARE getting their false information about Iraq from the ANTI-AMERICAN news media. I can say that easily, because there is no other source of this information.

The few sources of valid information showing that we're pulling ahead are being drowned out by the ANTI-AMERICAN news media.

This is the classic battle between good and evil. If you can't support the American standard of good, then you're evil. Stand by for the inevitable consequences.

[Unregistered]

"I know soldiers who have served and think as I do, and they went into this fiasco with the best of intentions, out of a sense of duty after our government convinced them that Iraq was to blame for 9/11. Of course now that we are there the terrorists are also, which was not the case before the invasion. But our dear leader didn;'t put too much thought into that fact, it would have defeated his purpose in life: get Saddam at any cost, with any lies and any amount of lives. "

Then your friends (those "soldiers") are idiots. I'm tempted to say you're simply lying about having friends, let alone friends who've been to Iraq.

If ANYONE believes that "our governmnet convinced them that Iraq was to blame for 9/11", they're retards. No such statement was EVER made.

You people have to learn that the average ground-pounder grunt has NO CLUE about the big picture. They are NOT educated in ANY away about international affairs or military strategy, and typically have no clue about the context of their presence over there. Of course you ANTI-AMERICANs don't know what you're talking about anyway, but that doesn't stop you from being LOUD about it.

[Rasputin]

"Do you really think that you have to have served in Iraq in order to know how things are going?"

Nope. Many of the people who have served in Iraq STILL don't know how things are going.

"Distorted media? If by now you still think that the media is to blame for the way the majority of the country sees this war then you really need an urgent touch of reality."

You're busted. You're a fraud. The American people ARE getting their false information about Iraq from the ANTI-AMERICAN news media. I can say that easily, because there is no other source of this information.

The few sources of valid information showing that we're pulling ahead are being drowned out by the ANTI-AMERICAN news media.

This is the classic battle between good and evil. If you can't support the American standard of good, then you're evil. Stand by for the inevitable consequences.


You forgot to say "communist" american media. But don't worry, with people like you in these blogs we are slowly but surely seeing the truth about this war.
If the invasion of Iraq is the "standard" of american good, then I am glad to be evil.
Thank you for your enlightening comments, outdone only by that bastion of truth and patriotism: Fox News.

[The Universal Curmudgeon_guest]

"You may be a soldier, but that doesn't make you any more of a patriot that anybody else "

You are wrong. That is exactly what it meens.Does it now?

And being a soldier for longer means that you are even more patriotic, does it?

And all of those nice Germans who were in the German military between 1939 and 1945 who worked at those lovely rest camps (like Bergen-Belsen, Auchwitz, and Daschau) were "patriots" - right?

A true patriot defends what their country stands for - which isn't necessarily the same thing as their country's politicians tell them to do.

BTW, how does it feel to have a President and Vice-President who aren't "patriots"?

[ringjamesa]

I'm not sure that is entirely accurate. As far as I know, you have to subscribe in order to log in. At least that's how it used to be.

[MACHINE666]

Wow. Seven pages of pointless bickering and calling one another a doo-doo head without making any real progress!

Let's put things on a slightly different slant here - chances are it will get shot down like an F-4 over Vietnam by this tough crowd, but I'd like to think there are some of us that haven't forgotten what the original post was about: the ability for us to post blogs about our experiences in the military.

Now myself, I fly a desk for the Air Force. My combat experience conists of Grand Theft Auto on Playstation and cushy deployments to the sandbox. I'm not even going to try to scream about how "hard core" or gung-ho or whatever it is you guys beat your chests over, but I will say this: everyone has an opinion and most of them don't count for squat. Just because yours is different doesn't make it any less valid. Just different. Unless someone is giving away OPSEC measures, then who cares what someone writes on their blog? Myself, I'd rather use my blog for creative writing purposes without having to worry about Uncle Sam peeking over my shoulder, just to make sure it's Air Force friendly and meets the P.C. eyeball test. The last thing I want to write about is the B.S. I gotta tolerate while doing the job.

As for what determines "patriotism" - if you pay your taxes, vote, and are a law abiding citizen, that should be good enough. Anyone who wants to join the military or peace corps shouldn't have to face a barrage of insults like what is going on here simply because THEY ARE the boots on the ground, giving them the street cred most people don't have. But hey kids it's all good if yah wanna continue the in-fighting since it makes for some pretty good laughs!!


:D :D :D :D :D

[Unregistered]

I feel sorry for those of you who have been so brainwashed that you are unable to think for yourself. I don't believe that you should ever question the orders given to you but who the hell has the right to tell me that I can't question the reason? Some of you need to realize that there is a line between freedom of speech and failure to do my job.

[ringjamesa]

While I sort of agree with UC that being in the military doesn't mean that you are more patriotic than someone who isn't, I also believe that joining the Armed Forces does show a comittment to this country that a lot of people don't have. The exception would be someone who is not qualified for the military for one of many reasons. Because someone is qualified and doesn't join doesn't mean they are unpatriotic but they certianly don't have the same level of comittment. There are otherways that people serve their country but few require the dedication and sacrifice that is required to be in the military. So while people who have never served and will never serve, they may be patriots but they may not. I would say that almost everyone that joins the military is a patriot-the only reason I say almost is because recently some gang members have been joining just to recruit more members and I don't consider that patriotic. Even people who join for reasons other than patriotism-and that is almost everyone who joins, are showing patriotism by joining.
That make any sense?
Oh and should they be able to blog whatever they want? Sure. Are they? No. Are they aware that they are not allowed to? Certianly. Should they be punished for violating rules that they are well aware of?...........................That is the question isn't it? I would have to say a reluctant yes. Just because you don't agree with a rule and believe it unfair is not an excuse to violate it and escape punishment.

[Unregistered]

"I know soldiers who have served and think as I do, and they went into this fiasco with the best of intentions, out of a sense of duty after our government convinced them that Iraq was to blame for 9/11. Of course now that we are there the terrorists are also, which was not the case before the invasion. But our dear leader didn;'t put too much thought into that fact, it would have defeated his purpose in life: get Saddam at any cost, with any lies and any amount of lives. "

Then your friends (those "soldiers") are idiots. I'm tempted to say you're simply lying about having friends, let alone friends who've been to Iraq.

If ANYONE believes that "our governmnet convinced them that Iraq was to blame for 9/11", they're retards. No such statement was EVER made.

You people have to learn that the average ground-pounder grunt has NO CLUE about the big picture. They are NOT educated in ANY away about international affairs or military strategy, and typically have no clue about the context of their presence over there. Of course you ANTI-AMERICANs don't know what you're talking about anyway, but that doesn't stop you from being LOUD about it.



What an IMBECILE!!

[Ahrimangate]

This is why we are upset and why we need to elect Ron Paul:
go to : http://www.alexa.com/data/details/tr...onpaul2008.com

on the top of the chart you will see www.ronpaul2008.com in the next blocks over type in your candidates website e.g.. johnmccain.com mittromney.com joinrudy2008.com hillaryclinton.com then hit the orange COMPARE button.. and I smile

[Unregistered]

There have been several references about lies regarding WMDs and the likes well does anybody remember back in 2004 when a weapons cache full of mustard and sarin gas was found?? well just in case you do not remember or did not know i have a reference for you to research: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1653841/posts for those of you who will be to lazy or ignorant (uh oh name calling again) to read the article i will sum it up. some 500 shells of chemical weapons (mustard and sarin gasses) were found in iraq.

USMC/SSgt

Sgt:

You moron. I was so "ignorant and lazy," that I went to this site and had to answer the question I had within myself, "Why did I never hear of this story of found WMD when it occurred?" Well, the actual story was over chemical arty shells that were empty. In other words...not containing serine or mustard gas. Furthermore, I couldn't help but notice that the site you gave a link for is not CNN, MSNBC or even FOX News. It was for a site called "Free.Republic.com." 'Never heard of it. However, I did find this headline on the homepage of this so-called news source "Free Republic.com:"

"Welcome to Free Republic!
Free Republic is the premier online gathering place for independent, grass-roots conservatism on the web. We're working to roll back decades of governmental largesse, to root out political fraud and corruption, and to champion causes which further conservatism in America. And we always have fun doing it. Hoo-yah! "

So, I'm sure glad you gave us a source that is completely "unbiased and objective." Furthermore, feel free to continue getting all of your source information on current events, history, U.S. Foreign Policy, etc. from web sites like these. However, if you do...can you do me a favor? DON'T VOTE.

Respectfully,
Anonymous Viper Pilot
(So don't even start with the "You Unpatriotic Liberal," crap with me...)

[Unregistered]

Have you noticed that all of those morons who complain about the war get killed by the terrorists? LOL. While those of us who support the war and not moan and whine, are still alive? Interesting.

[Unregistered]

This is why we are upset and why we need to elect Ron Paul:
go to : http://www.alexa.com/data/details/tr...onpaul2008.com

on the top of the chart you will see www.ronpaul2008.com in the next blocks over type in your candidates website e.g.. johnmccain.com mittromney.com joinrudy2008.com hillaryclinton.com then hit the orange COMPARE button.. and I smile

Ron Paul's a queer

[Measure Man]

Have you noticed that all of those morons who complain about the war get killed by the terrorists? LOL. While those of us who support the war and not moan and whine, are still alive? Interesting.

Are you saying that the 4,000 some odd who've been killed in Iraq are whiney morons?

[Sabotage]

Rush and Shaun are great patrots!!!!!
Im reaaalll proud to be a patriot just like themmmm!!!!!!

Each person that joins a branch of service has the right to speak their mind. If you are for or aginst the war you should speak your mind.

The problems comes in when the privates prove to be smarter than the officer and SNCO's

[Unregistered]

Have you noticed that all of those morons who complain about the war get killed by the terrorists? LOL. While those of us who support the war and not moan and whine, are still alive? Interesting.


I suppose you can provide documentation about your deranged delusions.

[Unregistered]

Have you noticed that all of those morons who complain about the war get killed by the terrorists? LOL. While those of us who support the war and not moan and whine, are still alive? Interesting.


Yes, you are right. All those killed by terrorists were "phoney soldiers", like your boss Rush indicated.

[Unregistered]

Sgt:

You moron. I was so "ignorant and lazy," that I went to this site and had to answer the question I had within myself, "Why did I never hear of this story of found WMD when it occurred?" Well, the actual story was over chemical arty shells that were empty. In other words...not containing serine or mustard gas. Furthermore, I couldn't help but notice that the site you gave a link for is not CNN, MSNBC or even FOX News. It was for a site called "Free.Republic.com." 'Never heard of it. However, I did find this headline on the homepage of this so-called news source "Free Republic.com:"

"Welcome to Free Republic!
Free Republic is the premier online gathering place for independent, grass-roots conservatism on the web. We're working to roll back decades of governmental largesse, to root out political fraud and corruption, and to champion causes which further conservatism in America. And we always have fun doing it. Hoo-yah! "

So, I'm sure glad you gave us a source that is completely "unbiased and objective." Furthermore, feel free to continue getting all of your source information on current events, history, U.S. Foreign Policy, etc. from web sites like these. However, if you do...can you do me a favor? DON'T VOTE.

Respectfully,
Anonymous Viper Pilot
(So don't even start with the "You Unpatriotic Liberal," crap with me...)



Viper, well done, you researched my references, I am glad and thank you. Also Id like to thank you for taking the opportunity to bring to light the free republic, I hadn’t put as much effort into researching the reference outside of the material to prove my point (of which it did) but for the sake of biasness I will no longer use them as a reference, fair enough? However not to be outdone, I did delve deeper into my talking points and here is what I came up with; in August 06, Sean Hannity was speaking to Ted Lewis from the Global Exchange and is quoted saying:
“Wait a minute Ted. Ted, there were 500 canisters, 500 of them that we found there and you may want to put your liberal head in the sand and ignore it because you've got a political agenda that doesn't allow you to see the truth, but I don't live my life in such a way.”(foxnews.com).
Yet another quote/interview from Sean Hannity talking to Whoopi Goldberg in June 06:
HANNITY: We just got Zarqawi. We just found out tonight — this very night — that we have WMDs
GOLDBERG: It's not enough. I want the guy that put this gig together.
HANNITY: But so is the president. You don't think the president wants him? You don't think he would feel vindicated now that we have got WMD?
GOLDBERG: He may. He may feel vindicated. But, you know, he's going to face a lot of questions of how convenient it is that the WMD just showed up. I'm just saying it.
HANNITY: Well, first of all, it didn't just show up. Apparently, some of it has been there for awhile.
Looking deeper I found an article once again from foxnews.com titled WMD Found in Iraq (catchy title huh?), written by Father John Morris. The article talks about the found weapons cache. Below is a little excerpt that I feel has a lot of impact:
Whether the decision to enter Iraq in March of 2003 was a good one has little to do with the good work our soldiers are doing right now. Those who say we should leave now because we should never have entered in the first place are acting out of emotion or for political gain, but certainly not based on sound principle. Packing up and leaving from one day to the next, as some are requesting, would be an irresponsible and selfish act of cowardice on the part of the allied forces. Our present objectives of providing stability, freedom, and democracy to the region are good ones. They will take a very long time to achieve.
The new findings of weapons of mass destruction can teach us many things. We now know more about Saddam's diabolic regime. We question again the efficiency of the many years of United Nations' weapon inspections.

There you have it Viper; I supported my original post with a more credible reference. You make the point that they were artillery shells, let me ask you, do they still go boom and cause a lot of hate and discontent? Do you know the kill and causality radius of basic high explosive artillery shell? How about max range on a point target? Just in case you do not, max range is over 18 miles and has a kill radius of 50 meters and a causality radius of 150 meters. Those are statistics of a high explosive shell, exploding on impact. Those figures would only increase in an air cluster shell full of deadly gasses. So please let us not dumb down the effects of an “artillery shell.”
Viper, I have a respect for you after only one post, and that says a lot. With that being said, please come to me with supportive facts and references so you do not lose that respect and if you are a pilot then I do expect more from you. Becaue I have an early respect I havent resorted to name calling just yet. One last thing off topic, in the Marines, Sgt and SSgt are two very different ranks. Rah!

USMC/SSgt

Your best friend, your worst enemy.

[Unregistered]

Viper, I have a respect for you after only one post, and that says a lot. With that being said, please come to me with supportive facts and references so you do not lose that respect and if you are a pilot then I do expect more from you. Becaue I have an early respect I havent resorted to name calling just yet. One last thing off topic, in the Marines, Sgt and SSgt are two very different ranks. Rah!

USMC/SSgt

Your best friend, your worst enemy.

SSgt: (Corrected)

Dude… I have to admit: I feel like a jackass now. I wish I could somehow go back and change how I worded that. However, you obviously took the moral high ground and offered a more mature response to my rather immature rant. For that, you have my sincerest apology.

Perhaps, I was trying to show a frustration that I have, not so much in the American Government, but rather the American Public. After all, a freely elected government is merely a reflection of its voting populous. Agree?

I am frustrated with a population who does not only openly seek the truth. They claim they have it after they hear someone on either television or radio say so. BTW, that media personality they listen to has no idea what the hell they are talking about either. Even though I tend to be more of a Liberal (However, ‘still a Christian…and a damn proud American!!!), I tend to listen to Conservative media more than I do Liberal. One should always be open to all points of view. However, Conservative talk has only reaffirmed my Left Wing political viewpoints, in many respects.

As an example, I was listening to Rush Limbaugh about a year ago…’bout the time N. Korea had its Taep’O-Dong II theater ballistic missile on the launch pad for tests. Now, Limbaugh suggested on his program, that the U.S. send in a BUFF (B-52) that day to launch an air strike and destroy the complex—and he was serious. Either that or I did not get the joke. However, what struck me was his lack of regard for the 1.5 million man army and very sophisticated military that was sitting at the ready North of the DMZ.

“Hawks and Doves”…’Seems like that is what defines people’s point of view these days when it comes to U.S. foreign policy. Do I think that we would win in a military showdown with N. Korea? Absolutely. Do I think that we and coalition nations would pay a terrible price for that victory? Even more so. Am I against taking part in a military showdown with Kim Jong Il? No. But, not until the time is right and we have exhausted all other avenues for peace…to include diplomacy and economic aid. As a fellow service member, you must be familiar with the phrase, “A true warrior prays for peace.” I just have trouble hearing people in the conservative media beat the drums of war without thinking about what they are really doing: SWAYING A POPULATION WHO IS NOT SMART ENOUGH TO GO DO THEIR OWN HOMEWORK ON THE SUBJECT.

People should be reading more news, periodicals and listening more than they talk—and not just listen to their own side of the argument be repeated to them. After all, to a Conservative listener, isn’t listening to Sean Hannity and other Right Wing personalities telling you something that you already know? American’s should grab the TV remote and change the channel from “American Idol,” to “The History Channel,” “Frontline,” and other factual programming to educate themselves on the subject. Unfortunately, this is only wishful thinking. Furthermore, I will go and fight. I signed on the dotted line to join the Air Force during the Clinton years and I am still proud to serve…even in conflicts that I do not completely agree with. That is what makes this military so great. We serve the American taxpayer no matter what. Even if we could only wish that they make smart decisions in the voting booth.

In conclusion, you have earned my respect as well. I hope we could continue this joust on a friendly level. Best of luck to you in the USMC and stay safe. If you see a JDAM come crashing down on some enemy position in your vicinity…it might have been me pickling that mo-fo off the jet. You never know.

v/r
Captain Anonymous
“Or as you would say, ‘Viper’”

[The Universal Curmudgeon_guest]

You make the point that they were artillery shells, let me ask you, do they still go boom and cause a lot of hate and discontent? Do you know the kill and causality radius of basic high explosive artillery shell? How about max range on a point target? Just in case you do not, max range is over 18 miles and has a kill radius of 50 meters and a causality radius of 150 meters. Those are statistics of a high explosive shell, exploding on impact. Those figures would only increase in an air cluster shell full of deadly gasses. So please let us not dumb down the effects of an “artillery shell.”Are you 100% sure of those figures?

What is the range of an artillery shell that is so corroded that you can't get it into the breech?

Do 105s and 155s have the same range?

Does an American artillery piece have the same range as a Russian one of equivalent caliber?

What is the casualty radius of an HE artillery shell that doesn't have a bursting charge?

Believe me, if the US/UK forces had ACTUALLY found WMD then there would be a traveling road show touring the US right now with them on display. For some reason there doesn't seem to be any such traveling exhibit. Can you think of any reason why?

I can.

[Unregistered]

[QUOTE=The Universal Curmudgeon_guest;56702]Are you 100% sure of those figures?

What is the range of an artillery shell that is so corroded that you can't get it into the breech?

Do 105s and 155s have the same range?

Does an American artillery piece have the same range as a Russian one of equivalent caliber?

What is the casualty radius of an HE artillery shell that doesn't have a bursting charge?

Believe me, if the US/UK forces had ACTUALLY found WMD then there would be a traveling road show touring the US right now with them on display. For some reason there doesn't seem to be any such traveling exhibit. Can you think of any reason why?


road show or not they were found. was it the MOAB (mother of all bombs) or FOAB (father of all bombs)? no it was not, but that is what the liberal America wants, the simple fact that WMDs (regardless of thier potency) were found is what is important therefore justifying any and all actions taken from then on. who is to say that a MOAB or FOAB isnt barried in the sand somewhere or even worse collecting dust in iran or syria?
dang near everybody who had a vote that counted voted to go to war with whomever we started shooting at but now that the country is war weary the libs are jumping ship, when does the hopping around from issue to issue stop? the libs continue to come to the table without a solid plan on any issue that would work one hundered percent! every lib running for president except for osama obama has admitted that if they were president the war would not end on thier first four year watch as Commander in Chief; every Conservative has said they will continue to stay the course and fight (maybe change the strategy around). A good plan executed today is better than a perfect plan executed at some indefinite point in the future."
- General George Patton Jr. if every liberal presidental candidate came into the coming election with such a bad attitude towards achieving victory then how would they ever hope to be elected president? hell, we all know that john edwards isnt going to get elected but yet he is still running wasting our tax dollars, he has to know something that we dont know.
elected liberal officials bash our military on a daily basis calling me and my men murders, rapists, uneducated (im sure you can think of some more names)...this is dispickable and they want to be trusted to lead me and my brave warriors? the wind will be taken away from every American citizen if a democrat is elected president, it will be a sad day. war is ugly, people die; we shed enough blood on American soil on 9/11, if we kill little kid terrorist now we wont have to kill them ten years from now after they bore more little kid terrostists into this world and we have to kill all of them too!
you know, you still have not brought or supported any ligitimate arguements yet, can you?? as always i have supported everything i said. you my foe are a moron, idiot, liberal, commi and whatever other derogitory name you can think of of which i have no respect for. i am proud yet i am ashamed all the same that my brothers and sisters in arms are dying for your freedoms because the likes of you and your kind will be the down fall of this proud nation. below are some quotes from the greatest man to serve our country that was not a Marine, General George S. Patton Jr. I hope they motivate you as much as the motivate me. rah!

USMC/SSgt

"Sure, we want to go home. We want this war over with. The quickest way to get it over with is to go get the bastards who started it. The quicker they are whipped, the quicker we can go home. The shortest way home is through Berlin and Tokyo. And when we get to Berlin, I am personally going to shoot that paper hanging son-of-a-bitch Hitler. Just like I'd shoot a snake!"
- General George S. Patton, Jr
(addressing his troops before Operation Overlord, June 5, 1944)

If I win I can't be stopped! If I lose I shall be dead."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

[Unregistered]

the wind will be taken away from every American citizen if a democrat is elected president, it will be a sad day. war is ugly, people die; we shed enough blood on American soil on 9/11, if we kill little kid terrorist now we wont have to kill them ten years from now after they bore more little kid terrostists into this world and we have to kill all of them too!

SSgt

I’m not gonna lie, but if a Republican gets elected…I would be indescribably shocked. And, that’s not the lib in me talking either. I think many Republicans would agree as well…that they are certainly the underdog in this election. It’s a shame too, someone like Hillary in office just because of a knee-jerk reaction to this administration. I think anyone who would say that a Republican has a chance in the polls is merely wishfully thinking. Dunno…I could be totally wrong.

Viper

[The Universal Curmudgeon_guest]

Are you 100% sure of those figures?

What is the range of an artillery shell that is so corroded that you can't get it into the breech?

Do 105s and 155s have the same range?

Does an American artillery piece have the same range as a Russian one of equivalent caliber?

What is the casualty radius of an HE artillery shell that doesn't have a bursting charge?

Believe me, if the US/UK forces had ACTUALLY found WMD then there would be a traveling road show touring the US right now with them on display. For some reason there doesn't seem to be any such traveling exhibit. Can you think of any reason why?

I see that you have absolutely no intention of even attempting to answer any of those questions.

road show or not they were found.Nope, you were told that things that may well have potentially been useful as WMD at one point in time were found. As I said, if Mr. Bush had anything that PROVED what he said then that evidence would be on display for the whole world to see.

It isn't.

Haven't you ever wondered why?
... who is to say that a MOAB or FOAB isnt barried in the sand somewhere or even worse collecting dust in iran or syria?And who is to say that Osama bin Laden hasn't had a haircut and shave and is living at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue?
... dang near everybody who had a vote that counted voted to go to war with whomever we started shooting at ...I wouldn't be all that proud of mass ignorance and panic if I were you.
but now that the country is war weary the libs are jumping ship, when does the hopping around from issue to issue stop?For some reason the "conservatives" seem to be jumping ship too. Or haven't you noticed the rash of resignations lately?

I suspect that "this jumping from issue to issue" will stop as soon as the politicians figure out what the voters want them to be saying. Once the politicians know where the voters want the government to stand, you can be 100% certain that the politicians will come out and forthrightly announce that that has been their position all along.
the libs continue to come to the table without a solid plan on any issue that would work one hundered percent!Since the only plan that has a chance of winning involves the government of the United States of America admitting that it screwed up, accepting total responsibility for the chaos it created in Iraq, and paying 100% of the reconstruction costs without being assured of American companies receiving a dime in either profits or oil revenue, the odds that ANY American politician would have anything to do with such a plan prior to the 2008 elections are slightly lower than the odds on me being elected Virgin Queen of Samoa.
every lib running for president except for osama obama has admitted that if they were president the war would not end on thier first four year watch as Commander in Chief; every Conservative has said they will continue to stay the course and fight (maybe change the strategy around). A good plan executed today is better than a perfect plan executed at some indefinite point in the future."Indeed, no American politician wants to be seen as the person who is responsible for destroying a whole country simply because "He tried to kill my Daddy.". About the only politician who stands a reasonable chance of succeeding in that is Mr. Bush - and that is only because he can stall the process to buy time (with American lives) until his term of office expires.
if every liberal presidental candidate came into the coming election with such a bad attitude towards achieving victory then how would they ever hope to be elected president? hell, we all know that john edwards isnt going to get elected but yet he is still running wasting our tax dollars, he has to know something that we dont know.I'm sure that American elections would be much less expensive if the only candidate for President were to be the "correct" one.
elected liberal officials bash our military on a daily basis calling me and my men murders, rapists, uneducated (im sure you can think of some more names)...this is dispickable and they want to be trusted to lead me and my brave warriors?I won't comment on the poor spelling, grammar, punctuation, or sentence construction here.
the wind will be taken away from every American citizen if a democrat is elected president, it will be a sad day.The simple solution is to shoot all the Democrats. Once that is done then free and fair elections will always produce the correct result - won't they?
war is ugly, people die; we shed enough blood on American soil on 9/11, if we kill little kid terrorist now we wont have to kill them ten years from now after they bore more little kid terrostists into this world and we have to kill all of them too!Fewer than 3,000 people died on 9/11. Not all of them were Americans. Almost 4,000 Americans have died in Iraq. Iraq didn't have anything to do with 9/11. Someplace in excess of 50,000 Iraqis have died as a result of 9/11. Iraq didn't have anything to do with 9/11. There are more al-Qa'eda in Iraq now then there were on 9/11. Iraq didn't have any al-Qa'eda in it (other than the al-Qa'eda training camps that were operating openly in the American protected zones and which were receiving funding, supplies, and weapons from America's Kurdish allies).

On the other hand, simply killing anyone who isn't an American on the basis that they might possibly have the potential to become a terrorist does offer a certain attractiveness. After all, if EVERYONE is the enemy then you can do anything you feel like doing to anyone without any fear of repercussions.
you know, you still have not brought or supported any ligitimate arguements yet, can you??Yes I have, I just get tired of repeating them for the deaf.
as always i have supported everything i said. you my foe are a moron, idiot, liberal, commi and whatever other derogitory name you can think of of which i have no respect for.You are quite as entitled to your opinion as I am not to take it seriously.
i am proud yet i am ashamed all the same that my brothers and sisters in arms are dying for your freedoms because the likes of you and your kind will be the down fall of this proud nation.Staff, you and yours are not dying for "my freedoms" you and yours are dying because Mr. Bush wants to prove to his father that he is a macho warrior.
below are some quotes from the greatest man to serve our country that was not a Marine, General George S. Patton Jr. I hope they motivate you as much as the motivate me. rah!

USMC/SSgt

"Sure, we want to go home. We want this war over with. The quickest way to get it over with is to go get the bastards who started it. The quicker they are whipped, the quicker we can go home. The shortest way home is through Berlin and Tokyo. And when we get to Berlin, I am personally going to shoot that paper hanging son-of-a-bitch Hitler. Just like I'd shoot a snake!"
- General George S. Patton, Jr
(addressing his troops before Operation Overlord, June 5, 1944) I hate to tell you this, but General Patton never addressed his troops before Operation Overlord, June 5, 1944 - for the simple reason that FUSAG (General Patton's command) was a dummy unit and didn't have anything to do with Operation Overlord.

BTW, "the bastards who started it" on 9/11 are not, and never have been, in Iraq. They were in Afghanistan and are now (most likely) living quite comfortably in Pakistan under the protection of the Pakistani ICI which has always armed, trained, equipped, and supported al-Qa'eda


If I win I can't be stopped! If I lose I shall be dead."
- General George S. Patton, JrSomething he said just before he went out and interfered with mortarmen who actually knew what they were doing in order to get some publicity photos. You do know that General Patton had more troops than his attackers when he made this bombastic statement and that the major credit for repulsing the attack has to go to the USN whose cruisers and destroyers literally blasted the German tanks into scrap metal, don't you?

[Unregistered]

Good question...SSgt, what does Osama Obama mean? Is it because he is a dem or a muslim? Just curious. I'll take no answer as you literally not having an answer so open up and let us know...

Viper

[GRANTWDBY]

To Viper:
"Osama Obama" is a quote from Sen. Edward "I dove repeatedly" Kennedy, D-MA, who may or may not have been in his cups, God Bless His Soul.
To Universal Curmudgeon, or the persons at the DNC who give him his marching orders: regarding WMD's in Iraq, can you say, "Chemical Ali"? Can you say "Halabja"?
To all the defeatists, the reflexive America-Bad people, the self-haters, and the namby-pamby's: now that were there, why don't you want to win the war? Is it because your puny political party is invested in defeat?

[Rasputin]

To Viper:
"Osama Obama" is a quote from Sen. Edward "I dove repeatedly" Kennedy, D-MA, who may or may not have been in his cups, God Bless His Soul.
To Universal Curmudgeon, or the persons at the DNC who give him his marching orders: regarding WMD's in Iraq, can you say, "Chemical Ali"? Can you say "Halabja"?
To all the defeatists, the reflexive America-Bad people, the self-haters, and the namby-pamby's: now that were there, why don't you want to win the war? Is it because your puny political party is invested in defeat?


Or is it because the Christian-Family Values-God Fearing-Patriotic- We Fight Them There so They Don't Come Here to Rape Your Wife and Kill Your Children-Hypocritical-Support the Troops- Republican Party is heavily invested in Halliburton and Co.?

[GRANTWDBY]

There you go again, Rasputin.
Can you say, "Halabja?"
Accepting your premise, as it were, for the purpose of reductio ad absurdum:
The democrats want military defeat for a political victory, but the Republicans want military victory for financial gain. I'll take the military victory even if you and your party don't want it.

[Rasputin]

There you go again, Rasputin.
Can you say, "Halabja?"
Accepting your premise, as it were, for the purpose of reductio ad absurdum:
The democrats want military defeat for a political victory, but the Republicans want military victory for financial gain. I'll take the military victory even if you and your party don't want it.


Apparently you don't listen to your dear leader, King Bush, who says that if we lose the war the terrorists will be here in our streets after the muslim invasion. In that case there will be no political parties or politicians who can gain ANYTHING from a defeat, consequentely your premise is as absurd as your little and pathetic president.
Of course you ASSUME that we want defeat, which is another delusion used in order to keep the war going and our soldiers killed, and as you aptly admit: you want to keep on killing for financial gain, which is the Christian thing to do, thank God.
Can you say "Halliburton"? I'm sure you can, c'mon, give it a try.

[GRANTWDBY]

Rasputin,
It was your premise. Can you read? Can you say, "Reductio"?
I don't need to assume you want defeat. Withdrawing before victory is nuanced defeat. Your party wants to bug out ASAP, just like in SE Asia 30+ years ago.
The terrorists were here. They killed us on our soil. They've killed us on foreign soil. Why do I need to remind you? Why do you want it to happen again? Self-hatred? Nihilism? Actually, I'm not that interested.
Have you said, "Halabja?" Do you understand what that might portend for us? Or do you have special knowledge that allows you, above others, to discount that threat?
The Republicans want military victory. Period. (Only Socialists or Communists want those who produce to donate their production to the state. It fits with their idea of slave labor.)
If you don't like Christians, either, you have even more in common with The Party Line, and with the jihadis.

[GRANTWDBY]

Rasputin,
Halabja.

[Rasputin]

Rasputin,
It was your premise. Can you read? Can you say, "Reductio"?
I don't need to assume you want defeat. Withdrawing before victory is nuanced defeat. Your party wants to bug out ASAP, just like in SE Asia 30+ years ago.
The terrorists were here. They killed us on our soil. They've killed us on foreign soil. Why do I need to remind you? Why do you want it to happen again? Self-hatred? Nihilism? Actually, I'm not that interested.
Have you said, "Halabja?" Do you understand what that might portend for us? Or do you have special knowledge that allows you, above others, to discount that threat?
The Republicans want military victory. Period. (Only Socialists or Communists want those who produce to donate their production to the state. It fits with their idea of slave labor.)
If you don't like Christians, either, you have even more in common with The Party Line, and with the jihadis.



I am at a loss for an answer to your trite and tired mantra. So I'm going to make a nucelar device in my kitchen and sent it to the Communist Party in Spain, all you have to do is give me your address and the rest will take care of itself. What do you think?
Sorry I can't be more accommodating, your ancient brain could not digest anything else.

[GRANTWDBY]

Rasputin,
At your kitchen sink, you are in the right place to apply the experimental remedy for your Bush Derangement Syndrome, or BDS. (We've been over this before.) And, you've experimented on yoursef before.
Solicitude for others, if truly genuine, is an important early step on The Right Path.
Good luck w'that.

[Rasputin]

Rasputin,
At your kitchen sink, you are in the right place to apply the experimental remedy for your Bush Derangement Syndrome, or BDS. (We've been over this before.) And, you've experimented on yoursef before.
Solicitude for others, if truly genuine, is an important early step on The Right Path.
Good luck w'that.

In fact you are quite right.
My kitchen sink has a garbage disposal and that's where your famous BDS went, although in your case i would dispense with the D.
Be sure that when you open your mouth, in this case your keyboard, something that resembles intelligence comes out.

[GRANTWDBY]

Rasputin,
Halabja.

[The Universal Curmudgeon_guest]

Halabja.Lessons Learned (U.S. Marine Corps) - (FMFRP 3-203 Appendix B, p. 99)

[Rasputin]

Rasputin,
Halabja.

I can say it, but the real question is: Was it before or after Rumsfeld went to Iraq and shook hands with Saddam? Does he still have the receipts?
I assume that's the Halabja you are so eager to mention at every turn.

[GRANTWDBY]

Rasputin,
You're scaring me. So it was Big D's fault a murderous, adventurous regime used WMDs on its own citizens? Will it be my fault (since I don't see things according to your peculiar prism) if, God forbid, another Islamo-fascist plot should succeed in assaulting one of our cities with WMDs?
I am not sure at this point that BDS quite describes your condition.

[Rasputin]

Rasputin,
You're scaring me. So it was Big D's fault a murderous, adventurous regime used WMDs on its own citizens? Will it be my fault (since I don't see things according to your peculiar prism) if, God forbid, another Islamo-fascist plot should succeed in assaulting one of our cities with WMDs?
I am not sure at this point that BDS quite describes your condition.

Calm down, don't be scared, daddy Bush will protect you.
All the chemical weapons we sold to Saddam have been long rendered useless. Gee, what a crybaby you are, but if you promise not to be afraid of the Islamo-Fascists I promise to tone down my rehtoric. Deal?

[Rasputin]

Rasputin,
You're scaring me. So it was Big D's fault a murderous, adventurous regime used WMDs on its own citizens? Will it be my fault (since I don't see things according to your peculiar prism) if, God forbid, another Islamo-fascist plot should succeed in assaulting one of our cities with WMDs?
I am not sure at this point that BDS quite describes your condition.


One question, I forgot what BDS meant, was it: "Bush Dissembling Society"? I bet I it is.

[TominNH_guest]

This article makes me sick and is a disgrace to those who have died and those that continue to serve our country proudly. Todays military is totaly voluntary and no one forced these little cry babies to enlist. My guess is that all they could see when they enlisted was the 20k thrown in their faces or realized that it isnt a video game! HOOAH US you ask? Kicked dogs bark! They arent in a position to question, they are in a position to execute, questioning clouds judgement and leads to mistakes which can lead to my brethern dying. Just my thoughts!

USMC/SSgt

The troops currently serving in our military deserve our support, admiration, and respect. The overwhelming majority are doing their duty, doing their best to accomplish the missions given to them. They are to be applauded.

Having said that most sincerely, i must also say that many of them have given the lives and their bodies to accomplish missions which was preplanned long before Bush ever took office and which was based on repeated lies!! One example is that Tyler Drumheller, former CIA chief of covert operations -Europe has reported, publically and unequivecally, that Bush, Cheney and Rice were all briefed in September 2002 by George Tenet, that Iraq did NOT have a WMDcapacity!! And we, the patriotic citzens of this fine country, were NEVER told about that.

I think history is not going to be kind to those involved in this decision to send 4000 BRAVE soldeirs to their deaths in a mission based on complete lies.!! Shame on you Mr. President!!

[Rasputin]

The troops currently serving in our military deserve our support, admiration, and respect. The overwhelming majority are doing their duty, doing their best to accomplish the missions given to them. They are to be applauded.

Having said that most sincerely, i must also say that many of them have given the lives and their bodies to accomplish missions which was preplanned long before Bush ever took office and which was based on repeated lies!! One example is that Tyler Drumheller, former CIA chief of covert operations -Europe has reported, publically and unequivecally, that Bush, Cheney and Rice were all briefed in September 2002 by George Tenet, that Iraq did NOT have a WMDcapacity!! And we, the patriotic citzens of this fine country, were NEVER told about that.

I think history is not going to be kind to those involved in this decision to send 4000 BRAVE soldeirs to their deaths in a mission based on complete lies.!! Shame on you Mr. President!!


Are you implying, in your subversive post, that our dear leader is a liar?

For the last few months he has been telling us that Iran represents WWIII, but after the NIE report that contradicts his demented agenda, he simply states that actually the report validates his comments. Talk about spinning, he should join O"Reilly on Fox News.
Others on the right, like Ambassador Bolton, say that the report is "suspect", because he doesn't like, of course. The drums of war with Iran will keep on drumming no matter what the facts are, and facts are something that this president see as "inconvenient truths".

Bush is a pathological liar, I know that because I see him moving his lips.