If we're so short of cash, are bands worth the money?

[Smeghead]

While I see a place for the ceremonial band, for reasons of tradition and to add pomp, circumstance and oompah oompah to military ceremonies, is there a need for the rock bands, jazz bands, celtic band, hawaiin band, etc? Actually add to that Tops in Blue. We're short on manning but releasing people to sing and dance? What benefit do bands really bring?

Internally, is there a need to perform for servicemembers? With today's technology we're nowhere near as isolated as say a GI serving in the UK during WWII. And then the bands played the kind of music they would listened to back home. But now, with my iPod and internet I'm really not going to watch an AF Jazz ensemble or Tops In Blue perform the hits of Motown.

Externally, are we sending the wrong message to the civilian world? It's hard to convince the general public that we're struggling financially when we have people released from their duty section to play the triangle. And how does that make the guy who was force-shaped feel too?

I'm hard pressed to find a compelling reason for their continued existence.

[Hootie]

Agreed, we are supposed to do more with less then expalin to our troops why they are working such long hours while people are traveling the world putting on a show that is obsolete and nobody cares about.

[CrustySMSgt]

As much as I think it is a cool way for a musician to serve... I gotta agree... seems like a huge waste of money. Seems like all they mostly do is sign the national anthem, play a little dinner music at an official event here or there, do a few shows, and put out a Christmas album every now & again.

[Shrike]

I'm hard pressed to find a compelling reason for their continued existence.

Same here. In my opinion, 10+ years ago TIB wasn't a big deal. But in today's environment, I think it's hard to justify allowing people to leave their workcenter short-handed to go prancing around a stage singing show-tunes for a year.

[Smeghead]

So it would seem that TiB is more expendable than the bands? We have 12 bands (11 ANG) geographically spread around who each have their own "beats" -- no pun intended. The rock bands and jazz bands etc com from those bands. So maybe there's not that many bands and the way they are assigned regions does make sense. But does does AFCENT need a band? Does PACAF need 3?

A bigger bone of contention would seem to be Tops in Blue. They seem to exist more for the civilian community than for the morale of troops. In Baghdad last Christmas I saw more anticipation for Kid Rock arriving than I'd ever seen for TiB.

[CrustySMSgt]

In Baghdad last Christmas I saw more anticipation for Kid Rock arriving than I'd ever seen for TiB.

bawitdaba-da-bang-da-dang-diggy-diggy-diggy-said-the boogie-said-up-jump-the-boogie

[Wingman Leader Warrior]

Recruiting and public relations.

If you're going to pick at this, then we need to start picking at all advertising and recruiting expeditures including NASCAR, demonstration teams, commercials, publications, billboards, advertisements, recruiting offices and costs, recruiter manning and costs...

And as you go through the list of recruiting and public relations expenditures, ask yourself which of those items are singularly for recruiting and/or public relations and which provide value to other missions.

The Tops in Blue, for instance, all have primary duties/career fields. When they go on the road to perform, they (the performers) do ALL of the work to set up and tear down the stage the day of their performance, often arriving the day prior and leaving the very next morning.

[Shrike]

The Tops in Blue, for instance, all have primary duties/career fields. When they go on the road to perform, they (the performers) do ALL of the work to set up and tear down the stage the day of their performance, often arriving the day prior and leaving the very next morning.

What difference does that make? The workcenters they left behind are still picking up their slack. It still costs a LOT of money.

If I ever run into any of the fine officers that I saw get force shaped one-two years ago, I'll console them by saying "Hey, at least TIB acts as their own roadies, and they usually get up early the morning after a show! Feel better now?"

[Measure Man]

I'm not sure I'd be so quick to throw out the bands...or Tops in Blue.

Not that they contribute so much to putting bombs on target...and not that people are dying to go see them...but there is something to being part of an organization that has a little fun...is excellent...

I feel the same way about AF sports and MAJCOM sports...we pay for guys to travel all over the world to play golf, volleyball, softball, etc....none of that really does much for the mission, but it is nice to belong to an organization that has these "quality of life" programs.

I couldn't really quantify the value of having bands...but I'm sure they do some good...they also do ambassador work in foreign countries....I think the USAFE band recently went to Ukraine. Is it valuable? I dunno, probably not...but it is something.

I'm thinking out loud...my practical head agrees wtih you guys "we don't need a band"...but something about having them makes me feel a little better about the AF.

[Wingman Leader Warrior]

Shrike...very funny image you invoked...I'm sure the force shaping board sat in an auditorium and each officer paraded onto the stage at which time the board shouted, "DANCE OR YOU'RE FIRED!"

[Shrike]

Shrike...very funny image you invoked...I'm sure the force shaping board sat in an auditorium and each officer paraded onto the stage at which time the board shouted, "DANCE OR YOU'RE FIRED!"

LMAO!

I would have been screwed. I have the worst case of White Man's Disease ever.*



* Is it racist if I myself am white and say that? I have such a hard time keeping up with the latest PC standards.

[Old Sgt Max]

They also have a monster truck, some kind of pimped out SUV and other recruiting tools. Also, do not forget the intramural golf, sports and fishing tournaments, some on govt time, that take away from your primary duties. I enjoyed watching the band from Scott AFB on several ocasions. Is it worth the manpower? I don't know but on the surface it looks like a good deal if you are on the team/ in the band or realing in fish on duty time.

[ringjamesa]

Just for clarification, the AF, AFR, and ANG bands are not funded out of the Recruiting Advertising funds. While they are used heavily for recruiting and community awareness, Recruiting doesn't fund them so while you may see all of the things that you have listed that fall under Recruiting funds-NASCAR, advertising, etc... as a waste of $, that is an entirely different discussion that whether or not the AF should have bands and TiB. I for one, tend to agree with MM that while it may not be the most effective use of AF funds, there are a lot of other areas that do the same thing with half the return on the investment. When is the last time (olympics aside) that you have read or seen anything in the civilian media regarding our athletics program?

[sgtbob]

Okay - First off I'm biased because I'm in the band. However, one of the things we deal with all the time is that a lot of Air Force folks don't understand how we work. Just a few clarifications:

1. The entire annual career field band budget (across the globe) would not pay for the annual fuel costs of an F-22, much less the cost of the actual plane. Cutting the bands would make a whole lot of veterans, generals and allies very unhappy, put a lot of people out of work, and save the Air Force an utterly insignificant amount of money.

2. Folks in the band career field are professional musicians using their abilities to serve their country. Many of us, including me, probably wouldn't be in the Air Force if we weren't in the band. I love the Air Force but I'm sure you'd all agree that the best place to serve is where your strongest skills can be utilized.

3. Tops in Blue is not connected to the band career field in any way. The members of Tops in Blue are very talented musicians but music is not their primary AFSC. It is a special duty assignment, and like all special duties you must be released from your career field. If your career field is shorthanded, you won't be released for any special duties - Tops in Blue, recruiting, BMT/PME instructor, etc. And no one is ever force-shaped into retraining because of a vacancy left by Tops in Blue.

4. The Air Force bands do need to change with the times - and we are, but like anything in the military that change doesn't happen overnight. We don't have the money or the resources to compete with Kid Rock, but we're trying to do everything we can to provide whatever music our Air Force needs or wants. All of the bands have websites - please let us know what you'd like to hear or any other helpful suggestions.

Bottom line - The Air Force bands provide morale boosts, ceremonial esprit de corps, and vital diplomatic weapons in our fight (Which do you think looks friendlier to citizens of a foreign country - a courteous, smiling American Airman with a gun on his shoulder or one with an instrument?). All of this costs less than what comes out of the tailpipe of one of our incredible planes. I think it's worth it.

[TJMAC77SP]

Okay - First off I'm biased because I'm in the band. However, one of the things we deal with all the time is that a lot of Air Force folks don't understand how we work. Just a few clarifications:

I totally believe that most AF members don’t understand exactly what AF bands are all about. Thanks for qualifying your statements.

1. The entire annual career field band budget (across the globe) would not pay for the annual fuel costs of an F-22, much less the cost of the actual plane. Cutting the bands would make a whole lot of veterans, generals and allies very unhappy, put a lot of people out of work, and save the Air Force an utterly insignificant amount of money.

Sounds like that particular comparison has been well used in the band community. Are you including just the pay of the band members or including the entire budget for every band (and smaller musical groups within each band). The travel, per diem, equipment costs, etc…in other words everything?

Keep in mind that no one (including myself) is suggesting that eliminating AF Bands is the sole avenue of saving money. Or even a major avenue for that matter. Some people just see it as extraneous.

2. Folks in the band career field are professional musicians using their abilities to serve their country. Many of us, including me, probably wouldn't be in the Air Force if we weren't in the band. I love the Air Force but I'm sure you'd all agree that the best place to serve is where your strongest skills can be utilized.

As delicately as possible I would say that whether or not musicians would be in the AF or not in the situation where there are no bands is moot.

3. Tops in Blue is not connected to the band career field in any way. The members of Tops in Blue are very talented musicians but music is not their primary AFSC. It is a special duty assignment, and like all special duties you must be released from your career field. If your career field is shorthanded, you won't be released for any special duties - Tops in Blue, recruiting, BMT/PME instructor, etc. And no one is ever force-shaped into retraining because of a vacancy left by Tops in Blue.

I think we all agree that TiB is separate from AF Bands and indeed is another suggested cut in the face of shrinking budgets

Bottom line - The Air Force bands provide morale boosts, ceremonial esprit de corps, and vital diplomatic weapons in our fight (Which do you think looks friendlier to citizens of a foreign country - a courteous, smiling American Airman with a gun on his shoulder or one with an instrument?). All of this costs less than what comes out of the tailpipe of one of our incredible planes. I think it's worth it.

And for the record, so do I. I may not necessarily agree with the enthusiasm you do but I am not invested in the situation as you obviously are. I think there are smart and relevant areas the AF could cut costs in. One area might be scaling back the AF Band footprint. Do we need as many bands?

2 cents thrown……………

[TREYSLEDGE]

Shrike...very funny image you invoked...I'm sure the force shaping board sat in an auditorium and each officer paraded onto the stage at which time the board shouted, "DANCE OR YOU'RE FIRED!"

Force shaping board member: "I gotta have more cow bell."

[BRUWIN]

Force shaping board member: "I gotta have more cow bell."

Halarious.

Band guy to Board Member: "and last time I checked, we don't do a lot of songs that feature the cow bell...and I'd be doing the Air Force a diservice if I didn't play the hell out of this thing."

[Gunner7]

If the main selling point of the AF Band is that they project the "friendly American" image, maybe they would be better off working for the state department. If you are in the business of forcing the enemy to do your will, the image you project should leave little doubt about your resolve or abilities. While a trombone could look like a shoulder launched weapon, it misses every time.

[BDL]

We could just contract them out or make them civil service jobs (comment prompted by another thread and sponsored by MyStaff).

[Rev Mike Large]

1) sgt bob -- you made your points well and did your career field proud with your explanation and your ability to remain reasonable when something near and dear to you is being scrutinized;
2) People getting released from their jobs for a year to "play the triangle" started me laughing, and the cowbell reference caused soda to spew upon my keyboard and screen. Simply put: you can never have too much cowbell.
3) I agree that the bands and TIB are separate issues, and my take is this:
Keep the bands, but scale it down and remove anyone in the chain who is an obstacle to the "specialty" bands playing stuff people actually want to hear. The bands have incredibly talented musicians who can play a variety of music -- there should be the regular ceremonial band and then one that continually refreshes its playlist to keep with the times.
4) Tops in Blue is long overdue for the chopping block. I'll admit the first time I saw a show it was inspiring and made me proud to be an Airman. However, that was back before budget woes and fighting two wars. The argument can be made that you don't cut a program with that long of a tradition based on the contingency operations du jour. However, I say that one of Tops in Blue's long-standing and oft-mentioned major purposes is RECRUITING. And the last time I checked, most 16-22 year olds are not heavily impressed by people running around in sequined costumes and cowboy hats singing show tunes and always ending with Lee Greenwood. Also, in more than 5 years of being associated with recruiting and marketing for it, I do not remember ONE time where the TIB management asked us where we could use them or offered to perform at a high school. It's always some tired community center or a hangar ON AN AIR FORCE BASE (where, as we all know, there is a solid need for Air Force awareness... rolling eyes...)
They are not effective for recruiting. They may well be ambassadors of good-will, but so are the official bands. Final thought: any career field or base, or office, that releases a member these days to do a year in TIB should get an award for being the nicest, most lenient leadership organization in the Air Force. And shortly following the award presentation, they should have to give up at least 10 percent of their overall manning level since things are going that well for them.

[TJMAC77SP]

1)…….. And the last time I checked, most 16-22 year olds are not heavily impressed by people running around in sequined costumes and cowboy hats singing show tunes and always ending with Lee Greenwood.

Not to mention the possibility of adding to the DADT issue…….

1)Also, in more than 5 years of being associated with recruiting and marketing for it, I do not remember ONE time where the TIB management asked us where we could use them or offered to perform at a high school. It's always some tired community center or a hangar ON AN AIR FORCE BASE (where, as we all know, there is a solid need for Air Force awareness... rolling eyes...)
They are not effective for recruiting……

Salient points Rev.

[Rev Mike Large]

Thanks, TJMAC -- and the DADT blast was hilarious!

Unfortunately, I seriously doubt anyone is anywhere near pulling the plug on the beloved Tops in Blue tour anytime soon. This is one of those things that doesn't matter how much good argument there is for it, it just won't happen. Oh well...

[TJMAC77SP]

Thanks, TJMAC -- and the DADT blast was hilarious!

Unfortunately, I seriously doubt anyone is anywhere near pulling the plug on the beloved Tops in Blue tour anytime soon. This is one of those things that doesn't matter how much good argument there is for it, it just won't happen. Oh well...

Well, I don't necessarily think the plug should be pulled on TIB. At least not from a strictly budget standpoint. It is nickel and dime-ing the budget which may garner publicity and self-righteousness among the proposers but rarely results in any significant budgetary gains.

[Rev Mike Large]

But I don't think this should be done really from a budgetary standpoint -- although with considering a year's salary at all the pay grades, plus travel costs, per diem, equipment, lodging, etc. -- I believe the savings would be significant enough. The point is more that 30+ Airmen (officers and enlisted) traveling the country doing what the band does (only more Hollywood) really doesn't send a message that we're serious about being in the fight -- and since the main justifcation for TIB is recruiting and it fails as a recruiting tool, why have it? I'd rather see the Air Force allow permissive TDY more liberally for American Idol and So You Think You Can Dance tryouts and grant the permissive status as long as they advance. That bald, alien-looking Navy sailor and the Marine a year or two before him both gave their services a HUGE recruiting exposure in return for their absence. That is far more and better and more relevant publicity than the aforementioned Star Spangled Sequins.

And, to reiterate: I will retract my entire argument the first minute I hear some cowbell during a TIB show.

[sgtbob]

Thank you for the support and understanding.

FYI - The band career field underwent a 40% reduction two years ago. None of the bands were eliminated, as that would leave areas of the country and AOR that we couldn't cover. However, all of the bands are now much smaller.

The concert bands only perform a few times a year now. The majority of the performances are from the smaller groups (i.e. smaller footprint), several of whom have deployed "outside the wire", to include lots of places Kid Rock and others would not be able to peform in.

Again, change comes slowly in the military, but one of the reasons for continuing the "traditional music" is because the majority of our civilian audiences are from the "greatest generation", the demographic with the strongest support of the military and highest percentage of voters, historically. That seems to be changing with the college-age generation now, but only time will tell.

I can't speak for Tops in Blue (not my type of music, either), but hopefully they are making an effort to change with the times as well. I think it's a great idea to have an artistic outlet for talented Airmen who may or may not fit the band career field. While "American Idol" and "Nashville Star" are good vehicles for publicity, they're not practical options for the majority of Airmen. The finalists on those shows are locked into ironclad contracts, and essentially "owned" lock, stock, and barrel by the recording companies. Anyone with a substantial service obligation or military career aspirations wouldn't be eligible.

As for contracting the band or changing to civil service positions, there are probably some in my career field that would welcome it with open arms. However, part of our success in promoting the Air Force to the public is that they "hear" with their eyes. We look and act like military professionals because we are. You just don't get the same audience reaction with a symphony orchestra in tuxedos, or a concert band or rock band in some sort of "costumes".

[slapshot74]

Finally some people on my side. This thread is almost boring because of this. These bands are a drain on the system. I never saw the AF Band or Honor Guard before coming in. Who are they recruiting exactly, others who want to spend their lives playing the trumpet or dancing on stage? It is a hideout for the militarily unsuccessful. Yes I am so impressed with their abilities on the stage in Baghdad after I worked a 14-hour shift in the heat and dust. Way to go TIB, keep telling yourself anybody cares.

[BERSERKER]

I'm very concerned. I've had the opportunity to interact with some of these band folks. If we take their instruments away, a few may resort to playing the skin flute.

[BadBender]

Finally some people on my side. This thread is almost boring because of this. These bands are a drain on the system. I never saw the AF Band or Honor Guard before coming in. Who are they recruiting exactly, others who want to spend their lives playing the trumpet or dancing on stage? It is a hideout for the militarily unsuccessful. Yes I am so impressed with their abilities on the stage in Baghdad after I worked a 14-hour shift in the heat and dust. Way to go TIB, keep telling yourself anybody cares.

The Honor Guard is not tied to the bands or Tops In Blue. The purpose of the Honor Guard is not to recruit; it is to render military honors to our fallen active duty, veterans and retirees. Instead of booting the bands and TIB how about we cut down on the plasma TVs and stop each new wing king from getting a brand new staff car when the old one will do just fine to save some money. Come on, we all have seen waste out there, blatant waste before us. The ABU anyone? You PT to get fit to withstand the heat of the sand box and then they give us a thermal blanket of a uniform to wear? Before we start talking about cutting people (our most valuable asset right?) lets look at other ways to shave funds. I for one like the bands and think they do a real good job.

[Smeghead]

I apologize to any band musicians for lumping them in with TiB. I'm a little better educated now and am starting to see that maybe bands serve more of a purpose than I originally believed.

I don't see myself getting on board with TiB ever though.

Maybe the bone of contention comes from some of the points BadBender just made. We apparently have limited funds yet at my wing last weekend they started laying the granite stones all around the base to pretty it up. And the plasma screens keep getting ordered. And everybody needs a new computer every year. And ... it goes on. I've seen good people force shaped. Manning in my shop has been cut to two people--in the event of a major accident we're not manned to respond. And yet the answer is always the same tired line "it's a different pot of money"

[slapshot74]

The Honor Guard is not tied to the bands or Tops In Blue. The purpose of the Honor Guard is not to recruit; it is to render military honors to our fallen active duty, veterans and retirees. Instead of booting the bands and TIB how about we cut down on the plasma TVs and stop each new wing king from getting a brand new staff car when the old one will do just fine to save some money. Come on, we all have seen waste out there, blatant waste before us. The ABU anyone? You PT to get fit to withstand the heat of the sand box and then they give us a thermal blanket of a uniform to wear? Before we start talking about cutting people (our most valuable asset right?) lets look at other ways to shave funds. I for one like the bands and think they do a real good job.

First, I lump them all in together. TIB, AF Bands, Thunder Birds, makes no difference to me. They can say it's for recruiting but let's be honest. What percent of the current personnel in the AF ever saw these things before joining the AF? How effective are they at recruiting?

Second, correct, all these things are wastes of money. But let's start with the AF Band, AF Honor Guard, and TIB. Not to cut people (our most valuable asset) but cut the positions and return those people (and the countless personnel and resources needed to suport them) to the operational AF. I see the plasma screen TV in the chow hall used only to display the lunch menu and struggle to understand why I can't buy equipement I need to accomplish the mission. I see the Wing CC driving a new car every year and shake my head when we have a GOV held together with duct tape. I agree with it all.

Third, each individual base has an Honor Guard. Let them do funerals and the like. At least the people doing these jobs are only doing an extra duty. They are trained and knowledgeable on an actual AFSC and can return to it if needed or when the time comes. I had an E-5 come to me after six years in the AF Honor Guard. What a waste. He can twirl a rifle like nobody's business.....great. That will be the first bullet I put on his EPR.

[CrustySMSgt]

I apologize to any band musicians for lumping them in with TiB. I'm a little better educated now and am starting to see that maybe bands serve more of a purpose than I originally believed.


Them guys take that stuff pretty seriously... lol

We had a band geek in my SNCOA flight, and even knowing we were just yanking his chain, he'd still get all wound up when we asking how cool it was being in TiB. :D

[sgtbob]

Who are they recruiting exactly, others who want to spend their lives playing the trumpet or dancing on stage? It is a hideout for the militarily unsuccessful.

Militarily unsuccessful?! What would be a success? Killing the enemy? Flying a plane? Last I checked, being in the military is about using your skills to serve your country, whether it's fighting on the frontlines, processing travel orders, or cooking meals for service members. There's no such thing as a "hideout", since there's no draft to force people into military service.

Once again, the bands (and TIB, somewhat) serve three purposes (in priority order):

1. Airmen support (morale, protocol, ceremonial)
2. Community Relations (U.S. and potential foreign allies)
3. Recruiting (This doesn't happen very much any more)

Thank you for your service. I have the utmost respect for the work you do. I'm proud to be on the same team.

[Hootie]

Once again, the bands (and TIB, somewhat) serve three purposes (in priority order):

1. Airmen support (morale, protocol, ceremonial)

Ok you can throw the morale thing out the window, i will back you on the ceremonial aspect and agree that should be kept but should be almost like the honor guard deal, an extra duty.

2. Community Relations (U.S. and potential foreign allies)

Can't say much about this I have never seen a band out in a community, I have seen habitat for humanity projects and adopt-a-highway and the like but never a band and all of those are on personal time for the most part.

3. Recruiting (This doesn't happen very much any more)

Yeah.............I don't think so.



I can see a cermonial band, that makes sense to me the rest of it is just a waste.

[sgtbob]

I have never seen a band out in a community, I have seen habitat for humanity projects and adopt-a-highway and the like but never a band and all of those are on personal time for the most part.

The communities we perform in are almost always far outside of the areas around military bases. We purposely choose regions of the country that don't have any regular military interaction because it's our job to represent the Air Force to people who don't see the military on a regular basis. So, if you've been in the Air Force for a while, then no, you probably haven't seen us perform out in the community.

As for troop morale, there are definitely folks we don't reach for whatever reason. But in the eleven years I've done this, there have been plenty of Airmen that were glad we were there. Again, it's a personal choice.

[MSgtD]

Don't normally post, in fact, just had to register to make this comment. However, I'm going to back up SgtBob a little bit.

While I don't necessarily think the band is a great recruiting tool, they absolutely are great from a community relations standpoint. Last year, the CENTAF band went into small villages in the Horn of Africa. It was phenomenal. The mission there is to "win the hearts and minds." With music, the bands win the hearts and minds. They help open communication with village leaders. They bridge gaps that a regular Joe in uniform can't do. Once that line of communication is open, we can start forging relationships that can help keep terrorists from infiltrating those villages. In this respect, the bands are invaluable.

For whoever said they were militarily unsuccessful -- why don't you just ponder this ...

Most bandsmen and women have at LEAST a four year degree. Many have master's and some have PhDs. Like SgtBob, I'm not sure how you measure success, but I'm sure a "non-er" like me wouldn't be considered successful either. Hogwash. Get over yourself. So you touch an airplane when you go to work. If it wasn't for many, many other Airmen, you wouldn't get paid for that, wouldn't be healthy for that, wouldn't be riding to the flightline in a vehicle ... honestly. Get over yourself.

For the record, I'm not in the band, nor do I generally go to band concerts on base or otherwise. I've just seen the good an Air Force band can do.

TIB is a whole different story ...

[horse]

How about getting rid of air shows and the thunderbirds, too? Another black hole to throw money into.

[Boss Hog]

How about getting rid of air shows and the thunderbirds, too? Another black hole to throw money into.

Horse--

Roger that. (Reference the recent articles re: the megabucks contracts the big brass bungled to upscale the audiovisual ground show for the Thunderbirds.)

PS: While us taxpayers are at it, let's deep-six the other "demo teams". (You can fill in the blanks here.) I have yet to see where ther's evidence of any positive result from the collective multimillion/billion $hows we put on every year. Let's buy some sadly/badly-needed new hardware for the troops, and let's get some more troops on the payroll.

Out.

[Smeghead]

I remember taking all the cals early 2002 asking if we were going to have an airshow that year. I sol badly wanted to answer "Yeah, it's going on right now over Afghanistan if you want to check it out."

[sgtbob]

Thanks for the support, MSgtD! Glad to know some people "get it".

[Rev Mike Large]

MSgt D, sgt bob -- good points all around, and good to see reasonable discussion. I for one can see a community relations and ceremonial function for the actual AF bands -- but as a recruiting tool, they fail miserably and should either update their look and sound (playlists) or just stick with the aforementioned comm. relations and ceremonial functions.

I like sgt bob's point that being militarily successful means doing the job you're supposed to do for the military, and doing it well. So if the band members come in the service to play music, and do that well, they are successful.

TIB is really where the stronger argument is for getting rid of something. It's PRIMARY mission is supposed to be recruiting support and yet they are highly ineffective at helping recruit anyone under the age of 40, or who could openly serve these days. Sequined costumes and show tunes might do it for some in those categories, but it won't catch a lot of contemporary youth. Not to mention the obvious point that these people came in and were trained for a specific job that was NOT related to band performance. They are sitting on a unit's UMD somewhere for a year while that unit is SOL until they return. Add to this, that it surely does cost a significant amount of money in equipment and travel -- not to mention the combined salaries of an ensemble of somewhere north of 30-40 members for a whole year.

TIB should go... but I'm good with at least some band capability sticking around.

[BigBaze]

How about getting rid of air shows and the thunderbirds, too? Another black hole to throw money into.


Good idea, just bring the Blue Angels to the airshows, they are better anyhow

[Worm]

While I was in the AF, I saw a lot of usefulness in the bands, especially overseas. Have you ever been to Japan or Korea? Sometimes you have a house built with three walls and the fourth wall is actually the wall we've build around the base. Then we go putting F-16, F-15 and C-130s over those houses and we've got some pretty POed folks outside the gate complaining to the commander. So out goes the band to hold a concert a couple of times a year free to anyone that wants to go. I've been to about 20 of them and there's only standing room in a place that fits near 4,000 people. We get the commanders out there with the mayors of these cities and everyone is happy again ... at least until the next concert. There's no doubt that the people in the AF could care less, but there's definately a benefit to having a band overseas. It's especially true in places like Japan and Korea where the first exposure everyone had to modern Western music was through the military bands.

I also agree about the TiB cuts. Every time we set up for them, we never had a full audience. It seemed like the folks off-base liked to see them more, but it was overseas. I don't see any recruitment benefit there.

One of the things that really make you lose your top was the failed (thank god too) $50M Thunderbirds contract a few months back. You want to talk about putting money into something that would have really cut deep. This was before Secretary Gates halted Force Shaping. How many Airmen does that figure?

[TheShaggy]

How about getting rid of air shows and the thunderbirds, too? Another black hole to throw money into.

Not really. Got a friend that is a recruiter and she says that after an airshow, the office is swamped with calls and recruites that want to join after seeing all the planes and meeting with the Airmen working at the airshow. Said airshows is recruiting gold.

Now as far as bands go, IMO I could live without them. They don't do a thing for my morale or anyone else that I know. As someone said, I think bands should be a special duty like Honor Guard. LIke I said, it's my opinion. Don't want any band people to get their panties in a bunch like a band geek on myspace did one time.

[ramprat]

a couple of facts: bands and parades increase morale.
at barksdale in the early fifties the base had a parade scheduled the third saturday
of every month.the most popular guy on the base was the col who cancled the parade
every once in a while.
several (a quartet) band members would play at noon in the mess hall at least once a week,
also a squadron officer was delegated to eat at least one meal a day at the em mess hall.

[ramprat]

those in the pentagon probably spend more on spilled ice cubes,than what the bands cost.

[Rev Mike Large]

Has anyone gotten on here in defense of TIB? Seriously, most of us seem to agree that bands may still have a place -- just possibly a reduced place -- at the table still. But unless I missed something, where are the TIB supporters? Where are the sequin boosters coming out of the woodworks to defend the traveling side show? I'm actually surprised -- because those who are pro-TIB are generally rabidly in support of it. Could it be that we're all in agreement on something: that Tops In Blue should go??

[BigBaze]

Has anyone gotten on here in defense of TIB? Seriously, most of us seem to agree that bands may still have a place -- just possibly a reduced place -- at the table still. But unless I missed something, where are the TIB supporters? Where are the sequin boosters coming out of the woodworks to defend the traveling side show? I'm actually surprised -- because those who are pro-TIB are generally rabidly in support of it. Could it be that we're all in agreement on something: that Tops In Blue should go??


The final straw for me was the email we got the other day looking for people to go carry TIB's bags for them once they got off their bus..

[BigBaze]

a couple of facts: bands and parades increase morale.
at barksdale in the early fifties the base had a parade scheduled the third saturday
of every month.the most popular guy on the base was the col who cancled the parade
every once in a while.
several (a quartet) band members would play at noon in the mess hall at least once a week,
also a squadron officer was delegated to eat at least one meal a day at the em mess hall.


I haven't heard a damn person I know of say that the band or TIB increases morale, you want to increase morale , it is simple, look after your people !

[Worm]

The bands truly serve a better purpose as outreach tools, especially when younger airmen don`t respond to them anymore. TiB is just a rip off the Army`s Soldier Show. It`ll be hard to get rid of it when the other services still have them.

[ramprat]

dont you guys beleive that ALL contribute to the mission equally???
its been the air force propaganda message a long time.

[Shrike]

Has anyone gotten on here in defense of TIB? Seriously, most of us seem to agree that bands may still have a place -- just possibly a reduced place -- at the table still. But unless I missed something, where are the TIB supporters? Where are the sequin boosters coming out of the woodworks to defend the traveling side show? I'm actually surprised -- because those who are pro-TIB are generally rabidly in support of it. Could it be that we're all in agreement on something: that Tops In Blue should go??

About seven years ago I had a conversation with a Major that I'd known for a long time; we kept meeting up at different bases and during deployments.

I asked what his plans for the weekend were, and he said in a very unethusiastic tone that he was going to the TIB show that night. I mentioned that he didn't sound like he wanted to go. His reply should come as no surprise to many people, and I paraphrase it here: you know how it is, the wing king feels we need to support this, so the group and squadron commanders feel they HAVE to be there or they'll miss some face time. Because the flight commanders know the squadron and group commanders feel they have to be there, they also feel they have to be there, or they'll stand out via their absence. The junior officers follow their flight commander's lead and also go because they feel obligated to. The same goes in the enlisted ranks with the chiefs and 1st sergeants.


I would love to see an anonymous poll taken at a TIB show asking "Are you attending this show because you want to, or because you feel obligated to?"

[MACHINE666]

That's hilarious everyone.

I think Tops in Blues is the lamest PC attempt at trying to convince the American public that we're all on the good-guy team or whatever. I attended one of these things in 2006 for an EPR bullet, and it was the first and last time I ever go to one if I have a say so. Everything is so hokey from their theme "What is Love?" and tying it in with service to the Air Force, to the vaseline covered camera lens giving them that false look of appeal. The program should be axed without mercy, and the same money spent for that should go to mission essential funding, or perhaps a donation to the USO to get some really great celebrities visiting our people down range instead. This whole performance went out with the 1950's in my opinion.

[BigBaze]

That's hilarious everyone.

I think Tops in Blues is the lamest PC attempt at trying to convince the American public that we're all on the good-guy team or whatever. I attended one of these things in 2006 for an EPR bullet, and it was the first and last time I ever go to one if I have a say so. Everything is so hokey from their theme "What is Love?" and tying it in with service to the Air Force, to the vaseline covered camera lens giving them that false look of appeal. The program should be axed without mercy, and the same money spent for that should go to mission essential funding, or perhaps a donation to the USO to get some really great celebrities visiting our people down range instead. This whole performance went out with the 1950's in my opinion.


Like Chuck Norris. The madhouse that ensued when he came to see us in the AOR was quite something:)

[Gunner7]

I had a chance to see a performance by the folks from TIB in San Antonio a few weeks ago. The folks that seemed to be "into" the performance were the ones who seemed to have difficulty finding their seats. Not sure if they were even aware who was on stage but they were clapping in unison with music I didn't hear in the room. The sequined cowboy hats and cheesy presentation was so funny I almost laughed pasta through my nose. After a few tunes I got the feeling that TIB is another example of AF telling customers what they want. Tell those Airmen to throw down their costumes, put the unform on and come in for the big win.

[Taka2k7]

...

The Tops in Blue, for instance, all have primary duties/career fields. When they go on the road to perform, they (the performers) do ALL of the work to set up and tear down the stage the day of their performance, often arriving the day prior and leaving the very next morning.

umm, not everywhere. When they were scheduled to come to my base, base leadership was looking for volunteers to help with setup and tear down.

So no, TIB does not, "...do ALL of the work to set up and tear down the stage..."

[BigBaze]

umm, not everywhere. When they were scheduled to come to my base, base leadership was looking for volunteers to help with setup and tear down.

So no, TIB does not, "...do ALL of the work to set up and tear down the stage..."


Yep, just happened again yesterday, they needed volunteers pulled from the real mission to help carry TIB's bags for them and set up their crap, and tow aircraft out of a hangar so TIB could go about their amazing work in boosting morale with their shiny suits.

[TheShaggy]

Yep, just happened again yesterday, they needed volunteers pulled from the real mission to help carry TIB's bags for them and set up their crap, and tow aircraft out of a hangar so TIB could go about their amazing work in boosting morale with their shiny suits.

Yup, they are coming to Maxwell soon and a mass email was sent out to all the Junior Enlisted asking for help setting up and tearing down stuff. Everyone that I have talked to about dealing with TIB say that they are pompous pricks that expect everyone to treat them like rock stars and cry when they don't get that treatment. Get rid of them and put them to real work

[BigBaze]

Yup, they are coming to Maxwell soon and a mass email was sent out to all the Junior Enlisted asking for help setting up and tearing down stuff. Everyone that I have talked to about dealing with TIB say that they are pompous pricks that expect everyone to treat them like rock stars and cry when they don't get that treatment. Get rid of them and put them to real work


Unless they are rocking some serious cowbell, who cares what they do:>?:)

[Shrike]

Yup, they are coming to Maxwell soon and a mass email was sent out to all the Junior Enlisted asking for help setting up and tearing down stuff. Everyone that I have talked to about dealing with TIB say that they are pompous pricks that expect everyone to treat them like rock stars and cry when they don't get that treatment. Get rid of them and put them to real work

I'm close with a good singer who had a tryout with TIB. From her vivid descriptions of dealing with the people, the experience could have been taped and televised as USAF's Bitchiest Divas.

And the women were bad, too. ;)

[Rev Mike Large]

Unless they are rocking some serious cowbell, who cares what they do:>?:)

LMAO -- more cowbell (along with some BOC cover tunes) could definitely be the saving grace for TIB!! :D

[ringjamesa]

Ok, in defense of TIB, it can give some airmen with some "talent" a break from the OAF. At least TIB members possess another AFSC so they can come back. Band members don't they are AF musicians period. With that said, TIB and the bands should change their #1 to Community awareness etc. I have NEVER been to a TIB show or a concert. I have seen some of the smaller bands play at some official functions and they were really good. Necessary....maybe not but cool just the same. Morale building? I think that would be a strech since most of the time when they play, most people avoid going if at all possible. Who wants to go sti through several hours of classical music after working 8-12 hours? If anything, that would probably decrease my morale. As for Recruiting....don't really see that much either. As to the person who menitioned Airshows increasing the # of interested callers, ask your friend in Recruiting how many of those calls resulted in enlistments. Yeah the # of calls goes up but most of the callers are not even eligible to join.

[Rev Mike Large]

As to the person who menitioned Airshows increasing the # of interested callers, ask your friend in Recruiting how many of those calls resulted in enlistments. Yeah the # of calls goes up but most of the callers are not even eligible to join.

Actually, I'm a believer in Air Shows -- and this continues, even after I spent more than 5 years in a recruiting squadron. Having worked many Air Shows and other major events AND having seen the results in recruiting numbers, I'll say this:

It's absolutely true that interest spikes during and after such events -- especially Air Shows. It's also historically true that the majority of calls and visits that result are from people disqualified. We used to have sayings to describe who would show up to the recruiting displays we manned: "5 or 50" comes to mind -- meaning they were too young or too old to join.

All that said, if you get 100 extra leads as a recruiter -- it sucks to refine those (ie - follow up on them). However, if just 5 percent of them are qualified applicants -- just 5 out of 100 -- and you get 2 or 3 of them to join, that's a month's goal for your work. That's a decent short term benefit to recruiting.

To take it a step farther though -- all those "5 year olds" who are staring, wide eyed, up at the sky are forming early positive impressions of the Air Force and military. For some, "pilot" takes the place of "policeman" or "fireman" on their list of what they want to be when they grow up. Meanwhile, next to them, dad and mom, gramps and granny, are also being influenced positively as they realize that the aerial displays they're seeing actually reflect the power and capabilities that keep our nation safe. Fast forward 12-15 years and little Johnny or Jane express interest in joining the AF and maybe mom and dad (or gramps and granny if they're still above ground) don't oppose that decision.

Air Shows are good for community relations. They are also reasonably good for short term recruiting. And the long-term effects are hard to measure -- but I've heard more than one General Officer talk about how they wanted to fly since they were a kid at an air show...

[Unregistered]

As a musician in the Navy Band, I can personally say that our budget isn't very large AT ALL...considering that Task Force Uniform was given millions of dollars to wear-test and approve so far, a PT Uniform that has been almost universally panned by the Fleet and a service uniform that's composed of uniforms that already existed, our annual budget of less than one million dollars spread across the entire Navy Music program doesn't seem so large. Indeed, the vast majority of our budget actually comes from fiscal year-end "dump money", money that wasn't used by other commands and is essentially being "thrown away". Rock band tours through high schools result in many leads for Navy recruiters while Big Bands perform public concerts, performing valuable PR work for the US Navy. Also, please take into account that we are highly trained, dedicated professionals, many with degrees, who practice and hone our craft for hours daily (After our daily working hours). We have just as much of a right to exist as a program as anyone else.

[Lightfighter Gal]

Speaking as one of those military musicians, I must put my two cents in. First, true military musicians are in that job. It is what they do for a living. They are not leaving others behind to put bombs together or fix a truck. They get up, do PT, and return to work as military musicians. Their job is espirit de corps. Look it up in the dictionary, look it up in the history books. Military musicians have been around since the earliest days of military organizations.

Military musicians in the field should not be confused with the soldier's show or events like this. If you want to talk about this type of event, lets talk about the sporting events that take soldiers away from their jobs. In these cases their fellow soldier is required to pick up the slack. I have known many non-musicians that were taken out of their jobs to go play racketball for the military, or play football, or baseball. The list is too long to finish.

True military musicians fall under regular military units. Speaking on behave of the Army, there are many Army Bands that are assigned to an Infantry Division. They have a wartime job ,when it is not feasable to play their instruments any longer. There are several bands, more than you would guess, that are, right now as I type this, deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan doing their jobs in the war zone.

So before you dismiss military musicians so quickly, get your facts straight!!! SFC (Retired)

[Eyes on Target]

I can see the place for ceremonial bands for official military functions such as funerals, changes of command, and so forth. For example, at the Pentagon dedication - the instrumental and vocals added hugely to the meaning communicated by the ceremony and helped with public and family grieving. At Arlington the ceremonial band usually brings a great deal to the ceremony. IN PACAF and I'm sure in Europe, there is something very moving about having that ceremonial band strike up for big events.

(Although at Arlington -only officers and E-9s get the band. A 20+ enlisted E-8 and below vet doesn't rate though a 1st Lt who was in 4 years does)(And if its too cold they won't play even though the honor guard is always out - rain, shine, wind, hurricane, freezing rain, snow, ice, sleet, heat... it does't matter because the mission comes first.)(And some of the band members don't know what attention is. Seems like the longer one is in the more one forgets, Band attention is if your nose itches scratch it discreetly. Yes I've seen that. I saw one band member actually shaking her leg around during one funeral as if she were shaking dog doo off.) So I think the ceremonial bands have a key role but I wish they had some discipline in military bearing and a higher dedication to the mission. But -- they are musicians.

TiB - useless. Seems to me they communicate exactly the opposite of what the AF needs to communicate in economic and national budget stressed times: we ask for money because we use it to defend our nation and our nation's interests. Then we send around TiB and it looks like we have fluff non-mission essential money to burn. I wonder if such contributes to a perception that we have money to burn so why fund so fast and lethal movers.

[Unregistered]

As a Marine Musician I have a little something to say. As in the Marine Corps, we are all rifleman first. For those that don't know, 1st, and 2nd Marine Division as well as the MAW's are deployng to and fighting in Iraq. So whose to say we are a waste. They fight as well as the next Marine to his or her left and right. As far as performing, we are the esprit de corps of the Marine Corps. We play at ceremonies, functions, and events. Retirements, General Promotions, as well as Birthday Ball Ceremonies. We also train and got to courses, do PFT's, CFT's, and fire at the range. Our primary mission is music, but someone elses mission may be to flip a switch so the light turns on. We all fight. We are also a huge recruiting tool for the services. We expose the military to parts of the world not all recruiters can. We are a huge asset to the military in more ways than one. If you were to ask someone who saw the Marine Battle Color Detachment, they will remember the rifles, the musicians, and the fact that they saw what Marines looked like. They want to be one of those Marines someday, because they heard music and felt moved, because they saw The Marine Corps Silent Drill Platoon's precision. They felt something inside them that made them want to be us. A Marine. Lets not forget the primary mission and realize we are all in the same fight.

Active Duty Sergeant in the USMC

[Unregistered]

Speaking of recruiting. Hats off to the Great Lakes Naval Basebal team that played baseball on the weekends in the Chicago Suburbs which helped get the word out about the Navy. This was in 2005 and 2006.

Their uniforms? They had Navy written across their chest.

How much they get got paid? Nothing. They each paid $400.00 to play on the team. I will repeat. THEY paid. Although USO did support. Thanks USO.

The players were class acts and were the talk of the baseball league of over 500 players. They won their league championship in 2005 and hall of fame pitcher Bob Feller came out to opening day 2006 and threw out the first pitch and hung out with the players. (The NAVY band performed the National Athem)

The reason why they are no longer? Money. It costs over $4,000 a season to play in the league. But the Navy paid millions to NASCAR to someone that never served.

But the Sailors who served and wanted to advertised whay they loved to do during their off time do not get a cent.

Now that is sad.

[vasa]

I like that we have had some bandsmen respond from the other services with insight. I am a former bandsmen who spent time in 2 Army Divisions, Korea, and OIF 2. Some of the posts relate to the group Tops In Blue which I assume is similar to USA Express or Army Soldier show type bands. Most of the comments seem for the ceremonial band and against the rock bands. I am just going to say my two cents in relation to my time in the 1st Cav Band and being a lifelong Cav Trooper (with spurs).

I count myself as a Division bandsmen so my experiences are a lot different than some of my other colleagues. Division Bands deploy in support of their command/task force for OIF and OEF and at any given time there are at least 2 or 3 Division/Army level bands serving year long deployments. Serving in divisions puts you closer to regular soldiers as the mission and military requirements are similar to other division assets. We go to the field and have a security mission when not playing instruments. We also have secondary jobs like NBC, Supply, Admin, etc because Division Bands are not allowed to have ANY outside personnel assigned to the unit unless they are OJT or a vocalist. That means we do our own supply, nbc, and more and get inspected for it, sent to schools and evaluated just like everyone else. We do PT, do road marches, weapons qual, Gas chambers, and everything else like a regular unit with a few differences.

Our primary job is to play music in many forms for local communities and the troops. That means we work lots of days, many nights and weekends, and holidays all the time. Our work is often not as physical as an MP or 11 series and is not as cerebral as an MI or CIV AF soldier. However, our job requires that we be to a high skill level of musicianship before we even are able to join that has taken years to build. To be in the band you have to be a professional level player and pass and audition before you can even enlist. The Armed Forces School of Music is difficult and for some instruments the failure rate is very high. Because it is a Navy school you don't get recycled if you fail an audition; you get reclassed to another MOS so the states are very high for success.

I do think it is a cheap shot to focus on some of the military bands when asking about their cost. I don't know much about the Air Force bands but the Army Band Field is less than 2000 people with maybe 30 Commissioned officers and over 75 Warrants spread around the world in 40+ bands (Active, Guard, and Reserve). People like to sharp shoot the band sometimes because they don't understand or care about what we do. I have found that attitude changes when they lose a friend and want to see that bugler at their memorial ceremony or funeral. Not all bands have a direct purpose but there are many who are out supporting OIF / OEF doing year long deployments including going outside the wire more than 4 or 5 times a day just to play music for as many people as they can. Our fiscal impact is minimal when you view the cost to maintain a bands instruments, uniforms, compared to other military items. When I was in one division I remember our yearly budget was about 75% of what our battalion received for a month. I think that's a good trade off considering we are capable of providing security and play an instrument when needed.

In the end no one can ever tell me that what I have done was a waste of money. I have seen the look in people's eyes when I play a song they love or would have heard at a bar or pub back home. I have felt the energy and excitement from a crowd of soldiers who are salsa dancing to our salsa band's tunes. I have seen the mother's tears as she cries for her children she had to leave at home for OIF as she remembers them on Christmas Day. I have seen the joy and hope in some Iraqi college students as they read the lyrics and hear their national anthem being play for the first time. I have seen Vietnam veterans come up to me and tell me how much they love the band because for them seeing the band meant their tour was over as they stepped onto a helo with Garry Owen playing in the background. Everyone in the military has a part to play and though not apparent, we all play our roles. I really think we should be asking why are we wasting money redesigning dress uniforms in the middle of a war? I mean really, can we maybe get better vests, newer vehicles, better health care for wounded warriors or something?

[Unregistered]

I think that there is a great need for the Armed Forces to keep their musical programs. I am a five year veteran of the Marine Corps band field, and I have first-hand experience of how vital we are.

First, we are all Marines, and thus riflemen first and musicians second. We deploy like any other Marines, and there are many bandsmen with Combat Action Ribbons and a few with Purple Hearts. It is true that we take our instruments when we deploy, but our main jobs include convoy security, EOD SEcurity, and vehicle searches. We break out our horns only for the "useless" morale gigs that make the troops feel more like home, and then we are right back on post later that night.

Second, if you don't like bands coming to entertain the troops, if we are too boring for you, then fine; we are busy enough having high school band directors busting down our doors to get us to play for and with their students. Often, this is the only way recruiters are allowed anywhere near these schools. Keep in mind that when we get called to march a parade in an area with no Marine bases like Minnesota, chances are that we are the only Marines they will ever see. We are the Corps' everywhere we go. Little kids might not understand the Silent Drill Team, but I know they'll be clapping right along to Jingle Bells at our Christmas Concert.

Third, when you see different ensemble perform, keep in mind that we pull all those ensembles from the same band. If we need a Jazz Combo, we pull from the Ceremonial Band a drummer, the bassist who was playing bass drum, the paino player that was playing cymbals, and a couple horn players. At most, each band has 45 instrumentalists, but we do all those useless ensembles too. We are much more versatile than you give us credit for.

And finally, please keep in mind that it was the band that marched your sorry behind across that parade deck when you graduated your basic training. It was the band that performed at your birthday ball. It was the band that played Auld Lan Syne, Anchors Aweigh, and the Hymn at your retirement. It was the band that sent one of their buglers to bury each of your fallen comrades. Thank you for your gratitude.

Billz the Bassist

[Unregistered]

just think these so called sailors also get the same retirement check that everyone else gets to go out to sea or an IA.
If the want to play in a band then it should be a shore duty job. Every sailor should go to sea and do theier part. playing in the band isn't doing your part to defend the usa....
CWO5

[Unregistered]

I remember the USAF band leader who the leadership wanted to promote to O-6 but there was no band slot for an O-6, so they sent him to AWACS where he totally messed up during Desert Storm and they removed and promoted him.

[Unregistered]

I understand where leadership is coming from when they say that Tops In Blue, The Band of the Golden West, etc. promote esprit de corps and get the community involved. However, according to SECAF Donley and General Schwartz saying that: "The mission of the United States Air Force is to fly, fight and win...in air, space and cyberspace." I wonder how exactly any of those agencies contribute to the mission statement. From first hand experience, while they are there for morale boosters, the sheer fact that they're there does the opposite. The only people that CAN go see them are the people who can afford time out of their duty day to do so. (Which if you have time in the desert to do that--you need to go home or find a real job that utilizes you.) Don't get me wrong, I've seen Tops In Blue (at homestation), but all I could think of when watching them was "Must be nice to have a cush job where they don't have to wear a uniform, they get to perform and pretty much be a normal person." With the emphasis the AF places on how much training costs, I wonder how many of these people are in critically manned positions? I would assume there is something in small print to NOT allow that. But, away from that, the Air Force Bands....to them the AOR means the states that they travel to (or countries). They have no idea what "warrior ethos" means, because they will NEVER be in a field condition (unless TCN duty or Convoy). I guess, keep Tops In Blue--it is a good recruiting tool, but the AF Band....if not get rid of them altogether, at least reduce their size and work them more. For goodness sakes, all they do is sit and play an instrument all day. (And I can say that, I was in marching band for 4 years!)

My recommendation: Make an "elite" band to roll with the USAFHG and 86 the rest. (Maybe keep a bugler on hand for funerals.) I could care less about the Saxophone section coming and playing holiday music.....I'll be doing my job.

[mfjdspence]

I have always said CUT CUT CUT to the AF Band because it is an added cost we do not need. I am all for having some traditions, but geez, at what cost?

CUT CUT CUT. Sorry to say it, but my morale doesn't go up when I hear they are going to play. It is completely reverse considering I know that all that is going to end up happening is I am going to have to work late to ensure the trash contractor picked up after the fairly crowd of less than 150 that showed up to even hear them play.

Not worth the time or the cost.

[jerry]

They are nice for recruiting- showing the "folks back home" a different face of the army but overall, not worth the cost. I believe there are simply too many bands and the manpower is needed elsewhere. Along with that theme- lets cut about half the pentagon and our other office sections. All full of good folks doing hard work- just maybe not all work which needs to be done...

[Unregistered]

50 million dollars for a slogan that lasted a year (if that), 2 different airframes (CSAR-X and KC-X) that couldn't get off the ground because of a faulty aquisition process, Airmen asleep in silos, sending nuclear parts to Taiwan without knowing it? A "Heritage" coat that no one wants, a faulty PT uniform, etc...Thunderbirds contract...(another $50M?)

We have so many amazing people "doing something amazing"(there's another $50M)...

Sounds like we need professional Airmen to tell their story to the American public that our AF is still the strongest Air, Space and Cyberspace force in the world, while the rest of you "fly, fight and win..."

And even though it's been said in this thread before...TIB is NOT affiliated with the AF Bands program.

[Unregistered]

I'm not sure why you all think that if they cut the band's that we are going to see any more bodies or money........they will just see it as money saved. As far as recruiting goes, i am a former recruiter and here in the AF we get next to nothing for a budget and the band is available, but no one wants to use them because it is a pain in the ass getting everything coordinated. Frankly not enough bang for the buck and the hassle!!!! Also I used to be stationed at Travis which is the location of The Band of the Golden West, this was right as they opened a multi-million dollar facility. I was attending ALS at the time and i had no CJR and my instructor told us that the band was just as important as every other job in the AF, i dissagree. I do agree that for no more than the band does if there are going to be any cut-backs they should start with programs like that. I know that there is a small need for a band, but as many have pointed out there isn't much interest from AF members and minimal interest by civilians. Just my 2 cents, nothing against the band members, i'm sure they deserve to be TSgt's after BMT oh wait no they don't. I find it funny that AF special tactict's Airmen only get SrA after tech school and they are putting there asses on the line more than most in the AF and the F****ing band get's TSgt. that is BS. I'M DONE

[Unregistered]

My recommendation: Make an "elite" band to roll with the USAFHG and 86 the rest. (Maybe keep a bugler on hand for funerals.) I could care less about the Saxophone section coming and playing holiday music.....I'll be doing my job.

The damn bugler is Honor guard........cut his ass from the band too

[Unregistered]

Interesting banter. But this all needs to be considered in light of the fact that the advertising world spends over $40 Billion a year on music and the effect it has on helping communicate. FYI, if any of you have ever looked at AF budget line items, bands do NOT cost a lot. In fact, the amount of money spent on them is equal to a pimple on a rat's furry little bum. In addition, we must never assume that all military "targets" require hard kills. In fact, the more we can influence people with things like music, perhaps the less we'll have to use our bombs...

[Unregistered]

IAlso I used to be stationed at Travis which is the location of The Band of the Golden West, this was right as they opened a multi-million dollar facility. I

Van, is that you? Just wondering, since I just left Travis and know what you're talking about...sounds like my story except change the recruiting thing to ALS instructor.

[Unregistered]

[QUOTE=Unregistered;151768] FYI, if any of you have ever looked at AF budget line items, bands do NOT cost a lot. In fact, the amount of money spent on them is equal to a pimple on a rat's furry little bum. QUOTE]

While the band may not cost a lot to keep running (with BAS for all members, regardless of rank since they're on the road, traveling, etc.--can you sense sarcasm?) you're missing the point that for each of them, we're also paying their base salary AND BAH. Two of the highest priced areas to live in (Langley and Travis) is where the bands are located. BAH is about $1500 respectfully. So, to keep them running in that aspect is VERY expensive. Also, have you looked at the cost of instruments lately? They get ISSUED, yes ISSUED, instruments. A good tuba/sousaphone (depending on if you're sitting or marching with it) could cost $30k. To say that the band doesn't cost a lot is just an UNEDUCATED statement.

[Unregistered]

Well, after we get rid of the bands, I think there are a couple more things we could get rid of and do without. How 'bout recruiting? The Air Force has been trying to get rid of people yet we're still hiring. I think a recruiters quota has been nearly zero to one per month for the last couple of years. Next, lets cut the number of "practice" hours every plane spends in the air in half. I can't even begin to imagine how much money we send over to the middle east in fuel costs let alone spend on maintanence. Stop buying the new F22s because we already have air superiority with the F15. No more Academy football team. Why would I want to watch that when I can watch pro ball? Lets get rid of tech school and only hire qualified professionals with college educations like bandsmen to do the jobs. Finally, lets fire the fighter pilots because now we have UAVs that can locate, and attack targets while being controlled by "gamers" from the opposite side of the world. What kind of Air Force would we have then? Can you all imagine how ridiculous anyone with a bug up their ass could sound about any career field? We are the greatest Air Force in all the world because of all these things. All this over the amount of money that one or two B52s blow out their tailpipes while warming up and waiting for clearance for take off. Maybe you should be asking yourself if your really necessary and worth the money while your asking Uncle Sam to pay for your CCAF associates degree.

[Getwithit!]

Hey I'm not in a band and I don't think I will ever be in one. However, I recently supported a tour with one of the Air Force bands and I'll say this it's no cake walk. These people are busting their butts they set up and tear down their own shows. They travel on busses through some pretty isolated places to help spread the word of the Air Force! They personally acknowledge local recruits and pay tribute to those who have come before us. If anything, it is a grueling job to say the least...and they are great at what they do. They are pros! If we are hurting for money we should prolly trim some of the many NCOs sitting on their butts counting down till their retirement. To those who sit at their desk blogging about Air Force Musicians. I’m not a fan of Tops in Blue but it has its purpose in the grand scale of things. So get off of the bands backs. That is their job, and most of them are damn good at it. Desk jockeys…maybe you should get off yours and go make a difference and inspire a young airman like myself to be better than my Forefathers !

[Unregistered]

My two cents on the bands in the military. I am currently in the AOR and the Army division band is here (we're on an ILO tasking for the Army). At least in the Army and USMC the bands have alternate jobs, ie guarding the command post, BDOC and other things. In the AF the bands are purely ceremonialy. So while the bands are deploying and playing all over the conus the other Airmen are doing 6 month stints in the AOR every other year.

I was in the high school band and my old band teacher is now the 2ID band leader in Korea. I like hearing the band music but everyone else in the AF is expected to multi-task (read my unit here and at home station has no orderly room or CSS anymore.) so why not the band too? As cops we get tasked constantly with doing things outside our AFSC just because we're cops (parking lot directors for functions).

Keep the band but let them deploy like the rest of us and help out. Look at the Army Division bands and USMC bands. Bands yes but they also contribute to the mission in more than a "morale" sense

[Unregistered]

Navy Bands primarily support military ceremonies, they don't spend valuable tax dollars making thousands of CD's of concert band music that nobody wants hear just so a band officer can wave his/her arms. I can't remember the last Air Force Band CD I received that didn't go to the trash without being opened! Nobody, other than musicians, will ever be recruited by a concert band performance. Navy Bands are unlike the other services, the people sponsoring the band must pay for the travel, they do not have a travel budget. Take a look at the number of Air Force and Army Bands (and how they travel), then look at the number of Navy Bands out there. These handful of bands do not have a tour bus like the other services but I'm sure they love spending many hours a day in the comfort of government vans followed by a 5 ton equipment truck knowing that all of you feel their jobs are worthless. Most Navy Bands do not fly in CONUS, yes, it's just about always in their government vehicles with fuel paid by the sponsor. NOBODY carries their bags or sets up their stage for non-ceremonial performances, nothing but good PR comes from these performances. Frankly, sometimes the military needs good PR with the taxpayer (they do pay your salary). This blog is dripping of ignorance, most people writing just to shoot off their mouths about what the DON'T KNOW about military bands! Some of you wrote to voice your opinions but in the process showed how poorly informed you were regarding military bands. In my job, I work closely with Navy Bands and they efficient to say the least, and more patriotic than some here seem to be. Cutting them is hardly a savings worth noting. It is a sure bet that your service is wasting much more cash on useless programs or equipment that will never see the light of day than that spent on Navy Bands. To all of you linking Tops in Blue to military musicians, WAKE UP! TiB is not affiliated with military bands, and yes, probably a waste of time and money. Most military musicians have trained for years at their skills, they weren't sent to some military training school for 90 days to learn a skill that, if not filled by them, could be filled by the next recruit to stumble in to the recruiting office after barely passing their ASVAB test. Yes, that might be you, if the shoe fits.....

[Rev Mike Large]

Hey I'm not in a band and I don't think I will ever be in one. However, I recently supported a tour with one of the Air Force bands and I'll say this it's no cake walk. These people are busting their butts they set up and tear down their own shows. They travel on busses through some pretty isolated places to help spread the word of the Air Force! They personally acknowledge local recruits and pay tribute to those who have come before us. If anything, it is a grueling job to say the least...and they are great at what they do. They are pros! If we are hurting for money we should prolly trim some of the many NCOs sitting on their butts counting down till their retirement. To those who sit at their desk blogging about Air Force Musicians. I’m not a fan of Tops in Blue but it has its purpose in the grand scale of things. So get off of the bands backs. That is their job, and most of them are damn good at it. Desk jockeys…maybe you should get off yours and go make a difference and inspire a young airman like myself to be better than my Forefathers !

I gotta say... I like the points you make, Amn "Getwithit!" -- good to see some appreciation out there from the junior levels. Sounds like you may have some bitterness issues with us NCOs though...

I still feel like Tops in Blue should go -- and no one here has made any convincing argument yet for it to stay. But I think arguments like yours and the one before it serve to illustrate that it's irresponsible to dismiss the band as unnecessary. Maybe it can be trimmed down; maybe we should make the band members warriors first and foremost who "also" play the trombone. But do we need them? Yeah -- just like everyone else, they do serve a purpose and they do their jobs well.

[Unregistered]

Since when did so many non musicians become experts on military music? Oh ya... you played in the band in high school right? A few of you say "I've never seen military band" but in the next sentence say "get rid of them". Hmm... I've never seen how the public affairs shop does business, does that mean we should get rid of them? Does that qualify me to write an informed opinion about them? About as much as some of you writing about military musicians...

Aren’t there bigger things to worry about in the military?

[Unregistered]

Since when did so many non musicians become experts on military music? Oh ya... you played in the band in high school right? A few of you say "I've never seen military band" but in the next sentence say "get rid of them". Hmm... I've never seen how the public affairs shop does business, does that mean we should get rid of them? Does that qualify me to write an informed opinion about them? About as much as some of you writing about military musicians...

Aren’t there bigger things to worry about in the military?

There might be bigger issues to talk about, but this is the topic that was on the AF Times homepage...lol!

[Unregistered]

Maybe we should think about maybe downsizeing the programs for a while, but not getting rid of them all together. I would say taking a few of the tour dates of the schedule, getting different arrangements that would require less mucisians. Some bands out there are able to get the same big sound with less people.
I'm not sure but all I seem to see is a ceremonial concert bands playing, but I would much rather see a Marching band on the field.


Tops in Blues is really not my thing, but even if it was I would probably not be able to go see them since it seems like an exercise is scheduled everytime they are to make a stop here. Not complaining about the exercise, just saying that a big extraveganza is not really a top priority to Wing Commanders whose job it is to make sure that all Airmen on base are ready and able to goto war when called.

Also why is it that someone is automatically awarded Tech Seargent when they become and member of the AF Band, even if straight outta basic, I find this a bit backwards since there are so many out there that worked very hard for their rank only to see someone that has been in for like 6 months outrank them. If they ever leave the band then they are awarded the rank that they would have held at that time had they never joined the band, buy who would want to leave that.

[Shrike]

Also why is it that someone is automatically awarded Tech Seargent when they become and member of the AF Band, even if straight outta basic, I find this a bit backwards since there are so many out there that worked very hard for their rank only to see someone that has been in for like 6 months outrank them. If they ever leave the band then they are awarded the rank that they would have held at that time had they never joined the band, buy who would want to leave that.

I was told once it's because members of the USAF Band have very stringent minimum requirements that must be met before joining, such as four year music degrees, etc. The people that are accepted to the USAF Band could basically be playing in philharmonic orchestras, but joined the military to play instead.

Consider it a bonus, like the ones given to doctors and dentists, for people that could be making a heck of a lot more money elsewhere.


If anyone with direct knowledge of this can verify - or correct - the above, please do so.

[MSgtZ]

Whether you think TIB is a waste or not, TIB uses only a small portion of AF funds in the grand scheme of things. If any of you have watched a TIB show, you should have noticed the various banners on the lighting trusts and your program. Those banners are CIVILIAN SPONSORS that give money to TIB specifically for the sequins and costumes your accusing to be a waste. Please write to Coca-Cola, AT&T, First Command, among several other sponsors for further complaints.

And yes, it's true that more AF money is spent to support AF sports programs than TIB...so our Airmen serving in the capacity of playing baseball, softball, b-ball, and all other AF sports should be sent back to their bases to sit behind their desks as well.

[Boss Hog]

Interesting exhange.

Seems to this ol' band member and wardog that the new administration and the new economic reality/situation will resolve the argument.

The discretionary USAF budget will surely shrink, undoubtedly resulting in a diminution of non-ceremonial USAF band operations.

Additionally, the previous non-USAF monetary support of the Tops In Blue activities will also be negatively impacted. This will most likely result in the termination of this "no value added" program, as any cost/benefit analysis will dictate.

And the planet revolves...

[goldbadge]

I just want money for toner cartridges so I can put people in the Air Force. Seriously I'm being told we currently have no money to order any more. Mine will run out in the next month or so and I will be forced to go to the local movie theater and watch movies on while on duty.

[Rev Mike Large]

Sat through a TIB performance recently, just to gauge whether they've made any steps forward in the last couple of years. What I witnessed made me laugh almost continuously through the show. Yes, the talent is there. Great singers, capable dancing, and great musicians. But -- the show is so incredibly outdated and cheesy it is unreal. This tour, they're showing movie clips on the side screens and launching into the famous show tunes that correspond to each movie. Often, in costume.

And I do mean... IN COSTUME... LOL: http://www.jtfb.southcom.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/090122-F-0000H-001.JPG

There wasn't a movie or song featured that was less than 10-15 years old. Many were from further back. While I appreciate many things about the people doing the shows -- the hectic travel schedule, the hard work setting up and tearing down, the devotion and love of music and entertainment, etc. -- the bottom line is it serves no recruiting purpose, and is only effective as ambassadors to old people.

Yes, they are funded a lot by private sponsorship -- but at great manpower cost to their shops and career fields, and to the taxpayer funding their annual pay and benefits for a traveling show that gets more obsolete and cartoonish by the year.

[LOAL-D]

Sat through a TIB performance recently, just to gauge whether they've made any steps forward in the last couple of years. What I witnessed made me laugh almost continuously through the show. Yes, the talent is there. Great singers, capable dancing, and great musicians. But -- the show is so incredibly outdated and cheesy it is unreal. This tour, they're showing movie clips on the side screens and launching into the famous show tunes that correspond to each movie. Often, in costume.

And I do mean... IN COSTUME... LOL: http://www.jtfb.southcom.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/090122-F-0000H-001.JPG

There wasn't a movie or song featured that was less than 10-15 years old. Many were from further back. While I appreciate many things about the people doing the shows -- the hectic travel schedule, the hard work setting up and tearing down, the devotion and love of music and entertainment, etc. -- the bottom line is it serves no recruiting purpose, and is only effective as ambassadors to old people.

Yes, they are funded a lot by private sponsorship -- but at great manpower cost to their shops and career fields, and to the taxpayer funding their annual pay and benefits for a traveling show that gets more obsolete and cartoonish by the year.


LMAO, great photo Rev, USAF "warriors" performing a "combat" version of Beauty and the Beast!

[militarymusician123]

I was told once it's because members of the USAF Band have very stringent minimum requirements that must be met before joining, such as four year music degrees, etc. The people that are accepted to the USAF Band could basically be playing in philharmonic orchestras, but joined the military to play instead.

Consider it a bonus, like the ones given to doctors and dentists, for people that could be making a heck of a lot more money elsewhere.


If anyone with direct knowledge of this can verify - or correct - the above, please do so.


This is partially true. In each branch, there are 2 different types of bands. There are the "Premier" groups which are either located at each individual branch's Military Academy, or in Washington DC. Then there are the "Regional" groups that are stationed at various bases around the world.

The "Premier" groups are musicians that have passed rigorous audition processes that basically make them the cream of the crop if they are selected. Most if not all of these musicians are quite gifted and are probably able to make much more money in the civilian world; however, they choose to SERVE their country. Most of these musicians are HIGHLY trained (we're talking multiple degrees up to PhD in some cases) and are HIGHLY skilled at their craft prior to joining the military. The combination of the fact that they are already highly trained and could make more money as a civilian is the reason why Premier Bandsmen are promoted automatically to the E-6 paygrade. The military premier music programs would not be able to attract such high level musicians if it weren't because of this. Shoot ... I'd say 95% of these bandsmen could have become officers (and probably have taken some of the jobs of some of the previous) instead of becoming Enlisted musicians.

The "Regional" groups are musicians that are still very highly qualified, but in didn't opt for the Premier route for one reason or another. These musicians are not guaranteed E-6 like the Premier Bandsmen. They are just like any recruit, except in the Army, where they are promoted to Specialist (E-4) out of boot camp. All Regional Bandsmen must be able to pass an audition before being eligible to join the military as a Military Musician.

The main mission of most military music programs is to provide Ceremional Support. The bands end up doing MUCH more than just that. The music program reaches out to the community in a much different way than they see on television. They become the face of the military. In some areas of the world (and even CONUS), the communities see the bandsmen more than they see the rest of the military.

If you took the music programs away from the military, it would not be the same at all. Musicians have been a part of the military since the beginning of the military. And I'm not talking about just the American Military either. Music has always been a part of the military in one way or another.

Here are some links for everyone to check out about the music programs around the Military ...

Marine Corps Music Program (http://www.marines.com/main/index/making_marines/culture/traditions/music)
Air Force Music Program (http://www.bands.af.mil/)
Navy Music Program (http://www.npc.navy.mil/CommandSupport/NavyMusic/)
Army Music Program (http://www.goarmy.com/band/)


By the way ... I am a Navy Bandsman. I qualified for many other special programs (NUC, SPECWAR, OCS, and I even got accepted into the Naval Academy after High School). I chose to become a Military Musician instead. I take a lot of pride in being able to serve my country in such a special way. I wanted to be able to share the face of the military with the civilian population in this way. I'm very proud of what I do, and I am loving every minute of it!

[Silver Fox]

I think we should just cut down to one band for the military (excluding the Marine Corps band for the president.)

Same thing for the sports teams. Just have one sports team per service, take the best from all the branches and have them compete against semi professional/collegiate teams in the US and Canada, as well as foreign military and civillian teams. Then use that as a stepping stone to the olympics.

It promotes the joint image of the services, gives us a better showing as we can be more selective talent wise, AND IT SAVES MONEY while still giving folks the chance to do something 'fun' for a bit in the military! :)

[JAFO7]

From what I reading here, there are three seperate issues Premier Bands, Regional Bands and Tops and Blue.

Having served in the USAF Honor Guard in the past I saw first hand what the Premerier Ceremonial Band does and can appreciate there mission. They provide music at funeral at Arlingtion National Cemetary, Pentagon and elsewhere in the national capital region. In concert with each services honor guard they provide a critical piece of diplomatic protical for foriegn heads of state and military leaders, the Premier Ceremonial Band is mission critcal, however; the other premier band units like the Signing Seargeants, Jazz Band and such are not.

Regional Bands should be cut, we are alreading using a cd player to play taps in vertrans cemetary then you should have a band of the West!

Tops in Blue, what a waste (sorry to offend anyone) like previosly mentioned the USO already provided many top musical and comedy acts for overseas service members. As for recruiting with TIB, take a look at the TIB alumni website, the only people they recruit in the AF are people that want to dane and sign in TIB!

[sgtbob]

From what I reading here, there are three seperate issues Premier Bands, Regional Bands and Tops and Blue.

Having served in the USAF Honor Guard in the past I saw first hand what the Premerier Ceremonial Band does and can appreciate there mission. They provide music at funeral at Arlingtion National Cemetary, Pentagon and elsewhere in the national capital region. In concert with each services honor guard they provide a critical piece of diplomatic protical for foriegn heads of state and military leaders, the Premier Ceremonial Band is mission critcal, however; the other premier band units like the Signing Seargeants, Jazz Band and such are not.

Regional Bands should be cut, we are alreading using a cd player to play taps in vertrans cemetary then you should have a band of the West!

Tops in Blue, what a waste (sorry to offend anyone) like previosly mentioned the USO already provided many top musical and comedy acts for overseas service members. As for recruiting with TIB, take a look at the TIB alumni website, the only people they recruit in the AF are people that want to dane and sign in TIB!

Regional bands have been cut 25% over the last two years. As several people have said bands represent the face of the military to communities. The bands are strategically placed to cover as many areas of the world as possible. This is getting more difficult every year, but we continue to do it. Most Americans have no idea the Air Force is doing so much more overseas than just flying planes. We're trying to spread the message to as many people as we can reach.

Air Force bands do deploy as fully-trained combatants. Our primary mission, however, is music. All of our deployed groups perform "outside the wire" - the dangerous places Kid Rock wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. One of our deployed groups performed for local citizens in the AOR. Afterwards, some of the locals provided info to authorities about a terrorist cell nearby. No joke. The band can save lives. Music is a universal language you can use anywhere in the world to break down communication barriers.

As I've said before, the band is entirely self-contained. We don't just "play music" all day. We process EPRs, update MilPDS, DTS, EES, Form 9's, drive and load the trucks, and plan out every detail of every mission we do. By ourselves.

Also said before - cutting band's wouldn't save squat for money. For an individual, instruments cost a lot. For the Air Force, chump change. Seriously.

Apologies for the taped "Taps". Veterans are dying by the hundreds every day. There is no possible way we can support every funeral. Thank God for Honor Guards with a bugler who can take a few, and groups like "Bugles Across America" who can also help out. I fully intend to join in the effort after retirement.

No support for "Tops in Blue"? Well, here it is - Tops in Blue can work. They just need to change with the times. The bands are doing this slowly but surely, and there's no reason why Tops in Blue can't do the same. Just like anything in the military, it's not going to happen overnight.

I'll be deploying very soon. For those of you who deploy "outside the wire" and can't see the big USO celebrity shows, what type of music do you like? We need to know. If you seriously want to bury yourself in your I-pod whenever you get a few minutes break, by all means. But, if you'd like living, breathing people to come talk with you and help you relax and take your mind off your extremely difficult jobs, please let us know.

[Boss Hog]

JAFO7--

Me, 2. Been dere, done dat. (USAF Honor Guard vet, '68-'70.)

Understand import of USAF Ceremonial Band program (as a 'way former muscian). Also understand role of musical stuff in the USAF recruiting efffort. (Notice: I didn't capitalize "recruiting", and no one else should, either.) Tops in Blue was a real cute concept back in the 1970's, but it's DOA today.

Sorry, Sgt Bob. You're shoveling sh!t against the tide, dude. When us'uns be cuttin' loads of "mission-essential" crap, it's probably time to cut some fat, too. Prepare to find a real job soon.

[sgtbob]

JAFO7--

Me, 2. Been dere, done dat. (USAF Honor Guard vet, '68-'70.)

Understand import of USAF Ceremonial Band program (as a 'way former muscian). Also understand role of musical stuff in the USAF recruiting efffort. (Notice: I didn't capitalize "recruiting", and no one else should, either.) Tops in Blue was a real cute concept back in the 1970's, but it's DOA today.

Sorry, Sgt Bob. You're shoveling sh!t against the tide, dude. When us'uns be cuttin' loads of "mission-essential" crap, it's probably time to cut some fat, too. Prepare to find a real job soon.

Hmm...a non-violent weapon that helps locate insurgents is "unnecessary fat". Allright,whatever you say Boss.

Everyone in the band career field already knows and fully accepts there are people who "get" who we are and what we do and people who don't.

Of course, there are lots of people out there that think our entire Air Force is "unnecessary fat". So maybe we should all be looking for a "real job". Or at least deciding whether we look better in Navy blue or Army green. ;)

[Calmo70]

[QUOTE=sgtbob;233365]
As I've said before, the band is entirely self-contained. We don't just "play music" all day. We process EPRs, update MilPDS, DTS, EES, Form 9's, drive and load the trucks, and plan out every detail of every mission we do. By ourselves.[QUOTE]

Wrong - you are not self-contained. You do not drive trucks - certainly not in the AOR. And you plan out every mission with SF, Trans, and OSI. - You don't do it by yourself. So, try not to be so full of yourself.

[sgtbob]

[QUOTE=sgtbob;233365]
As I've said before, the band is entirely self-contained. We don't just "play music" all day. We process EPRs, update MilPDS, DTS, EES, Form 9's, drive and load the trucks, and plan out every detail of every mission we do. By ourselves.[QUOTE]

Wrong - you are not self-contained. You do not drive trucks - certainly not in the AOR. And you plan out every mission with SF, Trans, and OSI. - You don't do it by yourself. So, try not to be so full of yourself.

My apologies - I wasn't referring to the AOR, only stateside, where we do drive our own trucks.

We are incredibly grateful to the folks that support us and allow us to do our job, everywhere in the world.

All the "military paperwork" stuff - CSS, Admin, Finance, DTS, Supply, etc. is all done in-house, though. At our permanent bases stateside and overseas.

Just trying to let folks know it's not all "fun and games" and only playing music all day.

[Rev Mike Large]

JAFO7--

Me, 2. Been dere, done dat. (USAF Honor Guard vet, '68-'70.)

Understand import of USAF Ceremonial Band program (as a 'way former muscian). Also understand role of musical stuff in the USAF recruiting efffort. (Notice: I didn't capitalize "recruiting", and no one else should, either.) Tops in Blue was a real cute concept back in the 1970's, but it's DOA today.

Sorry, Sgt Bob. You're shoveling sh!t against the tide, dude. When us'uns be cuttin' loads of "mission-essential" crap, it's probably time to cut some fat, too. Prepare to find a real job soon.

Big Boss Man -- just wondering about your point wrt recruiting with a lowercase r... care to elaborate?

[LOAL-D]

Keep 'em if they play some AC/DC....

[Rev Mike Large]

Keep 'em if they play some AC/DC....

Amen!!! :D

[LOAL-D]

Amen!!! :D

ha ha but on second thought it would be tragic to have Back in Black come off sounding like a Rogers and Hammerstein broadway showtune....:D

[Rev Mike Large]

Or the opening bell on Hell's Bells to be rung on the chimes...

[LOAL-D]

Or the opening bell on Hell's Bells to be rung on the chimes...

Q: What do you do in the AF MSgt? A: I'm the first chair glockenspiel player.....

[Rev Mike Large]

Q: What do you do in the AF MSgt? A: I'm the first chair glockenspiel player.....

Step promote that man!!

[LOAL-D]

Step promote that man!!

On the fast track to Chief....:D

[fufu]

I'm in favor of axing AF bands, TiB, the Thunderbirds, all that drain of money............ Travel, per diem, equipment, special uniforms(t-birds, TiB PT uniform, etc)

[USAFVIKE]

I'm in favor of axing AF bands, TiB, the Thunderbirds, all that drain of money............ Travel, per diem, equipment, special uniforms(t-birds, TiB PT uniform, etc)

Agreed. TIB is a little too happy for my taste. It's like watching those Disney musicals. Save that money and get real musicians and entertainers. Kid Rock, Toby Keith, The Lt. Dan Band. Cheerleaders, Playmates, and some well known comedians.

[ringjamesa]

I'm in favor of axing AF bands, TiB, the Thunderbirds, all that drain of money............ Travel, per diem, equipment, special uniforms(t-birds, TiB PT uniform, etc)

While we're at it why not axe the Old Guard? The Marine Corps Band? Blue Angels? Black Knights? Honor Guards? They are only for cermonies and public events anyway, just get some yahoo off the street to do that.... Who cares what the public sees?

[mjt]

From what I'm reading, am I right in assuming the Navy/Army/Marines all serve in a combat capability if the mission dictates it? And in the Air Force, a band member will always be a band member?

If band members count against the militarys end strength numbers, then reduction, and/or redistribution of manning to other career fields is where the true cost benefit will come from, not the program budget itself.

And to Sgt Bob, in my experience, "self contained" units is the way of the Air Force. Every unit I see does their own EPR's, order(s) processing, lodging/travel arrangements, etc..being "self contained" as you describe is not doing the rest of the Air Force a favor, it's simply doing your job.

It is hard to justify the band(s) when recruiting goals and manning levels have been lowered, while many career fields continue to be overstressed with no relief in sight.

[fufu]

Who cares what the public sees?

Not me.................

[oih82w8]

...while people are traveling the world putting on a show that is obsolete and nobody cares about.

We just had the Tops in Blue here at UNDISCLOSED LOCATION, and they had to pull people off of the sand to fill SOME of the seats. That is the last thing I want to see after my shift is this group of showboats who are trying to entertain to populace.

[oih82w8]

Speaking as one of those military musicians, I must put in my two cents...

If you put your two cents in and someone gives you a penny for your thoughts where does the other penny go?

[oih82w8]

Speaking as one of those military musicians, I must put my two cents in...

If you put your two cents in and someone gives you a penny for your thoughts where does the other penny go?

[oih82w8]

Just Another F*%king Observer?

[oih82w8]

JAFO7

Just Another F*%king Observer?

[oih82w8]

ha ha but on second thought it would be tragic to have Back in Black come off sounding like a Rogers and Hammerstein broadway showtune....:D

Have you guys heard the Pat Boone CD "No more Mr. Nice Guy, In a Metal Mood"? Whooo!