Prior Service, IET, Non-IET, NPS, MOST... Garbage, garbage, garbage!

[weazlefuzion]

What does everyone else think of the policy-mandated rift between the "pipeliners" and the prior service members, like cross-trainees (lat moves for you Marines)? I can completely understand a strong degree of separation on personal relationships between NCOs and junior-enlisted, but why keep an E-3 from an E-3? There is nothing in the Enlisted Force Structure guidance, at least in the Air Force, that suggests that the student E-3 is outranked by the prior service guy, so there seems to be no conflict of interests or disruption of unit morale and cohesion. To me, it seems like some bullshit left over from the old days, when it may have made sense in some manner.

Nowadays, however, it looks to me like it only causes more headaches from "frat" issues and prevents new recruits from being properly mentored and taught about their service as a whole.

I know it's more prevalent in the Army and Air Force, but I'm interested in the input from all services and hopefully from some senior enlisted members about the purpose behind it. I'm not one to bitch and whine about everything, but it often seems that sometimes rules are enforced blindly because they're rules and not in the spirit of the original intent and no one wants the task of taking a second look at the books.

Now, this doesn't apply to Permanent Party/Student separation. I can see the point in that... sometimes, but either way, any fraternization rule for enlisted folk should be based upon unit discipline and cohesion, and upon leadership mentality (i.e. junior-enlisted shouldn't hang out with NCOs no matter what, and the E-2 shouldn't hang out with his supervisor even though he's only an E-3).

[CrustySMSgt]

What does everyone else think of the policy-mandated rift between the "pipeliners" and the prior service members, like cross-trainees (lat moves for you Marines)? I can completely understand a strong degree of separation on personal relationships between NCOs and junior-enlisted, but why keep an E-3 from an E-3? There is nothing in the Enlisted Force Structure guidance, at least in the Air Force, that suggests that the student E-3 is outranked by the prior service guy, so there seems to be no conflict of interests or disruption of unit morale and cohesion. To me, it seems like some bullshit left over from the old days, when it may have made sense in some manner.

Nowadays, however, it looks to me like it only causes more headaches from "frat" issues and prevents new recruits from being properly mentored and taught about their service as a whole.

I know it's more prevalent in the Army and Air Force, but I'm interested in the input from all services and hopefully from some senior enlisted members about the purpose behind it. I'm not one to bitch and whine about everything, but it often seems that sometimes rules are enforced blindly because they're rules and not in the spirit of the original intent and no one wants the task of taking a second look at the books.

Now, this doesn't apply to Permanent Party/Student separation. I can see the point in that... sometimes, but either way, any fraternization rule for enlisted folk should be based upon unit discipline and cohesion, and upon leadership mentality (i.e. junior-enlisted shouldn't hang out with NCOs no matter what, and the E-2 shouldn't hang out with his supervisor even though he's only an E-3).


Glad you found the board to get out all these pent up issues you've been storing up. Sounds like you found it just in time before your head exploded!

Wasn't aware this was a big issue... maybe in longer schools, but for the most part, whose there long enough to care.

Pipeline students play by a different set of rules, so them hanging with the non-pipeline students doesn't make sense... they've got curfew, restrictions on where they can go, formations... and all the rest of the rules that are part of tech school. They aren't there to make friends and the ones they should be learning from are the instructors & MTLs. There will be plenty of time for them to make friends with thier peers.

And an E-3 can't supervise (at least not in the AF).

[weazlefuzion]

Glad you found the board to get out all these pent up issues you've been storing up. Sounds like you found it just in time before your head exploded!

Wasn't aware this was a big issue... maybe in longer schools, but for the most part, whose there long enough to care.

Pipeline students play by a different set of rules, so them hanging with the non-pipeline students doesn't make sense... they've got curfew, restrictions on where they can go, formations... and all the rest of the rules that are part of tech school. They aren't there to make friends and the ones they should be learning from are the instructors & MTLs. There will be plenty of time for them to make friends with thier peers.

And an E-3 can't supervise (at least not in the AF).

That actually makes sense. I never see that type of thing from the short-pipeline point of view after enlisting as a linguist. :tongue: Shouldn't there be a time cap on the NPS thing, especially when it comes to those long pipelines? The longest ones now have a "Phase Graduate" part of the phase program that essentially gives them all the same privileges of prior service students, but they still can't have those "unprofessional relationships" with PS.

As far as the rules and formations, I could get into a huge train wreck discussion about that. There should be a happy medium of a couple PTs and formations a week for all AF personnel, regardless of student/PP/TDY status. I think it would help promote a total unit cohesion with everyone being treated the same and it would bring NCOs much more in step with their subordinates.