Honor the NCO Corps by overhauling the rank structure

[Myyar]

Thanks for all the replies. I hope we can continue this conversation in a mature and constructive way. I don’t mean any disrespect towards the Officer corps.
I never said that it will be an easy or simple proposal, yes it will be complex and confusing for some but I truly believe that we have such a huge pool of smart and intelligent people in our military which can be used to work out all the details.

We can provide educational opportunities and resources to our enlisted men and women. Make changes in military school system and training courses to be able to acquire college credits. Put them on a track to finish at least about 60 - 90 college credits before they make their E-8 and bachelors degree before they make their E-9. We have the best trained, educated and professional NCO corps in the world, which our allies envy and our foes fear.

Officer corps alone won’t be able to help us make this change happen. We will need the help of each military branch’s civilian leadership, SEC DEF, Congress and the President.
Which means it will take many letters to Congressmen/ women and Senators. It will also require hundreds of hours of lobbying through various military lobbying groups.

The rank system we have in our military is more than hundred years old and I am sure it can be improved to better fit the needs of 21st century and future servicemen and women.
The change I am talking about may be new to our military but it is not new for many Armies, Navies and Air forces of the world including our allies.

Few examples are:

United Kingdom:
In the British Army and the Royal Marines the Regimental Sergeant Major (RSM) equivalent to E-9 in the United States holds the grade equal to Warrant Officer Class One and the Company Sergeant Major (CSM) equivalent to E-8 in the United States holds the grade equal to Warrant Officer Class Two. Warrant Officer Class One (WO1) is higher than Warrant Officer Class Two (WO2) in the British Military.

South Africa:
Same as the British Military.

Canadian Forces:
The Regimental Sergeant-Major (RSM) equivalent to E-9 in the United States is the senior appointment in a battalion-sized unit, including infantry battalions and artillery, armoured, engineer, and signal regiments. (RSM) holds the grade of Chief Warrant Officer (CWO). In company-sized units, the Company Sergeant-Major (CSM) equivalent to E-8 in the United States generally holds the grade of Master Warrant Officer (MWO). (CWO) is higher than (MWO) which is higher than Warrant Officer (WO) in the Canadian Forces.

Indian Military:
The Subedar Major (SM) equivalent to E-9 in the United States holds the grade of Junior Commissioned Officer he or she is also refer to as Honorary Captain . Although commissioned, they are senior enlisted men and women. A Battalion's single Subedar-Major assists the commander in much the same way as a Regimental Sergeant-Major would. Subedar equivalent to E-8 in the United States holds the grade of Junior Commissioned Officer he or she is also refer to as Honorary Lieutenant, this rank is equivalent to O-2 in the United States.

[Smeghead]

Originally Posted by Myyar

United Kingdom:
In the British Army and the Royal Marines the Regimental Sergeant Major (RSM) equivalent to E-9 in the United States holds the grade equal to Warrant Officer Class One and the Company Sergeant Major (CSM) equivalent to E-8 in the United States holds the grade equal to Warrant Officer Class Two. Warrant Officer Class One (WO1) is higher than Warrant Officer Class Two (WO2) in the British Military.

The RSM, WO1 and US E-9 are all enlisted OR-9s. US Forces' Warrants are not. Same goes for WO2, CSM and E-8s. They're not put in any special career progression path for making OR-8 and OR-9, an RSM=WO1=E-9. I see what you're trying to say, but it doesn't hold. Royal Army WO does not equal US Army WO.

[CrustySMSgt]

Originally Posted by Myyar

Few examples are:

United Kingdom:
In the British Army and the Royal Marines the Regimental Sergeant Major (RSM) equivalent to E-9 in the United States holds the grade equal to Warrant Officer Class One and the Company Sergeant Major (CSM) equivalent to E-8 in the United States holds the grade equal to Warrant Officer Class Two. Warrant Officer Class One (WO1) is higher than Warrant Officer Class Two (WO2) in the British Military.

South Africa:
Same as the British Military.

Canadian Forces:
The Regimental Sergeant-Major (RSM) equivalent to E-9 in the United States is the senior appointment in a battalion-sized unit, including infantry battalions and artillery, armoured, engineer, and signal regiments. (RSM) holds the grade of Chief Warrant Officer (CWO). In company-sized units, the Company Sergeant-Major (CSM) equivalent to E-8 in the United States generally holds the grade of Master Warrant Officer (MWO). (CWO) is higher than (MWO) which is higher than Warrant Officer (WO) in the Canadian Forces.

Now you're mixing apples & oranges... warrants don't outrank an O-1... so these examples do nothing to bolster your position.

Here in Japan Chief's eventually transition to WOs also... but that doesn't jump them above any of the Os. So changing the name from SMSgt or CMSgt to WO doesn't change the progression that got them there or the status they hold.

[smarg]

Every qualified Army enlisted person can apply for a Warrant or Commission.

[USMC_8156]

Or we could just stop handing over bars for college diplomas. What a joke that has been. You should choose at some point in your career if you are going to continue as a Sergeant and be a technical expert, or take on administrative leadership responsibilities and become a Lieutenant. Either way technical training or college education respectively should be mandatory. I think my way is simpler.

[Lone_NCO]

I would like a change in the rank structure. Never have even agreed with the process of officers at all. In fact the only thing I feel is right about is the diffuculty of there training at quantico. Even that is fairly lax though. My main issue is how does education equal leadership? There is book smart and street smart, school only requires one of the two. In addition you can say that getting your education shows determination. however there is no degree that teaches you what you need to know to be put in charge of hundreds of Marines lives after a few months of training. Nothing can replace time and experience, and I never thought putting a 1st or 2nd Lt in charge of a SSgt GySgt whos been in over 10yrs made any logical sense. Just how I feel, never know though I might go over to the dark side in my future.

[LeaderOfMarines]

Go mustangs!

[PAMICH]

I actually am favoring an idea of making enlisted structure (for pay purposes) from E-1 to E-12.
E-12 = MCPON, E-11=FLT/FORCM, E-10= CMDCM, E-9= MC, E-8= SC, E-7=C etc....

I also want to see typically two pay scales for each rank from E-5 to E-9. They could be listed as 2nd Class lower, and 2nd class upper or 1st class lower and 1st class upper. Ive always beem saddened by a hard charging 1st with 4 or 5 years making basically the same pay as a young 1st who just made it this cycle. Of course it's a tough sell because the upper and lower scales would need to be based on merit.

[Yggdrasil]

The only services that need to change their rank structure are the Army and Air Force. OJT for leadership is at the E5 level, because they were never NCO's when they were E4's; although there are extremely rare cases of Corporals in the Army, but the vast majority being Specialists.

The Air Force needs to move their ranks up one paygrade as well - Staff Sergeant at E5 and Master Sergeant at E7 confuses alot of people.

[Myyar]

I don’t mean any disrespect towards the Officer corps.
I never said that it will be an easy or simple proposal, yes it will be complex and confusing for some but I truly believe that we have such a huge pool of smart and intelligent people in our military which can be used to work out all the details.

We can provide educational opportunities and resources to our enlisted men and women. Make changes in military school system and training courses to be able to acquire college credits. Put them on a track to finish at least about 60 - 90 college credits before they make their E-8 and bachelors degree before they make their E-9. We have the best trained, educated and professional NCO corps in the world, which our allies envy and our foes fear.

Officer corps alone won’t be able to help us make this change happen. We will need the help of each military branch’s civilian leadership, SEC DEF, Congress and the President.
Which means it will take many letters to Congressmen/ women and Senators. It will also require hundreds of hours of lobbying through various military lobbying groups.

The rank system we have in our military is more than hundred years old and I am sure it can be improved to better fit the needs of 21st century and future servicemen and women.
The change I am talking about may be new to our military but it is not new for many Armies, Navies and Air forces of the world including our allies.

Few examples are:

United Kingdom:
In the British Army and the Royal Marines the Regimental Sergeant Major (RSM) equivalent to E-9 in the United States holds the grade equal to Warrant Officer Class One and the Company Sergeant Major (CSM) equivalent to E-8 in the United States holds the grade equal to Warrant Officer Class Two. Warrant Officer Class One (WO1) is higher than Warrant Officer Class Two (WO2) in the British Military.

South Africa:
Same as the British Military.

Canadian Forces:
The Regimental Sergeant-Major (RSM) equivalent to E-9 in the United States is the senior appointment in a battalion-sized unit, including infantry battalions and artillery, armoured, engineer, and signal regiments. (RSM) holds the grade of Chief Warrant Officer (CWO). In company-sized units, the Company Sergeant-Major (CSM) equivalent to E-8 in the United States generally holds the grade of Master Warrant Officer (MWO). (CWO) is higher than (MWO) which is higher than Warrant Officer (WO) in the Canadian Forces.

Indian Military:
The Subedar Major (SM) equivalent to E-9 in the United States holds the grade of Junior Commissioned Officer he or she is also refer to as Honorary Captain . Although commissioned, they are senior enlisted men and women. A Battalion's single Subedar-Major assists the commander in much the same way as a Regimental Sergeant-Major would. Subedar equivalent to E-8 in the United States holds the grade of Junior Commissioned Officer he or she is also refer to as Honorary Lieutenant, this rank is equivalent to O-2 in the United States.