Enlisted Professional Pay (College Degree Special Pay)

[Creaminess]

Originally Posted by MCGYVER

Creaminess, the reason I say it's a good idea is that in my experience (19 years) I've seen a lot of good Soldiers (Officer/NonComm/Enlisted) get out of the Army and most of them did so either because they had a degree and could make as good or better money on the outside or they got out to pursue education. For the ones that got out to make better money a program like this would have kept some of them in.
If a program keeps even half of the good Soldiers in then it's a good idea and essentially cost effective (compared to enlistment bonuses and some other stuff I've seen). It's also right to reward someone for putting in extra effort to better themselves. They gain skills that may or may not help them be a better leader but definitely don't hurt.
Just as a Soldier that puts in extra hours in the gym or on the track improves his P.T. score (promotion points) and increases his/her earning potential via accelerated promotion, Soldiers who sacrifice personal time and money (books aren't paid for) to better themselves deserve to be rewarded and make the overall Army more agile, adaptive, lethal, capable and responsive.

I understand your points, as well as those of others who have put in their say as well. And don't get me wrong: I'm all for higher education. I'm taking another class now and will have my bachelor's degree done sometime this coming spring. It's not like I'm saying this is a bad idea because I'm too lazy to take college or whatever. I will say that I wasted a lot of time earlier in my career on stupid stuff when I should have been working on my degree, so I'm now playing catch-up, but I'm doing it.

My number one concern is that if this type of program is in place, people will be doing this for the wrong reasons: the money. Yes, there are those in the military who CAN make more money on the outside than in the military due to their degrees, specialized training, or other reasons. I would certainly hope, though, that people aren't putting money as their first reason to serve in the military. Yes, we need to provide for our families, and I certainly will never turn down a paycheck. But if a person has money dangled in front of him for taking college courses, will he neglect his military duties in search of the almighty dollar?

There are already educational incentives in the Army. You get tuition assistance of $4500 per fiscal year. You may have to pay for books (I don't; my college includes the cost of books in the tuition) or may have some other small costs associated with your courses, but I think being given $4500 a year in free college money PLUS your GI Bill when you retire is pretty good incentive already. If you're not taking advantage of that tuition assistance every year, you're throwing away free money. Sure, there are some restrictions to using TA, like you can only earn one degree of each type (associates, bachelors, masters) using TA, but that's a small sacrifice for what you get for it. When I initially joined the Army, TA did not cover 100% of your course costs, so I had to pay out of pocket for part of the expenses and also the books.

Let's not forget that we also get educational incentives in the form of being able to take CLEP tests for free, when others in the civilian world pay for them. Don't know the cost right now, but I believe they were $60 each at one time whether you passed or not.

I'm sure there are plenty of other examples I can give of the educational incentives we already have. Of course, for those trying to make SGT and SSG, there are extra benefits in the form of promotion points. Get promoted=make more money. That's one of the reasons I'm trying to get my degree done before my next board...I may make the next rank without the degree, but I'd rather have that on my record just in case it puts me over the top. And of course, it'll help me when I retire.

So while I absolutely agree that higher education is important, I do not automatically equate higher education with better leadership and, thus, being worthy of more pay. I'd rather work for somebody who's competent and doesn't have any college than somebody with a degree who isn't competent.

[CrimLaw]

Good arguments for both sides. I believe most police get extra money the higher the degree they have. I know that I could definitely make more money in the civvie world with my degree and certification, than I do now in the Army. I would get out, but I don't feel like paying for healthcare or worrying about losing a job.

[Creaminess]

Originally Posted by CrimLaw

Good arguments for both sides. I believe most police get extra money the higher the degree they have. I know that I could definitely make more money in the civvie world with my degree and certification, than I do now in the Army. I would get out, but I don't feel like paying for healthcare or worrying about losing a job.

When I was going to get out about 10 years ago, I looked at a few different states' requirements to be a cop (I'm not an MP but was going to go into law enforcement). My home state required a bachelor's degree in certain majors in order to qualify for the highway patrol. Never talked to any of the local police departments about their qualifications. I also talked looked into it in Texas, where I was stationed at that time, and their state patrol entry requirements were lower, but I believe you're correct in that your pay varied based on the amount of education you have. I'm certain other states probably have the same type of systems to determine pay for their police.

[DANOOK]

I think some of you are missing the point, the question was asking about incentives for Enlisted because of the pay gap with Officers, would it be nice yes. The pay gap between Officers and Enlisted are huge and a big reason for the intial gap is college education. Most Enlisted come in without a degree so they are relagated to the lower pay scale so why not reward them when they get that degree with a little something extra? When can't argue the free TA and other educational benifits for the Enlisted because those benifits are also availble to Officers.

[chucksnee]

Originally Posted by DANOOK

When can't argue the free TA and other educational benifits for the Enlisted because those benifits are also availble to Officers.

Everything except, that when an officer uses TA he has to add months or years to his service agreement....Does not work that way for enlisted....

[KingOfBattle]

Okay, here is some more points to this argument. There are alot of other duties out there that entitle enlisted soldiers to extra incentive pay. Recruiters make $450 a month while on recruiting duty. Drill Sergeants make $375 extra a month. Airborne troops make $150 a month as well as EOD who make the same. These payments are due to additional qualifications that these soldiers have. Why would a monetary compensation for those who have an addtional qualification that not everyone has not be entitled to a little extra pay? Your thoughts?

[Creaminess]

Originally Posted by KingOfBattle

Okay, here is some more points to this argument. There are alot of other duties out there that entitle enlisted soldiers to extra incentive pay. Recruiters make $450 a month while on recruiting duty. Drill Sergeants make $375 extra a month. Airborne troops make $150 a month as well as EOD who make the same. These payments are due to additional qualifications that these soldiers have. Why would a monetary compensation for those who have an addtional qualification that not everyone has not be entitled to a little extra pay? Your thoughts?

Recruiters, drill sergeants, and airborne-qualified personnel on jump status and actively jumping not only have those qualifications, but the additional pay is for directly using those qualifications. How can you tell say that somebody who has a college degree is directly "using" that degree? I've seen a new 2LT out of West Point who had a degree in "psychological engineering" (whatever that is) but was in a combat service support MOS and not doing anything remotely related to her degree. Though I don't know what that degree entails, I DO know that the job she was holding, as well as her branch, was nothing related to psychology or engineering. How can you measure that somebody with a degree is "using" it more than somebody with little or no college? There's simply no way to quantify that. There IS, however, a way to know whether somebody getting paid duty assignment pay for recruiting is actually recruiting.

[Creaminess]

Originally Posted by chucksnee

Everything except, that when an officer uses TA he has to add months or years to his service agreement....Does not work that way for enlisted....

That is true.

On the flip side, officers have available to them programs that will pay for advanced civil schooling. For every day they're in school, they owe the Army three days upon completion of their program. I would love to see that offered on the enlisted side.

[Creaminess]

Originally Posted by DANOOK

I think some of you are missing the point, the question was asking about incentives for Enlisted because of the pay gap with Officers, would it be nice yes. The pay gap between Officers and Enlisted are huge and a big reason for the intial gap is college education. Most Enlisted come in without a degree so they are relagated to the lower pay scale so why not reward them when they get that degree with a little something extra? When can't argue the free TA and other educational benifits for the Enlisted because those benifits are also availble to Officers.

Many officers who come in with degrees either got their degree paid for by the military in exchange for an agreement to serve (USMA, ROTC, etc.) or, in some cases, came in under the student loan repayment program, a program which is also offered to enlisted. So while the officer pay may be higher, they often have a requirement to serve a set amount of time to "work off" that scholarship or the agreement that the Army will repay that loan.

Speaking of the loan repayment program, I was thinking about that on the way home last night. I know a couple of enlisted Soldiers who came in under this program. The Army was paying off their student loans, so while it wasn't directly adding money into their paychecks, by default it WAS increasing their pay by decreasing the amount of money they had to pay each month, specifically by paying off the loans for those Soldiers. I don't know what their monthly loan payments were, but I know they were not paying them under that program; the Army was footing that bill and effectively increasing that Soldier's take-home pay.

I recently saw that now all individuals submitting OCS packets must already have a 4-year degree, where in the past the requirement was for them to complete their degree, if they didn't already have one, by a certain point in their careers. So, from here on out, officers must ALREADY have a degree to become an officer (doesn't apply to warrants), whereas that requirement doesn't exist for enlisted.

I would argue that enlisted Soldiers who come into the Army with a degree DO get some benefits not offered to those who don't have a degree upon enlistment by virtue of coming into the Army at a higher rank. Individuals joining the Army with a 4-year degree can come into the Army as a Specialist. Yes, there is undeniably a pay gap between a Specialist and a 2LT, but that Specialist has the opportunity to come in as an officer since he/she has completed a 4-year degree already. If that Soldier makes a choice not to come in as an officer, why should he/she be paid like one? Certainly there is more responsibilty and a higher expectation of a 2LT than a Specialist, although I know plenty of Specialists who are way more competent than 2LTs. Then again, some Specialists have been in the Army a couple of years already by the time they attain that rank, where it doesn't take 2 years to make 2LT.

If you want to be paid like an officer, then come in as an officer or work your way toward that goal. If you're not willing to accept the additional responsibility that comes with being an officer, then don't complain that you make less than an officer does. Only YOU control your career and the choices you make.

[chucksnee]

Originally Posted by Creaminess

That is true.

On the flip side, officers have available to them programs that will pay for advanced civil schooling. For every day they're in school, they owe the Army three days upon completion of their program. I would love to see that offered on the enlisted side.

Read CH. 4

http://www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/r621_1.pdf

We do have the ability, to get our degree but you must be a Senior NCO and have enough time left to give back to the military....

Do we have all the programs the Officers do....nope not at all....but I've shown a lot of NCO's this document and they have never seen it...they always say "I though it was for Officers only".

THe other problem would be geting yuor CoC to let an enlisted go for a year+....