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AIRFORCEAGGIE
03-06-2009, 09:04 PM
Experts call for SOCOM, CIA to share personnel

By Sean D. Naylor - Staff writer
Posted : Friday Mar 6, 2009 12:28:38 EST

Special Forces soldiers and Central Intelligence Agency operatives could soon be moving seamlessly between the military and intelligence realms if Congress follows advice it received Tuesday.

The special operations community and the CIA each would benefit from a much closer integration of their personnel, Roger Carstens, a recently retired Special Forces lieutenant colonel who is a non-resident fellow at the Center for a New American Security, and Robert Martinage, senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, told a hearing of the House Armed Services Committee’s terrorism, unconventional threats and capabilities subcommittee.

Martinage, who authored an 82-page report titled “Special Operations Forces — Future Challenges and Opportunities” that was published in November, argued for “increased institutionalized cooperation between the CIA and SOCOM [i.e. U.S. Special Operations Command], including hybrid career paths, so people could go back and forth between the two.”

“Ideally, personnel should not only be able to move back and forth from CIA stations and SOF ground units, but also to compete for selected mid- and senior-level leadership positions in either organization,” Martinage said.

The Defense Department should “migrate Special Forces [units] over to the CIA,” suggested Carstens, who conducted a yearlong study of the U.S. special operations community for CNAS in 2008.

“I’m not talking about just onesies and twosies,” he said. “Why not take a Special Forces company and just plop them down in Virginia and say, ‘When you go to that company, you’re spending a three year-long tour working for the agency’?”

CIA operatives as well as members of other government agencies, could also serve on A-teams, the 12-man units also known as operational detachments-alpha, or ODAs, that are the lowest echelon of command in Special Forces, Carstens said.

Such arrangements would have multiple benefits, they said.

What Martinage termed “flexible and routine detailing of SOF personnel” to the CIA would allow special operations forces to use the agency’s Title 50 foreign intelligence authorities, which permit covert activities in which the U.S. role is hidden, he said. The same would be true if a CIA operative was serving on an A-team, according to Carstens, who noted that adding a State Department representative would give the A-team access to authorities under Title 22, the section of the U.S. Code that covers foreign relations.

Seconding a Special Forces company to the ground branch of the CIA’s Special Activities Division would give the agency “a resident capability in foreign internal defense, which is not a bad thing,” Carstens said. Foreign internal defense is the training of host-nation security forces in counterinsurgency and related techniques.

Any special operators detailed to the agency “would also benefit from being exposed to the tradecraft of National Clandestine Service personnel,” Martinage said in his prepared remarks.

Contacted by Army Times, U.S. SOCOM spokesman Ken McGraw declined to answer questions on the relationship between the CIA and special operations forces.

“The Central Intelligence Agency is one of U.S. Special Operations Command’s key interagency partners,” he wrote in an e-mail “It would be inappropriate to discuss the details of that partnership or speculate how the CIA and special operations forces may or may not integrate in the future.”

AIRFORCEAGGIE
03-06-2009, 09:07 PM
The article has some very interesting points. My only concern is that if the CIA and the Spec Ops troops are in a joint unit and they are captured, would they lose their status as armed combatants and be subject to execution as spies? I raise this because it mentions that the army troops could be utilized under Title 50 authority to conduct foreign intelligence. As such, they would be then acting as spies and not as military personnel. A similar justification was used by the Germans in WWII to execute captured British commandoes after their raid on the submarine pens.

jetteraf
03-07-2009, 02:39 AM
I'm not an expert on the Geneva Conventions, but the way I understand it, combatant status stems from being a uniformed service member. The definition of a uniform is pretty broad- for example, the British Home Guard and German Volksturm in WWII used simple armbands, and would have been covered. Attempting to hide military affiliation is what I think gets someone classified as a spy. I think if special forces personnel are wearing non-standard uniforms without signs of rank or nationality, not wearing dog-tags, growing beards, and carrying non-standard weapons, they've probably already forfeited their combatant status. Not that it matters since we haven't fought a country that adheres to the Geneva Conventions since WWII anyway.

twoZJbrass
03-07-2009, 10:40 PM
Whats the change? The CIA has been running ops hand to hand with US uniform people for decades, the give away was the khaki cap, dark glasses, face hair, loose shirts (Nam days) today, the partners look about the same...

Gunner007
03-09-2009, 04:40 PM
I too would ask about the capture issue. Another thing to consider though is FID. Say for example the XXXth SOS is doing FID training with a country like Dirkastan. Now Dirkastan routinely invites them to train their fliers and maintenance folks on the way of doing business. Would then dirkastan shy away from inviting them with the idea that they are also inviting spies into their country?

It may be that if countries expect and know outright without a doubt that we are sending potential spies along with the training unit they decide they dont want the training that bad and we lose a chance to build up a military force that could have been an asset and ally in the world?

Also if there was a new war with iran or syria and we wanted to send in an advance strike team like we did in afghanistan, would the countries we would be setting up our initial operations out of welcome us if they suspect we are sending in a SOF team of spies to their soil?

I know most countries probably plan or suspect we have spies in these operations already but typically we wouldnt. Openly saying yes they are there and yes we are sending them is a lot different i would think than the thought they might be.

The_Marley_Roger
03-09-2009, 06:10 PM
These people have been working back and forth together for decades. That is as much as I can say about that...for further non-classified data backing up what I'm saying, you can read about how this has been going on in these books.

The Killer Elite
Ghost Wars
The Nightstalkers

Unregistered
03-19-2009, 03:19 PM
Capture is whatever the capturer says it is. If they can scream "SPIES" and execute our people they will.
They do that with nuns, and tv reporters, so who cares as long as the bad guys can make political hay out of it. Doesn't matter what you call them, or who they work for.

Unregistered
03-23-2009, 11:55 AM
Capture is whatever the capturer says it is. If they can scream "SPIES" and execute our people they will.
They do that with nuns, and tv reporters, so who cares as long as the bad guys can make political hay out of it. Doesn't matter what you call them, or who they work for.

Agreed. A simple look at the COE would show that even conventional forces are currently being executed by captors. We've been dealing with that with nearly every captured US serviceman.

Steve
03-26-2009, 11:52 AM
What about all of those enemy combatants, I mean detainees? As was stated earlier, we are not at War, (I mean in Overseas Containment Operations) with anyone who follows the law or any other convention.

ANTHONYREA
03-26-2009, 12:58 PM
Just wondering if anybody has ever heard of SOG or MACV-SOG. This is not a new concept.

Citizen Soldier
03-26-2009, 01:31 PM
You do not want to merge the two for once you do, you know longer have agencies that can check and balance each other should corruption evolve or a foreign intelligence agency were to breach with a mole. The consequences of an out of control spook agency could be extremely damaging and, as in all things, can happen.

A big no-no
03-31-2009, 07:07 AM
There is only one reason why the CIA would love to be joined at the hip with SF and tha is when the blame game starts SF will be digging their own graves. SF and CIA should be separate organizations with SF taking lead and CIA providing the intel requirements (and this is what they should solely dedicated themselves too) that SF would need to conduct their missions appropriately. If this were to happen, our military leadership should monitor every mission that is being led by CIA, we can't even trust our own OGA's based on their track records, and you guys out there know exactly what I'm talking about.