How the Enlisted Force Structure broke the Air Force

[weazlefuzion]

I posted this recently on the Enlisted Forums here: http://www.afforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15889, but thought I'd get the input of this community as well. This is what is wrong with discipline in the Air Force. The USA and USMC don't have problems on our scale because their training has not become "progressive", "forward-thinking", and politically correct.

The post follows, in a revised form, though 90% of the post has remained in tact.
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So people say the Air Force is broken. Some say the Air Force isn't broken. I'm going to spill my rant here and I'm hoping some of you have insight to offer and maybe have the stripes to pass something up the Chain of Command that inherently fails me.

You know what CMSAF recently told a Chief at my base? He says that one the big problems the AF has is that the lower enlisted is a bunch of whiners. The second I heard that, I almost pissed myself in disbelief. Are you going to blame a 60-year old organization's failures on the members who have been around for 5 years or less?

If the Air Force is broken in any manner, it's broken in the junior-enlisted portion of the Force Structure. This is not the fault of the junior enlisted however; the blame lies with those who write and enforce doctrine for our rank structure, and consequently with AETC and BMT. Here's the rationale:

I'm an E-4. If I tell an E-3 that his uniform is wrong, or he needs to do something differently, I get eye rolls and noises resembling a deflating balloon. Most of them don't even care that something is wrong, let alone care about fixing it at the behest of someone else in the "Airman Tier". They'd rather bitch about how their PT shorts "look gay", about having to go to morning PT, about having to work more than 8 hours a day, or about that asshole SrA who thinks his stripe means something. That stripe does mean something, or at least it's supposed to.

This doesn't only apply to uniform discrepancies either. It applies everywhere. I've even seen people totally ignore an NCO because "they're retarded", "he's not my boss", and "he's only an E-5 because he passed a test". The worst problem is, the last part is true. Our promotion system is what has destroyed the NCO corps.

And this, my friends, is what's wrong with the Air Force. The Air Force has bred a corporate culture where the guy in R&D doesn't care what the supervisor in Human Resources says to him. It's bred a culture where Quality of Life outweighs the mission. It's bred a culture where you'll get by just fine as long as you aren't screwing up, nevermind your wingman who can't pass a PT test. It hazes Airmen for 6 weeks, making them scared blind of anything that moves, before allowing them to totally turn around and re-enforce the rebelliousness of most enlistees below 21yrs old because they have no one directly above them to follow and no one below them to lead for.

The above rant may seem vague, so I'm going to try to break this down and outline what I believe are solutions. Yes, even a lowly E-4 can provide solutions. It doesn't take a college degree to lead and mold people.

BMT/AETC - Basic training needs to change and extending it will certainly help, if done correctly. Of course hazing is part of it; it forces someone to break down enough to be molded, but it has to cool down before the molding begins. When I got out of basic training, I still didn't really know the difference between an officer or an enlisted person. I didn't know what any of the different ranks did or where they fell in the big picture. Hell, I didn't even know what leave was. I barely learned how to wear my uniform. Airman need to be relentlessly bombarded with their duties as prescribed by AFI 36-2618 and should be highly "encouraged" to follow those duties. Maybe trainees should become Airmen and receive their rank a week or two before graduation, like maybe before this new BEAST in BMT, so they can be mentored on how to correctly lead their fellow Airmen.

All of my tech-school training was joint-service, so when I arrived at my first training base, I realized how little I knew about my service compared what other branches' members knew about theirs. The other services progress through basic training earning things they didn't have. Marines, for instance, have to button the top button on their blouse for the first week. It makes them stand out as new recruits because they have to earn the right to look like a Marine. Instead of earning my boots, my TI played the role of a child saying "Haha retard, now you're in the military, put these on," or "Now you have to actually exercise, too bad." The same goes for AETC and all the training I've done. Everyone was simply told "This is the military, get used to it!"

This is not how you train someone to be proud of what they do and be loyal to the organization. Airmen should feel as if they had to earn what they've got, not that it was forced on them because they accidentally signed an enlistment contract. A few rather simple changes in BMT and training doctrine would automatically create yet-to-be-seen loyalty and pride among new recruits.

Enlisted Force Structure - This is the worst part of it all. Even if BMT sucked, it could be fixed by a proper lower-rank structure, however, the proper structure needs to be instilled while in training, and so begins the vicious cycle.

Why does rank not matter among most E-1 through E-4 Airmen? This is the biggest problem, because it eventually permeates up the pay-scale. Leadership needs to be encouraged of all Airmen from the beginning. The AF currently doesn't do that because of the politically correct regulations in BMT that say "don't punish the group because of the individual". What incentive, then, does an Airman have to correct a peer on how his uniform looks when he can just say "Whatever, it's his ass, not mine," or what incentive does an Airman have to listen to his peers if he can say "It's my problem, not yours!" However, if he knew that when an NCO saw that, the entire flight would be doing early morning open ranks, he'd be more likely to fall in line. Same goes for the fat guy next door and the entire unit doing unit PT until everyone passes. Obviously, it can get excessive and maybe the fat guy should have to go to a different session with other fat people, but you get the point. It is rarely only the one exception.

If Airmen were to lead starting from the lowly E-1, and required to experience the "shit rolls downhill" mentality, then standards would be enforced. If the E-3 could confidently walk up to a peer, or a subordinate, whether or not they're in the same shop or unit, and say "get yourself together", then we wouldn't be handing out LORs to Flag Officers for the E-4 who plays cellphone games while guarding a nuclear weapon. The General didn't play a part in training that Airman on the fundamental level, he relied on AETC to do so and AETC failed the organization, and the General, because the Enlisted Force Structure only requires those new E-1s to be seen and not heard. I am confident that he would have been corrected in that instance, or been caught sooner by peers who had pride in what they were doing and knew they had a duty to correct him.

What needs to be done is instilling the duty of leadership in every Airman, regardless of rank while giving Airmen the power to make corrections. It starts with returning the E-4 to NCO, to show a leadership presence in the lower tier and it continues with making every Amn realize that every A1C outranks him significantly, with a full stripe, and that it's that A1Cs responsibility to ensure the Amn's compliance with standards.

[CrustySMSgt]

Pretty insightful post!

I remember back in the day... 22 years ago, working at Hahn AB. During exercises, on the posting bus; when it was time to get off the bus, it was all about date of rank... lol Sucked for the 4 year enlistees... been at the base for over a year and the 6-year enlistee A1C n00b who just got there last month got to stay on the warm bus and you had to get off and hump in the rain. Definitely illustrated the significance of rank.

For the most part, your post makes sense to me. Keep doing the right thing and doing what you can to influence those around you. For those that don't get it, they won't get far.

[weazlefuzion]

Pretty insightful post!

I remember back in the day... 22 years ago, working at Hahn AB. During exercises, on the posting bus; when it was time to get off the bus, it was all about date of rank... lol Sucked for the 4 year enlistees... been at the base for over a year and the 6-year enlistee A1C n00b who just got there last month got to stay on the warm bus and you had to get off and hump in the rain. Definitely illustrated the significance of rank.

For the most part, your post makes sense to me. Keep doing the right thing and doing what you can to influence those around you. For those that don't get it, they won't get far.

Thanks, I just wish that if I were to go about enforcing rank the way the military should (the way the USMC does), that most leadership, and even senior leadership at Air Staff would not have my back. I have a feeling that I'm left with two choices here: join the Army, or join Marine Corps

[AF Chief]

I agree with you on a lot of your points here. I have argued that point about Airmen being able to tell Airmen what to do. The problem is they will roll their eyes if a SNCO tells them to do the same thing! I am surprised you don't get called a couple of 4-letter words outloud. I am not a idiot, I know they call me the same words for correcting their behavior (but its under their breath). I remember when I was SrA and a Buck Sgt (both of us E4s) told me to do something, I was like, "Yes Sir!". Gone are those days and the AF is trying to bring that mentality back. I am all for it. I for one am tired of trying to explain every order I hand out in the accomplishment of the mission or telling you how to meet standards!

For instance, I can't count how many times I have have caught people parking in a "CMSGT SLOT" on base. The first thing they do is say, "Oh, I didn't see that." Of freaking please! Its posted in BOLD letters right in front of the BX, Commissary, etc...). So, this lack of discipline not only gives them the balls to actually park in a CMSgt slot, but to lie about it as well! WTH? When I was a Chief-select I wouldn't even think of parking in a Chief slot. #1 I knew it was wrong (as I hadn't sewed on yet) and #2 I was generally afraid of having a Chief chew my a$$. But, today, it don't phase these young Airmen. That comes from leadership being too soft in the past. Now we are yanking in the reigns and we are seen as the BAD GUYS. The UNCOOL SNCOS that are enforcing the standards...the Dicks. If only they knew where we were coming from.

I tell my people, you might not excel beyound the standard, but YOU WILL AT MINIMUM MEET THE STANDARD. You have no option there.

[CrustySMSgt]

I agree with you on a lot of your points here. I have argued that point about Airmen being able to tell Airmen what to do. The problem is they will roll their eyes if a SNCO tells them to do the same thing! I am surprised you don't get called a couple of 4-letter words outloud. I am not a idiot, I know they call me the same words for correcting their behavior (but its under their breath). I remember when I was SrA and a Buck Sgt (both of us E4s) told me to do something, I was like, "Yes Sir!". Gone are those days and the AF is trying to bring that mentality back. I am all for it. I for one am tired of trying to explain every order I hand out in the accomplishment of the mission or telling you how to meet standards!

For instance, I can't count how many times I have have caught people parking in a "CMSGT SLOT" on base. The first thing they do is say, "Oh, I didn't see that." Of freaking please! Its posted in BOLD letters right in front of the BX, Commissary, etc...). So, this lack of discipline not only gives them the balls to actually park in a CMSgt slot, but to lie about it as well! WTH? When I was a Chief-select I wouldn't even think of parking in a Chief slot. #1 I knew it was wrong (as I hadn't sewed on yet) and #2 I was generally afraid of having a Chief chew my a$$. But, today, it don't phase these young Airmen. That comes from leadership being too soft in the past. Now we are yanking in the reigns and we are seen as the BAD GUYS. The UNCOOL SNCOS that are enforcing the standards...the Dicks. If only they knew where we were coming from.

I tell my people, you might not excel beyound the standard, but YOU WILL AT MINIMUM MEET THE STANDARD. You have no option there.


On target Chief... the same reason they walk & talk on ther cell phone/eat/drink/smoke, carry a red backpack, wear white socks, and all the rest... because it is their way of thumbing their nose at the system and knowing there is a 90% chance no one is going to confront them. And if thar are confronted, they claim ignorance, roll their eyes and go back to doing whatever they were doing calling you an a-hole under their breath. :rolleyes:

We need to band together as SNCOs and take back control... I'm all for correcting genuine mistakes... but when I know their full of doo-doo and giving me attitude, I call my fellow SNCO in their unit and hand their carcass to them to deal with and to ensure they are held accountable!

[proud2bblue]

Great posts and some really good points. I am amazed at the looks and attitude you get for correcting people. Man, black socks don't even look cool with the PT gear, but some of our troops love them. As far as how things work in the USMC, now I have total respect for them, but the O's have way to much power and the E's are not allowed to think. I have been in 3 joint units and see the same thing everywhere. Now, some of these USMC officers are also some of the best I have ever worked with, but I also earned my rank and will not be dismissed or left out of decisions because I am enlisted. So they can keep that.

[Measure Man]

Man, black socks don't even look cool with the PT gear, but some of our troops love them.

...probably from Jersey City...all the Jersey City kids used to come down the shore with shorts, black socks and sneakers...LOL

[weazlefuzion]

We seem to at least have some sort of consensus here. The next logical step is, what will be done about it? I see a lot of lip service at Air Staff about the "back to basics" thing, but it seems like the same stuff came out regarding the Core Values, the Airmen's Creed, and a few other things that haven't changed.

As far as I'm concerned this is the #1 issue the Air Force has. It leads directly to the mishandling of the nuclear weapons, the whiney bitching about uniforms and standards, and the generic lack of discipline. Is the NCO Corps even on the agenda up there, or is some General looking to start another pet-project and leave his mark for the sake of legacy?

[CMSBROWN]

On target Chief... the same reason they walk & talk on ther cell phone/eat/drink/smoke, carry a red backpack, wear white socks, and all the rest... because it is their way of thumbing their nose at the system and knowing there is a 90% chance no one is going to confront them. And if thar are confronted, they claim ignorance, roll their eyes and go back to doing whatever they were doing calling you an a-hole under their breath. :rolleyes:

We need to band together as SNCOs and take back control... I'm all for correcting genuine mistakes... but when I know their full of doo-doo and giving me attitude, I call my fellow SNCO in their unit and hand their carcass to them to deal with and to ensure they are held accountable!

Chief and Senior you are both on track and on TARGET. Part of the problem I see as well is a breakdown of our SNCO's and NCO's being afraid to correct the lower enlisted, the officers or fellow NCO's. There is an attitude that someone else will correct them. BULL HOCKEY! You are an NCO....someone steps on their peepee by violating and AFI, policy or procedure....they should be on it like most rickety tick. That is the biggest part of the problem. I was the Base Chief for Kirkuk Regional Air Base...I was given alot of names...LOL! But I didnt care what people thought of me....I corrected every uniform infraction, every policy violation, every procedure being violated. Why? Cause it is my job as an SNCO. Turn a blind eye...never. But I did notice the demeanor of those troops I corrected during the months change for the positive cause they new I cared. I was also correcting officers to include field grade on their infractions. But I did it with tact. Occasionally I would get attitude but I would say...You may not like the regulations but you are in the military and you are required to follow them. Get it done!

My troops I lead back homestation WILL have spit-shined boots until they purchase the new uniform. Their uniform will be highly pressed and they will maintian hair within standards. Alot of them shave their heads cause I do. LOL!

I agree Senior...you chew some butt when you send them on their way you call their NCOIC or Supt and tell them you did it...give that troop a double whammy....and also puts his NCO on the spot becuase of unit embarrassment.

I still remember to this day when I was 15 years old and my dad was stationed at Malmstrom....he and I walked out fo the BX and I turned and my dad was gone...I was like where did he go? He bolted across the parking lot after a troop who didnt have his head gear on and lit him a new one....I was like wow! That was 29 years ago.

I have been in 26 years and still trucking till they tell me to go. HOOAH!

[MrMiracle]

I often think about these sorts of things, why the opinions of seniors don’t seem to matter to airmen. When I was enlisted, though, I made an observation that a few peers at multiple levels have confirmed:

“There are two kinds of NCOs in the Air Force: those that get respect, and those that have to talk about being entitled to it.”

Seeing more of the AF now, I find that this applies not only to NCOs, but to everyone; enlisted and officer. Everyone has a highly inscrutable beam of criticism that allows them to examine the faults of others. But the individual who does not have to remind others that they are entitled to respect is the one who is able to turn this beam on themselves.

In my own time as enlisted I watched the very people who insisted that they were exempt from scrutiny from any lower level make unbelievable fools and spectacles of themselves. An E-4 who chided an E-3 for confronting him in the maintenance truck would not long after press a charged air ratchet against a subordinates back and pull the trigger. A Staff who observed this exchange would only confirm the hilarity of the situation while many others looked on. How much damage did this SrA and Staff do to not only themselves, but their entire rank? How much respect could these two individuals really command after doing such a thing?

I learned quite quickly who to go to for advice in those times. It was quite apparent which NCOs had developed actual wisdom from their experiences and which ones could do little more than parrot cliches.

I’d say more, but dwelling on such events leaves me unpleasant. And I have other things that occupy the rest of my day.

[sigecaps]

I do see a breakdown in junior NCOs leading, but I don't think you can place the fault squarely on them. It is AF culture to breed weak NCOs. I've posted my comments on this matter before. The AF for better or worse breeds a culture that doesn't respect command until someone is a SSgt. So how can you reasonably expect young NCOs to be such strong leaders when they have hardly any experience in command and leadership?

I first noticed this stark contrast when I was at DLI, a joint training base. I noticed that the Airmen, myself included, didn't respect any command unless given by a rope or MTL. In contrast I noticed the Marine Corps, didn't have ropes because anyone who outranked you could issue you a command and you would be expected to follow it. Yes, I've seen PFCs (E-2s) tell PVTs (E-1s) that their uniform looks like shit and they need to run back to the barracks to fix it, and they did. If an E-2 walked up to me and told me something like that back in tech school I would have laughed in his face and kept on walking.

So I disagree with the solution that we need to tweak the promotion system. This is a culture problem. A problem that starts from not respecting command until someone is a SSgt and extends to unreasonable expectations that NCOs will be strong leaders on day one or even year one. Unfortunately problems of these sorts, cultural and systemic problems, are difficult to fix. And like the promotion system itself (which I agreed is flawed but not directly related), I don't see the AF dedicating the resources to fixing it.

[weazlefuzion]

I do see a breakdown in junior NCOs leading, but I don't think you can place the fault squarely on them. It is AF culture to breed weak NCOs. I've posted my comments on this matter before. The AF for better or worse breeds a culture that doesn't respect command until someone is a SSgt. So how can you reasonably expect young NCOs to be such strong leaders when they have hardly any experience in command and leadership?

I first noticed this stark contrast when I was at DLI, a joint training base. I noticed that the Airmen, myself included, didn't respect any command unless given by a rope or MTL. In contrast I noticed the Marine Corps, didn't have ropes because anyone who outranked you could issue you a command and you would be expected to follow it. Yes, I've seen PFCs (E-2s) tell PVTs (E-1s) that their uniform looks like shit and they need to run back to the barracks to fix it, and they did. If an E-2 walked up to me and told me something like that back in tech school I would have laughed in his face and kept on walking.

So I disagree with the solution that we need to tweak the promotion system. This is a culture problem. A problem that starts from not respecting command until someone is a SSgt and extends to unreasonable expectations that NCOs will be strong leaders on day one or even year one. Unfortunately problems of these sorts, cultural and systemic problems, are difficult to fix. And like the promotion system itself (which I agreed is flawed but not directly related), I don't see the AF dedicating the resources to fixing it.

Thanks for the reply, and I agree with much of this. I went to the DLI as well, so that's where I started to notice the differences in Force Structure. Though I do believe changing the promotion system to rely more on military leadership ability, even with our extremely technical jobs, I think the simplest thing we can do is change basic training a bit. If Airmen are granted their rank before graduation (another thing Marines do), they could spend that week-long FTX being mentored on how to properly lead others based on rank, even in simple matters of uniform standards.

[VFFSSGT]

Nicely said, weazelfusion! I think everything you said boils down to one simple phrase I started a while back..."lack of discipline," except you articulate much better than myself.. Discipline is not instilled in BASIC or Tech School and the few that try to instill it in the "real" Air Force are circumvented by the many who treat this as a social club, high school, or whatever you want to compare it to. I don't believe we came up with a solid answer other than continue to influence those around you....

I really think the best solution would be make it a lot easier to kick people out and start putting out the ones that do not conform to military standards. When people fear their job a little more they will straighten up, but when the AF is essentially set-up to let you get by being lazy or speak how you please to a superior, there is no real motivation to have discipline.

I do know there are plenty of Americans looking for a job and I am sure many of them wouldn’t mind the Air Force and would conform to the military standards. It needs to start with BASIC training and them putting out the ones that have no business in the military… If someone believes that idiot will turn out as a good troop one day if given the chance – they probably should be kicked out!!!!

It is time we start putting out those who do not conform and get the ones that will conform in. Stop worrying about stats!

I am all about an Amn telling a subordinate Amn what to do...it was how I was "raised" along with conforming to standards and having respect for superiors. Now, I am the "uncool" or "dick-head" NCO...because I am not laid back as is what seems to be 80% of the force.

Maybe instead of safety days, fun days, sports days, picnics, booster club, heritage days, internet surfing, etc... we should have military standards days or week.... Do some formation marching, parades, open ranks, etc... you know bring some military back into the military - this might be a start. 0730 roll call squadron formations too...or whatever time you report

[BRUWIN]

we should have military standards days or week.... Do some formation marching, parades, open ranks, etc... you know bring some military back into the military - this might be a start. 0730 roll call squadron formations too...or whatever time you report[/B][/SIZE]

Damn...that's a lot of waivers I'll need to get in my medical records. Still...it's very doable.

[Combat correspondent]

For the first time EVER, I agree with everyone on this post! Awesome! Spot on target!

Keep it up Weazlefuzion --- you'll be one h$ll of an NCO if you make it and are still blue by then. You've got a good head on your shoulders.

[ramprat]

sounds like all of you have many years experience in the nco ranks.
first thing came to mind reading the posts was,WHERE have you guys been isolated??
it didnt happen over-night.
ncos run the day to day operations,the officers dont and its not the other guys fault
and youre right in the middle of it.
the change i noticed was promotion and then train to do the job.
prior to that you had to prove your worth and then be considered for a promotion.
if all voiced their concerns to the cmsgtaf about inflated performance reviews it may help in the future.
i venture none of you ever questioned a commander at commanders call.

[LogDog_guest]

On target Chief... the same reason they walk & talk on ther cell phone/eat/drink/smoke, carry a red backpack, wear white socks, and all the rest... because it is their way of thumbing their nose at the system and knowing there is a 90% chance no one is going to confront them. And if thar are confronted, they claim ignorance, roll their eyes and go back to doing whatever they were doing calling you an a-hole under their breath. :rolleyes:

We need to band together as SNCOs and take back control... I'm all for correcting genuine mistakes... but when I know their full of doo-doo and giving me attitude, I call my fellow SNCO in their unit and hand their carcass to them to deal with and to ensure they are held accountable!
That is the point, SNCOs have to take back control. The problem isn't with junior enlisted being whiners it's about SNCOs not understanding where they came from and how things are today. I know when I was in SNCOs weren't afraid of officers much less the junior enlisted. So you have to play the bad guy once in a while, big deal. That's expected of you and if you can't handle it then you don't deserve the chevrons on your sleeves. Rather than take the time to do their duty and actually lead as a SNCO some will try to avoid a situation and hope it comes out alright. Hey, we were all junior enlisted before and what we did was no different than what today's airmen are doing. The difference between when I came in in the 70s (I retired in 2003) is a SNCO wouldn't hesitate to get in your face or at least pull you aside and correct you. They'd also get involved and make sure you knew how, what, why, and when to do something. I'm afraid that when I was retiring, I saw too many SNCOs whose main concern was getting promoted and not leading or they were riding out their time until retirement. SNCOs need to get off their duffs and be SNCOs or step aside and let those with the ability to lead.

[MACHINE666]

We get the leadership we deserve, and when Senior NCOs won't allow their junior NCOs to lead a section despite being every bit qualified to do so, then it should come as no surprise that our system is broken.

At this stage in my career there are few battles I am willing to fight since I will invariably do it with one arm tied behind my back while being chopped off at the knees by those directly above me. We broke it, but we won't allow it to be fixed either. You'll have to excuse me Chief Brown if I fail to share your enthusiasm and points of view like the majority of folks here do.

[johca]

We get the leadership we deserve, and when Senior NCOs won't allow their junior NCOs to lead a section despite being every bit qualified to do so, then it should come as no surprise that our system is broken.Some clarification please. Are you saying the NCOIC position is vacant and unfilled or are you saying the lesser in rank and grade should be put in charge if the better fit and qualified to supervise than somebody in the work section having higher rank that is inept or less qualified?

[CMSBROWN]

We get the leadership we deserve, and when Senior NCOs won't allow their junior NCOs to lead a section despite being every bit qualified to do so, then it should come as no surprise that our system is broken.

At this stage in my career there are few battles I am willing to fight since I will invariably do it with one arm tied behind my back while being chopped off at the knees by those directly above me. We broke it, but we won't allow it to be fixed either. You'll have to excuse me Chief Brown if I fail to share your enthusiasm and points of view like the majority of folks here do.

This is very true....it is a military organization that is broken. It was broken by those officers and NCOs who were afraid. Afraid to put their boot in someone’s butt when it is needed. Afraid to hold a troop accountable for their actions or inactions. We were failed by upper echelon leadership who allowed the TIME OUT-STRESS cards in basic thus allowing a troop to have a voice to QUIT when the pressure is on. We were failed by a society who said...Dr. Spock is the best person on the world listen to him on how to raise your kids. Only for Dr. Spock to apologize years later that his methods screwed up our society. We are failed by a judicial system that says you touch your kid you go to jail. Our society is or has been producing lazy all I want to do is play video games sitting on my butt and never know what it is like to push your body to the limit until you get to basic. We can sit here and play the point the finger game all day long. But the system breaks only if you as an NCO or officer, or perhaps an up and coming airmen let it break. It will stay broken as long as said allows it to stay broken. I just recently returned from Iraq and I was blown away by some of the up and coming airmen, sr. airman trying to actually make a difference in the Air Force because they notice how it is and how it should be. They were mentoring the new airmen. They instilled military customs and courtesies, esprit de corps, and good old fashion military discipline in their daily duties. They were exceeding the standards of the AFI’s. Why do I think that is? Because they have a sense of worth over in the AOR. The feel like there job actually matters to them while in the AOR. They have NCOs and Officers that know if they do not lead these troops right in the AOR people can die. They know that the mission of the war fighter outside the wire depends on them and if they falter that the war fighter can die. There is nothing more sobering than a Ramp Ceremony for a fallen Hero. Back at home station…that is another story there is a different mindset and those up and coming airmen, NCOs and Officers need to tighten the boot straps and inserting it where it is needed and when it is need when the situation arises….not wait for someone else to do it. Whether we are in the AOR or in the rear we need to hold troops accountable from the top down. And with the latest accountability nuke fiasco I think we will start to see a slow trickle down to the lowest airman where the AF has started a change that is much needed. EVERYONE WILL BE ACCOUNTABLE for their actions.

[MACHINE666]

Some clarification please. Are you saying the NCOIC position is vacant and unfilled or are you saying the lesser in rank and grade should be put in charge if the better fit and qualified to supervise than somebody in the work section having higher rank that is inept or less qualified?

Not even. What I'm saying is when you have a Senior NCO who wants to decide how you will run a shop before you are even given the opportunity to prove yourself, and when you prove to be every bit as competent and capable, they still want to handle you with kid gloves. Or to "micromanage" is another way to put it I suppose, and pretty much ignore any input you have.

But yes, I've worked with inept people who were in the position only because they had the rank on their sleeve but not the booksmarts. One such person I knew when I was a Senior Airman and she was a Staff is now a SMSgt despite proving that she didn't know some of the most basic procedures or critical items for our job at that time. I was better qualified to run a section than she was, but due to my outspoken nature at the time, was more or less ignored and was instead branded as a malcontent. While she was always nice to me, there's no way I can look at her guidance as being accurate since the only thing that has changed is 15 years. The difference is that I didn't sell out and play 'the game' but chose my integrity over a paycheck.

Oh how foolish I was. Ultimately it's all about the paycheck...at least in my world now anyways.

[Gunner007]

Here is something me and some folks were brainstorming and wondered about.

It appears to us that the breakdown in discipline began when Buck went away. Some post had a guy talking about how E-1's didnt say yes sir when a SrA told them to jump back in the good ole days and that its been broke for so long etc etc...

Sorry, when i was a new Amn SrA & Bucks were God. They were in charge of the young Amn, we answered to them! I know i was there! Those Bucks cut their teeth leading the young kids and learning how to be effective at leading. After you cut your teeth you then got to become a SSgt. Buck went away then the learning curve got MUCH steeper. Someone in the group today said the USAF is the only branch whose E-4's are not NCO's.

We began thinking about it more and it seems with the great SSgt give away and not having Buck to give those SrA a chance to cut their teeth we basically eroded our NCO corp. People now view SSgt's as young and inexperienced and they many times dont trust them to do anything without oversight, ala micro management! It escalates from there!

One thing i am a HUGE fan of and have said in other threads, Amn doing details! We dont have them doing details anymore we have cleaning crews. The guys on here like to say how they arent to proud to take out trash as an NCO, thats missing the whole point of details! Details are our Amn's chance to learn leadership and decision making. Appointing the HRMF as the head of the detail and then making him your focal point shows the lower ranking that this guy is the boss, that he is empowered! He handles the detail and is them responsible to figure out how to motivate his troops and make it work. You provide mentorship along the way but DO NOT chip in and help! If you help then the lower ranking Amn see you as the boss, they bypass the SrA and go to you for order instead of him. He learns nothing and they learn a SrA dont mean shit!

The other perk is, if the SrA screws up the detail noone is likely injured or killed. If he screws up in combat or the AOR people could die! Those SrA need to learn decision making and leadership and details are about the only place it can happen. NCO's need to learn to assign work instead of doing so much of it! The young SrA should be the focal point in your shop for daily work assignments. Let them work with you and help mentor them as they make decisions. Teach them why certain things need to be looked at certain ways. Barking orders and assignments teaches them nothing and erodes their credibility as SrA, it erodes the power of the rank structure.
Its not about me being too good to do details. its about me being an NCO and leading, mentoring, and molding those Amn to take my position in a few years. We need them qualified when they become SSgts not after! If they have credibility the SNCO tier will take them more seriously and so will the officers. Once they begin to see your folks in a more competant light they will loosen the riegns and ease up on the micro management. It may never go away completely, some SNCOs only know micro management, others are willing to let you try and fail even at their own expense.

The enlisted force structure isnt broke but the way in which its being mentored and led is faulty!

[Gunner007]

sounds like all of you have many years experience in the nco ranks.
first thing came to mind reading the posts was,WHERE have you guys been isolated??
it didnt happen over-night.
ncos run the day to day operations,the officers dont and its not the other guys fault
and youre right in the middle of it.
the change i noticed was promotion and then train to do the job.
prior to that you had to prove your worth and then be considered for a promotion.
if all voiced their concerns to the cmsgtaf about inflated performance reviews it may help in the future.
i venture none of you ever questioned a commander at commanders call.

Part of the answer to this where was i, is related to my previous post regarding details. I for one think they are a great way to teach leadership. I use them but heres the problem. My E-9 seems to think NCOs are not to good to do details and should be involved, after all they helped dirty the building right? I can think what i want, i can know what i know and believe what i believe, the problem is when my E-9 says details are not for teaching leadership and respect for authority and NCOs will pitch in my hands are tied! The problem isnt that many of us arent trying its that the mangement doesnt like the song we sing or play!

[Gunner007]

That is the point, SNCOs have to take back control. The problem isn't with junior enlisted being whiners it's about SNCOs not understanding where they came from and how things are today. I know when I was in SNCOs weren't afraid of officers much less the junior enlisted. So you have to play the bad guy once in a while, big deal. That's expected of you and if you can't handle it then you don't deserve the chevrons on your sleeves. Rather than take the time to do their duty and actually lead as a SNCO some will try to avoid a situation and hope it comes out alright. Hey, we were all junior enlisted before and what we did was no different than what today's airmen are doing. The difference between when I came in in the 70s (I retired in 2003) is a SNCO wouldn't hesitate to get in your face or at least pull you aside and correct you. They'd also get involved and make sure you knew how, what, why, and when to do something. I'm afraid that when I was retiring, I saw too many SNCOs whose main concern was getting promoted and not leading or they were riding out their time until retirement. SNCOs need to get off their duffs and be SNCOs or step aside and let those with the ability to lead.

SNCOs have TOO much control! Micro management is a blight! When i was an Amn SNCOs didnt do much more than provide top cover, if a SNCO had to address an Amn for something you can bet there was a Tech, Staff and a Buck getting their asses handed to them for letting it happen or not correcting it! I remember rarely ever seeing our SNCOs out of their office. Techs ran the line, staffs ran the load crews and bucks ran the Amn and details. There was a clear chain and as an Amn i new my place in it! It wasnt until the late 90's i began seeing SNCO's roam the halls and correct issues, probably about the time bucks disappeared.

I think SNCO's need to go back to providing top cover and begin holding the Tech and Staff's accountable for doing their jobs as NCO's. Stay out of the ground floor day to day operations and look out for your folks. make that Tech or Staff correct the Amn, hold them accountable! Empower them and support them but also mentor them and correct them (techs and staffs).

Just my personal opinion btw.

[LogDog_guest]

SNCOs have TOO much control! Micro management is a blight! When i was an Amn SNCOs didnt do much more than provide top cover, if a SNCO had to address an Amn for something you can bet there was a Tech, Staff and a Buck getting their asses handed to them for letting it happen or not correcting it! I remember rarely ever seeing our SNCOs out of their office. Techs ran the line, staffs ran the load crews and bucks ran the Amn and details. There was a clear chain and as an Amn i new my place in it! It wasnt until the late 90's i began seeing SNCO's roam the halls and correct issues, probably about the time bucks disappeared.

I think SNCO's need to go back to providing top cover and begin holding the Tech and Staff's accountable for doing their jobs as NCO's. Stay out of the ground floor day to day operations and look out for your folks. make that Tech or Staff correct the Amn, hold them accountable! Empower them and support them but also mentor them and correct them (techs and staffs).

Just my personal opinion btw.
The problem you describe is either the SNCOs haven't learned to get their hands out of the details (dirty work) or they haven't learned how to manage people.

I've seen too often SNCOs who hate being in the office and want to do the hands-on work they had done for years. There's nothing wrong with lending a hand now and then but that should be rare and not an on-going thing. I know when I made E-7 I had to force myself to let my people do their job and not interfere with them. However, they also knew I wasn't afraid to get my hands dirty if they needed help.

SNCOs learn management in AF courses and by watching those they've worked for. The problem is they haven't really developed their own style and so the revert to micromanagement and try to take all the responsibility on themselves. All that does is shows your people you don't have any faith in them and when you do that it means you aren't taking an interest in them either. If you treat your troops like children then they won't disappoint you because that's they way they'll act, like children.

The point is we were trained and developed as airmen and NCOs to become SNCOs and just because you've become a SNCO doesn't mean your job to train and develop airmen and NCOs stops. It's an on-going process that will never stop as long as your in the military. So for all you SNCOs, if your not training and developing your airmen and NCOs to take your place when you retire then you're not doing your job.

[Gunner007]

The problem you describe is either the SNCOs haven't learned to get their hands out of the details (dirty work) or they haven't learned how to manage people.

I've seen too often SNCOs who hate being in the office and want to do the hands-on work they had done for years. There's nothing wrong with lending a hand now and then but that should be rare and not an on-going thing. I know when I made E-7 I had to force myself to let my people do their job and not interfere with them. However, they also knew I wasn't afraid to get my hands dirty if they needed help.

SNCOs learn management in AF courses and by watching those they've worked for. The problem is they haven't really developed their own style and so the revert to micromanagement and try to take all the responsibility on themselves. All that does is shows your people you don't have any faith in them and when you do that it means you aren't taking an interest in them either. If you treat your troops like children then they won't disappoint you because that's they way they'll act, like children.

The point is we were trained and developed as airmen and NCOs to become SNCOs and just because you've become a SNCO doesn't mean your job to train and develop airmen and NCOs stops. It's an on-going process that will never stop as long as your in the military. So for all you SNCOs, if your not training and developing your airmen and NCOs to take your place when you retire then you're not doing your job.

I think i agree with almost everything you said. One of the main reasons i think people (SNCOs) are so leery of getting their hands out of the process is because it is a one mistake AF. They are afraid if their troops mess up it will spell the end of their careers. They arent willing to take that risk, so in order to ensure they dont get screwed they try to keep themselves in the middle of everything.

I think SNCOs (in this case SMSgts and CMSgts) should mentor their replacements, but their replacements are not the junior tier guys they are those techs and MSgts. THey need to put in face time and show concern and care for all but spend less time worrying about what Amn snuffy is doing and more time worrying about what that tech or master is doing. Mentor them and prepare them to replace you, just as i mentor and prepare that staff or young airmen.

I do believe as you said that some of the issues are that these folks dont have a style of their own and management is all they know. Thats an issue i have with the PME system in the USAF, we expect a class to replace what should be occuring in the workplace. We get to said PME and have to endure weeks of how it should be done in the 'real AF" versus how its really done and then none of that PME means squat and we flush it once its over.

I think like you said, if we developed and mentored daily PME would be a waste of time. Not because its not how the real AF does it but because we do it already and there is no need to have a class to reteach it.

[Shrike]

It wasnt until the late 90's i began seeing SNCO's roam the halls and correct issues, probably about the time bucks disappeared.



The last promotions to Buck Sergeant were 1 May 1991. Anyone still wearing buck sergeant in the late '90's would have been considered a joke.

[Measure Man]

I think i agree with almost everything you said. One of the main reasons i think people (SNCOs) are so leery of getting their hands out of the process is because it is a one mistake AF. They are afraid if their troops mess up it will spell the end of their careers. They arent willing to take that risk, so in order to ensure they dont get screwed they try to keep themselves in the middle of everything.

Right! This is also a very difficult thing for many people to learn...that is to be able to trust someone else ,when it is your ass on the line. That is a different kind of stress than being under the stress of having to do the job...when I was a new SNCO, I struggled with that myself. If my name/shop was going to be on a job, I wanted to personally do it...or inspect it.

As you move up...that gets harder and more impossible to do. I do think being unable to let go of that control is something that holds some good people back...because you can only achieve so much scope of responsibility if you insist on personally supervising everything that you are responsible for.

[CrustySMSgt]

One thing i am a HUGE fan of and have said in other threads, Amn doing details! We dont have them doing details anymore we have cleaning crews. The guys on here like to say how they arent to proud to take out trash as an NCO, thats missing the whole point of details! Details are our Amn's chance to learn leadership and decision making. Appointing the HRMF as the head of the detail and then making him your focal point shows the lower ranking that this guy is the boss, that he is empowered! He handles the detail and is them responsible to figure out how to motivate his troops and make it work. You provide mentorship along the way but DO NOT chip in and help! If you help then the lower ranking Amn see you as the boss, they bypass the SrA and go to you for order instead of him. He learns nothing and they learn a SrA dont mean shit!

The other perk is, if the SrA screws up the detail noone is likely injured or killed. If he screws up in combat or the AOR people could die! Those SrA need to learn decision making and leadership and details are about the only place it can happen. NCO's need to learn to assign work instead of doing so much of it! The young SrA should be the focal point in your shop for daily work assignments. Let them work with you and help mentor them as they make decisions. Teach them why certain things need to be looked at certain ways. Barking orders and assignments teaches them nothing and erodes their credibility as SrA, it erodes the power of the rank structure.
Its not about me being too good to do details. its about me being an NCO and leading, mentoring, and molding those Amn to take my position in a few years. We need them qualified when they become SSgts not after! If they have credibility the SNCO tier will take them more seriously and so will the officers. Once they begin to see your folks in a more competant light they will loosen the riegns and ease up on the micro management. It may never go away completely, some SNCOs only know micro management, others are willing to let you try and fail even at their own expense.

The enlisted force structure isnt broke but the way in which its being mentored and led is faulty!

Hell ya! You said it perfectly... These are fantastic opportunities to practice leadership without failure resulting mission imparement. You give a SrA or SSgt 10 Airmen and a list of tasks... they organize the detail, prioritize work, assign tasks based on individual skills, supervise the work, follow-up to ensure the standard was met, and then praise or correct behavior as appropriate! When it is all done, the SSgt reports the task is complete. They all learned something from it, whether it was where their place in life is, how to lead of be led, how to follow directions, and adherance to standards!

Only problem is we had 200,000 more people 15-20 years ago, so it was much easier to cut them loose to do details... but as we've civilianized and contracted out a lot of the basics, we don't have Airmen sitting around with time to do a lot of details, because the manning programming for these tasks went away with the funding for the contracts.

I agree that E-4 should mirror the other services with NCO status... not sure we need to add the confusion of making 2 ranks for E-4 again... I'd lean towards doing away with SrA and just making it Sgt... set E-4s apart from the (rank) Airmen they've been running with, give them authority, and hold them accountable to use it. Reward those who do with promotion to SSgt and for those who can't separate themselves from the Airmen they once were, their EPRs reflect it and they hang out at Sgt for awhile longer.

[Gunner007]

Hell ya! You said it perfectly... These are fantastic opportunities to practice leadership without failure resulting mission imparement. You give a SrA or SSgt 10 Airmen and a list of tasks... they organize the detail, prioritize work, assign tasks based on individual skills, supervise the work, follow-up to ensure the standard was met, and then praise or correct behavior as appropriate! When it is all done, the SSgt reports the task is complete. They all learned something from it, whether it was where their place in life is, how to lead of be led, how to follow directions, and adherance to standards!

Only problem is we had 200,000 more people 15-20 years ago, so it was much easier to cut them loose to do details... but as we've civilianized and contracted out a lot of the basics, we don't have Airmen sitting around with time to do a lot of details, because the manning programming for these tasks went away with the funding for the contracts.

I agree that E-4 should mirror the other services with NCO status... not sure we need to add the confusion of making 2 ranks for E-4 again... I'd lean towards doing away with SrA and just making it Sgt... set E-4s apart from the (rank) Airmen they've been running with, give them authority, and hold them accountable to use it. Reward those who do with promotion to SSgt and for those who can't separate themselves from the Airmen they once were, their EPRs reflect it and they hang out at Sgt for awhile longer.

Sometimes it doesnt have to be details. I was talking with a junior Tech today who asked me for some advice and part of it had to do with how to be a better mentor and leader. He has a Staff working for him that the Amn dont respect the guy is clueless. I explained many things he could do to help mentor the staff. He said that possibly the great staff give away was the problem today i disagreed. The problem isnt people made staff, the problem is they werent mentored and ready to assume the responsibility.
He has a shop with several Amn and a few fresh staffs. I mentioned instead of him going out to do the work, make an issue of asking in front of everyone who is the ranking guy then pull him aside and give him the list of work and tasks and have him make a plan and explain it as he rough drafts it. Give him feedback, help him understand why certain things are done etc... In essence mentor him and help make him a replacement instead of a LIMFAC. Advise him that as a NCO his crediblity is his life blood and he now has to work hard(er) to be the consumate professional in these tasks. Once he empowers it will all begin to fall in line as we previously mentioned.
Dont get caught up in the fact i use tidy friday details as my preferred platform. The daily tasks in the shop or office can be handled the exact same way! Begin making those junior tier folks recognize rank, let them begin seeing it matter! Let those young pups get their hands on the daily schedule and prioritize tasks. You can help them along the way. This is a great alternative to details. Its mission impact if it fails so the learning curve is a bit steeper but you can, if you work hard on it, learn to give guidance while still keeping your hands off the reigns! The more proficient the guy gets the better he will become at it and when he gets promoted and your his boss, WOW... you know this guy knows his shit, you know you dont have to micro manage!! You know this because you mentored him and helped him evolve to be that guy you can depend on who is going to do the job right and save your ass!
When i was a very young SrA load toad, my expediters (typically an E-6 job) would let us rotate in on the slower days with them and we got to drive the truck and learn how to expedite. We definitely learned they did more than drive circles all day but we also came away with some seasoning. We learned how to assign work. When they made me a load crew chief and i had to stand in as the expediter i already had a really solid grasp of what to do. At one point i had 2 staffs who our SNCO's ordered to work under me as there expediter because they had screwed up so bad. Was it an ego blow for them, yeah it was and i had to learn to handle them with kid gloves because thats a very touchy situation but in the end they both talked to me and let me know they held no grudge and that they shouldnt have screwed up. Being a young load crew chief and then expediting in this situation, and then having two guys you thought as more experienced tell you they admired your ability and were proud of your work really is something you dont forget.

[johca]

I agree that E-4 should mirror the other services with NCO status... not sure we need to add the confusion of making 2 ranks for E-4 again..The SrA/Sgt split of the E-4 pay grade happened 30 December 1975. The termination of the AF E-4 NCO status was approved 19 March 1991 and became effective 2 May 1991.

The NCO authority and status exists with responsibilities directly contributing to the sustaining of an organized, trained, and disciplined armed forces. NCO status and authority includes line duties when connected to the combat chain-of-command. Pertinent to line duties, the NCO is the lowest level of the combat chain of command. There is a demarcation between duties of sustaining an organized, trained, and disciplined force within unit of assignment and duties of being the lowest level of the combat chain of command. The typical peace time duties pertinent to organizing, training, mentoring, caring for, and disciplining is being a supervisor, manager, or administrator. In this role the NCO assists the unit commander and commissioned officers of the unit in the discipline, instruction, administration, and the getting the daily work done. In performing duties NCO has authority not requiring supervisor-subordinate relationship, but it does require obedience that is backed up by UCMJ in the same way obedience to a commissioned officer’s lawful orders are backed up.

The military duties of being the lowest element of the combat chain of command is the performing military leader duties. This is specific to wartime or combat generated events and activities. The NCO still assists the unit commander and commissioned officers of the unit, but in the absence of commissioned officer has the authority of command. This command brings with it obligation not to surrender the team, squad, or patrol

The responsibility and authority of the Line NCO in the absence of a commissioned officer even if isolated, cut off, or surrounded extends to the surrender of command while the team, squad, patrol, unit has a reasonable power to resist, break out, or evade to rejoin friendly forces. Military means wartime purposes and the most effective NCO is the one able to lead a team, keep them under control, and direct their movements under fire until the objective is gained. Therefore the NCO is foremost a team leader who inspires and motivates the team to succeed. This NCO duty is foremost what distinguishes and defines NCO rank, duties, and authority from the Department of AF civilian manager or supervisor, SrA supervisor and other enlisted ranks and other civilian or contracted workers within the military unit.

Go to any 7-11, McDonalds Burger joint, or fortune 500 company and you will discover supervisors have responsibilities and authority to confront and address conduct and performance issues, motivate employees, evaluate employees, build team work, manage resources, develop people so they can move up into positions of more responsibility or positions of higher skills that are of more interest to the worker to do.


Only problem is we had 200,000 more people 15-20 years ago, so it was much easier to cut them loose to do details... but as we've civilianized and contracted out a lot of the basics, we don't have Airmen sitting around with time to do a lot of details, because the manning programming for these tasks went away with the funding for the contracts.I certainly agree it was easier in years past to stick a SrA in charge of a base detail to gain supervisory experience. However, there should be no difficulty in assigning the SrA or any other lower ranking enlisted Airman young troop in charge of something getting done in the work area. It’s called on-the-job training or mentoring. There shouldn’t be any difficulty in saying I retain accountability to insure this gets done right but I’m going to let you make the decisions on this job today. I do not buy into the E-4 SrA must have NCO status to learn how to supervise and to get experience to supervise.

The importance of NCO rank, status, and authority is not to supervise. Those duties exist both times of peace and times of armed conflict. The NCO rank, status, and authority exists to provide inspiring wartime leading that motivates other to face hardships and peril to succeed in achieving a military objective. NCO is a military status, NCO is military authority, NCO is being a military leader and not just a supervisor or manager.

[EJL72281]

In aircraft maintenance most of the NCO's I know and work with dont give a damn about much anymore. There are so many people jumping ship because of the 12 hour shift and steady deployments that there is no room for career progression. I have been in 10 years and im still doing the same job as an AMN or A1C. The only difference in my responsibility is that I have to write EPR's and basically lie about some crappy amn and how well he is doing. There are alot of MSgt still humping around tool boxes and such and to tell you the truth its just not right. Im a SSGT and when I first came in that was unheard of, now we dont have the people so nobody gives a sh&t about all these false ideas " Airman creed, ABU is actually a suitable uniform, PT scores arent fudged, fiscal year money is spent wisely" and the list can go on. I can only speak for what I have observed in the MXG's, but for the most part people just want to go and do there crappy 12 hour shift and go home... we dont want to listen to some big wig O tell us how everything should be when its a complete FUBR across the board. I mean really how can we be taken serious when we cant even decide how to wear our uniforms or for that matter release a piece of crap and not even consider that winter exist in some parts of the U.S. and then expect the SNCO, JNCO corps to be eager to led troops, when our top echelon doesnt even have a clue or doesnt care. Its all a nice dream that one day we will wake up and subordinates will listen and everyone will be squared away but sorry folks that aint going to happen, and I know I have bad attitude but the Air Force is just a job anymore.

[sigecaps]

Yeah you guys in MXG are getting screwed. :(

[BigBaze]

In aircraft maintenance most of the NCO's I know and work with dont give a damn about much anymore. There are so many people jumping ship because of the 12 hour shift and steady deployments that there is no room for career progression. I have been in 10 years and im still doing the same job as an AMN or A1C. The only difference in my responsibility is that I have to write EPR's and basically lie about some crappy amn and how well he is doing. There are alot of MSgt still humping around tool boxes and such and to tell you the truth its just not right. Im a SSGT and when I first came in that was unheard of, now we dont have the people so nobody gives a sh&t about all these false ideas " Airman creed, ABU is actually a suitable uniform, PT scores arent fudged, fiscal year money is spent wisely" and the list can go on. I can only speak for what I have observed in the MXG's, but for the most part people just want to go and do there crappy 12 hour shift and go home... we dont want to listen to some big wig O tell us how everything should be when its a complete FUBR across the board. I mean really how can we be taken serious when we cant even decide how to wear our uniforms or for that matter release a piece of crap and not even consider that winter exist in some parts of the U.S. and then expect the SNCO, JNCO corps to be eager to led troops, when our top echelon doesnt even have a clue or doesnt care. Its all a nice dream that one day we will wake up and subordinates will listen and everyone will be squared away but sorry folks that aint going to happen, and I know I have bad attitude but the Air Force is just a job anymore.


I know a lot of people will jump on you giving you the "then get the hell out of my Air Force" line, but what you say is true, I was in flightline maintenance an d they treat their people like shit. At least that is how it was where I worked, getting threatened with losing a stripe when I didn't fix the 35 year old jet on time, threatened with paperwork and weekend duty washing jet tires if I didn't buy a ticket to the Air Force Ball...fixing those jets with substandard equipment, and I can't get cold weather gear for my airmen but there is money to make pretty gardens all over base, and put plasma screens in offices. If you think this dog and pony show isn't going on on a daily basis you just plain have your head stuck up your ass. We asked for new tools and better equipment, and got Blues Mondays instead oh well, wish in one hand, shit in the other, see wish one fills up first I guess:) Happily I am in another career field and have gotten countless others to crosstrain out of that field as well.

[CrustySMSgt]

The SrA/Sgt split of the E-4 pay grade happened 30 December 1975. The termination of the AF E-4 NCO status was approved 19 March 1991 and became effective 2 May 1991.

The NCO authority and status exists with responsibilities directly contributing to the sustaining of an organized, trained, and disciplined armed forces. NCO status and authority includes line duties when connected to the combat chain-of-command. Pertinent to line duties, the NCO is the lowest level of the combat chain of command. There is a demarcation between duties of sustaining an organized, trained, and disciplined force within unit of assignment and duties of being the lowest level of the combat chain of command. The typical peace time duties pertinent to organizing, training, mentoring, caring for, and disciplining is being a supervisor, manager, or administrator. In this role the NCO assists the unit commander and commissioned officers of the unit in the discipline, instruction, administration, and the getting the daily work done. In performing duties NCO has authority not requiring supervisor-subordinate relationship, but it does require obedience that is backed up by UCMJ in the same way obedience to a commissioned officer’s lawful orders are backed up.

The military duties of being the lowest element of the combat chain of command is the performing military leader duties. This is specific to wartime or combat generated events and activities. The NCO still assists the unit commander and commissioned officers of the unit, but in the absence of commissioned officer has the authority of command. This command brings with it obligation not to surrender the team, squad, or patrol

Not sure what any of that had to do with the confusion of having 2 different statuses as E-4, but thanks for the history lesson...

I certainly agree it was easier in years past to stick a SrA in charge of a base detail to gain supervisory experience. However, there should be no difficulty in assigning the SrA or any other lower ranking enlisted Airman young troop in charge of something getting done in the work area. It’s called on-the-job training or mentoring. There shouldn’t be any difficulty in saying I retain accountability to insure this gets done right but I’m going to let you make the decisions on this job today. I do not buy into the E-4 SrA must have NCO status to learn how to supervise and to get experience to supervise.

The importance of NCO rank, status, and authority is not to supervise. Those duties exist both times of peace and times of armed conflict. The NCO rank, status, and authority exists to provide inspiring wartime leading that motivates other to face hardships and peril to succeed in achieving a military objective. NCO is a military status, NCO is military authority, NCO is being a military leader and not just a supervisor or manager.

Your time might be better spent educating the youngsters on the board... I think I've pretty much got roles, responsibility, management, supervision, and authority figured out by now... :rolleyes:

I agree the principles can be applied on the job as well as outside the work center doing details. But by doing details outside the work cetner, it removes everyone from their comfort zone and their daily routines and places them all on "neutral territory." Especially when you mix it up with Airmen from different sections. Great opportunity to do the rack & stack, figure out who's in charge, and execute.

[ramprat]

priority for senior nco
1 protect troops from the idiots.
2 dicipline within the section.
3 reward good performance.
4 delegate and train your potental replacement well.
5 keep the officers out of your business.
6 never,never tell a lie to anyone below or above you in rank.
7 dont play favorates .

[LogDog_guest]

priority for senior nco
1 protect troops from the idiots.
2 dicipline within the section.
3 reward good performance.
4 delegate and train your potental replacement well.
5 keep the officers out of your business.
6 never,never tell a lie to anyone below or above you in rank.
7 dont play favorates .
I'd add:
8. Don't create your own personal kingdom
9. Breakdown walls between sections within and outside your unit

[johca]

I'll add one too:

10. Correct and improve what is within your ability to do so, have the courage to communicate up the chain of command those problems, mission impairments you lack the authority or ability to correct and improve. (I agree with 5, but there are times and place to include chain of command in your bussiness).

I also would modify SNCO to NCO.

[SrA West]

I just want to thank you all for posting your replies....I have just recently came into the rank of SrA and I am now starting to understand what is going on. I used to be one of those POS A1C's who didnt give a darn about the rank of SrA till i got it. After reading the force structurei didnt understand the full duties that i now carry. had i known some of that information i think that my attitude and my demeanor would have been completely different. I wonder if that might be a possibility to regain what has been lost. Give all Airman an enlisted force structure book so that they understand their own duties and responsibilities as well as the other ranks. It is just an idea some may think its not enough but it might be a start.

[BRUWIN]

Give all Airman an enlisted force structure book so that they understand their own duties and responsibilities as well as the other ranks. It is just an idea some may think its not enough but it might be a start.

Pretty much every Airman should get one from their Shirt or the Supt...if not they need to knock down thier door to get one.

[BTDTNM]

Something else that is missing now days is Senior NCO's that quash idiotic things that come down from idiotic officers. I agree, if it is the way it's supposed to be then do it. There are a lot of things that are supposed to be right now that never should have gotten that way in the first place. Reflective belts where they are not needed for example. A dysfunctional PT uniform. The whole PT thing in itself for that matter. The list is long and need not be repeated here.

Sr NCO's have become politicians so they can get promoted. They have in a way become yes-men like the officers. I nominate this as one reason why we have so many idiot senior officers running around right now. If the senior NCO's along the way had taken care of business these ass-hats would never have made it that far.

[Combat correspondent]

I just wrote a new OI for my section today and our Chief signed off on it making it official - yipee!!!!

Starting immediately, here is our duty day:

0650 Morning formation, roll call, open ranks
0700 get your ass to work
1100 mandatory PT (M-F)
1230 Lunch
1300 get your ass back to work
1700 duty day ends, clean up area
1730 evening formation, cross flow info and go home!

Awesome!

I've been pushing for a real work day for about a month and finally got it. Now, I can also whip my fat asses into shape. These killers go to fat camp from 0530-0630 so they'll get 2.5 hours of PT each day!

[Smeghead]

Remind me what base you're at again so I can edit my dream sheet :)

[1TiredNCO]

Forgive me for being a new guy here

I have been reading this and I see lot of things from both sides. Some guys are complaining that no one enforces the standards and it just continues to get worse, and other say the standards are enforced but people blow them off after being corrected. And they say it's a lack of respect for authority, well I can agree on that myself.

First off, I don't blame the SNCO's myself, and this is because I have probably worked for some of the best in the Air Force. I am only a lowly SSGT, but since being promoted in '04, I have had Senior's and Chiefs give me a lot of advice on leadership, and followership and I have taken some while ignoring others. Most people disagree with my method of leading from the front and I am told this is not what I should do, I am told by TSgt's and MSgt's that I am supposed to give and order and send them on their way. I have been hearing that since I became an NCO, and will continue to fight it because that is who I am.

I am constantly correcting Airmen and NCO's on mistakes and violations. Most of the time, the E-2's and E-3's will be like "Oh! Crap! Sorry, let me fix that" and they go on their merry way. Now E-4's and up look at me like I am some alien from Mars and walk away. I have issued paperwork before and assigned details to the guys under me, and usually I get a lot of flak from those above me for being too hard. This problem is across the whole spectrum. I just don't understand why people disrespect those they work with and for.

When I enlisted in '99 and came into BMT, both my MTI's were SrA and I was pretty convinced that SrA and above were supreme in authority. That mentality stuck with me through Tech School and still to this day, but I watched that break down some over my time in, when I made Staff, it's like there was no change and I was still treated like an airmen by those above me, and those under me looked at me like I was another member of The Great Staff Giveaway (I tested 3 times).

OK, enough ranting and preaching, just been wanting to get that out, and see if anyone has an opinion

[MACHINE666]

I just wrote a new OI for my section today and our Chief signed off on it making it official - yipee!!!!

Starting immediately, here is our duty day:

0650 Morning formation, roll call, open ranks
0700 get your ass to work
1100 mandatory PT (M-F)
1230 Lunch
1300 get your ass back to work
1700 duty day ends, clean up area
1730 evening formation, cross flow info and go home!

Awesome!

I've been pushing for a real work day for about a month and finally got it. Now, I can also whip my fat asses into shape. These killers go to fat camp from 0530-0630 so they'll get 2.5 hours of PT each day!

And I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that the amount of DLC profiles you guys get will double, if not triple. Combat, as much of an ass I think you are at times, you're really proving it difficult for me to think differently of you. You're going to burn your people out and they're going to develop overuse injuries - permanent injuries that won't go away simply by 'running it off' or slapping an ice pack on it. You're going to lower their motivation and even if they don't publicly say it, they're going to be throwing daggers at you behind your back. I've seen this scenario too many times in my career and I am saying this so you will avoid possibly embarassing yourself and creating resentment within your flight.

I used to run 3 miles every other day - now I'm lucky if I can walk it, for the very same reasons you're so proud of. How are you going to explain it to their families when they get medically boarded out of the miltiary, all because you wanted to live your former glory days in the Marines? Think about it man. Just think.

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[USMC_8156]

And I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that the amount of DLC profiles you guys get will double, if not triple. Combat, as much of an ass I think you are at times, you're really proving it difficult for me to think differently of you. You're going to burn your people out and they're going to develop overuse injuries - permanent injuries that won't go away simply by 'running it off' or slapping an ice pack on it.


I'm in no way commenting on the main theme of this thread, I realize that I have nothing to say that any of you will care about, and I couldn't care less myself.

BUUUUUT...do you really think exercising for a hour a day five days a week is going to cause the kinds of injuries you are describing? I agree CC should have stayed in the Corps, but I don't think he's going to really injure people by making them exercise an hour a day.

[Combat correspondent]

I'm in no way commenting on the main theme of this thread, I realize that I have nothing to say that any of you will care about, and I couldn't care less myself.

BUUUUUT...do you really think exercising for a hour a day five days a week is going to cause the kinds of injuries you are describing? I agree CC should have stayed in the Corps, but I don't think he's going to really injure people by making them exercise an hour a day.

Right? That notion is ludicrous! Holy crap, my 12 year old daughter plays on her middle school's soccer team and girl's basketball team, cheerleads for football, and trains in Ryushin (Okinawan karate) at the local dojo. She is in school (what????) 7 hours a day, then in sports (lets call that PT????) for another hour or two and then does homework and she is 12 - what is your problem?

A bunch of whiny a$$es. You owe the taxpayers who pay you a full-days work and I seriously doubt a 10-hour workday is over doing it. Especially when only 7.5 hours are dedicated to actual "work." The rest is a formation, PT and chow --- sometimes I get so frustrated with people...experience has proven those people to be mainly Airmen and Soldiers.

And, lets look at this from another point of view - our OIC (shop chief) signed off on it! Our Command Chief Master Sergeant has been talking this talk, the Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force talks this talk - but you all think it some CC rant! Wow, what world are you living in....don't look now but the freakin' train is down there - run and catch up!

[MACHINE666]

I'm in no way commenting on the main theme of this thread, I realize that I have nothing to say that any of you will care about, and I couldn't care less myself.

BUUUUUT...do you really think exercising for a hour a day five days a week is going to cause the kinds of injuries you are describing? I agree CC should have stayed in the Corps, but I don't think he's going to really injure people by making them exercise an hour a day.

Okay. Dude you're about to get the Dee Dee Dee Award here. Track with me on this one:

These killers go to fat camp from 0530-0630 so they'll get 2.5 hours of PT each day! as quoted by Combat - 2.5 hours times 5 is 12.5 hours a week, and multiply that by 4 weeks, that's 50 hours of exerting yourself. Now, PT as I know it, involves strength training with weights and running, and if you're going to over extend yourself as opposed to 30 hours out of the month, do you see how the percentage for over-use injuries can increase dramatically?

And Combat - your daughter is 12 years old, like you said. She's young and is going to be naturally in better shape than some dude who's just a few years shy of 40 like myself. When I was 18 I had a 31 inch waist and could run cross-country without breaking a sweat. You do realize that as we get older, our bodies deteriorate especially with the more wear and tear you subject them to, or do they brainwash you in the Marines to think that pain is only weakness leaving the body?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[USMC_8156]

Done correctly, combined with a change in diet, the fatties will end up in shape. If you were only talking about the ones assigned to fat kid PT, then there's an argument to make. He said PT, not "run you into the ground," which isn't even something we do to people assigned to BCP (what we call it) because like you said, you would cause massive overtraining injuries.

The idea behind the extra hour in the morning is to boost the metabolism in a lagging body. Maybe it's basketball, maybe it's soccer, maybe it's a run, but it is in addition to whatever unit PT is conducted. Unit PT, specifically, is designed to maintain fitness, not improve it. So the extra hour is to do just that. Hell, the extra hour could sometimes be devoted to PME on proper diet and nutrition.

I think more of an argument that could be made, Machine666, is "Does it really matter that much in the Air Force that our Airmen be under their weight standards?" After all, you guys aren't humping packs or doing anything like we are which demands you be in peak condition or else.

[MACHINE666]

USMC I'll use the same argument here that I've used elsewhere - joining the Air Force is like joining Lambda Lambda Lambda from Revenge of the Nerds - we're not jocks so we don't join the Marines or the Army for that very reason. Take someone like Booger, Lamarr or their leader Skulnick and that is your stereotypical Air Force weenie. Put us in PT gear and dumb us down by doing all sorts of physical activity, and it's no wonder we injure quicker than most other people do. Your typical Army or Marine is like Ogre - anything that moves, destroy it, and in Combat's case, he crossed over to the Nerd Side the same way Ogre did in Revenge of the Nerds part II, only he thinks he can turn us all into one of you guys.

Wrong approach dude (imitation Jack Black voice). We don't function that way!

So remember - us nerds - you jocks.

[USMC_8156]

USMC I'll use the same argument here that I've used elsewhere - joining the Air Force is like joining Lambda Lambda Lambda from Revenge of the Nerds - we're not jocks so we don't join the Marines or the Army for that very reason. Take someone like Booger, Lamarr or their leader Skulnick and that is your stereotypical Air Force weenie. Put us in PT gear and dumb us down by doing all sorts of physical activity, and it's no wonder we injure quicker than most other people do. Your typical Army or Marine is like Ogre - anything that moves, destroy it, and in Combat's case, he crossed over to the Nerd Side the same way Ogre did in Revenge of the Nerds part II, only he thinks he can turn us all into one of you guys.

Wrong approach dude (imitation Jack Black voice). We don't function that way!

So remember - us nerds - you jocks.

Lol...what do you say to that. Well in that case I hope that CC doesn't break the brittle bones of the members of his squadron. I now have a mental image of R. Lee Ermey hazing the life out of a bunch of drenched in the rain chess club members.

[ImSW1]

I just wrote a new OI for my section today and our Chief signed off on it making it official - yipee!!!!

Starting immediately, here is our duty day:

0650 Morning formation, roll call, open ranks
0700 get your ass to work
1100 mandatory PT (M-F)
1230 Lunch
1300 get your ass back to work
1700 duty day ends, clean up area
1730 evening formation, cross flow info and go home!

Awesome!

I've been pushing for a real work day for about a month and finally got it. Now, I can also whip my fat asses into shape. These killers go to fat camp from 0530-0630 so they'll get 2.5 hours of PT each day!

It blows my mind that you needed an OI to establish a duty day schedule. When I supervised, been a few years now, I told my people what they needed to do. I didn't need an OI to back me up...and you're suggesting solutions to the supposed problems with the AF? The solution you chose was more bureaucracy.

Will you adhere to this every day no matter what? By the letter of the policy you must. Can't wait until an inspector turns up and reads that OI, should be good for a laugh before they bend you over. You've created an ironclad, unsustainable long term policy. Good luck.

Sean

[MACHINE666]

Lol...what do you say to that. Well in that case I hope that CC doesn't break the brittle bones of the members of his squadron. I now have a mental image of R. Lee Ermey hazing the life out of a bunch of drenched in the rain chess club members.

Dude I'm proud to be part of the Nerd Herd - I'm definitely the Booger of group too, make no mistake about it.

Heh. Combat, I challenge you to a belching contest, just like they did in the movie, and I'll win too.

[CMSBROWN]

I just wrote a new OI for my section today and our Chief signed off on it making it official - yipee!!!!

Starting immediately, here is our duty day:

0650 Morning formation, roll call, open ranks
0700 get your ass to work
1100 mandatory PT (M-F)
1230 Lunch
1300 get your ass back to work
1700 duty day ends, clean up area
1730 evening formation, cross flow info and go home!

Awesome!

I've been pushing for a real work day for about a month and finally got it. Now, I can also whip my fat asses into shape. These killers go to fat camp from 0530-0630 so they'll get 2.5 hours of PT each day!

Nice! :cheers:

[SrA West]

Well first i want to comment on the fact that fat boys do need extra PT. with that being said the sessions obviously need to be monitored so that they dont break a nail...i have been in for only a little while and (with the exception of the job opportunities that have opened up in the AF) i regret it. i should have joined a branch that actually has pride in what it stands for and they not only meet the standards but excede all of them. in my mind most of the AF is a bunch of b**ches who dont care about what they do or what they are here to do. GET A DAMN BACK BONE PEOPLE...YOU KNOW WE ARE IN THE MILITARY START ACTING LIKE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

P.S. oh and if you think im wrong then explain that to my flight cause we actually act like that and we are recognized for it daily. BTW we work for the CC of USAFE

[Max Power]

Well first i want to comment on the fact that fat boys do need extra PT. with that being said the sessions obviously need to be monitored so that they dont break a nail...i have been in for only a little while and (with the exception of the job opportunities that have opened up in the AF) i regret it. i should have joined a branch that actually has pride in what it stands for and they not only meet the standards but excede all of them. in my mind most of the AF is a bunch of b**ches who dont care about what they do or what they are here to do. GET A DAMN BACK BONE PEOPLE...YOU KNOW WE ARE IN THE MILITARY START ACTING LIKE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

P.S. oh and if you think im wrong then explain that to my flight cause we actually act like that and we are recognized for it daily. BTW we work for the CC of USAFE

You're special.

[Combat correspondent]

It blows my mind that you needed an OI to establish a duty day schedule. When I supervised, been a few years now, I told my people what they needed to do. I didn't need an OI to back me up...and you're suggesting solutions to the supposed problems with the AF? The solution you chose was more bureaucracy.

Will you adhere to this every day no matter what? By the letter of the policy you must. Can't wait until an inspector turns up and reads that OI, should be good for a laugh before they bend you over. You've created an ironclad, unsustainable long term policy. Good luck.

Sean

You've got to understand something --- yes, this has been my policy for quite some time. Still, we have one of our own in "Fat Camp" I mean, fit camp. Now, we have outside eyes looking in and need to tread carefully. Personally, I'd like to PT the fat piece of $h!t starting at 0530 every morning for hours and hours. I am 34 and max out my PT - 100% every time. This l@rd piece of human filth is only 22 and claims he can't get his waste under 40" - though he is only 3" taller than me! Also, he can only do 16 push ups in a minute and busts a 13 minute mile and a half! What in God's good name is this troll? I'm 34 and run my 1.5 in the upper 8 and lower 9 on a hung over day. I don't get it.

Anyways, to keep legit - we've got to do this officially!

[DAG48]

I feel like all this is my fault. You see, if I had not helped the Wright Brothers with their Airplane design, I might have been able to fix the flaw in my catapult test off an ocean pier for the U.S. Navy. My Airplane crashed due to the catapult problem the day before the Wright Brothers first flight and the Navy lost interest. If the Navy would have been the first to fly, then the USAF would probably not exist as the Marines and Navy would be our Air Force, and would be fit, wear the uniform properly, and yes be a bunch of nerdy jocks.

Care to guess who I was and where I worked during this time?

[Combat correspondent]

I feel like all this is my fault. You see, if I had not helped the Wright Brothers with their Airplane design, I might have been able to fix the flaw in my catapult test off an ocean pier for the U.S. Navy. My Airplane crashed due to the catapult problem the day before the Wright Brothers first flight and the Navy lost interest. If the Navy would have been the first to fly, then the USAF would probably not exist as the Marines and Navy would be our Air Force, and would be fit, wear the uniform properly, and yes be a bunch of nerdy jocks.

Care to guess who I was and where I worked during this time?

No - but thanks for asking :)

OK, OK, where???

I've always figured a huge Navy could muster it all. A huge Navy could take care of sea, air, space and land.

Oops, that'll piss some people off :)

[CMSBROWN]

Well first i want to comment on the fact that fat boys do need extra PT. with that being said the sessions obviously need to be monitored so that they dont break a nail...i have been in for only a little while and (with the exception of the job opportunities that have opened up in the AF) i regret it. i should have joined a branch that actually has pride in what it stands for and they not only meet the standards but excede all of them. in my mind most of the AF is a bunch of b**ches who dont care about what they do or what they are here to do. GET A DAMN BACK BONE PEOPLE...YOU KNOW WE ARE IN THE MILITARY START ACTING LIKE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

P.S. oh and if you think im wrong then explain that to my flight cause we actually act like that and we are recognized for it daily. BTW we work for the CC of USAFE

SrA West! Keep up the great attitude. You are what the Air Force needs more of to help turn it around.

Keep your drive alive, study hard, get all the schools under your belt you can, volunteer for deployments and you will go far in this man's Air Force...hopefully your demeanor will spread like cancer one day and infect the rest of the Air Force turning it into a better Air Force.

Thank you for your service!

[Fearsome]

An OI? The problem with operating instructions detailing basic stuff like that is: The people that take the time to read and follow directions probably DONT need to be told in the first place...and the people that really need the direction are well past the point of "Oh, I didn't know it was WRITTEN down some where."

Lead by example, that's the only way it works. That way your people understand that you're willing and able to do the duties you assign to them. When's the last time you worked with someone you wanted to be like? When's the last time someone wanted to be like you?

[Combat correspondent]

An OI? The problem with operating instructions detailing basic stuff like that is: The people that take the time to read and follow directions probably DONT need to be told in the first place...and the people that really need the direction are well past the point of "Oh, I didn't know it was WRITTEN down some where."

Lead by example, that's the only way it works. That way your people understand that you're willing and able to do the duties you assign to them. When's the last time you worked with someone you wanted to be like? When's the last time someone wanted to be like you?

I'll tell you what killer, I was told something as a boot-a$$ troop that stuck with me until now. An NCO I admire once took me aside and said, "Devil, you look all kinds of confused. You needs to find the proper mentor and rule out all these other jokers."

OK, this NCO pretty much spoke in Ebonics but his point was tried and true. I was a newbie and surrounded by many troops - all whom outranked me. Who was I to emulate?

I tell my Airmen the same things today.

Find the NCOs who personify the unwavering commitment to their force and to the enlisted corps. Try to build yourself up to be this NCO. Surely other NCOs will come along and some may be douche bags. Follow their orders and respect their stripes but keep your eye on that golden NCO listed above. You don't have to add every tool an NCO gives you to your toolbag. Only add that golden NCO's tools and, with time, hard-a$$ work, discipline and dedication, you'll become him/her!

Believe it FEARSOME! Mock me if you will for writing an OI but you don't know what pressure we've been under all due to some fat, bag of wasted space - an oxygen thief in uniform. And, to make it all worse, this lard-a$$ piece of cr@p is an NCO. We have Airmen who see him skate the system. We have the 1st Sgt, CC and everyone else on God's green earth looking in (or so it seems). So, yeah, I wrote a freakin' OI....so what? These bastards now have an OI telling them their 10 hour duty day, spelling out our morning formation, open ranks and PT. And, thank you for not noticing, but lard-a$$-McSloppy now gets to PT 2.5 hours a day (12.5 hours each week). That'll get this fatbody into shape!

[Fearsome]

Mock you? Nah, I just doubt the fact that all avenues were exhausted and writing it down was the fix.

BUT, I've been wrong before...and it probably wasn't the last time.

...and to the people that look at said dirtbag and think they can skate out of PT, I have one response: "I can't make you do anything. But I can make you wish you had." THAT was something I learned from a supervisor I wanted to be like.

[TRDL]

I just wrote a new OI for my section today and our Chief signed off on it making it official - yipee!!!!

Starting immediately, here is our duty day:

0650 Morning formation, roll call, open ranks
0700 get your ass to work
1100 mandatory PT (M-F)
1230 Lunch
1300 get your ass back to work
1700 duty day ends, clean up area
1730 evening formation, cross flow info and go home!

Awesome!

I've been pushing for a real work day for about a month and finally got it. Now, I can also whip my fat asses into shape. These killers go to fat camp from 0530-0630 so they'll get 2.5 hours of PT each day!

How many people are there in your office? Why do you feel open ranks are necessary, do the majority look like dirtbags?

[SrA West]

Honestly, it doesnt matter if they look like dirtbags or not. All it does is enforce standards outlined in AFI 36-2903.

[Combat correspondent]

Honestly, it doesnt matter if they look like dirtbags or not. All it does is enforce standards outlined in AFI 36-2903.

Yup! That and building a 'team.' The more you do as a team (PT, open ranks, formations, lunches, dinners, mandatory fun....whatever), the more the team builds as a team. Too often people look at their unit as a day-time job and their family is at home. May be true, but your unit is also your family. Whether or not dirtbags are in the unit, open ranks helps keep all on check and builds camaraderie..

[chief0299]

I just wrote a new OI for my section today and our Chief signed off on it making it official - yipee!!!!

Starting immediately, here is our duty day:

0650 Morning formation, roll call, open ranks
0700 get your ass to work
1100 mandatory PT (M-F)
1230 Lunch
1300 get your ass back to work
1700 duty day ends, clean up area
1730 evening formation, cross flow info and go home!

Awesome!

I've been pushing for a real work day for about a month and finally got it. Now, I can also whip my fat asses into shape. These killers go to fat camp from 0530-0630 so they'll get 2.5 hours of PT each day!

CC, I applaud your desire to fix things. However, I wish you all the luck garnering the respect of those around you. Enjoy the Commendation medal you will recieve along with the "5" you;ll get on your EPR... I imagine it will be along the lines of "Star performer; created and enforced new policies to affect the morale of the unit... single handedly allocated time for the entire squadron to increase their duty day just for PT... re-instilled the military mindframe that has long since been forgotten by holding open ranks and TWO (2) formations per day... Saved the Air Force 32 Million by utilizing the word "Crossflow" in an OI.

I'm jealous.

No, there's no reason to believe the enlisted force broke the Air Force!

[VFFSSGT]

break out the bullets...lol

[Combat correspondent]

Errrrr. Try to do good and make things better - what a harsh crowd. Come on Brier Rabbit, hang me, shoot me, boil me in water, just don't throw me in that Brier Patch! My point? Many here are much better at me than talking about what is right or what is good for our force....still, other than talking and criticizing, most don't seem to be doing much of anything. Your Brier Fast Tongue is what broke the Air Force, many young NCOs, staff NCOs and senior NCOs aim to change that :)

[chief0299]

CC, I don't mean to be condescending or dis-respectful, but bear with me. When the Air Force as a whole has evolved into a culture of using powerpoint, creating policy letters, oi's, supplements to oi's, having a meeting for everything... thanks to the introduction of corporate values and policies by officers, I fail to see how falling in line with these types of "management" techniques will fix the problem. During my tenure with the Army, we had S.O.P.'s that supplemented AR's, FM's and the such. There was never a time when the supplementing S.O.P. split the hairs of the reg. Nor did they have to spell out to soldiers in a language that was likend to that of a kindergarten bulltetin board, how we should operate. We all knew our job. If it was my job to carry the mortar stand, I carried it. I did what I was told by my chain of command.

Granted, I will agree that there are parts of the Air Force enlisted force that need to be put back into their place and have a face to face explanation that they need to quit being whiney ass b*tches, but they are only mimicking the example their commissioned officer leaders set forth for them.

When I came into the Air Force, SAC had just been disbanded. Many of my trainers and supervisors were old SAC "Warriors." They were all a no B.S. kind of bunch who didn't split hairs. A bird was a bird, a duck was a duck and if something was broke, you fixed it. There was NEVER any splitting hairs and treating people like they were children. It wasn't until most of these "Old guys" retired that things started changing. That, and the Air Force world evolved due to the fighter pilot mentality.

Either way, we shouldn't need to be treated like children and told what to do. We know our jobs, we all need to suck it up and do it. Bitch and whine when you get home, get drunk and beat your kids or something.

Ha ha, just kidding on that last part.

[VFFSSGT]

Chief, you are condemning whining here but in the other thread you are encouraging and antagonizing the whining by telling a MSgt to go to his Chief, etc and defy lawful orders instead of telling him to suck it up, do his job, and counsel his people for not maintaining proper uniform items IAW AF regs over the years... :rolleyes: :confused:

That shortage of uniform items is not AAFES fault; it was caused by a mad rush when the order of blues Monday came down because people failed to do their job...it happened at every base - we had an AAFES HQ message come down talking about it.

[chief0299]

Chief, you are condemning whining here but in the other thread you are encouraging and antagonizing the whining by telling a MSgt to go to his Chief, etc and defy lawful orders instead of telling him to suck it up, do his job, and counsel his people for not maintaining proper uniform items IAW AF regs over the years... :rolleyes: :confused:

That shortage of uniform items is not AAFES fault; it was caused by a mad rush when the order of blues Monday came down because people failed to do their job...it happened at every base - we had an AAFES HQ message come down talking about it.

I apologize if it comes across that way, but it isn't. If a commander orders his people to be outside in sub-freezing temps and they do not have proper cold weather gear which could result in bodily harm, then it is an unlawful order. Even though the circumstances are different, this is akin to going outside the wire with no flak jacket on.

I am a reservist and I do not get a clothing allowance. This does not mean that it is up to me to purchase my own cold weather gear, it is my units' responsibility to provide me with adequate cold weather gear. When they don't and my airmen come to me asking what they should do, I give them everything I have. I, in turn, have nothing. I then go to my chain of command and press to test in order for my troops and I to recieve what is adequate. It isn't a matter of advocating whining, it's a matter of doing what's right for your troops.

As far as th MSgt. and my advice for him goes, he asked for opinions and I gave mine.

I agree that we all are responsible for maintaining our uniforms. The individuals who do not have the proper parts for their uniforms should be punished for failure to maintain them. In the meantime, what good is an airman sitting at the base hospital being treated for hypothermia or frostbite when they could be doing their job?

[TRDL]

Yup! That and building a 'team.' The more you do as a team (PT, open ranks, formations, lunches, dinners, mandatory fun....whatever), the more the team builds as a team. Too often people look at their unit as a day-time job and their family is at home. May be true, but your unit is also your family. Whether or not dirtbags are in the unit, open ranks helps keep all on check and builds camaraderie..

Could you explain to me how open ranks, formations and such are team building? I honestly have never understood that point of veiw. For example, my wifes squadron got called out to a 0630 Sat. open ranks because someone got busted for DUI. That seems like a punishment to me, not something that is made to bring people together. I don't understand how taking something like that, and enforcing it every day is supposed to make everyone work together better.

I do understand it as enforcing the AFI as pointed out by SrAmn West, but my point about the dirtbags, if everyone in your office is shit hot on the regs. do you still find it necessary?

I have also yet to see a formation of more than 30 people fall in, call roll, do open ranks, and get to work in 10 minutes.

[Combat correspondent]

Reflect on your experience in BMT. As strange as it may sound to you, mandatory military activities actually do build commeraderie and team work. This fact has been proven over 2 1/2 centuries of American military history and I don't know how many years of military history in general.

[Smeghead]

Reflect on your experience in BMT. As strange as it may sound to you, mandatory military activities actually do build commeraderie and team work. This fact has been proven over 2 1/2 centuries of American military history and I don't know how many years of military history in general.

How has it been proven? What makes it a fact?

[chief0299]

Reflect on your experience in BMT. As strange as it may sound to you, mandatory military activities actually do build commeraderie and team work. This fact has been proven over 2 1/2 centuries of American military history and I don't know how many years of military history in general.

I keep seeing all these military type words being used. I know what we should do... take a lesson from the Japanese and corporate America. Let's perform team building exercises including the annual re-treat to the forrest for building bonds, networking and learning to tie knots properly before going sailing on our dinghys.

Kidding, kidding.

[CrustySMSgt]

USMC I'll use the same argument here that I've used elsewhere - joining the Air Force is like joining Lambda Lambda Lambda from Revenge of the Nerds - we're not jocks so we don't join the Marines or the Army for that very reason. Take someone like Booger, Lamarr or their leader Skulnick and that is your stereotypical Air Force weenie. Put us in PT gear and dumb us down by doing all sorts of physical activity, and it's no wonder we injure quicker than most other people do. Your typical Army or Marine is like Ogre - anything that moves, destroy it, and in Combat's case, he crossed over to the Nerd Side the same way Ogre did in Revenge of the Nerds part II, only he thinks he can turn us all into one of you guys.

Wrong approach dude (imitation Jack Black voice). We don't function that way!

So remember - us nerds - you jocks.


Most unit PT is a joke... bare minimum... 3-5 times a week of 30 minutes of cardio, with some stretching and a little strength training shouldn't be too much for anyone... We are 5 years into our attempt to get this program running and there are still people who can't complete 1.5 miles without walking... and that is pitiful!

Everyone below SSgt (that is ~115K Airmen; 1/3 of the entire force) came into the AF AFTER we had a PT program... yet there are "per capita" nearly as many in this demographic who have problems with PT as the old guys.

PT in the Air Force is here to stay... and it will continue to get tougher (relatively speaking). Unfortunately it will take another 10 years or more to get us past attitudes like yours, who can't stop living in the past... :rolleyes:

[Combat correspondent]

PT in the Air Force is here to stay... and it will continue to get tougher (relatively speaking). Unfortunately it will take another 10 years or more to get us past attitudes like yours, who can't stop living in the past.:

Indeed Senior. And, what does the good 'ol PDG say about dealing with change? Ah, yes.... tough minded optimism. We've got to deal with change by embracing, perpetuating and enforcing it....maintaining a tough mind and being optimistic the whole time :)

[TRDL]

So how goes the new daily routine Correspondant? Has everthing worked the way you'd expected it to?

[CMSBROWN]

Most unit PT is a joke... bare minimum... 3-5 times a week of 30 minutes of cardio, with some stretching and a little strength training shouldn't be too much for anyone... We are 5 years into our attempt to get this program running and there are still people who can't complete 1.5 miles without walking... and that is pitiful!

Everyone below SSgt (that is ~115K Airmen; 1/3 of the entire force) came into the AF AFTER we had a PT program... yet there are "per capita" nearly as many in this demographic who have problems with PT as the old guys.

PT in the Air Force is here to stay... and it will continue to get tougher (relatively speaking). Unfortunately it will take another 10 years or more to get us past attitudes like yours, who can't stop living in the past... :rolleyes:


And that is why I am proud to call you Chief! HOOAH!

[Combat correspondent]

So how goes the new daily routine Correspondant? Has everthing worked the way you'd expected it to?

Going good and the motivation is spreading. Without even being prompted an A1C set up a 0900, 1100 and 1400 outlook reminder telling her to do push ups. At those times, she shouts out push ups and everyone from our Airmen to Captain - even our 1 fat body SSgt, all get down and push. At random, as we call out numbers, someone will shout out "hold" and we'll all hold until that person tells us to continue the push. Sometimes people will be on the phone or otherwise engaged and not participate - but you'll see them making it up moments later. Just as I tried to say, with motivation and discipline at all levels, it spreads like a virus and all get involved. Give us a month and our camaraderie will peak. This is what you all should do too.

[CMSBROWN]

Going good and the motivation is spreading. Without even being prompted an A1C set up a 0900, 1100 and 1400 outlook reminder telling her to do push ups. At those times, she shouts out push ups and everyone from our Airmen to Captain - even our 1 fat body SSgt, all get down and push. At random, as we call out numbers, someone will shout out "hold" and we'll all hold until that person tells us to continue the push. Sometimes people will be on the phone or otherwise engaged and not participate - but you'll see them making it up moments later. Just as I tried to say, with motivation and discipline at all levels, it spreads like a virus and all get involved. Give us a month and our camaraderie will peak. This is what you all should do too.

Anyone game for a game of tackle football in MOPP4?

[Combat correspondent]

Anyone game for a game of tackle football in MOPP4?

He!! yeah! That sounds fun as sh!t! Or, when it gets snowy and cruddy, we could put on our Flaks and Kevlar an play tackle football. That would help the "safety" aspect too and we could still run our asses off and beat the crap out of each other! All around fun :)

[oldschoolnco]

I didn't read the entire thread, regret dupes.

Word on the street is that there is a NEW 'little brown book' coming out. For all you SNCO's out there, (myself included), pay particular attention to your chapter. My Command Chief said it contains very strong verbiage. Such things as 'inspire or retire'.

[CMSBROWN]

I didn't read the entire thread, regret dupes.

Word on the street is that there is a NEW 'little brown book' coming out. For all you SNCO's out there, (myself included), pay particular attention to your chapter. My Command Chief said it contains very strong verbiage. Such things as 'inspire or retire'.

Can't wait to see it! :)

[TRDL]

Going good and the motivation is spreading. Without even being prompted an A1C set up a 0900, 1100 and 1400 outlook reminder telling her to do push ups. At those times, she shouts out push ups and everyone from our Airmen to Captain - even our 1 fat body SSgt, all get down and push. At random, as we call out numbers, someone will shout out "hold" and we'll all hold until that person tells us to continue the push. Sometimes people will be on the phone or otherwise engaged and not participate - but you'll see them making it up moments later. Just as I tried to say, with motivation and discipline at all levels, it spreads like a virus and all get involved. Give us a month and our camaraderie will peak. This is what you all should do too.

Now see,unless my job was mindblowingly boring, or there was little to do, I can't see myself enjoying that. I tend to get tunnel visionabout my work and anything that breaks me out of that tends to annoy me.

Have you tried a progressive workout approach for the fatbody? I know that sometimes it's easy for people like you, who've been in great shape forever, to forget to slowly ramp up change in a program for those who aren't up to par.

[Combat correspondent]

Now see,unless my job was mindblowingly boring, or there was little to do, I can't see myself enjoying that. I tend to get tunnel visionabout my work and anything that breaks me out of that tends to annoy me.

Have you tried a progressive workout approach for the fatbody? I know that sometimes it's easy for people like you, who've been in great shape forever, to forget to slowly ramp up change in a program for those who aren't up to par.

No, but I am very interested in what you are talking about.

This guy has to do Fit Camp every morning but doesn't seem to be getting any better. I offered to run with him in the evenings but he has 4 kids at home and 1 is handicap, he needs to get home.

So, I've been trying to keep his metabolism up all day long.

I need to do something because if this guy doesn't shape up, they're gonna take rank or boot him to the curb. I don't really think he believes that will happen.

[TRDL]

Do you know what the structure for your local Fat camp is? Most of the time, and often due to manpower problems, it's the same maintainence workout that everybody else does for PT anyway. It will help burn calories, but it's difficult to make progress as far as fitness.

Speaking as someone who has to work at not being a fatbody, the best way for me to get back into, and keep in shape, I have to have small but constantly increasing goals. For example, I think I recall you saying he has a problem with running the distance. The way I am currently getting back into shape, after complete profile. Set him a 20 minute jog, no set speed, but monitor how long he takes to finish a lap. If he's got a terrible score it's probably around a 3minute lap. Run that on mondays and thursdays. On Tuesdays and Fridays, have him run 1/4 mile with the goal of a 2 minute lap, he should be able to do the first one fine, but have him do 8 of them. Walk one lap, time one 2 minute lap. As he gets used to the two minute run lap speed, you should notice his personal pace in the free run slowly increases. I, personally, hate running. But this method has helped me see improvements rather regularly and it's not the "Do it all now like me!" that tends to discourage fatbodies.

Push ups and sit ups should be done in a similar manner. Always set the goal to be a little more that the last session, even if it's just one rep. If you can, always work the opposite mostion as well, a pull exercise, body wieght or dumbells after pushups and back execrises after situps.

I'd suggest making a record of how well he does and how long it takes him to improve, so that you can show both him, and your superiors. Really Fat Camp needs to be in small groups to track like this, and if you can show he has constant improvement, you can even give a projected date for your superiors, it might help cut him the slack needed to improve and stay in. When he meets the standards, it should be easy to move him past that as well, all you have to do is drop a little bit of time on the sprint laps, 1:55 instead of 2:00 to see improvements.

[TRDL]

Also, advise him to not try to drop calorie intake to less than 1800 without working with a doc.

As far as metabolism, small snacks; beef jerky, fuit pieces, slim fast, whatever but no more than around 200 calories per 2 hours or so. Limit coffee and soda as much as possible, and drink 3-4 liters of water a day.

I hope it helps.

[Combat correspondent]

I am also excited about seeing the new brown book

And, TRDL, I talked to him today and he said he is not eating much at all - maybe this is part of his problem where he believes its a solution.

[TRDL]

What he's eating, when he's eating, and how much are all very important. The big problem(s) is the focus on waistline. He's got to add weight and some size to increase his overall strength and probably before he starts to see any kind of significant loss in stomach.

[weazlefuzion]

First, I have to say that I've been on leave for quite a while and I haven't read everything posted in the past month or two. Also, I wrote this in response to a different thread and realized I had digressed and that it was best fit here. I'm aware that some of these points have been tossed around plenty, but I'm looking for input on my concept of what training really is.

The real argument I have with the responses to almost everyone on here who throws around "we're not the Army" like a football is: since when did training become defined only by it's immediate, practical results? Do you think the Army uses pugil sticks to teach a Soldier how to fight with a bamboo rod in Iraq? How often do you think even a Marine, totally alone with no buddy to back him up, actually resorts to rolling around on the ground with an enemy?

Training us in infantry tactics and combatives and having better PT and all that happy horse crap has little to do with practical application of said training or even making us more "military", which many old hats on here testify is simply a ridiculous notion. I'm sorry, but that "Combat Finance" SrA isn't about to judo-chop his way out of Afghanistan any time soon, even with all that combatives training and land nav skills. What he is going to do, however, is know how to lead a small group in cleaning up his nasty ass office. He's going to learn how to properly lead and address his subordinates and those below him are going to know how to properly follow simple orders or how to tactfully question their superior when he finds something immoral or otherwise wrong.

The PACAF Deputy CC touched on some good points in today's "Wingman Day" briefing. More or less, it's point was this: Leadership doesn't end with the leader. It ends with his subordinates becoming leaders. You're not a leader to make this SrA a good SrA; you're a leader to make him a good SSgt. When you have absolutely no way to effectively lead an Airman, outside of your MPF or shop, he has no way to effectively learn. End paraphrasing...

In the new BEAST and other such training, almost every situation arises and everyone learns how to deal with it, either as a leader or a follower. People learn that rank does really matter, whether you call him Steve or "SSgt Smith". People learn that when you're told do something simple, menial, and seemingly ridiculously time-consuming, like SWAT (Seeds, Weeds, And Trash) duty, that maybe there's more meaning to it than just picking up cigarette butts. It's about pride in your dorms, unit, base, and Air Force. It's about unit cohesion and accountability for your actions. It's about doing something because you should, or there's a lesson to be learned; not because you'll get a better EPR, higher PT score, or some shiny medal.

I think the real reason for most failures we have is not because we're more military than we were, or less military than we should be, or too fat, or dumber, or lazy or cocky. It's because we have no pride. If there was more pride, more reason to want to look and feel good in your uniform and duties, we wouldn't need to have all this micromanagement and one-size-doesn't-actually-fit-all standards.

Just my $0.02.

[Combat correspondent]

First, I have to say that I've been on leave for quite a while and I haven't read everything posted in the past month or two. Also, I wrote this in response to a different thread and realized I had digressed and that it was best fit here. I'm aware that some of these points have been tossed around plenty, but I'm looking for input on my concept of what training really is.

The real argument I have with the responses to almost everyone on here who throws around "we're not the Army" like a football is: since when did training become defined only by it's immediate, practical results? Do you think the Army uses pugil sticks to teach a Soldier how to fight with a bamboo rod in Iraq? How often do you think even a Marine, totally alone with no buddy to back him up, actually resorts to rolling around on the ground with an enemy?

Training us in infantry tactics and combatives and having better PT and all that happy horse crap has little to do with practical application of said training or even making us more "military", which many old hats on here testify is simply a ridiculous notion. I'm sorry, but that "Combat Finance" SrA isn't about to judo-chop his way out of Afghanistan any time soon, even with all that combatives training and land nav skills. What he is going to do, however, is know how to lead a small group in cleaning up his nasty ass office. He's going to learn how to properly lead and address his subordinates and those below him are going to know how to properly follow simple orders or how to tactfully question their superior when he finds something immoral or otherwise wrong.

The PACAF Deputy CC touched on some good points in today's "Wingman Day" briefing. More or less, it's point was this: Leadership doesn't end with the leader. It ends with his subordinates becoming leaders. You're not a leader to make this SrA a good SrA; you're a leader to make him a good SSgt. When you have absolutely no way to effectively lead an Airman, outside of your MPF or shop, he has no way to effectively learn. End paraphrasing...

In the new BEAST and other such training, almost every situation arises and everyone learns how to deal with it, either as a leader or a follower. People learn that rank does really matter, whether you call him Steve or "SSgt Smith". People learn that when you're told do something simple, menial, and seemingly ridiculously time-consuming, like SWAT (Seeds, Weeds, And Trash) duty, that maybe there's more meaning to it than just picking up cigarette butts. It's about pride in your dorms, unit, base, and Air Force. It's about unit cohesion and accountability for your actions. It's about doing something because you should, or there's a lesson to be learned; not because you'll get a better EPR, higher PT score, or some shiny medal.

I think the real reason for most failures we have is not because we're more military than we were, or less military than we should be, or too fat, or dumber, or lazy or cocky. It's because we have no pride. If there was more pride, more reason to want to look and feel good in your uniform and duties, we wouldn't need to have all this micromanagement and one-size-doesn't-actually-fit-all standards.

Just my $0.02.

Darn good points there!

[TRDL]

People learn that when you're told do something simple, menial, and seemingly ridiculously time-consuming, like SWAT (Seeds, Weeds, And Trash) duty, that maybe there's more meaning to it than just picking up cigarette butts. It's about pride in your dorms, unit, base, and Air Force. It's about unit cohesion and accountability for your actions. It's about doing something because you should, or there's a lesson to be learned; not because you'll get a better EPR, higher PT score, or some shiny medal.

I think the real reason for most failures we have is not because we're more military than we were, or less military than we should be, or too fat, or dumber, or lazy or cocky. It's because we have no pride. If there was more pride, more reason to want to look and feel good in your uniform and duties, we wouldn't need to have all this micromanagement and one-size-doesn't-actually-fit-all standards.

Just my $0.02.

You know, I've seen 50+ airmen on their hands and knees picking up individual leaves, all damn day. Not because the squadron grounds needed it, not because we didn't have any rakes, or leaf blowers, but because they needed to have something to do. Where's pride come into play on that?

[weazlefuzion]

You know, I've seen 50+ airmen on their hands and knees picking up individual leaves, all damn day. Not because the squadron grounds needed it, not because we didn't have any rakes, or leaf blowers, but because they needed to have something to do. Where's pride come into play on that?

I never said to have them do busy work just for shits 'n' giggles. The pride comes in 1) making damn sure your unit is the best-looking on base and 2) knowing that you made it that way. The leadership training comes in the SrA, or God forbid the SSgt, being out there with them coordinating the clean up and learning how to lead. Do you honestly think there's more pride or more to be learned sitting on their hands in the office? Hell no. If there were leaves outside, then obviously the squadron needed the cleanup in some way.

If there's still someone below E-5, then there's someone who needs to learn to lead and follow. They won't learn that shooting the shit with their supervisor; they will learn it while interacting in a leader-follower based activity. Also, if the squadron really didn't need it, then you haven't in any way invalidated my point. The NCO or officer who wanted to "give them something to do" obviously had no pride in the organization or wasn't a talented enough person to find something else for them to work on. Then again, maybe it was that one day when people really were too busy to find something creative or constructive for them to work on and have them do SWAT was better than sending them home while they collect a paycheck. If the base commander came by right after, I'm sure he would have noticed that there wasn't a single damn leaf on the ground and he would have said something if he was worth his salt in rank. If not, then the problem lies in the CC and not in the Airmen.

[TRDL]

The NCO or officer who wanted to "give them something to do" obviously had no pride in the organization or wasn't a talented enough person to find something else for them to work on. Then again, maybe it was that one day when people really were too busy to find something creative or constructive for them to work on and have them do SWAT was better than sending them home while they collect a paycheck. If the base commander came by right after, I'm sure he would have noticed that there wasn't a single damn leaf on the ground and he would have said something if he was worth his salt in rank. If not, then the problem lies in the CC and not in the Airmen.

This is the part that I'm worried about. It's difficult, as someone new to the force, to hear that we're the best Air Force in the world, that we're valued as personell because of our skills, that we should take pride in ourselves and the Air Force, and then be told not only do we not have anything for you to do, we're not going to find a constructive way to employ you, or even teach you how to be a leader to others, we're going to send 50 of you to do what 2 airmen and a couple of rakes could do.

And this was a daily event.

[Sergeant T]

Air Force personnel should be spending the VAST majority of their workday working or training in their core AFSC skills set.

If a unit is so fubar that they can't employ their personnel, IG should be involved to get their leadership un-f***ed.

I get pissed off when I hear about BS like this. When an Airmen joins the military, goes through BMT, Tech school (some of which last over a year!) and then don't actually use those expensive skills... thats classic FWA.

I do agree with leadership skills and training, and that they can be learned in something as simple as weeds and seeds, so long as thats not the core of what our Airmen are doing day in and day out.

Our advanced skills training and focus on those skills is what made us the best Air Force in the world. Its taking our eye off of that ball thats led to so much degradation and Airmen beating down the door to get out.

[pheenix]

There are times when I view rank as an irrelevant feature.

In my opinion:

1) Nobody has any business delegating anything unless they have some form of authority.
1a. SrA 5-level in charge of a group composed of 3 Amn/A1C 3-levels and the SrA was tasked with getting a specific task done.

2) You're an AB, Amn, or A1C in tech school. Whoopdee friggin do, you've been in a whole 2 weeks longer than your E2 roommate.

Thankfully the students that I've had in the past that have outranked me all understand the difference between rank and authority. On a side note, I still feel a tad uncomfortable with people who outrank me adressing me as "sir". Rank/Last name is good enough.

[bluegreenish]

On target Chief... the same reason they walk & talk on ther cell phone/eat/drink/smoke, carry a red backpack, wear white socks, and all the rest... because it is their way of thumbing their nose at the system and knowing there is a 90% chance no one is going to confront them. And if thar are confronted, they claim ignorance, roll their eyes and go back to doing whatever they were doing calling you an a-hole under their breath. :rolleyes:

We need to band together as SNCOs and take back control... I'm all for correcting genuine mistakes... but when I know their full of doo-doo and giving me attitude, I call my fellow SNCO in their unit and hand their carcass to them to deal with and to ensure they are held accountable!

Completely agree with you! However, I have to say a lot of times is hard to correct people when.....for example about a month ago I was driving on the main street of my base and had to stop because someone carrying an eagle on their shoulders was crossing the street. This individual measurements were, well his/her abdominal circumsference was the same as his/her height, plus talking on the celphone while crossing the street......

[Combat correspondent]

Completely agree with you! However, I have to say a lot of times is hard to correct people when.....for example about a month ago I was driving on the main street of my base and had to stop because someone carrying an eagle on their shoulders was crossing the street. This individual measurements were, well his/her abdominal circumsference was the same as his/her height, plus talking on the celphone while crossing the street......

No sh!t.... and, you can't call them out for looking unprofessional in their uniforms. This was a huge topic of debate at the NCOA recently. We had 2 fat bodies in my flight and they'd get offended by the notion. But, an overwhelming majority of the TSgts at NCOA felt they should have it within their power to make a fat body get measured, etc., etc.

[bobbyb368]

Good lord i hope this isnt the air guard im hoping to join, im coming from active army and when someone above my grade says jump i jump! Uniform is always to standard as is gear lol hopefully that is what i look forward to but i do agree with lead from the front philosophy. The army smoked us if one person failed! We were a unit and a team one person fails in their duties, it could comprise a mission, so in a sense yes I AM my brothers keeper. Yes i was infantry lol

[Smeghead]

Good lord i hope this isnt the air guard im hoping to join, im coming from active army and when someone above my grade says jump i jump! Uniform is always to standard as is gear lol hopefully that is what i look forward to but i do agree with lead from the front philosophy. The army smoked us if one person failed! We were a unit and a team one person fails in their duties, it could comprise a mission, so in a sense yes I AM my brothers keeper. Yes i was infantry lol

Boy are you gonna be disappointed

[alfordr67]

Thanks, I just wish that if I were to go about enforcing rank the way the military should (the way the USMC does), that most leadership, and even senior leadership at Air Staff would not have my back. I have a feeling that I'm left with two choices here: join the Army, or join Marine Corps

Hey Brother! Don't join the darkside. Keep striving to do what's right in the AF. We NEED folks like you. I'm a TSgt and in my shop, I try to instill the right way to my troops. Rank MUST matter or it's worthless. Our enlisted force isn't broken, it's in need of MORE troops like you. You can't do it all on your own as an E-4, but you MUST hold your first line supervisors to the fire. I remember being a SSgt, and my MSgt boss calling me unreasonable for chastising my troop...a SrA. Stay and make the AF better don't give up or jump ship!

[alfordr67]

[/QUOTE] Thankfully the students that I've had in the past that have outranked me all understand the difference between rank and authority. On a side note, I still feel a tad uncomfortable with people who outrank me adressing me as "sir". Rank/Last name is good enough.[/QUOTE]

I make it a point to adress everyone by Sir/Ma'am even my troops so that they get used to saying/hearing it. I believe respect goes all ways in the chain of command - up, down, and laterally. Respect should be given to the person...but the person of higher rank has more authority. Especially since I run a Customer Oriented shop I don't want my Amn/NCOs slouching or sounding lax when dealing with people. Now when a customer goes in and is disrespectful, I defend my people, and if they screw up...it's MY mistake because I'm suppossed to be the leader.

[Combat correspondent]

Hey Brother! Don't join the darkside. Keep striving to do what's right in the AF. We NEED folks like you. I'm a TSgt and in my shop, I try to instill the right way to my troops. Rank MUST matter or it's worthless. Our enlisted force isn't broken, it's in need of MORE troops like you. You can't do it all on your own as an E-4, but you MUST hold your first line supervisors to the fire. I remember being a SSgt, and my MSgt boss calling me unreasonable for chastising my troop...a SrA. Stay and make the AF better don't give up or jump ship!

keep on keeping, sir!

[2T2_1997]

Why is it that we continually hear that the "problem" is first line supervisors? Yes everyone falls back on that dark, dark day in the AF when they GAVE AWAY SSgt. That's debatable. It's fact that they promoted alot. Also a fact that the force was about a third the size it had been 25 yrs prior. Common sense would say with more people it was harder to make E5 and the bar was set higher....it had to be.

I'm an E6 just hit my 12 yr mark. I'm told frequently that the problem with todays enlisted force is that front line supervisor (basically the E5 and E6's). Now I don't wanna throw all the SNCO's under the same bus; BUT how can a SNCO say to me with a straight face that my rank is the problem with todays kids? Isn't the problem in essence with the people who supervised that whole wave of E5's that they gave away? If the SNCO's had made us into better supervisors there wouldn't be a problem.

I have voiced this with friends of mine who are current and retired SNCO's. They don't like my opinion on this. But really.......when they tell me about how back in the day "when I was a E4 or E5 and an E6 or E7 spoke it was law" and on and on. Well, really the breakdown was when you became that E6 or E7 you let it slide and now we have a snowball.

[BRAVO10000]

Why is it that we continually hear that the "problem" is first line supervisors? Yes everyone falls back on that dark, dark day in the AF when they GAVE AWAY SSgt. That's debatable. It's fact that they promoted alot. Also a fact that the force was about a third the size it had been 25 yrs prior. Common sense would say with more people it was harder to make E5 and the bar was set higher....it had to be.

It is because too many people are charged with taking care of/mentoring airmen without an understanding of how to do so. You can't compare raw numbers and cutoff scores...I made Staff in 1991, and my promotion percentage was less than 5%. Whether that is one of 20 or 10 of 200, it doesn't compare to the rates now when almost have of eligibles are making it. We have folks becoming SNCOs on their first attempt that have no intention of staying in...that never happened in the Cold War era.

I'm an E6 just hit my 12 yr mark. I'm told frequently that the problem with todays enlisted force is that front line supervisor (basically the E5 and E6's). Now I don't wanna throw all the SNCO's under the same bus; BUT how can a SNCO say to me with a straight face that my rank is the problem with todays kids? Isn't the problem in essence with the people who supervised that whole wave of E5's that they gave away? If the SNCO's had made us into better supervisors there wouldn't be a problem.

With your point understood...that's doodoo. This smacks of a lack of accountability. The culture of our middle management these days is one that they are owed something, but they think that leadership happens from 0730-1630 (generalizing, obviously this is not everyone),. This is no different that a juvenile delinquent tuned adult, becoming a criminal and then blaming his parents. He's still accountable, and so are junior NCOs. The giveaway is FAR from debatable. I have guys that want time off to study for Tech but don't have any idea where their one and only troop lives or his wife/kids' names (yes, I said troop, so sue me).

I have voiced this with friends of mine who are current and retired SNCO's. They don't like my opinion on this. But really.......when they tell me about how back in the day "when I was a E4 or E5 and an E6 or E7 spoke it was law" and on and on. Well, really the breakdown was when you became that E6 or E7 you let it slide and now we have a snowball.

Remember that when you rate someone on their performance at EPR time, you do so in comparison with their career field peers. Other side of the coin, then, is that we're just choosing the least of the evils versus the best of the best. Maybe the talent pool is just a lot thinner these days. Not saying this is the case, playing devil's advocate.

And guess what...these careerists have began to overrun the SNCO corps as well. Maybe you work for one.

[omertalifestyle]

The main problem I see with the "new" Air Force is the kinder gentler approch......you get yelled at for jumping in an Airman's ass for doing something wrong, stupid, or dangerous.......so you can't make an example out of them because you might hurt their feelings......poor babies.

I say yell, scream, and come unhinged on their butts, that would show everyone around that what they did was wrong, and NOT to do it.

[2T2_1997]

With your point understood...that's doodoo. This smacks of a lack of accountability. The culture of our middle management these days is one that they are owed something, but they think that leadership happens from 0730-1630 (generalizing, obviously this is not everyone),. This is no different that a juvenile delinquent tuned adult, becoming a criminal and then blaming his parents. He's still accountable, and so are junior NCOs. The giveaway is FAR from debatable. I have guys that want time off to study for Tech but don't have any idea where their one and only troop lives or his wife/kids' names (yes, I said troop, so sue me).
.

You see it is lack of acountability; I see it as looking further into the problem than face value. Kind of like not judging a book by it's cover.

[Combat correspondent]

The main problem I see with the "new" Air Force is the kinder gentler approch......you get yelled at for jumping in an Airman's ass for doing something wrong, stupid, or dangerous.......so you can't make an example out of them because you might hurt their feelings......poor babies.

I say yell, scream, and come unhinged on their butts, that would show everyone around that what they did was wrong, and NOT to do it.

Yes indeed....AND there is nothing saying you have to follow suit. Or, anyone reading this, don't follow suit. Do what you know is right - not what is kinder and gentler. Screw what comes later - it won't hurt too bad! Trust me! I've been in a heap of shit since joining this Air Force and still get put in for step promotions and crap! People know a straight shooter, even if they are rough around the edges.