"Is Hard Labor Fair" ...are you serious?

[VFFSSGT]

In this week’s Air Force Times, there is a 3 page story concerning "hard labor" and whether or not it is fair. Are you kidding me? Hard labor is not supposed to be fair! Life is not fair!

Pvt Suarez complains about hard labor after popping positive on a urinalysis. He should have been grateful he was not kicked out. I bet he is less likely to use drugs again…

Petty Officer Pablo Paredes is mentioned, pictured, and quoted in the article complains about hard labor after “he refused to deploy to the Persian Gulf in 2004, saying he disagreed with the war in Iraq and war in general.” If you disagree with war then why did you joined the Armed Services? Then he has the audacity to complain about hard labor. “…There was no water or restroom.” Well, if he deployed and did what he took an oath to do he would have had access to well cleaned port-a-potties and bottled water, even a camel back if he was lucky.

Join this military, asked to do what you joined for, refuse, and then complain about punishment? You have got to be kidding me. Just another example of someone trying to mooch off the US Government and get something for nothing… I cannot believe this is even a featured article in the Times.

[Kegler]

Too funny! Dont break the rules and you will not have to do hard labor...easy easy. I am one that wants to bring back Correctional Custody at all the bases too! AF Times wasted a few pages printing nonsense...not the first time nor the last:rolleyes:

[JetTeach]

VFFSSGT, you and I see one hundred percent eye-to-eye on this one.

[JohnnyReb]

Also throwin' MY hat in about having correctional custody at ALL the bases again, too!

Er...when did all of them stop having it??? (I am currently AGR, so don't get ALL the active duty poop)

[CrustySMSgt]

Times are really bad when complaining about working goes beyond the average Airman complaining about work... but PRISONERS complaining about work... heRE's a tip, DON'T BREAK THE LAW!

[Smeghead]

Send them to Sherriff Joe, see if they compain then

[Proud Mom]

Send them to Sherriff Joe, see if they compain then


LOL...Shhhhhhhhhhhh...you'll bring the Sherriff Joe argument here ...Shhhhhh

Do the crime pay the price. Make big rocks smaller rocks. Then think twice before you do wrong again.

[T-Bird]

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p194/azgolfin/MILITARYprison.jpg


Hard Labor is too hard, that's rich! Let's send them to this country club for a while.

[VFFSSGT]

:D Someone call the media, we might have a historic moment here...wait for it...shrike where are you...are we all actually going to agree on something...??:eek:

[Shrike]

I'll let my opinion be known by paraphrasing Dennis Miller: "It's not a damned country club, it's PRISON. You want a weight room? It's called your cell; get in there and wait."

What's next? Complaints that the foam on the capuccino in the prison dining room isn't frothy enough, and there's no mint on the pillow at night?

The easiest way to avoid having to do hard labor in prison is to refrain from engaging in activities that result in going to prison. It's not that hard to do; most people do just that every day.

As for the P.O. that refused to deploy because he didn't believe in war - I have great sympathy for all currently serving draftees who are conscientious objectors.

[T-Bird]

:D Someone call the media, we might have a historic moment here...wait for it...shrike where are you...are we all actually going to agree on something...??:eek:

I'll let my opinion be known by paraphrasing Dennis Miller: "It's not a damned country club, it's PRISON. You want a weight room? It's called your cell; get in there and wait."

What's next? Complaints that the foam on the capuccino in the prison dining room isn't frothy enough, and there's no mint on the pillow at night?

The easiest way to avoid having to do hard labor in prison is to refrain from engaging in activities that result in going to prison. It's not that hard to do; most people do just that every day.

As for the P.O. that refused to deploy because he didn't believe in war - I have great sympathy for all currently serving draftees who are conscientious objectors.

The two of you just tickle me crazy! I do enjoy reading your words of enlightment. Now if I could just get the two of you to join me on horseback patrol with the Minuteman down on the border........:D

OK, I'll let you use the jeep!:D

[BRUWIN]

I think the Army guy in question was treated to harshly for a NON-VIOLENT crime. He's a drug user and should be kicked out...not cracking rocks. Save the rock for the rapists and child molesters.

[ramprat]

late 50,s at little rock afb:
the flt line people had to police up the ditches on all roads leading to the flt from the clerk part
of the base which included several blocks in length and width. on occasion this happened
during rain . the stockade prisoners rode busses to the mess hall so exposure to rain was minimul,
and never policed the ditches on the base during my time there (55-62) . the stockade also had the
first color tv on the base.
one of the base commanders was named in the book "going downtown,the war againist hanoi and
washington" by col jack broughton also the author of "thud ridge".
a must read for your education .

[Gunner007]

For those who have to do additional "duty" details like picking up trash and manual labor'ish chores that may be considered hard labor get real! Picking up rocks, bleaching them and then putting them back in the flower beds was a normal Amn detail when i came in. Amn routinely were tasked to clean aircraft with Citri-clean, a citric acid degreaser that burned the paint off the aircraft along with the skin on our hands and arms, scraping bird poop off the tops of the hangar queens, using MEK (a now known carcinogen and hazardous materiel) to clean oil spots off concrete in the parking lot (with no gloves mind you), spending all day cleaning grounding points on the flightline... The stuff most people are given as hard labor today pales in comparison to some of the normal daily duties Amn use to do daily.
We have guys get additional duty for NJP, they arent digging a hole then filling it up and digging it again, they are sitting at the duty desk answering phones for 4 hours after their normal duty day is over or washing vehicles.
I wouldnt say his punishment was over the top IF they had let him stay in. In my mind if your going to punish a guy and set an example dont kick him out too! Either he is a lost cause and you kick him out, maybe with some confinement or he is salvageable in which case you punish him, set an example for everyone else and then let bygones be bygones. Its not right to punish someone severely AND kick them out for a minor offense.
I dont feel bad the guy had to dig a hole for 16 hours a day, if i were him, i would rather dig a hole for 16 hours a day for a few weeks and have a career left than get booted out! Pulling weeds with no gloves... i grew up farming and as a kid none of the gloves we had fit me so i cleaned plenty of fence row with no gloves on, yeah it sucks but if they had let the guy stay in i wouldnt have a issue with it as punishment.
The idea of punishment is its suppose to hurt, its not suppose to feel good if it did it wouldnt be a deterrent!
My only real problem with any of these guys in the stories is that they shouldnt be discharged after their punishment!

[CommunityEditor]

Is hard labor fair? (http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2008/09/airforce_hardlabor_090408/)


For 35 days this summer, Pvt. John Suarez worked from 9 a.m. until midnight in a Kevlar helmet, full body armor and a packed ruck, digging foxholes at Fort Lewis, Wash.

His hands turned to sandpaper. His lower back felt like someone had kicked him. Every time he swung his pickax, soreness flooded his wrists.

“It was pretty exhausting,” said Suarez, 20, who was sentenced to 45 days’ hard labor in a summary court-martial after a urinalysis test came up positive for cocaine. “It was like dirt and rock. The soil here is pretty bad.”

His first sergeant told him that his battalion commander, Lt. Col. Richard Demaree, of the 2nd Battalion, 1st Infantry Regiment, 5th Stryker Brigade Combat Team, had ordered that Suarez could not do goal-oriented work; the foxholes were for naught.

On weekdays, he did morning physical training with his unit, then reported for hole-digging. On weekends, he dug from 6 a.m. to midnight. Every day, he laid out a square from pick handle to pick handle, and then dug until he could stand in the hole up to his nametag.

Fortunately, he said, he’s only 5-foot-6.

At night, he had five or six hours to shower, do laundry and sleep.

“I heard it was the first time they’d had hard labor at Fort Lewis since World War II,” he said.

The Uniform Code of Military Justice says unit commanders determine the form of hard labor without confinement, which can be given only to enlisted troops, not officers. But the UCMJ and service regulations offer little guidance on such issues as hours or safety guidelines.

That has led to what lawyers call inequitable inconsistencies. For example, Suarez spent weeks digging holes and then was discharged from the Army for the drug offense. But a Marine convicted of pummeling prisoners in a jail in Iraq had his hard labor disapproved by a two-star general — and, after leaving the Corps, enlisted in the Army.

In one case, a sailor who claimed conscientious objector status and refused to deploy to Iraq spent weeks pulling weeds in a vacant lot until his hands bled. But a soldier convicted of prisoner abuse in Iraq was allowed to work in a post gym.

The regulations on hard labor — a phrase that seems rooted in a long-gone era — are as vague as they are disparate. In the Navy, sailors cannot have mustaches while doing hard labor, although they do not have to perform hard labor on their Sabbath. Marines may be punished with no more than three days of bread and water. Soldiers must have at least three Meals, Ready to Eat per day. Air Force regulations add nothing — just refer lawyers back to the vague UCMJ guidelines.

The lack of guidance has led some troops sentenced to hard labor to be given activities more aptly described as “extra duty,” while others perform grueling, and possibly dangerous, work.

In a 2004 article on military hard labor published in the journal Army Lawyer, Maj. Joseph Berger III wrote that others pick up cigarette butts and paint rocks to beautify unit areas.

Berger said there is definitely a place for hard labor in the military justice system, but added that the key is consistency, which he called “the critical component of any successful contemporary plan for executing sentences to hard labor without confinement.”

Several lawyers said such consistency is sorely lacking today, noting that the many service members who test hot for drugs are either processed out of the military or serve a few months’ confinement, which makes it hard to consider Suarez’s punishment equitable.

Some lawyers even termed it “cruel and unusual.”

‘Lucky they didn’t kill the kid’
Finally, on Day 40 of Suarez’s sentence, a voice came from above: No more.

“When informed of the sentence, the commanding general, I Corps and Fort Lewis, ordered that Private Suarez’s hard labor cease in order to review the use of hard labor and what systems must be in place to ensure the consistent safety and welfare of the soldier during the execution of the sentence to hard labor,” Fort Lewis spokesman Joseph Piek said in an e-mail.

Piek confirmed the details of Suarez’s summary court-martial and that he worked 15- to 18-hour days digging holes until his punishment was modified on the 35th day, when he was allowed to ditch the helmet, armor and ruck and work in a soft cap and T-shirt.

Piek also said that as a result of Suarez’s case, Fort Lewis is developing guidelines for hard labor without confinement.

“While the punishment carried out ... was lawful, the chain of command wants to ensure that hard labor without confinement punishments are implemented in a manner designed to rehabilitate the soldier, while safeguarding his safety and welfare,” he said.

Piek said “it would not be appropriate” for Demaree to discuss Suarez’s punishment with Military Times. According to Army regulations, hard labor should be performed where others can see the soldier. It may not include duties that “constitute a safety or health hazard,” but it “may include duty to induce fatigue.”

And the hours to be worked are left completely to the commander.

Piek said the new Fort Lewis policy in development “would ensure that hard labor without confinement punishments are uniform ... and that appropriate oversight for such punishments is accomplished.”

Lawyers who represent troops from all services say that needs to happen on a much broader scale.

“They’re lucky they didn’t kill the kid with heat-related injuries,” said Vaughan Taylor, who said he has seen hard labor handed out only once in the 30 years he has represented service members as a defense lawyer.

“Nine to midnight — that’s inhumane,” Taylor said. “That could qualify as cruel and unusual.”

He said hard labor is difficult to enforce because someone must supervise the convicted person at all times. That takes time away from real work — which is why most commanders avoid it.

But Taylor said he has seen some instances in which hard labor was not senseless. In the 1960s, soldiers sentenced to hard labor cleared swampland at Fort Lee, Va. And when he was stationed in Germany, Taylor said hard-labor soldiers painted the interiors of barracks.

“It was pretty arduous,” he said, “but at least it was productive.”

Taylor said service regulations could provide some guidelines as to how strenuous hard labor can be, the hours people can work and what is considered safe — adding that such guidelines already exist for people going through arduous training or transitioning into the hot climate of Iraq.

“The type and amount of hard labor is a command function of the imposing commander and not governed by” standard operating procedure, Army spokesman Lt. Col. George Wright said.

The Army “relies on well-trained and well-educated commanders ... supported by Army lawyers, to determine the character of hard labor,” he said.

Wright did not respond to a question about how often soldiers are sentenced to hard labor, but he noted they always have the right to appeal the punishment.

Gene Fidell, president of the National Institute of Military Justice, said that putting so much discretion in the hands of commanders creates a “danger that there will be wildly divergent punishments.”

He called hard labor without confinement “archaic” and said the military should review the entire concept.

Civilian society has mostly done away with hard labor, he said, in favor of organizing work crews to pick up garbage or paint over graffiti — tasks that contribute to the betterment of society.

“The fact is, our values have changed,” he said. “It degrades the whole system. It’s like putting someone in the stocks. This is the kind of thing that gives military justice a bad name.”

Hard labor without confinement can be given as a punishment only as part of a court-martial sentence. Extra duty is a nonjudicial punishment that can be administered without a trial.

After the sentence is handed down at a court-martial, the actual form of labor is left to the member’s commander. Defense attorneys usually don’t check up on the punishment unless their clients make a complaint.

All the services say they do not keep centralized logs of the actual duty ordered, and only one — the Air Force — responded to a Military Times inquiry about how often the sentence is handed out: Since January 2006, 276 airmen have been sentenced to hard labor without confinement.


To read the full article, please go here ---> http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2008/09/airforce_hardlabor_090408/

[Old School SNCO]

It doesn't seem too long ago he did these types of tasks as "details" now they want to call it too tough for hard labor? I guess "don't do the crime if you can't do the time" fits here. Even moreso maybe we need to look at how times have changed and how tasks we did years ago and didn't think twice about are now considered too tough for hard labor, too demeaning, etc. A good lessons learned that "not all change is good".

[MACHINE666]

I've heard that European prisons are alot nicer than our US prisons, and they don't have any of the prison love . If I'm going to break the law, I'd rather do time at a country club resort and "rehabilitate" me from my sinful ways, than to get butt-duked by Tiny and his boys on a nightly basis.

:D

[warr1or]

I just read the article on Hard labor, and I find it humorous that the punished wound up complaining.

They should have been sent to jail and kicked out, obviously their commanding officers went soft, especially for the guy who tested positive for coke. I would have booted him so fast he'd still be a blur traveling around the world.

[Measure Man]

I just read the article on Hard labor, and I find it humorous that the punished wound up complaining.

They should have been sent to jail and kicked out, obviously their commanding officers went soft, especially for the guy who tested positive for coke. I would have booted him so fast he'd still be a blur traveling around the world.

He would have rather had you...

He was discharged AFTER the hard labor:

For example, Suarez spent weeks digging holes and then was discharged from the Army for the drug offense.

[THOMDAVIES]

I don't do drugs, never done drugs SO I agree there should be punishment BUT: At some level lets pass it around. PVT Suarez had a lawyer who apparently was not doing his job. Let him get out there and start digging. The CO had a lawyer let him get out there and help. The CO should have been keeping his Boss in the loop, so it is interesting that it took 40 days for the CG to say "oh crap." I am from GA and I miss the chain gangs, oops work details.

Something is missing in the article. He was court martialed. He should have known he was being kicked out after the "hard labor," unless there was a caveat for rehab. If all he did was piss and moan then there was no rehab.

BLUF: Let's all be held accountable for our screw ups.

[warr1or]

He would have rather had you...

He was discharged AFTER the hard labor:

Oops! I somehow missed that! Well, that's actually pretty funny.

[LQUINONE]

Have anyone heard of correctional custody? I remember those days when I was a Marine stationed in Okinawa and some marines were punished and sent there. 30 days of it and they came back mostly better marines and squared away.

[Unregistered]

They should treat them like prisioners of war like the communist did in Vietnam!! Starve them, beat them, perform mock executions, hang them from the ceiling with hand cuffs for days, electrocute them, and have the MP's blindfolded beat them like they are pinatas, simulate drowning with them, burn their feet and hands, urinate on them, deficate on them, and beat them with whips and chains and bamboo canes!! They will straighten up then!! If they do not kill them and put their dead stinking corps on their maggot families doors!!!

[booyey]

Gosh people. Have you ever actually sat down and spoken to someone who was court martialed? They are not all maggots. I am involved in the AF criminal justice system, and most of the airman are very nice people who did one stupid act. Maybe it was getting drunk at a party and pressured into cocaine, or sleeping with a girl (both drunk) and the next day she claims rape, or a thousand other stupid things (BTW, I'm female). But believe me, when you actually talk to them and they cry and say how stupid they were and they've wrecked their life and their family's life, you wouldn't be so quick to label them all as scumbags. I'm not saying child molesters, etc aren't disgusting and deserve what they get, but for a drug offense? Come on. While not right, it's not the crime of the century either.

[leroybrown2k5]

Hey Suarez:
WWWWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH HHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <SNIFF> <SNIFF> WWWWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH HHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The worst part is this kid probably will snort/smoke/inject/ingest/inhale again before he is out.

[unregister and I love it!]

Gosh people. Have you ever actually sat down and spoken to someone who was court martialed? They are not all maggots. I am involved in the AF criminal justice system, and most of the airman are very nice people who did one stupid act. Maybe it was getting drunk at a party and pressured into cocaine, or sleeping with a girl (both drunk) and the next day she claims rape, or a thousand other stupid things (BTW, I'm female). But believe me, when you actually talk to them and they cry and say how stupid they were and they've wrecked their life and their family's life, you wouldn't be so quick to label them all as scumbags. I'm not saying child molesters, etc aren't disgusting and deserve what they get, but for a drug offense? Come on. While not right, it's not the crime of the century either.

I say hang them all! Start out with them pussy footed people who work in the legal office. They are a bunch of bleeding heart liberals. Bet you would sing a different tune if you had been drugged, raped, beat up, then nude photos of you were posted on a website for all on post to see. Yeah, I bet you would be sitting there carrying on a subtle conversation, offering coffee and donuts, and giving out warm fuzzies!

[leroybrown2k5]

I didn't curse I just stated the obvious and now I am the scourge of the mods and the liberal left pro Criminal Rights Crowd.

Well too bad! Why in the world should a good Soldier/Sailor/Marine/Airmen give a good G.D. about what a criminal thinks about his punishment. Do the crime do the time. Oh and for those nameless pansies and left wing liberal nut jobs who give me such a bad rating for this post two things:

WWWWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH HHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and

Eat my shorts!! :D :D !:D

[SSG Retired]

Boy, is this a "touchy" subject! Our society is losing it's backbone. The military has always been a tough life. Hard labor should be just that, HARD! While I do agree that there is a need for control and equity it should still be an absolute miserable experience with no benefit to anyone. The civilian prison system is over crowded and failing at rehabilitation in part because society refuses to inflict punishment. Charles Manson was convicted for his part in murdering people, but is still alive and sucking down taxpayers money for the rest of his life. He will probably never see parole, so he will live to a ripe old age on money that could be used for a better use within the prison system.
Within the military we have our own standards of conduct. Any leader can inflict punishment, when an infraction is elevated to a higher level the punishment should be elevated also. If you are "convicted" of whatever infraction or crime then your punishment should be severe enough to prevent you for ever thinking of crossing the line again! If you are sore, tired, or bleeding then so be it. I do think there should be equity and control, but it should be HARD. With a war going on we no longer have the resources to house or control larger prison populations in military jails. So hard labor is an excellent tool!

[dapack69]

While I do agree with that hard labor has its time and place, some of the things in that article went to far for my blood.

Personally I see no getting limited sleep to just 5-6 hours over such a long period of time. I believe that a person should have at least one day a week to catch up and get a full eight hours. Also, pulling weeds without gloves could violate the OSHA standards set in place to protect people. Pull weeds all day long, just use the proper equipment.

[SSG Retired]

While I do agree with that hard labor has its time and place, some of the things in that article went to far for my blood.

Personally I see no getting limited sleep to just 5-6 hours over such a long period of time. I believe that a person should have at least one day a week to catch up and get a full eight hours. Also, pulling weeds without gloves could violate the OSHA standards set in place to protect people. Pull weeds all day long, just use the proper equipment.

How about the service members that were on the invasion of Iraq? They did not do anything wrong and they got very limited sleep. OSHA? They can advise the military, but they cannot fine them or shut them down. The proper equipment for the job? Hard labor is not about accomplishing a job it about HARD LABOR! the best and cheapest method for removing weeds is pulling them by hand!

As for the other post from the legal beagle - Everyone in the service knows there is zero tolerance for drugs in the military. The only mistake they made was not having the guts to stand for what is right! They cry on your shoulder because they are facing a punishment for being weak and they are trying to win you over on their side. Also, punishing a service member in this manner also sends a message to all of the others.

[BUARISING]

I say hang them all! Start out with them pussy footed people who work in the legal office. They are a bunch of bleeding heart liberals. Bet you would sing a different tune if you had been drugged, raped, beat up, then nude photos of you were posted on a website for all on post to see. Yeah, I bet you would be sitting there carrying on a subtle conversation, offering coffee and donuts, and giving out warm fuzzies!

Okay, if someone was drugged, raped, beaten and nude photos posted, the perpetrator wouldn't even be given HLWC. They would be in prison. What my point was that for drug use, I think 5-6 hours sleep with back breaking labor w/o proper equipment is ridiculous. Good gosh, I hope I never get you on one of my juries.

[Gunner007]

What i dislike the most right now with the way we handle people who screw up is the ONE mistake USAF. In order for people to evolve and mature and grow into good leaders with good sense they have to make mistakes to learn lifes lessons. I dont mean child molesters and the like i mean guys who get caught smoking pot, being late one to many times, fighting at a bar, mostly the non violent (except fighting) crimes that people do in their young naive years. I dont advocate keeping crack heads in uniform or anything like that but someone who folds to peer pressure and maybe smokes a joint shouldnt have his whole life pissed away because of it.
Article 15 certainly! Hard labor, YES! But i think we can give someone the chance to turn things around and learn from their mistakes. Immature people do stupid stuff, thats a part of growing and learning. Anyone who says they have never done anything wrong is full of it! There was a time when we would drink and fight and carry on over the weekends and some of us ended up getting busted. I learned alot in my early days in the USAF and it made me a better supervisor and leader for my guys now. I wasnt perfect and more than likely most of the people shouting off with their heads, werent either, you just didnt get caught!
I am not saying give people a slap on the hand, i am saying give them a stiff punishment and allow them to continue to serve. Amn Snuffy telling his buddies at the dorms how he had to work 16 hour days until his hands bled for getting into a bar fight is a bigger incentive for those other young Amn to stay out of trouble than Amn snuffy being honorably or generally discharged.

[Vince]

Hard labor is about as laughable as extra duty. From what I saw of those two things which amounted to be parked on CQ for 12 hours shifts....wow, tough punishment. Your experience with it might vary, that's just what I saw...

[CommunityEditor]

Editorial: Define hard labor (http://www.armytimes.com/community/opinion/army_editorial_hardlabor_090808/)


A soldier who tested positive for illegal drugs was made to dig holes for up to 15 hours a day in midsummer wearing his helmet, flak jacket and full ruck.

Meanwhile, another soldier was convicted of assaulting detainees in an Iraqi prison. He was made to paint barbells and move equipment inside a base gym.

Otherwise, the only thing these two have in common is that both received the same sentence at court-martial: hard labor without confinement.

The disparities in how those sentences were carried out raise serious questions about the law that allows for hard labor sentences and the way the military administers them.

The trouble is, the sentences are handed down by judges, but the punishment is administered by commands — with virtually no guidance on what is and is not acceptable.

So hard labor can be as laughably soft as picking up trash, or as startlingly harsh as the soldier who dug holes all day, every day, for 40 days — until his post commander got wind of it and commuted the sentence five days before it was to end.

“They’re lucky they didn’t kill the kid,” one legal expert said.

In an organization with reams of regs for every little thing, there is virtually no guidance on hard labor. Nor does anyone keep track of how often it is administered or whether the punishments have any semblance of consistency or fairness.

This archaic punishment has all but vanished from the civilian justice system. If military leaders want it to continue in their system, they must specifically define acceptable forms of labor, as well as work conditions and safety guidelines, and include those in the Uniform Code of Military Justice and the Manual for Courts-Martial.

[booyey]

What i dislike the most right now with the way we handle people who screw up is the ONE mistake USAF. In order for people to evolve and mature and grow into good leaders with good sense they have to make mistakes to learn lifes lessons. I dont mean child molesters and the like i mean guys who get caught smoking pot, being late one to many times, fighting at a bar, mostly the non violent (except fighting) crimes that people do in their young naive years. I dont advocate keeping crack heads in uniform or anything like that but someone who folds to peer pressure and maybe smokes a joint shouldnt have his whole life pissed away because of it.
Article 15 certainly! Hard labor, YES! But i think we can give someone the chance to turn things around and learn from their mistakes. Immature people do stupid stuff, thats a part of growing and learning. Anyone who says they have never done anything wrong is full of it! There was a time when we would drink and fight and carry on over the weekends and some of us ended up getting busted. I learned alot in my early days in the USAF and it made me a better supervisor and leader for my guys now. I wasnt perfect and more than likely most of the people shouting off with their heads, werent either, you just didnt get caught!
I am not saying give people a slap on the hand, i am saying give them a stiff punishment and allow them to continue to serve. Amn Snuffy telling his buddies at the dorms how he had to work 16 hour days until his hands bled for getting into a bar fight is a bigger incentive for those other young Amn to stay out of trouble than Amn snuffy being honorably or generally discharged.

YES! Exactly. But right now people are given a general discharge, losing their GI Bill, for minor things. The money this costs the AF in training alone is astounding.

[Totally Unregistered]

There is definitely an issue with "The One Mistake Air Force," but that's an entirely different discussion. Turning to the issue at hand, the punishments imposed at Article 15 and summary courts-martial are supposed to be for rehabilitative purposes. Hard labor without confinement, if properly conceived and imposed by the executing authority, will properly support rehabilitative goals. Anyone who has ever been through Marine Corps boot camp can attest to the fact that the seemingly senseless abuse they suffered ultimately had the greater effect of instilling an immeasurable amount of discipline; they just didn't realize it at the time. Hard labor can have the same effect, if imposed properly, though not to the same degree. Those Air Force bases that still have Correctional Custody units will probably see much better results than hard labor without confinement, but in the absense of Correctional Custody units, hard labor can still be an effective tool. The executing authority has to ensure that the labor is structured with specific goals in mind, however. Punishment can be one, rehabilitation can be another; discipline should be paramount. The problem will be exacerbated, however, when lawyers, activists and the media get involved. Denizens of the ivory towers will get everyone worked into a frenzy and spend endless amounts of energy just making the situation worse, without solving anything. But that's what happens when we leave the decision making to a bunch of people who have never been leaders, never been followers, and have only sat on the sidelines as commentators and advisers. We need to leave this in the hands of the commanders, and rely on them to exercise proper leadership.They are fully capable if we allow it, regardless of what spineless lawyers and journalists believe.

[Unregistered]

I think that there is something wrong when we can make a soldier do har labor but we arent even allowed to make the inmates at the USDB do hard labor.

[THELADYKT]

Editorial: Define hard labor (http://www.armytimes.com/community/opinion/army_editorial_hardlabor_090808/)

The disparities in how those sentences were carried out raise serious questions about the law that allows for hard labor sentences and the way the military administers them.

The trouble is, the sentences are handed down by judges, but the punishment is administered by commands — with virtually no guidance on what is and is not acceptable.


This is the main thing I took away from the article after I got past the waaaahhhh factor. There needs to be consistency and guidance so commanders can't abuse the power. The way it is a commander with a grudge could possibly come close to killing someone. Also the same punishment for the same thing, do drugs and commander A could give the digging holes thing and commander B could make you answer phones after hours.......

But as someone else mentioned, make it hard but make it something that actually contributes something to others. If we need to break up rocks for new landscaping so be it....if it means painting building for 12-14 hours so be it..... or digging holes in a deployed environment. But there needs to be some framework in place.

JMHO

[JMullen]

I find it simply astounding that they would even publish such an article in a military newspaper. Frankly, some of the responses that the people that have posted before me me are a tad-bit hilarious as well. I don't know what the duty titles are of anyone else that posted, but drugs are a serious crime in the miltary. Yes, as someone mentioned before, it's not the crime of the century, and, no, it's not a "violent crime," but anyone that has ever experienced something called a live-fire range or exiting a high-performance aircraft knows the comfort that comes with knowing the man or woman next to you is not coked out.

We operate in a different field than Joe's Crab Shack waiters. Punishment is not supposed to be something you brush off. It's made to make you remember - crime and consequence. Sure, not all people that mess up, royally or marginally, are reprehensible convicts, but, point of fact, if they are executing an imposed punishment and all they can think about is how the military is "picking on them," then a little bit of sweat and tears in Kansas' finest resort & hotel is what they need to learn what breaking the law entails.

Plus, I don't know how the Air Force runs their hard labor, but in the Army and Marines, hard labor only warrants four hours of sleep a day, so 0900 to 2300 or 2400 is pretty fair.

No offense, but Soldiers and Marines have this saying that, "If you can't take it, then go join the Air Force," but this was an USAF article, so I don't know what else to say, but start practicing, "Would you like fries with that." I don't think McLabor has been put into effect to date.

[Gunner007]

I find it simply astounding that they would even publish such an article in a military newspaper. Frankly, some of the responses that the people that have posted before me me are a tad-bit hilarious as well. I don't know what the duty titles are of anyone else that posted, but drugs are a serious crime in the miltary. Yes, as someone mentioned before, it's not the crime of the century, and, no, it's not a "violent crime," but anyone that has ever experienced something called a live-fire range or exiting a high-performance aircraft knows the comfort that comes with knowing the man or woman next to you is not coked out.

I agree on the point that during a live fire exercise being on drugs would have a serious consequence. What i diskike is a zero tolerance one size fits all punishment or thought process. No Amn shouldnt be doing drugs but a guy who got high on the weekend should be treated differently than a guy who got high and came to work or a guy who came to work high and handled weapons. Each situation is different and the dangers aree different. I simply dont like one size fits all punishment, it goes back to shotgun style leadership where everyone pays the same price for someone elses mistake.
Of course each of those examples should be punished!! But i would vote for a LDB trip for the guy high handling weapons and a hard labor punishment for the guy who got high on the weekend. We need to see that while a crime may be the same the cricumstances may not be.
As for your saying about the USAF, well you definitely have a point. The Army and USMC are harsher more physically demanding branches, you wont hear me argue with you on that one, but a lot of thin skinned people here might.
Thats where you see less room for someone who is say using drugs. Where you see them as being extremely dangerous to others in your MOS/AFSC someone who works at say a USAF chow hall may not see it as such a big deal. its all in your perspective and that perspective isnt the same and all i am saying is the punishments shouldnt always be the same.

[kojack]

Wait until that kid at Lewis gets an attorney, goes to the media, and drops the race bomb.... He'll walk away from Lewis the big winner.

[Unregistered]

Depends on the crime. Futhermore it beats wasting money on General Court Martials which some people don't learn from anyways...now he'll definitely consider twice doing something stupid.

[oldnavy6618]

I think I remember this case from the papers. The Knothead sat on the pier as the ship deployed, with some stupid anti-war shirt on. He refused orders to board the ship. He made it obvious he deserted his command. I thought he should have been tried for desertion, and shot.

[FLAPS]

I say hang them all! Start out with them pussy footed people who work in the legal office. They are a bunch of bleeding heart liberals.

You should take comfort in the fact we have a relatively fair justice system, and "pussy footed people," as you call them, who will actually fight for your legal rights. They may be the only thing between you and a nice, healthy prison term.

Perhaps you should go live in Iran, N. Korea or China, where their definition of fair punishment is more in line with yours.

[weazlefuzion]

Too funny! Dont break the rules and you will not have to do hard labor...easy easy. I am one that wants to bring back Correctional Custody at all the bases too! AF Times wasted a few pages printing nonsense...not the first time nor the last:rolleyes:

You get a gold star!


If people didn't break the law, they wouldn't have to worry about hard labor. Plain and simple. Last time I checked, there was no Dept. of the ACLU in the DoD. Hard Labor is supposed to be... wait for it... HARD.

[seyca]

All of you supporters of hard labor for this guy, you're basically being p**sies for taking any shit from the US government military command. What if you happen to be the greatest figter pilot around, and like to party it up occasionally with your admiring audience, which means mostly drinking but the occasional whiff of weed or slight toke in the off-duty moment.

Is there no off-duty time in the military? Or have you given your life over completely to the government.

By the way, I agree with hard labor, but don't agree with having the government purposely raping US civiltan prisoners, I think it's obscene to sentence men to violent, forced anal sex by groups of hostile fellow prisoners, possible ownership to another prisoner in return for personal protection. In the US prison system, between 10-20% of men are routinely raped, often meted out as punishment by the prison staff on behalf of the US government effectively. We need fundamental penal system reform. I don't know what military prisons are like. Are they totally different?

[Variable Wind]

All of you supporters of hard labor for this guy, you're basically being p**sies for taking any shit from the US government military command. What if you happen to be the greatest figter pilot around, and like to party it up occasionally with your admiring audience, which means mostly drinking but the occasional whiff of weed or slight toke in the off-duty moment.

Is there no off-duty time in the military? Or have you given your life over completely to the government.

By the way, I agree with hard labor, but don't agree with having the government purposely raping US civiltan prisoners, I think it's obscene to sentence men to violent, forced anal sex by groups of hostile fellow prisoners, possible ownership to another prisoner in return for personal protection. In the US prison system, between 10-20% of men are routinely raped, often meted out as punishment by the prison staff on behalf of the US government effectively. We need fundamental penal system reform. I don't know what military prisons are like. Are they totally different?

Moral of your sob story: Dont break the law.

[SSG Retired]

All of you supporters of hard labor for this guy, you're basically being p**sies for taking any shit from the US government military command. What if you happen to be the greatest figter pilot around, and like to party it up occasionally with your admiring audience, which means mostly drinking but the occasional whiff of weed or slight toke in the off-duty moment.

Is there no off-duty time in the military? Or have you given your life over completely to the government.

By the way, I agree with hard labor, but don't agree with having the government purposely raping US civiltan prisoners, I think it's obscene to sentence men to violent, forced anal sex by groups of hostile fellow prisoners, possible ownership to another prisoner in return for personal protection. In the US prison system, between 10-20% of men are routinely raped, often meted out as punishment by the prison staff on behalf of the US government effectively. We need fundamental penal system reform. I don't know what military prisons are like. Are they totally different?

You obviuosly do not have much if any experience with the military so let me help you out. The hard labor that is talked about here is not given in a prison. It is a punishment that is administered at the unit of the convicted service member. The court martial decided that hard labor without confinement would be sufficient for the offense.
As for a service member giving their lives to the government, yes we do and that fact is understood by all. Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines serve 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Drugs are not acceptable at anytime within the military and there is zero tolerance for those who partake. In the military, if that fighter pilot "takes a whiff" they are held to the same standards as anyone else.
Now, as for your take on the penal system......don't commit crimes! Plain and simple. In life you eventually get what you deserve, some get it sooner.

[SSG Retired]

All of you supporters of hard labor for this guy, you're basically being p**sies for taking any shit from the US government military command. What if you happen to be the greatest figter pilot around, and like to party it up occasionally with your admiring audience, which means mostly drinking but the occasional whiff of weed or slight toke in the off-duty moment.

Is there no off-duty time in the military? Or have you given your life over completely to the government.

By the way, I agree with hard labor, but don't agree with having the government purposely raping US civiltan prisoners, I think it's obscene to sentence men to violent, forced anal sex by groups of hostile fellow prisoners, possible ownership to another prisoner in return for personal protection. In the US prison system, between 10-20% of men are routinely raped, often meted out as punishment by the prison staff on behalf of the US government effectively. We need fundamental penal system reform. I don't know what military prisons are like. Are they totally different?

You obviuosly do not have much if any experience with the military so let me help you out. The hard labor that is talked about here is not given in a prison. It is a punishment that is administered at the unit of the convicted service member. The court martial decided that hard labor without confinement would be sufficient for the offense.
As for a service member giving their lives to the government, yes we do and that fact is understood by all. Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines serve 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Drugs are not acceptable at anytime within the military and there is zero tolerance for those who partake. In the military, if that fighter pilot "takes a whiff" they are held to the same standards as anyone else.
Now, as for your take on the penal system......don't commit crimes! Plain and simple. In life you eventually get what you deserve, some get it sooner.

[Variable Wind]

You obviuosly do not have much if any experience with the military so let me help you out. The hard labor that is talked about here is not given in a prison. It is a punishment that is administered at the unit of the convicted service member. The court martial decided that hard labor without confinement would be sufficient for the offense.
As for a service member giving their lives to the government, yes we do and that fact is understood by all. Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines serve 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Drugs are not acceptable at anytime within the military and there is zero tolerance for those who partake. In the military, if that fighter pilot "takes a whiff" they are held to the same standards as anyone else.
Now, as for your take on the penal system......don't commit crimes! Plain and simple. In life you eventually get what you deserve, some get it sooner.

Yeah, fix your last post, I didnt say that.

[Your_Name_Here]

All of you supporters of hard labor for this guy, you're basically being p**sies for taking any shit from the US government military command. What if you happen to be the greatest figter pilot around, and like to party it up occasionally with your admiring audience, which means mostly drinking but the occasional whiff of weed or slight toke in the off-duty moment.

Is there no off-duty time in the military? Or have you given your life over completely to the government.

By the way, I agree with hard labor, but don't agree with having the government purposely raping US civiltan prisoners, I think it's obscene to sentence men to violent, forced anal sex by groups of hostile fellow prisoners, possible ownership to another prisoner in return for personal protection. In the US prison system, between 10-20% of men are routinely raped, often meted out as punishment by the prison staff on behalf of the US government effectively. We need fundamental penal system reform. I don't know what military prisons are like. Are they totally different?

Seka,

Are you 15 yo or something? Your post speaks to me with all the naivete of one. Haven't you seen the commercials? The US military is a way of life, and calls for much higher commitment than McD's calls for. as for taking shit--we both swore an oath, and are paid, to obey the lawful orders of the Commander-In-Chief and (as applicable) the officers appointed over us. In a word: YES, your ass belongs to the USG!
And anyway, WTF ever gave you the impression that you need that shit to have a good time? You can't believe everything you see on MTV or whatever the hell you're watching.

You sure the hell better not be suggesting it's OK for the Gov't to purposely rape military prisoners!!! At any rate, the Gov't sentences offenders to prison, but NOT "violent, forced anal sex by groups of hostile fellow prisoners, possible ownership to another prisoner in return for personal protection." That's as ridiculous an assertion as your other one about all that "meted out as punishment by the prison staff on behalf of the US government effectively." WTF did you get THAT from?

You, son, have some serious growing up to do.

[SSG Retired]

Sorry, Variable Wind. I did try to fix it that's why there are 2 posts that look the same.

[seyca]

You guys are right, I don't have any experience with the military, I came across this forum while doing research about US civilian prisons. Then I saw various comments here that apply to civilian prisons. The hard labor that you guys are describing doesn't seem harsh to me at all, compared to the abuse that happens in normal prisons. Like I said, I'm not against hard labor at all, hopefully the punishment is predictable, known, and therefore fair. I was curious about military prisons, and as far as I can tell they are incomparably better to civilian prisons.

I don't think that "don't commit crimes" is a solution to the brutality in the civilian penal system, however. Punishment should be appropriate to the level of the crime, and institutionalized assault and rape on a daily basis only hardens prisoners and creates more problems once these people are released. Do you think that people should be raped in prisons for crimes involving soft drugs or minor burglary (in California burglary over $500 is a felony)? I would personally much rather spend time in a Chinese prison than a US prison, which is a scandalous thought in itself, since the US has chosen to hold itself to a higher standard of human rights. Does anyone here believe that rehabilitation, outside of indirectly through punishment and deterrence, should be a central part of the US prison system?

[weazlefuzion]

You guys are right, I don't have any experience with the military, I came across this forum while doing research about US civilian prisons. Then I saw various comments here that apply to civilian prisons. The hard labor that you guys are describing doesn't seem harsh to me at all, compared to the abuse that happens in normal prisons. Like I said, I'm not against hard labor at all, hopefully the punishment is predictable, known, and therefore fair. I was curious about military prisons, and as far as I can tell they are incomparably better to civilian prisons.

I don't think that "don't commit crimes" is a solution to the brutality in the civilian penal system, however. Punishment should be appropriate to the level of the crime, and institutionalized assault and rape on a daily basis only hardens prisoners and creates more problems once these people are released. Do you think that people should be raped in prisons for crimes involving soft drugs or minor burglary (in California burglary over $500 is a felony)? I would personally much rather spend time in a Chinese prison than a US prison, which is a scandalous thought in itself, since the US has chosen to hold itself to a higher standard of human rights. Does anyone here believe that rehabilitation, outside of indirectly through punishment and deterrence, should be a central part of the US prison system?

Regardless of whether or not anyone here agrees with your assertions on civilian prisons, this is a military forum with military members and this post is dealing with the non-judicial punishment of military law. This is not the appropriate place to discuss this unrelated topic seeing as how the hard labor discussed here is used in lieu of prison time in the military justice system. Good luck with your studies.