Why there has been a breakdown in disipline in the military

[RADENNIS0]

I read a lot about how the younger generation of military personnel isn't as disciplined and shows less respect to those of senior rank.

I think there are basically two reasons for this:

1. Elimination of physical counseling.

2. America's general elimination of a class-based society.

On point one: There used to be a time where people were put in their place by taking a walk out back or in the forward locker. I know that it went too far too many times. But, it did keep people in line.

On point two: In the ages prior to WWII officers were generally of noble blood. The common soldiers and sailors were generally peasants (for lack of a better word).

Everyone knew their station in life. There were written and unwritten social rules about how to speak, eat and so on. Peasants rarely became officers. The civilian social structure was echoed in the military.

Then WWII came. Millions of Americans from all walks of life (as in all social classes) were thrust into positions that they otherwise wouldn't have had the opportunity to take.

The post WWII era saw a huge change in the social classes of America. As the years go on there becomes very little to separate the rich from the poor. The rich aren't beyond the law anymore. The poor can afford big screen TVs.

So, a poor kid joins the military and sees higher ranking people and thinks "They're no better than I am" and acts like it.

And due to point number one above, not much can be done about it except paperwork and extra duty.

Do you agree?

[Measure Man]

I read a lot about how the younger generation of military personnel isn't as disciplined and shows less respect to those of senior rank.

I think there are basically two reasons for this:

1. Elimination of physical counseling.

2. America's general elimination of a class-based society.

On point one: There used to be a time where people were put in their place by taking a walk out back or in the forward locker. I know that it went too far too many times. But, it did keep people in line.

On point two: In the ages prior to WWII officers were generally of noble blood. The common soldiers and sailors were generally peasants (for lack of a better word).

Everyone knew their station in life. There were written and unwritten social rules about how to speak, eat and so on. Peasants rarely became officers. The civilian social structure was echoed in the military.

Then WWII came. Millions of Americans from all walks of life (as in all social classes) were thrust into positions that they otherwise wouldn't have had the opportunity to take.

The post WWII era saw a huge change in the social classes of America. As the years go on there becomes very little to separate the rich from the poor. The rich aren't beyond the law anymore. The poor can afford big screen TVs.

So, a poor kid joins the military and sees higher ranking people and thinks "They're no better than I am" and acts like it.

And due to point number one above, not much can be done about it except paperwork and extra duty.

Do you agree?

Boy, the good old days when rich white males could beat on the rest of us...

Are you serious?

[Variable Wind]

Boy, the good old days when rich white males could beat on the rest of us...

Are you serious?

I was readying my usual "wussification of America" post but then I read the whole post and was thinking exactly the same. Noble blood? Pheasants? going to a cross burning later on today?

[CVal]

Planning on turning the US into a monarchy, too?

[Your_Name_Here]

I was readying my usual "wussification of America" post but then I read the whole post and was thinking exactly the same. Noble blood? Pheasants? going to a cross burning later on today?

Hey VW,

What's wrong with Pheasants? I think they're GREAT eating!!! :tongue: :D

[Your_Name_Here]

I read a lot about how the younger generation of military personnel isn't as disciplined and shows less respect to those of senior rank.

I think there are basically two reasons for this:

1. Elimination of physical counseling.

2. America's general elimination of a class-based society.

On point one: There used to be a time where people were put in their place by taking a walk out back or in the forward locker. I know that it went too far too many times. But, it did keep people in line.

On point two: In the ages prior to WWII officers were generally of noble blood. The common soldiers and sailors were generally peasants (for lack of a better word).

Everyone knew their station in life. There were written and unwritten social rules about how to speak, eat and so on. Peasants rarely became officers. The civilian social structure was echoed in the military.

Then WWII came. Millions of Americans from all walks of life (as in all social classes) were thrust into positions that they otherwise wouldn't have had the opportunity to take.

The post WWII era saw a huge change in the social classes of America. As the years go on there becomes very little to separate the rich from the poor. The rich aren't beyond the law anymore. The poor can afford big screen TVs.

So, a poor kid joins the military and sees higher ranking people and thinks "They're no better than I am" and acts like it.

And due to point number one above, not much can be done about it except paperwork and extra duty.

Do you agree?

I am sure you might have been trying to make a legitimate point, but there is just one problem: your unfortunate word choice.

Run--don't walk--to your local bookstore and buy yourself a Thesaurus! It would potentially save you from future skewerings, though not the ones you will be getting for this.

And now, MY turn: YGBFSM if you really think "Nobles" existed in the US in the early 20th Century. And you didn't say a word to back up your laughable notion that poor people automatically see senior personnel as better than themselves.

But since you are calling on a return to the "good old days" how about you do YOUR part by inviting your immediate supervisor to take you out back for "wall-to-wall" counseling; that would show us you are willing to put your money where your mouth is! You signing over all your assets to me would also be a good first step to bringing a return to the "class" system. I am 3 classes from my BS, so I figure I am close enough to
"nobility" for our purposes.

You want to know where the lack of discipline comes from? Here's a better answer: 1)No Home Training, 2)Ineffectual parenting from those who'd rather be friends than parents, 3)constant Media bombardment from a dizzying array of figures who are so full of themselves, and expect the public's adulation for it.

But it's not all gloom and doom: the younger generations are beneficiaries of the greatest advances in science, technology and education, and other fields, putting them on a completely different footing from that Enlisted ca. WWII who may or may not have finished HS, or the Officer who may or may not have even been to college. It is this footing that we as supervisors and leadership would be well-served addressing.

This is the view from where I sit: YMMV.

[Variable Wind]

Hey VW,

What's wrong with Pheasants? I think they're GREAT eating!!! :tongue: :D

...only a NEOCON would eat Animals. Facist!!!

[imnohero]

Ha, the "younger generation" is exactly like my generation. My peer group when I was an E1-E3 had no respect for SNCOs or Officers. Now that I'm a SNCO, I can hardly expect the nature of youth to change.

Discipline is taught, respect is earned.

[Your_Name_Here]

...only a NEOCON would eat Animals. Facist!!!

Hush up and grab a plate--you KNOW you want some. LOL:tongue: :D

[RADENNIS0]

I think it is fair to say from the responses that I have come across as wholeheartedly endorsing both of my points.

Please let me elaborate some.

As I stated earlier, there are merits to point number one. But it got out of hand. It was taken too far. Simply not being liked by a superior was enough to get a beating.

I'm not for that, mind you. The point is that you can't put anyone in their place now. You have to counsel in paper, in triplicate, with witnesses. Ouch!

On point number two, the point was that as social classes have been eliminated in American society, the military has tried to maintain social classes with mixed results.

RHIP. Rank Has Its Privileges. But not in a society that thinks everything should be "fair" or "equal". It almost sounds Socialist.

Take people from a society that thinks everyone should be treated equal and put them in an environment where there are ranks and separations there will be resistance.

How many times in the last ten or fifteen years have you heard a junior enlisted person act in a rude or disrespectful manner to a superior? And how far did the corrections or discipline go? Not far compared to thirty or forty years ago. Which, again coincides with point number one.

If you take offense to my use of the words "nobles" and "peasants" you exemplify what I am talking about. It is simple truth that commissions where paid for in many cases, the same as being rich could buy you out of military service, too. Officers came from wealthy (or at least well off) families.

In today's military a warrant or commission can be earned by anyone from any socioeconomic and/or racial background. I'm not against this in any way. The point is that the status of officers has changed when enlisted see their own people in positions of authority. It goes back to the "He's no better than me" mentality. I don't agree with that thought process because I think that a warrant or commission is earned. But I think that this is the sentiment held by many other people.

Maybe the words "poor" or "commoner" could be substituted for "peasant". But it wasn't a literal use of the word. The fact remains that poor people showed more outward respect to rich people prior to WWII. And at the same time, enlisted personnel showed even more respect to officers.

As society has changed so has the military.

I am not suggesting that we return to such a strict social class system as in the past. I am pointing out the reason for why we find our military where it is today.

[Variable Wind]

I think it is fair to say from the responses that I have come across as wholeheartedly endorsing both of my points.

Please let me elaborate some.

As I stated earlier, there are merits to point number one. But it got out of hand. It was taken too far. Simply not being liked by a superior was enough to get a beating.

I'm not for that, mind you. The point is that you can't put anyone in their place now. You have to counsel in paper, in triplicate, with witnesses. Ouch!

On point number two, the point was that as social classes have been eliminated in American society, the military has tried to maintain social classes with mixed results.

RHIP. Rank Has Its Privileges. But not in a society that thinks everything should be "fair" or "equal". It almost sounds Socialist.

Take people from a society that thinks everyone should be treated equal and put them in an environment where there are ranks and separations there will be resistance.

How many times in the last ten or fifteen years have you heard a junior enlisted person act in a rude or disrespectful manner to a superior? And how far did the corrections or discipline go? Not far compared to thirty or forty years ago. Which, again coincides with point number one.

If you take offense to my use of the words "nobles" and "peasants" you exemplify what I am talking about. It is simple truth that commissions where paid for in many cases, the same as being rich could buy you out of military service, too. Officers came from wealthy (or at least well off) families.

In today's military a warrant or commission can be earned by anyone from any socioeconomic and/or racial background. I'm not against this in any way. The point is that the status of officers has changed when enlisted see their own people in positions of authority. It goes back to the "He's no better than me" mentality. I don't agree with that thought process because I think that a warrant or commission is earned. But I think that this is the sentiment held by many other people.

Maybe the words "poor" or "commoner" could be substituted for "peasant". But it wasn't a literal use of the word. The fact remains that poor people showed more outward respect to rich people prior to WWII. And at the same time, enlisted personnel showed even more respect to officers.

As society has changed so has the military.

I am not suggesting that we return to such a strict social class system as in the past. I am pointing out the reason for why we find our military where it is today.

I have said this before. Discipline starts at the top. If the leadership is not respectful or demanding of discipline then the rest of the hierarchy fails. That is why we have NCOs to counterbalance the young punk officers who come in outranking them but not having a clue as how to lead in the real world. Remember that all men are CREATED equal which is at the very core of our nation. One does not simply trancend that simply from graduating from a military academy.

As to your poor mans respect to the rich you have to go back a little farther than prior to WWII you have to go to the middle of the Great Depression where Roosevelt started class warfare in our society. What you are complaining of is not a consequence of our military structure but of our social struction in civilian society bleeding over. The greatest generation worked damn hard to provide their kids with a better future in turn spoiling them but not enough to where they would not work hard for their children and now my generation is at the beginning of a society that feels entitled to everything.

[Variable Wind]

Hush up and grab a plate--you KNOW you want some. LOL:tongue: :D

Youre right.

[Measure Man]

I think it is fair to say from the responses that I have come across as wholeheartedly endorsing both of my points.

Please let me elaborate some.

As I stated earlier, there are merits to point number one. But it got out of hand. It was taken too far. Simply not being liked by a superior was enough to get a beating.

I'm not for that, mind you. The point is that you can't put anyone in their place now. You have to counsel in paper, in triplicate, with witnesses. Ouch!

On point number two, the point was that as social classes have been eliminated in American society, the military has tried to maintain social classes with mixed results.

RHIP. Rank Has Its Privileges. But not in a society that thinks everything should be "fair" or "equal". It almost sounds Socialist.

Take people from a society that thinks everyone should be treated equal and put them in an environment where there are ranks and separations there will be resistance.

How many times in the last ten or fifteen years have you heard a junior enlisted person act in a rude or disrespectful manner to a superior? And how far did the corrections or discipline go? Not far compared to thirty or forty years ago. Which, again coincides with point number one.

If you take offense to my use of the words "nobles" and "peasants" you exemplify what I am talking about. It is simple truth that commissions where paid for in many cases, the same as being rich could buy you out of military service, too. Officers came from wealthy (or at least well off) families.

In today's military a warrant or commission can be earned by anyone from any socioeconomic and/or racial background. I'm not against this in any way. The point is that the status of officers has changed when enlisted see their own people in positions of authority. It goes back to the "He's no better than me" mentality. I don't agree with that thought process because I think that a warrant or commission is earned. But I think that this is the sentiment held by many other people.

Maybe the words "poor" or "commoner" could be substituted for "peasant". But it wasn't a literal use of the word. The fact remains that poor people showed more outward respect to rich people prior to WWII. And at the same time, enlisted personnel showed even more respect to officers.

As society has changed so has the military.

I am not suggesting that we return to such a strict social class system as in the past. I am pointing out the reason for why we find our military where it is today.

Ah...okay, now I got you.

Well, first, I completely disagree with your starting premise that military discipline has broken down. Today's military is probably the most disciplined in US History.

That "impression" generally comes from older veterans who remember walking up hill in 10 miles of snow, both ways, to basic training...

While I'm sure some new "offenses" have been invented...I think you'd be hard pressed to look through hisotry and find a war-time military more disciplined than today's...

[Measure Man]

I have said this before. Discipline starts at the top. If the leadership is not respectful or demanding of discipline then the rest of the hierarchy fails. That is why we have NCOs to counterbalance the young punk officers who come in outranking them but not having a clue as how to lead in the real world. Remember that all men are CREATED equal which is at the very core of our nation. One does not simply trancend that simply from graduating from a military academy.

As to your poor mans respect to the rich you have to go back a little farther than prior to WWII you have to go to the middle of the Great Depression where Roosevelt started class warfare in our society.
What you are complaining of is not a consequence of our military structure but of our social struction in civilian society bleeding over. The greatest generation worked damn hard to provide their kids with a better future in turn spoiling them but not enough to where they would not work hard for their children and now my generation is at the beginning of a society that feels entitled to everything.

You do know that your parents generation thought the same of you, right?

Oh..and your grandparents thought the same about your parents, too!

Remember how when you were a teenager you thought your parents didn't know anything and didn't understand? Well, that's what your kids think!

[Shrike]

Ah...okay, now I got you.

Well, first, I completely disagree with your starting premise that military discipline has broken down. Today's military is probably the most disciplined in US History.

And, IMNSHO, the best educated in history, too. The average high school graduate's education today is probably comparable to that of a WWI officer, if not far more so.

[Variable Wind]

You do know that your parents generation thought the same of you, right?

Oh..and your grandparents thought the same about your parents, too!

Remember how when you were a teenager you thought your parents didn't know anything and didn't understand? Well, that's what your kids think!

Well doesnt it work in waves? Havent we seen a societal breakdown in discipline? Maybe we arent and its just our mass media playing it up. Only time will tell. It always does.

[Measure Man]

Well doesnt it work in waves? Havent we seen a societal breakdown in discipline? Maybe we arent and its just our mass media playing it up. Only time will tell. It always does.

No, I don't think we've seen a societal breakdown in discipline.

Can't remember who said it...but a favorite quote of mine is "The world is not getting any worse, the news coverage of it is just getting better."

[Variable Wind]

No, I don't think we've seen a societal breakdown in discipline.

Can't remember who said it...but a favorite quote of mine is "The world is not getting any worse, the news coverage of it is just getting better."

Ill ponder that one today.

[CVal]

No, I don't think we've seen a societal breakdown in discipline.

Can't remember who said it...but a favorite quote of mine is "The world is not getting any worse, the news coverage of it is just getting better."

I believe you're absolutely right in saying the news is not getting worse; the news coverage is getting better. I've long thought this about many things. In every generation, we have seen, see, and will see all manner of human actions, from despicable to heroic. What torques me off are blanket statements, such as "...how the younger generation of military personnel isn't as disciplined and shows less respect to those of senior rank." If a person were to make blanket statements about certain races or ethnicities, s/he would be discredited. Unfortunately, people still make blanket statements about entire groups of people: the young, for one.

I work in a high school, and I see the range of young people's behavior ~ trust me, it's the same as the range of behavior in any age group, at any time in their lives.

[ty5486]

I disagree that the youth of today aren't behaving badly. Since when has it been acceptable to wear your pants bellow your butt? Since when has it been acceptable to wear a hat when you're eating? Since when has it been acceptable to say 'yeah' to a person forty years your senior? Since when did young people go to job interviews wearing shorts and flip-flops? Since when was it okay to call your boss 'dude?' I could go on, but I won't.

[xeverex21]

Was it harder to be a high ranking officer back then? I know E1-E5 all get treated the same way. Meaning E5 get as much respect as an E1 by higher ranking members. Unless your talking about Khaki's not getting the respect they deserve, there may be different reasons. Ensigns coming out of college at 23 or 24 years old, they try to fit it. They can either go out with the 30-50year old guys or be with the younger guys who are usually the enlisted ones. Plus when your on a ship for so long, formality takes its toll.

[Measure Man]

I disagree that the youth of today aren't behaving badly. Since when has it been acceptable to wear your pants bellow your butt?

Did you know that your grandparents were not allowed to wear that "hoodlum attire" of blue jeans to school?

Or that your Mom was probably not allowed to wear a skirt that showed her kneecaps...because she would have been thought of as a loose woman?

Okay...so they wore their pants up to their waist...the principle is the same. It's just fashion.

Since when has it been acceptable to wear a hat when you're eating?

You must be from Texas or the south...this was never an issue where I grew up.

Since when has it been acceptable to say 'yeah' to a person forty years your senior?

Do you think the Vietnam Army was all about "yes, sir" "no, sir"? How about in Korea? WWII? WWI? Exactly when do you think all these disciplined old school soldiers served?

Since when did young people go to job interviews wearing shorts and flip-flops? Since when was it okay to call your boss 'dude?' I could go on, but I won't.

Well...for most job interviews it is still not acceptable to go in shorts and flip-flops...in most scenarios you don't call your boss 'dude'...but there has ALWAYS been some scenarios where that type of behavior was acceptable...and most where it is not...just as today.

My point is...the youth have ALWAYS behaved badly in the eyes of the...non-youth. Today is no different...and no worse

[Shrike]

Right - there quite simply is NO such thing as "The Good Ol' Days."

[Variable Wind]

Did you know that your grandparents were not allowed to wear that "hoodlum attire" of blue jeans to school?

Or that your Mom was probably not allowed to wear a skirt that showed her kneecaps...because she would have been thought of as a loose woman?

Okay...so they wore their pants up to their waist...the principle is the same. It's just fashion.



You must be from Texas or the south...this was never an issue where I grew up.



Do you think the Vietnam Army was all about "yes, sir" "no, sir"? How about in Korea? WWII? WWI? Exactly when do you think all these disciplined old school soldiers served?



Well...for most job interviews it is still not acceptable to go in shorts and flip-flops...in most scenarios you don't call your boss 'dude'...but there has ALWAYS been some scenarios where that type of behavior was acceptable...and most where it is not...just as today.

My point is...the youth have ALWAYS behaved badly in the eyes of the...non-youth. Today is no different...and no worse

Well true, but I think that more and more is being let go. What was once deemed obsene (Elvis Presely) is now G-rated. More recently, when my dad took me to see Top Gun in the theatres (I was 3) the movie was rated R, now its PG (see http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=topgun.htm.) I think the desensitizing of youth is what is causing this breakdown in discipline. I think that they are more sheltered and spoiled. I think thats just part of becoming more and more technilogically advanced in a way but when you keep regressing in values then eventually you have none. Right?

[Measure Man]

Well true, but I think that more and more is being let go. What was once deemed obsene (Elvis Presely) is now G-rated. More recently, when my dad took me to see Top Gun in the theatres (I was 3) the movie was rated R, now its PG (see http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=topgun.htm.) I think the desensitizing of youth is what is causing this breakdown in discipline. I think that they are more sheltered and spoiled. I think thats just part of becoming more and more technilogically advanced in a way but when you keep regressing in values then eventually you have none. Right?

Well...first, I still do NOT agree that we are experiencing a breakdown in discipline. I think we are an all-time high in discipline.

Second...if values "regress"...you don't end up with No values...you end up with Different values.

Personally, I think America's conservative social values of the past caused more problems than they prevented...sexual hang-ups...domestic abuse...institutional discrimination...various neuroses that develop when conflicted between natural healthy responses and "socially acceptable" responses...isolation...just to name a few. (just look at some of the posters on this site...lol)

So...do I lament the fact that the average high schooler today is not "shocked" by Elvis's pelvis...or a bra strap in Top Gun? Oh NO...quite the contrary...I think we still have a long way to go...to view sexuality in it's various forms as a normal healthy part of human existence...

I do not think the military of the 80s...70s....60s....50s...or whenever...could do what we are doing today, with the demographic of people we have today...no way, no how...and it's not just the technology.

I guess if I had to choose between today's soldier...whose personal style may be different from mine...but who is higher educated...more creative...more aware...than his predecessor...and as a result may not stand at attention and say "Goll-ly Sargeant Carter"...I'll take today's solder any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

[Variable Wind]

Well...first, I still do NOT agree that we are experiencing a breakdown in discipline. I think we are an all-time high in discipline.

Second...if values "regress"...you don't end up with No values...you end up with Different values.

Personally, I think America's conservative social values of the past caused more problems than they prevented...sexual hang-ups...domestic abuse...institutional discrimination...various neuroses that develop when conflicted between natural healthy responses and "socially acceptable" responses...isolation...just to name a few. (just look at some of the posters on this site...lol)

So...do I lament the fact that the average high schooler today is not "shocked" by Elvis's pelvis...or a bra strap in Top Gun? Oh NO...quite the contrary...I think we still have a long way to go...to view sexuality in it's various forms as a normal healthy part of human existence...

I do not think the military of the 80s...70s....60s....50s...or whenever...could do what we are doing today, with the demographic of people we have today...no way, no how...and it's not just the technology.

I guess if I had to choose between today's soldier...whose personal style may be different from mine...but who is higher educated...more creative...more aware...than his predecessor...and as a result may not stand at attention and say "Goll-ly Sargeant Carter"...I'll take today's solder any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Different values doesnt necessarily mean better or even equal values as before (a perfect example being the platform of "Change" a certain politician is running on). We are a country that now thinks that corporal punishment even in the home is grounds for child abuse, where political correctness is silencing our opinions. Nothing is held sacred unless it represents an opinion other than conventional wisdom would support. We are teaching our kids more books smarts than ever before, but at the cost of common sense. Would I rather have a soldier who understands calculus in a foxhole with me or someone who is more aware of their surroundings and who can make a good decision on the fly. The "backwards" redneck kids and the "uneducated" immigrants and inner city kids can usually end up more effective as combat soldiers given our current training. The downside to that, politicians use it as an excuse to accuse our government and military of doing what has ALWAYS been done in the history of civilization: Sending the poor off to die in wars. I would rather be given a platoon of the old 29th ID of the 1940's than a platoon of guys from todays 101st.

[Measure Man]

Different values doesnt necessarily mean better or even equal values as before (a perfect example being the platform of "Change" a certain politician is running on).

Right...different values...no better, no worse necessarily. However, because somone's values differ from your's, you necessarily will see that as worse...I think. As do I, I'm sure.

We are a country that now thinks that corporal punishment even in the home is grounds for child abuse, where political correctness is silencing our opinions.

A scan of news channels...forums...newspapers...tells me there is no shortage of opinions today. Don't blame political correctness if your "values" don't withstand the test of public scrutiny.

Nothing is held sacred unless it represents an opinion other than conventional wisdom would support.

...what should be sacred? Conventional wisdom? We learn nothing if we don't challenge conventional wisdom.

We are teaching our kids more books smarts than ever before, but at the cost of common sense.

I don't agree with that.

Would I rather have a soldier who understands calculus in a foxhole with me or someone who is more aware of their surroundings and who can make a good decision on the fly.

Learning calculus does not eliminate awareness of surroundings...they are NOT mutually exclusive.

BUT...who would you rather have aligning the IFF system on your helicopter?

The "backwards" redneck kids and the "uneducated" immigrants and inner city kids can usually end up more effective as combat soldiers given our current training.

More effective than a suburban kid who knows calculus? Again, I don't see how learning higher math gives you any less common sense...

The downside to that, politicians use it as an excuse to accuse our government and military of doing what has ALWAYS been done in the history of civilization: Sending the poor off to die in wars.

We always have...and we continue to do that!

I would rather be given a platoon of the old 29th ID of the 1940's than a platoon of guys from todays 101st.

eehh...I'm not so sure...would be an interesting computer simulation. I guess it's sort of like comparing Bobby Jones to Tiger Woods...no question that if they were lined up together, Tiger has superior skills....but relative to their time...eh...

[Variable Wind]

Right...different values...no better, no worse necessarily. However, because somone's values differ from your's, you necessarily will see that as worse...I think. As do I, I'm sure.
True, but what I outlined below shows what you could see as the decline of the American values that made us great in the past.


A scan of news channels...forums...newspapers...tells me there is no shortage of opinions today. Don't blame political correctness if your "values" don't withstand the test of public scrutiny.
Appearance is 90% of the law. A media with an adjenda can either glorify or destroy whatever if believes in. Sensationalism sells, but they decide what gets that treatment and how. As for the distribution of opinions, that is merely an effect of the growth of the distribution of information and the effect of the internet.

...what should be sacred? Conventional wisdom? We learn nothing if we don't challenge conventional wisdom.
Doesnt mean we learn something either...not in all cases. We have already defined gravity, is there a need to reinvent it? Too many people are trying to reinvent science to fit their opinions instead of expanding on what we already know.

I don't agree with that.
Aint America grand? The gestapo will be at your house at 2pm to beat you. ;)


Learning calculus does not eliminate awareness of surroundings...they are NOT mutually exclusive.

BUT...who would you rather have aligning the IFF system on your helicopter?
OUCH! Good point, about the IFF system, I was referring to the sense of the footsoldier and forgot to put that little notation on there. The difference being that a contractor aligns, designs my IFF systems and in most cases repairs the complicated portions of it as well.
As far as the calculus, do you notice the gap between most people with book smarts and their common sense. Coming from college only a few years ago I can say that there is definitely a coefficient there with most people. Of course that could just be the environment. Its what I believe though. You and I are both educated and I believe have some ability to think rationally. However I do not think we are anywhere near being a majority in this country. There are probably more eskimos in this country than people like us.


More effective than a suburban kid who knows calculus? Again, I don't see how learning higher math gives you any less common sense...
Maybe its the sheltered lifestyle that destroys it. If you dont use it you lose it?


We always have...and we continue to do that!
Augh, youre right.


eehh...I'm not so sure...would be an interesting computer simulation. I guess it's sort of like comparing Bobby Jones to Tiger Woods...no question that if they were lined up together, Tiger has superior skills....but relative to their time...eh...
Given the same equipment, and equal exposure to said equipment. What do you think? and should you use just two players? Should you take a percentage of the field from each era? Of course I guess I was guilty of the same in my post.

[taxi.smith]

I think that your argument is inherently flawed. You are attempting to compare cows and crayons when you mention Service members of yesterday compared to Service members of today. Those are two different Americas separated by time, events and Americans that have shaped us in to who we are today. Face it the youth of today is a product of yesterdays adults. They wore jacket when they went out; we wear t-shirts.

Young people today did not just fall off the turnip truck the way that they did in the past. Many of them are Tech savvy, interested in the world around them and just plain old smart. But you got to talk to them to understand their gearing. Many people have joined for various reasons and once in the service they “see how it works”… and sadly to say it is mildly flawed and they see that.

These are some of the things that they are saying:
- Why are you supposed to respect an Officer even if they don’t have as much experience me?
- It is hard to respect those you don't trust or those you have seen act without ethics. Have you ever been on port call and seen Officers behavior? You could make a movie and sell it on the Internet and call it “Officers Gone Wild”.
- After seven years of service why do I have to park and walk one mile to the pier when that Officer has only been in for one year and can park next to the ship?
- I have never seen an Officer do anything, really.

I think that you should ask yourself the harder question, why is it that really good and really talented youth leave the Service? I will tell you from my perspective; it is because we are a Pride Based organization, not a Profit Based one. Youth need NOW because “now” is what is driving us forward and they want to be a part of that. Conversely, Senior Service members value Tradition much more than Innovation. So why would or should young Service Members looking for innovation be in awe of Officers that do not even know how to use their computers? Juniors show seniors how to use the technology and then what do they get in return? Nothing… it just doesn’t add up to them so they turn off and get out.

Your right paper counseling’s are not a good tool to shape the habits of others firing people works though like a real job. You would see a lot of change then.
But neither is hiding things. Meaning that if an Enlisted person gets in trouble then they are chastised in public, but on the other hand if an Officer gets in trouble its private. We are living and working with two double standards and that is not what makes us Americans. So they turn off again.

Personally I have very little respect or even trust for that matter for people that I am not allowed to “Break Bread With”. You eat in your quarters I eat in mine and when we walk by each other we can give each other fake smiles and pleasantries. It doesn’t add up anymore not even to me.

As far as your word choice goes, it was fine, it was honest, and it showed just how indignant you must feel that you have to share your thoughts with all the commoners. You may want to wash your hands after you read this so you don’t feel so dirty.

Please remember, Service members in WWII never grew up in neighborhoods that had Crystal-Meth in them. Our kids are growing up in urban war zones. Just for your information, those same kids that you are in critique of, they are fighting and dieing for your freedom right now and that takes discipline. I would be happy to fight and ride and die with any of them. You just keep watching us text message each other and play video games from your ivory tower. If you want to fix it you are going to have to get dirty or at least learn how to play video games.

[IYAOYAS1997]

Boy, the good old days when rich white males could beat on the rest of us...

Are you serious?

LMAO.....I'm confused too....Noble blood? I dont think this person realizes it is almost 2009 and you cant say stupid crap like that or do stuff like that either.....

[IYAOYAS1997]

I think that your argument is inherently flawed. You are attempting to compare cows and crayons when you mention Service members of yesterday compared to Service members of today. Those are two different Americas separated by time, events and Americans that have shaped us in to who we are today. Face it the youth of today is a product of yesterdays adults. They wore jacket when they went out; we wear t-shirts.

Young people today did not just fall off the turnip truck the way that they did in the past. Many of them are Tech savvy, interested in the world around them and just plain old smart. But you got to talk to them to understand their gearing. Many people have joined for various reasons and once in the service they “see how it works”… and sadly to say it is mildly flawed and they see that.

These are some of the things that they are saying:
- Why are you supposed to respect an Officer even if they don’t have as much experience me?
- It is hard to respect those you don't trust or those you have seen act without ethics. Have you ever been on port call and seen Officers behavior? You could make a movie and sell it on the Internet and call it “Officers Gone Wild”.
- After seven years of service why do I have to park and walk one mile to the pier when that Officer has only been in for one year and can park next to the ship?
- I have never seen an Officer do anything, really.

I think that you should ask yourself the harder question, why is it that really good and really talented youth leave the Service? I will tell you from my perspective; it is because we are a Pride Based organization, not a Profit Based one. Youth need NOW because “now” is what is driving us forward and they want to be a part of that. Conversely, Senior Service members value Tradition much more than Innovation. So why would or should young Service Members looking for innovation be in awe of Officers that do not even know how to use their computers? Juniors show seniors how to use the technology and then what do they get in return? Nothing… it just doesn’t add up to them so they turn off and get out.

Your right paper counseling’s are not a good tool to shape the habits of others firing people works though like a real job. You would see a lot of change then.
But neither is hiding things. Meaning that if an Enlisted person gets in trouble then they are chastised in public, but on the other hand if an Officer gets in trouble its private. We are living and working with two double standards and that is not what makes us Americans. So they turn off again.

Personally I have very little respect or even trust for that matter for people that I am not allowed to “Break Bread With”. You eat in your quarters I eat in mine and when we walk by each other we can give each other fake smiles and pleasantries. It doesn’t add up anymore not even to me.

As far as your word choice goes, it was fine, it was honest, and it showed just how indignant you must feel that you have to share your thoughts with all the commoners. You may want to wash your hands after you read this so you don’t feel so dirty.

Please remember, Service members in WWII never grew up in neighborhoods that had Crystal-Meth in them. Our kids are growing up in urban war zones. Just for your information, those same kids that you are in critique of, they are fighting and dieing for your freedom right now and that takes discipline. I would be happy to fight and ride and die with any of them. You just keep watching us text message each other and play video games from your ivory tower. If you want to fix it you are going to have to get dirty or at least learn how to play video games.

WOW.... that was perfect, you really hit the head of the nail with your post....

[jeffersj]

I think that your argument is inherently flawed. You are attempting to compare cows and crayons when you mention Service members of yesterday compared to Service members of today. Those are two different Americas separated by time, events and Americans that have shaped us in to who we are today. Face it the youth of today is a product of yesterdays adults. They wore jacket when they went out; we wear t-shirts.

Young people today did not just fall off the turnip truck the way that they did in the past. Many of them are Tech savvy, interested in the world around them and just plain old smart. But you got to talk to them to understand their gearing. Many people have joined for various reasons and once in the service they “see how it works”… and sadly to say it is mildly flawed and they see that.

These are some of the things that they are saying:
- Why are you supposed to respect an Officer even if they don’t have as much experience me?
- It is hard to respect those you don't trust or those you have seen act without ethics. Have you ever been on port call and seen Officers behavior? You could make a movie and sell it on the Internet and call it “Officers Gone Wild”.
- After seven years of service why do I have to park and walk one mile to the pier when that Officer has only been in for one year and can park next to the ship?
- I have never seen an Officer do anything, really.

I think that you should ask yourself the harder question, why is it that really good and really talented youth leave the Service? I will tell you from my perspective; it is because we are a Pride Based organization, not a Profit Based one. Youth need NOW because “now” is what is driving us forward and they want to be a part of that. Conversely, Senior Service members value Tradition much more than Innovation. So why would or should young Service Members looking for innovation be in awe of Officers that do not even know how to use their computers? Juniors show seniors how to use the technology and then what do they get in return? Nothing… it just doesn’t add up to them so they turn off and get out.

Your right paper counseling’s are not a good tool to shape the habits of others firing people works though like a real job. You would see a lot of change then.
But neither is hiding things. Meaning that if an Enlisted person gets in trouble then they are chastised in public, but on the other hand if an Officer gets in trouble its private. We are living and working with two double standards and that is not what makes us Americans. So they turn off again.

Personally I have very little respect or even trust for that matter for people that I am not allowed to “Break Bread With”. You eat in your quarters I eat in mine and when we walk by each other we can give each other fake smiles and pleasantries. It doesn’t add up anymore not even to me.

As far as your word choice goes, it was fine, it was honest, and it showed just how indignant you must feel that you have to share your thoughts with all the commoners. You may want to wash your hands after you read this so you don’t feel so dirty.

Please remember, Service members in WWII never grew up in neighborhoods that had Crystal-Meth in them. Our kids are growing up in urban war zones. Just for your information, those same kids that you are in critique of, they are fighting and dieing for your freedom right now and that takes discipline. I would be happy to fight and ride and die with any of them. You just keep watching us text message each other and play video games from your ivory tower. If you want to fix it you are going to have to get dirty or at least learn how to play video games.

First, no problem with the statement about the America of yesterday being different from the America of today. That's pretty obvious to the most casual observer.

Sorry, contrary to the eternal myth the youth of each generations subscribes to, we did not "fall off the turnip truck", were not "born yesterday", and so forth. In fact, we are just a little more savvy than you might want to believe.

Lapses in ethics? Unfortunately all too common, and is prevelant in junior enlisted, senior officer, blue/collar/white collar/executive level civilians of all ages, ethinic backgrounds, both genders, and so on. In theory the higher you go the higher standard you are held to. Don't always work that way, but that's another issue.

Yes, we are pride-based. However, there a lot of reasons people leave. Some are financial; some family; some because they don't like the lifestyle; some because they can't take being held to a standard and held accountable for their actions; some because they cannot handle someone who knows just a little more than they do requiring them to do things they don't want to.

Senior folks have no problem with innovation. You have to remember, though, that probably the idea you have has already been put into practice and didn't work. Unless you have a new twist on the idea ...

Yes, some senior folks do think the younger ones have nothing to offer. I've told others before, just because you are senior does not mean the junior ones do not have things to teach you. I'm a Chief - however, if the senior medical dept. representative is an HM2, I'm going to listen to them as they are the resident expert. Why? They deal with those issues daily. I would expect them to know something about them.

Counseling? Praise in public, condemn in private. Not everyone does it that way consistently, but that is the practice. Yes, paper counseling does work. Why? Used the right way, it helps document either superior or substandard performance. Made it a lot easier for me to justify a good eval for the hot running Sailor, or a medicore eval for a Sailor that is just there collecting a paycheck or worse. I've seen too many cases where a substandard Sailor got good marks because his/her chain of command did not honestly counsel them and document it.

Yes, we have our various dining areas, etc. Not speaking for all, but I never had a problem periodically sitting down at lunch with my Sailors and engaging in non-work conversation. Amazing what you can learn about someone doing that. However, we also have our areas we go to to discuss topics that are not for general consumption. You'll find the same thing in the civilian world.

Video games - believe it or not, that is an excellent tool for developing hand-eye coordination, which you need in handling some of the modern weapons systems. The older folks figured that one out 30 years ago. Don't need to text anyone - it's better to just use my phone to call and talk to them instead (probably cheaper as well).

Yes, some think that when they reach a certain point they don't need to get dirty anymore. I still get dirty - but I also need to stand back and make sure that you also learn how to do the job safely so that I can in turn trust you to teach the job to someone else.

[ty5486]

taxi.smith
while your post mentions things that may be an issue, you forget that it is not up to the individual to judge who is worthy of respect. When you raised your right hand and swore to support and defend the constitution you also swore to obey the orders of the President and the orders of the officers appointed over you. You did not swear to only have to obey the orders of the officers that never make mistakes, or break the rules. If that were the case nobody would have done anything President Clinton ordered. But they did, because we respect the office if not the person. Certainly there are officers out there that revel in doing what they want, and appearing to get away with it, but I promise you, that old maxim "the stupid shall be punished" applies just as much to the Os as it does to the Es. You show by your post a marked problem with authority. Maybe you weren't taught respect by your parents, maybe your RDCs failed you in boot camp, or maybe you just decided that you were too smart to respect the uniform of an Ensign because of the responsibility placed on his shoulders by the President of the US. Seems to me that maybe you're too smart for this Navy. Maybe you should seek employment elsewhere, where the higher-ups never step out of line, or are publicly flogged when they do. Maybe you should start your own country, where you can write your own rules, and promote yourself supreme dictator for life, or maybe you should realize that you're in the big boy Navy, stop worrying about what other people do and get back to work. You can only fix things if you aren't broken yourself, and you shipmate are seriously broken.

[taxi.smith]

ty5486 I am not sure if you read the original thread or not but my family is never actually mentioned in it. Further, my parents are still married after 40 years and still live in the same house. I can assure you that there is nothing more wrong with me than there is with you. I can still remember all of my RDC’s and their names. I am not broken and I do get dirty. This thread has nothing to do with my service to the United States (FYI, I have never been counseled on paper, I have never gone to Mast, I have never been picked up by Shore Patrol and yes I was CAPPED if you can believe it, and I am within height weight standards). I have a great deal of respect for our country and have no desire to start my own. I have no desire to leave the Service either.

The argument is about discipline in the military and if (or how) it is different from one generation to the next.

jeffersj (my hat goes off to your argument) had several good and valid observations and you did that with out personal attack. I think that in the event that I could have worked with you I could have learned a lot.

So that makes me curious about your post ty5486 is how you may or may not define tact. Tact and respect are intertwined, aren’t they? It would be great if we could stick to the original thread and realize that we have differing side of the argument. Once again a wonderful training moment lost on personal attacks, I salute you, you are great at diverting the attention of the argument.

Back to the argument, I have a lot of respect for Officers (if you read my thread I stated “This is some of the things that they are saying”… not me) I never stated that those were my opinions. One of my jobs is to reduce resentment for the chain and put in its place arguments that are similar to yours but without person attack. If you keep reading my post I then change my argument to explore the possibility that maybe talented youth are leaving the service for other reasons. I would agree that maybe my argument is to passionate, but then again there is no passion when you are dead.

Fortunately for us this is an open forum where our ideas are not harnessed by dogma or rank or by mine either. My question now is, are personal attacks really warranted here? We as gentlemen and service members need to stick to the original premise of the argument. Right? I love to argue but I don’t appreciate personal attacks, I look forward to reading your parry.

PS I find it interesting that you decide to attack my person but have no regard to the racial comment that was made early in the thread, how does that work?

[ty5486]

Taxi smith
I've been looking and for the life of me I can't find the racial comment you mentioned. Maybe I'm scanning too fast, where is it? When I read your post I interpreted it to be showing your own thoughts, if that is not the case then I apologize.

Back to the OP. I do agree that discipline is down, and that morals are even lower (coincidence??? I think not). I disagree that our youth are better educated. I work at a MEPS and the average ASVAB score hasn't gone up. I see too many kids coming out of high school that can barely read, can't do simple math on paper (don't even bother trying to get them to do it in their heads), and don't even know when WWII was. Sure, they can run their blackberries like pros, but that's not a sign of education just practice.

Oh, and I disagree that Tiger Woods is a better player than Bobby Jones. Looking at their respective competition and realizing that Bobby Jones is the only player ever to win the grand slam should be enough, let alone Jones' many other records achieved during a short career.

[oldnavy6618]

I read a lot about how the younger generation of military personnel isn't as disciplined and shows less respect to those of senior rank.

I think there are basically two reasons for this:

1. Elimination of physical counseling.

2. America's general elimination of a class-based society.

On point one: There used to be a time where people were put in their place by taking a walk out back or in the forward locker. I know that it went too far too many times. But, it did keep people in line.

On point two: In the ages prior to WWII officers were generally of noble blood. The common soldiers and sailors were generally peasants (for lack of a better word).

Everyone knew their station in life. There were written and unwritten social rules about how to speak, eat and so on. Peasants rarely became officers. The civilian social structure was echoed in the military.

Then WWII came. Millions of Americans from all walks of life (as in all social classes) were thrust into positions that they otherwise wouldn't have had the opportunity to take.

The post WWII era saw a huge change in the social classes of America. As the years go on there becomes very little to separate the rich from the poor. The rich aren't beyond the law anymore. The poor can afford big screen TVs.

So, a poor kid joins the military and sees higher ranking people and thinks "They're no better than I am" and acts like it.

And due to point number one above, not much can be done about it except paperwork and extra duty.

Do you agree?

First, you are talking about Deck plate discipline. where you and the non-rate go to the fan room. First if you know leadership, you don't need that sort of thing. Most people that used that method, only had that hammer in their tool box of skills.

Your statement about officers, is bilge. The Majority of Officers came from quite ordinary back grounds.
The difference was going to a service academy, like west point, or a college.

That Poor kid is right, in some regard, on a non-military level, The officer is not better than the kid. Militarily, The Officer has power and Authority over the kid, With that comes responsibility as well, at times a crushing amount. Officers, are responsible for every action, educational opportunity, and the safety and well being of everyone assigned to them. You may want to remember Respect is earned. Wearing an Officers uniform does not gain you Respect, and thus yes the Poor kid, may act as if the Officer is no better than him, because, mainly Most officers exercise the power, and authority, but fail to discharge the responsibility they have.

[Unregistered]

All of you have valid points but i think the issue starts way before the military and jsut continues on.

I remember when I was afraid of doing something wrong because I would catch a beating from my parents or do something against the law for fear of getting locked up...these fears no longer exist. As said above parents are no longer parents ..they are buddies and that just simply doesnt work when it comes down to discipline. If a person can get away with it once then they will think they can do it every time.

The lack of respect is because they dont care. They did it once and now they know that they can get away with it and nothing will happen...or at the most they will get a stern talking and maybe some extra duties....in their minds though they win because no matter what the senior official did they didnt give in and obey...a small victory to them but one that fuels their fire to keep on doing the wrong thing. Physical discipline at one point in time did help this problem but it has slowly become more abandoned that it wouldnt help out anymore now than paperwork does....

We are in a tail spin going down and something needs to be done. It needs to start with people taking some ownership of what they are doing and what they are tasked to do...we need to stop this idea that everything should be given to us and that you are my equal...its not the case and it never will be. This young generation needs to leaern that it isnt "the govts. fault" and take their heads out of their 3rd point of contact and start to work for what they want...they need to grow up and realize that in this world you work for what you want. suck it up and drive on.

[beetlebailey_33]

Is discipline down? Sure, but compared to what time period? I remember hearing about post-Vietnam when CQ carried a "Billy Club" when walking the hallways of the barracks. Soldiers of today are not the same as when "my generation" was growing up. They are more skeptical than we were. We allowed ourselves to be beaten, thinking that would make us a better Soldier. We think because Soldiers question us, that they are being disrespectful. I feel this generation is not afraid to call "BS" when they see it. I see with this generation that they will give you that undying loyalty, but you have to earn it. Sure, discipline is down, but you can't compare the 40's to now. Times change and so do the people, but every generation has its "few bad apples". If we want out Soldiers to be disciplined, we have to make sure we are squared away. Soldiers will watch you like a hawk. We can't be like the NCO's that brought me up, with the "do as I say, not as I do". If you want discipline, then instill it and quit just sitting around and doing nothing about. These Soldiers want and desire leadership, they just sometimes have noone who gives it to them.

[Unregistered]

I entered the Army in 1975, too late to get shot at in Viet Nam, but not late enough to avoid the many problems that existed as a result of it. Twenty-one years later I retired. Perhaps my views of discipline are skewed as a result of my first duty assignment in Hanau, but I can definately say that, up to the time of my retirement, discipline was absolutely worse in the "good ol'days". Drug and alcohol abuse were common, assult not unheard of, and we were chaptering out an average of one person per day in the battalion I was assigned to. As the concept of a volunteer army progressed and we began to demand a better education and was able to be more selective in the quality of people we accepted, officer and enlisted, discipline improved. There were always problems, but by the time I retired they were much more managable, and discipline light years from where it had been at the beginning of my career. I freely admit that was twelve years ago, but I have tried to keep my finger on the pulse of the Army through friends, and I have a son who is a Staff Sergeant in the 82nd. His descriptions of the problems he encounters are consistant with those I delt with toward the end of my career, and certainly not the magnitude of those I encountered at the beginning.

I think though that discipline is more than just failure to salute, disrespectful speech, or drug and alcohol abuse, although these are serious problems and valid indicators of the state of discipline. In my opinion, and we all know about opinions, everyone's got one, the true essance of discipline is whether or not the individual or organization performs their mission to the best of their ability in the most adverse conditions. Very often the negative indicators of discipline are due to a failure of leadership. Failure to lead from the front, failure to provide quality, consistant, and continuing training, failure to establish a firm set of standards and consistantly administer corrective actions for infractions of those standards. Sometimes this lack of good leadership is the result of inexperience as is often the case with junior officers and junior NCOs. It has been my experience that a good senior NCO can take care of either problem. If the Senior NCO doesn't feel it their responsibility to help train their junior officers and NCOs then I submit that they are not good NCOs and should be purged from the system. There was a time when the ability of the platoon leader reflected, indirectly, on the platoon sergeant, and they worked hard to have their platoon leader learn and look good. There are always those officers and NCOs who never learn or are unwilling to put forth the effort to make things sucessful. Sometimes the lack of leadership is due to inept or lackadaisical personnel being in positions of responsibility, unable or unwilling to put in the extra measure that is required to bring their organization to the standard necessary to excel. The military has a system for eliminating these type of people, and it generally works quite well.

Has discipline broken down? I'm not on the line, but I sort of doubt it. Are there more problems than before? I would say certainly. The stress of repeated deployments and the lowering of recruiting standards make it inevitable even in units with the best of leadership. News reports and stories from friends would tend to indicate that in some units discipline has in fact broken down, however, the fact that the majority of the Army, made up of volunteers having participated in numerous combat deployments, still performs their mission in a professional manner in difficult circumstances seems to indicate that discipline is still in pretty good shape.

[10THMOUNTIANMAN]

Discpline starts at home !! Respect is learned thru discpline !! First off, teaching discpline to a child growing up today will land you in jail with felony charges, thats if it was given out or being administered the old fashion way. The problem lays within our political system and our society. Our government controls every aspect of raising up a child in a discplined and respectful way. This society that we live in finds no fault within its self. We are so hung up on pointing fingers at others to blame for our own mistakes. We live in such a gray area of life where we find no wrong with anything. We allow things to go on with out disrupting its progression into something more catastrophic. I was raised up and taught that there was NO gray area. It was either black or white. Meaning right or wrong !! Then I went into the service and taught the same values as well. Gray areas kill,destroy,mame,and breakdown what is right. I can remember back in 1990 when discpline in basic training was changed. I look back at that now and see the breakdown that was caused by one Chaplian who went to the top to get it changed. Then the media comes along and thinks that life in the MILITARY should be the same as in the civilian world NOT !! But our poloticians allowed this breakdown to filter in, what a shame. When did the civilian population dicide it was there call on how the military should be ran ? I think the military should get back the old school basics of training,discpline,and teaching self respec!! But who am I to think this way, I am a nobody an old soldier who served and respected and still contain those values. We need change, NOT Obamas or McCain's change but the whole political system needs to be stripped and cleaned out and replaced with people that dont belive in the Gray line, but who are in touch with what is respectable and right. Not for self gain but gain for all.

10th Mountianman 1986-1991 2/22nd inf.

[Devosquid]

RHIP...No!!!!! its RHIR. Rank has its responsibilities. Always remember that. The seinor NCO's work for the NCO's. The NCO's work for the junior enlisted. That is the way to run things and I proved it in Iraq. 18 people taken with me and 18 people came home. Discipline was the reason we lost Vietnam. Discipline is the oppisite of free will. Discipline is why the USSR fell. One last thing, watch the closing naval battle in Pirates of the Carribean 3. The HMS Endevour should have blown the Flying Duchman and the Black Pearl out of the water but due to the DISCIPLINE of that ship not a shot was fired with out word from the captain....there was no free will.

[Measure Man]

RHIP...No!!!!! its RHIR. Rank has its responsibilities. Always remember that. The seinor NCO's work for the NCO's. The NCO's work for the junior enlisted. That is the way to run things and I proved it in Iraq. 18 people taken with me and 18 people came home.

Thank you for your service and congrats on a job well done.

Discipline was the reason we lost Vietnam.

Please elaborate. How is that exactly?

Discipline is the oppisite of free will. Discipline is why the USSR fell.

Your contention is that discipline is a bad thing? Or am I misunderstanding you?

One last thing, watch the closing naval battle in Pirates of the Carribean 3. The HMS Endevour should have blown the Flying Duchman and the Black Pearl out of the water but due to the DISCIPLINE of that ship not a shot was fired with out word from the captain....there was no free will.

It's a movie

[Unregistered]

This is what you get when you turn the ARMY into "soft and gentle". Senior NCO's get in more trouble for disciplining a Soldier than the Soldier does for the actions that landed them in trouble the first place. I've witnessed it with my own eyes and it disgust me, the lact of respect is so evident. I worked in an organization that supported AIT and the things those Soldiers got away with were unbelievable! I would go home frustrated at night because no one was being held to any standards of rescept, responsibility (morally or etthically) or self descipline.

[Variable Wind]

Thank you for your service and congrats on a job well done.



Please elaborate. How is that exactly?



Your contention is that discipline is a bad thing? Or am I misunderstanding you?



It's a movie

LMAO!!! Great reply.

[10THMOUNTIANMAN]

LMAO....case in point.....like I said in my earlier writing, our society is so screwed up and so wrapped up in HOLLYWOOD, that they literaly believe that what is in movies and shows are are fact. We live in such a fictional society and centered on ourselves and cant think outside of the box without going out of bounds with it. People in this country cant see past themselves or past the end of there noses. Its just a sign of self disrespect and a major lack of any kind of discpline!! We lost all of our morals,respect and discpline about 40 years ago or so. When the 60's and 70's came around that is where it all went down the drain. Dont get me wrong there has always been some discpline issues forever. But, the crisis started then. The Military did take a step forward, but then it took a major step back as well. Thanks to the MEDIA, HOLLYWOOD, and FICTIONAL WRITERS AND SUCH, this is what you get today in our society a huge mess. and a bunch of out of control individuals who have NO direction or any kind of discpline or self respect. But then again who am I to say such things that sound so boring and truthful. Lets get back to basics of teaching the straight and narrow. Dont lean to the gray areas thats the liberal way. You know how they think nothing wrong with nothing and laws are made to be broken. But, that is the attitude in the kids today wether in the military or in the civilian population, because they are a copy cat of MOM and DAD. Discpline starts at home, not at school or in the MILITARY!!

10thMountianman 1985-1991 2/22 Inf.

[Unregistered]

They should do like Saddams Army did back in the days and flogg undisciplined soldiers until their feet bleed!!! Soldiers who do drugs on the battlefield should be shot dead immediatelly due to them being a threat to the platoon!! Soldiers should be beaten and punched for disrespecting the higher authority. They have no right to question leadership!! They mouth off, they should be punched in the mouth until they bleed immediately!! I also think that senior NCO's and Officer should be allowed to carry loaded pistols and whips for soldiers who are out of line!!! The fear of serious beatings or death will make them think twice before they mess up!! NCO's and Officers should be allowed to be as ruthless as possible to get what they deserve, respect!! We can learn allot from the Russians, their soldiers get beaten on a daily basis for minor inflictions and look how effective they were in the Georgian Conflict and we cannot even win a war against a few uneducated stinky muslims with guns!!!

[Your_Name_Here]

They should do like Saddams Army did back in the days and flogg undisciplined soldiers until their feet bleed!!! Soldiers who do drugs on the battlefield should be shot dead immediatelly due to them being a threat to the platoon!! Soldiers should be beaten and punched for disrespecting the higher authority. They have no right to question leadership!! They mouth off, they should be punched in the mouth until they bleed immediately!! I also think that senior NCO's and Officer should be allowed to carry loaded pistols and whips for soldiers who are out of line!!! The fear of serious beatings or death will make them think twice before they mess up!! NCO's and Officers should be allowed to be as ruthless as possible to get what they deserve, respect!! We can learn allot from the Russians, their soldiers get beaten on a daily basis for minor inflictions and look how effective they were in the Georgian Conflict and we cannot even win a war against a few uneducated stinky muslims with guns!!!

Yeah, and look at the the way they fought as a result--ZERO wins, ONE tie: Iran, and TWO LOSSES: US.
There is a right way, and a WRONG way, to question leadership; once a decision is made though, THEN the right to question ends. Violence used as a means to instill discipline only instills fear, NOT RESPECT, and might inspire revenge or worse--mutiny. No one I know on AD/Reserve/Guard would EVER want to go this route. If you are on AD, you want YOUR ass kicked--or to get shot dead--for what you THINK is an honest mistake? (and don't even TRY to sell me that "I'll never make a mistake" sh!t) You must be in High School still to seriously believe what you just posted. :rolleyes:

As to your assertion that the Russian's idea of discipline in their ranks carried them to victory--the unfortunate fact is that my old HS football team, if properly equipped, could have defeated the Georgians in combat. Furthermore, the Russians used overwhelming numbers to make up for their shortcomings in planning strategy. Their victory isn't so impressive looking at it as such. Finally, any military force will have trouble dealing with groups using insurgent/guerrilla tactics. Since you think it's so easy though, why don't you show us all how it's done; time to "put up or SHUT UP."

[Unregistered]

Boy, the good old days when rich white males could beat on the rest of us...

Are you serious?

Why do you have to bring in the "rich white male" into this? Your point isn't a point taken, as it has no bearing of intelligence or analytical thought. Your letting emotions take hold of your thought processes and it tells me you are not well fit intellectually.

[Devosquid]

They should do like Saddams Army did back in the days and flogg undisciplined soldiers until their feet bleed!!! Soldiers who do drugs on the battlefield should be shot dead immediatelly due to them being a threat to the platoon!! Soldiers should be beaten and punched for disrespecting the higher authority. They have no right to question leadership!! They mouth off, they should be punched in the mouth until they bleed immediately!! I also think that senior NCO's and Officer should be allowed to carry loaded pistols and whips for soldiers who are out of line!!! The fear of serious beatings or death will make them think twice before they mess up!! NCO's and Officers should be allowed to be as ruthless as possible to get what they deserve, respect!! We can learn allot from the Russians, their soldiers get beaten on a daily basis for minor inflictions and look how effective they were in the Georgian Conflict and we cannot even win a war against a few uneducated stinky muslims with guns!!!
YES COMMRAD Or "Its good to be the King"
Go back to the middle ages where that kind of behavior is acceptable.

[Devosquid]

Thank you for your service and congrats on a job well done.



Please elaborate. How is that exactly?



Your contention is that discipline is a bad thing? Or am I misunderstanding you?



It's a movie


1st point: Discipline is the worst thing. It is nothing more than.. I am better than you therefore you will serve me. All the BS floating around about having self discipline is just a play on words to make disclipine look like a good thing so let me clarify once and for all times the TRUE meaning of self discipline. Screwing yourself over so thoes in authority dont have to waste time or energy to screw you over. ie You win some type of huge cash prise and you have 4 houres to redeem it. If you OBEY and have self discipline it will take you 5 houres to drive to the destination to get your stuff. A self disciplined person would drive the 5 houres and be SOL because he was worried about the cops having to spent the energy to stop him. SELF DISCIPLINE LOOSES AGIN...some one with NO discipline speeds to collect his goodies and when the cops get to him he BUYS THEIR SOULS and has change. NO DISCIPLINE WINS AGAIN.
Pirates of the carrabian was a movie but based on historical behavior of the Royal Navy. Look at history and nothing happened on a HMS ship unless an officer gave an order.

[Devosquid]

First off, teaching discpline to a child growing up today will land you in jail with felony charges.....Thats if your lucky and I dont get to you 1st. I have a record of stoping parents when they cross the line. I dont care how big they are either. It takes a real man to continuously prove to his pre-teen kids that he is physicaly superior to them........Thats stupidity and true discipline!!!!
There is no TEAMWORK in DISCIPLINE and no DISCIPLINE in TEAMWORK......DISCIPLINE is the polar oppisite of FREE WILL

[Devosquid]

AND THE LAST THING I Forgot tp post because I am in AFGANASTAN and tired is that the last time the UCMJ was altered by public outcry was 1947. IT need congressional oversite NOW. But as tempory fix goto google and download the MCM for 2008. That will at least cease all the article 15's given out for breaking articles 145,135,137,and 141...............which dont exist but unedcuated people dont know that
I am SQUID

[Your_Name_Here]

AND THE LAST THING I Forgot tp post because I am in AFGANASTAN and tired is that the last time the UCMJ was altered by public outcry was 1947. IT need congressional oversite NOW. But as tempory fix goto google and download the MCM for 2008. That will at least cease all the article 15's given out for breaking articles 145,135,137,and 141...............which dont exist but unedcuated people dont know that
I am SQUID

Let's see if we got this straight:

The CO somewhere in country is handing down Art. 15's for the ones you cited? Sounds like they don't have anything better to do than nail people on bogus charges. BTW, I looked up each of the Articles you mentioned--they exist alright--but they are NOT punitive Articles (86, 87, 91, 92, etc.) They deal with Court of Military Appeals and related stuff. If the individuals are getting offered Art. 15s based on such charges, going to Court-Martial will end that BS in a hurry too. Stay safe.

[Devosquid]

You are correct on that one. My bad the punitive articles end after 134. I have seen this in the USAF and the 1st question I an asked is "Are you a layer?" My answer.."Are you?" Their responce is the admition of guilt for all NCO's "Dont disrespect me airman"

[raceagainstatrophy]

I don't know if I agree there is a discipline problem in the Army. I haven't seen any evidence of it. There may be a perception on the part of some people but perception is not the same as reality. If it is the case I certainly don't agree with the statement that it is because we, the peasants have forgotten our place or are not being beaten often enough.

Our military reflects the society it draws recruits from. Look no further than your own homes, schools, churches and communities for the problem. Yes, young people today are more likely to distrust authority but they have plenty of reasons to. Authority is often hypocritical, dishonest and greedy.

Our peasant soldiers have been poorly served by their leadership lately. Although I proudly did my 20 I I wouldn't serve in the Army today.

[MO6303329]

I agree absoultely

[Your_Name_Here]

1st point: Discipline is the worst thing. It is nothing more than.. I am better than you therefore you will serve me. All the BS floating around about having self discipline is just a play on words to make disclipine look like a good thing so let me clarify once and for all times the TRUE meaning of self discipline. Screwing yourself over so thoes in authority dont have to waste time or energy to screw you over. ie You win some type of huge cash prise and you have 4 houres to redeem it. If you OBEY and have self discipline it will take you 5 houres to drive to the destination to get your stuff. A self disciplined person would drive the 5 houres and be SOL because he was worried about the cops having to spent the energy to stop him. SELF DISCIPLINE LOOSES AGIN...some one with NO discipline speeds to collect his goodies and when the cops get to him he BUYS THEIR SOULS and has change. NO DISCIPLINE WINS AGAIN.
Pirates of the carrabian was a movie but based on historical behavior of the Royal Navy. Look at history and nothing happened on a HMS ship unless an officer gave an order.

Squid,

Whoever the F*** gave you the concept of discipline that you just spewed out, sold you the biggest load of Pig-Crap I have ever read!!! It isn't ANYTHING like "I am better than you therefore you will serve me," in reality. Your little parable is a bomb like the one I encountered in the Men's room stall the other day, but we'll get to that in a minute.

Let ME spell out for you what discipline is: doing the right thing, at the right time, with as little deviation as humanly possible (none is preferable). Self-discipline adds to this with...whether anyone is looking or not.
If some arrogant SOB is out there trying to be "lord of the domain"--then he/she doesn't get what real leadership is about. Discipline is also what enables a group of what are otherwise individuals, to be able to accomplish things that are far too big for any one person to do. Stuff like--I dunno--mission objectives, maybe? One other thing: Rank should NEVER be regarded as a symbol of personal superiority, those who do have a serious character flaw or weakness; it is a sign of increased/significant job responsibility and experience.

Now, to your little scenario: All you tried to prove is that short-cuts always win. Sometimes they will, but many times, especially when what's at stake is something really meaningful, they will not.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt here and not assume that you are someone who will take short-cuts at the drop of a hat. However, I sure the hell hope you aren't setting THESE examples for ANYONE that might be in your charge--that would be a disaster waiting to happen.

[Devosquid]

Whoever the F*** gave you the concept of discipline that you just spewed out….
13 Years active Duty in the US Military……

Let ME spell out for you what discipline is: doing the right thing, at the right time, with as little deviation as humanly possible…….
Incorrect, what you describe is integrity not discipline. Comparing discipline and integrity are like comparing apples and lemons. All a hero is.. is someone who does the right thing when at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Self-discipline adds to this with...whether anyone is looking or not.
I have already described the TRUE meaning of self discipline

I will give you the benefit of the doubt here and not assume that you are someone who will take short-cuts at the drop of a hat.

Thank you. I have integrity and since the age of 18 I have used it and been F@#$ ed over by people using short cuts and then when their projects go bad they blame it on me because I HAVE NO PROFESSIONALISM in my life.
:PROFESSIONALISM is not knowing your job, Taking credit for others work, you blame your mistakes on your underlings. 80% of your productive energies are spent on stabbing your bosses in the back and keeping your underlings down. Look at White collar America and theirs my proof.

[Your_Name_Here]

Whoever the F*** gave you the concept of discipline that you just spewed out….
13 Years active Duty in the US Military……

Let ME spell out for you what discipline is: doing the right thing, at the right time, with as little deviation as humanly possible…….
Incorrect, what you describe is integrity not discipline. Comparing discipline and integrity are like comparing apples and lemons. All a hero is.. is someone who does the right thing when at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Self-discipline adds to this with...whether anyone is looking or not.
I have already described the TRUE meaning of self discipline

I will give you the benefit of the doubt here and not assume that you are someone who will take short-cuts at the drop of a hat.

Thank you. I have integrity and since the age of 18 I have used it and been F@#$ ed over by people using short cuts and then when their projects go bad they blame it on me because I HAVE NO PROFESSIONALISM in my life.
:PROFESSIONALISM is not knowing your job, Taking credit for others work, you blame your mistakes on your underlings. 80% of your productive energies are spent on stabbing your bosses in the back and keeping your underlings down. Look at White collar America and theirs my proof.

Squid,
You are obviously under stress and I hope you were able to successfully vent. Again, I will not agree with your definition of either discipline OR self-discipline, as they are at least as inaccurate as my definitions.
SO--just for you:
Discipline
Dis"ci*pline\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Disciplined; p. pr. & vb. n. Disciplining.] [Cf. LL. disciplinarian to flog, fr. L. disciplina discipline, and F. discipliner to discipline.]

1. To educate; to develop by instruction and exercise; to train.

2. To accustom to regular and systematic action; to bring under control so as to act systematically; to train to act together under orders; to teach subordination to; to form a habit of obedience in; to drill.

Ill armed, and worse disciplined. --Clarendon.

His mind . . . imperfectly disciplined by nature. --Macaulay.

3. To improve by corrective and penal methods; to chastise; to correct.

Has he disciplined Aufidius soundly? --Shak.

4. To inflict ecclesiastical censures and penalties upon.

Syn: To train; form; teach; instruct; bring up; regulate; correct; chasten; chastise; punish.

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

I guess I was shooting for definition #2...

If these things are happening as much as you have said, you need to bring it up to someone, your boss's boss, First Shirt, somebody who will listen. If the stress gets too much, see the Chaplain--never any shame to see him/her. Try to note when those bad bosses rotate out, or if you are getting short--count days until you rotate out.
Whatever you do though, try to remember this happy thought: EVERYONE gets theirs in the end. EVERYONE. Hang on. Day by day if necessary.

[Devosquid]

Dude .....I am a cilvilian

[Devosquid]

Accualy if you must know I broke my last bosses heart when I seaporated from the USAF. He wanted me to stay and that entire staff was outstanding except from the one maverick Msg who was the fourth most PROFESSIONAL NCO I have ever seen. But an E5 over 12 making 20K/yr with one allotment of 298/month. dosent compare to 80K/yr in contracting

[Measure Man]

Why do you have to bring in the "rich white male" into this? Your point isn't a point taken, as it has no bearing of intelligence or analytical thought. Your letting emotions take hold of your thought processes and it tells me you are not well fit intellectually.

I love being lectured on intelligence and analytical thought by someone who can't put together a coherent sentence.

[Unregistered]

I disagree that the youth of today aren't behaving badly. Since when has it been acceptable to wear your pants bellow your butt? Since when has it been acceptable to wear a hat when you're eating? Since when has it been acceptable to say 'yeah' to a person forty years your senior? Since when did young people go to job interviews wearing shorts and flip-flops? Since when was it okay to call your boss 'dude?' I could go on, but I won't.

Look pal,
It's called changing times. Although I never did that when I was younger, that doesnt mean its wrong. Eating a hat when your eating? Are you freaking kidding? Where did you grow up, or better yet, how old ARE you? While I agree you take your hat off in buildings, it doenst bother me when I see civillians wearing them inside. Let people do what they want if they arent in the military. Thats what this thread is about. No one sags their ACU's where I'm from, bud.

[Variable Wind]

Look pal,
It's called changing times. Although I never did that when I was younger, that doesnt mean its wrong. Eating a hat when your eating? Are you freaking kidding? Where did you grow up, or better yet, how old ARE you? While I agree you take your hat off in buildings, it doenst bother me when I see civillians wearing them inside. Let people do what they want if they arent in the military. Thats what this thread is about. No one sags their ACU's where I'm from, bud.

Noone is denying that times are changing. We are wondering whether they are changing for the better. I think they are getting worse. Its how we are raising our youth. Its the entitlement game. I know I know we were all brats at some point in our lives but Im young enough to remember quite vividly the days where I was a little shit. Its not like now, kids are given a medal for participation, parenting policies like that have a significant effect on how kids mature. My dad wont go to a fast food restaraunt anymore because of what the institution has become, he remembers what they used to be like. Noone takes pride in their work anymore, its just a means to an end. Im not saying that our youth is stupid, just unmotivated.

[dan.garcia1]

The reason we have a break down in disipline is because the Army and Nation is changing ! We allow standards to be lowered and let just about anybody join our forces. Yelling at soldier when they mess up gets there attention ,and asking soldier's can you please don't mess up doesn't work. "NCO when I was in was the back bone of the Army " I hope this is true because we have to rely on them to keep young soldier alive and train them to be the best and become the next Sergeant to take over when they retire or move on.


"Retired and still serving our nation"

Daniel R.Garcia

[kojack]

Liberals is the correct answer. Got terrorists? Thank a liberal. Got crime and gang members? Thank the liberals. Out of control welfare and illegal immigration? Thank a liberal. LArge numbers of pregnant nondeployable soldiers? Thank the liberals. Got a "rankless" military where everyone is the "same" and an NCO is expected to patronize a soldier to get him to do his job? Thank the libs.

This country has divided and d her military is in decay thanks to garbage like Pelosi, Reid, Boxer, Franks, Obama, Feinstein, etc. They're cancers.

Finally, look at that liberal cesspool California. The terminator is asking for seven BILLION to bail out that Hell hole of welfare, entitlements, crime, hand outs, etc. That state is essentailly DONE becauause of liberal policies and culture'. With the spew from the libs, why aren't places like California, Detroit, Chicago, etc just Gardens of Edens?! They're full of crime and bankrupt. Pelosi represents California, so does Boxer and Feinstein. Just a lovely dump....

[MO6303329]

[QUOTE=RADENNIS0;131557]I read a lot about how the younger generation of military personnel isn't as disciplined and shows less respect to those of senior rank.

I think there are basically two reasons for this:

1. Elimination of physical counseling

[Shrike]

[QUOTE=RADENNIS0;131557]I read a lot about how the younger generation of military personnel isn't as disciplined and shows less respect to those of senior rank.

I think there are basically two reasons for this:

1. Elimination of physical counseling

do you agree?

I completely agree. In Lt Col Larry Praveceks squadron a Capt Hekcer was counseled for lying, supporting the cheating on PT tests and blatently ignoring flying regs placing the safety and welfare of others at stake. In the end Lt Col Larry Pravecek kicked the counseler (Major type) out fo the squadron. The ironic thing is Lt Col Larry Praveck told the Major to turn his head and the Major said no, so Lt Col Larry Praveck knew about this and did nothing.


In what way does your example support the point - elimination of physical counseling is one of the two main reasons for one person's perceived breakdown in military discipline - that you say you agree with?

[MACHINE666]

Funny how American and Kojack are willing to point the finger at the Liberals, yet from what I've observed, the majority of Americans are conservatives, be they Republicans or Democrats.

I have a buddy who calls himself a "Liberal" but he is a better American than most people I've come across. He's divorced and has custody of his daughter, putting her first before his own needs. He's got a job doing IT work and is a responsible citizen too. Oh yeah, and this will probably get some people upset - he's Jewish - not that it should matter, but I know that to some people it's a sore spot, considering the military is primarily a bunch of Christian Conservatives insensitive to the freedoms they promote.

While it's easy to point fingers at "them" there are more of "us" out there contributing to the problem - so whose really under the microsope now? As for terrorism, we're just reaping what our government has sown. Ever since FDR we've had a very nasty habit of propping up one flunky after another who we think will further our interests in whatever backwater country they're abusing, until the citizens overthrow that guy and put someone in office who will do what they want instead. When word gets out that whatever Banana Republic dictator that was overthrown was our finger puppet, that's when they react naturally against us. So if you think about it, is it any wonder we're in the mess we're facing now?

;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

[MO6303329]

[QUOTE=MO6303329;140715]


In what way does your example support the point - elimination of physical counseling is one of the two main reasons for one person's perceived breakdown in military discipline - that you say you agree with?

Ah yes I agree with physcial counseling and I was not clear enough in trying to point out that any type of counseling verbal and physical will do nothing if those in charge do not have the back bone to support it.

[kojack]

Funny how American and Kojack are willing to point the finger at the Liberals, yet from what I've observed, the majority of Americans are conservatives, be they Republicans or Democrats.

I have a buddy who calls himself a "Liberal" but he is a better American than most people I've come across. He's divorced and has custody of his daughter, putting her first before his own needs. He's got a job doing IT work and is a responsible citizen too. Oh yeah, and this will probably get some people upset - he's Jewish - not that it should matter, but I know that to some people it's a sore spot, considering the military is primarily a bunch of Christian Conservatives insensitive to the freedoms they promote.

While it's easy to point fingers at "them" there are more of "us" out there contributing to the problem - so whose really under the microsope now? As for terrorism, we're just reaping what our government has sown. Ever since FDR we've had a very nasty habit of propping up one flunky after another who we think will further our interests in whatever backwater country they're abusing, until the citizens overthrow that guy and put someone in office who will do what they want instead. When word gets out that whatever Banana Republic dictator that was overthrown was our finger puppet, that's when they react naturally against us. So if you think about it, is it any wonder we're in the mess we're facing now?

;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

So, your divorced buddy is working and taking care of the kids he FATHERED. How does that make him exceptional? That is what I EXPECT him to do. You probably think him as a victim becuase society "made" him a single daddy.... The Jews are Gods people and that is the way I was raised. I thought libs didnt like Jews for the Libs love of Islam and Islamic terrorists. And in your bizarre world, America, the most generous nation in history, causes every problem in the solar system. Like Michelle Obama, there just isnt anything to be proud of in America.... You're sad.

[Unregistered]

Oh man, some butter bar is trying to make himself feel good...

[MACHINE666]

[QUOTE=kojack;140843] So, your divorced buddy is working and taking care of the kids he FATHERED. How does that make him exceptional? That is what I EXPECT him to do. You probably think him as a victim becuase society "made" him a single daddy.... The Jews are Gods people and that is the way I was raised. I thought libs didnt like Jews for the Libs love of Islam and Islamic terrorists. And in your bizarre world, America, the most generous nation in history, causes every problem in the solar system. Like Michelle Obama, there just isnt anything to be proud of in America.... You're sad.[/QUOTE ]

No but most of your redneck brethren who scream they love Jesus are quick to bash the Jews as being "Liberal scum" and a bunch of other inappropriate phrases I won't use here. I was trying to illustrate a point that your stereotype of Liberals was false since not everyone meets your description as you originally pointed out.

Just remember that every time you point a finger at someone, you have three fingers pointing back at yourself. While America has done many things in the name of righteousness, many more things have been done to discredit the goodness and sacrifices that have been made. That's not to say that there aren't any other countries out there that don't have dirt on their hands, but if we're supposed to be the "world's leader" then we should be above reproach, bottom line. I've seen enough of the world to know than to trust everything that Fox News or CNN throws my way, and that every time a politician lies, their lips move.

Please get some enlightenment as well as tolerance. Start out with the US Constitution and Bill of Rights, and then read what your Jesus Christ taught about humility in your Holy Bible. I would also recommend some Buddhist philosophy, but that might be too much for you to handle since it's "un-American"...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[USMC_8156]

Noone is denying that times are changing. We are wondering whether they are changing for the better. I think they are getting worse. Its how we are raising our youth. Its the entitlement game. I know I know we were all brats at some point in our lives but Im young enough to remember quite vividly the days where I was a little shit. Its not like now, kids are given a medal for participation, parenting policies like that have a significant effect on how kids mature. My dad wont go to a fast food restaraunt anymore because of what the institution has become, he remembers what they used to be like. Noone takes pride in their work anymore, its just a means to an end. Im not saying that our youth is stupid, just unmotivated.

Holy smoke Batman, an on-topic post!

I think this is a cycle...my generation (which is currently 16-28, I'd guess) is one of the most undisciplined, useless little punks in the history of the world. The sense of self-entitlement is amazing, and like you say, we have no pride.

What I don't believe is that it is the first time this has happened in history. Everything is cyclical, and eventually things will pop back into a more harsh environment in which we raise chidlren, which will result in a superior adult class. Not surprisingly, the men and women from my generation who grew up with parents who were not afraid to discipline and love their children are the ones who are successful.

I spoke with a teacher recently who said she believes it comes from the way the Baby-Boomers rasied us, and eventually, hopefully, a generation will mature back into a reasonable group of parents.

[MACHINE666]

I think what people are failing to indentify or at least people are afraid to tackle is the topic of egalitarianism and how people have taken it to extremes. The definition alone is an ideal principle, but where it fails is when you try to convince people that something of low quality is the same as something of high quality....like comparing a grass hut on the Serengeti to the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris as being aesthetically and structurally on par. The same can be said for social standards and how our society has allowed the low-lifes and deadbeats to dictate to us what is acceptable. Instead of raising the standard for everyone back in the 1960's, the whole hippie movement lowered the bar immeasurably, allowing the same privleges afforded to a Harvard mathematician to Charles Manson or the Banana Splits Gang. Because nobody had to deliver the goods anymore, everyone was afforded to feel like they were a big shot. At first it started out as a simple pebble rolling, but add 40 years, agendas pushed by special-interest groups, and the fact that political correctness has made it taboo to demand accountability, and that same pebble is now an avalanche spinning out of control. Because America has become so enchanted with human relations and feel good opportunity events, any damage control now is too little, too late.

How this all impacts the military is that we pull our recruits from the very society that can barely pay its bills, has criminal backgrounds, and is out dissolving the family unit by the poor choices they continue to make - if you think I'm joking, just look at the way how the Army has dropped their recruiting standards, and you'll see what I'm talking about. They come from all walks of life, all religious and ethnic backgrounds, and as hard pressed as the recruiters are to keep the riff-raff out of the services, they have recruiting quotas they have to meet, and figure the military will put someone to good use scraping chewing gum off the sidewalk if they can't function as a trigger puller in whatever political mess we find ourselves in.

In an over-simplified explanation, that's the way I see it.....

[USMC_8156]

I think what people are failing to indentify or at least people are afraid to tackle is the topic of egalitarianism and how people have taken it to extremes. The definition alone is an ideal principle, but where it fails is when you try to convince people that something of low quality is the same as something of high quality....like comparing a grass hut on the Serengeti to the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris as being aesthetically and structurally on par. The same can be said for social standards and how our society has allowed the low-lifes and deadbeats to dictate to us what is acceptable. Instead of raising the standard for everyone back in the 1960's, the whole hippie movement lowered the bar immeasurably, allowing the same privleges afforded to a Harvard mathematician to Charles Manson or the Banana Splits Gang. Because nobody had to deliver the goods anymore, everyone was afforded to feel like they were a big shot. At first it started out as a simple pebble rolling, but add 40 years, agendas pushed by special-interest groups, and the fact that political correctness has made it taboo to demand accountability, and that same pebble is now an avalanche spinning out of control. Because America has become so enchanted with human relations and feel good opportunity events, any damage control now is too little, too late.

How this all impacts the military is that we pull our recruits from the very society that can barely pay its bills, has criminal backgrounds, and is out dissolving the family unit by the poor choices they continue to make - if you think I'm joking, just look at the way how the Army has dropped their recruiting standards, and you'll see what I'm talking about. They come from all walks of life, all religious and ethnic backgrounds, and as hard pressed as the recruiters are to keep the riff-raff out of the services, they have recruiting quotas they have to meet, and figure the military will put someone to good use scraping chewing gum off the sidewalk if they can't function as a trigger puller in whatever political mess we find ourselves in.

In an over-simplified explanation, that's the way I see it.....

Good Post. Social Relativism is the devil.

[DeadGeneration]

I think with the baby boomers going into retirement we're just starting to get more "grumpy old man" syndrome.

To include "I used to walk to school in the snow uphill both ways."

I love that commercial where the old golfer tells the young golfer that he used to hit the ball over the tree into the green. The young golfer tries and it hits the top of the tree and falls. The old golfer reveals "The tree used to be shorter when I was younger." Awesome commercial.

[ty5486]

DeadGeneration:
I understand what you're saying, but I've only been in the Navy for 12 years. I've seen both sides of the house as far as paygrade goes but the fact remains that in that rather brief timeframe I've seen discipline and motivation (on the whole) decline, in some cases dramatically. I continue to blame initial training, as well as the push to be "kinder and gentler."

[Thunderhorse19]

All of you have valid points but i think the issue starts way before the military and jsut continues on.

I remember when I was afraid of doing something wrong because I would catch a beating from my parents or do something against the law for fear of getting locked up...these fears no longer exist. As said above parents are no longer parents ..they are buddies and that just simply doesnt work when it comes down to discipline. If a person can get away with it once then they will think they can do it every time.

The lack of respect is because they dont care. They did it once and now they know that they can get away with it and nothing will happen...or at the most they will get a stern talking and maybe some extra duties....in their minds though they win because no matter what the senior official did they didnt give in and obey...a small victory to them but one that fuels their fire to keep on doing the wrong thing. Physical discipline at one point in time did help this problem but it has slowly become more abandoned that it wouldnt help out anymore now than paperwork does....

We are in a tail spin going down and something needs to be done. It needs to start with people taking some ownership of what they are doing and what they are tasked to do...we need to stop this idea that everything should be given to us and that you are my equal...its not the case and it never will be. This young generation needs to leaern that it isnt "the govts. fault" and take their heads out of their 3rd point of contact and start to work for what they want...they need to grow up and realize that in this world you work for what you want. suck it up and drive on.

I strongly agree with the OP. As a retired Army officer and a college professor, I see the lack of discipline and lack of values everyday at US Strategic Command, Offutt AFB and in the classroom. In an average of 40 students per class, I might have one military veteran in attendance. Their non-parenting breeder 'Buddies' help them enroll in college, which was unheard of in past generations, when college students were considered adults. Today it appears that going to college is just High School part two. None of them know how to read or comprehend anything other than what someone told them or what is on the internet. None of them watch the news or stay up on current events. I have to motivate them constantly or they'll fail. They have NO self-motivation. I attended a seminar recently on the new generation of youth, and the speaker thought the kids of today were the 'Hero' generation; I have not made up my mind yet. I still try daily to stimulate and motivate the future leaders of tommorrow. But it is very hard, when they have NO discipline, ethics or values.

[SGT Nolan]

Holy smoke Batman, an on-topic post!

I think this is a cycle...my generation (which is currently 16-28, I'd guess) is one of the most undisciplined, useless little punks in the history of the world. The sense of self-entitlement is amazing, and like you say, we have no pride.

What I don't believe is that it is the first time this has happened in history. Everything is cyclical, and eventually things will pop back into a more harsh environment in which we raise chidlren, which will result in a superior adult class. Not surprisingly, the men and women from my generation who grew up with parents who were not afraid to discipline and love their children are the ones who are successful.

I spoke with a teacher recently who said she believes it comes from the way the Baby-Boomers rasied us, and eventually, hopefully, a generation will mature back into a reasonable group of parents.

Hah...I think its safe to say you are hanging around the wrong crowd, dude. I'm 23 and pride myself for having dicipline and a sense of worth to the U.S. Army and my fellow citizens. Just because there are some shit bags, doesnt mean we all are, so how about, instead of bashing an entire generation, you re think that statement. I dont know how your parents raised you or the people around you, but the way you describe this age group is pathetic. Sorry for your bad luck in dealing with shitbags.

[Unregistered]

I read a lot about how the younger generation of military personnel isn't as disciplined and shows less respect to those of senior rank.

I think there are basically two reasons for this:

1. Elimination of physical counseling.

2. America's general elimination of a class-based society.

On point one: There used to be a time where people were put in their place by taking a walk out back or in the forward locker. I know that it went too far too many times. But, it did keep people in line.

On point two: In the ages prior to WWII officers were generally of noble blood. The common soldiers and sailors were generally peasants (for lack of a better word).

Everyone knew their station in life. There were written and unwritten social rules about how to speak, eat and so on. Peasants rarely became officers. The civilian social structure was echoed in the military.

Then WWII came. Millions of Americans from all walks of life (as in all social classes) were thrust into positions that they otherwise wouldn't have had the opportunity to take.

The post WWII era saw a huge change in the social classes of America. As the years go on there becomes very little to separate the rich from the poor. The rich aren't beyond the law anymore. The poor can afford big screen TVs.

So, a poor kid joins the military and sees higher ranking people and thinks "They're no better than I am" and acts like it.

And due to point number one above, not much can be done about it except paperwork and extra duty.

Do you agree?

An interesting point! But the class structure is going to be there, in the military, even in civilian lift. Unless you run your own business, you will have a structure of upper levels of management. The royal and peasants you are what you are and there is no changing it.

The big difference particularly in the military is if you apply yourself you can become one of the managers. A good example that comes to mind is ADM Mike Boorda. Enlisted in the navy and worked his way through the enlisted ranks to E6 then up to CNO.

I think that it is as simple as lack of discipline. I was born in 1958 and went to school during the 60s and 70s.

You had discipline in the schools, if you acted up you went the principal’s office and usually ended up with a paddle. Then the principal would call your parents. You would end up getting another paddling or some other type of punishment at home.

Children in general are not disciplined. The legal system has gone overboard with prosecuting parents for disciplining their children.

[USMC_8156]

Hah...I think its safe to say you are hanging around the wrong crowd, dude. I'm 23 and pride myself for having dicipline and a sense of worth to the U.S. Army and my fellow citizens. Just because there are some shit bags, doesnt mean we all are, so how about, instead of bashing an entire generation, you re think that statement. I dont know how your parents raised you or the people around you, but the way you describe this age group is pathetic. Sorry for your bad luck in dealing with shitbags.

I wasn't referring to people in the Military, for one. I have spoken to a lot of teachers and DI's about the subject (people who see a constant influx) and I get the same response every time. On average, I'm usually pretty dissapointed when I meet someone in the civilian world our age.

[Airmen_regardless_of_Rank]

I will start by saying I am new to the military. I just reached my year enlistment date yesterday actually and have spent a good deal of that time in training. I am twenty years old and have no parents or siblings who have served, I am saying all of this so that you know that I have very little experience with the military.

I just wanted to add my two cents and that is that whether there is a lack of discipline in the military or not compared to the military of the past, in my limited experience for the most part the members serving are still the best that america has to offer and also for the most part are more disciplined then anyone I have ever worked with. I am a reservist, and so I worked active duty in seasoning training for 3 months and was impressed with the level of discipline shown by my active duty counterparts most of the time.

Because I was in seasoning training I moved around to the different sections of my AFSC throughout my time and I can say the level of discipline shown was a direct reflection of the NCO's in charge of the section. So if any NCO's are complaining about how the younger generation is behaving maybe they should take a look at how they run their shop.

[Variable Wind]

Hah...I think its safe to say you are hanging around the wrong crowd, dude. I'm 23 and pride myself for having dicipline and a sense of worth to the U.S. Army and my fellow citizens. Just because there are some shit bags, doesnt mean we all are, so how about, instead of bashing an entire generation, you re think that statement. I dont know how your parents raised you or the people around you, but the way you describe this age group is pathetic. Sorry for your bad luck in dealing with shitbags.

Come on, you are telling me that you dont find yourself as the minority of those around you? Im not talking about most of the military types (though there is one in the Marine section that needs a sound beating) but the civilian world. I think its spilling over into the military side. Sure we do the same crazy stupid stuff that our elders did when they were our age, but I think we are taking things a step further. Its dangerous, you cant even discipline you child in public without fear of being persecuted for abuse and lose your guardianship. It sad but we arent implying that EVERYONE in the generation is this bad.

[pffan021]

I'm not sure how everyone else feels about this, but when I joined the Marine Corps I was disappointed in the inability of our DI's (Not due to their lack of skills or professionalism) to discipline some of the recruits. Not saying that there wasn't some "disciplining" going on behind closed doors, just not to the level I expected. The DI's only "disciplined" the recruits who they thought could handle it. As always there was that 10% who knew that if someone lays a hand on them than all they have to do is report it and somebody would step in. I was always of the opinion that if someone can't handle the physical abuse of a DI, even as miniscual as a smack on the hand or the poking of the chest, than I would not want to be in a foxhole with them. The youth of America is becoming too soft while our foes are being trained to a level that our society will not allow. I'm not saying that members of the military should be beaten when they make a mistake, but if they continue to make the same mistakes that could risk someone's life then maybe they need a punishment stronger than paperwork.

Discipline erodes on new members of the military because they join their units and see the guys who have done their tour and are waiting to get out. Unfortunately, with today's Marine Corps, promotions are given to someone without properly looking at their ability to lead. How is someone who has dropped their pack and counts their days to their EAS going to be a good leader and someone who is supposed to influence the new guys? A lot of people forgot that they signed up for four years, not 2 1/2 years and a tour overseas. It sets a bad example of how members of the military should behave. Now, I am talking about the 10% here and not the majority. Unfortunately, the 10% has a huge impact on the moral and discipline of the Marines around them when they constantly point out the negatives in the military and none of the positives. People begin to only see those downfalls of the organization and it's leaders and none of the good.

Hopefully, as I continue my career in the Marine Corps I will continue to earn the respect and instill discipline in my Marines by leading by example and showing them that discipline in the military still does exist. All I expect of them is to get the job done. Discipline in my eyes is doing what you are told when you are told to do it or pay the consequences. There is an exception to every rule though, and that is if someone under me knows a better way of doing the job, than inform me in a tactful and courteous manner.

[CVal]

I grew up being taught that all people are equal - we all should have the same rights. Do I think that means I don't have to respect officers and NCOs who tell me what to do? Of course not. I do what I'm told to do, wear what I'm told to wear, and go where I'm told to go, whether I want to or not, whether I think the people telling me to do it are idiots or not.

I think it's important for respect to go in both directions, though. Believe it or not, it's easier to get good results from people if you show them that you don't abuse your authority and that you respect them. While they should be following orders and doing what they're told anyway, respect them and they won't only do what they're told, but will go above and beyond that to show that they're deserving of the respect and trust you've placed in them. Those who don't, well, they'll get what they deserve.

I honestly don't think anyone (Chief, General, etc) is any better than any other human being. I believe they've worked hard to get to where they are and have earned certain privileges and authority and should be treated with deference and respect, but that doesn't make them BETTER. Even generals fuck up and we all know this. Their financial situation prior to joining the military does not make them immune to mistakes and growing up poor does not make one a poor leader. Honestly, seeing "one of my own" (someone who was raised poor) become an officer is not going to make me less respectful of that person. If anything, I'd have even more respect for someone that overcame their situation and got an education and became an officer. Good on them - no resentment here.

Very good points, Amber. Respect is a two-way street. As a teacher, I find I get better cooperation when I respect my student and expect it in return. That doesn't mean anything goes. That means I set the example, and I expect them to follow it.

[GMC(SW)]

The Flogging Will Continue Until Moral Improves!!!!

[mfjdspence]

Not to use a very overly abused phrase, but maybe we have too many "mavericks" joining our ranks?;)

[BURAWSKI]

I'm not sure how everyone else feels about this, but when I joined the Marine Corps I was disappointed in the inability of our DI's (Not due to their lack of skills or professionalism) to discipline some of the recruits. Not saying that there wasn't some "disciplining" going on behind closed doors, just not to the level I expected. The DI's only "disciplined" the recruits who they thought could handle it. As always there was that 10% who knew that if someone lays a hand on them than all they have to do is report it and somebody would step in. I was always of the opinion that if someone can't handle the physical abuse of a DI, even as miniscual as a smack on the hand or the poking of the chest, than I would not want to be in a foxhole with them. The youth of America is becoming too soft while our foes are being trained to a level that our society will not allow. I'm not saying that members of the military should be beaten when they make a mistake, but if they continue to make the same mistakes that could risk someone's life then maybe they need a punishment stronger than paperwork.

Discipline erodes on new members of the military because they join their units and see the guys who have done their tour and are waiting to get out. Unfortunately, with today's Marine Corps, promotions are given to someone without properly looking at their ability to lead. How is someone who has dropped their pack and counts their days to their EAS going to be a good leader and someone who is supposed to influence the new guys? A lot of people forgot that they signed up for four years, not 2 1/2 years and a tour overseas. It sets a bad example of how members of the military should behave. Now, I am talking about the 10% here and not the majority. Unfortunately, the 10% has a huge impact on the moral and discipline of the Marines around them when they constantly point out the negatives in the military and none of the positives. People begin to only see those downfalls of the organization and it's leaders and none of the good.

Hopefully, as I continue my career in the Marine Corps I will continue to earn the respect and instill discipline in my Marines by leading by example and showing them that discipline in the military still does exist. All I expect of them is to get the job done. Discipline in my eyes is doing what you are told when you are told to do it or pay the consequences. There is an exception to every rule though, and that is if someone under me knows a better way of doing the job, than inform me in a tactful and courteous manner.


I remember watching the movie "Full Metal Jacket" and thinking that there were some things that maybe were a little out of hand. Although I agree with you that there should be more discipline especially in boot camp. This is just not happening today. I don't see it changing back either. Although I am a bit of a pessimist anyway.

[E-4]

Man I can't believe some of the stuff I've read here. Today's militray is awesome, and so was yesterday's. We get better everyday, yes we do have some real idiots that need discipline. Do i wanna take them out back and give it to them physicaly no, i'd rather just discharge them. I have a few friends who have left and thinking of leaving because they work they're asses off and get no credit for it. yet airman snuffy over there get talked to and encouraged and occasionaly less work because their NCOs know they aren't dependable. Thus unmotivating the ones who do work they're asses off and only see the additional work of their peers as a reward.

As far as being disrespectful, I think there is a laguage/culture barrier that seperates some of us younguns from the older members of the service. I actually did just call me NCO dude a few minutes ago. Does that mean I don't respect him HELL NO!!! I defintely respect him I hope to be as good as he has. He has an amazing work ethic. How can I have anything but respect for someone who makes E-7 in 8 yrs. Not so easy in today's Airforce. I hope he makes E-9. Now do i walk around and call my Commander "Dude" ......uh NO!!!! (there are some lines you just don't even go near). However I do enjoy the casual did you see the game conversation with my O-3 (sorry but he's only a few years older than me)

There isn't a discipline problem in my opinion, a motivational problem i think is more the issue. Can you blame us have you seen the News lately (we watch it more than you think). When we ask questions we aren't trying to be disrespectful we're just trying to understand and become more knolwedgable. We are a generation that looks for answers and asks why and if YOU leaders, NCOs, Commaders, don't give it to us we will turn else where to get it and most likely get the WRONG answers. I understand there are little to no room for questions on the actual field of battle and if you do recieve whys and how comes in the middle of a fire fight by all means feel free to give wall to wall counseling (if you don't we will). But off the field is it really too hard to answer our questions???

If i'm completely off track and am part of the DOWN FALL of the GREATEST military force on EARTH. Please by all means let me know and I will do my best to fix my disrepcetful attitude.

[jsnchrry]

is todays military really that undisciplined? Shit todays military cant do anything. You could get away with a lot more back in the day. It seems to me we have one of the most professional forces in world.

[ringjamesa]

I tend to agree that today's military is just as disiplined as any U.S. Military in the past. At times do I feel that the "younger generation" is a bunch of disrespectful slackers? Of course but when viewed as individuals, most of them are really pretty good at this whole military thing. It is easy for those of us that have been in for a while and even easier for those that have already retired/separated to say that the current crop of recruits don't meet the same standards that they met but it is important to consider that todays challanges are different. Why would you use coproral punishment to "teach" a lesson to someone that is wanted for their techical expertise? I agree that paperwork probably isn't the answer but training may be-ensure the same mistake doesn't happen again.

[Unregistered]

The Flogging Will Continue Until Moral Improves!!!!

See like I said a lack of discipline. Seriously there have been a few good remarks made throughout the blog on this subject.

RHIP Rank has its privileges, but along with the privileges come responsibility. Responsibility, to the young men and women under you, to train them, teach them how to lead others. And mostly how to follow the orders of superiors, because orders are not always going to be given in a setting where they can be questioned or second guessed.
It’s a continuous job in the military particularly, training. As you move up in rank you become more and more responsible for training those under you. They are your replacements. The more senior you become, the more people you will have under you that you are responsible for their training.

Respect is a two way street. This is a very true statement, but common courtesy should be afforded to all senior personnel. Military courtesy must be afforded to all superiors. In most cases that senior person has spent years earning their position and rank. Through common courtesy and doing your job properly you will earn their respect. This doesn’t have to be a long drawn out process. Being professional in your appearance, your work ethic, and showing common courtesy will work wonders.

[Unregistered]

Why do you have to bring in the "rich white male" into this? Your point isn't a point taken, as it has no bearing of intelligence or analytical thought. Your letting emotions take hold of your thought processes and it tells me you are not well fit intellectually.

Take a look at the original post, its not just an assumption that this guy is advocating the "good ol boy system." but something tells me you already knew that..

[Unregistered]

[QUOTE=kojack;140843] So, your divorced buddy is working and taking care of the kids he FATHERED. How does that make him exceptional? That is what I EXPECT him to do. You probably think him as a victim becuase society "made" him a single daddy.... The Jews are Gods people and that is the way I was raised. I thought libs didnt like Jews for the Libs love of Islam and Islamic terrorists. And in your bizarre world, America, the most generous nation in history, causes every problem in the solar system. Like Michelle Obama, there just isnt anything to be proud of in America.... You're sad.[/QUOTE ]

No but most of your redneck brethren who scream they love Jesus are quick to bash the Jews as being "Liberal scum" and a bunch of other inappropriate phrases I won't use here. I was trying to illustrate a point that your stereotype of Liberals was false since not everyone meets your description as you originally pointed out.

Just remember that every time you point a finger at someone, you have three fingers pointing back at yourself. While America has done many things in the name of righteousness, many more things have been done to discredit the goodness and sacrifices that have been made. That's not to say that there aren't any other countries out there that don't have dirt on their hands, but if we're supposed to be the "world's leader" then we should be above reproach, bottom line. I've seen enough of the world to know than to trust everything that Fox News or CNN throws my way, and that every time a politician lies, their lips move.

Please get some enlightenment as well as tolerance. Start out with the US Constitution and Bill of Rights, and then read what your Jesus Christ taught about humility in your Holy Bible. I would also recommend some Buddhist philosophy, but that might be too much for you to handle since it's "un-American"...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Machine, just when you were starting to make sense you HAD to throw the Christian to the lions... why? Every religion and sect has its downfalls, but Christianity has had its share of positive impacts on this world and our country.

Don't just jump on the "lets bash jesus freaks" bandwagon. Use logical arguement.

[WillsPowers]

How can we have an effective disciplined military when we have a Air Force leadership that has run amuck?

1) Jill Metzger!!! Is this your example of "integrity first"?? No answers, stonewalling, hush money, snuck out the back door, no story here, fraudulent pension, 100's of mllions wasted in higher base payments, wild goose chase investigations, no answers despite the best criminal investigators in the world, Jill's "close" relationships with flag officers, on an on and on!!!

2) Col. Murphy of the Judiciary.Is this another of your "integrity first" examples? He lies and his buddies in the Judiciary say "all is well, no accountability required, so what if he lied and doesn't have a license to practice law!"----Splain that, leadership! You make me sick and all of you who go along should be purged from the ranks too!

4) General "rubber stamp the convictions while I commit the same offenses" Fiscus -----again, from the USAF Judiciary!......


numerous more examples of "disciplining" the leadership but enough is enough. Congress needs to act and soon. The cancer is killing the patient!

[Unregistered]

Good old days? You mean the days when pot smoking and drunk driving were tolerated in the AF?

Wall-to-wall counseling, in my opinion, are for people too lazy to be real leaders. I'm sure there is the exception, but it is usually not necessary. I've worked for plenty senior NCOs and officers who earned their respect through hard work and dedication. I've tried to be like them and years later, I find that I have little to no problem earning the respect of my subordinates.

I vividly remember my airmen days. I remember a handful of NCOs that would say, "Airmen these days don't have any respect for their leaders." The only ones that said it were the NCOs we considered dirtbags. I wanted to answer, "Yes, we respect our leaders. We just don't respect you."

[Unregistered]

This has nothing to do with a socioeconomic status, but rather a breakdown of the discipline system in the military. Like you said before, In the "old" days you would take some one out back and teach them respect and discipline. Now you can't touch a single hair on anyone. High ranking officers, SNCOs, Chiefs, First classes are afraid of teaching someone respect or discipline in fear of getting in trouble for having done so. I'm an E-6 in the Navy, and to be honest. I'd rather not deal with the BS, I'd have to go through if that person complained to the EO or went to the Legal officer. You just can't discipline anybody anymore, too much red tape.

[Big Red T]

True, but what I outlined below shows what you could see as the decline of the American values that made us great in the past.


.

How can you even say that? America is still a great country, and our values make us so. 50 years ago, black Americans weren't even allowed to sit at the front of the bus. They were refused service in many places, and were treated poorly because of the color of their skin. In America today, they, as well as every other American citizen, no matter race religion or ethnic background, has no more or less rights than the next person. So in my opinion the values of today have come along way from the values of the past.

[Big Red T]

Also, if your concerned with the way today's youth are being raised, you should take a look at their role models. Paris Hilton, Brittany Spears, and other countless other celebrities/icons whom today's children worship. Children see these people all over the media, and all it shows them is that it is acceptable to live this kind of lifestyle. That as long as your rich enough, attractive enough, or famous enough that there is no reason to act like a responsible productive member of society. How is it that hip hop artist, multi-time felons, can get charged with possession of controlled substances and armed robbery or purchasing of illegal weapons and only get a slap on the wrist or a half ass jail sentence. How is it that these so called "icons" can go out into this world and act the way they do? My question is when did that kind of behavior become acceptable? I know id rather swallow a bullet than to watch my child grow up to become something like that. I think being in the military, as it always has been, shows true patriotism and the true American spirit. Don't blame today's lack of respect on the fall of values, blame it on the rise of icons.

[Unregistered]

RESPECT.............are you f@#$ing kidding me, there are very few senior enlisted and officers that I respect, just because you have anchors or a little bit of brass on your collars, you think that we have treat you like you are gods gift to the military. Yeah right, see that is the problem, we have people who walk around, that abuse there rank.........CMO 10's Master Chief Campbell is a great example, yeah I dimed his fat ass out. Has nothing better to do in life, except make peoples like hell. As far as CMO 10's chain of command goes, the majority of them walk around like there sh!t don't stink. Look at the reenlistment rate of that command, look at all the projected losses...........If senior military people would treat junior people with RESPECT, then they WOULD get it in return. I am speaking from the CMO aspect, as far as other branches or other duty stations, I can not speak for. RESPECT has to go up and down the chain, you can't demand respect. Like someone said before, RESPECT is earned, and disipline is taught. Just to let anyone know, that plans on commenting on this, I really don't care what you have to say. You know it is the truth about today's military, and the disrepect that senior military members give to there junior shipmates. I think every power trippin person needs to take a good look in the mirror before they decide to leave the military, cause the attitude they have in the military will not be tolerated in civilian life.

[NAVYDOC4THMARDIV]

I guess he is suggesting we bring back hard tack and "the lash"... I'll tell you the difference about the generations... It has nothing to do with the generation of people, it has to do with the generation of "leaders". Back in WW2 you had Nimitz, Halsey, Spruance, King,...etc We had the likes of then Capt Arleigh Burke. We had Officers that took risks back then. Let's look at the young Ensign Chester Nimitz when he commanded the USS Decatur... He ran her aground. He got a letter of reprimand. He was also given a second chance. Today, you so much as do anything "against policy", and your career is over. Where did Nimitiz go in his career? He became a Fleet Admiral, and CNO. The result of the "zero defect Navy" is Officers who fail to inspire. Officers who fail to lead with a depth of conviction and integrity. Officers who would throw their people under the keel just to deflect blame of themselves. We have become "corporate". We are no longer a martial organization. We have become a debating team. We have become the great social experiment. We no longer issue orders, we now have to ask if everybody thinks it's ok to procede. No matter how hard they try...Computers will NOT replace practical application of skills learned. We have ceased to be wooden ships and iron men. We are not even iron men and steel ships. What we have become, is brave men and their simulators...

[NAVYDOC4THMARDIV]

I guess he is suggesting we bring back hard tack and "the lash"... I'll tell you the difference about the generations... It has nothing to do with the generation of people, it has to do with the generation of "leaders". Back in WW2 you had Nimitz, Halsey, Spruance, King,...etc We had the likes of then Capt Arleigh Burke. We had Officers that took risks back then. Let's look at the young Ensign Chester Nimitz when he commanded the USS Decatur... He ran her aground. He got a letter of reprimand. He was also given a second chance. Today, you so much as do anything "against policy", and your career is over. Where did Nimitiz go in his career? He became a Fleet Admiral, and CNO. The result of the "zero defect Navy" is Officers who fail to inspire. Officers who fail to lead with a depth of conviction and integrity. Officers who would throw their people under the keel just to deflect blame of themselves. We have become "corporate". We are no longer a martial organization. We have become a debating team. We have become the great social experiment. We no longer issue orders, we now have to ask if everybody thinks it's ok to procede. No matter how hard they try...Computers will NOT replace practical application of skills learned. We have ceased to be wooden ships and iron men. We are not even iron men and steel ships. What we have become, are brave men and their simulators...

[Kathie]

My daughter is in the National Guard and has recently been through BCT and AIT. I can see a vast difference in her demeanor. She is more respectful, responsible, disciplined, and thinks on a deeper level than before she left (she is 26). I am sure that her training may not have been as strict or rigid as in the past but I think that is partly due to the level of education that entrants have today. One can not just say "do as I say, not as I do". People are able to think for themsleves because of their education and use their reasoning skills to understand the importance of discipline, integity, respect, etc. in being a soldier. Also, in the past few generations, people were drafted in service and many of them did not want to even be there much less wanting to be turned into soldier material. Now we are training men and women who want to serve their country and know their responsibility and the importance of their mission. Therefore, today's soldier may not have "behind the woodshed" type of training but I would not say that they are not disciplined.
However, I am an elementary school teacher and I must say that it is very challenging working with today's youth. Many of them show little repect for authority. They will be defiant, refuse to work or follow directions, talk back, and almost dare you to discipline them. In most of these cases I find that the root of the problem comes from the home. Those are the very students whose parents call you out every time you discipline or punish their child for inappropriate or disrespectful behavior. You are picking on their child. There is no support from home and the kids know it. The parents don't show respect for the teachers and therefore the students knows they don't have to, either. Their attitude is 'I'll just go home and tell on you...I'll get even.' And, sure enough, the next thing I know I'm getting a call from an irate parent. I have even had a parent tell me I did not have their permission to discipline their child and they forbid me to do so again.
With this in the background of some people it is no wonder they enter the military with a different mindset than in the past.:)

[Unregistered]

I think it has to with the way people raise thier kids. I even see little disrespectful dependent kids running around posts and bases. I cant even discipline my kid in public any more. Too many troops have turned into dorm lawyers.

[Unregistered]

I think the military has gotten weaker the five years I've been in. Its because the Sgts now don't have full control. If you try to punish someone, you might end up getting in trouble. Also, SNCO's don't treat NCO's with enough respect in doing there job. The discipline is still there though.

[Unregistered]

[QUOTE=MACHINE666;141158]

Machine, just when you were starting to make sense you HAD to throw the Christian to the lions... why? Every religion and sect has its downfalls, but Christianity has had its share of positive impacts on this world and our country.

Don't just jump on the "lets bash jesus freaks" bandwagon. Use logical arguement.

yeah how dare you bash the jesus freaks who make racial remarks, what were you thinking!!

[DeadGeneration]

My daughter is in the National Guard and has recently been through BCT and AIT. I can see a vast difference in her demeanor. She is more respectful, responsible, disciplined, and thinks on a deeper level than before she left (she is 26). I am sure that her training may not have been as strict or rigid as in the past but I think that is partly due to the level of education that entrants have today. One can not just say "do as I say, not as I do". People are able to think for themsleves because of their education and use their reasoning skills to understand the importance of discipline, integity, respect, etc. in being a soldier. Also, in the past few generations, people were drafted in service and many of them did not want to even be there much less wanting to be turned into soldier material. Now we are training men and women who want to serve their country and know their responsibility and the importance of their mission. Therefore, today's soldier may not have "behind the woodshed" type of training but I would not say that they are not disciplined.
However, I am an elementary school teacher and I must say that it is very challenging working with today's youth. Many of them show little repect for authority. They will be defiant, refuse to work or follow directions, talk back, and almost dare you to discipline them. In most of these cases I find that the root of the problem comes from the home. Those are the very students whose parents call you out every time you discipline or punish their child for inappropriate or disrespectful behavior. You are picking on their child. There is no support from home and the kids know it. The parents don't show respect for the teachers and therefore the students knows they don't have to, either. Their attitude is 'I'll just go home and tell on you...I'll get even.' And, sure enough, the next thing I know I'm getting a call from an irate parent. I have even had a parent tell me I did not have their permission to discipline their child and they forbid me to do so again.
With this in the background of some people it is no wonder they enter the military with a different mindset than in the past.:)

Do not mistake appearance for reality. We pretty much learn how to put on a "good show" and convince our audience that we're golden. It's behind closed doors or with certain company that we can just as easily go back to "who we were before".

[Unregistered]

Boy, the good old days when rich white males could beat on the rest of us...

Are you serious?

Uh..very serious. Did you sleep through the last 2000 years? I agree about the closure of the social gap but disagree that physical counceling was what kept everyone in line. I think that officers are still instilled with a bit of the "nobility" training in OCS/Acadamy(wherever), and it really ticks some people off that these officers still walk around with an air of entitlement. As far as enlisted breakdown in dicipline....well that goes just as far as the ranks above let it. I may not be able to jerk a knot in every troop that comes through the door but I can still make his/her life a living hell until they crack or give me enough ammo to get them out.

[GMC(SW)]

I believe it all boils down to the leadership of any person, if the leader is weak so will his people around him, and with that comes the problems , but of course this is not 100%. Bottom line you reap what you sow. For those of you that say there is a problem i challenge you to come up with a viable working solution, and with that challenge i will give you some help, some of you might remember the movie "THE FIRST 72 HOURS" in my opinion it was a great look into our day to day operations and i feel it was right on target. So i encourage you to watch this movie and develop a game plan to correct yourself and help others.

[CrimLaw]

So, you're saying that if you come into the Army as enlisted, you tend to be from a "poorer background"? Hmm...I am going to have to disagree with you there. I actually come from a very wealthy background, I could have easily gone to a top-notch college first and come into the military as an officer. However, I decided I wanted to take my time figuring out what I wanted to do with my life, and I came in as enlisted. Many people in my enlisted MOS are actually attorneys, but they come in as E-4s to have their law school debt paid off. Plus, I have met plenty of idiots who don't have a clue as to what is going on, and they happen to be a "noble officer". ;0)

[Shrike]

Uh..very serious. Did you sleep through the last 2000 years?
I think you completely missed Measure Man's point.

[Measure Man]

I think you completely missed Measure Man's point.

wait...there was a draft?

[Bradend2008]

I think there are a number of problems that contribute to the break down of disipline in the military. Lower recruiting standards, higher ops tempo, do more with less, to name a few of the problems. I am not here to judge or give some grand explaination of why. I have noticed this dip in disipline in my short 9 years in the military. I think the challenge is to keep an open mind to outside opnions, not all troops think or act the same. I have read on previous posts on this topic and wow some people have thought really deep on this. Nobles, peons, even bringing in the race card. All of this doesnt matter we all signed up and we all have to honor the oath we took. This is my brief two cents. Have a good day everyone!

[ty5486]

I think you are correct that not all troops think the same, and to a point that's part of the problem. Part of the job of BCT is to break down the civilian and build up the military member. The fact that we have so many "independant thinkers" points to the failure of BCT to do its job. There shouldn't be so many people asking "why" the second they come on the boat, but there are. Sure, the parents aren't helping, neither is society, but BCT is there for a reason, and I think it's failing some of the people.

[Unregistered]

Ha, the "younger generation" is exactly like my generation. My peer group when I was an E1-E3 had no respect for SNCOs or Officers. Now that I'm a SNCO, I can hardly expect the nature of youth to change.

Discipline is taught, respect is earned.

Good point nohero, the difference truly lies in the caliber of leaders, not the younger generation. A lack of respect for anyone often tends to fill as causation for enlistment... no matter what generation we're dealing with.

[Unregistered]

Just wait until DDG 1000 comes out. All personnel will have to clean their OWN 4-man staterooms - officers and enlisted alike. No FSA's. Do your own laundry. Gone are the days of "The evening meal is now being served in the Wardroom.". Buffet style will be the norm. Most officers will understand this but some will tantrum.

GMC(SW) ret

[weazlefuzion]

I agree that discipline comes directly from how you instruct, mentor, and discipline your own troops. The problem now is the power that NCOs have (especially in the Navy and Air Force) is being eroded with all this "feel good" happy horse shit. NCOs are now resorted to using paperwork, which teaches nothing, or going to an officer above them. Regulations regarding NCOs power need to be interpreted as they were years ago, and the tools that NCOs had (disciplinary PT or other more imaginative things) need to be returned to the discretion of the NCO.

That whole "discretion of the NCO" brings out a few problems however, problems from how we train our NCOs and lower enlisted. The Marine Corps is the only service which, by doctrine, requires all members from E-1 to E-9 not only to follow, but to lead. This needs to be enforced and promotions need to be based upon the merit that comes with leading, not with a PME test and brownie points with the Col. Additionally, I'm sure giving NCO status to qualified E-4s in all services would help. Currently the AF doesn't have an E-4 NCO and the Army has SPC and CPL. In the AF, much is based upon your technical abilities in your job due to the nature of the service. This means you should get a pay raise, but it does not mean you are a good leader. Maybe we should return to the technician ranks of the WWII Army, where as an E-6, you may not be an NCO and therefore followed orders from the E-4 NCO.

[USMC_8156]

Currently the AF doesn't have an E-4 NCO and the Army has SPC and CPL. In the AF, much is based upon your technical abilities in your job due to the nature of the service. This means you should get a pay raise, but it does not mean you are a good leader. Maybe we should return to the technician ranks of the WWII Army, where as an E-6, you may not be an NCO and therefore followed orders from the E-4 NCO.

Or the other services who actually have leadership and military discipline present could just take your aircraft and responsibilities.

Just sayin.

[weazlefuzion]

Or the other services who actually have leadership and military discipline present could just take your aircraft and responsibilities.

Just sayin.

If technology was at the stage it was 20 years ago today, I'd agree, but not the Air Force is taking on a slightly different mission (other than the additional ground support to Army) regarding cyberspace and space. I don't believe we need a separate Air Force anymore, at least in it's current state. It was a great idea and helped develop the undeniable abilities of air power in war, but I think air power is best delegated down the unit. You can see that in the Army where even a company commander may get his own aircraft or UAV. I think this massive confusion of such high-level doctrine is contributing to the discipline issues we see in the Air Force. We just don't know what we're supposed to be doing anymore, at least from the top-down perspective.

[USMC_8156]

If technology was at the stage it was 20 years ago today, I'd agree, but not the Air Force is taking on a slightly different mission (other than the additional ground support to Army) regarding cyberspace and space. I don't believe we need a separate Air Force anymore, at least in it's current state. It was a great idea and helped develop the undeniable abilities of air power in war, but I think air power is best delegated down the unit. You can see that in the Army where even a company commander may get his own aircraft or UAV. I think this massive confusion of such high-level doctrine is contributing to the discipline issues we see in the Air Force. We just don't know what we're supposed to be doing anymore, at least from the top-down perspective.

That's a good point about CC's getting aircraft and UAV. Especially in the kind of war we're fighting now, we need that equipment pronto on the double in most situations where it is effective.

Not to hijack the thread, but couldn't and shouldn't space be handled by the Navy? Honestly, it has always made more sense to me. The space environment seems more like a Navy one from what I've seen (Talking about shows about space stations etc.). Long boring stretches of drifting in nothingness...sounds like being on ship.

As for cyberspace...really? You really don't think the NSA is where this responsibilities lies? And that they don't already have the capability to both attack and defend? What is the USAF going to do, start pinging Russian forces in South Ossetia before they go away? We already have pretty good electronic warfare in the other services.

Once again, I don't mean to attack you in any way. Just sayin.

[weazlefuzion]

That's a good point about CC's getting aircraft and UAV. Especially in the kind of war we're fighting now, we need that equipment pronto on the double in most situations where it is effective.

Not to hijack the thread, but couldn't and shouldn't space be handled by the Navy? Honestly, it has always made more sense to me. The space environment seems more like a Navy one from what I've seen (Talking about shows about space stations etc.). Long boring stretches of drifting in nothingness...sounds like being on ship.

As for cyberspace...really? You really don't think the NSA is where this responsibilities lies? And that they don't already have the capability to both attack and defend? What is the USAF going to do, start pinging Russian forces in South Ossetia before they go away? We already have pretty good electronic warfare in the other services.

Once again, I don't mean to attack you in any way. Just sayin.

I also don't want to hijack the thread, and this will be the last bit of this I talk about, but I agree, kinda. In the distant future, when we're fighting over asteroid belts and planets instead of rivers and islands, then I'd agree that the Navy should take up space. Currently though, the Navy has too wide a mission-base on Earth and shouldn't be bothered with space. Space is still considered "up there", so it should just stay AF and NASA for now. As far as cyberspace goes, I agree, but the DoD already made the mistake of letting the AF pick up all the technology sects in the military, so until there's a radical change at the DoD, that won't change and if it does change it should be specifically "to move cyberspace out of the AF" and not a result of dismantling the AF as a service... that would lead to more confusion and bureaucracy.


Sorry about hijacking the thread, this is just a tangent because I believe the lack of mission direction is leading to a breakdown of leadership at the highest levels, which in turn contributes to failures at the NCO level. (Nice save, huh?)

[TENNESSEE OBSERVER]

In 1966 I entered the U.S. NAVY and served aboard U.S.S. HANSON DD-832 and COMSERVPAC Pear Harbor, from there, NAVY Reserve till 1977 enlisted TN ANG 228th CCSQ, Retired after electionof CIC Clinton.

In 1966 we took the oath to "Defend the Constitution of the United States of America against enemies foreign and domestic.
At that time we had a clear understanding of both enemies. And thought we could recognize either or both.

Today the news is sprinkled with reports of service personnal going to prison for doing what they are trained to do. And to make matters more complicated, thanks to the; ACLU, EEOC, the military is under the gun to accept what otherwise would be called, ENEMY DOMESTIC.

In Operation Desert Shield, I DID NOT FEEL GOOD thinking I may have to concentrate on ENEMY DOMESTIC before I could, if still alive, FOCUS ON ENEMY FOREIGN!

While on Operation Sea Dragon off the coast of Viet Nam it never occured to me the day would come that my ship mate or bunker mate could be THE ENEMY DOMESTIC!, and that I would ever be motovated to speak up as I just have!. FROM MY HEART!!!

May God Almighty bless and protect our troups on the land in the air and on the sea, AMEN.

Respectfully,
Gary W. CANANT, TSGT Retired

[CVal]

Hi TO, welcome. http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k246/Bigguydw/Smileys/Wlcm.gif

[MACHINE666]

[QUOTE=MACHINE666;141158]

Machine, just when you were starting to make sense you HAD to throw the Christian to the lions... why? Every religion and sect has its downfalls, but Christianity has had its share of positive impacts on this world and our country.

Don't just jump on the "lets bash jesus freaks" bandwagon. Use logical arguement.

No...re-read the post and then see what I was saying at the bottom of it...if anything I am telling the so-called "Christians" who parrot racist, ignorant, and otherwise inappropriate comments, to take a hint and see what their savior has to say about such actions. If it offends the readers here, then GOOD. Chances are it means I struck a nerve and you've got some guilty conscience going on about what I'm saying.

I guess that whole "What Would Jesus Do?" fad that died out 10 years ago didn't hit its intended audience after all....

[Unregistered]

These critiques are always made of the newest generation, in each and every era.

[ty5486]

Does that mean they are wrong?

[weazlefuzion]

Does that mean they are wrong?

It doesn't mean they're wrong, but what it does mean is that when the military didn't have these discipline issues ("breakdown" implies quality has decreased) they were able to deal with the generation through proper training. It seems that the training is no longer sufficient enough to change a person like it's supposed to. The military has reached the maximum in 'fuzzy rainbows n shit' when it comes to training and it needs to scale back to improve not the quality of the recruit, but the quality of the resulting servicemember after the recruit has been trained.

[Air Force Captian]

I read a few of the posts here and it is a very intresting topic. I believe that their exists and will continue to be a lack of disipline in the military because each and every person is responsible for their own actions. We in western society tend to place blamse outside of ourselves not recognizing that we often critize in others our very own faults. I think for everyone that posted on this sight it would be useful to ask youself if you have ever been disobeident. I belive all of have at somepoint. We must each individually recognize our responsibility to each other and then exercise that responsibility by not always going along with the crowd and by doing what is right even others are doing what is wrong. If technology actaully had a positive moral effect on behavoir then I believe that we should be seeing that effect. In reality technology has much more selfish effect because now we can have whatever we want whenever we want it. Our brains are like computers in that if we put selfishness, lack of disipline in we can not expect to get selflessness and dicipline out. Training can do some of that for a short time but eventaully it is up to each one of us as individual responsible for the freedom of America to make choices that refect our sense of service to the country.

[JV3]

I thought this thread and the replies were interesting. A good mixture of intelligence and ignorance. One thing I would like to address is all of the talk about officers. To be fair I will point out right off that I am an officer. Now that that is on the table: very few officers believe they are better that enlisted troops; most officers are very thankful to the enlisted personnel; most officers try to look out for enlisted troops; most officers know they will not be respected automatically; and most officers respect enlisted troops.

That said, of course their is the occassional jerk officer who acts like he better than everybody else. Is there not SNCOs like this as well? Please do not let these officers ruin your opinion of all officers, give everyone a fair shot to earn your respect.

Thanks!

[weazlefuzion]

I thought this thread and the replies were interesting. A good mixture of intelligence and ignorance. One thing I would like to address is all of the talk about officers. To be fair I will point out right off that I am an officer. Now that that is on the table: very few officers believe they are better that enlisted troops; most officers are very thankful to the enlisted personnel; most officers try to look out for enlisted troops; most officers know they will not be respected automatically; and most officers respect enlisted troops.

That said, of course their is the occassional jerk officer who acts like he better than everybody else. Is there not SNCOs like this as well? Please do not let these officers ruin your opinion of all officers, give everyone a fair shot to earn your respect.

Thanks!

Those 'occasional' jerk officers are more common than you may think. As an officer, you just don't see it as often when the proverbial shit rolls down hill onto our unsuspecting heads. I've been on a base full of ASBC LTs; I've been both a student and staff member at the Air Force Academy, and I've met plenty of ROTC cadets and grads as well. There is an aura of elitism no matter how you look at it. To an extent, I agree with some of it, however, because that's how officers retain power with even the most apathetic and undisciplined troops.

Also, I haven't seen much talk about everyday officers here, so don't get worried. If you read this entire thread, and a couple other related ones on the forum, you'll see that most of the blame is put on the very top leadership who write policy and just so happen to be officers, and the on the NCO Corps for a lack of responsibility.

[VietNam Era Navy Corpsman]

Discipline is taught, respect is earned. AND- the enlisted man you treat harshly today may well be the man who drags your hind parts from the wreckage of your aircraft when you crash, or your humvee when an IED goes off under it, or out of the line of fire when your unit is caught in a firefight…

Most men (and women) will react properly when accorded due respect of their person and the skills they bring to the game. Those who won’t need more in the way of psychological help than any blanket party will ever impart.

[Unregistered]

Ok, first off point number one has a little merit to it, but you cannot have clueless individuals admistering careless hazing. Your second point is the reason there is a lack of discipline. Before you are able to administer "Wall to Wall" counseling you need to have first earned the proper respect of your troops and secondly proven yourself by taking care of your troops and making sure you treat them as you would your own family... Hence the term Brother/Family in Arms.

As for point number two, enlisted being peasants and a class based society and noblility and alll of that yadda yadda yadda. Any officer that looks at his enlisted forces in the manner you describe, does not deserve respect and is not fit to lead ants to honey.

Lastly, officers that seem to think they are above enlisted and try to alienate themselves from enlisted has should not have the right to administer any punishment on the enlisted ranks PERIOD.

The breakdown in discipline may come from the value our society and culture as a whole places on the military in general, not becuase some tool box that was picked on in high school is not allowed to get revenge because of authority vested in him due to taking a few tests and or brown nosing.

[Unregistered]

Discipline is taught, respect is earned. AND- the enlisted man you treat harshly today may well be the man who drags your hind parts from the wreckage of your aircraft when you crash, or your humvee when an IED goes off under it, or out of the line of fire when your unit is caught in a firefight…

Most men (and women) will react properly when accorded due respect of their person and the skills they bring to the game. Those who won’t need more in the way of psychological help than any blanket party will ever impart.

Well put, as only a combat proven warrior can put it.

[CMSBROWN]

Discpline starts at home !! Respect is learned thru discpline !! First off, teaching discpline to a child growing up today will land you in jail with felony charges, thats if it was given out or being administered the old fashion way. The problem lays within our political system and our society. Our government controls every aspect of raising up a child in a discplined and respectful way. This society that we live in finds no fault within its self. We are so hung up on pointing fingers at others to blame for our own mistakes. We live in such a gray area of life where we find no wrong with anything. We allow things to go on with out disrupting its progression into something more catastrophic. I was raised up and taught that there was NO gray area. It was either black or white. Meaning right or wrong !! Then I went into the service and taught the same values as well. Gray areas kill,destroy,mame,and breakdown what is right. I can remember back in 1990 when discpline in basic training was changed. I look back at that now and see the breakdown that was caused by one Chaplian who went to the top to get it changed. Then the media comes along and thinks that life in the MILITARY should be the same as in the civilian world NOT !! But our poloticians allowed this breakdown to filter in, what a shame. When did the civilian population dicide it was there call on how the military should be ran ? I think the military should get back the old school basics of training,discpline,and teaching self respec!! But who am I to think this way, I am a nobody an old soldier who served and respected and still contain those values. We need change, NOT Obamas or McCain's change but the whole political system needs to be stripped and cleaned out and replaced with people that dont belive in the Gray line, but who are in touch with what is respectable and right. Not for self gain but gain for all.

10th Mountianman 1986-1991 2/22nd inf.

Outstanding! Very well put. HOOAH!

I spent 10 years in the Army before crossing into the Blue with going on 27 years. And let me tell you I have seen many Officers and NCO's get relieved of command or duty for not disciplining their troops. I have seen troops get post assignments and they tell the NCO they are not working that post. I was like WTFO! That NCO caved to that troops comment. I was like WTFO again. I have seen 155mm howitzer rounds explode 50 meters in front of a gun position because the section chief didn’t check the quadrant. I have seen accidental weapons discharges at clearing barrels because procedures were not followed. A disciplined troop is a happy troop. Why do I say that? It’s because if you are maintaining discipline in your troops they know you care. It’s when you don’t discipline them their performance and standards decline. We are in a military be it Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines were everything is done with task, conditions and standards. If you don’t follow policies and procedures performance faulters, missions fail, people die. Discipline in my opinion is making sure your troops follow the standards period. They follow the orders issued to them. They follow military customs and courtesies, they follow the requirements as outlined in regulations and job standards, they have pride in their appearance by looking sharp everyday, they show up to formation on time, and they don’t talk back when an NCO assigns them a post to man or a task to perform. We have rules and regulations to follow. You or I may not like some of those rules or regulations but you are in the military and are required to follow them. This is not a college campus; this is not a civilian corporation. You are in the military to protect and defend the constitution and the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic. In order to successfully accomplish that you must maintain discipline. Discipline in yourself, discipline in your troops and discipline in the branches of the armed forces. Discipline starts with yourself. If you aren’t disciplined enough to set the example for troops to follow then you do not need to be in the military leading our troops into battle. You as a leader should always correct your troop’s performance right then and there face to face when it is failing if time dictates with corrective action. If you as a leader don’t then their performance will decline even more. I can keep rambling but I won’t. We need to get back to the basics of military discipline. Once we achieve that we will stop losing lives senselessly due to accidents, flying nukes all over god’s green earth because someone didn’t follow procedures, and our military will be a disciplined running organization where we will happily defend the constitution and the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic.

I just returned from Iraq and worked with the 2/22 inf of the 10th MTN....I was very rpoud to serve with them. HOOAH!

[weazlefuzion]

Outstanding! Very well put. HOOAH!

I spent 10 years in the Army before crossing into the Blue with going on 27 years. And let me tell you I have seen many Officers and NCO's get relieved of command or duty for not disciplining their troops. I have seen troops get post assignments and they tell the NCO they are not working that post. I was like WTFO! That NCO caved to that troops comment. I was like WTFO again. I have seen 155mm howitzer rounds explode 50 meters in front of a gun position because the section chief didn’t check the quadrant. I have seen accidental weapons discharges at clearing barrels because procedures were not followed. A disciplined troop is a happy troop. Why do I say that? It’s because if you are maintaining discipline in your troops they know you care. It’s when you don’t discipline them their performance and standards decline. We are in a military be it Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines were everything is done with task, conditions and standards. If you don’t follow policies and procedures performance faulters, missions fail, people die. Discipline in my opinion is making sure your troops follow the standards period. They follow the orders issued to them. They follow military customs and courtesies, they follow the requirements as outlined in regulations and job standards, they have pride in their appearance by looking sharp everyday, they show up to formation on time, and they don’t talk back when an NCO assigns them a post to man or a task to perform. We have rules and regulations to follow. You or I may not like some of those rules or regulations but you are in the military and are required to follow them. This is not a college campus; this is not a civilian corporation. You are in the military to protect and defend the constitution and the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic. In order to successfully accomplish that you must maintain discipline. Discipline in yourself, discipline in your troops and discipline in the branches of the armed forces. Discipline starts with yourself. If you aren’t disciplined enough to set the example for troops to follow then you do not need to be in the military leading our troops into battle. You as a leader should always correct your troop’s performance right then and there face to face when it is failing if time dictates with corrective action. If you as a leader don’t then their performance will decline even more. I can keep rambling but I won’t. We need to get back to the basics of military discipline. Once we achieve that we will stop losing lives senselessly due to accidents, flying nukes all over god’s green earth because someone didn’t follow procedures, and our military will be a disciplined running organization where we will happily defend the constitution and the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic.

I just returned from Iraq and worked with the 2/22 inf of the 10th MTN....I was very rpoud to serve with them. HOOAH!

Bing-fucking-o. I present you... a cookie. Great post. We all agree there has been a breakdown in discipline, and this certainly seems like a plausible explanation. Where he hit a wall is figuring out how to fix it. I have my ideas that some agree with, some don't, but I'm willing to learn more from those who have been around longer. But it's not as simple as "earn respect", "train properly". Those are cop-out answers. We need real solutions. Everyone here has argued about where it comes from, but few have suggested any type of solution.

[CMSBROWN]

Bing-fucking-o. I present you... a cookie. Great post. We all agree there has been a breakdown in discipline, and this certainly seems like a plausible explanation. Where he hit a wall is figuring out how to fix it. I have my ideas that some agree with, some don't, but I'm willing to learn more from those who have been around longer. But it's not as simple as "earn respect", "train properly". Those are cop-out answers. We need real solutions. Everyone here has argued about where it comes from, but few have suggested any type of solution.

The funny thing here sunshine is this generation doesn't want to hear the answer. You give them the answer and they will always look for loopholes and ways around.....NOT BEING RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS! You don’t want to follow an order given by an Officer or an NCO....Article 15 or Court Martial. Period. Dereliction of duty....Art 15. or Court Martial....Etc etc.

We have gotten into this quadry with why the breakdown with the discipline because there are more people turning a blind eye to a troops fuck up then making them accountable. They spend too much time explaing to a snot nose punk "WHY" we have to do it....and if that snot nosed punk says...I don't want to do that....we get BALLESS supervisors that say okay...I will get sparky to do it instead hence letting that punk get his way. You should be give an an order or a direction that affects the mission and you follow it.

My response to the sought out answer you seek....MAKE THEM ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS! ENFORCE THE UCMJ! Disrespect to an Officier or NCO you get and ART 15. Step on your peepee again you find your butt in a court martial. It all boils down anyway you look at it. The military iNOT HOLDING PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS.

ACCOUNTABILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS. You hold people accountable and discipline will be fixed.

YOU WANT THE TRUTH.....YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH! LOL! Had to throw that in.

[weazlefuzion]

The funny thing here sunshine is this generation doesn't want to hear the answer. You give them the answer and they will always look for loopholes and ways around.....NOT BEING RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS! You don’t want to follow an order given by an Officer or an NCO....Article 15 or Court Martial. Period. Dereliction of duty....Art 15. or Court Martial....Etc etc.

We have gotten into this quadry with why the breakdown with the discipline because there are more people turning a blind eye to a troops fuck up then making them accountable. They spend too much time explaing to a snot nose punk "WHY" we have to do it....and if that snot nosed punk says...I don't want to do that....we get BALLESS supervisors that say okay...I will get sparky to do it instead hence letting that punk get his way. You should be give an an order or a direction that affects the mission and you follow it.

My response to the sought out answer you seek....MAKE THEM ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS! ENFORCE THE UCMJ! Disrespect to an Officier or NCO you get and ART 15. Step on your peepee again you find your butt in a court martial. It all boils down anyway you look at it. The military iNOT HOLDING PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS.

ACCOUNTABILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS. You hold people accountable and discipline will be fixed.

YOU WANT THE TRUTH.....YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH! LOL! Had to throw that in.

You know, that's a quite simple answer, and it's the best one yet. Now, to get everyone on board... someone send an email to everyone in the Global (ultra-super-duper email list for those who don't use it or know).

[Variable Wind]

When I was 24 a whole year ago, life was hard. You had to have AT&T to get an iPhone, you didnt know whether to invest in HD-DVD or Blue-Ray, and gas was monstrously expensive. Now look at how easy these kids have it.

Little punks.

[CMSBROWN]

When I was 24 a whole year ago, life was hard. You had to have AT&T to get an iPhone, you didnt know whether to invest in HD-DVD or Blue-Ray, and gas was monstrously expensive. Now look at how easy these kids have it.

Little punks.

You know my son who is 20 now joined the Army when he was 19, one day out of the blue when I was in Iraq about 2 months ago he text me to my email account that he now understood why I raised him the way I did. I was in shock...this couldnt be my son...LOL! But it made you feel good as parent that you taught your kids to be accountable for their actions just as your parents taught you. I believe it prepared him for life in the Army and life out on his own.

I have and IPhone..I have a PS3(Blue-Ray)....and I own a gas guzzler. LOL! Thank god gas is coming back down. LOL!

[Variable Wind]

You know my son who is 20 now joined the Army when he was 19, one day out of the blue when I was in Iraq about 2 months ago he text me to my email account that he now understood why I raised him the way I did. I was in shock...this couldnt be my son...LOL! But it made you feel good as parent that you taught your kids to be accountable for their actions just as your parents taught you. I believe it prepared him for life in the Army and life out on his own.

I have and IPhone..I have a PS3(Blue-Ray)....and I own a gas guzzler. LOL! Thank god gas is coming back down. LOL!

A-men to that. Though I would fit closer to your son in that scenario than you. Age has its wisdom and others in their age serve as a beacon of who NOT to be. I remember my father telling me not to make the same mistakes he had in life and I remember telling him that I wanted to make my own mistakes to learn from. I also remember thinking to myself (dammit the man was right) soon after making said mistakes.

[CMSBROWN]

A-men to that. Though I would fit closer to your son in that scenario than you. Age has its wisdom and others in their age serve as a beacon of who NOT to be. I remember my father telling me not to make the same mistakes he had in life and I remember telling him that I wanted to make my own mistakes to learn from. I also remember thinking to myself (dammit the man was right) soon after making said mistakes.

LOL! I said that too about my father as well....even though I am 44 and he is 69....the Old Man still has wise words. :)

[Unregistered]

As a member of the younger generation I could not disagree with you more. The fact still remains that majority of commissions still come from privileged families. The few that are not are there thanks to the benefits and mandates of affirmative action. The difference in today's youth is that most enlistees are high school graduates with at least a year or two of college under their belts. Many of the jobs in the military are so technologically advanced that the enlisted man is no longer a grunt, ignorant peasant. The fact of the matter is that an officer is no better than an enlisted. Both are an integral part of the structure of the military. You can't have one without the other. Sadly there are still some senior officers that share your mind set and as a result treat enlisted as second class citizens. Why is it that a piece of paper merits a state room and lack there of results in a bed that is smaller than an infants crib. Respect is earned not expected.

[jsnchrry]

Why is it that a piece of paper merits a state room and lack there of results in a bed that is smaller than an infants crib. Respect is earned not expected.


In response to above post, a degree helps in both the civilian and military world, thats just the way of the world. With that being said there are careers where you can make good money without a degree but you will have a much easier time after you get out if you have one. When I left the service two years ago I remember going to clearance job fairs and feeling as if my resume was naked without that degree. Luckily I was able to get a good job and am working currently on my computer certifations and degree.

[militaryLSUfan]

ok, so apparantly i am one you might consider a peasant. i don't come from money, my parents worked that butts off to provide for our family. social class has nothing to do with respect, its how you are raised. if your parents raise you to respect your elders and persons in position of authourity then you will.

I am a Senior Airman, but it does not matter who I talk to, someone lower ranking, i still address them as yes sir and yes ma'am. just because you are in a position of authority or have more money than me does not mean you are the only one that deserves respect. how about some NCO's, SNCO's, and officers treat their troops with respect too?? i understand the rank structure, but why should i show someone respect when they could give two sh*** who i am just because of rank.

discipline starts at home with the parents!!!


on another note: one of the problems is the whole deal with "stress" cards in basic. it started after i came through, but its an absolutely ridiculous idea, and I think thats one of the problems with discipline right there.

[SGT Nolan]

As a member of the younger generation I could not disagree with you more. The fact still remains that majority of commissions still come from privileged families. The few that are not are there thanks to the benefits and mandates of affirmative action. The difference in today's youth is that most enlistees are high school graduates with at least a year or two of college under their belts. Many of the jobs in the military are so technologically advanced that the enlisted man is no longer a grunt, ignorant peasant. The fact of the matter is that an officer is no better than an enlisted. Both are an integral part of the structure of the military. You can't have one without the other. Sadly there are still some senior officers that share your mind set and as a result treat enlisted as second class citizens. Why is it that a piece of paper merits a state room and lack there of results in a bed that is smaller than an infants crib. Respect is earned not expected.

Hooah! Well said! But we all know NCO's are lower enlisted are the back bone of the Army. =)

[Unregistered]

I really think the softer parenting skills and the softer gentler side of boot camp now. !8 and 19 year olds are not as mature as in the WWII days. More spoiled and lazy also not much physical activities with video games and TV. Boot camp now a days is a joke

[ArmySergeant]

The reason why this problem exists is something called the "Breakdown of the Military", which is caused by the Iraq War. Iraq, an illegal and unpopular occupation, has caused a lot of career soldiers to run for the hills after as many as 15 and 17 years of service. It has also caused high-quality recruitment problems. In an attempt to get "more bodies" for the war, they have lowered standards, which leaves you with poorer quality recruits coming in-rapists even waivered for their felonies. We have people in the Army today who are not legally allowed to own their own gun or vote. Then, some consultants decided that one reason for not enough people joining was the "too hard" BCT and AIT. So that was weakened, in order to get more bodies for Iraq. Then the ability to get people out when they really didn't agree with the Army was stripped away. As was too-expensive medical care, rehabilitation...

We're only going to see an improvement in our military when we bring an end to the Iraq War.

[Measure Man]

The reason why this problem exists is something called the "Breakdown of the Military", which is caused by the Iraq War. Iraq, an illegal and unpopular occupation, has caused a lot of career soldiers to run for the hills after as many as 15 and 17 years of service. It has also caused high-quality recruitment problems. In an attempt to get "more bodies" for the war, they have lowered standards, which leaves you with poorer quality recruits coming in-rapists even waivered for their felonies. We have people in the Army today who are not legally allowed to own their own gun or vote. Then, some consultants decided that one reason for not enough people joining was the "too hard" BCT and AIT. So that was weakened, in order to get more bodies for Iraq. Then the ability to get people out when they really didn't agree with the Army was stripped away. As was too-expensive medical care, rehabilitation...

We're only going to see an improvement in our military when we bring an end to the Iraq War.

On the other hand...what's the point of having an improved Army if you can't fight a war with it???

[devastator]

What happened to leading by example? Why are nco's in leadership positions getting no work profiles? Why are soldiers being stopped lossed and officiers allowed to leave Iraq mid deployment to take hi paying contract jobs? Why don't officiers render the proper salute? How can 4 nco's get rated as leading the same 4 soldiers? And why are there nocers almost identical.(they wrote them themselves) Why are soldiers not recieving medical attention and nco's are flown to any specialist they desire? Why is PFC Jones a bad soldier when he's five min late, but Sgt Jone's is not admonished for being 30 min late and takes a 2hour nap during lunch. Why is it that when Pfc Jones is about to pass out he's told drink water, and Sgt Jone's just goes home for the day because his nose is running?

People the reason Jr. enlisted are not performing to standard is because leadership is not to standard. The above list goes on and on. Now i challenge you all to find the solution, or the mentality will be, " I need to get promoted so that I can do what i've been doing without punishment.

What do you all think?

[AF Chief]

I am a Senior Airman, but it does not matter who I talk to, someone lower ranking, i still address them as yes sir and yes ma'am. just because you are in a position of authority or have more money than me does not mean you are the only one that deserves respect.


I am a CMSgt and often call young Airmen "Sir" or "Ma'am" in conversation. Matter of fact, yesterday, I won a trivia contest on the radio here on base. I was talking to a young enlisted Army or Marine DJ. I called him Sir after every sentence and I knew who he was.

Well he played the taped conversation later on. He replied, "Wow! I am not used to being called "Sir" by a Chief Master Sergeant". I kind of laughed when I heard this. Respect goes both ways.

[Unregistered]

It’s all due to poor leadership. Personnel are coming in smarter and with more questions than ever before. We can’t use the same mentality of "Just do what I say".

[Eagle Scout]

The problem that is mentioned here is very common. I am an Assistant Scoutmaster for a Boy Scout troop. The boys join the troop and have no idea what respect is. My policy is they learn respect or they get out. By the time they are 14, I have them saying yes sir and no sir regularly.

I think that the root of the problem is that parents don't push their children out of the nest and try to shield them from all the bad things in the world. This causes us to have twenty year olds with no job, no driver's permit, no car, and no plans for the future.

These people don't know how to act in society and as a result, cause negative changes to the society. Of my scouts, all over 15 have jobs, all over 14 play sports and are in clubs at school. The current rate of Eagle Scouts from this group is unbelievable. Out of 150 scouts in 18 years, 30 Eagles.

The program instills discipline in the scouts. They need it because they don't get it at home. And in case you are wondering, I am 18 and going to college to be a USN officer.

[Unregistered]

I'm absolutely certain someone has made these points already, but I thought I'd throw my $.02 in.

1. The newbies only do what we allow them to.
2. Standards are kinda' funny in that 'we' have to live by them as well.

With that in mind, lead by example and leave a trail of discipline and respect wherever you go. You can't fix everything.

[Your_Name_Here]

It’s all due to poor leadership. Personnel are coming in smarter and with more questions than ever before. We can’t use the same mentality of "Just do what I say".

I kind of agree--a little bit. While there are poor leaders out there, the more common issue I have seen is applying the right leadership style to the wrong person, or at the wrong time, or the other way around.

It doesn't need to be "Just do as I say," all the time. That said, junior personnel would be VERY well-advised to learn the difference--when to question, and when to "shut up and color."

I say those supervisors who insist on one cookie-cutter approach to leadership--whatever style that is--will never extract full value from their personnel; it's extra effort, but well worth it.

[ty5486]

While some young people are smarter, they aren't smarter about what we do, why we do it, or why we do it that way. Sure, there are ways to better many processes. Sure some of the "newbies" may have good ideas. There is a time and place for new ideas and there is a time and place for following orders. Never forget that we are in the military. Many aspects of what we do aren't fun, but it is not the place of the junior man to question orders. We are all junior to somebody, we should definitely learn how to approach a superior with ideas for change, but we also should learn to accept that there are things we can't change and it is our job to to what we're told.

[Lefty]

While some young people are smarter, they aren't smarter about what we do, why we do it, or why we do it that way. Sure, there are ways to better many processes. Sure some of the "newbies" may have good ideas. There is a time and place for new ideas and there is a time and place for following orders. Never forget that we are in the military. Many aspects of what we do aren't fun, but it is not the place of the junior man to question orders. We are all junior to somebody, we should definitely learn how to approach a superior with ideas for change, but we also should learn to accept that there are things we can't change and it is our job to to what we're told.

I'm glad that people at my base question orders all the time, but before you get mad, just listen to what I am going to tell you. For OPSEC reasons, I will not get into specifics, but the leadership at my base have been giving out unlawful orders for little things, and all of the "newbies" are calling them on their order(s). At this point, the leadership has to rescind their orders, or stop bothering people that don't. Wing Kings are not gods, and neither are Flag officers. There are rules and regulations that even the CSAF has to follow, and this is a good thing. I understand that it would be a pain in the ass for young soldiers to question orders to go behind enemy lines and shoot bad guys, but there are different scenarios that need to be questioned. Nixon did not follow rules, and he said things like "When a President does it (criminal act) it is not illegal!" I see this logic in military leadership all the time, and it needs to be nipped in the bud. Also, does anyone else in the military notice a trend of getting punished for the mistakes of one person? I'm just curious.

[weazlefuzion]

I'm glad that people at my base question orders all the time, but before you get mad, just listen to what I am going to tell you. For OPSEC reasons, I will not get into specifics, but the leadership at my base have been giving out unlawful orders for little things, and all of the "newbies" are calling them on their order(s). At this point, the leadership has to rescind their orders, or stop bothering people that don't. Wing Kings are not gods, and neither are Flag officers. There are rules and regulations that even the CSAF has to follow, and this is a good thing. I understand that it would be a pain in the ass for young soldiers to question orders to go behind enemy lines and shoot bad guys, but there are different scenarios that need to be questioned. Nixon did not follow rules, and he said things like "When a President does it (criminal act) it is not illegal!" I see this logic in military leadership all the time, and it needs to be nipped in the bud. Also, does anyone else in the military notice a trend of getting punished for the mistakes of one person? I'm just curious.

I'm not so sure your last statement can be labeled "a trend". It's a concept of group leadership that's been used since the days of Romans and probably well before that too. I agree with the concept when it's used properly and intelligently. It holds members of a unit accountable for one another so you get on your buddy about his drinking, PT, being late, uniforms, etc etc.

[acesfilter]

I read a lot about how the younger generation of military personnel isn't as disciplined and shows less respect to those of senior rank.

I think there are basically two reasons for this:

1. Elimination of physical counseling.

2. America's general elimination of a class-based society.

On point one: There used to be a time where people were put in their place by taking a walk out back or in the forward locker. I know that it went too far too many times. But, it did keep people in line.

On point two: In the ages prior to WWII officers were generally of noble blood. The common soldiers and sailors were generally peasants (for lack of a better word).

Everyone knew their station in life. There were written and unwritten social rules about how to speak, eat and so on. Peasants rarely became officers. The civilian social structure was echoed in the military.

Then WWII came. Millions of Americans from all walks of life (as in all social classes) were thrust into positions that they otherwise wouldn't have had the opportunity to take.

The post WWII era saw a huge change in the social classes of America. As the years go on there becomes very little to separate the rich from the poor. The rich aren't beyond the law anymore. The poor can afford big screen TVs.

So, a poor kid joins the military and sees higher ranking people and thinks "They're no better than I am" and acts like it.

And due to point number one above, not much can be done about it except paperwork and extra duty.

Do you agree?

Well, I'm sure this vehement, yet inept, statement has been beaten like a dead horse with a squadron of flies swarming around its arse. You're not, perchance, in the clan, are you?

Seriously though...I'm sure it would have started out as a decent argument; poor choice of verbiage aside.

[sammyd]

We used to get talked to by a dogging wrench on occasion....
Rare but it did happen.

Respect was in the crapper back in 94.
I was on my active duty trip to a sub tender in Norfolk. I witnessed an e-3 tell a chief to f*&k off. The chief turned and walked away, I was stunned. Later I asked the chief about it and he said...well it's a kinder, gentler navy now.
On the same trip I was told several times to f*&k off and not in a joking manner.
When I was active an e-3 would never dare tell a crusty old 2nd class that.
I brought it up with the shop sup and was pretty much told the same thing the chief told me.

I'm educated, I'm special...blah blah blah...you are a sailor, you should follow orders instead of questioning them. Even if they are unlawful, you can report that violation later.
You do not need to know they whys and wherefores of everything you are told to do. To waste time and question authority is a breach of discipline.

[SSgtRenegade]

I've been thinking about this one. I think the major problem is the whole "touchy-feely" don't hurt anyone's feelings, everyone be nice to everyone mentality has taken to firm of grip and is spilling over into our military. The Chain of Command is now the Chain of Suggestion, Asking Nicely, and Be Polite.

[acesfilter]

You know my son who is 20 now joined the Army when he was 19, one day out of the blue when I was in Iraq about 2 months ago he text me to my email account that he now understood why I raised him the way I did. I was in shock...this couldnt be my son...LOL! But it made you feel good as parent that you taught your kids to be accountable for their actions just as your parents taught you. I believe it prepared him for life in the Army and life out on his own.

If even one of my kids says something to that effect to me one day...I will be impressed.


I have and IPhone..I have a PS3(Blue-Ray)....and I own a gas guzzler. LOL! Thank god gas is coming back down. LOL!

Aw...man! You should scrap the iPhone ASAP! Just my technical opinion though.

[CMSBROWN]

If even one of my kids says something to that effect to me one day...I will be impressed.

Aw...man! You should scrap the iPhone ASAP! Just my technical opinion though.

No I like my IPhone...LOL!

[Yggdrasil]

I've gotten into this conversation many times before. The problem is, once someone has two years of service and they're an E4, they think they're some old salt who is in a position to bash young people coming into the military "these days".

Probably these best way to explain the way that most of us feel about this situation is to refer to a scene in The Breakfast Club, where the principle is talking about young people in high school. The janitor tells him that times haven't changed, nor are the teenagers any different. It was the principle himself who had changed.

Think about this - we can look back to Vietnam, when our troops were getting high off of every drug known to man while they were in country. Immediately after, you had many people who were AWOL/UA.

Honestly, I think that our military is the most disciplined it's ever been. However, it's the common story we see all the time. Boy is a senior in the high school that his father graduated from. Boy plays football, just like his father did. Father tells son that his football team was tougher/better back in his day. When boy grows up and has son who plays football, he's going to say the same thing to his son. Nothing new.

[Snoop_Frogg]

I've been over this in my head a lot in the past few weeks in dealing with my beligerant marines. I think it's our culture that's changing a lot, or some people just can't let go of what has happened in the past to them. It's always going to be a back in the day story for everyone. Back in the day I used to get punched in the gut every time I messed up, back in the day if i spit on the deck my nco used to make me lick it back up, it's always this and that when it gets to older marines, soldiers whatever. The reason everything is getting easier on our juniors is because they are either better ready for what's coming to them, they've been desensitized by past experiences or some other reason for somethin. So sometimes it's not going to stick when you give someone an ass chewing, which sucks cause you really want them to better themselves and if they just gaff you off and don't improve you have more reason to treat them like little children. I don't know...maybe it could also be these servicemembers that get out not giving a freak about their pride anymore too...you were a marine or soldier for 4-5 years, have pride. If you get your juniors to act the way you are acting when you get out...they will hate life until they get out, and some people get in and plan on staying in 20 or more. And some people just need that extra push and responsibility to show that they are more disciplined and set the example for the person that will be replacing them in the future, and not treat their juniors like crap.

[acesfilter]

I don't know...maybe it could also be these servicemembers that get out not giving a freak about their pride anymore too...you were a marine or soldier for 4-5 years, have pride.

A testimony to that would be their undying propensity to leave the military with no exit strategy other than to live with their parents while working at wal*mart and drowning in college debts.

[Snoop_Frogg]

A testimony to that would be their undying propensity to leave the military with no exit strategy other than to live with their parents while working at wal*mart and drowning in college debts.

That pretty much sums it up right there. And eventually a lot of them hang their head when we stay in with a stable living, or get our own place while they get stoned playing videogames in their parents basement before they go to their job at the 24 hour kwik mart.

[ZERO2111]

DISCIPLINE is the instant willing obediance to all orders, respect for authority, self-reliance, and teamwork. Discipline is doing what you are told, when you are told to do it. A lack of discipline is what gets people killed, I know I wouldn't want the death of someone to be on me because I failed to execute an order. At least that's what I was taught at boot camp.

I joined the Marine Corps at 17 and went to boot camp two weeks after graduation. My whole life I've always had discipline, but apparantly I'm in the generation that lacks it. My parents never had a problem disciplining me the hard way. When I was doing good they let me know and when I was doing bad they let me know. But they didn't always let me know the hard way, they would take my priviledges away. Same thing with basketball. My coach didn't always run us into the ground, he would give us a curfew and call our houses to make sure we were there. Punishment in the military doesn't always have to be hard (getting kicked in the chest for being late) or soft (paperwork), it can be somewhere in the middle. I failed field day so I had to paint rocks. I was late so I had to get rid of the weeds around the hangar. But I'll tell you what, I haven't failed field day or been late since. Maybe it's just the way I was brought up, but I respect everyone that's senior to me in rank. In my eyes, they've had to work to get where they are. I don't understand why people refuse to show respect to a senior enlisted or officer just because they think that person hasn't earned it.

[Snoop_Frogg]

You know that you make a good point in many ways. When any marine in my past units was late we'd all come in earlier...someone fell behind on pt and we'd run longer...someone got in an incident in oki and we had to go out in town with fireteams...and we had one of the most disciplined platoons in our company at the time. But I came here to the wing where in this unit at one time, being 5 min late for some people was the norm...what is field day...why should a sgt be in charge of pt...why isn't that cpl sweeping the deck...it all seems like everything for us as marines or any other branch has shifted to the left.

A lot of marines including myself had to bust their ass to get respect, be one of the marines that someone always relies on to get shit done, work with and lead marines the same rank and below me. And you always have good intentions of when i get to that next rank this is what i'll do to better my juniors, this is what i'll do to earn their respect and this is what i'll do to make sure that they are brought up the right way. But than you have the people that come up, and don't really do anything to deserve that responsibility, they do the bare minimum, and watch you do all the work and kind of try and steal your thunder in a way if they tell you that it needs to get done and you tackle it about a second after they said it needed to be done.
I think the problem isn't the lack of discipline, but the lack of reward for the servicemembers that deserve it. The ones that come in during the day, and wish that they could be the one sitting in a chair watching everyone do tasks, but know that somebody has to do it, and they are the only one with the drive to get that task done. I think that snco's, or nco's should step back and better observe those below them, and reward those juniors with more responibility, higher billets, and not give them more leway but help them become a stronger leader, because some people have more skills in one area than another...or can reach those that you thought were otherwise unreachable. And maybe in some instances where a person is being disobediant or beligerant...maybe make stricter punishments for them...it seems like for some juniors we are being too soft at first than hammering them in the end...maybe we should be tougher at first, so they think more about their actions and correct themselves rather than be a bag of ass and be close to worthless.

[PELIGROSO]

Ha, the "younger generation" is exactly like my generation. My peer group when I was an E1-E3 had no respect for SNCOs or Officers. Now that I'm a SNCO, I can hardly expect the nature of youth to change.

Discipline is taught, respect is earned.

You said it right. The problem is that the leaders are not acting like the leaders of the past. You see a SNCO or an officer who will not correct a problem unless they have some back up with them. How many of you people senior in rank have ever corrected someone from being out of regulations. It is slim to none. We all need to be doing the right thing by correcting things that are not being done properly. We would have a more disciplined force all around. This goes for all of the services.

[Variable Wind]

I've gotten into this conversation many times before. The problem is, once someone has two years of service and they're an E4, they think they're some old salt who is in a position to bash young people coming into the military "these days".

Probably these best way to explain the way that most of us feel about this situation is to refer to a scene in The Breakfast Club, where the principle is talking about young people in high school. The janitor tells him that times haven't changed, nor are the teenagers any different. It was the principle himself who had changed.

Think about this - we can look back to Vietnam, when our troops were getting high off of every drug known to man while they were in country. Immediately after, you had many people who were AWOL/UA.

Honestly, I think that our military is the most disciplined it's ever been. However, it's the common story we see all the time. Boy is a senior in the high school that his father graduated from. Boy plays football, just like his father did. Father tells son that his football team was tougher/better back in his day. When boy grows up and has son who plays football, he's going to say the same thing to his son. Nothing new.

Not to completely negate your post but just enhance upon it given your metaphor which is quite appropriate.

When the father played football, late hits were common and there wasnt much regulation in the way of pass interference. So he looks at that and says to his son that when he was a QB it was harder because he got slammed by the defense all the time and they were tougher to throw against. Of course nowadays, the Linebackers are faster and the QBs have to be quicker and more agile. Cornerbacks are more like wide receivers who can lay a hit on someone so its still hard to sneak a pass through.

Same goes on in the military. It WAS legitamately harder for a person of color in the military years ago (because of all us racists as you have convinced yourself of) than it is today. The scenarios change, and that affects attitude. It simple as chaos theory. To say that time is static is a bit naive, but the GENERAL principle is correct in that human nature is the same. But the environment will contribute to how human nature develops as a society.

[Yggdrasil]

You said it right. The problem is that the leaders are not acting like the leaders of the past. You see a SNCO or an officer who will not correct a problem unless they have some back up with them. How many of you people senior in rank have ever corrected someone from being out of regulations. It is slim to none. We all need to be doing the right thing by correcting things that are not being done properly. We would have a more disciplined force all around. This goes for all of the services.

The even bigger problem is senior people not caring about the differences in rank among those junior to them. In the Navy, however, this is mostly the problem that Third Class Petty Officers face - and to a certain extent, even many Second Classes.

You see this out in the fleet everyday: Third Class tells a Seaman to do something. Seaman says, "F*** you, I'm not doing it. You do it!" The day goes on like nothing happened. This leaves two important questions:

1. What makes the Seaman think he can do this and get away with it?
2. Why did the Third Class let it go?

Answers:

1. Third Class Petty Officers in the Navy are, for the most part, treated the same as E3 and below. They are subject to mess cranking, etc. And working parties are always E4 and below. Even if the available E3 and below exceeds the number of bodies required for the working party, it's always an E4 and below working party. That said, the Seaman sees the Third Class Petty Officer as a peer, and not someone senior to him - as if the difference between E3 and E4 is the same as the difference between E2 and E3.

2. Because the Third Class Petty Officer is treated the same as those junior to him, he believes that any attempt to write him up or take any disciplinary action will be viewed upon by those in his chain of command as bickering between two junior Sailors.

The sad fact is, that in most cases, both the Seaman and the Third Class Petty Officer are correct in what they're thinking.

[ringjamesa]

I have said it before and will say it again. Things have changed but they aren't any worse than they were in the past. Some things went by the wayside as they should have. That doesn't mean that todays young folks are any worse for the wear. Are there bad apples that make them look bad? Sure. But for those SNCOs out there, can't you remember back to when you were an E-1-E-5 all the way back to your first enlistment. Weren't there some people that you knew back then that you KNEW wouldn't last past their first enlistment? Some of them may have straightened up and stayed but the rest got out. The same thing for this generation, and the one after that, and the one after that. During the first few years, the ones who aren't meant for the military but refuse to give up give you the most headaches but then they move on with their lives and you are left with the ones that have adapted and want to be here (along with a few who figure what the hell I can't do any better). That is why every generation seems so bad. We look around at those of us who have been in the same amount of time and are the same rank and say "we are so much better than these young bucks." We may very well be right but when you factor in those that left our ranks over the years, I think it is a wash.

Just my two cents

BTW, there is a similar thread in the AF section asking why E-9s are so bad these days and I would venture to guess that the same people who are complaining about the younger generation were complaining about the "old geezers" back when they were young too...either that or those complaining about the old geezers got out...

[weazlefuzion]

You know that you make a good point in many ways. When any marine in my past units was late we'd all come in earlier...someone fell behind on pt and we'd run longer...someone got in an incident in oki and we had to go out in town with fireteams...and we had one of the most disciplined platoons in our company at the time. But I came here to the wing where in this unit at one time, being 5 min late for some people was the norm...what is field day...why should a sgt be in charge of pt...why isn't that cpl sweeping the deck...it all seems like everything for us as marines or any other branch has shifted to the left.

A lot of marines including myself had to bust their ass to get respect, be one of the marines that someone always relies on to get shit done, work with and lead marines the same rank and below me. And you always have good intentions of when i get to that next rank this is what i'll do to better my juniors, this is what i'll do to earn their respect and this is what i'll do to make sure that they are brought up the right way. But than you have the people that come up, and don't really do anything to deserve that responsibility, they do the bare minimum, and watch you do all the work and kind of try and steal your thunder in a way if they tell you that it needs to get done and you tackle it about a second after they said it needed to be done.
I think the problem isn't the lack of discipline, but the lack of reward for the servicemembers that deserve it. The ones that come in during the day, and wish that they could be the one sitting in a chair watching everyone do tasks, but know that somebody has to do it, and they are the only one with the drive to get that task done. I think that snco's, or nco's should step back and better observe those below them, and reward those juniors with more responibility, higher billets, and not give them more leway but help them become a stronger leader, because some people have more skills in one area than another...or can reach those that you thought were otherwise unreachable. And maybe in some instances where a person is being disobediant or beligerant...maybe make stricter punishments for them...it seems like for some juniors we are being too soft at first than hammering them in the end...maybe we should be tougher at first, so they think more about their actions and correct themselves rather than be a bag of ass and be close to worthless.

I put the bold in above, because that really is the problem. I actually started a thread related to this in the AF section about how the Enlisted Force Structure is to blame. We have so many people that do their best, 100% of the time and strive to do better, and they get the same promotions, awards, EPRs, etc that everyone else does. Therefore, we end up with the same proportions of good NCOs as we do the bad ones. The higher you go, there should be a significant disparity in the quality of leader because though some may slip through the cracks for E-5, they're less likely to do so for E-6 and so on.

If you come to work early, stay late, take shorter lunches, take care of your subordinates to the best of your ability and still manage to volunteer, take on additional duties, attend auxiliary training and even remain sane, why aren't you getting promoted faster? In the AF, it's EPR inflation and the annual WAPS cycle. If you're good, you should be promoted sooner than the guy next to you even if he has more time in and makes the test cycle. If E-4 is where leadership should start (it's NCO in Navy/Marines and sometimes Army, and in the AF can get Red X and tasked with many NCO duties), then stop giving it away. It shouldn't be nearly as hard as E-5 to get, but there needs to be a route for good troops and good leaders to promote sooner and faster, not simply to fill "manning requirements" for a particular job.

[PELIGROSO]

I am sure you might have been trying to make a legitimate point, but there is just one problem: your unfortunate word choice.

Run--don't walk--to your local bookstore and buy yourself a Thesaurus! It would potentially save you from future skewerings, though not the ones you will be getting for this.

And now, MY turn: YGBFSM if you really think "Nobles" existed in the US in the early 20th Century. And you didn't say a word to back up your laughable notion that poor people automatically see senior personnel as better than themselves.

But since you are calling on a return to the "good old days" how about you do YOUR part by inviting your immediate supervisor to take you out back for "wall-to-wall" counseling; that would show us you are willing to put your money where your mouth is! You signing over all your assets to me would also be a good first step to bringing a return to the "class" system. I am 3 classes from my BS, so I figure I am close enough to
"nobility" for our purposes.

You want to know where the lack of discipline comes from? Here's a better answer: 1)No Home Training, 2)Ineffectual parenting from those who'd rather be friends than parents, 3)constant Media bombardment from a dizzying array of figures who are so full of themselves, and expect the public's adulation for it.

But it's not all gloom and doom: the younger generations are beneficiaries of the greatest advances in science, technology and education, and other fields, putting them on a completely different footing from that Enlisted ca. WWII who may or may not have finished HS, or the Officer who may or may not have even been to college. It is this footing that we as supervisors and leadership would be well-served addressing.

This is the view from where I sit: YMMV.

You hit it dead on! Parents are not doing there job nowadays which carries over to their childs adulthood. I myself make my teenager everynow and then log on to all of his accounts (myspace, chats, etc...) and tell him to leave the room. We have a talk afterwards as to what I think was inappropriate. Parents need to do the right things and their children/us would be better for it.

[EW1]

The problem is that there is a lack of leadership. A collegue of mine recently retired from a government agency tasked with looking after shipboard missle systems. Hearing that an E2 responded to an E7 by saying 'okay chiefie' made me wonder why the kid didn't get written up and 30 days extra duty. The chief should've been demoted for letting the kid get away with it.

The PMS onboard many ships is neglected and I doubt if anyone has to answer for it. It's not a matter of social class, it's a matter of maturity. Too many coddled babies that got everything they wanted from mommy and daddy without being taught responsibility.

[big sarge]

LOL! I said that too about my father as well....even though I am 44 and he is 69....the Old Man still has wise words. :) CMS Brown, I would like to discuss some scenarios I have in dealing with Soliders over yahoo im or e-mail. Would you be willing to provide your e-mail address or yahoo im?

Big Sarge.

[LOAL-D]

I still love the “pheasants” quotes at the start of this thread. Man that was funny! Thanks VW & YNH

[darkhorse0369]

Discipline is always going to be an issue. We can't be lazy about the punishment. EMI is still a legal way of correcting deficiencies. But it does take some work to type out the counseling and check the orders you plan on referencing. Just gave out some to a disrespectfull little knuckle head this morning. Leaders just have to be more creative with their punishments. We can't be lazy because that's when we let it slide.

[Xtreme]

I did read the first page, but I didn't read all the posts leading up to this one yet.

Hmpf. The original topic creator was talking about a social class and how that might have had a hand in discipline in the military. I disagree, because social classes still exist, but they just exist more loosely than before. And second, part of the systemic functions that held that social(racial) class in order was, racist in nature. The concept of "all men are created equal" isn't socialist. It's humanist.

Second, I beg to make the distinction between a social discipline, and an operational discipline. As far as operational discipline, I will challenge the statement that suggest that our Soldiers(and Airmen, Marine and Sailor) lack discipline. We are by far the most disciplined military operating on a expedentiary scale, ever. Our Troops show a remarkable level of restraint where anyone else would have lost their minds, burned villages, caused genocide. Of course, you can cite events like Abu Garaib... but was that the rule? Or the exception? Simply put, our Troops are insanely disciplined when compared to other forces. We show so much restraint, that we adhere to rules and regulation that may even be historically absurd, such as, no sex or alcohol while deployed.

As far as social discipline, while I personally don't like for a person to sag their pants, who cares? As long as they are not sagging their pants while in UNIFORM, I can care less of how that person dress of duty.

But past fashion, I'm not going to ignore a possible lack of discipline on the social scale. However, the younger will always seem more undisciplined that the older crowd. All I can suggest, is lend a listening ear, because once they find that you are capable of listening, you will earn their respect, and jusy maybe they will listen back when you speak.

[WILDJOKER5]

I read a lot about how the younger generation of military personnel isn't as disciplined and shows less respect to those of senior rank.

I think there are basically two reasons for this:

1. Elimination of physical counseling.

2. America's general elimination of a class-based society.

On point one: There used to be a time where people were put in their place by taking a walk out back or in the forward locker. I know that it went too far too many times. But, it did keep people in line.

On point two: In the ages prior to WWII officers were generally of noble blood. The common soldiers and sailors were generally peasants (for lack of a better word).

Everyone knew their station in life. There were written and unwritten social rules about how to speak, eat and so on. Peasants rarely became officers. The civilian social structure was echoed in the military.

Then WWII came. Millions of Americans from all walks of life (as in all social classes) were thrust into positions that they otherwise wouldn't have had the opportunity to take.

The post WWII era saw a huge change in the social classes of America. As the years go on there becomes very little to separate the rich from the poor. The rich aren't beyond the law anymore. The poor can afford big screen TVs.

So, a poor kid joins the military and sees higher ranking people and thinks "They're no better than I am" and acts like it.

And due to point number one above, not much can be done about it except paperwork and extra duty.

Do you agree?

WOW, I couldnt get past the first post to know this guy is a total TOOL. Before the civil war we had a certain class system too. There should be no more giving to this thread after reading his post, then telling him to STFU!!!

[JHawkG33K]

The OP is interesting to say the least. The premise is a loss of discipline and the cause ... not being allowed to beat a subordinate and the elimination of a "class" system in America. I believe these both to be wrong in so many ways.

The loss of discipline in most often perceived and not actual. Yes, the younger generation has a different view and they tend to go about expressing themselves in a way that older individuals either don't understand or don't care to understand.

Self-control and accountability are the problems that can be attributed to the individual. If I choose not to accept responsibility for my actions or I fail to follow the rules it is viewed in general as a "discipline" problem. No one can force me to have self-control, they can only punish me when I violate the rules.

If I choose to accept responsibility, am accountable for my actions, maintain my self-control, and am respectful of others then I have discipline. When all people uphold these values we will have a perfect society, until then...you get what you get and you don't pitch a fit.

Work with what is there and try to instill them in the younger generation if you feel they are lacking.

Complaining about the problem without making an effort to help solve it will get you nowhere...fast.

[DoABarrelRoll]

I am sure you might have been trying to make a legitimate point, but there is just one problem: your unfortunate word choice.

Run--don't walk--to your local bookstore and buy yourself a Thesaurus! It would potentially save you from future skewerings, though not the ones you will be getting for this.

And now, MY turn: YGBFSM if you really think "Nobles" existed in the US in the early 20th Century. And you didn't say a word to back up your laughable notion that poor people automatically see senior personnel as better than themselves.

But since you are calling on a return to the "good old days" how about you do YOUR part by inviting your immediate supervisor to take you out back for "wall-to-wall" counseling; that would show us you are willing to put your money where your mouth is! You signing over all your assets to me would also be a good first step to bringing a return to the "class" system. I am 3 classes from my BS, so I figure I am close enough to
"nobility" for our purposes.

You want to know where the lack of discipline comes from? Here's a better answer: 1)No Home Training, 2)Ineffectual parenting from those who'd rather be friends than parents, 3)constant Media bombardment from a dizzying array of figures who are so full of themselves, and expect the public's adulation for it.

But it's not all gloom and doom: the younger generations are beneficiaries of the greatest advances in science, technology and education, and other fields, putting them on a completely different footing from that Enlisted ca. WWII who may or may not have finished HS, or the Officer who may or may not have even been to college. It is this footing that we as supervisors and leadership would be well-served addressing.

This is the view from where I sit: YMMV.

You forgot to place blame on the military leadership too.

[WILDJOKER5]

The beatings will continue till the moral is improved. Beatings are sometimes the only way to punish numbskulls that cant figure shyt out through words.

[DoABarrelRoll]

I always wondered what would happen if the senior guy trying to educate got knocked out...

[vb123]

Has alot to do with promotions of NCOs. NCOS either don't correct deficiencies or are the ones violating policies.

I've seen a Soldier walk and talk on his cell phone from the PX all the way to his car. Walking past at least 3-4 NCOS (including a SFC). They didn't say a word.

Now that Soldier who did not get corrected, will surely become an NCO one day and the lack of discipline will continue.

Plus Soldiers making E6 in 4-5 yrs, and E7 in 7 yrs is just flat ridiculous.

This is just an example. The army got too busy for it's self with GWOT and a lot of discipline went out the window.

[Master Tanker]

Radennis, is there a breakdown? I haven't read all the responses above(19 pages of stuff) but it seems to me that the military services these days reflect our society at large. We have turned from a 'class' society (as you correctly said ) to one that is managed, as I say. One's personal background or wealth is not as important as one's talent and competence AND, fortunately more so in recent years, one's integrity, character and private behavior. The US military services have followed this general trend. Thus it may appear as if soldiers these days seem to be more subordinate as in past days. But what it actually reflects is the belief of modern soldiers into their own abilities. But somewhere there must be an end to individualism and that is in action & combat. Then, we can only have one person saying what goes. I hope ALL services don't change that unwritten law.

[TheSarge]

the reason so many of our younger soldiers are not disciplined? "us, the NCO."

our younger soldiers have lost their moral pathway with regards to doing the right thing. i teach at the WLC now and i see it all the time. this is not a failure of the soldier....it is a failure in leadership. we demand so much of our soldiers but we dont give them the tools or the time to master their skills before we take them off on another tangent.

when someone enters my classroom, they find out that they are not going to be treated like dirt. they are treated as sergeants, regardless of the rank that they actually hold. the are called sergeant, they are given classes on how to be sergeants and they find that i dont pencil-whip a damn thing for them.

i expect the highest from each and every WLC student you send me. i go out of my way to make certain that the "failure" puts the time in to become a "pass", even if only the minimum, but i work with them, as do my peers. my day starts when i roll out of bed at 0300 and am on site at 0400 for formation at 0600, so i am certain that my materials and such are ready.

your soldiers deserve the same from you. just because you have advanced to E5/E6/E7 does not MAKE you right. you have to be right. rank does not give you an excuse to retire-on-active-duty, rather it should make you aware of your duty to be there, on the ground, awaiting your soldiers. rank should motivate you to listen to your soldier, counsel your soldier, mentor your soldier.

how many of my peers even use the counseling statement correctly....think about it....a counseling statement can be to put-on-paper the fact that a soldier has done something that did not quite meet the MEDAL requirements, but a couple of these good counselings can be a basis to get the soldier "coined" the next time a CSM or officer come to visit...this can lead to a nicer medal (ARCOM instead of AAM) when the soldier PCSs.

take the time to get back to basics...get out the FM 6-22 and read what you were supposed to learn in WLC and BNCOC and ANCOC....live this manual and by golly, you will find that the undisciplined soldiers talked about are from "OTHER UNITS", not yours.

-TheSarge

[Variable Wind]

Unfortunately Sarge, NCO's with your mindset are very few and far between.

[Yggdrasil]

I think an even bigger problem is senior NCO/PO's not backing junior NCO/PO's.

Afterall, we see it everyday - the E5 takes disciplinary action on his E4. E4 goes and cries to the E6, and the E6 counters what the E5 did.

The E5 now feels that there's really no point in trying to lead, because everything he does is going to get reversed by his E6.

[atlkozmo2003]

Definitely! Good point and also to add to it is the "kinder, gentler military" where no discipline can be given that heaven forbid, hurts someone's feelings.

[former31B]

the reason so many of our younger soldiers are not disciplined? "us, the NCO."

our younger soldiers have lost their moral pathway with regards to doing the right thing. i teach at the WLC now and i see it all the time. this is not a failure of the soldier....it is a failure in leadership. we demand so much of our soldiers but we dont give them the tools or the time to master their skills before we take them off on another tangent.

when someone enters my classroom, they find out that they are not going to be treated like dirt. they are treated as sergeants, regardless of the rank that they actually hold. the are called sergeant, they are given classes on how to be sergeants and they find that i dont pencil-whip a damn thing for them.

i expect the highest from each and every WLC student you send me. i go out of my way to make certain that the "failure" puts the time in to become a "pass", even if only the minimum, but i work with them, as do my peers. my day starts when i roll out of bed at 0300 and am on site at 0400 for formation at 0600, so i am certain that my materials and such are ready.

your soldiers deserve the same from you. just because you have advanced to E5/E6/E7 does not MAKE you right. you have to be right. rank does not give you an excuse to retire-on-active-duty, rather it should make you aware of your duty to be there, on the ground, awaiting your soldiers. rank should motivate you to listen to your soldier, counsel your soldier, mentor your soldier.

how many of my peers even use the counseling statement correctly....think about it....a counseling statement can be to put-on-paper the fact that a soldier has done something that did not quite meet the MEDAL requirements, but a couple of these good counselings can be a basis to get the soldier "coined" the next time a CSM or officer come to visit...this can lead to a nicer medal (ARCOM instead of AAM) when the soldier PCSs.

take the time to get back to basics...get out the FM 6-22 and read what you were supposed to learn in WLC and BNCOC and ANCOC....live this manual and by golly, you will find that the undisciplined soldiers talked about are from "OTHER UNITS", not yours.

-TheSarge

I do believe it would be a much better Army if we could replicate you multiple times over, replacing the majority of SNCOs just marking time till their 20 years are up.

[TheSarge]

former31B
Platoon Daddy:

i appreciate your statement. however, i have over the years found that what people write is not what they really believe. i do try to live the Warrior Ethos. there are times that i have to step back, disengage and question myself as to if i am about to jump in somebody's stuff or if i am about to over-react to the situation.

i just had a student that is not motivated, does not participate in classroom discussions so i had the class leader and the female student remain when i put everybody on break. i wanted a witness since there is a gender difference between the student and myself.

i explained that lack of motivation and her statement that she was a garrison soldier and was only at WLC because she was a SPC "PROMOTABLE" and her unit requires it before she gets promoted. i told her that with her attitude and lack of motivation and her disrespectful attitude towards the SGLs that if i saw it one more time, that i was going to reccomend her for removal from the course.

she did not get it. she wanted to see the Senior SGL because i "singled her out to pick on her." she still contends that the two years she has been at her duty station that none of the company have ever gone to the field, they dont go to the range and they dont do common task (warrior task) training.

i dont believe it, myself. i let her know that she was going to be moved to the front of the class, so she can be more motivated.

i really need to contact her sponsor, but i will give her the opportunity to straighten herself out before i have to step in harshly.

-TheSarge

[former31B]

former31B
Platoon Daddy:

i appreciate your statement. however, i have over the years found that what people write is not what they really believe. i do try to live the Warrior Ethos. there are times that i have to step back, disengage and question myself as to if i am about to jump in somebody's stuff or if i am about to over-react to the situation.

i just had a student that is not motivated, does not participate in classroom discussions so i had the class leader and the female student remain when i put everybody on break. i wanted a witness since there is a gender difference between the student and myself.

i explained that lack of motivation and her statement that she was a garrison soldier and was only at WLC because she was a SPC "PROMOTABLE" and her unit requires it before she gets promoted. i told her that with her attitude and lack of motivation and her disrespectful attitude towards the SGLs that if i saw it one more time, that i was going to reccomend her for removal from the course.

she did not get it. she wanted to see the Senior SGL because i "singled her out to pick on her." she still contends that the two years she has been at her duty station that none of the company have ever gone to the field, they dont go to the range and they dont do common task (warrior task) training.

i dont believe it, myself. i let her know that she was going to be moved to the front of the class, so she can be more motivated.

i really need to contact her sponsor, but i will give her the opportunity to straighten herself out before i have to step in harshly.

-TheSarge

Wow! Well, based on my experience, I can attest to the fact that there are units that don't go to the field and simply check the block on STT. I was in such a unit at a TRADOC post (not a training unit though). Still, there is no excuse for this Soldier's attitude as part of the point of WLC is to ensure minimum competency in Army tasks.

As I'm sure you've experienced, people are a product of their experience. This goes for folks in the Army as well. The fact is that there are a lot of folks (and units) in the Army not doing the right thing. This soldier's current post may (probably) is her first duty station and so for her, in her mind, that is all there is to her role in the Army. Can we really blame the soldier for this mentality when it's at least conceivable that her unit's leadership probably prepped her for WLC by checking the block?

You seem to be knowledgeable. I'd be interested to hear more about your experiences. Do you truly believe that there is a decline in discipline?

[Darkhorse_Gunny]

Pick up a history book every now and then and you'll see that this "discipline" issue has been going on for decades. There were problems in WW1 and WW2 (going UA, being drunk on post, etc...) as well as Korea (refusing to train, going UA, etc,,,) and in Vietnam (getting high, refusing to leave the lines, etc...) There is nothing more undisciplined about our service men and women today than there was then.

[TheSarge]

former31B
Platoon Daddy:

i am dead serious about the decline of discipline in the Army. i have been in the Army since 1981. I have been embedded with National Guard and Reserve units as well as my Active Duty time. i am a veteran of nearly every conflict since operation just cause. been in iraq and afghanistan several times over.

i am currently an instructor (small group leader) at a NCO academy, teaching the Warrior Leader Course. the soldiers showing up here range from SPC to SSG and the occasional PFC if there are slots available and their CSM makes the reccommendation.

"back in the day" if you were selected to go to PLDC or BNCOC, an instructor could count on you having been given a PT test, knew that you had been mentored for at least one-half to two days per week and been assigned reading material for the course and that you had a sponsor that was charged with preparing you for your course.

we get young kids that cannot pass the APFT, cannot pass HT/WT, cannot march, do not have the items in the packing list that is supplied 30-days prior to their arrival and many have a "i dont care, i will take my marginal 1059 and get promoted anyway, because you are not my rater," attitude.

it is not allowed to drop soldiers for push-ups anymore, you cant raise your voice too loud, you cant curse (which you should not anyway), and you have to provide this soldier who has little to no self-discipline, with the tools to build them as a leader.

many dont care. we are just a means to get promoted. for an e-5 and above to make this type of statement should be enough to make certain that they dont get that next rocker until they have proven themselves.

soldiers show up here and are not ready to read slides, dont know how to use an FM, dont know what FM covers what (even though it is posted on the school website) and generally have an attitude that does not make for good relations between their superiors, peers or subordinates.

when we cover counseling, it is always the same. they have all received negative counseling statements but few if any have ever received a counseling for good performance. i have to explain over and over again that if a soldier does well, you should note it on their monthly counseling, to use for evidence later to get them an ARCOM as opposed to an AAM when they PCS or do something that deserves an award or coin from the CSM/CG.

and believe it or not many dont realize that they should be receiving or be giving monthly and/or quarterly counselings and most claim that they have not received an initial counseling from their current and/or former command.

when a soldier messes up, and the counselings have not been performed for that soldier, it is not a failure (depending on the infraction) on the soldier's part, it is a LEADERSHIP FAILURE.

i try to instill in my students that this behavior STOPS WITH THEM. they need to go back, use what myself and the other instructors give them and make a positive difference.

i have my doubts about most. we try and we try, but i am certain that the majority will go back and make little or no positive contribution to their units, the Army or our Great Nation.

[Laboi]

You have got to be kidding!

Nobles..LMAO!

what ya think of President Obama?....peasant?

[spyshark69]

Did you ever stop to think that Officers are people like the rest of us?! They weren't raised in Castles and have royal family and tons of money. I respected their position and followed their orders(I'm a civilian now), but in terms of putting them on a Pedestal to worship?! Absolutely not! So what they have a 4yr degree? Unfortunately I see what you're saying but this will never change. Anybody can attend night classes and be in the same position as that Officer.

We'll never have that seperation that you're wanting. Really have we ever had it? Maybe if we accept Officer ONLY from Service Academies(West Point, AF Acad), and charge Ivy League prices(no free rides), and they must do a 6yr program and graduate with a Masters, are we going to start having that separation. As it sits now...anyone can work part-time or use Federal aid to go to a state school and be that Officer.

[Variable Wind]

Officers are people? I dont believe that for one second :D

[Seasons]

Officers are people? I dont believe that for one second :D

:(:(:(:(:(:(

[Variable Wind]

:(:(:(:(:(:(

Im not worried about offending you, youre not a person, you dont count :D

[Seasons]

Im not worried about offending you, youre not a person, you dont count :D

Damn your logic!

[spyshark69]

Officers are people? I dont believe that for one second :D

LOL! You must still be in! I work in a GS position now for the government and am finally able to see that their not so special after all ;)

[Variable Wind]

LOL! You must still be in! I work in a GS position now for the government and am finally able to see that their not so special after all ;)

Just got out, working as a private contractor on a DOD account. But almost all of my contacts are GS guys so I dont have to deal with the occifers.

[spyshark69]

Just got out, working as a private contractor on a DOD account. But almost all of my contacts are GS guys so I dont have to deal with the occifers.

That's cool I've been sooo tempted to work for a private contractor, especially overseas. The money is crazy! I've seen entry guys pull more than full bird Colonels...

[Variable Wind]

That's cool I've been sooo tempted to work for a private contractor, especially overseas. The money is crazy! I've seen entry guys pull more than full bird Colonels...

When I went over as a military guy, there were contractors at L-3 making more in a month than PFCs were making in a year deployment.

Hell some of the KBR guys at the laundry place were raking 80k a year.

[spyshark69]

When I went over as a military guy, there were contractors at L-3 making more in a month than PFCs were making in a year deployment.

Hell some of the KBR guys at the laundry place were raking 80k a year.

I'm glad to see that we got a nice $400/month pay raise for our troubles :rolleyes: All the while civilians are just rolling around in money like it's nothing...

[Sgt4341]

All,

There seem to be a bunch of windy people in here...So I'll keep it short.

Mentorship.

That's it.

NCO's aren't taking ownership of their people and for that, the US Armed Forces are suffering.

It's not only a Marine Corps problem. Selfless leadership is a must in these days of me-first, selfish thinking.

That is all.

-Sgt. L

[Berry5711]

All,

There seem to be a bunch of windy people in here...So I'll keep it short.

Mentorship.

That's it.

NCO's aren't taking ownership of their people and for that, the US Armed Forces are suffering.

It's not only a Marine Corps problem. Selfless leadership is a must in these days of me-first, selfish thinking.

That is all.

-Sgt. L

Quoted for truth. It's easy to say "this problem is across the military" really though it is on the individual. You don't have to slay someone to get respect out of them, you have to earn it. Rank=/=Respect, all rank earns you is management. Respect is something you earn yourself, regardless of rank. The problem is a lot of people out there with heavy collars (and some light ones) think they rate respect, incorrect, you rate obedience.

Leadership and Mentoring, not managing earn you respect, not your paycheck.

[GATEFAN]

Ok so instead of just crucifying the guy for his word choice, which by the way makes sense as a COMPARISON, pull your heads out of your behinds and try having a discussion without using personal attacks. I agree with him. As a 1LT in the Army I believe there is not enough discipline. Since when did it become acceptable for SNCO to give orders to and officer, junior or not? You have 15+ years in, got it. But that does not, I say again, does not give you the authority to give orders to officers. Period. And as for junior enlisted, something needs to be done about their attitudes towards SNCOs and officers alike. It seems like they dont really want to repsect rank structure at all. There is too much politically correct, we have to be nice to them crap nowadays. It needs to stop.

[Shrike]

Ok so instead of just crucifying the guy for his word choice, which by the way makes sense as a COMPARISON, pull your heads out of your behinds and try having a discussion without using personal attacks. I agree with him. As a 1LT in the Army I believe there is not enough discipline. Since when did it become acceptable for SNCO to give orders to and officer, junior or not? You have 15+ years in, got it. But that does not, I say again, does not give you the authority to give orders to officers. Period. And as for junior enlisted, something needs to be done about their attitudes towards SNCOs and officers alike. It seems like they dont really want to repsect rank structure at all. There is too much politically correct, we have to be nice to them crap nowadays. It needs to stop.

You're the officer - if you see this sort of activity in your organization, man up and do something about it.

[former31B]

As a 1LT in the Army I believe there is not enough discipline.

It would be interesting to know what your commissioning source is. As a 1LT, it's doubtful that you have enough time in service to make such an assertion. That is of course unless you are one of those SNCOs with 15 years in that decide to become an officer.

[NAM6768]

Quoted for truth. It's easy to say "this problem is across the military" really though it is on the individual. You don't have to slay someone to get respect out of them, you have to earn it. Rank=/=Respect, all rank earns you is management. Respect is something you earn yourself, regardless of rank. The problem is a lot of people out there with heavy collars (and some light ones) think they rate respect, incorrect, you rate obedience.

Leadership and Mentoring, not managing earn you respect, not your paycheck.

Let's get something straight here. You are REQUIRED to respect rank, but not the individual. As stated, respect is something you earn. If YOU are disrespected, it doesn't mean your rank was disrespected. A salute is recognition of rank, and while it's a courtesy, it 's also required because of the person's rank. If an NCO is disrespected by his subordinates, he might as well request a transfer. Once you lose it, it's hard to get it back, just like rank.

[USCavScout]

As a senior NCO in the United States Army, who has done both combat tours and drove a desk, the answer is simple. We, as an Army, as a Nation, somewhere along the line decided that words like "consideration" and "respect" were catch-phrases that superceded authority. I have never cared if my Soldiers respected me. They will obey my instructions, and do as they are told, when and how they are told. The virtue of the rank structure and regulation states so. For officers, the President himself grants them that authority; NCOs, either the unit commander, Secretary of the Army, or the US Congress does. Its called LEADERSHIP. Not LIKErship. I don't care what Johnny feels in a professional capacity. (Please have the decency to read the previous statement in context, not accuse people of not caring.) My Soldiers work for me, because I provide them with a real life consequence of failing to do their job. I work for my Soldiers, ensuring they do not have to pay that price.
Somewhere along the line, Junior, Senior NCOs, Officers, Generals lost their backbone. We are in a serious business. Plagued by ineffective equipment, outdated policies, ludicrous new policy, worthless gear, and even worse; personnel who think I should make nice to them because there are real expectations of their performance.
I'm tired of hearing respect. Respect has nothing to do with following orders, directives, regulations, or otherwise. Respect has nothing to do with rank. Courtesy and respect are not the same. The hand salute WAS a form of respect, among warriors. I can salute a PFC, as a symbol of respect, admiration, gratitude or whatever I want to have it mean. I can salute someone I despise on a personal level and be courteous because it is demanded by my higher authority, and I will obey. The day Joe stopped getting absolutely destroyed for being out of line; the day Joe's feelings came into the order of fighting and winning wars, WE lost all ability to control our people as we did before. The NCO and Officer Corps have been repeatedly neutered, and restrained because of incidents we became embarassed to have done. There are countless cases of scumbags defaming and trashing our Corps; but rather than do the Hard Right, we chose the scapegoat, the easy way out, and the "We'll make it better, I promise," routine. Rather than post that person out front and prove to the world we let a piece of garbage fly under the radar and do us wrong, and decide we're going to fix that guy so no one has to deal with it ever again; we have elected to find a million reasons why someone else failed. Point the finger at the guy. Get some accountability for people's actions, quit blaming NCOs and Officers for everyone else's screwups. Blame the culprit, punish it, rebuild it or kick it out. Discipline starts with making everyone understand, you fail, PEOPLE die. NCOs and Officers work darn hard to keep their Soldiers alive and fighting as our commanders order. No where in there does it say, play nice. We carry guns and body armor. No more nice. Get real.

[USCavScout]

the reason so many of our younger soldiers are not disciplined? "us, the NCO."

our younger soldiers have lost their moral pathway with regards to doing the right thing. i teach at the WLC now and i see it all the time. this is not a failure of the soldier....it is a failure in leadership. we demand so much of our soldiers but we dont give them the tools or the time to master their skills before we take them off on another tangent.

when someone enters my classroom, they find out that they are not going to be treated like dirt. they are treated as sergeants, regardless of the rank that they actually hold. the are called sergeant, they are given classes on how to be sergeants and they find that i dont pencil-whip a damn thing for them.

i expect the highest from each and every WLC student you send me. i go out of my way to make certain that the "failure" puts the time in to become a "pass", even if only the minimum, but i work with them, as do my peers. my day starts when i roll out of bed at 0300 and am on site at 0400 for formation at 0600, so i am certain that my materials and such are ready.

your soldiers deserve the same from you. just because you have advanced to E5/E6/E7 does not MAKE you right. you have to be right. rank does not give you an excuse to retire-on-active-duty, rather it should make you aware of your duty to be there, on the ground, awaiting your soldiers. rank should motivate you to listen to your soldier, counsel your soldier, mentor your soldier.

how many of my peers even use the counseling statement correctly....think about it....a counseling statement can be to put-on-paper the fact that a soldier has done something that did not quite meet the MEDAL requirements, but a couple of these good counselings can be a basis to get the soldier "coined" the next time a CSM or officer come to visit...this can lead to a nicer medal (ARCOM instead of AAM) when the soldier PCSs.

take the time to get back to basics...get out the FM 6-22 and read what you were supposed to learn in WLC and BNCOC and ANCOC....live this manual and by golly, you will find that the undisciplined soldiers talked about are from "OTHER UNITS", not yours.

-TheSarge

Mentorship is folly when you lack the education to teach, train, or guide someone to a destination.

[Variable Wind]

Mentorship is folly when you lack the education to teach, train, or guide someone to a destination.

No, Mentorship is folly when you do not practice what you preach.

[hawk71049]

No, Mentorship is folly when you do not practice what you preach.

Just had to stop in and LMAO...
I will get back to you in due time, unlike you I have other pressing matters, It's called.. a day time job....lol

.

[GATEFAN]

Well I commissioned through ROTC, and I may not have 15+ years in, but I've been around long enough to see the lack of discipline and respect from junior and senior enlisted soldiers alike. I've also seen a lot of it from officers from 2LT all the way up to 4 star general. So it isn't just the enlisted who have this problem. But it's enlisted personnel mostly whom I've seen acting in such ways. Just because somebody has 15+ years TIS, doesn't mean they deserve such respect. And to answer a previous post I do correct improper actions I see soldiers doing. Because it's the right thing to do.

[1HardDI]

There are two ways to get respect, command it or demand it. Easy enough to figure out, right? Gatefan, as a SNCO that instructs and mentors student officers, you are right, a SNCO cannot give orders to an officer. Sounds as though you have a piss poor relationship with your SNCO. He should be giving you advice based on his experience, and you should be using his advice to fill gaps in your situational awareness to make educated decisions. He should be ensuring your decisions are carried out. He shouldn't be your lapdog, though. Patton once said "If everyone is thinking the same thing, someone isn't thinking."
As for me, the 286 officers in my company have been given guidance that "if the Company GySgt gives you a suggestion, you can take that as a task."
And for the original poster, one simple saying...no one will ever be as hard as you thought you were.

[Michaep]

Its entertaining when a Butter Bar "demands" respect from an E-9

Oh man.....thats hilarious, I've only witnessed it a few times but every time it gets me :)

[ringjamesa]

Well I commissioned through ROTC, and I may not have 15+ years in, but I've been around long enough to see the lack of discipline and respect from junior and senior enlisted soldiers alike. I've also seen a lot of it from officers from 2LT all the way up to 4 star general. So it isn't just the enlisted who have this problem. But it's enlisted personnel mostly whom I've seen acting in such ways. Just because somebody has 15+ years TIS, doesn't mean they deserve such respect. And to answer a previous post I do correct improper actions I see soldiers doing. Because it's the right thing to do.

I am going to throw the BS flag out there on this one. Yeah you are a gung ho jr officer. Congratulations. Seriously. It is an accoplishment and you should be proud. However to say that someone giving 15 years of their life to their country doesn't earn any respect in your not so humble opinion, that shows exactly who you are as a person and IMNSHO, you are probably getting exactly the respect you deserve. I would give you the respect you have earned by your rank and that is it. To sit there and say a few years of college has eared you respect but 15 years of service earns nothing? You sir have no idea what sacrifice is.

[Supernova]

Paygrade doesnt not equal respect. That is something that is earned.

A true leader has the confidence to stand alone, the courage to make tough
decisions, and the compassion to listen to the needs of others. He does not
set out to be a leader, but becomes one by the equality of his actions and
the integrity of his intent.

[older newbie]

ok this topic is not an easy one. im a second termer in the military, enlisted, and i was brought up by very old tradition catholics. so i do not profess to b a pro or expert in any field. no one will ever know everything, no matter how long they been in service. i can only give a look at both sides.
= ok military no matter what point in time is always going to have the reply"when i was in the military we did it like this, all the newbies are disrespectful and lacking respect. when i was in the military we actually fired a wepon to kill" younger ones will always have the reply"your so old fashioned its a new military get with the times. we push a button and kill" the military is CONSTANTLY changing and developing. ALWAYS taking HUGE strides forward and back. its run by and worked by HUMANS. i myself say"look at the lack of respect some of the booters have. if i were to say uh no im not going to sweep that floor,do you know how long i would of been walking crooked cuz my Chief was in my butt?" i do see the reponsibilities that both sides have. the JR will have more knowledge of the times and the job. thats because they are in it everyday. the know all the ins and outs. the O will have more on the "mind and workings". there are some TOTALLY rude E's and O's. what makes either one great and respectful is nothing to do with rank, attitude or homelife. what makes them great is the acceptance of what consequences of actions. a great one will always accept them. they own up to thier own and the JR actions. O's have been given the leadership, ability, responsibility to make great things happen, make great Jr's and NCO's. everyone learns what they are told, shown and done. leaders, mothers, friends all teach that. notice i said leaders. yes the Higher ups have an obiligation to JR's that is a part of the uniform. if you dnt want to get that chewing cuz ur guy messed up then get out! if that JR can accept thier chewin then get them out. doesnt matter ur place. we all die for eachother. ur Complete lack or acceptance for actions can kill everyone. mentally and physically. now who will do the job when we are all gone?
Discipline will never get respect. it does however make a person to afraid to do it cuz fear or reprisal. if they are not afraid they WILL do it. what is respect is NOT doing it period because it belittles U and the others. it goes against what you were taugh, learned and done. discipline makes people fear authority. for authority is the dealer. if was was told to go clean the toilet with a toothbrush and i knew i was going to get messed up if i didnt I WOULD DO IT. Not because u asked me to and i see u as a good person who cares, wants to help, make things better for me in military, will sit down and talk to me about my mothers health and mean it. its because i dont want jacked up teeth. i like food and talking without sucking down pain meds all day. u have to have a balance with discipline and acceptance"respect, basic human respect". how many of u respected thier fathers? not feared but think they are the greatest man to be in your life? thats because he knew to tell u were wrong, with words and yes if that bad a beatin to the behind. but he also knew that he cant punish u for something u didnt know. that if he didnt lead u, show u, go out and mow the lawn with u that will loose ur way. and hey he doesnt want to be cutting grass when he can be fixing other things. that is where leadership comes in. u have to lead and teach. then if they mess up disipline. with paper, words, and if it goes that far and that MESSED up actions.
i have more respect for my NCO than i do for O. he knows what it was like, to be the one getting orders. to receive the chewin. what its like to get dirty, sweaty, hungry and tired. not the O. he doesnt experience any of that. so how can a person in that position tell me he knows what it like to be in my place. He didnt have to earn what he got. he got it cuz he went to school got accepted and recieved rank. i could do the same thing. if he were to work for it, received it cuz he knew it then its differnt. people respect others because they will get out there and do the same thing that they are bieng told to do. treat JR like they are HUMANS and not free labor and"lower class".
people like it when u tell them they messed up with out making them look or feel stupid. give them a path a direction to go in. but give them a flashlight! no one is the same, in words, actions, beliefs etc. you start to blanket then that is where things go wrong.
people can blame society, news, video games, lack of discipline at home. its all going to be the reason some one can be irrresponsible. but in the end its that person accepting own self and actions. the ones who are in leadership places play a big role. Jr will look to Jr for guidance and leadership, right thing. O will look to O. u have to be able to follow to lead. like old saying monkey see monkey do.

[tankgunner]

A lot of our new recruits come into the army with many goals and dreams, but the problems is that many of them either don't like to follow orders, don't seem to grasp the reality of authority. Some soldiers really don't deserve to wear the uniform and it seems that the recruiters are just bringing everything they can find on the streets these days.

I read a lot about how the younger generation of military personnel isn't as disciplined and shows less respect to those of senior rank.

I think there are basically two reasons for this:

1. Elimination of physical counseling.

2. America's general elimination of a class-based society.

On point one: There used to be a time where people were put in their place by taking a walk out back or in the forward locker. I know that it went too far too many times. But, it did keep people in line.

On point two: In the ages prior to WWII officers were generally of noble blood. The common soldiers and sailors were generally peasants (for lack of a better word).

Everyone knew their station in life. There were written and unwritten social rules about how to speak, eat and so on. Peasants rarely became officers. The civilian social structure was echoed in the military.

Then WWII came. Millions of Americans from all walks of life (as in all social classes) were thrust into positions that they otherwise wouldn't have had the opportunity to take.

The post WWII era saw a huge change in the social classes of America. As the years go on there becomes very little to separate the rich from the poor. The rich aren't beyond the law anymore. The poor can afford big screen TVs.

So, a poor kid joins the military and sees higher ranking people and thinks "They're no better than I am" and acts like it.

And due to point number one above, not much can be done about it except paperwork and extra duty.

Do you agree?[/QUOTE]

[Michaep]

tankgunner.....Officers are NOT noble blood.....I am NOT a slave owned by them...."All men are created equal".....

get a clue

[ChiefB]

Paygrade doesnt not equal respect. That is something that is earned.

A true leader has the confidence to stand alone, the courage to make tough
decisions, and the compassion to listen to the needs of others. He does not
set out to be a leader, but becomes one by the equality of his actions and
the integrity of his intent.

Very well said, SN, very well indeed.

ChiefB

[ChiefB]

Ah...okay, now I got you.

Well, first, I completely disagree with your starting premise that military discipline has broken down. Today's military is probably the most disciplined in US History.

That "impression" generally comes from older veterans who remember walking up hill in 10 miles of snow, both ways, to basic training...

While I'm sure some new "offenses" have been invented...I think you'd be hard pressed to look through hisotry and find a war-time military more disciplined than today's...

"That "impression" generally comes from older veterans who remember walking up hill in 10 miles of snow, both ways, to basic training..."


Yeah, and we got our first pair of boots at "Boot Camp" we all walked around, backward, for three days looking at the footprints....

ChiefB

[ChiefB]

I will start by saying I am new to the military. I just reached my year enlistment date yesterday actually and have spent a good deal of that time in training. I am twenty years old and have no parents or siblings who have served, I am saying all of this so that you know that I have very little experience with the military.

I just wanted to add my two cents and that is that whether there is a lack of discipline in the military or not compared to the military of the past, in my limited experience for the most part the members serving are still the best that america has to offer and also for the most part are more disciplined then anyone I have ever worked with. I am a reservist, and so I worked active duty in seasoning training for 3 months and was impressed with the level of discipline shown by my active duty counterparts most of the time.

Because I was in seasoning training I moved around to the different sections of my AFSC throughout my time and I can say the level of discipline shown was a direct reflection of the NCO's in charge of the section. So if any NCO's are complaining about how the younger generation is behaving maybe they should take a look at how they run their shop.

A seasoned thought from a FNG!...Nicely put. And you said it without rancor or name-calling or meaness. I even detected a little humility...well done, Airman!

ChiefB

[ChiefB]

The problem that is mentioned here is very common. I am an Assistant Scoutmaster for a Boy Scout troop. The boys join the troop and have no idea what respect is. My policy is they learn respect or they get out. By the time they are 14, I have them saying yes sir and no sir regularly.

I think that the root of the problem is that parents don't push their children out of the nest and try to shield them from all the bad things in the world. This causes us to have twenty year olds with no job, no driver's permit, no car, and no plans for the future.

These people don't know how to act in society and as a result, cause negative changes to the society. Of my scouts, all over 15 have jobs, all over 14 play sports and are in clubs at school. The current rate of Eagle Scouts from this group is unbelievable. Out of 150 scouts in 18 years, 30 Eagles.

The program instills discipline in the scouts. They need it because they don't get it at home. And in case you are wondering, I am 18 and going to college to be a USN officer.

Nice post. It's been a year now. I'd be interested to hear how you are doing in your pursuit of your goal. (I have a 17 year old "Eagle candidate" right behind you.)

ChiefB

[ChiefB]

Well, I've read all 229 posts on this thread and other than it being created by a neanderthal it reflects a pretty broad spectrum of hate, prejudice, envy, bigotry, inexperience, solid leadership skills, broad experience, pride, esprit', myth and some naivete'.

That said, it pretty well sums up the responses you would expect of each generation, in succession, back to the Revolutionary war. Now is no different than then in the arena of discipline and compliance..

Discipline is always in the "eye" of the beholder. You can't smell it, feel it or taste it. But when you see it, you know it. Its when the Lt. jumps when the Sgt. "jumpmaster" says "Jump" and doesn't question his "authority" to give him an order/direction. Its when the Capt. ducks when the platoon Sgt. yells "Duck!", its when all hands react when the loadspeaker erupts with "Abandon ship!" Its when the Pilot complies when the Air Traffic Controller directs that he "Go Around!". Its when the Sgt. complies when the Lt. yells "Follow me!". Discipline is the end reaction to a given direction/order in a way one is TRAINED to react.

Now, who says there is a "Breakdown in discipline in the military"?

"Bitching" is not a sign of a lack of discipline. It is a sign of frustration, powerlessness, etc. and is a soldier's inalienable right in dealing with his environment.

Don't confuse "Bitching" with a failure of "Discipline" or we all here could be accused of being just about the most undisciplined bastards on the planet.

"Questioning" is not a lack of discipline, it is a lack of clarity in the instruction or order given. It is laziness on the part of the giver to provide a reason within the order. "We have a fire, get the hoses." vice "Get the hoses, now!"

How about... "Soldier, when you failed to clean your weapon prior to coming to the range, that is unacceptable and can get you killed, now clean it properly." vice, "Soldier. why the hell didn't you clean your weapon?"

Insubordination has to be dealt with by the offended not the offended's boss.

Disrespect has to be dealt with by the disrespected not the offender's boss.

Passing the buck or "ratting" out the offender to the boss will demonstrate weakness and engender disrespect in return.

But, most importantly, showing disrespect in return while you attempt to correct the situation will just perpetuate the offense and a failure of "discipline".

Discipline of the highest order does currently exist as demonstrated by our servicemember willingness and successes in serving with great honor in two wars that, arguably, have been harder to prosecute than any America has ever experienced outside of Korea and Vietnam.

Sailors and Airmen take orders from Army NCOs down range directly correlated to the TRAINING they received prior to their arrival. Discipline then, is directly in the hands of the Army NCO, not anyone else. He has to enforce it, demonstrate it and demand it. The Sailor or Airman will demonstrate it based on the expertise of the Army NCO.

There is no magic bullet here, discipline and compliance are a resulting function of the quality and expertise, finesse' and ability of the LEADER. Subordinates will reflect this fact.


ChiefB

[vikingsrule]

Personally, I think the army has gotten soft. All I hear is "You can't yell at a soldier" or "you can't smoke soldiers anymore" As early as 2000 when I joined the army, I did what I was told, period. I didn't back talk the NCOs I had, yeah some I hated, but I still respected the rank they wore.

NCOs as a whole need to get their heads out of their rear ends and start disciplining these soldiers. I'm not talking about PTing them until they cry, I mean train them. Get back to the basics, like if you have some free time, take them and do some D&C, some warriors task and drills, something! Teach your senior E-4s and even some NCOs how to properly do counselings. I read a post on a different site that said he was e-mailed his counseling! WTF is that?

Another reason I think we have lost discipline is how the army has lowered its standards to join. Do you think a 40 year old private wants to listen to a 21 year old SGT? Our new soldiers don't even have to pass an APFT or qualify at a real range in basic or ait!

There are many more reasons why I think we have gotten soft, bu there are way too many to list...

SSG W

[ringjamesa]

Personally, I think the army has gotten soft. All I hear is "You can't yell at a soldier" or "you can't smoke soldiers anymore" As early as 2000 when I joined the army, I did what I was told, period. I didn't back talk the NCOs I had, yeah some I hated, but I still respected the rank they wore.

NCOs as a whole need to get their heads out of their rear ends and start disciplining these soldiers. I'm not talking about PTing them until they cry, I mean train them. Get back to the basics, like if you have some free time, take them and do some D&C, some warriors task and drills, something! Teach your senior E-4s and even some NCOs how to properly do counselings. I read a post on a different site that said he was e-mailed his counseling! WTF is that?

Another reason I think we have lost discipline is how the army has lowered its standards to join. Do you think a 40 year old private wants to listen to a 21 year old SGT? Our new soldiers don't even have to pass an APFT or qualify at a real range in basic or ait!

There are many more reasons why I think we have gotten soft, bu there are way too many to list...

SSG W

While I love your handle...the Vikings do indeed rule...I couldn't disagree with you more. yes the Army and the military in general are different but we are not lacking disipline. As far as the standards go, yes the Army has lowered their standards considerably in the last few years but if you look at it in a historical context, standards have been MUCH lower. Yes they were waiving felonys but what is considered a felony these days isn't the same as it once was (often determined by old tables using dollar amounts and fines and values of damaged property has increased significantly since most of these laws were passed). At least they aren't taking people straight from court where their option is jail or the Army/USMC...they used to do that. Now they are waiving convictions where all conditions of the sentance have been completed. Yeah they have lowered their ASVAB standards but they used to have a DRAFT...
So you are telling me that the army is better off with people that are there against their will or just to escape jail? I think not...

[ryan8591]

Boy, the good old days when rich white males could beat on the rest of us...

Are you serious?

lol i know who did it