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View Full Version : There goes the nation's defense budget, down the drain again...


ElectricElvis
12-23-2008, 09:40 AM
The New York Times, December 21, 2008
Editorial: How to Pay for a 21st-Century Military


In recent weeks, this page has called for major changes in America’s armed forces: more ground forces, less reliance on the Reserves, new equipment and training to replace cold-war weapons systems and doctrines.

Money will have to be found to pay for all of this, and the Pentagon can no longer be handed a blank check, as happened throughout the Bush years.

Since 2001, basic defense spending has risen by 40 percent in real post-inflation dollars. That is not counting the huge supplemental budgets passed — with little serious review or debate — each year to pay for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Such unquestioned largess has shielded the Pentagon from any real pressure to cut unneeded weapons systems and other wasteful expenses.

As a result, there is plenty of fat in the defense budget. Here is what we think can be cut back or canceled in order to pay for new equipment and other reforms that are truly essential to keep this country safe:

End production of the Air Force’s F-22. The F-22 was designed to ensure victory in air-to-air dogfights with the kind of futuristic fighters that the Soviet Union did not last long enough to build. The Air Force should instead rely on its version of the new high-performance F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, which comes into production in 2012 and like the F-22 uses stealth technology to elude enemy radar.

Until then, it can use upgraded versions of the F-16, which can outperform anything now flown by any potential foe. The F-35 will provide a still larger margin of superiority. The net annual savings: about $3 billion.

Cancel the DDG-1000 Zumwalt class destroyer. This is a stealthy blue water combat ship designed to fight the kind of midocean battles no other nation is preparing to wage. The Navy can rely on the existing DDG-51 Arleigh Burke class destroyer, a powerful, well-armed ship that incorporates the advanced Aegis combat system for tracking and destroying multiple air, ship and submarine targets. The Navy has sharply cut back the number of Zumwalts on order from 32 to two.

Cutting the last two could save more than $3 billion a year that should be used to buy more of the littoral combat ships that are really needed. Those ships can move quickly in shallow offshore waters and provide helicopter and other close-in support for far more likely ground combat operations.

Halt production of the Virginia class sub. Ten of these unneeded attack submarines — modeled on the cold-war-era Seawolf, whose mission was to counter Soviet attack and nuclear launch submarines — have already been built. The program is little more than a public works project to keep the Newport News, Va., and Groton, Conn., naval shipyards in business.

The Navy can extend the operating lives of the existing fleet of Los Angeles class fast-attack nuclear submarines, which can capably perform all needed post-cold-war missions — from launching cruise missiles to countering China’s expanding but technologically inferior submarine fleet. Net savings: $2.5 billion.

Pull the plug on the Marine Corps’s V-22 Osprey. After 25 years of trying, this futuristic and unnecessary vertical takeoff and landing aircraft has yet to prove reliable or safe. The 80 already built are more than enough. Instead of adding 400 more, the Marine Corps should buy more of the proven H-92 and CH-53 helicopters. Net savings: $2 billion to 2.5 billion.

Halt premature deployment of missile defense. The Pentagon wants to spend roughly $9 billion on ballistic missile defense next year. That includes money to deploy additional interceptors in Alaska and build new installations in central Europe. After spending some $150 billion over the past 25 years, the Pentagon has yet to come up with a national missile defense system reliable enough to provide real security. The existing technology can be easily fooled by launching cheap metal decoys along with an incoming warhead.

We do not minimize the danger from ballistic missiles. We agree there should be continued testing and research on more feasible approaches. Since the most likely threat would come from Iran or North Korea, there should be serious discussions with the Russians about a possible joint missile defense program. (We know the system poses no threat to Russia, but it is time to take away the excuse.) A research program would cost about $5 billion annually, for a net savings of nearly $5 billion.

Negotiate deep cuts in nuclear weapons. Under the 2002 Moscow Treaty, the United States and Russia committed to reduce their strategic nuclear weapons to between 1,700 and 2,200 each by 2012. There has been no discussion of any further cuts. A successor treaty should have significantly lower limits — between 1,000 and 1,400, with a commitment to go lower.

President-elect Barack Obama should also take all ballistic missiles off hair-trigger alert and commit to reducing the nation’s absurdly large stock of backup warheads. These steps will make the world safer. It will give Mr. Obama a lot more credibility to press others to rein in their nuclear ambitions.

It is hard to say just how much money would be saved with these reductions, but in the long term, the amount would certainly be considerable.

Trim the active-duty Navy and Air Force. The United States enjoys total dominance of the world’s seas and skies and will for many years to come. The Army and the Marines have proved too small for the demands of simultaneous ground wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. They are the forces most likely to be called on in future interventions against terrorist groups or to rescue failing states. Reducing the Navy by one carrier group and the Air Force by two air wings would save about $5 billion a year.

Making these cuts will not be politically easy. The services are already talking up remote future threats (most involving a hostile China armed to the teeth with submarines and space-age weapons). Military contractors invoke a different kind of threat: hundreds of thousands of layoffs in a recession-weakened economy. We are all for saving and creating jobs, but not at the cost of diverting finite defense dollars from real and pressing needs — or new programs that will create new jobs.

The cuts above could save $20 billion to $25 billion a year, which could be better used as follows:

Increase the size of the ground force. The current buildup of the Army and the Marine Corps will cost more than $100 billion over the next six years. Trimming the size of the Navy and Air Force, deferring the deployment of unready missile defenses and canceling the Osprey will pay for much of that.

Pay for the Navy’s needed littoral combat ships. These ships, which operate in shallow waters to support ground combat, cost about $600 million each. Canceling the DDG-1000 destroyer (more than $3 billion per ship) and the Virginia class submarine (more than $2 billion each) will help provide that needed money.

Resupply the National Guard and the Reserves. At the present rate for replacing weapons left behind or destroyed in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Guard will still be more than 20 percent short of what it needs in 2013. Canceling the F-22 will provide enough money to do better than that years sooner.

Some of these changes would have been made already if the Pentagon procurement system were more responsive to present needs and less captive to service and industry lobbyists. Defense Secretary Robert Gates complains about what he calls “next war-itis,” the system’s built-in preference for what might be needed in potential future wars over what is clearly needed now. Privately, most of the service chiefs concede that their budgets, which have seen little discipline since 9/11, have some margin for cuts.

Congress will need to develop a lot more realism and restraint. Lobbyists pushing costly and unneeded weapons systems find ready allies in lawmakers looking to create or protect federally financed jobs in their districts. Big contractors like Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon and General Dynamics have become masters at spreading those jobs around to assemble broad Congressional voting blocs. Work on the F-22 has been parceled out to subcontractors in 44 states.

Mr. Gates, who will stay on, must make reforming the procurement system a priority. The era of unlimited budgets is over, and Mr. Gates needs to make tough calls and stick to them. Congress must give more weight to the nation’s overall needs and less to parochial interests.

Fixing the Pentagon’s procurement process will require the full backing of Mr. Obama. We believe American taxpayers are eager to support changes that would make the country more secure while making more effective use of their money.

Copyright 2008 The New York Times Company

Battleshort
12-23-2008, 10:03 AM
The NYT article is soooo wrong in many ways. More shoddy work by the "Grey Lady". Time to euthanize her.

http://www.navytimes.com/news/2008/12/navy_timespiece_122208w/

ElectricElvis
12-23-2008, 10:40 AM
Frankly, I find this kind of article disturbing to say the least. I’m going to go out on a limb here, and just put this out there. I know it’s long, and some of you will hate my opinion, but that’s your right. Just do me a favor, if you’re going to make a rebuttal, make it a logical one and not an emotional response.

Firstly, that anyone thinks that they can just dispose of a carrier strike group because they seem to perceive an odd number as meaning we have extra is erroneous logic. We're probably actually about two carriers short of what we need to maintain our fleets and be standing at the ready when America needs us. This was a particular problem with the recent fires aboard the carrier Washington, bound for Japan. We had to leave the Kitty Hawk overseas for two additional months to cover that short-fall, when she was already 20 years past when she should have been retired due to age related maintenance costs and deteriorating safety and reliability; she has repeatedly had to be TOWED back into port.

I also hear I'm supposed to do my job and the jobs of three other personnel, in spite of the fact that my ship is already running on essentially a skeleton crew and I’m already doing two full-time jobs. We are an aircraft carrier, and we do not have 5000 crew, even when deployed with our full complement; we have about 3000. We are already spread so thin on manning that only one third (or less) of us can be home on leave for Christmas at one time. Furthermore, is the answer to "bring our troops home" going to be "overwork our troops with low manning so they can neither deploy to defend us, nor come home to visit"? This kind of thinking (to my mind) is indicative of an irrational and incomplete thought process. The potential cause and effect chain is obviously not being considered here.

As for the "thousands of warplanes", it should be mentioned that at any time at least half of those planes are undergoing maintenance to avert malfunction (i.e., the marine plane that crashed in San Diego early December, killing four civilians), which as they age becomes more likely. As was recently featured in the Navy Times, we are doing everything we can to get maximum usage out of our planes while still keeping them as safe as possible. It should also be noted that when a plane does malfunction, everyone who was in any way connected with the maintenance or operation of that plane is drug tested and investigated thoroughly for any potential wrong-doing or violation of procedure.

I do agree with the recommendation for canceling the Air Force’s planes in favor of the most reliable models already available, and I do agree that experimental planes should have the bugs worked out BEFORE we kick them into production. HOWEVER, those newer models ARE being designed for a reason. Reason being, we found problems with the old ones that changes in the engineering of the plane would fix, such as the F-14’s tendency to stall in jet-wash being corrected by re-engineering the engines for the F-18. The military is a very large organization, and real changes like these don’t happen to this kind of static organization unless there is a reason for them.

I understand that many feel we need more shallow water vessels for patrol purposes. However, most of those craft are not capable of sustaining a trip across either ocean, so I must ask: How are they getting to the third world countries they are supposed to be patrolling? Focusing on only the one goal means you miss the potential downfalls of neglecting other EQUALLY IMPORTANT missions. Like maybe, the pirates that are running amuck around Africa again, and we can’t get enough vessels there to support shallow water craft to counter them?! We’re almost back to the days of the Barbary Coast, except now it’s off the coasts of Egypt and Somalia.

Additionally, I do agree that so many additional subs seem wasteful, but the truth is, that fleet is aging too. Given the amount of time it takes to complete a vessel and commission it (ten to fifteen years), the Navy is anticipating needed replacements and ordering them in advance to meet that need. The Zumwalt destroyers that would be cancelled are the new prototype destroyer the Navy threw millions of $ down a rat-hole on R and D for. The sad truth is, people are cheaper than equipment, but they’re trying it anyway; I do agree that the previous model would be more practical, but we need to order them now. This whole approach comes down to one simple truth: sea power can only be maintained by keeping the Navy functional, which means replacing ships when they get too old to use. Don’t believe me? Ask the British why they’re no longer the major sea power in the world.

Unfortunately, in the case of the missile defense systems, ours are badly out-dated. "Don't fix what isn't broke" works fine with your kitchen toaster, but when we're facing missile threats from numerous third world countries that the CURRENT systems CANNOT defend against (this is published info, therefore not OPSEC relevant) because the tech is too old and too slow, IT'S BROKE! As in it won't work when we need it IF (God forbid) such a day comes. The problem is, those third world missiles were developed by teamwork specifically to slip through our defenses, so we need a better defense. Also some have been modified to carry a compact nuclear warhead. How is a cheap metal decoy going to deter a nuclear blast? This doesn’t make sense. Also, getting rid of our nukes to try to convince others to do so is like walking up to a criminal and throwing away your weapon and saying he should too. Chances are, he'll laugh, and use his because he knows he has the advantage. The military isn't about cutting deals, it's about having a bigger stick than anybody else does. The bigger your stick, the less people mess with you. (see? nobody's messin' with China!)

The government bean counters are already hard at work cutting our throats by limiting how much we can spend on critical things like repair parts while they squander our funds on bad decisions, and now I'm hearing the press calling for the navy to "reform"?? I’ll bet they don’t have to drink their coffee out of a plastic juice glass, because the cafeteria can’t afford coffee cups. Oh, right, I forgot. Freedom of the press, even if it means we can't defend our freedom anymore, because we mistook a reporter's attempt at a thought-provoking editorial as being the gist of the public's opinion and a viable course of action.

But that's just my take on the whole mess.

Battleshort
12-23-2008, 10:46 AM
I do agree with the recommendation for canceling the Air Force’s planes in favor of the most reliable models already available, and I do agree that experimental planes should have the bugs worked out BEFORE we kick them into production.

STAND BY FOR INCOMING FIRE!!!:eek: :eek:

kojack
12-23-2008, 11:08 AM
never forget: the libs gave us the two bombings of the Trade Towers. Guess the NYT ran out of classified information to print.

Variable Wind
12-23-2008, 11:19 AM
This is probably the same type of person who said that only ground forces were necessary in Mogidishu right? Tanks and Specters were too much publicity and too costly.

Weve already had on Clinton. Lets learn from his mistakes instead of repeating them.

CommunityEditor
12-23-2008, 07:57 PM
NYT call for Navy cutbacks sparks online buzz (http://www.militarytimes.com/news/2008/12/navy_timespiece_122208w/)


A Sunday editorial in the New York Times called for drastic cutbacks in the Navy’s planned fleet, an argument that set bloggers buzzing — as did the piece’s errors of fact.

In its editorial, “How to pay for a 21st century military,” the Times recommended the Navy eliminate one carrier strike group; cancel its planned Zumwalt-class destroyers; cancel all its Virginia-class submarines; and cancel the Marine Corps’ V-22 Osprey program. Its other recommendations included eliminating the Air Force’s F-22 Raptor and ending the missile defense program, part of which includes Navy warships.

The newspaper also called for more littoral combat ships, assuming follow-on copies to the first ship, the Freedom, also will cost about $600 million. Canceling the Zumwalts and the Virginias will free up shipbuilding money for more LCSs, the Times wrote.

But the editorial mischaracterized several details about the Navy’s programs. It criticized the Zumwalt as “a stealthy blue water combat ship designed to fight the kind of mid-ocean battles no other nation is preparing to wage,” although the Zumwalt is actually designed to operate close to shore. Its radar system is designed to find targets in a cluttered littoral environment, and its Advanced Gun Systems are designed to provide fire support to Marines ashore. As designed, the ship can’t use its guns against surface targets on the ocean, and although details are hazy about the ship’s exact missile capabilities, it isn’t designed to fight other warships with surface-to-surface attacks.

The Times also reported that 10 “unneeded” Virginia-class subs have been built — actually, only five have been built; the sixth, the New Mexico, was christened Dec. 13. The newspaper said the submarine “was modeled on the Cold War-era Seawolf,” although the Virginias were designed for littoral and special operations. The editorial recommended upgrading the Navy’s existing fleet of Los Angeles-class boats to take the missions of the Virginias.

“Here’s why you don’t want journalism majors deciding things that need to be left to the engineers,” wrote the submarine blogger Bubblehead, one of several bloggers who criticized the Times’ editorial.

“Sure, you could keep the old subs operating by reducing the engineering safety margin, but I’m sure The New York Times wouldn’t write an understanding editorial if some old LA-class boat suffers a hull crack and loss of crew sometime in the 2020s,” Bubblehead wrote.

Another blogger, Neptunus Lex, wrote that he thought the Times didn’t appreciate the complexities involved with solving the Navy’s problems.

“Honestly, you could pull half a dozen people out of line at the DMV and get a more sensibly written editorial,” he wrote. “Can’t anybody here play this game?”

Ward Caroll, in a post on DefenseTech, agreed.

“It would be nice if The Grey Lady took the time to actually flesh out what’s wrong,” he wrote. “In accurately identifying problems, they might have actually assisted the Obama White House as it attempts to get the five-sided beast under control. As it is, framing things poorly is worse than not framing them at all.”

Not every commentator in the Navy blogosphere rejected the Times editorial.

In a post titled “Heart’s in the right place,” blogger Mike Burleson concurred with several of the Times’ recommendations. For example, eliminating a carrier strike group “would release 5,000-6,000 trained personnel for duties elsewhere,” he wrote. “Also, why do we need thousands of warplanes considering the enhanced capabilities precision bombs like [Joint Direct Attack Munition] give them, not to mention the rising use of pilot-less drones?”

ElectricElvis
12-24-2008, 03:57 AM
Hay! Look what's finally catching up with us! LOL

Not like I mind running ahead of the crowd, but re-posting the article? C'mon, I'm not that bad, I wouldn't sabotage a wonderfully delicious bit of editorial snarkiness just so I could set it up for me to poke holes in!

I only wish I was as devious as all that! <EG>

MitchellJD1969
12-24-2008, 11:52 AM
Im waiting for the NYTimes to call for reductions in social welfare spending, reductions in spending on arts and public television, and reductions in congresssional salaries.

Variable Wind
12-24-2008, 03:36 PM
Im waiting for the NYTimes to call for reductions in social welfare spending, reductions in spending on arts and public television, and reductions in congresssional salaries.

Dont hold your breath...you wouldnt want to get sent to a state funded hospital would you?

ElectricElvis
12-25-2008, 12:02 AM
Im waiting for the NYTimes to call for reductions in social welfare spending, reductions in spending on arts and public television, and reductions in congresssional salaries.

Won't happen. That would make sense, and we can't have that from a journalistic editorial.

Oops, is my chip showing?
(Not that I mind showing my chip, I think it's probably chocolate chip... that's my favorite.)

Unregistered
12-26-2008, 10:59 PM
This is probably the same type of person who said that only ground forces were necessary in Mogidishu right? Tanks and Specters were too much publicity and too costly.

Weve already had on Clinton. Lets learn from his mistakes instead of repeating them.


You and Kojack are regurgitating the same old, tired and false argument: blame the libs and Clinton for the incompetence and moral turpitude of the bush administration. Don't forget Carter while you are at it.
And when you find your brains somewhere in the toilet let's blame them for the economic disaster we are paying for and will keep on paying for the foreseable future.

kojack
12-27-2008, 09:20 AM
You and Kojack are regurgitating the same old, tired and false argument: blame the libs and Clinton for the incompetence and moral turpitude of the bush administration. Don't forget Carter while you are at it.
And when you find your brains somewhere in the toilet let's blame them for the economic disaster we are paying for and will keep on paying for the foreseable future.

Actually, they are a BIG part of it. The community reinvestment acts, along with strong arm extortion-like threats by people like barny franks and maxine walters(one of the stupidest, most racist women in congress), against banks for loans have played a major part in the housing bubble and consequent, collapse. It's well documented and these idiots were actually warned several years ago, about the bubble that congress was helping to create by forcing banks to essentially make loans to people who did not have the means to pay the loand back.

where's the accountability for the dem-nazis? there simply isnt any.

ElectricElvis
12-27-2008, 10:21 PM
Actually, they are a BIG part of it. The community reinvestment acts, along with strong arm extortion-like threats by people like barny franks and maxine walters(one of the stupidest, most racist women in congress), against banks for loans have played a major part in the housing bubble and consequent, collapse. It's well documented and these idiots were actually warned several years ago, about the bubble that congress was helping to create by forcing banks to essentially make loans to people who did not have the means to pay the loand back.

where's the accountability for the dem-nazis? there simply isnt any.

All politicians are created equally corrupt, it's not just the dems. I'm not seeing any grand juries convened for Rummy, either, and his actions while the SecDef were truly nothing short of criminal.

Variable Wind
12-28-2008, 11:24 AM
All politicians are created equally corrupt, it's not just the dems. I'm not seeing any grand juries convened for Rummy, either, and his actions while the SecDef were truly nothing short of criminal.

True. But I dont think Rumsfeld was a good example. Ted Stevens would be another shining example of the political elitist system at work. One of the reasons why electing a naturally elitist upstart politician was a big mistake on the part of the American people.

ElectricElvis
04-06-2009, 05:12 AM
Okay, so they managed something, anyway. All vessels in the Navy fleet just took a 20% budget cut. My command alone, an aircraft carrier, took a $33 million cut. Big ouch. We're going into a maintenance cycle, and we're going to have a really difficult time getting our materials so we can do our job because of the red tape generated by this budget cut. Sucky.

Variable Wind
04-06-2009, 10:13 AM
Okay, so they managed something, anyway. All vessels in the Navy fleet just took a 20% budget cut. My command alone, an aircraft carrier, took a $33 million cut. Big ouch. We're going into a maintenance cycle, and we're going to have a really difficult time getting our materials so we can do our job because of the red tape generated by this budget cut. Sucky.

Same old Clinton era, minus a good economy.

Skyhawk
04-06-2009, 11:33 PM
Unless Congress smacks him hard (which it might) Gates is going to get the military he wants -- one totally fashioned for the current war and nearly completely ignoring preparations for any future conflicts. It is a dangerous course littered with the dead bodies of thousands of military service members killed in initial combat before we could prepare for the war we never expected to happen.

Further, previous Sec Defs have sometimes found themselves excoriated by perpetual condemnation in the wake of making expediant decisions that had disasterous ramifications years after he left office. Gates has put his personal stamp on the military for the next 30 years. He fired everyone who stood in his way of ignoring future conflicts.

Well, it's his signature now and no one but he bears the responsibility for what happens over the next few decades. But I can point to at least three cases within the last 100 years where the Gates prescription resulted in disaster on the battlefield years before anyone expected it might.

In my view, the Sec Def should consider hard how his legacy will be written!