Have you been in JROTC

[WILDJOKER5]

2 Air Force JROTC commanders reprimanded

The Associated Press
Posted : Wednesday Apr 1, 2009 10:37:45 EDT

TUCSON, Ariz. — Two Junior ROTC leaders have been written up for using intimidation and exercise as punishment.

The Tucson Unified School District said Master Sgt. Mark R. Wagner was the subject of an anonymous letter from a cadet at Tucson’s Catalina Magnet High School alleging physical and oral harassment.

A district spokeswoman said Wagner will get a letter of reprimand Friday.

His supervisor, retired Air Force Col. August De Rosa, got a letter of direction that offers guidance and instruction and steps on how to correct behavior.

An investigation revealed the two violated district policy by using profane language and intimidation, threats, coercion or abuse and violated Air Force JROTC policy related to physical discipline, physical activity as punishment, and harassment (improper or abusive language).

Both men declined comment.

Now I was never in JROTC, but isnt it supposed to simulate being in the military?

[Wereldboom]

2 Air Force JROTC commanders reprimanded

The Associated Press
Posted : Wednesday Apr 1, 2009 10:37:45 EDT

TUCSON, Ariz. — Two Junior ROTC leaders have been written up for using intimidation and exercise as punishment.

The Tucson Unified School District said Master Sgt. Mark R. Wagner was the subject of an anonymous letter from a cadet at Tucson’s Catalina Magnet High School alleging physical and oral harassment.

A district spokeswoman said Wagner will get a letter of reprimand Friday.

His supervisor, retired Air Force Col. August De Rosa, got a letter of direction that offers guidance and instruction and steps on how to correct behavior.

An investigation revealed the two violated district policy by using profane language and intimidation, threats, coercion or abuse and violated Air Force JROTC policy related to physical discipline, physical activity as punishment, and harassment (improper or abusive language).

Both men declined comment.

Now I was never in JROTC, but isnt it supposed to simulate being in the military?

I was in AFJROTC. And just about all JROTC units seem to get all the real "winners" - the high school's "cream of the crop" (sarcasm). My high school was no different. This is why I couldn't teach JROTC; I'd end up in the same position as Colonel De Rosa.

[LOAL-D]

I was in AFJROTC. And just about all JROTC units seem to get all the real "winners" - the high school's "cream of the crop" (sarcasm). My high school was no different. This is why I couldn't teach JROTC; I'd end up in the same position as Colonel De Rosa.


In college we called em ROTC NAZIS, but they did there own thing pretty much. I guess it's a good way to pay for school....

[Variable Wind]

I remember the ROTC guys when I was in college. They talked a big game (their MSGT was wayyyy out of shape) and acted like they were real soldier but they hadnt spent a day on AD. Seemed kind of a joke to me.

[TJMAC77SP]

College ROTC instructors are active duty personnel. High school (JROTC) instructors are retired personnel. They are supposed to maintain weight standards (one reason why I don't teach JROTC) but if the local commanding officer doesn't enforce standards you can get some duffle bags out there. My son in is in Army JROTC and I have witnessed this at some of the drill meets and I am sorry to say that the out of shape AF instructors outnumber the Army and Navy (to include USMC). Admittedly though it is still an exception rather than the rule. Funnier still is the retired rated officer who wears his flight suit to drill meets. Gotta love tools like that…………………

[TJMAC77SP]

I liked how they said "you have to salute me, Im a cadet"

I would laugh and tell them "Ive been in the Army longer than you have been in ROTC." The day they could actually wear some real metal would be the day I would salute you with anything other than my left middle finger. Im sure it isnt helping things in the college/high school environment, when the ROTC kiddies are acting like jackholes.

I thought you were speaking of a MSgt instructor. Hell, a cadet wanted you to salute him ?!?!?!?!

Yeah, that's gonna happen..................

[acesfilter]

I used to hate when they'd have those cadets basically job shadow a 2LT in active duty units; once again, we'd be expected to salute and all that. Joke!

[Variable Wind]

I used to hate when they'd have those cadets basically job shadow a 2LT in active duty units; once again, we'd be expected to salute and all that. Joke!

Shadow a 2LT? So they can do what? See exactly what they were going to screw up and how?

[Variable Wind]

I thought you were speaking of a MSgt instructor. Hell, a cadet wanted you to salute him ?!?!?!?!

Yeah, that's gonna happen..................

No the MSGT was overweight too...and he didnt exactly look like he washed his BDU's...ever.

[TJMAC77SP]

No the MSGT was overweight too...and he didnt exactly look like he washed his BDU's...ever.

He was a college ROTC instructor?

[Variable Wind]

He was a college ROTC instructor?

Yup, at least thats what I was told, I know he was affilitated and involved with them somehow. Honestly I dont know because I tried to steer clear of those guys.

[acesfilter]

Shadow a 2LT? So they can do what? See exactly what they were going to screw up and how?

He'd have been better off shadowing a private.

[Tympanoman]

This thread is extremely misleading. The issues with unprofessionalism (whether you approve of it or not) have occurred in JROTC which is completely unassociated and unrelated to ROTC. My experience in ROTC is that all the personnel, both enlisted and officer, are extremely professional. Also, I have never know any ROTC cadet who would expect an enlisted member to salute them. Just seems crazy to me.

[Mugg21B]

This thread is extremely misleading. The issues with unprofessionalism (whether you approve of it or not) have occurred in JROTC which is completely unassociated and unrelated to ROTC. My experience in ROTC is that all the personnel, both enlisted and officer, are extremely professional. Also, I have never know any ROTC cadet who would expect an enlisted member to salute them. Just seems crazy to me.

I've had the complete opposite experience, but that may be due to the school I'm at. Well, with the cadets I should say. I haven't had the chance to talk to the cadre.

I sometimes wear my PT jacket around campus, because I don't have a better windbreaker available, and have had some of them harass me about it, saying I was out of uniform. I told them to go check 670-1 (which definitely says I can wear part of the uniform with civilian attire off post), contact my commander, and get back to me.

Fortunately, the cadets in my reserve unit are more aware of their actual place (ie they're not power-tripping) and are willing to learn.

[FLAPS]

Yup, at least thats what I was told, I know he was affilitated and involved with them somehow. Honestly I dont know because I tried to steer clear of those guys.

Retired enlisted instruct JROTC, but only Officers (mostly Active Duty) instruct AFROTC at the college level. The two programs serve entirely separate purposes. In a nutshell (because I'm too lazy to look up the actual mission statements), High School JROTC helps children build charactor and guide them to become responsible adults, and Air Force ROTC, is one of three primary AF commissioning sources.

[Silver Fox]

The JROTC folks in my high school were the loser, rejects and weenies that thought the uniform would make them look cool and had millions of pictures of them in uniform by hmmwv's and such. One kid used to bring one of the drill M1 Garands to parties and show it off like he was really going to take it into combat....

We made fun of them. A lot. I have no respect for JROTC anywhere. I've never seen anything that made me look at it as a worthwhile program.

[TJMAC77SP]

Retired enlisted instruct JROTC, but only Officers (mostly Active Duty) instruct AFROTC at the college level. The two programs serve entirely separate purposes. In a nutshell (because I'm too lazy to look up the actual mission statements), High School JROTC helps children build charactor and guide them to become responsible adults, and Air Force ROTC, is one of three primary AF commissioning sources.

Both retired officers and enlisted are JROTC instructors.

[TJMAC77SP]

The JROTC folks in my high school were the loser, rejects and weenies that thought the uniform would make them look cool and had millions of pictures of them in uniform by hmmwv's and such. One kid used to bring one of the drill M1 Garands to parties and show it off like he was really going to take it into combat....

We made fun of them. A lot. I have no respect for JROTC anywhere. I've never seen anything that made me look at it as a worthwhile program.

Based on your experience at one high school? Or was your high school career longer than most people?

[WILDJOKER5]

I had to bow my head a shake it in disgust when I heard the rumor of why the enlisted instructor at my high school's JROTC resigned. Lets just say that he should have been tried for indecent relationship with a "cadet"(freshmen).

The Marine JROTC was a decent program at my school, you had your "winners" and "loosers" in the program.

I just never saw the point of what the JROTC did for most kids, I dont think 10% even joined the military out of high school.

[TJMAC77SP]

I had to bow my head a shake it in disgust when I heard the rumor of why the enlisted instructor at my high school's JROTC resigned. Lets just say that he should have been tried for indecent relationship with a "cadet"(freshmen).

The Marine JROTC was a decent program at my school, you had your "winners" and "loosers" in the program.

I just never saw the point of what the JROTC did for most kids, I dont think 10% even joined the military out of high school.

The official purpose (mission statement) of Army JROTC is to...."To Motivate Young People to Be Better Citizens"

It is not, at least officially, a recruiting tool. While its program is no where near 100% sucessful it does help some students do just that. Regardless whether they join the military or not

[HAWK6818]

I was in Air Force JROTC, and I am a current military officer. The guidance I received in JROTC was vital in shaping my character! Before, I was a "good kid" but still got into trouble, mostly because I hadn't learned respect, commitment, or dedication. I joined JROTC, and developed skills that allowed me the opportunity to go to college, excel in AFROTC, graduate with an engineering degree, and serve this great nation. If it had not been for JROTC, I would have ended up with a different life....a worse life. It's true that this program usually gets the less desirable students, and most principals use JROTC as a dumping ground for "trouble" kids. However, I have personally seen this program change lives. I applaud the instructors of JROTC programs for getting twice the headaches with the same, crappy teacher pay that all the other educators deal with.

[sigecaps]

My school required two years of JROTC for males. I'm not going to say it had a transformative effect, but eh I had a good time. Especially when we we went out for field exercises. :)

[Silver Fox]

Based on your experience at one high school? Or was your high school career longer than most people?

You're forgetting the possibility that I may have had parents who moved a hell of a lot. :rolleyes:

Army, Airforce none of 'em were worth a damn.

I have a friend who is in the military now who was in USMC JROTC, based on his behavior, I might be inclined to give them some credit, however, I think that was more the individual than the program. I still think it's a safe haven for the kids who want to do fun things but couldn't tie knots well enough to survive the boy scouts. :D

And this is generalizing I know. I'm sure there are a few good eggs and bad eggs just like anywhere, I'm just trying to emphasize that I don't think it transforms anyone. They were good people before. It's a waste.

[TJMAC77SP]

You're forgetting the possibility that I may have had parents who moved a hell of a lot. :rolleyes:

Army, Airforce none of 'em were worth a damn.

I have a friend who is in the military now who was in USMC JROTC, based on his behavior, I might be inclined to give them some credit, however, I think that was more the individual than the program. I still think it's a safe haven for the kids who want to do fun things but couldn't tie knots well enough to survive the boy scouts. :D

And this is generalizing I know. I'm sure there are a few good eggs and bad eggs just like anywhere, I'm just trying to emphasize that I don't think it transforms anyone. They were good people before. It's a waste.


So, did your parents move around a lot?

Well, you admit you are generalizing and then continue. Reduces credibility of your statements.

[stecal]

I did three years of Army JROTC in San Diego in the mid-70s. The retired SGM "commandant" is still the number one person in my life I have the most respect for. In one year, four of us received appointments to service academies, and the following year saw three. There are high schools that practically go decades without one person receiving an appointment. We were hardly misfits or geeks, but I can see how certain groups can get that reputation, I guess they reach geek critical mass or something like that. The point is: refrain from stereotyping.

[Smeghead]

JROTC units generally reflect the leadership. I ran a lot of base tours for many different schools' units, Navy and Air Force. If the kids looked and acted like shit you didn't have to look much further than their so called leadership--fat, old retired slobs just looking to keep parading that uniform around, even they looked like ass in it. On the flip side, we had a few schools whose JROTC programs were squared away because of the dedicated instructors. Subsequently the kids looked and acted well, were respectful to the AD members and seemed genuinely interested in learning about the base and the mission.

[B-183-3PL]

This thread is extremely misleading. The issues with unprofessionalism (whether you approve of it or not) have occurred in JROTC which is completely unassociated and unrelated to ROTC. My experience in ROTC is that all the personnel, both enlisted and officer, are extremely professional. Also, I have never know any ROTC cadet who would expect an enlisted member to salute them. Just seems crazy to me.

I have been in ROTC for 4 years know and could name numerous cad-idiots who have expect enlisted soldiers and even other cadets to salute them. That horrible attitude among cadets (the arrogance that obviously transfers itself into the officer corps) is rampant; hundreds of people who are demanding respect based off of nothing other than their "rank."

ROTC is a good program in theory and purpose, but is executed horribly by sub-par cadre members who are indeed active duty officers of 0-3s to 0-5s and E-7/E-8s. There have been good cadre, make no mistake, but there are few. The good cadre and good cadets are chased out/pushed down by high-ranking officers/NCOs who wish to make little models of themselves and live vicariously through their cadets.

[Skyhawk]

I have been in ROTC for 4 years know and could name numerous cad-idiots who have expect enlisted soldiers and even other cadets to salute them. That horrible attitude among cadets (the arrogance that obviously transfers itself into the officer corps) is rampant; hundreds of people who are demanding respect based off of nothing other than their "rank."

ROTC is a good program in theory and purpose, but is executed horribly by sub-par cadre members who are indeed active duty officers of 0-3s to 0-5s and E-7/E-8s. There have been good cadre, make no mistake, but there are few. The good cadre and good cadets are chased out/pushed down by high-ranking officers/NCOs who wish to make little models of themselves and live vicariously through their cadets.

Horsehockey!

Too often this forum devolves into one gripe-session after another and many times it reaches down to unsubstantiated and unbalanced aspersions against institutions and people who deserve better treatment.

I was an AFROTC graduate and no one ever expected nor wanted an enlisted member to salute him or her. This was because we were intelligent enough to understand our official rank in the USAF -- Airman First Class. That is the formal rank all cadets hold. When Professional Officer Candidates, the only time a cadet holds an officer-like rank, we are officially enlisted into the inactive USAF in the rank of A1C.

More to the point, in the rare cases where an unknowing enlisted member mistakenly did salute us, every cadet I knew felt embarassed and apologized to the enlisted member for the error. I'm not buying this claim that numerous cadets expected to be saluted. In fact, I'm fairly certain cadets today are the same as they were back when I was one.

They looked forward to the day they could hand over a silver dollar to an NCO whom they respected and learned a lot from during their time as a cadet. I fondly remember the technical sergeant at my ROTC detachment who lined up to proudly accept each salute from the newly minted nuggets. I asked my father for a rare solid-silver dollar, worth a lot more than $1 simply because when I handed it over to that NCO I wanted it to be something special for him.

He didn't walk over to a bar and buy beer with them! He held onto them as cherished herlooms, symbols of his success in bringing forth future AF leaders.

I feel sorry for people who desire to tarnish good institutions with their anghst and ax grinding. I hope perhaps one day these folks can find something in their lives they can take real and lasting value from. I remember with great fondness my years as a cadet. It was a rewarding experience and I won't stand idle any longer and allow uninformed people to trash it with biased generalities.

[Tympanoman]

Exactly. I can attest that most cadets I know share these same values, and I would guess that this is the case at most detachments around the country.

[MARINECOWBOY343]

i was in the young marines for 8 years and even thought it is not apart of JROTC or ROTC it is pretty much the same thing all around because most people who get into the young marines end up joining so part of the military and we did a lot of the same thing the JROTC and ROTC did. so yeah youth military programs are like a recruiting tool but it leaves the decision up to the person. I made sure that all my young marines always call the marines that help with the program buy their rank and name and to salute them whether their enlisted or officer.

[MKopack]

Yes, I was in AFJROTC at Liverpool (NY) High School, from 82-86. While it's not fair to generalize (although that doesn't seem to stop anyone else here) I thought it was a good program, taught by two very good instructors - a retired Major (ex B-52 and F-100 pilot) and a retired SMSgt.

We had some good people in the 'unit' and some who probably weren't a great fit, but let's face it, we're talking about High School and that is probably the case with just about any group of people. We had everything from people who had to be somewhere for a period a day, to those 'ate up' cadets who let their ranks go straight to their heads.

Now that I think of it, sort of like the real Air Force...

My first two years in the Air Force I spent on the flightline with the 56th TTW at MacDill AFB in Tampa, Florida. During the summers we had a large number of Acadamy and ROTC students who would spend time with us, shadowing our OIC's, etc. Most were pretty good - acted like sponges, trying to learn everything they could. We did what we could to help them along, and at least I wasn't all that upset when I put one in the back of my F-16 for an incentive flight (although I never got one...) afterall, they were our future. There were those however, some from the Acadamy and some from ROTC units who felt that they were 'higher life forms' than us little enlisted people and did expect salutes and deferential treatment, but, as I said up above, you tend to get that from just about any group of people.

I can remember one PITA clearly though, an ROTC student from UF who really stood out. I went up the ladder to the rear cockpit to help him strap in for an incentive flight and was showing him around the 'office' when he replied "I know all of this, and I can buckle myself in. This is my third flight, how many have you been on?" I made sure that his harness was buckled, for safety sake, and went up to the front cockpit to assist the pilot. He apologized for the cadet's attitude, and I told him that after takeoff he might want to remind his rider (who knew so well how to buckle in) that his G-suit would be more effective if attached to the jet. The IP got the message and as he rotated off the deck, pulled hard - almost instantaneous 9G's in the climb, and my Gator friend went from cocky to unconcious - just like that. A whole new attitude was seen on recovery...

Mike

[Skyhawk]

Excellent lesson applied wisely! LOL!!

I'm sure he learned something valuable and replaced some of his youthful confidence with real knowledge and perspective.

Well done!

[TJMAC77SP]

Yes, I was in AFJROTC at Liverpool (NY) High School, from 82-86. While it's not fair to generalize (although that doesn't seem to stop anyone else here) I thought it was a good program, taught by two very good instructors - a retired Major (ex B-52 and F-100 pilot) and a retired SMSgt.

We had some good people in the 'unit' and some who probably weren't a great fit, but let's face it, we're talking about High School and that is probably the case with just about any group of people. We had everything from people who had to be somewhere for a period a day, to those 'ate up' cadets who let their ranks go straight to their heads.

Now that I think of it, sort of like the real Air Force...

My first two years in the Air Force I spent on the flightline with the 56th TTW at MacDill AFB in Tampa, Florida. During the summers we had a large number of Acadamy and ROTC students who would spend time with us, shadowing our OIC's, etc. Most were pretty good - acted like sponges, trying to learn everything they could. We did what we could to help them along, and at least I wasn't all that upset when I put one in the back of my F-16 for an incentive flight (although I never got one...) afterall, they were our future. There were those however, some from the Acadamy and some from ROTC units who felt that they were 'higher life forms' than us little enlisted people and did expect salutes and deferential treatment, but, as I said up above, you tend to get that from just about any group of people.

I can remember one PITA clearly though, an ROTC student from UF who really stood out. I went up the ladder to the rear cockpit to help him strap in for an incentive flight and was showing him around the 'office' when he replied "I know all of this, and I can buckle myself in. This is my third flight, how many have you been on?" I made sure that his harness was buckled, for safety sake, and went up to the front cockpit to assist the pilot. He apologized for the cadet's attitude, and I told him that after takeoff he might want to remind his rider (who knew so well how to buckle in) that his G-suit would be more effective if attached to the jet. The IP got the message and as he rotated off the deck, pulled hard - almost instantaneous 9G's in the climb, and my Gator friend went from cocky to unconcious - just like that. A whole new attitude was seen on recovery...

Mike

I assume the jet was naked and then of course went into the hanger for some serious checks upon landing

[ringjamesa]

Ok, first, JROTC and ROTC are two different animals. I have worked with both. JROTC is a good program and often leads the young people toward the military (not necessarily the branch of the JROTC). Some of the students use JROTC to fullfill their phys ed requirement (think get out of gym class). No big deal. The officers and enlisted who run the programs are generally nice to all services Recruiters (some Marines can be a bit gruff but most are fine). ROTC is a whole different ballgame. For the most part, the instructors let them slack a bit until they sign on the dotted line. Once they have been to the "summer camp," it is game on. then they are expected to know and meet standards. Some JROTC instructors hold their students to a higher standard than some ROTC instructors do (at least initally). It is hard to keep a college student that is paying their own way if you are too uptight.... If a cadet wants you to salute them...they are sadly mistaken. The reason ROTC cadets shadow AD Lts is to get a basic understanding of what life is like on an Base and what they might expect to do when they get on AD. Keep in mind, unlike those who comlete OTS or a Service Academy, this is the only exposure to the "real" military that they get before they are on AD except for the time they spend in the summer.

[BoyScout]

As for ROTC, from my son's current experience I know that there are knuckleheads in his battalion who think of themselves as real officers already and therefore do some pretty dumb things. Even before he entered the program I counseled my son to remember his station and always act with respect and modesty, and it appears that he is doing so. I have made an effort to get to know his cadre, many of whom served not too long ago in Iraq and/or Afghanistan. I really appreciate their efforts to try and turn out officers of good character, but if the parents hand them knuckleheads, it just makes their jobs harder.

[JD2780]

I was never in JROTC or ROTC. I do know however they are night and day in comparison. One works with highschool students to better themselves as people and citizens while instilling the leadership and followership qualities of a military member. ROTC prepares college students to BE actually military officers and provides lessons that are important to thier respective services. When I went home on recruiters assistance moons ago, I did see two seperate JROTC programs. They in themselves we night and day as well. One was ran with great structure and mentoring from instructors as well as the cadets in the class. The other "unit" looked more like the movie we all know and laugh at Major Payne. Sloppy kids taking after the sloppy leadership. There were more my rank is higher than you rank issues in the goat rope unit than the other one. JROTC is for kids trying to better themselves and nothing more. If they enjoy it and it makes them motiivated to join the military then great. Enough of my ramblings just some insight from someone looking in.

[CplH5811]

I did four years of JROTC in high school and I can say that it has helped me incredibly before I went AD. Not just the automatic promotion but, just the general knowledge. It definately instilled a sense of responsibility and leadership. It also helped me make sure that I did want to join the military by presenting information about and interaction with AD military. I think it's a great program and I hope it stays around for years to come.

[pheenix]

I used to hate when they'd have those cadets basically job shadow a 2LT in active duty units; once again, we'd be expected to salute and all that. Joke!

Like hell I'd salute a cadet. He is NOT an officer and therefore is not entitled to the same respect and privledges that an officer is. I would still treat them like human beings and adress them as Cadet.

[Skyhawk]

Like hell I'd salute a cadet. He is NOT an officer and therefore is not entitled to the same respect and privledges that an officer is. I would still treat them like human beings and adress them as Cadet.

I challenge anyone here to show me objective information where anyone has ordered enlisted members to salute a cadet. An enlisted member E-1 and E-2 are outranked by a professional officer candidate. A POC is any cadet at a service academy and any ROTC cadet on scholarship or in his final two years, wearing cadet officer rank. In OTS the cadets are also POC's.

As I wrote before, official Air Force rank for a professional cadet is A1C. Therefore to order an enlisted member of any rank to salute a cadet violates all military protocols. And unless someone can show me official publications or orders to the contrary, I refuse to believe anyone has been ordered to do so.

I can believe there is a few who misundertsand the situation and may have saluted in error. I can believe a few cadets might return the salute and enjoy the moment. I also believe most cadets may return the salute but feel sheepish doing so and may apologize to the enlisted member. Me it happened once at an Air Force base and I did not return the salute but stopped and apologized to the young enlisted member by explaining I was not an officer but a cadet and did not warrant a salute.

[hopesick]

i'll never salute one of those kids. they tried to make us do that crap so many times haha, but even when we got called out on it, the chief or whoever would come back later and say what a joke the jrotc is.
the jrotc isnt the military, so dont treat it like the military.

[Jumper Payne]

Skyhawk...I could not agree more!

[vb123]

This entire thread is ridiculous. First of all, people need to stop confusing JROTC with ROTC. Completely different programs. JROTC is just a social club for high schoolers, and have no commitment or real relationship with the military (other than they wear the uniform).

ROTC is a commitment based program, to develop leaders for the army active/reserve/guard. ROTC is at the college level, and is ran seriously. They fall under TRADOC/Accessions. ROTC Cadets are administered the oath of enlistment, and after their freshman year, they are locked in. If they fail out of the program they are sent to basic and serve out their enlistment.

As for saluting ROTC students, if they are SMP it should be expected. They are usually slotted in PL slots, and technically (as per Army Command Policy) out rank enlisted.

[TJMAC77SP]

This entire thread is ridiculous. First of all, people need to stop confusing JROTC with ROTC. Completely different programs. JROTC is just a social club for high schoolers, and have no commitment or real relationship with the military (other than they wear the uniform).

ROTC is a commitment based program, to develop leaders for the army active/reserve/guard. ROTC is at the college level, and is ran seriously. They fall under TRADOC/Accessions. ROTC Cadets are administered the oath of enlistment, and after their freshman year, they are locked in. If they fail out of the program they are sent to basic and serve out their enlistment.

As for saluting ROTC students, if they are SMP it should be expected. They are usually slotted in PL slots, and technically (as per Army Command Policy) out rank enlisted.

You have simply perpetuated this thread. It will now live on long after it should have quietly died.

[acesfilter]

You have simply perpetuated this thread. It will now live on long after it should have quietly died.

You got that right, TJ. Especially considering this ended up on the front page of the Army and Navy Times.

This entire thread is ridiculous. First of all, people need to stop confusing JROTC with ROTC. Completely different programs. JROTC is just a social club for high schoolers, and have no commitment or real relationship with the military (other than they wear the uniform).

ROTC is a commitment based program, to develop leaders for the army active/reserve/guard. ROTC is at the college level, and is ran seriously. They fall under TRADOC/Accessions. ROTC Cadets are administered the oath of enlistment, and after their freshman year, they are locked in. If they fail out of the program they are sent to basic and serve out their enlistment.

As for saluting ROTC students, if they are SMP it should be expected. They are usually slotted in PL slots, and technically (as per Army Command Policy) out rank enlisted.

Ah yes...someone else who has completely missed the point. This is precisely why the junior officer to senior enlisted rank structure relation is completely backwards. Explain to me how a 2LT can tell a SFC what to do when nine times out of ten--that SFC has a lot more experience. The only thing I could give credit to the LT for is the fact that they are held accountable for more equipment via hand receipt.

A 1LT isn't much better...as they are still sorta wet behind the ears. They say they're supposed to make less mistakes after spending the first 18 months as a 2LT. Some do--most don't. This is just from my personal experience, of course. But very rarely have I been impressed with anything an LT does performance wise. Doesn't say much for the Cadets--as most of them are young enough to be my little brother.

Now the rank structure relation of warrant officer to enlisted makes a lot more sense. In that, the warrant usually has to spend a significant amount of time as enlisted prior to crossing over. By the time he or she has pinned on their WO1, they have a vast amount of knowledge already and it only gets more interesting from there.

Point is, I'll respect the rank all day--but I'll also analyze the person through their performance and how they conduct themselves off duty. This is usually where most LTs and Cadets fail--epically. On a side note, saluting someone before they've officially been commissioned is insulting--not to mention it placates to the already inflated ego of the Cadet.

[ringjamesa]

This entire thread is ridiculous. First of all, people need to stop confusing JROTC with ROTC. Completely different programs. JROTC is just a social club for high schoolers, and have no commitment or real relationship with the military (other than they wear the uniform).
ROTC is a commitment based program, to develop leaders for the army active/reserve/guard. ROTC is at the college level, and is ran seriously. They fall under TRADOC/Accessions. ROTC Cadets are administered the oath of enlistment, and after their freshman year, they are locked in. If they fail out of the program they are sent to basic and serve out their enlistment.
As for saluting ROTC students, if they are SMP it should be expected. They are usually slotted in PL slots, and technically (as per Army Command Policy) out rank enlisted.

Oh how wrong you are. First. The Army isn't the only branch with ROTC. Second, ROTC commits you to Active duty. Only in very certian circumstances are graduates of an ROTC program allowed to forgo their ADSC to go into the Guard or Reserve. Third, most ROTC programs do not enlist the majority of their cadets until their sophmore/jr year. They are not committed to anything until the ROTC program starts to for out $ for their education. Fourth, since as you said, they are ENLISTED into the ROTC program, why would they warrent a salute and how exactly do they outrank enlisted members? I can see if you said they outrank and E-1 or E-2 and you could possibly say up to E-4 but all enlisted? Don't think so. Once they complete the program and are Commissioned, they immediately outrank enlisted but not while they are still cadets.

[AIRFORCEAGGIE]

I challenge anyone here to show me objective information where anyone has ordered enlisted members to salute a cadet. An enlisted member E-1 and E-2 are outranked by a professional officer candidate. A POC is any cadet at a service academy and any ROTC cadet on scholarship or in his final two years, wearing cadet officer rank. In OTS the cadets are also POC's.

As I wrote before, official Air Force rank for a professional cadet is A1C. Therefore to order an enlisted member of any rank to salute a cadet violates all military protocols. And unless someone can show me official publications or orders to the contrary, I refuse to believe anyone has been ordered to do so.

I can believe there is a few who misundertsand the situation and may have saluted in error. I can believe a few cadets might return the salute and enjoy the moment. I also believe most cadets may return the salute but feel sheepish doing so and may apologize to the enlisted member. Me it happened once at an Air Force base and I did not return the salute but stopped and apologized to the young enlisted member by explaining I was not an officer but a cadet and did not warrant a salute.

I agree completely. In fact, prior to my shadow program and my field training, we were specifically counseled to not take salutes from enlisted and to correct them of our proper status. As A1Cs in the AF reserve, we were all well aware of the position we had with the rest of the AF. If anything, most cadets I knew went out of their way to make sure they were not saluted by the enlisted. The confusion comes from the fact that POC cadets are issued officer uniforms with the silver braid in their flight caps.

Also, for those ignorant of the facts, POC cadets are given cadet officer ranks. The cadets in the first two years of rotc are expected to salute POC cadets. That is so the cadets can have experience in rendering military courtesies. Remember, unlike Academy or OTS, this is the only exposure to the military outside of Field Training and the shadowing of an AD officer. The saluting of POC cadets is only within the rotc detachment and not expected outside of the campus or field training.

Also, for those opposed to saluting, shame on you!! The military salute is a courtesy and privilige between two members of the warrior class. It is a sign of mutual respect and courtesy. If you are so unprofessional to not realize this fact, then you don't belong in the military.

Finally, realize that the cadet you disrespect with a middle finger, no names mentioned like Variable Wind, will one day be an officer.. I can guarantee if disrespect like that is shown to a commissioned officer by an enlisted personnel, that person will find himself in a world of hurt. We had an airman do that to one of our missile officers. He gave him the middle finger salute because the enlisted airman was black and felt that the black officer he saluted was a "sellout". While we were not in that airman's chain of command, a simple call to his first shirt and co and the next week, the airman was given an article 15. As it is, it is easy to talk big when you are anonymous on a forum. I actually challenge any of you to show that level of disrespect in real life that you purport to do so in these pages.

[AIRFORCEAGGIE]

You got that right, TJ. Especially considering this ended up on the front page of the Army and Navy Times.



Ah yes...someone else who has completely missed the point. This is precisely why the junior officer to senior enlisted rank structure relation is completely backwards. Explain to me how a 2LT can tell a SFC what to do when nine times out of ten--that SFC has a lot more experience. The only thing I could give credit to the LT for is the fact that they are held accountable for more equipment via hand receipt.

A 1LT isn't much better...as they are still sorta wet behind the ears. They say they're supposed to make less mistakes after spending the first 18 months as a 2LT. Some do--most don't. This is just from my personal experience, of course. But very rarely have I been impressed with anything an LT does performance wise. Doesn't say much for the Cadets--as most of them are young enough to be my little brother.

Now the rank structure relation of warrant officer to enlisted makes a lot more sense. In that, the warrant usually has to spend a significant amount of time as enlisted prior to crossing over. By the time he or she has pinned on their WO1, they have a vast amount of knowledge already and it only gets more interesting from there.

Point is, I'll respect the rank all day--but I'll also analyze the person through their performance and how they conduct themselves off duty. This is usually where most LTs and Cadets fail--epically. On a side note, saluting someone before they've officially been commissioned is insulting--not to mention it placates to the already inflated ego of the Cadet.


Because you don't get the point. You have to start from somewhere. Seasoned field grade officers don't just magically appear. They come with time and seasoning. As an nco, it is your responsibility to mentor the young lieutenant and provide him with the guidance to make his decisions. The difference that you don't get is that while a senior nco has the experience, by law and position, the ultimate decision is still up to the lieutenant who is in command of the platoon, flight, naval division, etc. It is your responsibility as a nco to be professional and teach that young officer. so, step up to the plate and give the lts a break. I'm sure you weren't perfect either when you were an e1 - e4.

[AIRFORCEAGGIE]

This entire thread is ridiculous. First of all, people need to stop confusing JROTC with ROTC. Completely different programs. JROTC is just a social club for high schoolers, and have no commitment or real relationship with the military (other than they wear the uniform).
ROTC is a commitment based program, to develop leaders for the army active/reserve/guard. ROTC is at the college level, and is ran seriously. They fall under TRADOC/Accessions. ROTC Cadets are administered the oath of enlistment, and after their freshman year, they are locked in. If they fail out of the program they are sent to basic and serve out their enlistment.
As for saluting ROTC students, if they are SMP it should be expected. They are usually slotted in PL slots, and technically (as per Army Command Policy) out rank enlisted.

Oh how wrong you are. First. The Army isn't the only branch with ROTC. Second, ROTC commits you to Active duty. Only in very certian circumstances are graduates of an ROTC program allowed to forgo their ADSC to go into the Guard or Reserve. Third, most ROTC programs do not enlist the majority of their cadets until their sophmore/jr year. They are not committed to anything until the ROTC program starts to for out $ for their education. Fourth, since as you said, they are ENLISTED into the ROTC program, why would they warrent a salute and how exactly do they outrank enlisted members? I can see if you said they outrank and E-1 or E-2 and you could possibly say up to E-4 but all enlisted? Don't think so. Once they complete the program and are Commissioned, they immediately outrank enlisted but not while they are still cadets.

Actually, ring, you're wrong on several accounts. The services have different standards for their officer candidates. While it is true that all three enlist their rotc cadets into the reserves, the Navy and Marine Corps treat their midshipmen as warrant officers. As such, when the nrotc midshipmen are on their first class cruise and holding positions as junior officers aboard ship, they are rated a salute by the enlisted. Similarly, in the Army smp program, the cadets are promoted to e-5 (officer candidate) upon their junior year and are placed as an assistant platoon leader. In my guard unit, the smps wore cadet rank and were treated as lieutenants and we were told to render them a salute. In a sense, you are right in that they don't OUTRANK cadets, but as Junior and Senior cadets, they are quite often rendered the courtesies of an officer. Finally, it is only afrotc and nrotc that guarantees AD. Army has an option for guaranteed guard and reserve contracts. This allows the officer to be commissioned in the reserves or national guard. Also, when there are too many officers on AD, a portion of army rotc grads go into the guard and reserves. You don't see it now because we are at war and there is a shortage of junior line officers.

Oh, and on the obligation, depending on the type of scholarship, you can be obligated as early as the spring semester of your freshman year. Whether you are obligated or not, you are enlisted into the military from day one of rotc if you are a scholarship cadet.

[Skyhawk]

Ah yes...someone else who has completely missed the point. This is precisely why the junior officer to senior enlisted rank structure relation is completely backwards. Explain to me how a 2LT can tell a SFC what to do when nine times out of ten--that SFC has a lot more experience. The only thing I could give credit to the LT for is the fact that they are held accountable for more equipment via hand receipt.

If someone has missed the point of this thread, then that appears a far more forgivable error than the one it appears you have made. You openly ask to have explained to you the rank structure of the US military. Well, that reveals you gave little thought to your oath of office, which expressly requires you to "obey the lawful orders of those appointed over you." Whether you like it or not is immaterial. In the US military our Constitution specifies the chain-of-command.

It works this way: every four years the American citizenry elects a President. Said President upon taking his own oath of office immediately becomes the new Commander-in-Chief. Commissioned officers of various ranks all serve at the sole pleasure of the President. He can fire us any time the mood strikes him. It is through the President that we officers derive our legitimacy of authority. Officers are expected to serve a lifetime, whether inactive, reserve, active duty, or retired their commissions are held for life unless the officer elects to apply to have his commission resigned or unless the President elects to cancel said commission. Enlisted take an oath expected to last a specified term limit, renewable with the agreement of the enlisted member with the concurrent acceptance of the military leadership to accept the offer of re-enlistment.

A 1LT isn't much better...as they are still sorta wet behind the ears. They say they're supposed to make less mistakes after spending the first 18 months as a 2LT. Some do--most don't. This is just from my personal experience, of course. But very rarely have I been impressed with anything an LT does performance wise. Doesn't say much for the Cadets--as most of them are young enough to be my little brother.

I would sincerely hope you reserve more respect for your family that it seems you do officers. Do they really have to be 35-45 years old to earn your respect? If that is the case, I highly suggest you keep it to yourself because that's not how the rest of the US military sees it! The same SNCO's whom it seems you chaff seeing follow orders from younger officers understand it is their professional obligation to do two things. As their oath specifies, they are to follow the lawful orders of those over them, plus as SNCO's they are obligated by moral duty to mentor the young officer in their charge to guide them with their wisdom and help shape them into more effective leaders and commanders. As a cadet, a CMSgt lectured a room of cadets and talked warmly of "her lieutenant." Meaning she treated this nugget as her officer and leader, but also as someone who would benefit from her guidance and wisdom. It was a fraternal relationship. If this seems strange to you, I submit you made a poor employment decision in your life. Seek out your first opportunity to find something in your future employment you can better understand and operate successfully within!

Now the rank structure relation of warrant officer to enlisted makes a lot more sense. In that, the warrant usually has to spend a significant amount of time as enlisted prior to crossing over. By the time he or she has pinned on their WO1, they have a vast amount of knowledge already and it only gets more interesting from there.

In the US Army the Warrant Officer program works well. It was abandoned by the USAF long before any of us on duty today accepted our commissions or our initial enlistments. I find it dubious you would reserve respect for young WO's when it is so very clear you have little to none for young commissioned officers.

Point is, I'll respect the rank all day--but I'll also analyze the person through their performance and how they conduct themselves off duty. This is usually where most LTs and Cadets fail--epically. On a side note, saluting someone before they've officially been commissioned is insulting--not to mention it placates to the already inflated ego of the Cadet.

Point is unless you are elected President of the United States, it isn't your call! You will respect the rank and you will exercise legitimate respect for the rank structure within the US military. You will do this not because you like it but because it is your basic oath of office. You speak of respect for the person. That is interesting. How precisely are we to react to you when you indicate you failed to appreciate and respect your oath of office?

Respect for authority is among the lesser of your issues. I would start by noting you fail to respect yourself. You stood before the flag, raised your right hand, and took a solemn oath which you now publicly tarnish by refusing to adhere to its spirit and letter.

[RM2SWUSNRET]

Well I do not know about the AFJRTOTC. But the NAVYJROTC in corpus christi texas was disiplined. both of my kids class of 2000 and 2002. they had plenty of disipline there NJROTC Instructor CDR Paul holder kept the kids in check that needed to be. My son graduated as a CADET/LCDR and won a boat load full of awards. so do my daughter. he went into the marine corps and excelled because of the leadership training he recieved in NJROTC. My daughter has excelled in the active duty navy. when she was taking her leadership/rating exam. when she got to the leadership part she could hear cdr holder repeating the lecutres over and again. it is up to the NJROTC CDR and the enlisted CPO to maintain disipline within his unit without resulting without over doing it. I know that the navy jr rotc has it's act together. since the navy and marine corps are parts together the kids get the discipline as needed.

as far as the air force jr rotc they would not know disipline if it bit them in the rear. I worked for the air force as a civilian. The active enlisted call each other by there first names. Where the navy it is Chief, or Senior chief, or there rate meaning MM2, OR BM2.

But I guess that is the air force jrotc. we in the navy and the corps get discipline at the NAVY JR ROTC LEVEL! My son went into the corps way ahead of his peers way from the leadership training he got.,



RM2SWUSNRETKIRBYTX007

[acesfilter]

Because you don't get the point. You have to start from somewhere. Seasoned field grade officers don't just magically appear. They come with time and seasoning. As an nco, it is your responsibility to mentor the young lieutenant and provide him with the guidance to make his decisions. The difference that you don't get is that while a senior nco has the experience, by law and position, the ultimate decision is still up to the lieutenant who is in command of the platoon, flight, naval division, etc. It is your responsibility as a nco to be professional and teach that young officer. so, step up to the plate and give the lts a break. I'm sure you weren't perfect either when you were an e1 - e4.


This is what's so disturbing about all this: the fact that people like you have zero problem with this arrangement. Despite the lack of experience of an LT, the weight of the world is thrown on their shoulders and they are, by regulation, required to make decisions which would be better bestowed upon a senior NCO. Yeah...I don't get it, clearly. :rolleyes:

It's why I have always felt like a genius in an army of morons. It's called disassociation. I chose another career path just to get away from those kinds of people. Granted not everyone walks around like they have an "S" on their chest. But even you can admit that some LTs do not listen to their PSGs. Consequently, those are the ones who, when they become a CPT, fall flat on their face and put their entire company in harm's way. I have seen it happen--in Iraq, of all places.

Experience will always trump rank in the real world. Rank is a paycheck and, for all intents and purposes, authoritative.

[Variable Wind]

Horsehockey!

Too often this forum devolves into one gripe-session after another and many times it reaches down to unsubstantiated and unbalanced aspersions against institutions and people who deserve better treatment.

I was an AFROTC graduate and no one ever expected nor wanted an enlisted member to salute him or her. This was because we were intelligent enough to understand our official rank in the USAF -- Airman First Class. That is the formal rank all cadets hold. When Professional Officer Candidates, the only time a cadet holds an officer-like rank, we are officially enlisted into the inactive USAF in the rank of A1C.

More to the point, in the rare cases where an unknowing enlisted member mistakenly did salute us, every cadet I knew felt embarassed and apologized to the enlisted member for the error. I'm not buying this claim that numerous cadets expected to be saluted. In fact, I'm fairly certain cadets today are the same as they were back when I was one.

They looked forward to the day they could hand over a silver dollar to an NCO whom they respected and learned a lot from during their time as a cadet. I fondly remember the technical sergeant at my ROTC detachment who lined up to proudly accept each salute from the newly minted nuggets. I asked my father for a rare solid-silver dollar, worth a lot more than $1 simply because when I handed it over to that NCO I wanted it to be something special for him.

He didn't walk over to a bar and buy beer with them! He held onto them as cherished herlooms, symbols of his success in bringing forth future AF leaders.

I feel sorry for people who desire to tarnish good institutions with their anghst and ax grinding. I hope perhaps one day these folks can find something in their lives they can take real and lasting value from. I remember with great fondness my years as a cadet. It was a rewarding experience and I won't stand idle any longer and allow uninformed people to trash it with biased generalities.

I guess times have changed since your turn in the barrel.

[Variable Wind]

As for saluting ROTC students, if they are SMP it should be expected. They are usually slotted in PL slots, and technically (as per Army Command Policy) out rank enlisted.
Yet another attitude within the military that I wont miss.

[Variable Wind]

I challenge anyone here to show me objective information where anyone has ordered enlisted members to salute a cadet. An enlisted member E-1 and E-2 are outranked by a professional officer candidate. A POC is any cadet at a service academy and any ROTC cadet on scholarship or in his final two years, wearing cadet officer rank. In OTS the cadets are also POC's.


I can give you a first hand account. At college, I was packing up to go to drill, in my fatigues and some of the army cadets walked up to me and "reminded" me that I needed to salute them since they were coming back from their circle-jerk of a class. So I did...with one finger.

Im not saying that its in the regs, just that some of the chodes that this institution attracts, feel that they can talk down to others. I was in the military longer than they had been in ROTC, but they went to a ranger camp so I guess they were cooler :rolleyes: I know some cool guys who came through ROTC, but they were more the exception than the rule.

[acesfilter]

Also, for those ignorant of the facts, POC cadets are given cadet officer ranks. The cadets in the first two years of rotc are expected to salute POC cadets. That is so the cadets can have experience in rendering military courtesies. Remember, unlike Academy or OTS, this is the only exposure to the military outside of Field Training and the shadowing of an AD officer. The saluting of POC cadets is only within the rotc detachment and not expected outside of the campus or field training.

So basically you're saying that cadets are given this authority so they can practice saluting? Yeah, that just goes to show you the level of confidence I place in them as competent Soldiers. :rolleyes:


Also, for those opposed to saluting, shame on you!! The military salute is a courtesy and privilige between two members of the warrior class. It is a sign of mutual respect and courtesy. If you are so unprofessional to not realize this fact, then you don't belong in the military.

Really now? If that's the case, why don't NCOs get saluted (other than reporting to a board, 1SG, etc..)? You might want to do a bit more reading on the origin of the salute.


Finally, realize that the cadet you disrespect with a middle finger, no names mentioned like Variable Wind, will one day be an officer.. I can guarantee if disrespect like that is shown to a commissioned officer by an enlisted personnel, that person will find himself in a world of hurt. We had an airman do that to one of our missile officers. He gave him the middle finger salute because the enlisted airman was black and felt that the black officer he saluted was a "sellout". While we were not in that airman's chain of command, a simple call to his first shirt and co and the next week, the airman was given an article 15. As it is, it is easy to talk big when you are anonymous on a forum. I actually challenge any of you to show that level of disrespect in real life that you purport to do so in these pages.

Got you beat there, pal. I'll be the first one to admit that I disrespected a 1LT in Iraq (after a bout with combat fatigue) as a SPC at the time. I'll admit I was wrong as hell for doing it--but at the sametime, that particular LT showed his true colors in deployment. Let's just say he was awesome in garrison, but a complete tool in combat. As I pointed this out to him, it gave him pause. So that tells me he at least had to rethink his career move, albeit briefly.

You put too much stock in rank. You have to look at the individual as well; then ask yourself if they are there to do a job or are they there for a paycheck.

[acesfilter]

If someone has missed the point of this thread, then that appears a far more forgivable error than the one it appears you have made. You openly ask to have explained to you the rank structure of the US military. Well, that reveals you gave little thought to your oath of office, which expressly requires you to "obey the lawful orders of those appointed over you." Whether you like it or not is immaterial. In the US military our Constitution specifies the chain-of-command.

Yet you never denied the fact that for the first couple of years as a commissioned officer, the rank structure relation is backwards as far as experience is concerned. If anything, a platoon leader should be encouraged to train with the PSG. Most company commanders aren't doing this.

It works this way: every four years the American citizenry elects a President. Said President upon taking his own oath of office immediately becomes the new Commander-in-Chief. Commissioned officers of various ranks all serve at the sole pleasure of the President. He can fire us any time the mood strikes him. It is through the President that we officers derive our legitimacy of authority. Officers are expected to serve a lifetime, whether inactive, reserve, active duty, or retired their commissions are held for life unless the officer elects to apply to have his commission resigned or unless the President elects to cancel said commission. Enlisted take an oath expected to last a specified term limit, renewable with the agreement of the enlisted member with the concurrent acceptance of the military leadership to accept the offer of re-enlistment.

Since you brought it up first, I'll pose a question of my own: are you one of the many who questions the current POTUS's lack of experience or do you back him? In either case, why?



I would sincerely hope you reserve more respect for your family that it seems you do officers. Do they really have to be 35-45 years old to earn your respect? If that is the case, I highly suggest you keep it to yourself because that's not how the rest of the US military sees it!

Irrelevant...and you fail again. Because it's not age I'm worried about. Although one has to wonder how much life experience a person could possibly have at 22 that would qualify them to make life or death decisions on the battlefield (there's a reason you have to be 35 to run for POTUS--just sayin'). At any rate, if you were paying attention...I said I would analyze the person based on performance and how they conduct themselves. I've met some very mature 20 something year olds....just like I've met some very immature 40 something year olds. It's all relative.

As a cadet, a CMSgt lectured a room of cadets and talked warmly of "her lieutenant." Meaning she treated this nugget as her officer and leader, but also as someone who would benefit from her guidance and wisdom. It was a fraternal relationship.

Probably a lot more going on there. But we will leave it at that.

If this seems strange to you, I submit you made a poor employment decision in your life. Seek out your first opportunity to find something in your future employment you can better understand and operate successfully within!

You mean flip burgers for a living because I don't agree with everything that is placed before me like a drone? No. I'd still be a drone if I took your advice--just an extremely poor, unhealthy drone.



In the US Army the Warrant Officer program works well. It was abandoned by the USAF long before any of us on duty today accepted our commissions or our initial enlistments. I find it dubious you would reserve respect for young WO's when it is so very clear you have little to none for young commissioned officers.

Of course you do. That's because you have no idea why I do what I do in the first place. Not that I'd tell you anyway because you wouldn't believe me or would attempt to belittle the driving force which enables me to make a difference in other people's lives. Oh...way to reveal your confusion over the true purpose of a WO, btw. You really are clueless when it comes to differentiating between the two.



Point is unless you are elected President of the United States, it isn't your call! You will respect the rank and you will exercise legitimate respect for the rank structure within the US military. You will do this not because you like it but because it is your basic oath of office. You speak of respect for the person. That is interesting. How precisely are we to react to you when you indicate you failed to appreciate and respect your oath of office?
I took no oath of office. Since when did I say I worked for congress? I think you got your oaths mixed up.

Respect for authority is among the lesser of your issues. I would start by noting you fail to respect yourself. You stood before the flag, raised your right hand, and took a solemn oath which you now publicly tarnish by refusing to adhere to its spirit and letter.

And you fail at this entire post. Clearly, you are a drone. Go polish brass and tell your grandkids about how you made some young punk push because he wouldn't salute you when you were a cadet once.

[Skyhawk]

I can give you a first hand account. At college, I was packing up to go to drill, in my fatigues and some of the army cadets walked up to me and "reminded" me that I needed to salute them since they were coming back from their circle-jerk of a class. So I did...with one finger.

Im not saying that its in the regs, just that some of the chodes that this institution attracts, feel that they can talk down to others. I was in the military longer than they had been in ROTC, but they went to a ranger camp so I guess they were cooler :rolleyes: I know some cool guys who came through ROTC, but they were more the exception than the rule.

Apparently the Army does it a bit differently than the Air Force. I keep the discussion within my sphere of knowledge, which is a character trait I think many in this forum could benefit from! In the Air Force, this is not done, but it seems that in the Army, within a specific situation, it is done.

If that is the case, and from your comment you were at that time in the Army, then you may have violated regulations with your conduct. Only you can tell. But if you did, then that only complicates your actions. Who is the "tool?" Cadets who may have been right in expecting you to follow Army customs and traditions by saluting, or you for showing them middle-finger-extended? In my view, you were dead wrong on at least one level -- common human decorum. You may have been wrong on a second more significant level, violation of Army regulations. Since I'm not in the Army, I'll have to let someone else confirm my suspicion.

[Variable Wind]

Apparently the Army does it a bit differently than the Air Force. I keep the discussion within my sphere of knowledge, which is a character trait I think many in this forum could benefit from! In the Air Force, this is not done, but it seems that in the Army, within a specific situation, it is done.

Are you kidding me?!? Have you forgotten your younger days? If you give kids this future, that they will someday very soon, lead other men and women and command respect, and then you do not continually supervise them, then you are going to run into these issues all the time. Im not the only one here who has had this kind of experience. Dont think that your department has risen above it. If you honestly believe that, then you have completely lost touch with the reality that is college life. ROTC = little-to-no accountability.

[Skyhawk]

Well, "acesfilter" I guess there are many things one can fail at. One can fail to impress you or one can fail to be a gentleman. I will not lower myself any further to try to reach your level of impression as I feel it would prevent me remaining a gentleman. And remaining a gentleman is to me more important than trying to impress you.

Cheers!

[Skyhawk]

Are you kidding me?!? Have you forgotten your younger days? If you give kids this future, that they will someday very soon, lead other men and women and command respect, and then you do not continually supervise them, then you are going to run into these issues all the time. Im not the only one here who has had this kind of experience. Dont think that your department has risen above it. If you honestly believe that, then you have completely lost touch with the reality that is college life. ROTC = little-to-no accountability.

I think you miss the larger point. I'm not an Army officer. I don't set Army regulatory policy. Neither it seems do you. Why are you complaining to me about possible Army regulations? I am an Air Force officer.

No, I have not forgotten my "younger days," which is precisely why I provided so much background facts on Air Force ROTC. Did you read that information?

As for the details of your concern, frankly I'm having a hard time understanding your concern. How precisely does flipping cadets the bird educate and craft them into effective leaders? Assuming for the moment you had weight of Army regulations on your side in this, would not an enlisted member carefully and calmly explaining Army regulations on protocols done far more in this educational role than "flipping off?"

You see, you are talking now about image and shaping future leaders. I would have a far easier time accepting the premise if the person making the argument did not appear to so horrible mangle the concept himself!

[Variable Wind]

Look Skyhawk...the problem is we have a lack of respect being instilled in new officers and its being facilitated in the ROTC level because they are given the impression that all enlisted are just future peons. I never wanted to be an officer, I could never go through the amount of ass-kissing that is involved in it. Coming from the Aviation side of the Army, I understand many similar AF complaints. This is the house of cards and how it is falling for those like me who KNOW they are smart and yet are not treated as such since we didnt decide that a little metal on the collar was worth the likelihood of selling out.

[Variable Wind]

I think you miss the larger point. I'm not an Army officer. I don't set Army regulatory policy. Neither it seems do you. Why are you complaining to me about possible Army regulations? I am an Air Force officer.

No, I have not forgotten my "younger days," which is precisely why I provided so much background facts on Air Force ROTC. Did you read that information?

As for the details of your concern, frankly I'm having a hard time understanding your concern. How precisely does flipping cadets the bird educate and craft them into effective leaders? Assuming for the moment you had weight of Army regulations on your side in this, would not an enlisted member carefully and calmly explaining Army regulations on protocols done far more in this educational role than "flipping off?"

You see, you are talking now about image and shaping future leaders. I would have a far easier time accepting the premise if the person making the argument did not appear to so horrible mangle the concept himself!

Yes yes, spoken like a true officer "well the book says...." at any point where common sense doesnt swing your way. Maybe you havent figured out that all departments of the military are extremely similar in structure and distinguish themselves with their different quirks...ie Marine E-7s are more akin to Army E-8s and AF E-8s are just pencil pushers ect. Now imagine how similar it is in a college level cirriculum, if the military bureaucracy has left you any ability to imagine at all. It is not my job nor my responsibility to educate and craft ROTC brats who are too immature to lead a mere months before they graduate. Especially when people who outrank me have given them the impression that respect to the enlisted is non-essential to the 'mission statement'

Or maybe it appears horribly mangled when explained plainly to you. I cannot sympathise with you.

[Skyhawk]

Variable, if you don't like the way the regs read, then work within the chain to change them. But you don't need me telling you how this works, or at least you should not. The answer is clear, the required conduct is even clearer.

If you are so chewed up by all this that you cannot perform your duties while maintaining a reasonable level of decorum, then perhaps you've found a line of work you need to discontinue.

In the Air Force, we have a saying. Get this stuff off my radar scope! That means somethings are important and deserve attention. Other stuff is called mission "quip" and deserves removal from your focus. I submit you need to move on to more important things. I also sincerely hope those cadets you insulted so gratuitously don't end up in your chain of command. I hope that for your sake. I also urge you to maintain your anonymity within this forum. The military is a small community and stuff like what you did finds its way around.

I can pretty much guarantee you that in over 23 years of military service I've never once extended my middle finger to anyone I served with, much less someone whom reasonably might become my boss! Then again, such conduct is unacceptable to anyone, so rank truly has nothing to do with it, now does it?

Maybe things work differently in the Army, but I suspect they don't and deep down you know you were wrong as wrong can be. Maybe that's why you're so worked up about this.

[Variable Wind]

Variable, if you don't like the way the regs read, then work within the chain to change them. But you don't need me telling you how this works, or at least you should not. The answer is clear, the required conduct is even clearer.
Right, the regs say that they were wrong. Now lets look at your full acceptance of their behavior because as it stands, you seem to show as much disdain for people who have a problem with the system that you exist in simply because it serves your self interests.

If you are so chewed up by all this that you cannot perform your duties while maintaining a reasonable level of decorum, then perhaps you've found a line of work you need to discontinue.
Yes the whole "if you dont like it get out" mentality really shows your stellar attitude towards people who have a problem with the military's officer corps inability to adapt to a new generation of soldiers/servicemen.

In the Air Force, we have a saying. Get this stuff off my radar scope! That means somethings are important and deserve attention. Other stuff is called mission "quip" and deserves removal from your focus. I submit you need to move on to more important things. I also sincerely hope those cadets you insulted so gratuitously don't end up in your chain of command. I hope that for your sake. I also urge you to maintain your anonymity within this forum. The military is a small community and stuff like what you did finds its way around.
Does the level of anonymity work for you? Is the reason that you say this simply because I or anyone else reading this, do not know who you are and therefore could never hold you accountable for your words? Silly me, oh how I am constantly in fear that someone might find out how I really think! Thats a great double standard that you carry with you...which further proves my point.

I can pretty much guarantee you that in over 23 years of military service I've never once extended my middle finger to anyone I served with, much less someone whom reasonably might become my boss! Then again, such conduct is unacceptable to anyone, so rank truly has nothing to do with it, now does it?
So you are a prude. Big deal. There are plenty of officers among the ranks who cannot say this. But it shows that you are really just afraid, you would never do it to someone who might be your boss because you are afraid to stand by what you believe in...because the system that you believe in basically encourages simple obedience, individual thought is the pathway to damnation.

Maybe things work differently in the Army, but I suspect they don't and deep down you know you were wrong as wrong can be. Maybe that's why you're so worked up about this.
Less worked up...more appauled that someone of rank can actually say that these kids were okay to do what they did, then say what I did was wrong, and then ellude to the fact that the only reason they said this in the first place is because of their annonymity. How spineless.

[Skyhawk]

Go argue with the watll, VW. Seems you enjoy doing it and the wall might actually listen better than you do.

Perhaps one day you might read and realize why most of those points you made don't apply to me at all.

Out and see 'ya!

[AIRFORCEAGGIE]

This is what's so disturbing about all this: the fact that people like you have zero problem with this arrangement. Despite the lack of experience of an LT, the weight of the world is thrown on their shoulders and they are, by regulation, required to make decisions which would be better bestowed upon a senior NCO. Yeah...I don't get it, clearly. :rolleyes:

It's why I have always felt like a genius in an army of morons. It's called disassociation. I chose another career path just to get away from those kinds of people. Granted not everyone walks around like they have an "S" on their chest. But even you can admit that some LTs do not listen to their PSGs. Consequently, those are the ones who, when they become a CPT, fall flat on their face and put their entire company in harm's way. I have seen it happen--in Iraq, of all places.

Experience will always trump rank in the real world. Rank is a paycheck and, for all intents and purposes, authoritative.

The thing is that a psg is the civilian equivalent of a foreman and the LT is the equivalent of a junior manager. The bottom line is that the LT is one in command and makes the ultimate decision. What you don't get is that an officer has to start from somewhere. Somewhere along the line, you have to give the person the ability to make decisions and to either succeed or fall flat on their face. Going by what you said, I do agree that experience trumps rank, but how are you going to have an experienced officer unless you give them the experience? Yes, you can have a 32 year old SFC command a platoon, but who then will command the company, battalion, brigade, etc? By your timeline, you'll end up with 60 year old battalion commanders and that is just as bad as having an inexperienced leader in charge of a platoon. That's why you have an experienced nco guiding the young officer. Yes, there are officers who don't listen, but there are also ROAD ncos and slacking junior enlisted. Does this mean that we condemn the majority for the sins of the few? The bottom line is that while you may enter the military as inexperienced, the level of inexperience does not last for long because of the military's up or out system. What I found was that LTs either learn fast or they were relieved of their commands. I, as with all the other officers, made mistakes when I was a LT. However, that is how you learn. If you can honestly say that you didn't make mistakes as a junior enlisted, then I'll agree with you and say change the system. Otherwise, cut them some slack.

[AIRFORCEAGGIE]

I can give you a first hand account. At college, I was packing up to go to drill, in my fatigues and some of the army cadets walked up to me and "reminded" me that I needed to salute them since they were coming back from their circle-jerk of a class. So I did...with one finger.

Im not saying that its in the regs, just that some of the chodes that this institution attracts, feel that they can talk down to others. I was in the military longer than they had been in ROTC, but they went to a ranger camp so I guess they were cooler :rolleyes: I know some cool guys who came through ROTC, but they were more the exception than the rule.

And how is giving them the finger showing how professional you are? If you truly had more experience than them, you would have approached them in a mature manner and corrected them. Instead, you showed with your behavior that you learned nothing from your time in the service.

[AIRFORCEAGGIE]

So basically you're saying that cadets are given this authority so they can practice saluting? Yeah, that just goes to show you the level of confidence I place in them as competent Soldiers. :rolleyes:



Really now? If that's the case, why don't NCOs get saluted (other than reporting to a board, 1SG, etc..)? You might want to do a bit more reading on the origin of the salute.



Got you beat there, pal. I'll be the first one to admit that I disrespected a 1LT in Iraq (after a bout with combat fatigue) as a SPC at the time. I'll admit I was wrong as hell for doing it--but at the sametime, that particular LT showed his true colors in deployment. Let's just say he was awesome in garrison, but a complete tool in combat. As I pointed this out to him, it gave him pause. So that tells me he at least had to rethink his career move, albeit briefly.

You put too much stock in rank. You have to look at the individual as well; then ask yourself if they are there to do a job or are they there for a paycheck.

I'm saying that ROTC, the T is for training. So roll your eyes all you want, but it doesn't take from the reason behind the saluting within ROTC. Second, YOU are the one who needs to understand the reason behind the salute. The history behind the salute was when two nights approached each other, they would raise their masks to show their faces to each other as a sign of mutual respect. As the knights were gentlemen and were rated a sign of respect from their serfs, this carried over to officers and enlisted. A knight was rated a salute from the common soldier, but he in return was obligated to return the salute as a sign of respect for the service of his serf. Now before you get your panties in a wad, I mean serf in the original term, not as a minion. As such, since the sergeant was enlisted, he was not rated a salute to be initiated, but is rated a salute in return. It is just as much of a violation to not return a salute as it is to not give one. Finally, you are telling me that because you showed a person disrespect, you have one up on me????? That's something to take pride in? I've had tools for commanding officer and no matter how tired or how much of a tool they were, I showed them the respect due to them by their rank. I had too much pride in myself and my service to be unprofessional as to flip someone off.

[Variable Wind]

And how is giving them the finger showing how professional you are? If you truly had more experience than them, you would have approached them in a mature manner and corrected them. Instead, you showed with your behavior that you learned nothing from your time in the service.

I was a professional soldier, not a baby sitter. Maybe you appreciate molly coddling young cadets, but I for one dont answer to them...did I say that giving them the finger was to be an example to them about professionalism? no, it was an instance where they can learn that us enlisted folks dont give a rats-rear-end what they think, because they are still just scrubs.

Perhaps youve never witnessed a deployment where the junior enlisted completely carried the unit, but I have and I learned just how incompetent officers can be if they do not act mature themselves...or maybe you have and you are just in denial.

[Variable Wind]

Go argue with the watll, VW. Seems you enjoy doing it and the wall might actually listen better than you do.

Perhaps one day you might read and realize why most of those points you made don't apply to me at all.

Out and see 'ya!

Does it hurt your pride to know that some e-nothing just went clear over your head or are you always this stubborn. Either way thanks for helping my case here.

[acesfilter]

The thing is that a psg is the civilian equivalent of a foreman and the LT is the equivalent of a junior manager.

This is a moot point, not to mention insulting. You're insinuating that an NCO is not a manager of sorts. Yet technically, a commissioned officer isn't directly held accountable for personnel until they become a commander.

The bottom line is that the LT is one in command and makes the ultimate decision. What you don't get is that an officer has to start from somewhere. Somewhere along the line, you have to give the person the ability to make decisions and to either succeed or fall flat on their face. Going by what you said, I do agree that experience trumps rank, but how are you going to have an experienced officer unless you give them the experience?

Last time I checked, it pretty much works that way with enlisted now. You come in as a PVT, work your way up with both formal and on-the-job training, then eventually become recommended for NCO status--a managerial position. It's no less managerial than being an officer. Only difference is NCOs train Soldiers. Officers make command decisions.

Yes, you can have a 32 year old SFC command a platoon, but who then will command the company, battalion, brigade, etc? By your timeline, you'll end up with 60 year old battalion commanders and that is just as bad as having an inexperienced leader in charge of a platoon.

That's a bit of a stretch. I never said an officer should wait 20 years to make COL. I said commanders should be encouraging their platoon leaders to actually train next to their PSGs, at least at first. Sometimes it works. But it seems like the units I've witnessed, this doesn't happen a lot of the time. Some people don't deserve such responsibility because they are arrogant.

What I found was that LTs either learn fast or they were relieved of their commands.

Or they simply do their 4 (long enough to make CPT) and get out...or "gracefully decline".

I, as with all the other officers, made mistakes when I was a LT. However, that is how you learn. If you can honestly say that you didn't make mistakes as a junior enlisted, then I'll agree with you and say change the system. Otherwise, cut them some slack.

Not my point, but way to deflect the imperfection speech. I actually listened to my trainers as a young Soldier. Can't say that's usually the case with certain LTs I've come across.

[acesfilter]

Finally, you are telling me that because you showed a person disrespect, you have one up on me????? That's something to take pride in? I've had tools for commanding officer and no matter how tired or how much of a tool they were, I showed them the respect due to them by their rank. I had too much pride in myself and my service to be unprofessional as to flip someone off.

First, I think you got me confused with someone else about the flipping someone off part.

Second, I already admitted what I did was wrong despite the fact that this so-called "leader" was a complete tool.

Third, earlier you said that you bet none of us would be so disrespecting were we not hiding behind our own anonymity or something to that effect. I decided to make a case in point by stating that I have already told a few corrupt superiors how I thought their way of leading Soldiers was dangerous and self defeating. However, over the years, I have become a lot more tactful with this. I will still call someone out if they make a bad call. But I make sure to do it when no subordinates are around for the yelling contest which normally ensues.

Most of the time, I manage to raise a good point. But I also know when to back down and when and where to choose my battles.

[silentscope1987]

2 Air Force JROTC commanders reprimanded


Now I was never in JROTC, but isnt it supposed to simulate being in the military?



I was in JROTC and no, the JROTC program's mission is to "Build better citizens for America". When I joined the program I did with the same impression but was saddly mistaken. We did carry the same core values and be did teach alot of the Aerospace Science end of it and sometimes even had recruiters come down to breif our unit on the different branches of the military. However the goal of JROTC was always to "Instill in High School students the values of citizenship service to the United States and a sense of accomplishment". Never to train future Armed Forces members. I joined the military but my wife who also went through the program never had and still does not have the intention of joining the military.

[light_scout]

[QUOTE=AIRFORCEAGGIE;218449]The thing is that a psg is the civilian equivalent of a foreman and the LT is the equivalent of a junior manager. QUOTE]

Maybe in the Air Force, not in the Army. Life is not usually that black and white. In the Infantry your reasoning just does not work where the patrol is often led at the Squad and Team level, and where contact is at the lowest level where NCOs are leading troops in combat. This is reality, hence the term "The Strategic Squad Leader". As an aside, your reasoning would not work in Special Operations either.

I do agree that an NCOs job is to train their LTs, and work closely with the Company Commanders and Battalion Commanders. But to sit there and inform us all that an LT outranks Senior NCOs, Command Sergeant Majors, etc., is asinine at best. While we would all like to look at the military and say we follow a military version of civil law, we really more closely resemble common law, with a military twist. The Army and the roles of the junior officer and senior NCO have changed much over the last decade, and OIF and OEF has dramatically changed the Combat Arms portion of the Army. You could not easily, and in this blog cover the dynamics of leadership in a combat environment, it would be far too difficult. I expect you will continue to see change in the enlisted (NCO) and Officer corp as we develop and adapt to our new environments and the demands our missions and our country put on us. Only change is guaranteed and nothing is ever really black and white, more like various shades of gray. NCOs and Officers both work together in order to accomplish the mission.

As for posters being disrespectful to officers...you are 100% wrong. There is no excuse for it. It is unprofessional and does not fit our values.

[kojack]

When I was back on AD for this last go-round, I was amazed at how officers acted and how many of the company-grade officers simply wanted nothing to do with NCOs OR to be held accountable for their soldiers. The young officers often told me that "they" dont make corrections or supervise NCOs, oversee even the collective tasks at platoon or company level, and were not responsible the events in the unit. Many of these young officers had majors and LTCs telling them that. I heard field grade officers humilating LTs in front of the unit. In one case, a LT said the divison Cdr told officers that officers had no authority over NCOs. And as I posted earlier, many of the officers CONSTANTLY apologized for themselves to the troops. In fact, obama reminded me of the officers doing it when he apologized for America to the dictators. I saw LTs actually like being directed and viewed as a aprivate, cleaning up and picking up after NCOS in the TOC and not being addressed as an officer.

The US Army officer corps is a sad, sad group of people who are not professional

[Variable Wind]

As for posters being disrespectful to officers...you are 100% wrong. There is no excuse for it. It is unprofessional and does not fit our values.

The rest of your post is excellent. But the topic was raised concerning the attitude towards ROTC cadets, and officers thinking its okay for them to act that way...probably because they did the same themselves.

[acesfilter]

As for posters being disrespectful to officers...you are 100% wrong. There is no excuse for it. It is unprofessional and does not fit our values.

Adding to what V dub touched on here...so bare with me.

All was well until this statement here. See above; I already acknowledged my own wrongfulness at the time and made zero excuses. At the same time, one has to ask: what happened to standards? Why aren't officers (specifically referring to cadets and LTs here) held to the same standard as their subordinates?

Respect works both ways. So if an experienced NCO respectfully tries to coach and guide a brand new LT and said LT attempts to run the platoon as if they know everything because they went to college once, I'm probably going to let that junior officer fall flat on their face simply to prove a point.

Additionally, you have to learn how to follow before you can learn how to lead. That means...appreciating your subordinates for what they provide to their respective unit. Everyone contributes something. That's what a lot of people fail to remember.

[Skyhawk]

I cannot believe how stubbornly you two are defending the indefensible. This thread is no longer about JROTC, ROTC, or anything else except manners!

You think it's a sign of weakness to preserve your self-respect and dignity and maintain a professional bearing. That is amazing. Both of you are going to steadfastly insist it is proper and understandable to make an obscene gesture to two cadets and then try to differentiate it based upon rank and military service status. Shame on both of you!

This type of condescension isn't a light switch one can turn on and off at whim. If you are capable to being so overtly rude and anti-social to a couple of cadets (or condone and support such conduct) then that type of mentality finds its way throughout your daily conduct in the military.

Fortunately, such attitudes are the minority within the military. Arguments arise all the time due to the nature of the business. But we don't toss aside our civility when we council, admonish, or even punish. I see an overall erosion of basic decorum within society today, particularly among the youth. It is worrisome. Young people should be raised to respect people they come in contact with and bad behavior begets bad behavior.

Even within this forum it is uncalled for and counterproductive. Unfortunately, it appears certain neither of you two will pause to consider what I'm saying nor come to understand the harm said couthless conduct really causes.

[acesfilter]

Even within this forum it is uncalled for and counterproductive. Unfortunately, it appears certain neither of you two will pause to consider what I'm saying nor come to understand the harm said couthless conduct really causes.

Actually, the same could be said about you. I guess that makes us even.

[Variable Wind]

I cannot believe how stubbornly you two are defending the indefensible. This thread is no longer about JROTC, ROTC, or anything else except manners!
Is that a direct order that we only talk about manners?...haha sorry I cant take this statement seriously.

You think it's a sign of weakness to preserve your self-respect and dignity and maintain a professional bearing. That is amazing. Both of you are going to steadfastly insist it is proper and understandable to make an obscene gesture to two cadets and then try to differentiate it based upon rank and military service status. Shame on both of you!
Wow you really did miss the boat didnt you. I didnt walk up to some cadets and say "Hey buttheads *flip bird*" just because they were cadets. I did so because a group of them stopped me from what I was doing in an effort to get me to salute them. This debate went from me trying to rationally tell them that they had no standing concerning me as they have recieved no commission, to the point where their elitist attitude and sophomoric behavior did more than my patience could withstand, I had other things to do, so I broke things down to them simply: I dont care, go suck sand.

This type of condescension isn't a light switch one can turn on and off at whim. If you are capable to being so overtly rude and anti-social to a couple of cadets (or condone and support such conduct) then that type of mentality finds its way throughout your daily conduct in the military.
Maybe with you its too difficult, but for rational people who are able to deal with everyday life on a case-by-case basis, this isnt too simple of a task. The only time I have been accused of stepping out of line with an officer was a major who was asking me to do something that was counter to the BC's SOP. Some officers just cannot take no for an answer...perhaps you are one of them.

Fortunately, such attitudes are the minority within the military. Arguments arise all the time due to the nature of the business. But we don't toss aside our civility when we council, admonish, or even punish. I see an overall erosion of basic decorum within society today, particularly among the youth. It is worrisome. Young people should be raised to respect people they come in contact with and bad behavior begets bad behavior.
Hmm...seems like you are walking around with your blinders on if you think that such an attitude isnt commonly occuring within the ranks. I think you have totally lost touch with what this discussion was really about and instead are lashing out with some hurt pride that someone can actually hold an officer candidate accountable for their actions...perhaps if someone had done so to you, we wouldnt be having this conversation.

Even within this forum it is uncalled for and counterproductive. Unfortunately, it appears certain neither of you two will pause to consider what I'm saying nor come to understand the harm said couthless conduct really causes.
I considered it, and I consider it pointless and lame. It has absolutely no bearing on the discussion. The point was that officers with your attitude allow Cadets to get away with murder when it comes to dealing with enlisted personnel and that kind of officer rearing is what is really counterproductive, especially when you have young enlisted guys like myself with an equal or greater amount of education.

[Pueblo]

When I was back on AD for this last go-round, I was amazed at how officers acted and how many of the company-grade officers simply wanted nothing to do with NCOs OR to be held accountable for their soldiers. The young officers often told me that "they" dont make corrections or supervise NCOs, oversee even the collective tasks at platoon or company level, and were not responsible the events in the unit. Many of these young officers had majors and LTCs telling them that. I heard field grade officers humilating LTs in front of the unit. In one case, a LT said the divison Cdr told officers that officers had no authority over NCOs. And as I posted earlier, many of the officers CONSTANTLY apologized for themselves to the troops. In fact, obama reminded me of the officers doing it when he apologized for America to the dictators. I saw LTs actually like being directed and viewed as a aprivate, cleaning up and picking up after NCOS in the TOC and not being addressed as an officer.

The US Army officer corps is a sad, sad group of people who are not professional

I've read a lot about what you've watched, but what did you ever do to fix the problem or otherwise improve the situation?

[Measure Man]

Junior ROTC teacher in NY faces porn charges

The Associated Press
Posted : Friday May 1, 2009 8:40:28 EDT

RIVERHEAD, N.Y. — A Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps teacher at a Long Island high school faces a charge of possessing child pornography.

Suffolk County police say James Finch is scheduled for arraignment on Friday in Riverhead Town Court.

The name of his attorney was not yet on record.

Police say Finch is a retired Navy officer who teaches at Riverhead High School.

He was arrested Thursday. Police seized two computers from his home.

http://www.militarytimes.com/news/2009/05/ap_navy_jrrotc_teacher_050109/

[acesfilter]

http://www.militarytimes.com/news/2009/05/ap_navy_jrrotc_teacher_050109/

I hope this sicko wasn't watching this garbage at work. That would be stupid.

[WILDJOKER5]

I hope this sicko wasn't watching this garbage at work. That would be stupid.

You know, I think there has been way too much sexual deviants in the military media for the past few years. What needs to be done about it?

[acesfilter]

You know, I think there has been way too much sexual deviants in the military media for the past few years. What needs to be done about it?

Background check prior to entering service?

No...they should simply enforce the rules which are already in place. Can't catch everyone, but if someone is dumb enough to get caught hosting that garbage, they deserve to have their name printed in the paper and have the book thrown at them.

[WILDJOKER5]

True. Backround checks only work if the got caught before.

[Skyhawk]

It's still one bad apple among hundreds of others doing their jobs properly. Rational policy is not founded upon the actions of the extreme bad. Rather it is focused on giving the 99.5% the latitude they need to remain effective in their jobs.

In the end, we have laws to deal with the 0.5% who act in this manner, whether at work or at home. This event is nice for a news story and a headline, and perhaps even for a few to rail against a system they don't fully understand but nevertheless feel a visceral need to tarnish.

But neither does any of that constitute rational policy or thought -- just unbridled expression.

[Proud Mom]

But if you look at it in context to the ratio of those caught in the military society vs the ratio of those caught in the general civilian society I don't think theres really anymore than usual but the technology to catch them is better and the ones in the military seem to garner more media attention.

[Pueblo]

But if you look at it in context to the ratio of those caught in the military society vs the ratio of those caught in the general civilian society I don't think theres really anymore than usual but the technology to catch them is better and the ones in the military seem to garner more media attention.

Correct. Active duty military is far more interested in sexually exploiting women who are over 18.

[Skyhawk]

2 Air Force JROTC commanders reprimanded

The Associated Press
Posted : Wednesday Apr 1, 2009 10:37:45 EDT

TUCSON, Ariz. — Two Junior ROTC leaders have been written up for using intimidation and exercise as punishment.

The Tucson Unified School District said Master Sgt. Mark R. Wagner was the subject of an anonymous letter from a cadet at Tucson’s Catalina Magnet High School alleging physical and oral harassment.

A district spokeswoman said Wagner will get a letter of reprimand Friday.

His supervisor, retired Air Force Col. August De Rosa, got a letter of direction that offers guidance and instruction and steps on how to correct behavior.

An investigation revealed the two violated district policy by using profane language and intimidation, threats, coercion or abuse and violated Air Force JROTC policy related to physical discipline, physical activity as punishment, and harassment (improper or abusive language).

Both men declined comment.

Now I was never in JROTC, but isnt it supposed to simulate being in the military?

Welcome to the emasculation of our culture!

I am confident that the "intimidation" was nothing more than raising the voice to motivate. I am confident that the "exercise" was ordering cadets to "drop and give me 20!" Pushups being considered reason to censure the JROTC instructor is another indication of our society in decay.

I wonder how much worse it all keeps getting before it reaches critical mass and our society fails. There is nearly a total lack of masculine style discipline in high schools today. In my day, the principal literally had a wooden paddle with holes drilled for immediate and unquestioned corporal punishment. And he used it!

Today, he'd be put in jail! In my day, parents told him, "More, more, more, sir!"

There is woefully inadequate discipline in society today and our youth are not taught to respect institutions that pre-dated their birth and served society valuably for decades. It is time to get the weak-minded educators out of the high school system and restore the classic values and mores. The effeminate trend has caused great harm and must be replaced. Those responsible for these erosions are blind to their foolishness and nothing less than force resignations will adequately address the problems.

[kojack]

Welcome to the emasculation of our culture!

I am confident that the "intimidation" was nothing more than raising the voice to motivate. I am confident that the "exercise" was ordering cadets to "drop and give me 20!" Pushups being considered reason to censure the JROTC instructor is another indication of our society in decay.

I wonder how much worse it all keeps getting before it reaches critical mass and our society fails. There is nearly a total lack of masculine style discipline in high schools today. In my day, the principal literally had a wooden paddle with holes drilled for immediate and unquestioned corporal punishment. And he used it!

Today, he's be put in jail!

There is woefully inadequate discipline in society today and our youth are not taught to respect institutions that pre-dated their birth and served society valuably for decades. It is time to get the weak-minded educators out of the high school system and restore the classic values and mores. The effeminate trend has caused great harm and must be replaced.

Good post skyhawk. agree 100 percent. Our society IS failing-total collapse will come. Thats what the hyphenated marxist bigot whats. Amazing+Imstill wondering how the bigot and the dem-nazis have access to classified information. You'd think hanging out with domestic terrorists would nullify that but I guess its different standards for criminal community organziers.

The issue of the JRTC receiving letters of censor is another reason for not having anything to do with it. The cadets "know more" than the instrctors and of course, anyone in any authority position is automatically wrong. Everyting in America is upside down and what is evil and wrong is now "right" Thank a dem-nazi.

We all think this is bad now. the bigot wants to put activists that feel and understand african americans, illegal alliens , single mommies, criminals etc in the Supreme Court as justices. Qualifications and actual laws dont matter+its how the new leftist justice "feels" about "things". We'll probably have a member of the Bloods or MS-13 as the next justice. Poor old America wont survive this. the obama is wiping his filthy racist, marxist ass will our Constitution and American values. We are under attack from within and the obama is far more dangerous than any foreign terrorist.

[Pueblo]

The issue of the JRTC receiving letters of censor is another reason for not having anything to do with it. The cadets "know more" than the instrctors and of course, anyone in any authority position is automatically wrong.

That's a strange criticism coming from someone who thinks the entire officer corps military-wide should be eliminated.

[Variable Wind]

Welcome to the emasculation of our culture!

I am confident that the "intimidation" was nothing more than raising the voice to motivate. I am confident that the "exercise" was ordering cadets to "drop and give me 20!" Pushups being considered reason to censure the JROTC instructor is another indication of our society in decay.

I wonder how much worse it all keeps getting before it reaches critical mass and our society fails. There is nearly a total lack of masculine style discipline in high schools today. In my day, the principal literally had a wooden paddle with holes drilled for immediate and unquestioned corporal punishment. And he used it!

Today, he'd be put in jail! In my day, parents told him, "More, more, more, sir!"

There is woefully inadequate discipline in society today and our youth are not taught to respect institutions that pre-dated their birth and served society valuably for decades. It is time to get the weak-minded educators out of the high school system and restore the classic values and mores. The effeminate trend has caused great harm and must be replaced. Those responsible for these erosions are blind to their foolishness and nothing less than force resignations will adequately address the problems.

I will admit that the wussification of america is being run full throttle right now. Something can be said for certain officers who make excuses for ROTC cadets (I wonder who THAT could be?) But I have to disagree with your assertation that simply because an insitution pre-dates my birth that I must respect it. An institution is only as respectable as its integrity. If an institution doesnt hold its integrity in a high regard and keep high standards, then how can you expect respect? Perhaps just demanding respect while facilitating a double standard is another method, but we have all seen how thats working out.

[WILDJOKER5]

I will admit that the wussification of america is being run full throttle right now. Something can be said for certain officers who make excuses for ROTC cadets (I wonder who THAT could be?) But I have to disagree with your assertation that simply because an insitution pre-dates my birth that I must respect it. An institution is only as respectable as its integrity. If an institution doesnt hold its integrity in a high regard and keep high standards, then how can you expect respect? Perhaps just demanding respect while facilitating a double standard is another method, but we have all seen how thats working out.

How old is NAMBLA? Does it deserve respect for being an established organization for years?

[BLUEFAM22]

Retired enlisted instruct JROTC, but only Officers (mostly Active Duty) instruct AFROTC at the college level. The two programs serve entirely separate purposes. In a nutshell (because I'm too lazy to look up the actual mission statements), High School JROTC helps children build charactor and guide them to become responsible adults, and Air Force ROTC, is one of three primary AF commissioning sources.

The purpose of JROTC is to "motivate young Americans to become better citizens." The purpose of ROTC is to prepare a college student to become a 2LT. I can say that it truly does depend on the school and the branch. I've been in Army JROTC and ROTC, and the cadets and cadre carry themselves 10 times better than the cadre for the Air Force counterparts. It even goes down to the basics; like getting a haircut before you put on your damn uniform, or even ironing the damn BDU's before you put them on.

[AIRFORCEAGGIE]

I was a professional soldier, not a baby sitter. Maybe you appreciate molly coddling young cadets, but I for one dont answer to them...did I say that giving them the finger was to be an example to them about professionalism? no, it was an instance where they can learn that us enlisted folks dont give a rats-rear-end what they think, because they are still just scrubs.

Perhaps youve never witnessed a deployment where the junior enlisted completely carried the unit, but I have and I learned just how incompetent officers can be if they do not act mature themselves...or maybe you have and you are just in denial.

Oh spare me the bullshxt working class hero crap. For every instance of an incompetent officer you can quote, I can tell you of instances where junior enlisted have screwed off. The one in denial is you, Variable. You are so blinded by your hate of officers that you can't look at it objectively. Also, I call bullshxt on your story. I have never heard of a cadet trying to order an enlisted around. For the most part, it was the opposite. While a cadet, we had an excellent cadre of enlisted military advisors. Rather than looking down on them, we looked to them for advice and training. That's because the majority of us recognize that the military is a team. I seriously doubt what you said as the incident ever really happened.

[AIRFORCEAGGIE]

This is a moot point, not to mention insulting. You're insinuating that an NCO is not a manager of sorts. Yet technically, a commissioned officer isn't directly held accountable for personnel until they become a commander.



Last time I checked, it pretty much works that way with enlisted now. You come in as a PVT, work your way up with both formal and on-the-job training, then eventually become recommended for NCO status--a managerial position. It's no less managerial than being an officer. Only difference is NCOs train Soldiers. Officers make command decisions.



That's a bit of a stretch. I never said an officer should wait 20 years to make COL. I said commanders should be encouraging their platoon leaders to actually train next to their PSGs, at least at first. Sometimes it works. But it seems like the units I've witnessed, this doesn't happen a lot of the time. Some people don't deserve such responsibility because they are arrogant.



Or they simply do their 4 (long enough to make CPT) and get out...or "gracefully decline".



Not my point, but way to deflect the imperfection speech. I actually listened to my trainers as a young Soldier. Can't say that's usually the case with certain LTs I've come across.


and nice broad brush. Please, don't give me that working class hero bs. There is a difference between management and command. An officer commands. Period. If you don't like it, tough, because that is the system. Has been since the first centurion answered to his tribune and will be always. What you don't get is that officers and enlisted are on different tracks. They have different roles. All I hear are complaints on the system, but no alternatives. How would you seriously expect officers to have experience if you don't ever give them a command as a junior officer? And please, not that old tired myth of making all officers enlisted before they get a commission. I was enlisted before I was an officer. All being prior enlisted does is makes you a better prior enlisted. Being an officer is an entirely different ball game. You need to get over your hatred of officers. Not all officers are bad, just as not all enlisted are ROAD or getting into barfights all of the time.

[Variable Wind]

Oh spare me the bullshxt working class hero crap. For every instance of an incompetent officer you can quote, I can tell you of instances where junior enlisted have screwed off.
And you would have a 1:1 ratio, not too great if you consider the amount of training given to each and the numbers. The excuse "well your side is bad too" does not vindicate your arguement. Granted, there are plenty of junior enlisted that fit that criteria, but they are also normall under 20 years old. A 2LT is at minimum a 21/22 year old.

The one in denial is you, Variable. You are so blinded by your hate of officers that you can't look at it objectively.
Yes, Im so blinded by hate because I have witnessed those events happened and brought attention to them and you vehemenently attack me for reacting to it. So who lacks objectivity? Yeah, that would be you.

Also, I call bullshxt on your story. I have never heard of a cadet trying to order an enlisted around. For the most part, it was the opposite. While a cadet, we had an excellent cadre of enlisted military advisors. Rather than looking down on them, we looked to them for advice and training. That's because the majority of us recognize that the military is a team. I seriously doubt what you said as the incident ever really happened.
Okay then I call "bullshxt" on your story too. Thanks for contributing absolutely nothing to the debate.

[AIRFORCEAGGIE]

First, I think you got me confused with someone else about the flipping someone off part.

Second, I already admitted what I did was wrong despite the fact that this so-called "leader" was a complete tool.

Third, earlier you said that you bet none of us would be so disrespecting were we not hiding behind our own anonymity or something to that effect. I decided to make a case in point by stating that I have already told a few corrupt superiors how I thought their way of leading Soldiers was dangerous and self defeating. However, over the years, I have become a lot more tactful with this. I will still call someone out if they make a bad call. But I make sure to do it when no subordinates are around for the yelling contest which normally ensues.

Most of the time, I manage to raise a good point. But I also know when to back down and when and where to choose my battles.


ok, fair enough. if I mistaken you for someone else, then I apologize for that.

[Variable Wind]

Please, don't give me that working class hero bs.
Are you done repeating yourself yet?

There is a difference between management and command. An officer commands. Period. If you don't like it, tough, because that is the system. Has been since the first centurion answered to his tribune and will be always.
That was back when enlisted werent coming out with equal educational backgrounds and seemingly more common sense. And guess what, they had bad commanders then too. Ill let aces take it from here though.

[acesfilter]

and nice broad brush. Please, don't give me that working class hero bs. There is a difference between management and command. An officer commands. Period. If you don't like it, tough, because that is the system. Has been since the first centurion answered to his tribune and will be always. What you don't get is that officers and enlisted are on different tracks. They have different roles. All I hear are complaints on the system, but no alternatives. How would you seriously expect officers to have experience if you don't ever give them a command as a junior officer? And please, not that old tired myth of making all officers enlisted before they get a commission. I was enlisted before I was an officer. All being prior enlisted does is makes you a better prior enlisted. Being an officer is an entirely different ball game. You need to get over your hatred of officers. Not all officers are bad, just as not all enlisted are ROAD or getting into barfights all of the time.

Took you a week and a half to come up with all that, did it? Why don't you take that sage like advice of yours about not hating all officers (even though I never stated I held hatred for anyone) and apply it to your apparent contempt for enlisted who don't always see eye to eye with junior officers 100% of the time?

Nothing wrong with being commissioned; but in your case I see why you crossed over.

[AIRFORCEAGGIE]

[QUOTE=AIRFORCEAGGIE;218449]The thing is that a psg is the civilian equivalent of a foreman and the LT is the equivalent of a junior manager. QUOTE]

Maybe in the Air Force, not in the Army. Life is not usually that black and white. In the Infantry your reasoning just does not work where the patrol is often led at the Squad and Team level, and where contact is at the lowest level where NCOs are leading troops in combat. This is reality, hence the term "The Strategic Squad Leader". As an aside, your reasoning would not work in Special Operations either.

I do agree that an NCOs job is to train their LTs, and work closely with the Company Commanders and Battalion Commanders. But to sit there and inform us all that an LT outranks Senior NCOs, Command Sergeant Majors, etc., is asinine at best. While we would all like to look at the military and say we follow a military version of civil law, we really more closely resemble common law, with a military twist. The Army and the roles of the junior officer and senior NCO have changed much over the last decade, and OIF and OEF has dramatically changed the Combat Arms portion of the Army. You could not easily, and in this blog cover the dynamics of leadership in a combat environment, it would be far too difficult. I expect you will continue to see change in the enlisted (NCO) and Officer corp as we develop and adapt to our new environments and the demands our missions and our country put on us. Only change is guaranteed and nothing is ever really black and white, more like various shades of gray. NCOs and Officers both work together in order to accomplish the mission.

As for posters being disrespectful to officers...you are 100% wrong. There is no excuse for it. It is unprofessional and does not fit our values.

Maybe things are different in the light infantry. I was mechanized infantry and cav scout as an enlisted man. Our platoon sergeant ran things, but the ultimate decision was still with the platoon leader. Then again, when I was enlisted, we rarely ran things smaller than at platoon level. So, I will agree with you that maybe things have changed. Also, while a senior nco has more de facto authority and influence in an unit, as he should be due to his experience, a lieutenant still has de jure authority and rank over even the most senior nco. Does that mean a second lieutenant will give orders to a sergeant major? Not likely, but so long as the LT is an officer and the Sgt Major is enlisted, the LT still outranks the SGTMAJ. Finally, I was in agreement with you on being disrespectful to officers as wrong. It is also just as disrespectful to demean your men when you are an officer. That was something I took very seriously, too.

[Variable Wind]

Maybe things are different in the light infantry. I was mechanized infantry and cav scout as an enlisted man. Our platoon sergeant ran things, but the ultimate decision was still with the platoon leader. Then again, when I was enlisted, we rarely ran things smaller than at platoon level. So, I will agree with you that maybe things have changed. Also, while a senior nco has more de facto authority and influence in an unit, as he should be due to his experience, a lieutenant still has de jure authority and rank over even the most senior nco. Does that mean a second lieutenant will give orders to a sergeant major? Not likely, but so long as the LT is an officer and the Sgt Major is enlisted, the LT still outranks the SGTMAJ. Finally, I was in agreement with you on being disrespectful to officers as wrong. It is also just as disrespectful to demean your men when you are an officer. That was something I took very seriously, too.

Yeah, and the best BCs always make sure that little LTs who pull that crap never do it twice.

[AIRFORCEAGGIE]

I will admit that the wussification of america is being run full throttle right now. Something can be said for certain officers who make excuses for ROTC cadets (I wonder who THAT could be?) But I have to disagree with your assertation that simply because an insitution pre-dates my birth that I must respect it. An institution is only as respectable as its integrity. If an institution doesnt hold its integrity in a high regard and keep high standards, then how can you expect respect? Perhaps just demanding respect while facilitating a double standard is another method, but we have all seen how thats working out.


oh, suck it, Variable. I never condoned their behavior. I just said BS, because it is so uncharacteristic of most rotc cadets to even dream to do something like that. Even if they did what they did, it doesn't excuse you from your behavior. I once had an incident where one of my LTs disrespected one of my enlisted in my section. I corrected the enlisted man on the spot for talking back to the LT. However, I then took the LT to my office and reamed him a good one for his behavior. The problem is that most enlisted think officers get away with things is because they don't see us getting disciplined in front of them. Well, to do so would be poor leadership on the commander's part because then it undercuts the authority of the officer in question. I would do the same for a senior nco. You never, ever discipline someone in front of their troops. No matter how wrong they are. get it now?

[AIRFORCEAGGIE]

And you would have a 1:1 ratio, not too great if you consider the amount of training given to each and the numbers. The excuse "well your side is bad too" does not vindicate your arguement. Granted, there are plenty of junior enlisted that fit that criteria, but they are also normall under 20 years old. A 2LT is at minimum a 21/22 year old.


Yes, Im so blinded by hate because I have witnessed those events happened and brought attention to them and you vehemenently attack me for reacting to it. So who lacks objectivity? Yeah, that would be you.


Okay then I call "bullshxt" on your story too. Thanks for contributing absolutely nothing to the debate.

grow up variable. you're just being contrary for the sake of being contrary. My point with the first comment is that you can't say that all officers are bad, just as I can't say that all enlisted are screwoffs. I vehemently attack bullshxt because the chances of what you said actually occurring is so unlikely that it is unbelievable. Cadets are trained and counseled on how to interact with enlisted. Just because you said so, does not mean it is true. It's like me saying that Marines are fruitloops because I saw a bunch of them dancing in leotards. That is so uncharacteristic of Marines that anyone who knows about them would say that I was not telling the truth. It is the same with your story of cadets. It is so uncharacteristic of what cadets are and trained as that I find the credibility of that story to be in question. Also, if you truly are a professional and have so much more real world experienc than those cadets, than teach them. Flipping them off did nothing for you other than to show that you have no manners. How is that for adding to the debate? It takes more than cutting and pasting to put your point across.

[Variable Wind]

oh, suck it, Variable. I never condoned their behavior.
Really? because completely ignoring it to "educate" me on what I did wrong sure makes it sound like you do. This is the first time you actually addressed what they did, you certainly havent NOT condoned it.

I just said BS, because it is so uncharacteristic of most rotc cadets to even dream to do something like that.
Out-of-touch.

Even if they did what they did, it doesn't excuse you from your behavior. I once had an incident where one of my LTs disrespected one of my enlisted in my section. I corrected the enlisted man on the spot for talking back to the LT. However, I then took the LT to my office and reamed him a good one for his behavior. The problem is that most enlisted think officers get away with things is because they don't see us getting disciplined in front of them.
Yes, because equating my disrespect for some cadets with absolutely NO rank over me who were acting like children equals disrespecting an officer: Mind you something that I have never done.

Well, to do so would be poor leadership on the commander's part because then it undercuts the authority of the officer in question. I would do the same for a senior nco. You never, ever discipline someone in front of their troops. No matter how wrong they are. get it now?
Yes, sir, sir....never question any decision, no matter how dead wrong, sir!!! :rolleyes:

[AIRFORCEAGGIE]

Took you a week and a half to come up with all that, did it? Why don't you take that sage like advice of yours about not hating all officers (even though I never stated I held hatred for anyone) and apply it to your apparent contempt for enlisted who don't always see eye to eye with junior officers 100% of the time?

Nothing wrong with being commissioned; but in your case I see why you crossed over.


It's called having a life. I was on vacation. I don't have contempt towards enlisted. What I was upset with is the lack of respect for rank and authority that you are advocating. There is no excuse for that. As I stated before, I had tools for commanders in the past, yet I never showed them the contempt that you did by flipping off that LT. Even if he was a complete incompetent, it wasn't your place to show open contempt like that.

[AIRFORCEAGGIE]

Are you done repeating yourself yet?


That was back when enlisted werent coming out with equal educational backgrounds and seemingly more common sense. And guess what, they had bad commanders then too. Ill let aces take it from here though.

and they still aren't. only 5% of the enlisted have completed a bachelors versus 100% of the officers. Now how is that of equal educational background?

[acesfilter]

Yes, sir, sir....never question any decision, no matter how dead wrong, sir!!! :rolleyes:

Hahaha! Dear Lord, that was funny!

[acesfilter]

It's called having a life. I was on vacation.

Fair enough. Where'd you go--Amish city?

[AIRFORCEAGGIE]

Really? because completely ignoring it to "educate" me on what I did wrong sure makes it sound like you do. This is the first time you actually addressed what they did, you certainly havent NOT condoned it.


Out-of-touch.


Yes, because equating my disrespect for some cadets with absolutely NO rank over me who were acting like children equals disrespecting an officer: Mind you something that I have never done.


Yes, sir, sir....never question any decision, no matter how dead wrong, sir!!! :rolleyes:


sounds like you didn't get your nap. Maybe it's time you had a timeout. What you don't get is that you are trying to justify your poor behavior. It doesn't matter what their rank was or their authority over you. What you did was uncouth and reflected poorly on you. It is no different if they were civilians spitting on you. You don't sink to their level and that is what you aren't getting.

[acesfilter]

and they still aren't. only 5% of the enlisted have completed a bachelors versus 100% of the officers. Now how is that of equal educational background?

See, that statement alone sounded arrogant. But it's only true because it's a requirement. And so your point again would be...

[Variable Wind]

grow up variable. you're just being contrary for the sake of being contrary. My point with the first comment is that you can't say that all officers are bad, just as I can't say that all enlisted are screwoffs.
Sorry to burst your bubble, I never said all officers are bad. I said it is characteristic for the Officer corp to facilitate the disrespectful attitude of SOME CADETS. Way to completely misunderstand simple english.

I vehemently attack bullshxt because the chances of what you said actually occurring is so unlikely that it is unbelievable. Cadets are trained and counseled on how to interact with enlisted. Just because you said so, does not mean it is true.
And just because you dont believe me doesnt mean it doesnt happen, as others have pointed out, there are others who have had similar encounters of cadets acting stupid. Its okay, I know you do not trust the word of enlisted, because youre an officer who is here to remind me how to eat my food lest I starve myself for not knowing Im hungry. :rolleyes:

It's like me saying that Marines are fruitloops because I saw a bunch of them dancing in leotards. That is so uncharacteristic of Marines that anyone who knows about them would say that I was not telling the truth. It is the same with your story of cadets. It is so uncharacteristic of what cadets are and trained as that I find the credibility of that story to be in question. Also, if you truly are a professional and have so much more real world experienc than those cadets, than teach them.
Again, you are so out of touch, you cannot hold someone accountable for anything. Using your logic I guess we should say that there is absolutely no way that any cadet does anything wrong because they have been councsled on it. :rolleyes: Again, Im not the babysitter for those brats and if you had the common sense to understand the story, you would realize that I tried rationalizing with them first and it became quickly apparent that I was talking to a brick wall...much like right now.

Flipping them off did nothing for you other than to show that you have no manners. How is that for adding to the debate? It takes more than cutting and pasting to put your point across.
It did more than that, it showed them that A) I dont care who they are and B) they couldnt do anything about it

[AIRFORCEAGGIE]

Fair enough. Where'd you go--Amish city?

Grand Caymans. Was there for a week of scuba diving.

[Variable Wind]

and they still aren't. only 5% of the enlisted have completed a bachelors versus 100% of the officers. Now how is that of equal educational background?

Really? Show me that statistic, and then tell me how many E-6s+ have Bachelors. Then lets compare it to the 0% that it used to be.

[AIRFORCEAGGIE]

See, that statement alone sounded arrogant. But it's only true because it's a requirement. And so your point again would be...

that I'm pointing out a fact that enlisted and officers are not of equal educational background. If 100% of the enlisted were of a bachelors or higher, than it would be true. Since when is stating a fact arrogant?

[AIRFORCEAGGIE]

Really? Show me that statistic, and then tell me how many E-6s+ have Bachelors. Then lets compare it to the 0% that it used to be.

http://www.afpc.randolph.af.mil/library/airforcepersonnelstatistics.asp

Enlisted academic education
- 70.56 percent have some semester hours towards a college degree
-- 76 percent of Airmen
-- 77 percent of NCOs
-- 26 percent of senior NCOs
- 18.17 percent have an associate's degree or equivalent semester hours
-- 1.7 percent of Airmen
-- 18 percent of NCOs
-- 51 percent of senior NCOs
- 5.24 percent have a bachelor's degree
-- 1.8 percent of Airmen
-- 3.9 percent of NCOs
-- 18 percent of senior NCOs
- 0.85 percent have a master's degree
-- .02 percent of Airmen
-- .42 percent of NCOs
-- 4.5 percent of senior NCOs
- .01 percent have a professional or doctorate degree


While the AF has a better educated enlisted force than ever before, the numbers clearly show that they do not have the same educational background as officers as you stated. We can do the other services, but they will show about the same numbers.

[AIRFORCEAGGIE]

Sorry to burst your bubble, I never said all officers are bad. I said it is characteristic for the Officer corp to facilitate the disrespectful attitude of SOME CADETS. Way to completely misunderstand simple english.


And just because you dont believe me doesnt mean it doesnt happen, as others have pointed out, there are others who have had similar encounters of cadets acting stupid. Its okay, I know you do not trust the word of enlisted, because youre an officer who is here to remind me how to eat my food lest I starve myself for not knowing Im hungry. :rolleyes:


Again, you are so out of touch, you cannot hold someone accountable for anything. Using your logic I guess we should say that there is absolutely no way that any cadet does anything wrong because they have been councsled on it. :rolleyes: Again, Im not the babysitter for those brats and if you had the common sense to understand the story, you would realize that I tried rationalizing with them first and it became quickly apparent that I was talking to a brick wall...much like right now.


It did more than that, it showed them that A) I dont care who they are and B) they couldnt do anything about it


then fine, wallow in your blue collar hero martydom. Should I call Sears and have them order up the wood for your cross?

[Variable Wind]

sounds like you didn't get your nap. Maybe it's time you had a timeout. What you don't get is that you are trying to justify your poor behavior. It doesn't matter what their rank was or their authority over you. What you did was uncouth and reflected poorly on you. It is no different if they were civilians spitting on you. You don't sink to their level and that is what you aren't getting.

Yeah, no nap sir, punish all dissent no matter how rational.

And I guess you and I come from two different schools of thought, a civilian spits on a soldier and they get a beating...and if a palestinian protestor throws a rock at an isreali soldier, they get shot.

But lets just talk about how you ignoring and just completely denying that Cadets act like jackholes just goes to prove my point all the more. Nothing is more disrespectful than just ignoring another based on their rank which is precisely what you seem to do.

[Variable Wind]

that I'm pointing out a fact that enlisted and officers are not of equal educational background. If 100% of the enlisted were of a bachelors or higher, than it would be true. Since when is stating a fact arrogant?

Yes and also, if an enlisted has a bachelors and the officer has a bachelors, then the officer is still smarter.

DUH! I love your math. :rolleyes:

[AIRFORCEAGGIE]

Yeah, no nap sir, punish all dissent no matter how rational.

And I guess you and I come from two different schools of thought, a civilian spits on a soldier and they get a beating...and if a palestinian protestor throws a rock at an isreali soldier, they get shot.

But lets just talk about how you ignoring and just completely denying that Cadets act like jackholes just goes to prove my point all the more. Nothing is more disrespectful than just ignoring another based on their rank which is precisely what you seem to do.

And the more vehement you try to defend the undefendable, the more you lose in credibility.

[acesfilter]

that I'm pointing out a fact that enlisted and officers are not of equal educational background. If 100% of the enlisted were of a bachelors or higher, than it would be true. Since when is stating a fact arrogant?

Considering that..

A.) This would not be the statistic if it wasn't already a requirement in order to become commissioned and
B.) Possessing a college degree unfortunately does not prevent you from being an idiot

..these figures are just plain unimpressive and irrelevant, imo (you cleverly ignored point A the first time around, btw).

[Variable Wind]

then fine, wallow in your blue collar hero martydom. Should I call Sears and have them order up the wood for your cross?

Might I also suggest that you order a ladder for when you want to get off that high horse, napoleon?

[Variable Wind]

And the more vehement you try to defend the undefendable, the more you lose in credibility.

You are finally starting to grasp what I have been telling you...but youre still missing the mark it seems.

[AIRFORCEAGGIE]

Yes and also, if an enlisted has a bachelors and the officer has a bachelors, then the officer is still smarter.

DUH! I love your math. :rolleyes:

well, I guess 5% versus 100% means equal in your math. You stated a fact that enlisted are of the same educational background as that of officers. I have shown through hard facts that the average enlisted versus the average officer is not. Thus, since you can't prove your false contentions, you resort to name calling. What's next, flipping the bird? I guess so because that is what you know best.

[AIRFORCEAGGIE]

Considering that..

A.) This would not be the statistic if it wasn't already a requirement in order to become commissioned and
B.) Possessing a college degree unfortunately does not prevent you from being an idiot

..these figures are just plain unimpressive and irrelevant, imo (you cleverly ignored point A the first time around, btw).

be as it may, that is what the situation is at the moment. And no, having a college degree does not make you a better person. I was only stating that the officer corps is better educated and not a better group of people. It is simply an untrue myth that the majority of enlisted have a college degree.

[Variable Wind]

well, I guess 5% versus 100% means equal in your math. You stated a fact that enlisted are of the same educational background as that of officers. I have shown through hard facts that the average enlisted versus the average officer is not. Thus, since you can't prove your false contentions, you resort to name calling. What's next, flipping the bird? I guess so because that is what you know best.

At first I assumed (stupid me) that the Aggie meant that you were an A&M graduate...but now I think it just means aggrivating because there is no way you graduated from a university without the reading comprehension skills that you are seriously lacking right now.

I said that there was a presence of enlisted soldiers now who come from equal educational backgrounds. 5% is a presence...do I need to provide a link to an online dictionary to confirm that for you?

[AIRFORCEAGGIE]

At first I assumed (stupid me) that the Aggie meant that you were an A&M graduate...but now I think it just means aggrivating because there is no way you graduated from a university without the reading comprehension skills that you are seriously lacking right now.

I said that there was a presence of enlisted soldiers now who come from equal educational backgrounds. 5% is a presence...do I need to provide a link to an online dictionary to confirm that for you?

"That was back when enlisted werent coming out with equal educational backgrounds and seemingly more common sense. And guess what, they had bad commanders then too. Ill let aces take it from here though."

you stated that enlisted were coming with equal educational backgrounds. Ergo, you are stating that because enlisted are with the same degrees as officers, an officer can't tell an enlisted what to do. What I'm telling you is that the average enlisted does not have the same educational background as the average officer. I show you facts and you throw back insults. Great logic. Finally, even if the enlisted man has the same degree as an officer does not mean he is the positional equal as that officer. It is the same as me saying that I'm the functional equal of a general because I have the same degrees as he does.

[Variable Wind]

"That was back when enlisted werent coming out with equal educational backgrounds and seemingly more common sense. And guess what, they had bad commanders then too. Ill let aces take it from here though."

you stated that enlisted were coming with equal educational backgrounds. Ergo, you are stating that because enlisted are with the same degrees as officers, an officer can't tell an enlisted what to do. What I'm telling you is that the average enlisted does not have the same educational background as the average officer. I show you facts and you throw back insults. Great logic. Finally, even if the enlisted man has the same degree as an officer does not mean he is the positional equal as that officer. It is the same as me saying that I'm the functional equal of a general because I have the same degrees as he does.

Sorry perhaps I need to type....more....slowly...for...you...to....underst and.

If .0000000001% of Enlisted were coming out with bachelors, then that means that they are still coming out with bachelors. ERGO, your lack of comprehension is part of the problem. The problem is that you assume that because people like myself or Aces are enlisted, that we dont have Bachelors Degrees and that is part of the problem too. You show me facts that are irrelevent to the arguement, so yes I am going to let you know exactly how ridiculous your condescending attitude is.

That said, I will explain to you the difference between you and the General. The General has risen through the ranks and probably has more on the job experience than you do. SO a CADET who has never served a day in uniform outside the classroom comes up to an enlisted man and treats him like dirt, what is your response...wait I forgot about the whole brick wall thing. So let me purpose this to you in your own language. If you as a butter bar walked up to an E-9 and talked to him like he was an E-1, what would you expect him to say to you? If you think that hes just going to talk to your supervisor after you are done, then I highly doubt you have ever worn a uniform.

[jstewa17]

You know what is funny in all this debate? I have yet to see one officer write on this board. It is all the "much smarter enlisted" vs the cadets. And if you ask me, which no one has but I'm going to tell you anyway, the cadets here are a lot more professional than the enlisted.


Just something to think about.

Oh, and I dare you to give ANY officer a middle finger salute. It would be very interesting to see what happened. At the same time, I would love to see a cadet tell an enlisted Soldier to salute him/her based on cadet rank. If that cadet takes him/herself that seriously they probably won't make it through the entire program.

[LOAL-D]

You know what is funny in all this debate? I have yet to see one officer write on this board. It is all the "much smarter enlisted" vs the cadets. And if you ask me, which no one has but I'm going to tell you anyway, the cadets here are a lot more professional than the enlisted.


Just something to think about.

Oh, and I dare you to give ANY officer a middle finger salute. It would be very interesting to see what happened. At the same time, I would love to see a cadet tell an enlisted Soldier to salute him/her based on cadet rank. If that cadet takes him/herself that seriously they probably won't make it through the entire program.



Uhm, there are some officers writing on this board. But not too many cadets, :) good luck to you

[Variable Wind]

You know what is funny in all this debate? I have yet to see one officer write on this board. It is all the "much smarter enlisted" vs the cadets. And if you ask me, which no one has but I'm going to tell you anyway, the cadets here are a lot more professional than the enlisted.


Just something to think about.

Oh, and I dare you to give ANY officer a middle finger salute. It would be very interesting to see what happened. At the same time, I would love to see a cadet tell an enlisted Soldier to salute him/her based on cadet rank. If that cadet takes him/herself that seriously they probably won't make it through the entire program.

Just curious as to whether you actually READ this thread or not...???

[acesfilter]

You know what is funny in all this debate? I have yet to see one officer write on this board. It is all the "much smarter enlisted" vs the cadets. And if you ask me, which no one has but I'm going to tell you anyway, the cadets here are a lot more professional than the enlisted.

Brilliant assumption, recruit. Too bad I never revealed my rank on this forum. If you only knew. ;)


Oh, and I dare you to give ANY officer a middle finger salute. It would be very interesting to see what happened. At the same time, I would love to see a cadet tell an enlisted Soldier to salute him/her based on cadet rank. If that cadet takes him/herself that seriously they probably won't make it through the entire program.

He didn't flick off an officer. He flicked off a couple of self absorbed cadets who wouldn't even pass for "officer-lite". They are officers in training and therefore--hold no authority over enlisted what so ever. Thanks for playing. :cool:

[ringjamesa]

and they still aren't. only 5% of the enlisted have completed a bachelors versus 100% of the officers. Now how is that of equal educational background?

Actually, you are just using AF stats...Not all commissioned officers have degrees. Little known fact, until say 10 years ago or so, the AF didn't even require a Bachelor's degree for all officers-they made exceptions for some nurses. So....long story short, both of your #s are probably high. There is probably less than 100% of all officers that have a degree and probably less than 5% of all Enlisted that have a degree (don't have the stats for the Dept of the Army or Dept of the Navy so that is just a guess...).

[acesfilter]

Actually, you are just using AF stats...Not all commissioned officers have degrees. Little known fact, until say 10 years ago or so, the AF didn't even require a Bachelor's degree for all officers-they made exceptions for some nurses. So....long story short, both of your #s are probably high. There is probably less than 100% of all officers that have a degree and probably less than 5% of all Enlisted that have a degree (don't have the stats for the Dept of the Army or Dept of the Navy so that is just a guess...).

JGFGI. :D ;)

[Variable Wind]

It doesnt matter you guys. Officers are always smarter than Enlisted...its science.

[Shrike]

It doesnt matter you guys. Officers are always smarter than Enlisted...its science.

I thought it was genetic. Everyone knows that officers come from the blue-blood, landed gentry, and enlisted from the working-class dregs of society.


Oh, wait, I'm thinking of the military of 75+ years ago. I should drag myself kicking and screaming into the late 20th century, then give myself a little boost straight into the 21st century.

[Variable Wind]

I thought it was genetic. Everyone knows that officers come from the blue-blood, landed gentry, and enlisted from the working-class dregs of society.


Oh, wait, I'm thinking of the military of 75+ years ago. I should drag myself kicking and screaming into the late 20th century, then give myself a little boost straight into the 21st century.

No wait, this must be the year 39,000 when the gene-seed of the proginators is implanted on a chosen few commanders for each space marine chapter in service to the all seeing God-Emporer.

[LOAL-D]

I thought it was genetic. Everyone knows that officers come from the blue-blood, landed gentry, and enlisted from the working-class dregs of society.


Oh, wait, I'm thinking of the military of 75+ years ago. I should drag myself kicking and screaming into the late 20th century, then give myself a little boost straight into the 21st century.


You must have missed that thread where the guy was talking about officers being nobles, and the enlisted peasants, although I think he spelled it “pheasants” Einstein Alert!!!!

[Variable Wind]

You must have missed that thread where the guy was talking about officers being nobles, and the enlisted peasants, although I think he spelled it “pheasants” Einstein Alert!!!!

Oh yeah, I remember that guy...but I was the one who accidentally referred to a small game bird. :eek:

[LOAL-D]

Oh yeah, I remember that guy...but I was the one who accidentally referred to a small game bird. :eek:


Ha ha, Funny nonetheless

:D

[acesfilter]

You must have missed that thread where the guy was talking about officers being nobles, and the enlisted peasants, although I think he spelled it “pheasants” Einstein Alert!!!!

Noble blood...hahaha! That was epically classic!

Hey...what if it's the same guy? dun dun dun

[ringjamesa]

This is an open forum. As such, we are all with equal voices on this forum.

Found this relavant

[Shrike]

You must have missed that thread where the guy was talking about officers being nobles, and the enlisted peasants, although I think he spelled it “pheasants” Einstein Alert!!!!

Nope, I saw that one. He was getting such a drubbing from everyone else that I refrained from joining in for fear of getting a 15-yard penalty for piling on. :D

[light_scout]

Actually, you are just using AF stats...Not all commissioned officers have degrees. Little known fact, until say 10 years ago or so, the AF didn't even require a Bachelor's degree for all officers-they made exceptions for some nurses. So....long story short, both of your #s are probably high. There is probably less than 100% of all officers that have a degree and probably less than 5% of all Enlisted that have a degree (don't have the stats for the Dept of the Army or Dept of the Navy so that is just a guess...).

You are correct, I know in the Army if you go OCS you only need 90 semester hours, then you have three years I believe it is to complete your degree in order to get promoted to Captain. It really is a moot point; Officers for the most part do have degrees, enlisted do not. Before you jump on me, yes I researched it in the Army, I am a Senior Enlisted Soldier with a Masters Degree, for that degree I researched DA stats and I had access to an Infantry Brigade Combat Team (IBCT) to compile hands on research in order to complete my Masters. An IBCT is large enough to give you a very high confidence level for your data, and the raw data I collected and used basically followed DA stats that they release. All 100% of the officers I surveyed had degrees, but these were mainly all commanders and staff members. I do know a few officers who are in degree completion programs, but they were unavailable to fill out the survey, but the number is low enough not to skew the data. The majority of the field grade officers had graduate degrees. Enlisted, many had some college, especially at the NCO level; many also had completed an associate’s degree. At the bachelor degree level, the numbers were low, I'd have to refer to my paper but it was less than 5% if I recall correctly. At the master degree level, the number was less than 1%. I have never run across an enlisted soldier with a doctorate degree, but there is probably a few out there.

Of course, being an officer has more to do with their chosen career path, and the commission they receive rather than the education they have. At the undergraduate level, you should have a decent overview of general education subjects, and a decent grasp of your major. You should be able to read, write, and communicate effectively and have the critical thinking skills necessary to problem solve. However, that difference is not always a huge gap between enlisted and officers, and I have seen many officers and enlisted soldiers struggle with writing and arithmetic. So using education as the delineator between enlisted and officers really is a poor metric.

[Calmo70]

Let me try (and I emphasize “TRY”) to intelligently present some random thoughts on the enlisted versus officers debate. Regardless of the statistics on the number of enlisted folks with college degrees, the facts are that enlisted in today’s military are still more educated and aware on technical and political issues. The 24 hour news cycles (to include The Daily Show, etc.) and the internet provide even high school students a more thorough awareness of today’s issues. And certainly high schoolers are more advanced in technology than people were even 10/15 years ago. Accordingly, when those people join the military they are not going to simply accept shut up and color as legitimate and are going to rebel against authority – even in the military.
And, the military has to some extent not recognized that and are still trying to shape their officer corps as managers more than leaders. The primary extent of leadership training for the officer corps in my opinion is that of rank structure and authority, everything else is “management”. When you’re training primarily in management techniques and the emphasis on the leadership side is “authority”, yea you are going to end up having officers with some major ego problems.
Unfortunately, today’s military is still hungover from the corporate management mentality originally implemented during the McNamara days. The military should never have headed in that direction. We can never be nor should we ever be asked to mirror General Motors (Especially these days – lol).
Finally, let me say the two finest officers I ever served with/for were a 2Lt and a full Colonel. And I served with them both at the same time and when I was a Chief. One was out of ROTC (2LT) and one an AF Academy Grad (Colonel). They both never showed me anything but respect and both I pretty much would have done anything they asked of me. One side note on both them – neither were pilots (hmmmmmmm?).

[WILDJOKER5]

Let me try (and I emphasize “TRY”) to intelligently present some random thoughts on the enlisted versus officers debate. Regardless of the statistics on the number of enlisted folks with college degrees, the facts are that enlisted in today’s military are still more educated and aware on technical and political issues. The 24 hour news cycles (to include The Daily Show, etc.) and the internet provide even high school students a more thorough awareness of today’s issues. And certainly high schoolers are more advanced in technology than people were even 10/15 years ago. Accordingly, when those people join the military they are not going to simply accept shut up and color as legitimate and are going to rebel against authority – even in the military.
And, the military has to some extent not recognized that and are still trying to shape their officer corps as managers more than leaders. The primary extent of leadership training for the officer corps in my opinion is that of rank structure and authority, everything else is “management”. When you’re training primarily in management techniques and the emphasis on the leadership side is “authority”, yea you are going to end up having officers with some major ego problems.
Unfortunately, today’s military is still hungover from the corporate management mentality originally implemented during the McNamara days. The military should never have headed in that direction. We can never be nor should we ever be asked to mirror General Motors (Especially these days – lol).
Finally, let me say the two finest officers I ever served with/for were a 2Lt and a full Colonel. And I served with them both at the same time and when I was a Chief. One was out of ROTC (2LT) and one an AF Academy Grad (Colonel). They both never showed me anything but respect and both I pretty much would have done anything they asked of me. One side note on both them – neither were pilots (hmmmmmmm?).

I think it is the ego thing. Officers feel superior over enlisted. College degrees does not make you more educated than high school degree people. Yes, there are some high school people that are just plain smart and dont need to go to college to learn. College grads usually mean they could still get a passing grade even with a hang-over.

[Variable Wind]

I think it is the ego thing. Officers feel superior over enlisted. College degrees does not make you more educated than high school degree people. Yes, there are some high school people that are just plain smart and dont need to go to college to learn. College grads usually mean they could still get a passing grade even with a hang-over.

Granted, this does not apply to all officers. I have had a few good commanders (all pilots) who were all about equal respect for all the ranks. I think it is good to have a good repoire with the people you lead. I even had a butter bar fresh out of the citadel who did that and looked to SNCO's for advise even when the company commander was not...guess who actually did the better job.

College graduation certainly doesnt equal common sense, and it definitely doesnt mean you are the smartest cookie out there. College Degrees are a dime a dozen nowadays and the one thing that college taught me was that the only time that college actually presents a challenge is when you challenge your professors, otherwise most schools (I cannot speak for ivy league) are a cakewalk. I would like to see the Degrees that a lot of these officers graduate with. Phys Ed or Business? Yeah, give me a break.

[ringjamesa]

You must have missed that thread where the guy was talking about officers being nobles, and the enlisted peasants, although I think he spelled it “pheasants” Einstein Alert!!!!

For your viewing pleasure....

http://www.militarytimes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1568377&highlight=pheasants

[Featari]

Granted, this does not apply to all officers. I have had a few good commanders (all pilots) who were all about equal respect for all the ranks. I think it is good to have a good repoire with the people you lead. I even had a butter bar fresh out of the citadel who did that and looked to SNCO's for advise even when the company commander was not...guess who actually did the better job.

College graduation certainly doesnt equal common sense, and it definitely doesnt mean you are the smartest cookie out there. College Degrees are a dime a dozen nowadays and the one thing that college taught me was that the only time that college actually presents a challenge is when you challenge your professors, otherwise most schools (I cannot speak for ivy league) are a cakewalk. I would like to see the Degrees that a lot of these officers graduate with. Phys Ed or Business? Yeah, give me a break.

Alrighty, let me just say that I'm in the process of getting degrees in PoliSci (easy) and Russian (not easy) from UW-Madison. The level of difficulty really does depend on what you're majoring in...I plan on using my degrees as an Intel Officer, so in this case a degree is helpful to have. Many of the other cadets at my Det are majoring in critical foreign languages, most of them non-Romance. Calling our degrees "cakewalks" really isn't accurate.

Second of all, any cadet at my Det, from a 100 to an ECL, would be browbeaten into the ground for making an enlisted member salute them. Maybe it's just our cadre, but we know our place, make no mistake. We have the utmost respect for our SSgt and TSgt, and the few graduates I've continued to talk to carried that respect with them into Active Duty.

Looking at this thread, I feel as though some of you are expecting ROTC grads to waltz into their first assignment and disregard the opinion of the more experienced (enlisted) members there...if you meet a 2nd LT that does that, I think they're the exception, and I apologize to you for their conduct. We're not all 'bad seeds' :)

[JD2780]

Being in a careerfield that until now has never had constant officer leadership. I welcome the O's into our careerfield. Even LTs need a place to lead so why not give them something small like a smaller group of airmen with a couple NCOs in the mix to make sure he doesnt trip up to much. Oh wait that sounds like the same thing as at SQ level also. There is a CC that has a supt who helps and lets teh CC know whats going on with-in the unit. Before somebody here wets thier pants over this I AM ENLISTED!!! If you dont like officers then get out of the military. Not just the AF I mean all of it. If you dont like officer type positions then dont get a job on the outside when you get out. Its everywhere. Its called structure. I know its frustrating to be doing your job for 7 yrs deploy more time than you can count on one hand. Have more time overseas in the last 5 yrs than you do with your family. Then have some Capt or LT come in and try to reinvent the wheel when it worked fine before. Now to go along with the topic at head meaning ROTC. I think its a good program. I know there are some bad ones out there, so deal. It is supposed to teach leadership skills and instill core values. Now just like every other careerfield in the AF there are some that slip through. Well its up to all of us O's and E's to make sure those people dont progress or to steer them in the correct direction to make sure they finally do learn. Thats all. Now can all this whiney BS stop. All of this stuff is incredible embarassing.