AEF---two hit

[Measure Man]

Do you all in AF...think this concept is working?

Does it meet the mission?

Is it fair?

[Shrike]

Do you all in AF...think this concept is working?

Does it meet the mission?

Is it fair?

It seems fair for my career field, especially since they've cracked down on a few of the slackers who had received medical waivers for dubious problems. Some of the more blatant offenders were told that if their waivers continued, they'd be forcibly retrained or denied re-enlistment. Within two months of that, many of them miraculously were cured of their maladies. :eek:

EDIT 18 SEP (In the above paragraph, I don't mean to disparage people with legitimate medical conditions; hell, my wife's one of them. I'm talking about people whose AEF window rolls around and suddenly they need knee surgery, or their back is troubling them, so they get medically disqualified. A month later they're playing volleyball or flag football. Those are the ones who are shirking their duty.)

I'd like to see one change - volunteering. As it stands, if someone volunteers for a deployment outside of their scheduled AEF window, it doesn't count as their deployment. So they're still vulnerable to get snagged when their normal window comes around. I think this discourages volunteers, but I guess it's easier then having to adjust the schedules, shifting others into windows vacated by someone who volunteered.

[technomage1]

Wish I was in an AEF. Pretty much all of CE is on 6 month downrange, 12 month dwell periods. A 4 month tour would be nice.

[BigBaze]

I was on 2 AEFS. Being from an aircraft maintenance squadron, it is hard to deploy as anything other than TCN...so I took that job..4 month tour. It wasn't that bad, and since I was a SF augmentee I ended up working with them, running convoys, and got to participate ina lot of the training exercises i.e. the shoot house, M9/M16 competition etc...4 months just kind of drags on...I can only imagine what it is like for the people who go their for a year and more...my second 6 month deployment was good too...it is hard being away but it really is what you make of it..a good chance to get in the gym or study your PFE etc

[THELADYKT]

AEF only works well in career fields that are a) fully manned and b) aren't constantly grabbed to do "in lieu of" deployments. The career field I just left was getting hit quite a bit for that in lieu of stuff and also being told that they were going to have to do 1 year deployments (or more) for "consistancy" purposes which is bull. I think it was because the big wigs who had to be in country longer didnt feel like changing staffs every 4-6 months.

And I agree with Shrike. Why would you volunteer (esp if it is to fill a shortage caused by a last minute waiver person) when you are still stuck in your original bucket too.

[FGO]

EDIT 18 SEP (In the above paragraph, I don't mean to disparage people with legitimate medical conditions; hell, my wife's one of them. I'm talking about people whose AEF window rolls around and suddenly they need knee surgery, or their back is troubling them, so they get medically disqualified. A month later they're playing volleyball or flag football. Those are the ones who are shirking their duty.)



You know how bad it's gotten with tagging people to go regardless of their personal issues? I worked with a guy last year--a Logistics Readiness Officer with 16 years on active duty. He had two family members in the Exceptional Family Member Program, meaning they had issues that limited where/when he could go anywhere. It used to be that was a pretty good guarantee that you wouldn't get deployed...but not anymore. They changed the rules of the program to where it really doesn't have any teeth anymore--it doesn't protect you from deployments. They told him either take the 365 day deployment to Afghanistan, or take the 7 day option. His family would have literally destroyed itself if he took the deployment, so he got out. 16 years in the AF and he had to leave without anything to show for it (in terms of money for retirement). Now that's just sad, and wrong!!!

[gletAF]

Hey everyone, i just signed into this and felt i would start with this topic. I have been in the AF 11 years and have been to a few bases (4) and less than 20 or so TDY's. When i was in for 3 years, I crossed trained into special duty. So after 7 years, i returned to my primary AFSC, spending most of my time out of it. I never deployed until then, but knew it was my time.

When the first AEF came up, i was a 3rd alt to go. The first guy got orders, and the second was a screw up, so I knew I was going. It was in a part of my job that i didn't do. In fact, it wasnt even part of my job when i was in it before. But i was happy to go, and Iraq was the place to go. WHen the next rotation came up, i wanted to go, but knew that i probally wouldn't. About 3 weeks before the RNLT date, i ws told i am "deploying" again. I say it like that because it is in the states, and on CED orders, but still a AEF rotation. The thing is it is not even in my AFSC. I am not complaining by far, trust me.

My point it this - The AEF is both good and bad. We all know that commanders can still pick who they want to go, good or bad. And that people still know how to get out of it. Not jus tby real reasons, but since i am now single, i know i was picked over the person with the family. I am n ot saying it is because it was harder for them to go, they have faith in me doing the job.

The good part, which is why i am for it, is that any AMN can work their lives around it, and should. Even if the same person goes everytime, you have a better idea of when you cant plan a wedding, a vacation, etc. It brings a little more stable life for families and for planning.....

.. But i still have faith in our service, so it might not always be the point

[technomage1]

You know how bad it's gotten with tagging people to go regardless of their personal issues? I worked with a guy last year--a Logistics Readiness Officer with 16 years on active duty. He had two family members in the Exceptional Family Member Program, meaning they had issues that limited where/when he could go anywhere. It used to be that was a pretty good guarantee that you wouldn't get deployed...but not anymore. They changed the rules of the program to where it really doesn't have any teeth anymore--it doesn't protect you from deployments. They told him either take the 365 day deployment to Afghanistan, or take the 7 day option. His family would have literally destroyed itself if he took the deployment, so he got out. 16 years in the AF and he had to leave without anything to show for it (in terms of money for retirement). Now that's just sad, and wrong!!!

Sad? Sad is someone getting away without pulling their weight deployment wise for 16 years. If you have some sort of temporary issue I understand, but long term issues that prevent you from doing your job - and deployments are your job - should be a one way ticket to civilian life. The only thing the AF screwed up with this guy is taking so long to get rid of him.

Lest I sound too harsh, realize that when someone doesn't go on a deployment, that deployment doesn't go away. Someone else has to pull it, someone else with their own problems and their own life. It isn't fair to everyone else who has to cover for someone like that to keep him in uniform.

[Shrike]

You know how bad it's gotten with tagging people to go regardless of their personal issues? I worked with a guy last year--a Logistics Readiness Officer with 16 years on active duty. He had two family members in the Exceptional Family Member Program, meaning they had issues that limited where/when he could go anywhere. It used to be that was a pretty good guarantee that you wouldn't get deployed...but not anymore. They changed the rules of the program to where it really doesn't have any teeth anymore--it doesn't protect you from deployments. They told him either take the 365 day deployment to Afghanistan, or take the 7 day option. His family would have literally destroyed itself if he took the deployment, so he got out. 16 years in the AF and he had to leave without anything to show for it (in terms of money for retirement). Now that's just sad, and wrong!!!

As sympathetic as I am to those with personal issues, I have to agree with technomage on this one. If you permanently can't deploy, then the military isn't for you. Temporary deployment waivers for medical/humanitarian reasons are one thing; expecting a permanent deployment exemption is another thing entirely. If someone's family situation is such that being deployed would cause the family to destroy itself, as you said, then that person really has no business being in the military.

And just for the record, I'm speaking as someone who has deployed three times in my career solely due to the primary person being unable to deploy because of personal reasons.

[FGO]

I've been around the AF long enough to remember a time that the AF actually tried to take care of your family...they actually cared about your family, but not anymore. I saw the recent article in the AF Times about budget cutbacks that have happened and will probably happen this year for Family Support Centers, Libraries, etc. Add to that the fact they neutered the EFMP, and they're even talking about cutting back fitness center hours, and it becomes very clear that when the money's tight, the people don't matter (remember the people versus mission trade-off you may or may not have heard about in PME?)

I guess what gets me is that you take an experienced guy with 16 years in, who's had family problems for about 4 years (NOT 16 years), and ultimately the AF tells him either deploy and ruin your family, or get out with no benefits. That's not a choice! Who, in their right mind, would pick the deployment, unless they didn't give a #$%# about the welfare of their family? 16 year of service to his country, the least the AF could have done is involuntarily separated him and given him a check for full separation pay. But no, that would be an extra $120,000 that could have been better spent padding some over-inflated contract somewhere!!!

I've got a wife and 4 young daughters, but I would tell anyone coming in the AF today to NOT get married, because with the deployment tempo today, you wouldn't get to see much of them, especially the children growing up (and you can't get back that time lost with your kids...). :mad:

[technomage1]

guess what gets me is that you take an experienced guy with 16 years in, who's had family problems for about 4 years (NOT 16 years), and ultimately the AF tells him either deploy and ruin your family, or get out with no benefits. That's not a choice! Who, in their right mind, would pick the deployment, unless they didn't give a #$%# about the welfare of their family? 16 year of service to his country, the least the AF could have done is involuntarily separated him and given him a check for full separation pay. But no, that would be an extra $120,000 that could have been better spent padding some over-inflated contract somewhere!!!

I've got a wife and 4 young daughters, but I would tell anyone coming in the AF today to NOT get married, because with the deployment tempo today, you wouldn't get to see much of them, especially the children growing up (and you can't get back that time lost with your kids...). :mad:

You're letting your sympathy for this guy cloud your judgement on this issue. I feel for him too, but I also feel for the people who've had to replace him over the last 4 years and would have to replace him over the next 4 until he hits his 20. Can you look all of those people (8, if you're talking about the 20 month AEF cycle) in the eye and tell them they have to go because he won't? Can you look at the person who has been deploying that gets force shaped out because he's in - which is not unrealistic because I know logistics has been hit hard in that area.

As to the choice he made, why should the AF pay him to get out? He's healthy and physically capable of deploying. Now, maybe the deployment would have ruined his family, maybe it wouldn't have. I don't know the specifics of the situation. However, we all have our issues. I've had happen to me or happen to people in my unit the following:
1) Long term girlfriend/boyfriend leaves due to high deployment tempo.
2) Spouse w/or w/out children fails to pick up returning member from deployment. Member gets home to find it empty w/divorce papers on the kitchen counter. I say w/or w/out because this has happened to two differnent people.
3) Member's parent dies, member deploys the next month as scheduled.
4) Member is deployed to Iraq for 6 months - recalled after 3 and force shaped.

The big difference - this happened to enlisted, except for the last one. The only choice we're given is go, retire if eligible, or go AWOL. Given that, the 7 day option sounds pretty tame in terms of consequences. I am not trying to make this an officer vs. enlisted posting - but do you see where I'm coming from now?

[THELADYKT]

As sympathetic as I am to those with personal issues, I have to agree with technomage on this one. If you permanently can't deploy, then the military isn't for you. Temporary deployment waivers for medical/humanitarian reasons are one thing; expecting a permanent deployment exemption is another thing entirely. If someone's family situation is such that being deployed would cause the family to destroy itself, as you said, then that person really has no business being in the military.

And just for the record, I'm speaking as someone who has deployed three times in my career solely due to the primary person being unable to deploy because of personal reasons.


Agreed. Same thing with people on permanent medical profiles, IE cant deploy OR be stationed overseas. If the condition was military related, give them a medical retirement and out the door. Allowing this person to stay in the service does several things. 1) prevents someone else from promotion because they are holding onto that slot 2) makes everyone else in the career field deploy or get assignments more because that is 1 less person in the rotation. How some people are allowed to stay and others go is beyond me. I've seen a person at one base get a quadruple bypass and be allowed to stay in and not MEB's and at another base, the hospital tries to MEB people for stupid crap like allergies. If you are on a profile for more than 1 year for something that is NOT going to improve, Bye Bye. JMHO

[THELADYKT]

You know how bad it's gotten with tagging people to go regardless of their personal issues? I worked with a guy last year--a Logistics Readiness Officer with 16 years on active duty. He had two family members in the Exceptional Family Member Program, meaning they had issues that limited where/when he could go anywhere. It used to be that was a pretty good guarantee that you wouldn't get deployed...but not anymore. They changed the rules of the program to where it really doesn't have any teeth anymore--it doesn't protect you from deployments. They told him either take the 365 day deployment to Afghanistan, or take the 7 day option. His family would have literally destroyed itself if he took the deployment, so he got out. 16 years in the AF and he had to leave without anything to show for it (in terms of money for retirement). Now that's just sad, and wrong!!!

EFMP was never designed to stop people from deploying. I know. I have an EFMP child. You can still pull remotes and deployments. Its meant to ensure that your family member is not sent somewhere they cannot get services, not the military member. This was one of the reasons my husband and I chose to no longer be joint military. He got out after my eldest sons diagnosis. I stayed till retirement, then he rejoined and I will follow him until his retirement. EFMP was always meant to give you a SHORT amount of time away from deployment or assignments to get a plan in place. Same with family care plans. After that you are fair game. Sounds to me that he didn't do that. An officer with 16 years??? She should be at least a Capt and probably a Major. If I knew how things worked as a Sgt (at the time, yes a Sgt) then that officer should have known too. Sorry. In today's ops tempo, its only fair, go or get out, 6 years or 16 years.

[ChiefZeke]

Everyone raised their hand and swore to protect and defend the Constitution.

Nowhere were you asked about your family; either go or get out.

I had 27+ years in with over half of that overseas; PCS and TDY. It got very tiresome listening to the excuses as to why "I can't go".