PT Test Revamp

[aritter]

I just read an article in the Air Force Times concerning changing the Fitness Test. I agree with all the suggestions the PT leaders make. AFMC is again taking lead on different approaches to the fitness program that has gripped the Air Force unfortunately they are using the BMI which is a joke and is controversial to say the least. I think fitness is a good thing, I always thought it should be mandatory the entire 24 years I served, I retired as a First Sergeant in Sept 07 so I am very familiar with AFI 10-248.

I have heard all the complaints and concerns about the effect mandatory PT had on the mission, especially for career fields with 24/7 ops. I also heard the maintenace community because their schedules were tied to lauching aircraft. All the differences led to each squadron and flight doing there own thing, some better than others depending how much emphasise that particular squadron commander placed on the proram.

I have a suggestion to make this better. Look at how the other services do it. I was the First Sergeant for a multi serive unit when I was deployed. PT was a unti and base thing. The entire unti formed up and did pt. This makes sense, the Air Force is a military fighting machine, not a corporation. We need to function as such. The other units train all the time for war time missions, we do not. While in Disaster Preparedness we had a peacetime function that took the majority of our time. We did not have a lot of time to practice our wartime mission. I also saw this as the First Sergeant of a Security Forces Squadron, they spent their day doing peacetime police work, not practicing Air Base Ground Defense or combat tactics.

If you truly want our Airmen Fit to Fight then we need to go back to basics as a military branch and stop trying to function as a corporation.

A First Sergeant who cares.

[BigBaze]

They need to do away with the ridiculous waist measurement and BMI, so people with naturally thin waists of 28" can't just walk the entire mile and half and still pass while gym rats who have built up muscle get penalized by the waist measurement. They say the commanders can write a waiver for those that lift, but I have never seen it done, and when we asked our commander it got shot down.

[Q1Checkride]

They need to do away with the ridiculous waist measurement and BMI, so people with naturally thin waists of 28" can't just walk the entire mile and half and still pass.....

LOL. im 'that guy'. 35 yr old, 5'6, 135 lbs, 30' waist, can max both push ups/crunches, AND per the reg can use up to 15 min 48 secs to run the 1.5 and still score a 77. i run it in about 12:30 though for a score of 89.

[BadBender]

A few years ago when the Air Force had the “bike test” I always passed it. I also happened to smoke back then but yet I was deemed “healthy” by the system in place at the time. Since we started using the “new health measurement system” I have always maxed out my crunches and push ups and have run around an 11:30-12:44 1 ½ mile. I am also 6’6” and have had a constant 37-38 waist however I don’t have a “dun-lap” or “spare tire”. I am not a gym rat but when people need big heavy things moved they come to me because I am large and strong enough to move it. The smaller men, with smaller waists and better PT scores don’t get asked as much. I believe physical training is a good thing overall. The mind is willing but the flesh is weak so to speak. I don’t appreciate the way the scoring system is at the moment because big men like me get penalized for being, well big. I am the tallest man in my unit, I wear an 11 ½ wide boot, I wear the largest uniform they sell but I’m not a fat body. I’m just a big dude and I tower over everyone else. I watched the Olympics and noticed the Female Gold Medalist (American!), according to the BMI index is classified as “obese” while the female Gymnastics Gold Medalist (also American!) is classified as “under weight” and while I don’t claim to be an Olympian I wonder if they were to be in the service would there be some one trying to get them kicked out because they didn’t match the cookie cutter standard we have set for our selves? I remember General Jumper saying PT isn’t about the PT test; it’s about creating a culture of wellness and physical activity. It sure seems to be about the test these days.

[SecurityForces695]

I wonder what SMSgt Strong from Yokota, Japan would say about those that bitch about the pt test. RIP

[technomage1]

I wonder what SMSgt Strong from Yokota, Japan would say about those that bitch about the pt test. RIP

My condolences to his family. However, the AF knew this sort of thing would happen when they switched over from the bike test to the run and they considered it an acceptable risk. I'm not saying that is right or wrong, just that is what happened.

You have to wonder if he passed or not...and if there were circumstances involved. Was he on the fat boy program, did they tell him this was his last chance? Or was he healthy and in shape and it was just his time?

[smarg]

WHY is it that all the complaints about the PT test come from:

1. Maintenance whiners, and
2. Beer gut folks who can't stand the waist measurements???

[technomage1]

WHY is it that all the complaints about the PT test come from:

1. Maintenance whiners, and
2. Beer gut folks who can't stand the waist measurements???

I hate the waist measurement, but I have no beer gut. I'm just tall. I scored an "Excellent" last test by ensuring my BMI was under the max.

[CrustySMSgt]

WHY is it that all the complaints about the PT test come from:

1. Maintenance whiners, and
2. Beer gut folks who can't stand the waist measurements???

For the record, I am not MX (but my wife, who averages ~95 on the test is) and I don't drink. :rolleyes:

[CrustySMSgt]

My condolences to his family. However, the AF knew this sort of thing would happen when they switched over from the bike test to the run and they considered it an acceptable risk. I'm not saying that is right or wrong, just that is what happened.

You have to wonder if he passed or not...and if there were circumstances involved. Was he on the fat boy program, did they tell him this was his last chance? Or was he healthy and in shape and it was just his time?

He was my wife's 1st Sgt until he changed Sqs a couple months ago. I don't think he was on the program... but don't know for certain. He was a big guy, but not a "BIG" guy.

[KOTULCN]

well being maintenance I can tell you why most of us are upset. Do YOU consistently work 12-14 hour days week in and week out, well I do and when you are outside crewing a jet in Phoenix when it is 110 degrees and you get off work you have zero energy for the gym, let alone any time to spend with your family.

[MACHINE666]

well being maintenance I can tell you why most of us are upset. Do YOU consistently work 12-14 hour days week in and week out, well I do and when you are outside crewing a jet in Phoenix when it is 110 degrees and you get off work you have zero energy for the gym, let alone any time to spend with your family.

Silly rabbit...don'tchoo know that the needs of the Air Force come first?!

But I too am tired of this whole focus on fitness...it's like we're purposely dumbing ourselves down to the other branches' level - like taking a nerd and trying to turn him into a football jock or something. In Revenge of the Nerd part 2, Ogre became a nerd in the end, so why don't we demand the other branches follow suit and become more like the Air Force??

:D :D :D :D :D

[Shrike]

Silly rabbit...don'tchoo know that the needs of the Air Force come first?!

But I too am tired of this whole focus on fitness...it's like we're purposely dumbing ourselves down to the other branches' level - like taking a nerd and trying to turn him into a football jock or something. In Revenge of the Nerd part 2, Ogre became a nerd in the end, so why don't we demand the other branches follow suit and become more like the Air Force??

:D :D :D :D :D

I nominate this for "Best Post on the Air Force PT Program".

:D

[BadBender]

I second this nomination!

[MaintChief]

WHY is it that all the complaints about the PT test come from:

1. Maintenance whiners, and
2. Beer gut folks who can't stand the waist measurements???

Because when you run a 24/7 operation and can't shut down for the afternoon for "in-house training" or allow your entire shift off for unit PT you become rather irate at assholes who don't have a clue trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

I love the AF Times. Exactly how many of these unit PTL's have a degree in exercise physiology or are MD's? Their opinion is strictly that...an opinion, with no scientific study and analysis to back it up.

PT is not the be-all/end-all of what the USAF is. Once again...if DOES NOT MATTER IF WE ALL SCORE 100 ON THE PT TEST IF OUR MC RATES ARE 50%!!! We have failed at our primary mission...namely to FLY, FIGHT, and WIN!!!

Now, back to your regularly scheduled rants...

[10Man]

WHY is it that all the complaints about the PT test come from:

1. Maintenance whiners, and
2. Beer gut folks who can't stand the waist measurements???
Watch the broad categorizing, I'm a maintenance guy, I passed with a 78%! Not all maintenance people whine, at least the ones I know don't. We get at our tests and do what we have to do, I'm not 5'6" with a body weight of 160 nor do I have a 32 inch waist. So go easy on the broad statements.:D

[10Man]

Because when you run a 24/7 operation and can't shut down for the afternoon for "in-house training" or allow your entire shift off for unit PT you become rather irate at assholes who don't have a clue trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

I love the AF Times. Exactly how many of these unit PTL's have a degree in exercise physiology or are MD's? Their opinion is strictly that...an opinion, with no scientific study and analysis to back it up.

PT is not the be-all/end-all of what the USAF is. Once again...if DOES NOT MATTER IF WE ALL SCORE 100 ON THE PT TEST IF OUR MC RATES ARE 50%!!! We have failed at our primary mission...namely to FLY, FIGHT, and WIN!!!

Now, back to your regularly scheduled rants...
Good one MaintChief!

[Measure Man]

Because when you run a 24/7 operation and can't shut down for the afternoon for "in-house training" or allow your entire shift off for unit PT you become rather irate at assholes who don't have a clue trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

I love the AF Times. Exactly how many of these unit PTL's have a degree in exercise physiology or are MD's? Their opinion is strictly that...an opinion, with no scientific study and analysis to back it up.

Well...they have had the CBT and 2-hour class at the HAWC...I mean, it don't get much more expert than that!!! They are TRAINED!!

PT is not the be-all/end-all of what the USAF is. Once again...if DOES NOT MATTER IF WE ALL SCORE 100 ON THE PT TEST IF OUR MC RATES ARE 50%!!! We have failed at our primary mission...namely to FLY, FIGHT, and WIN!!!

Now, back to your regularly scheduled rants...

MC rates won't get the average person a mark-down...only PT, CCAF, PME or an alcohol-related incident will do that...let's focus on what's important.

{hopefully the sarcasm was detected}

[BRUWIN]

Look...I have tried to get you guys on board with this idea and nobody follows my lead. If we all just fail the test they can't kick us all out so why is everybody so determined to pass it? I mean c'mon folks..this ain't rocket science....fail your damn PT tests and let's move past this whole PT thing.

[Sgt Grandpa]

Look...I have tried to get you guys on board with this idea and nobody follows my lead. If we all just fail the test they can't kick us all out so why is everybody so determined to pass it? I mean c'mon folks..this ain't rocket science....fail your damn PT tests and let's move past this whole PT thing.

Because that would be considered mutiny. And yes ALL services can try people for mutiny, not just the Navy.

but it doooes bring to question "What if...?"

[BRUWIN]

Because that would be considered mutiny.



Well thanks a lot. I've now lost my appetite for this plate of Krispy Kremes in front of me.

[sigecaps]

But I too am tired of this whole focus on fitness...it's like we're purposely dumbing ourselves down to the other branches' level - like taking a nerd and trying to turn him into a football jock or something.

This sentiment comes from those who see all the glory that is going to the Army and Marines in this ground-pounding war, and out of insecurity feel the need to convince themselves that Airmen are warriors just like them. Hence the new PT standards. Hence the Airman's Creed.

But we don't need to be suckered into the game of jockeying for Alpha-male status that the Marines and sometimes Army try to pull on us. It's silly. It proves nothing. And most importantly, as a maintainer already pointed out, it's not germane to our existence as a service.

[BTDTNM]

This has been going on for years. Hopefully the crazy on-the-spot thing dies. Is this really the single most pressing issue the AF has to worry about right now? The war has been going on since 2003. "Fit to Fight" is just more propaganda to get some general promoted. This is crazy.

[BigBaze]

This has been going on for years. Hopefully the crazy on-the-spot thing dies. Is this really the single most pressing issue the AF has to worry about right now? The war has been going on since 2003. "Fit to Fight" is just more propaganda to get some general promoted. This is crazy.


That's the way of the Air Force, fixing things that ain't broke

[Bleedblue]

The PT program is a joke, because we want it to be. As a past MTI, we all PT at the same time everyday together, I see the Army do it in the early mornings, So why can't the Base...thats right...the base as a whole do PT every morning, sure some will be manning critical jobs but those are less than 5%(guessing)
Sports days ? wow 8-ball , darts, Bowling ??? really, sports days should be quarterly and should be similar to what BMT does for "Warrior Challenge". But we want 36 year old mean to have a 32 inch waist and weigh about 130 pounds and run a 90 second lap for a 1.5 miler, I guess so we can run away from the enemy....yet I still see huge fat Airman waddeling around base or parked at BK or the food court.

[hydroguy]

didnt i just see that the army and marines changed their pt test? the army got it right i think. in the article it stated something about not needing the skinny people or the fat people but they wanted someone in the middle. and since when in combat does a person run 1.5 miles? never. its sprinting and walking carrying gear. its funny watching airmen on the line push and pull stands around, lift parts, etc.. but they score well on the pt test. i can push a hobart, ace, or a mule by myself. it takes 2 or 3 of those 29 or 30 inch waisters...

[CrustySMSgt]

The PT program is a joke, because we want it to be. As a past MTI, we all PT at the same time everyday together, I see the Army do it in the early mornings, So why can't the Base...thats right...the base as a whole do PT every morning, sure some will be manning critical jobs but those are less than 5%(guessing)

Did you do PT with Lackland as a whole (since you make a point of the entire base PTing)? I think if you factor in shift workers, the flightline, cops, comm, services, and all the rest of the units with 24/7 missions that can't just shut down and PT, you will find that 5% is probably a pretty low estimate. Very hard to compare an operational AFB with an Army unit, who has thousands of people whose sole purpose in life is to train while in garrison.

Here the host wing has a wing run every Friday that is supposed to be mandatory... It gets a decent turnout, but I know there are more than a few hundred folks assigned, so I know it is far from an "all hands."

[Bleedblue]

Well, the BMT or training side of the base did, the other side operated as typical fashion.
I have been a shift worker on the Flight line my whole career, your preaching to the choir.
If we want to thread the needle we can, their is always an excuse why something can't be done.
We treat our gyms like its Bally's total fitness, when we should treat it like the Biggest Loser. It dosent matter guy, what your job is, its time managment. Your trying to tell me the Army and Marines have nothing else to do besides workout, comon...all i see in this program is people working the system, other turning a blind eye and alot of people making excuses.

[Bleedblue]

Explain this-- at my CCAF graduation last week as I was lined up in the hallway waiting to go in as a class a SrA female walked past me that was huge. My wife(5 years active duty) now a civilian, jaw dropped. This Airman took two seats to sit a butt cheek on each folding chair. I bet though she was within her body fat because she was short, and probably on an eternal waiver.

[Bleedblue]

WHY is it that all the complaints about the PT test come from:

1. Maintenance whiners, and
2. Beer gut folks who can't stand the waist measurements???
you must work(ocupy) finance or an MPF building.

[sigecaps]

The PT program is a joke, because we want it to be. As a past MTI, we all PT at the same time everyday together, I see the Army do it in the early mornings, So why can't the Base...thats right...the base as a whole do PT every morning, sure some will be manning critical jobs but those are less than 5%(guessing).

Go tell the Wing Commander that you want to cut back on sorties so your maintainers can PT, and see what kind of reaction you get. The Air Force and Army have very different mission sets. I know it's hard to understand, but...

[Bleedblue]

Last time I checked, are bodies were the same....so what your telling me is that its more important for other branches to be fit and healthy....sacrafice mine to send up a cocky 23 year old "rockstar" that gets "crew rest", for what ? If I could do it all over again, with what I know, I would have steered clear of Aircraft Maintenance, It dosent pay. Because any topic/situation you trow up, the sortie will always win.

[technomage1]

I agree with Bleedblue on this point. PT should be considered as a part of our mission, and we should be manned to the levels required to do our mission. If that means that we need more people so that we can do PT during the duty day, so be it.

[Bleedblue]

I agree with Bleedblue on this point. PT should be considered as a part of our mission, and we should be manned to the levels required to do our mission. If that means that we need more people so that we can do PT during the duty day, so be it.
Rodger that....or find a test that makes sense.

[CrustySMSgt]

Well, the BMT or training side of the base did, the other side operated as typical fashion.
I have been a shift worker on the Flight line my whole career, your preaching to the choir.
If we want to thread the needle we can, their is always an excuse why something can't be done.
We treat our gyms like its Bally's total fitness, when we should treat it like the Biggest Loser. It dosent matter guy, what your job is, its time managment. Your trying to tell me the Army and Marines have nothing else to do besides workout, comon...all i see in this program is people working the system, other turning a blind eye and alot of people making excuses.

So the answer is no, the entire base didn't do PT, so your own example of how it can work is flawed.

Yes, I AM telling you the majority of Army and Marine units have nothing else to do but train (PT included). What do you think an infantry unit does while in garrison? Train, details, and more training. Same for the Marines. It is very easy to shut down an entire base focused on the same mission to do PT... chow hall works around PT hours, support agencies... all of it... because PT IS part of their mission.... has been since their inception. We've been trying to make it part of ours for 4-6 years... and it is still not incorperated into manpower standards and the mission. Call it a time management issue or excuses if you will... when you've got to man a 24/7 work center already on 12s, and most people are humping the entire 12 hours, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to do the math, the numbers don't add up.

I agree with Bleedblue on this point. PT should be considered as a part of our mission, and we should be manned to the levels required to do our mission. If that means that we need more people so that we can do PT during the duty day, so be it.


I agree that it should be... but until we have the resources to make it happen, the mission will always come first.

[Bleedblue]

So the answer is no, the entire base didn't do PT, so your own example of how it can work is flawed.

Yes, I AM telling you the majority of Army and Marine units have nothing else to do but train (PT included). What do you think an infantry unit does while in garrison? Train, details, and more training. Same for the Marines. It is very easy to shut down an entire base focused on the same mission to do PT... chow hall works around PT hours, support agencies... all of it... because PT IS part of their mission.... has been since their inception. We've been trying to make it part of ours for 4-6 years... and it is still not incorperated into manpower standards and the mission. Call it a time management issue or excuses if you will... when you've got to man a 24/7 work center already on 12s, and most people are humping the entire 12 hours, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to do the math, the numbers don't add up.




I agree that it should be... but until we have the resources to make it happen, the mission will always come first.
They could have....BMT is all about time maagment and mission accomplisment. I worked 16-18 hour shifts.
I guess you have to wait for people to retire,get fired or die, to make inprovments anymore. Maybe...just maybe....if we stop making crew chiefs auggies for other career feilds (cops and CE ) we would be able to do that....or maybe...just maybe if we could stop throwin each other under the bus on the flight line and work together....humm...maybe the whole base should work according to the weekly flying schedule. Why should maintainers be the only ones to get consistently screwed. Your a SMSgt ? tell me how to implement PT.....

[aritter]

My original post was not to start a bickering contest between people. My point was if we are going to do this then we must look at all of it and how to make it part of the duty day. Yes every squadron has a unique job and requirements. Yes the maintenance community has worked 12s as long as I can remember. Everyone who has replied has a valid point. Now CMSAF McKinney and the CSAF need to look at how to make it all work whether it means adding more people, reducing sorties or whatever it takes. If they truly want a healthier force then they need to look at all of it.

I was the first sergeant of service, maitenance operations, medical, logistic readiness and the security forces and they all worked thier asses off doing their part of the mission. Every squadron and AFSC works hard.

[Bleedblue]

My original post was not to start a bickering contest between people. My point was if we are going to do this then we must look at all of it and how to make it part of the duty day. Yes every squadron has a unique job and requirements. Yes the maintenance community has worked 12s as long as I can remember. Everyone who has replied has a valid point. Now CMSAF McKinney and the CSAF need to look at how to make it all work whether it means adding more people, reducing sorties or whatever it takes. If they truly want a healthier force then they need to look at all of it.

I was the first sergeant of service, maitenance operations, medical, logistic readiness and the security forces and they all worked thier asses off doing their part of the mission. Every squadron and AFSC works hard.
I suppose, I always found it funny though how many agencies on base work a straight 8 hour shift, guareented lunch "Hour", no swing or mid shift(by the way-mid shift isnt authorized AFI 21-101) and had days or hours where they were closed for training. Other than Cops I have to chuckle shirt at your comment....I have augmentees for all those jobs.....services...LOL...during an exercise the only thing open is the morgue ! It dosent take a genious to pass out an MRE....lets see augmentees for crew chiefs or weapons load teams....I am tired of the MPF/finance etc group trying to grip to the same level of importance as Maintenance....everytime I cut my own orders,fix my own records, or use one of their web sites.....

[Bleedblue]

But...I got off on a tangent....
Anyhow....fitness and your health is important.
If you give a lazy or unmotivated person an "OUT", they will take it.
rationalization is the norm nowadays but remeber this,
When YOU retire nobody is going to remember the sacrafice or neglet you gave your body for the sortie...only you and your doctor, now thats real.

[horse]

I suppose, I always found it funny though how many agencies on base work a straight 8 hour shift, guareented lunch "Hour", no swing or mid shift(by the way-mid shift isnt authorized AFI 21-101) and had days or hours where they were closed for training. Other than Cops I have to chuckle shirt at your comment....I have augmentees for all those jobs.....services...LOL...during an exercise the only thing open is the morgue ! It dosent take a genious to pass out an MRE....lets see augmentees for crew chiefs or weapons load teams....I am tired of the MPF/finance etc group trying to grip to the same level of importance as Maintenance....everytime I cut my own orders,fix my own records, or use one of their web sites.....

Would you rather have more manpower to do PT across the base or to process your orders, validate your travel vouchers, take care of security clearances, etc., etc?

[Bleedblue]

Would you rather have more manpower to do PT across the base or to process your orders, validate your travel vouchers, take care of security clearances, etc., etc?
Duck.....that one came from the back......
I still do the same job I have done as a crew chief since 15 years ago, but now I do everything else on top of it, such as those you have stated plus more,and plus my younger guys agument other AFSC's. Not to mention additional duties and all the nonsense that comes from them. The ancillary training... I just feel a great sense in pride when I strap on my reflective belt to walk from the building to my car so QA won't write me up. Hoo-RAH !

[Bleedblue]

ok people...I am unsubscribing to this.....workout or don't....hell go eat a big mac everynight right before bed !
I love seeing you fatties around base....it boostd my self esteem !

[yankeesr1962]

Ok people ENOUGH......Bottom line is this: It is a requirement. Stop the complaining and do what is expected of you. Find the time to do it. I don't give a crap if you work 12 hour days. Find the time. I'm 46 yrs old and have never scored below a 90...why? because I take the time to work out. That might mean getting up at 4 am and residing on 4 hours of sleep or less, why because its a requirement. How can I possibly expect my airman to follow the rules if I can't set the example for them. If you want to fix this problem of fitness once and for all, tie this fitness exam to promotion straight up (both officer and enlisted) and make the fit test a PASS/FAIL in every aspect and don't even tell me that it is with the new EPR standard of meets/ does not meet. This won't affect promtions as much as the senior leadership thinks it will. If you can find the time to study for promotion then you can find the time to workout PERIOD!!. I am sick and tired of our senior leadership telling us WE CAN'T DO THAT...That wouldn't be fair. THIS IS THE MILITARY..Its not a freaking democracy. Here is an example of how to fix this issue. Each age group has a certain amount of pushups/situps to do. If you can't do that amount. YOU FAIL....hence, you cannot be promoted no matter what. Also, each age group has a certain time to make on the run, if you don't make your run time. YOU FAIL....hence you cannot be promoted. Get rid of the waist measurement, thats a waste of time and effort. If you're working out on a consistant basis, you will pass the test. Hence you will not have anything to worry about. I promise you this much, if we went to a standard of this type, the fatties would do one of two things, bust their ass to get back into shape, or don't and don't get promoted. I don't care one way or the other, but what I do care about is this fitness test and the simple fact that NOTHING ever changes, and this debate continues. If you can't pass your test, you are not working out. This debate has gone on long enough. Quit the hand holding, babying our folks, and singing around the campfire. Oh for the record, I go to school, (and yes I have my CCAF) and working on my bachelors, find time to study for promotion, still have time for family, friends, and whatever else the USAF throws my way. MAKE IT HAPPEN PEOPLE. STOP MAKING EXCUSES!!!!!!!!!

[Shrike]

Ok people ENOUGH......Bottom line is this: It is a requirement. Stop the complaining and do what is expected of you. Find the time to do it. I don't give a crap if you work 12 hour days. Find the time. I'm 46 yrs old and have never scored below a 90...why? because I take the time to work out. That might mean getting up at 4 am and residing on 4 hours of sleep or less, why because its a requirement. How can I possibly expect my airman to follow the rules if I can't set the example for them. If you want to fix this problem of fitness once and for all, tie this fitness exam to promotion straight up (both officer and enlisted) and make the fit test a PASS/FAIL in every aspect and don't even tell me that it is with the new EPR standard of meets/ does not meet. This won't affect promtions as much as the senior leadership thinks it will. If you can find the time to study for promotion then you can find the time to workout PERIOD!!. I am sick and tired of our senior leadership telling us WE CAN'T DO THAT...That wouldn't be fair. THIS IS THE MILITARY..Its not a freaking democracy. Here is an example of how to fix this issue. Each age group has a certain amount of pushups/situps to do. If you can't do that amount. YOU FAIL....hence, you cannot be promoted no matter what. Also, each age group has a certain time to make on the run, if you don't make your run time. YOU FAIL....hence you cannot be promoted. Get rid of the waist measurement, thats a waste of time and effort. If you're working out on a consistant basis, you will pass the test. Hence you will not have anything to worry about. I promise you this much, if we went to a standard of this type, the fatties would do one of two things, bust their ass to get back into shape, or don't and don't get promoted. I don't care one way or the other, but what I do care about is this fitness test and the simple fact that NOTHING ever changes, and this debate continues. If you can't pass your test, you are not working out. This debate has gone on long enough. Quit the hand holding, babying our folks, and singing around the campfire. Oh for the record, I go to school, (and yes I have my CCAF) and working on my bachelors, find time to study for promotion, still have time for family, friends, and whatever else the USAF throws my way. MAKE IT HAPPEN PEOPLE. STOP MAKING EXCUSES!!!!!!!!!

The Air Force used to pride itself on its intelligent, innovative, creative thinking people. Implement something like the above, and we'll be back to the Army Air Corps. I don't look forward to being deployed at an AOC next to some clueless idiot who doesn't know a damned thing about what they're supposed to be doing, but has washboard abs and can do 300 pushups in 7 minutes.

We are not the Army.

We are not the Marines.

We have a completely different mission.

Is fitness important? Yes. Is it the be all, end all determining factor of an Airman's worth? Hell no. The ability of an individual to accomplish the mission they are trained and paid to do used to be the most important factor in judging them. Amazingly enough, the USAF didn't fall apart while having that attitude. In fact, the USAF thrived.

[omertalifestyle]

:Ok people ENOUGH......Bottom line is this: It is a requirement. Stop the complaining and do what is expected of you. Find the time to do it. I don't give a crap if you work 12 hour days. Find the time. I'm 46 yrs old and have never scored below a 90...why? because I take the time to work out. That might mean getting up at 4 am and residing on 4 hours of sleep or less, why because its a requirement. How can I possibly expect my airman to follow the rules if I can't set the example for them. If you want to fix this problem of fitness once and for all, tie this fitness exam to promotion straight up (both officer and enlisted) and make the fit test a PASS/FAIL in every aspect and don't even tell me that it is with the new EPR standard of meets/ does not meet. This won't affect promtions as much as the senior leadership thinks it will. If you can find the time to study for promotion then you can find the time to workout PERIOD!!. I am sick and tired of our senior leadership telling us WE CAN'T DO THAT...That wouldn't be fair. THIS IS THE MILITARY..Its not a freaking democracy. Here is an example of how to fix this issue. Each age group has a certain amount of pushups/situps to do. If you can't do that amount. YOU FAIL....hence, you cannot be promoted no matter what. Also, each age group has a certain time to make on the run, if you don't make your run time. YOU FAIL....hence you cannot be promoted. Get rid of the waist measurement, thats a waste of time and effort. If you're working out on a consistant basis, you will pass the test. Hence you will not have anything to worry about. I promise you this much, if we went to a standard of this type, the fatties would do one of two things, bust their ass to get back into shape, or don't and don't get promoted. I don't care one way or the other, but what I do care about is this fitness test and the simple fact that NOTHING ever changes, and this debate continues. If you can't pass your test, you are not working out. This debate has gone on long enough. Quit the hand holding, babying our folks, and singing around the campfire. Oh for the record, I go to school, (and yes I have my CCAF) and working on my bachelors, find time to study for promotion, still have time for family, friends, and whatever else the USAF throws my way. MAKE IT HAPPEN PEOPLE. STOP MAKING EXCUSES!!!!!!!!!

Now this may work for people that work a non'er job, but it sure as hell won't work for the flightline, I mean come on guy, you know as well as I do that if I was to take my Airmen, work them into the ground, assign them augmentee duty, and then PT on top of that, they would get maybe 4 hours of sleep. What would you answer the commander if a jet crashed that one of those Airmen worked on? What if because of the lack of sleep, they couldn't do their inspections and servicing properly and may have missed a crucial step.

Plus there are certain career fields that do not allow work to be done after you hit a 12 hour mark, so if the AFI states that PT will be scheduled "during the duty day", that means that it is a 10 hour day, plus 2 hours for PT if you want to do 12. I am mad because other shops on base are allowed to completely close up so they can goto PT but the flightline will never be allowed to put the flying on hold for the health of its Airmen.

I want to do PT more than anyone in my shop, but all the obligations that we are commited to now make PT that last thing on our minds.

[yankeesr1962]

If you don't like it then quit...and it sounds like you already have. Bitching and complaining and not doing something about the problem is in a sense quitting Don't go complaining when you don't get your firewall 5 or your fresh medal for PCS because you have shut down and decided to not do your part and work out. The Air Force has turned into a corporate run whinning bunch of babies. Stop with the excuses and make it happen. If your the boss, it is your job to change your shop schedule to allow your folks the time to PT. If you can't do that, then maybe you shouldn't be the boss. If your going to hold the AFI up and preach it to the end all then change the schedule. Maybe you need to come in early by 2hrs to get your PT in. BOTTOM LINE. FIND THE TIME IN YOUR DAY TO GET IT DONE.......oh unless you need your beauty sleep and a full 8 hrs. I can't speak for all Airman, but the people mostly complaining usually are those that can't pass the bloody test. It's each and everyones duty to find time to work out. Run or bike to work. Hmmmmmmm what a fresh idea. Oh wait, that won't work, your next excuse will be, how am I suppose to get home.....I can't tell you how to run your life or what your priorities are, thats up to you, but this fit to fight and fitness as a whole is here to stay so quit the crying and embrace it. The sooner you do, your airman and the USAF will be alot better off. The more you fight it, the tougher it will be.

[smarg]

Watch the broad categorizing, I'm a maintenance guy, I passed with a 78%! Not all maintenance people whine, at least the ones I know don't. We get at our tests and do what we have to do, I'm not 5'6" with a body weight of 160 nor do I have a 32 inch waist. So go easy on the broad statements.:D

OK, I'm known for being a LITTLE BIT of a smart-ass and ranter on this board...;)

But hey, I just notice a pattern; just about EVERY item or edict that the AF comes out with, like uniforms, shifts, deployments, sortie rates, or PT stuff, etc, GUESS WHO ALWAYS BITCHES and WHINES FIRST AND THE MOST??

It ain't the cops. Or the nurses. Or the intel folks.

Could it be....

MAINTENANCE?????? :D

[Shrike]

If you don't like it then quit...and it sounds like you already have. Bitching and complaining and not doing something about the problem is in a sense quitting Don't go complaining when you don't get your firewall 5 or your fresh medal for PCS because you have shut down and decided to not do your part and work out. The Air Force has turned into a corporate run whinning bunch of babies. Stop with the excuses and make it happen. If your the boss, it is your job to change your shop schedule to allow your folks the time to PT. If you can't do that, then maybe you shouldn't be the boss. If your going to hold the AFI up and preach it to the end all then change the schedule. Maybe you need to come in early by 2hrs to get your PT in. BOTTOM LINE. FIND THE TIME IN YOUR DAY TO GET IT DONE.......oh unless you need your beauty sleep and a full 8 hrs. I can't speak for all Airman, but the people mostly complaining usually are those that can't pass the bloody test. It's each and everyones duty to find time to work out. Run or bike to work. Hmmmmmmm what a fresh idea. Oh wait, that won't work, your next excuse will be, how am I suppose to get home.....I can't tell you how to run your life or what your priorities are, thats up to you, but this fit to fight and fitness as a whole is here to stay so quit the crying and embrace it. The sooner you do, your airman and the USAF will be alot better off. The more you fight it, the tougher it will be.

Yet you've posted two large, frothing rants doing exactly that.

[Measure Man]

Here is where we are at with the PT test. Here is a story of two MSgts.

MSgt A, NCOIC of Office A
Scores 92 on PT
Office A scored "Marginal" on major IG inspection

MSgt B, NCOIC of Office B
Scored 72 on PT
Office B scored "Excellent" on major IG inspection

MSgt A will be promoted and get a firewall EPR and a decoration when he leaves.

MSgt B will get a markdown or referral...no decoration...probably never make SMSgt.

[SinisterK9]

Some of the same typical bullshit responses.

PT and the mission CAN co-exist at the same time. The Army and Marines have been doing it forever.
Yes, there are too many points awarded to the waist measurement. But you can do something about it, because you know what the standard is year around, and you have access to free gym equipment, and certified dieticians at your local HAWC. Get your ass up and take control of your score.
And back to the weight lifting argument once again since someone brought it up. Lifting weights is no excuse for having a large waist. Schwarzenegger had a 34 inch waist in his bodybuilding prime.

[Shrike]

Some of the same typical bullshit responses.

PT and the mission CAN co-exist at the same time. The Army and Marines have been doing it forever.
Yes, there are too many points awarded to the waist measurement. But you can do something about it, because you know what the standard is year around, and you have access to free gym equipment, and certified dieticians at your local HAWC. Get your ass up and take control of your score.
And back to the weight lifting argument once again since someone brought it up. Lifting weights is no excuse for having a large waist. Schwarzenegger had a 34 inch waist in his bodybuilding prime.

Same, typical bullshit responses to the responses.

The Army and the Marines have completely different missions than us. For the most part, what are soldiers and marines doing while not deployed? Training...constantly. And PT is part of that constant training for them. You want to do PT all the time? Go be a grunt. You want to dismiss legitimate complaints about an inequitable program that was half-assedly implemented? Take control - don't read them.

[omertalifestyle]

First of all, SPs are run like the Army since they act like the Army about 90 percent of the time, all Personelist get everything that they want, a lunch time, PT formation, training days every month, office closures for official functions, on not to mention that they are only open from 830-1500 every single day (except Fridays when they close at 1300 for PT!!!!).

Medical does quite a bit, but they still get all the niceties of an office job, and they get PT time on top of that

Maintenance has the right to complain because without us the mission would FAIL!!! We split up into a maintenance side and an Ops side so that the Maintanence commander could tell Ops to take a hike when current manning couldn't support the flying schedule, but alas Ops always wins because the Wing Commander is always on their side since they do need their hours and training.

So while we bust our butts 24/7 to support the mission, there is no one on base to support us 24/7. We are always met by closed signs, rude people, and referrals to websites so that the guy behind the desk doesn't have to stop surfing the web and get off his butt.

You probably don't realize what maintenance actually does so I'll enlighten you, we maintain all the aircraft to ensure safety for the pilot and mission capability, this includes inspections, forms, IMDS, records checks, phase inspections, aircraft washes & lubes, hotpits, engines changes, heavy maintenance to include hydraulic / fuel / pneumatic / flight controls / weapons systems / avionic systems / electrical and environmental / FOD walks/ End of Runway inspections/ and on top of all that we still have to maintain many of the programs you have to maintain plus ones dictated by AFI 21-101. We support the flying schedule during surges, night flying, exercises, and deployments. Oh and lets not forget the occasional incentive flight that is given to some MPFer that hasn't even been on station more than a year.

People tend to forget that if it wasn't for maintenance people, the Air Force would cease to exist and you guys would all be a part of the Army or Marines. This isn't about people not wanting to do the fitness requirements, this is about people not having the means to do it. Not every base out there has a 24 hour Gym, an we can't just shut down everything to go run around a track like everyone else. Maybe if all areas on base were open 24 hours like us, and had to work non stop during those 24 hours, then maybe our point of view wouldn't get lost in the shuffle.

[SinisterK9]

And here we go again. Yes the Army and Marines have a different specific mission, but we are all part of the Armed Forces and all share a common goal. Further, we all are subject to the UCMJ and follow the orders and intents of those appointed over us.
The powers that be want PT. But excuses is all you seem to get from half the troops out there. It's not hard. These are not olympic standards. Meet them or don't. If you don't meet them, then good luck blaming someone else for your referral EPR.

omertalifestyle,

Don't turn this into a pissing contest. This has nothing to do with that. Yes, I respect the fact you work. My career field is 24/7 just like yours. Holidays, down days, training days, family days, whatever, we still work just like other neccessary 24/7 ops and first repsonders. We get it, the AF wouldn't work without you. But you wouldn't work without us, and none of us would work without pilots, or firedawgs, or finance, or personnel, or fuels, or who the hell ever. You are a link in a chain my friend. Regardless of the self perceived size of your link, it makes no difference.



I agree the PT program could run smoother. I agree that changes need to be implemented. But your PT score is yours and yours alone.

This is the military. Whether some of you want to admit it or not, you are part of the Armed Forces. When it's convinient for you, you want troops to have discipline, and follow your orders or else. You want to be respected as a member of the military. But then you want to whine about why you shouldn't have to be subject to the standards like everyone else.

It's sad that so many people have nothing but excuses about why they shouldn't have to do something as basic as PT.

I'm not suggesting this be the Army or Marines. Just sayin...

[MaintChief]

I suppose, I always found it funny though how many agencies on base work a straight 8 hour shift, guareented lunch "Hour", no swing or mid shift(by the way-mid shift isnt authorized AFI 21-101) and had days or hours where they were closed for training. Other than Cops I have to chuckle shirt at your comment....I have augmentees for all those jobs.....services...LOL...during an exercise the only thing open is the morgue ! It dosent take a genious to pass out an MRE....lets see augmentees for crew chiefs or weapons load teams....I am tired of the MPF/finance etc group trying to grip to the same level of importance as Maintenance....everytime I cut my own orders,fix my own records, or use one of their web sites.....

I hope you were a better MTI/MTL than a maintainer because your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired...AFI 21-10 has NEVER stated that a midshift is not authorized. And neither did AFR 66-1. I can't swear about AFR 66-5. Midshift is a STANDARD in the MAF and heavy community. The fighter world views mids a little differently but I can assure you that a midshift can be implemented/used and 21-101 doesn't prevent it.

For all of the noners here, the primary mission of an operational Air Force wing that possesses combat coded aircraft is the generation of combat ready aircraft ready to accomplish their wartime mission IAW with the unit DOC statement. If that mission can't be accomplished, you have FAILED. It DOES NOT MATTER IF YOU CAN SCORE A 100 ON YOUR PT TEST. You have failed.

Air Force flightlines on the operational side of the house, especially the MAF, are 24/7 operations, including holidays. 8 hour shifts are a joke/dream. The standard is usually 10-14 hours, depending on job, position, responsibilities. And, by the way, we are no longer manned as "robustly" as we once were...I have fewer people to generate more sorties with older aircraft. And these aircraft break. And for MAF and SOF units, having aircraft available to fill real world operational taskings, not training sorties, is the real, ugly, elephant in the room. When I have a fleet of 10 aircraft, that's right, I said 10, and 3 are in depot, one is in ISO, 3 are deployed, that leaves me 3 aircraft to perform pilot pro, crew currency/pro, and any contingencies that crop up. PT is NOWHERE near the top of my priority list. I'm illustrating an imaginary fleet, but there are units in the Air Force that face this scenario EVERY day. It's easy if I can close the shop for 90 minutes a day three times a week. It's easy if my people only work 8's with an hour lunch. But that's not my world. Some of you need to go to an operational flightline for a week and shadow the 2 and 3 stripers and see what their life is like.

[ART]

I hope you were a better MTI/MTL than a maintainer because your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired...AFI 21-10 has NEVER stated that a midshift is not authorized. And neither did AFR 66-1. I can't swear about AFR 66-5. Midshift is a STANDARD in the MAF and heavy community. The fighter world views mids a little differently but I can assure you that a midshift can be implemented/used and 21-101 doesn't prevent it.

For all of the noners here, the primary mission of an operational Air Force wing that possesses combat coded aircraft is the generation of combat ready aircraft ready to accomplish their wartime mission IAW with the unit DOC statement. If that mission can't be accomplished, you have FAILED. It DOES NOT MATTER IF YOU CAN SCORE A 100 ON YOUR PT TEST. You have failed.

Air Force flightlines on the operational side of the house, especially the MAF, are 24/7 operations, including holidays. 8 hour shifts are a joke/dream. The standard is usually 10-14 hours, depending on job, position, responsibilities. And, by the way, we are no longer manned as "robustly" as we once were...I have fewer people to generate more sorties with older aircraft. And these aircraft break. And for MAF and SOF units, having aircraft available to fill real world operational taskings, not training sorties, is the real, ugly, elephant in the room. When I have a fleet of 10 aircraft, that's right, I said 10, and 3 are in depot, one is in ISO, 3 are deployed, that leaves me 3 aircraft to perform pilot pro, crew currency/pro, and any contingencies that crop up. PT is NOWHERE near the top of my priority list. I'm illustrating an imaginary fleet, but there are units in the Air Force that face this scenario EVERY day. It's easy if I can close the shop for 90 minutes a day three times a week. It's easy if my people only work 8's with an hour lunch. But that's not my world. Some of you need to go to an operational flightline for a week and shadow the 2 and 3 stripers and see what their life is like.



Outstanding post.:thumbup:

[MaintChief]

Oh, and for the record, it was an Airman that came in 2nd, I believe, in his weight class in the Army MMA/Combatives tourny...and it was an Airman, or was it Airmen, that beat the Marine Corps team in the Marine Corps Marathon. And finally, based on the stats I just pulled up, as of Oct 08, only 1.2 % of active duty Airmen were in the marginal/poor fitness categories. That's 3,726 Airmen out of 300,803. You can look up the stats on the Air Force fitness portal. Now, can we worry about something that is a REAL problem instead of a perceived problem based on subjective opinions and appearance?

[Rastaman]

That's the way of the Air Force, fixing things that ain't broke

True that!

So...when we had the bike test that kicked everyone's butt...that was a problem.

Now we have the new and improved PT test that 97% of us can kick butt on...this is now a problem.

LOL!!! :)

[ringjamesa]

Oh, and for the record, it was an Airman that came in 2nd, I believe, in his weight class in the Army MMA/Combatives tourny...and it was an Airman, or was it Airmen, that beat the Marine Corps team in the Marine Corps Marathon. And finally, based on the stats I just pulled up, as of Oct 08, only 1.2 % of active duty Airmen were in the marginal/poor fitness categories. That's 3,726 Airmen out of 300,803. You can look up the stats on the Air Force fitness portal. Now, can we worry about something that is a REAL problem instead of a perceived problem based on subjective opinions and appearance?

Good post Chief except for that last line. I do think appearance matters. Especially when you have a 1.4 ton SSgt about to blow the buttons off his/her uniform and kill someone.

[MaintChief]

Good post Chief except for that last line. I do think appearance matters. Especially when you have a 1.4 ton SSgt about to blow the buttons off his/her uniform and kill someone.

I also think that appearance matters but we're going overboard...supervisors and Commanders have ALWAYS had the tools at their disposal to correct/fix a problem Airman. If an Airman is out of standards then it starts with the immediate supervisor. And lets not forget the multiple layers of supervision and the 1st Sgt and the Commander. If you see a grossly overweight Airmen how do you know that action has not already been taken? Or if they are on the FIT program. Stop making assumptions. Chances are that if the Airmen is not progressing adequately they will soon be out the door.

Are any of you familiar with the term due process? As long as the supervisors do their job, meaning adequately and correctly documenting PT failures and corrective actions, it is relatively easy to show an Airman the door. But we have supervisors who DON"T know their jobs. Lets put the responsibility where it lies...yes, on the feet of the out-of-standard Airmen, but also on their supervision.

[ringjamesa]

I also think that appearance matters but we're going overboard...supervisors and Commanders have ALWAYS had the tools at their disposal to correct/fix a problem Airman. If an Airman is out of standards then it starts with the immediate supervisor. And lets not forget the multiple layers of supervision and the 1st Sgt and the Commander. If you see a grossly overweight Airmen how do you know that action has not already been taken? Or if they are on the FIT program. Stop making assumptions. Chances are that if the Airmen is not progressing adequately they will soon be out the door.

Are any of you familiar with the term due process? As long as the supervisors do their job, meaning adequately and correctly documenting PT failures and corrective actions, it is relatively easy to show an Airman the door. But we have supervisors who DON"T know their jobs. Lets put the responsibility where it lies...yes, on the feet of the out-of-standard Airmen, but also on their supervision.

Chief, you are correct. The processes have always been in place. However, the guidance is open to interpretation "professional appearance." Apparently, some supervisors and commanders consider pie-eating to be a profession. About 8/9 years ago, I had the displeasure of having a SSgt for my supervisor that didn't know his job and was seriously overweight (when he wore BDUs, the fabric that covers the buttons would pull apart). He was a crappy supervisor and he is still around. The one good thing about this program is that it eliminates the judgement call from the process. Don't get me wrong, I HATE the PT program and thiink it has some serious flaws but I think it is better than relying on commanders and supervisors to make judgement calls when often, they are the ones who need to slim down some.

[CMSBROWN]

We do PT we run formation running, sing cadence. We play tackle football in Mopp 4. You get hurt....shake it off....we play basketball in IBA and ACH.....again...you get hurt shake it off....there is no time for minor injuries in combat. You can pass the PT test...good for you but if you look like a TUBBY TUBBY...well you get your image right our you are out the door.

And thats how we roll!:cool:

You establish espirit de corps in your organization by having everyone do PT together...Plain and simple.

[Shrike]

Oh, and for the record, it was an Airman that came in 2nd, I believe, in his weight class in the Army MMA/Combatives tourny...and it was an Airman, or was it Airmen, that beat the Marine Corps team in the Marine Corps Marathon. And finally, based on the stats I just pulled up, as of Oct 08, only 1.2 % of active duty Airmen were in the marginal/poor fitness categories. That's 3,726 Airmen out of 300,803. You can look up the stats on the Air Force fitness portal. Now, can we worry about something that is a REAL problem instead of a perceived problem based on subjective opinions and appearance?

Now why do you have to go injecting facts and figures into a subjective debate where people are arguing based on emotion?

;)

We have people scrambling to find knee-jerk solutions to grossly overstated problems. Goverment inaction, I mean in action!

[Venus]

Same, typical bullshit responses to the responses.

The Army and the Marines have completely different missions than us. For the most part, what are soldiers and marines doing while not deployed? Training...constantly. And PT is part of that constant training for them. You want to do PT all the time? Go be a grunt. You want to dismiss legitimate complaints about an inequitable program that was half-assedly implemented? Take control - don't read them.


It always amazes me that the lack of people not seeing the big picture is. For all of you who are in the USAF but don't even know where the flightline is what they do out there. Med grp, MPF, Finance etc your only reason for existing is to support the warfighter which means the mx troop ,aircrew or spec op guy getting on a airplane going into harms way. It always amazed me when I had to get a fund site for last minute orders how put out they felt when you asked a low quater high heeled shoe wearer to do their damn job and how much self restraint you needed not to choke the living shit out of them. They even act that way at a deployed FOB.
If you can close up your shop and do PT I'm happy for you, but the the operational part of the USAF doesn't give a damn about your going away luncheons if it gets in the way of getting airplanes airborne. I speculate without even looking that during the latest Wing markdowns during ORI's I would guarantee you it wasn't a mx sq that tubed it for a failing wing. MX sq's don't do PT get over it, we have other important things to do.

[Shrike]

It always amazes me that the lack of people not seeing the big picture is. For all of you who are in the USAF but don't even know where the flightline is what they do out there. Med grp, MPF, Finance etc your only reason for existing is to support the warfighter which means the mx troop ,aircrew or spec op guy getting on a airplane going into harms way. It always amazed me when I had to get a fund site for last minute orders how put out they felt when you asked a low quater high heeled shoe wearer to do their damn job and how much self restraint you needed not to choke the living shit out of them. They even act that way at a deployed FOB.
If you can close up your shop and do PT I'm happy for you, but the the operational part of the USAF doesn't give a damn about your going away luncheons if it gets in the way of getting airplanes airborne. I speculate without even looking that during the latest Wing markdowns during ORI's I would guarantee you it wasn't a mx sq that tubed it for a failing wing. MX sq's don't do PT get over it, we have other important things to do.

I'm not sure why you posted that in response to what I said, as I'm on your side!

[CMSBROWN]

I'm not sure why you posted that in response to what I said, as I'm on your side!

DITTO! :D :D

[Venus]

I'm not sure why you posted that in response to what I said, as I'm on your side!

Just reaffirming your stance should have replyed to one of those MPF'rs who think we should bend toward their version of the USAF and only do operations between 0800 and 1600 and a F-16 to B-52 should be as easy to maintain as their sections GOV or their own POV. Sorry if you got the wrong ideal from me.

[SinisterK9]

Absolutely correct. The only people who work outside normal duty hours are Aircraft Maintenance professionals.

Everyone else needs to recognize and kneel before the altar.

And if you are on a nuke base like FE Warren, that has no flightline, you ought to go lay down in traffic because you are worthless. Better yet, burn up some of your leave, and make a pilgrimage to a base with a flightline. Then, lay your blanket down facing the nearest runway, and say three Hail Mary's to the God of all things flying.

*Disclaimer* While I am obviously being facetious with my post, some of you need to bring your heads back down out of the clouds. The whole "You are on my team, I am not on yours" mentality is getting a bit ridiculous.

[CrustySMSgt]

Oh, and for the record, it was an Airman that came in 2nd, I believe, in his weight class in the Army MMA/Combatives tourny...and it was an Airman, or was it Airmen, that beat the Marine Corps team in the Marine Corps Marathon. And finally, based on the stats I just pulled up, as of Oct 08, only 1.2 % of active duty Airmen were in the marginal/poor fitness categories. That's 3,726 Airmen out of 300,803. You can look up the stats on the Air Force fitness portal. Now, can we worry about something that is a REAL problem instead of a perceived problem based on subjective opinions and appearance?

Chief,

As much as I'd love to believe only 1.2% are truly poor (there is no marginal) fit, we all know testing is non-standard and uncontrolled. Through improper training, or intentional lack of integrity, I am absolutely that number is WAY short!

[MaintChief]

Absolutely correct. The only people who work outside normal duty hours are Aircraft Maintenance professionals.

Everyone else needs to recognize and kneel before the altar.

And if you are on a nuke base like FE Warren, that has no flightline, you ought to go lay down in traffic because you are worthless. Better yet, burn up some of your leave, and make a pilgrimage to a base with a flightline. Then, lay your blanket down facing the nearest runway, and say three Hail Mary's to the God of all things flying.

*Disclaimer* While I am obviously being facetious with my post, some of you need to bring your heads back down out of the clouds. The whole "You are on my team, I am not on yours" mentality is getting a bit ridiculous.

We are all on the same team, we just don't have the same priorities and we all suffer from a severe lack of leadership from above that does not recognize deep institutional and cultural differences within the USAF.

You can NOT impose a "solution" to a problem (unit PT) that does not recognize and acknowledge the mission constraints of over 50% of the USAF. By shear numbers the aircraft maintenance career fields are the majority of USAF enlisted strength as a single skills group. Therefore we should have some input into something that will and does affect each one of us. I realize fully that Security Forces also work 24/7. There are other career fields outside of aircraft maintenance and Security Forces that do the same. But we constitute the largest block. If a solution can be found that lets an AMU meet it's mission responsibilities while allowing ALL of its personnel to do PT, I am all for it. Until that happens, I will push back without apology.

[The Opinionated One]

My two cents - lets see, the Air Force has forgone any type of annual physical (PHA's I have found are more than a block filler) to find out if the member is healthy to perform in combat. The Air Force has a "PT program that is ran by usually some young kid that could do the same stuff I could when I came in 24 years ago, and consists of some jumping jacks a few push-ups and Ultimate Frisbee. We don't teach weapons training or provide weapons to most going into combat, we only teach fliers survival skills, and if it weren't for Goggle Maps most would get lost once they left the base. The AF Warrior physical program is a farce. Why don't they require swimming, the Navy probably would find that more useful than running 1.5 miles?

The fact that the AF continues with a "Warrior" mentality is a crock for the few who failed to measure up to the Marine and Army entry requirements to latch onto. We are operators who spend a significant amout of time behind a desk or turning wrenches. We are not trained on firearms because aren't issued firearms in combat. Now mind you there are skilled warriors in the AF, PJs and other Operators, and you know what they have a robust physical training program comensorate with thier job responsiblities. There are also, the ILO selectees who are doing another services mission, and receive specialized training (or are supposed too) before deploying.

Before I get slammed for calling the AF PT program a farce, when was the last time in your career that you had to run 1.5 miles to escape harm or engage in combat?

[MaintChief]

Chief,

As much as I'd love to believe only 1.2% are truly poor (there is no marginal) fit, we all know testing is non-standard and uncontrolled. Through improper training, or intentional lack of integrity, I am absolutely that number is WAY short!


Congratulations on making CMSgt by the way!

The numbers quoted are from USAF data and it still lists the marginal category.

The reason that the data is questionable is because of the waist measurement. Do away with the measurement, set a clear standard that is age/sex appropriate for the run and strength components, and make it pass or fail. For example, a 46 y/o male should be able to run 1.5 miles in 12:15 and do 40 pushups and 45 situps in one minute. I don't care what the number is but set a standard that a reasonably fit 46 y/o should be able to meet. You could set the standard as what the 85 percentile of all 46 y/o males taking the PT test in the last 2 years have scored. I don't care. We (the USAF) have taken a simple thing and once again made it hard.

[SinisterK9]

We are all on the same team, we just don't have the same priorities and we all suffer from a severe lack of leadership from above that does not recognize deep institutional and cultural differences within the USAF.

You can NOT impose a "solution" to a problem (unit PT) that does not recognize and acknowledge the mission constraints of over 50% of the USAF. By shear numbers the aircraft maintenance career fields are the majority of USAF enlisted strength as a single skills group. Therefore we should have some input into something that will and does affect each one of us. I realize fully that Security Forces also work 24/7. There are other career fields outside of aircraft maintenance and Security Forces that do the same. But we constitute the largest block. If a solution can be found that lets an AMU meet it's mission responsibilities while allowing ALL of its personnel to do PT, I am all for it. Until that happens, I will push back without apology.


I'm truly not knocking what you do. Nor am I looking for any kind of recognition for my job either. I just think discounting PT all together is ridiculous. While your different career fields may add up to a larger over all career field of sorts, we have the largest AFSC in the AF. 23K+ active duty. Shouldn't we get some sort of say the matter as well? I'm not saying a blanket policy should rule the day? I recognize that shift workers should get a reasonably different schedule verus your typical 9-5ers. I'm just saying, I am constantly required to conduct formal PT after 14 hour shifts. They show us no mercy except under special circumstances. I think there is a happy or semi-happy medium in there that can be reached by both sides. Anyone that suggests they can never find any time for PT period is full of shit. However, modified PT schedules for those who are getting the mission done, are certainly understandable.

That said, thanks for what what you do.

[Bleedblue]

If you don't like it then quit...and it sounds like you already have. Bitching and complaining and not doing something about the problem is in a sense quitting Don't go complaining when you don't get your firewall 5 or your fresh medal for PCS because you have shut down and decided to not do your part and work out. The Air Force has turned into a corporate run whinning bunch of babies. Stop with the excuses and make it happen. If your the boss, it is your job to change your shop schedule to allow your folks the time to PT. If you can't do that, then maybe you shouldn't be the boss. If your going to hold the AFI up and preach it to the end all then change the schedule. Maybe you need to come in early by 2hrs to get your PT in. BOTTOM LINE. FIND THE TIME IN YOUR DAY TO GET IT DONE.......oh unless you need your beauty sleep and a full 8 hrs. I can't speak for all Airman, but the people mostly complaining usually are those that can't pass the bloody test. It's each and everyones duty to find time to work out. Run or bike to work. Hmmmmmmm what a fresh idea. Oh wait, that won't work, your next excuse will be, how am I suppose to get home.....I can't tell you how to run your life or what your priorities are, thats up to you, but this fit to fight and fitness as a whole is here to stay so quit the crying and embrace it. The sooner you do, your airman and the USAF will be alot better off. The more you fight it, the tougher it will be.
Your a typical for PAR thinker the air force loves, I bet you'll tell me that your people love to work for you too. Look bubba, the policy is PT on duty time, don't expect somebody on 12's to be motivated to go workout 3 days a week....stop drinking the Kool-aid.....damn, yeah I am going to run 10 miles from downtown to work..you are in a special little world arn't you ?

[Bleedblue]

OK, I'm known for being a LITTLE BIT of a smart-ass and ranter on this board...;)

But hey, I just notice a pattern; just about EVERY item or edict that the AF comes out with, like uniforms, shifts, deployments, sortie rates, or PT stuff, etc, GUESS WHO ALWAYS BITCHES and WHINES FIRST AND THE MOST??

It ain't the cops. Or the nurses. Or the intel folks.

Could it be....

MAINTENANCE?????? :D
because we get shit on the most....you work outside in the rain,snow and wind with no cold weather gear because we cant afford it....but I cruise past MPF and people are outside smoking with Parkas on...

[Bleedblue]

Same, typical bullshit responses to the responses.

The Army and the Marines have completely different missions than us. For the most part, what are soldiers and marines doing while not deployed? Training...constantly. And PT is part of that constant training for them. You want to do PT all the time? Go be a grunt. You want to dismiss legitimate complaints about an inequitable program that was half-assedly implemented? Take control - don't read them.
I would love to train and have time to do my job....instaed...I have to push paper around because this is how the Air Force is run, and most accept it as a good way of doing bussiness. Do we really think the EPR system is good ? No...it kills time....I could keep going with stupid time wasters...Like sere 100....wow where do I get my SERE tab ??? its all crap...no I won't quit or get out, thats too easy.

[Bleedblue]

First of all, SPs are run like the Army since they act like the Army about 90 percent of the time, all Personelist get everything that they want, a lunch time, PT formation, training days every month, office closures for official functions, on not to mention that they are only open from 830-1500 every single day (except Fridays when they close at 1300 for PT!!!!).

Medical does quite a bit, but they still get all the niceties of an office job, and they get PT time on top of that

Maintenance has the right to complain because without us the mission would FAIL!!! We split up into a maintenance side and an Ops side so that the Maintanence commander could tell Ops to take a hike when current manning couldn't support the flying schedule, but alas Ops always wins because the Wing Commander is always on their side since they do need their hours and training.

So while we bust our butts 24/7 to support the mission, there is no one on base to support us 24/7. We are always met by closed signs, rude people, and referrals to websites so that the guy behind the desk doesn't have to stop surfing the web and get off his butt.

You probably don't realize what maintenance actually does so I'll enlighten you, we maintain all the aircraft to ensure safety for the pilot and mission capability, this includes inspections, forms, IMDS, records checks, phase inspections, aircraft washes & lubes, hotpits, engines changes, heavy maintenance to include hydraulic / fuel / pneumatic / flight controls / weapons systems / avionic systems / electrical and environmental / FOD walks/ End of Runway inspections/ and on top of all that we still have to maintain many of the programs you have to maintain plus ones dictated by AFI 21-101. We support the flying schedule during surges, night flying, exercises, and deployments. Oh and lets not forget the occasional incentive flight that is given to some MPFer that hasn't even been on station more than a year.

People tend to forget that if it wasn't for maintenance people, the Air Force would cease to exist and you guys would all be a part of the Army or Marines. This isn't about people not wanting to do the fitness requirements, this is about people not having the means to do it. Not every base out there has a 24 hour Gym, an we can't just shut down everything to go run around a track like everyone else. Maybe if all areas on base were open 24 hours like us, and had to work non stop during those 24 hours, then maybe our point of view wouldn't get lost in the shuffle.
Damn straight !
If i was CMSAF I would demand that all active duty on base except SF/Fire work off of the flying schedule.
Were night flying....guess what shot clinic.....your working nights
And......
Nobody could leave work untill they cleared it with Lead pro super !!!!!!

[Bleedblue]

And here we go again. Yes the Army and Marines have a different specific mission, but we are all part of the Armed Forces and all share a common goal. Further, we all are subject to the UCMJ and follow the orders and intents of those appointed over us.
The powers that be want PT. But excuses is all you seem to get from half the troops out there. It's not hard. These are not olympic standards. Meet them or don't. If you don't meet them, then good luck blaming someone else for your referral EPR.

omertalifestyle,

Don't turn this into a pissing contest. This has nothing to do with that. Yes, I respect the fact you work. My career field is 24/7 just like yours. Holidays, down days, training days, family days, whatever, we still work just like other neccessary 24/7 ops and first repsonders. We get it, the AF wouldn't work without you. But you wouldn't work without us, and none of us would work without pilots, or firedawgs, or finance, or personnel, or fuels, or who the hell ever. You are a link in a chain my friend. Regardless of the self perceived size of your link, it makes no difference.



I agree the PT program could run smoother. I agree that changes need to be implemented. But your PT score is yours and yours alone.

This is the military. Whether some of you want to admit it or not, you are part of the Armed Forces. When it's convinient for you, you want troops to have discipline, and follow your orders or else. You want to be respected as a member of the military. But then you want to whine about why you shouldn't have to be subject to the standards like everyone else.

It's sad that so many people have nothing but excuses about why they shouldn't have to do something as basic as PT.

I'm not suggesting this be the Army or Marines. Just sayin...
Bullshit....
Not everyone has the same size link....
That is just "feel Good" talk
most non-critical jobs are being reduced to a web site or other self-service action, or better yet contracted out. You know why aircraft maintenace won't be contracted out?
Because civilians wouldnt stand to be shit on over and over, not to mention the Fed Gov couldnt afford to pay them.

[Bleedblue]

I hope you were a better MTI/MTL than a maintainer because your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired...AFI 21-10 has NEVER stated that a midshift is not authorized. And neither did AFR 66-1. I can't swear about AFR 66-5. Midshift is a STANDARD in the MAF and heavy community. The fighter world views mids a little differently but I can assure you that a midshift can be implemented/used and 21-101 doesn't prevent it.

For all of the noners here, the primary mission of an operational Air Force wing that possesses combat coded aircraft is the generation of combat ready aircraft ready to accomplish their wartime mission IAW with the unit DOC statement. If that mission can't be accomplished, you have FAILED. It DOES NOT MATTER IF YOU CAN SCORE A 100 ON YOUR PT TEST. You have failed.

Air Force flightlines on the operational side of the house, especially the MAF, are 24/7 operations, including holidays. 8 hour shifts are a joke/dream. The standard is usually 10-14 hours, depending on job, position, responsibilities. And, by the way, we are no longer manned as "robustly" as we once were...I have fewer people to generate more sorties with older aircraft. And these aircraft break. And for MAF and SOF units, having aircraft available to fill real world operational taskings, not training sorties, is the real, ugly, elephant in the room. When I have a fleet of 10 aircraft, that's right, I said 10, and 3 are in depot, one is in ISO, 3 are deployed, that leaves me 3 aircraft to perform pilot pro, crew currency/pro, and any contingencies that crop up. PT is NOWHERE near the top of my priority list. I'm illustrating an imaginary fleet, but there are units in the Air Force that face this scenario EVERY day. It's easy if I can close the shop for 90 minutes a day three times a week. It's easy if my people only work 8's with an hour lunch. But that's not my world. Some of you need to go to an operational flightline for a week and shadow the 2 and 3 stripers and see what their life is like.
Yadaa-Yadda
Your probably more worried about somebody wearing their reflective belt thru the parking lot, so you dont have to answer an QA fail then somebody fitness and health. Your the problem with the Air force not changing...please retire

[MaintChief]

Yadaa-Yadda
Your probably more worried about somebody wearing their reflective belt thru the parking lot, so you dont have to answer an QA fail then somebody fitness and health. Your the problem with the Air force not changing...please retire

Ok, I'll play your little game. Yes, I am worried about people wearing their reflective belts because I've seen too many dumbasses hit non-moving plainly marked objects at night. And I do care about my troops fitness and health, that's why I bitch at them constantly about PT, eating healthy, moderate drinking, etc. If it were not for people like me, who actually have a clue, people like you would be running loose in my AF and we'd really be screwed.

[Bleedblue]

I hope you were a better MTI/MTL than a maintainer because your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired...AFI 21-10 has NEVER stated that a midshift is not authorized. And neither did AFR 66-1. I can't swear about AFR 66-5. Midshift is a STANDARD in the MAF and heavy community. The fighter world views mids a little differently but I can assure you that a midshift can be implemented/used and 21-101 doesn't prevent it.

For all of the noners here, the primary mission of an operational Air Force wing that possesses combat coded aircraft is the generation of combat ready aircraft ready to accomplish their wartime mission IAW with the unit DOC statement. If that mission can't be accomplished, you have FAILED. It DOES NOT MATTER IF YOU CAN SCORE A 100 ON YOUR PT TEST. You have failed.

Air Force flightlines on the operational side of the house, especially the MAF, are 24/7 operations, including holidays. 8 hour shifts are a joke/dream. The standard is usually 10-14 hours, depending on job, position, responsibilities. And, by the way, we are no longer manned as "robustly" as we once were...I have fewer people to generate more sorties with older aircraft. And these aircraft break. And for MAF and SOF units, having aircraft available to fill real world operational taskings, not training sorties, is the real, ugly, elephant in the room. When I have a fleet of 10 aircraft, that's right, I said 10, and 3 are in depot, one is in ISO, 3 are deployed, that leaves me 3 aircraft to perform pilot pro, crew currency/pro, and any contingencies that crop up. PT is NOWHERE near the top of my priority list. I'm illustrating an imaginary fleet, but there are units in the Air Force that face this scenario EVERY day. It's easy if I can close the shop for 90 minutes a day three times a week. It's easy if my people only work 8's with an hour lunch. But that's not my world. Some of you need to go to an operational flightline for a week and shadow the 2 and 3 stripers and see what their life is like.
I don't work heavies....and yes I found where it states Mid-shift is not authorized. I work in a completyly different world from heavies, so don't even go there. Guess it depends on which 21-101 your looking at , not to mention the SUP for the base your at. If you don't know the Fighter world, then don't be so quick to thick you do. You sound like a typical production staffer. Thats why the flight line is the way it is, because people like you make it to SNCO status and keep the big wheels turning while you throw your own people under the gears, hoping you make senior or chief. You culdnt have posted a better response. By the way...you could have never cut it in the MTI world...you can't think out of the box

[MaintChief]

I don't work heavies....and yes I found where it states Mid-shift is not authorized. I work in a completyly different world from heavies, so don't even go there. Guess it depends on which 21-101 your looking at , not to mention the SUP for the base your at. If you don't know the Fighter world, then don't be so quick to thick you do. You sound like a typical production staffer. Thats why the flight line is the way it is, because people like you make it to SNCO status and keep the big wheels turning while you throw your own people under the gears, hoping you make senior or chief. You culdnt have posted a better response. By the way...you could have never cut it in the MTI world...you can't think out of the box

Produce your copy of 21-101. The basic document that ALL MAJCOMS must adhere to does not prohibit midshift. The ACC Supp to 21-101 does not prohibit midshift. Niether does AMC or AFSOC. Now, local supps are a different matter, but the basic document does not.

And I currently work fighters...so you are wrong, again.

I've been an NCO (buck Sgt) since 1985. I've been a SNCO since 1998 (so you do the math and figure out the number of stripes on my sleeves). I've worked more types of aircraft than you: ISR, SOF, bombers, tankers, helos, in multiple commands, and have done extremely well in all assignments. I guess that establishes who knows what they are talking about. As for thinking out of the box...give me a break You have no frigging clue of who I am or what I've been involved in. You're just another loudmouthed know-it-all who can't think through or analyze a problem and rely on opinion, conjecture, and anecdotical evidence to try to make your point. Go play with the basic trainees and when you grow up and learn how to think then maybe you can join the big boys table.

[Bleedblue]

Produce your copy of 21-101. The basic document that ALL MAJCOMS must adhere to does not prohibit midshift. The ACC Supp to 21-101 does not prohibit midshift. Niether does AMC or AFSOC. Now, local supps are a different matter, but the basic document does not.

And I currently work fighters...so you are wrong, again.

I've been an NCO (buck Sgt) since 1985. I've been a SNCO since 1998 (so you do the math and figure out the number of stripes on my sleeves). I've worked more types of aircraft than you: ISR, SOF, bombers, tankers, helos, in multiple commands, and have done extremely well in all assignments. I guess that establishes who knows what they are talking about. As for thinking out of the box...give me a break You have no frigging clue of who I am or what I've been involved in. You're just another loudmouthed know-it-all who can't think through or analyze a problem and rely on opinion, conjecture, and anecdotical evidence to try to make your point. Go play with the basic trainees and when you grow up and learn how to think then maybe you can join the big boys table.
You have been thinking the same way for 20 plus years, just because you have been in a long time dosent mean your part of the solution. Have you made the Air Force better than you found it ? or have you just played the game and continued the insanity so you could see three top rockers on you sleeve. I don't a Chief woth his pay would respond to a junior NCO with that great "mentorship" youve stated above.
I hope you retire before I have the displeasure of working in you 1980's mentality AMU.

[MaintChief]

You have been thinking the same way for 20 plus years, just because you have been in a long time dosent mean your part of the solution. Have you made the Air Force better than you found it ? or have you just played the game and continued the insanity so you could see three top rockers on you sleeve. I don't a Chief woth his pay would respond to a junior NCO with that great "mentorship" youve stated above.
I hope you retire before I have the displeasure of working in you 1980's mentality AMU.

I'm not part of the new "touchy-feely" Air Force...sometimes a swift kick in the ass will get results better than "mentoring". Don't like it when you are treated as you've treated others in your postings, huh? Don't like that feeling, huh? My problem is that I actually give a shit. And I made my bones the hard way, through honest work. I'm not a politician. And my units have all excelled. My troops will vouch for that I am an asshole, but I'm their consistent asshole and that I look out for them. What you see on Monday is what you see on Friday. Just because I don't wipe their noses and pat their little heads when they are wrong doesn't make me incorrect.

And by the way, in the 1980's we didn't fly nukes by accident, we didn't fail NSI's wholesale, we didn't lose sight of what our primary mission was and who we are as a Service. I take that slam as a compliment!

[Bleedblue]

Ok, I'll play your little game. Yes, I am worried about people wearing their reflective belts because I've seen too many dumbasses hit non-moving plainly marked objects at night. And I do care about my troops fitness and health, that's why I bitch at them constantly about PT, eating healthy, moderate drinking, etc. If it were not for people like me, who actually have a clue, people like you would be running loose in my AF and we'd really be screwed.
Yeah....I am running loose in the Air Force. lets talk with some common sense. We all know that maintainers eat their own. We are to blame for constanly making stupid sacrafices to get the job done, while we paint a pretty picture for leadership to see. I swear IG teams must think every office smells like fresh paint and the dumpsters are full of all the stuff "were not authorized". Its the SNCO's in Maintenance that get caught between a rock and a hard place, because they have their career to think about. If I am not on the line, do I really need my belt to walk from the AMU to my Car....the Air Force sweets the wrong stuff.

[Bleedblue]

Well, we have one thing in common, were both assholes. I don't fit in anywhere because I expect people to do their jobs and have accountability for their actions or lack ther of. I went to be an MTI because I thought it must be where the problem starts...I was wrong...sure BMT has some problems but they do a good job all things considered. Tech school is a joke, so is letting a first termer become an NCO. I came in in 1991...got out for a couple, then came back in because theeir is more oppurtunity. I see every year more and more break down of the enlisted force structure. My point is as Maintainers is that we screw our own people at the expense of what ? A training sortie ? Work on a jet 14 hours and its not on the flying schedule at all ?
And somebody has the nerve to tell me we don't chase stats. We can get the job done and still take care of people. If the Flight line has to remain the same, ok...give me more money or something to make up for all the bullshit...when the yonger guys or guys that are coming up on 8 or 10 years want to get out its because they are sick of sucking it up while others are getting better treatment for the same pay. I tell them cross train out of maintenance. They want to serve, they are just tired of the same old same.

[BRUWIN]

I hope you retire before I have the displeasure of working in you 1980's mentality AMU.

Seems to me it's the 1980s mentality that's been lacking out there on the flight line these days. I did 16 years out there and left it all in 1998 when I saw how things were going. The problems had little to do with SNCOs. I am glad I'm doing something different now....I couldn't picture having to launch aircraft and depend on some whiney ass Airman like yourself to help do it.

[MaintChief]

Yeah....I am running loose in the Air Force. lets talk with some common sense. We all know that maintainers eat their own. We are to blame for constanly making stupid sacrafices to get the job done, while we paint a pretty picture for leadership to see. I swear IG teams must think every office smells like fresh paint and the dumpsters are full of all the stuff "were not authorized". Its the SNCO's in Maintenance that get caught between a rock and a hard place, because they have their career to think about. If I am not on the line, do I really need my belt to walk from the AMU to my Car....the Air Force sweets the wrong stuff.

Senior leadership at the General officer level have a clear picture of what is going on in maintenance. I'm not talking the Wing commander, I'm talking MAJCOM and HQ/AF. I did a SPO/depot tour and we reported Health of the Fleet...they know how bad it is. They sweat the lack of manpower, increased ops tempo, increased costs, etc.

As for SNCO's and careers...any SNCO that lets his/her "career progression" dictate the right thing to do doesn't deserve the stripes. Making it to MSgt is easy...SMSgt and CMSgt are gravy after MSgt. You can tell a politician a mile away and so can their bosses. Contrary to popular belief the system does work. Sometimes the wrong people do get promoted but by and large it works. Like I tell my guys/girls, I'll sweat the heat from above, you just worry about the task at hand.

[Bleedblue]

Seems to me it's the 1980s mentality that's been lacking out there on the flight line these days. I did 16 years out there and left it all in 1998 when I saw how things were going. The problems had little to do with SNCOs. I am glad I'm doing something different now....I couldn't picture having to launch aircraft and depend on some whiney ass Airman like yourself to help do it.
Yeah...I am I whiney ass airman.
at least I am not a quitter.....

[BRUWIN]

Yeah...I am I whiney ass airman.
at least I am not a quitter.....


Force retrained....but I went away without a fight.

[Bleedblue]

Force retrained....but I went away without a fight.
ok.....but you get the wrong impression of me. I fight for my guys as a section chief. I wish more would.
Whats the draw to this career feild if you get the same pay as some noner ?
and...we all know we get shit on with down/family/training etc days....never have any good wet/cold weather gear...I remember when I first came in , I got two carts full of gear...this year I got 2 pair of black wool socks to wear with my ABU's and one pair of thermals(also black)...I guess I will be a whiner till I hit retirement.

[BRUWIN]

[QUOTE=Bleedblue;157754Whats the draw to this career feild if you get the same pay as some noner ?
.[/QUOTE]

Well there were some advantages to being a maintenance troop but I don't no if they still exist. I can tell you one thing...the enlisted pretty much ran things out there. Disregarding the aircrews, the only guy that had to deal with officers when it came to maintenance issues was the pro super. I hope it's still that way. It is the one drawback to my new career field. Not that I hate officers...but sometimes they have a hard time delegating.

[Bleedblue]

Well there were some advantages to being a maintenance troop but I don't no if they still exist. I can tell you one thing...the enlisted pretty much ran things out there. Disregarding the aircrews, the only guy that had to deal with officers when it came to maintenance issues was the pro super. I hope it's still that way. It is the one drawback to my new career field. Not that I hate officers...but sometimes they have a hard time delegating.
we bend over for ops everyday.
I say bring back the DCM
I have little use for officers, most act like jerks, and are way overpaid to be a meeting whore.
I think 50% of our officers should be prior enlisted the other half from the Academy.

[BRUWIN]

we bend over for ops everyday.
I say bring back the DCM
I have little use for officers, most act like jerks, and are way overpaid to be a meeting whore.
I think 50% of our officers should be prior enlisted the other half from the Academy.

Be careful what you wish for. The second worst officer I ever worked for was prior enlisted. The only reason he wasn't number one was because my #1 had more rank (O-4) and therefore more ability to make my life even more miserable.

I enjoyed the officers I worked for on the line for the most part. They had little knowledge about actual wrench turning so they had to trust you. I was a pro super when I left maintenance and it was very easy to lose that trust so you definately had to have some integrity. Some days it was like walking a tightrope out there. The T.O.s weren't always so clear cut and it would come down to just doing the right thing. There are days i miss it for sure...especially the decision making. You got two stripers out there that are in the position to see something that can ground thier jet causing them to work the weekend, or look the other way and let it fly, all the while just hoping for the best. Integrity is the key issue out there.

[Bleedblue]

Be careful what you wish for. The second worst officer I ever worked for was prior enlisted. The only reason he wasn't number one was because my #1 had more rank (O-4) and therefore more ability to make my life even more miserable.

I enjoyed the officers I worked for on the line for the most part. They had little knowledge about actual wrench turning so they had to trust you. I was a pro super when I left maintenance and it was very easy to lose that trust so you definately had to have some integrity. Some days it was like walking a tightrope out there. The T.O.s weren't always so clear cut and it would come down to just doing the right thing. There are days i miss it for sure...especially the decision making. You got two stripers out there that are in the position to see something that can ground thier jet causing them to work the weekend, or look the other way and let it fly, all the while just hoping for the best. Integrity is the key issue out there.
it can only go two ways with prior enlisted officers as you said....their either shit hot or shit heads.

[SinisterK9]

Bullshit....
Not everyone has the same size link....
That is just "feel Good" talk
most non-critical jobs are being reduced to a web site or other self-service action, or better yet contracted out. You know why aircraft maintenace won't be contracted out?
Because civilians wouldnt stand to be shit on over and over, not to mention the Fed Gov couldnt afford to pay them.

Funny you mention that. My base trains most of the pilots in the Air Force. We have more flying hours than most bases dream of. Yet we are 100% civilian Aircraft Maintenance. Dyncorps does it all, in all conditions, at all hours (Day, night, weekend, whatever).

[Bleedblue]

Funny you mention that. My base trains most of the pilots in the Air Force. We have more flying hours than most bases dream of. Yet we are 100% civilian Aircraft Maintenance. Dyncorps does it all, in all conditions, at all hours (Day, night, weekend, whatever).
yeah...I know some places have civilian phase etc,
I am talking about an ACC flight line....those guys deploy ?
How is their pay and bennies ?
How are they treated ?
The knife cut a little deeper than what your trying to say.....

[Bleedblue]

yeah...I know some places have civilian phase etc,
I am talking about an ACC flight line....those guys deploy ?
How is their pay and bennies ?
How are they treated ?
The knife cut a little deeper than what your trying to say.....
I also worked with those guys overseas and Gassed up their C-21's because their contract stated the Military guys took care of quick turns....etc etc....its apples and oranges...lets not go there.

[SinisterK9]

yeah...I know some places have civilian phase etc,
I am talking about an ACC flight line....those guys deploy ?
How is their pay and bennies ?
How are they treated ?
The knife cut a little deeper than what your trying to say.....

Of course you were referring to a specific Command, even though thats not remotely what you said. Because if you didn't you would have to admit you were wrong.
If you think the government has trouble paying contractors, then maybe you haven't kept up with current events. Jobs like mine pay approximately 150K per year with Blackwater, Dyncorps, Triple Canopy, or whichever PMC you can get on with. Contractors are running and gunning, pulling security, doing airlifts, doing some service type jobs, and even Red Horse type jobs.
It's not as black and white as you think.

As to your opposition to the "links in the chain". Do I think everyone's job is just as equally important? No I don't. But I do recognize that 99.99999% of the time, the mission doesn't continue without the other 'less important than maintenance' links in the chain. What if you didn't get payed, what if there were no medical personnel to take care of you, what if there were no security forces to protect you, what if there was no firedawgs to take care of fires, spills, explosions etc, nobody in the chow hall, nobody running motor pool and so on and so forth.

We are all replaceable pieces of equipment. If you go down, someone will be put in your place. It's fun to believe we are the most important piece of the puzzle, but it's just not reality.

It takes all of us to keep the machine running whether you like it or not.

[Bleedblue]

Of course you were referring to a specific Command, even though thats not remotely what you said. Because if you didn't you would have to admit you were wrong.
If you think the government has trouble paying contractors, then maybe you haven't kept up with current events. Jobs like mine pay approximately 150K per year with Blackwater, Dyncorps, Triple Canopy, or whichever PMC you can get on with. Contractors are running and gunning, pulling security, doing airlifts, doing some service type jobs, and even Red Horse type jobs.
It's not as black and white as you think.

As to your opposition to the "links in the chain". Do I think everyone's job is just as equally important? No I don't. But I do recognize that 99.99999% of the time, the mission doesn't continue without the other 'less important than maintenance' links in the chain. What if you didn't get payed, what if there were no medical personnel to take care of you, what if there were no security forces to protect you, what if there was no firedawgs to take care of fires, spills, explosions etc, nobody in the chow hall, nobody running motor pool and so on and so forth.

We are all replaceable pieces of equipment. If you go down, someone will be put in your place. It's fun to believe we are the most important piece of the puzzle, but it's just not reality.

It takes all of us to keep the machine running whether you like it or not.
Your have your right to your opinion.
A specific command yup, you got me. Like I said, you ain't gonna contract fighters unless your willing to pay big bucks, as a TSgt I make around 50,000 a year and take my physical check up over the computer...
If you want my job for the pay i get....my hats off to you, If I made 150,000 a year plus bennies, I wouldnt bitch.
A noner is a noner.....in the air force if you don't produce sorties your in my way.

[Cornbreadrules]

LOL. im 'that guy'. 35 yr old, 5'6, 135 lbs, 30' waist, can max both push ups/crunches, AND per the reg can use up to 15 min 48 secs to run the 1.5 and still score a 77. i run it in about 12:30 though for a score of 89.


I'm 44 6'1 190lbs 34" waist max both push up sit ups and do the run in 10:40 and score 89 so who's is the fittest person? Someone please tell me!

[Bleedblue]

I'm 44 6'1 190lbs 34" waist max both push up sit ups and do the run in 10:40 and score 89 so who's is the fittest person? Someone please tell me!
I bet I can beat you in a slapping contest ! LOL

[CrustySMSgt]

Congratulations on making CMSgt by the way!

The numbers quoted are from USAF data and it still lists the marginal category.

The reason that the data is questionable is because of the waist measurement. Do away with the measurement, set a clear standard that is age/sex appropriate for the run and strength components, and make it pass or fail. For example, a 46 y/o male should be able to run 1.5 miles in 12:15 and do 40 pushups and 45 situps in one minute. I don't care what the number is but set a standard that a reasonably fit 46 y/o should be able to meet. You could set the standard as what the 85 percentile of all 46 y/o males taking the PT test in the last 2 years have scored. I don't care. We (the USAF) have taken a simple thing and once again made it hard.


Thanks Chief!

I agree; make fitness capability based, and let the chain of command deal with appearance issues... problem is, no one wants to be the bad guy that has to tell someone they are a fat ass that is embarassing the service... much easier to blame it on "the test" and not have to be personally responsible.

[Bleedblue]

Thanks Chief!

I agree; make fitness capability based, and let the chain of command deal with appearance issues... problem is, no one wants to be the bad guy that has to tell someone they are a fat ass that is embarassing the service... much easier to blame it on "the test" and not have to be personally responsible.
yup....nobody wants to be brought up on charges that "your calling me fat "

[CrustySMSgt]

You have been thinking the same way for 20 plus years, just because you have been in a long time dosent mean your part of the solution. Have you made the Air Force better than you found it ? or have you just played the game and continued the insanity so you could see three top rockers on you sleeve. I don't a Chief woth his pay would respond to a junior NCO with that great "mentorship" youve stated above.
I hope you retire before I have the displeasure of working in you 1980's mentality AMU.

Rockers are the stripes on the bottom of chevrons... this ain't the Army.

Thanks for continuing to post, so we could remove your blow-hard dumb-ass status from "maybe" to "confirmed." THe only thing that is unclear is if you are a victim of the great SSgt give-away who hasn't been able to make the jump to TSgt, or a TSgt who just doens't have what it takes to make SNCO, so everyone above you is clueless and got promoted by stepping on your back, and those below you are just dumbasses waiting in line to pass you up...

[SinisterK9]

Your have your right to your opinion.
A specific command yup, you got me. Like I said, you ain't gonna contract fighters unless your willing to pay big bucks, as a TSgt I make around 50,000 a year and take my physical check up over the computer...
If you want my job for the pay i get....my hats off to you, If I made 150,000 a year plus bennies, I wouldnt bitch.
A noner is a noner.....in the air force if you don't produce sorties your in my way.

Nice catch phrase. Sounds like something that belongs in the bathroom above the urinal.

This is not a volunteer for free organization. If you don't like your job, you can cross train, or go Guard or Reserves and cross train, or go to another service, or get out and so on and so forth.
Either way, I do thank you for your service, and what you do on a daily basis to contribute your part to the AF.

[Bleedblue]

I can't beleive....no yes I can...that somebody like you made Chief. Your attempt to mentor is in Deep suck staus by the way......
Can't we all just be friends....????

[Bleedblue]

good try at guessing though... I missed Master by a little over a point my first time testing....your so much better than me it hurts my little heart,,,,,

[CrustySMSgt]

, as a TSgt

OK, now that mystery is solved too...

[Bleedblue]

I still Love you !

[CrustySMSgt]

I can't beleive....no yes I can...that somebody like you made Chief. Your attempt to mentor is in Deep suck staus by the way......
Can't we all just be friends....????

My attempt at mentoring? Mentoring is a 2-way relationship... I've not tried to mentor you at all... after seeing the respect you have for one of your own Chiefs, I wouldn't waste my time on you... you obviously know everything already, you don't need my help... besides, I'm just a non'er, so I've got nothing to teach you anyway. :rolleyes:

[Bleedblue]

Not so, Not so. I respect your Rank, just disagree with some of your views.
you could teach me, the real way to become a Chief ?

[Bleedblue]

Hey Chief, what AFSC do you work in or have a background in ?

[CrustySMSgt]

You have been thinking the same way for 20 plus years, just because you have been in a long time dosent mean your part of the solution. Have you made the Air Force better than you found it ? or have you just played the game and continued the insanity so you could see three top rockers on you sleeve. I don't a Chief woth his pay would respond to a junior NCO with that great "mentorship" youve stated above.
I hope you retire before I have the displeasure of working in you 1980's mentality AMU.

I don't work heavies....and yes I found where it states Mid-shift is not authorized. I work in a completyly different world from heavies, so don't even go there. Guess it depends on which 21-101 your looking at , not to mention the SUP for the base your at. If you don't know the Fighter world, then don't be so quick to thick you do. You sound like a typical production staffer. Thats why the flight line is the way it is, because people like you make it to SNCO status and keep the big wheels turning while you throw your own people under the gears, hoping you make senior or chief. You culdnt have posted a better response. By the way...you could have never cut it in the MTI world...you can't think out of the box

Not so, Not so. I respect your Rank, just disagree with some of your views.
you could teach me, the real way to become a Chief ?

If that is your definition of respect, I think you need a new dictionary. Not sure how telling him "you don't know anything about what I do (which he does), that he doesn't know how regulations work, that he is a "typical staffer," he can't think outside the box, and hasn't changed since the 80s, is a sign of respect for his rank and the experience he's gathered on his way to making it.

[CrustySMSgt]

Hey Chief, what AFSC do you work in or have a background in ?

Not sure if you are asking me (still trying to learn how to tell if people are talking to me when they say Chief... lol) but if you are, I was force shaped out of Security POLICE at 12.5 years and into Command Post.... but if it gets me a little credibility, my wife is a 22 year Crew Chief... lol

[Bleedblue]

If that is your definition of respect, I think you need a new dictionary. Not sure how telling him "you don't know anything about what I do (which he does), that he doesn't know how regulations work, that he is a "typical staffer," he can't think outside the box, and hasn't changed since the 80s, is a sign of respect for his rank and the experience he's gathered on his way to making it.
just replying by the tone and content of the verbage.....this is a discussion right...learn from each other..I beleive that alot of SNCO's turn a blind eye to people and focus on Hardware....I could be wrong, hope to find out one day.

[Bleedblue]

wow....married to a crew chief....I bow down !

[CrustySMSgt]

wow....married to a crew chief....I bow down !

What can I say, once I got over the bad attitude, smoking, drinking, cussing, dirty hands & bleeding knuckles, she was an all right gal! :D

Trust me, it makes for some very interesting proffesional discussions... lol

[Bleedblue]

well, at least she dosent Dip....I knew one that did.....wow !

[MACHINE666]

Here is where we are at with the PT test. Here is a story of two MSgts.

MSgt A, NCOIC of Office A
Scores 92 on PT
Office A scored "Marginal" on major IG inspection

MSgt B, NCOIC of Office B
Scored 72 on PT
Office B scored "Excellent" on major IG inspection

MSgt A will be promoted and get a firewall EPR and a decoration when he leaves.

MSgt B will get a markdown or referral...no decoration...probably never make SMSgt.

SO TRUE. My story is similar to MSgt B where my last time at Kunsan I was literally the only person who knew all duties within my work section and had to train all my airmen from the ground up. It required alot of overtime, alot of reviewing the AFIs with a fine toothed comb and getting my folks where they needed to be, but because I did lousy on a PT score, I left there with a 4 EPR and mark downs. What's funny is how if you read my EPR, the rater practically bows and scrapes and sings praises at how wonderful a job I had done, but the killer was the fact the endorser was my OIC who was a royal jerk and had only been in the military for a year and a half at that time (and had no idea how to run a section, let alone manage people). Leadership was more concerned with the fact I was on the remedial fitness program, than the fact I was the only person at the job who knew what the hell I was doing, essentially being the 'glue' holding the whole she-bang together.

For all you folks out there who think the PT test defines the person, I openly laugh in your face. You're out of touch with reality. PT is important, yes, but when I test for rank, I'm using a pencil and a piece of paper, not the 'two brains' and 'one muscle'. Yelling at people and belittling them over something so subjective to change is pointless. If you're that ate up with PT, go join the Marines or something....:rolleyes:

[Measure Man]

Congratulations on making CMSgt by the way!

The numbers quoted are from USAF data and it still lists the marginal category.

The reason that the data is questionable is because of the waist measurement. Do away with the measurement, set a clear standard that is age/sex appropriate for the run and strength components, and make it pass or fail. For example, a 46 y/o male should be able to run 1.5 miles in 12:15 and do 40 pushups and 45 situps in one minute. I don't care what the number is but set a standard that a reasonably fit 46 y/o should be able to meet. You could set the standard as what the 85 percentile of all 46 y/o males taking the PT test in the last 2 years have scored. I don't care. We (the USAF) have taken a simple thing and once again made it hard.

Okay, not to jump into this spat and all..

Just wanted to point out....that if you set the standard at the 85 percentile...that guarantees that 84% of the force will fail to meet the standard...wouldn't matter how fit we got...those 84% would still fail.

I think it pretty much doesn't matter what you set the standard at...a lot of people will be unhappy with it. the way it is, I think, is fine...it's attainable...but you do have to do SOME working out to meet it. I think that's what the AF was after, and that's what they got.

Now...the maniacal implementation of it at the base-level is another topic...failing your PT test one time shouldn't be the kiss of death...which it is rapidly turning into. In fact...I just got a SNCO in from Base X...their policy was if you didn't get over an 80, you couldn't get Senior Rater Indorsement.

Anybody know what the Army/Marine consequences are for failing PT? I know they get points for their score...but I mean will it continue to affect them years afterward if they raise their score?

[Venus]

SO TRUE. My story is similar to MSgt B where my last time at Kunsan I was literally the only person who knew all duties within my work section and had to train all my airmen from the ground up. It required alot of overtime, alot of reviewing the AFIs with a fine toothed comb and getting my folks where they needed to be, but because I did lousy on a PT score, I left there with a 4 EPR and mark downs. What's funny is how if you read my EPR, the rater practically bows and scrapes and sings praises at how wonderful a job I had done, but the killer was the fact the endorser was my OIC who was a royal jerk and had only been in the military for a year and a half at that time (and had no idea how to run a section, let alone manage people). Leadership was more concerned with the fact I was on the remedial fitness program, than the fact I was the only person at the job who knew what the hell I was doing, essentially being the 'glue' holding the whole she-bang together.

For all you folks out there who think the PT test defines the person, I openly laugh in your face. You're out of touch with reality. PT is important, yes, but when I test for rank, I'm using a pencil and a piece of paper, not the 'two brains' and 'one muscle'. Yelling at people and belittling them over something so subjective to change is pointless. If you're that ate up with PT, go join the Marines or something....:rolleyes:


I think alot of that is SqCC driven, Last Sq I was in had some star performers who knew their job inside and out but severe ailments such as bad knees or bad backs and other malidies that got them wavers on a PT test but the CC let them slide because they got the mission done. Now if they were a bunch of POS'es the CC would have hammered them, there are alot of 40yr old plus Airmen who bodies are ruined after 20 years on a flightline who find it very painful to run such as myself but I regulary bike 20 miles a day because my hips and knees are shot, I am 6ft 220# 32"waist,48"chest and a 18"neck , I guess to some people I am fat but I can still lift a 250 pound toolbox into the back of a truck anytime without straining myself.

[Venus]

Not sure if you are asking me (still trying to learn how to tell if people are talking to me when they say Chief... lol) but if you are, I was force shaped out of Security POLICE at 12.5 years and into Command Post.... but if it gets me a little credibility, my wife is a 22 year Crew Chief... lol

Bet you learned a bunch of new 4 letter words that you did not know existed. Bet she hated the NCOA because they made wear a skirt and pantyhose and put make up on. Most female Crew Chiefs I worked with could kick my ass plus you just shrugged if you thought about them in a intimate way.

[Sgt Grandpa]

*Disclaimer* While I am obviously being facetious with my post, some of you need to bring your heads back down out of the clouds. The whole "You are on my team, I am not on yours" mentality is getting a bit ridiculous.


By that statement, you mean that we as a Military or do are you specifying only Air Force personnel? Not trying to poop on you comment as it makes sense, just wondering.

[SinisterK9]

By that statement, you mean that we as a Military or do are you specifying only Air Force personnel? Not trying to poop on you comment as it makes sense, just wondering.


Actually both. But as I have mentioned previously, we are all part of the Armed Forces with a common overall mission.

[Sgt Grandpa]

Anybody know what the Army/Marine consequences are for failing PT? I know they get points for their score...but I mean will it continue to affect them years afterward if they raise their score?

I'll answer for the Army: It works like this (in theory anyway)

Soldier A has to do X # of Pushups in 2 minutes, then Y # of situps in 2 minutes. Those numbers translate to a specific score. Then they have a 2 mile run that they need to complete before Z Time. the better the ime, the better the score. Minimum to pass is 60 points per event in all events, Max is 300 points, with bonus points added for "extra" as long as they meet the 100% in each and ALL events. then there is a ht/wt check. Based on age, they either pass or get taped. If they get taped, they can either go or no-go. Go means that they met the Body fat % and theitrr PT test counts towards promotion. No-go means that they get a flag in their record, until they either make weight, get transferred or get out. PT Fails don't seem to follow you per-se, however if you fail then you don't get promoted due to the flag.

Basically, if you pass the test and the ht/wt, you get points for promotion. If you fail any part, you get remedial (which includes monthly diagnostics until you pass) AND you get a flag on your file which says you get no positive admin action until flag is removed (means no awards, no promotions, no pass or leave {though I have never seen the last part happen but it could}).

I'll get more info and edit this post in a few moments.

Ok, here is link to the PT manual for the army. https://akocomm.us.army.mil/usapa/Doctrine/DR_pubs/dr_aa/pdf/fm21_20.pdf I believe everyone can log in via the AKO portal now-adays, but if not; try google searching Army PT Standards

for those not able to access the above link, here is another one: http://www.us-army-info.com/pages/pdfs/PTreq.pdf

[USMC_8156]

Anybody know what the Army/Marine consequences are for failing PT? I know they get points for their score...but I mean will it continue to affect them years afterward if they raise their score?

The Marine consequences for failing a PFT or the new CFT is huge. If you are a Private-Cpl you will be not recommended for promotion for a number of months, probably just until you can pass the PFT. But, since PFT goes directly into the composite scores for promotion up to Sergeant, you basically non-rec yourself by failing. I have only ever seen three Marines fail a PFT, and they basically sucked at life. As a Sergeant and above, failing a PFT/CFT will (the order just came out) result in an adverse fitness report, which is ilke a nail in your coffin. Even in the Air Wing, where Marines work 10-14 hour shifts just like the AF, PFT/CFT scores are a big deal. Just our culture, I guess. Our minimum scores for PFT depends on age, but basically you have to run 3 miles in less than 28m, at least 8 pullups, and 60 crunches.

Interesting discussion though. I'm inclined to think that since you guys have a completely different role, it shouldn't matter as much. But I'm not in the AF, so whatever that's worth.

[BTDTNM]

Tell ya what. When the Air Force comes clean on the whole Metzger incident, the Thundervision contracting scam, and the other horrible deeds done by leadership, I'll get serious about the PT crap.

The rules are, at least a 75 once a year. Anything else and you can pack sand.

And the whole fit to fight thing? A joke. I fire a weapon once every three years. WOW! What a baddass I am! Haven't had to punch anyone since I was in high school. I'm hell on wheels you know. These are the standards for most. Don't try to portray us as something we aren't.

[VFFSSGT]

...I guess so we can run away from the enemy....

Well, they don't train us to fight (JITT for weapons now) because it is too expensive so we at least have to be able to run away...:rolleyes: But don't worry, they will come up with billions to bail out poor business practices...

[VFFSSGT]

He was my wife's 1st Sgt until he changed Sqs a couple months ago. I don't think he was on the program... but don't know for certain. He was a big guy, but not a "BIG" guy.

Condolences to the family...

Good to see it wasn't you Crusty...it was my first thoughts when I heard about it; then I realized I had seen a post from you since it happen...

[VFFSSGT]

Would you rather have more manpower to do PT across the base or to process your orders, validate your travel vouchers, take care of security clearances, etc., etc?

Well, the websites are about as efficient <sarcasm> as the personnelist I have dealt with in my time...so my vote is more manpower to do PT across the board.

[CrustySMSgt]

Condolences to the family...

Good to see it wasn't you Crusty...it was my first thoughts when I heard about it; then I realized I had seen a post from you since it happen...

They had his memorial yesterday... I was on the Honor Guard detail... always get choked up at Taps... definitely a whole different thing when you're behind the bugle "playing" it for someone you know...

[Bleedblue]

Tell ya what. When the Air Force comes clean on the whole Metzger incident, the Thundervision contracting scam, and the other horrible deeds done by leadership, I'll get serious about the PT crap.

The rules are, at least a 75 once a year. Anything else and you can pack sand.

And the whole fit to fight thing? A joke. I fire a weapon once every three years. WOW! What a baddass I am! Haven't had to punch anyone since I was in high school. I'm hell on wheels you know. These are the standards for most. Don't try to portray us as something we aren't.
I am a warrior......LOL Warrior ethos baby !!!!

[HC130P_FE]

if anyone ever heard of where the 1.5 mile came from knows what i'm going to say. We only get timed for 1.5 miles. That is not to say the bad guys won't run after us when we pass the 1.5 mile mark. I'm also not saying we need to run a 5k to pass our test. I know, myself would die. We don't train to run. We train to evade. Oh wait a second are we not trying to do that anymore? The Army Pt test seems much easier then what we have now. But I'll never flat out run 2 miles in combat. I'll have to loose my body armor, survial vest, flight suit and flight boots and change to pt gear with running shoes to do this. It's a stupid test. You could complete a 5 mile march in all gear required for operations in a specific time. I don't know about any one here but i know i can't evade with survial vest, body armor, m9, m4 and helmate. Call me crazy we didn't even do that in school.

[BTDTNM]

All this new talk and no mention of the scale for old folks. It's not very accommodating for the aged. Like it or not the Reserves and Guard are a HUGE part of the combat capabilities in the AF. Simple fact is that the average age is much higher in the reserve component than the active. Tie that with the fact that roughly 66% of the reserve component are weekend warriors and you can kiss the unit PT thing away as a dream. They may be older and gray but the experience is intangible and it is something you cannot PT your way out of.

Again, is this the paramount issue of the day? What happens when the defense budget starts looking like the value of the S&P? Maybe all we would be able to afford to do at that point is do push ups. Hmm.

[VFFSSGT]

I can't beleive....no yes I can...that somebody like you made Chief. Your attempt to mentor is in Deep suck staus by the way......
Can't we all just be friends....????

I am sure Crusty can hold his own but I will say you are barking up the wrong tree.

[Bleedblue]

if anyone ever heard of where the 1.5 mile came from knows what i'm going to say. We only get timed for 1.5 miles. That is not to say the bad guys won't run after us when we pass the 1.5 mile mark. I'm also not saying we need to run a 5k to pass our test. I know, myself would die. We don't train to run. We train to evade. Oh wait a second are we not trying to do that anymore? The Army Pt test seems much easier then what we have now. But I'll never flat out run 2 miles in combat. I'll have to loose my body armor, survial vest, flight suit and flight boots and change to pt gear with running shoes to do this. It's a stupid test. You could complete a 5 mile march in all gear required for operations in a specific time. I don't know about any one here but i know i can't evade with survial vest, body armor, m9, m4 and helmate. Call me crazy we didn't even do that in school.
remember to tuck in your shirt and stap on your reflective belt

[ppulspmp]

The Chief Master Sergent of the Air Force is wrong, I said it. We don't need a new PT program, we need to rethink fitness. Skinny or thin in the blues looks nice, does not mean your healthy or combat ready. Lets look at every thing, not just the run and the stupid waist measurement that gives a skinny person the choice that others won't have(work hard or not and still pass on the test). Our offices have snack bars and vending machines, can you find the healthy snack. Besides a salad can a man get a real choice in healthy foods whether on shift or 9 to 5? Does our enlisted leader ever ask, what if we ask those that failed as well as the PTLs to get the rest of the story? Finally, lets be real just because you run in 12 min or less, have a 30 inch waiste, and meet the BMI standard(designed by a math guy not an actually doctor before medical advancements) does not make you fit. Lets have real fitness, put healthy food choices everywhere, add an additional requirement or two for fitness(blood pressure, cholesteral, and a test of maybe flexibility). Don't add an aditional PT test add a real obsticle course for warm months and say hey " You got 20 minutes to get thru it skinny guy, and if you do you pass. If you don't you gotta take PT next month and pass.

[Bleedblue]

I am sure Crusty can hold his own but I will say you are barking up the wrong tree.
Him and I worked things out....now move along.....

[Bleedblue]

The Chief Master Sergent of the Air Force is wrong, I said it. We don't need a new PT program, we need to rethink fitness. Skinny or thin in the blues looks nice, does not mean your healthy or combat ready. Lets look at every thing, not just the run and the stupid waist measurement that gives a skinny person the choice that others won't have(work hard or not and still pass on the test). Our offices have snack bars and vending machines, can you find the healthy snack. Besides a salad can a man get a real choice in healthy foods whether on shift or 9 to 5? Does our enlisted leader ever ask, what if we ask those that failed as well as the PTLs to get the rest of the story? Finally, lets be real just because you run in 12 min or less, have a 30 inch waiste, and meet the BMI standard(designed by a math guy not an actually doctor before medical advancements) does not make you fit. Lets have real fitness, put healthy food choices everywhere, add an additional requirement or two for fitness(blood pressure, cholesteral, and a test of maybe flexibility). Don't add an aditional PT test add a real obsticle course for warm months and say hey " You got 20 minutes to get thru it skinny guy, and if you do you pass. If you don't you gotta take PT next month and pass.
how about strength ? Its all endurance and skinny waists. When we stop selling tobacco products at a discount on base I will sit up and pay attention to Air Force leadership opinion on my health and fitness level, untill then I worry about the test once a year.

[VFFSSGT]

Him and I worked things out....now move along.....

If that's what you want to call it... :rolleyes: LOL I think someone just finally forced you to take your meds like he mentioned. :D

[Bleedblue]

If that's what you want to call it... :rolleyes: LOL I think someone just finally forced you to take your meds like he mentioned. :D
Shhhhh....

[jshenry321]

When it comes to fitness test, why not test like we (should) operate: Just get the job done! Make a test that is simple and test abilities. Push ups, running, sit ups..fine. You want regular obstacle course performance? Fine. Why the heck do we need to mess around with waist measurements and BMI?? Let the doctors determine 'health' during regular exams. Let the PT test just be about physical abilities. That is what fit to fight is about. Go ahead, make it more challenging. 2 mile run and more push-ups/sit-ups should be enough.

[technomage1]

When it comes to fitness test, why not test like we (should) operate: Just get the job done! Make a test that is simple and test abilities. Push ups, running, sit ups..fine. You want regular obstacle course performance? Fine. Why the heck do we need to mess around with waist measurements and BMI?? Let the doctors determine 'health' during regular exams. Let the PT test just be about physical abilities. That is what fit to fight is about. Go ahead, make it more challenging. 2 mile run and more push-ups/sit-ups should be enough.

So a pass/fail test?

[schwag_guest]

So a pass/fail test?

YES! or...design it so that guys with bigger waist sizes (I'm 34" waist guy and always have been even after FT, but still runs a 6:40/mi) have the chance to win points back by going past the max on other events.

[Measure Man]

YES! or...design it so that guys with bigger waist sizes (I'm 34" waist guy and always have been even after FT, but still runs a 6:40/mi) have the chance to win points back by going past the max on other events.

First off...it already is pass/fail.

Secondly...the whole point of them "revamping" is because 97% of the people are passing while half are still considered obese...allowing people to be fatter and pass does little to correct the apparent problems.

[Stang5150]

Good. I say we keep raising the standards so that we can weed out all of these fat ugly Airmen and only have skinny good looking Airmen in my Air Force. Because that's what wins wars. Not mission capabilities.

[schwag_guest]

Good. I say we keep raising the standards so that we can weed out all of these fat ugly Airmen and only have skinny good looking Airmen in my Air Force. Because that's what wins wars. Not mission capabilities.

Hows about we keep raising standards to keep people in good physical shape???

This isn't about creating super human Airman, because it's not possible for everyone across the board to be PJ/CCT fit. However, its not fitting of a military image when you see Amn/Sgt/Lt/Capt/Col/etc Snuffy who cannot even button his pants/shirt anymore!

Be accountable for your personal fitness!!!

[BRUWIN]

However, its not fitting of a military image when you see Amn/Sgt/Lt/Capt/Col/etc Snuffy who cannot even button his pants/shirt anymore!



How is that a problem with fitness? I've been lifting weights for two years now and I'm fitter than ever but have trouble with my buttons. It's a uniform supply issue

[SinisterK9]

Good. I say we keep raising the standards so that we can weed out all of these fat ugly Airmen and only have skinny good looking Airmen in my Air Force. Because that's what wins wars. Not mission capabilities.


Being able to do your job, while being physically fit is not an unreasonable request. The AF is basically happy if you can keep your gut under 40 inches. That is by no means skinny.
There is no hypothetical choice between being able to do your job, or being physically fit. You can have both.

There is no good reason for keeping an Airman who looks like Jabba the Hut, just because he can still turn his wrench, type on his keyboard, or write tickets with the best of 'em.

[Stang5150]

Yes being fit to do your job is paramount for success to the mission but do I need to be as fit as the Combat Controller or PJ to do my job? Not likely. Do I need to be fit enough to at least do what is necessary under duress and not faulter because of physical restraints? Absolutely. So if we go with the mantra "train like we fight" and look at ways our career fields require us to do and then set up standards to go with those career fields then the AirForce will get what they want from us. A force that is at least fit enough to do the job we applied for.

Also the way to bring obesity down is not to run the fat guy to death every single day until he loses weight. I can't speak personally about the weight loss programs on base but I do believe that the medical side of the house should be involved in educating members about not only losing weight but maintaining weight based upon that member's body structure. Not every person has the same body-weight ratio as the next. If you want it to work it is going to have to be tailored to a more personal level.

[SinisterK9]

Yes being fit to do your job is paramount for success to the mission but do I need to be as fit as the Combat Controller or PJ to do my job? Not likely. Do I need to be fit enough to at least do what is necessary under duress and not faulter because of physical restraints? Absolutely. So if we go with the mantra "train like we fight" and look at ways our career fields require us to do and then set up standards to go with those career fields then the AirForce will get what they want from us. A force that is at least fit enough to do the job we applied for.

Also the way to bring obesity down is not to run the fat guy to death every single day until he loses weight. I can't speak personally about the weight loss programs on base but I do believe that the medical side of the house should be involved in educating members about not only losing weight but maintaining weight based upon that member's body structure. Not every person has the same body-weight ratio as the next. If you want it to work it is going to have to be tailored to a more personal level.

The PJ or spec ops argument NEVER even enters into the equation. The basic AF standard isn't even in the same ballpark, so there is no need for the dramatic comparison.

There are multiple ways to bring down the weight. Yes, one way is to run the fat man into the ground with PT. Funny how it worked in basic, yet some people don't believe it would work now.
Now, do I believe that's always the right avenue of approach? No I don't. Refer then, to my countless posts about going to the HAWC and seeking competant, certified advice from a Dietician, and a fitness professional.
The AF gives you every tool you could ever need. And they do it all for free.

[CrustySMSgt]

Also the way to bring obesity down is not to run the fat guy to death every single day until he loses weight. I can't speak personally about the weight loss programs on base but I do believe that the medical side of the house should be involved in educating members about not only losing weight but maintaining weight based upon that member's body structure. Not every person has the same body-weight ratio as the next. If you want it to work it is going to have to be tailored to a more personal level.

For most, losing weight doesn't take consulting a doctor, dietician, personal trainer, or whatever. It is very simple math... you burn more calories than you take in. Drinking a 12 pack of Mt Dew & eating at the club buffet for lunch everyday, combined with funding your Sq Christmas party through you contributions to the snack bar ain't gonna get you there if you aren't out burning calories 5 times a week.

For the most part it is all about choices...

[Cornbreadrules]

My attempt at mentoring? Mentoring is a 2-way relationship... I've not tried to mentor you at all... after seeing the respect you have for one of your own Chiefs, I wouldn't waste my time on you... you obviously know everything already, you don't need my help... besides, I'm just a non'er, so I've got nothing to teach you anyway. :rolleyes:

I just hope you mentor and talk to the troops as much as you post! I can safely say I havent seen to many E-8's or 9's out among the troops in my career trying to see what is going on. Commander calls dont count!

[Bleedblue]

I just hope you mentor and talk to the troops as much as you post! I can safely say I havent seen to many E-8's or 9's out among the troops in my career trying to see what is going on. Commander calls dont count!
Crusty is ok...we just got off to a bad start, I will say that the only time MY chief comes to my duty section is when
1. something is wrong
2. he needs something
3.the Commander is here
4. To sell me a Steak burn ticket

[Capt Alfredo]

Crusty is ok...we just got off to a bad start, I will say that the only time MY chief comes to my duty section is when
1. something is wrong
2. he needs something
3.the Commander is here
4. To sell me a Steak burn ticket

Sounds like the first sergeant at my last unit. Never around. Always at an "appointment."

Loser.

[Bleedblue]

Sounds like the first sergeant at my last unit. Never around. Always at an "appointment."

Loser.
I am sure he was out paving a path to Senior MSgt.
I have NEVER....seen my current 1st shirt in my building.
I went on room inspections with him, and three rooms should have faild(nasty) and he let them go.
Shirt duty SEEMS, to have become a stepping stone instead of a corner stone. ( damn I just came up with that )

[Capt Alfredo]

I am sure he was out paving a path to Senior MSgt.
I have NEVER....seen my current 1st shirt in my building.
I went on room inspections with him, and three rooms should have faild(nasty) and he let them go.
Shirt duty SEEMS, to have become a stepping stone instead of a corner stone. ( damn I just came up with that )

Actually he was a SMSgt already. Didn't make chief, at least. Now retired, thankfully.

[CrustySMSgt]

I just hope you mentor and talk to the troops as much as you post! I can safely say I havent seen to many E-8's or 9's out among the troops in my career trying to see what is going on. Commander calls dont count!

Unfortunately I only have 8 troops, so it isn't too hard to get around to them all... lol

At our joint command, our other Chief is leaving, so I will also take over SEL duties... but we only have ~30 AF Enlisted, so still a pretty small group. I am also on the base Honor Guard and use that as an opportunity to mentor the sharp Airmen there. I do my best to get around ahd do what I can to train my eventual replacements.

[Lang]

The on the spot PT test is a very bad idea it will give a way to ambush people that are not liked by their boss.

Much better to have fair realistic standards and methods of staying in shape put in place for service members that work. Its not rocket science. It is really to bad that this was not put into effect years ago prior to 9/11. This should have been put into effect by leadership but it was not.

That said- it is the individual's responsibility to stay in shape- not the AF's job to get you in shape. Current AF members are very lucky to be given time to work out on duty time. In the old days if you got put on the fat boy program you could and often would be shown the door very very quickly

If you are in the military you had better be in good physical shape and able to shoot a weapon and defend yourself. Your booster club and bake sale jive won't help with that..

It is your job- you are in the military.

[sigecaps]

If you are in the military you had better be in good physical shape and able to shoot a weapon and defend yourself. Your booster club and bake sale jive won't help with that..

I think there's a disconnect between what you think of as "military" and the Air Force. The Air Force is not military, not in the "battlefield warrior" sense that you, and most people think of it as. Last month my shot card expired, and I couldn't practice my "warrior" skills because I wasn't special enough or deploying.

It's a matter of resource prioritizing. It would be nice if we could all get time to PT, SV-80A, time on the range, and maybe even some combatives training. But the Air Force doesn't do it because it recognizes what a poor investment it would be since the chances your average Airman will put any of these skills to use is very, very slim. This is hard for people to accept, but our mission set leads to very different training requirements from the Army, and Marines. So we prioritize and send those special people through the training constantly, and others on a case-by-case basis when we send them somewhere we think they might need it. But this very selective process of who to give these warrior skills to means means as a whole, we are not part of the "battlefield warrior" military, and it would be ridiculous to hold us to such standards especially when the Air Force itself isn't investing the resources to see it through.

[CrustySMSgt]

The on the spot PT test is a very bad idea it will give a way to ambush people that are not liked by their boss.



I think moving the test to twice a year would be a much better option than spot tests. Keep everyone "motivated" to do PT year round.

[Capt Alfredo]

I think moving the test to twice a year would be a much better option than spot tests. Keep everyone "motivated" to do PT year round.

Twice a year, on six-month intervals, works for me. In fact, as much as I hate this stupid test, it would be a motivating factor.

[CrustySMSgt]

Twice a year, on six-month intervals, works for me. In fact, as much as I hate this stupid test, it would be a motivating factor.

I think it would take us one step closer to making a healtyh lifestyle a reality. Right now I think we are a lot closer to the way things used to be... mess around all year and gear up at the 11th hour to pass the test. There are some units who have a productive PT program, but many who don't (not opening up the "My unit doesn't do regular PT because we work for a living" argument again... referring to units with established PT programs).

[Capt Alfredo]

I think it would take us one step closer to making a healtyh lifestyle a reality. Right now I think we are a lot closer to the way things used to be... mess around all year and gear up at the 11th hour to pass the test. There are some units who have a productive PT program, but many who don't (not opening up the "My unit doesn't do regular PT because we work for a living" argument again... referring to units with established PT programs).

Yeah, in the old days, you at least had to worry about the random weigh-in to keep you honest. No longer.

[weazlefuzion]

I'm not sure what the proposed regulation is, but the "On The Spot" tests shouldn't be "You, test today.", but should be 10-days notice PFTs out of the blue for an entire unit, whether it be a shop, flight, squadron, etc. If the Air Force is going "Back to Basics", which from what I can tell isn't going back to the old AF, it's becoming more military and Army-like, then unit-based activities that aren't mandated by the booster club would be a good start. The surprise PT test will make sure that people aren't screwing around for a month or two and the 10-day-notice will make sure the avid gym goers take a break to rest up.

As far as the actual test. What measure of strength is one minute of half-ass pushups/crunches? The times should be set to two minutes so that form can be stressed more than number. Not only should there be a minimum number of pushups/situps, but you should also be required to work the entire two minutes, regardless of what number you hit. This alleviates the issue of pushing out 50 crappy reps to get done as fast as you can and makes sure there isn't any unofficial competition for maxing under a certain time which will encourage all to do better exercises.

The waist tape and BMI should be eliminated. QED. If an Airman is placed into the fat-kid program for failing PT or looking horribly unprofessional in his stretched uniform, then you can use those things. I, however, will never have below even a 33" waist and therefore can never max the PT test, even though I am in better shape than 90% of the people I know. Once again, this is that cookie-cutter, one-size-fits-all, mentality. Not everyone will be within the range of X and Y for waist, weight, or a ridiculous measurement like BMI.

[Shrike]

I think there's a disconnect between what you think of as "military" and the Air Force. The Air Force is not military, not in the "battlefield warrior" sense that you, and most people think of it as. Last month my shot card expired, and I couldn't practice my "warrior" skills because I wasn't special enough or deploying.

It's a matter of resource prioritizing. It would be nice if we could all get time to PT, SV-80A, time on the range, and maybe even some combatives training. But the Air Force doesn't do it because it recognizes what a poor investment it would be since the chances your average Airman will put any of these skills to use is very, very slim. This is hard for people to accept, but our mission set leads to very different training requirements from the Army, and Marines. So we prioritize and send those special people through the training constantly, and others on a case-by-case basis when we send them somewhere we think they might need it. But this very selective process of who to give these warrior skills to means means as a whole, we are not part of the "battlefield warrior" military, and it would be ridiculous to hold us to such standards especially when the Air Force itself isn't investing the resources to see it through.

Well said. The USAF can spout all the "warrior" nonsense it wants, but the reality of the situation is much different.

[Lang]

Well we will agree to disagree

I talk to a lot of young Airmen coming back from the sandbox I make it a point to ask them "what training did you need that you did not have what did you need to know and be taught?"

Many of them most of them- say "more weapons training and H2H TX" of some kind. I know there is a lot of resistance to this type of training in the AF- its not corporate, it breaks the comfort zone its a change. If you are sending people to a combat zone and telling them "here is your rifle airman get in the truck". you owe it to them to train them.

Of course those young Airmen reading this you need to know you can't depend on the AF for this type of Tx. So consider take it on yourself and get some instruction on your own- if you may get deployed..

"hard for people to accept", yes its hard for people to accept change- the fact is that personel defense combat skills are needed by many airmen today and its quite possible that many more are going to need it in the future. Slim chance of that? I would not bet on it.

The funds and time are there right now- its a matter of priorities.. AF has funds to water the desert, plasma TVs, renovate HQ 10X. Time for Homosexual , human traffic, no fear cbt's.

For sure they cam make time and find funds for TX real military skills- If leadership wants to.

"The USAF can spout all the "warrior" nonsense it wants, but the reality of the situation is much different"

You are correct here for sure, mores the pity

I think we can all remember that the reason the "warfit program" came to be in the first place was that AF members were deployed and had a problem keeping up.

As far as revamping the PT program some time of Martial arts based physical training is needed- the troops would love it, I know , I know- it is far fetched for the chair force IBM coorporate type to get a grip on that. More fun to play wally ball and ultimate freesbee anyway- not in AF culture and its way to grotty.

Anybody remember Gen Lemay's combat judo program or a AF dude named CHUCK NORRIS?

Yeah...I thought so.... :).

[CrustySMSgt]

Many of them most of them- say "more weapons training and H2H TX" of some kind. I know there is a lot of resistance to this type of training in the AF- its not corporate, it breaks the comfort zone its a change. If you are sending people to a combat zone and telling them "here is your rifle airman get in the truck". you owe it to them to train them.

Of course those young Airmen reading this you need to know you can't depend on the AF for this type of Tx. So consider take it on yourself and get some instruction on your own- if you may get deployed..

"hard for people to accept", yes its hard for people to accept change- the fact is that personel defense combat skills are needed by many airmen today and its quite possible that many more are going to need it in the future. Slim chance of that? I would not bet on it.


Not to say it isn't a good idea, but I'd like to know just how many Airmen have needed H2H (outside the obvious specialties that get all the training they need)? Outside those directly involved in combat specialties, I'm guessing it is a pretty small number, given the MO of most of the attacks in the AOR.

Do I think the training should be a higher priority than the 1000 60+" plasma screens that were probably purchased with end of year funds... sure. But do I think it is something a fraction of the "regular" AF is going to need to employ... no

[Lang]

Dunno about total number's I am just talking about the guys who have been deployed that I talk to.. Frankly there responses surprised me.
one guy told me he damn near got killed cause he did not have it. why don't you talk to some yourself see what they say? Might find it interesting.

The numbers only matter if you are the guy who needs it. And when deployed you can't always just pull a trigger- prison guard duty etc.

It won't happen AF wide of course it would be a big change, there was some talk of it in the AF times (H2H TX) sometime back but it sputtered out.

Any way good way to stay in shape has a use, builds real fighting spirit and fun- more fun than chasing that tall skinny commander running around the track in those cool MC Hammer outfits..

:)

[Shrike]

Well we will agree to disagree

I talk to a lot of young Airmen coming back from the sandbox I make it a point to ask them "what training did you need that you did not have what did you need to know and be taught?"

Many of them most of them- say "more weapons training and H2H TX" of some kind. I know there is a lot of resistance to this type of training in the AF- its not corporate, it breaks the comfort zone its a change. If you are sending people to a combat zone and telling them "here is your rifle airman get in the truck". you owe it to them to train them.

Of course those young Airmen reading this you need to know you can't depend on the AF for this type of Tx. So consider take it on yourself and get some instruction on your own- if you may get deployed..

"hard for people to accept", yes its hard for people to accept change- the fact is that personel defense combat skills are needed by many airmen today and its quite possible that many more are going to need it in the future. Slim chance of that? I would not bet on it.

The funds and time are there right now- its a matter of priorities.. AF has funds to water the desert, plasma TVs, renovate HQ 10X. Time for Homosexual , human traffic, no fear cbt's.

For sure they cam make time and find funds for TX real military skills- If leadership wants to.

"The USAF can spout all the "warrior" nonsense it wants, but the reality of the situation is much different"

You are correct here for sure, mores the pity

I think we can all remember that the reason the "warfit program" came to be in the first place was that AF members were deployed and had a problem keeping up.

As far as revamping the PT program some time of Martial arts based physical training is needed- the troops would love it, I know , I know- it is far fetched for the chair force IBM coorporate type to get a grip on that. More fun to play wally ball and ultimate freesbee anyway- not in AF culture and its way to grotty.

Anybody remember Gen Lemay's combat judo program or a AF dude named CHUCK NORRIS?

Yeah...I thought so.... :).

Can you say what career field you're in? Because you say "many" will need h2h combat skills, yet I've met very few who can claim that.

[Lang]

I'm not in any career field- I am talking about the kids like you I talk to who come back from the sand box they are not CC or PJ's most tasked for convoy duty from many afsc's, trans, medics and so on... you sure you are not gonna go? Your job does not deploy? IMO its a good thing to know..Sure can't hurt.

[Shrike]

I'm not in any career field- I am talking about the kids like you I talk to who come back from the sand box they are not CC or PJ's most tasked for convoy duty from many afsc's, trans, medics and so on... you sure you are not gonna go? Your job does not deploy? IMO its a good thing to know..Sure can't hurt.

Thanks for the "kid" complement, but I'm a SNCO with 20+ years TIS. And that experience is what leads me to my previous statements about this whole "warrior" mentality being a joke.

Are there airmen that could benefit from the type of training you refer to? There sure are. But they are a very small minority. Identify them, and provide them the training. But don't waste everyone else's time with even more training they don't need.

[Old School CC]

I like how the article asked PTL's what they thought. 90% of the PTLs are part of that 5% group. These are the Hard Chargers that will someday make chief. Now ask the rest of hte Air Force what they think.

We need to quit trying to look like a bunch of zippersuit inserts. These damn pilots need to decide quick, Do they want planes to fly or Johnny super troop to look pretty in his blues.

The whole image thing burns my ass, If you got a guy who is a damn fine mechanic he almost always does not fit the "image". He's a grease monkey from head to toe.

I know allot of SNCOs that have been "forced/chose" retirement because of the PT program. Allot of that experence base is gone because they couldn't pass PT for what ever reason. For me, I am opting out too because I can't run, hell I can't even walk it hurts so much. And no I am not over weight I am just getting old and it fricken hurts to much. Last year I saw 3 SMSgt Selects get out because the PT program. No one tracks these numbers because they are so well masked.

Yes, this program needs to get changed, I needs to reflect what a person does for the Air Force. If I sit at a Keyboard and mouse all day then what the hell do I have to do Push ups and run for??? If I fix a jet in 114 degree heat, why should I have to run a mile and a half?

This is the same Job I would do in "Combat" HELLO!!!!!! Why make me run if I wouldn't run in combat? If I run at work QA gives me a DSV for running on the ramp and it's a safety violation....

[KOTULCN]

just out of curiousity I wonder what Chief McKinley's waist comes in at, has anyone seen the photo of him in the AF times doing arm circles, I know as you reach higher ages your waist is allowed to be bigger but he is nowhere near that 32" magical number. I am not a smaller guy and therefore even at my smallest I still had a 37" waist. Just listen to the real experts - the ones that got fired for voicing their opinion when they were tasked with making sure this new testing system was healthy/fair, yeah they said the system was flawed and were let go.

[CrustySMSgt]

I'm not in any career field- I am talking about the kids like you I talk to who come back from the sand box they are not CC or PJ's most tasked for convoy duty from many afsc's, trans, medics and so on... you sure you are not gonna go? Your job does not deploy? IMO its a good thing to know..Sure can't hurt.

Sorry, but I've gott a thow the BS flag... even those on convoy duties (and I've talked to quite a few who've done it), are very rarely placed in a H2H situation... IEDs are the name of the game there... very few insurgents with the balls to show their sorry faces... Either you've had the pleasure of sharing time with a concentrated pocket of non-traditional AF bad-asses... or you've got the "I'm gullible, please share your BS war stories with me" look.

A good thing to know? sure... something worth an AF wide training plan to ensure all our "warrior Airmen" are prepared to whup some ass up close and personal, definitely not.

[Capt Alfredo]

lThe Army is streatched so thin- the Army needs help- we have to be ready to help" .

Then the Army needs to recruit more soldiers. I, for one, am sick of picking up their slack. We joined the AF for a reason.

[weazlefuzion]

Then the Army needs to recruit more soldiers. I, for one, am sick of picking up their slack. We joined the AF for a reason.

With all do respect, sir, we've all joined the Air Force for one reason or another, but the selfish act of "I'm in the Air Force and therefore want to avoid combat" is destroying the military (in it's current direction). If you're a conscientious objector, that's just fine. You check that box on your enlistment paperwork and let the military decide what to do. However, when one joins the Armed Forces of America, they should be well-prepared to serve the nation in any way that is required.

I joined to give back to the nation that gave me something and I'm willing to do what it takes to make sure more personnel, whatever service, aren't killed because I joined the service that isn't supposed to run and say "Hooah!" The interservice rivalry is great for morale... to some extent, but you pretty much said "Oh well, the Army isn't recruiting enough soldiers, but I don't wanna run, so let's let them go out undermanned and get killed." Your contract states that the Air Force will give you a "first regular duty assignment" in your guaranteed field. Beyond that, you are at the mercy of service and national needs. Sure, this may reduce the number of recruits coming in, but as far as I can tell it also increases the quality of recruits. Don't trade quality for quantity, especially as the face of warfare changes towards a SOF and independent-operations-based world.

Just because the Air Force has always been one way or another doesn't mean it was the best way. A great mechanic is great, but I don't want to be next to the fat guy at some FOB when the RPGs start coming in. Even a personnelist, who didn't identify as a conscientious objector, should be ready to head to the fight without 6mos of PT to help him fit in the flak vest.

Now, all that said, this "PT Test Revamp" comes to one fork in the road: Are we moving towards a "purple force" that is so interdependent that you essentially join "The Military" instead of the Army or the Air Force, or are we going to continue to establish ourselves as separate services? Everything the Air Force is trying to do now requires more guidance from the politicians and SECDEF on how the military will be organized and tasked in the future. If we're essentially a single military organization, then yes, PT needs to be revamped excessively to properly train and prepare Airmen. However, if we're headed back to blue jumpsuits and whatnot, then the current PT program is just fine since most of us will never see combat. Based on the Warrior Ethos and Airman's Creed, I'd have to say we're headed for the former, whether we like it or not.

[VFFSSGT]

...A great mechanic is great, but I don't want to be next to the fat guy at some FOB when the RPGs start coming in...

But they would make great cover... :D

Nicely said BTW!

[Capt Alfredo]

With all do respect, sir, we've all joined the Air Force for one reason or another, but the selfish act of "I'm in the Air Force and therefore want to avoid combat" is destroying the military (in it's current direction). If you're a conscientious objector, that's just fine. You check that box on your enlistment paperwork and let the military decide what to do. However, when one joins the Armed Forces of America, they should be well-prepared to serve the nation in any way that is required. .

Come now, you cannot seriously argue that anyone (outside perhaps PJs or CC) joined the Air Force in order to participate in jobs that would potentially require him to be proficient at "combat." Is it possible that your helo or plane could be shot down and you might be required to escape/evade/fire your weapon? Of course. It is likely? No. If you wanted a shot at combat, joining the Air Force was a bad decision. Pretending we're "warriors" and MMA fighters is BS and you know it. Nowhere did I advocate disobeying orders, but I would like for our leaders to stand up to the ILO taskings (or whatever PC crap they're calling it today) and say "enough." It's not what we're trained for, and it's not what 99% of us signed up for. If given an assignment in such a tasking, I will receive CST and will carry out my duties as best as I can, but you won't see me volunteering for it.

As far as staying on topic, if the AF PT program is about fit to fight, then there would be no age variation and no gender variation, since the enemy and/or austere conditions make no allowance for those variables. I've had to hump bags in Iraq to/from the Chinook and seen the poor little female airman struggle and look for help lugging her crap. Fit to fight? I'd have the PT test judge your ability to haul a hundred pounds of gear while wearing IBA and fighting 100-degree temps. That's fit to fight as the AF knows it.

[weazlefuzion]

Come now, you cannot seriously argue that anyone (outside perhaps PJs or CC) joined the Air Force in order to participate in jobs that would potentially require him to be proficient at "combat." Is it possible that your helo or plane could be shot down and you might be required to escape/evade/fire your weapon? Of course. It is likely? No. If you wanted a shot at combat, joining the Air Force was a bad decision. Pretending we're "warriors" and MMA fighters is BS and you know it. Nowhere did I advocate disobeying orders, but I would like for our leaders to stand up to the ILO taskings (or whatever PC crap they're calling it today) and say "enough." It's not what we're trained for, and it's not what 99% of us signed up for. If given an assignment in such a tasking, I will receive CST and will carry out my duties as best as I can, but you won't see me volunteering for it.

As far as staying on topic, if the AF PT program is about fit to fight, then there would be no age variation and no gender variation, since the enemy and/or austere conditions make no allowance for those variables. I've had to hump bags in Iraq to/from the Chinook and seen the poor little female airman struggle and look for help lugging her crap. Fit to fight? I'd have the PT test judge your ability to haul a hundred pounds of gear while wearing IBA and fighting 100-degree temps. That's fit to fight as the AF knows it.

Capt, You're exactly on point to what I was talking about. It is currently becoming more and more likely that you or I will end up in those situations in a non-combat AFSC and I don't want to be next to the guy who gets winded after a mile. If the DoD decides that our military is best utilized as a primarily combat-capable force, then fix the PT program. If the DoD decides that the Air Force should not be headed back to an Army Air Corps, then Air Force leadership should remind them of that. Like I said, however, it seems that we're headed towards a fully capable force.

As far as "Fit To Fight" and the gender/age discrepancies. Agreed. 100% agreed. I'm all for women's rights and whatnot, but if they're doing the same job, they need to be held to the same standards much the same that a man (stereotypically a dumb grunt whose job it is to hunt antelope to drag back to the cave) is expected to be nurturing and emotional towards his 3yr old little girl. However, this is one of the many reasons women are kept out of combat arms duty. If the military is headed towards a combat-ready force all over the career spectrum, then women's roles need to be reevaluated.

Note: This is not in any way a hit against women in the military, just an observation.

All in all, we should decide which came first: the chicken, or the egg? Will revamping PT send us toward the purple force doctrine, or must we adapt to the purple force doctrine by adopting a PT program that better represents "Fit To Fight"?

[NORMJC72]

Is it better than the bike test? Absolutely. Does it still have problems? Absolutely.

The problem with the waist measurement portion of the test is, as many have stated, it puts an undue emphasis on waistline to the exclusion of strength (a mere 10 points each for push-ups and sit-ups). I can understand extra emphasis on the run, but we now have situations where twiggy, stick-thin, rabbit-metabolism troops who can eat anything they want, but are naturally thin and can run pretty decent can blow off the push-ups and sit-ups (if they can even push up their own weight) because the push-ups and sit-ups mean little to the PT test for them. Where those of us who are indeed asked to move heavy things and literally do the heavy lifting, who may not be naturally skinny and have to work harder and may have a slower metabolism (granted that means we must work that much harder in those areas) get penallized for it.

But the biggest problem with the waist measurement is that it was added to the PT Test primarily for health reasons. Fine. Put it in the health arena. make it part of the currently worthless PHA (you know... the one where you spend a half hour filling out a piece of paper, then spend a mandatory in person 5 minutes talking to a clinic troop for apparently no reason at all who can't even schedule the necessary appointments you may need resulting from the PHA). Put the waist measurement, and perhabs the BMI, in the health arena and make it truly preventative and farther reaching in its ability to actually engage a member's health related issues. Then leave the PT Test as a PHYSICAL Fitness test. Recommend 50 points run, 25 points Sit-ups, and 25 points Push-ups.

BMI, on the other hand, was a calculation developed in the 1850s or so based purely on height and weight with no regard to gender, age, frame size, body fat percentage, etc. Body fat seems clearly a more appropriate indicator of, well, BODY FAT. Who cares what your mass is as long as you're not too fat. Not mention a 5'11" female can weight the same 179 pounds it takes to be considered healthy as it does for a 5'11" male (and how many 5'11" men over 30 are actually that low?)... Which means a fairly sturdy female and a twiggy man. Both are probably healthy enough, though height and weight are most certainly not a wonderful indicator of atual health. Doesn't seem quite proportional in its standards. So again, put the health in the health arena and make the health care field responsible (and equip them) to engage health care issues. Put the physical fitness pieces in the fitness field in which the commander can actually control to some degree.

Oh yeah... and the BMI program had to be tenuously tied to the Professional Military Image clauses because there are no regulations anywhere in the AF that prohibit a member from being "obese." In the end, AFMC's BMI program tied to Professional Military Image did really the same thing as no BMI program did before: put it in the Commander's lap to make the judgment call as to whether the member is presenting a proper image or not - but added a bunch of other stuff to it, not to mention the pain of the troops having to monitor it because there's no system that does it for you.

[militarywoman]

I Think It Is Unfair With The Bmi And Waist Calculations And No I Am Not Asking To Make It Easier (for Anyone With Smart Comments) At 130 Pounds The Air Force Considered Me To Overweight. I Think The Pt Should Be Harder But Some Sense Has To Found In Order To Make Everyone Pass And Not Everyone That Is Overweight Is Always Eating Or Not Excercising. I Exercise 5 Days A Week 90 Mins A Day And Its Still Not Enough.

[ROLLBOWL]

PT tests should be individually catered to the Airmans career field. For Security Forces, you would have to be able to run from the patrol vehicle to the donut shop 5 times in 5 minutes. For Services, you would have to flip 5 eggs without breaking the yoke one time and for Transporters like me, you would have to kick a box across the warehouse while dropping at least 100 vulgar obscenities in 3 minutes, if every 5th word isn't an obscenity starting with the letter F you fail. Make it more like real life is what I am saying.;)

[CrustySMSgt]

I Think It Is Unfair With The Bmi And Waist Calculations And No I Am Not Asking To Make It Easier (for Anyone With Smart Comments) At 130 Pounds The Air Force Considered Me To Overweight. I Think The Pt Should Be Harder But Some Sense Has To Found In Order To Make Everyone Pass And Not Everyone That Is Overweight Is Always Eating Or Not Excercising. I Exercise 5 Days A Week 90 Mins A Day And Its Still Not Enough.

Gotta ask... did you type this in Word and Change Case to to title case? lol


BMI is a nationally accepted standard; it is not an AF standard.

I think I'd be inclined to agree that we need to make fitness about the ability to perform and go back to having a separate weight management program... but one that is enforced.

[DustyRider]

I think most people would be OK with a PT revamp, as long as every duty section in the Air Force were allotted the same amount of time to prepare. Now, people working MPF get to go to the gym M-W-F without fail. But most flightline and Back shop support functions are not allotted the same opportunities. I fully understand that it is my responsibility to keep in shape, but after putting in 10-12 hours on the line who wants to head to the gym for a couple more hours. With our high deployment rate and longer shifts, our families are the ones who suffer.
So say we give a couple more hours after work, we miss the traditional family dinner. Then we come home to listen to the spouse complain about how we pay no attention to the kids and how they hardly know who their father or mother is. So was the two extra hours at the gym worth the price of your family?
Now if we could shut down maintenance and every other job in the same situation say from 7-9 every morning so I could get my PT in right along side of the MPF personnel that would be great. Only problem is the mission doesn’t stop for PT.

[BRUWIN]

I think most people would be OK with a PT revamp, as long as every duty section in the Air Force were allotted the same amount of time to prepare. Now, people working MPF get to go to the gym M-W-F without fail. But most flightline and Back shop support functions are not allotted the same opportunities. I fully understand that it is my responsibility to keep in shape, but after putting in 10-12 hours on the line who wants to head to the gym for a couple more hours. With our high deployment rate and longer shifts, our families are the ones who suffer.
So say we give a couple more hours after work, we miss the traditional family dinner. Then we come home to listen to the spouse complain about how we pay no attention to the kids and how they hardly know who their father or mother is. So was the two extra hours at the gym worth the price of your family?
Now if we could shut down maintenance and every other job in the same situation say from 7-9 every morning so I could get my PT in right along side of the MPF personnel that would be great. Only problem is the mission doesn’t stop for PT.


Maintenance complaining again by comparing how hard they have it next to MPF folks. Oh..and working 12 hours shifts again. God help us if I forget to recognize that.

So you guys are kinda like the early pioneers. Never a restful moment

[sigecaps]

Commander just sent out an email today. Start leaving a pair of PT gear in your car or at work, spot inspections start Monday. So I guess if I decided to work out before work, or maybe do a heavy leg workout the day before, I'd be screwed. Yes this makes so much sense! Thankfully, I'll be PCAing in a few weeks.

[weazlefuzion]

Commander just sent out an email today. Start leaving a pair of PT gear in your car or at work, spot inspections start Monday. So I guess if I decided to work out before work, or maybe do a heavy leg workout the day before, I'd be screwed. Yes this makes so much sense! Thankfully, I'll be PCAing in a few weeks.

I think the spot inspections should require a few day's notice to make sure someone can rest from a workout or suck down some drugs to get rid of a cold. However, even with the no-notice-right-now PT tests, as long as it isn't recorded for your EPR or anything else and it's only used to give the commander a general idea of how his squadron is doing, then good on him, at least he's taking initiative.

The Army does a similar thing and they call them "Fitness Diagnostics" or something like that (usually at the platoon level though, NCO discretion). You do the PFT just so your supervisor has a general idea of how you're doing. We could do the same and there could be a Wing- or Squadron-wide cutoff score that says, "If you get below score X, do another diagnostic in 10 days." That 2nd diagnostic would give the individual time to get over a cold or recover from a workout. If after that 2nd one you still suck, then go to fat-kid PT. If you pass, then you're good, no paperwork or anything of the like.

Other than testing within the recovery period following a tough workout, there is no reason anyone who is an avid gym-goer could complain about an eval. A 10-15min run and 2min of calisthenics will not throw off your workout schedule in any manner. Hell, I do 1-2 miles pre-workout just to warm up and I am in no way a gifted runner.

The overweight guy can't complain about surprise evals either. Unless he's got a profile, he shouldn't be overweight, so no complaints. Even if it's not the issue of "who cares if he's fat when he does his job", I don't want my taxes paying for his medical bills later. Get in shape!

[S97Batess]

Ok people ENOUGH......Bottom line is this: It is a requirement. Stop the complaining and do what is expected of you. Find the time to do it. I don't give a crap if you work 12 hour days. Find the time. I'm 46 yrs old and have never scored below a 90...why? because I take the time to work out. That might mean getting up at 4 am and residing on 4 hours of sleep or less, why because its a requirement. How can I possibly expect my airman to follow the rules if I can't set the example for them. If you want to fix this problem of fitness once and for all, tie this fitness exam to promotion straight up (both officer and enlisted) and make the fit test a PASS/FAIL in every aspect and don't even tell me that it is with the new EPR standard of meets/ does not meet. This won't affect promtions as much as the senior leadership thinks it will. If you can find the time to study for promotion then you can find the time to workout PERIOD!!. I am sick and tired of our senior leadership telling us WE CAN'T DO THAT...That wouldn't be fair. THIS IS THE MILITARY..Its not a freaking democracy. Here is an example of how to fix this issue. Each age group has a certain amount of pushups/situps to do. If you can't do that amount. YOU FAIL....hence, you cannot be promoted no matter what. Also, each age group has a certain time to make on the run, if you don't make your run time. YOU FAIL....hence you cannot be promoted. Get rid of the waist measurement, thats a waste of time and effort. If you're working out on a consistant basis, you will pass the test. Hence you will not have anything to worry about. I promise you this much, if we went to a standard of this type, the fatties would do one of two things, bust their ass to get back into shape, or don't and don't get promoted. I don't care one way or the other, but what I do care about is this fitness test and the simple fact that NOTHING ever changes, and this debate continues. If you can't pass your test, you are not working out. This debate has gone on long enough. Quit the hand holding, babying our folks, and singing around the campfire. Oh for the record, I go to school, (and yes I have my CCAF) and working on my bachelors, find time to study for promotion, still have time for family, friends, and whatever else the USAF throws my way. MAKE IT HAPPEN PEOPLE. STOP MAKING EXCUSES!!!!!!!!!


I like this........if you want to have your surgeon operate on you after a week of only 4 hours sleep....good on ya.

Besides, the whole PT argument is stupid.....being fit to fight means being able to 'kill the enemy'.

No matter how much PT you do, With my abilities with a weapon....you'll just die running.......we need this to be a complete project.....in shape doesn't do any good without weapons training (NOT THE 1 HOUR TRAINING BEFORE DEPLOYMENT EITHER). THe use of a weapon and the ability to use it should be as important (if not moreso) than all this PT crap.

The whole point of the program has nothing to do with Fit To Fight.....it is a bullet on an OPR to get a star....

And that is to bad, because if this was really that important to the command.....there would be time allotted for it (and not this you get time from work stuff, because you don't.....you just get to come back and work afterwards to make up for that time).

It is nice that you have the ability to get by on 4 hours a night......some people are just lucky that way...most are not.

But I will take your PT score against my weapon ability any day.....too bad that is not that important.

rant off.

[S97Batess]

Come now, you cannot seriously argue that anyone (outside perhaps PJs or CC) joined the Air Force in order to participate in jobs that would potentially require him to be proficient at "combat." Is it possible that your helo or plane could be shot down and you might be required to escape/evade/fire your weapon? Of course. It is likely? No. If you wanted a shot at combat, joining the Air Force was a bad decision. Pretending we're "warriors" and MMA fighters is BS and you know it. Nowhere did I advocate disobeying orders, but I would like for our leaders to stand up to the ILO taskings (or whatever PC crap they're calling it today) and say "enough." It's not what we're trained for, and it's not what 99% of us signed up for. If given an assignment in such a tasking, I will receive CST and will carry out my duties as best as I can, but you won't see me volunteering for it.

As far as staying on topic, if the AF PT program is about fit to fight, then there would be no age variation and no gender variation, since the enemy and/or austere conditions make no allowance for those variables. I've had to hump bags in Iraq to/from the Chinook and seen the poor little female airman struggle and look for help lugging her crap. Fit to fight? I'd have the PT test judge your ability to haul a hundred pounds of gear while wearing IBA and fighting 100-degree temps. That's fit to fight as the AF knows it.


Hear hear....to true.

It would have been nice if the PT program was thought out first before changes are made....

[technomage1]

Spot inspections for PT = I want more DUTY time to work out. That's not keeping me late or dragging me in early, either. That's normal working hours for PT.

Is it too much to ask to get proper PT gear? The PT gear that we have is very substandard. The jacket and pants are OK for lounging around in, but not for running (50% of the test score). It's like running in a wind dragging plastic bag. The shirt is a giant sweat sponge and the shorts - well, I think we all hate the shorts.

[horse]

Commander just sent out an email today. Start leaving a pair of PT gear in your car or at work, spot inspections start Monday. So I guess if I decided to work out before work, or maybe do a heavy leg workout the day before, I'd be screwed. Yes this makes so much sense! Thankfully, I'll be PCAing in a few weeks.

I am going to suggest to my CC we start on the spot CDC tests. If you can't pass the CDC EOC test for the 5-skill level your shit is revoked. Same with 7, 9, 0 and so on. I like that.

[sigecaps]

I am going to suggest to my CC we start on the spot CDC tests. If you can't pass the CDC EOC test for the 5-skill level your shit is revoked. Same with 7, 9, 0 and so on. I like that.

Haha awesome!

[BUFFRAT]

Chief Master Sgt of the Air Force McKinley stresses we need to be "Fit to Fight" and hence all of the machinations on whether the PT Test is too tough, is it fair, and whether we're kicking enough of the "Fatties" out like the Navy does? But the one thing I have not heard in all of the BS on this subject is where is the study that says we are unfit to fight! Where are the statistics of troops who were non-deployable because they couldn't do as many crunches as McKinley? Where is one instance of a member of our Air Force dying in combat from enemy action because he didn't score the max on the 1.5 mile run? And I'm still waiting to see their answer to the argument that if 44.4% of the force is considered obese have you ever considered that the measurement to determine what constitutes "obese" might be skewed?

In all my years in the Air Force I never missed an assignment, never called in sick, never had a commander question my ability to do my job or lead my young Airmen. I have served in combat zones, been decorated, and scored max proficiency reports. I made rank with mostly minimum time in grade and could be depended on to be mission orientated and "fit to fight".And I always pushed up against upper weight limits and scored in the middle of measured PT activities.

I originally asked where is the evidence we can't fight? It only makes sense that this should be the overriding factor determining the physical fitness standards of the Air Force. And in an Air Force where our leaders can't properly safeguard nuclear weapons, where they can't properly procure replacements for our worn out aircraft, and where they are willing to trade hard working and dedicated Airmen for another Predator, maybe McKinley and everyone else should worry about those needs rather then if an Airman can do the 1.5 mile run under 10 minutes!

[Shrike]

I think the spot inspections should require a few day's notice to make sure someone can rest from a workout or suck down some drugs to get rid of a cold. However, even with the no-notice-right-now PT tests, as long as it isn't recorded for your EPR or anything else and it's only used to give the commander a general idea of how his squadron is doing, then good on him, at least he's taking initiative.

The Army does a similar thing and they call them "Fitness Diagnostics" or something like that (usually at the platoon level though, NCO discretion). You do the PFT just so your supervisor has a general idea of how you're doing. We could do the same and there could be a Wing- or Squadron-wide cutoff score that says, "If you get below score X, do another diagnostic in 10 days." That 2nd diagnostic would give the individual time to get over a cold or recover from a workout. If after that 2nd one you still suck, then go to fat-kid PT. If you pass, then you're good, no paperwork or anything of the like.

Other than testing within the recovery period following a tough workout, there is no reason anyone who is an avid gym-goer could complain about an eval. A 10-15min run and 2min of calisthenics will not throw off your workout schedule in any manner. Hell, I do 1-2 miles pre-workout just to warm up and I am in no way a gifted runner.

The overweight guy can't complain about surprise evals either. Unless he's got a profile, he shouldn't be overweight, so no complaints. Even if it's not the issue of "who cares if he's fat when he does his job", I don't want my taxes paying for his medical bills later. Get in shape!

You had me until this last statement, as it opens the door for lots of questions: You're fine with a smoker who's in great shape? What about a marathoner who eats nothing but fast food breakfast/lunch/dinner? How about heavy drinkers that are fitness fanatics? What about a totally cut weightlifter who engages in unprotected sex with multiple partners? What about a married couple who are very fit, but are swingers? You will most likely pay later for all of those people, no matter what shape they're in.

And to head off any questions, all five of the examples from above are people I've worked with in my career.

[CrustySMSgt]

And to head off any questions, all five of the examples from above are people I've worked with in my career.

Dude, I want to party with you! You've got a cool circle of friends! :D

[Shrike]

Dude, I want to party with you! You've got a cool circle of friends! :D

You meet all types over 20+ years. And the swingers? Um...not very attractive people.

[weazlefuzion]

Chief Master Sgt of the Air Force McKinley stresses we need to be "Fit to Fight" and hence all of the machinations on whether the PT Test is too tough, is it fair, and whether we're kicking enough of the "Fatties" out like the Navy does? But the one thing I have not heard in all of the BS on this subject is where is the study that says we are unfit to fight! Where are the statistics of troops who were non-deployable because they couldn't do as many crunches as McKinley? Where is one instance of a member of our Air Force dying in combat from enemy action because he didn't score the max on the 1.5 mile run? And I'm still waiting to see their answer to the argument that if 44.4% of the force is considered obese have you ever considered that the measurement to determine what constitutes "obese" might be skewed?

In all my years in the Air Force I never missed an assignment, never called in sick, never had a commander question my ability to do my job or lead my young Airmen. I have served in combat zones, been decorated, and scored max proficiency reports. I made rank with mostly minimum time in grade and could be depended on to be mission orientated and "fit to fight".And I always pushed up against upper weight limits and scored in the middle of measured PT activities.

I originally asked where is the evidence we can't fight? It only makes sense that this should be the overriding factor determining the physical fitness standards of the Air Force. And in an Air Force where our leaders can't properly safeguard nuclear weapons, where they can't properly procure replacements for our worn out aircraft, and where they are willing to trade hard working and dedicated Airmen for another Predator, maybe McKinley and everyone else should worry about those needs rather then if an Airman can do the 1.5 mile run under 10 minutes!

My previous Shirt got a bronze star for dragging a fat, unfit Airman out of an ambush in Iraq because he couldn't keep up with the rest of the troops.

[weazlefuzion]

You had me until this last statement, as it opens the door for lots of questions: You're fine with a smoker who's in great shape? What about a marathoner who eats nothing but fast food breakfast/lunch/dinner? How about heavy drinkers that are fitness fanatics? What about a totally cut weightlifter who engages in unprotected sex with multiple partners? What about a married couple who are very fit, but are swingers? You will most likely pay later for all of those people, no matter what shape they're in.

And to head off any questions, all five of the examples from above are people I've worked with in my career.

No, I have the very same problem with every last one of them. However, this thread is talking about revamping the PT test specifically, not the encompassing "Fit To Fight" concept.

We have cessation classes for smokers (the military-wide morale and recruiting hit would be enormous if they simply banned it), AA for drinkers, annual STD briefings for the sexually liberal. As for swingers, there's nothing morally wrong with it if it's protected sex other than the moral aspect of disobeying military law (this is not a religious argument, so "morally" is similar to "pragmatically" in this statement).

[chairpower]

Let's be honest, the Air Force doesn't actually want to "fix" the PT program. They would have to get rid of the 12% of obese Airmen, and they simply cannot afford to do that at this time. Instead, we'll pretend like we care but completely avoid any sort of punishment for being overweight or failing a PT test.

Case in point, I have a troop who has failed the past 6 PT tests he's taken. His punishment? Every day he gets an hour and a half to go to the gym, and twice a day on Tuesdays and Thursdays. I dont even get that, and I'm in SHAPE! The way I see it, the best way for me to get fit is to fail my PT test repeatedly. There you have it, AF... instead of Fit to Fight, your new program is Fit to Fail.

[technomage1]

Back when the new test was first implemented (and didn't count) I failed a fit test. I was on profile and had to take the bike test - and since I am tall of course hosed the waist measurement too. Long story short, I had to attend classes on weight management and do extra PT. The classes were during the duty day, but the extra PT was at 0500.

I got sick of this fast, tore up my profile, retested as a runner and passed easily (then limped around for another couple of months because I dorked up my injury again). But I do agree that the extra PT should not be during duty time.

[S97Batess]

My previous Shirt got a bronze star for dragging a fat, unfit Airman out of an ambush in Iraq because he couldn't keep up with the rest of the troops.

And one of my "fat, unfit" fellow airman got the expert field medical badge for saving the life of a fully combat loaded soldier that three 'fit to fight' airmen could not pick up and get on the chopper.....this was under fire.....the only reward was to have to take a PT test upon return from the sandbox......and the EFMB....he was put in for the star but since he was 'fat and unfit' at home, no go.

But I do know that the important thing is that combat soldier is still alive and well today due to that fat and unfit medic....

Maybe that should have counted for a PT score over 75 since that is that standard for 'fit to fight' and saving a life while under fire should be considered equal to fit to fight.:rolleyes:

[S97Batess]

Back when the new test was first implemented (and didn't count) I failed a fit test. I was on profile and had to take the bike test - and since I am tall of course hosed the waist measurement too. Long story short, I had to attend classes on weight management and do extra PT. The classes were during the duty day, but the extra PT was at 0500.

I got sick of this fast, tore up my profile, retested as a runner and passed easily (then limped around for another couple of months because I dorked up my injury again). But I do agree that the extra PT should not be during duty time.


I know quite a few airmen who have done this. Sure helps keep them fit to fight and ready to deploy.:confused:

[Rastaman]

Does anyone see the irony in having a "Fit to Fight" program when 90% of the AF has a non-combat job?

[S97Batess]

Does anyone see the irony in having a "Fit to Fight" program when 90% of the AF has a non-combat job?

Ha, ha, ha.......good one.....makes way too much sense though.:tongue:

[CrustySMSgt]

Does anyone see the irony in having a "Fit to Fight" program when 90% of the AF has a non-combat job?

You've obviously never seen the line at the lunch buffet at the club or Starbucks in the morning... Talk about a fight! :D

[Rastaman]

You've obviously never seen the line at the lunch buffet at the club or Starbucks in the morning... Talk about a fight! :D

LOL!!! Bring on the hand-to-hand combat training! ;)

[BigBaze]

You've obviously never seen the line at the lunch buffet at the club or Starbucks in the morning... Talk about a fight! :D


Not like the fights I saw at the malls Friday morning (Black Friday) I was out taking my little brother shopping for a football and gear, anyone got any BX madness stories?:)

[arthur1971]

I was in the Navy and we did a PT Test twice a year. I joined the Air Force and I did hear people complain about the PT Program now and it's easy. Some of the airman that I have seen in my few years in the Air Foce that I am surprise that they pass their PT Tests. I don't know how some of thme pass the PT test. I thought the Air Force is supposed to be a Fit to Fight Force. Maybe the Air Force should look into maybe once a quarter PT Test and have them done by Flights.

[CrustySMSgt]

Not like the fights I saw at the malls Friday morning (Black Friday) I was out taking my little brother shopping for a football and gear, anyone got any BX madness stories?:)

I avoided the BX... figured there was nothing there I needed that bad. My ex wants to send me the money to get my daughter a laptop, and they had one on sale for $100 off... but it wasn't worth $100 of her money for me to get up that early! :D

[BigBaze]

LOL!!! Bring on the hand-to-hand combat training! ;)


I am afraid the best we can do is the hand to hand training CBT:)

[TSarge]

What the Air Force needs to do is determine if we are to place fitness or maintenance first, that's all. I do want someone that works in my section to be fit and healthy, but I also want them know how to perform there job. If we place fitness first we need to shut all ops down and do PT as a whole unit like mentioned before, it's the only way. When the AFI states, PT time may be given during duty hours, do you really think being a maintainer we are given that time? No, not just no, but hell no! We as maintainers, are the AIR FORCE. If you have nothing to do with the aircraft on your base, then I'm sorry you're in the Chair Force, I will give exception to SFS. Those poor boys have it rough as well. Most of the people in the Chair Force have no idea what extremes we go to to launch an aircraft to fly that sortie and have absolutely nothing to show for it. Like the luxuary of heat in the winter, or A/C in the summer. Leadership needs to listen and understand the aircraft maintainer IS the Air Force. Without us, there is no reason to be here. Work with us and listen to our needs if you really want to solve this PT problem. Believe me we want to go work out and enjoy the Air Force just as much as the next guy, but when you force 12 hour shifts and then we have to do "self-improvement" and "volunteer work" and now pass our PT test, now possibly more than once a year. You're going to see alot of maintainers jump ship. Why? Becuase it's too much to handle, especially for us that have families. My wife and kid barely get to see me as it is. I work those long hours and then I need to sleep, so maybe what 4-5 hours a day if they're lucky? Then you wonder about the divorce rate...

[BRUWIN]

We as maintainers, are the AIR FORCE. If you have nothing to do with the aircraft on your base, then I'm sorry you're in the Chair Force, I will give exception to SFS.

Funny how you guys seem to have plenty of time to tell us this over and over on this board. Monkeys could do what you guys do. Is it our problem you guys aren't efficient time managers?

[TSarge]

I highly doubt a monkey could do my job. My AFSC is Sheet Metal. So basicly I design, and fabricate repairs for the aircraft to keep them structurally sound and balanced. So if you can find a monkey that can do simple engineering math, then perform what I just planned on paper into and actual product, then yes they can do my job. Good luck finding that monkey. And time management isn't the problem, it's leaderships inability to utilize it's resources properly, and jamming too much on the table. If you can fix something in 4 hours but needs to be done in 2, how is that going to work?

[Shrike]

What the Air Force needs to do is determine if we are to place fitness or maintenance first, that's all. I do want someone that works in my section to be fit and healthy, but I also want them know how to perform there job. If we place fitness first we need to shut all ops down and do PT as a whole unit like mentioned before, it's the only way. When the AFI states, PT time may be given during duty hours, do you really think being a maintainer we are given that time? No, not just no, but hell no! We as maintainers, are the AIR FORCE. If you have nothing to do with the aircraft on your base, then I'm sorry you're in the Chair Force, I will give exception to SFS. Those poor boys have it rough as well. Most of the people in the Chair Force have no idea what extremes we go to to launch an aircraft to fly that sortie and have absolutely nothing to show for it. Like the luxuary of heat in the winter, or A/C in the summer. Leadership needs to listen and understand the aircraft maintainer IS the Air Force. Without us, there is no reason to be here. Work with us and listen to our needs if you really want to solve this PT problem. Believe me we want to go work out and enjoy the Air Force just as much as the next guy, but when you force 12 hour shifts and then we have to do "self-improvement" and "volunteer work" and now pass our PT test, now possibly more than once a year. You're going to see alot of maintainers jump ship. Why? Becuase it's too much to handle, especially for us that have families. My wife and kid barely get to see me as it is. I work those long hours and then I need to sleep, so maybe what 4-5 hours a day if they're lucky? Then you wonder about the divorce rate...

"You know what I'm going to get you next Christmas, Mom? A big wooden cross, so that every time you feel unappreciated for your sacrifices, you can climb on up and nail yourself to it. " - Lloyd, from The Ref

[BRUWIN]

My AFSC is Sheet Metal.

Yeah...screw puller. I know what you do

[TSarge]

Yeah...screw puller. I know what you do

I do nothing with screw pulling except get the stuck ones out. You must come from a F-16 base. You do not know what maintenance is.

[BRUWIN]

I do nothing with screw pulling except get the stuck ones out. You must come from a F-16 base. You do not know what maintenance is.


I know what maintenance is...I did it for 16 years. Like you said...You guys pull stuck screws. And before you spout off about how hard you work and how any other career field can be considered "Chair Force", I have over 60 troops on 12 hour shifts as we speak....straight through the weekend, every weekend. Why? because I have 1/3 of my enlisted forward deployed at six months a pop, dotted around Iraq and Afganistan at small outposts, working closely with the Army, doing things you only read about. They are working 14-16 hours a day and taking fire at times while your boys are back at Balad and Bagram playing dominoes. Yeah....we are the Chairforce.

I went into work last night at 10:00pm to see how the troops were doing....funny when I drove by the C-130 flightline there wasn't a maintenance troop to be seen. It was a Saturday night, I knew where I could find maintenance troops and it wasn't on the flightline.

[VFFSSGT]

We as maintainers, are the AIR FORCE. If you have nothing to do with the aircraft on your base, then I'm sorry you're in the Chair Force, I will give exception to SFS.

You are the Air Force, uh? Well, lets see how beneficial that big paper weight is you work on when the comms to get it in and out of the air go down and aren't fixed since we aren't part of the Air Force. And, even if you get if off the ground without pilots since they aren't part of the Air Force either...good luck laying bombs effectively without our comms. Dang it, there goes your health care, although I'm not sure its a big lost... :rolleyes: What's that, you aren't getting your paycheck anymore...I guess DFAS isn't part of us either, uh? Is that big paper weight on fire? I'm sorry, I am sure since you are the Air Force you can extinguish it. Well look a there, we can't get supplies and ammo to you anymore either since logistics is not part of the Air Force.

While Aircraft maintainers do have it rougher than some, you aren't all that so stop thinking you are. Don't hate because you got stuck with that job... While I will agree there are cushy jobs in the Air Force, it doesn't mean no one does real work besides aircraft maintainers. There are also those that have cushy jobs and you still can't get them to do their job, they spend more time trying to get out of doing work. On a side not, I have known some F-16 maintainers and I am fairly sure they know what maintenance is.

Basically, if you are going to want people to listen to your concerns...don't come off as you are something special because you are an Aircraft Maintainer and shun everyone else. Everyone believes their job is special and they are the "thing." We can argue all day over who has the bigger ego or we can recognize reality and move forward with progress.

[VFFSSGT]

I am afraid the best we can do is the hand to hand training CBT:)

We laugh, but it wouldn't surprise me... We already have weapons CBT's, although not mandatory...yet... I am betting they will be before much longer since we only get JITT now.

[S97Batess]

"Dang it, there goes your health care, although I'm not sure its a big lost... :rolleyes:"


Hey...hey....hey.....ha ha ha.....although it isn't a big loss until you need it......

Funny though.....

[SecurityForces695]

What does being a part of a career field have to do with upholding standards of fitness? Some jobs rely on how fit you are more than others, but the bottom line is 75.5 and above.

[BRUWIN]

What does being a part of a career field have to do with upholding standards of fitness? .

I don't know...talk to the maintennce folks. We get a few of them on the board that complain 24/7 about how they can't get 3-5 hours per week of duty time to do PT. My troops have the same issue but that complaint don't fly where I work and my troops seem to figure it out.

[VFFSSGT]

I don't know...talk to the maintennce folks. We get a few of them on the board that complain 24/7 about how they can't get 3-5 hours per week of duty time to do PT. My troops have the same issue but that complaint don't fly where I work and my troops seem to figure it out.


Hey, hey; be careful with that term maintenance folks as a general characterization...it's aircraft maintenance folks...there is maintenance folks out there who maintain equipment other than an aircraft. :D

[BRUWIN]

Hey, hey; be careful with that term maintenance folks as a general characterization...it's aircraft maintenance folks...there is maintenance folks out there who maintain equipment other than an aircraft. :D


Sheet metal is one of them...they don't just fix aircraft. Every once in awhile I used to go there to get a quick tool or bracket made so we could fix an aircraft component. Most of the time they would send us away claiming we needed additional paperwork (local manufacture) before they could authorize shutting off the Jerry Springer show and get to work making it.

[VFFSSGT]

Well, he associated himself with aircraft maintenance and there have been others that associated themselves with aircraft maintenance that complained about PT. Maybe its just the aircraft maintainer wanna bee's then...? :D

[BRUWIN]

Well, he associated himself with aircraft maintenance and there have been others that associated themselves with aircraft maintenance that complained about PT. Maybe its just the aircraft maintainer wanna bee's then...? :D

It reminds me of a story. Back in Desert Storm we took our entire wing of F-111Fs down to Saudi. We left a few maintainers back at Lakenheath...mostly EMS folks doing phased inspections. Anyways....of course they still need support and an EMS sheet metal tech was left back at homestation to help. He never came to Saudi. After the war ended in he took leave. We were still down in Saudi..but this guy went on his local TV station and claimed he fought the war and ducked Scuds down in Saudi. Even us guys who were in Saudi didn't duck scuds as we were at a location that was out of scud range. Anyways...more of the the local news media called Lakenheath and enquired more about our hero and he was then promptly kicked out of the Air Force once he returned from leave. They wanted him gone quick before we all got home.

[horse]

And one of my "fat, unfit" fellow airman got the expert field medical badge for saving the life of a fully combat loaded soldier that three 'fit to fight' airmen could not pick up and get on the chopper.....this was under fire.....the only reward was to have to take a PT test upon return from the sandbox......and the EFMB....he was put in for the star but since he was 'fat and unfit' at home, no go.

But I do know that the important thing is that combat soldier is still alive and well today due to that fat and unfit medic....

Maybe that should have counted for a PT score over 75 since that is that standard for 'fit to fight' and saving a life while under fire should be considered equal to fit to fight.:rolleyes:

Good post. For every fat bastard who is embarrassing the AF, there is skinny fart who is embarrassing the AF.

[BigBaze]

We laugh, but it wouldn't surprise me... We already have weapons CBT's, although not mandatory...yet... I am betting they will be before much longer since we only get JITT now.


If an enemy performs a frontal attack, perform a:

a. hammer fist
b. backhand
c. donkey punch
d. knuckle sandwich

[VFFSSGT]

If an enemy performs a frontal attack, perform a:

a. hammer fist
b. backhand
c. donkey punch
d. knuckle sandwich

Now all we need are "Army-proof" pictures/diagrams of such techniques. They could even be placed in the quick reference section of the Airman's Manual... for quick reference during a physical altercation....:rolleyes:

[BigBaze]

Now all we need are "Army-proof" pictures/diagrams of such techniques. They could even be placed in the quick reference section of the Airman's Manual... for quick reference during a physical altercation....:rolleyes:


all of course to be performed while wearing an approved reflective belt and whistle..:)

[TSarge]

Sheet metal is one of them...they don't just fix aircraft. Every once in awhile I used to go there to get a quick tool or bracket made so we could fix an aircraft component. Most of the time they would send us away claiming we needed additional paperwork (local manufacture) before they could authorize shutting off the Jerry Springer show and get to work making it.

That's usually because there is flight line people that want to jerry rig everyting and don't understand the characteristic of metal, and structural engineering. These people are dangerous to the AF and cause planes to crash. You just don't make something without blueprints and tech data. You use certain types and thickness of metal and rivets for certain parts of the plane. That's why we have these things called T.O.s... You know those books written by the aircraft engineers and endorsed by the SecAF.

[omertalifestyle]

Back to the subject at hand. Fitness is important, but something has to be changed to make the chain of command accountable for fitness. The only thing that makes it difficult for people to head to the gym in the AMXS career fields is the flying schedule..thats what makes us different from the Army and Marines. The flying schedule is so broad and constantly changing that it makes it difficult for anything to be planned outside of it. On top of that, we fly aging aircraft that take time to get fixed, and the demands of flying is making that sortie to fix rate increase every year

Problem is that while everyone else is forced to become leaner, pilot training is ramping up every year. So to facilitate this change in PT we have to decrease the amount of flying we do to make it so that every Airmen has a fair shot at making it to PT at least 3 days a week.

So why can't we get fitness equipment to use in each AMU or have a dedicated building for flightline maintainers to utilize for fitness that is opened 24 hours. Get rid of the snackbars and flightline kitchens that serve nothing but fatty fried foods, chips, candy, soda. I'm not saying add the option for healthy food, I'm saying make that the only option. Actual foods that may take a bit longer to cook, but with adequate preparation give a healthy food for everyone to enjoy.

[weazlefuzion]

Back to the subject at hand. Fitness is important, but something has to be changed to make the chain of command accountable for fitness. The only thing that makes it difficult for people to head to the gym in the AMXS career fields is the flying schedule..thats what makes us different from the Army and Marines. The flying schedule is so broad and constantly changing that it makes it difficult for anything to be planned outside of it. On top of that, we fly aging aircraft that take time to get fixed, and the demands of flying is making that sortie to fix rate increase every year

Problem is that while everyone else is forced to become leaner, pilot training is ramping up every year. So to facilitate this change in PT we have to decrease the amount of flying we do to make it so that every Airmen has a fair shot at making it to PT at least 3 days a week.

So why can't we get fitness equipment to use in each AMU or have a dedicated building for flightline maintainers to utilize for fitness that is opened 24 hours. Get rid of the snackbars and flightline kitchens that serve nothing but fatty fried foods, chips, candy, soda. I'm not saying add the option for healthy food, I'm saying make that the only option. Actual foods that may take a bit longer to cook, but with adequate preparation give a healthy food for everyone to enjoy.

While I agree that it would suck to work 14 hours and then head to the gym, I think much of that falls back on several other threads in the forums here. Discipline. Yes, it sucks. No, it isn't fair. Does that mean that this is no longer the military? If I was in a maintainer's position (or any other job that works long hours), I'd probably bitch and whine all day about having to do PT 3x a week too, but you know what, I wouldn't have a choice if my CoC didn't give me one. I would have to simply muster some integrity (think I may have heard that word somewhere) and get my ass to the gym.

Of course we have a volunteer military, and we're much better for it, but do you really think that requiring PT a few times a week for all personnel would hamper recruiting efforts? Absolutely not, and the people that don't join because of that are the ones we don't want around to begin with. The Air Force is leading the way in trading military excellence and discipline for "quality of life". Going back to basics? Good. PT gear is a pretty basic item.

[fufu]

There are numerous problems with the current test. In my opinion, there doesn't need to be a point value assigned to ANY of it. The military is about minimum standards, you have to work at least 6-3 or 7-4. You have minimum dress and appearance standards.

Why not have minimum fitness standards?
Male Under 25?
50 pushups
50 sit ups
13 minute run time

Adjust as needed for age... Let the commanders give out passes for the fastest run or most pushups.

I have major beef with the difference in point value from men and women concerning the run time. I understand the need for more points awarded regarding pushups/situps. But, there is no reason a women can't ran as fast as me. For a 13 minute run time, there is a 6 point advantage for the women. That is ridiculous.

As for the waist measurement, measure us but don't assign a point value. If you are over 40, go to the HAWC for the rest of us, leave us alone.

The whole system is overthought and stupid. Just keep it simple...pass/fail based on minimum standards.

Hell, we don't even have 24 hour gym access. Work mids? The gym closes at 10pm and reopens at 430. Not much of a window to work out with those crappy hours.

[CrustySMSgt]

I have major beef with the difference in point value from men and women concerning the run time. I understand the need for more points awarded regarding pushups/situps. But, there is no reason a women can't ran as fast as me. For a 13 minute run time, there is a 6 point advantage for the women. That is ridiculous.


Welcome to the board.

Just for S&G I took the time to look up the run times from the 2008 Olympics... to see what the difference in run times are for that level of athelete... to see if there really is that big a difference in the capabilities of men & women.

in the 5000m final, the time difference for the top 10 finishers was between 15:41 - 15:49. For the men, the difference was 12:57 (OR) - to 13:28 for the top 10 finishers. So, given the nearly 3 mnute time difference in finish times for this class of athelete, I don't think it is too hard to grasp that the "average jane" is not capable, as a rule, of running as fast as the "average joe."

[technomage1]

The only advantage women have when running is on ulta longs. Women have a higher body fat % and lower metabolism than men, and can last at 100 miles+ better.

But for the fit test, men will be, on average, faster.

[Your_Name_Here]

Welcome to the board.

Just for S&G I took the time to look up the run times from the 2008 Olympics... to see what the difference in run times are for that level of athelete... to see if there really is that big a difference in the capabilities of men & women.

in the 5000m final, the time difference for the top 10 finishers was between 15:41 - 15:49. For the men, the difference was 12:57 (OR) - to 13:28 for the top 10 finishers. So, given the nearly 3 mnute time difference in finish times for this class of athelete, I don't think it is too hard to grasp that the "average jane" is not capable, as a rule, of running as fast as the "average joe."

The only advantage women have when running is on ulta longs. Women have a higher body fat % and lower metabolism than men, and can last at 100 miles+ better.

But for the fit test, men will be, on average, faster.

Seen the PT-related thread(s) in the USMC section? They are practically besides themselves with the whole "it's not fair that women score differently from men" thing. Some--not all by any means--but some, who post there will just not seem to ever be able to grasp the concept that men and women have important differences in physiological capabilities, as your examples have borne out.

[CrustySMSgt]

but some, who post there will just not seem to ever be able to grasp the concept that men and women have important differences in physiological capabilities, as your examples have borne out.

Maybe their parents never had "that talk" with them! :D

[fufu]

in the 5000m final, the time difference for the top 10 finishers was between 15:41 - 15:49. For the men, the difference was 12:57 (OR) - to 13:28 for the top 10 finishers. So, given the nearly 3 mnute time difference in finish times for this class of athelete, I don't think it is too hard to grasp that the "average jane" is not capable, as a rule, of running as fast as the "average joe."


Can't argue with that info.

[proud2bblue]

Crusty,
You are a researching machine!!! :D So much whining about the PT test. Look at the other services, ours is in line and on par. Be careful what you ask for, we just might get it. Folks want to try and turn the AF in the Army or Marines. We already have a progam for that, its called Blue to Green. :tongue:

[technomage1]

I think that a lot of the debate concerning the PT has to do with expectations. What is the PT designed to measure? To me, it is designed to measure individual fitness. The biological differences between men and women, as well as the difference between a 40 year old a a 20 year old, are the reason for the differing standards. A 20 year old man who does the same as a 40 year old woman will be in less shape than she would be. She'd be in great shape to crank out 40 pushups in a minute, he wouldn't be. That's just biological fact.

A different way of looking at the test is as a minimum standard that everyone must meet. But I think that the current test is better - this encourages individual fitness to the best of their potential, while ensuring minimum standards that everyone must meet.

[usaf_satwide]

I too don't agree with the waist measurement. My last PT test was:

9:56 / 45.00 | 34.00" / 25.00 | 65 / 10.00 | 55 / 10.00 | 90.00 Excellent

I have to run a 9:56 and max out everything else to get a barely 90, where as if I was two inches smaller I could run a 11:36 and get a 90.50.

And BMI is a joke...It says I'm in the obesity category and I don't very much fat at all.

My PT test before that I had a waist measurement of 35, which the difference between 34 and 35" is 2.5 points! If I had a 36" or more waist it would be a decrease of only .30 points each inch. So, I could have a 40" waist and only loose 2.5 points.

Air Force please do away with the waist measurement and BMI caclulation. If a person can run under 10 min, they should be in the excellent category. I don't want to be in the Air Force with a bunch of small Airmen that can't lift a 100+ pound box.

[weazlefuzion]

There are numerous problems with the current test. In my opinion, there doesn't need to be a point value assigned to ANY of it. The military is about minimum standards, you have to work at least 6-3 or 7-4. You have minimum dress and appearance standards.

Why not have minimum fitness standards?
Male Under 25?
50 pushups
50 sit ups
13 minute run time

Adjust as needed for age... Let the commanders give out passes for the fastest run or most pushups.

I have major beef with the difference in point value from men and women concerning the run time. I understand the need for more points awarded regarding pushups/situps. But, there is no reason a women can't ran as fast as me. For a 13 minute run time, there is a 6 point advantage for the women. That is ridiculous.

As for the waist measurement, measure us but don't assign a point value. If you are over 40, go to the HAWC for the rest of us, leave us alone.

The whole system is overthought and stupid. Just keep it simple...pass/fail based on minimum standards.

Hell, we don't even have 24 hour gym access. Work mids? The gym closes at 10pm and reopens at 430. Not much of a window to work out with those crappy hours.

While the minimum standard idea is good, in theory, it presents a problem. We already have problems with people only going for the bare minimum. What incentive is there for the non-athlete to improve him/herself physically? I like this point system.

However, I really like your point about the gyms. Obviously it's going to cost a little to open the gyms 24hrs, or even 22 (so they can bleach everything), but it would show that the Air Force is serious about fitness and isn't going to hold you back and blame it on the mission. If Airmen are expected to adapt and overcome (the 14hr-work-day-maintainer going to the gym) then the Air Force, as an organization, needs to do the same. Stop buying LCD TVs and replacing my blinds every 6mos and open the gym longer.

[fufu]

While the minimum standard idea is good, in theory, it presents a problem. We already have problems with people only going for the bare minimum. What incentive is there for the non-athlete to improve him/herself physically? I like this point system.

What is your issue with doing the minimum? Some folks just aren't athletes and never will be. I can't think of one person that doesn't do "just the minimum" in some aspect of their military career, whether it be fitness or otherwise.

If your shift is 7-4, do you work late everyday or leave at 4? I work with a guy that stays late constantly. He makes it look like he is working hard, I think he is a poor time manager....but thats another discussion.

I don't have a problem with people doing the minimum. Not every airman is a super troop. Some of us view the air force as a job others view it as a way of life. Some airman are single, live in the dorms and have nothing but time on their hands to spend 2 hours a day in the gym. Some of us are married with kids, have lives away from the AF, second jobs, spouses with work hours that conflict with our own, the list goes on.......

I covered the incentive to improve. Let the commanders award the fastest runner, most push ups/crunches or most improved overall. But, let some of us meet the standard and move on.

[hydroguy]

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/06/army_PT_overhaul_061408w/

granted we arent the army but even they recognize that its about more than just running....but my question is really this....what other measurement of the EPR is go or no go? nothing. in my opinion, you either meet standards or dont. there isnt "clearly exceeds" or "above average". but why only measure one portion that way?
i have 15 yrs in. many of the recruits in the last say 6 years really dont belong. i have run into "not my job" way too much. now combine that fact with the reality that for a few years, the AF gave away the NCO stripe. being fit is important but being able to perform your job seems the most important. i cant tell you how much i have to bitch at people to stay up with their training, clean the building after the shift, update recall rosters. when i was growing up, i did it. i didnt have a choice. these guys dont either but they mostly dont care.
now as for the maintenance haters....we extend our duty day to due PT and do it without a PTL. so should my leaders be marked down for not meeting the standards of 10-248. you bet ya. as with most instructions the AF picks and chooses what to follow based on the perceived hardships of doing things by the books. but what really aggravates me is the fact that offices on base are only open from 0900-1500. WTF? the PT instruction is for all of us but is only applied appropriately to a portion of us. that is amusing.
as for the fairness of the PT...it does favor skinny people. I think Evander Holyfield was in excellent shape. But if i read correctly, his BMI was 35. that system is accurate.lol...i think i read online that its a +- 10% where as the dunking method is +- 4%.
food for thought.

[S97Batess]

If an enemy performs a frontal attack, perform a:

a. hammer fist
b. backhand
c. donkey punch
d. knuckle sandwich

Of course if you were fit to fight, you could just use your M-16 (if you can find one or get one) to butt-stroke em.....or shoot em.....:rolleyes:

[Shrike]

Of course if you were fit to fight, you could just use your M-16 (if you can find one or get one) to butt-stroke em.....or shoot em.....:rolleyes:

Shoot 'em, eh? I seem to have vague memories about being trained to engage in this "shoot" activity at one time in the distant past. If I remember correctly it involves a lot of noise and smoke, right?

;)

Yep, I'm a warrior! :rolleyes:

[FEOS]

Just make the waist measurement points vary with height. Seriously...does anyone really think that a guy who's 5'2" with a 36" waist is just as lean as a guy who's 6'2" with a 36" waist?

Just another example that "common sense isn't".

[mfjdspence]

I remember when there were crusty ol' TSgt's and MSgt's laying AM-2 matting on the airfield in chem gear and body armor for hours and hours yet still had a beer belly. Now I get a bunch of 34" waiste weenies who can hardly go 30 minutes before they are puckered out for the day, and we are doing lighter stuff than before. These new guys are sucking so hard for air that their gas masks are practically glued to their faces. Doing more with less was easier when you had a beer belly. I keep trying to tell myself that someone world realize that they did not put athlete as one of the criterias for approval when we were recruited.