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View Full Version : Humvee vulnerabilities were long known


CommunityEditor
02-04-2009, 07:11 PM
WASHINGTON — Army and Marine Corps officials knew nearly a decade before the invasion of Iraq that its workhorse Humvee vehicle, was a “deathtrap” even with armor added to protect it against roadside bombs, according to an inspector general’s report.

Reports distributed throughout the Army and Marine Corps after the 1991 Persian Gulf War and the Somalia conflict in 1994 urged the development of armored vehicles to avoid the devastating effects of roadside bombs and land mines, but the Pentagon failed to act, the report says.

The Pentagon didn’t field significant numbers of Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) vehicles until 2007, more than three years after roadside bombings began to escalate in the Iraq war. The conclusions of the 1991 and 1994 reports were not included in the one-page summary of the inspector general’s findings released in December.

The inspector general’s full report was later posted on a Web site by the Center for Public Integrity, a government watchdog group.

Troops added makeshift armor to their Humvees and the Pentagon rushed kits to retrofit the vehicles with better protections after the threat from roadside bombs escalated in 2003 and 2004. Even so, retrofitted Humvees remained vulnerable to improvised explosive devices (IEDs), because of the vehicle’s “flat bottom, low weight, low ground clearance and aluminum body,” the inspector general found.

The report distributed throughout the Army and Marine Corps in 1994 found that Humvees “even with a mine-protection retrofit kit developed for Somalia remained a deathtrap in the event of an anti-tank mine detonation.”

That report called on the Army to outline what types of mine-resistant vehicles it might need, according to the inspector general.

The Pentagon didn’t develop such a fleet because championing the vehicles wasn’t seen in the ‘90s as a “good career move,” said John Pike of Globalsecurity.org. The military had spent hundreds of millions on Humvees and drawn-out ground wars were seen as a thing of the past, he said.

Geoff Morrell, Pentagon spokesman, said the full inspector general’s report had nothing new.

The recent report focused on the Marine Corps and included findings that its Combat Development Command did not create a plan to field the vehicles or obtain funding for them despite receiving an urgent request from field commanders in Iraq for MRAPs in February 2005. The Pentagon inspector general is now investigating the Army’s response to the IED threat.

Troops suffer four times more casualties from roadside bombs while riding in Humvees than MRAPs. The Marines insist they rushed the best protection available at the time — armored Humvees — to Iraq.


Article: http://www.militarytimes.com/news/2009/02/gns_humvees_020409/

grandpa mike
02-05-2009, 07:00 PM
My question is how come mraps were not built sooner and better. I was in South Africa in the early 80's and SAF had mraps then (not by that name). That was 25 years or so ago. There were very, very effective (the RATAL for example, GOOGLE may have something on it). Such gear was very well known and very effective. I do not wish to start a coversation about RSA (not even in another thread) just want to point out how other armies engaged in combat activities very simular (from a tactical perspective not political) to Iraq/Afghanistan. I saw my first one in 1981. And don't tell me about American designs being better. There are lots of tools and experiences that are not american yet have great value to us. Also my question is how come we (americans) persist in ignoring the lessons from the past? Or even the ones from a week ago? We could have spent those billions that went to todays mraps by just buying them already made (and still better than ours today)? We did it when we replaced the M1911. No I do not want to talk about what is good or bad re the 45 or 9mil (some other thread).

grandpa mike (who is gonna change his name to greatgrandpa brown boot)

PS: kudos to this blog's designers and editors. Nice job!!! I learn something new about it every time I log on.

grandpa mike
02-05-2009, 07:19 PM
Opps.. sorry I did not spell that correctly. The word is RATEL. If you are interested I found this on wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratel_IFV

Still learning!

LOAL-D
03-12-2009, 05:16 AM
Granpa, usually you have to follow the money. Who made out on the whole “replace the JEEP HUMVEE” deal? Not to mention the M-9. Congrats on the Greatgranpa!

TJMAC77SP
03-12-2009, 08:16 AM
This whole “they knew and didn’t care” argument is a bit disingenuous. The HMMWV was NEVER designed to survive roadside IEDs. The following is from another post on (http://www.militarytimes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=117601&postcount=39) this subject……………

“When IEDs started taking out our troops in Iraq everyone screamed that we weren’t protecting our troops and that whoever was responsible for buying HMMWV without armor should be held accountable. The HMMWV was brought into the US inventory in the 1980s, replacing the M151 Jeep. Anyone who has ever operated an M151 knows that there wasn’t the slightest amount of ‘armor’ on the vehicle (unless rubberized canvas is considered armor). Without the foresight as to the tactics to be utilized (and the lack of foresight is an argument for another thread) by the insurgents (I think the lack of foresight to predict an insurgency is the biggest ‘crime’ of this administration) the basic ground transportation vehicle was deployed to Iraq, the HMMWV. The rest is history.

We wanted to go to war with armored and/or mine-resistant vehicle, we did go to war with what we had, the HMMWV.”

LOAL-D
03-12-2009, 10:18 PM
Excellent points, TJMAC, my lame attempt at humor aside, the HMMWV was meant to replace the Jeep which , as you stated, wasn’t armored in the least.

TJMAC77SP
03-12-2009, 10:55 PM
Excellent points, TJMAC, my lame attempt at humor aside, the HMMWV was meant to replace the Jeep which , as you stated, wasn’t armored in the least.

Well, as usual, combat deaths were turned into a politcal footballl by those with an anti-war agenda and it burns my ass.