Backtalk: Don’t call this a battle uniform

[CommunityEditor]

The first time I heard about the airman battle uniform program, there was a glimmer of hope that the new uniform would be the answer to extensive after-market modifications of the current uniform.

The ABU was advertised as functional, updated and low-maintenance compared to the battle dress uniform. It just turned out not to be true.

If it was the intention of the Air Force to make a uniform that was distinctive and could easily be worn on casual Fridays at the office, they have succeeded. But, to call this an airman battle uniform is a fallacy.

For quite some time, airmen in the rescue, special tactics, TACP and security forces fields have modified their uniforms to make them more functional, but those are for field use only and never allowed in garrison.

BDUs are altered by putting the breast pockets on the sleeves and the waist pockets on the chest. In addition, Velcro goes all over the uniform for name tags, rank, blood type or glint tape. But those modifications were denied by in designing the ABU.

When it comes to being updated, here is another example of the program falling short.

The tiger-striped pattern was developed during the Vietnam War by the South Vietnamese Special Forces and adopted by American special operators and various aircrews. The original pattern was very good against the naked eye, but was dropped when it was discovered that the black stripes made the wearer easy to see with night-vision devices.

Some other good ideas were ignored, too.

Elbow and knee pad pockets are a huge leap forward in comfort compared to the old strap-on pads we’ve been using for years. It doesn’t matter if you’re loading bombs or on patrol, knee pads make life a little better.

Also, anyone who has ever been firing Air Force Qualification Course and had a hot 5.56mm casing drop down their neck can see why a closable collar should have been a no-brainer addition to the new uniform. In the Middle East, this type of collar would help against the friction caused by the body armor that everyone wears.

Also, why change the boots and T-shirts?

The current regulations allow for brown and black T-shirts with the BDU. Both could have remained to be worn with the ABU.

And if the currently issued tan/black boots were left as the authorized foot wear, the Air Force would have saved thousands of dollars, because they are already in the supply system. Plus, several companies make them, allowing people to buy their favorite type of boot, based on their own foot structure and job. As mentioned in the July 7, Air Force Times, the black boots could be for the maintainers and the suede for all others.

The only issue that is correct about the new uniform is the ease of maintenance; it is a true wash-and-wear uniform. I applaud the Air Force for not making airmen starch the ABU. Had that order not been given, it was only a matter of time before someone wanted it heavily starched and suddenly we’re all back to the old ways of doing things.

In conclusion, we have ended up with a uniform that is neither functional nor updated, but is low-maintenance.

This new uniform should have been designed around the needs of those who actually go outside the wire or work the flightline, not those who work in air conditioning.


Article: http://www.airforcetimes.com/community/opinion/airforce_backtalk_abus_072108/

[VFFSSGT]

The ABU has been and continues to be a waste of time and money. Whoever received the bullet, award, and/or promotion for this so called better uniform should have all benefits of such revoked and pay restitution to the Air Force for the blatant misuse and waste of money.

[smarg]

The ABU has been and continues to be a waste of time and money. Whoever received the bullet, award, and/or promotion for this so called better uniform should have all benefits of such revoked and pay restitution to the Air Force for the blatant misuse and waste of money.

Fighter pilots, who had no clue what was needed on the ground, along with their E-9 yes-men, approved it.

What else would you expect?

[schwag_guest]

And nothing beats having then Sec Roche wear an ABU Tent...I mean uniform out to meet n greet the troops to show off the d@mn thing! Good Grief Charlie Brown!

[4Runner]

Amen to all, New uniform is a waste. Focus should be on getting the pilots to wear thier uniform correctly. Sleeves pushed up, flight cap crunched down in back (when worn), t-shirts of what ever color strikes them and finally the un-authorized call sign name tags. Give me a break, Im waiting on the other shoe to drop and we have some accountability on the 0-6 & below.

[MrMiracle]

It seems like nothing can get done until everyone has had a chance to stick their thumb in the pie. Why didn't we use the changes that TACP and SF make to their uniforms? Simple: no one would be able to take credit (bullets) for the already well-established ideas. Instead, the idea got passed around and everyone with a weak performance report that year said, "that looks good, but I want to add this little bit."

It has the stink of legacy about it as well. "I was the guy who changed the uniform" or "I was the guy who got us this new plane". Whatever ends up on my tombstone, I hope it reflects something other than a desperate need to be remembered.

[BadHairCut]

The first time I heard about the airman battle uniform program, there was a glimmer of hope that the new uniform would be the answer to extensive after-market modifications of the current uniform.

The ABU was advertised as functional, updated and low-maintenance compared to the battle dress uniform. It just turned out not to be true.

If it was the intention of the Air Force to make a uniform that was distinctive and could easily be worn on casual Fridays at the office, they have succeeded. But, to call this an airman battle uniform is a fallacy.

For quite some time, airmen in the rescue, special tactics, TACP and security forces fields have modified their uniforms to make them more functional, but those are for field use only and never allowed in garrison.

BDUs are altered by putting the breast pockets on the sleeves and the waist pockets on the chest. In addition, Velcro goes all over the uniform for name tags, rank, blood type or glint tape. But those modifications were denied by in designing the ABU.

When it comes to being updated, here is another example of the program falling short.

The tiger-striped pattern was developed during the Vietnam War by the South Vietnamese Special Forces and adopted by American special operators and various aircrews. The original pattern was very good against the naked eye, but was dropped when it was discovered that the black stripes made the wearer easy to see with night-vision devices.

Some other good ideas were ignored, too.

Elbow and knee pad pockets are a huge leap forward in comfort compared to the old strap-on pads we’ve been using for years. It doesn’t matter if you’re loading bombs or on patrol, knee pads make life a little better.

Also, anyone who has ever been firing Air Force Qualification Course and had a hot 5.56mm casing drop down their neck can see why a closable collar should have been a no-brainer addition to the new uniform. In the Middle East, this type of collar would help against the friction caused by the body armor that everyone wears.

Also, why change the boots and T-shirts?

The current regulations allow for brown and black T-shirts with the BDU. Both could have remained to be worn with the ABU.

And if the currently issued tan/black boots were left as the authorized foot wear, the Air Force would have saved thousands of dollars, because they are already in the supply system. Plus, several companies make them, allowing people to buy their favorite type of boot, based on their own foot structure and job. As mentioned in the July 7, Air Force Times, the black boots could be for the maintainers and the suede for all others.

The only issue that is correct about the new uniform is the ease of maintenance; it is a true wash-and-wear uniform. I applaud the Air Force for not making airmen starch the ABU. Had that order not been given, it was only a matter of time before someone wanted it heavily starched and suddenly we’re all back to the old ways of doing things.

In conclusion, we have ended up with a uniform that is neither functional nor updated, but is low-maintenance.

This new uniform should have been designed around the needs of those who actually go outside the wire or work the flightline, not those who work in air conditioning.


Article: http://www.airforcetimes.com/community/opinion/airforce_backtalk_abus_072108/

Not mention this uniform, when worn, is as hot as Hades. The temps here lately haven't even topped 70F, but in the ABU, sweat is pouring down my back. I can't image what the poor folks downrange or other truly hot locations are going through in this thing. The extra interior fabric and pockets don’t help much, either.

[Gunjink]

Amen to all, New uniform is a waste. Focus should be on getting the pilots to wear thier uniform correctly. Sleeves pushed up, flight cap crunched down in back (when worn), t-shirts of what ever color strikes them and finally the un-authorized call sign name tags. Give me a break, Im waiting on the other shoe to drop and we have some accountability on the 0-6 & below.

Hey now...I am a fighter pilot and I have been the most vocal champion of getting you guys a better uniform than the ABU. I am on your side. As for our crunched hats...just let us be please. Don't be a hater.

[BadHairCut]

I have been the most vocal champion of getting you guys a better uniform than the ABU. .

You guys? You mean you don't wear an ABU/BDU, even on non-flying days?:o

[Gunjink]

You guys? You mean you don't wear an ABU/BDU, even on non-flying days?:o

Nope. Like it or not...pilots wear flight suits day in and day out. As an example, I flew four times this week and need to be ready to fly on any day at near moments notice. But, I won't try to justify me wearing my flightsuit. If it were up to me, I would let everyone wear flightsuits if it would make non-fliers happy. As for the ABU, are you saying that because I wear a flight suit that I should not stick up for those wearing the ABU as a primary uniform? Then, maybe I should keep my mouth shut and let you deal with it. :mad:

[schwag_guest]

Nope. Like it or not...pilots wear flight suits day in and day out. As an example, I flew four times this week and need to be ready to fly on any day at near moments notice. But, I won't try to justify me wearing my flightsuit. If it were up to me, I would let everyone wear flightsuits if it would make non-fliers happy. As for the ABU, are you saying that because I wear a flight suit that I should not stick up for those wearing the ABU as a primary uniform? Then, maybe I should keep my mouth shut and let you deal with it. :mad:

HAHAHA!

Not laughing at the fliers or the non-fliers. Let's just all agree the ABU sucks, and needs a dramatic overhaul, and be done with this nonsense!

[warr1or]

Mostly at 4Runner - who the hell cares what pilots wear? It has always been that way, and will always be that way.

Plus, I look at it this way, flying is f'ing dangerous. I have to laugh at all the guys who hate on pilots and flightsuits, because NEWSFLASH: we are in the Air Force and it should be no suprise that life revolves around the pilots because without them we would be in the Army. You guys gotta chill out and get hung up on more important things.

I've been wearing the ABU for a month now, and I despise it for several reasons, most already mentioned, some not:

1. It is hot as hell, compared to my summer weight BDU's. I've been wearing the BDU's on especially hot days. I don't know how the guys in the desert are handling it.

2. The pants/pants pockets. I have thick legs, and to get a size that fits no matter what the pockets are so tight I can barely fit keys in them. Never a problem with the BDU which has bigger, roomier pockets. I've also noticed the crotch rides up when sitting.

3. As mentioned, the fact that we're supposed to go out and buy all desert tan t-shirts...ludicrous. What the hell am I going to do with all the stuff I already have...especially the brown...not to mentional all of the black.

4. All of these rules against having the shields and patches on the uniform...plus not having unit logos on t-shirts..it's idiotic. It's like being on a sports team, but being told you don't have a mascot and they don't want you to celebrate any of that heritage...sigh.

I don't know when it became taboo to have morale. and I don't think it's pilots making these decisions...it's the stuck up, nerd-ass, prick office-r's that work their way up from being that finance LT who liked to yell at Airmen for stupid stuff to get off - to a General who is political and so far distanced from the real world that they can't make logical decisions. Surround a person like that with a bunch of yes men who could suck the silver off an eagle and it's a dangerous combo.

Too many higher ups have lost their integrity and their abilities to make solid, common sense decisions.

[CrustySMSgt]

Hey now...I am a fighter pilot and I have been the most vocal champion of getting you guys a better uniform than the ABU. I am on your side. As for our crunched hats...just let us be please. Don't be a hater.

Sir,
Thank you for your support... however your failure to wear your uniform properly has my Airmen questioning why it is THEY can't "ranger roll" their BDU/ABU caps, because the AFI changed to specifically prohibit doing so... yet this is just another order aircrew members don't have to follow... along with rolling up their sleeves improperly... not to mention what would happen if, just for fun, I decided to show up with a "morale patch" on my ABUs.

What y'all do is pretty damn kick ass... but as long as you think that gives you the right to ignore the same uniform instructions the rest of us have to follow... it does lose you a bit of respect.

[CrustySMSgt]

Nope. Like it or not...pilots wear flight suits day in and day out. As an example, I flew four times this week and need to be ready to fly on any day at near moments notice. But, I won't try to justify me wearing my flightsuit. If it were up to me, I would let everyone wear flightsuits if it would make non-fliers happy. As for the ABU, are you saying that because I wear a flight suit that I should not stick up for those wearing the ABU as a primary uniform? Then, maybe I should keep my mouth shut and let you deal with it. :mad:


Unfortunatley this is just another example of the "we don't really have to follow the rules" attitude. I was assigned to the TALCE/Contingency Response WIng for 3 years... and most the many aircrew members assiged wore their flight suits every day... and they weren't even in flying billets! And of course when they left, their flight suits were trashed... so we had to divert scarce unit funds to outfit them in brand new flight suits... since they wore out the ones they shouldn't have been wearing anyway.

Personally, I could care less about any of the issues... change the rules and allow all of it... but until the rules are changed, you should have to follow them... because doing any less, IMHO, makes it pretty hard for you to discipline your Airmen when they break the rules. When the day comes that you have to issue an Article 15 for viloating Article 92 of the UCMJ to someone in the unit you command, and they ask you, "but sir, what about your daliy violation of the same arcticle?" what will your answer be?

As far as "shutting up and letting us deal with it," at some point you will command enlisted Airmen (if you don't already), and I have no doubt you would continue to advocate on their behalf. While we may not see eye-to-eye, from reading your posts, I can tell you do actually care... and for that I thank you.

[4Runner]

Mostly at 4Runner - who the hell cares what pilots wear? It has always been that way, and will always be that way.


Too many higher ups have lost their integrity and their abilities to make solid, common sense decisions.

Well,that doesn’t mean its right. This may be a minor issue to most but it huge on the flying side of the base. Bottom line, it’s a leadership issue. What really makes it hard is when most of the FGO’s & Grp/CC’s emulate this blatant disregard for standards. This only re-enforces the perceived double standard among our jr enlisted. This “Cowboy” attitude will be carried with them until they are the decision makers. Then what?

Bottom line...Officers and NCO lead by example. This doesn’t matter if they fly a desk or a jet. The rules apply to all of us. When you fix the little things, the big issues will fall into place.

[MACHINE666]

What I like is how some of you people still want to iron the damn things even though you're specifically not supposed to!

:D :D :D :D :D

It seems that so many people have forgotten is that this GWOT can happen anywhere, especially in our own backyards, and the ABU is suited better to blend in with the terrain in the Middle East, versus let's say...Ramstein Germany or Kunsan Korea. What our senior leaders have done in their grand wisdom, have forgotten that threats can change pretty much on a dime, and if we're going to go towards a "one suit fits all", they should've factored this possibility in as well when designing the new uniform. In the meantime, I will stick to the BDU until I absolutely have to buy the ABU.

[Rastaman]

What I like is how some of you people still want to iron the damn things even though you're specifically not supposed to!

:D :D :D :D :D

It seems that so many people have forgotten is that this GWOT can happen anywhere, especially in our own backyards, and the ABU is suited better to blend in with the terrain in the Middle East, versus let's say...Ramstein Germany or Kunsan Korea. What our senior leaders have done in their grand wisdom, have forgotten that threats can change pretty much on a dime, and if we're going to go towards a "one suit fits all", they should've factored this possibility in as well when designing the new uniform. In the meantime, I will stick to the BDU until I absolutely have to buy the ABU.

Right on! We get a lot of VIPs (foreign and domestic) at Ramstein...I can only imagine what they must think when they see Airmen in our multitude of uniform combinations...maybe we should all wear blues in garrison until we get this ABU/BDU thing fixed...what a mess!! (And I hate blues! LOL!)

[warr1or]

When you fix the little things, the big issues will fall into place.

See I don't know you, and I'm sure you're a great guy, but that right there is a line of BS. Pilots rolling up their sleeves or not wearing patches won't stop nukes from being mishandled, or keep planes from falling out of the sky. I'm all for uniformity to a degree, but if spec ops guys can go into the field wearing what they want, I think pilots can too. This isn't a recent thing, its called heritage, and somehow the roughneck "cowboys" in WW2 fought and won.

Today's generation of leaders, especially from the NCO corps aren't cowboys, they're a bunch of metrosexuals who were obviously picked on as kids by the way they treat their subordinates.

FACT: The Air Force is able to do its job, and do it well, without everyone having to be a cookie-cutter brainwashed Airmen. The ABU is shit, the Creed is bullshit, and most NCO's are shit. I'm so tired of the First Sgt's in the Air Force who wait for the gun truckers or security or god knows who else to come back from the field so they can brief them on their appearance as if when you're out fighting you give a flying F. You give your people the training and the tools to do the job, and don't bog them down with crap like having to wear the godawful PT gear a specific way while deployed, then making it a priority for NCO's to keep everyone looking good with their shirts tucked in a certain way. ITS A WASTE OF GODDAMN TIME AND MANPOWER.

NCO's and SNCO's whose sole role in life is to enforce bullshit should be seperated, and their pay dumped back into useful things like aircraft. I hear people whine constantly about force shaping and people not having enough staffing - in WW2 do you think they complained? Sure, but they also had leaders that worked alongside their Airmen, not the SNCO's of today who for the most part sit in their ivory towers. I don't know when the trend started for our great Air Force leaders to be allergic to actual work. End Rant.

[Gunner007]

Sir,
Thank you for your support... however your failure to wear your uniform properly has my Airmen questioning why it is THEY can't "ranger roll" their BDU/ABU caps, because the AFI changed to specifically prohibit doing so... yet this is just another order aircrew members don't have to follow... along with rolling up their sleeves improperly... not to mention what would happen if, just for fun, I decided to show up with a "morale patch" on my ABUs.

What y'all do is pretty damn kick ass... but as long as you think that gives you the right to ignore the same uniform instructions the rest of us have to follow... it does lose you a bit of respect.

ummmm, most fliers dont wear BDU's/ABU's and if they do its a really rare occasion, me being an exception because i hate the flight suit. You arent going to see a pilot or aircrew guy ranger rolling his soft cover. The people most likely to do that are the SP's. Some of them goto a ranger or pre-ranger course and come back all hooah and begin rolling their hats like that. Aircrew and pilots dont goto any ranger training unless they are stationed at hurby maybe.
Your correct on the sleeve thing. I am terrible about it and i admit it. Since i will only wear my flightsuit when i am flying your only likely to see me "out of regs" on the aircraft. Its not that i do it to intentionally skirt the reg/AFI its that its easier. Some guys will leave their cuffs up a roll when they fly but i like to have mine down when i am shooting guns. Its easier to roll them down if i cuff them out than if i have to try and dig them out from underneath, and rerolling them under with gloves on isnt so easy either. If the outside temp is 100 degrees and i am wearing 80lbs of crap a little wind up the sleeve sometimes helps. THat doesnt make it right and i wouldnt intentionally walk around base with them rolled out instead of under. Some guys are dinosaurs. The reg use to let us roll them up instead of under but it changed a while back and people never changed with it.
Since i have heard a few gripes on the morale patch issue i will attempt to give the flier perspective. Recently our wing king banned morale patches outside the units. that means we can wear them in the building but not off our compound. It may seem silly but that caused a huge dip in morale. Each flight has its own patch and they are proud of the contributions that their flights have made within the unit. There is some rivalry and funning about who recued who during katrina, who's flight was first into OIF/OEF, who's flight got to do hot extractions first for MEDEVAC etc... Its a little machismo'ish and we have fun with it, people are proud of those near death experiences they survived. Now we can still wear them in the compound but not if we go to the A-10 or C-130 units or a group BBQ so it stifles the experience a little. Sometimes people, say A-10s, their C flight may have supported an Op our A flight guys were on and they can identify each other and talk over old times. When you take the flight patches out of it then that comraderie wont develope. No ones going to just walk over and start talking about a harrowing experience with someone who wasnt there (maybe if there was a good reason i suppose).
The morale patches arent to be different and unique, they tend to have a significant meaning to those wearing them. Your correct, that doesnt make them right but i thought i would explain a little bit behind them.

[Gunner007]

....
Today's generation of leaders, especially from the NCO corps aren't cowboys, they're a bunch of metrosexuals who were obviously picked on as kids by the way they treat their subordinates.

FACT: The Air Force is able to do its job, and do it well, without everyone having to be a cookie-cutter brainwashed Airmen. The ABU is shit, the Creed is bullshit, and most NCO's are shit. I'm so tired of the First Sgt's in the Air Force who wait for the gun truckers or security or god knows who else to come back from the field so they can brief them on their appearance as if when you're out fighting you give a flying F. You give your people the training and the tools to do the job, and don't bog them down with crap like having to wear the godawful PT gear a specific way while deployed, then making it a priority for NCO's to keep everyone looking good with their shirts tucked in a certain way. ITS A WASTE OF GODDAMN TIME AND MANPOWER.

NCO's and SNCO's whose sole role in life is to enforce bullshit should be seperated, and their pay dumped back into useful things like aircraft. I hear people whine constantly about force shaping and people not having enough staffing - in WW2 do you think they complained? Sure, but they also had leaders that worked alongside their Airmen, not the SNCO's of today who for the most part sit in their ivory towers. I don't know when the trend started for our great Air Force leaders to be allergic to actual work. End Rant.

I have no doubt your going to catch a lot of flack for saying this but sometimes the truth hurts. Outside the TOC in Bagram there is a flag pole and around 1700'ish its full of SNCO's just standing around waiting for someone to walk by with a uniform infraction! keep in mind we work out of this building and launch on missions from there. A Lt Col actually stopped a polaris loaded with aircrew who were on a real world launch alert for a mission to save a wounded soldier, he wanted to reprimand them for wearing improper cold weather gear. They werent at the BX, they were headed directly to their helos, suited up to fly up in the mountains where the temp is freezing cold to save a life and this bag of crap thought he was so important he would impede their mission. He stood in the way of the polaris so they couldnt drive away and when they seemed frustrated by his imposition he couldnt understand why. After they explained it he was still pissed they didnt want to listen.
This is but 1 example of how worrying about the stupid stuff can negatively impact the mission. Personally, unless i am meetings dignitaries what i need to wear in order to safely prosecute my mission is no ones business but my own. If someone has a special mission (something outside the normal usaf thought process) and they require gear and equipment to prosecute that mission then those who dont get that type of gear should recognize those guys probably have a really good need to justify the expense and stay out of their way. If the SNCO crowd at the flag pole doesnt like that some people are using gear not written in the almighty 36-2903 then how about being a part of the solution and working with those guys to submit a change for them to the AFI so they dont have to keep skirting it? Because its easier to bitch and whine about someone getting something they dont have than it is to help those guys complete their mission.
I agree with you, some people should just be sent home and discharged! Your either a part of the solution or a part of the problem. the problem is the war and the various missions that need to be prosecuted in order to win it. Your either there to help that happen or your not, plain and simple. If your not then you dont need to be in the AOR!

[BTDTNM]

Aircrew should have to pay for their bags. Like the rest of us pay for our uniforms. Either that or stop paying them a clothing allowance every year.

[Lifeafter40]

I think what we are experiencing, across all the branches, is cohort of senior leaders, both NCO's and Officers, who have spent their entire careers in peace time service...barring the brief Gulf War of the 90's, all these people have done is train. they came up through the ranks training, and now that there is a real world mission at hand, that is all they know how to do, is harp on the details of training regulations. I, like everyone else, know that those regulations and standards are there for good reason, and that no one should intentionally go against them, or skirt the rules but, there are also times when there are more important things at hand, like Gunner mentioned. Those leaders do need to maintain a high level of proficiency and adherence to the rules, but they also need to know when and where to press the issues.

[CrustySMSgt]

See I don't know you, and I'm sure you're a great guy, but that right there is a line of BS. Pilots rolling up their sleeves or not wearing patches won't stop nukes from being mishandled, or keep planes from falling out of the sky. I'm all for uniformity to a degree, but if spec ops guys can go into the field wearing what they want, I think pilots can too. This isn't a recent thing, its called heritage, and somehow the roughneck "cowboys" in WW2 fought and won.

Today's generation of leaders, especially from the NCO corps aren't cowboys, they're a bunch of metrosexuals who were obviously picked on as kids by the way they treat their subordinates.

FACT: The Air Force is able to do its job, and do it well, without everyone having to be a cookie-cutter brainwashed Airmen. The ABU is shit, the Creed is bullshit, and most NCO's are shit. I'm so tired of the First Sgt's in the Air Force who wait for the gun truckers or security or god knows who else to come back from the field so they can brief them on their appearance as if when you're out fighting you give a flying F. You give your people the training and the tools to do the job, and don't bog them down with crap like having to wear the godawful PT gear a specific way while deployed, then making it a priority for NCO's to keep everyone looking good with their shirts tucked in a certain way. ITS A WASTE OF GODDAMN TIME AND MANPOWER.

NCO's and SNCO's whose sole role in life is to enforce bullshit should be seperated, and their pay dumped back into useful things like aircraft. I hear people whine constantly about force shaping and people not having enough staffing - in WW2 do you think they complained? Sure, but they also had leaders that worked alongside their Airmen, not the SNCO's of today who for the most part sit in their ivory towers. I don't know when the trend started for our great Air Force leaders to be allergic to actual work. End Rant.

I gotta disagree... your argument is that if I kick ass, I shouldn't have to follow the rules. I think the entire Marine Corps would disagree with you. They've got it right... you follow the rules, or get squashed. Seems to work out pretty good for them! Why is that so hard for Airmen to understand. It is the military... not Burger King... you don't get it your way.

I will agree with your, "ITS A WASTE OF GODDAMN TIME AND MANPOWER" statement... It is a waste, because if everyone had the discipline, pride, and respect they should have, they'd tuck their shirt in when it is supposed to be tucked in, and wear their uniform properly without someone having to tell them. Is wearing the right color socks, not ranger rolling their hat, or tucking in their shirt going to save their life, or keep the nukes secure? No... but it will set them apart from those who don't have what it takes to serve.

And if this is the BS you feed your subordinates, you are failing them and failing the Air Force. I don't care how much of a warrior you are, and how much ass you kick.

[CrustySMSgt]

ummmm, most fliers dont wear BDU's/ABU's and if they do its a really rare occasion, me being an exception because i hate the flight suit. You arent going to see a pilot or aircrew guy ranger rolling his soft cover. The people most likely to do that are the SP's. Some of them goto a ranger or pre-ranger course and come back all hooah and begin rolling their hats like that. Aircrew and pilots dont goto any ranger training unless they are stationed at hurby maybe.

I was comparing the cocked fligt cap to the ranger rolled ("folded" according to the AFI)soft cap. Granted there is no similar prohibition against cocking your flight cap... but as we know, exclusion isn't implied approval.

Your correct on the sleeve thing. I am terrible about it and i admit it. Since i will only wear my flightsuit when i am flying your only likely to see me "out of regs" on the aircraft. Its not that i do it to intentionally skirt the reg/AFI its that its easier. Some guys will leave their cuffs up a roll when they fly but i like to have mine down when i am shooting guns. Its easier to roll them down if i cuff them out than if i have to try and dig them out from underneath, and rerolling them under with gloves on isnt so easy either. If the outside temp is 100 degrees and i am wearing 80lbs of crap a little wind up the sleeve sometimes helps. THat doesnt make it right and i wouldnt intentionally walk around base with them rolled out instead of under. Some guys are dinosaurs. The reg use to let us roll them up instead of under but it changed a while back and people never changed with it.

The recent change to the FDU wear rules to now allow one roll when in garrision, which seems to be what most folks do anyway. Glad to see someone responding to the needs of the masses.

Since i have heard a few gripes on the morale patch issue i will attempt to give the flier perspective. Recently our wing king banned morale patches outside the units. that means we can wear them in the building but not off our compound. It may seem silly but that caused a huge dip in morale. Each flight has its own patch and they are proud of the contributions that their flights have made within the unit. There is some rivalry and funning about who recued who during katrina, who's flight was first into OIF/OEF, who's flight got to do hot extractions first for MEDEVAC etc... Its a little machismo'ish and we have fun with it, people are proud of those near death experiences they survived. Now we can still wear them in the compound but not if we go to the A-10 or C-130 units or a group BBQ so it stifles the experience a little. Sometimes people, say A-10s, their C flight may have supported an Op our A flight guys were on and they can identify each other and talk over old times. When you take the flight patches out of it then that comraderie wont develope. No ones going to just walk over and start talking about a harrowing experience with someone who wasnt there (maybe if there was a good reason i suppose).
The morale patches arent to be different and unique, they tend to have a significant meaning to those wearing them. Your correct, that doesnt make them right but i thought i would explain a little bit behind them.

It isn't your wing CC's place to restrict wear in or out of your compound. Morale patches are specifically prohibited in the AFI:

3.2.1.6. Morale patches are not authorized for wear. Morale patches include, but are not limited to
specialty, competition, or recognition patches.

3.2.5.6. Add-On Patches. MAJCOMs will publish guidance on wear of add-on patches (i.e., flying
hour milestone, instructor, flight examiner scroll, etc). Campaign/exercise patches are not
authorized.

As I said before, personally I don't care one way or another, but proffessionally, I don't see how you could flagrantly thumb your nose at the AFI and do what you want to do, yet hold your non-flying Airmen accountable.

Heck, fliers rule the world, you'd think they'd just change the AFIs to hook themselves up! :D

I'm not trying to be a "hater," I'm all for heritage, and understand that aircrew have always done the best job of preserving their tradition and representing their lineage. I'm all for aircrew swagger... but as with most things, you can thank those who don't now where to draw the line and got out of control with the morale patches for them being "outlawed."

I'm also a proponent for bringing back unit patches on the ABUs. Sure it costs money, which is in short supply... but can you put a price on unit pride?

Anyway, I appreciate the detailed reply... thanks!

[CrustySMSgt]

I have no doubt your going to catch a lot of flack for saying this but sometimes the truth hurts. Outside the TOC in Bagram there is a flag pole and around 1700'ish its full of SNCO's just standing around waiting for someone to walk by with a uniform infraction! ...

I agree with you, some people should just be sent home and discharged! Your either a part of the solution or a part of the problem. the problem is the war and the various missions that need to be prosecuted in order to win it. Your either there to help that happen or your not, plain and simple. If your not then you dont need to be in the AOR!

If these SNCOs are there because they have nothing better to do, then I agree with you 100%! I won't go out of my way to track down uniform violations... in fact I try and avoid them... I hate going to the chow hall (home station), because all I do is check off uniform violations in my head while I try and eat. I don't go blustering around the place being an a-hole... I try and respect that this is "their turf" and they have to eat here... if I tried to correct all of them, I'd never get to eat. But if they are sitting close, I do take the time to engage them in conversation and then throw in a "oh by the way..." Most of the time it is something they didn't know... and their supervisors were too lazy, or uneducated themselves to tell them. I've got better things to do than be the uniform police 24/7... but to completely ignore violations just re-enforces in those who violate the instruction that it is OK. I talked to a CHief the other day who had his hat ranger rolled. He was very surprised to learn that in the Oct '06 revision of the instruction, it specifically prohibitted it. He was very appreciative that I took the time to educate him... and was pissed that no one had mentioned it to him in the 1.5 years since the instruction changed. Don't be afraid to bring violations up to those senior to you... you'd be surprised how many of them actually appreciate you taking care of the... most don't want to look bad in front of their people.

Back to the issue above... unfortunately sometimes those SNCOs arond the flag pole are directed to be there, because people just don't get it and can't police themselves... and trust me, most hate being there and have much better things to do!

And yes... it is pretty sad that a LtC wasn't savvy enough to tell the difference between a polaris loaded with mission ready aircrew and a bunch of yahoos with nothing better to do than dress up in their winter gear and go for a joy ride around base just to piss people like him off...

[Shrike]

I gotta disagree... your argument is that if I kick ass, I shouldn't have to follow the rules. I think the entire Marine Corps would disagree with you. They've got it right... you follow the rules, or get squashed. Seems to work out pretty good for them! Why is that so hard for Airmen to understand. It is the military... not Burger King... you don't get it your way.

I will agree with your, "ITS A WASTE OF GODDAMN TIME AND MANPOWER" statement... It is a waste, because if everyone had the discipline, pride, and respect they should have, they'd tuck their shirt in when it is supposed to be tucked in, and wear their uniform properly without someone having to tell them. Is wearing the right color socks, not ranger rolling their hat, or tucking in their shirt going to save their life, or keep the nukes secure? No... but it will set them apart from those who don't have what it takes to serve.

And if this is the BS you feed your subordinates, you are failing them and failing the Air Force. I don't care how much of a warrior you are, and how much ass you kick.

Well said. I was formulating a response, but you hit the nail on the head. Good point about the Marines.

I don't correct uniform violations when downrange for those who are actively involved in the mission, or who are coming back from one. It's ridiculous to do so. But for those who aren't, you need to be within reg's. It's that simple.

[Shrike]

NCO's and SNCO's whose sole role in life is to enforce bullshit should be seperated, and their pay dumped back into useful things like aircraft.

Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with AFI36-2618, specifically under NCO/SNCO responsibilities where it says "Accept and execute all duties, instructions, responsibilities, and lawful orders in a timely, efficient manner."

You might also want to look at the part under Airmen responsibilities that states "Exhibit professional behavior, military bearing, respect for authority, the highest standards of dress and appearance, and exemplary standards of on and off-duty performance. Airmen should correct personnel who violate military standards."

This is required of you. If you cannot do it - even though, from your statements, you appear to be single-handedly winning the GWOT for America - then perhaps we should trade you for an airplane.


I looked for the section in 36-2618 where it says "NCOs and SNCOs should not enforce reg's and instructions and shit like that, because some subordinates think they're above all that stupid nonsense. NCOs and SNCOs should just let their subordinates get away with whatever they want as long as the mission gets done. All that correcting of minor infractions and BS like that shouldn't fly if they have badasses working for them."

I couldn't find it anywhere.

[ConfusedAirman]

Seems to me that we just need senior NCOs who can think and not just regurgitate what they read in AFIs. Ranger rolling a hat is a stupid effort by gung-ho types to enhance their appearance. Looking scruffy or wearing unauthorized uniform items associated with being out in combat or just out in austere conditions deserves some slack from the uniform police. Our current batch of senior NCOs would have a coronary if they saw our military members performing their wartime tasks while looking like past military members from Vietnam and other wars. T-shirts untucked, rolled-up T-shirt sleeves, NO shirts at all, shorts, head bands, hair, beards, and mustaches out of regs, etc. And you know what? The work and mission got done.

[Shrike]

Seems to me that we just need senior NCOs who can think and not just regurgitate what they read in AFIs.
Seems like we need some airmen who can take some pride in their appearance when NOT "outside the wire" on a mission.

Ranger rolling a hat is a stupid effort by gung-ho types to enhance their appearance. Looking scruffy or wearing unauthorized uniform items associated with being out in combat or just out in austere conditions deserves some slack from the uniform police. Our current batch of senior NCOs would have a coronary if they saw our military members performing their wartime tasks while looking like past military members from Vietnam and other wars.
Would you want to be launching and recovering aircraft beside draftees who desperately did not want to be there? Because that's who many of those people were.

T-shirts untucked, rolled-up T-shirt sleeves, NO shirts at all, shorts, head bands, hair, beards, and mustaches out of regs, etc. And you know what? The work and mission got done.

And it also got done during Gulf War I and all actions after then, when very little of that was going on.

[Measure Man]

Seems to me that we just need senior NCOs who can think and not just regurgitate what they read in AFIs. Ranger rolling a hat is a stupid effort by gung-ho types to enhance their appearance. Looking scruffy or wearing unauthorized uniform items associated with being out in combat or just out in austere conditions deserves some slack from the uniform police. Our current batch of senior NCOs would have a coronary if they saw our military members performing their wartime tasks while looking like past military members from Vietnam and other wars. T-shirts untucked, rolled-up T-shirt sleeves, NO shirts at all, shorts, head bands, hair, beards, and mustaches out of regs, etc. And you know what? The work and mission got done.

Sort of off-topic...but that was a different time. It was a drafted force, now we are a volunteer force.

Ask anyone around what the public perception of the military was in Vietnam compared to what it is now.

Then think about whether or not public perception is an important consideration of an all-volunteer force.

Also, what role to do think public perception of the military plays in the current wars? Does it matter whether or not people have a high opinion of our Armed Forces? You might not think it matters to how you do your job today...but think of where you get your equipment, pay raises, benefits, and other support.

Yes, we have a higher standard of appearance today than we did in Vietnam...so while I doubt I'd have a coronary, if I saw you walking around with no shirt, a headband, beard and out of reg hair...yeah, you can bet we'd have a talk.

I think we need Airman who realize there is more to this gig than just turning a wrench well

[Lifeafter40]

I agree that public perception is a big factor in today's war. The military needs to maintain the professional appearance that the Americans, and the media, expects from them, and to remain "above reproach" in all their military actions. I in no way advocate a lessoning in military standards, I would simply like to see leaders make better choices in their corrections, both in timeliness and application. Lets help our junior soldiers UNDERSTAND the importance of the rules, instead of coming across like the infraction police. That being said, those same junior soldiers need to accept that they volunteered to serve in the military, and to follow those regulations, whether they agree or understand them... individual discipline is paramount to any military success. if you can not be trusted to follow even the simplest of uniform standards, how can you be expected to follow the truly difficult ones... when lives and the mission are on the line. You say that "as long as the job is getting done" well, I say following the standards IS the job.

[Gunner007]

I do agree that people should be policing their own dress and appearance. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that if our SNCO's or 0-5 and above types who are in an AOR would leave the fricking reg's alone people might have a easier time following them.
If the reg (36-2903) says to wear something a certain way then it should be worn that way regardless of where I go. I shouldnt have a sup to the sup to the sup to the AFI. Example: I wear DCU's in country when i am not flying, as i have said before, i hate the flight suit. Now i walked around for probably a month, month in a half, during the summer months, in OEF in my DCU's, off and on. WHen one day they (the brass) tells us, there is a Gen. coming, roll your sleeves down. I chuckled, im in DCU's i havent done anything wrong. OH NO, seems your not allowed to roll up the sleeves on your DCU's in OEF. Now i am thoroughly confused. I have been deploying to the middle east for 18 yrs, never have i heard this one. I complied and then went digging for this rule. Seems some dumbass decided since there is a malaria threat in OEF that people should have their sleeves down to expose less flesh. Never mind its 100 degree, never mind the only authorized uniform off duty (if there is such a thing) is the PT uniform, WITH??? you guessed it, SHORTS and tee shirts. So i was breaking a rule i didnt know about, created by an idiot with no common sense.
I think the AFI for D&A should be applied in the AOR as it is written. We confuse people by altering it and then destroying morale by bitching at them for not knowing it. I think when people are deployed they probably have more important things going on than tracking down obscure supplements to regulations. Train like we fight is the current in fashion motto is it not? Then why shouldnt that apply to clothing regs also?
As for the guys around the flagpole and them not wanting to be there... HAHAHAHAHA You see we have chiefs and SNCO's flying also. Seems these folks tried to rope our SNCO's into their little fold. Only our guys told them they were here to do a mission and had more important things to do. Suprise, the group grope then began to ignore our SNCO's and snub them at meetings and functions as though they basically didnt exist. No 0-5 came and leaned on our guys, no one got a call saying send your guys out to do pride patrols or whatever the term du jour is now. From all appearances this is them (the SNCO's) taking it upon themselves to do this.
Hey power to them stateside for keeping us honest if thats what they feel they need to do but in the AOR manning slots are limited. Billeting slots are limited, combat force multipliers are in high demand and for someone with no real purpose as a force multiplier to be there taking one of those coveted slots from people who are needed is a tragedy. There is a time and place for that and yes as some of you said maybe a little DAB of its needed down range, but if people have that much time to do nothing but stroll about and point out infractions they need to go home. We can bring over more EOD or cops or some specialty thats needed to win the war. When i was in Balad there were over 25 USAF E-9's listed on the global for balad!! Your kidding me? The actual number was astounding and i figure this isnt the place to post exact numbers but trust me its laughable! How do we justify that many E-9's on one base? Perhaps a few of those guys had rotated home and they just didnt have their addresses deleted from the system but that still leaves a lot of people with not much to do.
Yes E-9s are important and yes they are needed but how do you split up the required decision making between that many?? I think what warrior was trying to get at is there are people over there who actually are not needed. They have nothing really to do but be uniform police etc... Those are the people i think he is referring to when he says send them home.

[MovingtargeT]

Sleeves down, heh. I showed up to a recall at 1 am wearing a bdu blouse where I kept the sleeves up. I got the phone call and grabbed the uniform I had just worn that day and changed in the dark to not wake my wife up. I walk in and check my name off, and the inevitable gauntlet of SNCOs are standing there. One made a comment "well well well, where are you going, on a vacation? Must be some place warm where you'd need your sleeves up." It was my fault for not knowing that you are supposed to wear sleeves down during a recall, but every instruction I had heard was to get in uniform and get to the squadron ASAP. There were males there with a weekend's worth of stubble on their faces, women with their hair down, and some people were hungover or still drunk and their buddies had to dress them and drag them in...yet we were gonna lose the war because I had my sleeves up.

[technomage1]

Gunner007 hit the nail on the head. Last time I in Iraq, I was running along at a pretty good clip outside. My PT shirt came untucked, and someone actually stopped me and made me tuck it in.

Yeah, as if that tucked shirt will protect me against a mortar round on my head.

I completely agree, the AFI shouldn't be monkeyed about with without a darned good reason.

[warr1or]

CrustySMSgt,

I'm not saying that uniformity is a bad thing, while in garrison I think it's everyone's responsibility to look good. Gunner007 hit on points I would have brought up. I'm talking about the folks whose sole goal in life is enforcing stateside rules in a deployed location, for no discernable reason other than to make life more difficult.


As for saying "And if this is the BS you feed your subordinates, you are failing them and failing the Air Force," dude, that was a total asshole statement. Along with the Marine statement. Have you even been downrange with Marines? When you're in the business of knocking down doors things like shaving and making sure your uniform is squared away take a backseat to surviving. If you're talking about in garrison, well NO SHIT SMSgt, the Marines also have a better way of dealing with uniforms, and if you think their Air Wings are any different from ours you're wrong...aircrews get away with the same things.

You remind me of that deuschbag Captain who wrote that comment on the Air Force website about mixing ABU's with BDU's, specifically ABU uniforms with BDU gortex, and how he thought it was wrong and unproffesional and has briefed people on it - even though at the time it was authorized because the Air Force can't even distribute a uniform properally much less even make one that is functional. I'm sorry, but it's more important to complete the mission and make sure your people are taken care of than to look all purty in the sparkly awesome ABU's. Do you agree with that Crusty, or are you one of those dinosaur SNCO's who would rather have your maintainers freezing on the flightline?

If the Air Force focused more on doing the job, ie killing bad guys and rebuilding the countires we've invaded, we would all be going home much faster. The point I was trying to make before was that cowboys win wars, it's not about thinking "I kick ass, I can do what I want." (at least from my end). Creases don't win wars, and I see no point in gigging someone who puts their life on the line constantly...

[DomoreWithless52]

Agree with Gunner007, I've seen some pretty piddly-a$$ "standards" harped-on & enforced by E7, E8, and E9 in the AOR. And it really makes a lot of us feel like they are out of touch and oblivious to the combat operations going on that many of us are 100% focused on. At any given point in time an Airman can be guilty of violating dozens of these daily living standards on a FOB. (e.g. 3-minute combat showers, can't wear flip-flops from shower to hooch, PT shirt tucked-in while you're walking from shower to hooch, wear of reflective belt from shower to hooch (even though there's no chance of being run over by a vehicle in that 50-foot distance between the two, etc). These are just some quick examples of daily standards that are under the microscope by the "roving snake-pit" of FOBBIT leaders. You literally can't take a dump without violating some sort of standard (don't flush baby-wipes because they ruin the water treatment machine that the TCNs dump the sewage in).

My point is that there are about 100 times as many standards to comply with on the FOBs, and many of them have nothing to do with safety, and many of them are piddly & nit-picking border line on harassment. The standards that serve a legitimate safety or operational purpose must be adhered to, but all the rest of the nit-picking needs to stop. This is killing the morale of everyone to focus on nit-picking with no value-added. Every step you take on a FOB, you have to be thinking about what you might be doing wrong. At this same time, some of us are focused on the mission, like say convoy operations. In which case my focus is 100% on training and preparing my Airmen on the ROEs, SOPs, TTPs for ops outside the wire, with the goal of us all coming home alive. In the same convoy briefing that I am giving my guys before we roll outside the wire I am discussing MEDEVAC procedures, combat life saver duties, gun truck tactics...and at the end of the brief I am to remind the guys that once we get to the other FOB to make sure their PT shirt is always tucked. Sorry, that's not real high on my list of priorities command chief.:mad:

[ConfusedAirman]

Our current batch of senior NCOs would have a coronary if they saw our military members performing their wartime tasks while looking like past military members from Vietnam and other wars.


Would you want to be launching and recovering aircraft beside draftees who desperately did not want to be there? Because that's who many of those people were.


You assume that those individuals were all "draftees who desperately did not want to be there." Not true. But I have to say that yes, I would want to launch and recover aircraft besides many of those individuals who performed their duties admirably and with honor, but without worrying about appearance regulations. I say yes, because I have. I enlisted in 1976 and worked with many Vietnam vets still in who shared many a story about their time in SE Asia. For my own experience, in 1980, shortly after the Desert One tragedy (look it up if you don't know), I was a Senior Airman deployed to a range camp at White Sands Missile Range with the 1SOW and HH-53s as part of a joint exercise to determine just what the US military did not know about aircraft operations in the desert. Day one we were told to wear whatever. Day two we were told no shorts - people were getting burnt. We would leave our open-bay barracks in fatigue pants, T-shirts, boots, dew rags, headbands - no fatigue shirt or hat - and head on in to work launching, recovering, and maintaining helicopters. Within a few weeks hair was out of regs because there were no barbers.

I still proudly serve and wear the uniform every day, but I sure miss those days when we concentrated on the important things.

[Shrike]

Our current batch of senior NCOs would have a coronary if they saw our military members performing their wartime tasks while looking like past military members from Vietnam and other wars.



You assume that those individuals were all "draftees who desperately did not want to be there." Not true. But I have to say that yes, I would want to launch and recover aircraft besides many of those individuals who performed their duties admirably and with honor, but without worrying about appearance regulations. I say yes, because I have. I enlisted in 1976 and worked with many Vietnam vets still in who shared many a story about their time in SE Asia. For my own experience, in 1980, shortly after the Desert One tragedy (look it up if you don't know), I was a Senior Airman deployed to a range camp at White Sands Missile Range with the 1SOW and HH-53s as part of a joint exercise to determine just what the US military did not know about aircraft operations in the desert. Day one we were told to wear whatever. Day two we were told no shorts - people were getting burnt. We would leave our open-bay barracks in fatigue pants, T-shirts, boots, dew rags, headbands - no fatigue shirt or hat - and head on in to work launching, recovering, and maintaining helicopters. Within a few weeks hair was out of regs because there were no barbers.

I still proudly serve and wear the uniform every day, but I sure miss those days when we concentrated on the important things.

For better, or - as some people seem to think - for worse, times have changed.

[World_Class]

Update from the Field: the FOB I'm currently at will not allow you into the DFAC unless you are wearing a reflective belt with your PT gear in the daytime. My opinion this is going beyond appearances and straight into WTF? Sadly I think it will only get worse, the first 3 times I deployed there were none of this petty BS that we had to pu up with, but the longer we're in the AOR the more it will be treated as a garrison environment. I've also heard of FOB's requiring certain sock legths while in PT's, crazy.

I also agree with the majority who wants standardization; what's the problem with having the AFI say have your shirt tucked in unless actively engaging in excercise? It would be standard with the AOR and less confusion.

[CrustySMSgt]

You say that "as long as the job is getting done" well, I say following the standards IS the job.

Well said! As a Jr Enlisted, you get paid to follow ALL the standards... not just the ones that are convinient. As NCOs, SNCOs, and Officers, you get paid to ENFORCE these standards... all the time, not just when it is convinient. When you walk by an Airman whose obviously doing something wrong, they know it... and you are just renforcing that behavior... they know they can get away with it... But of course you've gotta make sure you're straight first...

[CrustySMSgt]

WHen one day they (the brass) tells us, there is a Gen. coming, roll your sleeves down. I chuckled, im in DCU's i havent done anything wrong. OH NO, seems your not allowed to roll up the sleeves on your DCU's in OEF. Now i am thoroughly confused. I have been deploying to the middle east for 18 yrs, never have i heard this one. I complied and then went digging for this rule. Seems some dumbass decided since there is a malaria threat in OEF that people should have their sleeves down to expose less flesh. Never mind its 100 degree, never mind the only authorized uniform off duty (if there is such a thing) is the PT uniform, WITH??? you guessed it, SHORTS and tee shirts. So i was breaking a rule i didnt know about, created by an idiot with no common sense.

As for the guys around the flagpole and them not wanting to be there... HAHAHAHAHA You see we have chiefs and SNCO's flying also. Seems these folks tried to rope our SNCO's into their little fold. Only our guys told them they were here to do a mission and had more important things to do. Suprise, the group grope then began to ignore our SNCO's and snub them at meetings and functions as though they basically didnt exist. No 0-5 came and leaned on our guys, no one got a call saying send your guys out to do pride patrols or whatever the term du jour is now. From all appearances this is them (the SNCO's) taking it upon themselves to do this.

That sleeves thing is pretty damn silly... I could see it applying to outside the wire... but come on... as you said, you can prance around in your PT short shorts and have the skeeters biting your ass cheeks when you're off duty, but in uniform they are now a threat? :confused:

I won't say some of my peers are a bit over the top... and when you get a few of them together, the mob mentality sets in and they do dumb stuff... and of course we know everyone hates bag wearers anyway ( :tongue: ) but to ignore them and all that is some petty BS...

[CrustySMSgt]

Gunner007 hit the nail on the head. Last time I in Iraq, I was running along at a pretty good clip outside. My PT shirt came untucked, and someone actually stopped me and made me tuck it in.


I'm pretty sure the CENTAF rules allow your shirt to be untucked while performing physical activity... so there shouldn't ahve been an issue...

[CrustySMSgt]

CrustySMSgt,

I'm not saying that uniformity is a bad thing, while in garrison I think it's everyone's responsibility to look good. Gunner007 hit on points I would have brought up. I'm talking about the folks whose sole goal in life is enforcing stateside rules in a deployed location, for no discernable reason other than to make life more difficult.


As for saying "And if this is the BS you feed your subordinates, you are failing them and failing the Air Force," dude, that was a total asshole statement. Along with the Marine statement. Have you even been downrange with Marines? When you're in the business of knocking down doors things like shaving and making sure your uniform is squared away take a backseat to surviving. If you're talking about in garrison, well NO SHIT SMSgt, the Marines also have a better way of dealing with uniforms, and if you think their Air Wings are any different from ours you're wrong...aircrews get away with the same things.

You remind me of that deuschbag Captain who wrote that comment on the Air Force website about mixing ABU's with BDU's, specifically ABU uniforms with BDU gortex, and how he thought it was wrong and unproffesional and has briefed people on it - even though at the time it was authorized because the Air Force can't even distribute a uniform properally much less even make one that is functional. I'm sorry, but it's more important to complete the mission and make sure your people are taken care of than to look all purty in the sparkly awesome ABU's. Do you agree with that Crusty, or are you one of those dinosaur SNCO's who would rather have your maintainers freezing on the flightline?

If the Air Force focused more on doing the job, ie killing bad guys and rebuilding the countires we've invaded, we would all be going home much faster. The point I was trying to make before was that cowboys win wars, it's not about thinking "I kick ass, I can do what I want." (at least from my end). Creases don't win wars, and I see no point in gigging someone who puts their life on the line constantly...

Warrior,
OK, I went back and reread your original post, and then my response... and truthfully I can't recall what set me off... I guess I was on a roll with the aircrew stuff and just kept going... My "failing... " statement was over the top, and I appologize. I do see how frustrating it can be to do all that ass kicking, only to be harrassed by folks with nothing better to do. And I am all for doing what you have to do to accomplish the mission... and will agree that there are some pretty rediculous rules inside the wire, and that they change so often it is hard to keep up. I will also agree that some people, of all ranks, go out of their way to be a-holes and live to ride peoples' ass... But I also think it is important, especially as an NCO/SNCO to know what the rules are and follow them... even when it is a pain in the ass, because if you don't, your troops see it and remember it... and when you chew their ass for something else, all they are thinking is, "I remember that time when I saw you ____________."

As far as the ABU/BDU mix... don't get me started on that... how the "F" do you release a uniform that doesn't have what you need to wear, in any environment, from day 1?!? And still, over a year after it was cleared for wear, you can't find the jackets anywhere... are we going to have to endure another winter of folks freezing their ass off and getting wet? Hell yes the folks working out in the weather should be able to wear their gortex... and so should the people "just walking to work." I'm all for uniformity... but how can leadership look all Airmen in the eye and say, "sorry, we screwed up this whole issue... our bad. Hate to do it to you, but so we don't look bad, but unless you're actually working in the weather, you're going to have to just get wet and freezae your ass off, so we don't highlight the fact that we are clueless..." The green boots are silly (don't get me started on THOSE!)... but we allow desert boots to be worn "until green boots are available" which they are everywhere now... what is the differnce between that & the gortex jacket?

I do take this stuff pretty serious... and as all crusty old folks do sometimes, get spun up and lose focus... thanks for reeling me back in :D

[World_Class]

I'm pretty sure the CENTAF rules allow your shirt to be untucked while performing physical activity... so there shouldn't ahve been an issue...

Depends where you're at, CENTAF can be trumped by the FOB instruction. I was assigned to an Army FOB and you're get briefed mid-excercise if your shirt was untucked.

[wngs02]

Fighter pilots, who had no clue what was needed on the ground, along with their E-9 yes-men, approved it.

What else would you expect?



I would expect that you STFU and realize your role as a shoe clerk

[wngs02]

Fighter pilots, who had no clue what was needed on the ground, along with their E-9 yes-men, approved it.

What else would you expect?

Amen to all, New uniform is a waste. Focus should be on getting the pilots to wear thier uniform correctly. Sleeves pushed up, flight cap crunched down in back (when worn), t-shirts of what ever color strikes them and finally the un-authorized call sign name tags. Give me a break, Im waiting on the other shoe to drop and we have some accountability on the 0-6 & below.

Let me guess, you're probably the type to point out the speck in my eye while ignoring the log in your own. Quick anecdote: some of the 455 AEW SNCOs were quick to pounce on an aircrew member when their PT shirt was not tucked tight (it was tucked, but the shirt was two sizes too big because AAFES wouldn't stock her size and ordering online was an even worse fiasco) but thought nothing of taking photos on the flightline w/o approval. OPSEC be damned...the enemy wins when we don't tuck our PT shirts and use shirt garters.

[The Opinionated One]

Just to defend the PT uniform, the reason we can wear T-shirts and shorts in mosquito infested environments is because the mosquito's are laughing at us so hard they can't bite to spread disease. And yep, as far as I am aware all the bases out in the AOR are requiring the T's to be tucked in. I have even seen some Airmen getting hollered at because their "Desert Purse" was too big since the shorts don't have pockets. If these same SNCO's took the same interest when people were inappropriately dressed in civ's long ago we wouldn't have the same issues now.

I will wear my DCU until it is pulled from my cold dead hands or I retire (which I hope is first). The ACU is a joke that should have been scuttled long ago.

[snakeyes132]

Couple things in response to a bunch of posts:

My whole chain of command wears flight suits around, including our 1 flight doc, at a base with no aircraft! Not all the time, but on occasion. I can't understand how when you are assigned to a place without any aircraft you can wear a flightsuit.

The start of the post:
The ABU's suck period. I am required to wear 100% cotton uniforms and they don't make them. The uniform design i call BDUS 2.0. I love the fact that the whole point was to have a "universal" uniform, but know they are working on a "combat" abu. I guess we could call it the ACU, Air Combat Uniform, but wait another branch already uses that name for an effective combat uniform. I'm not sure what battles we are fighting in it. I'm in CE, I wore it for a bivuoac at night ops training, hit the ground once and the knees are frayed and grass stained, same with the boots. I also love wearing ACU combat gear, since no company will make ABU gear. Lets make our own "battle uniform" and wear army combat gear. Hole in One Air Force.

Enforcing Standards:
I agree that in the AOR uniform regs are out of contral. At Balad a friend of mine got yelled at by a SNCO that was "tasked" to stand outside the bathroom at 2am and yell at people who didn't tuck their pt shirts in to take a crap in the middle of the night. Maybe if we focused more on Nukes, UAV's and getting bombs on target to support the ground troops, and less on "Heritage" blues, new PT gear, and designing the worlds most outrageous "Battle" uniform we would have so many problems today.

With that, it's NCO's jobs to enforce all regs and standards not just uniforms. My new favorite quote is "this is the military not burger king, you can't have it your way." But along with that the O's and SNCO's have to lead by example. I think a large part of what is wrong with the airforce as a whole is this lax status of standards, I don't blame the SNCO who goes crazy about wearing socks that are too long in PT gear, they are trying to enforce standards, PT is apparently the only ones they know how. Lets try not loading live nukes on aircraft and flying around the country first and all the little piddly stuff will follow.

[snakeyes132]

Oh yeah, I forgot, as far as effective camo goes, google multicam, it's great. It's rumored that it beat the ACU in field testing but the Army went with ACU because multicam is liscensed to a company and would cost more.

[sigecaps]

Oh yeah, I forgot, as far as effective camo goes, google multicam, it's great. It's rumored that it beat the ACU in field testing but the Army went with ACU because multicam is liscensed to a company and would cost more.

As far as effective camo goes, go to the ABU manufacturer's website, and read how they wanted to give us a lot better camo, but Air Force leadership rejected it because they preferred aesthetics over utility.

http://www.tigerstripeproducts.com/airforcetiger.htm

[ender9492]

I've been preaching the advantages of MultiCam over ACUpat, and the ABU tigerstripe, to everyone I talk to! I've even submitted a proposal to the online Uniform Board, but it was rejected. It frustrates me that the Air Force wasted their time on designing a uniform that has no advantages over the BDU. I can only hope that someone higher up, somewhere, will have the common sense, and the influence to implement a more effective uniform design, and more effective camouflage design.

[CrustySMSgt]

I've been preaching the advantages of MultiCam over ACUpat, and the ABU tigerstripe, to everyone I talk to! I've even submitted a proposal to the online Uniform Board, but it was rejected. It frustrates me that the Air Force wasted their time on designing a uniform that has no advantages over the BDU. I can only hope that someone higher up, somewhere, will have the common sense, and the influence to implement a more effective uniform design, and more effective camouflage design.


I couldn't agree more... but even after none of those who had input to the design are around, that'd be a pretty big reversal to scrap the whole thing... unfortunately, beyond a few tweaks, I think we're stuck with it for awhile :mad:

[snakeyes132]

I've seen the tigerstripe products apology for the crappy uniform they designed for us before. I wish everyone in the AF who hates the uniform knew about this, I wonder if congress does? This is the first time I've posted on this site and it's great to see lots of people feel the same as me, hopefully that will help make the changes that are necessary to make the AF viable again.

[warr1or]

Just to defend the PT uniform, the reason we can wear T-shirts and shorts in mosquito infested environments is because the mosquito's are laughing at us so hard they can't bite to spread disease.

That, sir, wins quote of the month!

[mouse]

So lets see if I understand this "Airman Battle Uniform" thing it is going to look exactly like the BDU's however you won't have to shine the boots. Oh wait they are going to go back to the Black Boot for "messy" jobs. You won't have to iron it. Oh wait you can iron it if you choose to. And finally you will have one uniform that you wear in garrison and to deployments. Wait on more minute they are going to make one that has a cooler shirt but not cooler pants so you will only wear half a sweat suit. I have an idea how about everyone in the Air Force go to the online Uniform Idea page and submit what they think the uniform board can improve on because it worked for changing the boots it appears.

[snakeyes132]

I wish that would work, maybe they have a new uniform page. There were plenty of people when they were wear testing it that did that survey, and they didn't care. Look at some of the excuses on the AF uniform page on the portal. They explain every shortcoming in detail. AFSOC didn't want slanted pockets or Velcro. I can understand the Velcro, the Army doesn't even like that anymore, but if AFSOC didn't like it, why do they still wear ACU's, or Mod their ABU's? Everything on that page is total bull!

Like you said it worked for the black boots, maybe there is a new board that listens to us. But, unfortunately if we all right in and say scrap this piece of junk, I'm not sure they would take that too well. But that is what has to happen, scrap it.

I noticed the other day that Blackhawk makes a new pant with 4 tourniquets built into the pant. Get wounded just reach down and pull the zip cord. I wonder how long it will take for the Military to decide that this is a good idea.

[ConfusedAirman]

I noticed the other day that Blackhawk makes a new pant with 4 tourniquets built into the pant. Get wounded just reach down and pull the zip cord. I wonder how long it will take for the Military to decide that this is a good idea.

C'mon now - I can guarantee that only those Blackhawk employees who might have a need, and WHEN they might have a need, wear such pants - not every Blackhawk employee. The same applies to the military. Complain about the current ABU and make suggestions all you want, but don't get carried away recommending something that would be worthless on the vast majority of people, yet cost money better spent.

[snakeyes132]

First, I'm talking about the company Blackhawk, it sells tactical gear, I think you may have them confused with Blackwater.

Second, tell that to an electrician I know that almost died when he hit himself in the leg with a chainsaw at work.

Third, I'm just saying there are alot of great innovations out there, and the military takes too long to use them.

[DVIOUS300]

I don't know when it became taboo to have morale. and I don't think it's pilots making these decisions...it's the stuck up, nerd-ass, prick office-r's that work their way up from being that finance LT who liked to yell at Airmen for stupid stuff to get off - to a General who is political and so far distanced from the real world that they can't make logical decisions. Surround a person like that with a bunch of yes men who could suck the silver off an eagle and it's a dangerous combo.

Too many higher ups have lost their integrity and their abilities to make solid, common sense decisions.

I 'm retired and don't have to wear the ABU, but I do Love the above summary of the military decision makers. YOu'd have to be nuttier than a squirrel turd NOT to agree!

[exPACapt]

I was one of the original testers of the uniform. I got the pleasure of wearing the Tiger Stripe pattern. Our feedback was go to digital and more along the lines of the Marine and Army but have a different pattern. Ladies and gentlemen, here is one thing we have to get out of the mindset, with the way warfare is moving we DON'T need a woodland specific uniform. Warfare has changed. The war will not be faught in the open. It will be faught in the cities and streets of so-called civilization. Now if we decide to go to war with Venezeula or anyone that has lush vegetation then dust off the BDU pattern and put it back in production. Besides, for the majority of Airmen who deploy, who actually go outside the wire?

[exPACapt]

OK, I usually do my best to overlook typos & misspellings... but a PA Capt that can't spell fought and has rudimentary sentence structure skills... :rolleyes:

Makes it hard to accept the credibility of this post.

Crusty,
It is why we run spell check before we go to print on documents. How about if I make the sentence structure easier for you to follow. The new uniforms are needed but the procurement and testing process is a crap. Besides this is a post board. It is not like a writing a document to an 0-6 in which it is red-inked by everyone because they have to touch it.

[snakeyes132]

Has anyone noticed a war going on in Georgia, I think it is pretty green there. I really don't see anywhere for a half-assed blue tiger stripe to fit in. Not to mention why hasn't the rest of the world caught on and figured out that the best way to hide is wear a partially digitized blue tigerstripe uniform!

[CrustySMSgt]

Crusty,
It is why we run spell check before we go to print on documents. How about if I make the sentence structure easier for you to follow. The new uniforms are needed but the procurement and testing process is a crap. Besides this is a post board. It is not like a writing a document to an 0-6 in which it is red-inked by everyone because they have to touch it.

I deleted my post before I even read your response... my appologies for my lapse in manners. :(

[exPACapt]

Has anyone noticed a war going on in Georgia, I think it is pretty green there. I really don't see anywhere for a half-assed blue tiger stripe to fit in. Not to mention why hasn't the rest of the world caught on and figured out that the best way to hide is wear a partially digitized blue tigerstripe uniform!

We didn't go for the blue. The tiger pattern somewhat but not the blue. As long as it was digitized it didn't matter of the pattern. The point being the Army started after the Air Force designing a new uniform. They tested, received feedback and implented the uniform before the Air Force ever got theirs through testing.

[snakeyes132]

Well as long as you don't like the colors. :)
Anyway tigerstripe products gave various other designs that were shot down.
And the uniform isn't truly digital, it has too many wide spots of the same color.

[exPACapt]

Well as long as you don't like the colors. :)
Anyway tigerstripe products gave various other designs that were shot down.
And the uniform isn't truly digital, it has too many wide spots of the same color.

I don't like the color- do you know how many times I told, "You look like a smurf." We did shoot down some of the patterns. I did like the aspect of not having to put it the cleaners. A good wash and dry and it was good to go.

[snakeyes132]

Thank god the wash and wear is still holding on, when we went to the "it's ok to iron the stripes before you put them on crap" I thought oh go here we go again.

For the most part everyone I have seen hasn't done anything stupid with their uniforms yet. I think the black boot is dumb though.
1. You will have to change into green ones to leave the shop
2. The black looks crappy with the ABU
3. If you have to change the boots to leave work, why not have a crappy pair for the flightline and a nice pair to wear.
4. Doesn't everyone get issued boots by their unit when theirs wear out? I know CE does, please if you don't, fill me in, I really don't know.

[exPACapt]

I don't know why they didn't just go with the tan boots. They are in supply and on the shelves. Trust me, everyone is not given new boots. I know a couple of units build it into their budgets, but I am pretty sure others make you fight for your own. I know as an officer, we had to buy everything. We get one clothing allowance and then off you go. A new pair of boots- you pay for it. I never got to wear the new approved uniform. They kept delaying when it would hit the units. It was funny to see that I couldn't get a new ABU for a deployment, but they were all over the place in Transformers and Iron Man.

[CrustySMSgt]

Thank god the wash and wear is still holding on, when we went to the "it's ok to iron the stripes before you put them on crap" I thought oh go here we go again.

For the most part everyone I have seen hasn't done anything stupid with their uniforms yet. I think the black boot is dumb though.
1. You will have to change into green ones to leave the shop
2. The black looks crappy with the ABU
3. If you have to change the boots to leave work, why not have a crappy pair for the flightline and a nice pair to wear.
4. Doesn't everyone get issued boots by their unit when theirs wear out? I know CE does, please if you don't, fill me in, I really don't know.


For the most part I think the don't iron guidance is holding... I gotta say the "built in" creases do last! I did iron my stripes before I put them on., which was in Oct, and the uniform and the stripe still have the original crease.

I have seen some uniforms that really do look like they;ve been ironed... not blatant enough to call them on it... but they sure looked like they might have been. Also seen a few folks with the pockets sewn down, which I beleive is still a no-no. I heard from a friend that went to the Chief Leadership Course at the SNCOA a few months ago, and there was a Chief-select there who had his stuff all sewn down (and now I can't remember specifically, but I think he said it was ironed too) and the CMSAF lit the guy up pretty good!

I don't understand the boot issue either... not sure how the green boots soak up any more stuff than the desert boots ever did... and while it might not show up so much on the black boots, if the issue is stuff soaking in, it will still do that with leather boots.

Units that require steel toed boots are supposed to purchase your boots as PPE... but with budget issues, they often won't.

[exPACapt]

For the most part I think the don't iron guidance is holding... I gotta say the "built in" creases do last! I did iron my stripes before I put them on., which was in Oct, and the uniform and the stripe still have the original crease.

I have seen some uniforms that really do look like they;ve been ironed... not blatant enough to call them on it... but they sure looked like they might have been. Also seen a few folks with the pockets sewn down, which I beleive is still a no-no. I heard from a friend that went to the Chief Leadership Course at the SNCOA a few months ago, and there was a Chief-select there who had his stuff all sewn down (and now I can't remember specifically, but I think he said it was ironed too) and the CMSAF lit the guy up pretty good!

I don't understand the boot issue either... not sure how the green boots soak up any more stuff than the desert boots ever did... and while it might not show up so much on the black boots, if the issue is stuff soaking in, it will still do that with leather boots.

Units that require steel toed boots are supposed to purchase your boots as PPE... but with budget issues, they often won't.

I think they were aiming for the same type of look the Marines have with their boots. If you have seen them, they have their logo engraved into the boot. I do know they spent way too much money on the research. I am glad the guy got lit up. If he didn't he would set the standard going forward.

[CrustySMSgt]

I think they were aiming for the same type of look the Marines have with their boots. If you have seen them, they have their logo engraved into the boot. I do know they spent way too much money on the research. I am glad the guy got lit up. If he didn't he would set the standard going forward.

I agree with you... the desert boots look better, there was already inventory in place to immediately field them, and it wouldn't have forced boot manufacturers to now come up with an entirly new line of boots, the cost of which will of course be passed on to the consumer and tax payers...

[snakeyes132]

Crusty,
I've heard the same story about a SMSgt getting lit up by a CMSgt in PACAF because he put velcro on everything, sewed down his lapel, and put stitch witch in his sleeves to make creases. The CMSgt told him the uniform was unservicable and needed to be replaced.

From what I've been told the problem with the green boots is they turn tan anyway in the desert. I haven't worn mine yet in the desert, but i will say that I've had mine for about a year and they sure aren't sage anymore. They are more of a puke green color. But on that note i actually like the good sage colored boots when they are new, I guess they just need to find a way for the dye to last longer.

Thanks for filling me in, I guess it makes sense that you only get boots from your unit if they are steel toe. I guess I'm pretty spoiled by CE. They buy me uniforms too, they are also considered PPE for me.

Also as far as the wear life goes, I have a pair that I have been wearing for about a year and it's done, that one is going in the mobility bag. Not too bad though, I just got my clothing allowance, and i already had 2 other uniforms that I haven't really worn yet. I had heard that the wear life was supposed to be 6 months so I guess thats pretty good.

[CrustySMSgt]

Crusty,
I've heard the same story about a SMSgt getting lit up by a CMSgt in PACAF because he put velcro on everything, sewed down his lapel, and put stitch witch in his sleeves to make creases. The CMSgt told him the uniform was unservicable and needed to be replaced.

From what I've been told the problem with the green boots is they turn tan anyway in the desert. I haven't worn mine yet in the desert, but i will say that I've had mine for about a year and they sure aren't sage anymore. They are more of a puke green color. But on that note i actually like the good sage colored boots when they are new, I guess they just need to find a way for the dye to last longer.

Thanks for filling me in, I guess it makes sense that you only get boots from your unit if they are steel toe. I guess I'm pretty spoiled by CE. They buy me uniforms too, they are also considered PPE for me.

Also as far as the wear life goes, I have a pair that I have been wearing for about a year and it's done, that one is going in the mobility bag. Not too bad though, I just got my clothing allowance, and i already had 2 other uniforms that I haven't really worn yet. I had heard that the wear life was supposed to be 6 months so I guess thats pretty good.

Hadn't heard the boots were wearing quickly and fading... figures. :rolleyes:

I believe the wear life of the ABU was to be 12 months.

[Silver Fox]

Mine made it about.... nine.

[BRUWIN]

As a male Airman i have found the ABU to be a real head turner when I walk past a significant number of Army women. The uniform seems to really accentuate my glutes according to some of them. But I really think it's just a ruse so they can get me to store thier lipsticks in my pen pocket.

[Gunner007]

Well lets pretend for a moment that the tigerstripe is the greatest CAMO pattern in the world, for arguments sake. The design and layout sucks! Why is it the USAF ALWAYS feels the need to reinvent the wheel? I horse traded with an aussie in the desert and scored a set of their uniform pants and top and I ABSOLUTELY love them! They have blousing straps in the legs with adjustable cord locks, pockets have zippers, the fly has a zipper, the belt loops are huge, you can actually run a pistol or IER belt through them to hold up your holster instead of having to wear 2 belts! The pockets are roomy but not too big they balloon out and allow stuff in them to chaffe your leg! Its just an absolutely awesome design! It is a thicker material though which i didnt much like for summer wear but its almost the same thickness as the ABU.
We always want to reinvent the wheel when there are possibly better ideas fielded or floating around we could at least borrow from.
Dont get me started on how good Aussie MRE's are!!! They make ours look like dog food!

[Smeghead]

How about this for a radical idea ... why don't we look at what people in the region we're operating in are wearing? I don't see any South or North Koreans wearing gray/blue digital. It's a little bit green on the peninsula, maybe a woodland pattern could possibly work in that theater. Also don't see any Arab nations wearing ACU/ABU type color schemes. Hmmm, maybe the people who live there know what works for their environment. And as for material, when I was in Oman, the Omani Air Force had shirts made like football jerseys with all the little holes in them. Wow, that could work in say a hot environment?

[Silver Fox]

Well lets pretend for a moment that the tigerstripe is the greatest CAMO pattern in the world, for arguments sake. The design and layout sucks! Why is it the USAF ALWAYS feels the need to reinvent the wheel? I horse traded with an aussie in the desert and scored a set of their uniform pants and top and I ABSOLUTELY love them! They have blousing straps in the legs with adjustable cord locks, pockets have zippers, the fly has a zipper, the belt loops are huge, you can actually run a pistol or IER belt through them to hold up your holster instead of having to wear 2 belts! The pockets are roomy but not too big they balloon out and allow stuff in them to chaffe your leg! Its just an absolutely awesome design! It is a thicker material though which i didnt much like for summer wear but its almost the same thickness as the ABU.
We always want to reinvent the wheel when there are possibly better ideas fielded or floating around we could at least borrow from.
Dont get me started on how good Aussie MRE's are!!! They make ours look like dog food!


Yeah the Aussies have a really good uniform. And as funny as that pattern may look to some, it actually works very well.

[ChadRock]

I agree 100% about this so called "Battle Uniform" not being for the maintainers or the "outside the wire" men and women in our great Air Force. If the ABU is to be singled out and recognized out of a crowd as being exclusive uniform to an Air Force member, this too is a farce. Stationed and attached to a PRT (Provincial Reconstruction Team) with only Army for 10 months, most at first glance thought I was Special Ops when I rolled into various FOBs across Afghanistan. Then when they came over to investigate I was met with many questions and comments. None of the comments were good. After a few convoys and days of wearing the IBA for about 18 hours at a time, I soon realized that this uniform was going to quickly vanish into my plywood wall locker and wait there until it was time to go home or until someone higher up made it mandatory.

Even though the ACU (Army Combat Uniform) has a quicker wear-out time, they are exactly what the Air Force needs to issue to those of us that actually see and participate in a real combat theatre. Those who have been in the real AOR know how much KBR or homemade washers like a 6.5L turbo diesel heated water bottle, cared about the whole temperature of the water and type of detergent to use when washing these uniforms. I will have a permanent wear mark and rash where the neck of these uniforms has rubbed me in a not so awesome fashion. Get rid of the whole winter weight material, buttons, inside and useless pockets that we all cut out day one and add some Velcro and zippers….keep the nifty pant leg cell phone pocket and pen holder that will hold your "death before dishonor" 50 cal bullet though!

The next uniform approval committee should have to take an ILO (In Lieu Of), EET (Embedded Training Team) or PRT tasking, which most maintainers are assigned to these days, to Iraq or Afghanistan before they decide the whole Air Force is indeed “a Combat Airman” wearing an “Airman Battle Uniform!”

Go Army Air Corps!!!!!

[Picric acid]

http://www.tigerstripeproducts.com/airforcetiger.htm

If anyone hasn't read this, it's an apology from the manufacturer of the Airman Barracks Uniform.

If you work in an office billet you should have to wear blues, period. Sorry, but your a pogue and should get used to it. If you want to sleep in the mud next to me then cross train and you can wear cammies.
If you're a maintainer you get a flight suit of a different color from officers/pilots. Something that is nomex and not hot as hell but disguises grease stains . Fire Dept this is you also. You can wear a squadron cap again because those clit caps are dumb.

If your in a Combat related career feild (no AF, everyone is not a combat airman, you don't go off base every day so stop pretending your a bad ass and enjoy the DFAC) You can wear cammies. Anyone currently having a beret and EOD get these. I recommend ACU's since we've wasted enough money letting tards design uniforms that suck and the ACU is already established. Your precious huge shoulder targets eh rank would be velcro. If your one of those In lieu of people your can wear this in the desert but go back to your other uniform in garrison.

Important note: The navy has different uniforms for everyone and it has gotten ridiculous over time. Resist the urge to justify your job as a special one that needs it's own variation, special badge, etc.. That's the only way this works, more uniforms but not too many uniforms.

[USMC_8156]

http://www.tigerstripeproducts.com/airforcetiger.htm
If you work in an office billet you should have to wear blues, period. Sorry, but your a pogue and should get used to it.
So what? Airmen that work in an office should wear blues...why? Why can't they wear a professional military uniform that isn't uncomfortable as hell to wear?


If you want to sleep in the mud next to me then cross train and you can wear cammies.
Really. What mud do you sleep in?


If your in a Combat related career feild (no AF, everyone is not a combat airman, you don't go off base every day so stop pretending your a bad ass and enjoy the DFAC) You can wear cammies. Anyone currently having a beret and EOD get these. I recommend ACU's since we've wasted enough money letting tards design uniforms that suck and the ACU is already established. Your precious huge shoulder targets eh rank would be velcro. If your one of those In lieu of people your can wear this in the desert but go back to your other uniform in garrison.

Nice of you to give the rest of the Air Force permission to wear a different uniform. ACU's are ridiculous. Look at the Army thread on how much they hate them.


Important note: The navy has different uniforms for everyone and it has gotten ridiculous over time. Resist the urge to justify your job as a special one that needs it's own variation, special badge, etc.. That's the only way this works, more uniforms but not too many uniforms.

Not really. Coveralls or the standard work uniform with ball cap is basically it. Chiefs wear khakis, but that is changing on ship. Officers wear white. Are four uniforms difficult to categorize for you?

[Picric acid]

So what? Airmen that work in an office should wear blues...why? Why can't they wear a professional military uniform that isn't uncomfortable as hell to wear? Blues are the Class c uniform of the AF and are professional in apperance for one. The office types are comfortable in the freaking AC all day no matter what uniform they wear for two.
Really. What mud do you sleep in? A little patch inside patrol bases baker and millet over the mountains from COB speicher and south of Kirkuk. Until we got some nice shipping containers in and built our own beds from scrap lumber. You want a 10 digit grid for this mud hole or what? Do you know what MGRS is?



Nice of you to give the rest of the Air Force permission to wear a different uniform. ACU's are ridiculous. Look at the Army thread on how much they hate them. What better idea do you have? Wear is this magical, cheap pre-existing uniform of yours? Can I see it?


Not really. Coveralls or the standard work uniform with ball cap is basically it. Chiefs wear khakis, but that is changing on ship. Officers wear white. Are four uniforms difficult to categorize for you? Dude just look at this link and rethink your statement? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt maybe something changed recently but send some proof to back up your preposterous claim that the Navy doesn't have too many uniforms.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniforms_of_the_United_States_Navy

[USMC_8156]

Dude just look at this link and rethink your statement? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt maybe something changed recently but send some proof to back up your preposterous claim that the Navy doesn't have too many uniforms.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniforms_of_the_United_States_Navy

It may seem like it, but it really isn't too many uniforms. It's pretty much the same deal as us, except they have a winter and summer uniform. 99% of the time Sailors are in coveralls and the Chiefs and Officers in Khakis. I have to maintain four different Blues uniforms, three different Service uniforms, two different Camouflauge uniforms, and I also have a flight suit and coveralls. I've never felt it was a burden.

Anyways, I didn't mean to challenge your credentials. Where I was going was that the stars and bars seem to feel that the other 94% of the Air Force needs a more comfortable and practical uniform. Of course the dress uniforms will look "more professional." What I don't understand is your objection to wearing this new uniform that was designed for wear in the rear? Why MUST rear echelon be banned from wearing cammies? Seems like an old argument that your type never wins.

[Picric acid]

Okay okay REMF's like cammies, It was people in offices that brought this plague upon us. They tested this uniform on CCT/PJ teams in the states at Hurlbert and every single guy said it sucks. The rear guys loved it so thier votes out weighed the piddly 200 frontline airmen who actually needed camoflauge not denim. Are you an office type marine/airman? What would make you happy? What do you want in a uniform other than comfort and ease of care? Do you doubt a group of battle field airman could do a better job than this current travesty? How about that, we'll design and field a uniform for combat and you can wear it around the shop and out to Applebees. The AF did it backwards. I got no problem with you guys wearing cammies during the week, but blues should be in your rotation once a week or so.

My major goal would be that all the services have at least the same pattern so an Organized military can't pick Marines from soldiers from Airmen over a mile away. How do we accomplish this now that everyone has spent billions on thier teams new jerseys. What ever happened to one team one fight? My first post is an attempt to make everyone happy while remaining practical. Maintainers hate having to keep utilities pressed but also don't want to look like a dirt magnet. Those in the field want functional pockets to put wiz-bang gear in and don't want to get shot at because thier blue uniform stands out in the brown desert.

[USMC_8156]

Okay okay REMF's like cammies, It was people in offices that brought this plague upon us. They tested this uniform on CCT/PJ teams in the states at Hurlbert and every single guy said it sucks. The rear guys loved it so thier votes out weighed the piddly 200 frontline airmen who actually needed camoflauge not denim. Are you an office type marine/airman? What would make you happy? What do you want in a uniform other than comfort and ease of care? Do you doubt a group of battle field airman could do a better job than this current travesty? How about that, we'll design and field a uniform for combat and you can wear it around the shop and out to Applebees. The AF did it backwards. I got no problem with you guys wearing cammies during the week, but blues should be in your rotation once a week or so.

My major goal would be that all the services have at least the same pattern so an Organized military can't pick Marines from soldiers from Airmen over a mile away. How do we accomplish this now that everyone has spent billions on thier teams new jerseys. What ever happened to one team one fight? My first post is an attempt to make everyone happy while remaining practical. Maintainers hate having to keep utilities pressed but also don't want to look like a dirt magnet. Those in the field want functional pockets to put wiz-bang gear in and don't want to get shot at because thier blue uniform stands out in the brown desert.

Which is why, to my understanding, Airmen who are "in the field" do not wear ABU's. No, I'm not an "office type Marine." I agree the current uniform sucks as far as a fighting uniform, but to my understanding that's not its' purpose. It's a stateside uniform specifically for REMF. Which, in my eyes, is fine.

We, of course all wear the same uniform, regardless :cool:

[Picric acid]

Exactly, we wear the nomex ACU's for the most part in country while off base. ACU's are a copy of the marines digitals of course and No, ACU's aren't perfect but they're the best solution to date. When I asked the question "Why didn't we just use the ACU uniform to a 2 star" I got dirty looks and a pathetic answer. "Well , from 25 meters you really can't tell the difference between ABU's and ACU's." Exactly sir, exactly.

[USMC_8156]

Exactly, we wear the nomex ACU's for the most part in country while off base. ACU's are a copy of the marines digitals of course and No, ACU's aren't perfect but they're the best solution to date. When I asked the question "Why didn't we just use the ACU uniform to a 2 star" I got dirty looks and a pathetic answer. "Well , from 25 meters you really can't tell the difference between ABU's and ACU's." Exactly sir, exactly.

ABU's are like MARPAT except...they don't camoflauge you against anything but a grey and white tank...and everything is velcro.

(stolen from the Army forum)
"Where are the infidels?!"
"RRIIIIIPP"
bang.

[Picric acid]

Marpat cammies are good, the only complaint I've heard is they are a little thick, but that is what makes them durable...so WTF? The USMC had to copyright the pattern with those EGA's everywhere didn't they. You did read the link I posted on pg 8 right? The apology, check out the pattern the manufacture tried to push on the clueless Sirs. It would have been good camo for both woodland and desert. But what do those pesky textile engineers know that pilots don't? I just realized I've wasted hours of my life with this BS. I got started curiously looking to see if the rest of the AF was complaining about this topic and it lead me here. Talking to a marine who has no bearing on any part of the AF and probably the Marine Corps. about uniforms neither of us will ever wear. I'm gonna go smoke my pistol now, later.

[Gunjink]

Exactly, we wear the nomex ACU's for the most part in country while off base. ACU's are a copy of the marines digitals of course and No, ACU's aren't perfect but they're the best solution to date. When I asked the question "Why didn't we just use the ACU uniform to a 2 star" I got dirty looks and a pathetic answer. "Well , from 25 meters you really can't tell the difference between ABU's and ACU's." Exactly sir, exactly.

Did you ask him how many meters away one can tell the difference between DCU boots and ABU boots? He just doesn't get it does he? The dirty looks you recieved meant that you touched a nerve. A confident answer would have been delivered in a more confident tone. The problem is that he knows they totally screwed this thing up. I mean...blue in a uniform for the color blue's sake!?! This topic drives me insane.:mad:

[warr1or]

I was initially totally opposed to the ABU's...I think they still have a lot of problems, but now I'm just "meh" about it. I was around some Army guys a few weeks ago and I'll be honest the ABU's and ACU's in mixed company pretty much look the same, even with the tiger stripes.

Picric I feel for ya, I posted the company response on here when it first came out and I was lambasted (not by any present company in this thread). I tried to argue that we should have gone with a camo pattern that resembled stuff in nature...but I also understand why they went with the current pattern - because it's cheaper to buy extra crap like helmet covers and vests.

[warr1or]

I was initially totally opposed to the ABU's...I think they still have a lot of problems, but now I'm just "meh" about it. I was around some Army guys a few weeks ago and I'll be honest the ABU's and ACU's in mixed company pretty much look the same, even with the tiger stripes.

Picric I feel for ya, I posted the company response on here when it first came out and I was lambasted (not by any present company in this thread). I tried to argue that we should have gone with a camo pattern that resembled stuff in nature...but I also understand why they went with the current pattern - because it's cheaper to buy extra crap like helmet covers and vests.

[Gunner007]

I thought when all the services started designing their own patterns maybe someone was thinking security. I foolishly thought that the uniforms would have been patented and their issue controlled to military members of said branch. When they wear out take them to supply and exchange them for new ones, this way you could easily tell who belonged in your AO and who didnt. If said patterns were not available on the commercial market wouldnt it make it harder for infiltraters to get their hands on them and possibly use them for a nefarious purpose?
Silly me, nope, just hawk them on every gear vendor website and let a great chance at improving security slip away. Now anyone can buy them. I suppose in all it doesnt matter but i was trying to think outside the box as to why a new uniform was so important after 9/11. Foolish me, trying to make some form of logical reason for what turned out to be a failure of epic proportions on every angle!

[warr1or]

Damn Gunner, good point - and too true. I actually wound up purchasing mine because (lol) I couldn't get them at the local BX/clothing sales, and they never confirmed my identity...

[DeadGeneration]

Being a new airman, I was issued ABUs in basic training. I wore them all through tech school and only recently switched to BDUs. I made the switch because ABUs are not approved for my AFSC, Fire Protection. Since having to wear both uniforms I'd say they both have their pro's and con's. I like having a sharp uniform, and while the BDUs look better at roll call, the ABUs maintain their appearance throughout the shift.

The ABUs are mis-matched in color, especially coming from basic training where they were issued without us being able to select decent matches. However, the BDUs fade horrible and those rings made by pressing the buttons looks bad. The BDUs have been around long enough that all sorts of modifications exist. However, I see SF wearing Army pattern holsters and armor over their ABUs which draws a crooked eye.

Also, I have heard rumor that the ABU pattern is being abolished and the army pattern is going to be used.

[VFFSSGT]

Someone call the rumor police! I think you can figure out what to do with that rumor...

[Gunner007]

Being a new airman, I was issued ABUs in basic training. I wore them all through tech school and only recently switched to BDUs. I made the switch because ABUs are not approved for my AFSC, Fire Protection. Since having to wear both uniforms I'd say they both have their pro's and con's. I like having a sharp uniform, and while the BDUs look better at roll call, the ABUs maintain their appearance throughout the shift.

The ABUs are mis-matched in color, especially coming from basic training where they were issued without us being able to select decent matches. However, the BDUs fade horrible and those rings made by pressing the buttons looks bad. The BDUs have been around long enough that all sorts of modifications exist. However, I see SF wearing Army pattern holsters and armor over their ABUs which draws a crooked eye.

Also, I have heard rumor that the ABU pattern is being abolished and the army pattern is going to be used.


I am not sure why they allow BDU's and not ABU's because both are typically a NYCO blend! I myself buy 100% cotton BDU's because i love cotton and its absorbent properties help fight heat rashes in hot climates! There is a little trick though to keeping your BDU's from fading or any clothing for that matter that is cotton. My granny taught me this as a kid! When you bring the clothing home from the store, put it in a tub or bucket of some sort and soak it in 100% vinegar over night. Vinegar will set the dyes in the fabric and prevent fading. It works really well on red clothing so it wont bleed in the wash on ruin other clothes. It also removes any type of vegetable stains, like ketchup or grape jelly. I washed a can of skoal in my shorts once and stained them really good, lucky i found out before i dried them, i put them in the sink and soaked them in vinegar and then re washed them, then entire stain came out!
Now i wear my flightsuits for flying but my BDU's when i am not. I can typically get about 2 years worth out of one set of BDU's before they fade or wear thin. For my garrison utilities i have velcro in the shirt breast pockets and all my pockets are staked down (but usable) except the pants back pockets. I can literally take it out of the dryer and hang it up and wear it to work and everything but the collar looks dry cleaned. Its definitely not a deployment utility but it works awesome in garrison!

[DeadGeneration]

Good pointers. We wear the 100% cotton BDUs.

[EDWARDW4]

However, I see SF wearing Army pattern holsters and armor over their ABUs which draws a crooked eye.

You DO realize that this was planned all along; to utilize the Army's ACU pattern on common items like helmet covers, body armor covers, etc?

[DeadGeneration]

Nope, didn't know that.

[Gunjink]

You DO realize that this was planned all along; to utilize the Army's ACU pattern on common items like helmet covers, body armor covers, etc?

Sure, but the added "Blue for the color Blue's sake," is friggen crazy. A combat uniform that shows "school spirit?" Those guys should be court martialed...

[TheShaggy]

Yeah, I got about 5 pages into this thread and couldn't go any farther. I'll give a couple of quick quick example of the crap going on over in the AOR and at home. One of my pilots volunteered to fly with another unit over in OIF. He told me that he went to the chow hall at The Deid and a CMSgt came up to him and scolded him for the zippers on his legs had to be zipped down. Didn't council him, scolded him. I asked the LT if the Chief even saluted him first. He said, "Now that I think about it, no, the SOB didn't salute me." Guess this Chief thought he was above customs and courtesies while scolding an officer.

Another example was a time that I was eating my lunch in the food court at the BX. I had the sleeves pushed up on my flight suit to keep the sleeves out of the Chinese food I was trying to enjoy. A fellow TSgt comes up to me and tells me I need to push my sleeves down. I informed him that it is just temporary while I eat my food. He didn't budge. So I dropped my arms and the sleeves came down on their own. I suggested that if he is going to enforce the standards then he should follow them himself. Boots looked like crap, BDU's like like they were shoved in a suit case for a year. Do you know what his response was? "You don't wear BDU's so why should you care?" I found it ironic that he said that since he doesn't wear a flight suit.

I wear my ABU's most of the time when I know for sure I'm not going to fly. I just hate it when I do wear the bag and I feel like a target for all of the non-flying enlisted people out there.

This comic just pretty much sums up how our AF has become

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shaggymet/jobpride-1.jpg

[JohnnyReb]

Sorry to hear about the chinese food incident. If some professionals spent more time worrying about their OWN affairs and duties, then they wouldn't have the time to nitpick such small fish.

[VFFSSGT]

:D The comic block says it all...

[Filterbing]

Not everyone routinely goes "outside the wire" but everyone has the potential to be in that situation. I feel the ABU is a terrible design and a has an even worse color pallette. The marines have the right idea, the colors should match your enviroment.

Being issued this uniform is like being handed a rifle and being told,

We don't have ammo and if we did this thing doesn't shoot straight. You won't use it often, but when you do your life will depend on it. Hey check it out though, there's a hidden pocket in the stock!

[Filterbing]

I'm pretty sure the CENTAF rules allow your shirt to be untucked while performing physical activity... so there shouldn't ahve been an issue...

That's the rule when i was there last year but it didn't stop people from constantly harrasing others about policy.

I saw rules nitpicked on shoe type. Do crocs qualify as sandles? (yes) sandles=no socks / shoes=socks

what color backpack is allowed in PT gear?

The desert man-purse (no PTgear pockets, if you've been there you know) location on your person, size and color

not that your shirt is untucked but it is not tucked in far enough (swear to god this happened often)

The icing on the cake? a female SNCO that would tuck other females shirts in for them (this ended baddly for her)

All these were PT gear obsessions at al udeid summer (camp)2007. So I can see why someone would stop a runner with a half untucked shirt.

[BigBaze]

That's the rule when i was there last year but it didn't stop people from constantly harrasing others about policy.

I saw rules nitpicked on shoe type. Do crocs qualify as sandles? (yes) sandles=no socks / shoes=socks

what color backpack is allowed in PT gear?

The desert man-purse (no PTgear pockets, if you've been there you know) location on your person, size and color

not that your shirt is untucked but it is not tucked in far enough (swear to god this happened often)

The icing on the cake? a female SNCO that would tuck other females shirts in for them (this ended baddly for her)

All these were PT gear obsessions at al udeid summer (camp)2007. So I can see why someone would stop a runner with a half untucked shirt.

I am sure the policy is there in black and white but you will always have those who feel it is in their right to create their own, to satisfy their own "pet peeves" which I cannot STAND

[kwood]

The chow hall inspectors downrange are what kill me.... example I was in the AOR a couple months ago, and just got off a 14 hour shift on the flightline, I get to the chowhall on the dorm side of the base and get stopped in the middle of the chow line by a Chief and she says to me "airman" you need to go back to your room and change your uniform you can't walk around dirty like this... I did 6 tire changes and was crawling around cramped compatments all day so my pants had a lot of black dust and what not on them. She actually made me leave the chow hall, I went back to my room a little lil tempered and changed into a just washed uniform that had the same stains as the previous although not as bad, i walked back in and got into line, she stops me again and asked where I worked and my Shirts name. I obliged and got my food to go, the next day my shirt pulled me in off the line to talk with this Chief, I walked in ready for an ass chewing, But to my surprise the AMXS commander was also there and preceeded to hand the chief her ass, he then told me to go ahead and go to supply and get a couple new sets of pants. I get there at the end of my shift and give them my letter for the pants, and the girl goes to the back, and brings non other than the Chief that yelled at me the day before, she then tells me, that they are quote "currently out of pants" I had to laugh at the situation and found it ironic that the Chief yelled at me when she knew they couldn't fix the problem to begin with. I've found that this thing happens a lot downrange. Just my lil tid bit tho.

[lofty1380]

you air force people should stop whining about your new uniform , try humping around iraq with 60 lbs of gear on your torso everyday and looking like a big puke green weenie at the same time, the uniform that we in the army have to wear only camoflauges us if we are lying on a gravel road other than that its useless, and get a haircut you hippies, also you guys only have to get a new jacket for your class A uniform.
not a whole new class A from top to bottom like i do

also two things the air force needs to train on 1. how to read a map 2. rifle markmanship
if i have to go find anymore air fag guys that get separated from a convoy with one M16 and four bullets
i swear to heaven that i will all shoot you in the foot so you guys can all go home and stop whining all the time and PAY ATTENTION TO YOUR SURROUNDINGS MORONS






CAV FOR LIFE HOO-AHH

to exPACapt

* AMENDING: 1. its not the gear as much as the airman that whine while in iraq and more to the point its that we dont blend in to the enviroment .
2. show me a airman with a high and tight and i will shave my head bald and wear a pink bikini .
4. ask for more ammo , bullets are free lives are not .
5. i do play nice and i do understand we are a team , but i am tired of hearing the whining from 90% of the airman we baby sit
and the airforce doesnt bring us everything the navy brings us everything exept the mail and most class nine ( medical stuff)
and i concede the R&R and medvac point but that is airman doing the mission that they signed up for the 10% i did not mention
and they love it and proud of it .

[exPACapt]

Lofty,
Let me first say thanks for your service, but how about a few things from your end-
1. you stop whining about humping around Iraq with 60lb of gear. The last time I checked, it was part of the job description if you signed up to join the Army.
2. There are a few people who push the limit on the hair regs but by and large most guys I knew where either bald or kept it very very very low.
3. It was not all about a new jacket. Just as you guys, the Air Force got an entire uniform change minus the entire new class A's. The one thing I can give the Army credit for is they implemented their uniform faster and with less headache, but they maybe due to the fact they don't listen too much to the Soldiers and give them what they want them to have for the fight.
4. We can do a better job of readiing maps and markmanship but last time I checked, when didn't think we would be doing ILO missions as well. And if we have one M 16 and four bullets its because that's what were issues usually by an Army clerk.
5. And I would strongly suggest you learn how to play nice but if I remember correctly who is your ride out that place and brings you food and equipment. God forbide if something wrong happens and you get hurt, how do you think you will get to Germany for medical attention? I bet they are all MORONS until it is time to take R&R or go home then they are your new best friend.
So we will take the rant just as you will take it from a brother or sister. Because when it is all said and done, we are still in it TOGETHER and the terrorist doesn't distinguish between an Army, Air Force, Navy or Marine uniform. You are an American and that is all that matters.

[TheShaggy]

Last I checked hight and tights weren't required to be in the military. I will never have a high and tight a look like a freakin retard. Who do you think Muhammad Jihad will go after first, the guy that looks like a normal person or the Hooah retard with the retarded buzz cut?

[lofty1380]

i would rather wear a high and tight and be in reg's than look like a dirty hippie

[TheShaggy]

i would rather wear a high and tight and be in reg's than look like a dirty hippie

My hair is never out of regs. I know the regs, follow them, and enforce them. But I don't expect my Airmen to go all extreme with the clippers. I'm happy as long as myself and my Airmen are with in regs and last I saw the regs didn't make high and tight manditory. Plus, I've seen Army folks that had their hair way out of regs when mine was well within.

[BigBaze]

The chow hall inspectors downrange are what kill me.... example I was in the AOR a couple months ago, and just got off a 14 hour shift on the flightline, I get to the chowhall on the dorm side of the base and get stopped in the middle of the chow line by a Chief and she says to me "airman" you need to go back to your room and change your uniform you can't walk around dirty like this... I did 6 tire changes and was crawling around cramped compatments all day so my pants had a lot of black dust and what not on them. She actually made me leave the chow hall, I went back to my room a little lil tempered and changed into a just washed uniform that had the same stains as the previous although not as bad, i walked back in and got into line, she stops me again and asked where I worked and my Shirts name. I obliged and got my food to go, the next day my shirt pulled me in off the line to talk with this Chief, I walked in ready for an ass chewing, But to my surprise the AMXS commander was also there and preceeded to hand the chief her ass, he then told me to go ahead and go to supply and get a couple new sets of pants. I get there at the end of my shift and give them my letter for the pants, and the girl goes to the back, and brings non other than the Chief that yelled at me the day before, she then tells me, that they are quote "currently out of pants" I had to laugh at the situation and found it ironic that the Chief yelled at me when she knew they couldn't fix the problem to begin with. I've found that this thing happens a lot downrange. Just my lil tid bit tho.


Happens all the time in the AOR, and they wonder why our airmen have lost faith in leadership. If you are a SNCO or an officer and have nothing better to do then camp outside the DFAC playing fashion police, harassing those that are actually carrying out the mission, you really shouldn't have come to the AOR in the first place and in my mind took up a spot on the rotator that could have been filled by oh, I don't know...someone that could actually contribute to the mission.

[JD2780]

Thats why I'm glad to be TACP. It may not be right, but I think logically for myself and my airman. If I'm with army I wear ACU's and press on. I've had some dumba$$ shirts and Os that no idea what I do for living or how I live when I actually leave the wire. On the other hand I have had several SNCOs come to me and applaud me for doing what I can to protect my airman regardless of what the other leadership says. To all the other people pissed about the ABU there is pleanty of company. Most of us hate it regardless of job. However we're all in the AF so in 2011 we'll all be wearing it when we're in garrison. Good luck with all of you!!!!

[Combat correspondent]

Lofty,

I agree with some of what you said but disagree with a lot too.

First and foremost, please describe an instance you saw Airmen outside the wire with an M-16 and four rounds. I always had 31 in the M-4 and 270 on my person. I also like to keep a shotty in my pack when I can. I've never seen or even heard of anyone carrying 4 rounds outside - I call BS on that malarkey.

On the other hand, I can see your frustration. I, like you, get tired of humping 80 lbs of crap - and I also have to hump my camera, lens kit and back ups. I'm AF. Like you, whenever I pass through an Air Force area in the AOR and see the security forces dudes and others chilling under some shade with their feet kicked up, sunglasses on ---- literally chillin' out, I get extremely frustrated. Mostly, it pisses me off because I know these same dudes will have "war" stories to tell when they get home - funny shit to me :)

As far as uniforms, I think the ABU is a piece of sh!t! I also think the ACU is even more a piece of sh!t---neither is tactical and neither serves a purpose in combat. DCUs were better and didn't need to be upgraded. In any regard, I always blend with who I am covering at the time. During my last deployment, I wore ABUs at times, ACUs at times, desert MARPAT at times, ACU flight suits at times, and even Woodland Green MARPAT when I was with the ETT guys. Gotta be a chameleon and not stand out - that's the key to survival. BUT, of all those different uniforms, I can truly say the ACU and ABU suck equally and are both ineffective. My 2 cents.

On the uni

[Smeghead]

During my last deployment, I wore ABUs at times, ACUs at times, desert MARPAT at times, ACU flight suits at times, and even Woodland Green MARPAT when I was with the ETT guys.

I'm gonna call bullshit on that. MARPAT has never been authorized for Air Force to wear. So either you're full of shit or you just think you're above the regs and can wear whatever the hell YOU deem appropriate. Carry also, it would appear--a PA with a shotgun? Gimme an F'in break. Now who's got war stories?

Funny thing about the internet, my last deployment I wore Stromtrooper armor and carried a minigun with 8,000,000,000,000,091 rounds. There, I said it on the Internet so it must be true.

I find myself answering so many of your threads because you're just so full of it.

[Combat correspondent]

I'm gonna call bullshit on that. MARPAT has never been authorized for Air Force to wear. So either you're full of shit or you just think you're above the regs and can wear whatever the hell YOU deem appropriate. Carry also, it would appear--a PA with a shotgun? Gimme an F'in break. Now who's got war stories?

Funny thing about the internet, my last deployment I wore Stromtrooper armor and carried a minigun with 8,000,000,000,000,091 rounds. There, I said it on the Internet so it must be true.

I find myself answering so many of your threads because you're just so full of it.

Awesome story Smeg. Thanks for sharing. Of course, what you don't know, you don't know, I guess. A fellow coworker (SrA) of mine also owns two sets of MARPAT and also carried a shottie---- don't know what is authorized and what is not. In fact, for that matter, I don't think ACUs or authorized. Ever worked around SOF forces? Seen what they wear? Authorized doesn't mean a whole lot when you are living out there and wanting to get back. If you've ever spent any amount of time away from a FOB, you'd know that more often than not, people don't even wear uniforms, rather Flak and Kevlar over their PTs.

In any regard, thanks for sharing the storm trooper story.

[Combat correspondent]

I was born on a mountain top in Tennessee and killed myself a bear when I was only 3. Hee, hee....couldn't resist.

[Smeghead]

Awesome story Smeg. Thanks for sharing. Of course, what you don't know, you don't know, I guess. A fellow coworker (SrA) of mine also owns two sets of MARPAT and also carried a shottie---- don't know what is authorized and what is not. In fact, for that matter, I don't think ACUs or authorized. Ever worked around SOF forces? Seen what they wear? Authorized doesn't mean a whole lot when you are living out there and wanting to get back. If you've ever spent any amount of time away from a FOB, you'd know that more often than not, people don't even wear uniforms, rather Flak and Kevlar over their PTs.

In any regard, thanks for sharing the storm trooper story.

UNCLASSIFIED//

UNCLAS

251450Z AUG 05

FROM: HQ AF WASHINGTON DC//DP//

TO: AL 8106
AL ALPERSCOM

SUBJECT: AIR FORCE WEAR OF THE ARMY COMBAT UNIFORM (ACU)

1. THE PURPOSE OF THIS MESSAGE IS TO ANNOUNCE IMPLEMENTING INSTRUCTIONS ON THE WEAR OF THE ACU ENSEMBLE. POLICY CONTAINED IN THIS MESSAGE IS EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY.

2. INDIVIDUALS AUTHORIZED: BATTLEFIELD AIRMEN (TACTICAL AIR CONTROL PARTY, COMBAT CONTROL TEAM, PARARESCUE, BATTLEFIELD WEATHER) AND AIR LIAISON OFFICERS ARE AUTHORIZED TO WEAR THE ACU WHEN DEPLOYED TO A CONTINGENCY THEATER WHILE OPERATING WITH, ATTACHED TO, OR IN DIRECT SUPPORT OF AN ARMY OR SPECIAL OPERATIONS UNIT WEARING THE ACU. THESE INDIVIDUALS ARE AUTHORIZED TO WEAR THE ACU WHEN TRANSITING TO AND FROM THE DEPLOYED THEATER. AIR FORCE INDIVIDUALS ARE PROHIBITED FROM WEARING THE ACU AT HOME STATION OR DURING TRAINING/EXERCISES CONDUCTED OUTSIDE OF A CONTINGENCY THEATER.

3. WEAR POLICY: INDIVIDUALS WILL WEAR SUBDUED NAMETAPE / US AIR FORCE TAPES (FIVE INCHES IN LENGTH AND WORN IMMEDIATELY ABOVE AND PARALLEL WITH THE TOP OF THE SLANTED CHEST POCKET FLAPS), MODIFIED GORTEX JACKET RANK INSIGNIA (CENTERED ON THE FRONT HOOK AND LOOP-FACE PAD OF THE ACU COAT), OCCUPATIONAL / AERONAUTICAL BADGES, AND FLAG / SHOULDER-SLEEVE INSIGNIA (SAME METHODOLOGY AS THE DIRECT SUPPORT ARMY UNIT). ALL ITEMS WILL BE AFFIXED TO THE UNIFORM USING HOOK AND LOOP (VELCROED). INDIVIDUALS WILL WEAR TAN BOOTS AND T-SHIRTS. IN ADDITION TO THE KEVLAR HELMET AND APPROPRIATE BERET, INDIVIDUALS MAY ALSO WEAR THE SAME ACU PATROL CAP, ACU SUN HAT, OR MICRO BLACK FLEECE CAP AS THE ARMY UNIT THEY ARE IN DIRECT SUPPORT OF IS WEARING. FOR OUTER GARMENTS, INDIVIDUALS MAY WEAR PARKA, COLD WEATHER (GORTEX JACKET WITH ACU UNIVERSAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN), TROUSERS, COLD WEATHER (GORTEX WITH ACU UNIVERSAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN), AND APPROPRIATE BA ISSUED ACCESSORIES (E.G KNEE PADS, ELBOW PADS, ETC.). WHEN BODY ARMOR IS WORN OVER THE ACU, INDIVIDUALS WILL AFFIX NAMETAPE AND MODIFIED GORTEX JACKET RANK INSIGNIA USING HOOK AND LOOP.

4. CARE POLICY: THE FOLLOWING INSTRUCTIONS MUST BE FOLLOWED WHEN CARING FOR THE ACU IN ORDER TO MAXIMIZE THE SERVICE LIFE AND MAINTAIN OPTIMUM PERFORMANCE: INDIVIDUALS WILL NOT STARCH THE ACU UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE. THE USE OF STARCH, SIZING, AND ANY PROCESS THAT INVOLVES DRY-CLEANING OR A STEAM PRESS WILL ADVERSELY AFFECT THE TREATMENTS AND DURABILITY OF THE UNIFORM AND IS NOT AUTHORIZED. WASH IN COLD WATER AND MILD DETERGENT CONTAINING NO OPTICAL BRIGHTENERS OR BLEACH. TUMBLE DRY AT LOW HEAT (NOT TO EXCEED 130 DEGREES FAHRENHEIT). REMOVE IMMEDIATELY FROM THE DRYER AND FOLD FLAT OR PLACE ON A RUSTPROOF HANGER TO ENSURE HEAT FROM THE DRYER DOES NOT SET WRINKLES. TO DRIP DRY, REMOVE FROM THE WASHER/WATER AND PLACE ON A RUSTPROOF HANGER. DO NOT WRING OR TWIST.

5. THIS POLICY WILL REMAIN IN EFFECT UNTIL THE NEW AIR FORCE UNIFORM IS AVAILABLE AND MEETS MISSION REQUIREMENTS.

6. USE OF UNIT/CONTINGENCY FUNDS IS AUTHORIZED FOR THE PURCHASE OF THE ACU.

7. EXCEPTIONS TO THIS POLICY MUST BE VALIDATED BY THE COMAFFOR TO AF/DP.

8. AF/DP POC IS SMSGT DANA ATHNOS, AF/DPDFC.


//SIGNED//
ROGER A. BRADY
Lieutenant General, USAF
Deputy Chief of Staff, Personnel
UNCLAS

It was rescinded when the ABU was released and then quietly reversed when the lack of fire retardance on the ABU was realized.

Yeah I've worked around SOF, they wear whatever the hell they want. You are not SOF, no matter how many times you recite the Marine creed before bed.

I travelled all over Iraq and Afghanistan last deployment. I saw Air Force in ABU, DCU, ACU, two piece ACU flight suits and tan flight suits. Not once did I see Air Force in MARPAT, not even the PJs or TACPs I ran in to. So you're the only one, well you and your buddy apparently.

[Combat correspondent]

Please explain why they make metal subdued collar Air Force rank for MARPAT? I don't know the reg - and didn't know it for ACU either. But, I do know this...military clothing installations in the AOR sell AF units MARPAT and associated AF rank - wonder why?

[Smeghead]

Dude, I already conceded. You had special permission from Gen Moseley to wear WTF you want, I get it. You win.

So you're the only one, well you and your buddy apparently.

You got to run around the desert wearing your old Marine uniforms. Awesome. Proud of you. Tell me, why did you leave the MC? You come to the Air Force bitching about slack it is, how it's not like the MC, why don't you Foxtrot Oscar back there then?

[BRUWIN]

What the hell is MARPAT anyway? Is that the Marine uniform? Do they come in XXX-Large for Air Force personnel?

[Nickymaz]

What the hell is MARPAT anyway? Is that the Marine uniform? Do they come in XXX-Large for Air Force personnel?

Yes, it is the Marine Uniform. I'm sure the can make them big enough for the USAF!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARPAT

[Nickymaz]

I wanted to throw in my two cents. I am an officer currently serving on a JET deployment in Iraq. My job keeps me in my office but I did go through a month of Combat Skills Training (CST) at Ft. Dix.

During CST we wore the ABU and I can say this uniform is in no way, shape or form a tactical uniform. The thickness of uniform made it very uncomfortable, even though it wasn't that hot in NJ (low 80's was as hot as it got) the addition of IBA made sure we were all drenched in sweat by the end of the day. One person in our class was in the Navy and they wore the ACU. That uniform allowed them to close their collar when wearing IBA which makes it a lot more comfortable. The fabric is a lot lighter and breathable.

One issue with the ABU is the pockets. When you are wearing full IBA with a drop-down leg holster for your M-9 you only have access to two pockets.

Another big issue I have is the cold-weather gear. At CST we recieved a huge bag of cold-weather gear from the Army. It had enough liners, jackets, fleeces etc so you could walk to the freaking North Pole! The Air Force gives us one jacket (the APECs) and a liner. Granted I work in an office in Norther Iraq but I know a lot of people in my job who are outside the wire, working in very austere bases and some are deployed to Afghanistan where it gets really cold! The AF needs to work on this and give us more options besides one jacket. The Army gear has several jackets, fleeces and liners to choose from so people can be comfortable.

Also, why does the AF have some fobia of fleece outergarments?

Another thing I don't like about the ABUs is the lack of patches. The ACUs let people wear their unit patches with velcro. In fact, I have noticed the the ACUs barrow a lot of features from the flight suite.

Anyway, the ABU is an okay uniform for sitting behind a desk in a climate controlled enviroment. But it is NOT a tactical uniform.

[Combat correspondent]

What the hell is MARPAT anyway? Is that the Marine uniform? Do they come in XXX-Large for Air Force personnel?

:) Hell yeah they do! Thats funny...I am seriously Lol right now, so much my wife came in to check on me ;)

[Combat correspondent]

Anyway, the ABU is an okay uniform for sitting behind a desk in a climate controlled enviroment. But it is NOT a tactical uniform.

How right you are! On the ABU and ACU - you'd think after decades of being in the desert the DCU would have evolved into something resembling a shade of tan - but no!!!!! Gray (and when you get closer you can see its an off shade of either green or blue)!!!! Fantastic! Tactical as hell and effective as Air Conditioning in Greenland!

[Combat correspondent]

Tell me, why did you leave the MC? You come to the Air Force bitching about slack it is, how it's not like the MC, why don't you Foxtrot Oscar back there then?

I don't bitch about the Air Force! I try to make what ever changes are in my "realm" to improve upon it. And, I'll have you know I am not trying to improve things in my "realm" because I hate the Air Force - on the contrary. I consider myself a professional Airman and have a vested interest in seeing our force succeed - not be engulfed by the Army. We are better than them and need to start acting like it.

Excuse me if I lead you to believe I don't like our Air Force - not the case. I love it! Thanks.

And to answer your question, I left the Corps because I was led to believe I'd be a shoe in for an enlisted aircrew job in the AF - pretty hard to come by in the Corps. Wasn't the case and, due to my high scores, they sent me to PA school. Semper Gumby!

[Nickymaz]

How right you are! On the ABU and ACU - you'd think after decades of being in the desert the DCU would have evolved into something resembling a shade of tan - but no!!!!! Gray (and when you get closer you can see its an off shade of either green or blue)!!!! Fantastic! Tactical as hell and effective as Air Conditioning in Greenland!

Yeah, the colors dont make a whole lot of sense to me either. Why are my four sets of ABUs all different colors! I have one set thats more blue-ish, one set of dark gray, one set lighter gray, and the tops and bottoms never match. I hope we get this fixed soon b/c it looks rediculous.

The gray color of the ACU/ABU makes sense when you consider most og the fighting in OIF takes place in urban areas. But mixing in some green would be nice because central/northern Iraq and eastern Afghanistan have a lot of green.

The thing that gets is the idea that one uniform will fit every contingency, well the real world isn't like that. The Marines realize that and have a desert shade and a woodland shade. I have even seen pictures of Marines in Afghanistan wearing the woodland shade b/c it matches the background in eastern Afghanistan.

[CMSBROWN]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Lofty,

I agree with some of what you said but disagree with a lot too.

First and foremost, please describe an instance you saw Airmen outside the wire with an M-16 and four rounds. I always had 31 in the M-4 and 270 on my person. I also like to keep a shotty in my pack when I can. I've never seen or even heard of anyone carrying 4 rounds outside - I call BS on that malarkey.

On the other hand, I can see your frustration. I, like you, get tired of humping 80 lbs of crap - and I also have to hump my camera, lens kit and back ups. I'm AF. Like you, whenever I pass through an Air Force area in the AOR and see the security forces dudes and others chilling under some shade with their feet kicked up, sunglasses on ---- literally chillin' out, I get extremely frustrated. Mostly, it pisses me off because I know these same dudes will have "war" stories to tell when they get home - funny shit to me :)

On the uni

CC....I was on your side...but now I am starting to drift....

First of all....a 30 round magazine only carries....30 rounds....so I am guessing with your 31 rounds in your M-4 you have chambered on and then added on back into your 30rd magazine? And since when has any AFSC besides Cops, PJs, and TacP's been issued an M4? Last time I checked the armory in the AOR everyone but the previous mentioned was issued an M16A2?

Now on to the Cops...where in the AOR did you see the Cops chilling under a shade with their feet kicked up? Becuase the Cops I know and have seen where all the Combat Protective Gear with plates and helmet, weapons - M4 and M9, ammo for those weapons, radio, etc. And they wear that gear for 12-14hrs. So please fill us in where you seen those cops doing what you say......

[Capt Alfredo]

CC....I was on your side...but now I am starting to drift....

First of all....a 30 round magazine only carries....30 rounds....so I am guessing with your 31 rounds in your M-4 you have chambered on and then added on back into your 30rd magazine? And since when has any AFSC besides Cops, PJs, and TacP's been issued an M4? Last time I checked the armory in the AOR everyone but the previous mentioned was issued an M16A2?

Now on to the Cops...where in the AOR did you see the Cops chilling under a shade with their feet kicked up? Becuase the Cops I know and have seen where all the Combat Protective Gear with plates and helmet, weapons - M4 and M9, ammo for those weapons, radio, etc. And they wear that gear for 12-14hrs. So please fill us in where you seen those cops doing what you say......

I had an M-4 issued when I was in Iraq, but then I wasn't on an AF deployment so maybe that's why.

[BRUWIN]

I had an M-4 issued when I was in Iraq, but then I wasn't on an AF deployment so maybe that's why.

I was issued an M-4 last time I went...but I had to insist on one. I got tired of walking through doors and my M-16 catching the doorframe and yanking me backwards and the Army guys always referring to it as my "Musket Gun".

[Combat correspondent]

CC....I was on your side...but now I am starting to drift....

First of all....a 30 round magazine only carries....30 rounds....so I am guessing with your 31 rounds in your M-4 you have chambered on and then added on back into your 30rd magazine? And since when has any AFSC besides Cops, PJs, and TacP's been issued an M4? Last time I checked the armory in the AOR everyone but the previous mentioned was issued an M16A2?

Now on to the Cops...where in the AOR did you see the Cops chilling under a shade with their feet kicked up? Becuase the Cops I know and have seen where all the Combat Protective Gear with plates and helmet, weapons - M4 and M9, ammo for those weapons, radio, etc. And they wear that gear for 12-14hrs. So please fill us in where you seen those cops doing what you say......

No CMS...to my knowledge, all PA bring M-9 or M-4, not seen any with the M-16. Of course, I am new to this world. But, yeah, had an M-4. And, you were right to assume 1 in the chamber - best to leave that way - or so this Army PA dude told me and he's been around the block many times.

I saw cops guarding the flightlines on BAF and JBad - both places no armor - and, yeah...sorry to admit it, but kind of chillin out. I am sure many in other places are doing all sorts of cool stuff but not at BAF or JBad.

1 last thing, Chief, we aren't issued M-4s in the AOR - we bring them from here. We are, however, issued all our ammo in theater.

[Combat correspondent]

I had an M-4 issued when I was in Iraq, but then I wasn't on an AF deployment so maybe that's why.

I wasn't on AF deployment either - an ILO/JET - maybe that IS why? Dunno.

[CMSBROWN]

No CMS...to my knowledge, all PA bring M-9 or M-4, not seen any with the M-16. Of course, I am new to this world. But, yeah, had an M-4. And, you were right to assume 1 in the chamber - best to leave that way - or so this Army PA dude told me and he's been around the block many times.

I saw cops guarding the flightlines on BAF and JBad - both places no armor - and, yeah...sorry to admit it, but kind of chillin out. I am sure many in other places are doing all sorts of cool stuff but not at BAF or JBad.

1 last thing, Chief, we aren't issued M-4s in the AOR - we bring them from here. We are, however, issued all our ammo in theater.


Well there you have it...I kinda figured it was in those locations....that is what I seen to when I went down there from Kirkuk....up at Kirkuk they are geared down to the gills.

There is a new initiative where weapons will be issued to you in theater unless you are a cop. PJ, TacP...then you take them with you.

Nothing wrong with going outside the wire locked and loaded...just thought it was kinda dumb to drop one in the chamber then pull out your mag and put one back in your mag....too much effort for one round...but then again you could have dropped one in the chamber from the ejection port and slapped your mag in too...

Carry On!

[Combat correspondent]

Well there you have it...I kinda figured it was in those locations....that is what I seen to when I went down there from Kirkuk....up at Kirkuk they are geared down to the gills.

There is a new initiative where weapons will be issued to you in theater unless you are a cop. PJ, TacP...then you take them with you.

Nothing wrong with going outside the wire locked and loaded...just thought it was kinda dumb to drop one in the chamber then pull out your mag and put one back in your mag....too much effort for one round...but then again you could have dropped one in the chamber from the ejection port and slapped your mag in too...

Carry On!


Either way. And, in all honesty, such wasn't always the case. I did always keep my full combat load on me when I left the gates. Still, I wanted to prove a point to the numb nuts who said Airmen deploy with 1 M-16 per group of them and 4 bullets. Errrrr :)

[Combat correspondent]

Aye, Chief...carrying on.

Oh yeah, always meant to ask you...how long you been a Zoomie? You were Army in your last life, right?

You seem very high speed, well spoken and a gung-ho ambassador to the blue. Ooh-rah, chief!

[FCMVP#30]

Sir,
Thank you for your support... however your failure to wear your uniform properly has my Airmen questioning why it is THEY can't "ranger roll" their BDU/ABU caps, because the AFI changed to specifically prohibit doing so... yet this is just another order aircrew members don't have to follow... along with rolling up their sleeves improperly... not to mention what would happen if, just for fun, I decided to show up with a "morale patch" on my ABUs.

What y'all do is pretty damn kick ass... but as long as you think that gives you the right to ignore the same uniform instructions the rest of us have to follow... it does lose you a bit of respect.

Just so you know. Certain bases in hot weather climates have local amendments to 36-2903 that allows for sleeves on the flight suit to be rolled to the elbows when not on the flight line.

[CMSBROWN]

Aye, Chief...carrying on.

Oh yeah, always meant to ask you...how long you been a Zoomie? You were Army in your last life, right?

You seem very high speed, well spoken and a gung-ho ambassador to the blue. Ooh-rah, chief!

I was in the Big Green Machine from 1982-1991 Field Artillery. I crossed into the Blue in 1991- Security Forces. I will continue until 2015 when they say I have to get out. HOOAH!

[TheShaggy]

Well,that doesn’t mean its right. This may be a minor issue to most but it huge on the flying side of the base. Bottom line, it’s a leadership issue. What really makes it hard is when most of the FGO’s & Grp/CC’s emulate this blatant disregard for standards. This only re-enforces the perceived double standard among our jr enlisted. This “Cowboy” attitude will be carried with them until they are the decision makers. Then what?

Bottom line...Officers and NCO lead by example. This doesn’t matter if they fly a desk or a jet. The rules apply to all of us. When you fix the little things, the big issues will fall into place.

Everyone following the regs to a T will never happen. Not everyone is anal retentive robots. Once I was told by a fellow TSgt. that I need to take the morale patch off of my flight suit walking through the BX. I did, but I told him that if he were gonna go out of his way to say something to me, how bout he say something to the Capt. 20 ft away wearing his morale patch. He said "You're kidding me right? Who am I to tell a Capt what to do?". Since he was too chicken shit to do so, I went up to the Capt and explained to him about a chicken shit TSgt. who was afraid to correct a Capt. about the AFI. The Capt looked at the other TSgt., smiled, took the patch off shaking his head. It's pretty damn sad that with all the problems the AF has, we have people bitching and crying that flyers are wearing a morale patches. Boo hoo everyone, leadership has double standards. Well no shit. The military has been like that for hundreds of years and it's not going to change. Those in charge will always do what they want and they will look at those crying about it laughing. Everyone just needs to quit crying and focus on the mission. Can anyone remember what that mission is? Oh yeah, Fly Fight Win, not bitch about how unfair shit is

[Combat correspondent]

I was in the Big Green Machine from 1982-1991 Field Artillery. I crossed into the Blue in 1991- Security Forces. I will continue until 2015 when they say I have to get out. HOOAH!

By your behavior in the Blue - I am confident you were equally as "Hoooa" in the Green. You are a fine SNCO and always contribute to this forum. By the way, and this may be a weird question...but, as a former Doggie, I figure you have the know-how to answer this logically: I always heard HUA was an acronym the Army used for Heard, Understood, Acknowledged. More and more, I see people type Hoooa (or Hoooah)....was I wrong in my understanding of the acronym?

[NFD180]

Can't figure out how to post the picture but found this in Airman magazine (Mar-Apr 09). Check out the picture of the old vs new uniform in the woods. You be the judge:

http://www.airmanonline.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/081106-F-6335P-993.jpg

[sigecaps]

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd143/geardoairsoftmag/AFSOCoperatormulticam.jpg

AFSOC CCT operator wearing MultiCam pattern uniform. It's the future of camo.

[smarg]

Can't figure out how to post the picture but found this in Airman magazine (Mar-Apr 09). Check out the picture of the old vs new uniform in the woods. You be the judge:

http://www.airmanonline.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/081106-F-6335P-993.jpg

The guy in the woodland camo on the right is in violation of uniform regs...he's wearing Army combat patches. Basterd. :cool:

[Smeghead]

If he's a TACP or Combat Weather he's probably wearing the patches of the units he's attached to. Looks like 10th Mountain on his right and Big Red 1 on the left. Unless it's changed, it's authorized while he's actively with that unit. When he moves they come off.

[ender9492]

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd143/geardoairsoftmag/AFSOCoperatormulticam.jpg

AFSOC CCT operator wearing MultiCam pattern uniform. It's the future of camo.

Multicam should have been what the Air Force chose from the start. It's universally better than both the ACU and ABU pattern.
I've pitched the idea of utilizing Multicam to the uniform board, but of course, since it makes too much sense, it was rejected.

[MagnumTi]

The guy in the woodland camo on the right is in violation of uniform regs...he's wearing Army combat patches. Basterd. :cool:


He is TACP, and Army patches are authorized on BDUs for us...but not the ABUs. Right shoulder patches are combat patches, left shoulder patches are our aligned unit patches.

[BigBaze]

The note inside the magazine says he is Combat Control, but if you guys say he is TACP its probably an error by the magazine..I love that camo pattern!!!.leave it to the guys in AFSOC etc who go into harm's way to come up with their own unique uniform that is both practical for the job and does what camouflage is supposed to do..oh, maybe conceal you? That uniform puts the ABU to shame.

[LOAL-D]

Can't figure out how to post the picture but found this in Airman magazine (Mar-Apr 09). Check out the picture of the old vs new uniform in the woods. You be the judge:

http://www.airmanonline.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/081106-F-6335P-993.jpg

Haven't you heard? "All current/future wars will only be fought in countries that match our ABU cammo"
by order of HQUSAF

[MagnumTi]

The note inside the magazine says he is Combat Control, but if you guys say he is TACP its probably an error by the magazine..I love that camo pattern!!!.leave it to the guys in AFSOC etc who go into harm's way to come up with their own unique uniform that is both practical for the job and does what camouflage is supposed to do..oh, maybe conceal you? That uniform puts the ABU to shame.

I was referring to the guys in the linked photo, one guy in ABUs and one guy in BDUs. Wasn't talking about the posted photo of the single guy, by all account it looks like CCT. I know they aren't giving us TACP guys the multicam stuff.

[LOAL-D]

Multicam should have been what the Air Force chose from the start. It's universally better than both the ACU and ABU pattern.
I've pitched the idea of utilizing Multicam to the uniform board, but of course, since it makes too much sense, it was rejected.


Nice but where's his reflective belt?:D

[BigBaze]

I was referring to the guys in the linked photo, one guy in ABUs and one guy in BDUs. Wasn't talking about the posted photo of the single guy, by all account it looks like CCT. I know they aren't giving us TACP guys the multicam stuff.

My fault!..but I gotta ask you as a TACP man, what do you think of the multicam uniform? I saw it on the Military Channel the other day...really like it

[Combat correspondent]

My fault!..but I gotta ask you as a TACP man, what do you think of the multicam uniform? I saw it on the Military Channel the other day...really like it

Multicam is the shit --- ABUs really suck! Not a battle uniform in the least bit.

[BigBaze]

Multicam is the shit --- ABUs really suck! Not a battle uniform in the least bit.


I do agree with you there..:> But that is why we don't all have it..because it is the shit:)

[pheenix]

Nope. Like it or not...pilots wear flight suits day in and day out. As an example, I flew four times this week and need to be ready to fly on any day at near moments notice. But, I won't try to justify me wearing my flightsuit. If it were up to me, I would let everyone wear flightsuits if it would make non-fliers happy. As for the ABU, are you saying that because I wear a flight suit that I should not stick up for those wearing the ABU as a primary uniform? Then, maybe I should keep my mouth shut and let you deal with it. :mad:

Regarding wear of a flight suit (Junior NCO opinion Below)

Flying days....fine (no brainer)
Non flying (but standby) days....no problem
Non flying, non standby days (ie: formal classroom training)...no flight suit
People on DNIF status....no flight suit

I'm on your side regarding what you said.

[AHolmes79]

Regarding wear of a flight suit (Junior NCO opinion Below)

Flying days....fine (no brainer)
Non flying (but standby) days....no problem
Non flying, non standby days (ie: formal classroom training)...no flight suit
People on DNIF status....no flight suit

I'm on your side regarding what you said.

That last one is a little out of control where I work, but apparently nobody in the Ops Group cares.

[NFCstang]

Speaking of flight suits...

I work in an organization that has no planes and no one on flight status and therefore flight suits probably shouldn't be worn. I'll give you a hint...it begins with "JF" and ends with "COM."

But anyway, so on a Monday a couple of weeks ago, we were doing cleanup/moving and I wore my ABUs. I had to spend the rest of the day explaining to pretty much everyone why I was OOU.

Of course a lot of the same people show up Tues-Fri wearing flight suits.

Double standard? I think so.